history

[frigid karma]

Got a sauce for this

[spiral cedar]

Alan D. Zimm's Attack on Pearl Harbor

[frigid karma]

Danke

[somber knoll]

cause iirc as much as Tovey wanted to sink Bisko, he didn't send 54 ships to blow her up.

The Home Fleet was, and it was only 13 last time I recall.

[spiral cedar]

This is the bomb the Val carried

Perfectly fine against cruisers

Shit at taking out ground facilities

[eternal veldt]

🍿

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1597417003840864257

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1974, two torpedoes from the submarine JDS Narushio sank a Japanese tanker that had been burning for 17 days after colliding with a freighter in Tokyo Bay. The JMSDF towed the tanker to sea and used it for target practice before the Narushio performed the coup de grâce.

▶ Play video

Twitter · Nov 29, 2022, 2:27 AM

[remote monolith]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/603819403821318144/1047075772705296424/unknown.png The Storming of Kediri during Trunojoyo's Rebellion by VOC troops, artwork by Willem Steelink Jr. (1890)

notably this was one of the largest warfare in Javanese history as both sides mobilized up to 20,000 troops each\

it also involved a suddenly marauding band of several thousand Makassarese fighters fresh from the wars between Makassar and VOC and looking for ooportunities for revenge

[subtle prawn]

https://news.usni.org/2022/11/28/navy-exploring-surface-strike-upgrades-for-zumwalt-destroyers

[solid mango]

[bleak adder]

https://battleship.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Missouri

[manic latch]

[desert agate]

[spring briar]

[delicate beacon]

Oh boy

[tepid mulch]

Any of you got an idea of how much horses cost in 1200s England?

[delicate beacon]

What a dumpsterfire the UK and US were in SEA

[tepid mulch]

Ok nvm, did some reading and it turned out to be very costly

[thorny jewel]

The Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor was the united states exclusive stealth fighter that was built for 15 years from 1996 to 2011 with total of nearly 200 units (187 were operational while the 8 were the prototypes), the US government were banning the export of this fighter even to their close allies to prevent the stealth technology from exposed by other country

[delicate beacon]

What the fuck

US command in Manila holding a discussion. When naval topics started McCunter instantly went kthxbai

[desert agate]

macarthur moment

mmmm worst 6 star of the war

[autumn sorrel]

Why did the Brit have so much carrier class in WW2? Most I read about them is that they are just improvement add during construction to create sub class, why did the Royal Navy do that?

[fierce sparrow]

scrolling up and sees...

"Upgrades for Zumwalt Destroyers

[solid mango]

This channel is pure entertainment

[delicate beacon]

What the fuck 2.0

DEI defence purchases were almost all denied by the US because they thought the Netherlands Indies were to tied to Germany and therefore Nazis?
And the thinks they did allow, and was paid for, they resold to other customers at random intervals.

[delicate beacon]

Mostly any navy did that. It just depends on when people feel like considering a ship a new subclass.
Homogenity isn't that important with ships either, as compared to a tank or aircraft where for repair and training reasons standardisation is important

[desert agate]

And the Americans didn't do the same?
The British primarily stuck to the Illustrious class design for the basis of the later implacable class because it made design work faster and also construction, as it meant workers and designers weren't working with any drastically new concepts and could use the knowledge they had gained with the prior ships, but as time progressed the British also recognised that they needed improvements as lessons about what works and what doesn't are integrated
The 1942 design light fleet carriers are a prime example of this
When the Colossus class first entered service the British realised that the ships needed improvement, so the design was reworked with a reinforced flight deck and superior aircraft handling facilities, creating the Majestics
When you look at a navy like the US well, the Essex class is an improved version of the Yorktown class, sharing many design features while also being considerably larger and featuring the lessons of the older ships, and then when it was realised that the design needed to be modified for better sea keeping, they created the "long hull" variant, which under British classification would be a sub-class

[eternal veldt]

Then we go into the mess that are CVLs ans CVEs

Otherwise known as "just convert that hull into a flat top" or "shit one out on an average of a week"

Also the slight desperation that are MAC ships - slap a flight deck on that tanker and go

[delicate beacon]

MACs were pretty good though, in contrast to the other programs

[eternal veldt]

There are the funnily reverse named CAM ships

But those planes have to ditch once the threat is over, so no recovery possible

I'd also note that each of the Yorktowns had slight differences too at their respective launches - until destroyed or modified in the war.

Insufficently to be a subclass, but it's there.

[alpine onyx]

Just like the Hippers or Deutschlands

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1597627463185870848

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1944, the Imperial Japanese Navy aircraft carrier Shinano was torpedoed and sunk by USS Archerfish (SS-311) just 10 days after being commissioned. The Shinano was the largest carrier built at that time and remains the largest warship to be sunk by a submarine.

Twitter · Nov 29, 2022, 4:24 PM

[somber knoll]

iirc it was half the price of a small house for the average horse. Warhorses tend to be more expensive depending on the specs.

[somber knoll]

also, they were experimenting and improving all the time, and only stayed with one design and further refining it when the Illustriouses had been built.

They also had WW1 battlecruiser and battleship hulls, so when WNT and LNT struck, they had no choice but convert and experiment with some of them to be carriers.

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1597672903092613120

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1941, Navy defeated Army in football. The game program featured a photo of USS Arizona with the caption "despite the claims of air enthusiast no battleship has yet been sunk by bombs." The Arizona would be sunk one week later by Japanese bombers at Pearl Harbor.

Twitter · Nov 29, 2022, 7:24 PM

[lavish fable]

... that's.. unfortunate

and a little sad

[tough quail]

moshi moshi

hubris desu

[frigid karma]

She making tourist bucks to this day tho

While hiryuu is in the middle of who knows where and only has tea as a simp

[strong plank]

reminds me of the whole bell thing with navy stadium

[tough quail]

hiryu meta actually released though

2-1

[strong plank]

they've got these two special bells they ring during Army-Navy games

lemme make sure I've got the details right

yeah so the naval academy in annapolis has two bells they use for football traditions

one of them is a replica of the bell given to Commodore Perry during his journey to the far east, and it's rung only if the navy beats the army

the other is Enterprise's bell, and it's rung continuously after the game until the team returns to their dorm

[frigid karma]

https://tenor.com/view/be-careful-around-the-faberic-of-reality-garfield-gif-21886462

[strong plank]

manjuu remembered they're legally obligated to release a new german whenever possible

[tough quail]

wait what

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91vS_Mh3U2Y

[frigid karma]

did they release a new one

🤮

what happened

[strong plank]

No I’m talking about the whole

“Oh shit Arizona META’s been seen on a test server and it’s the 80th anniversary of Pearl Harbor?”

“Nah give ‘em Gneisenau”

[frigid karma]

they needed to set up their uvh wank event

i remember when all of en-lore was shitting on me for malding at gneisenau meta

then

ToT shat on us all

[strong plank]

Ok we didn’t think the 2022 schedule would just inhale IB’s entire dong

[frigid karma]

i doubt they even know what day ph is

we'll get jintsuu meta next season just you watch

and then sendai or something

they'll just have sendai meta show up and save alaska's ass in december, watch

anyways we're going off topic

[tough quail]

i think the bigger issue is that arizona meta's design is

comedically bad compared to the rest of the newer ones

[frigid karma]

horse, move this to al lore before we get slapped

[tough quail]

implying literally anyone gives a shit

[frigid karma]

pin is out for my blood

👀

dont wanna risk it

[viscid crescent]

Talk about jinxing big time

[tribal mortar]

Bismarck was

[delicate beacon]

[subtle prawn]

Hi, do the Yamato-class battleships not exist to you?

[frigid karma]

Bismarck was second to a lot of ships mate

[tribal mortar]

What's that?

[frigid karma]

Do you not know what the Yamato is

[tribal mortar]

Nope

Oh yes I know now

The character from one piece

[frigid karma]

Mate there are better places to troll than here

Go act stupid in General

[tribal mortar]

Oh I'm not trolling

Well about Yamato yes

but everything I say about Bismarck is true

[subtle prawn]

So you’re telling me a battleship with only 8 380mm guns can beat a battleship displacing about 70,000 tons with 9 460mm guns here, got it

[frigid karma]

[delicate beacon]

This is history, not memes.

[frigid karma]

So what is your contention?

Muh turtleback?

Deustche quality radar?

[tribal mortar]

In the Atlantic in the pitch black? Most likely

[frigid karma]

Ah the radar argument

[manic latch]

Radar moment

[frigid karma]

You know Yamato also has radar right

And armor that works

[tribal mortar]

Yep

[frigid karma]

And ships beside iowa also have radar

[tribal mortar]

uh huh

[frigid karma]

Sodak would’ve shat over a Bismarck in the night

Bismarck best chance is to book it

[tribal mortar]

Doubt

[delicate beacon]

Where's that Rodney shooting the bridge meme

[frigid karma]

I have something better

[frigid karma]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/699927655188791357/1032469573783519283/bismarck_vs_history.mp4

[tribal mortar]

That's just duel rudder designed ships in general

If the turtleback armour wasn't effective then why did only 2 shells penetrate the hull?

[frigid karma]

Because the British moved in closer

Also

[tribal mortar]

The stern literally was welded on to make it more round

[frigid karma]

The citadel size was so compromised due to turtleback that iirc it was possible to sink her without penetrating the citadel

[tribal mortar]

Then why didn't the allies sink her?

[strong plank]

they did

[delicate beacon]

They .... Pretty much did just that

[frigid karma]

https://www.kbismarck.com/archives/survivor-reports.pdf

Kaptänleutnant von Müllenheim-Rechberg, when interrogated, ventured the opinion that “Bismarck” could still have held her own against “Rodney” and “King George V” had not a shell from, he believed H.M.S. “Dorsetshire”, hit the Main Control Position. This blew out “Bismarck’s” brains. Main armament was then put into local control and von Müllenheim-Rechberg moved to “B” turret which was ordered to engage H.M.S. “Dorsetshire”. Only one salvo was fired. The gun’s crew had become thoroughly demoralised and mutinied and left the turret saying: “We are not going to stay here for target practice.” Müllenheim-Rechberg also left the turret. Similar scenes were taking place all over the ship for at this time “Bismarck” was taking terrific punishment.

According to one prisoner one officer drew his revolver and shot down some of the crew when they refused to obey him. Turret after turret was silenced, and communications were wrecked. Shell after shell hit the upper deck which was speedily reduced to a mass of twisted steel scourged ever again by fresh shells. Fires had broker out amidships and aft. Sheets of flame were pouring out of the funnel and the ship’s four aircraft were also burning. One shot snapped the mainmast which spun down over the quarter deck creating fresh carnage. Slowly the ship began to heel to port, water began to pour below through ventilators on the port side, water also rendering two port secondary armament turrets useless. Below on the Battery Deck ratings fought to escape with others who jammed the companionways, afraid to run the gauntlet of fire sweeping the decks above. The order to “Abandon Ship” never reached many parts of the vessel. Groups of men acted independently for themselves, but many such groups were blown to pieces before they could leave the ship.

As regards the final phase of the destruction of the “Bismarck” a conversation between two prisoners is worthy of notice. One remarked that a number of members of Germany’s Propaganda Kompanie were on board who filmed the scenes during the last battle. His companion said: “If that film was ever shown in Germany there would be no more volunteers for the German Navy.”!

Ja kamerade, bismarck was definitely sunk by her own crew

[maiden citrus]

some of the immune zones in that calculation are hilarious, sodak turret faces are immune to like 4k yards

sodak would've 'shat' over a bismarck in any condition

[frigid karma]

Years of training for anti wherabooism paying off

[humble mulch]

Oh
whats going on in here

[frigid karma]

[humble mulch]

[frigid karma]

Wehrb breach

We’re doing nicely sir

[strong plank]

I forget who but didn't someone have the underwater pen report on bismarck

[humble mulch]

Yeah

we do have that

[frigid karma]

Baited the “scuttled” argument and shat over it

[humble mulch]

Jaba has posted it

[gentle viper]

that seems like the perfect scenario for the fast battleships

[tribal mortar]

I thought Bismarck got scuttled

[strong plank]

I want to say jaba but I don't remember

[gentle viper]

i dont know about you brother

[strong plank]

yea

[frigid karma]

With testimony of Bismarck survivors

[frigid karma]

Yeah that’s wherb cope

[delicate beacon]

She was technically scuttled.

[tribal mortar]

How?

[gentle viper]

But the North Carolina, South Dakota, and Etc would school the Bismarck

[tribal mortar]

Not really

[delicate beacon]

But she was already negatively bouyant before that

[tribal mortar]

It's a fact Bismarck was scuttled

[delicate beacon]

It only made her sink faster

[maiden citrus]

you see my ship didn't sink because I blew it up while it was sinking

so it was blown up, not sunk

[gentle viper]

"you cant fire me, i quit!"

[humble mulch]

Yeah So

put a source done for your claim

[gentle viper]

Bismarck got Schooled by the Fleet Air Arm

[humble mulch]

a real one

[gentle viper]

And the Rodney Battlegroup

and then she Scuttled IIRC which after all is a total brittish victory

[frigid karma]

In some ways yes, in other ways no. USS Hornet took hundreds of shells, and many more torpedoes than Bismarck, to finally go down, but people hardly credit that to the Yorktown’s protective scheme. The fact of the matter is that big ships take a long time to actually sink due to their volume, and that shells generally make holes above the waterline rather than below it, letting in air rather than water. Plenty of examples of ships taking a long time to actually sink despite extensive bombardment, e.g. HMS Monarch spending 9 hours as a gunnery target before going down. And it should be noted that the vast majority of the shells that hit Bismarck were cruiser caliber; the large-caliber hits that would actually threaten her floatation were a small minority of the hits.

But it does speak some positives of her design—that despite having a magazine fire she was able to avoid a detonation, which at least means her damage control was not much worse than Kirishima’s (Turret Bruno suffered a deflagration that lifted it partially out of the barbette before flooding extinguished the magazine fire, a performance comparable to, or somewhat worse than, Kirishima’s crews flooding her cordite magazines to prevent them from exploding). So the fact that she did not outright detonate is a plus, even if that bar is so low that Kirishima passed it when under 16” fire. But as others have noted, most of the hits consisted of overturning rubble on an already-sinking ship with devastated upper works. As BuShips notes in Northampton’s damage report, ships that don’t sink in a few minutes, tend to sink over the course of several hours due to progressive flooding. Without using torpedoes and without being able to detonate her already-flooded magazines, the British could not achieve a quick sinking, so all that remained was using a slowly sinking ship as target practice.

Quoting Jaba

[strong plank]

did the crew set scuttling charges? yes
can those charges alone be credited with the sinking? no

[gentle viper]

not even Close

[tribal mortar]

Me?

[gentle viper]

The kill credit goes to Rodney

at least IMHO

[strong plank]

I'm trying to find the report because I swear they were able to gauge what contributed the most to her sinking

[frigid karma]

And quoting our resident spaghetti monster

[manic latch]

@alpine onyx

[tribal mortar]

You honestly want me to put a source to her scuttling?

[frigid karma]

Yes

Read the rules fumbass

[humble mulch]

Yes

[tribal mortar]

K then

[frigid karma]

They’re in pins

[tribal mortar]

Cope and seethe you got baited https://youtu.be/v7lC1wN4sIU

[delicate beacon]

I mean, she was technically scuttled.

[gentle viper]

i mean like one can argue that KGV deserves the Kill Credit

[tribal mortar]

🤣

[delicate beacon]

Did you just... Source yourself?

[gentle viper]

AH, THE CLASSIC TRICK

[frigid karma]

That’s your own video you moron

[maiden citrus]

Most experts agree that the battle damage would have caused her to sink

[tribal mortar]

Yep

[humble mulch]

what

[gentle viper]

We got Baited boys

[frigid karma]

Tea can you

Can you get the gun

[tribal mortar]

And in that video I use sources

[humble mulch]

well yeah that works

all I did was ask for a source

[strong plank]

anyway if we're wanking battleships, maybe wank one that didn't delete her own radar the first time she fired her guns

[humble mulch]

glad you made a video and went over it

[maiden citrus]

Bismarck was also slowly sinking due to an increasing list that allowed water to enter the ship via damage to the main deck

garzke

[tribal mortar]

Don't make me get the Drachinifel source out where I debated him over Bismarck being scuttled

[humble mulch]

ok hold up

[gentle viper]

or a Battleship that could Actually, you know, Shoot down aircraft?

[humble mulch]

isnt he like

[delicate beacon]

Mate, Drachinifel is a terrible source

[maiden citrus]

drach is anything but a source

[humble mulch]

Mid as fuck?

[tough quail]

two apes throwing shit at each other is not a good source

[humble mulch]

yeah hold up lmao

[frigid karma]

You mean the Wikipedia copier

[maiden citrus]

he makes blatant errors and it's all opinion stuff

[frigid karma]

Sure buddy

[humble mulch]

Yeah I know

I cant watch his stuff

[tepid mulch]

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/ca/41/37/431830d2e722eb/US3092060-drawings-page-1.png

[tribal mortar]

Oh no it's just that he came onto our podcast and me and him had a debate over Bismarck being scuttled or sunk

[humble mulch]

neat flying sub

[delicate beacon]

She was both.

[tepid mulch]

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/ce/e6/e9/1d3ab0b327e308/US3092060-drawings-page-2.png

[frigid karma]

Did he tell you you were totally wrong?

[tepid mulch]

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/15/38/39/74621e31e219b0/US3092060-drawings-page-3.png

[tribal mortar]

Long story short we couldn't answer the question because both points balanced out

[tribal mortar]

No he said it was a good counter argument

[strong plank]

go go gadget academic sources

[tepid mulch]

Here's the patent page if you want to read the full thing
https://patents.google.com/patent/US3092060A/en

[tribal mortar]

And civil

[strong plank]

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/12480849/the-wreck-of-dkm-bismarck-a-marine-forensics-analysis-1-the-

[tribal mortar]

I'm still laughing over the video plug in 🤣

[frigid karma]

They found massive fucking holes in the citadel armor from Rodney’s shells

So

Uh

[gentle viper]

Bismarck was 100% Sunk, Its not really a scuttle when you are on your very last leg and about to get pounded by an entire Battlegroup

[tribal mortar]

Literally the equivalent of me saying 'The source is I made it the fuck up'

[gentle viper]

Specially when you have no such thing as a belt or Superstructure anymore

[frigid karma]

No one is laughing but you mate

Well, I am laughing

But not withyou

[delicate beacon]

So uhm, what's the definition of scuttling?

[maiden citrus]

debate like that is exactly why wikipedia has trouble with primary sources

[tribal mortar]

Ah but where is your counter video to prove she was sunk?

[shrewd pecan]

no qwerty I'm laughing

[frigid karma]

at you

[humble mulch]

We dont need a counter video

[delicate beacon]

Garzke, Scroll up.

[shrewd pecan]

no at you qwerty

[frigid karma]

We use

[maiden citrus]

because people could write their own untrue book and it would be a 'primary source'

[humble mulch]

we have eyes

[frigid karma]

Literature

[strong plank]

saying bismarck was scuttled and not sunk is like saying japan was not defeated because they surrendered

[humble mulch]

and good sources

[frigid karma]

Instead of videos

From yourself

[gentle viper]

Brother, i will tell you another example

[humble mulch]

Also

before we clown

[gentle viper]

What about Akagi?

[tribal mortar]

Ah but my Garzke source said it was scuttled so you might want to fact check that

[humble mulch]

I need you all to fucking read what regal posted

[gentle viper]

Akagi was """scuttled""" by Arashi

its pretty much the same situation as Bismarck

[tribal mortar]

Technically she was

[frigid karma]

Wasn’t kaga also scuttled

[humble mulch]

all 4 midway cvs are the same

[frigid karma]

Even tho she was like

[humble mulch]

they were all scuttled

[tribal mortar]

Oh no kaga sunk

[humble mulch]

they couldnt be saved

[frigid karma]

Gone from the waterline up

[tribal mortar]

Like she bluw up

[strong plank]

Bismarck was overwhelmed and defeated by the gunfire and torpedoes of the Royal Navy, gradually sinking due to uncontrollable progressive flooding.

[delicate beacon]

I didn't say she wasnt. Both can be true.

[gentle viper]

Kaga was sent to hell

she wasnt scuttled

[humble mulch]

https://warbirdsnews.com/warbirds-news/battle-of-midway-ijn-aircraft-carriers-kaga-and-akagi-discovered.html

[delicate beacon]

Tea, may I ask for a reminder on rules regarding trolling

[tribal mortar]

Fucking Paul Allen

[gentle viper]

No carrier can survive 35k~ kilograms of bombs detonating inside your ship

• Avgas

Kaga was sent to hell itself

[frigid karma]

Is it trolling if uh

He might actually be this dented

[tribal mortar]

I do military history as a university degree

[frigid karma]

What, did someone on the hood fuck your grandmother

[humble mulch]

ok and so did I

[tribal mortar]

Oh nice

[humble mulch]

Also qwerty stfu be nice

[tribal mortar]

Where at?

[humble mulch]

also I lied

I dont

[tribal mortar]

Aw that's a shame

[manic latch]

Wasn't that Hiryu

[maiden citrus]

it's just a big pseudo intellectual thing

she got scuttled while already doomed

[humble mulch]

we are talking online, shit doesnt mean much cause no credibility to trust randoms

[strong plank]

yeah like

[manic latch]

I'm sure there is a carrier Japan torped while leaving

[gentle viper]

Ah, like bismarck!

[tribal mortar]

No I like Hood

[humble mulch]

yeah hiryu

[gentle viper]

You know who else was scuttled?

[strong plank]

it's like this

[frigid karma]

The point id like to make is that the British were fully capable of sinking her

[gentle viper]

Hornet.

Bismarck was doomed

[tribal mortar]

I just know Bismarck was scuttled

[frigid karma]

And had the Germans done nothing they certainly would have

[gentle viper]

REALLY Doomed

[maiden citrus]

operation ten go was just an elaborate scuttle

prove me wrong

[gentle viper]

There was no way she was surviving

[frigid karma]

It literally was

[gentle viper]

they just made it quicker

[strong plank]

Bottom line, the scuttling wasn't what killed her

[frigid karma]

Beach yourself on Okinawa and shoot marines

[tribal mortar]

Operation Crossroads was a mass scuttle operation

[gentle viper]

Rodney and the Fleet Air Arm killed her

[tribal mortar]

Hitler didn't kill himself he just got scuttled 🤣

[strong plank]

it just accelerated what was going to happen inevitably

doesn't mean the brits didn't get the kill

[tribal mortar]

But if none of the shells penetrated Bismarck then she pretty much got scuttled

[gentle viper]

getting shot 25 times in the chest but you take your own life with a handgun before the oponent can actually reload

[frigid karma]

It’s more like

[manic latch]

Tbh that will count as suicide still

[strong plank]

my brother in christ I literally linked an academic source explaining how many times she was penetrated

[frigid karma]

He shoved you off a cliff and you shot yourself in the way down

[strong plank]

she was

[humble mulch]

see now

[strong plank]

very much full of holes

[delicate beacon]

Okay guys, question

[humble mulch]

now thats trolling

[frigid karma]

and the more important point is

bismarck

[gentle viper]

So was her superstructure

[frigid karma]

is

a

shit

battleship

[tribal mortar]

My source is the Robert Ballard book where she was reported to have 2 holes

[humble mulch]

Please cease and read/watch each others sources

[gentle viper]

Also Returning to the point, Bismarck is shit.

she was NOWHERE NEAR Fast battleships OR Yamato

[humble mulch]

dont be headasses

I will openly mute you

[tribal mortar]

But what about my Robert Ballard source?

[strong plank]

My source is underwater photography

[gentle viper]

Goddamn, Bismarck cant even take on a king George V

[humble mulch]

yeah like

[manic latch]

Guys I don't think Bismarck is shit. It's just not that efficient but it doesn't make her trash instantly

[humble mulch]

literally look at it

[delicate beacon]

Scuttling is an act of sinking a ship, but was Bismarck in the progress of sinking before or after the scuttling charges were activated?

[tribal mortar]

If he went down to the wreck and said 'Oh I only see 2 holes' then is he a liar?

[frigid karma]

The actual cause of the sinking, however, was sabotage of the underwater valves by the onboard crew, according to Ballard, who said, "we found a hull that appears whole and relatively undamaged by the descent and impact". Film maker Cameron, however, said that his crew's examination of the wreckage indicated that the Bismarck would have sunk eventually even if it had not been scuttled.

[gentle viper]

Compared to her competition yeah

[frigid karma]

this is your source

his own film maker contradicted him

[gentle viper]

I mean, Compare bismarck to the fast battleships or even Treaty Battleships

can she really hold her own against a King George V?

[tribal mortar]

Also I would put sources but my accommodation wifi is shit rn and I have to use mobile data

[gentle viper]

Much less South Dakota or Iowa

KGV

[strong plank]

ooh here we go

[humble mulch]

how old are your sources

[delicate beacon]

Already sinking, so scuttling is technically impossible then?

[tribal mortar]

Mine?

[humble mulch]

yes

[frigid karma]

wehraboos don't really need logic

[tribal mortar]

50s-now

[delicate beacon]

........

[gentle viper]

wehraboos when the allmighty Tiger Ace Wittman is killed by Joe Akins with a random sherman

[strong plank]

2013

[humble mulch]

Ok yeah please cease Now

lmao

[tribal mortar]

eh?

[gentle viper]

I Mean, Lets compare the Efficiency of the Anti Air batteries in North Carolina and Bismarck

[frigid karma]

also these are like

the actual survivor testimonies

[tribal mortar]

Oels gave the order to scuttle the ship yes?

[manic latch]

Bro that's unfair. Compare it to beings like Richel or Littorio

[frigid karma]

compared to your wehraboo dumbass making claims contradicted by his own filmmaker

[delicate beacon]

You do realise thats a non-answer?

[delicate beacon]

Can you sink a sinking ship?

[tribal mortar]

James Cameron never did the film with Ballard

[gentle viper]

Littorio is ages better than bismarck lmfao

[frigid karma]

if you cope hard enough

[gentle viper]

its not really a fair comparison

[frigid karma]

sodak is another league

same as nc

[tribal mortar]

It was national geographic that did Ballard's film

[manic latch]

Ngl I agree on that one

[frigid karma]

anyways enough of the 'she scuttled herself' 'no she didn't bs because it's clear you are trying to drag this down into a semantics shitfest

[gentle viper]

So what, we compare her with Treaty Battleships?

[tribal mortar]

Ballard was the 1990's and James Cameron was like 2004 so big date difference

[delicate beacon]

Littorio is a pretty damn good Battleship.

[gentle viper]

LETS TALK ABOUT PRINCE OF WHALES THEN

[frigid karma]

lemme show u some pen charts

[strong plank]

again, the scuttling charges were used but they were not solely responsible for her fate. They merely accelerated it

[tribal mortar]

Yeah

[manic latch]

Yep

[tribal mortar]

I know that

[gentle viper]

Just how many Betty's and G3M's did Prince of Whales Take down?

[tribal mortar]

No

[gentle viper]

While heavily damaged

[gentle viper]

With subpar crew

and lack of air cover

[tribal mortar]

Is that a dig at me?

[manic latch]

This is trolling

[strong plank]

oh god no drach has rubbed off

[delicate beacon]

What, are you going to talk about the shells now?

[frigid karma]

gangsta

i want you to

compare these two charts

[tribal mortar]

No I'm serious because her guns couldn't aim

[delicate beacon]

Oh my god

[manic latch]

@ivory ridge

[frigid karma]

HAHHA

[delicate beacon]

He is

[frigid karma]

KREMLIN DONT

[gentle viper]

i am answering your statement that bismarck is only second to Iowa

[frigid karma]

UNDIE IS GONNA DOX HIM

[gentle viper]

Treaty Battleships could battle bismarck

[chilly osprey]

Dio

What have I walked into?

[manic latch]

[gentle viper]

Let me remind you that bismarck fought a Deficient, Old, and about to be refitted Battlecruiser and a Treaty Battleship with its main battery not working

[delicate beacon]

@humble mulch can you calm this shit down please, thank you

I will go back to cleaning my research tabs

[strong plank]

"Litt was bad because her guns couldn't aim" my brother in christ Bismarck deleted her own FCS in her first engagement

[humble mulch]

@tribal mortar Please refrain from trolling in #history. This is a verbal warning

[tribal mortar]

and destroyed said battlecruiser with 5 salvos yes?

[frigid karma]

got

[shrewd pecan]

this is quite the rollercoaster of a discussion jesus christ

[tribal mortar]

I'm not trolling

Littorio guns had poor shells that resulted in her guns having poor aim

[gentle viper]

That is called a Lucky shot, Congratulations, you sunk a 20+ years old BATTLECRUISER with your brand new battleship!

[manic latch]

NOOOOO

[strong plank]

if sinking one ship makes Bismarck famous then god Washington should be a fucking legend

[tribal mortar]

If you see that fact as trolling then...idk

[gentle viper]

Washington deserves to get famous

there is a difference between a singular lucky shot

[humble mulch]

"facts"

put a source

[ivory ridge]

No wonder he's so focused on drac

[gentle viper]

and an entire career of sharpshooting

[subtle prawn]

It all started with him claiming that “Bismarck was second to none besides Iowa”…

[tribal mortar]

ok

[humble mulch]

and dont put your own video

or drachs

[delicate beacon]

Drach is a bad influence

[strong plank]

isn't the whole "littorio bad aim" thing a line that drach parrots around

[humble mulch]

yes

[gentle viper]

some of his vids are pretty funny to watch tho

his Plan Z Vid is a nice one!

But Anyway

[chilly osprey]

I mean, you can hold it against him that he believes that. It's still the orthodox take because the information that overturns the bad shell discussion is pretty recent. Plenty of people are unaware of it.

[ivory ridge]

Drach videos and their consequences have been a disaster for the human race

[frigid karma]

no

[tribal mortar]

Who’s Drach??

[chilly osprey]

But, yes, the 'bad shells' thing is more bad history than anything else

[frigid karma]

you are just parroting consistently poor historians

that are biased against italians in ww2

[shrewd pecan]

man I stopped taking drach seriously after his entire alt history video on Hood surviving ended with Hood partaking in the falklands campaign somehow

[frigid karma]

fucking

[tribal mortar]

My source for littorios guns being bad is the ships of war magazine issue 24

[frigid karma]

drach

[humble mulch]

yeah

thats trolling

lmao

[ivory ridge]

wtf is war magazine

[frigid karma]

https://tenor.com/view/madagscar-penguins-kaboom-gif-9833865

[tribal mortar]

No ships of war magazine

[gentle viper]

@tribal mortar if Bismarck is good because she sunk a 20 year old battlecruiser within 5 salvos, then what the fuck is Washington?

a Demigod?

[frigid karma]

or should we send him some sources showing how he's been shoving the hottest BS up his ass?

[tribal mortar]

It's a magazine that looks at ships...of war

[strong plank]

is richy on? I feel like he'd have some details on littorio's gunnery

[delicate beacon]

Drachinifel is a YouTuber that does introduction level videos on naval history. It's usually very poorly sourced and biased but he's the most popular around.

[strong plank]

or the shells at least

[frigid karma]

undie is probably pulling up something as we speak

[chilly osprey]

I can handle the Littorio gun question, just let me get to my PC

[frigid karma]

[shrewd pecan]

god lemme find his hood video

[spiral cedar]

[gentle viper]

Seriously

[frigid karma]

well

[delicate beacon]

That sounds like a secondary source almost as bad as that Java with turrets.

[frigid karma]

considering

[tribal mortar]

Oh him.

I’ve subscribed to him

[gentle viper]

i know its unfair to compare bismarck to the Fast battleships

[frigid karma]

i can't even find ships of war magazine online

[humble mulch]

same

[frigid karma]

your source seems to be BS

provide a link

[gentle viper]

But even then

[tribal mortar]

You want me to give you a link?

[frigid karma]

hewwo jaba

hope you dont mind me yoinking some of your textwalls

[gentle viper]

Washington did it at a greater distance, with a better overall precision, and in nightfighting

AGAINST THE JAPANESE

[tribal mortar]

There

[delicate beacon]

Something that goes down to primary sources please.

[frigid karma]

BAHAHHAHAHAH

[chilly osprey]

Lmao

[ivory ridge]

so it's actually that

[gentle viper]

and more than ONE Ship

[ivory ridge]

you're using a magazine

[frigid karma]

HJAAHAHAHHAHA

KLWABLWGKAHJL

[ivory ridge]

released with models

as a source

[humble mulch]

omfg

[chilly osprey]

Ok, that is quite bad, casting quality had nothing to do with their dispersion

[frigid karma]

https://tenor.com/view/loop-infinite-gif-14889372

gentlemen

this is the best comedy i've seen in forever

this man is a walking quora post

[spiral cedar]

Okay, can we get everyone to shut up for a few minutes while the people with copies of Bagnasco can actually type something

[tribal mortar]

Thanks for the compliment

[strong plank]

oh lord believe me, that wasn't a compliment

[frigid karma]

chat

[spiral cedar]

[frigid karma]

he doesn't know

[humble mulch]

yeah everyone let Jaba, phoenix and others type their stuff up

[tribal mortar]

I know 😊

[gentle viper]

WE WILL NOT TALK ABOUT HAVOCK????

AH YES

HORRIBLE DISPERSION

Okay sorry.

[chilly osprey]

So, as things stand - the 381/50 M1934 did not have dispersion issues relating to the gun itself, and most of the time it was a very accurate weapon system.

However, during early 1941, Vittorio Veneto - one of two ships at the time that mounted that model of gun - did have excessive dispersion, about double what was normal - for reasons that are not entirely clear. Likely it had to do with a poor quality propellant powder load, since that is the most likely to have an impact on dispersion of any one cause. Slight variations in shell weight actually don't have much of an impact on dispersion, despite that being given as a popular reason for why Italian guns had dispersion issues in the war.

Pretty much every other case these guns were used in action, no notable issues with dispersion were noted. In fact, at two of these actions, the ships were able to rapidly straddle their targets with just a few salvos and inflict splinter damage, despite the range being extreme (32,000 meters) and the targets being very small (cruisers and destroyers).

[gentle viper]

i remember reading that Littorio Did some really serious damage to 2 Destroyers in '42

[chilly osprey]

As far as shell quality in general;

It has long been a part of the historiography of the RM in WWII that Italian guns had poor dispersion because of shell quality control being lax, but this is not really the case. This narrative was heavily influence by the writing of a handful of very influential people (namely, Admiral Iachino, in his efforts to defend his conduct during the war), but is not really reflected by primary sources from the era. It is true that the RM did allow looser tolerances on shell manufacture in the 1930s - but this was only a tolerance of 0.4 to 0.5%, not the 1% commonly cited, and this practice was ended in 1937, so it's not even clear that much if any 381/50 shell production might have suffered from it.

In any case, the investigations the RM did into dispersion issues with various guns in the late 1930s and up to 1940 covered a wide varity of potential causes, and shell quality was demonstrably not the cause for dispersion, but rather other reasons, which varied depending on the gun system (but were mainly confined to the 320/44, 203/50 & 53, 152/53, and 120/50).

[cinder escarp]

CAST GUN BARRELS

I don't even

[chilly osprey]

This is a bit of a hard one to pin down. The Second Battle of Sirte was a very confused affair with horrible weather conditions and heavy use of smokescreens by the British - which blinded themselves as much as the Italians (none of their ships in the action had radar fire control). Italian ships very often were firing only at flashes of gunfire in the smoke and spray, and could only occasionally observe enemy ships, or their own shell splashes, to make corrections. They were also forced to frequently change target rather than focus on any one ship

As a result, the origins of many hits are somewhat disputed. Ex, while it is generally agreed that HMS Cleopatra was struck by a 152mm shell, it is debated whether it came from Giovanni delle Bande Nere, or if it came from Littorio's secondary battery. Likewise, the hit on HMS Kingston may have come from Littorio or Gorizia, or even Trento.

That said, the 'hit' on Havock is generally agreed to have come from Littorio's main guns, though it was not so much a clean hit as it was a close straddle, though it was close enough to cause quite heavy damage, with splinters penetrating all three boiler rooms and the engine room.

[spiral cedar]

Phoenix and Unde can probably take the lead on this one since they read up on the topic before I did, so I can instead provide some comparisons in the context of other navies to put the Littorio dispersion controversy into a bit of wider context.

The English language historiography of the Mediterranean theater of WWII has been largely dominated by British sources—perhaps not too surprising, but nevertheless they don’t have access to most of half the story. More recently, Italian historians have put work into reexamining past narratives and have become more successful in getting their new findings out to English-language publications. Bagnasco and Toro in particular have a well-regarded book series about various ship classes in the Regia Marina, with other sources (e.g. publications in Storia Militare, works by Santarini, etc.) likewise weighing in on the discussion with their own research. So relying on the old narratives really is not appropriate now that better information (especially in English) is available.

As the most modern capital ships Italy had, the Littorios always had significant attention directed at them—but the historiography has been largely out of date for quite some time, so a lot of “everyone knows X” attitudes still abound about various aspects. In this regard, their gunnery is a particularly mythologized aspect. But when you actually look at the gunnery practices done at sea, over the course of years, with various shell types and across multiple ships, you find that the 381mm guns were…actually only a bit below average in terms of dispersion. Yes, there are contemporary capital ships with lesser dispersion, but it’s far from some crippling flaw that renders the class impotent. There is really one action by one ship that had become the stereotype example for the entire class, which due to the narrowness of the English language historiography up until recently has become the dominant narrative of the class in its entirety (which is especially amusing when there were in fact other RM guns that did have persistent and severe dispersion issues, making the 381mm guns far from the worst of the bunch, despite the focus placed onto them).

Per Phoenix:

Bagnasco & de Toro actually give the 50% zone as 200 meters from 18-20 km, in their book on the Littorio-class.

(I have the book as well and can confirm)

[manic latch]

Soyuz also suffered from propellant quality. (Apple does not fall far from the tree)
But I agree with Phoenix. Problem of Veneto was %90 likely from Prop as well

[spiral cedar]

For reference, a 200m 50% zone at 19km (splitting the difference) corresponds to a true mean dispersion of 0.62% of range, or a 9-gun pattern size of about 473m (2.49% of range).

For comparison, the German 38cm gun was rated for an inherent 108m 50% zone at 19km, and a 157m 50% zone at 19km for the main battery at sea (taking into account the usual issues of gunnery at sea), for a TMD of 0.49% of range. This would correspond to a theoretical 9-gun pattern size of 371m (1.95% of range).

The US 14" exhibited an empirical 0.55% TMD in the interwar period (presumably after delay coils), for a 50% zone of 177m at 19km and a theoretical 9-gun pattern size of 417m (2.20% of range).

The US 16" had an empirical 0.40% TMD during WWII for AP, and 0.60% TMD for HC. This comes out to a 50% zone of 129m at 19km and a 9-gun pattern size of 305m (1.60% of range) for AP. For HC, this is a 50% zone of 193m and a 9-gun pattern size of 456m (2.40% of range).

In 1942-1944, the British 14" had an empirical mean 212yd 50% zone at 18.3kyd, which extrapolates to 220m 50% zone at 19km. A subset of this data set (only shoots at 20-24kyd) gives a lower (and probably more accurate) value of 197m 50% zone at 19km, for a TMD of 0.61% of range and a theoretical 9-gun pattern size of 461m (2.43% of range).

(Don't focus too much on second decimal places and ones place meters; they're just there for some transparency on numbers used)

[chilly osprey]

Jaba to the rescue with empirical data

I will note, a lot of the bad historiography on shell quality does originate with Italian sources (as mentioned above, Iachino being a major culprit, especially as Fioravanzo quoted from him a lot of the official histories), though this is what informed a lot of the early English writing on the RM in WWII.

But the research that has started to overturn much of this only really started getting published in Italian in the 1990s, and in English... in the last ten years only.

[spiral cedar]

Yeah, I don’t necessarily fault the English writers for trusting the Italians early on—translation work is expensive and actually a major hurdle for researchers, so primary source investigation before machine translations was quite difficult (Parshall has a good talk about this)

[chilly osprey]

Absolutely. And they had no reason to doubt Iachino, since plenty of other Italian authors relied on what he said

I have some of Bagnasco's earlier stuff in Italian from the 1970s, and he repeats the same line about shell quality and dispersion as everyone else did back then.

[spiral cedar]

But it’s easy for a specific historical narrative to “crystalize” around what was really a tentative or speculative conclusion at the time, and through repetition become practically unchallenged

[delicate beacon]

Mood.

[remote monolith]

see, the problem with WWII historiography is that in general, for the last decades or so public knowledge about it has been, to put it mildly, pretty stagnated, relying on older sources that sometimes originated from pre-Cold War end and less than reputable books with presentable looks that the public can easily chew. It's only around the 2010s that there's been major turnarounds of established knowledges about the entire event, helped by the internet bringing these new research into light faster than ever before

[frigid karma]

the internet also helped create some..other communities, though

[gentle viper]

i love the internet for what it is but god i hate it for the Tankies, Wehrbs, and Teaboos

[strong plank]

the voices

[manic latch]

Where freedomaboo

Oh wait

[strong plank]

ok maybe it's me but like

[gentle viper]

i forgot about it

[spiral cedar]

For comparison, at the max range of her guns, Yamato’s TMD is similar to the US 16” guns firing AP (~0.4% of range), so if we take that as an approximation of her TMD at medium range (which is not strictly true, and likely a slight underestimate, given German data), she’d have similar pattern sizes and dispersion characteristics at the given range as the US 16” AP

[strong plank]

I've yet to run into a teeaboo who's as bad as the others

[gentle viper]

lmao

i was too busy thinking of the term for the brits

Yeah Freaboos, Pastaboos, Tojoboos, all that shit

@manic latch Happy now?

[manic latch]

No ouiaboo

[delicate beacon]

Or Ikeaboo

[gentle viper]

what the fuck is a uiaboo

french?

[chilly osprey]

I'd also note that for the english, a lot of what they heard about dispersion probably was confirmation bias for them, because they themselves had observes the Italians straddle quickly (good fire control), but then seem to have more dispersed salvoes, especially in actions when targets started maneuvering.

The latter definitely makes sense, because this was actually related to what the Italians identified for their own fire control as contributing to dispersion - older ships (like the heavy cruisers) had FTP systems that were not as 'tight' or responsive as later ones, and struggled to give the necessary corrections to train and elevation orders fast enough and accurately enough to account for own-ship maneuvers. This caused increased dispersion.

Likewise, when looking at the former part of the issue, the British probably did not understand Italian salvo practice, which often had guns aim in offset manners to help check range and azimuth accuracy at the same time. What was actually two seperate salvoes may have at times been interpreted as one very widely spread salvo by the British.

In comparsion, the Italians tended to fire British gunnery producing very tight salvoes, if usually not very accurately aimed ones.

[manic latch]

French

Ye

[delicate beacon]

🥖 oui

[gentle viper]

should we ping the guy considering the people with the real info have finished their testaments?

[manic latch]

Doubt Gangsta read them anyway

[delicate beacon]

EN

[manic latch]

Tho now I have copy pastes to use when someone brings up Italian shell quality

[humble mulch]

Quick Reference Links:

What books do y'all suggest I read to get to know warships: #history message

Littioro Gun Dispersion: #history message

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/mussolini-serious-who-cares-gif-5388395

[humble mulch]

its hard to pin convos dont mind me

[gentle viper]

talking about Alt history, how possible was for Yamato to take down one of the Fast battleships at Ten-Go? assuming no Air raid of course.

[humble mulch]

if theres anything else yall want me to add to that or pin in general let me know

[manic latch]

Man vs battles varies on lot of things. It's %60 about luck for me

Who see who first who fire first who hit first who survive the hit how etc

[strong plank]

yeah it depends on a good deal

[chilly osprey]

iirc with Ten-Go she was actually going to be intercepted by a whole line of Standards

[humble mulch]

I feel she could at most, fuck someone up

[strong plank]

who sees who first, fleet composition, etc

[frigid karma]

i feel like you should've pinged the guy you wrote this for

[shrewd pecan]

or just start a new conversation instead of beating a dead horse

[manic latch]

Realized something ironic

Vasa sink after launch because of her freeboard height with top weight right

[remote monolith]

beating a dead horse, horse kicks back

[spiral cedar]

Not very likely—given how badly she's outnumbered, Lanchester's Square Law suggests she would be very rapidly rendered impotent

A 6 v 1 battle doesn't mean each side loses 1 on average, in naval warfare

It's more like a 36:1 ratio of damage taken to inflicted

Which is why navies are very careful to not commit to a fight when they think they are at a disadvantage

Generally speaking

(This is for turreted gun ships, not applicable to carriers, missile ships, or ships of the line)

[spiral cedar]

Yeah probably
@tribal mortar

[frigid karma]

What were the two non iowa BBs?

[ivory ridge]

USS Massachusetts, Indiana, New Jersey, South Dakota, Wisconsin, and Missouri

Im pretty sure all 4 Iowas were never together during the war

and iirc there is a single photo where they are, and it's post war

but i could be misremembering

[maiden citrus]

that is correct

[ivory ridge]

Yep, 1954

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knpKQrpKomQ

[tribal mortar]

If this was 1944, it would’ve been a sight

[strong plank]

oh shit yeah, June 7

[eternal veldt]

Why does all the fun shit happen when I'm busy?

[ivory ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-gif-23910228

[frigid karma]

You don’t find teaching fun?

Ridiculous

You ought to be devastated when not engaging in the education of the brilliant next generation

[inland thicket]

I’d throw it to not that likely. Without advance radar like the USN, the Yamato likely can’t exploit her range potential

[eternal veldt]

If you enjoy beating a dead horse over and over again, sure

But I guess that applies to Bismarck bashing too

[remote monolith]

Bismarck dead horse is fun

sometime it suddenly kicks back

and we beat it twice as hard

[eternal veldt]

On the Littorio issue, remember, just need to look at two photos of Matapan without proper timestamping (or positioning) , and quickly reach the conclusion that the salvos are more than 1km apart - A certain historian

It's a shame that Bagnasco passed away this year.

[eternal veldt]

Not standards - All of the BBs involved are fast battleships of the US Navy, plus the 2CBs and a whopping 21 destroyers in tow.

That is before accounting for the 3 carriers of the force, Yorktown, Enterprise, and Intrepid, which was hauling ass to get within range and would be in combat if the 8 carriers magically didn't prevail against Ito's force.

[eternal veldt]

The ship was unstable

A strong gust of wind pitched the ship, water goes into the gunports, dead ship

[kindred reef]

did the japs have any gull wing shaped aircraft in ww2? i swear i remember seeing one a long time ago but i cant seem to find it online?

[tough quail]

B7As, A7Ms kinda sorta iirc

[kindred reef]

thanks i knew i had seen it but just forgot what it was called

[alpine onyx]

The moment Bismarck gets mentioned in this channel it turns into a weird mess of an argument

[heavy bay]

I don't get the controversy. Bismarck wasn't a super great armored cruiser, but she was Germany's first attempt at building one, so some missteps are understandable.

[eternal veldt]

Inb4 reject Bismarck, embrace Scharnhorst kai

"Super Great Armoured cruiser"???

[alpine onyx]

I hear kai?

Tho realistically speaking, for the weird requirements given Bismarck's design was to be expected, drop in a KGV or a Littorio and it'd be a "topic missed, f-grade"

[maiden citrus]

bismarck does have wonderful immune zones against the old 15'' guns, so props to that

[alpine onyx]

"Resist your own shellfire at 15km"
"But our tables say that'd require like half a meter of belt?"
"Sounds like a you-problem"

[maiden citrus]

then you better start making belt

[frigid karma]

make belt or get the belt

[alpine onyx]

If my memory is correct the Germans straight up dismissed cemented armor slaps thicker than 380mm, and deemed 320mm to be the sweet spot for protection vs thickness

[frigid karma]

wooooooo you believe in the 14 inch belt scharnhorst woooooooo

[alpine onyx]

[spiral cedar]

The Mk 27 Mod 0 radar installed in turret 3 as experimental installation performed well. Neither the antenna or set was affected by gunfire. Using precision, targets were tracked in with antennas set in deflection, as indicated by Plot on the deflection indicator. Targets were picked up at 36,000 yards. Splashes were spotted at the firing range with no difficulty, splashes being one fourth the size of the target pips. Considerable interference was experienced at times on the scope but no indications of jamming. Pips of DD's faded at 20,000 yards. Projectiles which crossed the antenna beam appeared on the scope.

WeeVee had a backup rangefinding radar installed in one of her turrets

I wonder how it was installed

or if maybe Silver has some photo of them

(somehow the backup radar in the turret is still of higher range accuracy than Yamato’s radar)

[maiden citrus]

[spiral cedar]

I do wonder how and where it was fitted

[eternal veldt]

Jaba, right in front and beneath where Turret 3's rangefinder usef tobe

[spiral cedar]

Happen to have/know of any photos?

[eternal veldt]

I do.

[spiral cedar]

Mind circling the exact area(s) for me?

Just to be sure

[spiral cedar]

Interesting, interesting

Happen to know any other ships so fitted off the top of your head?

[eternal veldt]

It is much more visible on California and Tennessee due to close up shots available.

Iowa had a Mark 27 + SG set sitting on top the conning tower.

[spiral cedar]

this right?

[eternal veldt]

Yeap!

[lavish fable]

ngl the Tennessee class of BB's was interesting

[spiral cedar]

indeed

[lavish fable]

new mexico but bigger

[eternal veldt]

I think it's becoming more common as refits started going out left, right and centre.

[lavish fable]

now I want to check WOWs to see if they have that little SG radar on their ships

[eternal veldt]

They do.

[lavish fable]

yay! 😄

[eternal veldt]

Many of WoWS' models are off though, so not recommended as a source.

[lavish fable]

figures

[frigid karma]

wait, the radar is right on the side of the turret?

that's

odd

[eternal veldt]

On both sides, replacing the rangefinder arms.

[alpine onyx]

with that position I don't think blast could affect the dish unless you fire the fourth turret at some extreme angle

[frigid karma]

i mean

if you turned both front turrets to broadside and fired the front gun would proobably fuck them up

[eternal veldt]

No, it wouldn't.

[frigid karma]

[alpine onyx]

those dishes would be shielded by the superstructure

[frigid karma]

maybe i'm just underestimating radar survivability then

[eternal veldt]

The position of the radar dish would rotate being mounted at the widest possible point of the turret.

[alpine onyx]

if you turn the rear turrets to fire as far forward as possible, and then fire the fourth, you might get (un)lucky there

[eternal veldt]

Meaning, if at full broadside, the radar dish is roughly around the middle of the turret.

[frigid karma]

yeah rethinking orientations it makes sense

you would need to have the a turret firing as far as possible to stern

[eternal veldt]

And the turret grouping of 3 and 4 is quite tight.

You're not going to rotate turret 4 much more than turret 3 is going to do, if at all possible.

Granted they are not at the exact position the rangefinders are, but if they did fine at broadside or so, they are probably fine over extreme angles, but I'd agree with some unlucky cases.

[ivory ridge]

man

the more i look into more unconventional wheeled tanks the more i hate cockerill and its fucking 90mm

[frigid karma]

Cute

[ivory ridge]

🅱️elgian

stupid ass name too

"SIBMAS"

[frigid karma]

Simba?

[manic latch]

Burning Italian light cruiser "Bartolomeo Colleoni" during the battle at Cape Spada.
In the battle off Cape Spada, the Italian light cruisers Giovanni delle Bande Nere and Bartolomeo Colleoni fought with a British formation of one light cruiser (Australian Sydney) and five destroyers. The hit of the Sydney shell in the engine room of the Bartolomeo Colleoni led to a powerful explosion and immobilization of the Italian cruiser. The British destroyers Ilex and Hyperion finished off the Italian ship by torpedoing it. 121 crew members of the Bartolomeo Colleoni were killed.

[manic latch]

[valid trout]

iirc wasn't the HMAS Sydney sunk by a disguised merchant ship that was armed and all hands lost on both ships? or was there a few survivors from the disguised ship?

[eternal veldt]

Komoran had survivors.

Sydney was a total loss. A few carley floats bearing her name was washed up Christmas Island later.

[valid trout]

ah ok

[manic latch]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erictegler/2022/11/23/air-force-f-35-lightning-iis-still-cant-fly-within-25-miles-of-lightning/?sh=6c77c951663e

The issue lies within the F-35’s OBIGGS (Onboard Inert Gas Generation) system which pumps nitrogen-enriched air into its fuel tanks to inert them, preventing the aircraft from exploding if it is struck by lightning. Apparently, the tubing and fittings inside the F-35’s fuel tank (which deliver the nitrogen mix) cease to function effectively over time due to the vibrations and possibly swings in temperature and pressure during flight

[manic latch]

How do you fix this issue? Better fuel tank?

Wider tubes?

[eternal veldt]

@spiral cedar Sorry for the hastily assembled reply, but I'm confident that the Mark 27 set was universally applied to all US Fast battleships. I'm also not sure why I said "Mark 27 + SG", when it is clearly just a Mark 27 Antenna.

From top to bottom , SoDak, Wisconsin, Washington. North Carolina from what I observe had a different mounting position, but most of the fast battleships had them mounted over the conning tower behind the periscope or the tower mast structure.

Contrary to my previous statement, Tennessee did not mount a Mark 27 radar on her turret 3, and retained her rangefinder arms on it until the end of her service life. A cursory search shows that California herself did not have Mark 27 radars on her Turret 3 as she came out of Puget Sound in 1944, suggesting that she, too, would not receive Mark 27s if she did not receive a kamikaze hit that necessitated repairs on the West Coast (which also enlarged her spotting top position).

In short, I suspect WeeVee is the first (of the only two standards that I've found) to have received Mark 27 radars - and was successful enough that California also got it when she needed repairs.

as for the issue of gun blast earlier - I know it's extremely hypocritical of me to use WoWS as a reference point, but there seems to be sufficient distance to nullify blast interference even at maximum extreme angle firing.

(Can't say the same for the Mk 24 oerlikons below it - surprisingly, I haven't heard of severe burn injuries or oerlikons getting smashed to pieces from gunnery fire on the US side, even though Richelieu trashed hers accidentally at one point.)

[spring briar]

[eternal veldt]

[spring briar]

That’s what it would feel like getting hit with the blast

[tribal mortar]

Type 1 submersible gun

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1597966076075454468

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1942, USS Minneapolis lost her bow after being torpedoed during the Battle of Tassafaronga. Working with Seabees, the crew camouflaged the ship with palms and then built a temporary bow with coconut logs. The ship made it back to the U.S. where a new bow was added.

Twitter · Nov 30, 2022, 2:49 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrNQ2lAe6go

[tough quail]

thanks m14

[manic latch]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63800674 @spring briar

[spring briar]

[fierce sparrow]

[spiral cedar]

muchos gracias

Kinda curious whether the turret (instead of conning tower) installation happened on the FBBs as well, or if it was just on the slow BBs

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1598008610772389889

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1944, HMS Vanguard was launched. Vanguard was the biggest, fastest and last Royal Navy battleship. After being sold for scrap in 1960, she decided to go for one last pint while on her way to the breakers yard by running aground next to the Still & West pub in Portsmouth.

Twitter · Nov 30, 2022, 5:38 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/SydneyFreedberg/status/1597973315645476864
https://twitter.com/SydneyFreedberg/status/1597973608080416768

Sydney Freedberg (@SydneyFreedberg)

TANKS GIVING: @BAESystemsInc reveals full photos of its new #OMFV design to replace @USArmy's much-upgraded but 1980s-vintage #M2 Bradley. Story coming soon.

Likes

103

Twitter · Nov 30, 2022, 3:18 PM

Sydney Freedberg (@SydneyFreedberg)

More angles on @BAESystemsInc #OMFV:

Twitter · Nov 30, 2022, 3:19 PM

[desert agate]

there was a single confirmed survivor of the loss of HMAS Sydney, Able seaman Thomas Welsby Clark, from New Farm in Brisbane who was identified in 2021
His body washed up on Christmas island 3 months after the ship was lost, as he was not rescued and died at sea during the 3 month period after the sinking

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9hFHmFrvMU

[valid trout]

Ah ok

I’m pretty sure there was a crewman of the HMAS Sydney that wasn’t on board at the time of the sinking

[subtle prawn]

https://breakingdefense.com/2022/11/a-real-life-lego-tank-bae-touts-modular-design-for-army-omfv/

[inland thicket]

I will never forgive the M14

[eternal veldt]

Only on slow BBs as far as I'm aware.

[languid swift]

History being made today boys!

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1598142952379154433

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1942, USS New Orleans was hit by a torpedo and lost her entire bow during the Battle of Tassafaronga. The crew made quick repairs with coconut logs and then sailed the cruiser in reverse for 1,800 miles to reach Sydney, Australia.

Twitter · Dec 1, 2022, 2:32 AM

[eager dove]

I’ll be happy when they finally put the damn thing in the water instead of posting a million pictures teasing it at every possibly opportunity

[chilly osprey]

I'm just bemused that, much like the pace of construction was glacial, it is also taking them ages for them to 'launch' the ship into water.

It's almost poetic.

[valid trout]

How long did it take sailing in reverse for 1800 miles;-;

[chilly osprey]

12 days

[eternal veldt]

Considering the average cruise speed of a ship, probably not that longer too

Fuel consumption levels die when you hit high speeds and is usually reserved for combat, but I guess if you need to haul ass like Indianapolis in delivering the nukes, you can go turbo mode

[junior trench]

how many ABs have been launched it the time it took to assemble Glasgow again?

[maiden citrus]

yeah, ships sail below 20 knots 95% of the time

[junior trench]

nvm

found it

it's 5

[maiden citrus]

even including combat

[junior trench]

there's been 5 Burkes launched launched and 6 commissioned (lots of overlap) in the time it's taken to launch Glasgow

[eternal veldt]

Is this just 21 knot battle line propaganda maka, smh

[maiden citrus]

nope, jaba even pointed it out once too

[junior trench]

RN cruise speed of 10 knots

very sad

[maiden citrus]

average speed in guadalcanal was 19something knots, combat accounted for

[junior trench]

very slow

[eternal veldt]

Yea, it makes sense. Unless shit hits the fan, no need to kill your fuel.

And then there's Samuel B Roberts doing 26 knots on a ship rated for 23 when shit hit the fan.

[junior trench]

28.7

designed for 24

[eternal veldt]

Ah. Mixed up the numbers.

[junior trench]

using every bit of the pressure margin the USN liked to keep

[eternal veldt]

And then there's the French

[junior trench]

which iirc is listed power + 10%

[eternal veldt]

Max speed of 43 knots, combat speed of 28/32 because vibe

[frigid karma]

43 is for ramming speeds

[maiden citrus]

speedus deletus

[tepid mulch]

Decided to read on US foreign relations just because

Didn't know Oregon was used by New Englanders as a stopping point for the China trade

[junior trench]

funny Oregon fact

Oregon was founded as a free/non-slavery state because the settlers were just that fucking racist

[tepid mulch]

Nice

Back to reading the book

[solid mango]

wat is dis abomination i have found

[valid trout]

[vivid sierra]

[solid mango]

Its british makes sense

[vivid sierra]

fair enough i guess

[crystal crystal]

Submarine I assume, but Hoch is still just worse

[valid trout]

that is a massive superstructure for a ship of that size

[shrewd pecan]

I mean I get it the brits take forever to build shit

but like its either take forever

or have the yards close because they aren't producing anything

[valid trout]

before ww1 it would have taken the US to build 1 ship the Brits built 5

[spring briar]

La gal: design speed of 31, trails 35

For all of them

[strong plank]

even before ww1 the US was trying to establish itself as a naval power

see: Teddy Roosevelt and the Great White Fleet

[spring briar]

Yes

They tried

[strong plank]

yeah trying's the key word

[spring briar]

But it took a little longer to get there

Forbin

[strong plank]

tfw CERP gets frozen a week out from the B-21 reveal

in all likelihood it's probably a repeat of the whole F35-production-freeze where they found a component was manufactured in china or something

but the timing's kinda hilarious

[maiden citrus]

eh it was more like 2 ships to 3 at worst

and then in retrospect you look at the cut corners

[junior trench]

wonder how quick the RN would have rotted without Fisher slowing things down

for a while

reintroducing a more professional culture

[maiden citrus]

hm, ironic as he was anything but

[junior trench]

considering the state of the RN when he first arrived on the scene?

[maiden citrus]

rn culture isn't an area I really know much about being honest

I just know fisher was as much a jerk as a weirdo

[junior trench]

think good ol' boys club with social circles decided since primary school with an assumed air of eternal superiority

now turn it up to 11

that's what Fisher had to weed out, which was especially important as shipbuilding advances were essentially forcing a reset on naval primacy

you'd have to be a crazy to survive and uproot that

and it didn't even totally work

[maiden citrus]

I suppose that's easy to imagine yeah, would fit the caricture

[spring briar]

Enough jabbing about the RN

Idaho declares hotdog day for all eternity

[maiden citrus]

based

https://www.shockmodel.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/HB-86504-FRENCH-NAVY-PRE-DREADNOUGHT-BATTLESHIP-HOBBY-BOSS-2.jpg

[spring briar]

[eternal veldt]

HMS Captain's affair is just a shitshow for the mid 19th century RN

[manic latch]

31

[tribal mortar]

Idawho??

[spring briar]

[remote monolith]

wake the fuck up, new Spinosaurus paper that invalidates the previous research that invalidated the research before it is out https://elifesciences.org/articles/80092

[spring briar]

Not again!

[tepid mulch]

Makeupyourgoddamnmindonthespinosaurussaurus

[somber knoll]

https://tenor.com/view/first-time-meme-first-time-the-ballad-of-buster-scruggs-gif-24656975

[humble mulch]

Lmao

Now this is a clap back

[manic latch]

Question. Did this happen because plane didn't had electricity? So did it try to close it by itself or the momentum caused it?

[remote monolith]

next year's research paper: actually Spinosaurus IS an Aquatic Dinosaur

[humble mulch]

I think the momentum caused it to just fold back up?

Cause it looks pretty bouncey and whatever is towing it just keeps going

Also yeah I feel dinos will be like this for a good while, feathers as a much broader example of how research and development goes with them

[remote monolith]

Spinosaurus research in particular is even more fucked up than your usual dino research

since 2014 its general shape, diet, size, weight, lifestyle and habitat changed every other year or so

[delicate beacon]

I wonder how future biologists react to the platypus

[hushed saffron]

At this point I wouldn't even bat an eye at spinosaurus being revealed to have fucking laser beam eyes.

[frigid karma]

what if they don't have eyes

they hunt exclusively with echolocation and the holes in their skulls are actually additional mouths

[unborn wyvern]

Jack-O-Pose F-35

[unborn wyvern]

MiG-31s are cool af I love it in AC7

[humble mulch]

[frigid karma]

malta's new flagship looks baller as FUCK

Look at that subtle off-white coloring. The tasteful thickness of it. Oh, my God. It even has helicopter facilities and an open-air hallway

[strong plank]

the cutouts for speeeeed

[frigid karma]

convenient railings for bipoded MMGs to be mounted on if any somali pirates try some shit

[manic latch]

Awww she is like smol project 20380

[frigid karma]

is this from the 2022 or 2021 edition of osprey warships

[spiral cedar]

Got it from @heavy bay

[manic latch]

Wait I'm missing the context here

Which Project was this?

Jaba: Enters
Post screenshot of a info about a Soviet ship without saying which one it is
Leaves

[tough quail]

Project 3 presumably

[spring briar]

What is Project 1

[tough quail]

Leningrad

[manic latch]

Fugas Class minesweeper?

Hmk

Yeah they did had such faults

Holy shit I forgot some of them used lend lease 20mm Oerlikons

[tough quail]

Based

[frigid karma]

first of all he got it from someone else

as he stated

he doesn't have the original source

and secondly the name of the project is also in the text

so

[manic latch]

So what's the context tho

[tough quail]

you're also late

[manic latch]

I don't get that

[frigid karma]

by an astounding 2 minutes

stop being an ass

[manic latch]

Ironic

[tough quail]

tru

[manic latch]

Did someone asked Jaba about Project 3 I wonder

[frigid karma]

well kremlin

it took me about 5 seconds googling the first line of the picture and i got this

https://books.google.com/books?id=AHv_CwAAQBAJ&pg=PA102&lpg=PA102&dq="the+most+significant+problem+discovered+during+trials+focused"&source=bl&ots=bvV_zFg8sH&sig=ACfU3U0OsbqHHX9yJi51Fb0CgEMxcmGe2A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiUlJz2jtn7AhUXGDQIHSITDVEQ6AF6BAgKEAM#v=onepage&q="the most significant problem discovered during trials focused"&f=false

[manic latch]

No no I get that

Just wondering why Jaba shared this randomly

[frigid karma]

i mean if you want context

just like

google it

[manic latch]

?

[spiral cedar]

I share interesting stuff all the time

Nothing more than that

[frigid karma]

well you see kremlin

this is a history channel

with

history about warships in it

[manic latch]

I'm just fascinated then Jaba. It's the first time I actually saw someone speak of Project 3

[frigid karma]

hence jaba can share stuff about it

even if it's stuff criticizing glorious soviet navy

[manic latch]

Qwerty I'm speaking with Jaba

Dont speak for him

[frigid karma]

I never was tho

?

[delicate beacon]

funiculi funicula

[subtle prawn]

https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2022/december/memoriam-john-prados-1951-2022

[manic latch]

@tough quail Smash or Pass?

[frigid karma]

Too bland

[manic latch]

[tough quail]

it looks like its from an 80s cartoon i enjoy

[frigid karma]

And no tail

Tu95 is superior for smashing

[manic latch]

I assume Aircraft 125 will be more of your liking

[tough quail]

well yeah

[manic latch]

Or this layout

[frigid karma]

That image looks weird when I’m not zoomed in

I prefer su-34 tho, because it has experience smashing random civilians

[manic latch]

To think this is the same guy that got angry to me for joking about disappearance of a sea diving agent because "someone died"

[frigid karma]

Yes

I have double standards

Dwi

[maiden citrus]

I like this one

[manic latch]

Meanwhile a concept of M-50

[maiden citrus]

now that is plen

[valid trout]

is the back of the M-50 supposed to be so low?

[manic latch]

Looking at result. Seems so

[manic latch]

It also created this concept

Since back was so low it already gave the angle for launch

You can also use boats

And trains

Or planes

[valid trout]

ah ok

thats alot of vehicles that the M-50 canlaunch from

[manic latch]

You can also use bigger plane if you want more range of course

[valid trout]

welp

Soviet designs are crazy sometimes

[manic latch]

Oh for sure. Gaz-16 for example

[valid trout]

and the ekranoplan

ekranoplane*

[manic latch]

This girl is more complex than Ekro if you ask me

[valid trout]

and was it the USSR that wanted to build a flying aircraft carrier that hovers or Was that the USA

[manic latch]

Soviet T-500

[valid trout]

Yep its USSR gone crazy

[valid trout]

ahhh yes

[manic latch]

America wanted a gigantic transport as Pelican

[valid trout]

the Mustard videos on USSR machines

[manic latch]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Pelican

Needs to make this one

[valid trout]

the USA also had a concept of turning a 747 into a flying aircraft carrier

[manic latch]

Yeah that one is more famous

[manic latch]

And Soviets tried it long ago anyway

Parasite fighters some reason don't really work. Only good on paper

[valid trout]

they seem a good idea on paper, not so good when you actually test it

[valid trout]

i remember the name for this finally, the VVA-14

[manic latch]

There is also Project 748

Submarine landing ship

[valid trout]

oh god