history

[strong plank]

Friend

[spring briar]

...

french

[spring briar]

it's in the same museum as this

[manic latch]

[strong plank]

So like

I remember in wot the turret doesn’t have full traverse

is that accurate to the irl prototype

[frigid karma]

A total of 4 turrets were developed for the AMX ELC. A distinctive feature of these turrets was the so-called casemate design. On the move the turret's rotation was limited to about 36°, because with more turret rotation the driver (located on the floor of the vehicle) was unable to access the tank's controls, and he might be injured by the breech of the gun.

[spring briar]

it's ok krem, that is a compliment

[frigid karma]

the 75mm variant in wot has full traverse, probably because the gun is much smaller and thus allows full rotation

[kindred reef]

pretty sure they came from the factory like that tbh

[spring briar]

i can flyyyyy

[strong plank]

The elc is cute

[spring briar]

indeed

very cute

[kindred reef]

surely a tank didnt do that, right?

[spring briar]

hahahahahahahaha

hahahahahaa

[frigid karma]

looks like a scrap job

[spring briar]

that's

a flat chassis

with an engine in the front

and a gun slapped on it

[strong plank]

Assuming it was captured?

Given the iron cross and Cyrillic writing

[spring briar]

[spring briar]

yee

[manic latch]

Say

Wasn't Lee Confederacy

[strong plank]

Yea

[manic latch]

Why that name choice

[spring briar]

guys I might have found the worst

[strong plank]

ugly?

[manic latch]

Hmm

[manic latch]

I guess

[spring briar]

[strong plank]

What would you do if I pulled up in this

[manic latch]

I realized lot of late war Shermans have those tracks on front of hull

Armor or spare?

[strong plank]

Probably both

[kindred reef]

Sd.Kfz. 205

[spring briar]

kremlin

[strong plank]

If you have to carry spares

Might as well put them between you and the enemy

[spring briar]

KREM

[manic latch]

Makes sense ye

[strong plank]

Plus also like

[manic latch]

Fucking nice

[kindred reef]

that is genius

[strong plank]

If you have the space to store more of them connected up

probably makes it easier if you need to use them

[manic latch]

French tank M4A3 (75) W "Sherman", destroyed near the city of Phalsbourg

[kindred reef]

bm-13 was pretty cool

[strong plank]

what the fuck

[spring briar]

found T-14 plans

sekrit

[strong plank]

“What you want fam”
“I want a tank that reminds me of being on a ship”

[kindred reef]

the germans tried to make a wood powered tiger tank because no fuel

[spring briar]

Ayo object 120

@manic latch

[strong plank]

No really what is this for

[manic latch]

This think fucked Maus so hard

In WT

I think she began the death of Heavy tanks

[kindred reef]

freedom

[spring briar]

[strong plank]

Apparently it’s a

Beach Armored Recovery Vehicle

[manic latch]

German soldiers inspect heavy tank Char 2C No. 99 on a railway platform

[strong plank]

guys I found it

the

The OSHA certified Sherman

[spring briar]

well this is just sad

[kindred reef]

F

[manic latch]

I prefer Concrete Sherman

Track Sherman

[spring briar]

I posted this 5 minutes ago

[strong plank]

The shermussy

[tough quail]

Stop

[frigid karma]

jerma

[spring briar]

Mogador after getting hit by a 15" shell in her aft which set off her depth charges

[tough quail]

it'll buff out

[spring briar]

HMS Kingston

French twin 240mm coastal battery

[subtle prawn]

https://news.usni.org/2022/12/21/secnav-del-toro-names-future-survey-ship-after-titanic-discoverer-robert-ballard

[frigid karma]

why does the c93 look like a mutant

[spring briar]

Ayy thats uncles lou and joe

From Al’s diner

[kindred reef]

skink is best sherman

[errant zealot]

but c r a b

[tough quail]

strictly speaking

there is nothing stopping you from combining them

[kindred reef]

ok but in all seriousness wast the best one the firefly?

someone told me that but idk they made too many different shermans

[cinder escarp]

What do you want the Sherman to do?

[kindred reef]

?

[cinder escarp]

What the best sherman is, depends on what your sherman is doing - what is the context

[kindred reef]

blow up adolf's housecats

[cinder escarp]

In that particular case it would be the firefly

[kindred reef]

american engineering number 1

[strong plank]

The easy8 was also pretty decent at taking out German tanks

[tough quail]

easy 8 is the best one overall because it has a lot less jank than a firefly

firefly just has the most punch

[cinder escarp]

Horse, if you leave it open-ended than the M-51 is best

[strong plank]

Yeah the issue with the firefly is its poor ergo iirc

[tough quail]

well yeah

obviously the israeli uber shermans are going to be on the top

[tough quail]

the engine is awful

[frigid karma]

muh jumbo shermans though

mm

[ivory ridge]

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar-chile-m-60-sherman-hvms/

le meme

oh right they even put it on some chaffes

[tough quail]

fuck nevermind

u rite

[ivory ridge]

cant wait for this in WT

except it will be garbage because a 60mm post pen it's the same as a 25mm in WT

but still

le fake freccia

[shrewd pecan]

I mean if you hate your crew sure

[shrewd pecan]

76 MM post pen is already horrible enough using APFSDS

I don't want to imagine 60 MM

[spring briar]

[spring briar]

https://twitter.com/tass_agency/status/1605852254388584448

ТАСС (@tass_agency)

Пожар произошел на крейсере "Адмирал Кузнецов", стоящем на ремонтном заводе "Звездочка" в Мурманске, сообщили экстренные службы:
https://t.co/XLhR7UzwES

Twitter · Dec 22, 2022, 9:06 AM

Kuz on fire

[thorn trail]

Days since Kuznetsov disaster: 0

[manic latch]

She will get Forrestal's nicknames at this rate

[desert agate]

Lol again

Imagine taking an L that hard

[manic latch]

Worry not seems fire was stopped. It's not a BHR situation

[desert agate]

Yes I'm sure Kutz fire crews are well trained at this point

[manic latch]

[desert agate]

May high explosives be donated to her liberally

[manic latch]

I will protect her from your hatred Spoon

I know you two weren't good friends back then

[spring briar]

[desert agate]

No hatred here

[manic latch]

Dunno it feels personal

[desert agate]

Why would it be

I have done nothing

[manic latch]

You wish death upon her for being old and undermaintained

[desert agate]

Just get a new one then lol

[manic latch]

China can do that

[desert agate]

Just don't be broke lmao

Buy more money

[manic latch]

Submarines eat them

[desert agate]

Subs that barely work

Kursk oop

[manic latch]

Well we will see how you guys will handle your nuclear subs with no nuclear experience

[desert agate]

She'll be right mate

We don't need our own experience

We have allies

[manic latch]

Oh you will use different crew?

[desert agate]

Who happily give us access to their most top secret stuff

We'll probably train the first 3 sub crews in US/UK before properly developing our own training

Not that we don't have sub experience

So it's more a case of training up the areas relevant to nuclear power

Rather than entire crews who can be trained here

[manic latch]

[desert agate]

Not like we haven't operated subs for decades

The nuke part is the difficult transition

[spring briar]

[desert agate]

But there's stuff in the works

[desert agate]

Cope

[spring briar]

no, you cope

[desert agate]

Not sure how much I can talk about

Not sober

[desert agate]

[spring briar]

[desert agate]

Navy won't release public information until they've properly determined what subs they're getting

Since I trust media reporting on the topic as far as I can throw Rupert Murdoch

And my insider knowledge is still not definitive

Prolly gonna be US power plants British hulls assembled in aus tho

That's speculation but given American and British dockyard backlogs

Not gonna happen elsewhere

I can see an argument for just building US or UK boats in Henderson

But again navy and gvmt haven't made definitive decisions yet

Subs suck build DDGs

And CVs

And

Uh

More DDGs

PLAN peer surface and air threat far more vital to Australian interests

Mmm South Pacific thrust

[manic latch]

So when did you and China become unfriendly

[thorn trail]

What ship design is this

[stiff mauve]

Alsace?

[manic latch]

Question

Why everyone knows Montana

But not Alsace?

[stiff mauve]

Because French aren’t exactly known for ships outside of Dunkek and Richie?

[manic latch]

[stiff mauve]

Meanwhile USN toots their horn over everything?

[manic latch]

....true

[spiral cedar]

Algerie?

I feel like she gets brought up in most treaty era cruiser convos

[alpine onyx]

While New Orleans gets ignored

[stiff mauve]

But when you think French ships Algerie isn’t exactly the first ship that comes to mind

[stiff mauve]

Wasn’t big enough to toot about for USN /s

[thorn trail]

Well this ship has quad turrets so I got confused as fuck what ship design it was. I guessed it had to be French or smth because of the quad turrets

[stiff mauve]

I mean there are quad turreted USN BB designs

[thorn trail]

Oh there are? Huh didn't know that

[spiral cedar]

Yes

[stiff mauve]

That exist as blueprints

[spiral cedar]

North Carolina prelims especially

[stiff mauve]

The one doing the works at the moment is WOWS’ Illinois which is a mashup of several of those designs

[spiral cedar]

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:North_Carolina_class_scheme_F.jpg#mw-jump-to-license

"Scheme F, the hybrid battleship-carrier with three large catapults forward, 1935. Reportedly, it was favored by President Roosevelt." Friedman, Norman (1985). U.S. Battleships: An Illustrated Design History.

Quad 14", all-reverse, non-superfiring, battleship-carrier

[manic latch]

Back when US was loyal to treaty. She was planning NC to use quad 356mms like KGVs

[thorn trail]

Oh interesting

[manic latch]

This gun is in gear lab too

[spiral cedar]

The final NC design with the 16" is treaty compliant too—just with the escalator clause since Japan left

[thorn trail]

I always associate US with triple gun turrets

[manic latch]

Yeah the clause stuff smh

Poor British

[thorn trail]

this one?

[manic latch]

Yes

[silver crest]

bro

i just realized that the sieg heil is the roman salute

i was wondering why they were doing that when they hailed caesar

[desert agate]

When they started sanctioning our goods over nothing

Also great power competition conflict is inevitable

[manic latch]

[spring briar]

no?

[spiral cedar]

There is, technically speaking, a difference between a triple and a 3-gun turret, and a quad and a 4-gun turret. You can generally tell if the guns can elevate independently of one another. The NC prelims and KGVs were 4-gun turrets, whereas the Dunkerque and Richelieu turrets were actually paired twins (one twin in each half-turret), which is why they usually used a half-salvo firing doctrine. I believe Nevada used both twins and 3-gun turrets ( @maiden citrus can correct me if needed). The older US CAs used triple turrets but Wichita and later classes used 3-gun

[thorn trail]

I know the difference between a triple and 3-gun. I just found it easier to type to describe the turret. But also I didn't know that the Quads of the french BBs are paired twins

[maiden citrus]

(it's actually the other way around, two gun turrets and triple turrets, but point stands yeh)

[manic latch]

I think it was the reason that French didn't suffer from malfunctions KGV did?

[spiral cedar]

They had a 40mm bulkhead in between to reduce the chance of a pen knocking out both halves of the turret. It worked on at least one occasion, when Dunk's turret roof took a hit that knocked one of the twins out

[spring briar]

we also suffered malfunctions

but that was more hoist related

[manic latch]

For certainly on 130mm

But 380?

Oh

[spiral cedar]

There were teething issues for the hoists for sure yeah

But that's common

Even the famed 5"/38 had teething issues

The USN just had the resources and time to fix them

[maiden citrus]

new yorks are two guns too, but it wasn't until new mexico that the three guns appeared over triples

[spring briar]

the issues were eventually fixed and richie's loading cycle was right around 30s

[maiden citrus]

with that said, the triples on things like penny and nevada didn't have any accuracy issues or anything but the early 14''/50s on new mex and tens did at near max range

[thorn trail]

Wait question: Why did most guns hover at around roughly 50 calibers?

[spiral cedar]

Barrel droop

[maiden citrus]

much longer than that and supporting them becomes an issue

[manic latch]

Longer means higher velocity but much heavier and less barrel life

[thorn trail]

Okay I want to ask why does longer mean higher velocity

I've seen this in many guns but what's the science behind it

[manic latch]

Shelll spins inside barrel

Longer the barrel more spinning

Irrc it was this reason

[spring briar]

krem?

[manic latch]

Fuck

Is it wrong?

[thorn trail]

it's not related to the rifling?

[maiden citrus]

longer distance to accelerate using a stronger blast

rifle vs pistol

[thorn trail]

ah makes sense

[spiral cedar]

Early propellant had different burn characteristics so short barrels suited them better, as a too-long barrel meant they would just suffer more friction. But more advanced propellant in the early 1900s changed things—now a longer barrel meant the propellant could have more time to "push" on the shell in the barrel, increasing muzzle velocity

[spring briar]

longer barrel means you can allow the propellant gases to more completely combust which increases the efficiency of your propellant and gives the shell more space to accelerate

[manic latch]

Ooooh

I thought it was the rifling spin being longer

[spiral cedar]

The length was limited partly by metallurgy (too long and you get barrel droop), and partly by the fact that you might as well just use a bigger caliber gun past a certain point

[maiden citrus]

that can increase accuracy

[spring briar]

british cordite propellants required shorter barrels because they were too fast burning to allow the shell to accelerate in a longer barrel
this was fixed after the war and allowed them to go to 45 cal and 50 cal barrels

this one's for maka

[manic latch]

"The more you learn about RN, the worse they become"

[thorn trail]

I vaguely read that cordite was one of the main issues in the Battle of Jutland, which made the british capital ships more vulnerable?

[spring briar]

well the main issue was not using the safety interlocks

but early cordite was rather sensitive to pressure and temperature changes and because of the manufacturing process ofter contained sulfuric acid which degraded it and made it even more unstable

[spiral cedar]

tbh for me, it's less that and more that the RN has occasional very forward-thinking and advanced equipment but then screws up some other related part of the process that means they can't really take advantage

[thorn trail]

Wait speaking about naval guns, what was the longest gun (in terms of caliber)?

[spring briar]

germany had a 105mm/65

the US has an experimental 9"/98

[thorn trail]

what's the name?

[manic latch]

Stalingrad 305/62

[thorn trail]

the SK C/33?

[spring briar]

305/62

get it right

[manic latch]

I swear it's the keyboard

[thorn trail]

Wait 62 calibers?

[manic latch]

Gangut has 305mm/52

[thorn trail]

Oh Kron has 52 calibers huh

[spring briar]

10.5 cm/65 (4.1") SK C/33

[thorn trail]

Why did the soviets want long guns?

[spring briar]

the lower in caliber you go the longer the guns get usually

but I'm sticking to naval guns and not AA

[manic latch]

Italian simping, and Soviet ships were defensive so they would be focused closer to ports (easy to replace barrels)

And it gives you range advantage

Easier to support army when needed

[manic latch]

Look at this beauty

Designed to counter Iowa's supposed 482mm belt

[thorn trail]

send the link to the page

[manic latch]

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/457-мм/55_морское_орудие

[spring briar]

as far as the guns with the highest caliber length
there's the 340/224 TLP which is 150 caliber
there's the 21cm Wilhelmgeschutz which is also 150 caliber
France made a 37mm/160 caliber gun in 1918
and the german V3 is also quite long in caliber but I wouldn't call this a gun

[thorn trail]

holy shit 150 calibers

[spring briar]

ye

[thorn trail]

How many calibers was the uh Paris gun?

[spring briar]

german 21 cm wilhelmgeschutz (top)
and french 340/224 TLP (bottom)

[spring briar]

150, it's the 21cm wilhelmgeschutz

project HARP is also quite long

[thorn trail]

wait 16/100 for project HARP? (It says here it's 2 16in guns welded together)

[spring briar]

yeah might be

[thorn trail]

that's one long boi

[thorn trail]

Wait another question: Why were longer caliber guns slower than shorter caliber guns?

[spring briar]

because the barrels weigh more

[thorn trail]

isn't the schwerer gustav larger at 31in?

[manic latch]

What is easier to lift and move around? 10m wood or 15m wood?

[thorn trail]

Ah

I think I'm satisfied with the answers for now. Thank you for answering my questions and sorry if I wasted your time or smth

[spiral cedar]

Cordite was a big part, yes, but the RN continued to use Cordite through WWII, and the Japanese also used Cordite. And British ships did not suffer a Jutland every battle, so there was definitely more to the Jutland puzzle than just Cordite.

Cordite was considered an improvement over black powder (which was generally scrupulously watched out of centuries of naval tradition) in terms of safety, so it seems that many in the WWI RN came to view anti-flash measures in a more lax manner than was really justified. The issue was partly inherent Cordite properties, and partly poor manufacturing quality.

Cordite in the WWI formulation was not especially dangerous when burning unconfined, but the RN did not adequately study confined Cordite fires—as revealed when a USN test showed that a model Cordite magazine could explode violently whereas an open pile would not. The manufacturing quality was also a serious issue; the WWI era formulations degraded too quickly and dangerously and caused many random explosions of ships in port—not helped by the aforementioned lax views on powder safety that allowed old, degraded powder to end up in the same magazines as fresh batches with no way to tell them apart.

The sum of these and other Cordite characteristics meant that when a Cordite fire began in a British ship at Jutland, it often burned so fiercely that it exploded before the crew could flood the magazine—whereas on a German ship, similar fires tended to burn slowly enough to allow someone to douse the magazine, saving the ship.

As a point of comparison, the USN generally had a very good propellant safety track record during the world wars. US propellant was almost entirely nitrocellulose, which in theory was less advanced that a double or triple based propellant, but the US method had the advantages of very strict quality control and of the addition of a rosaline dye that changed color when the powder had to be replaced—making powder safety a routine part of the navy's practices. As a result US powder tended to burn rather than explode, even when hundreds or thousands of pounds of powder burned up, saving multiple ships.

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

Nah it's good. This chat dies fast

[spring briar]

and there's always this thing ofc

[thorn trail]

what the heck is this

[spring briar]

quicklaunch

a supergun to launch stuff into orbit using hydrogen

[thorn trail]

Oh what the fuck it's 1km long

wtaf

[spring briar]

ofc, this still needs an extra stage on the projectile

because the gun can't achieve the correct deltaV required

deltaV to reach space from earth is 11.2 km/s right jabb?

[spiral cedar]

The Japanese after WWI studied the Jutland Cordite issue and added the same stabilizing agent as Germany used in their powder—with the consequence of reducing in-port ship detonations and giving their magazine crews a generally good track record of being able to extinguish magazine fires

[spring briar]

[spiral cedar]

Also helps that they set up their own domestic powder manufacture, but I don't remember the exact year off the top of my head

[spring briar]

it's in that one report

form navtechjapan

or I could ask shiki

[thorn trail]

Again thank you for answering my questions. Learned a lot about naval guns

[spring briar]

but as far as guns go

37mm/160 is the longest in caliber

not a naval gun tho

there are much much longer smoothbore guns used in laboratories

but I don't count non rifled guns

[thorn trail]

Wait question: Why did the US use nitrocellulose as their propellant compared to the others using Cordite?

[spring briar]

cordite is a form of nitrocellulose

[thorn trail]

Oh wait really

Huh

[spiral cedar]

Cordite is primarily a mix of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin, but with a bunch of other stuff mixed in as well

[spring briar]

cordite contains guncotton (nitrocellulose) and nitroclycerin

mostly nitroclycerin, but about 40% nitrocellulose

[spiral cedar]

Nitroglycerin gives more punch (meaning you can use smaller charges) but causes more barrel wear and is more, well, explosive

If you've got a good formulation and quality control and handling practices, it is generally fine

[spring briar]

nitroglycerin is that stuff in bottles from cowboy movies that explodes if you only kick it

[spiral cedar]

But the USN was paranoid and refused to have any nitroglycerin propellant on their ships

Hence the 99.5% nitrocellulose propellant

And, given the track record, it's hard to say it wasn't the right choice for them

[thorn trail]

Ah

[spring briar]

poudre B (the original smokeless powder) is basically nitrocellulose with additional chemicals in trace amounts
nitrocellulose itself is pretty safe, but in order to synthesize it, you need to add H2SO4 (sulfuric acid) to cellulose in order to add the nitro groups (from HNO3)
back in the old day it was very hard to fully remove this sulfuric acid
which meant nitrocellulose (which france used and spread to the world) often contained some trace amount of sulfuric acid which degraded the nitrocellulose, making it unstable to temperature and pressure changes
causing two major accidents (Iéna and Liberté)
after adding stalilizers and using less solvent it became more and more stable

Knowledge is power: the knowledge of phenomena has no other interest than to serve to shelter oneself from the dangers to come. Security, if we get it now, will have cost us quite a lot, at the cost of Lagoubran, Jena and Liberty : it would be inexcusable not to draw from these cruel lessons all the profit they entail. We hadn't waited for the first accidents to take precautions. Nevertheless, it took those who, from 1893 to 1896, marked the old age of the first batches of B powder manufactured around 1886 or since then, to show the need for further caution. So we looked for a way to extend the life of the gunpowder. Since the residual solvent forms, as long as it remains, the guarantee of chemical stability, it was thought to use a solvent which evaporates more slowly than alcohol. The simple addition of an appropriate element: urea, aniline, diphenylamine, etc., made it possible to achieve the result: the inventor of powder B, Mr. Vieille, stuck to amyl alcohol, endowed with less stabilizing power, but which had the advantage of necessitating fewer changes in manufacturing, and of using, on the one hand, the studies already made, and on the other hand, the existing stock. Powders made from this point on are designated by the letters AM, followed by a number that indicates the percentage of amyl alcohol. This one, taken naked at the beginning in the proportion of 2 for 100, was increased to 8 for 100 in the powders AM8, of which the first are of 1903.

The documents brought to his attention by these various investigations revealed the lack of safety of powder B, contrary to official assertions. There were records of accidents attributable to spontaneous combustion: at the powder factory of Pont-de-Buis in August 1803, in Algiers in September 1894, on the battleship Amiral-Duperré in May 1896, at the powder factory of Saint-Médard in June, at that of Bouchet in July of the same year and in Tunis in August, in Saigon in 1897, at Bouchet in November 1898, in Nice and Villefranche in August and October 1899, in Angoulême in July 1900, on the Vauban in September, on the Descartes in October, in Marseilles in June 1901, at the powder factory of Ripault in September, in Versailles in June 1903 and inConstantine in August, on the Forbin in April 1904 and on the Charlemagne in December, in Orangea near Diégo-Suarez in February and November of the same year and in Antsirane also in February, in Tunis in June 1905.

[spiral cedar]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642452370462343179/989411575112806460/IMG_9443.png

[eternal veldt]

Good ol' Mikasa

Illegal drinking party in the fucking magazine

Amazing discipline

[alpine onyx]

Shouldn't that list include whatever German pre-dread got blown up at Jutland?

[spring briar]

a possible reason as to why Iéna and Liberté exploded compared to the ships and factories I mentioned before is because they still had 1886 era powders

[alpine onyx]

also I guess Seydlitz... twice

[eternal veldt]

And Glatton having newspaper between bulkheads instead of actual fireproofing material

[eternal veldt]

Pommern?

[eternal veldt]

Wasnt that a torpedo hit > magazine detonation?

[alpine onyx]

If I had a penny for every time Seydlitz had her magazines lit up but survived I'd have two pennies, which isn't a lot, but weird that it happened twice

[spring briar]

German propellants like french propellants are mostly nitrocellulose
with additional staliblizers
and therefore burn much slower than high nitroglycerin british powders
but as Seydlitz showed, and as i showed in the many cases of combustions
when french and german powders go off they burn

[alpine onyx]

yes, Pommern, ate a torp and then blew up

[spiral cedar]

In 1912, the Japanese developed and produced their first naval propellant, known as C2 for Type 2 Cordite. Officially adopted on 12 September 1917, this consisted of 65% nitrocellulose, 30% nitroglycerine, 3% mineral jelly and 2% jara jara (beta naphthol methyl ether). This propellant was also made in a tubular form (tubite) and in this form was known as T2. In 1920, centralite was introduced as a gelatinizer, a technique used by the Germans in their RP C/12. By 1924, this had become the standard naval service propellant and was known as DC (for Doku = Deutsch or German Cordite).

[spring briar]

jara jara

[eternal veldt]

The forgotten sibling of jabajaba

[spiral cedar]

Jarajarajerejere, my Japanese ordnance nemesis

[spring briar]

they believe in gypsum on the inside of shells

[thorn trail]

Wait what guns irl or rather what irl shell is this item based on

[eternal veldt]

I think Lion almost had an internal magazine explosion at Jutland

[alpine onyx]

Type 91 AP, used on most IJN ships

[spiral cedar]

The Japanese late 30s APC shell, the Type 91

[eternal veldt]

Type 91 Armour Piercing Shell

[alpine onyx]

at least those that had a use for AP

so 15.5cm up

[spring briar]

the british are just rather unfortunate that Germany introduced their propellant with stablizer in 1912 right before the war

[spiral cedar]

It was the end result of a chain of designs that began with 1920s British shells and ended with shells with an extremely long fuze delay, break-away cap for underwater stability, and questionable high-obliquity penetration requirements

[thorn trail]

All JP BBs/BCs used this?

[spring briar]

https://tenor.com/view/parliament-british-united-kingdom-explosion-guy-fawkes-gif-26370484

[spiral cedar]

Yes, by WWII

The Japanese CAs did as well

The 15.5cm guns also used it

[thorn trail]

Wait wdym by questionable high oblique penetration requirement

[sullen canyon]

Ah yes that DC Vertigo movie

[eternal veldt]

There is another, the Type 1, though I think not deployed en masse

and IIRC not too big of an improvement

[spring briar]

british shells did not penetrate when striking a plate half their caliber at 20° or higher but simply broke up or detonated

[eternal veldt]

I forgor if Shiki said anything about modified Type 1s

[spiral cedar]

The CA and 15.5cm versions did not have true AP caps, which made them rather questionable for use against the Brooklyns and later US cruisers with facehardened armor

[manic latch]

Me when British refuses to give British cemented armor for Soyuz

[spiral cedar]

Obliquity is the angle away from the normal when striking a plate. The WWI standards were generally only for 10-20 deg, resulting in poor shell performance for many nations. By WWII the international standard was 1 caliber at 30 deg, and the USN was a bit ahead with 1 caliber at 35-40 deg, but Japan retained the 1921 British spec of 0.67 cal at 20 deg to focus on improving the shell diving capabilities. This made them rather poor at remaining intact and fit to burst after penetrating inclined armor, as all US fast BBs had

[spiral cedar]

It replaced the Type 91 completely on some ships iirc but yes, only small changes. Added dye bag and slight aerodynamic improvement is all I believe

[spring briar]

and a more boring name

[spiral cedar]

Something something type 0 carrier fighter

[spring briar]

Japan does not exist

[spiral cedar]

—Admiral Halsey

[maiden citrus]

The Japan type 0

[delicate beacon]

O-fighter

Meanwhile, US naming: M1

[spiral cedar]

USS M1, M2, etc.

[eternal veldt]

Needs more M4

[spiral cedar]

Since they were pretty much identical in armor penetration characteristics they are sometimes referred to as Type 91/1

[eternal veldt]

And more M4 variants

[spiral cedar]

The slightly different drag characteristics does seem to suggest that they had some way to ensure ships didn't end up with mixed batches

But I can't recall any exact details

[spring briar]

“This shell would’ve been bigger if this shell was bigger”

[manic latch]

True

[tough quail]

true if big

[spring briar]

do rifled slugs spin in smoothbore barrels

[spring briar]

yes they do, very slowly

thanks richie

no problem

[somber knoll]

[tough quail]

real

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pyDNOxbb-Q

[junior trench]

https://youtu.be/YILR-E1Sqlk

[zealous vine]

How were Coast Guard Cutters and Destroyer Escorts different?

[kindred reef]

my uncle works at lockheed martin in Fort Worth, Texas and they aren't even telling him what happened, and i cant find anything online either

[gentle viper]

@tribal mortar

this is a graph of Operation Crossroads Able test

[tribal mortar]

huh... ok...

[gentle viper]

Baker

its not that easy to sink a ship with nukes

[gentle viper]

The only ships that got sunk in Able test were an Agano class cruiser, 2 DD's and 2 transports

[ivory ridge]

range, armament, internals

destroyer escorts are still blue navy ships

they go in the ocean

Cutters are coastal vessels

[gentle viper]

Arent the Hamiltons and the Legends ocean-going tho?

[ivory ridge]

yes but at that point destroyers escort dont exist anymore and are just englobed in the frigate classification

still used in different ways

[junior trench]

ocean goin USCG Cutters make most navies in the world jealous

which says more about how low the bar is

to be fair

[delicate beacon]

Fren

[thorn trail]

What ship is that

[delicate beacon]

Just some cutie Tjerk Hiddes spotted amongst many

[thorn trail]

Oh Richelieu?

[shrewd pecan]

https://twitter.com/SpacecoastPix/status/1606056828474757120?s=20&t=HzlZZHjvJAF1fgxTUQXoIA

D. Stamos/Helodriver (@SpacecoastPix)

As rainy season makes its appearance out west, most of the CalFire fleet is home at McClellan airfield near Sacramento. This is likely the largest fleet of flyable S-2s and OV-10s left in the world. The two recently acquired combat vet OV-10Gs are in the lineup. @Aviation_Intel

Twitter · Dec 22, 2022, 10:39 PM

https://twitter.com/SpacecoastPix/status/1606057560682831873?s=20&t=HzlZZHjvJAF1fgxTUQXoIA

D. Stamos/Helodriver (@SpacecoastPix)

a few other odd ducks on the CalFire ramp.

Twitter · Dec 22, 2022, 10:42 PM

[manic latch]

Ok

[ivory ridge]

if the stealth is not needed there is no reason not to

[shrewd pecan]

eh

AIM-9X mounts don't really screw with the RCS that muchg

[thorn trail]

Are those A's right?

[thorn trail]

what is this comment referencing? what post?

[ivory ridge]

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/zsqqda/chinese_type055_american_burke_and_russian_m/

[glass trail]

well yeah, the first reich is the roman empire, so makes sense that adolf used the same salute

[remote monolith]

no, the First Reich was the Holy Roman, the 2nd being Imperial Germany. Hitler never drew continuation from Rome even if he did expressed admiration of it

[glass trail]

i might be remembering wrong then

i knew the hre was one of them but i didn remember if it was the kaiser's empire or caesar's empire

[fierce sparrow]

https://twitter.com/ronkainen7k15/status/1605969953504788480

Ronkainen (@ronkainen7k15)

A little known fact. The Swiss Armed Forces had tested three Chrysler-built XM1 (LRIP) Abrams tanks in 1982, but they finally chose German Leopard 2 as the new generation tank.

Likes

189

Twitter · Dec 22, 2022, 4:54 PM

[remote monolith]

technically speaking Caesar doesn't have an empire tbf, cause the first emperor was his nephew Octavian

[fierce sparrow]

wait? Caesar has an empire? Who said that?

That can't be right...

[unborn wyvern]

the state birds of California ☺️

[kindred reef]

ok question

which is worse california or ohio

[tough quail]

ohio just kind of

exists

california at least has money

[kindred reef]

i was in ohio once

didnt stay long

wont be returning

[tough quail]

but ohio will return for you

[junior trench]

I have family in Ohio. And Cincinnati zoo is pretty nice. That's about all I can say in favor of Ohio.

[strong plank]

columbus is pretty good

[junior trench]

Skyline is nice

But I can get it out of state

[maiden citrus]

I have family in ohio too, though no one was born there

[strong plank]

I've gone to ohio a few times

there was a weird period where like 1/4 of the year's national tournaments were in ohio

[kindred reef]

you are trolling right??????

[junior trench]

I'm in too much pain to troll

[kindred reef]

i am praying on your downfall

[junior trench]

Cool story bro

[kindred reef]

?

[maiden citrus]

what

[fierce sparrow]

[valid trout]

huh what about ohio now???

[kindred reef]

ohio is a land full of eldritch beings

[valid trout]

uhhhhhhhh ok?

interesting conversation about Ohio in the history chat lol

[kindred reef]

indeed

[fierce sparrow]

https://twitter.com/lchemperek/status/1606197980494798849

Leszek Chemperek⌚💯 (@lchemperek)

Poznań

Twitter · Dec 23, 2022, 8:00 AM

Green is good...

[shrewd pecan]

👁️ to be fair one of the best hotel experiences I've had was in Columbus

and having a hotel room looking right over the skyline

tho that only remains one of my best hotel experiences since my main travel plans kept getting interrupted by the pandemic

[manic latch]

Allegedly a re-designed J-20 with WS-15 engine

[cinder escarp]

U slow lorf, been around for some time )))

[manic latch]

Surface combat ships launched or commissioned by the Chinese Navy in 2022.

[desert agate]

The missile knows where it is at all times

It knows this because it knows where it isnt

[manic latch]

I live in your walls

[valid trout]

What the

Kremlin are you a stalker?

[manic latch]

No its one of my homes

Does have lot of spiders sadly

[valid trout]

Ah ok

My aunts shop has a lot of ants and spiders

[spring briar]

[tiny torrent]

Don't know which Iowa she is but she's depicted here in a grayish tone, from The Fighting Lady movie

[alpine onyx]

An Iowa

[delicate beacon]

Watching the new kancolle anime and I can see they're totally biased 2 minutes in.
I mean, those 25mms didn't jam after 1 minute of fire. What the heck

[alpine onyx]

They didn't stop for reloads

smh

[fierce sparrow]

https://youtu.be/fBQ3XXpyBTw

[night heart]

hi

warhammer 40 k live action

👀

[chilly osprey]

lmao this includes ROCN ships

[manic latch]

God wish I can read Chinese

Then it's ships launched by both Chinas in 2022?

[chilly osprey]

The top one is ships launched, the bottom one is ships delivered - note the Yushan-class LPD, which was built by Taiwan

Though I don't believe Taiwan launched any major ships this year. The PLAN, on the other hand, launched their first CATOBAR carrier (Type 003), and and five Type 054A (Batch V) frigates.

It is thought they might launch the first pair of Type 052D Batch IV (alternatively, Type 052DL Batch II) before the end of the year, too.

[manic latch]

[somber knoll]

I have a hull dilemma question in my head.

when was the time that the definition of destroyer escort and frigate became so blurry that DE later just melted into the latter?

[subtle prawn]

A frigate in most other navies is what the USN would have called a “destroyer escort”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Lgc_NtwApQ

(The fact he called Shinano a “supercarrier” in the title kind of bothers me a little…)

[sullen canyon]

She was supposed to be one, but was a Yamato refitted to be a CV instead, but didn't have any of her rigging s at the time I belive

[subtle prawn]

She’s only a supercarrier in size, capability and everything else, not really

[sullen canyon]

Granted when the sub sank her they did claim she was a CV, but the IS Navy said they probably just sank some BB of sorts instead

[subtle prawn]

Her role was essentially a big Unicorn

[sullen canyon]

And then was sunk before she became one apparently

[manic latch]

Was massively stupid decision

Like why you need a support carrier of that size if you need fleet carriers in first place

Shinano could have been amazing potential if they build her as fleet carrier

It would be Japanese Midway

[shrewd pecan]

time and limited resources

combined with the fact she had to be shit out as soon as possible

[tough quail]

no the support option was much more useful

they had more fleet carriers built than they could effectively use

what they needed was to cut back aircraft and pilot attrition and that's entirely what shinano was for

[rapid junco]

https://youtube.com/watch?v=fSLL8hV-Lgo&feature=shares

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGj-TSllceU

[frigid karma]

reminder this thing exists

patton with gau-8

[unborn wyvern]

Would have been a terrible AA versus jets

But as a fire support vehicle...

[subtle prawn]

https://news.usni.org/2022/12/22/navy-issues-general-dynamics-electric-boat-5-1b-contract-mod-for-columbia-class-submarine-program

[tough quail]

Incredibly based

Also the worst thing since cancer in armored warfare

[chilly osprey]

Depends on the navy.

The RN brought back the term 'frigate' in WWII to describe ASW ships that fell between destroyers and corvettes in size. This stuck in quite a few European navies after WWII - the next largest being the Italian Marina Militare - and spread from there. This was kind of an entirely new way to use the term 'frigate', though it was not really in line with the original definition from the age of sail and early ironclad era.

On the other hand, after WWII, the USN, which had called such ships 'destroyer escorts' in WWII - kept that term. They actually did bring the term 'frigate' back in the late 1950s - but they used by its original definition, in order to describe new heavier ships that fell between destroyers and cruisers in size. These were the DLGs and DLGNs - Guided Missile Frigates - which typically were armed with one or two twin-arm launchers for the RIM-2 Terrier medium-range SAM. Contemporary destroyers tended to have only a single-arm launcher for the short-range RIM-24 Tartar, and the cruisers of the era were running around with the long-range RIM-8 Talos, or copius amounts of RIM-2 Terriers.

The French navy also began using the term 'frigate' again with the Suffren-class of the 1960s - which were largely equivalent in role if not size to the American Guided Missile Frigates, using the Masurca medium-range SAM. The French would go on to use 'frigate' to describe any fleet escort surface combatant (encompasing ships that foreign navies would call destroyers as well as cruisers), or more specifically, 'first rank frigates' - and still do to this day.

The USN, on the other hand, went through a major re-classifications of all its ship types in 1975. Almost every Guided Missile Frigate was de-designated as a Guided Missile Cruiser (which worked out well because almost all the 'real' Guided Missile Cruisers, save Long Beach, had been retired by that point). Meanwhile, ships that had previously been called 'Destroyer Escorts' or 'Ocean Escorts' - DE/DEG - became frigates, which aligned with the terminology used by most other major naval powers (other than France).

So, basically, blame the British

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPrWm6fWuaM

[tawny harness]

Does Japan still use F4 Phantom in their Air Force?

[desert agate]

retired 2 years ago

[manic latch]

Red means old

Blue active

[desert agate]

a shame we never kept ours

given them because the F-111s were taking far too long to be delivered

only to decide we liked them so much we'd actually like to buy them

really cool pain jobs too

[spiral cedar]

Is a pain job when there is too much friction

[desert agate]

paint job

[ivory ridge]

all nations upgrading their phantoms to hell and back meanwhile Italy

[desert agate]

stupid keyboard

[ivory ridge]

hmm yess, pencil

[spiral cedar]

Or just French bread

[desert agate]

RAAF: hey we wanna lose a squadron of Mirages so we can maintain this exceptional capability given to us by the Phantom
government: lol no

alas a not uncommon story in Australian military acquisition

anything to maintain the uh
Australian Defence Basketball Association though

[ivory ridge]

kekw

[shrewd pecan]

replaced by the 35

[shrewd pecan]

aussies do always have the best camo schemes when it comes to vehicles

[eternal veldt]

Time for a bit of too much wanking

[thorn trail]

What the...

[eternal veldt]

Yes, Second Narvik did take a toll on German DDs

No, it was not Warspite that did all the work

There's a bit more wanking on Cape Matapan too, but that seems less miniscule compared to this

[chilly osprey]

[eternal veldt]

The tale of Warspite might be very different too if the German torpedoes at Narvik on the two german submarines did not malfunction, but of course, no ifs in History

[chilly osprey]

Dare I ask where on reddit this is?

Ah, nvm

[eternal veldt]

It's the weeb one.

You know what, Phoenix, let's give you another gigatake on the Littorios

Roma got "one shot" by Fritz X, Warspite lived, therefore, Warspite good, Roma bad

[thorn trail]

What the

HUH

[eternal veldt]

Never mind that Warspite was crippled and Turret X permanently out of action, and Roma was unluckily hit adjacent to the 152 and 381mm magazines

[thorn trail]

of course any hit to the magazines would destroy any BB

[chilly osprey]

Fortunately someone already made the point, so I don't have to touch on it lol

[eternal veldt]

yeap.

Though, same post says Italia was hit only once, IIRC, Italia was hit twice?

once near the bow and punched clean through

[chilly osprey]

Hit once, the second was a near miss iirc

Which you can technically count as a hit

[thorn trail]

wait where is this reddit post from

[eternal veldt]

Near misses from bombs to Cesare did kick the Pugliese into action IIRC, so I'll count that

[chilly osprey]

But, yeah, I'd say if anything it's a credit to Roma's structural strength that she took 20 minutes to sink after her forward magazines deflagrated

[eternal veldt]

Structurally held too until the ship capsized

[chilly osprey]

Versus, you know, blowing up and sinking in three minutes like certain other ships her size

[spiral cedar]

Structural strength or powder differences

[eternal veldt]

Hood sank in..uh.... 5 minutes?

not sure if it's the explosive load that matters here.

[spiral cedar]

That's a hit

It's just a passthrough hit

[chilly osprey]

The forward one, yes

But then there's also the near-miss aft that blew up in the water, which caused slight damage to the main rudder and the flooding of a fuel compartment

[eternal veldt]

The real tinfoil hat here is that Roma should have removed the stripes like her two other sisters

[chilly osprey]

lol

Alternatively, the navy should have embraced Campini's DAAC in 1940 - and Roma should have shot down the German bombers with SAMs

[eternal veldt]

Granted, the stripes were already reduced in intensity

[chilly osprey]

that or, you know, have fighter escorts aloft

[eternal veldt]

Put a few more Re.2000s on the catapults

[spiral cedar]

They should have emptied the powder magazines before leaving port

[eternal veldt]

just don't fire the guns

[chilly osprey]

should have built Bonfiglietti's carrier in place of Bolzano

should have given Ugo Tiberio the budget he asked for to develop radar before the war

[thorn trail]

DAAC?

Also question: I kept hearing about how German guns always disable their own radar. Why is that? A design flaw?

[eternal veldt]

It's just usually Bismarck being used as the poster child of that case.

Norfolk and Suffolk were shadowing the ship, and at one time, tailed just a bit too close, and Bismarck opened fire, presumably on extreme bearings

[thorn trail]

Yeah but I heard that the Scharnhorst class also had that problem

[eternal veldt]

Scharnhorst got her radar knocked out by enemy gunfire at North Cape if that's what "radar disabled" meant

Both USS New Jersey and Massachusetts also knocked their radars out at different action times - so it's definitely not just a German thing

[chilly osprey]

DAAC was a surface-to-air missile developed by Secondo Campini prior to WWII, with MCLOS guidance. It was successfully tested in April 1940 against target balloons, but the military never embraced the weapon and he ended up taking his project to Germany, where it got folded into the Hs 117 program.

It was pretty immature technology for that point in time, so I was mostly joking about using it during the war - though Ansaldo apparently had some interest in using it as what would have effectively been an early anti-ship missile.

[eternal veldt]

There's also this for German radar

during the action off Lofoten

[spiral cedar]

Losing own radar to gun blast, especially for battleships, was common early war and into midwar

KGV, 1941

At 0929 the Type 284 radar on King George V was disabled by the shock effects of the repeated gun blasts. A soldered connection in the volt control panel failed. The radar operators kept trying to make repairs, but it became necessary to use the Type 279 radar for ranging. The smoke from fires on Bismarck, the cordite gun smoke and funnel smoke from King George V and Rodney, and the shell splashes ringing the German battleship had made the use of radar imperative.

Massachusetts, 1942

One of the great advancements in the last few years in Naval gunnery has been Radar. By constant practice, we have reached such a degree of perfection with the use of our radars that we depend greatly upon them for ranges during an approach in any kind of weather. If it is hazy, or the weather conditions are such that the target cannot be distinctly seen by the director trainers, we are able to stay on the target with ... high ... accuracy by following the Radar in train. Our radars have held up beautifully ..., even during target practices with reduced velocity charges. But, when we commenced to shoot service velocity charges, ... the radars failed. FC Radar #1, used by Spot One, failed early in the day and was not back in operation until ... practically all of the firing had been completed. FC Radar #2, used by Spot Two, was in and out all day and, at times when both optical and Radar ranges could be obtained, they varied so greatly that the spotter feared the Radar was not reliable for use. During the part of the battle in which we were engaging enemy light forces, neither Main Battery Radar was performing properly. We were set back ... in that we had to operate entirely optically and could only bring a target under fire when it became visible through the smoke. This loss was felt very keenly and was costly in that many more salvos were required ... than would have been necessary if we could have ranged, trained, and spotted by Radar through the smoke. It is urgently recommended that an immediate study be commenced of the effect of shock on all our Radars and equipment.

[ivory ridge]

Warspite wanking

ironically she is the ship that got me into naval history

but

there is a limit to how much something should be wanked

[spiral cedar]

Wanking is fine

Falsity is not

Therein is the crucial distinction

[fierce sparrow]

[remote monolith]

been a while since the last bad nuke take post here so

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/561819125521973249/1056047477519818874/w97vz8ffts7a1.png

OP's own words https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/561819125521973249/1056048547214147625/image.png

[fierce sparrow]

bad nuke take ehh..?

[eternal veldt]

"mein opa" argument

[valid trout]

[sullen canyon]

That argument there was "Either we get into a highly drawn out land war with Japan which could cause high casualties, or we just nuke them until they surrender."

Granted that is from the US outlook of what they wanted to do.

[kindred reef]

The nukes saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of U.S. and Soviet soldiers

[sullen canyon]

That's the only way you can defend it in a way, but also civilian casualties would of been a thing too as well

[kindred reef]

Yeah a full scale land invasion would have likely killed many civilians like in Germany

[sullen canyon]

So it was kind of like, "Nuke major cities until they surrender, or get into firefights everywhere they went for a land invasion."

[kindred reef]

Either Japanese cities had to be bombed or allied soldiers had to die so I guess rather them than us

If I were japan I would have surrendered after the first nuke

[eternal veldt]

Or, just dont start invading your neighbours

[kindred reef]

Yeah

Truly an axis moment to invade peaceful countries

[fierce sparrow]

https://twitter.com/JonHawkes275/status/1606211760113045504

Jon Hawkes (@JonHawkes275)

The French Boirault Machine from WW1, flagrantly abusing the definitional boundaries of a tracked vehicle. The later v2 had an armoured structure, but neither took off on account of little to no steering, slow, fragile, and generally mad/rubbish.

Likes

450

▶ Play video

Twitter · Dec 23, 2022, 8:55 AM

[thorn trail]

Question: What's with the camo design on the ships?

[desert agate]

https://twitter.com/scotty_thomo/status/1606522415940775937?s=20&t=6c2NWDLASMAeSeBmsAfLjQ

Scott Thompson (@scotty_thomo)

#OTD #ChristmasEve Bougainville, 1944, troops of the #Australian🇦🇺 9th Infantry Battalion receive their Aussie comfort funds Christmas hampers at Battalion HQ
No doubt, gratefully received after the previous months campaign where the 9th were involved in heavy fighting
1/

Twitter · Dec 24, 2022, 5:29 AM

[alpine onyx]

What the fuck am I reading?

[dapper parcel]

WoWS tells me DD can singlehandedly take on a BB

[junior trench]

nobody tell them what Washington did to Ayanami and Kirishima in short order

[eternal veldt]

The Measure 31, 32, 33 patterns are known as "Dazzle patterns". The application of these camouflages are not to make the ship less visible, but to make determining the direction of the ship and its shape much more difficult. It was through protracted observations and development that these patterns were developed:

In August 1942 the American forces began the invasion of Guadalcanal - one of the southern islands of the Solomons chain. The Americans Navy had started the great offensive, one that would end in August 1945 at the shores of Japan. As the Navy moved from a defensive role to an offensive one, so did the camouflage change, from designs and colors intended primarily to conceal, to ones that caused course deception along with a secondary measure of type confusion. The genesis of these course deception designs began in mid-1942 with the introduction of Measure 17, on three ships; the carrier SANTEE, cruiser AUGUSTA, and tanker CHICOPEE. The person responsible was Everett Warner, the same one who had produced course deception designs in 1917-18. This expertise, backed by his enthusiasm, convinced the navy to try out his ideas. No reports have been found on the three vessels that used Measure 17, but the principles must have survived the test, because in March 1943 several course deception patterns were issued covering a wide variety of ship types and classes. The new camouflage designs (unofficially known as dazzle designs') although trying to achieve only one main aim, were divided into three types, Measure 31 where the average tone was dark for use in strong sunlight, Measure 32 with the average being of medium tone, and Measure 33, the average tone being light, for use in areas where overcast skies prevailed. For use with Measures 32 and 33, two new colors were added to the purple blue range. The new colors were 5-P Pale Gray and 5-L Light Gray, both being substantially lighter in tone than 5-H Haze Gray. In all these measures there was extensive use of white countershading as a way to eliminate shadows and shaded areas.

Each design had a master drawing that depicted how the pattern should appear for a specific class of ship. Everett Warner, who in early 1942 had been rehired as a consultant by the Navy, just as he had been during World War I, approved each drawing. Most drawings were sent out with his initials and an approval date. A total of well over 300 different design drawings, most with two sheets were produced and distributed to over a thousand different ships during 1943 and 1944.

However, they were unpopular, due to how egregious they looked:

Virtually all of the 1943 designs had patterns and colors arranged in such a way so as to create the maximum amount of course deception, almost without regard to any other aspect. This emphasis of course made any ship so painted extremely conspicuous, regardless of weather conditions. On many designs the decks carried a disruptive pattern of 20B and 5-0, hoping to achieve a degree of false heading from aerial observation. As expected this led to a negative reaction among many in the fleet, in the same way as it had initially done in WW I.

Even though a large amount of ships were painted with the MS31/32/33 system, they were widely unpopular, with academic/scientific arguments that concealment should be prioritised, and disruption second. The arguments are so much so that Warner himself flew out to the fleet and did some observations himself and provided a report afterwards.

Without quoting the whole report, Part C of the report summarized the dazzle system as followings:

C. 33 answers to CoMServPac Conf. Ltr., Serial 02164, dated 2 August 1944, states;

1.) 69% state pattern measures are effective.

  31% state pattern measures are ineffective.

2.) 52.6% state the measures are suitable.

  47.4% state the measures are unsuitable.

3.) A wide variety of conflicting opinion was expressed by Pacific Fleet forces on the suitability of any one method of painting to meet the tactical situations that might arise. Designs planned for and effective at distant and intermediate ranges were frequently judged by their conspicuousness close aboard, but in general the Fleet comments were very constructive and helpful.

3. Measure 21 is now proposed for a large group of ships and in some cases ComServPac has directed its application in East Coast yards. This measure is known to increase the visibility of ships in the Pacific ocean areas. Likewise Measure 22 is requested to replace pattern measures although it has been shown by observation, test, and Fleet opinion to he less effective. On the other hand, the Bureau has already embarked upon a program of modification it has every right to believe sound since it is based on observations and a broad Fleet opinion. The changes and modifications proposed by the Bureau are listed in detail in Enclosure (J).

Ultimately, by December 1944, the Pacific Fleet retained the rights to decide what ships will be painted in what right, rather than by BuShips as requested - Therefore, ships coming (back) from the US now had modified MS21/22/12 systems with neutral greys, and became widespread once again.

TL;DC;DR: Dazzle patterns like those are meant to disrupt enemy prediction of the ship's movement and direction, and thus hinder the enemy's chance of hitting said ship. It was not liked well enough, and given the higher need to conceal the ship rather than disrupting an attack, it only appeared in a widespread manner briefly between 1943-1945, before the uniform Measures of 21, 22, 12 took over once again.

For reference, these are how Measures 12,21, 22 looked.

[spiral cedar]

“The smaller caliber gun had a lower muzzle velocity, so therefore it must have had a heavier shell”

[dapper parcel]

Did they even bother to maybe look at the gun....

[shrewd pecan]

🤨 using penetration at 3,000 meters as a comparison post

also using APCR as a comparison round

[thorn trail]

Thank you for the comprehensive answer.

[silver crest]

who the fuck made a nightcore version of Faccetta Nera

[ivory ridge]

There is a version with tan anime girls if you prefer

[silver crest]

yes

i saw that one

[sullen canyon]

[sullen canyon]

Wait what? I need to know what this is for..... research purposes

[ivory ridge]

Gonna ping you in the lore server, can't post it here

Eurasian times tries to not be clueless about military procurement challenge (impossible)

Mostly a clickbait title, but still

[spring briar]

[eternal veldt]

hmmmmmm.....

[manic latch]

Max Payload C-17 170,900 lbs, M1A2 Abrams weighs 145,000 lbs

1 Abrams per C-17

[dapper parcel]

Eurasian Times is literally open publishing
You random guy probably can send almost any articles to them and it'll get published

That's why their articles are half certain event copeganda, half random western company PR buzzword

I won't be surprised if that one was from SAAB

[desert agate]

a C-17 can carry 1 Abrams and 2 Bushmaster PMVs
I would presume other operators of the type would utilise the additional space of the C-17 to carry their own PMVs or hardware to provide additional versatility

[dapper parcel]

I doubt anyone will load anything else when they carry an Abrams

170,900 lbs payload is practically not carrying any fuel

[desert agate]

i can personally verify that RAAF does indeed carry 1 Abrams + 2 PMVs on their C-17s

albeit M1A1

[maiden citrus]

I skip the middleman and attach the wings directly to the abrams

[dapper parcel]

C-17 burns approx 10 tons of fuel per hour, substract that from the payload appropriately

[desert agate]

rather inconveniently for myself imperial doesn't really work in my head but RAAF does these flights generally up and down the East Coast or up to Darwin for exercises

[dapper parcel]

Yeah, the moment they need to carry them to ME for example they'll ends up carry nothing

Probably not even enough for M1A1, not that it's what they're for anyway

[desert agate]

ADF never deployed MBTs to the Middle East afaik

as for the Americans I was under the impression they mainly deployed them by sea into Saudi Arabia before Iraq

[dapper parcel]

Any significant prepositioning will be done via sealift

Airlift is done mainly for proof of capability, or when they have nothing else to do
"I can do that, why not"

[desert agate]

i'd also note that it's a solid 3000km from Brisbane (where the C-17s are based) to Darwin flying in a headwind

[dapper parcel]

Sounds about right with 50 tons of fuel

[spiral cedar]

[thorn trail]

When did Yamato fire at heavy cruisers?!?! Don't remember Yamato sorteing properly till like Leyte Gulf

[spiral cedar]

She did sortie other times, just didn’t get to shoot stuff

And the answer is never, she never shot at Allied CAs

I sometimes share very dumb Quora answers for amusement purposes

[spring briar]

Explosions miraculously going up instead of down

[thorn trail]

There's a lot of dumb bullshit in Quora

[valid trout]

I’m so confused this never happened where the heck did this guy get his info from? His brain?

[spring briar]

Confusing savo island with okinawa or smth

[valid trout]

That would make a bit more sense

[solid mango]

It was revealed to him in a dream

[eternal veldt]

Yamato did shoot at Johnston and White Plains

Though, I forgot if the IJN did report they are engaging Baltimore-classes or not

[valid trout]

But never at CAs

[thorn trail]

Wait I read somewhere that the IJN sometime confuse BBs and CAs due to most US CAs being three-gun/triple turrets. Is that true?

[spiral cedar]

It happened sometimes, yes

At 2nd Guadalcanal the US BBs were identified as CAs by some spotters

[eternal veldt]

I don't think triple gun is the issue here

[thorn trail]

The engagement of Kirishima vs SoDak and Washington right?

[spiral cedar]

Others correctly noted them as BBs, but because the Admiral in charge believed reports that no US BBs were in the “Slot,” he believed them to be CAs until too late

[spiral cedar]

Yes

[eternal veldt]

rather, two funnels, with their distinctive funnel caps, and a tower mast, makes them hard to recognise

I can see Baltimores/Clevelands/Fletchers being easily mixed up for different, heavier contenders

[delicate beacon]

The Japanese thought they spotted an allied BB at Bilton whilst the largest ship stationed there was a Houston, and that one wasnt even there. The biggest was an Exeter that fleet.

[spiral cedar]

Lt. Ichiro sees the first, second and third torpedo enter the water followed suddenly by an explosion. He realizes that one of the torpedoes has exploded prematurely. In his post war interviews, VAdm Kondo stated that he was stunned at this time by the realization that he was engaged with US battleships. Atago's lookouts reported," There is another ship forward of the first, a big battleship!" They identify the second battleship as an Idaho class and that she is awash up to her main deck and sinking by the bow.

[valid trout]

Was there even an Idaho class in WW2?

[eternal veldt]

for even giga funny, if the Alaskas were built to a different proposal and according to their original plans

You get Mega-baltimore

[spiral cedar]

The main time the mis-IDs happened, of course, was with undertrained pilots. Hence the IJN claiming many BBs sunk when none were even attacked, in the 1944-1945 air battles

[eternal veldt]

New Mexico class, yes

[valid trout]

Basically Puerto Rico but smaller main guns

[eternal veldt]

The Japanese also use "California-class" for the Tennessee/Colorado class, which are relatively close

[valid trout]

Oh ok, that confused me for a sec

[eternal veldt]

No, CA2-D IS Puerto Rico

just that WG went along the lines with Alaska, but as seen here, clearly, much more of a cruiser layout

[thorn trail]

Question. What was the most ridiculous BB design made by the US? I want to try making it in Ultimate Admiral Dreadnoughts

[eternal veldt]

I tried already

UAD will not allow you to do it

[thorn trail]

What was the design?

[eternal veldt]

UAD's stinky poopoo restrictions and bad optimization can honestly go fuck itself

[thorn trail]

are those unsymmetrical guns

[eternal veldt]

Yes.

and superfiring.

[thorn trail]

Also huh yeah you can't put the main towers that back in US Ships

but somehow you can do that in many HMS Ships

[spiral cedar]

#history message

[eternal veldt]

This is what CA2-D would look like, if built entirely to the plan above

[solid mango]

Ah speaking of misidentifications, may I ask what are the ships Columbia (56) sunk, as much as I would like to believe it, but 2 BBs? Imma take that with some grain o' salt

[eternal veldt]

bad photo

[solid mango]

Welp, was too late now that its turned to ship designs

[eternal veldt]

Columbia was in action at Surigao Strait IIRC

which did send Fuso and Yamashiro to the bottom

yeap

Noteworthy enough, Denver did some funny and friendly fired at a destroyer

[solid mango]

Ah

[eternal veldt]

Unknown casualties, but the DD gladly made it out after getting smashed to pieces

[solid mango]

Yep I was just reading tru Denver a few days ago

Still dont know how a ship is given the kill

[eternal veldt]

I'd also note that the US also had similar class systems on their side

i.e Terutsuki-class cruiser (sic) > Akizuki-class destroyer
Isuzu-class cruiser > Kuma class cruiser

Fuso was also romanised as "Huso" at one point

There we go. TF 77's reports mostly stick to this IIRC.

[solid mango]

Hosyo

Mutu

[delicate beacon]

Don't make me show Dutch romanisation

[spiral cedar]

The guy also seems to be a Young-Earth Creationist, so

Attachment to reality does seem tenuous at best

[eternal veldt]

looks okay?

[thorn trail]

Of course the dude is anti-vaxx aswell

[eternal veldt]

Usually appears to the observer that the target is sunk = credit given

[solid mango]

Oh god

[eternal veldt]

That's how Boise got an inflated kill count at Cape Esperance, even if in reality only Furutaka and Fubuki bit the bullet

[eternal veldt]

Haroena

Hit, change your name now

[solid mango]

Ive seen the Nagato one before when using a translator but oh god these are new

[delicate beacon]

Haroena is pronounced the same as Haruna

[desert agate]

I recall some very interesting romanisaton of Japanese ships on the identification tables at the forts in Fremantle

[eternal veldt]

Yea, I can understand that

[delicate beacon]

Dutch just has different digraphs.

[desert agate]

[eternal veldt]

Because they're ripped exactly from my book

I've seen the photos - no mistake they are from Jane's

[desert agate]

oh lmao

[solid mango]

Heijei

[desert agate]

yeah i posted the pics here somewhere

cant find them tho

💀

which just means i gotta visit the forts again

[eternal veldt]

these?

[desert agate]

yeah probs

speaking of forts i was in Albany earlier this week

went to the fort

saw the guns

and the fucking track to the command bunker was overgrown

mother fuckers i wanna seeeee

[eternal veldt]

I'll tell you what's hard though

[delicate beacon]

Screw breech

[eternal veldt]

Reading the Japanese ship names in Cantonese 💀

Hiei took me some time

[desert agate]

old guns

afaik one of them is 1890s model

the other is significantly newer

king george sound is just as cool as ever tho

[solid mango]

Seeing images of people going to historical places makes me want ot visit Yamato Museum and other few museums all over the world more and more

[desert agate]

also need to go see the guns on Rottnest soon

[eternal veldt]

I've got a cool shot of me posing in front of Vampire's guns

[desert agate]

might be visiting the Yamato museum next year

[eternal veldt]

none of you are seeing it though

[spiral cedar]

I found a Quora person saying HMS London is a rival to USS Baltimore for “best WWII heavy cruiser” saying that
A) London has better guns
B) Neither has better armor(!)
C) London has better “logistics” (because of a smaller rated complement of crew, and because she has “lifeboats”)
D) Because of the above they are tied for best WWII heavy cruiser

[thorn trail]

Wait any other design that was weird as fuck?

[spiral cedar]

[eternal veldt]

See what Jaba linked

[desert agate]

Guns off HMAS Torrens

[eternal veldt]

basically the period between Colorado - NC = weird as fuck design hell

[thorn trail]

Sadly there's no Aircraft carrier in UAD so I can't make that

[delicate beacon]

Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

*hisses*

[solid mango]

Plz take images of the 14cm 3rd year im beg

[desert agate]

ft: friend looking into the hole

[thorn trail]

Also weren't the Lexington's supposed to be armed with 16in?

[eternal veldt]

IIRC London's rebuild wasn't great either

[delicate beacon]

Jaba, please, for your own sanity, get off Quora.

[eternal veldt]

16", yes, but armour is piss poor

[delicate beacon]

It's like Campbell but worse.

[eternal veldt]

178mm only

[desert agate]

fun fact footage of the SINKEX that Torrens was disposed of in is often used in propaganda and movies, notably by North Korea

[eternal veldt]

and the most innovative torpedo defence system I've ever seen

[thorn trail]

Was just making sure because UAD thinks that US Battlecruiser hulls can only carry 15in

[eternal veldt]

boilers as TDS!

[thorn trail]

Wait the Lexington had boilers as anti torpedoes?

HUH?!?!

[desert agate]

Also SM-1

[eternal veldt]

Moreso pointing out how it's virtually nonexistent

can't bulge it for spid

[desert agate]

and thats an Ikara

[thorn trail]

The placement of the boilers is a death wish

[eternal veldt]

It's a good call to get them converted into CVs

[thorn trail]

I mean, putting the boilers on the side in a ship where speed is key is a death kneel

[eternal veldt]

turbines, not boilers

[eternal veldt]

or... erm, boilers. Can't fucking read.

[thorn trail]

It says boilers tho

[eternal veldt]

Yeap, can't read.

[spiral cedar]

Don’t worry, the KGVs had diesel generators as their TDS

[desert agate]

One of the shells fired by HMAS Anzax on Five inch Friday

no regal to ping and show it to tho

[thorn trail]

Where there any plans by the US or British to make 18in BBs?

[spiral cedar]

For citadel armour, then the London wins handedly. The citadel armour on the London was 25–102mm thick at the sides, whilst Baltimore did not have any and relied on its belt. When combining the citadel armour with the belt armour, the London had a maximum of 191mm of armour, compared to the Baltimore’s 152mm of maximum armour. This allowed London to better preserve her vitals in case of battle damage.

[desert agate]

[eternal veldt]

Toilets are also part of the TDS of the KGVs

[desert agate]

the British did make an 18in CL

[eternal veldt]

Various Iowa-class proposals had 18" gun proposals

[spiral cedar]

CLB

[solid mango]

God damn it britain what more cursed shiet are you hiding from me

[eternal veldt]

The 1934 Maximum BB, kid you not, considered guns up to 24 inches

It was not possible, so it was downscaled to 20" very quickly

[thorn trail]

Also watching that Historigraph on the sinking of Shinano made me realize what the fuck the Armored Citadel was for the first time

[solid mango]

What is its name?

[thorn trail]

And made me realize why my ships in UAD were easy to cripple

[eternal veldt]

Furious

[spiral cedar]

HMS Furious

[solid mango]

Br

[thorn trail]

I keep forgetting to put Citadel armor

[eternal veldt]

better known as Outrageous and Spurious

[desert agate]

HMS Furious sporting one of her planned 2 18in guns

[spiral cedar]

UAD is not an accurate model of warship damage

[thorn trail]

Was the design like uh Nelson like?

[eternal veldt]

No/

[desert agate]

as she was in pure technicality a light cruiser

[solid mango]

Ah before the carrier config?

[desert agate]

because Fisher wanted a battlecruiser

[thorn trail]

Definitely yeah but my ships were more vulnerable than I realized because i forget to armor the citadel in UAD

[desert agate]

the treasury wouldnt give him the money for one

so he just uh

made a battlecruiser and called it a CL

classic Fisher

[solid mango]

Nani da fack desu

[eternal veldt]

It's just fucking huge

[desert agate]

Oh also here's the bell of IJN Ibuki

which is very surprisingly not in Japan

i honestly dont know how it ended up in WA

[spiral cedar]

I had a fierce time with the First Lord - Very fierce!

"The 18in was ordered by the Admiralty (ie Fisher) direct from Elswick, the only firm with plant to handle such huge pieces. The Ordnance Board were simply bypassed, which was probably illegal"```

[eternal veldt]

Furious was the first of the three Courageous to be converted into a full CVs

The other two were improved but....dead pretty early in WW2

[desert agate]

like maybe we stole the bell during the occupation of Japan

[solid mango]

So, scale of a Battlecruiser, labelled a light Cruiser... With 18 inch guns...

[desert agate]

i cant think of the Japanese wilfully giving it up

[eternal veldt]

Fisher, never stop being Fisher

[solid mango]

Fuck I need some Fisherium rn

Where can I find it

[eternal veldt]

...Salvaged, perhaps?

Canberra's bell is sitting in Sydney now if I remember

[thorn trail]

Fisher was the one who hated Dreadnoughts and wanted battlecruisers right despite being the one who asked for the dreadnought?

[desert agate]

Ibuki was scrapped

which tells me that a genuine effort to save the bell was made

maybe by souvenir hunters

or by private collectors

only to somehow end up in Albany

[spiral cedar]

Kinda, yeah

[thorn trail]

Ah

[spiral cedar]

Later he even went full sub spam crazy

[thorn trail]

This is the Amagi class Ibuki right?

[desert agate]

Ibuki class Ibuki

[thorn trail]

One of the bells of the battlecruiser Ibuki (伊吹) (1907), in addition to the ship’s wheel [164] and a model of the vessel [165], were promised to the Australian government in 1923, after the acting Prime Minister, Earl Page, requested a memento of the vessel that was in the process of being broken up [166].

[desert agate]

the battlecruiser/armoured cruiser

huh

[spiral cedar]

I have been unceasingly and assiduously devoting both my waking and even my sleeping thoughts to submarines, and oil and the oil engine is the germ of their vitality..... The oil engine will govern all sea-fighting, and all sea-fighting is going to be governed by submarines...

Fisher, 1913

[eternal veldt]

In return for their kindness, you guys sent Hobart to Japan to be broken up /s

[spiral cedar]

And in June, Fisher welcomed the prospect of the hostile naval powers building dreadnoughts that he expected would be useless in war in the face of the submarine. “Austria and Italy,” he explained to Corbett on 22 June 1914, “will continue to dig out vigorously to build Dreadnoughts against each other, and the Grand-Admiral Köster, the head of the German Navy League, will carry his point for 2 extra Dreadnoughts, so the Triple Alliance will lavish their money on vessels that will be securely blockaded by our submarines, as the Mediterranean and North Sea will be securely locked up.”

[desert agate]

[thorn trail]

I wonder what would have happened if Fisher lived to see the Aircraft carrier

[spiral cedar]

“Submarines,” he insisted to Arnold White on 13 March 1913, “are the coming Dreadnoughts...

In May, Fisher again wrote to Jellicoe, urging that “for God’s sake, do get on SOMEHOW with building more submarines at once, no matter what drawbacks.”

[desert agate]

where did you find this anyway?

i wanna dig deeper

[thorn trail]

https://www.mdpi.com/2571-9408/4/1/3

[eternal veldt]

The aircraft carrier is kinda there already - seaplane tenders are a thing

[desert agate]

ooh

interesting

[thorn trail]

This paper talks about Ship bells

and where they ended up

[eternal veldt]

I'm more curious what Fisher commented after the loss of the 3 BCs at Jutland - not talked a lot about

[desert agate]

aight so thats how the bell ended up in Albany

i'd like to see the internal Japanese discussion on the topic

Australian-Japanese relations in the early 20s were not the best after Versailles

not after the whole... New Guinea thing anyway