all the real #history regulars do crack on a regular basis
#history
desert agate
frigid karma
all the real <#515583624083406848> regulars do crack on a regular basis
Crack is the poor man’s addictive drug
I play world of warships
frigid karma
we do IJA Brand Tojokistan origin select meth
straight outta unit 731?
eternal veldt
I take opium instead
Straight from Peacock and Buchan
And MacArthur's, the paint company
Not the cunt that ought to be shot
tough quail
smoke macarthur's bones
shut wren
I take War thunder Brand Soviet mid tier experience
eternal veldt
I wouldnt mind grinding his bones down and paint it on Prince of Wales
Perfect antifouling, who needs the grey anyway
Also
frigid karma
I wouldnt mind grinding his bones down and paint it on Prince of Wales
There’s not enough of his bones
Especially since he lacks a spine
desert agate
tight bridge
God they need to give her a retrofit version
Bit biased as a WV native but she went from being sunk at Pearl to sending rival battleships to the deep only a few years later
shrewd pecan
shrewd pecan
eternal veldt
Bit biased as a WV native but she went from being sunk at Pearl to sending rival...
The real big fuck you is being present at the surrender ceremony herself.
Would be an extra rub of salt if the ceremony was on board her, but alas, Halsey transferred to the Missouri.
frigid karma
eternal veldt
eternal veldt
Guess. 
frigid karma
Guess. <:EntyHeh:585585239775248404>
lexington in a different timeline with 4 twin 203mm turrets on the flight deck
the shock wave is used to assist takeoff
SWAT
(shock wave assisted takeoff)
spiral cedar
A naval yard or armory?
eternal veldt
Heh, no.
You can see the bollards and railings on the side, its a ship.
If it's too hard, I'll just give a hint: 🌭
maiden citrus
USS Hot Dog
eternal veldt
Come on Maka, you know the bote.
maiden citrus
hm, spotting guns on top of the turrets and what seems to be four in alternating heights... makes me think wyoming
eternal veldt
As expected from the Standard Connosieur.
Technically not one, but still.
Yes, Wyoming herself.
maiden citrus
delaware has a pic somewhat like this, but the fourth turret in the bg if one looks at the gun rows
plus the gun heights
I'm glad I got it right hehe
one think that helped was how close turret 1 and 2 seem
eternal veldt
The alternating heights of the pairs was the give away for me
maiden citrus
very early pic too, as there's no aft mast
eternal veldt
Most likely WW1, with the cage masts.
maiden citrus
probably, as later that mast would move back between the turret pairs
there's something really cool looking about the former though where it's mast, 4 turrets
spring briar
I find it rather easy to distinguish between the USN dreadnoughts due to the unique turret arrangements
Especially on the early ones
maiden citrus
I think the florida and delaware class gun arrangement looks cool
spring briar
It’s unique
eternal veldt
The standards are surprisingly unique despite how standard they are
spring briar
Ok
eternal veldt
I would struggle against Nevada/Pennsylvania side on, though.
eternal veldt
Good luck with potato quality photos
eternal veldt
Like this one
spring briar
Because the twins have a wider spacing between the barrels
eternal veldt
Im more thinking of the tripod era.
eternal veldt
Okay, modern french BBs
spring briar
You basically fucked
eternal veldt
A grand total of four
eternal veldt
The Takaos are no slouch either
maiden citrus
the front casemate position is also different
eternal veldt
Especially before Takao and Atago's rebuild
maiden citrus
you would think nevada's would be further forwards as it's an older ship
eternal veldt
"Oh, you dont remember the porthole number and the funnel piping order"?
"commit seppuku"
spring briar
the front casemate position is also different
Maka playing “spot the 7 differences”
maiden citrus
easy mode, pringle
eternal veldt
Fletcher is actually not too hard
Usually 3 batches
Round bridge, square bridge, anti-kamikaze fit or not
And the catapult ones, of course
maiden citrus
but yeah that's what I'd check if it was from the side
the casemate one is probably the best bet
maiden citrus
eternal veldt
Bye
spring briar
Have to climb into a reactor
maiden citrus
welcome to seaworld
spring briar
eternal veldt
Yea, but they wouldnt be plated in as built
maiden citrus
even plated over you can tell it's not in the same location originally
eternal veldt
But I think I can see it
Might pour over a shipbucket one day to get it sorted out
maiden citrus
penny's is almost in front of the belt and the back of the casemate is in front of the main gun end
eternal veldt
Or just straight up build one, surefire way to remember 
maiden citrus
nevada's is further back and clearly over the belt
eternal veldt
Ooh, that works.
eternal veldt
Actually, fucking hell, I have Okie's plan from BuShips itself
Should look at it later
maiden citrus
penny's in plated over form
even at an unflattering angle it's in front of the gun ends
of course this gets harder if the guns are turned lol
but they do keep the plated over areas till end of life (or where an obvious visual distinction can be made either way)
penny 1943 plans, cutout still far forwards
eternal veldt
Post 1941, it gets somewhat easier since Okie and AZ are gone
And Pennsy got a massive overhaul
maiden citrus
well yeah and rebuilt nevada looks like a chad
maiden citrus
I seem to remember that too
maiden citrus
makes sense, even at pearl she was waiting for chicago pianos, and had the areas to receive them installed already when sunk iirc, other ships already carrying it
eternal veldt
Very good looking.
spiral cedar
(note that this uses the as-designed French 380mm muzzle energy)
spring briar
(note that this uses the as-designed French 380mm muzzle energy)
Impressive
Reactor is fixed
spring briar
(note that this uses the as-designed French 380mm muzzle energy)
Now do this for a pre dread with a tapering barbette
eternal veldt
Ooh.
spring briar
?
frigid karma
again?
tough quail
born to die
frigid karma
make it 5 for 5 in spirit of the brothers
rapid junco
Meanwhile Imperial Marinheiro: In 3 months it'll be a year since it happened, won't you guys lift me up?
Well, i don't have any news whatsover
alpine quest
When will we have this in azur lane version ? (USS Midway)
subtle prawn
maiden citrus
spring briar
subtle prawn
delicate beacon
Well that's one way to shoot.
frigid karma
https://imgur.com/49qwa9Q
1 km/h top speed
kindred reef
Yeah some early tank designs were dumb
shut wren
Early tanks were basically lot of armor and big gun
kindred reef
Sounds like a heavy tank
junior trench
early tanks had so much "lot of armor" that backwards FMJ ammo was a legitimate threat for quite a few models
frigid karma
Armor wasn’t so much a priority for early tanks as getting them to cross the shit-pit that is no man’s land
delicate beacon
Track design and engine performance were usually the bottleneck factors back in that day.
Armour was less of a concern since tank to tank combat wasnt important yet.
frigid karma
@maiden citrus
subtle prawn
shut wren
why build a replica when you can just build the real thing and use it
spiral cedar
Smaller scale
eternal veldt
What the fuck are those masts
valid trout
https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1613319410000830465 <@1254457974489088...
oooh colorado but fake
manic latch
rapid junco
I dunno
But it sounds nonsense comparing PoW to Musashi 
frigid karma
also the 'x ship took y torps before sinking'
because ships must function like a wows healthbar
spiral cedar
.
rapid junco
Yeah
One of people commenting in there is that PoW was attacked by a constant wave of Aircraft
While Musashi was attacked by spaced waves
Which gave time for DCT (Damage Control Team) to work on repairing
spiral cedar
The more important point is that the hits Musashi took didn't hit critical areas in comparison to PoW
rapid junco
Ah Jaba
Since we are talking about nonsense statements
You may remember that i showed you the new book i bought
About Brazil in WW1
spiral cedar
Where one of the torps basically screwed her
rapid junco
And there's one thing Daroz wrote
That i still can't get over it
I didn't expect that coming from someone who is a guy who have a degree on military history
Daroz, just like many others states that the ships of Navy in that time were all virtually "Obsolete"
Which for the ships of the 1910s Fleet, i think it is unfair
They are more like, "Out of date" (that is, a retrofit could made them more war worthy)
Obsolete sounds almost like it's unusable
And he commits the old misconception of
"The ships were bad because they used coal"
When 90% (exaggeration) of the ships of the great powers were coal powered
With even some oil powered having coal backups (ah, he also doesn't make clear the fact that is still steam that powers the ship, but the fuel used is different)
But he then contradicts himself (in my opinion) in a later chapter
His contradiction comes when he narrates the scuttling of the gunboat SMS Eber
Eber was an Iltis class gunboat that was interned in Salvador in 1914
After she supplied crew, munitions and her guns to SMS Cap Trafalgar
With our declaration of war in 1917
A boarding party was sent to capture her
A sentry noticed them and they started the scuttling
By first pouring fuel (i think gasoline), setting fire to it and opening the bottom valves
13 sailors were captured
After that
Daroz says that the action was slow and badly planned
Ok, i agree
But then he says
"An opportunity to incorporate a modern warship that could be used by the Navy was lost"
So he said that the 1910s fleet was obsolete and also said they were bad because they were coal burners
But later on says that a 1903 coal fired gunboat is a "modern warship"?
A gunboat without guns, might i add
All of her guns were transferred to SMS Cap Trafalgar
Sorry for this much of text
cinder escarp
Musashi also took an unusual amount of its, even for her sheer size and protection... purely because the strikes were poorly coordinated and attacked from each side.
frigid karma
problem was fixed with yamato
cinder escarp
The result was that hits were very evenly distributed and she never capsized, which is the fast way to sink a warship
frigid karma
or maybe they should've sent a submarine holding a sign that says 'very puny usn submarine, do not bother controlling damage of weak american torpedo without fighting spirit'
cinder escarp
Musashi took almost 10 hours to go down, Yammy went down in under 2
spiral cedar
The funky part is that it's possible that Yamato took more total torpedo hits than Musashi did (even if she sank faster)
rapid junco
So he said that the 1910s fleet was obsolete and also said they were bad because...
This remembers me of two occasions
spiral cedar
The funky part is that it's possible that Yamato took more total torpedo hits th...
In part because she suffered overwhelming damage quickly enough that she became a rather easy target
e.g. while beginning to roll over she took 6 torpedoes in one section from a single group of torpedo bombers
rapid junco
One
When U-530 and U-977 where stopped here at the Navy Arsenal
Many people said we should've seized those two subs and do reverse engineering on them
spiral cedar
e.g. while beginning to roll over she took 6 torpedoes in one section from a sin...
(Which probably slowed sinking since it was on the reverse side of how she was turning over)
rapid junco
And the second one
When a Ukrainian company offered the hulk of the cruiser "Ukrayina" as a "bonus" if they got the contract of the new frigates for the Navy
And, ofc
Same speech
"Lets do reverse engineering"
The last one was in 2017, might i add
eternal veldt
The damage control centre was knocked out quite quickly on Yamato, if I recall.
She was also bombed - near the smokestack, and with a 1000lb straight into 15.5cm No. 1's turret and IIRC, had a fire in that magazine that eventually fed into the main magazines itself
spiral cedar
Fatal damage, by this accounting, is reached after 8 total hits (1 in the first wave, 7 in the third and final wave)
But she's such a sitting duck that (by Lundgren's tally) she takes another 14 torpedoes while sinking
thorn trail
Question regarding the Centaur class light carriers. Why were they called light carriers when they were roughly the same displacement as the Yorktown/Illustrious
spiral cedar
Small airgroup capacity, as well as origins in the preceding 1942 CVL designs
thorn trail
Small airgroup capacity, as well as origins in the preceding 1942 CVL designs
Wait but didn't they have around the same capacity as the Illustrious?
spiral cedar
The Lusties carry more with a deck park I believe
thorn trail
The Lusties carry more with a deck park I believe
quick search says 42 vs 57
42 being Centaur class
desert agate
probably notable that Centaurs first airwing was generally a lot more efficient as far as stowage is concerned so they could squeeze a few more planes on board
subtle prawn
Question regarding the Centaur class light carriers. Why were they called light ...
A further development of the “1942 Light Fleet Carriers” aka the Colossus/Majestic classes
desert agate
they also weren't purely "light carriers" the Brits called them Light Fleet Carriers because they did carry a significantly larger airgroup than your average light carrier
also very much relevant that the Illustrious class had a ridiculously small airgroup for their displacement thanks to the use of a heavy armoured box
tight bridge
thorn trail
they also weren't purely "light carriers" the Brits called them Light Fleet Carr...
so they're only "light" relative to the other fleet carriers
desert agate
yeah when you compare them to ships like the Implacables or Audacious class, or foreign ships like the Essex/Yorktown class it can be evident that Illustrious' tiny airgroup was very much an outlier as far as fleet carriers are concerned
subtle prawn
The 1942 light fleet carriers were the largest class of major warships ever ordered for the RN, ten of them being ordered on a single day, 7 August 1942. Postwar they achieved the largest total of overseas sales ever achieved by major British warships, and by the late 1950s every navy that operated aircraft carriers, with the sole exception of the USA, did so with one or more 1942 light fleet carriers purchased from the UK. This was a remarkable achievement and, given the success of the design, it is surprising that the RN itself did not make more use of them. For the decade until 1955 they certainly formed the ‘backbone’ of the operational carrier fleet, and there were plans to modernise some of them, but with the drastic reductions that followed the 1957 Defence Review only Warrior was modernised and she was soon sold. Originally these ships were designed to operate any naval aircraft in service; the larger fleet carriers were to operate the same aircraft in larger numbers. The effect of the economies forced on the RN after 1957 encouraged the use of a smaller number of larger carriers to reduce the cost of manpower and ownership, if not that of replacement construction. The decision to procure large aircraft capable of nuclear strike and multiple roles also favoured larger ships, but it is interesting to see how well other navies did operating Sea Hawks, Sea Venoms, Douglas A-4 Skyhawks and Grumman S-2 Trackers from these outstanding ships.```Wait the Implacable's design was based on the Illustrious right? Then why did the Lusty's have such tiny air group compared to the Implacable's?
they both had armored hangars right?
desert agate
10'000t + designed around deck park + could operate more modern space efficient aircraft thanks to a taller hanger
subtle prawn
The two new ships, named Implacable and Indefatigable, underwent considerable redesign to meet the new requirement. They were 26ft longer than Illustrious but kept the same beam. The three-shaft arrangement could not deliver the power needed for the extra 2 knots, so a new four-shaft layout was ‘shoehorned’ into the same hull width as the first group. The increased quantity of exhaust gases required a larger funnel to clear them, and this was set in a larger island, a major recognition feature that differentiated the third group from their earlier half-sisters. The armoured hangars used the same thicknesses of metal as Indomitable except for the bulkheads, which were 2in thick instead of 1.5in; compensation for the extra weight was achieved by lowering the height of the lower hangar to 14ft, the same as the upper. Thus freeboard at the flight deck was 50ft, 2ft less than Indomitable and 12ft higher than Illustrious.```Ok regarding the Lusty's, why did the Navy accept the tradeoff of lower air group for the addition of the heavily armoured box
junior trench
an assumption that they'd be getting bombed by land based air constantly
also the RN was being starved of planes by the RAF
so it's not like they had planes to fill out a larger park anyway
it turns out that not only was European Axis anti-shipping absolutely anemic, the RN's AA fire control was inherently broken
subtle prawn
Henderson insisted that the new ships must have armoured hangars to protect their fragile aircraft against hits from 500lb bombs dropped from above 7,000ft, 1,000lb bombs dropped from below 4,500ft and cruiser shellfire from ranges outside 7,000 yards. They had to be capable of remaining in action after sustaining damage, rather than merely surviving to return to a dockyard for repairs. He briefed Forbes in a series of discussions in his office at the Admiralty, during which Forbes put forward alternative sketch proposals. Armouring the flight deck and hangar of a 23,000-ton, standard displacement ship was not a simple proposition, but Forbes achieved it. There could be no question of double hangars like Ark Royal’s, so a smaller air group would have to be accepted. The eventual design made the single hangar an ‘armoured box’ between the lifts, which were at the forward and aft extremities of the hangar, outside the ‘box’. The flight deck itself comprised 3in armoured plates which were riveted and rabbeted in place to provide a smooth upper surface supported by athwartship beams which were 6ft deep and allowed the whole structure to form the upper strength deck of the hull. The hangar sides and ends were of 4.5in armoured plate. This adjoined 2.5in armour at hangar deck level which was taken outboard to meet the 4.5in waterline belt. There was no anti-torpedo bulge, but there was a 1.5in internal splinter bulkhead behind an area of ‘sandwich’ protection which was designed to be superior to that in Ark Royal.
junior trench
of course there is always the option for fighter interception... but the RN both lacked fighters in quantity and quality
... and the direction wasn't very good despite being the """best"""
subtle prawn
As rearmament gathered momentum in the mid-1930s, approval was given in the RN’s 1936 building programme for two aircraft carriers as well as two battleships and seven cruisers. The aircraft carrier section within DNC was working close to capacity at the time on the detailed drawings for Ark Royal, and its initial proposal was to build virtual repeats with the benefit of an extra 1,000 tons to bring them up to the actual London Treaty limit of 23,000 tons, rather than the proposed limit of 22,000 tons against which Ark Royal had been designed. However, Admiral Sir Reginald Henderson, the Third Sea Lord and Controller, Admiralty Board member responsible for new construction, was determined not to build further Ark Royals because he regarded the design as being vulnerable to air attack by land-based bombers in the confined waters of the North Sea and Mediterranean. Henderson had commanded Furious and served as the first Rear Admiral Aircraft Carriers between 1931 and 1933, which gave him greater knowledge of carriers and their operation than his contemporaries, and he translated this into his demands for the new generation of ships that was intended to replace the earlier carriers. He forced the design work forward with unprecedented speed, instructing W A D Forbes, head of the aircraft carrier design department, who had just completed work on Ark Royal, to begin work after an informal briefing and before a detailed staff requirement had been prepared. Sir Arthur Johns, the Director of Naval Construction, was sick at the time and was in fact never to return the Branch. His deputy, Fred Bryant, ran DNC in his absence. The design of such vessels would conventionally have taken about two years, but Henderson’s pressure led to a design being prepared in less than three months.
junior trench
... and the direction wasn't very good despite being the """best"""
which is how you get things like Illustrious getting surprised by 32 dive bombers in the med, despite fighter CAP being up, and firing thousands of rounds of 4.5" to shoot down 4 aircraft and taking 8 bomb hits
loud comet
is colossus-class & majestic-class carriers have the same design?
subtle prawn
The last six of the light fleet carriers ordered in 1942 were modified early in their construction to allow the operation of heavier aircraft. The flight deck was strengthened to take aircraft up to 20,000lb, and larger lifts 54ft long and 34ft wide were installed. Internal subdivision was modified to improve survivability, and improvements were made to the standard of accommodation, including partial air conditioning and the provision of cafeteria-style dining halls for junior rates and more spacious sleeping areas in mess decks. The close-range armament was standardised as power-operated 40mm Bofors in twin Mark 5 and single Mark 7 mountings. The radar outfit was also improved, and was to consist of Type 281BQ, Type 293Q and two separate Type 277Q installations, one forward and one aft on the island. The ‘YE’ beacon remained the standard aircraft homing aid. Avgas stowage was increased to over 100,000gal in some ships, and electrical generation capacity was doubled. Nothing could be done to bring the flight deck up to the strength required for projected postwar aircraft, but the lifts and hangar deck were strengthened to take static aircraft up to 24,000lb. However, 20,000lb remained the heaviest weight at which aircraft could be landed-on.
subtle prawn
is colossus-class & majestic-class carriers have the same design?
The Majestic-class were modified to be to handle heavier aircraft
desert agate
is colossus-class & majestic-class carriers have the same design?
Majestics had a reinforced flight deck and superior aviation handling facilities, they were also heavier and longer
they also generally had better quality construction using superior materials and welds which helped them to stay in service longer
autumn sorrel
Who keeping log on ship when during battle? Is there a specific post for that or most are just after action report?
alpine onyx
Individual stations would keep a log of their own, but I think there would also be someone who writes one for the command
Assuming she ship's/fleet commander doesn't do it himself, like the admiral on Gneisenau did during the engagement with HMS Glorious and her escorts
autumn sorrel
And what about sunk ship like Yamato, are the log of her sinking based on her survivor account?
eternal veldt
Or other witnesses.
But no, actually, it's fairly easy to get the papers off a ship.
autumn sorrel
Hmm, so the inquiry about sunk ship was carry out by their own naval board or after the war?
eternal veldt
What most people would actually do is actually tie down the confidential documents and toss it overboard.
desert agate
its also very much possible to do a wreck analysis to create a report
eternal veldt
After a ship loss, not after the war.
The Royal Navy, especially.
The RN has a rather... Toxic tradition of "court-martialling" their captains after a ship was lost or captured.
If a captain is found to not have "done his utmost to save the ship", naturally, guilty and admonished. This is often where the analysis towards a loss is also done.
desert agate
no primary documentation existed of HMAS Sydneys final battle after she sunk because she was lost with all hands, however after the wreck was found, and using German survivor accounts they were able to create a blow by blow after action report analysing every single hit that she ship took
autumn sorrel
If a captain is found to not have "done his utmost to save the ship", naturally,...
Sound like IJN lite
eternal veldt
Guess what the modern IJN is based on?
autumn sorrel
USN?
eternal veldt
The britbongs. IJN, not JMSDF.
But yes, removing stuff from a sinking ship is not that hard, provided it is not catastrophic and spontaneous total hull loss.
desert agate
the naval traditions of the JMSDF and IJN are descended from the Royal Navy which gave its command structures and traditions to Japan in the late 19th century
eternal veldt
Or said structure is completely obliterated by damage.
Taihou's crew was able to remove the portrait of Hirohito, and so did Yamato IIRC, despite their seemingly dramatic destruction
autumn sorrel
Would the report on ship sinking get top priority? Like their reason of sinking and what was the action that lead to the sinking?
eternal veldt
Depends on how important the ship is
Capital ship? Very much so.
A smaller, expendable DD? Probably less.
The 3 New Orleans lost at Savo, for example, was studied upon quite quickly.
Same for 
after Kula Gulf, IIRC.
desert agate
savo
autumn sorrel
Hmm, I will take a guess but USN and RN are the one who take their report seriously and IJN just swept all under a rug?
frigid karma
Hmm, I will take a guess but USN and RN are the one who take their report seriou...
not really, did you get that perception from the midway coverup?
patent pelican
Nobody wants to be the guy that loses 2 billion dollars worth of equipment. Talk about a bad day at work.
eternal veldt
The Tomozuru and Fourth Fleet incidents pre-war, which led to severe loss of life and heavy damage to many IJN ships, were quickly examined upon.
autumn sorrel
not really, did you get that perception from the midway coverup?
I only just remember the 4th fleet incident
desert agate
thing about the IJN is that it takes a long time for lessons to be effectively absorbed by the fleet
eternal veldt
And instantly led to the rebuild of many ships.
patent pelican
thing about the IJN is that it takes a long time for lessons to be effectively a...
Why's that?
eternal veldt
Takao, Atago, the entire Mogami class, the entire Hatsuharu class, on top of my head.
desert agate
institutional resistance to change
desert agate
no one wants to tell their senior officer that they're wrong about something
much less so if that officer can have you shot for it
patent pelican
They called their ship washing board?
eternal veldt
Nah, just making fun of Ryuujou's appearance
frigid karma
more of a wows meme
eternal veldt
Flush deck with no bridge
patent pelican
oo
eternal veldt
It came from Canned Coal
desert agate
during the Indian Ocean raid there was an incident where a squadron of Blenheim bombers was entirely undetected by Kido Butai until after bombs started exploding around the ships
eternal veldt
And yes, doctrine also had to do with the seemingly slow changes
desert agate
6 months later the critical flaw in IJN doctrine was not rectified leading to the destruction 1st and 2nd cardiv at Midway
eternal veldt
For example, even though oxygen torpedo tubes have exploded a few times, you really can't ask the IJN to take those off their DDs and frontline cruisers.
It's their bread and butter.
autumn sorrel
So the IJN still learn after midway, why did they not notice the ineffective system of training pilot or they believe is it better for them that way?
patent pelican
For example, even though oxygen torpedo tubes have exploded a few times, you rea...
Was the risk really that high?
eternal veldt
Midway's not the battle that really killed aviators off
The meat grinder that is Santa Cruz and Guadalcanal is
Most of their aces are on the frontline, while the USN gradually had some returned to a training instructor role
frigid karma
same problem with the germans
autumn sorrel
Hmm, do they have any move to improve the situation or just keep doing the same thing and hope for different outcome?
desert agate
Japans system of pilot training was not especially ineffective it just didnt scale very well
frigid karma
did they even have the pilot quantity to facilitate a cycling out of pilots?
eternal veldt
Furthermore, evidence points to the crew being aware of Taihou's gas problem and were frantically trying to unfuck their ship
desert agate
Japanese pilots coming off training in the 1st half of 1943 were not terrible pilots
eternal veldt
Until someone stepped their boots too hard and blew the whole ship apart
desert agate
they just werent good enough
eternal veldt
Some of the planes are also gettin obsolete due to newer models
autumn sorrel
Until someone stepped their boots too hard and blew the whole ship apart
Wasn't it the chief of damage control order to vent the gas throughout the entire ship?
eternal veldt
And the US basically putting AA everyfuckingwhere
Cleveland and Fletcher dying noises
desert agate
Hmm, do they have any move to improve the situation or just keep doing the same ...
gradual changes were implemented by IJN command but they were slow and generally not at the scale required
for example it wasnt until 1943 where Japan put portable pumps on its ships and trained crews on their use, and even then there was rarely enough to make a difference
eternal veldt
Wasn't it the chief of damage control order to vent the gas throughout the entir...
Yes. To disperse the gas.
It was realized to be not a good idea, so they immediately opened as much stuff to get the gas out of the ship asap.
eternal veldt
gradual changes were implemented by IJN command but they were slow and generally...
"I'm telling you, our merchant marine is dying, the submarines and air force is taking our tankers out 5 at a time, we need more Kaibokans"
frigid karma
*Cleveland and Fletcher dying noises*
ironic, as not a single cleveland was lost
eternal veldt
"Shut the fuck up, when the fuck is our next Unryu?"
frigid karma
but they did all get replaced by basically 'cleveland but not weight fucked'
eternal veldt
Just strip the AA and its fine
And its not just weight, the more AA you put on, the more crew you need
The ships generally get unpleasantly cramped, as it is often a critique towards the South Dakota class.
And remember, due to flooding hazards, US generally welded every hull porthole shut or simply not add any in the first place starting in 1942
So you have artificial air ventilation only
Must smell like shit.
Also, on damage control of IJN, they learnt, perhaps too fucking much
Jun'you had every wood table in their crew mess removed because of flammability
Entire paints sections scraped and repainted because it wasnt flameproof
autumn sorrel
gradual changes were implemented by IJN command but they were slow and generally...
Hmm, so they make the change but unable to match the circumstance they found themselves in. The same go for the aviation arm I guess, did they lower req and shorten the training or expand the program but keep the system as before?
eternal veldt
You want lunch? Grab your own tatami mat from that fireproof locker.
Make sure to put it back it too, or else...
spiral cedar
Training programs for pilots did get abbreviated during the war, yes
Certainly Sakai did not think highly of the changes—he considered those who had flunked out of the original course to have been better than the graduates of the new one
eternal veldt
To be fair, Japan is quite pressed on time and resources
The longer the war dragged on, the worse the outlook is for the Japanese
spiral cedar
Pilot training is one of those things where if you don't have a good system in place before the war, you're going to get screwed during the war
USN wargaming taught them they needed a system to replace the expected heavy pilot losses
The IJN and RN did not
autumn sorrel
Wargame, yeah I know about USN Fleet Problem, IJN don't have similar thing to teach them what to expected?
eternal veldt
The Kido Butai's performance IIRC initially over China wasn't great either
Spent a couple years and they got good
spiral cedar
Wargame, yeah I know about USN Fleet Problem, IJN don't have similar thing to te...
They did, but lessons from them were often...selectively interpreted
autumn sorrel
How so?
spiral cedar
The whole IJN was built around the ideas of Interceptive Operations followed by the Decisive Battle(s). The Interceptive Operations would weaken the advancing US main force until it reaches the western Pacific, where Japan could concentrate its assets to defeat it decisively in a Decisive Battle
For decades they spent their entire navy's efforts on this one concept, designing ships and training a generation of sailors and officers on the idea
Problem was, they couldn't get it to work, even in the wargames
They...
Ignored that
autumn sorrel
That's dumb!
autumn sorrel
Nobody even think of pointing that out, not even the higher up?
frigid karma
especially not them
considering you're the one leading these reforms for muh decisive battle
frigid karma
But they really, really wanted it to work, so they hoped it would
alfred t. mahan 5d chess strat to cripple geopolitical enemies of USN 40 years in the future with questionable doctrines in practice
spiral cedar
alfred t. mahan 5d chess strat to cripple geopolitical enemies of USN 40 years i...
In fairness, the USN was overall very Mahanian
autumn sorrel
I think they read Mahan, read about decisive battle and think this is it and not bother to think what happen after
frigid karma
i mean, yeah
spiral cedar
They didn't just read Mahan, they made him required reading for all their officers 
autumn sorrel
Funny thing, I am currently reading a soviet navy officer essay on Mahan
spiral cedar
How is it both OC and Enty
frigid karma
How is it both OC and Enty
it's his oc of enty
spiral cedar
As in, not AL Enty?
eternal veldt
spiral cedar
Lovely
eternal veldt
A cluster of cruisers moored in Pearl Harbor, 12 December 1943, after returning from the Tarawa invasion. The berths shown, near to far, are C-3, C-4, C-5, and C-6 for the cruisers, plus X-6, X-7, X-8, and X-9 in the background. At berth C-3 are a trio of New Orleans-class cruisers, with Minneapolis (CA-36) nearest, New Orleans (CA-32) herself in the middle, and San Francisco (CA-38) outboard in the distance. Berth C-4 serves USS Indianapolis (CA-35) with Baltimore (CA-68) along her port side. Santa Fe (CL-60) and Mobile (CL-63), the original "Mighty Mo," are at C-5. The Atlanta-class cruiser Oakland (CL-95) has C-6 entirely to herself.
USS Phelps (DD-360) is at berth X-6, with the destroyer tender Prairie (AD-15) next at X-7. Though not readily visible, the destroyers MacDonough (DD-351), Maury (DD-401), and Mullany (DD-528) are nested alongside. Morris (DD-417) and Bache (DD-407) populate berth X-8. The assault transport Gemini (APA-75) rounds out the photo at the upper left, sitting at berth X-9.
It's interesting to note the anti-torpedo protection in this section of the anchorage. Nets surround berths C-3, C-4, C-5, and X-7 - basically any cruiser berth with multiple ships, and the destroyer tender nest. By the lack of netting at C-6, Oakland was apparently not deemed to be as inviting of a target as the more versatile heavy and light cruisers to starboard.
From Haze Gray History, as usual.
eternal veldt
Minneapolis painted in something special too
the very short lived Measure 8
"I'm totally a DD, trust me bro"
maiden citrus
destroyer leader+++
desert agate
whose the ocean liner looking one?
eternal veldt
Praire?
desert agate
ahhh lmfao
eternal veldt
Man, Maka is eating good these couple days
eternal veldt
Yes, Idaho
maiden citrus
is that a challenge
eternal veldt
Funny, because Idaho is my favourite new mex as well
maiden citrus
eternal veldt
okay for reals, this hurts
valid trout
Man, Maka is eating good these couple days
Why do I only see three turrets or am I dented
valid trout
<:BuckyPrideZoom:911042553221107714>
What happened here
eternal veldt
fourth turret
eternal veldt
What happened here
Scrapping of Richelieu at La Spezia.
zealous vine
What's with British CVs being shorter than those of other nations?
spring briar
<:BuckyPrideZoom:911042553221107714>
lime belfry
I just read the history of the new Chinese CVL, Huajian
and honestly it sounds like a NTR plot
she changed owners like 10 times
eternal veldt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Mendip_(L60) guess this one is an NTR plot too? 
rapid junco
fierce sparrow
frigid karma
lime belfry
New Chinese CVL was an Austro Hungarian merchant ship but got captured by Chinese Navy during WW1
then lent to an American company
then bought back by Chinese
then lent to a Chinese company
which lent to a Japanese company
which lent to another Japanese company
they sued each other and she was sold to Chinese again
then she got captured by another Chinese warlord
which lent her to a chinese company
then she got captured by the Japanese
and finally sunk by US carriers in 1945
That peak NTR plot
shrewd pecan
azur lane fans when a early 20th century merchant vessel has a average early 20th century service life
subtle prawn
stiff sinew
What's with British CVs being shorter than those of other nations?
They were designed with the situation in mind that they also need to be able to fit into smaller yards in their pacific and indian reaches of their empire.
They can't always recall their carrier back to Europe bcs they stubbed their toe if you want. Maintenance needs to be able to be conducted in there.
subtle prawn
unborn wyvern
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uRt6OXF43c
me as a Canadian
shrewd pecan
sullen canyon
me as a Canadian
then the ptsd sets in
eternal veldt
Ships of the 3rd Battle Squadron in line ahead, 1918. HMS Orion, HMS Monarch, HMS Conqueror and HMS Thunderer taken from HMS Queen Elizabeth.
spiral cedar
At last, decent shells
ivory ridge
i was looking at jane's 1938 to find info about Ting An
found this
Look at the bottom left
41.6 knots Freccia class? 
frigid karma
the brits took the Color/colour debate too far
@humble mulch
it's just a dated term for the nation
ivory ridge
whoever had this book was really focused on her new name 
same for murmansk
cursive cyrillic 
ivory ridge
for a moment i thought this book was written over during the war and whoever had it was keeping track of sunk ships
frigid karma
war has changed
ivory ridge
but the russian names clearly prove otherwise
the 1938 pdf doesnt have an index unike the 1933 so im just scrolling looking for china
yeah nvm same pic
but at least this proves that she was still there
in 1938
humble mulch
frigid karma
shut wren
eternal veldt
shut wren
very interesting
frigid karma
<:MurmWat:839635014256951296>
lotsa info on potential chinese ships here
includes
chen hai, the two new chinese ships, and two more seaplane tenders
wei sheng and teh sheng
shut wren
we launch seaplanes from the onboard catapults
manic latch
Wehrmacht soldiers ferry horses across a water barrier during the Yugoslav operation. Sturmbootmotor 39 is used as a propeller.
ivory ridge
Italy ship gave to China ?
Beofe ww1 the trieste shipyards were building a class of light cruieers for china
They were never completed
Which technically wasnt Italy back then
manic fractal
Which technically wasnt Italy back then
during the war for Japan vs China? they canceled it
ivory ridge
During ww1
Because the shipyards were captured by Italy, then recaptured by AH, then the project was cancelled post war
Number 64 class were 3 ships 1.8k tons armed with 4 120mm guns
Number 68 was a single 4.5k ton ship armed with 4 203 and 12 120mm
Technically both protected cruisers but 68 had an armored belt
ivory ridge
Etna class in AL when?
Cute little things, but they probably wouldnt be good in AL
But i would like the 65mm AA gun ingame
Cute gun
modern dagger
does anyone have history information about Ting An, i can't find anything related to that name
spring briar
yeah nvm same pic
This is like the only thing janes is good for
Finding obscure ships
modern dagger
https://new.qq.com/rain/a/20220601A06T0Z00
thank you, appreciated
tribal mortar
Just curious, can irl submarines engage in a direct combat with other submarines?
eternal veldt
A few submarines were torpedoed by another submarine while on the surface.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Venturer_(P68) Venturer is notably the only sub to sink a sub while both were submerged.
chilly osprey
Actually, quite a lot were torpedoed on the surface by submarines
The British were particularly proficient at doing so
Submarine fights were usually cases of 'one sub ambushes another on the surface with torpedoes', usually either sinking them in the first salvo or. of they fail, engaging in a running gunfight while each tries to get a shot off with torpedoes on the other.
maiden citrus
before wv 44
frigid karma
41 is before 44, yes
maiden citrus
wv 44 was promised years ago
spring briar
eternal veldt
wv 44 was promised years ago
You see Maka, it's too hard to reverse engineer California
literally just take her model, delete two bofor tubs, reduce chonkiness of top level of tower mast, put four colorado turrets down
"Sorry, no can do"
Please continue eating shit with your appalling 35 second reload
frigid karma
I mean
subtle prawn
WV 44 is in the mobile version of WoWS
frigid karma
Florida is just an objectively better california i think
eternal veldt
with a very potato quality model, yes
I mean, I don't know what WG is smoking
California's original reload is 28 seconds, perfectly reasonable
Then they bonked it, and bonked it again
It's the same shit with Dupleix
Everything I like gets nerfed
subtle prawn
delicate beacon
Need to find out more about the ROCN's WW2 era Dutch guns, the 150mm gun of Yat Sen (Yi Xian) and the 75mmL40 "Dutch Krupp" guns. If anyone has pointers hit me.
spiral cedar
eternal veldt
The New Jersey Retrofit horde draweth near
delicate beacon
I need some sources on the history of Krupp and Bofors 
frigid karma
The New Jersey Retrofit horde draweth near
retrofit? why not UR aux
spread the love
eternal veldt
frigid karma
"there are a hundred reasons why turning this key won't launch a nuclear weapon"
"so we don't blow up your hometown"
👀
manic latch
Her class was limited to 9 nuclear shells
Imagine if Iowa's turret explosion happened while test firing the nuclear shell
spiral cedar
“Nine W23 warheads. More than enough to kill anything that moves.”
Don’t think you can trigger a nuclear explosion just by a flash of flame, though. In fact I doubt the shell wall would be breached
manic latch
thorn trail
Don’t think you can trigger a nuclear explosion just by a flash of flame, though...
nuclear weapons are insanely hard to trigger accidentally
spiral cedar
The gun-type W23 warhead is probably easier to “accidentally” set off than an implosion-type or alarm-clock type, but still quite unlikely, yes
Certainly a flash of flame from a single charge’s worth of powder deflagration ain’t enough
thorn trail
even as a gun type it would be difficult. you are more likely to fizzle out and scatter radioactive material
eternal veldt
oi, Riche, remember you mention something about that Lorelei film with basically a Japanese Surcouf
The mission, as revealed by the grim Chief of Staff Asakura (Shinichi Tsutsumi) following the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, is to intercept U.S. ships transporting a third nuclear weapon to Tinian Island, the principal base from which American B-29s are striking the Japanese home Islands. The man charged with the mission is Commander Masami (Yakusho Kōji) - a brilliant destroyer of enemy ships relieved of his command when he opposed the Navy's increasing reliance on suicide tactics. Given a last chance to redeem himself, he is burning with zeal, but is ignorant of the various secrets the I-507 carries on board.
Once at sea, Lt. Takasu (Ken Ishiguro), the owlish technician in charge of the imaging system, refuses to tell Masami what it is or how it works. Masami also discovers that two crew members belong to the Kaiten suicide corps. He has no idea why they are there, and neither, for the moment, do they.
Meanwhile, the U.S. Navy is tracking the I-507 with more than usual interest. A teenage girl (Yu Kashi) is part of the master plan and one of the minisub pilots (Satoshi Tsumabuki) becomes her protector.```
This is some serious copiumwasn't the total production run 50 406mm nuclear shells
thorn trail
https://news.abs-cbn.com/news/11/24/22/us-military-poised-to-return-to-subic-bay
I wonder if our military has maintained the infrastructure in subic bay
Because last I checked most of the old subic bay base is now commercial infrastructure
same for Clark Air Base, which as of rn iirc is an international airport
fierce sparrow
nuke keys. . .
spiral cedar
As the return trip began, in the strange way that sailors have of sharing solid information and rumors, word went out about a number of disquieting factors: There were thirteen ships in the line and the numerals of Task Force 67 add up to 13. The sailors aboard Fletcher, the thirteenth ship in the column, had two more numbers to add: The destroyer's bow number was 445, which adds up to 13, and she had a total of thirteen 5-inch, 40mm, and 20mm guns aboard.
After midnight it would be Friday, November 13.
covert timber
USS Samuel B.Roberts DE-413, the destroyer escort that fought like a battleship.
"This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can." - Lt. Commander Robert W. Copeland - Commander of Samuel B. Roberts - Battle of Samar
USS Johnston (DD-557), the destroyer that made a heroic last stand for the landing forces.
“This is going to be a fighting ship. I intend to go in harm's way, and anyone who doesn't want to go along had better get off right now.” - Commander Ernest. E. Evans - Commander of Johnston - Commissioning day of 27 October 1943, at Seattle, Washington.
cunning sundial
zealous vine
If a destroyer were to be close enough, can depth charges deal damage? (Let's say they were set to the highest possible depth)
ivory ridge
They are still explosives
Look at what happened to dunkerque when a destroyer next to her had her depth charges detonated on board
eternal veldt
not a DD, PT boat
Though I guess Mogador did blow her stern clean off (and miraculously her shafts surviving)
Also, there are numerous instances of ships destroying themselves due to their on board depth charges exploding
ivory ridge
Close enough
eternal veldt
Ingraham DD-444's depth charges exploded after being rammed by a tanker; the cruiser Bahia's own AA guns accidentally shot her own depth charges and sank with massive casualties
The real nasty thing, however, is if the ship is going down, and your depth charges have not yet exploded
Once it sinks deep enough, the charges explode, typically killing many men in the water nearby, as Hammann DD-412 experienced
same happened to USS Strong
chilly osprey
The quest to try and figure out the endurance of WWI-era ships continues
Kind of annoying how hard it is to get endurance figures at high speeds for a lot of ships of this era
And then the Italians add in the extra fun of different members of the same classes having different machinery;
Does at least give a good illustration of how crap direct drive turbines were at cruising speed, versus VTE's
subtle prawn
eternal veldt
spring briar
Look at what happened to dunkerque when a destroyer next to her had her depth ch...
Not a destroyer, just a minelaying ship
Haiyaaa
eternal veldt
Why is Riche Uncle Roger now
delicate beacon
Uncle Roger pls gib Krupp funsies
eternal veldt
Why dont you mske a call to Krupp
delicate beacon
Because autism
Are they still around?
I know they have a villa with archive stuff
eternal veldt
Careful with the A word, you dont want to get marine animals after you again
delicate beacon
archive? 
eternal veldt
I believe they are now ThyssenKrupp AG
Saw them making elevators now and other things too
delicate beacon
I need them to give me Project 1047 gun info 
eternal veldt
(Unironically probably more reliable than the piece of shit LG at my workplace)
spring briar
subtle prawn
maiden citrus
ivory ridge
Not a destroyer, just a minelaying ship
spring briar
thorn trail
is the two tall towers funnels?
heavy bay
The two tall towers are cage masts
spring briar
kindred reef
does anyone here know a lot about the soviet navy?
subtle prawn
What about the Red Navy are you curious about?
manic latch
does anyone here know a lot about the soviet navy?
kindred reef
Here is a ship of the Project 50 class, number 853. I have found that it is either called 'Voron' or 'Kunitca' and was wondering which one it is.
manic latch
Here is a ship of the Project 50 class, number 853. I have found that it is eith...
Isnt she Volk?
tough quail
might be a case of renaming spree, though afaik they stopped doing that so often after ww2
kindred reef
Isnt she Volk?
Probably. I just saw this on a website so that is where I got voron and kunitca
spiral cedar
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/104puc7/732_x_471_battleship_dunke...
What is this person saying here
If you have a 15 deg list to port, move some ballast to the port side to increase stability?
eternal veldt
obligatory Texas comment
tough quail
i really wish people didnt know about the texas thing
spiral cedar
Like, checking my copy of the Damage Control Handbook, chapter XVII and XVIII:
17-5. Transverse stability after damage. Except in the case of ships with torpedo-protection systems, a substantial underwater explosion usually results in the entrance of a great mass of water with extensive free surface, the combined result of which is a reduction of stability. The seriousness of stability loss can be gauged by the extent of the free surface, and by the behavior of the ship with respect to list and tenderness. List, or capsizing in the ultimate case, is due to negative GM, or unsymmetrical flooding, or a combination of both. Whatever the cause, list is undesirable. List acts to reduce stability, as well as to make it more difficult to fight the ship.
18-7. Weight additions (or counterflooding). The term counterflooding refers to the practice of deliberately taking sea water aboard in tanks or compartments opposite to the damaged tanks or compartments to reduce both list and trim simultaneously. For example, after damage on the starboard quarter, counterflooding may be undertaken forward and to port. The disadvantage of further loss in reserve buoyancy should be overcome, as soon as possible, by transferring liquids to correct list and trim, and pumping overboard the water taken in for counter-flooding.
- On ships having torpedo-protection systems, the counterflooding of voids (in protective layer) which are opposite the flooded area results in:
a. Rapid removal of list (makes possible maintenance of maximum speed, maneuverability, and resistance to damage, and provides a level deck for gunnery and aircraft operations).
b. Improvement of stability characteristics due to removal of list.
c. Loss of reserve buoyancy due to reduction of freeboard.
Counterflooding the opposite side improves stability by reducing list
As opposed to this comment, which says counterflooding reduces list but reduces stability, and therefore you should put extra ballast on the same size as the list?????
tough quail
it makes dying faster i guess
spiral cedar
Are they trying to Kirishima their ship or something
idk maybe WarshipPorn is into WarshipSnuff
Also slightly concerned that a question about why flooding the 330mm magazines helped limit the damage from the depth charge explosions was answered by saying it acts as counterflooding??
Those main mags are on the centerline so they'd only improve trim if the flooding is on the ass end of the ship
Which for Dunk was not the case
eternal veldt
the 330mm mags were flooded as soon as Ark's swordfishes appeared, IIRC
chilly osprey
Correct
eternal veldt
which did save dunk against Terre Neuve, but that is not flooding the compartments for lists.
spiral cedar
Mhm
thorn trail
remote monolith
Leman Russ.png
proud moat
The famed Mark 1 after a deep modernisation refit
subtle prawn
desert agate
maiden citrus
ours are cooler
spring briar
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/437459414320939008/1064045965213970443/...
Wth
dusky stag
manic latch
Harrier Skyhook
oak shore
just remembered this abomination was an actual thing proposed to the japanese navy
Kaneda's half a million ton super battleship
spiral cedar
Why the army shouldn’t be allowed to draw ships
oak shore
Kaneda was a vice admiral when he drew this
and he went on to become a director at Kure Naval Yards
desert agate
i think jaba was making a joke
solid mango
just remembered this abomination was an actual thing proposed to the japanese na...
Does it have a name or designation? Cause I only know it as Zipangu or Kaneda's design
And I took the name Zipangu from a game so, ye some grains of salt there
dusty kraken
solid mango
It do be a phat phuck
maiden citrus
close enough
spiral cedar
Still have a hull that’s 80% magazines
eternal veldt
Cordite moment again
lavish fable
It do be a phat phuck
what game is this
solid mango
Simpleplanes 
thorn trail
Huh I did not know that there were fast battleship versions of the Montana designed
eternal veldt
Longtana
frigid karma
@chilly osprey
I wanna compile a somewhat comprehensive list of his inaccuracies rather than just bringing up the 5.25" thing and the 'lol italian shells'
thorn trail
360,000 shp at 33+ knots with 6 props
lime belfry
Every ship expert probably has bias toward a certain ship class
Ship has so many variables to account for it is impossible to say for sure which one will win under a circumstance
Ships of the same class could either tank multiple Kamikaze planes ramming at them and refused to die
Or had one blow underneath the water and sunk immediately
lime belfry
But then what is the source when it comes to these takes
I dont think alot of the times actual military intelligence would "assume" their ships will win or lose against a certain ship in a scenario
Because for once you dont assume your opponent to go 1v1 on you, vice versa
So comparing ships purely on stats to decide which one is better depends entire on that person's taste
Source for that would be very rare, if not none existence
alpine onyx
Well, when the stats or attributes cited have no basis in reality, then the source does matter
eternal veldt
I dont think alot of the times actual military intelligence would "assume" their...
Or they do, as the British Admiralty did warn that the QEs and Revenges are not suitable to engage Tirpitz after examining Bismarck's damage control book.
In fact, earlier than that, in the immediate aftermath of Hood's destruction, Renown from Force H was explicitly ordered not to engage Bismarck due to the threat she posed to the ageing battlecruiser.
As for Drach's "Italian inaccuracies", I can only point out the case of him describing VV's dispersion as over 1km wide, which sounds bogus when examined with photographic evidence.
desert agate
He repeatedly mentioned that the Littorios have terrible shells which is wrong since it was just one batch
His Bathurst class video was literally a Wikipedia rip
That's all I've got
eternal veldt
At 1030 hours, report received in RENOWN at 1050 hours, Catalina Z/209 sighted BISMARCK in position 49-33N, 21-47W (the position was 35 miles out) course 150¼, speed 20 knots. At this time Force H was 112 miles at 285 ¼ from BISMARCK crossing the track that the German ship would take for Brest.
RENOWN was the nearest capital ship to the BISMARCK. Battleships KING GEORGE V and RODNEY were 135 miles and 125 miles behind sailing at 21 knots to BISMARCK’s 20 knots so unless she could be slowed down they would never catch up. Now it was all down to ARK ROYAL’s Swordfish.
Admiral Tovey, with the destruction of the HOOD in mind, ordered Somerville not to engage BISMARCK with RENOWN.
lime belfry
Tbf yeah Renown was pretty old
eternal veldt
With the 15"/42 guns as well, which, according to ballistic calculations, don't work well against Bismarck's scheme.
spiral cedar
He repeatedly mentioned that the Littorios have terrible shells which is wrong s...
Not really one batch, moreso that he repeated old myths that ignored that the looser shell tolerances were a) stopped before the war b) not as large as is widely stated c) would not create large dispersions anyway, and then he decided the issue not only persisted into all of WWII but also was so severe that Littorio’s guns were only as effective (by his own ranking) as Dunkerque’s
eternal veldt
Id also note that his video on Taihou having a latex deck is also wrong, but this is a bit of nitpicking and not common knowledge.
Cleve in shambles
lime belfry
french design is weird sometimes
especially when it comes to their military tech
some are ahead of time when some are.... backward
spiral cedar
I dont think alot of the times actual military intelligence would "assume" their...
Not with certainty, but as part of larger battles such calculations were a major part of prewar and wartime wargaming, so it very much was a topic that they cared about at the time
eternal veldt
Care to elaborate?
spring briar
eternal veldt
The French are pretty much forerunners on the naval side, especially related to steam turbines
lime belfry
I dont really understand their large submarine concept
eternal veldt
Why do you think Surcouf is a one off?
lime belfry
like what purpose does it actually serve ?
desert agate
Yeah they weren't fans either
lime belfry
I mean the fact they even tried
lime belfry
and not just draw it on paper, decide that it stupid
desert agate
Decided it was shit and left it
lime belfry
and never bother to touch it again
eternal veldt
Japanese tried port side islands too, which were completr shitshows
Would you argue their tech is outdated?
spiral cedar
<@301343127229300738>
I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s best to “stay clear” of the entire body of work, just specific videos (e.g. AA, battleship guns, 2nd PacSqdrn, etc.) and treat the rest with a serving ladle of salt
lime belfry
Would you argue their tech is outdated?
not that the tech is outdated
spiral cedar
Everyone;s gotta start somewhere
eternal veldt
Truth is, some things just needed to be built, tested, deemed a failure, and then buried forever
desert agate
Submarines were a very new technology no one really knew how to use them and the French, just like everyone else, experimented
spring briar
some are ahead of time when some are.... backward
One area we were backwards in was our subs around 1914 (only backwards compared to germany)
Since german diesels were very good then and french domestic diesels were too unreliable to put on subs so france continued to build steam subs until 1914
lime belfry
it like they made good stuff, then add something that is questionable that kinda create a disadvantage to the thing that made it advance
eternal veldt
cough A38 Valiant
desert agate
Sometimes you have to build a concept to understand whether it's workable or not
lime belfry
I dont argue that the French didnt have good tech
desert agate
See: DDG1000
lime belfry
for the time their DD were pretty advanced
eternal veldt
Here's the thing
lime belfry
maybe a bit of a bias against France but I think even Mogador would be my top 2 best DD in the war
eternal veldt
You have very new fancy tech
spring briar
maybe a bit of a bias against France but I think even Mogador would be my top 2 ...
Not for me
eternal veldt
Youre not sure if its reliable or good in combat
desert agate
And it's not like surcouf inhibited the French navy's combat capability in any way
spring briar
In order to rank dd’s you need to clearly define the ranking conditions
eternal veldt
If it doesnt, kill the project (preferably not the designer like the Soviets did)
spiral cedar
It’s a bit of a nitpick, but he did also get part of this video wrong (admittedly, the only part where he departs from reading off the paper to add his own speculation) which I detail here
spring briar
Dunkerque tried RPC with her main turrets, it sucked ass
The workers at the rpc manufactures were also on strike
eternal veldt
HMS Adventure tried a transom stern
desert agate
They also put a 12 in gun on a submarine
eternal veldt
It sucked the mines backwards after they were laid
lime belfry
I think at least 3 countries tried Rocket AA
desert agate
And they developed a steam powered submarine
lime belfry
and all of them failed
eternal veldt
So rebuild the entire stern
desert agate
I think at least 3 countries tried Rocket AA
The British concept was unique compared to the others
lime belfry
too new of a tech to work
spiral cedar
His battleship gun video is a train wreck though, and it saddens me every time I see it shared on the internet for “educational” value
desert agate
The Americans tried and failed repeatedly to develop an effective fleet submarine
lime belfry
he has certain bias toward 381mm
I think it very strange he thinks it is among the best guns
I mean yeah it very good for the time it was made
but I dont think it the best gun for its kind
desert agate
It wasn't until they figured out the Gatos that they actually got the concept down pat
spiral cedar
It’s just structurally a badly thought out basis of comparisons he used that undermines the whole thing, even ignoring the bad data used
desert agate
When you're dealing with a new technology it can be incredibly difficult how to get the most effective capability out of a given asset
lime belfry
tbf I argue that using barrel life as an indicator of how good a gun is pretty fair imo
spiral cedar
Ah yes, the rate at which a battleship gun elevates and trains is of equal importance to how much armor it penetrates
eternal veldt
The 15"/42 as of 1916 is...
lime belfry
because BB gun is also used for bombardment
lime belfry
so barrel life is pretty darn important
eternal veldt
It's not too hard to fix barrel life problemd
spiral cedar
Barrel life matters differently in different contexts, however
spring briar
Well the secbat exists
desert agate
If you have effective fleet supporting logistics then barrel life is a null factor
eternal veldt
Just reduce the charge
spiral cedar
If you’re only ever a day’s voyage from friendly ports? Short barrel life isn’t all that critical
eternal veldt
As the Italians did with Littorios
spiral cedar
If it’s a month voyage from across the Pacific? It matters a lot
eternal veldt
Charge 1 - Full charge, full on naval combat
Charge 2 - Half charge, training, bombardment
spiral cedar
And yes, shore bombardment put much less per-shell barrel life wear
eternal veldt
And yea, logistics matter
spiral cedar
Example, US 16” HC with the standard HC charge (smaller than the AP charge) caused only 8% of the wear of AP with a standard AP charge
eternal veldt
In a similar vein of ship construction, cruising range matters
For ships like Littorios, shit cruising range is fine because they're expected to operate inside the Mediterranean pond
Do that to a Colorado and Maka will find a guillotine for me
spring briar
When bombarding you also have the time to let your barrel cool off
desert agate
Different fleets have different requirements and will design their assets to meet those requirements to the best of their ability
desert agate
When bombarding you also have the time to let your barrel cool off
water cooled BB guns
2 secs I need to make a phone call to the US navy
eternal veldt
Water cooled BB guns is very no
spring briar
Vs naval engagement where you want high rof on target if possible (look at komandorski island barrel heating)
desert agate
Too much barrel warping from rapid cooling?
eternal veldt
Littorio's barrel outright exploded
spiral cedar
But fundamentally Drach just picks and chooses when he wants to include factors and when to ignore them for unknown reasons. Example, mounts play a vital role in rate of fire, train, and elevation rates, and thus he includes the mounts—but then ignores the mounts when discussion gun accuracy, looking only at accuracy of the guns on the proving grounds and not at all when they are actually mounted in turrets at sea. An entirely arbitrary distinction he doesn’t ever justify
lime belfry
Battleship guns are not machine guns
desert agate
Yes it was a joke
eternal veldt
Too much barrel warping from rapid cooling?
Water inside barrel > more pressure to shell > shell goes explodey
Renown's case is more of bad weather, and water basically pouring into the breech and into the magazine
spring briar
Too much barrel warping from rapid cooling?
Gun barrels have to be too thick in order to sustain stressed of firing
The thicker the barrel, the harder it is to cool
So attempting to cool it in most waist places immense heat on components that cant be cooled
Which causes stress fractures and then death
desert agate
Fun
eternal veldt
Machine gun BB?
Okay buddy, time to call up Kentucky Scheme H
Where is your god now?
remote monolith
Machine gun BB?
turbolaser moment
spiral cedar
Machine gun BB? Okay, call up ships with .50 cal MGs 
lime belfry
.50 cal > Bofor. Hot take
shrewd pecan
autoloaded 16 inch guns
eternal veldt
.50 cal > Bofor. Hot take
Fine and dandy until a certain Japanese decides to use his plane as his weapon
spiral cedar
spring briar
We are all limited by thermodynamics
spiral cedar
No, .50 was never dandy for WWII AA use
spiral cedar
Mostly for crew morale purposes
eternal veldt
Emotional support AA
lime belfry
probably more effective than the 25mm anyway (Jk)
eternal veldt
But yea, 12.7mm isnt even good enough to deter an attacking plane
lime belfry
just quad .50 cal everything
desert agate
Different fleets have different requirements and will design their assets to mee...
But yes back to this
There is no one size fits all capability requirement for a fleet to have
There are certain fundamentals but those fundamentals can be modified to meet a fleets requirements
Ships need engines but if you want all your ships to go the same speed so they can operate together better then you don't need as much displacement dedicated to machinery to get a ship to go fast allowing you to invest in better armour ala USN circa 1910s
You don't need range if you're operating exclusively in a closed sea in which your nation is smack bang in the middle so put that displacement elsewhere ala Italy
Etc etc
spiral cedar
Not enough range is the bigger issue
eternal veldt
Fucking quad 12.7mms
spiral cedar
The closer the enemy feels comfortable pressing their attack, the higher accuracy it is
desert agate
Brits loved their .303
spiral cedar
.50 just has too short of effective range
lime belfry
I dont know, Quad machine gun would unironically work well against Swordfish
check mate, MG haters
desert agate
So use quad auto cannons
spiral cedar
The real Swordfish killer is the Chicago Piano 
eternal veldt
Or, just use a heavy AA and blast the swordfish to kingdom come
As 6 of them found out during the channel dash
shrewd pecan
🤨 40 MM Bofors wins any AA argument purely through the existence of VT fuses
desert agate
8inch guns are the superior AA gun
eternal veldt
40mm has no VT in WW2
lime belfry
yeah, the Swedes made too good of a gun
eternal veldt
The smallesr VT for WW2 is 76mm
alpine onyx
Sorry Silver, but 105mm trash breaks immediately when touching water, argument invalid
lime belfry
127mm has VT
eternal veldt
And no, swedish bodors is dogshit
lime belfry
Bofor ? nah
spiral cedar
The real Swordfish killer is the Chicago Piano <a:TapNoggin:845453311700238346>
The 1.1” shells were fitted with such sensitive fuses that they reportedly detonated upon hitting raindrops (which meant they weren’t that effective during rain…)
eternal veldt
The US basically redesigned the entire gun from the ground up
spring briar
If you think about it
Humans all have VT fuzes
eternal veldt
The original instructions needed something like "drill to fit" and "file to fit"
Absolutely unacceptable for mass production
spiral cedar
It should be noted that the USN considered the original Bofors Model 1936 design to be completely unsuitable for the mass production techniques required for the vast number of guns needed to equip the ships of the US Navy. First, the Swedish guns were designed using metric measurement units, a system all but unknown in the USA at that time. Worse still, the dimensioning on the Swedish drawings often did not match the actual measurements taken of the weapons. Secondly, the Swedish guns required a great deal of hand work in order to make the finished weapon. For example, Swedish blueprints had many notes on them such as "file to fit at assembly" and "drill to fit at assembly," all of which took much production time in order to implement - there is a story that one USA production engineer remarked that the Bofors gun had been designed so as to eliminate the unemployment problems of the Great Depression. Third, the Swedish mountings were manually worked, while the USN required power-worked mountings in order to attain the fast elevation and training speeds necessary to engage modern aircraft. Fourth, the Swedish twin gun mounting supplied to the USA for evaluation was air-cooled, limiting its ability to fire long bursts, a necessity for most naval AA engagements. Finally, the USN rejected the Swedish ammunition design, as it was not boresafe, the fuze was found to be too sensitive for normal shipboard use and its overall design was determined to be unsuitable for mass production.
eternal veldt
But yes, tato, they were developing the 3"/50 RF because of Kamikazes
spiral cedar
Absolutely unacceptable for mass production
Incidentally, the reason why Japan couldn’t mass produce their own Bofors from captured examples. It took US industry to turn it from an outlier weapon to a mainstay
eternal veldt
A 40mm needed a direct hit to blow a plane apart
spiral cedar
‘Course, probably also true of the VT fuze, come to think of it
eternal veldt
76mm with VT can do the same without doing so
shrewd pecan
I was thinking of it in the cold war/modern mindset
lime belfry
poor Soviet 37mm
shrewd pecan
where everything has proxy fuses
eternal veldt
Incidentally, the reason why Japan couldn’t mass produce their own Bofors from c...
Broke: Japaness bofors
Woke: Japanese homemade VT fuze, which did work
desert agate
I like the wacky Japanese B-17s
lime belfry
then it became a god tier AA guns against pretty much 90% of USN and USAF planes
spring briar
Woke: Japanese homemade VT fuze, which did work
shrewd pecan
real only advantage you could give the M2 for naval use is the ability to throw it wherever
spring briar
I don’t trust shiki
eternal veldt
Why the sceptism?
lime belfry
real only advantage you could give the M2 for naval use is the ability to throw ...
put it on gunboats because they were too small for bigger caliber anyway
spring briar
Why the sceptism?
Where source
shrewd pecan
depends on where on the gunboat
lime belfry
some early US gun boats mounted twin Lewis guns which is ehhh
eternal veldt
It was on a forum, which isn't very credible, granted
shrewd pecan
since odds are you could still fit either a bofors or a 20 MM on it
eternal veldt
But much about Japanese stuff are literally language locked, so Im giving the benefit of the doubt
spring briar
I would believe it if I see an american report about it
spiral cedar
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_45mm-46.php
This gun was developed by taking a standard Army 45 mm Pattern 1932 anti-tank gun and placing it on a navalized mount with a semi-automatic breech. The gun was tested in 1934 and was accepted into production but manufacturing problems meant that only a quarter of the guns produced prior to 1935 had automatic breech mechanisms.
This weapon was the standard AA mount on Soviet ships until 1941-42 when it began to be replaced by the 37 mm/67 machine gun. However, it remained in production until 1947. As an AA gun it had limited effectiveness, due to being only semi-automatic and not having a time fuze, thus requiring a direct hit to destroy a target.
Shoutout to the AT gun with impact fuze mounted on a pedestal mount with single-shot loading
lime belfry
tbf American intelligence report isnt always correct
spring briar
I know
lime belfry
it on point but sometimes they just made educated guesses
spring briar
And it usually is very biased against anything non USN
lime belfry
which is the whole point of "intelligence"
desert agate
.50cals found themselves quite handy at bomb alley in the Falklands if for nothing but a deterrent
spring briar
But thats normal
lime belfry
u made educated guesses
shrewd pecan
I mean
throwing a bunch of tracer fire at someone who doesn't intend on taking themselves out on their sortie
can work pretty well
spiral cedar
Richy is talking about the postwar US Naval Technical Mission to Japan where they interviewed the Japanese ordnance personnel
spring briar
Where report
spiral cedar
Which is, of course, substantially more reliable (though not perfect) than wartime or prewar guesses
eternal veldt
I think Sirene made a good point about the 8cm
Not a single photo, barely piss anything about them after looking at them
What the fuck happened
lime belfry
what 8cm ?
desert agate
Best AA guns of the war (the big ones)
spring briar
desert agate
Rip random Japanese Betty you were too good for this 203mm world
lime belfry
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNJAP_3-60_t98.php
Let me check USAHEC
eternal veldt
- I love my 38mm frontal plated turrets with 25mm splinter protection
lime belfry
they gopt a pretty good archive when it comes to AA
spring briar
US army
lime belfry
If there is a naval version of something, chances are the army found one on the ground