history

[spiral cedar]

The bigger guns are escalator-clause compliant, which was fine since Japan left, satisfying the requirement. They just weren’t compliant with the unmodified restrictions

[cinder escarp]

You have to ignore large parts of the ship and its outfit to squeeze SD in the WNT tonnage cap.

[eternal veldt]

And then there's Littorio

Ate the pizza, grew from 35k tons to 40k tons

[patent pelican]

At least it's a pretty ship

[eternal veldt]

A solid BB too, with caveats, of course

[thorn trail]

How good were the original SoDaks vs the SoDaks actually built

[spiral cedar]

The OG SDs were sort of intermediates between the prewar/wartime designs and the early postwar size escalation

[zealous vine]

The 1929 version right? 4x3 16"?

[spiral cedar]

So they are bigger than the WWI ships but not as big as stuff like G3/N3 or Amagi/Tosa

1920

[eternal veldt]

The chief caveat of SoDak if I recall was the internal belt and weaker TDS, if I recall?

[zealous vine]

Right

[cinder escarp]

The SoDaks are as good as you can get within cheating distance of pretending to be WNT compliant. Their biggest issue, by far, is how fucking cramped they are.

[thorn trail]

So how do they compare to the later SoDak

[cinder escarp]

I've seen it memed as battleship.zip for a reason

[eternal veldt]

That's kinda the point

Squeeze it together, tonnage saved

[spiral cedar]

The later ones are significantly better armored and much faster, but less heavily armed. Different priorities and technology at play

[eternal veldt]

Use it for belt

[cinder escarp]

The 1920s SoDaks are basically just a second generation standard

[thorn trail]

roughly the same tonnage right?

[cinder escarp]

The '20s SoDaks are... achingly slow but exceedingly well protected and armed for their day. Also were turbo-electric unlike inferior treaty ships.

[patent pelican]

Out of the ship designs from all nations of the 1920s that were halted because of the WNT, which one of them do you think would have been the best if construction went through?

[cinder escarp]

For a clear battleline duel? N3, no question.

[spiral cedar]

Very roughly. But yes

[cinder escarp]

She's not fast, in any way.

[eternal veldt]

South Dakota drives a very hard bargain.

[cinder escarp]

But N3 has absolutely crazy armor values and great armament.

[zealous vine]

So..
USN with their AA suite
MN with efficient engines
IJN with quality optics

[eternal veldt]

It was the reason why the IJN shat their pants, and decided repeat Tosas are not going to work.

[spiral cedar]

Well, meme shells for IJN really

[eternal veldt]

So, Amagi, Kii, etc. Gotta bankrupt the nation to face the SoDak 1920s.

👍

[thorn trail]

the og SoDak or the newer ones?

Ah 1920s

[eternal veldt]

Also why the No. 8/13s are on the table

[spiral cedar]

The Japanese optics were good but mostly in the realm of night optics. Other countries had excellent optics as well, e.g. Germany’s high-magnification rangefinders, so I wouldn’t say it’s the most standout

[cinder escarp]

Like, the deck protection scheme of N3 sums up the ship pretty well. It's just a flat 203mm plate (229mm over the torpedo flat). There's not a lot fancy going on, but the brute force more than compensates.

[zealous vine]

I see..

[cinder escarp]

Honestly, the best optical rangefinder setup is likely Littorios. Not because of superb optics quality, they were pretty standard imported units mostly, but because of sheer volume.

[spiral cedar]

The tricky part is that the only post-treaty BBs Japan actually made are the Yamatos

[cinder escarp]

It turns out when you have 22 rangefinders, you get a damn accurate range number damn fast.

[eternal veldt]

I'd go with rudder scuttling charges for Germany, but that's a low blow

[cinder escarp]

The No. 13s would have been excellent ships if Japan still had an economy by the time work was done on them

[zealous vine]

Didn't the Frenchies do something similar?

[patent pelican]

Definitely treaty complaint

[eternal veldt]

The stacked director setup is not good.

[spiral cedar]

And as is often the case, the Yamatos did have the longest baselength rangefinders (15 meters) through sheer size rather than, technically speaking, efficiency (though again, they were still good)

[thorn trail]

Question: Why did the US go for triple guns early on most other nations stuck to dual guns until much later

[eternal veldt]

What Sarcasm is refering to the absolutely insane amount of directors placed beneath the bridge section.

[cinder escarp]

There's that, and the fact that even littorio's turrets have multiple rangefinders per turret.

It's goofy

But, it works out well

[zealous vine]

Interesting..

[stiff mauve]

Wasn’t there the Kongo replacement design being considered? Or is it just actually built?

[cinder escarp]

To cram more guns per ton on a ship. Other nations refused to out of stubbornness or reliability concerns.

[zealous vine]

Oh these?

[spiral cedar]

The USN traditionally emphasized protection over (top) speed in their prewar and WWI battleships, so they favored short battleships (shorter armored length means you can concentrate armor over vitals more). This meant you want to keep magazine spaces short (less length to armor), which is why after the New Yorks the USN wanted to fit more guns into a short hull, rather than twins and a longer full for speed (like the UK favored)

[thorn trail]

Other than the KGVs and the french BBs, what other BBs were designed to have quad turrets

[spiral cedar]

North Carolina

[alpine onyx]

The North Carolinas

[stiff mauve]

Alsace?

[thorn trail]

any other?

[cinder escarp]

The British had... an interesting opinion on turret mount design, at least through the immediate post-WW1 years. They had an interesting comment that Bayern's mounts had no provisions to protect against crew sabotage(?!?)

it's tillman hours bb

[spiral cedar]

Of the actually built ships, no

[alpine onyx]

Also guess an exceptional quality of German BBs was that they had way more redundancy present in terms of equipment, basically had at least twice as much of the things that would usually only be present once

[spiral cedar]

But many designs

[thorn trail]

Tillman BBs?

[eternal veldt]

Almost everyone tried quadruple turret BBs between 1920-1940s

[alpine onyx]

So for instance most battleships had one room for their main battery plotters, Germans had two, most competitors had one radio room, Germans had three, etc

[zealous vine]

This russian BB design by Bubnov

[alpine onyx]

Makes them heavier, and bigger, but in exchange more resilient

[stiff mauve]

Germany also had a quad 406

[eternal veldt]

Kongo Daikan is not built.

[alpine onyx]

Those turrets you talk about should be 380s

and there were three designs

[eternal veldt]

It's literally a floating armoured box.

With ends glued on for good measure.

[stiff mauve]

I asked around and the guys at https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/kriegsmarine-central-km-ship-plans-discussion.37568/page-3 confirmed it as 406

[thorn trail]

Speaking of Tillman's BBs, why did they think 6 guns in a turret was ok

[cinder escarp]

Because the designs are something of a laff

They were not going to be built

[eternal veldt]

They're studies of "How much shit can you cram on a BB"

Named as Tillman BBs too because IIRC Senator Tillman was complaining of naval costs

[stiff mauve]

I mean if you thought Tillman was cursed have you seen the 1930 Panamax design?

[eternal veldt]

What, the 1934 Maximum BB?

[stiff mauve]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/373291983751348227/1032334603064725564/image0.jpg

[eternal veldt]

"Can we put a 24" gun on this thing? "
" Sir, we don't have that technology yet, best we can do is 20" "

[thorn trail]

Speaking of theoretical: If BBs were still the main force of the current time (let's say Aircraft carriers didn't takeoff badumps), would they have tried cramming a nuclear reactor into a BB?

[cinder escarp]

Yeah uh, he was being very big brain. He was mad about having to keep paying for new designs and new types of battleships, and just wanted the navy to churn out one "maximum" design that could be built as needed for the foreseeable future.

[stiff mauve]

Ofc; why wouldn’t you want more power

[eternal veldt]

Gibbs: Write that down write that down

Shits out Project 1058.1 later for the Soviets

[spiral cedar]

Nuke reactors aren’t that power dense per ton. They are energy dense (the fuel lasts for a long time) but you don’t get as much immediate power per ton of machinery compared to, say, gas turbines

[stiff mauve]

Wouldn’t have stopped the minmax designers from doing it imho

[spiral cedar]

You kinda need to get rid of guided missiles to make BBs practical to the modern day

[thorn trail]

wouldn't you save on like weight because you don't have to carry a lot of fuel?

[spiral cedar]

No

[thorn trail]

Ah

[spiral cedar]

The USN tried nuke propulsion even on cruisers, which already need long endurance. Wasn’t worth it in the end

[thorn trail]

Were there any plans to make nuclear powered destroyers? Afaik there were CGNs but did they try it on something smaller

[eternal veldt]

Reject nuke

Embrace diesel

[stiff mauve]

So what you’re saying is make more Panzerschiff hulls

[eternal veldt]

Yes, Deutschlands are good.

[alpine onyx]

Way. Of. The. Diesel.

[eternal veldt]

Just don't fuck it up like the IJN did.

RIP Diesel Yamato

[stiff mauve]

Wait diesel Yamato?

[spiral cedar]

Only partial diesel

But yes, that was a preliminary

[alpine onyx]

First thought was full Diesel

but they weren't able to get proper Diesel motors going

[spiral cedar]

Rejected in the end when they went to integral armor for the deck because if it broke down (IJN diesels weren’t trusted to be reliable enough) it would be too difficult to take them out for repairs

[eternal veldt]

Taigei dying noises

[stiff mauve]

What we need is IJN Panzerschiff /s

[eternal veldt]

That's what the USN thought for a while, actually.

[spiral cedar]

IJN makes panzerschiffe
still doesn’t use them against transports and merchants

[eternal veldt]

If Jane's... is an accurate representation of contemporary belief of what's being built.

[spiral cedar]

[cinder escarp]

What if we put full armor over the diesel!

[stiff mauve]

[eternal veldt]

dies to a sub

Now the 🤡 is complete

[stiff mauve]

That’s not very honourable /s

[alpine onyx]

This is what you always wanted

[valid trout]

Champagne is basically a panzerschiffe

[eternal veldt]

Yea, no.

A-X designs were considered by many nations.

[stiff mauve]

I mean if we use that logic then Republique is a Panzerschiff

[valid trout]

In terms of gun arrangements

[alpine onyx]

Gascogne is a Panzerschiff

[stiff mauve]

Panzerschiff Superiority

[eternal veldt]

What made the Deutschlands stand out is the long cruising range and the ability to fuck anything near her displacement

[spiral cedar]

Unless they fucked her first ofc

[eternal veldt]

Well yea... That.

[thorn trail]

Other than Monitors and the Furious "battlecruisers", what were the largest guns put on the smallest displacement as possible

[valid trout]

And the fact that they had 11” guns instead of the usual 8” guns found on heavy cruisers

[alpine onyx]

You mean 20,000nm cruising range is above average?

[eternal veldt]

hides Scheer's armour

[stiff mauve]

Actually does anybody know why they did Hippers with 8 instead of 11”?

[stiff mauve]

Just “a little bit” /s

[alpine onyx]

Because they were jerbaited into doing normal cruisers

[eternal veldt]

2nd batch of Hippers actually contemplated 15cm guns

Would be a good way to bury Shitzig too

[stiff mauve]

Isn’t that Mainz in a nutshell?

[alpine onyx]

Replace Shitzig with MK1938

Thank you

[eternal veldt]

No, Mainz uses the wrong guns

[alpine onyx]

Mainz is kinda there, but only in thought

But wrong guns, torpedoes, superstructure, equipment

[eternal veldt]

See the pinned document

It's like saying Mogameme got 15cm guns

But those guns are the trash from Aganos

(yes yes yes 15.2 vs 15.5cm, shaddup)

[stiff mauve]

I do one better; https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475548208064626689/1051781149871050802/ElbingSchultz.PNG

What could go wrong /s

[spiral cedar]

Replace them all with Type 1936A

[valid trout]

So are the Mogamis supposed to have triple guns or dual guns

[stiff mauve]

Triple 155, Dual 203

[eternal veldt]

Triple, to "oblige" the WNT

[spiral cedar]

As built, triple 15.5cm

They were later rebuilt with twin 20.3cm

[valid trout]

Then why are they dual in wows

[eternal veldt]

The whole plan along was to swap them out for twin 203s

Which they did, once they renounced the LNT

[valid trout]

Ahh ok

[eternal veldt]

Because a 15.5cm gun would make the cruiser a "light cruiser"

[stiff mauve]

Mogami is made from cardboard remember

[eternal veldt]

Japan used up all their heavy cruiser tonnage already, if I recall

So... Yea, totally a light cruiser

And then the US shits out the 6-inch machine guns to counter her

Get fucked Mogami

[spiral cedar]

Britain reluctantly follows suit, giving us some of the more popular RN shipgirls

[alpine onyx]

Not sure why people refuse to use the 15cm twin from the 1936A

It's so precious

[spiral cedar]

[valid trout]

Huh?

[eternal veldt]

And they would have carried even more dakka too

Like a certain PR5 girl

[spiral cedar]

The US response to the big CLs was the Brooklyns, and later the Clevelands

[eternal veldt]

Brooklyn class cruisers,

[valid trout]

Ahh yes 15 6” gun shitters

[eternal veldt]

Helena especially was named the six inch machine gun by the Japanese due to the rate she lobbed shells

[stiff mauve]

Just use triple Wooster turrets /s

[eternal veldt]

Did quite a bit of damage as a bombardment ship

[valid trout]

Did she have a faster reload? Than the other brooklyns

[spiral cedar]

I’m sure Cleveland also calls her that in private

[eternal veldt]

Sorry, not affectionately

[spiral cedar]

No

[eternal veldt]

It was from the sheer terror of the Japanese soldiers that survived her onslaught

[valid trout]

Ahh ok

[eternal veldt]

"The US developed a six-inch MG"

That nickname stuck

[valid trout]

What would happen if you have all the brooklyns in one battle

[eternal veldt]

But yes, Britain saw what rhe US was doing with Brooklyn

[spiral cedar]

Destroyers probably don’t have a fun time

[valid trout]

The japs would have to deal with quite a few 6” machine guns

[eternal veldt]

"OK, put 4 quads on our follow up Town class ships"

"Fuck, the guns dont work, use triples and allocate what's left to armour"

[stiff mauve]

Should’ve done Quad DP imho

[eternal veldt]

And you have

[alpine onyx]

Eh

Dual purpose guns in that caliber range didn't work out until the mid 40s

[spiral cedar]

Problem is DP guns need to track rapidly moving targets

[eternal veldt]

Putting all the Brooklyns together is probably not a good idea, especially if you don't have any flashless powder

[spiral cedar]

More guns = harder

[alpine onyx]

And were more hassle than worth

[eternal veldt]

The 6"/47 DP was sought by the US ever since 1939

The whole point of Atlanta was to originally make a platform out of such a concepted weapon

[stiff mauve]

Remember we should be minmaxing /s

[eternal veldt]

Can't do it with that technology at the time, so the 5"/38 will do

[alpine onyx]

Japan tried it twice, France tried it once, both failing quite hard, the US tried and got it to work once they got the VT going

[valid trout]

Except they have 5” guns instead

[eternal veldt]

Then they ascended to godhood with the 8"/55 RF

[valid trout]

What ships were the results of the japs and French?

[eternal veldt]

[spiral cedar]

What some call minmaxing, I call “making your battleship 40% powder magazines”

[eternal veldt]

Richelieu, dual purpose 152mm guns

[alpine onyx]

Anything with the 155mm triple and the Aganos for t he Japanese

And Richelieu

[valid trout]

Ahh ok

[alpine onyx]

We shall ignore the 203mm dp attempts by Japan and Great Britain, for their own good

[eternal veldt]

Richelieu's turned slow, and guns were prone to jamming when loading above 45 degrees

[valid trout]

Des Moines guns?

[eternal veldt]

So it was a no go

[valid trout]

Or am I daft

[stiff mauve]

Wait DP 8”???

[spiral cedar]

Yes

[eternal veldt]

Yes

[alpine onyx]

For Richelieu they decided to rather go back to a mixed secondary battery

Than to keep a uniform 152mm dp battery

[spiral cedar]

Though iirc DM herself used a 5” director with 8” cams jury-rigged for her 8” AA capability

[eternal veldt]

There were reliability concerns with the 152, IIRC

Thus off with the wing 152s and on with the ol reliable 100

And they did bite back when the Germans tried bombing her as she escaped Brest

[spiral cedar]

Solution

[valid trout]

USS midway proud

[stiff mauve]

Solution:
Just dodge. duh

[thorn trail]

What was the largest Dual-purpose gun?

[spiral cedar]

Does the Japanese 46cm count

[thorn trail]

no the type 3 shell does not count

[eternal veldt]

Wasn't there an AA chart for the 16"/50

[spiral cedar]

Yes

[thorn trail]

wait

WHAT

[eternal veldt]

And really, any gun is dual purpose once the plane flies low enough

[spiral cedar]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/515583624083406848/697236765832118352/image0.jpg

[thorn trail]

this is for the 16/50 mk7 right?

[spiral cedar]

Yes

[stiff mauve]

So what you’re saying is that the USN cheaped out and didn’t want to go the whole way on this 16” DP agenda /s

[thorn trail]

wait I'm looking at the wiki page for the mk7 and I'm wondering what does the HC shell stand for?

[alpine onyx]

Germans did actively use the 38cm gun on Tirpitz against high level bombers

Pew

[maiden citrus]

daily reminder the 5''/51 has vt fuze aac ammunition

[spiral cedar]

glances at 16” high-angle casemates

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/515583624083406848/709563128991580170/image0.jpg

[spiral cedar]

High Capacity

What the USN calls HE

[eternal veldt]

Dual purpose casemated

[thorn trail]

Ah

[stiff mauve]

We can do better smh; where’s the DP Gustav guns

[eternal veldt]

Unbelievable

Memeing harder than Hiraga

[maiden citrus]

yeah not even aac

[eternal veldt]

More reason to love the standard chomks

[maiden citrus]

VT aac

[thorn trail]

Speaking of HE. Would it be stupid if the HE ammo used on BBs were HESH

[spiral cedar]

Yes

[thorn trail]

How stupid

[alpine onyx]

Yes

Yes

[spiral cedar]

Ships have a lot of compartments, and usually splinter protection behinds the belts

[alpine onyx]

Or in some cases, splinter protection in front of the belt

See SoDak

[spiral cedar]

So sending little bits of metal into flat pieces of steel won’t do much good

[maiden citrus]

this means a dang clemson dd with a 5''/51 can shoot vt aac

[eternal veldt]

Unlike what a certain game portrays, your teak deck burning does not pose immediate sinking risk to your ship

"oh, my unhabitated quarterdeck is on fire"

"Guess my main magazines will just explode"

• ans other jokes you can tell yourself

[maiden citrus]

with of course the best part being there was going to be a 5''/51 twin turret

[eternal veldt]

A shell going through your deck, punching through your compartments, then landing in your important parts and THEN exploding, let's say your boilers, however

[alpine onyx]

Or even just crashing through the boiler without exploding

Because steaaaaaaam

[eternal veldt]

Rip black gang

Everyone is really black now, not because of oil or coal

[valid trout]

wows?

[eternal veldt]

From superheated high pressure steam scalding

[maiden citrus]

texas was going to be amongst the first wave of 5''/51 twins

we were cheated

[thorn trail]

How much damage would a modern day MOAB do against a BB?

[junior trench]

every WW2 US gun with HE ammo 75mm/3" and larger does

[gentle viper]

the US for example had Amazing Radar Fire Control system's and things like VT fuzed AA Shells, + Their battleships were fast as fuck, the Japanese Had Amazing Nightfighting Capacities and a Very Accurate Gunnery (See Guadalcanal and Savo as examples)

I remember reading about a project to convert one of the San Antonio LPD into an Arsenal ship with 288 VLS's

[rapid junco]

Weird discussion
The first comment (among other things) says that the P47s of the 1st Fighter Squadron were "old aircraft and rest of the rest"
I replied saying they wasn't
It's reply was
"But it also isnt a P51"

[junior trench]

you really cannot generalize those kinds of things outside of very hard hardware spec things

[rapid junco]

His last reply
Which was a reply to my reply it made no sense talking about the P51
He said that i'm
"Trying to compare a fat jug with a Lamborghini"

[junior trench]

you'd also need to totally ignore the later half of the Guadalcanal campaign to keep praising the IJN's night fighting as an inherent thing

and the whole rest of the war

[gentle viper]

Its by 1940 tho

also yeah you are right

sorry

"their battleships were fast as fuck"

Standard series battleships reaction to that information:

[junior trench]

1940 also means the IJN has...

no modern BBs in commission

and neither does the USN

but the standards are a hell of a sight better than the Nagatos and everything older

[zealous vine]

Perhaps I didn't quite gauge battleship development well..

Including 1940> *

[alpine onyx]

When something like Fusou exists...

[eternal veldt]

snorts copium

snorts bigger dose

[desert agate]

Kongos were as nice as their armour could take them

[eternal veldt]

having spid is actually good

actually viable as carrier escorts when your slow chicken roasting machine is making 27 knots

[rapid junco]

Speed is armour

[eternal veldt]

Come to think of it, how would an Alaska fare against a bongo?

The US, afterall, did mess about with the cruiser killer designs before settling on Iowa.

[manic latch]

8 356mm

[maiden citrus]

the 5''/51 is a pre ww1 gun, and almost only used in casemates, it's just funny is all

[maiden citrus]

it would almost certainly win pretty handily imo, can't find anything kongo wins on since even alaska's 12'' are kinda nutty and kongo's 14'' are kinda poor

[manic latch]

Kronshtadt war games vs Kongo was well... Kongo usually beat Kronshtadt when it's beyond +16-17km

But when it's below such range, Kronshtadt start to get stronger

Tho only Dunkerques really scared Kronshtadt

[delicate beacon]

Didnt they throw it around on merchants and coastal forts whenever?
Pretty sure I've seen some in Dutch service.

[maiden citrus]

yes

hence almost only, heh

[manic latch]

@spring briar @tough quail

[rapid junco]

Me when i first tasted
Coca cola when i was 4

I don't drink any kind of soft drinks/soda

[alpine onyx]

meanwhile Scharnhorst whose armor is almost tailored to take Kronshtadt's shells, and who will have no issues penetrating Kron's vitals at all ranges that matter

[manic latch]

almost

Also remember, Kronshtadt's last design update was made after getting technical documents of Scharnhorst class with trade

[alpine onyx]

I say almost because of the hump, which gets more dangerous the flatter the impact angle gets (tho it is always a relatively narrow target), otherwise the hull armor is more than suited against high velocity 305s

And well, 230mm belt be 230mm belt, even the rather light 28cm shells get through that at reasonable combat ranges

[maiden citrus]

me neither, burns my mouth

[spring briar]

[desert agate]

i might be a slight coca-cola addict

[subtle prawn]

https://news.usni.org/2023/01/05/romania-buys-naval-strike-missile-coastal-batteries-in-217m-deal

[delicate beacon]

Can anyone help me identify parts of this ship that were used in fabricating this model around 1938.

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP4Vm5_8ZkY

[cinder escarp]

Unmanned vehicles kind of change this

You can finally declare war on the biggest, most critical protected volume of any AFV: the fighting compartment.

[humble mulch]

[kindred reef]

So the Fairey Firefly is from the British Fleet Air Arm, and the spitfire is from the Royal Australian Air Force but they have similar markings on the wings can anyone explain this?

I know that Australia is part of the commonwealth, but it does not make sense why they would share markings with the Royal Navy

[fossil dragon]

The RAAF used to use the RAF type A roundel with the red part in the middle, but their Catalina's in particular kept getting mistaken for Japanese flying boats, so they removed the red dot mid-1942 to avoid confusion with the hinomaru.

pre-1942

post-1942

[delicate beacon]

It's just a theater variation without the red dot, essentially.

[zealous vine]

I realized it awhile ago, why did European navies usually have odd number calibers for their battleships?

E.g. The RN, MN, RM, and KM ships with their 15", and some with 13" guns

Meanwhile, the SSSR, IJN, USN all went by evens, with 14", 16", and 18" (of the IJN ofc)

I get there were some exceptions like KGV, Lion, H-39.. but was there a pattern?

[ivory ridge]

Phoenix made a write up about calibers just a couple days ago

it's mostly a coincidence based on the navies' preference in caliber jump

[zealous vine]

Hot dayum, thanks

[delicate beacon]

Speaking of which, does anyone know of 12" triple turrets?
So far I can only think of the Italian ones

[ivory ridge]

i cant tell if that's a joke or not

[delicate beacon]

Right, Alaska. And there's a couple of Russian Dreads

I was thinking of before 1938 though

[proud moat]

AH dreadnoughts too

[delicate beacon]

Forgot to specify

Hm

[proud moat]

Tegerthoff class of the infamous Viribus Unitis

[ivory ridge]

i thought it was a joke because there are so many

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tvf9louZhLw

[delicate beacon]

As far as triple 12" guns that were built on a ship before 1938, not many.

But it seems that looking for those is a dead end for me

Seems like I'm running out of ways to scale the image from

[ivory ridge]

3 classes of italian ships
3 classes of russian ships
The Austro hungarian ships

it's more than the ones after 1938...

[delicate beacon]

Wait 3 Italian classes?

[ivory ridge]

Dante, Cavour, Duilio

[delicate beacon]

Forgot about the Russian copy

[shut wren]

he wanted to study what napoleon did wrong in his attempt,then make sure not to repeat his mistakes

[frigid karma]

he avoided a massive disaster like trafalgar, and instead sent his capital ships out piecemeal to get slaughtered so wehrbs in 80 years can claim that actually x ship is super powerful and only lost because it was fighting 20 british ships at once

400 iq

[eternal veldt]

Given French training and the incompetent 4head that is Villen*uve, not happening

[shut wren]

He also decided to keep his troops in positions for them to be encircled,stalingrad,and baltic pocket in 44/45

[eternal veldt]

The Spaniards have the most massive ship of the line and still got beaten to shit by two smaller third rates because their crew is incompetent at Cape St.Vincent

Only survived because the other spaniards threatened to fire on her

[shut wren]

I like Ground and air stuff,naval stuff just does not hit for me

[gentle viper]

i am

all the contrary

i struggle with land warfare

im a naval, aviation, and naval aviation guy

[eternal veldt]

You know you fucked up when your ship's captains are tossing maps, telescopes, and wigs at you, and screaming every known French curse at your flagship

[shut wren]

we see naval air, and ground and air but never naval and ground

[eternal veldt]

Almost as if the two services are closely related

When naval and air services don't work together... You get shitty results like Graf Zeppelin

[gentle viper]

imagine not being able to launch your whole airwing in an hour

[frigid karma]

camera pans to IJA telling IJN flat lies about henderson field

[shut wren]

use ground to cut off enemy ports to starve out the ships

[eternal veldt]

That doesnt exactly work if the enemy can just straight up bombard you

Or outright relocate to a different port

[shut wren]

Use ground arty pieces to bombard the ships

[eternal veldt]

Against a moving target?

[shut wren]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amethyst_Incident

it kinda works

[eternal veldt]

That's in a river

Try the situations of say, Saipan

[shut wren]

if they are not too far out

[eternal veldt]

A destroyer can move in close, pump shot after shot into your positions

And when fired upon or out of ammo, just bail out and have another DD fill in

[gentle viper]

or... Fire back!

[eternal veldt]

And if you have massive fortications staring menacing at you

[gentle viper]

Think about Wisconsin

[eternal veldt]

Bring in the big guns or the planes

Even for the Amethyst incident, the Chinese forces suffered quite a bit of casualties

[shut wren]

Anti ship missiles

[eternal veldt]

More importantly, Amethyst got away

[shut wren]

almost did not

used a civilan ship as cover

[eternal veldt]

But she did, that's what mattered

Again, rivers are not exactly the same as an island or coast

[shut wren]

some coastal naval guns can shoot far

[eternal veldt]

Im also more certain that the Amethyst incident would not look as good if air support were called in to support

[shut wren]

they called in 2 cruisers

i think

[eternal veldt]

Scratch bigger ships, London got nailed

River bad

[shut wren]

it was more as a showcase of a sort

like yall cant be in ma river

[eternal veldt]

Thats why Littoral warfare is a separate thing

[shut wren]

Too bad china at the time was dirt poor

no planes n stuff

[eternal veldt]

Do you really want that

A few merchant ships departing from Hong Kong were harrassed by Chinese gunboats

The British answer is to send the Unicorn, point her guns at them, and tell them to fuck off

[shut wren]

not very good times

[shut wren]

which is why China in 1997 said we would take hong kong by force if they would not give it back

[eternal veldt]

Let's not go there.

[shut wren]

yea

alright whats next

[ivory ridge]

[shut wren]

[ivory ridge]

[frigid karma]

tabs in
reads username

[desert agate]

The RAAF did not have its own roundel independent of the Britisb until 1942 after an incident in Darwin just after the bombings where American AA gunners, untrained in identifying British Commonwealth type aircraft fired on a squadron of spitfires coming in to land, as they mistook the red dot on the RAF/RAAF roundel for a Japanese Hinomaru
In 1944 when the British Pacific Fleet arrived in strength and the British began deploying aircraft in significant numbers, they decided to follow the Australian practice and removed the red spots from their roundels

It would not be until 1956 when the RAAF would adopt its signature kangaroo roundel

[desert agate]

Good luck finding a situation where a warship on open sea was successfully sunk by land force artillery
Even at Gallipoli such a thing did not happen

[junior trench]

Wake Island

[desert agate]

Coastal artillery =/= land army Howitzers

Talking about these sorts of things

[eternal veldt]

was about to quote Hayate

but let's be honest, that's more of an IJN moment of her long lances

[zealous vine]

How accurate is WoW's Vermont to american shipbuilding conventions at that time? Was it a probable depiction of a successor design to the 1920 South Dakota?

[eternal veldt]

Vermont is just a bloated Tillman I

However, Vermont has one serious mistake by WG

The navigation bridge of US battleships are often above the conning tower level, not the other way round. Due to how heavy conning towers are, putting them high can affect ship stability.

the result is this tomfuckery

"What's on the horizon, officer?"
"A big fucking bofors tub, sir"

Otherwise, the ship is an acceptable follow-on to the standard class battleships: 23 knots, AB-XY turret layout, as per tradition

[gentle viper]

Hillarious

I have another question: how much fuel does this fucker eat daily?

[eternal veldt]

Depends on what speed you're going at

[gentle viper]

Tillman was one crazy lad

[eternal veldt]

On high speeds, fuel consumptions level die

That's why on average, ships steam around 10-15 knots, if not lower. Very rarely do ships hit their "maximum speeds", unless its combat conditions or otherwise required (Indianapolis hauling her ass across the Pacific to deliver the nuclear bomb parts, for example)

[maiden citrus]

on average standards had pretty good gas miledge due to lower power, relaxing machinery

[gentle viper]

Indianapolis Journey trully is a wild story

[eternal veldt]

and personally, for Vermont, not a fan of that many funnels

[gentle viper]

LLBD did an amazing episode on it

[eternal veldt]

more funnels = easier to tell where the ship's going

[gentle viper]

Also Holy shit its still surprising to think that the CVN's can hit 37+ Knots

[eternal veldt]

so sorry Maka, excuse my crime

[maiden citrus]

nah, better

[gentle viper]

God knows what their top speed really is

[maiden citrus]

some had two funnels, 3 is odd

[eternal veldt]

now it's a bloated lexington

with armour and a lot less speed

[gentle viper]

I will only believe its related to the standards when you add the 6 Gazillion missing Oerlikons

[eternal veldt]

I believe a Chinese proverb is apt for how US AA armament is applied on their ships

"If you see a seam, put a needle in it"

[gentle viper]

American sailors on their way to try and traverse their ship just for the 7 Million Oerlikons in the deck to say "no"

Once you enter a Oerlikon Platform you are not leaving

[eternal veldt]

The problem is, however, cramming that much AA actually affects top stability of a ship heavily

[gentle viper]

You are now subsisting off of 20mm Ammo

Typhoons?

[eternal veldt]

Then you have this big, massive problem

Well, not just typhoons, when a ship gets too heavy, it rolls and pitches too much - worst case scenario, it does capsize in heavy seas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Captain_(1869) and the last thing you need is another disaster like this

[frigid karma]

Cries in Cleveland

[eternal veldt]

But yes, typhoons are a major hazard, as Cobra would show

[frigid karma]

Silver

Remind me again why the Baltis didn’t suffer as badly from top heaviness as the Cleveland’s

[gentle viper]

What amazes me of the USN is Their Logistics

[eternal veldt]

Hull and Monaghan, both Farragut class DDs, have very small displacement

[frigid karma]

They should’ve had the roughly same amount of aa and hull size, right?

[maiden citrus]

heavier units overall, a lot more weight put into balance and sea worthiness

[eternal veldt]

and required massive ballast to weigh them down so they don't flip over

[frigid karma]

I see

[eternal veldt]

^ basically

[frigid karma]

So even though the hulls are somewhat similar, baltis are just bigger

[eternal veldt]

In fact, only CA-68- 71 retained two cranes

[maiden citrus]

it's the only reason the baltis weigh what they do, they have all the bells and whistles

[eternal veldt]

CA-72 onwards, all members had a single crane on their stern to reduce tonnage

[gentle viper]

Good night boys

[eternal veldt]

also, much to horse's annoyance

Spence was lost in Cobra

because her fuel's empty and nothing's weighing her down from rolling and bobbing in heavy seas

[iron wind]

so random question, the theme for sardegna that plays in taranto, what exactly is it from
I know its from somewhere but I forgot where
the melody at least

[gentle viper]

@eternal veldt Do you know about Lions Led By Donkeys? Very cool History Screw ups Podcast

They made some episodes abput the Yamato, Wake, Tarawa, and typhoon cobrs

[eternal veldt]

Cleveland weighs 11k tons, Balimore weighs 13k tons, quite a bit of difference

[gentle viper]

Cobra*

[eternal veldt]

Unfortunately no, don't have much time for Podcasts these days. I could give it a try later.

and on the AA question, it should also be noted that Oerlikons are getting phased out slowly in 1945 due to Kamikazes - it's not good enough to stop a plane from hurtling and smashing towards you

instead, cram more bofors and pray that a direct hit blows the suicidal plane to bits

[tribal mortar]

name me a country that has not recieve any faction from AL but deserves one spot in AL, With historical reason as back up

[kindred reef]

poland

[tribal mortar]

hmmm.... how many UR/SSR/SR you would think of from them?

[kindred reef]

a lot of polish ships were either ex british ships (because commonwealth) so maybe they could do like murm

[tribal mortar]

hmmm... ok...

a bunch of poland style meidos in AL when we get them as faction then

[subtle prawn]

Netherlands

[kindred reef]

honestly just a commonwealth faction would be fine that way we could get australian and irish and such as well

[brisk bay]

Damn I would love a commonwealth faction

[subtle prawn]

(Quick question, @delicate beacon, is it more proper to classify Tromp as a bigger destroyer or small cruiser?)

[desert agate]

the RAN was a vital navy to the allied war fighting in the Pacific and without a doubt deserve a spot in AL
The RAN suffered greatly in WW2 with almost every single one of its pre-war ships being sunk and/or otherwise destroyed, it's ability to reconstitute itself using both foreign and domestic shipbuilding capacity however allowed it to withstand critical blows and support its American allies in ending the threat to the Australian mainland and eventual victory in the Pacific

[alpine onyx]

Austria-Hungary

Gimme an angry SMS Zenta

[tribal mortar]

tbh compared to Australia/Commonwealth faction, which deserves more spot tbh? and historically, why?

[spiral cedar]

Imperial Japanese Army

They built more aircraft carriers than the Kriegsmarine

[tribal mortar]

Hmmm... AL Story team can make some epic battles with RAN Faction event from the sound of this

How many URs/SSRs/SRs that you can think from this faction

[subtle prawn]

The Dutch Navy fought the IJN as part of the ABDA command in the early days of the pacific war, did not go so well, but they tried and that’s all that matters

[tribal mortar]

Hmmmm.... sounds like they do deserves a minor spot tho...

[subtle prawn]

If they let Australia have a few post-war ships, then maybe 3 UR destroyers and a few SSR carriers?

[eternal veldt]

Forget post-war

HMAS Tribals, the entire Amphion sub-class, are all highly contributional ships in the Pacific War

[desert agate]

using present AL ship selection rules any number of capital ships can be selected from HMAS Australia (1911) to HMA Ships Melbourne (UR candidate) and Sydney as carriers, which despite being post-war would both be younger than Centaur thus feasible options in game
as for front liners the RAN operated 3 heavy cruisers, one of which is already in game HM(A)S Shropshire
4 light cruisers HMA Ships Sydney (UR candidate), Hobart, Perth and Adelaide
and a considerable number of destroyers from the 5 members of the Scrap Iron Flotilla, one of which is already in game as HM(A)S Vampire, the Australian Tribal Class, the Australian N class, the Australian Battle Class, and potentially the Australian Daring Class

The possibility of adding the sloops (Destroyer Escorts in USN parlance) such as HMAS Yarra (UR candidate) and even potentially any of the 60+ Bathurst Class Corvettes also exist, Yarra far more likely since Eldridge is already in game, the Corvettes would require a rewrite of ALs ship rules

The RAN only operated a handful of submarines in WW2 being a few old Dutch boats which fled to Australia after the fall of the Dutch East Indes none of which saw combat in Australian service and were mostly cannibalised for parts and/or given back to the Dutch in 1944-45

[eternal veldt]

Love Sydney as I do spon, though, Sydney being UR is a bit too much

especially considering the blunder of her last action

[desert agate]

Sydney is literally the most decorated ship in RAN history

she's literally the Warspite of the RAN

[eternal veldt]

Fair enough

[spiral cedar]

And Warspite isn't UR

[desert agate]

her retrofit makes her UR

[spiral cedar]

Wonder what a Sydney retrofit would look like

[desert agate]

tbh depends on whether they go for Sydney carrier for a full back line or Sydney CL

HMAS Albatross is also an option for a full backline

so it would probably be Australia (BC), Melbourne and Albatross if Sydney use Sydney CL over Sydney CV

which i'd prefer tbh

[tribal mortar]

Oh, while Australia and Dutch both deserve a spot in AL....

I know one nation that has the players of that country hype and wish them to be in AL, I am from that country as well... But, objectively, nah, I don't think so... That faction would be filled by Ns and Rs that even an untrained and unskilled USS/HMS/KMS/IJN Ns and Rs can sink them easily even with +100 level difference(with the former being the +100 level more than the latter)

[eternal veldt]

What, Indonesia?

[tribal mortar]

yeah

[eternal veldt]

just a hunch, because Irian and that

[tribal mortar]

tbh, Indonesia don't deserve the spot

[tribal mortar]

Irian be SSR only because of the AL Shipping rules gimmick

but even so

[eternal veldt]

It technically is still the "Dutch East Indies" then

Batavia is still a valid place too.

But then again, An Shan and co exists...

[tribal mortar]

your untrained, ungeared, unenhanced USS/KMS/IJN/HMS Ns and Rs can sink "Irian" easily even Irian has level 125, 10/10/10 skill, all gears +13

[tribal mortar]

yeah....

[eternal veldt]

Now that's a bit much, Irian is still a Sverdlov

and later a torture prison with funni stuff, but we ignore that for now

[tribal mortar]

And Irian, becoming T2 of Slaimuda herself is being "generous"

if she can get in to the AL

[tribal mortar]

Yeah...

[eternal veldt]

We already have a torture prison in game already, technically

[tribal mortar]

I mean even with post war event, Indonesia will only have 1 SSR, 1 SR, and a bunch of Ns and Rs

it is "at the best assumption"

different with Aussie and Dutch with their vast options of SSRs, and SRs, along side with some UR candidate

[tribal mortar]

yeah

[eternal veldt]

Honestly, if we go into minor nations

The South Americas are also good choices

also reduces the EU fletcher spam since many were sold there

[desert agate]

suith aofrika

[tribal mortar]

South Africa as AL Faction? Hmmm? or South America(Brazil? Venezuela? Argentina?) as AL Faction

[eternal veldt]

Chile

[tribal mortar]

Whoa... Chile...

[eternal veldt]

or Peru, which would annoy our Dutch resident

[tribal mortar]

whoa... Chile and Peru...

[tribal mortar]

uh oh

[desert agate]

argies and brazil

[tribal mortar]

I mean tbh, I would say that...

AL Indonesian Players when suggesting Indonesian ships, are in their high amounts of copium

[eternal veldt]

It's not too surprising

[spiral cedar]

If France can get 2 factions then so can Japan

[eternal veldt]

Most people would want to get representation in game

and then to lewd them, most probably

[tribal mortar]

Because, there is Aussie, Dutch, Peru, Chile, etc etc etc waiting for the line.... before Indonesia

[spiral cedar]

Thailand

[eternal veldt]

no

leave Dhonburi out of this

[desert agate]

where the king

[tribal mortar]

and... even if they got the line, they would be one of the weakest nation in game that even if "a certain artist" didn't get a slot, the ships would be generally hated or ignored by the fandom

[desert agate]

oh fuck the japanese are demanding to see him

[eternal veldt]

Noob, I don't think historical power matters much

[spiral cedar]

Norway technically

[tribal mortar]

Hmmm... Imperial Japanese Navy as in their own defensive navy?

[eternal veldt]

With AL and "magic cubes", any ship, even if it is an abject failure, can be a broken, OP ship

[spiral cedar]

IJA

[tribal mortar]

is there even a ship for the army?

that makes IJA deserve a faction tho?

[desert agate]

the IJA had its own carriers

[eternal veldt]

Akitsu Maru

[spiral cedar]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Akitsu_Maru

[eternal veldt]

When you spite the navy enough you make your own one

[tribal mortar]

hmmmmm.... then.... Irian UR? Heck, even the worst UR would be thousand miles better than Irian

but ok

[eternal veldt]

Truly a Japan moment

[spiral cedar]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Escort_carriers_of_the_Imperial_Japanese_Army

[tribal mortar]

hmmm... whoa...

[eternal veldt]

Not if you gimp Irian with the right skills

Heals, barrages, that sort of stuff irrelevant to history

[tribal mortar]

holy fu

[spiral cedar]

Then again, if ships of sail aren't off the table, CSS ships are technically possible

[eternal veldt]

Masaachusetts was pretty successful, and arguably achieved the longest BB hit

Manjuu: let's give her a shit skill

So yea, irrelevant

[eternal veldt]

Royal Fortune pretty much broke every barrier

[spiral cedar]

Give us more repair and ammunition ships instead of wooden ships

Then again it does mean we could get this Yamato instead

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_corvette_Yamato

[eternal veldt]

Even Samuel B. Roberts is on the table now thanks to Hammann II

So yea, expect the Johnston/SBR UR crowd to get louder and more annoying

[alpine onyx]

Louder than they already are?

[eternal veldt]

And if that's the case, I also demand Espero to be UR

[spiral cedar]

UR Espero when

[subtle prawn]

But DEs have been in the game from day one with Eldridge

[spiral cedar]

Eyyyy

[eternal veldt]

Hahaha

[valid trout]

Espero?

[eternal veldt]

For wasting RN cruiser ammo

[spiral cedar]

The Mediterranean Fleet was at sea, escorting three convoys returning to Alexandria from Malta and Greece, and a squadron of five light cruisers was detached to intercept the Italians. The catch was made at 1830 west of Cape Matapan, with the destroyers silhouetted against the westering sun. The lead destroyer, Espero, developed a machinery defect that limited her to a maximum of 25kt; the Italian commander, Captain Enrico Baroni, ordered the two other destroyers to make good their escape while he made smoke and returned fire. The result was predictable but nonetheless instructive. Espero proved hard to hit, chasing shell splashes, dodging in and out of an effective smoke screen to fire off an occasional 120mm round at her pursuers. The British cruisers, at this stage of the war not yet fitted with fire control radar, displayed far more enthusiasm than skill in gunnery. It took the British cruisers almost an hour and a half to sink Espero, by which time the other two destroyers had disappeared in the deepening gloom. The five cruisers had fired off nearly five thousand 6in rounds, approximately 85 per cent of their stock of that calibre munition in the theatre, requiring the temporary postponement of two Malta convoys.

[kindred reef]

we need uss decatur

[alpine onyx]

Guess why I asked for Zenta, did the same with a few French BBs

[kindred reef]

and uss goff

[eternal veldt]

Hatsuzuki also deserves UR if that is the case

For emptying a few Cleveland's ammo

[alpine onyx]

Shitty protected cruiser against three or four battleships

[eternal veldt]

It was a one off and relatively ignored until now

[spiral cedar]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/515583624083406848/779852235994824705/image0.png

[eternal veldt]

Might as well open the River class frigate flood

[spiral cedar]

USS Edsall when

[eternal veldt]

Implement HMAS Diamantina

And watch hit instantly take a plane to Brisb'ne and waifu her

Oh, right, Brisbane is a possible PR6 girl too, if Manjuu leans that way

Faek Meme-o-taur

[spiral cedar]

Ottoman Minelayer Nusret as a Siren-aligned boss ship

Doesn't show up to battle so your ships just have to dodge sea mines for 5 minutes

[valid trout]

uhhh which one

[eternal veldt]

The fake one

[frigid karma]

Tbf

[eternal veldt]

Watch them also include the N5 mount

[frigid karma]

Yorktown ii is UR for mostly lore reasons

[valid trout]

ahh ok

[eternal veldt]

And horse instantly cooms

[frigid karma]

Not because of her tech or service

[eternal veldt]

Two for one hit

[frigid karma]

Because we need enty to feel better

I’m 99% sure that’s why

[eternal veldt]

But hey, if sailing frigate UR is a thing

I want Endymion

[frigid karma]

It’s not

[eternal veldt]

Le Terrible of her time

No, fuck you, Royal Fortune is a thing now, either go balls out or don't

[frigid karma]

I feel like y’all are malding a little too hard

Reminds me of week 1 Al lore

But hey, get it out your system

I’m waiting for February Chinese Ur

Fucking Liaoning or something

[eternal veldt]

Inhaling that Yat sen copium, are you

[frigid karma]

Plucked safely out the harbor

With hollow bamboo

[valid trout]

yes we need a good chinese ship apart from the ddgs

[frigid karma]

Yes, someone gets it

For legal reasons I am not allowed to continue this shitpost

[valid trout]

what legal reasons? im not good with laws

[eternal veldt]

RoC ships, I'm guessing

[frigid karma]

Mods will bonk me for social credit memes

[eternal veldt]

Or the circus that is the Beiyang fleet

First rate Ironclads sabotaged by lack of training, incompetence, and corruption

[valid trout]

speaking of UR, Texas

[frigid karma]

to be fair, one of my relatives had this to say about it

"the summer palace is still here a hundred years later, but if we had spent the money on warships instead the japanese still would've curbstomped us"

[eternal veldt]

Just warships?

The Hundred Days Reform is a thing, my guy

Until Cixi just said no

[frigid karma]

well, yea

hundred days reform in general is pepega

[eternal veldt]

It wasnt complete enough, yes

And the Chinese are still stuck in their mandate of heaven mindset

[frigid karma]

hundred __ stuff in general in china is pepega

remember hundred flowers campaign

[eternal veldt]

May 4th Movement

Pepega

[frigid karma]

was reading devotion the other day, the one being turned into a movie

[eternal veldt]

Literally led to the Chinese representative to say "Fuck you all" to the European Representatives at Versailles and refuse to sign the thing

[frigid karma]

they talk a lot about migs there

and mention the me262

but not the british jet engines

overhyping germany as usual kek

[kindred reef]

yeah me-262 often got shot down by the mustang

[eternal veldt]

The real joke about them is their 24 hour lifespan

And lack of parts

Beat the shit out your fellow engineer/run a fight club so you can fix the plane and get it up in the air

[kindred reef]

and lack of jet fuel and good pilots

[frigid karma]

Just like how Cleveland says at least it’s not Detroit

[eternal veldt]

Then watch it burst in flames later anyway

🧠

[frigid karma]

Me262 says at least it’s not me163

melts pilot face off

[kindred reef]

me-163 probably just vaporized the pilot

[eternal veldt]

Dont worry, just sell it to the Japanese

[frigid karma]

Wait WHAT

[eternal veldt]

It'll buff out

[frigid karma]

THEY SOLD KOMETS?

[kindred reef]

yeah didnt they also sell a 262?

[manic latch]

They sold me 163

[frigid karma]

Jesus h Christ

[manic latch]

Hell there was army and naval variant names

[eternal veldt]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_J8M

[manic latch]

J8M navy, Ki-200 Army

[eternal veldt]

J9Y and Ki-201 were based on the 262

[desert agate]

What the fuck is this

[eternal veldt]

What if the Britbongs sold you a Minotaur alongside Melbourne, clearly

[desert agate]

Literal fantasy I see

[eternal veldt]

Well, Brisbane was "free" as a name until 1966.

so...clearly an opportunity.

[desert agate]

Ah yes no ships using the name means anything can go there

So HMAS Darwin as a Gerald R Ford CVN then?

[zealous vine]

Understandable. Thanks

[manic latch]

Finally, someone compared the Ulyanovsk and Fujian

She is indeed her long distant cousin

[desert agate]

Bro what

[spring briar]

[kindred reef]

the Bt-7 was better than the 109

but like seriously how did russia do this

[eternal veldt]

Have we reached the point that obviously doctored photoshops are credible

[delicate beacon]

Most of the time it's Light Cruiser

[tribal mortar]

Nobody asked but

Bismarck was probably one of the worst designed of all the treaty-era battleships. Though, at 42,000 tons standard displacement, she was closer in weight to an Iowa(45,000 ton) class than she was to any 36,000 ton pre-wwii design, Bismarck was more or less comparable (or in most cases, LESS capable) than her smaller Allied contemporaries: That is: the US North Carolina’s and South Dakota’s, the British King George Vs, and the French Richielieus. For instance: Bismarck, on 42,000 tons, had 8x15 inch guns, 12.7 inches of vertical belt armor and 30 kts of speed. The US North Carolina’s and South Dakota’s, on 36,000 tons, gave you 9x16 inch guns, 12.1 inches of inclined armor plus and inch of STS backing, and 27.5 knots of speed. The American ships essentially had MORE guns, BIGGER guns, and MORE armor than Bismarck at the cost of slightly less speed: all while being 6000 tons lighter than Bismarck. The British KGVs achieved something similar: with 10x14 inch guns, 14.7 inches of armor and 28 kts of speed, the KGVs had more guns, though of a smaller caliber, less speed and significantly more armor than Bismarck—again all while being 6000 tons smaller. The Richielieus: with their 32 kt speed, 8 15 inch guns and 13.7 inches of armor, were more heavily armored, had better speed and maintained the same number of guns and caliber as Bismarck—-all while being 6000 tons less. Basically, in order to build Bismarck, the Germans violated treaty tonnage limits and STILL ended up with a battleship with similar (or in most cases, LESS) capability than Allied ships that were restricted in displacement. Glorious German engineering I guess.

Tldr: Bismarck fucking sucks, she’s less capable than her contemporaries like North Carolina, Richelieu, and King George V

[manic latch]

While you mention her belt armor

Hey not her turtleback?

Likely the reason she had less than expected belt armor was the turtleback

Like

It's a 110mm turtleback after all

[delicate beacon]

Whilst I dont disagree with the sentiment. The comparisons are not elaborate enough for my taste.

[manic latch]

I feel sad for Bismarck

She either gets overhyped or gets trashed

There no between now

[delicate beacon]

I'll trash her whenever in casual conversation but in a serious analysis she's not that bad

[kindred reef]

yeah yeah bismarck was fine until you look at the aa, which could not kill a paper and wood torpedo bomber

[eternal veldt]

🤦

Bismarck was rushed to sea, with an older set of directors, and were even in heavy seas

The very next time the Swordfishes tried again in 1942 during the Channel Dash, all six were shot down with no damage dealt

https://youtu.be/PTO3JagV8gE

Nor was Germany a signatory of the WNT or the LNT, so the 35k ton limit, while a standard, doesn't exactly apply to them

I forgot what's Bismarck's cruising range, maybe Sirene can help on this one. Was likely one reason why she needed so much tonnage as well.

It also should be kept in mind that while Bismarck was not tonnage efficient, she still posed a threat to the older QE and Revenge class battleships of the Royal Navy, which the RN themselves argued that they should not face against Tirpitz after analysing Bismarck's damage control book - and I believe jaba's calculations using the 15"/42 against Bismarck's armour scheme is not favourable at all.

[spiral cedar]

Bismarck’s main belt was 12.6” (320 mm), not 12.7”.
North Carolina’s main belt was 12”, not 12.1”, @ 15 deg with 0.75”, not 1”, STS backing.
South Dakota’s main belt was 12.2”, not 12.1”, @ 19 deg with 0.875”, not 1”, STS backing.
King George V’s main belt was only 14.7” over the magazines and part of the machinery. Most of the machinery had a 13.7” main belt over it.
Richelieu’s main belt was 12.87” at 15.4 deg, not 13.7”.

Also, any analysis of Bismarck that ignores her deck armor (both the positive and negative aspects) is inherently too shallow to be worthy of consideration.

2/10 try harder next time

[manic latch]

As Silver said

There is a reason Gneis dealt swordfish better

[spiral cedar]

Some past writeups on Bismarck’s armor protection. You can trust these because I wrote them

#history message

#history message

[eternal veldt]

nice argument jaba, unfortunately, where's the source? checkmate. /s

[spiral cedar]

My source is I typed it the fuck up

Anyway

https://www.proprofs.com/quiz-school/ugc/story.php?title=which-treaty-battleship-are-you

Been a while since I made and sent this

See what you get

[maiden citrus]

http://puu.sh/JvZl2.png

[spiral cedar]

I got KGV

[eternal veldt]

KGV here

boring people

[spiral cedar]

Indeed

[alpine onyx]

I see it's "Bisko bad"-bingo time

[spiral cedar]

Hm, looking back, I got South Dakota last time I did it. Did I really change that much?

[alpine onyx]

KGV too

boooring

[alpine onyx]

Three months of supplies, fuck ton of workshops, and somewhere around 12,500nm at 12kn

also general point that the Germans spent tonnage on things that wikipedia spreadsheets won't tell you about

but can't write about those in shitposts

[eternal veldt]

How much beer?

We know according to the prints, beer is armour

[alpine onyx]

No exact figure

But a lot

Four separate rooms above the turtleback

Each like ten meters long

[valid trout]

frick got KGV

we really are boring people

[manic latch]

Nice

[zealous vine]

I wanted to see out how the last streak of meme options would turn out

Hot dayum

"Treaty" Battleship

Mmm

[eternal veldt]

What treaty?

There never was a treaty

[desert agate]

Bruh

Even though I'd kill macarthur

[delicate beacon]

North Cal
Also I may or may not have shot Mac Arthur with the main battery of a Battleship.

[chilly osprey]

It's fine

Leave nothing behind from which the organism might regrow

[shut wren]

at this point its too different bruh

[manic latch]

Almost 30 year of design difference should at least cause some changes hmm?

[shut wren]

to be fair for most of that 30 years it was the same

[chilly osprey]

https://twitter.com/WW2Airfields/status/1611458289937649664

WW2 Airfields Archive (@WW2Airfields)

We've all had those "oh sh*t" moments...

But perhaps not quite the same as the person who took this filming gig, then realised they were in the direct path of a bouncing bomb test.

💩💩💩

© IWM MTE 3136

Likes

2001

Retweets

320

▶ Play video

Twitter · Jan 6, 2023, 8:22 PM

[tribal mortar]

@delicate beaconokay, what kind of abilities that you would expect from AL De Ruijter

would you expect a cross fleet barrage from her?

[delicate beacon]

Not too sure about all the ingame stuff as I don't delve too deep into the meta 🙃
She should give some evasion bonusses against air attacks. Maybe starshells for bonus accuracy for teammembers.

[thorn trail]

Also what's with the questions in this quiz lmao

[brisk bay]

If there was an answer that said "stare at the ceiling for 10 minutes straight" after waking up, I woulda choose that

[thorn trail]

I have a question regarding nuclear ballistic submarines. What's with the Russian and Chinese subs having very noticeable humpbacks compared to the other nations

[frigid karma]

I got KGV

huh

You’re a stickler for the rules, even if they don’t make sense. It’s important that people do as they’re told.

what does this have to do with a kgv

[frigid karma]

stare at the ceiling to watch for potential japanese aviation

duh

[thorn trail]

probably with how they really wanted the KGV to stick as close to the original WNT as possible

[alpine onyx]

I guess KGV as built breached the terms the least

Or, depending on how much copium you sniff, she was the only treaty compliant 35,000 ton BB

[manic latch]

Americans also had some

It's just lower compared to Russian/Chinese ones

[thorn trail]

yeah but the Russian subs have such big bumps

I'm wondering why they're bigger than the bumps of the other nations

[manic latch]

I will try to search exact reason. But I will assume

1. Either so save weight by making sub small but those parts bigger

2. Give submarine ability to carry larger missiles in future as futureproof

[thorn trail]

I tried searching it before but all I keep finding are piss poor Quora answers with no explanation

[manic latch]

Yup I failed

Need to find a hardcore submarine simp

[delicate beacon]

RN and MN were the only ones to stick close to the WNT I guess

[manic latch]

Isn't that because of escalator Clause

Similar to how NC suddenly changed from 356 to 406mm while KGV couldn't because of timing?

Maybe she added some small stuff she wouldn't have

[shut wren]

carries more stuff

chinese and russian submarine missiles are larger

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1611694259274399745

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

Proceedings Photo of the Week: An F/A-18E Super Hornet from the "Kestrels" of Strike Fighter Squadron (VFA) 137 prepares to launch from the flight deck of the aircraft carrier USS Nimitz (CVN-68). U.S. Navy (Justin McTaggart)

Likes

106

Twitter · Jan 7, 2023, 12:00 PM

[fleet summit]

We're learning about monarchs in class

Absolute monarchs
King Louis of france

And constitutional monarch

Absolute meaning they have alot of power

And constitutional means they got limited power

Like queen Elizabeth

I am not so smart with history tbh but I think it's cool how we evolved from cavemen to having cities and other structures built

My favorite thing to learn about was Mongolia and rome

They were very skilled and smart like making sure a spear trown would bend so it's not reusable

I forgot the name of the spear but I think it's cool

And I know they had a strong navy

[fleet summit]

Ooo what's this

[delicate beacon]

Pillum

[fleet summit]

Ye that's what it was

Alot of my friends were disappointed though they weren't how modern society portrayed the Roman soldiers

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1611860286830411787

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1991, the McDonnell Douglas A-12 Avenger II program was canceled. The carrier-based stealth bomber nicknamed "The Flying Dorito" was intended to replace the A-6 Intruder, but production delays and cost overruns doomed the program.

Twitter · Jan 7, 2023, 11:00 PM

[spiral cedar]

https://www.proprofs.com/quiz-school/ugc/story.php?title=which-treaty-battleship-are-you

[eternal veldt]

The “Black Dragon” USS New Jersey BB-62 cruises off of Saipan & Tinian - Mid 1944

Note she is wearing the Camouflage Measure 21 Scheme, Dark Navy Blue 5-N on vertical surfaces and Deck Blue 20-B on horizontal surfaces.

Original Color Picture

LIFE Magazine Archives - J R Eyerman Photographer

[manic latch]

[unborn canopy]

[manic latch]

Ok buddy. Do you know Mustard does things according to their blueprints

[unborn canopy]

nah, didnt know that

but i wouldnt be surprised

since he does pretty good research and the infos declassified

[manic latch]

Like let me show you the evolution of the design here

[unborn canopy]

would have loved to have seen some of the larger models

[manic latch]

Sadly chief designer died

[unborn canopy]

isnt that meant to be an sub hunter?

[manic latch]

While he was testing small scale models

[manic latch]

Sub hunter is likely 4

Much smaller

[fleet summit]

Yaaay

[unborn canopy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD7xiWWs-bs&t=72s the one mustard covers resembles 5 but idk

[manic latch]

Tho I'm sure it's smaller

[shut wren]

this looks like some shit from avatar

[unborn canopy]

also those dont resemble ekronoplans the way most people think but i suppose the concept is the same

[manic latch]

Sadly one of only prototype is rotting away

[unborn canopy]

when i think of them i imagine the caspian sea monster

[unborn canopy]

budget constraints and whatnot killed it, like many other soviet wonders

[manic latch]

Always the budget

[unborn canopy]

[shut wren]

no monies

[manic latch]

But this one was more of

Bartini's death

[unborn canopy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVdH_dYlVB8 <ekronoplans

shame his ideas died with him

[manic latch]

There is a new one

[unborn canopy]

[manic latch]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Pelican

[unborn canopy]

idk what role it would fill though

[manic latch]

Ultra Large transport

[unborn canopy]

the graphic looks amazing, 10/10

[shrewd pecan]

I mean that's because it was practical for non rough seas only

[manic latch]

So make it bigger

Thus higher

[unborn canopy]

larger ground effect = higher

[shrewd pecan]

massive target for NATO aircraft

[manic latch]

Meanwhile Nato:

[unborn canopy]

aircraft carriers

and thats if you can actually catch up to its

[shrewd pecan]

?????

a hornet or a tomcat is gonna outspeed that thing

[unborn canopy]

ground effect needs speed

[manic latch]

Planes are faster lad

[unborn canopy]

true but if they carried fighters or at least whatever they wanted to do with it

[shrewd pecan]

how are you

going to launch and recover aircraft off of that thing

[unborn canopy]

lol

[shut wren]

You’re not supposedly to

[shrewd pecan]

🤨 its entire mission set could of been done better by either submarines or by Tu-22M3s

[unborn canopy]

us 747 carriers

[shut wren]

People think of weird way to do shit all the time

[shrewd pecan]

all it is is a massive target that can't handle rough seas and its gonna be picked apart by NATO aircraft

[unborn canopy]

also flying fast and deploying aircraft

[shrewd pecan]

notice how they never built the 747 carrier

and how it was only a concept

[unborn canopy]

they wanted to

[shrewd pecan]

they say that about a lot of concepts

that doesn't mean they were either gonna be doable

or practical

[manic latch]

Parasite fighters are tested for decades

Ain't working

[shrewd pecan]

yeah

[fleet summit]

[shrewd pecan]

closest your getting are the pallet launched cruise missiles the airforce are working around with

but those are going on a one way trip

[manic latch]

You know that Japanese rocket kamikaze as parasite?

That does work

[shut wren]

They launched a small pod with a rocket booster from a g4m

[shrewd pecan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-22M
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-142
🤨 crazy how both of the Soviet stupid projects had their missions done better and cheaper by much more practical aircraft

[manic latch]

Tu-22M: Cutie

Tu-22:

[shrewd pecan]

👁️ the backfire scared the USN into making aegis and pursuing widescale procurement of the F-14

[manic latch]

Well they are going for carriers

[shrewd pecan]

but hey

we need our ground effect carrier killer that can't even operate on rough seas for some reason

[unborn canopy]

lol

[manic latch]

waves

[unborn canopy]

anything to scare the west

[shrewd pecan]

ah yes

the country that wasted all of its money on defense spending until oblivion needs more wonderwaffle projects

[manic latch]

Lad Soviets were mostly defensive

Tu 22 was for American carriers

Who was getting bigger and bigger

[unborn canopy]

ahem mig 25

[manic latch]

Interceptor yes

[shrewd pecan]

MIG-25 was made for a actual needed requirement

[manic latch]

INTERCEPTOR

[shrewd pecan]

and actual valid concerns regarding the US bomber fleet

[unborn canopy]

that never happened

[manic latch]

Valkyrie

[unborn canopy]

it was built to intercept the xb-70

[shrewd pecan]

B-52

B-1 Lancer

B-58

[manic latch]

Ok you don't need Mig 25 for this

[shrewd pecan]

to cover the length of the Soviet union

yes you do

[manic latch]

I guess

[unborn canopy]

idk

[shrewd pecan]

especially when they start flinging AGM-86s in the 70s

[unborn canopy]

lol

[manic latch]

Hell what was the most aggressive vehicle of Soviets?

[shrewd pecan]

look at their surface fleet

[unborn canopy]

icbms?

most of the soviet stuff was defensive

[manic latch]

Mostly focus of defending Submarines

[shut wren]

Thinking the TU-160

[shrewd pecan]

with armament on every square inch of the ship

or your aircraft carrying cruisers

[manic latch]

Hey that's called Yamato doctrine. If you can't outbuild enemy then you load your ships up

[unborn canopy]

lol

[shrewd pecan]

there's also their scud and cruise missile fleets

[manic latch]

Ability to pass Turkey

[shrewd pecan]

and their IRBMs

no ability to pass turkey is only a apart of it

[unborn canopy]

gotta love the tug boat

[shrewd pecan]

other thing is their intended purpose to defend the Soviet SSBN fleets

they're meant to operate as cruisers

[manic latch]

Kiev class didn't needed "tugboats"

Gives you example of Soviets budget

Kuznetsov is very very unlucky with her timing of construction