not some dudes who got bullied by Japanese
#history
thorny patio
Yo remember when macarthur said "nuke em'"
shut wren
not some dudes who got bullied by Japanese
Not very good times
lime belfry
overall the experience the PLA learned in Korea would be transfered to Indochina
shut wren
Yo remember when macarthur said "nuke em'"
"You're Fired"
thorny patio
Oh come oooon
lime belfry
McArthur is just crazy
shut wren
You're fired!
lime belfry
people called him based but he gonna be the guy that killed the world
shut wren
yea
lime belfry
if he was the one to make the call
shut wren
overall the experience the PLA learned in Korea would be transfered to Indochina
We did decently well in Nam
lime belfry
we as in Chinese or American ?
eternal veldt
McCunter should have been shot for his incompetence in 1941.
shut wren
China
lime belfry
yeah China did decent in Vietnam
shut wren
McCunter should have been shot for his incompetence in 1941.
Homie escaped from philie
thorny patio
In all fairness, when has a WW2 commander NOT risked the fate of humanity?
shut wren
wait what vietnam tho
post
lime belfry
the vietnam pre 1954
oh
yeah u guys did decent
although it arguable who won that war
shut wren
when vietnam yeeted shit at China
lime belfry
maybe both sides won
shut wren
then we yeeted shit back
thorny patio
I mean, we all think about us vs Russia or China... But then theirs India v Pakistan or India v china
lime belfry
see, the thing I dont understand about the 1979 war is how vague the objective is
thorny patio
They got nukes to and hate eachother
lime belfry
if china attacked to teach Vietnam a lesson
and to stop Vietnam expansionism
then they kinda failed because Khmer Rouge eventually died
shut wren
To be fair they were shooting our mfs
lime belfry
but if it purely to weaken Vietnam and to scare the Soviet
then technically it worked
shut wren
The Gulf war told the PLA to modernize
lime belfry
To be fair they were shooting our mfs
technically we were throwing rocks at each other
shut wren
technically we were throwing rocks at each other
that was india and china
thorny patio
Vietnam doesn't have beef with China does it?
lime belfry
a little bit but not too much
I mean we did beat the crap out in the 79
and 80s
then China won a naval battle against some dudes with AK
shut wren
we yeeted alot of shit at vietnam
shut wren
the Indian airforce drops planes all the time
mfs be flying and they falling out the air
shut wren
I believe China 75% vietnam 25%
lime belfry
maybe 60% and 40%
because what made it became bad was anti chinese sentiment
but many people argued it the right move (no racism intended)
shut wren
ik
lime belfry
but the leader of Vietnam wanted to get rid of chinese influence
shut wren
new government
lime belfry
so he just straight up told chinese vietnamese to get the fuck out
and he did
which many Vietnamese even today thoguht it was right
shut wren
I dont get those mfs who choose to go to vietnam
lime belfry
because you dont want a foreigner to control/influence the economy
I mean, let be real, u guys are everywhere
it happens
lime belfry
so I mean China got their goal
scared the crap out of Vietnam
and weaken it to the point it no longer the powerhouse as it was in the 70s
but Vietnam also defeated the Cambodian and installed their own pro Vietnam goverment there
they also got most of the land back
except the island cus we didnt have a navt
shut wren
Didn't we give Vietnam 40% of our J-7s off the production Line?
shut wren
except the island cus we didnt have a navt
there was this time that a viet gun boat got yeeted by a DDG
well a smol one
lime belfry
we dont have J-7
shut wren
damn think i got the wrong country
lime belfry
yeah we dont have that many chinese aircrafts
we got the J-6 and that was it
I think it kinda funny when you thought about it
shut wren
Ikr
lime belfry
but the Vietnamese in late 70s was more well armed than the Chinese
shut wren
but Now
lime belfry
the CHinese gave all the AK to Vietnam
shut wren
Very different
lime belfry
yeah
but it just weird
like China supplied Vietnam better than their own men
in 79 the Chinese were like 80% SKS/Type 63
shut wren
We should have never done that
lime belfry
and a platoon with 1 RPG
meanwhile your average Vietnamese militia got fully automatic assualt rifle
and RPG for every squad
shut wren
now we got everyone with 2 RPG style thingy
lime belfry
all thanks to China
not to mention
same uniform
camo that China didnt have but China themselves produced for Vietnam
shut wren
Yep
lime belfry
and ration China produced for Vietanm but not their own men
it just a weird mindset of supply
shut wren
yea that felt stupid
lime belfry
I understand how China got salty that after all those shit u guys gave
we turned our back against u guys
but then it just average politics
shut wren
yep
lime belfry
no one is friend
shut wren
Didn't we level a city with rockets n shit
lime belfry
yeah
shut wren
and blew up a bunch of factories
lime belfry
the one next to the border
then u guys got stuck in the French Maginot Line of Indochina
full of bunkers and underground tunnels
lime belfry
well... the French learned
they had no gap this time
but honestly, maybe if the war lasted longer
u can overrun it
shut wren
we put Bunker busters on rockets n shit now
lime belfry
it a pretty old line
yeah but not in the 70s
shit was crazy
I saw image of Vietnamese and Chinese fighting in giant caves
Iwo Jima on steroid
and the French went full autistic with those caves
they built bunkers inside caves
shut wren
Lets hope no Sino-Viet war 2023
eternal veldt
Be careful with that a word.
lime belfry
besides
shut wren
sorry
shut wren
HMMM
lime belfry
the power to let the others fear u without ever needing to invade
why goes to war now ?
and lose that advantage
frigid karma
He’s in ny
shut wren
NY
frigid karma
Lol
shut wren
its 11 am lol
shut wren
they dont let mfs use discord in china
lime belfry
VPN
shut wren
but im in the US
thorny patio
I'm texan
thorny patio
So guns guns guns bacon and yehaws
shut wren
Murica
thorny patio
It's funny how when most people think of America, it's the stereotypical Texan they think of
lime belfry
nah it the Alabama
thorny patio
Bro we ain't all cousin nuzzlers
lime belfry
Bro we ain't all cousin nuzzlers
but it the stereotypical living in the middle of nowhere in the desert
probably has an SUV or towed truck
wear a cowboy hat
own a million guns
have a sexy, smoking hot sister that always show her belly for some reasons
also happens to have the heaviest Texan accent
ornate wind
I must have missed the context but how is this history related
frigid karma
don't you guys have separate stereotypes for californians and new yorkers
lime belfry
nah
frigid karma
I must have missed the context but how is this history related
discussing the historiography of american stereotypes, duh
lime belfry
I would love to go to California, down to San Diego
to visit the museum ships tho
never seen a warship in my life
technically carriers are bigger than Titanic
so it must have been awesome to look at one up close
frigid karma
midway's definitely worth a visit
you cannot appreciate how large a CV is until you see one in person, no matter how many models or games you play
lime belfry
feat of human engineering
it almost ironic how some of the greatest things we built was either to kill each other
or to have a dick measurement against the others we hate
ornate wind
I mean I think you’re under appreciating a lot of other things we’ve come up with
lime belfry
yeah
frigid karma
it almost ironic how some of the greatest things we built was either to kill eac...
war drives necessity and invention
spiral cedar
war drives necessity and invention
It doesn’t
lime belfry
but think about it
we went from "OMG this thing can fly in 15 second. we are famous, brother"
spiral cedar
It just diverts innovation toward war related tech instead of tech that improves QoL
frigid karma
ok, lemme rephrase that
lime belfry
to "Haha I just shot downed my 70 planes" in the span of less than a decade
human learned to fly in 1911 and learned how to kill each other while flying in 1915
fast, aint it
spiral cedar
1903 was first flight
frigid karma
it drives a lot of war-related innovation that seems extremely impressive on a large scale
lime belfry
1903 was first flight
yeah but the plane barely fly
frigid karma
like, for example, the CVs
you can also argue that their power projection saves lives
lime belfry
I mean it can but like a few sec
ornate wind
It just diverts innovation toward war related tech instead of tech that improves...
Yeah but a lot of military technology becomes repurposed to civilians. From the invention of the stirrup, to niter and it’s use in fertilizer, to radar and satellite technology
frigid karma
Yeah but a lot of military technology becomes repurposed to civilians. From the ...
not really a unique argument
you don't need war to drive civilian innovation
spiral cedar
Yeah but a lot of military technology becomes repurposed to civilians. From the ...
And lots of civilian tech can be used in military purposes
frigid karma
regular free market forces also do that
and arguably at a quicker rate, since government bureaucracy is less involved
spiral cedar
But the question is whether there would have been more had that money not been spent for war
And the answer tends to be yes
ornate wind
Well I’d argue that the concept of a free market is a relatively new implementation in the history of human innovation
frigid karma
in a state of cold war
spiral cedar
It’s easy to point to the techs that did arise, hard to imagine the ones that didn’t
frigid karma
Well I’d argue that the concept of a free market is a relatively new implementat...
adam smith has been around for a long time
ornate wind
Humans have been around for a long time
frigid karma
humans have been warring for a fucking long time
and the majority of human civilizational development, i would argue, like the industrial revoltuion, happened with the aid of market competition
rather than just killing each other
lime belfry
as long as there are 2 people on earth
humble mulch
I feel while a free market helps innovation and shit, its not needed for there to be decently well off and "advanced" societies and nations
frigid karma
otherwise china would have its empire on mars now with the amount of wars being fought
lime belfry
someone would want the other dead
frigid karma
spiral cedar
I do think it’s interesting how the Inca built a successful trade empire, well-organized society, and significant architectural projects without using a system of money
humble mulch
Yeah
frigid karma
power of knotting
lime belfry
money is overrated
frigid karma
lime belfry
gold is the way
ornate wind
Or writing
spiral cedar
That too
frigid karma
That reminds me of an old video about americapox by cgp grey
humble mulch
fables of Atlantis
Rome was a thing as was the umm Carthaginians
eternal veldt
Trade is actually quite important to innovations and inventions
The compass being one I can think of.
spiral cedar
A lot of stuff that we consider to be “just how people are” really is just the result of growing up in systems where that’s the norm
frigid karma
basically, the thesis is Americas have no farm animals = no domestic plagues = lack of americapox = they get wiped out by europeans and the europeans aren't counterinfected
lime belfry
a counter point to war being the drive to speed up innovation is the gunpowder
technically, Chinese invented it
but it was the European that master it
humble mulch
it took gunpowder several hundred years to like
spiral cedar
War drives war-related innovation at the cost of other forms
frigid karma
because gunpowder to the chinese wasn't useful for war
lime belfry
but Chinese fought wayyyyy more than European
humble mulch
do shit
lime belfry
so what the catch here
frigid karma
giant ass gun works well against european fort
not mongol horse riders
who will flank your guns in seconds and run you over
spiral cedar
but Chinese fought wayyyyy more than European
That depends on the era honestly
lime belfry
giant ass gun works well against european fort
work great against men in arms
your armor got pen by farmers
frigid karma
but again
spiral cedar
I don’t think it’s true that China in the early gunpowder era was fighting more wars than Europe was
humble mulch
took gunpowder about 400 years to get into a canon
ornate wind
China had its slew of problems that certainly didn’t help
frigid karma
arguably the moment when china fell behind europe was when they refused to do overseas expansion
lime belfry
took gunpowder about 400 years to get into a canon
yeah but they also used as early version of grenades
early version of a shotgun
frigid karma
age of exploration shit allowed europe to get ahead
lime belfry
and super super early version of a flamethrower
frigid karma
while china just listened to its boomers and deleted its fleet
spiral cedar
China’s bigger problem imo was lack of easily accessible coal to power industrialization
lime belfry
wdym ? just grab that of your vassal
ornate wind
They did technically get to mass production first
frigid karma
China’s bigger problem imo was lack of easily accessible coal to power industria...
yes, but that problem could've been solved if you started colonizing
spiral cedar
There’s been work written on the subject of why China, possessing a well-developed central bureaucracy and strong economy, didn’t industrialize while Europe did
And lack of easy coal access is probably a major part
lime belfry
maybe it the British fault
do u really need coal when u get metric tons of wood and oil tho
humble mulch
yes
lime belfry
and Chinese have been burning oil for a long time
ornate wind
Not necessarily, I think the renaissance played a part in setting the foundations to European dominance
humble mulch
like look at history
spiral cedar
There’s also other factors at play, of course—some have blamed a conservative government outlook that downplayed the idea of science as a way to improve quality of life (thinking instead that cultural refinement was what improved lives)
lime belfry
maybe it just Britain being special
ornate wind
It’s not unique to Britain
lime belfry
an island that just so happened to be very hard to invade
had a pretty big chunk navy
eternal veldt
Complacency is also not helping the Chinese government, if we are looking specifically at Qing.
humble mulch
literally everyone with coal hopped on the band wagon
spiral cedar
Britain had a lot of the geographic features to take advantage of the industrial revolution first, that’s probably true
humble mulch
and china got fucked hard
eternal veldt
After the three "good rulings" of 3 Qing Emperors.
lime belfry
Britain also got motivated because its nearest neighbor had beef with it for centuries
spiral cedar
Easy coal access, innovation culture, expansive trade networks, low military budgets due to water defenses
lime belfry
so it even more motivated for them to just go to the sea
maiden citrus
just use chocolate
lime belfry
and discovered shit
ornate wind
That being said the Romans invented steam engines way back when
But they didn’t use them because slaves go brrrrrr
lime belfry
why did Muslim nations lagged behind tho
eternal veldt
Having the overseas territory of Jamaica is likely also very helpful
spiral cedar
Well, a steam driven curiosity more than a steam engine imo
lime belfry
they were ok for up until 15th century
and then shit just fell apart
they were ultra rich back then
eternal veldt
It, if I recall, was more valuable than the entire 13 colonies combined.
lime belfry
Having the overseas territory of Jamaica is likely also very helpful
thought it was iNDIA that was the bigger haul
spiral cedar
Industrial Revolution isn’t just boiling water to turn something, you need the entire industries and economies in place for it
ornate wind
Well the Ottoman Empire did draw the ire of practically the entirety of Europe
spiral cedar
And Rome just didn’t have it at the time
eternal veldt
The British Raj acquisition is well into the Industrial Revolution
spiral cedar
Which is why China not doing so is more of an issue
lime belfry
The British Raj acquisition is well into the Industrial Revolution
they had been trading before hand
eternal veldt
Even Jamaica is quite late, if I recall
lime belfry
India is just perfect for trading
remote monolith
why did Muslim nations lagged behind tho
they were still competitive with Europe even into the 18th century, it wasn't into the 19th that countries like the Qing, the Ottomans and Mughals were decisively behind Europe
eternal veldt
Sure, but Jamaica is a full up sugar colony
lime belfry
I dont think by 18th century they were competitive to European
eternal veldt
Without industrial machinery, sugar fetches an extremely high price with torturous working conditions
lime belfry
they had lagged behind in tech before hands
like ok if u count Balkan then sure they were on par with europe
but not the top dog
spiral cedar
Ottomans were pretty major for a good long while
remote monolith
they still do. Peter the Great lost his one engagement with the Ottomans at Pruth and it wasn't until Napoleon that European countries started to kick it around
eternal veldt
Hence why the British were extremely alarmed when France attempted to take Jamaica in conjunction with the US Independence war
humble mulch
Ottomans were literally still seen as a major power going into the 20th century
eternal veldt
And the subsequent Battle of the Saintes
lime belfry
a dying empire one can say
ornate wind
Yeah, just a series of poor decisions and circumstances
remote monolith
saying that everything after the 15th century is bad for Muslim countries like the Ottomans is pretty disingenuous considering their greatest achievements were made in the next century, and for the next 150 years they were contending with most of Europe comfortably
frigid karma
and even in a modern context
like
saudi arabia
qatar
even though they're run by slaves, they're doing fine
lime belfry
oil princes in AL
Speaking of nations no longer powerful
what happened to Spain and Portugeese
got comfy and then lost the race to Brit and French
frigid karma
Decolonialized
ornate wind
Weak
lime belfry
Spain owned the ocean before the Brit
ornate wind
Spain was also pretty backwards compared to the future major european powers
remote monolith
it had too many territories everywhere to defend and relied on hard commodities like gold to prop up its economy
humble mulch
Spain lost their colonies after the UK did and didnt have others to fall back on like the UK did, most likely same with Portugeese along with other internal and European factors
ornate wind
The whole Brazil fiasco
remote monolith
between 1500 to around the 1700s it was basically Spain warring against England, France, assorted German-Italian states, the Netherlands and the Ottomans almost continuously
frigid karma
Spain lost their colonies after the UK did and didnt have others to fall back on...
After?
What about all the early SA revolutions of the 19th century
ornate wind
But I think the bigger factor was the rise of nationalism
remote monolith
that kind of continuous conflict would be ruinous to any states
humble mulch
Qwerty
ornate wind
Which I don’t think is talked about enough
humble mulch
UK lost the US in 1780s
frigid karma
And the Uk still had a sizable colonial empire
frigid karma
Lasting to the 40s
humble mulch
Spain had nothing to fall back on
eternal veldt
Spain was also in the middle of some internal conflicts in the mid-19th century, I'd think then is where things started going down
frigid karma
Whereas I don’t think Spain had shit after 1800s
humble mulch
they lost it all
eternal veldt
First you had the war of Spanish succession
remote monolith
also it didn't help that the Spanish Habsburg branch was... messed in the head
eternal veldt
Followed by the Iberian Peninsula campaign
remote monolith
resulting in wonders like Charles II
frigid karma
GB had a sizable empire until the mid 40s, whereas Spain was fucked after early 1800s
humble mulch
Qwerty I know
frigid karma
I don’t think it’s fair to say Spain decolonized AFTER gb
spiral cedar
Britain was better at Spain and Portugal at their own game, pretty much
frigid karma
Unless you’re solely talking about the us
humble mulch
Literally one of the first major colonies lost and caused a total shit show world wide cause of the ideas it caused
frigid karma
the British loss of the Americas was not as devastating to its empire as the Spanish loss of the Americas was
in part because britain also didn't get napoleon riding up into its borders
remote monolith
so basically, Spain lagged behind through a lot of factors both internal and external. Its economical system lagged behind other countries because due to its colonial possession it came to rely on silver and gold to finance expenditures, which was immense due to the need to garrison plenty of territories against multiple other empires, it faced almost regular rebellions even in Spain itself due to several reasons such as religious matters, and a gradually degrading quality of their rulers
eternal veldt
France kinda wanted to, until they fucked up at Trafalgar.
And what a surprise, it involves a massive, complex battle plan.
spiral cedar
Britain losing the 13 colonies didn’t cost them their markets; the US remained one of the biggest trade partners
Not true of Spain’s losses
eternal veldt
Multiple squadrons, sent on a wild goose chase baiting Nelson.
frigid karma
speaking of colonization, i actually have a fairly big complaint about how people view belgian colonization
remote monolith
remember that Portugal was part of Spain for a good half century or so, and they always had a smaller slice then other European states, which makes it inevitable that they couldn't pick themselves up once they got their freedom back
frigid karma
it's typically viewed as highly brutal, but i think the belgians were actually quite nice for european colonization of the Africas
they took a very "hands-off"approach
remote monolith
should be noted too though that in turn no singular European states bar France was able to contend with Spain one on one in its Zenith though, as France lost badly in Italy and the counter-armada failed catastrophically
the Netherlands was able to break off because Spain already had problems everywhere and they were not paying their soldiers in the Netherlands causing a lot of them to go rogue
plus Wilhelm of Orange had ample suport from Spains enemies
frigid karma
If the dutch are so obssessed with orange, why didn't it make it onto their flags?
orange, blue, and white would be so much more unique than the all-too-common blue+red+white combination
frigid karma
isn't that the unofficial flag or something
eternal veldt
Its the literal Prinsenflag, considered to the the first official flag of the Netherlands
remote monolith
the modern flag is red, but historically the prince's flag was favored
frigid karma
then why was it changed to red
remote monolith
there was a period where the Netherlands tried dissociating from the house of Orange and picked red for its flags
and that change stuck around
eternal veldt
Ngl, I have to thank ETW for enlightening me
eternal veldt
it had too many territories everywhere to defend and relied on hard commodities ...
Piet Hein: Mine for the taking
lime belfry
it's typically viewed as highly brutal, but i think the belgians were actually q...
Belgian was no match for French in term of colonization brutality
Cutting off their hand ? The French cut off the head of my great grandpa in 1947
dapper parcel
Belgium is kinda unfortunate they don't have the clout to sweep their antics under the rug
desert agate
sweeping atrocities under the rug isnt exactly a good thing
spring briar
Cutting off their hand ? The French cut off the head of my great grandpa in 1947
The hand cutting wasn’t done by belgians but by congolese people that the belgians appointed
spring briar
Belgium is kinda unfortunate they don't have the clout to sweep their antics und...
There’s nothing unfortunate about not sweeping atrocities under the rug
spring briar
Cutting off their hand ? The French cut off the head of my great grandpa in 1947
I’m sure this indicates that they win the atrocity olympics over belgium
#history full of beautiful takes today
remote monolith
its a beautiful day alright
spring briar
Cold and cloudy
alpine onyx
lime belfry
I’m sure this indicates that they win the atrocity olympics over belgium
French used to love the guilotine
While it was viewed as civilized in France at the time
My grandpa, who was like 9 years old at the time, got PTSD by it
His dad was captured while helping the resistants against French and well, let just say the French wanted to make a few examples
In case others try to do the same thing
frigid karma
ooh
lime belfry
Bad enough to cut a person head off, they also hung the head on the market as a warning
lime belfry
turns out my grandpa worked as a radar operator at hainan
Wait, so you are also Chinede
Damn, how many Chinese are there in here
spring briar
Bad enough to cut a person head off, they also hung the head on the market as a ...
I mean didn’t this also happen on multiple occasions with european missionaries being decapitated and their heads hung on the street
Sure this is not in a war context but I feel like it should be mentioned
lime belfry
Ehh I am probably 0.1% Chinese if I trace my ancestor hard ebough
spring briar
frigid karma
you are savage jungle chinese
lime belfry
I mean didn’t this also happen on multiple occasions with european missionaries ...
Doesnt justify doing it in 1947
frigid karma
/s
spring briar
Doesnt justify doing it in 1947
Decapitating someone is never justified lets keep it at that
spring briar
You did too
eternal veldt
Are we seriously deteriorating into atrocity olympics here
spring briar
If they wanted to make an exanple
Oh yes killing by gun >>>> killing by decap guys
frigid karma
lime belfry
If anything I fairly understand guillotine was the standard in her colonies
So in a way it just normal execution
With a bit of twist
frigid karma
lime belfry
I know
spring briar
Then???
lime belfry
That why I clearly said I understood it the standard method
But the whole hanging on the market thingy is a bit over the top
And yeah I took it a bit personal because agin
That my own great grandpa
Not like a random person
remote monolith
Are we seriously deteriorating into atrocity olympics here
its not #history without measuring contests on who gets the worst atrocities I guess
lime belfry
He died for a good cause, just the way he went out was kinda brutal
spring briar
Yeah
I also have family members who fought in european wars and I’m sure they have a lot to tell as well
But it’s not up to me
lime belfry
I didnt blame you
spring briar
Atleast not in this context
lime belfry
Dont need to be super attached to that
spring briar
No but you do compare belgian and french atrocities
spring briar
While clearly not understanding the formers’ involvement
lime belfry
Yeah because in the end rulers would treat their colonial subjects bad anyway
lime belfry
True, I mean you did invent Pho
Built a bunch of bridges
And railways
Hell, the only reasons we used Latin based alphabet and not chinese based characters
Is because of the French
I would 100% be speaking semi Chinese right now if the French never changed the alphabet
spring briar
Also if you want to mention french atrocities in indochina
Atleast mention the jails
lime belfry
The jails are bad but it not THAT brutal in a sense
Because most North Vietnamese leaders that got jailed were later released by French themselves
And that turned out to be the French greatest mistake later
But the French, at least in Indochina, seemed to believed in fair trial
frigid karma
hmm, now i just had a funny thought
communist vietnam as a result of paris commune taking over the country and its colonies
lime belfry
That was honestly true
spring briar
Our greatest mistake was not issuing strict orders to french military stationed in indochina
Would’ve drastically facilitated the decolonisation
lime belfry
Althoguh I find it a bit funny that it was the Brit that saved Ho Chi Minh
spring briar
And avoided shit like haiphong
lime belfry
Who later is the reason the French lost Indochina
spring briar
Which lead to ho chi minh being blamed and shit
lime belfry
So the French captured HCM in Hong Kong in like earlt 30s
But it was a Brit lawyer that saved him
And got him out of trial
French once again got ruined by Brit
frigid karma
didn't the french also get ruined there as well
lime belfry
Too busy in Alregia to care
spring briar
Too busy in Alregia to care
lime belfry
Choco French shipgirls ? Based
But true person want Tribal class to be all tribal girls
I mean Eskimo looks Canadian enough
spring briar
Choco French shipgirls ? Based
I have been asking for north african shipgirls for ages
frigid karma
which game
eternal veldt
V*ctory Belles
frigid karma
ew
lime belfry
I mean Algerian dont have that dark of a skin color
They are more like Middle eastern
So technically Algerie doesnt have to be choco
frigid karma
eh, i don't see it
i just want black girls man
when was our last choco ship?
bluegill?
spring briar
lime belfry
HMS gurkha
frigid karma
they even got the red zoom recording dot so you can't lie to them
gurkha would be nice, yea
sadly current political tensions might mean that idea is out
lime belfry
Why that
frigid karma
china no like india
bash head with rock and stick in mountains
literally
monte cengio but 2022
lime belfry
I mean... Arizona has belly dancer skin
And that a relatively new skin
I dont see why u cant just snuck an Indian looking theme in
frigid karma
well that's fine, yea
spring briar
Yeah but ari is as white as a starbucks on halloween
frigid karma
but arizona is also clearly white
frigid karma
i honestly forgot north2 was choco since her skin is so damn bright
but yeah, she's choco
lime belfry
Choco seems to be exclusive with Eagle, IJN and RN
spring briar
You forgot Vichya
lime belfry
South Dakota seems to be exclusively choco
So we know for sure Indiana is choco
Like come on, there is literally Indian in her name
She bound to be choco
But for some reasons AL taking their sweet time to release her
Especially in the age where all Iowa gonna be better than her
lime belfry
Oh no they are missing the last BB of their class
I can’t imagine the horror
Richelieu got all her sis checked out
Even the imaginary one
lime belfry
All Elite
ivory ridge
Clemenceau is literally a richelieu
spring briar
Don’t hurt yourself
lime belfry
Wonder if that hidden Vought plane is any good
spring briar
V-156F?
lime belfry
Yes
spring briar
Should be ok?
lime belfry
The sprite indicates it is in fighter role
Carry like 2 bombs
I count the shot
Breguet seemed to appear extremely early in AL
But didnt get added until Joffre
lime belfry
Joffre EX launched Vought
Bearn barrage launched Vought
But we dont have Vought
Truly spoon feeding gears
spring briar
Where my other carriers
spring briar
hexed patio
I saw Ting An on the wiki earlier as a smol sneak peek and I'm curious about her history, but when I looked it up it showed nothing about her :<
spiral cedar
@eternal veldt
hexed patio
Huhh? >~>
lime belfry
<:smolPeek:847544182263644200> I saw Ting An on the wiki earlier as a smol sneak...
Go to chinese azur lane wiki
lime belfry
Press translate
frigid karma
can you read chinese?
hexed patio
n-noooo...
lime belfry
U can scroll down and fknd out everything
hexed patio
Wish I could, I'll translate when I wake up, I'm in bed rn
eternal veldt
Don't really know much about the ROCN; Can't comment much.
I'd buy a book but that price tag is 
subtle prawn
delicate beacon
U can scroll down and fknd out everything
I stumbled on the Chinese Wiki once.
Sadly it was navweaps/navypedia tier history so not very useful.
lime belfry
I stumbled on the Chinese Wiki once.
Sadly it was navweaps/navypedia tier histor...
It is informative for beginners
spring briar
Sanglune navweaps hate boner.exe
shrewd pecan
I don't really think feeding beginners false/misleading information is going to be all that informative if its really that bad
subtle prawn
There was that one instance where they practically copied a section from John Jordan’s book on French BBs for Richelieu when she first came out
tough quail
its a strange hateboner
spring briar
There was that one instance where they practically copied a section from John Jo...
Like
Fwiw that’s a good source to steal from
tough quail
most people dont even get to the level of navweaps/navypedia and if you eschew them they're basically going to get nowhere due to no reliable starting point
shrewd pecan
eh never dawned on me until now that the M1A2 baseline's model in warthunder is actually a M1A2 SEP
purely through the presence of the VCU
shut wren
manic latch
shut wren
but still can be penned if you find right point
fierce sparrow
tough quail
reading about pre-SEP Abrams cost cutting is a nightmare
truly the no man's sky of tanks
shut wren
Stalin's Moon rover
junior trench
Doesn't that make Russian tank design Star Citizen
shrewd pecan
along the lines of other crap I noticed regarding the war thunder abrams
M1A2 is using the export armor package intended for Sweden and not its 2nd gen DU armor package
M1A2 is missing its bustle rack APU
M1A2SEP does not feature its upgraded third gen DU turret armor
M1A2SEP is missing its hull mounted APU (not always mounted so minor inaccuracy)
M1A1HC does not feature its improved hull armor as it is the only active duty abrams to have DU in the hull (there are around 5 M1A2s that feature hull DU as well )
M1A1HC turret armor is additionally using the export armor as well despite using the same armor as the A2 baseline
M1A1 AIM is missing its thermal sight for the commanders 50 cal alongside its FLIR
M1IP & M1A1 seem to have inaccurate turret armor as well
(I was extremely bored last night)
maiden citrus
INDIAN GIRLS ARE HOT
spring briar
>M1A2 is using the export armor package intended for Sweden and not its 2nd gen ...
This feels similar to excel file revisions
When someone copies the old file and starts working in a new one while adding shit to the original file name
shrewd pecan
I mean every abrams in war thunder has been essentially copy pasted with basic model changes and changed thermals since the addition of the baseline A2
to where the baseline A2s model is not even a baseline A2
spring briar
See this is as mentally infuriating as the excel file example
maiden citrus
it's warthunder
cinder escarp
As one of the level 100 tank autists, there's some mistakes there tato. A2 SEPv1 doesn't have armor improvement, the hull-mounted APUs are/were super rare, HC uses a different armor from the A2 baseline (earlier HAP iteration), no service Abrams has DU in the hull...
shrewd pecan
As one of the level 100 tank autists, there's some mistakes there tato. A2 SEPv1...
HC does
cinder escarp
I can literally get the NRC permit for Lima, only 5 tanks ever made have DU in the hull - all in army museums.
cinder escarp
IMHO they should have fielded that setup, but they didn't for whatever reason.
shrewd pecan
Weight increases for the part of the tank least likely to be hit
cinder escarp
Eh, the hull front is pretty likely. That said, it would make most sense to put DU in the mantlet and not the hull front pocket as DU isn't very good in ME. But it's very good in TE. So in space limited areas it becomes relevant. It's... sort of pointless in a really volumetrically large pocket like the hull front.
shrewd pecan
The other thing is the M1A2 SEPv1s armor
Since everything regarding its turret DU being improved seems to be conflicting
maiden citrus
no
spring briar
Not if they breathe in the DU dust after the armor is hit
manic latch
spring briar
Which they shouldn’t
shrewd pecan
the main issue is ingesting it
shrewd pecan
DU isn’t really threatening unless you’re either eating it as I said or it gets into ground water
tho that applies also to tungsten so tungsten ammo users are not safe
cinder escarp
Yeah uh, DU is functionally not radioactive. It's chemically horrifically toxic, but actually less so than tungsten.
Just uh... don't ingest it.
maiden citrus
the off limits DU hot dog
spring briar
Any heavy metal is dangerous when ingested
People just read “uranium” and loose their reasoning
cinder escarp
I mean, bismuth is harmless )))
maiden citrus
back in the good ol days we put nice and safe asbestos in there
shrewd pecan
anyway I improve notes by pirating janes
cinder escarp
Asbestos is another thing that is totally harmless as long as you do not ingest
spring briar
Asbestos dust scars your lungs and these scars become cancer
So as long as you dont mess with asbestos in a shed or old building you’ll be ok
cinder escarp
Asbestos, DU, Lead, dextro-amino acid proteins all things that are fine as long as you don't ingest.
maiden citrus
du hot dog, asbestos bun
spring briar
Maka noooo
frigid karma
<:MakaNotes:819456549566676992>
Specifically the ones from Asia, maka
Although, native Americans are also from Asia, so I’ll allow it 
Just need more choco
shrewd pecan
ain't that neat
spring briar
Whats neat
frigid karma
I wonder why Poland picked sk over Japan for their tanks
Is it just a more open export market?
shrewd pecan
I wonder why Poland picked sk over Japan for their tanks
Licensed production of the K2 alongside Korea in general being a far better defense partner
Poland and South Korea are essentially teaming up to take on Germany and other European defense competitors
beyond that sadly this book will not be too helpful for my abrams info search
"Improved Ml MBT
First Improved Ml was completed in December 1984 and final deliveries are expected to be made in February 1986. The Improved Ml is essentially the Ml with improved armour protection.
M1A1 MBT
First two production MlAls were completed in August 1985 and of the original anticipated buy of 7085 tanks, 3790 were expected to be Mis. In addition to improved armour protec¬ tion of the Improved Ml, the M1A1 has the 120 mm Rhein- metall smooth-bore gun and an integrated NBC system. This provides the crew with conditioned air for breathing and also supplies cooling or heating for the crew as required while they are wearing their protective suits and face masks.
M1A1 with Block II Improvements
First production models of this version are expected to be completed in mid-1988 and will feature all of the improve¬ ments of the M1A1 plus an improved commander’s weapon station, eye safe CO 2 laser rangefinder, fast refuel capability (increased from 50 to 200 gallons per minute) and driver’s thermal viewer.
The commander’s station will have a panoramic sight, automatic search and detection capability, improved target designation and handoff capability and an improved computer.
M1A1 with Block III improvements
This will enter production in 1989 and have all of the improvements of the previous models plus some others."
on to the other one
who would of guessed that the two tanks destined to fight alongside each other end up being next to each other in this old ass copy of janes
dusty kraken
I wonder why Poland picked sk over Japan for their tanks
Well they had similar experiences
In being surrounded by neighbours that tried to invade them
And not existing for a time period
shrewd pecan
depends on what aspects your asking about
cinder escarp
K-2 is excellent in all regards and I can only really think of two complaints that are forced by its small size and weight
Don't ask about the side armor or ammo stowage
shrewd pecan
I'm not expecting the K-2 to have decent armor outside of its heavier export versions
frigid karma
I mean, we are still talking about hard stats here
cinder escarp
Frontal protection of K-2 is quite good, they tested it against a huge array of threats. It's not perfect, but it's about as good as it gets.
shrewd pecan
I mean its worse threat is Nork grade APFSDS and kornets
kornets are likely gonna be a issue but I don't imagine the Norks APFSDS game is all that good
frigid karma
It’s hard to really judge a tank’s tactical performance in the field until it actually starts seeing combat action
But k2 is a quite good tank for modern standards and compares quite favorable to something like an Abrams
shrewd pecan
its meant to be operated with a conscript level crew if you want to take that as a note for how simple it is to use
anyway anyone here have PDFs of the more recent Janes firepower, survivability & Mobility yearbooks?
shrewd pecan
junior trench
DU isn’t really threatening unless you’re either eating it as I said or it gets ...
DU is water insoluable
unless you're like, drinking the sediment
which... why
it getting into the ground water just means it... stays down there
tough quail
dont lick the weird metal
maiden citrus
the forbidden hot dog
spring briar
I just had hotdogs
tough quail
Doesn't that make Russian tank design Star Citizen
also nah, more like decent release turned abandonware
worked fine at the time then just stagnated after that
maiden citrus
spring briar
tough quail
talk to me about leclercs richy
tough quail
they kind of flexed on everything in service on introduction
by having the legendary combination of an autoloader thats good, a gun that works, and thermals that work
spring briar
tough quail
good job le fromch
spring briar
but how does it scale to fullbring bankai ichigo
tough quail
eh like 0.70, best they could do in the early 90s
spring briar
eh like 0.70, best they could do in the early 90s
found info on the 340mm Mle.1887
781mm steel penetration at the muzzle
1202mm iron penetration at the muzzle
(Mle.1887 was the first smokeless powder naval gun)
maiden citrus
note to self need at least 782
spring briar
at 1600m, the pen is still 670mm of steel and 1021mm of iron
and british battle range was ~1800m
so Brennus, Valmy and Jemmappes are having a field day
maiden citrus
🇫🇷
frigid karma
Mistook the left turret for a sort of ciws
frigid karma
Well, with those gun elevation angles
They’re definitely “close in” weapons systems
subtle prawn
junior trench
by having the legendary combination of an autoloader thats good, a gun that work...
the engine is a diesel with a turbine compressor/APU
suffer
"yes, we want the fuel consumption of a turbine without the associated advantages"
shrewd pecan
the holes in the turret armor are also rather interesting
frigid karma
The holes?
spring briar
there are no holes
spring briar
6000-3000 HE, any lower AP
delicate beacon
Or Common and Hardened as they were known
spring briar
so yeah 2 km
shrewd pecan
The holes?
there's a good picture showing this somewhere
tho there's several rather large weak points on the Leclercs turret
spring briar
WT model?
shrewd pecan
WT is the best way to show where the armor does and doesn't cover
but essentially the placement of the gunners dog house is questionable
spring briar
get out
frigid karma
You got actual diagrams rather than wt?
spring briar
shrewd pecan
I used war thunder since it shows you where the composite is and isn't
simply put the dog house is a weak point and the gun mantlet is rather large
I'm not saying the tanks bad
there's just flaws like any other tank
spring briar
that's really nitpicking "a hole" sorry tato
spring briar
no, leclerc does indeed have the weakest turret armor
it also has less thickness on the frontal steel plates as well
not sure about the composite
shrewd pecan
the Swedish trials shows a early leclerc
tho the weak points do still exist in later ones
spring briar
I'm also not even sure if the leclerc engine is as thirsty as it used to be
shrewd pecan
what we could of had
spring briar
is this an uparmor leclerc?
shrewd pecan
yup
spring briar
I want
shrewd pecan
regarding the Swede trials
I still wonder to this day what was in the Swedish armor for the abrams
spring briar
how so?
shrewd pecan
its rather cracked export armor
shrewd pecan
the hull armor is also noticeable
spring briar
both have just become green except on the outlines
where the plates are literally horizontal
now this is armor
@tough quail
ivory ridge
spring briar
spiral cedar
glass trail
https://twitter.com/PathToNewEden/status/1618335546987933696?t=7d2EhsaKpJhk2sQ5I...
its hilarious that people will believe this
ivory ridge
Bro her claim is that shipped back for repair = destroyed 😭
junior trench
yes
shrewd pecan
I mean its Syrian girl
ivory ridge
oh definitely
shrewd pecan
she will never argue in good faith
frigid karma
Her shit takes arent worth the bytes used to store them
frigid karma
Oh I 100% know what this was for
shrewd pecan
I mean its debunking bad history that's being used as a reference to current events
frigid karma
Doubt Abrams will be doing much insurgent fighting in the near future lmao
shrewd pecan
I don't really think it matters if the current event is briefly mentioned as long as its not focused upon
frigid karma
Surprised she didn’t bring up the Turk leopard 2 being destroyed as evidence for why it’s dogwater kek
junior trench
tbf
that did bring some interesting things to light
like the bulkhead between the turret ammo and the electronics not being able to withstand fire
setting the rest of the tank on fire
ivory ridge
Surprised she didn’t bring up the Turk leopard 2 being destroyed as evidence for...
it was a post about abrams, but a lot of people mentioned the turks anyway
frigid karma
tbf
true
but still, it's another case of tanks being improperly used and then being extrapolated to conclusions far beyond the original scope
shut wren
We should have a alt history for people who are into it
humble mulch
That is, more or less, this channel
frigid karma
We should have a alt history for people who are into it
read the name of this channel
shut wren
Im grinding my Mig in wt
shrewd pecan
yeah but are you shooting down drones with mavericks?
shut wren
Im shooting down Cold war jets with WW2 props
humble mulch
can you guys also not talk about WT gaming to much
Also this channel more or less is a catch all
like if you wanted to talk about food culture, we got you
humble mulch
cause there is a history to that and shit
shut wren
like if you wanted to talk about food culture, we got you
Do i do it in the food channel or?
humble mulch
#food i think is for real food, but like if you wanna talk about why idk canada has different chip flavors the the US and etc, theres a decent history and reason to that
frigid karma
easy, they're less fat
humble mulch
We also are generally more accepting of text dumps
shut wren
"Generally"
rapid junco
I revisited that post of The Front Channel
And...
rapid junco
Ngl
That i Just watched a few of his vídeos because he mentions us During WW2
Although in Both vídeos he made about us he commited mistakes
And i also remember his "Countries that change with war"
And then he mentions Puerto Rico
And Argentina
subtle prawn
shut wren
I would say a Battleship is a Battleship
kindred reef
but does the battleship have a 455mm autocannon?
remote monolith
midriff my beloved
shut wren
@lavish fable
strong plank
deep apex
literally satan
?
deep apex
Why?
frigid karma
read the lore
deep apex
are you seriously letting the lore of a hacha game influence how you see a real ship?
ivory ridge
smartest ib tag user
eternal veldt
glass trail
Bro her claim is that shipped back for repair = destroyed 😭
source ?
subtle prawn
glass trail
also this reminds me of people shit talking the f22 and f35 for some minor accidents
if we're really taking into account tank casualties, leopard ii has one of the lowest death rates.... cus its seen almost zero action
and russian t series tanks are way worse
frigid karma
no era?
shrewd pecan
man just say 2
there 2A4s
I don't even think there's anything pre 2A4 in service anymore since everything was rebuilt into newer standards or put into a museum
glass trail
yeah
in any case, the manufacturers are probably redoing tests to figure out what happened there
or maybe the problem was patched in later models
shrewd pecan
how do you
subtle prawn
if we're really taking into account tank casualties, leopard ii has one of the l...
The Danes and Canadians took a few of their Leopards into Afghanistan
shrewd pecan
prevent a ATGM from ammo detonating a tank in its weakest point
frigid karma
don't tell the turks that
to be fair to the tank though, a significant portion of the problem has to do with how turkey deployed them
glass trail
but much like russias poor use of mechanized
shrewd pecan
to be fair to the tank though, a significant portion of the problem has to do wi...
combine that with the bulkhead between the commanders station and the turret ammo being unable to withstand fire
glass trail
you cant deploy tanks with the expectation that they can survive on their own
frigid karma
combine that with the bulkhead between the commanders station and the turret amm...
challenger 2 didn't have this issue, right?
glass trail
yes
shrewd pecan
yeah your tank with the suicide autoloader
I like the oplot its a nice looking tank
it fixes none of the issues of the t-series tanks because it is still a t-series tank
glass trail
it fixed armor issues
shrewd pecan
🤨 having a fraction of your rounds in a bustle rack doesn't fix the fact the crew is sitting on top of a ammo rack
glass trail
the oplots hull is much stronger than the russian t-84s
shrewd pecan
yeah the armor issues with the same weak points and heavy dependency on ERA
junior trench
and theyre just as good as an abrams
Lol
shrewd pecan
(this was from scuttling the tank)
junior trench
Maybe as a sheet of paper specs
But as systems in the world I wouldn't be looking to obtain leopard 2 except as charity
glass trail
its not like the leopard is that much worse though
field testing definitely went in its favor
junior trench
No it didn't lol
shrewd pecan
the American trials of the leopard 2