#2025 H2 General Discussion

3048 messages · Page 4 of 4 (latest)

past cobalt
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😐

icy cloak
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You know I find ALs significantly harder to deal and less fun than statuses but still have to deal with them. One tool to help deal with them is status effects.

If we are going to get rid of statuses in PvP, we should also get rid of ALs. I find Olympic Athletes playing with Kindergarteners unfun and they force me to build specific ways to try and punch up. It restricts my creativity and limits my build options as I’m forced to use every equipment slot to try and beat someone higher AL than me mighty_mimic (assuming they are on the same ward build as everyone else) mighty_mimic

Now, PvP aside,

Finding uses for moves like Dragon’s Breath (t5) and weapons like Gorgon’s Staff (t8) to try different things is also something I find quite fun in PvE. I understand losing a turn to statuses sucks but Gorgon’s Eyes give Crit and status resistance and you won’t be dealing with the assassin spec in PvE

However, I recognize that this is still a frustration for some and it is okay to have differing opinions in regard to status effects. In the same way that others may find ALs and defeating the competition fun and engaging, people like me also find status effects fun and engaging.

I’d encourage whatever the status conversation evolves into to keep both of these points of view and any others that may come up in mind.

granite robin
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But sure i think status effect skills should have lower proc rate in general so status res would have chance vs darts for examble

still sky
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But your status effect build could actually be more effective if it wasn't also a summoner build on a Valhallan class...

granite robin
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Summoner build?

granite robin
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I feel very offended right now

icy cloak
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Might be best to take a step back then - you and I enjoy status effects, Goody Phil and some others don’t - that is okay.

azure python
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Hey guys, let's try and not get into back and forths and focus on tested realities, and productive solutions to problem areas.
If someone feels differently to us, we never need to make them feel small or get too stuck into arguing

I'm going to slow this thread down a bit as we want it easily parsable for Odie

past cobalt
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The tested reality is that a build fully geared into status resistance on a sf2 class does not come close to countering statuses with a high application rate, such as sleep dart, sands of aaru, miasma, possibly even forbid/temper at 50% baseline.

Not only is a status resistance build ineffective at countering actual threats (only low application rate debuffs), it is ineffective against all other builds, meaning it is useless.

This only leaves immunities as a way of actually countering status builds; and immunity gear is class-restricted and often prevents builds from functioning. This is less of a problem for classes like Beo and Deity who can equip everything in the game and have a plethora of functional builds and strategies; this is more of a problem for classes without steadfast or with more limited gear selection/build diversity.

mortal pawn
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I actually disagree that anything needs to be tested here.

Pvp:
Statuses are a way for lower strength players to compete with upper. It is more time consuming to use this approach for the low strength attacker, and isnt even guaranteed given all the immunity gear available. The defender doesnt have to do anything in AI pvp. The upper strength defender can choose to bring immunities or resist, or choose not to.

PvE:
Statuses force tradeoffs in builds for non steadfast classes. Ive played mostly non steadfast classes because I enjoy the challenge involved in optimizing gear for fights and remembering what to bring per mob.

Nerfing statuses just makes fights trend to more one dimensional. I don't like that, and don't think it improves the game. No testing required.

I think it is a grave mistake to nerf statuses for all aspects of the game (except stasis)

royal jacinth
# past cobalt The tested reality is that a build fully geared into status resistance on a sf2 ...

Not sure what your target class for that feedback is though?

this is more of a problem for classes without steadfast or with more limited gear selection/build diversity.

Classes without steadfast leaves us with Realmshifter Summoner and Beowulf

This is less of a problem for classes like Beo and Deity who can equip everything in the game and have a plethora of functional builds and strategies

So that leaves Realmshifter and Summoner. Though summoner has anywhere between two and five extra bodies to tank the debuffs and deal damage if the summoner itself is stunlocked.

So it's just Realmshifter?

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But realmshifter's whole deal is immunity gear. Because the status problem on realmshifters isn't new, they've been dealing with it for nearly six years now. Redlining requires immunity to damage, and mystic feather requires immunity to turn skip effects (since most disable dodging)

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Regarding status resistance, it won't save you against people building for it in pvp, but it saves you against pve for the most part. Of the spells you mentioned, sands of aaru and temper aren't used by enemies, sleep dart's application rate gets cut from 75% to 25% (meaning you get affected once per four attempts), and miasma gets cut from 90% to 40%, meaning you get blighted a little less than half the time (with a debuff that makes you lose turns only a quarter of the time, not nearly as backbreaking as sleeping), and forbid has a whopping 50% application rate (which if I am not mistaken gets lowered to 3%)

past cobalt
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I will clarify that when I am speaking about countering status builds, I am talking about defending against it in non-live pvp. The way to counter an assassin build if I'm going first is to simply kill them, that's not part of the discussion.

Status builds are not only useful when facing a higher AL opponent, as they can act as a bypass or cheese against evenly matched opponents. Why risk the oneshot meta of second chances and parapet when I can sleep dart them (or para/stun/freeze/blind/blight/etc)?

Most people incorporate some of these immunities, but there's a few outliers. Blind and sleep are fairly difficult to counter, requiring entire accessory slots or very niche class-restricted items. There's a pretty good chance that your opponent hasn't been able to incorporate these into their build

mortal pawn
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Ok you stunned them turn 1 great now you have a 50% chance to die. You gave up priority by using that on turn one. Seems fair.

granite robin
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Hes talking about sleep dart(mostly)

past cobalt
mortal pawn
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Theres so many good counters to sleep dart assassin builds i dont need to list them here.

icy cloak
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I almost always have Sleep and Stun Immunity on my PvP loadouts 😅

If they can petrify me or freeze me and win when they would’ve won by just swinging because I’m a Heretic… all power to em

past cobalt
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Saying "my class is defensively weak so it's fine" is not much of an argument. Even using Ankou's ring and vritra charm, you're vulnerable to blight/blind/freeze

granite robin
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Assassin build does apply only one status if you are using the following( sleep dart,stun dart) unless you are favored by pet action rng with miasma followup.

But if you use skills like sand of aaru you proc blind+ the possible statuses from your adorns/weapons. Which is countered by sf and status resistance and immunities

mortal pawn
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Can we hold this to a vote? I dont really hear a lot of people in favor of status nerfs aside from stasis

past cobalt
granite robin
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We can test it

icy cloak
granite robin
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I dont need to comment

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past cobalt
granite robin
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No enchantments bc that often hits immunity issue vs deity/ here. And pet action does not increase status procs on sands of aaru...

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past cobalt
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Turns 1 and 2 (curse is self-inflicted, my mistake). Your pet chose not to attack several turns in a row, and you should 1000% have enchantments on your weapons to inflict statuses naturally

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granite robin
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Bc the whole build is weapon procs that are supported with aaruviper when snotra+skadi. If i use enchantments i might see "immune" and i miss my whole attack

past cobalt
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You will never see immune on sands of aaru.

azure python
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Containing conversations to a single thread makes it easier to follow

past cobalt
steep sluice
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I know i already asked in gilga chat but thought here would be a better place to ask, anyone know or have a rough idea of when the gilga changes or all changes as a whole will be pushing to live? As a gilga main im dying to get my hands on it but dont have beta 😂

plush badger
steep sluice
rare mason
steep sluice
grave siren
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I have a question, somewhat.

Are there any "clear" definitions of what a class identity should be? Is it something like class <x> should do content <y> better but not content <z> example "gilga can do raids and towers safely but at moderate speed, and sucks at dungeons for balance purposes" or " hera can do raids faster but with more risk, but speeds through dungeons" or " dara does every content at mediocre speed, except for dungeons where they can breeze through without buffing"

or is every class supposed to be able to do the same thing but differently? ie gilga raiding with SS3 is somewhat similar to deity raiding with apex and at the same timing? HerC does dungeons similar to dara scaling?

And what are expectations for anguish per content? Should Agony 50 be doable to all classes with " perfect" gear and amitiés, or is it just straight up impossible for classes such as Hera and RS who are affected a lot by crit maluses? Should all classes be able to do Melancholy 15, relatively speaking? (Like can a pet based BeoA do a solo horde mel 15 dungeon with acceptable success rates? What if the pets just hit like wet noodles even with perfect gear?"

Not necessarily in view of beta changes, just the general direction/mindset of the game. Like I get anguish 2.0 is supposed to be a challenge, but it shouldn't be impossible. Maybe dying to raids multiple times is alright, even in world despair, but what about dungeons and dragons monuments and towers? Seeing how dying once basically forfeits a lot of gear/drops, especially for the latter two, how about implementing a "second chance" where if you fight and survive a mini raid boss at the 75% level (so in a 50f tower then the entire 38th floor) you can die once and "be saved by a miracle?" That, or you skip the mini raid fight and try your luck

Gear scaling + ALs should make it possible to do even high agony levels, even without stasis meta

kind idol
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I assume Anguished is to allow those with max gears to feel some difficulty.

And yes some of the content are more favourable to certain classes.

Eg. PVP are more favourable to classes that boost wards and uses SS.

Summoner are better at mid to early t11.

azure python
# grave siren I have a question, somewhat. Are there any "clear" definitions of what a class...

Class identity should be less defined by content competency, but it's pretty typical in games with varied content types that certain archetypes will fair better in some content than others. To help those circumstances it can be tackled moreso with gearing than it should be by aiming to make all classes the same, as it just leads to an uninteresting world (see: Steadfast everywhere etc)

For us at the studio, we'd love to lean as much as possible into some more prototypical archetypes. Glass cannon mages, dodgy thieves, tanky warriors. And on top of that some awesome Odie flair mixed in.
We're conscious that we are constantly battling both the concerns of players around content competency, but also at times walking an uphill battle dealing with past decisions we've made that were intended to appeal to community desires that may have walked us away from class identity.

Ultimately we just want you all having fun, that's our major goal. We don't want to strip fun from people, but the crappy part of it all is sometimes the fun gets stripped by allowing skills/passives/gear get too strong in pockets. So we have to do adjustment exercises

Re: Anguish capability - it's meant to be a challenge, and is built that way. I wouldn't look at it as 'who is meant to do the best?', but rather 'am I ready for a new challenge?'. The largest limiter to your own success in Anguish content should be yourself, not how well others are doing! I'm not naive though, I understand that stacking ourselves up against others is natural, and it's frustrating if others/other classes fair better.

steep sluice
soft oxide
warped portal
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Is there any news for iOS beta testing ?

azure python
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Odie tends to post when there is availbility for iOS also.
It's a real struggle with betas, given the need for constant pushes and changes. Google tends to work with less pain than Apple there for us