2025 H2 General Discussion

[granite robin]

Have you tried something else

[icy cloak]

There isn’t anything. Bloodray worked for a couple days against the Gilga and they adjusted something back to GUrsa and I can’t hit harder than 280k which isn’t enough to eat through their 180k HP Pools (and still 500k ward)

They also have enough attack that even if I manage to break through the ward, they can still SS3 for 200k with zero ward 😅

And enough dex that I miss pretty often 😂 it is a fun problem to try and figure out while also rather demoralizing

[faint estuary]

Are you running all manaflask multipliers? They increase M1, so it shouldn’t be possible to reduce bloodray damage that extensively (believe me, I’ve tried)

[icy cloak]

I don’t have a hood so I guess not but I do have a Bident and some nasty amities

I went from 380k for a few days to 280k now

[plush badger]

Just saying, if Ascension wasn't in area pvp, you wouldn't have this problem 😉 My unwanted PSA for the day.

[icy cloak]

Dude, preach. And SS3 would be easier to balance, Bloodray hits more comparable to Rend / Epee, Chakram can still be zero’d by Deity, and we could all go back to the Wild West of Orna

Yes, please hahaha

[mortal pawn]

@radiant stratus i feel like this is moreso the problem you're having. Heretic can hit pretty hard in PVP as is with enough accuracy options floating around these days. Bloodray is a huge outlier. Im not for nerfs to make it not viable. It should still be #1 for heretic corvus but its pretty extreme right now

[past cobalt]

I think making it turn 2+ only makes it unviable

And making it not guaranteed hit smells more like a redesign than a pvp change. I doubt Odie would want that kind of a difference between pvp and pve

[mortal pawn]

Which is why i didnt vote that way. Changed my opinion on it. Bloodray being heretics best damage is a cool feature for pvp and for pve. We shouldnt be taking it away. Just balance it. 'increased accuracy', is a lot different than an unavoidable death ray

[radiant stratus]

Could be a possibility. I don’t fight slouches. But for example, I’ve been completely stopped, like end my hits and try another day stopped, by lst and fur. Gap shouldn’t be that big

There’s just no power. Too much? Maybe. But at my al levels or close to it, I’m seeing effective hp numbers in the 300k

[waxen lagoon]

This unavoidable deathray is critical for us to deal with PvE content such as mystic feather RS etc.

[mortal pawn]

An increased accuracy deathray woudnt be good enough?

An unavoidable one shouldnt be usable turn 1 then

[radiant stratus]

Scythe or Chakram don’t even tickle. And ultima is a joke.

[waxen lagoon]

mystic feather ignore anything with normal accuracy or increased accuracy ya?

[mortal pawn]

Add a flask called 'Deathray' that takes the form of Bloodray except not usable turn 1

Then change bloodray to have reduced m1 and 'increased accuracy' instead of completely unavoidable.

?

I see 2 separate purposes here

[radiant stratus]

I do think that not being able to use it turn 1 completely kills it. And would just put us back on scythe Chakram

[mortal pawn]

See 'change bloodray'

[mortal pawn]

Would this be acceptable?

[stable harness]

Mystic feather also ignores FMC... Just saying...

[waxen lagoon]

whats fmc

[stable harness]

if a RS sin't 1 shot, then doesn't matter if you use SS3, they can still dodge it

[stable harness]

fixed miss chance. Aka SS3, Chakram etc that is the main conversation point of S2/ MW / etc

[waxen lagoon]

I was writing about PvE

[radiant stratus]

When’s the last time any realm survived? lol

[stable harness]

Still applies?

SS3 or any of the above if you have a dark pegasus, falen RS, etc it will kick in

[radiant stratus]

All 3 offensive glass cannons are in the gutter. Realm, GS and heretic if blood ray is taken.

[past cobalt]

It really doesn't make sense to create a third ray flask, two of which are only usable by corvus

[mortal pawn]

Makes sense. Just trying to separate the pve utility from pvp

[icy cloak]

A reduced Accuracy in PvP would solve the similar issue without a whole new flask though yeah?

[waxen lagoon]

scaleable accuracy? 100% accuracy only when fully charged?

[past cobalt]

If it was coded to function differently in pvp and pve, sure.i just don't think that's reasonable for NF

[plush badger]

One thing I have learned in all my years of gaming is the player tenet of "Anything that kills me is OP and needs nerfed."

[mortal pawn]

Thatd be cool, if your turn 1 was 50% charge. It would be 'increased accuracy' not 'flat miss'

Id be on board. Heretics do need this tbh

[granite robin]

Oh cant wait for eos replica bufr

[faint estuary]

Assuming increased accuracy means it wouldn’t bypass pet block any longer, similarly to other FMC skills right?

[crisp oxide]

My take has been there's a big difference between increased accuracy and guaranteed to hit. Increased accuracy is fine and very welcome. I would say welcome on more moves than have FMC now. Guaranteed to hit lets you throw all other concerns to the wind and build only for that ability in most cases. If the ability has other drawbacks (limited use, glass cannon, low m1) that warrants more accuracy bonus but don't think it should ever invalidate dex.

[past cobalt]

If we don't want to invalidate dex we're gonna have to throw out every effect that boost accuracy

[crisp oxide]

No I don't think that's right

[past cobalt]

If your argument is "well accuracy effects have build restrictions", so does bloodray

[mortal pawn]

Pet block being Beo/BeoAs only saving grace, yeah. Increased accuracy as in riftrogue/ranger spec

In a world where high ward builds can easily one shot heretics damage-wise, heretics should be able to one shot them back. The undodgable death ray part of it is the issue tbh.

[radiant stratus]

Literally man. Even if other people having been taking it for years. Jeez.

[crisp oxide]

Every build has build restrictions, I would have to significantly alter a SS build to include accuracy or dex. I'm saying the only options aren't hit all the time and be entirely beholden to dex.

[past cobalt]

You have been advocating for removing all fixed miss and guaranteed hit from skills.

What are we supposed to do when that happens besides focus on dex or accuracy? Miss 40% of attacks against RS and Deity?

Of course the only option at that point is to focus on dex or accuracy

[crisp oxide]

Why is focusing on dex or accuracy for specific matchups a bad thing? Yes I am advocating for fmc removal but the inclusion of accuracy mods on these moves

Like you surely don't need 700k damage to kill a realmshifter, is it bad to have to adapt a little more to a specific matchup?

[past cobalt]

Aren't we invalidating dex by building accuracy?

[crisp oxide]

No you're building and adapting against it, which is way more interesting than my kill shot is a one size fits all for every build. The fact that dex would force you to accommodate it is not invalidating it, its actually completely validating the stat.

[radiant stratus]

Realms build dex and stats. I played dorados. Scythe gets heavily reduced or zeroed.

[past cobalt]

• The only kill shots that are one size fits all are the two being discussed at length, ss and bloodray. This does not warrant removal of all guaranteed hit.
• Dex forcing me to accommodate on every class and build is not just "dex matters yay!", it's meta-warping

[faint estuary]

Is having a different build against every class bad?

[past cobalt]

What build is not going to maximize dex or accuracy if all fixed miss is gone?

[crisp oxide]

You won't have to accommodate it on every class and build if you're fighting a hydrus or a gilga. Its something to consider but it'll be a dex specific scenario requiring you to know and adapt to your opponent.

[radiant stratus]

Why don’t we try a heretic build that goes all in on accuracy. And see how hard it hits ..

[faint estuary]

Why would I do that when fighting a BeoH? Or a gilga?

[past cobalt]

So the hydrus and gilga players do what then? Ignore dex/accuracy on every build?

[faint estuary]

Dex is not a boogeyman, it’s a stat like any other

[mortal pawn]

If bloodray damage were the same and we took the flat miss, how much would ranger spec hit with bloodray ?

[crisp oxide]

Well if they're fighting each other probably not much, if they're fighting a class with dex they probably use some accuracy boosting gear or dex options

[past cobalt]

BeoH and Gilga building dex against other classes is a bit of a joke; they will obviously build accuracy. So they will have to build accuracy against 90% of classes

[past cobalt]

Unlike every other stat, it affects both defense and offense

[crisp oxide]

I can make a gilga build that gives me a bunch of dex before dipping into accuracy. I think my primary build will actually become more accurate in a lot of circumstances, but probably not against deity or realmshifter.

[radiant stratus]

Currently I’m hitting around 250. So take off 40%

[past cobalt]

With survivability amities, top end is over 400k at my AL (napkin math)

[crisp oxide]

What does blood ray hit if you needed to incorporate 20% accuracy into your build? Is it enough to kill a realmshifter?

[past cobalt]

More than enough currently

Ranger spec is only a 40% damage loss

[crisp oxide]

So if you make specific build swaps in response to particular matchups you can still achieve regular wins?

[past cobalt]

I can still invalidate dex with ranger spec, yes

RS is still 0 counterplay against bloodray, yes

[radiant stratus]

Lol. We fixing from the top down?

Regular damage is more in that 250k range

[crisp oxide]

Well I think there is an argument to be said that ranger spec is a little overtuned, but I argued that last cycle as well. In any case I think its more interesting that we actually need to adapt builds for particular matchups than nor

[past cobalt]

Removing guaranteed hit from all skills simply solves nothing

[mortal pawn]

It solves being able to close your eyes and delete people

[past cobalt]

A spec swap qualifies as this?

[radiant stratus]

Pfft. You say that when everyone has been using ss3 for 2 years. Now we should go for variety lol.

[mortal pawn]

Sure

[past cobalt]

All it does is change how we invalidate dex, because there is no option where you don't account for the possibility that your opponent makes you miss 40% of the time

[faint estuary]

Geppu has been advocating for SS changes for a long while, despite being a gilga exclusive player

[radiant stratus]

I know. But everyone supposedly “advocates” but the fact is for 2 years everyone has been using ss3. You know how tiring it is?! And everyone remained Gilga. While heretics switched to other classes. And “advocated” but I bet anything that those advocates were all using ss3.

Like come on. It’s been 2 months. And the nerf to ss3 is a joke when ward is that high.

This conversation is actually mentally draining

[crisp oxide]

I argued for fmc removal last go around too, yeah I use SS, and will continue to even without FMC, also looking at 2H options with new gursa. I just think the game is a lot more boring when the meta is solved and no adaptation is needed. Last patch required me to make multiple SS variants based on the opponent and that was a step in the right direction.

[mortal pawn]

Pvp is becoming harder and harder to balance. I dont really know a good overarching solution at this point honestly. ALs makes it impossible to gauge balance

[past cobalt]

My big point in this is that removing guaranteed hit from bloodray will solve nothing. It'll be pretty easy for me to incorporate accuracy and still deal 250k minimum

[radiant stratus]

Same old issue

[faint estuary]

You’d at least have to deal with pet protect if nothing else

[past cobalt]

Beo continues to win ig

[faint estuary]

Anyone can build into pet protect

[past cobalt]

Just a lot less effective, absolute max of 26% with perfect amities and an otherwise useless pet

[radiant stratus]

It’s awesome. How the game needs a mandatory second chance, parapet and 2 block amities with coral reef to even PvP because we’re past the point of no return.

[past cobalt]

Just doesn't really solve anything

[faint estuary]

Amities that increase second chance when?

[sterile topaz]

Jord gets pretty crazy real quick, though

[faint estuary]

Don’t get me talking about jord 2 lol

[crisp oxide]

I think the point here is that adaptation is good, 250k wouldn't kill me for example but it would kill most realmshifters.

[radiant stratus]

Poor realms

[past cobalt]

It doesn't feel like the point is "adaptation is good" because you start with "remove all fixed miss". Everyone already adapts to Dex by building around fixed miss skills; we'd just change how we do it. There is no solution to "invalidating dex" as you tend to frame it.

And in the case of bloodray the damage decrease is really the only result that matters

[crisp oxide]

Well in what I'm proposing is you adapt to dex by using increased accuracy skills plus dex/acc options you can pull together.

[past cobalt]

Sure but why

[crisp oxide]

More strategic/responsive play, additional nuance to builds which may require additional gear chases, variety of move sets.

[past cobalt]

I don't think I agree that it would accomplish these things. I think accuracy effects would become somewhat mandatory and the best skills would just have lower damage and high accuracy

[crisp oxide]

Personally wouldn't be wasting accuracy in my build vs tank/low dex classes that's just me though. If you have equal or more dex then youre missing a lot of juice by not including other things in lieu of it

[past cobalt]

Fixed miss skills are already used for specific cases and against specific classes; IMO this is already some build variety.

Let me ask a question - how much added accuracy do you think chakram should have?

[crisp oxide]

Hard to say as I'm not really a user of those classes. But it would make sense if it has more since it can be reduced through armor

[past cobalt]

Ok well this is getting a bit too theoretical, I'm not sure there's too much feasibility in removing all fixed miss in this patch anyway. Can we agree to only tackle ss and bloodray in this regard?

I laid out why I don't think removing the guaranteed hit from bloodray will be an effective solution, I'd still be able to oneshot way above my AL with ease

Not to mention the need to redesign the flask if this was the proposed solution

[crisp oxide]

My ideal approach would be, though I know it may be out of scope of this patch:

Full FMC removal
Accuracy given to moves based on totality of factors
Ranger spec nerfed
Dex differential for hit rate moves from flat value to % based

[past cobalt]

Yeah I think that's a totally separate discussion/beta and may be a minority opinion

[sterile topaz]

Tbh I don’t know how much a ranger spec nerf would help, knowing that now there are 10% accuracy and 200 dex cele adorns

[crisp oxide]

Yeah these are pretty strong but running 4-6 of these is a pretty big loss in damage for a lot of builds

For me to run each piece would lose either A) 8 pet act rate which I can't get back or an large amount of CD buffs which I would have to readorn armor for

[faint estuary]

I’d still like to see them lowered to at least 5% acc. 10% is so strong and it’s easy to get away with running one

[sterile topaz]

True, although with 4 you’re already at max accuracy

[crisp oxide]

Yeah I think they're probably a little too strong especially with plus dex

[sterile topaz]

Yeah

[crisp oxide]

6 vs dorado though

[past cobalt]

Except you'd theoretically have skills with innately added accuracy and could run ranger spec or other stuff

[crisp oxide]

Yeah they're prob a bit too strong

5 is probably more fair even without the dex. It doesn't matter in a world with FMc though, they're useless adorns until anything happens.

[past cobalt]

The fact that they came out like this without changes when other items were nerfed after initial codex hype tells me the studio is not exactly onboard with removing/nerfing accuracy

Speculation of course and maybe they could be swayed, but it is what it is

[crisp oxide]

(or effects could scale stronger with quality which I think is super cool. 3/4/5/6/7 is even cooler if you have to grind for it imo)

But that's another topic

[sterile topaz]

Thought Dorado was 50%, although I would have to check

[crisp oxide]

I think its a 50% buff to whatever the chance already is so 40>60

[past cobalt]

50% increase to the dodge rate from dex formula, which is a max of 40%

[sterile topaz]

I see, thanks for clarifying

[past cobalt]

If Dorado and their opponent have 5k dex, dorado passive is not increasing dodge rate

[mortal pawn]

So for fun I tried to do as apples to apples of a comparison as possible at 0 AL in Beta with the gear I had available. No elemental damage boosts. Heretic / Realm / Gilga / Beo. Here are the results:

GHerc:

RealmD:

HAra:

BeoH:

All full glass builds, but GHerc was just hit 200k ward and max attack in tanky gear. Note i did a few hits on several opponents to make sure these were in the ballpark

[past cobalt]

Your Heretic could use fero eyes instead of achlys souls and a menja hood for more mag

And be even glassier than everyone else

[mortal pawn]

With the gear i have in beta. Try not to overanalyze the details and look at the bigger picture

[icy cloak]

Tanky Herc can do almost as much damage as glass Ara and more than Dorado sans BoF

Sounds like the usual 😅🥹

[past cobalt]

Well yes, the bigger picture is unchanged. Heretic deals comparable damage while being significantly less tanky (on the surface)

BeoH remains the damage king with extremely high hp and ward pools

Gherc is tanky and deals comparable damage

[icy cloak]

And Dorado is left out in the rain

[mortal pawn]

I just wanted to provide some hard data points instead of thoughts and feelings

[icy cloak]

If you add BoF to that GHerc or Element it passes Heretic even if they have an Aaru Hood on and catches up to the BeoH, yesh?

BoF Dorado could also be shown but that is sad damage either way

[faint estuary]

Why just scythe and not the other skills though?

[sterile topaz]

No GSH representation 😔

[icy cloak]

Because contrary to… popular? Belief, Heretics tend to use their highest m1 skill which is Magic Scythe… yes Bloodray exists but as that is likely getting nerfed and GHerc SS is getting buffed… 🤷🏽‍♂️

[mortal pawn]

I dont have time to get data points all day gotta get some work done 😅

What do you want to see

[plush badger]

I posted several builds in the Gilga discussion channel

[icy cloak]

Chakram and RS are zero’d or so paltry damage so often that I don’t use or see them used almost ever - a Deity will zero them almost every time, the local Gilgas all zero them, why would I even have it equipped?

[crisp oxide]

Almost every high end heretic I see sits on chakram but might be a narrow view of things

[icy cloak]

If you’re running BoF that might be the only time I’d do it and just to try and toast you. Otherwise, it isn’t reliable enough to have equipped

[mortal pawn]

Yeah and those are even more busted with CD, which i didnt build here. I cant build them in beta right now

[plush badger]

The bottom line is SS3 Still has quadratic scaling up until the M2 cap, so you are going to notice much larger than linear increases up until the M2 potential is reached, after that it's going to be linear

[faint estuary]

Chakram and blood ray have been the most discussed ones here, so I think those data points would be useful. I don’t have the flask gear or id test them myself

[icy cloak]

Chakram in a mirror is a moot point but okay lol

[past cobalt]

Chakram is not for every matchup, so scythe is the most generic spell

[mortal pawn]

I could use those on Beo too. And rs2 on realm.

Take the m1 and m2 numbers and draw conclusions

I dont have the correct bloodray build to compare

[crisp oxide]

Maybe cause I really only need to consider high end players. After a certain threshold its very hard to completely 0.

[mortal pawn]

Everything else is linear too

[icy cloak]

There we go - correct photo with defense

So not zero’d but…?

Here is standard no defense

So if you aren’t a BoF, you have nothing to be afraid of (or a fellow glass cannon)

[faint estuary]

So, a pretty cool skill depending on matchup. Leaves room for counterplay, but is also very strong in the correct matchup

[past cobalt]

Yes, that's chakram. Don't agree fmc should be removed from it

[mortal pawn]

It kills people without defense. Hard stop on its use case

[faint estuary]

I do, but that’s because realm exists. But again, we can leave the fmc discussion for another time, and focus on the 2 major outliers in SS3 and Bloodray

[icy cloak]

That was only two pieces of defensive gear on on a Heretic

3 pieces of defense or an offhand Ymir or Autumna Shield and it is zero’d

Can Heretic get away with that and deal damage? Not even

Here is why Chakram isn’t an issue. This is vs a BoF Deity 😅

Here is vs a BeoA

[past cobalt]

If realm changes their build and adapts to chakram matchups, they're fine

[radiant stratus]

In reality Chakram is a dead skill. It’s only good against BoF users.

[icy cloak]

Some more randoms - no I don’t know what they all had

[viscid pawn]

I was hitting people between 50-150 ALs when I was using it. Not saying it is "the best" but it is really high up there. Better time with that than heretic blood-ray I will say that. And my heretic is higher AL summons just need to hit 1 damage generally. But gilgy is stronger. Gilgy is strongest in pvp atm imo.

It does btw kill second chance. No idea why you think it doesnt

I have killed people when they got a 3rd chance even as low AL gs many times. Was my go to pvp class for 2 years when I used to main heretic.

I have survived many times when I got unlucky and missed bp2. Over half the times on offense which... btw happens with heretic and blood ray more that 50% of the time

Heretic corvus is squisher than gs 🤨

[viscid pawn]

Chakram is weak though. I 0 out heretics with over 150 ALs and im AL 56 and not using morri gear.

Only good against BoF players

But yea gs is terrible at defense which is why I dont think it is op either

If you hit them you just need to smack them with a wet napkin and they die too

[sterile topaz]

Didn't say it doesn't happen, just said it doesn't cut it against higher AL opponents. You're also cooked the moment someone has a decent amount of hp, or if you miss/get blocked by a pet, something that can't happen while using Bloodray

[viscid pawn]

Parapet and 2nd chance. Just because the spell isnt invincible doesnt mean blood-ray is. Gs gets a second chance way more often than heretic corvus, but if they miss heretic corvus, they cant deal a good hit after that

[sterile topaz]

My max damage at AL52 is 212k against no res at all, while people with just a few more AL are hitting for 300-400k using Bloodray, or Phil with only 16 more dealing +500k more

[viscid pawn]

Pet block isnt a very high chance really and counters most burst builds. So that isnt really a large contender to worry about. It is nice for beo but that is also beo A only line of defense really

200k is plenty to kill someone 🫡

If you deal 9m damage or 1m damage does it matter if they only have 50k hp?

[sterile topaz]

212k against an Arcanic, while using a Nekro, which misses most of the time

[viscid pawn]

Lol what? How you hit so weak?

[sterile topaz]

If you go safe with the Nolan's you're looking at 130-150k

[viscid pawn]

You not fully spec into max mag/bp boosting gear?

I hit 120-150k in pvp at AL 8

Using ranger spec for accuracy

[viscid pawn]

No 2h with 6 boosts? Trev charms

[sterile topaz]

That's worse since no Seq

[viscid pawn]

Similar to what I use but lower quality gear I see tho ok. That does make a decent difference too

Accuracy is main bane of bp 2 so ranger spec is necessary. That is why you are missing so much prob.

Also 30% mag from trev charms is still awesome

[sterile topaz]

Ranger doesn't cut it since you're still missing with only 30% acc, you need 40% to make sure you don't hit

[viscid pawn]

? Ranger brings it down to 10% miss chance at MAX dex diff. I find im missing about 5% of the time in pvp vs High AL enemies generally.

And trev charms make up for sequencer. 2h gets a 6th pact boon augment to make up for nekro staff. But unless bp got nerfed you should hit harder. I have been in pvp. I stopped using it since gilgy is strong and was using lazy ss3 dursa with 50 ALs and just AL diff made it overall better

But my gs hits as hard as 50 AL gursa with great gear. And counters second chance, but low survivability.

But anyways same things that make gs not op in pvp makes blood ray not op either, just need to make some m1 down for m2 in pve at least so it can be countered a bit better at most.

With rates with gs AL 8 was about 80% against random people (is a lot of rng with who ya fight though), meme hit bloodray was about 30%.AL 25 heretic

[past cobalt]

Ranger is 30% acc, so 90% minimum hitrate unless dorado

[viscid pawn]

Ah right yea dorito has 50% dodge. I forget sincei hit them with ss3 generally :p

Which as much as it nerfs me... ss3 should miss more on dorito. At least an extra 10% miss chance

Yea i was already saying all gilgs are op with collateral

Win rate is like 99% with gilgy herc atm

Ursa is more op from auto counter but that is slated to be moved to pve only which is good. Ss3 will do less damage too so that is another nerf gilgy needed.

[rare mason]

Deity changes... Mixed opinion. I like that we replaced the demigod ursa with something more fitting but 20% almost seems like a Nerf.

Losing steadfest... Yeah... I guess it is how it is, community is community.

The spike shield reduction seems unnecessary, or am i missing something?

I do like that Gilga is getting a lotta changes. Barely seeing gilgas anymore.

[viscid pawn]

Ss3 nerfs I think are because it is strong enough where it is kinda dominating pvp builds. Gilgy in particular and beo H hit insanely hard and it has very high m1. Enough to make def not worth a much. 🙂
Not a fan of the deity changes tho since I dont think they are op with all the buffs the other classes got.

[rare mason]

Ah! So basically, i feel as deity that SS outside of PvP isnt really that great. Im using it for anguish raiding, but i avoid it anywhere else as it lacks the punch i desire. I prefer speed.

I also don't think that thats the case with the SS chance as then it would be a PvP exclusive change. I dont see nerfing PvE as logical then, so there must be another reason.

If the changes will get pushed like they are now i might switch to Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh players are rare, because only a couple seem to know what to do. I originally played gilga and i switched to deity back then cause i wanted the omniwear but i guess that should'nt be my only class choice reason

But yeah i dont get the deity nerfs. Deity is'nt that op. We got so much equpment lately for other classes, that did a lotta work. Now seeing the buffs for other classes, which means we finally can hop off the nerf deity train, makes the nerf obsolete. Its already tedious enough to play deity with the random T.Buffs^^"

[viscid pawn]

Yea even in pvp dursa ss3 isnt that strong, it is really good but not crazy. They get really high def and ward tho. But yea pvp balance thing mainly. Beo and gilgy are the ones that are crazy strong. Pvp exclusive nerf could be good too tbh.

Yea gilg is really strong but a lot of people already didnt play gilg because of how weak it was before all the many buffs, and a decent number who still do or have became a gilg since didnt change their builds to match the changed scaling.

Deity for wearing any gear is one of their large perks haha. But dont feel like they need the nerf... especially with how annoying debuffs are in pve...

For example my dursa did between 120-128k damage generally with ss3 in pvp, gilg herc deals 190-206k for initial hit and over 100k on collateral hit. Dursa AL 50 and gilg AL 56 for comparison. Collateral hit also counters second chance if the first proced it.

But dursa was a decent bit harder to kill even tho my gilg herc is also very tanky

[rare mason]

Main reasons for picking deity was the versatility with omnigear and not having to deal with dots - losing one of them would be terrible to me personally. I do hope the deity nerf, with all the buffs others get, will be reverted. The SS adjustment is bad enough.

[viscid pawn]

This is sub-optimal gear, I didnt want to swap adorns while testing stuff. I my hype gear would be better. Small reference for pve. XD. But yea ss3 needed the nerf but sadly it does effect deity a decent bit, but deity does have other options for attacks that are great. The direct nerfs to deity though... kinda ruin the class imo.

And gunnr is a really easy buff to use as gilg since magic attacks dont hit very hard generally in raids and when they do... I can easily tank them even with no res.

So many improvements i can do to this too easily

[rare mason]

Mother of god, and thats not even finesse...

[viscid pawn]

Was using 100% collateral before since I was being lazy and never checked to find frenzy makes collateral chance 100% before... and havent farmed a second set of gear

[viscid pawn]

Nor raider. That was cataphract spec

[rare mason]

Oh god x.x

[viscid pawn]

Sadly I missed the 5% ward regen/ 17% collateral damage amity...

Hybrid isnt bad but since stats arent even im only getting like 12% boost

It does have buff duration too which is nice qol

[rare mason]

Meanwhile im probably not using my class correctly if gilga can do this much damage with this setup while i do not even half of this, but it seems my class is too op and needs to be nerfed cause ppl cant pres bloodray or rend epee

[viscid pawn]

Further into anguish though I could see the m1 reduction really hurting, but in pvp at least it is necessary.

Could also use lugus too for more :p

[rare mason]

As a PvP change it fully makes sense, as a PvE change it baffles me much.

But yeah. I might not have the equipment to just become a gilga, and im unsure if i can live up to deity BL2 when it comes to AoE.

Guess i'll see how it plays out. But seeing deity getting scraps for a long time and then that is'nt that lovely.

[viscid pawn]

Im not far enough into anguish to comment on how bad it will be for pve so I have focused on the pvp portion of the nerf. If people who bothered to raise anguish more can mention more, maybe the nerf can be a pvp one like how a lot of heretic spells have been nerfed for pvp

[viscid pawn]

Oh right I also found yel chest beats this one by a large margin too for damage so there is that too. Will prob have to go back and do a new ss of one of those fights

Any gilgs with a mirror in high anguish would be great to see feedback on damage diff in raids and such

[crisp oxide]

At higher anguish I'm losing between 10-15% damage over live ss and that's with full swash which I think will be affected least.

[rare mason]

Would absolutely love to check the SS nerfs for myself, and how dots will pester me now, but my mirror seemed to not work out... ^^"

[viscid pawn]

Yea so prob 20-25% for non-swash/bof maybe? Hm

[crisp oxide]

This is pretty high anguish though. 31 melancholy 40 agony. Wasn't able to test torment yet

[viscid pawn]

Oh probably not too bad then 😮

[viscid pawn]

Is that when they are full or as they get low and enraged?

[crisp oxide]

Pretty much full

[viscid pawn]

Still a good marker though 😄 but will lose a lot as they get down and with massive hp pools it will be more noticeable at the high anguish 😮

But yea thay is also really high anguish so that shouldnt be an issue then really

[rare mason]

Nvm mirror worked, wrong email i thought of.

Losing about 25% damage on SS on the low end on 18 agony... With BoF

[viscid pawn]

Yea if ya are using anyone but gilg m1 is reduced 25%

Gilgy gets boost to m2 so we wont lose as much, especially as gilg herc.

[rare mason]

So not only do i have to skip much more turns now drinking cure alls cause of losing steadfest, i also deal much less damage. Hm... This is not fun and feels unfounded.

Ah, i forgot about the ursa passive change. Let me stack that first.

[viscid pawn]

Yea or having to swap to weaker gear and lose even more to get a ton of status resistances. One of the big pains of playing gilg herc in live... so im glad to be getting it hopefully in this next patch... but uh... deity needs it

[viscid pawn]

Oh right I havent looked at that im gonna go check it out

Oh... well that is a mixed bag. That passive is 40% boost to all stats from start of the battle, but no redline... which, for deity isnt bad tbh. Zerks are generally stronger than redline anyways and safer and now you can get both. No blueline, but how many dursas were bluelining?

[rare mason]

Does it only work on world map bosses...?
Please dont tell me it does...

[rare mason]

Tooltip says 20%

[viscid pawn]

No you need to stack it like the t9 passive

[rare mason]

Oh nvm it goes to 200% and ends at 40% i didnt say anything. Thats pretty fun

Okay so. Now that its 40%, and that i dont have to redline anymore. I dont need the cure alls. Okay. That was an issue of thought process on my side.

Ill test it more.
Tho still i disagree with the SS nerf for deity. Can't judge Beo or Gilga, but i dont see the point on deity

[viscid pawn]

Yup same as t9 godlime passive

[rare mason]

I switched to deity when i was already T10, like 4 years ago

[viscid pawn]

Deity can still use rs2 and ultima strikes 😄

[viscid pawn]

Yea same I just had looked at them after XD summoner t9 ftw lol

Main gilgy but play a lot of the other classes. Did main gs and heretic for a while. Heretic for the meme hits only now pretty much haha

So no need to worry about redline nor blueline, and while in buffing phase you get the 40% stats and can just stack it with zerks. Idk about other people but I like it

Still has their free turn on apex too which is the nicest part of dursa

Free dc 🙂

Also means 40 effective ALs of stats more for pvp too first turn

[rare mason]

Losing the +130% and then the SS nerf together, paired with loss of steadfest (aka having to pop panaceas left and right) is AWFUL. Straight up awful.

Raiding is not fun at all anymore. Dungeons are a bit better. But raiding... God no. Thats not fum at all...
Losing steadfest really is'nt necessary.

If its cause of PvP, make it a PvE only change. Its possible, Gursa is proof. Please.
Same with SS...

[viscid pawn]

Do you ever actually do 0 mana 1 hp in fights? I never did since that would have been annoying and no zerks

[viscid pawn]

I agree tho. Steadfast is a qol nerf... but that new passive is stackable easily with zerks, works in pvp turn 1 and it doesnt require you to try and blueline which is annoying 😄

Ashen ruby is really nice and would ruin the 80% redline and zerks would just kill ya. Zerk 1 and 2 are easy to get and raider is an amazing spec and gets you zerk 3. But just 1 and 2 is 87.5% damage boost and 25% all other stats 😄 sadly isnt m1... but you also get 40% base stats with the new one too. So half of old redline without being at 25% hp and most of old blueline without being at like 20% mana

Provided if you did like doing that 1hp and 0 mana, it is a large loss

[clever kindle]

Pretty sure potg doesn’t work in PvP, just an fyi

[viscid pawn]

Oh does it not? That is kinda lame since all the other ones like gilgy does 🙁

Ah dang yeah just swapped and checked stats on gursa and pvp stat page is not benefitting from the 20%. Ew. Well that is a buff for most pve if ya do zerks instead of redlining normally then, and just a nerf for pvp again then...

[past cobalt]

I hope Dangy gets to mirrors tomorrow

[granite robin]

Well we all still have to remember that pet block is weaker second chance in fast matches. It can be scaled into 50% sure but that requires a turn to cast jord2 and now with ai changes. This will make pets cast defencive skills more. So less attacking

[rare mason]

I usually did 1/2 HP and kept bluelining between 30-50%. It was a powerful passive for the ones who were down using it.

And im unsure if gods II would work PvP... Seeing the general community stance towards deity since we got apex makes me doubt we get anything nice left and right, even tho Odie loves us

I played a bit more and i can say so far is, i dont really like ursa turning into severely worse BeoH that much. I miss my reliable damage, and im lacking it now, but it saves me 2 turns in raids, jay.

I do want my Deity steadfest back. Seeing what monster Gilga became, generally heretic and realm with their damage and their multipliers, i dont see why playing deity needs to be less fun. Only reason i see it beeing removed at this point is to frustrate deity players.
My suggestion:

• Spiked Shield & Deity Celestials Steadfest removal: PvP only

I prefer fun. This, this is not fun.

[viscid pawn]

Yea less chance but it has perks. Like if it blocks first hit vs gilgy then no collateral hit. Also chance to proc more times does not reduce per activation like 2nd chance and no limit to activations. Also negates the hit instead of leaving you vulnerable at 1hp. Both have their perks 🙂

[viscid pawn]

1/2 hp is 0% redline. Blueline is just annoying but it gives some boosts. Just this one will be like you are at 10% mana pretty much but all the time. Cant redline with zerks really unless you are suicidal or playing rs. If ya don't like zerks tho then current passive is way stronger.

And it is more reliable and consistent

But terrible that it doesnt work in pvp. Huge nerf in pvp there

[rare mason]

And then the SS nerf on top and beeing dotted is free now too ;P

I hope that the nerfs get revisioned. Every classline else got buffed so i dont see the nerf as logical anymore, neither do i think losing steadfest is a wise decision, because it just makes playing Deity much less fun all around.

But yeah thats true, working with zerks. Burning lotsa mushrooms i have to prefarm of which some are only available in events. Yay. XD

[viscid pawn]

Berserk mushroom is a normal drop. I never use my event smelly mushrooms XD I horde them forever XD

Zerk 1 and 2 is easy to get in normal play as deity

3 if ya wanna run raider and get the 20% base attack and zerk 3 50% all stats 😄

Zerks are also multiplicative with ALs and redline is additive

[sterile topaz]

Deities when they finally have a balanced class in pvp after enjoying SC with redline, SF, apex and godlike stats for more than a year and a half 🗿

[viscid pawn]

Can also run zerks with the new 40% one both

Apex is terrible in pvp. Cant really get it off before fight is over. 80% redline on sc is pretty strong haha but heretic also gets 50% on theirs from losing the mana. Deity is tanky so hit lower on them, but dont struggle to defeat deity in pvp tbh. Think the 40% would be a lot nicer tho overall

Not having to redline tho just is qol of not having to worry about dealing with hp management while avoiding healing too. Blueline... if you dont get thay missing mana regen just right to be below 10% and regen enough for your spells without getting too much mana... it is generally weaker. Does start from 100% tho so easier to deal with a bit but you arent getting full 50% unless using offhand ability or simple attack

New one is 40% and you can use a ruby to keep hp full and zerk all ya want with hp full for safety. 😄

Has pros and cons so if ya dont use zerks again, it is a nerf haha. If ya do? Kinda just a qol buff. While qol nerf from steadfast

[rare mason]

As you would have read if you actually read what i wrote, im fine with it beeing kept in PvP - just not in PvE. But yeah, i know, Community hate deity train, i got it. ^^

[rare mason]

i just tried that with the limited options i have since keep items arent ported for the mirrors. Either im doing something wrong, or im just losing a lot of damage, while gaining nothing of it... hm. Zerk really doesnt feel well.

[sterile topaz]

You did say this replying to a pvp message, though

But yeah, I saw that your previous messages were mostly about pve

[rare mason]

Yeah its nice for everything thats not raiding. having no passive in PvP now, like hydrus, but not the stats and hybrid beast that make hydrus hydrus, is very bad. I understand redlining isnt fun, but hey, it was at least powerful. This isnt.

[rare mason]

PvP is a oneshot cestpit for the past years, and i love it. Mostly, any class that has no SC is bad in PvP, and any that has tries to stack and gamble on it. Its a nice meta.
I dont really personally see the need to remove steadfest, as i never ever use dots in PvP, and im quite happy with my 7k territorys and 95% war winrates. And i only ever struggle against classes with SC, or beoH, because they have two and outperform with it. (Petblock & SC).

I do think multi proccing SC is something that should be removed from deity. Also dont think having +80% stats when it procs in PvP is fair.
One of those issues got adressed, the other didn't, instead, its now easier to be dotted which is basically useless as meta is SS and bloodray which have either a fixed miss or dont miss, but i guess for some early T10 it can make a difference. And i only ever used dots until i reached AL10 or so to deal with realms, since then i cant think of a time where i ever did, neither as gilga or deity.

Aka, the change about Steadfest doesnt make any sense to me PvP wise, but i dont care, as it changes nothing - but for PvE, it just makes it vastly more infuriating to play my class that already struggles with damage. Cool, im tanky, but im still taking longer to do content, and in an infinite grinding game speed is the essential component. Now the one thing that really gave me an edge, beeing able to not deal with turn losses as much, got removed. And i dont really see the value in it - especially when it comes to raiding, where the new passive and the removal of steadfest is an insane double nerf. I see that it buffs Ursa in Horde content, which is funny cause looking at its buffing process, it gets extra chance per kill - but like, theres no point in doing that much as we have BL2 on Ara. Im on Mel18 so far and while Ursa works, its still vastly slower then Ara, and i dont think that before Mel30 i will have to switch. And i dont think theres much people who will ever care to reach Mel30 and then switch.

So all in all i cant really see the process behind this. It just seems to me like Odie wanted to appeal.

Every class got buffed so we are AT LEAST on pair now, while i 100% see gilga now outperforming easily, and Beo too, but still the nerf hammer hit because the community outcries were too loud, even tho it wsa unnecessary.
Im playing to have fun. Having to constantly deal with the most unfun aspect of the game, dots, is not fun. So simply, i ask for it to be reverted.

[sterile topaz]

You've seen the polls?

[rare mason]

I did not. Are they in here?

I am not keeping track of 20 channels here. Its a bit cumbersome what is asked for sometimes.

[sterile topaz]

#1437527716634296400 message
#1437527716634296400 message

[rare mason]

I remember now, i voted for those. Would absolutely have loved to lose the tempbuffs instead X3

But yes, in the context that everything else got buffed the nerf feels unfounded. Especially since the nerf is basically just removing a lotta QoL that made playing deity a fun experience, since big choice for me for deity was steadfest. Now raiding is awful.
In the context of pre-buffing the other classes i would have had a bit more understandment for it but right now im just seeing the fun in deity drastically reduced, which is a shame, as that shouldnt be the point of a a patch.

[glossy pebble]

Any chance to get a mirror, please? Request is waiting to approve since 11 November. Thank you.

[dense gulch]

Instead of Steadfast what if deities had status immunities to the 4 elements?

[rare mason]

i mean, that sounds fun.
But the major issues are turn thieves

stun beeing the most previlent of em, with blight

[clever kindle]

Neither of those are the 4 basic elements?

[azure python]

Make sure to read the pinned post ;)
They are a manual task per individual mirror we weigh against everything else. They'll be coming soon, but let the post needn't ping for it :)

[viscid pawn]

Zerk is stronger the more ALs you have, classline passives are stronger at lower. Classline passives like redline, blueline and such are additive with ALs for stats where zerk is multiplicative. So if you have 0 ALs on rs redlined you have effectively 100 then for doubled stats. If you are at AL 100 then full redline rs brings to effective AL 200, so effectively 50% more stats total.

For damage tests, BoF and Raider always come out on top for overall power on raid damage, raider has way higher survivability though since zerk 3 is 50% multiplicative boost to all stats. Makes ya pretty tanky. And beast chest is just awesome boost to damage for deity for 50% damage boost.
Q

[viscid pawn]

Not to mention thematically speaking, shouldnt a deity be hardy and hard to poison and debuff in general?

[viscid pawn]

Those polls have pretty limited options really. The deity celestial classes are fine as they are. They arent weak and they arent op. They have their strong points and weak points. If something is removed it depends on how it is replaced, so a poll on "what should be removed and 'maybe' replaced" is a bit odd to me. It isnt a poll on "should they lose steadfast or not."

Has some use tho since it at least can show devs which one of their passive they would rather lose if they do want to tweak them, but these changes in beta is what beta is for. Devs try and change and players test to see how it effects gameplay. Devs look at feedback and see if that change is what they wanted or not in practice. 🙂

For example I wouldnt have wanted Demigod (ursa) removed... until I saw the new one that is less of a hassle to use... then my mind changed to... that actually would be nice to get the boost without having to worry about it. Same with with Dara at first with apex stacking, that ended up being pretty cool since then you dont have to play knockoff heretic on bluelining so much and can just have the stats for good once tou build up. (Weakness being it takes longer than other bonuses like it).

So makes a good poll hard to make definitive (nothing against ya Yoshi love ya :)) which is why we have the discussion threads. Though it has to be difficult for the devs to parse through so much ngl 🤣.

Steadfast is mostly just qol and thematically, the deity should be the class with the hardiest constitution.

I do know i need to get on and test that blueline mystic
feather on heretic corvus because that looks cool. Losing steadfast there is a pain but I completely understand why they are. Redlining and bluelining both for them is difficult, especially without tenacity... so while you arent likely to be at 0 mana for full effect of it, you can also have more hp to make up for it. Looks really good 😄

That said I do need to find some time at some point to hop on and see if it is too good haha 🤣. Anyone test it yet?

[rare mason]

By Zerk build completely underclassed by BoF - but again with very limited options as keep isnt ported in a mirror

[rare mason]

Also, Gunnr exists for Ursa. ANd mimics also. I never really payed attention to DEF/RES as it never made a difference for me

[viscid pawn]

Def/res makes a huge difference. Gunnr is fine m2 on magic is low m1 is usually high. Defense matters though

[viscid pawn]

Only for high anguish then you die so easy because no def or res. Zerks make a huge diff on damage. Can also use 2 of the 3 easily while bof too. Raw damage increase on first 2 is higher than redline. Also if you are redlining bof dursa you are going to die to a light breeze

[rare mason]

where does defense matter ootside of PvP? never banked on it, never needed it.

[viscid pawn]

But yea it is why people generally dont use snotra but lots of people use gunnr. Snotra is for meme hits only but you tend to die most the time. Gunnr... really doesnt have much consequence to use usually. But even that sometimes does so just gotta pick the battles. I 0 out tower fall on floor 50 and raid ults on most raids, unless it is a magic one and im using gunnr then it tickles my ward and does little else.

[viscid pawn]

Dungeons, especially horde anguish. Endless. Stronger raids, especially when anguished.

Def and res makes it easy and when ya still hit hard every turn the tiny bit extra from bof isnt that important. Especially if i can dual wield for massive damage and ignore ward. Or use a 2h with trevs with good ward and a little less damage but still being high

BoF is a lot stronger for pvp really

[rare mason]

Endless is the only thing i can agree on. Currently running mel18 & ago16, all Ward. Def always underperformed, also im cucking myself of gunnr then

[rare mason]

Do you have an example build? I've never ever heard of a def/res build before^^"

[viscid pawn]

Really? Since all the anguish bonuses are m2 not m1 on raids. Seen people 0 high anguish raids on OL channel using deity and in 1.0 anguish the highest anguish towers anyone ran was using def/ward build not bof

[viscid pawn]

Just having some at all is enough. Dont need to go all in. Especially as deity

But I have 0ed out berserk rs in anguish 50 1.0 and berserk beo while still killing them in 1 hit

[rare mason]

can you give me a link? I never heard of that! :D

[viscid pawn]

1.0 but isnt very hard ill go fish the ss back up. Was years ago 😉

Did it as heretic even for a while with windtamer shield. Dara made it easy tho

Dursa guarding strikes 4 with aoe buff was doing it too for a while but the aoe buff got hard nerfed. Now have to do a bit more for it

New anguish also has more hp than old so need more damage now, but there is also anguish on gear so prob can do it with less powerful gear now

But ya prob never heard of it since you ignored def/res. Def/res was pretty known to be crazy strong for years as deity, but got nerfed in pvp (not pve) and people started ignoring it since

[viscid pawn]

Adornments are all diff but just using something like this and running defense buffs. Was doing it more as dara and heretic though. Could so similar with dursa too though. Hybrid weapon would be better and using tempest and omnimancy spells. Phoenix for pet or themis. Deity didnt need dex so the main difference for heretic was using Fey Surtr legs for the dex since that mattered in 1.0. Made 1.0 anguish easy, chill and fast since tempest op. Ran as DoF spec for extra turns

Haven't done it in 2.0 since aoe crit is easy and my anguish isnt high enough to be a challenge on the new one. So yel aoe works just fine for me with presents for arch-alch

So yea def/res builds work great. Also this was boss horde which isnt required for proofs anymore. Before I used the gadget sometimes I would get a debuff that would allow them to hit me a little, but never anything close to enough to kill. Swapped it on for qol. And no need to clear debuffs from my buffing part. Buff phase doesnt take long either if ya worried about that 😉

So yea could do this just the same but easier with the new passive since you reach it faster and if ya run crit you can do i a recharge amity and such. Provided this specific build you can drain mana to 0 and just use tempest, I liked being able to still cast. Also dara was able to 0 with this from 10 ALs on. Heretic needed 55. And before 0ing magic users, they hit like a wet napkin anyways since low m2. Def is the most important part since those attacks are low m1 high m2. Really kill low def people

Gilgy was actually the hardest one to 0 though of physical damage. But them and beo usually use a buff first, so just hit them then. Didnt even use zerk 1 also, just 2 and only when it was free. Now a beast chest with high anguish will have higher def than this morri robe and will give zerk 1.

Berserk rs could hit if I let it redline, so I just killed it one shot. 🙂 turns out old zerk rs could not survive 200k slap to the face. But even when i was messing around testing stuff and didnt kill it it didnt do enough to kill me either. Could do it with redline too but then statuses are a danger and it is just more annoying

[rare mason]

i seemed to still always die fast when i used something like this with golems barrier and DC xD

[viscid pawn]

Just needed 10k def. So lots of gold pins :p

And doin something wrong then if ya were. It needing more def cataphract helps a good bit. Lose speed of DoF but that 10% base stats boost on deity is not small

Also zerk 2 makes a big diff

Dursa would need a hybrid weapon tho so wouldnt get it for free. Then I would run my hybrid amity and still use tempest. Or could go guarding strikes. Still is decently strong

Just threw some stuff together on 0 AL dursa the other day and did this. Low anguish tho but it is 0 AL. Crit chance a little low on the Viper seal one tho since I was doing the rs2 on that build and testing both. Went bof with rend/epee too and it was too squishy so if I missed an enemy and didnt get a turn I took a lot of damage.

Provided i didnt have ruby on these so zerks were draining me to a little redline on guarding strikes

So would be a little weaker with change on that hit but when I get a good beguiled lute x and use that at higher AL, the zerks get stronger than the redline. Redline is particularly strong for 0 AL tho

I did basic attack ones too with scythe but ig didnt snap ss... did good damage. Losing like what 80/90% ish damage from turning them aoe

Basic attack one also scales m1 by buffs so zerks raise its m1 to insane degree too

With that apex buff to turn attacks aoe any on hit effects are applied per enemy too so ward of light is really funny. 18% ward per enemy hit XD

Paladin dursa!

That said it also makes ss3 take 30% ward per enemy too

BoF does hit very well though. Just squishy. Take 0 damage on hits from most enemies on the non-swash and BoF literally every melee weak enemy can drop 15k-60k of my hp

At this anguish rs2 is outperformed by strike 3 spells vs berserk enemies. So higher up im sure rs2 falls off

Because no ALs tho and no good recharge amity... was struggling for mana lol. Recharge amity would be that % regen per enemy too on strike 3 spells and tons of ward turns and hp regen

Using hybrid amity for all but the 2h

Is an amazing amity tho

[rare mason]

im inclined to try that now.
Im currently using ara for dungeons, base for open world & towers and ursa for raiding

[viscid pawn]

Yea it is really fun! Haven't used it much in a while so I was trying to see if it is still good. It worked great 👍 wears off quick tho is only issue

[clever kindle]

Is this still available?

Oh wait nevermind 😞

[viscid pawn]

No sadly I got it a while back. Think there is a ward turns/hybrid up tho

[rare mason]

i got a ward turns / Pet block from Memory Titan uwu

[viscid pawn]

That is awesome

[rare mason]

I can now ALMOST outperform BeoH PvP def.

[viscid pawn]

Yea no deity isnt as good at pvp haha. Pretty much counting on sc 80% redline for pvp.

[rare mason]

PvP is oneshot or be oneshot. If youre not having SC, ur a bad PvP class. Thats why BeoH is easily SS tier for the SC and pet block.

[viscid pawn]

Wish deity was stronger in pvp. Would make it more fun to fight them. But high m1 abilities and (the needed) def nerfs for longer pvp battles made deity go down a lot in effectiveness

[viscid pawn]

Yea haha tho they cant proc sc twice >: D collateral damage!

I have had heretics get 2 tho and I just watch as I just gave them 75% blueline for their attack

But yea pet block is amazing so there is that. And hybrid monster

If the new passive worked in pvp that would honestly make deity more relevant in pvp 😄

[rare mason]

5/10% double SC for 10% base Pet Block that can be increased?
ANY DAY man.

[rare mason]

Heretics for some reason have a much higher chance for double SC.
Can we just remove double SC instead of steadfest for deity?
Double SC shouldnt even exist.

[viscid pawn]

50% chance for first anf 25% chance for second sc. 12.5% total chance for both

[viscid pawn]

Yea i agree. Or rename it. It isnt 3rd chance

[rare mason]

it always feels like 5% on me and 20% on my arch nemesis so its kinda where i got my numbers xD

[viscid pawn]

Idk how far they tested it but it was a big thing years ago where people had said defensive passives have a little boost for AI in pvp? I didnt even try to verify that tho but it does kinda feel like it often haha

Fighting Tadaa in settlements... she got 2 on soooo many of those fights XD

But I could just be unlucky haha

Forgot which channel it was in but one of the (devs think it was Dangy? If ya see this Dangy and it was one of the others please correct me lmao of if it changed 🤣) had said it halves in chance years ago for another proc. Idk if it changed since then.

[rare mason]

i dont see a reason for SC to exist in the first place, even lesser for dual procs.

[clever kindle]

It’s one of those things that’s cool for pve, but not really all that great for PvP

[viscid pawn]

I mean it is cool lol 😆 but 2 procs is crazy. Makes things less consistent, which i like being able to make my builds consistent so ill never rely on it, but it is a cool thing and this game is all based around chance.

[static wedge]

Are you referring to base beo? Beo/BeoA get a free 12% protect, but BeoH loses that passive entirely.

[viscid pawn]

Let's not be pushing for sc removal 👀

[viscid pawn]

Ah did they lose it entirely? Not just lower chance? Well that explains why they dont block me much

Yea anyone can get high pet block pet on and 7% amity(or 2 with oracle :p) for good block 😄

[static wedge]

Yeah BeoH gets no free follower protect, but the ones that do get no SC.

[viscid pawn]

Fair lol. And while they can use calls, generally pvp is first turn damage XD

Would rather test my chances finishing first turn than getting a 30% boost to it with jord 2

And in defense... well ya prob didnt get the turn at all unless ya got sc proc and now dont have a pet to block for ya XD

So basically, they have far weaker defense. Tho high hp is nice. But gursa and dursa then for tank

[nova wraith]

I'm a little late on this, but it is worth noting that over a few hours of fighting 1-hit KO defenders, I ran some numbers and I had about a 22% turn 1 survival rate ... on a build that gives me an 89% chance. I wouldn't be surprised if offenders got a nerf over defenders.

[past cobalt]

Progress on mirror requests! I'm so close. Then I'll be able to upgrade my items again 😂

[viscid pawn]

Yea that is what I have heard from enough people that I think it is probable. I have been too lazy to keep track to put into definite numbers haha. Ty for that 🙂 definitely has felt like it but that is more concrete. That parapet, pet block with sc?

Would make sense tbh since attacker has a huge advantage otherwise. Esp since AI isnt that smart

[nova wraith]

Yep. Six pet block amity (because that's what I have on a crit amity), 20% parapet, Coral follower, and Second Chance.

[viscid pawn]

Dang nice 👌

Lol what would be funny is stacking yel chest for more parapet chance 🤣

Since they roll separately 20% chance on amity and 25% chance on chest ends up roughly 40% parapet chance 😂

[viscid pawn]

Well im an idiot. Forgot I re-augmented my hybrid lute so the one using guarding strikes above is using new memory hunt augments not selene hands like I meant to use on that lute... just looked at it to see what quality selene hands i had on it and saw this 😂😂😂

[nova wraith]

I thought it worked a bit differently from that. A friend of mine broke it down, I might have to ask.

[viscid pawn]

So expect more when you try that one lmao

[viscid pawn]

Best amity with parapet and then best boost from armor 🙂 both roll separately. Anything that has proc chance rolls separate on here except a couple things like ashen rubies (they used to a long time ago but it was op to have a bunch for more chances to heal) and pet block since it isnt a chance on its own but rather boosting a stat on your pet:)

Cant stack 2 amities tho

But I am starting to derail a bit from beta comparison now 🤣

[icy cloak]

Odie said it isn’t a separate roll but the lower percentage health and the higher percentage chance

I.E a 25% chance at 100% of HP and 20% chance at 95% of HP becomes a 25% chance at 95% of HP

And that two amities would work the same so -

20% chance at 95% HP and 5% chance at 50% HP becomes 20% at 50% HP

[viscid pawn]

Best of each. Gear and amity. Tested a lot and it definitely works in live

2 amities with parapet will do best then else. Hundreds of AI challenges vs someone with and without yel chest paired with 20% amity and with yel chest the rate was roughly 40%

Could be a bug, but it has been working like this for a while

People have also tried yel chest with a 5%/50% hp amity and it did not do the 25% chance for 50% damage attacks, 25% still was only going for the full 100% hp damage hits. I didnt personally test that one though

But 2 amities wont both roll

Was specifically testing if it is a good way for dorito class to get close to a second chance ability. Tho it wont redline them XD

But anyways this is off topic so if anyone wants to talk further about this @ me somewhere else 🙂 or dm me. I kinda put some off topic here already when I went off on a tangent XD (deity stuff is for reference to the changes tho so even tho that is borderline i wanted to show that redline isnt really needed for pve 😁)

[rare mason]

Can you show me the full equip? Btw also in private if you want i dont wanna hijack beta discussion again

[past cobalt]

Can the sandbox inventory be updated? It gets no items from Yelmogus, Zagreus, Mnemosyne, Dullahan

[faint estuary]

I think a summary post of “where we are now” written by the audio for the various threads would be useful. Let’s the community know what is and isn’t being considered, and what we should be focusing on testing

[azure python]

#1362045053857435850

[faint estuary]

Those seem to be the initial objectives mostly and a summary of what was proposed

[azure python]

It's our state of play currently, you can couple that with https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1437849816523866222 to understand a general sense of focus areas

[past cobalt]

Me waiting for mirror
https://tenor.com/view/tinder-my5n5-kermit-gif-24133413

[keen mango]

Same here my friend, same here

[rare mason]

Hype is real.
Tho the oldest feature is exploration, which still does'nt give travelers guild exp for taken areas

[azure python]

Appreciate not pinging - mirrors are up to date

[past cobalt]

Amazing, now we just need the technology to obtain Bone Mammoth in the beta

[jagged delta]

At least I just realized that you can buy the pets from ALL events in just 1 bestiary, as long you can buy them in bestiaries at any event (but not the special ones from guilds etc). So 5 min later I had 186 pets 😁

[keen mango]

Thanks Dangy!

[edgy geode]

were there hints when the next beta update comes?

[waxen lagoon]

soon tm

[rare mason]

Every day stasis gets nerfed is a good day!
How do we feel about the status effect changes?

[past cobalt]

Wow. Huge

[rare mason]

Statis needs a bit more reduction; but this is a win overall. Debuffs beeing less of a nuisance is a gamechanger. This means classes without steadfest are'nt as dependant on immunity gear. Also Stasis not beeing a free cheating tool as much anymore for summoners and beos (that both get buffs this beta) is an absolute win.

[past cobalt]

Can we take this opportunity to add in some hidden text to some of these status effects? Frozen and Stunned should mention that they make attacks hit you 100% of the time

On paper frozen just looks strictly worse than paralyzed for example

[rare mason]

Also lets add windswept and all the others missing...

Nvm windswept got added

Then the blights, tower buffs, etc.

[river mural]

A baguette would cause frozen to have a 100% chance to fade right?

[rare mason]

I need to show you something that almost made we wrote an entirely wrong answer

[rare mason]

No, the baguette prevents frozen alltogether.

(this thing is old. I can't believe i remembered it.)

[river mural]

I really wish you had put all different colored gems in there

[rare mason]

That was 6 years ago i only had randomly generated gems back then, and the DoT gems

[soft oxide]

I see the changes to Miss turn chance Bad, I mean is good for Players, but now status effects are weaker in PvE

The change was only made because of deity, it was never considered before for Realm or.... idk other class that struggles as much with Status effects

[waxen lagoon]

Hahah removing steadfast for diety and nerfing status at the same time

[icy cloak]

I’m not a fan for PvP purposes. I understand the QoL in PvE this brings

For PvP, statuses are one of the few ways newer t10s have a shot at taking settlements from Gilga(s), Deity(s), BeoH and RSD.

The further the gap to the top grows, the more people there either forget or ignore what it is like to enter the world of level 225-250 settlements 😵‍💫

[rare mason]

Can we just turn it into a PvE exclusive change them?
I completely love it.
(Tho stasis to 80% seems fair overall, still too high stun chance)

[rare mason]

I cant anymore DX
We get something nice, anything.
Community: "Deity broken!"

BEOWULF EXISTS

[young cobalt]

Deities got steadfast back again

[mortal pawn]

Yeah not a huge fan of reduced status

[icy cloak]

At the beginning of t10 Deity felt OP because of dex in PvP but sucked at pretty much everything else. Many many things added and reworked later:

Horde Dungeons: Deity was/is pretty much the top especially as more AoE ways were added

ALs: Deity, Beo, and Gilga get the most mileage out of them by having “two” (or three) offense stats

Celestials: Deity celestials specialize in some content to the extreme with little tradeoff (I can’t hit endless floor 500 in farming gear at AL0 with RSC or HSC like on Deity)

Brilliant Lights II: Deity gets at least as much mileage out of it as glass cannons

I understand the complaints of feeling like other classes get buffed or do things faster, I really do. I played Deity almost exclusively until the Heretic rework came out, but it has historically been at the top many times. It hasn’t been waaaaay over the top IMO but it has definitely had too much going for it.

And that has been made even more clear to me as I continue to try out and play other classes more.

Personally, the beta changes look like a solid power dispersion and a return to more of the jack of all trades style that originally drew me to the class

[young cobalt]

Here's a list of status effect changes for those curious

Status Effect "Miss turn chance" Changes

• Blight: 25% -> 15%
• Drenched: 5% -> 1%
• Frozen: 40% -> 20%
• Lulled: 20% -> 5%
• Paralyzed: 25% -> 20%
• Stasis: 90% -> 80%
• Stunned: 50% -> 30%
• Toxic: 10% -> 0%

[lament wind]

I’m going to miss playing assassin in PVP…

[rare mason]

To me it seems a bit rough - if just nerfs came, but other classes did got buffs. So, i'll see how it goes.

[rare mason]

Asassin could get a buff on taking turns, for example. Or realm in general, as its the dot class

I do think for PvE its an amazing change that makes it less frustrating.

I never experienced anything but mutual oneshotting and the only PvP mechanic i feel is worthwhile is SC so i cant speak for how it would affect PvP.
I dont play Finesse PvP as its hell and the most depressing content in the game for me, so also cant give an opinion there.

Just with those rates i would consider playing a class without steadfest.

[young cobalt]

Any chance the price for followers and summons from natureblight event can be reduced in beta for testing?

[soft oxide]

Towerfall + stasis is great on Beo, now eliminate stasis and Beo becomes way weaker

[soft oxide]

You're forgetting that in PvE the change to status effects affects the Miss turn chance of the enemies too

[fickle furnace]

cool buff for ASG

Troll aside, it's great change for every players (especially lower tier ones), statuses will no longer be too oppressive.
I don't think it was necessary to diminish Toxic and Drenched, they didn't have much Turn Missing chance to begin with.
Stasis however could take a higher nerf.

On a less bright side, the status builds are less interesting, especially in PvP where 90% of opponents are immune because of their build, and you usually win by guessing which status they aren't.
This nerf will diminish greatly the rates of winning.

I would recommend to complete this change with a conversion of Status Immunities to 100% Status Resistance of a specific Status.

[granite robin]

So statuses get nerfed??? Hopefully this is part of bigger change on how we can use statuses. The only place i used statuses was on aaru viper build and now its nerfed

[granite robin]

Rip aaru viper....

[midnight kernel]

Thank you for the summary 🙏

That uh, seems like a fairly large reduction across the board. Which is, in my eyes:

• Great for early-game and mid-game players that dont have much status immunity/resistance. Much less likely to get stalled in fights against some of the more obnoxious mobs.
• Bad for early-game and mid-game that utilizes these statuses to give them an edge against harder bosses (that arent just straight up immune).
  so in all... probably more good than bad?

personally though, I'm sad to see them reduced as much as they are. I use statuses a lot to make up the gap in power when doing Horde Dungeons (I can't 1-shot) and Area Exploration fights against T8+ mobs. More RNG praying for me.

[granite robin]

Aaru viper was good pvp follower. Not anymore.

I realy hope that odie has bigger plans for statuses..

[granite robin]

Yes status builds in general arent very tanky. So if the only 1 status that ypur enemy is not immune.. gets reduced this hard... you are doomed.

I would understand this change if odie has plans on taking statuses into raiding builds. But nerfing already struggling pvp play style... just kills things

Also i would understand this if odie planed on heavily reducing immunities on gears

(Ymir vritra, awnn ring etc)

[past cobalt]

I would hazard a guess that most people just don't like statuses

[granite robin]

But there still is quite alot players that do like the playstyle in pvp. Not on other content bc its not possible bc stacked immus

This kills alot of variety in pvp builds

[granite robin]

That destroys pvp. You lose your only protection if your enemy is smart enough to run even few immus. The math literally says you died

For examble enemy with ymir and briny accessories. ( no immunity to frozen was very nice bc you still had 40% chance to survive while also doing dmg with burn)

[past cobalt]

Variety? I disagree, I think being forced to try to account for debilitating status effects because of cheesy builds is not really engaging gameplay or variety-inducing

[granite robin]

This just makes rest of us to go ss, verse etc

Statuses were already on the weak side on pvp now they just wont exist

[past cobalt]

Pushing one build out of the meta does not necessarily decrease diversity. Statuses could be hindering other strategies that might be able to perform better without having to run 2-4 immunity pieces

[granite robin]

Statuses are not hindering anything but ignorance

Idk if you have ever tried how statuses work in pvp but it would be refreshing to try so you see my point.

[past cobalt]

The gameplay of coinflipping to try to cheese my opponent out of their turns is not appealing to me

[granite robin]

There is no point to continue this with you. Have a awesome day ❤️

[past cobalt]

You are welcome to your opinion just like I am welcome to mine 👍

[icy cloak]

I understand the lack of appeal to some but that was (and is) the only way to beat some people who have an armada of ALs or are much higher level than you. And considering the amount of time it takes to do if it even works in the first place, I don’t think that is a bad thing

Again, PvE wise I think this is fine. PvP though this is one more option to punch up that is getting nerfed. Yes, some builds might function better without running status immunity but the prevalence of immunities on some of the BiS or close to pieces already makes me think this is unlikely (or more of a super min-max

[safe axle]

Status builds in PvP will still be viable imo, the stacking of status will still pretty much perma lock the opponent, and sleep and petrify are still 100%.
Also, this is mostly a disagrement for PvP AND only for status build. This represent a crazy tiny population of players.

PvE wise it is more than welcome for everybody imo. I hear XPless argument finding an edge with lock from status, but i think it is also counterbalanced by the fact it might also save him the same way.

[icy cloak]

Unless we are getting ways to pierce immunities I don’t see Sleep and Petrify as particularly viable options outside of being used against Heretic, GS and RS who can’t afford to run immunities while having a shot and penetrating ward builds

But it is just beta. We can test. No need to doom and gloom (including from me)

[granite robin]

Sleep and petrify are also easily immuned

[past cobalt]

By committing both accessory slots? I wouldn't classify that as "easily"

[granite robin]

They are available in other slots aswell

[past cobalt]

In very niche/non-synergistic items, yeah. I don't want to be forced to run Nightbreak staff

Debilitating status effects are an oppressive force when they succeed; this isn't enjoyable on the receiving end and contorting builds to avoid them is also unfun

[icy cloak]

“I don’t want to worry about statuses.” Is a fine opinion. So equip immunities- this keeps some min-maxing builds in check in PvP while also providing small and unreliable counters to other unwise unkillables

There are many immunity slots on plenty of useable and used pieces of gear in several slots not to mention plenty of status resistance to equip on similarly used/useable gear 🤷🏽‍♂️

Again, PvE? This is fine. PvP this is a bigger change than the non-PvP-ers might realize

[young cobalt]

For how wildly available/common blight it having 25% miss turn rate was a lot imo and had people (at least from my personal experience) running briny pendant in a huge amount of PvE/PvP 9/10 times, 25% -> 15% is a welcome change personally (mainly PvE wise)

Though I can definitely see the worry, you can look at the other way and catch more people not running immunities thinking they're not as strong

One specifically I feel was unnecessary though is Toxic, should still have a 10/15% turn miss imo as currently it's not different than "Cursed"

[past cobalt]

Find me something usable on Heretic that isn't Nightbreak staff/ankou ring for sleep, and Aegis/vritra charm for petrify

[young cobalt]

Crook and Flail

[icy cloak]

I make semiregular use of these pieces in PvP related stuff 😅

Also my Ashen Phoenician Gear and staves adorned with Gorgon Eyes

I also use the accessories and enjoy bringing pets with Cleanse

[granite robin]

There is alot options.. just ppl dont want to use them bc their min max might not be min max then

[icy cloak]

That’s not fair to say. Disliking statuses taking turns away is something I think everyone hates when it happens to them.

I do understand how much losing a turn sucks, but there is gear out there and probably more on the way

[granite robin]

Heres examble of min maxed status chance vs just a sf2

[past cobalt]

I asked for Heretic

[icy cloak]

Corvus isn’t Heretic? You asked for useable pieces excluding the easiest to use pieces and I found you some that I use

[granite robin]

Stat downs dont matter much, but also if i happened to proc blight or toxic. I would have chance to survive next hit 35% on live? And on beta 20%

Or paralyze with 20%

[past cobalt]

Not in this context. I'd be forced to use a specific class in addition to a specific item for pvp

[icy cloak]

Okay but you still have 3 pieces there useable by anyone 🤷🏽‍♂️

[past cobalt]

I'm also not going to equip a t3 summonerr head

[granite robin]

So you prefer to just destroy one full playstyle so you dont need to sligthly adjust your gear choices

[icy cloak]

Stop with the scorched earth wording please SoO, Phil has stated that he dislikes statuses and that is his opinion

[granite robin]

Alright

[past cobalt]

"Slightly adjust" means using a tier 3 benefactor headpiece? Or using a specific celestial so I can equip a bad chestplate?

[granite robin]

Its trickster btw

[icy cloak]

I understand the opinion, but I’m trying to show why I don’t think that the opinion should be across all of PvP

And that other options do exist

[still sky]

Don't forget the Bedsheet for sleep!

[icy cloak]

I said these are things I use 😂 😂

[granite robin]

I actually have bedsheet saved bc that

[past cobalt]

My point is that immunity pieces are not "widely available" and free to use as has been implied

[icy cloak]

Mmmm but you excluded the ones everyone has - and Avalon King Crown from Arthus is everywhere if people farm for it

[past cobalt]

Idk what the wolven hood is a reskin of, but it is wholly unsuitable for heretic. As are the slippers, though marginally better

It's unreasonable to say "well you should wear this once a year event item that has horrible stats in your pvp loadout so you can be immune to sleep :)"

[still sky]

The problem with gear as the answer to status effects is giving up vital parts of a build, even with Steadfast.

Recent gear for Heretics is required to make better use of our Flasks. That gear is squishy with no immunities on it. It's a very poor trade for us, at least.

Being immune to Toxic doesn't mean much in the face of another Blood Ray user or SS.

Otherwise... Let me stop here and farm another 100+ ALs so I can spam Magic Scythe since I don't have a follower or summon to kill for me.

[past cobalt]

In fact, I will choose to fall prey to sleep right now - good night y'all

[granite robin]

Well status effects need fully invest to even function well (leaving you very weak to steadfast/immunitiea)

[past cobalt]

50% proc rate of a typically 15% proc chance when vs a steadfast 2 class is not "very weak to steadfast" btw

[granite robin]

Thats literally just vs a steadfast

The dude was not running stat res or immus in general

50%vs naked is kinda low

[past cobalt]

You have over 100% proc chance for any skill with a base proc of 15% through assassin gear. Steadfast is giving them a coinflip chance instead of guaranteed turn loss

Use a sleep dart next time

[granite robin]

And that is compeletly fine that steadfast makes harder procs. But nerfing already weak is bad move

[sterile topaz]

Any news about when the iOS beta might become available?

[viscid pawn]

But... perma stasis A. Morri as assassin heretic was how I killed her! And as GS XD stasis, pets attack! Lol 🤣

[fickle furnace]

Either all status can be inflicted, either none

[viscid pawn]

Oh! No worries it is very cheesy. It is how I was killing t10 players as a t8 summoner years ago. Defeated 100 AL deity and 50 AL heretic at my base with assassin summoner using nag belts.

[fickle furnace]

Stasis has been a cheese way to defeat strongest Raids since the integration of Time Mage and Chronomancer

[viscid pawn]

But thid one was funny using offhand for lacuna

Tho chrono with nag belts also did it really well

Offhand low tier one (think it was the wand?) Gives the single target but higher proc rate of stasis attack

Also did stasis gs in endless too once but got bored and stopped

Level 225 Gs and I went as far as my summons could hurt enemies. VSS summon didnt exist yet tho so I did have times they ended up hitting 0 lol 😆 but I think 400 floors 0 ALs is respectable

Took forever tho

But anyways point is, assassin builds pretty much negate anything but immunity with stacking assassin bonuses and you can get tons of statuses to apply from ele, weapon, adornments, offhand etc

They are slow tho so kinda annoying to use since your damage is terrible and the trade off is fhat if you take territory like that, you are gonna be slow

Also use a never miss attack like perfect shot or bolt 4 for the procs

But that said, dont really think the builds are op or anything. Think this is supposed to be a qol for pve update. Status builds usually die first turn in defense and take forever on offense making claiming territory slow and tedious.

[granite robin]

Yea like i said. Nerfing the weak is already a bad move.

[faint estuary]

Stasis should never have even been a thing. It completely warps how higher difficulty content is played

[granite robin]

Agreed

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1439057301435842662

I posted a suggestion on how we could fix statuses

[icy cloak]

https://tenor.com/view/kronk-point-debate-argument-angel-gif-17274775

In party play as a limited and difficult option I think it could be neat but cheesing raids and PvE, I definitely agree

[rare mason]

Completely broken*
We nerf deity, but we ignore that that, we even buff it? Nah, making stasis at least reasonable sounds lile a fair decision. Discourage the degenerate strategy and enable more flexibility

[rare mason]

Could you please explain that?

[rare mason]

Fully on you with drenched and toxic. They are rare and should mean something.
Stasis does need an adjustment - how much would you say?
I would reduce the chance but make it easier to apply.

[rare mason]

To me, status effects felt lile they were always underwhelming against monsters, because most things are immune anyway, and the time spent in the part of the game where nothing is immune (you dont count, restrained one) is very very short.

DoT status effects now no longer get massively outshines by turn breakers. Its great.

I would'nt mind making chances to take a monster turn higher then a player turn, this is entirely about not going insane with DoTs for me.

[crisp oxide]

Given the reduction some of the others got, stasis can definitely be hit down further imo

[rare mason]

PvP is oneshotting or getting oneshotted imo. The best PvP passives are SC and Petblock, anything else wont matter as you're not going to use it in defense, or your enemy. I dont see this as dooming PvP. I cant recall a pvp battle in the past 3 years that lasted more then 4 turns that i was involved in. I really cannot share the sentiment in a world with bloodray, Spiked Shield, BoF in general, Rend / Epee, Prom Hands, Ultima vs Deity etc etc.

[granite robin]

Status effects were basicly pvp only

Sleep= 10% chance to stop action and increases each turn by 10% caps at 10 stacks. 5% reduction in dex each stack( starts as drowsy)
Frozen= chill 10% chance to stop turn ( caps at 10 ) and then turns into frozen 100% chance to stop turn, and takes 50% more crit dmg ( fades once dmged)
Burn = 2,5% dmg per tick and reduces 5% of offencive stats (increases each turn if not cleansed. Caps at 10 stacks)
Rot = same but reduces def/res^
Stunned= 20% chance and might also stop pet action
Blind = reduces accuracy by 10% each stack ( caps 10)
Cursed = reduces max ward and max hp by 5% each stack and increases each turn( 10 stack)
Windswept= reduces crit% by 5% each turn ( caps at 10 stacks)
Bleed = deals 2,5% dmg each tick and stacks to 10. Also reduces healing effectiveness by 5% each stack
Stasis= has 5%( stacks into 50%) chance to stop turn and makes enemy actions cost+1 turn
Poison= 1% dmg (stacks)( has 15% chance to turn into toxic if not cleansed)
Toxic =3% dmg per stack and has 1%chance to stop action per stack.

Heres raw examble how i would change statuses

"Acting as scaling threath"

[rare mason]

In my experience, Counter II usually takes care of the vast majority of them. My winrate is higher then with status builds even.

[rare mason]

I like the general idea. Turning statuses into something you have to take care of instead of beeing a way too high tread instantly.

[granite robin]

Yup! Also this examble does not have all statuses so there could be more unique effects

Drenched could be turn stopper that makes you take more storm dmg etc

Also this way statuses could be welcomed in raiding aswell

[rare mason]

#EndPetrifySpam

[sterile topaz]

@rare mason How much does your BoF SS hit for?

[icy cloak]

Let’s make Raids immune to Stasis and Petrify

[rare mason]

200k, after the nerf probably 140k, but thats fine, my Rend / Epee etc does more

[sterile topaz]

Hmmm

Yeah, no Dorado with less than 100AL is surviving that. Only one I've seen with that kind of hp was Bordoadas before he HoC, but I haven't really seen any other Dorados with that many (he had 100-120k hp or so, iirc)

Maybe if they go hard on hp and def, though

[granite robin]

I was thinking how i would rework petrify...
10% turn stop per stack (100% at max) takes 8% less dmg each stack (+80% dmg resistance at full)

[dusty grail]

That won't work, beoa would just love to be petrified.

unless statuses FINALLY stop pet turn. This one is such an outlier. Why is beo allowed to attack when stunned ?

[granite robin]

This change is raid focused

Beo cant self cast petrify on itself and no one would be foolish enough to do that in pvp

[granite robin]

I mean why is other players allowed ?

And basicly beo does not attack

[dusty grail]

I consider pet attack as beo attack. if the beo has his turn skipped, his pet should not be able to move.

[granite robin]

And if pets would not be allowed to act due turn stop. Cleansing/curing pet would not make sense anymore

And this kind of change would affect all classess

[dusty grail]

it can still cleanse the turn you're not skipped (especially now with nerfed skip values) so it's not useless.

[granite robin]

If you are sleeping or petrified or stasised. No you wont

Or if you are stacked with differend statuses. No you wont be cured if you skip turn. You literally have to wait untill one fades or you maybe get turn

[dusty grail]

or panacea, like everyone else. barely anyone use cleanse pet, it's not an excuse to keep pets act on skip.

[granite robin]

You wont panacea in pvp

Or while confused

You do realize that this would make beo much stronger?

Bc beo has access to lots of immu gear. Other classess sacrefice alot to build for immunity. Having your pet to not clean statuses bc turn stop would do more harm to you than it does for beo

Beo usually has immu gear already so turn stoppers are not issue

Real issue would be on other classes being stuck bc pets wont save anymore

[dusty grail]

Beo can completely ignore cleanse pet because it will attack anyway.
Other classes would have to pick a cleanse pet, and best case scenario is sphinx kit with 50% chance but without AI so he can still attack. But let's say it is 50% chance. So other classes have to sacrifice there pet for one that'll be useless 90% of the time and Beo don't sacrifice anything.
And you call that balanced.

[granite robin]

But if you are sleeping both of you will sleep. Sphinx and you. So no cleanse( same for petrify)

If you want statuses to stop pet turns. You have to accept the fact that it will affect all classess with pets. Bc making this change only affect beo would make 0 sense

[waxen lagoon]

I dont understand why players want status to be nerfed in pvp, aint pvp meta and gameplay not stale and monotonous enough that you actually wanted to nerf something unique?

[granite robin]

Yea its weird but ppl want to press 1 and same button i quess

[dusty grail]

I don't give a shit about PvP. It could be removed from the game I wouldn't care

[waxen lagoon]

that is something I can agree.

there is so much problem with pvp that it deserve its own discussion

[granite robin]

I personally would love to see a status effect rework instead of this hard nerf

[dusty grail]

it's always hell to balance PvP in a PvE focused game, especially with a small team who don't have a PvP dedicated specialist.

[granite robin]

I personally like ornas pvp (bof and conq)

And honestly orna's pvp and gps mechanic is why i am playing this game. If there was no territories or pvp i would not be here( not sure if its bad or good )

[icy cloak]

And infinite scaling. Can’t forget that one lol

[sterile topaz]

Team with no pvp dedicated skills, where’s that even coming from?

[dusty grail]

It's neither bad nor good. But it's by no mean a competitive and balance pvp environment. And rightfully so, pvp in not the thing most people are looking for when they install Orna. It's just a side quest which is appreciated by a handful of people. I just hope it's not limiting pve development (as in how the game grow, not the actual developer work) and gameplay options.

[dusty grail]

Bigger companies have people which are dedicated to pvp balance. Orna has 1 Odie. He can't be everywhere. (skills as in dedicated dev proficiency, not ingame skills)

[sterile topaz]

So you’re talking about them not having members of the team solely dedicated to PvP balance, not about the actual team having 0 pvp skills, which is what you implied. That’s different

[dusty grail]

I edited for clarity

[granite robin]

What do you think of scaling status effects that i suggested earlier. That would mostly affect pve in positive way.

[dusty grail]

I hate skip turns and how common they are, so obviously i'd like for it to scale like that. But doubt it would be balanced as Odie what it to be. It would also reduce the impact of that one class that can ignore skip turns altogether.

[midnight kernel]

There are a lot of niche immunities in the early-game. None of the tiers have a complete lack of status immunities among the monsters. Hell, T1 has a monster with Blight immunity.

And while I can certainly agree that statuses feel lackluster at times, the reduction we see here just makes it that much more so. Regardless of time in a tier, this greatly reduces the player-usability of player-saving/enemy-turn-skipping statuses in PvE.

DoTs weren't outshined by turn-stalls, they were assisted by them. As someone that has gone into a dungeon to get hit with numerous statuses at once, your health goes down fast when you don't have access to status cures.

I cannot say I am okay with making statuses explicitly stronger against monsters than players. It'd be an unintuitive shift between PvE and PvP for new players.

[granite robin]

I did suggestions about scaling statuses for each status. Numbers are not perfect, but you will get the idea

[static wedge]

Just to confirm, are the status changes across the board or PVP only?

If stasis is now 80% in pve then beo anguish raiding just took a massive (but justified) hit. Was hoping that the ward absorb malus was going to get trashed before this happened at least.

[jagged delta]

Currently, these are overall changed status effects

[jagged delta]

True, but you can still go back from TF/stasis to good old ASG raiding - given the buff from additive BB, I guess it will still be fine (and for ASG, weaker status effects are even a buff). Or maybe even TF with 1 epee? Unfortunately, I don't have enough shards in beta for prometheus, so I cannot test it.

[static wedge]

Both of those will work until low/mid 30 anguish where we are forced to take ward absorption malus, at which point follower raiding dies. We either can't redline (the damage boost factor that prevents us from being 0'd out) or we destroy our damage by attempting to cancel out the malus.

[lament wind]

It’s appealing to me. I think there should be more status effects to make players have to account for them. PVP is why I play.

[static wedge]

Beo anguish raiding was unfairly kept afloat by the abusive nature of stasis, but redlining is fundamentally broken with the ward malus. Everyone else gets forced to pay the mammoth tax, but follower raiding doesn't have that option.

Not trying to drag this off topic or sound too whiny as I agree that stasis needed to be slapped down, but I'd just like to see the problem factor that prevents redline classes from existing in anguish to be addressed as well if possible.

[faint estuary]

100% agree. The stasis change is warranted, but the ward absorption malus really warps high anguish play and should probably be looked at

[static wedge]

It kind of annoys me that this beta started off as "let's nerf deity a bit" and somehow turned into "let's mildly inconvenience deities and give beo anguish raiding a bone-shattering backhand"

[grave siren]

Instead of nerfing stasis to 20% act rate, how about make raids/mobs have scaling status resistance instead? From anguish 5 onwards, introduce (or make it innate like enemy stat scaling) raid/mob status resistance that eventually increases up to 80% status resistance (similar to elemental resistances) so that status debuffs in general and not just stasis become less reliable at deeper anguish. This way, early - mid game players who rely on stasis don't get screwed up while those that prefer a challenge can get what they want. This also follows the scaling themed difficulty of anguish.

[static wedge]

That was the thought of how it should have been handled, but it doesn't change the fact that ward absorption malus needs to be deleted.

At least directly with stasis, it shouldn't exist as a strategy in anguish.

[grave siren]

Yea, ward is basically another HP pool especially for redlining classes, take that away and redlining is basically impossible.

then you get hit with the "just don't go 1 HP redline lol" mentality lol

[static wedge]

It's not that it is basically impossible, it is completely impossible. We need redlining to keep up with boss defense stats... but by the time you are in agony 30 I can't see anyone surviving hits while at low enough redline to matter.

[grave siren]

Realmies at least have mystic feather when they redline, beos have increased damage but that doesn't matter if you're dead already

[static wedge]

It's an especially large problem because we only scale defensive stats in battle from... You guessed it, redlining.

[rare mason]

Beo getting a stasis nerf is amazing. Its still broken - but now a bit less.
...Which gets nullified by the BB buff and removal of clogging abilities

[grave siren]

my guy I think you're overestimating the value of BB

[static wedge]

With all due respect Rhayvenn: if you know nothing about beo anguish raiding, you shouldn't enter this conversation.

[past cobalt]

Does being asleep guarantee you get hit btw

[grave siren]

yes Phil

thats how T3 sleep + guts or lunge work at my settlements hehe

[past cobalt]

K. Btw the bestial bond buff IS huge, we've been seeing the screenshots from beta

[rare mason]

Its PvP. Its oneshotting. I dont ever did anything else. PvP is not rewarding enough to be fun - its not thought through enough to be fun. Its never balanced, regardless, and making it fun anywhere but finesse is extremely hard, and finesse is not fun cause of the houserules (artificial slowing of Combat flow).

I really dont understand how nerfing statuses would kill the oneshot meta

[grave siren]

if you can apply certain statuses like stun or sleep or stasis, you reduce the odds of being one-shot and opens up counterplay

[rare mason]

Okay, if you think this way i guess.

[static wedge]

Bonds do literally nothing for ASG and TF raiding now and in the future. The best this does is give us one option of raiding with TMM, which from my experience is a subpar ASG damage wise.

The issue is ward absorption malus. It needs to be acted on.

[grave siren]

I hope we're not glazing it tbh. Big numbers are nice but would also like to see it in action if it makes a significant enough difference.

Like, BB for ward pets might be huge especially with the added def/res and reducing clogging skills help them fulfil their purpose as ward pets etc, but what about BB for damaging pets like replicas or ASG, does another 3k damage to their mag make a significant (one less turn etc in terms of turn economy) difference to call it "big?"

[rare mason]

But you won't really get to it in PvP. I always had worse results with applying statuses instead of just oneshotting my opponent.

[grave siren]

that's fine if you have similar ALs or gear, but if you're up against opps that you can't oneshot or you have low ALs, then what? Status is accessible by almost everyone

[past cobalt]

Beo gets up to 15% total follower stats per anguish level on their 5 pieces of gear, plus their ALs scale multiplicatively with their follower stats. The fact that you can use stasis to completely ignore the raid while your follower nukes it is just the tip of the iceberg

[static wedge]

The bonds will definitely help damage, but our issue isn't damage. It's that beo raiding is held together with duct tape defensively as soon as ward malus drops in.

[rare mason]

When i fight against AL 261 Puntcuddle and i cant oneshot, i press SS3, hope i avoid pet block and SC.

If i dont kill oneshot, i pray on SC.

Then i either proc and win, or dont proc and lose.

And when im getting to annoyed with him, i buy the munchies and oneshot him for 30 mins

[static wedge]

Phil, are you even reading what I am typing?

[simple kraken]

RS is in the same camp with that malus too, correct?

[grave siren]

90% ignore, and now 80% chance to ignore.

[grave siren]

Not as much, you have mystic feather no?

[past cobalt]

I read it and chose not to respond, because it's not really the point. The bestial bond thing was a point brought up by someone else that I was providing data for

[river mural]

Yes, but that's not enough to not get tapped and die because of reduced ward absorption

[past cobalt]

You're trying to say that the class built around redlining is less affected by ward malus than beo?

[grave siren]

beo doesn't have mystic feather, realmies do

[past cobalt]

Mystic feather doesn't help you redline without 100% absorption

[grave siren]

brb lemme reread what mystic feather does, unless you mean getting to redline?

[past cobalt]

You may not understand how realmshifter redlines. Beo doesn't have to redline to function, and beo isn't trying to get to 1hp. Realmshifter is going to 1hp and not having 100% absorption means death

[rare mason]

Beo does not need redlining to have an easy time raiding. It only needs stasis, and now with the BB rework, its even less of a gamble to get hit regardless.

Beo gets enough with the 15% Pet stats + the BB rework, potential lining even if not on max, hybrid Monster, best Turn 1 damages in the game etc etc.

I agree ward malus is unfun, and that its not the way - generally anguish maluses only archieve a lack of build diversity and added costs whenever you try something new, they could be deleted if it was my choice.

[static wedge]

Yes beo has to redline to function, what? We're talking about deep anguish raiding, not smurfing kingdom raids.

Redline affects our follower's M1.

[past cobalt]

So does the follower stat% boosts from your anguished gear (and your ALs)

It's not comparable to Realmshifter

[young cobalt]

Check out here if you wanna see a BeoA run Mel20 (shackles off) dungeons with ton of follower stats, it's bad/not nearly as good as it looks on paper
#1437494599718404197 message

[grave siren]

BeoH raiding is NOT the same as Beo/A raiding mind you.
BeoH and any other BB1 class can benefit from defensive BB rework, even more with the skill clog unplug but beoA's hybrid monster comes from redlining.

[static wedge]

I'm not comparing anything to realmshifter, I'm just getting sick of this "just don't redline, bro" attitude that seems to pervade these discussions. "Just don't use your class's main mechanic, bro" is not an option.

[rare mason]

With Spiritgarm, not even towerfell.

Beo does NOT need redlining to function.

[grave siren]

that's 0 anguish xD

[static wedge]

...

[young cobalt]

BeoA is 100% trying to get to 1HP/has to redline to be anywhere close to successful in any content

[rare mason]

Wait, wrong video

[static wedge]

If your argument is "have a gear load out as good as abyss" then I'm not even going to bother listening.

[rare mason]

https://youtu.be/e7b5u_XRdu4?si=QdtAl2kYBAy5sinj

[young cobalt]

I urge you to go into the beta and test these things

[rare mason]

Its the wrong pet, its not optimized gear, its AL22 against anguish 41.

Dont listen all you want.

[young cobalt]

Wasn't this when Anguish gear was bugged/giving more pet stats than it was supposed to??

[rare mason]

As far as im aware that's a different video

[static wedge]

Aaand the video is "just use stasis".

[young cobalt]

Yeah this video is showing that stasis is the problem not BeoA

Get rid of stasis here and you're dead turn 2

[static wedge]

Yup, they have no idea and want to bash the Beo class.

[rare mason]

Yeah. Stasis is completely broken and devaluates any single target Fight for Beo & Summoner.

As long as stasis is broken, beo does'nt need lining, or anything.

[rare mason]

Sure. If thats what you wanna think. Be provocative all you want. ^^

[grave siren]

yeah no try dealing 1m dmg per turn on a 80m HP raid

[young cobalt]

Okay, so stasis is getting a nerf now, so try it out in the beta and see how it feels now

[grave siren]

anyways is there a place for like pinned discussions or main takeaways from this discussion?

[rare mason]

I did, its much better now. Now at least there is somewhat of a danger.

[rare mason]

Not yet afaik

[static wedge]

The entire point I'm making here and the reason I'm getting irritated with you is because you don't seem to understand that stasis is getting nerfed. And it will get nerfed again the future. And the mechanical issue that it is allowing beo to ignore is now showing.

[young cobalt]

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1437849816523866222

[static wedge]

Yes, it is broken now and beo gets to not need things because of it. That is changing, thankfully. And it is changing before the foundation of beo raiding is secure without it.

I know you want Beos to be punished because Odie dared to think about nerfing your class, but my dude please look at what is actually being said here and stop balance whining.

[rare mason]

You are correct. Except i do understand it.

And all im saying is, as long as stasis is this broken, there really isnt a need to line or really play your class.

Im all down to buff beo, but stasis has to go. Chronomancer is a fun spec but stasis was a mistake and should never been anywhere near 100%.

Im all down making Beo feel like beo again, but this is just not okay.

Beo without stasis access, gladly do buff the BBs.

[grave siren]

@young cobalt , maybe add to high priority how ward absorption malus makes redlining for beo/a, one of its "notable abilities" makes redlining irrelevant as we have no defensive counterplay other than pet protect stasis?

and not necessarily for beo but inasmuch as beo utilizes stasis in conjunction with its glasscanonny builds, include this?

Edit: apparently pet protect doesn't matter around agony 16 due to maluses

[rare mason]

And no, that you think i want beos to be "punished" is a wonderful display of a toxic mindset. I dont want beo to be nerfed, i want stasis to go.

Please stop associating bad traits with me cause i am not thinking about this as you want me to.

[granite robin]

What is this beo hate

[rare mason]

And lets not add to that that i agreed with the nerf. But i guess you dont care about that, you want to label me.

[static wedge]

We have no pet protect as of agony 16ish. It ceases to be a defensive stat.

[granite robin]

Ive been avoiding pet prot malus for now

[static wedge]

It's a free space for all classes as a malus, and is also a free space for beo after it gets carved out of our soul.

[granite robin]

Agony 13

I pick anything else that is not pet block

[river mural]

I doubt anguish maluses are being considered for this balance patch, especially considering anguish 1.0 is still a thing, but the conversation really just sounds like anguish needs to be revisited considering the changes

[rare mason]

The fact ang 1.0 still exists means ang 2.0 needs love, but its laid on ice for a reason i dont have.

Maybe it can be the focus of the next patch? While i dont think it needs a big amount of work.

[static wedge]

If the malus isn't being touched, then it just means beo raiding gets shit on out of nowhere.

I guess we should ask for a deity style nerf and see if Beos can get 100% stasis act rate instead.

[river mural]

I disagree. I think 2.0 is in a good enough place for everyone to move over.

[rare mason]

That i agree too on. The change could have been made months ago, but it was'nt. So either nf does'nt care about it, or they think it needs more work.

[river mural]

As far as ward absorption, Sirith had a really nice chart of how to overcome it. You can get past it with the amity or chest piece, it's just bad that it requires you to focus your build on just that one malus

[granite robin]

I belive odie should shut down ang 1.0

Its still too rewarding to be at 1.0

[static wedge]

The problem is that it's going to keep happening. Losing one amity for it, okay probably livable. If we ever need to put on the chest, bam you just cut Towerfall damage in half again.

[grave siren]

Well I think we've added a couple more points to the beta discussion. Hope they don't get overlooked.

[young cobalt]

For those curious on the numbers

using DB / Walls of Aaru

• -1-4% ward Absorption = needing 1 "+5%" Amity
• -5-9% ward Absorption = needing 2 amities or sky chest
• -10-13% ward Absorption = needing 1 amity and sky chest
• -14%-18% ward Absorption = needing 2 amities and sky chest
• -18% or more ward Absorption is impossible to get back to 100%

[river mural]

While I don't disagree, that was the point of 2.0, to make you really think about your choices. However, when a certain malus is forced on you like agony 33 ward absorption, it takes away the choice

[rare mason]

I am convinced Odie is aware and considers his life choices at this moment.

[rare mason]

The amount of maluses increasing is a bit much, especially how fast it goes.

We could add "buffs" to counteract them a bit - could be woven into the anguish gear to make it more defining instead if stats + very limited boni

[grave siren]

Pet-based ward skills bypass the ward malus right? Like bone mammoth casting DB > guaranteed 100% ward absorption

[rare mason]

Thats pretty busted. :o I didn't knew that

[river mural]

I tried mammoth at agony 32 against GA using a bestial and small bestial potion, it did nothing :/

[static wedge]

I'm all for being forced to adapt, the problem is that beo is not a well designed class at its base like deity. Beo is an unholy mess of aggressive jank that is held together by duct tape, bubble gum and pure force of will. We shouldnt be forced to cut our damage in half arbitrarily because a mechanical mess like ward absorb exists, but we have no way of getting temp stats from the likes of arisen Aaru Robe and so we have come to rely on it too deeply.

[young cobalt]

Which is why other classes can just play around it with pets, but BeoA after a certain point just straight up can't

[static wedge]

Yes, this is known as the mammoth tax. Other classes can pay it, raiding Beos can't unless they want to take 2 years to kill a raid.

[grave siren]

Some will come and say "use potions. Zerk 1 2 3 potions, tmag3 potions Merlin potion" in lieu of aaru robe and redlining. What say ye?

[river mural]

Which is a perfectly fair point. I don't like stasis, I think its a terrible way to make the game easier as it completely takes away the risk, but I do agree that right now maluses can completely kill a class line instead of providing challenge

[static wedge]

T mag+++ potions? Isn't that just Merlin potion?

I'm not dropping my life to mass farm Merlin twice a year just so I can raid.

We will chug those things so aggressively that I don't even want to think about it.

[past cobalt]

How about the rest of the point Sgt was making

[fallow sphinx]

Everyone gets to use those

[past cobalt]

We aren't talking about everyone

[fallow sphinx]

That's not a solution lol

[static wedge]

I honestly can't remember how fast I acquire berserk mats, I have to check which raids. They should be... Better, but we can't set up a perfect redline with them unless we have godlike hp Regen amities.

[rare mason]

We already have to mass farm smelly mushrooms i agree we dont need another of those...

[grave siren]

Hmm well with status fade being a thing and beo not having a way to counteract unlike staying power or crit poise, and seeing how it takes multiple raids and multiple turns, which only increases with agony, I think zerk potions will probably also get chugged out pretty quickly unless hard farming mimic and fool(?)

[static wedge]

Oh I completely forgot about status fade, yeah that will get bad too. Not as quickly, but I can see it.

Regardless, half the reason I still raid with prom rather than ASG is just that we don't need berserk for that at all. It could theoretically help us get some defensive stats in lieu of redlining, but I just don't see it as sustainable without really disciplined farming... If that even covers it all.

[grave siren]

I raise this question thanks to the Abyss vid, that although he wasnt redlining as much he was chugging those zerks potions..

But at this point if we can't even utilize redline reliably and have to resort on using alternatives in lieu of an ability, wouldn't it be better to improve that ability instead?

Also certain raids have base elemental resistance/immunity

[static wedge]

Everyone gets caught up on ASG, but raiding with constant status effects got old after the first year of doing it.

[static wedge]

Abyss has insanely godlike double hp Regen amities. What he does is not viable for the average player.

[viscid pawn]

Yea statuses were mainly good for countering CA when it was popular in pvp haha

[past cobalt]

I am in favor of improving ward malus, but that will take time. Can't just fix one malus on the path every few months and force everyone to rewire their paths, it'd have to be one big move of all malus issues

[static wedge]

I agree Phil, I'm just butthurt that beo raiding is going to get worse until ward malus gets looked at in 4 months.

[viscid pawn]

? What abyss does is very viable.

[grave siren]

Nein. At that point, no change will ever happen because ideas constantly change and new content might affect preexisting meta etc and things get overlooked or get locked behind archpath. Let the changes come as they go

[viscid pawn]

1 ashen ruby solves hp issues

[grave siren]

Yes, ashen ruby on beoA ASG raiding...

[viscid pawn]

Using zerks

[static wedge]

Flubby it's not that simple. He also has 200% Amorri gear in that setup.

[viscid pawn]

They were talking about using zerks and maintaining hp

[viscid pawn]

Morri gear isnt bis if you want damage. Nice for 0ing out raids but I also saw them 0 A. Morri with lower defense gear in anguish too

[static wedge]

The whole point of that build is 0ing out all incoming damage without worrying about your hp, it is a uniquely powerful option that requires 2 God amities and an hp Regen offhand.

I know because I directly discussed it with him.

[viscid pawn]

And anyone can do that haha. You can sacrifice more damage or you can take tiny amounts of ward damage and use db with ward regen crucible. Hp regen amities also come around often.

Saying it has low damage though for the AL if you are focusing on that instead of gear with offense. There are better builds. That is a meme. Still viable by other people though if they want to

[static wedge]

Abyss did that as a showcase, he normally raids with near full perfect last martyr gear if he screws around on beo. This is in the realm of theoretical because no one does it, because they are not abyss.

[viscid pawn]

I mean no one does it because other options are better

[static wedge]

If we are going to drag that into this discussion, let's talk about how his deity is 0ing out agony 50 raids and say that deity should be nerfed.

[viscid pawn]

Plenty of people have farmed A. Morri for high ornate gear. It isnt some magic event that doesnt drop ornates. It is like using any event gear.

[viscid pawn]

Oh no not saying it should be nerfed. Or even that strong overall I just found the statement that what Abyss does other people cant to be ridiculous

It is like any other gear in the game. Can be farmed if you want to use the build

[static wedge]

It is not ridiculous, there is a massive gap in capability between a monster endgame player like him and anyone who puts in an average to above average amount of time.

[viscid pawn]

Deity defenses make 0ing the agony raids a lot easier tho so deity is very strong in pve

When you shackle ALs and everyone can use the gear... that becomes irrelevant

And use high anguish to balance out the stat diffs on enemies faced.

A. Morri is next month if you want the gear, farm it 🙂 last martyr is all the time. Grab the scrolls and farm it. Just saying talk about the weaknesses of the build rather than just saying others cant replicate

[river mural]

Can we not take away from the discussion by making this about an endgame build someone did? It's very odd how deep you all are getting into it when the original discussion wasn't about Abyss

[static wedge]

And to think, this all started because no one can read that I am complaining about the ward absorption malus.

[viscid pawn]

Talking about that someone was using this build as an example related to beta, and Drel was trying to say others cant replicate a build because they arent that person. Trying to dismiss what they said instead of actually pointing out flaws in it that counters their point

[river mural]

Thats not relevant to the discussion at all, you're just tunneling. We were discussing anguish maluses

[static wedge]

Flubby, you are welcome to climb to high anguish with that perfectly viable build if you so wish.

[viscid pawn]

Yea the malus effecgs everyone a lot. Rs (if they arent just suicide running anguish)

[static wedge]

But then you will realize that the video is against non-superbosses and you will learn the hard way that it isn't comparable.

[viscid pawn]

I mean i dont think it is a fun solution but it is viable. Or just not redlining because the situation is too dangerous

[grave siren]

Btw for stasis beoA raiding, 1 in 10 turns to act down to 1 in 5 is a very noticeable difference, like it's not fun clearing 100s of high HP raids when you have a 1 in 5 chance of dying. Stasis setup basically has no ward to talk of, and what is ward when redlining is apparently irrelevant thanks to ward malus and practically no pet protect?

How is beoA supposed to raid mid to high agony (25+ etc) en masse like other classes? Rely on duos? HoC to other classes? Potions might be a viable alternative but they come in limited supply or are event locked, and status fade + longer fights due to higher HP + number of raids doesn't seem like a sustainable method.

Oh and some raids are immune/resistant to base elements so ASG isn't always viable, TF is even more glass canony.

Every class has a somewhat reliable or safe way of raiding (somewhat, Realmies are also affected by ward malus but at least they have mystic feather in terms of survivability) but even beo's pet protect gets obliterated.

[static wedge]

Oh, no wonder you keep spewing that "just don't redline bro" crap. You don't realize that anguish stats were bugged in that video.

[viscid pawn]

That malus being removed would be nice since ward is important for high end content.

[viscid pawn]

? I said it 1 time lol. Like... if you cant survive a hit then dont sit at low HP. Like saying you die quick but you keep swashing

[river mural]

Honestly it could instead just be ward reduction and it'd be viable and punishing

[static wedge]

If we don't sit at low HP, we can be 0'd out by the boss... Especially ASG which had pen nerfed. If we sit at low HP against bosses with 700% damage, we die.

[viscid pawn]

Yea lol still obnoxious but way better option haha

[grave siren]

I told you Drel, 😆 even though beoA has "redlining" as an ability, ward malus basically makes it irrelevant and people will say "just don't redline bro"

Swashing is viable tho because you can 1 hit mobs or have high HP/ward despite having near 0 damage

[granite robin]

Its funny how ppl think asg is good on agony raiding

[viscid pawn]

It isnt. Idk about you but

[granite robin]

Exactly

[static wedge]

I know Sgt, I should stop hitting my head against a wall but if I don't whine here people will actually delude themselves into believing that bullshit.

[viscid pawn]

I dont go for low m1 attacks in raids

[viscid pawn]

They look at asg damage at 0 agony and vs cactus and see the damage and base it off of that

Not realizing the low m1 makes it hit weak as res raises of enemy

[granite robin]

Or stasis max redline

[static wedge]

Flubby, you were not helping my blood pressure by comparing stuff to the abyss video

[viscid pawn]

Yes with this when I play dursa I domt redline because that is usually when I die lol

[viscid pawn]

I think you misunderstood what I was saying lol. I just wanted you to discuss what he was saying rather than blowing it off as irrelevant because it was from abyss

Like talking about hoe weak the offense of the build is and everything you sacrifice for it

And you do sacrifice a lot for defense builds. Zerks are m2 not m1

[granite robin]

Idk but always when i talk with non beos my blood pressure rises

[viscid pawn]

I play all classes. Beo AL 20 and love trolling with beo in raids, pvp or dungeons

[granite robin]

Well atleast you play beo

[viscid pawn]

Im of the opinion if someone hasnt tested a class out in the game for themselves they cant accurately critique it

Dont generally like the idea of "fix it with more ALs" either. All builds become strong with more ALs haha but doesnt make them good

[static wedge]

The really difficult part of this discussion specifically is that you don't get people trying out other classes for raiding at agony 32; they compare the known performance of their class at that level to the assumed performance at a lower agony or with absurd factors like stasis.

[viscid pawn]

Yea that is hard to farm to test stuff out sadly. Odie also said 25 in 2.0 = 50 in 1.0

So that is pretty strong up there

Also pet block malus is pretty much just targeting beo XD

[granite robin]

Yup

[static wedge]

Hell I'm not even at that 32 breakpoint yet either, but I'm already seeing the difference between stasis and non-stasis builds at 20. And let me tell you, it feels bad to climb knowing that ward malus is just going to unconditionally murder my damage at the first opportunity, and moreso later.

[granite robin]

I yet need to find consistent beoA farming method for scrolls to even dream such agony numbers

[viscid pawn]

I get a lot of scrolls from monuments really easy

And horde reg dungeons a decent bit

[granite robin]

I should do thosr more

[viscid pawn]

But monument shop 30 proofs per 👌👌

[granite robin]

At mel 6 i lack dmg and hp

[static wedge]

Some events are obviously more gentle with your scroll acquisition, but you also have to consider holding your scrolls really hard for specific events that offer +1 proof rolls.

[viscid pawn]

Moon drops are what I am doing for proofs atm

[static wedge]

The new lunar and Thanksgiving events gave that and it basically doubles proofs.

[young cobalt]

Since Status effects has brought up such conversation we've made a full discussion thread for it -> https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1441474827872370688

[viscid pawn]

Enough to get stardrops for more hype tabs too since I get way too many moon

[static wedge]

Sirith gently saying "Drel you're drunk, give me your keys" and shoving me into another room

[clever kindle]

Ok not a beo or anything, but what’s wrong with beo hydrus raiding?

[grave siren]

Ss3 gonna get nerfed for (halved m1 penetration) for non gilga classes, (deity has Apex Legends now so they don't care about SS3)

Ultima/strikes get rekt by elemental and crit maluses (heras have flasks which are greatly boosted by gear and not as much affected by maluses except for Crit)

[viscid pawn]

Ss3 nerf was 25% m1 lowered and the nerf is currently reduced a bit more but Odie didnt say how much. (Didnt see it if he did at least)

Can still do crit beo H but the thing is, people want to play their pet classes too not just being forced into playing Hydrus

Now provided... block beo! :p

[clever kindle]

Ok so pretty much nothing aside from preference? And losing ss3?

[static wedge]

BeoH raiding is a meme in anguish, they choose damage or survival unless they run SS3. Crit builds are for smurfing low anguish or kingdom raids.

[clever kindle]

Isn’t that what most classes have to deal with?

[static wedge]

No, just the ones that suck at raiding anguish.

[clever kindle]

Ok so beo a is better at raiding than beo h?

[viscid pawn]

I mean this just makes me wish I had a yel helmet XD need to raise anguish but... how is block beo doin? Should still be great for survival. But I dont think it should be a necessity for using the class still.

[static wedge]

In general yes, by a wide margin. Abyss made BeoH work with SS3, but he said it was a far third to deity and gilga... And I don't know if it is even a real option now after the m1 nerf.

[viscid pawn]

Hm? Really? I havent done high anguish with it and need a hybrid amity... but been hitting pretty well last I used it

[static wedge]

On the other hand, follower raiding could abuse stasis or still be tanky while doing damage thanks to redlining. However they have have their own massive issue now.

[viscid pawn]

BeoH ss3 hits about the same as gilgy if gilgy doesnt have collateral or frenzy hitting

[granite robin]

I mean if you realy want to run block beo you can use eos... but yeah i dont need to comment anymore

[clever kindle]

👍 wouldn’t beo h be less affected by the m1 nerf as they have hybrid monster to get more stats though?

[viscid pawn]

Higher m1 tho with lower m2 for beo H.

M1 nerf got scaled back a bit so it isnt a massive nerf for beoH also

But for crit beoH, recharge is nice

[young cobalt]

BeoH in mid-high anguish

• Despair - okay
• Mel - Bad
• Agony - Really bad
• Torment - Top tier/the best

[static wedge]

Its more of a "BeoH can kind of do the same thing" issue where the damage is now getting hit. BeoH was a distant third because it lacks defensive scaling, but could be made to work against most bosses... Now it's losing damage on it's only anguish option.

[viscid pawn]

Only anguish 11 for despair but beo H does well in that. Not as good as heretic but still. Use orn gear for it

[granite robin]

BeoA next plz

[static wedge]

And even when I say this, Sirith is on point because it feels terrible to try and raid with

[viscid pawn]

But havent used beo H for any but that and raids so far and not a ton. So cant say too much

Didnt realize at higher anguish it got so bad for them

[static wedge]

To me BeoH raiding has one purpose: dopamine mining by smurfing tiny bosses with ultimastrikes

[jagged delta]

For raiding, I use BeoH only for fast Kraids, so no anguish. With US.

[viscid pawn]

Yea maluses really nuke that attack haha

But anything that kills beo H damage is prone to also kill rs and dursa damage too 😮

Tho dursa is a tank so... not too concerned with that damage being super high

[jagged delta]

Besides US, BeoH is probably mostly used for mag based builds. And Dara has +100% passive.

[clever kindle]

Ight thanks yalls 👍

[young cobalt]

BeoA in mid-high anguish

• Despair - meh-slightly worse than BeoH
• Mel - Basically impossible
• Agony - Top tier/the best (only due to stasis)
  • without stasis - sub-par
• Torment - Horrendous

[viscid pawn]

Ill have to test some things out more when I raise anguish more. And when I test I do without BoF swashing since I dont like relying on it

[clever kindle]

That passive does takes years to charge though

[viscid pawn]

Yea dara takes a while to stack tho and do still have 20% all the time for beo H. Give and take

[granite robin]

I love it

[jagged delta]

But for higher anguish, you have some time to charge it. I cannot 1-shoot my anguish 21 raids 😉

[granite robin]

I barely survive mel 6

[viscid pawn]

Yea fair lol.

[clever kindle]

You can one shot anything if you try hard enough 😂

[granite robin]

Can we pin this

[jagged delta]

And still you don't want to use BeoH

[viscid pawn]

Ik im wanting to test out new apex bonuses to see how good they do

Too bad my bidents are terrible

[granite robin]

BeoA is in my hearth

[viscid pawn]

If the boosts buff m1 like flask bonus... dara may be able to one shot anguish 21 raids haha

[jagged delta]

There are some videos with > 100 million apex damage - so it can be good (with very good gear) 😄

[clever kindle]

It’s pretty solid, I’m more concerned with the temp buff passives pretty much being removed currently

[young cobalt]

I have Mel20 unlocked, and still just run Mel4 as BeoH cause it's just really bad after like mel 18 or something

[viscid pawn]

Only ones where quality matters (other than survivability) are weapond and essences XD

[granite robin]

I realy hope bb changes help beoA

[jagged delta]

I can imagine. I currently run Mel14 (shackled), and I started using zerk potions to have enough damage...

[granite robin]

Tho it slowly looks like i dont want beta patch to come live

[clever kindle]

Like Orion did some tests and currently the temp buffs are at 2/3rds of a lugnus gauntlet 💀😂

[granite robin]

Thats justified

[clever kindle]

Pls tell me you’re trolling

[granite robin]

Atleast now deity needs to get important buffs from pets like everyone else

[viscid pawn]

Hm? Wait where

Was it mentioned? They are there in beta still

[viscid pawn]

Oh huh odd. Chances are supposed to be higher

Lugus is 3% per character interacted with.

Ah I see. Chance went from 5% for t.^^^ ones to 2%

[jagged delta]

yeah, chances are down from 5/8/20 to 2/4/10 for +++/++/+

[viscid pawn]

Dang that is a huge nerf 0.o

Halving the chance rounded down... that is pretty bad then

[clever kindle]

#1437510305252114573 message

[viscid pawn]

Dex nerf was needed tho. They had crazy high dex... more than thief classline is crazy

[static wedge]

And they are still leagues better than anything beo can do in Dungeons 🤷‍♂️

[clever kindle]

You do know that base deity has a higher chance to get t.all ^^^ than the celestials have to get a single up?

[viscid pawn]

Yea which is crazy haha

Archimedes base deity 🫡

[jagged delta]

But at the moment, probably nobody is playing base deity class. So it makes sense that mainly the cele classes get nerfed

[viscid pawn]

Fair lol. Easier to get dc than mag^^^ or attack ^^^ so celestials were nice for that. But uh... dursa still gets dc on a free apex turn. Dara still gets it in 1 turn. For dungeons that isnt so useful for dara, but still

[clever kindle]

Didn’t say that the celestials shouldn’t get nerfed, just dang rn it’s looking rough to the point where I’m wondering why even give us the passive 😂

[viscid pawn]

Just means more dursa vs dara. Kill enemy boosts chance for t.attack ^^^ can use lugus still and free dc from pet or apex. Depending on if ya use aoe buff or not

Maybe if they brought it to match lugus at least haha that extra 1% is a big diff

And the lower buffs being brought up a bit XD t.^^ ones end so fast I just ignore them already basically

But they will still be strong even with the nerf.

[clever kindle]

From what I’ve heard, ^^ actually aren’t affected by staying power

[viscid pawn]

They wear off so fast that buff duration wouldnt do much, but if it doesnt work at all that would explain some haha

[clever kindle]

Anyways I guess we should probably go to deity thread and stop clogging up general

[river mural]

Any chance the beta access can open up again?

[near kindle]

It hasn’t closed

[river mural]

I can't enter it in the playstore

[near kindle]

Are you using the link in #game-announcements message?

[river mural]

I was not. Thank you kindly

[heavy knoll]

I know this isn't the ideal channel for this, but it's been 12 days since I started reporting a problem to Login and I haven't received a response. The company told me to contact Dangy, but he simply ignored my request for help even after I showed him a screenshot of the email instructing me to contact him via DM. It's been 12 days and I still haven't been able to get any assistance. Yes, the question is related to the beta version, even if it's just instructions on how to proceed, any answer helps.

[near kindle]

Could you show me where the company told you to contact Dangy? This doesn’t sound like something that should have gone to our Community Manager

[heavy knoll]

I send the print in DM

[near kindle]

Okay, we are talking about a mirror problem, not login problem

You don’t appear to have a mirror in Aethric’s beta

[heavy knoll]

I was approved for the mirror, but I tried and couldn't get it through email. I don't know if I'm doing something wrong, that's why I asked for help.

[near kindle]

I’ll let Dangy know that the mirror didn’t appear to go through

Thanks for letting me know

[heavy knoll]

Thanks, I had already tried everything without results, I was almost giving up on the game.

[faint estuary]

Just got a notification saying the iOS beta is available, but it won’t load past the starting screen

[ionic canyon]

So how close are we to rolling this out?

[sterile topaz]

Same

[icy cloak]

It is going to come in waves

[atomic zenith]

was wondering about that

[faint estuary]

@plush badger any chance we can get the gilga thread unlocked now that we have new changes to discuss?

Also, any updates on an iOS beta would be greatly appreciated

[plush badger]

Looks like it's been handled!

[rare mason]

Thoughts?

Think all of them are great except status reversal

[granite robin]

Statuses did not need nerf in general ( stasis does need nerf)

There is still some weird nerfs like toxic which is now just cursed 2.0
And drenched with 1% turn loss chance

[young cobalt]

I'm honestly fine with Drenched having a 1% turn miss, the status effect itself feels more like it's meant to just be thematic and funny more than actually meant to usable

Tho I can agree toxic just being cursed 2.0 is a bit odd but maybe Odie has ideas for it in the future

[still sky]

Cursed can be cured with Nostrum while Toxic inexplicably can't, for whatever that's worth concerning their comparison 😅

[granite robin]

Hopefully

[granite robin]

On the toxic user perspective they are the same. In pvp there is no such thing as potion usage.

[still sky]

They are still two different DOT sources, which helps with actually killing the target. Unless the effect damage was nerfed too.

[granite robin]

This status nerf is still direct aaruviper nerf which isnt even super strong in the meta. It only punishes ppl that ignores status resistance/immunity

[rare mason]

I dont understand why everybody instantly jumps to PvP when the talk about statuses go, they are a multitude more annoying if they affect you in PvE content.

From a strict PvE standpoint the change was beautiful: i like statuses to feel like something, but they just were too obnoxious.

[past cobalt]

Most people are ok with the pve changes I think, some exceptions. Pvp is the main controversy

[river mural]

There's also plenty of ways to counter statuses in pve but in pvp you're very limited

[rare mason]

Apply them to PvE only? I would not complain

[still sky]

Yeah, most builds lose too much of what they need just to cover 1 or 2 status immunities due to gear limitations and distribution of those immunities. Not too big of an issue in PvE, though.

[granite robin]

Mostly bc from status user perspective you dont have much options where to use status builds.

90% of pve is not usable for status builds

Pvp is where status builds are fully usable

[past cobalt]

And pvp is where it's problematic for many people

[granite robin]

Its problematic for ppl that want to min max dmg and not care about statuses

For ppl that do adjust their pvp build vs statuses does not have problems

[past cobalt]

This is a reductive take. I provided examples in the other thread of how difficult it can be.

• Even with a build fully maxed out on status resist, assassin builds get to blind me and give me dmg-- on turn 1.
• Equipping status immunity gear is the only solution, and the gear that includes the relevant immunities is often class-restricted and weak

So changing my build to counter status builds leaves me unable to fight back appropriately against every other build; it's not just a "minmaxing" thing for most classes

[still sky]

Sleep, alone, only has class-restricted event gear (some of which comes with negative Def), Ward-less low-tier event gear (Dusk Armor, etc), or giving up an accessory slot for 1 immunity as the only options for sleep prevention.

[granite robin]

But you did counter 95% of the statuses that was possible on turn 1 🧐

[granite robin]

Purlys offhand

[still sky]

Oh, a rare drop from a once-a-year raiding event.

[granite robin]

Ankoys ring

[still sky]

That falls under the accessory bit.

[granite robin]

The pegasus staff

[still sky]

I lose Manaflask Power using that but at least I get some Foresight

[granite robin]

I mean there are options

[past cobalt]

With a build full of mismatched and weak gear and full status resist adornments, I countered your follower's applications. I cannot counter sleep dart or anything with a semi-high application rate

[granite robin]

You also countered my weapon's

Both fully filled finesse katanas

[still sky]

Probably because you have them enchantmented enchanted and tried to hit someone with Omnimancy as a passive.

[granite robin]

No

[still sky]

I can't spell apparently lol

[past cobalt]

Again, we are talking about a useless build except for countering statuses. It still isn't enough to counter the most basic of applications in sands of aaru and sleep dart, for example

[granite robin]

I did hit sand of aaru and procced blind from that. But anything that my weapons/ pet was procced was protected

Ofc impale did land status, but that does not help much

[past cobalt]

Because they have low application rates, yes. That experiment showed how weak status resistance effects are (it even included steadfast 2)

[granite robin]

Looks quite strong if you can nullify 95% of a builds power