Anguish Live Feedback

[sinful vapor]

Does the luck bonus in the raid path affect raids? Yes, it does

[jaunty tide]

I thought i remembered seeing a while back that Anguished stuff can get more affixes the higher level they get... is this true or is this just a fever dream I made up?

If it is true, we know what anguished levels this happens at?

[naive lynx]

Fever dream far as I remember. Just the one passive

[next flame]

Just something I thought of last night, but what if the Ang paths had a proof multiplier for end of dungeon rewards? Like level 1-15 nets 1-5 proofs, level 16-30 nets 2-7 proofs, and so on? Then it would still be increasing rewards that would scale to Ang costs.

And I like the idea of having an unaffiliated currency for anguish too, like anguished souls that can be used in place of any ang proof for purchasing or ang level.

[supple cape]

I can confirm it does. I got around 40 lyncus bristles from 45 lyncus scrolls.

[grave fulcrum]

oooo
uh anguished souls that could be used to purchase tools and mats yes but ang level no go your dungeons shouldnt reward your raids your raids shouldnt reward your towers your towers shouldnt reward world farm and world farm shouldnt reward your dungeons.
@next flame

[next flame]

Just a thought I had. I don’t really like the idea of it affecting other options either, but just putting it out there in case it seemed fair.

The first part though? Oh yeah I’d like that.

[grave fulcrum]

i personally do like the idea of end of dungeon rewards giving a bonus
end of dungeon screen gives x bonus melancholy
maybe something with towers like every 5th floor gives bonus proofs/ entire floor has t10 enemies only
difficult thing is setting something up for world farm maybe set it up like a quest system within the guild that gives quests at your tier allowing you to fight mobs of your teir
--maybe make it 30 of a specific normal rarity enemy and have it scale with rarity of enemy for more proofs
--if its a rare enemy give it a lesser requirement of kills but always above 10 enemies and always enemies of your tier
--give it a new quest every 4-5 hrs if last quest was completed and have quest auto turn in for the guild so you dont have to swap to guild for each quest completed give 5 quests to run each reset if all quests were completed otherwise give quests back to 5.

quest system could be set up similarly to the adventurers guild in hoa and could even go as far as giving quests for all 4 content types like climb floors in towers and complete x amount of dungeons kill x amount of raids. the only difficult side would be making only world farm enemies count for despair quests

something like the listed above stuff could bring other paths closer inline with agony allowing agony to keep its trash raids dropping proofs

please lmk if we should make this an actuall suggestion and input for the idea is greatly appreciated

[naive lynx]

Can we add berserk mobs to drop double the proofs or something btw? Would give more reason to take zerk maluses instead of kind of shy away

[nocturne night]

So why exactly are you asking for a malus to be a bonus instead? 😅
It's a malus for a reason, it's meant to be a bad thing.

With that change, people would be actively seeking berserk "maluses", and each time it'd pop up, it'd be essentially deleting one "malus" from the pool (because they're essentially bonuses)

[grave fulcrum]

adds reward for more risk
i think zerk enemies is alwaya a malus but it also could come with a bonus making it give extra proofs

[nocturne night]

You already have more reward, it's the bonus proofs, orns, luck, gold and anguish gear% from levelling up

[naive lynx]

Woah okay Mr Snarky! It's implied you would take a different malus such as that over easier ones to get more rewards for WAY more risk. If I'm running hordes or towers, berserk mobs are substantially harder to kill let alone possibly a whole pack of them. You are playing much more risky for the possibility for more rewards. You are also ignoring the easy maluses for something generally harder. Also never said it'd be a guarantee drop. Sorry for wanting more risk and exhilarating gameplay 😂

[nocturne night]

I didn't exactly mean for it to be snarky, but like, why would berserk be special and be an added bonus ontop of its effect? Should we add another bonus ontop of permanent buff falloff rate, since everybody hates those? How about miss chance / enemy second chance, since those make enemies much harder by forcing you to have to actually tank hits from enemies?

[next flame]

I’d like to see a second chance rework too. Like an over killed function. If you do upwards of 50% more damage to an enemy (ex. An enemy has 15k health, and you do 150% damage, meaning you did 22k damage) or more then the enemy can’t proc second chance and gets overkilled

Sorry, won’t change the topic again just something I’ve suggested before

[storm wadi]

Berserk mobs already have a chance to drop double their mats, it just aligns with their specialty that they would also have a chance to drop double proofs. They're already special by design

[hushed crow]

Doesn't feel like anguish gear does much for the basic summoner lmao literally I've noticed 0 difference between ang1-4 gear, only that my summons hit less and I get hit harder

[finite flint]

anguished gear scales more for summoners than for other classes lol. At agony 20 , anguish 20 pieces with summon stats give a decent +60 (ye i know it's additive, but still), while a 200 hear robe anguish 20 is not much more mag (because it doesn't scale with AL )

[normal citrus]

anguished gear is very skewed towards benefitting beoa and gs (gs idk if it's a problem, beoa you can get away with murder)

[hushed crow]

Maybe for bloodpact scaling but for summons themselves? I haven't seen much of a dmg difference tbh since enemies also scale, I'm sure bloodpact is gonna get the hammer soon again here soon

[supple cape]

Follower scaling is limited to bonds, so we get something like 1/3 of our magic or attack scaling transferring to followers. The paltry 3% follower stat per anguish level boost is a requirement for us to not get walled since the transfer for anguished stats is terrible.

[normal citrus]

paltry? it's 3% on every piece no
there's a reason why non bissed players opt for beoa asg raiding (and to great success)

[harsh geyser]

3% additive with base increases (from class and tamer and all other +follower gear).

anguish bonuses atm are probably best for beo/a, second best for gs/a, and last for everyone else.
balancing the scaling bonuses properly is going to be important, and also making the scaling bonuses matter at all beyond angL1 for the passive benefit (e.g. accuracy, ward turns, etc.).

[supple cape]

Yes, paltry. BeoA has 230% follower stats by default, 30% follower stats isn't straight 30% increased damage... it's a purely additive 12% on top of bond scaling which will be around 30% of magic.
I've been able to safely fit two pieces into my towerfall tank build thus far at agony 10 against really hard hit hitting bosses, head and shield. The amount can be adjusted (may very well have to with fey gerd gear passive) but without this scaling BeoA raiding would just get 0'd out before anyone. We already saw this in ang 2.0 testing when ASG got 0'd out by arisen morrigan on agony 2 before the boss stats got lowered.

[short osprey]

It's not really possible to test yet with follower stats from anguish gear not working yet, so we will have to wait and see

[normal citrus]

ok yeah that fits what I've seen
approx doubling follower stats (along with the fact that some malus effects just doesn't affect followers?) in 15 ang is very powerful

[tacit ridge]

Can we talk about permanent status effect fade chance? It offers no counter play or avenue to build around it and is by far the most frustrating malus you can get. Eventually you’re basically forced to take it, even if only +1%, but since it rolls against every buff it still happens fairly often even at that %

[grave fulcrum]

afaik it also rolls against every enemy hit aswell

during beta tests i think people mentioned that it did so dungeons will be unplayable

[tacit ridge]

I only have it on in agony right now so can’t confirm that but I’d assume so, most things do

[finite flint]

you just lose turns in case (to recast), or damage, how is it different from any other malus? moreover with TTM recasting the buff for free the immediate next turn in half of the cases (you go att/mag ++ then snotra or gunnr right? then get the free zerk) why do you care that much? it's just for 1 status at the end. The other 2 are re-applied for free without you even noticing if you don't pay too much attention. Now granted ofc as usual that's not true for GS specifically...

[tacit ridge]

For dungeons, it can kill you if it happens in the later floors and you need to recast.
Not all classes get to run TMM, especially in paths like agony. Gilga basically depends on its pet to regen ward so it can deal consistent damage for example.

Other malus you can build around them. Loaded up on crit malus? Use a non crit build. Got a ton of elemental damage nerfs? Use elementless skills, etc. This malus has no counter play and is just a huge nuisance even at 1% because of how the game rolls it

[raven bane]

The way it seems to work is that it rolls for each of your permanent effects (not sure tho), I think it would be better if it rolled and then removed an effect. That way you could leave on superfluous or even negative effects in the hope that you don't lose your important ones

[thin sundial]

Hi
Just wanted to post a thought not sure if it was already said or not about anguish.

First love the new anguish except for the shackles.

I’m an ascension level 123 summoner and I had a thought why not reverse the shackles?

For example I think anguish level 6 or 7 limits ascension levels to 17. Instead of only allowing 17 ascension levels why not have it subtract it from the total?

So instead of going into a dungeon with 17 ascension levels I would go in with 106, still tough but I think fair.

That way I can grind more ascensions to offset the cuffs.

[solid tiger]

That makes no sense, the content would get harder and you would get weaker.

[hushed crow]

Atm that's how it feels 🤣💀

[thin sundial]

Just a thought if you wanted to keep the shackles.

A rework would be needed, like the shackles are above and beyond and compensation would need to be better for them.

[pulsar scroll]

This is exactly what I have been saying. Like the first shackle could remove 10% of your ALs, next shackle removes another 9% etc etc (the numbers are just examples.)

High AL players still would benefit from their ALs but it would eventually get to a point where you would be running anguish with a significant reduction in ALs. If that was done by removing % of a players AL, then players would still benefit from continuing to ascend, but the incremental benefit of ascending would decrease over time.

[rain pulsar]

After the introduction of shackles, the game goes downhill... This is my subjective opinion.

[supple cape]

Non-balance consideration: what's the appetite for creating a toggle on the stats screen for the anguish level of each mode? I started trying to calculate raid damage and realized I can only confirm my stats against my lower despair level, meaning lower anguish gear stats and a lower shackled AL.

[ember yarrow]

I think I’m in the minority. I enjoy thinking when I go into a fight. Not just hit the attack button and fight is done

[short osprey]

This is what I've been enjoying about towers, you can just mindlessly grind, but the random zerks feel often enough to where you still have to look out for random Zerk enemies and play around it

[peak spade]

literally this 👍

[harsh geyser]

I think it is the minority opinion, and I wish there was a guild/some optional content that was created for this playerbase (if it can't just be the whole game).

[plush nimbus]

Optional server* 😋

[ember yarrow]

The Masochist Guild 🤣

[harsh geyser]

Anguish 3.0: Revengeance

[naive lynx]

A guild where there are no perma buffs, you have to cast followers skills, and if you die you lose your follower and a level. Pure masochism.

[supple cape]

Every time you lose your replica titan, you have to reaquire it from the tower shop

[plush nimbus]

It may help people getting the shiny versions

[oak axle]

Doubt it

[naive lynx]

Did somebody say.....Shinies?

[vital swift]

#🏆│triumph-and-tragedy message

[sinful vapor]

That's not.. real is it

[grave fulcrum]

Are shinies real tho this look like a blue tinge over the sprite nothing shiney about it heheh

[next flame]

If they are real I’m about to farm as many monuments as I can and buy a ton of garms until I get a shiny

[paper void]

Crap, did we accidentally release she shinies beta?

[pearl thorn]

Newsletter February 2023??

[daring terrace]

Wasn't anguish 2 supposed to fill this gap?

I know it doesn't, but the intent, before the "numbers go up" crowd threw a tantrum, was to negate the infinite power from ascension and to provide meaningful challenges?

[harsh geyser]

It was my belief originally that Anguish 2.0 was supposed to fill this gap.

[plush nimbus]

Damn it, it was supposed to be the sandstone golem droping sandstone update 😔
(But tbf rainbow Fenrir looks awesome)

[plush nimbus]

By the way, new mob packs in tower are really nice

[finite flint]

i think it was supposed to be the go to guild for all endgamers, because if you remove anguish 1.0 and don't get anything else, after 80-100 AL the game is solved. Anguish 2.0 was supposed to be what everyone deep into the endgame would focus on, not just "content that disabled AL" lol, it was supposed to be where you go with a lot of AL and get value back from that investment . With a formula that makes it "almost uncapped" to the endgame is indeed endless and you keep going. You could always face "too hard" content by doing anguish 1.0 towers at insane anguish anyway if that's was your thing. Or anguish 50 dungeons without chained shield

[ember yarrow]

I completely agree. Love this addition

[oak axle]

I assume anguish 2.0 was programmed, because 1st edit didn't work with raids at all. Ppl want to work for the greater rewards, nothing about proofs. I am disappointed that there is no dump in orns, and the rewards don't really do much in change.

[bronze plinth]

Agony path scales luck and quality%

[full peak]

And I thought that it was whole time presented as harder, slower, "prepare to die" edition of ang1.0 with slowing speed down ....

[naive lynx]

Prepare to die edition starts at 47 when you are forced to take perma buff fade chance

[full peak]

so far can't imagine running any of the ang at 47, not to mention getting there... even the agony

i like my sanity intact

[bronze plinth]

Imagine how many scrolls it takes to up your agony at 47

[naive lynx]

I made it to 46 on beta and it's doable although very risky without the right anguish gear setup. Mainly just zerks and one big tap enemies taking you out. Other than that it's just a wee bit slower with good rewards. Wish I was there now 😂

[full peak]

5000-6000 scrolls +/-

for heavy alter that's a week in spot with 2 UW portals

...or you know, <1500 scrolls + 3mil korns for pre-nerf small jorms?

[normal citrus]

Tbh the base game is solved in like 20 al at least from my experience before ang 2.0

[bronze plinth]

Oh god

[raven bane]

I'm high agony on live and the raids are very fun good content, and basically have been since around 20. I think just the early anguish feels a bit slow and boring, the issues compounded by how costly the levels are imo.

[steep holly]

Maybe I didn't read it but already discussed, will demonworking tools rolls the extra effects (def/res penet, crit) or just the level of anguish?

[sinful vapor]

Just the level. The bonuses are rerolled by Anguished Crucibles

That is an excellent bonus to have on that staff. Wish I had that on my arisen terror

[steep holly]

Thank you for clarifying, just wanted to be sure even if I already read the description in the demonworking tools and used it 3 times. Don't want to lose that bonus 😅

[supple cape]

Speaking of def/res pen anguish bonus, is it currently functioning and is it intended to work with follower damage? Read somewhere that it didn't work at all, I've had it on my raiding weapons and I don't know if I can feel a difference with follower damage at all.

[nimble dawn]

Not sure I understand the change

• Introduced a Anguish Proof and Anguish Gear bonus when playing Anguish 2.0 content Ascension Shackled
  New currency?
  new extra gear bonus if you shackle?

Ohhh it's a (Anguish Proof and Anguish Gear) drop rate bonus

[short osprey]

Made a thread here, there's a screenshot at the start that shows the new value changes when shackled (There's a bit more to it but that's what the thread is for 👍 )
https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1394382336535302225

[languid adder]

So first, im literally crying in joy.
Second, thank you all...

Im gonna take my time before i mentally recover from this ordeal, but ill be back x.x

[finite flint]

if you can kill them at the highest agony every time it's 110-120 per level

[grave fulcrum]

@normal citrus do they have any elemental nerfs for faction elements

okay so it seems that beos pets arent getting crit nerf damage nerfs or ?faction elements nerfs? allowing them to 2 items anguished cruise through current ang 35 raids

brye do you know if theres a bug report in for it?

[normal citrus]

slowmode sucks lol (older ss

[steep jetty]

followers does not get penalty the same as they do not get the bonuses from X malus / bonus

crit chance, damage, ward abs, multi-target dmg, and others i may be forgetting

[cyan mason]

Any feedback from the beta boys?

[short osprey]

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1394382336535302225
(Enter at your own risk )

[pearl mango]

i personally think pathspurs as a whole and needing items to change my anguish paths should be removed it locks everyone from experiencing different builds due to the insane variety of maluses and it bombs duo play due to everyone using different builds
If we could just change paths for free that wouldve been so much better than wasting thousands of proofs if i decide to raid with something else for a while once im high ang

[grave fulcrum]

Just do the damage yourself and host the raids whoever hosts should be the carry because one of your builds will do more damage for the path you built. Dungeons is the only place I think I'd agree because you host 4 dungeons per single dungeon in 4 person runs and each person having different malus causes problems

@pearl mango @normal citrus what if pathspur worked as a reset to all malus so you have to go through and choose the options that way no matter how many ang lvls you have. You go through and pick each option again.

[pearl mango]

Even tower since at some point will need to use different builds for a single high ang tower its just a big pain and annoying for no reason the mechanic have no good use or reason to be here other than waste our proofs and annoy us

@grave fulcrum thatll work make it that 1pathspur reset the whole tree

[normal citrus]

I agree with lover here, it's a new feature, why not let us experiment? The cost to trying new shit is already a hoc, so why compound (angs)*20 proofs along with that

response to the second paragraph: that'll be much better

response to archaeis: why force players to incur a cost in the first place lol

response v2: the CONTENT is not supposed to be easy or convenient, but why make access to the content more difficult

[summer folio]

I think this suggestion may give the best of both worlds. Keep pathspurs as a mechanic, because this content is not supposed to be easy and convenient, but unlocked paths are permanent: #💡│suggestions message

[bronze plinth]

We had this discussion already

[upbeat gorge]

Would be great if there was some sort of consolidation of the information already discussed for us to see, because everyone does tend to go over the same things just because someone new enters the discussion or a new alternative gets brought up.

[grave fulcrum]

You're late why to this why are you pinging me about messages I walked away from you on already in another channel. No reason for you to ping something that was sent far before you even involved yourself in the conversation and be like "we had this discussion already"

[bronze plinth]

Imo its weird to ask the same question if you already had the answer much earlier. Brye and any beo main will answer the same. No need to ask same question multiple times in a day 🙂

[grave fulcrum]

funny that i wasnt asking a question but rather mentioning it here because it was related to anguish stuff not fine tuning deity isnt it crazy that if you read a bit more youd see that i was saying to move the conversation here. hmmmm maybe you should read more to understand context and pay attention to times and dates to understand why it was brought from one channel to another. youre input changed nothing beo needs nerfed still specifically so that all malus effect beo pets but youll never agree to that

[bronze plinth]

I mean you asked if there is bug report. Yesterday i said its not a bug

[sturdy stump]

allegedly follower anguish stats is still bugged, but if it scales with al like summon stats do (I believe), then I think its too strong for sure considering pets dont get impacted by most maluses.

[grave fulcrum]

notice the edit where brye had replied stating things and i asked if there was a bug report in because youre 1 person who doesnt play beo traditionally so id rather someone with far more als than you discuss it

[tacit ridge]

If followers aren’t getting impacted by the anguish maluses that’s either a bug or a crazy design flaw

[sturdy stump]

its the same for summons, but they are much weaker than followers so idk how much of a problem it is. Almost certainly not a bug but just a design flaw I suppose

[steep jetty]

either let it scale with bonuses and get affected by (the currently not) anguish maluses, or.. 🤷‍♂️

[sturdy stump]

scaling with bonuses would probably be broken as hell considering beoa is already one of the best raiders, and if ang gear works theyre getting tons of follower stats from that which may or may not scale with al. It needs some other kind of adjustment but idk what

[bronze plinth]

Traditionally beowulf uses a follower and adjusts gearing to fits its follower? No? But we can agree that brye has lots of als. But that does not mean hes the only one who knows how beo works. Good day

[supple cape]

How dare you try to be helpful while not being high AL, Odin. Go back to your Eos dungeon.
God I can't wait for the aggressively whining high AL players to drive us into the next beta update.

[upbeat gorge]

I know you're joking but it seriously feels like that alllllll the time when having discussions about the game in almost any topic

[languid adder]

I think some classes will just be broken and some will be good.
But summoner and beo will be power houses in high anguish, and im looking forward to that experience! :D
Its gonna be fun to experience.
I wanna see those summoners with their 2 million health summons that onetap half the universe by casting defend.

[naive lynx]

If the GS isn't one tapped before they cast the fun stuff 😂

[supple cape]

If Odin catches a stray from summoners getting nerfed after finally coming out of the shadows with his Beommoner build, I will cry laughing.

[pearl mango]

2million health summons lol

[wintry vector]

Summoner powerhouse in high anguish

Viable endgame, wouldn't that be lovely

[merry mica]

Ok I have to do it… i will be crushed by the sheer amount of hate I will get for that one sentence but I can’t pass the occasion ..it…issss…immmpooosssiblllll to resiiiiiis….

« How dare you saying you know that game when I am AL200 and I have got a full year of gaming and you are what?? Only AL100 with 6 years of daily gameplay? How dare you saying you even play this game! »

Ok that’s it… had to be done.. I can go to sleep and forget this thread in peace.

[languid adder]

There will be a point where you will be oneshot regardless of equipment.
Thats why i said high anguish.

Instead of everybody shitting on +15% summon&pet stats per anguish level, just make a bit of math. I... cant understand how that is not clear.
And remember that it works with hydrus and quad scaling BP.

Im not saying nerf it, im saying im hyped to see that, and it will be fun.

[languid adder]

---

To solve the issue a bunch of people have with deep dungeons beeing atrocious to grind and not rewarding enough, even for beeing designed as low tier content, i propose:

A % bonus to deepshard gain linked to the path of melancholy.

Could we have a poll for that?

[naive lynx]

I was jk haha

[supple cape]

I wouldn't mind if something really funky was done with discovery dungeons to give them an anguish niche. Since they are just a series of single battles and digging chores, why not make the enemies really chaotic? And not only in a hard way. Maybe enemies starting with random buffs or debuffs, randomly using skills they don't normally have, dumb things like that. You don't get kicked out on a battle loss so you can dial some silly stuff up to 11.

[finite flint]

tbh what happened to me is I almost stopped playing right now because I have enough of changing dynamics in endgame. I need a clear path which won't be nerfed that I can pursue to optimize my time investment, and until we have some cleared elements so that I know what to pursue, with which class, in order to achieve something good, I won't invest time anymore. I have enough if the constant bickering of people with different opinions and so on. I need clarity and long term certainty to invest in s purely farming game. lay out the numbers and FIX THEM, then I brainstorm or learn from others whatever is best and I invest in that. enough of this changing of crucial endgame dynamics that determine the totality of what makes sense for people who already have been playing for 2+ years

[paper void]

A healthy endgame in any game is one that changes

Otherwise you have a stale endgame

[normal citrus]

slight problem is that once you ang gear you can't really refund, for all you know ss3 can be nuked next update and your ang1000 beguiled axe that sucked 7000 rore from you can just become useless

[paper void]

Nerfs bring items until the same realm as comparable items. If SS3 were useless after an adjustment, that would mean everything is useless

[sinful vapor]

But.. gilga ded? SS3 ded?

Me dying to 160k SS3 from a beoH with 70khp and 200kward: 🙄

[paper void]

Of course - everyone knows that things can’t be useable post nerf. Gilga is super dead and spiked shield doesn’t do more than 0 damage

[wide forum]

I am not going to bring Gilga talk into this thread but there definitely is some room for improvement.

[plush nimbus]

And then 689032 gilga related messages later

[daring terrace]

And yet somehow, everything in Orna always has to roll back into ascensions, and farming more ascensions, and getting rewarded for farming more ascensions

The irony of this in the anguish 2.0 thread is palpable

[plush nimbus]

I share the same feelings. It had a really good potential. Farming those new good looking anguish gear things, letting ascension on the side for a moment to slowly climb contents I like on ang2.0 and so on. The change in intents on the beta is, imho, far from the best for a "healthy endgame", and far from what ang2.0 was supposed to be when it was hyped imo.
(It doesn't mean I don't appreciate the huge amount of work done by NF/Odie, I'm still and will always be truly grateful for everything done, as it's F2P game, with great principles in a world - mobile game - full of debatable things)

[paper void]

re: beta - i don't think we're at the middleground just yet. still some work to come

[paper void]

i think if that's all folk _want_to do, perhaps we can just let them

but still make cool stuff adjacent to it

[plush nimbus]

Yes exactly, and knowing how you surprised me several times I have some good hope ! And it's also because it is beta that it's fine to also share curent feelings I guess. Good luck and best wishes to find the best for the game 💪🏻
Regarding what you just said to Rhino I don't fully agree Odie. I know you have the worst place, trying to have everyone ok, so I understand. But I guess you can also understand why we are several a bit worried currently. That beint said, thank you for letting the community sharing feelings, ideas, suggestions and so on, especially when it's probably really annoying for you being in the middle of all this ! So good luck and huge thanks again.

[daring terrace]

There isn't a single system in Orna that is ascension adjacent except for maybe BoF and that's been wholly ignored and abandoned by both you and the community outside of community.hosted tournaments.

Every sustem in the game does the same three things

• has a reward system that pushes ascension (orns and materials)
• gets faster and easier as more ascensions are earned, which in turn increases ascension speed
• can be brute forced by just getting more ascensions until 1 and 2 are true again

BoF only falls into the rewards category, but again, abandoned.

To pretend otherwise is to not play the game. Anguish 2 was supposed to be adjacent, but that died with shackles. It was going to buck the trend of ascensions being a self propelling machine (point 2) and it wasn't going to be brute forced with more ascensions (point 3). And then there were 10,000 messages complaining about that, and now ang 2 is just another ascensions system

[paper void]

i think that comment ignores my middleground comment above?

[plush nimbus]

Could we remove clown emote react from the anguish thread please ? Or I don't know, offer days in my classroom for people using it as they clearly missed some things 😐
(Woopsye it wasn t supposed to be an answer to Odie message*)
And thank you @naive stump

[paper void]

@naive stump please allow us all to voice our opinions without ridicule

[daring terrace]

It isn't something that can have a middle ground. It's either tied straight into acensions or not at all. If shackles are optional, it's an ascension system because all three things are once again true

I said it in the other thread and I'll say it here. A middle ground is just the system being mediocre at two things

I'll also add that we are already well past the point of anguish 2 being more lucrative than ang 1, especially with how easy agony is. Spamming ang 40 T8 raids is far superior to ang 1 dungs

Edit 2: and those rewards were with shackles. Imagine how good they'll be without

[normal citrus]

unfortunate truth

[raven bane]

My perspective is yeah, AL are tied into everything in the endgame, but that doesnt really mean the endgame is stale. Guilds were a good way to enable people to push endgame AL while enabling them to play the way they wanted, and there are a lot of different meta ways to push AL. Its like saying every endgame piece in 'other mmo' is tied directly to leveling, gearscore, etc, they're the underlying treadmill but there are a lot of ways to run it. A lot of people, based on the poll a large percentage, of players enjoy the sense of consistent progress.

My experience is that a lot of the anguish is more efficient to farm with shackles on, and will likely continue to be so with the beta changes.

[plush nimbus]

I think I understand - at least partly - why you changed the intent of anguish 2.0. But from my own perspective, this middleground result in a weird choice for players "like me" :

• go for the most "efficient" for progress, wich is clearly not the challenging one
• go for what ang2.0 was supposed to be, knowing it's not the most efficient, by far
  I have to say I had some hope to see ang2.0 resulting in not having to make this kind of weird choice, as I thought challenge would be the go to for progression "efficiency".
  (Efficiency is not my only concern when playing - if it was I would be agony 50 this month and 2k DM for memory event-, but it's part of the joy I have playing)
  Just to add some numbers to rhino agony vs ang1 dungeons : agony cheese is around 8/10 times better than ang1 dungeons taking into account main factors like scrolls farming and cost and so on. And I absolutely share Rhino concerns even more that we have those things available in game to cheese AL like crazy. It adds some more disapointement to the change made in beta.

[daring terrace]

Actually, this comment bugs the hell out of me.

Because if you actually wanted to let the people who only farm acensions continue to only farm ascensions, you wouldn't have touched shackles. You'd have left it as an actual adjacent system where ascension had a minor benefit, instead of reworking the whole thing

[paper void]

I’m just saying it’s in-progress work and shouldn’t be used to determine what live will look like

[paper void]

If Anguish wasn’t to be the next big endgame thing, I’d agree with you. But we can’t just rob 50% of the playerbase of it

[wanton raft]

My favorite thing in Orna was doing towers at Anguish 20 wearing wierd pieces of gear like ymir cliffside or arisen balor crown because they were perfect for my build.

I literally cant do that now. I have to regrind Anguish to get back to the point where the game was challenging and thought provoking.

Odie is trying to strike a balance so the journey for people who play ascended doesn't suck. The current version of shackles would just have everyone playing with all thier AL's in 2-4 months.

So the goal is that shackles stays less AL focused for longer and the ascended path isn't just boring. Its a good goal and i think we can get there.

[next flame]

I know I was adding to this, and stopped, however I feel that if people are upset with emojis and not the words being spoken there’s an issue. There’s a few people here who are just blatantly rude and disrespectful, and I see almost nothing done about how they speak about or to others. So I think there are other priorities than just being upset by emojis

[paper void]

i think it is a bit uncreative to say there can be no middleground.

the middleground is created by ensuring there is a value system on each side that meets the needs of this very divided community.

one that trades power for efficiency/rewards

one that trades efficiency/rewards for power

and, to continue to promote the intended way to enjoy the guild, an additional incentive to turn on shackles

if we're at a place where shackled play is objectively more rewarding, but the ascended can still use their power in their own worlds, we should all win. we don't need to let others enjoyment of ascension ruin our enjoyment of shackles

[plush nimbus]

If I may, your message (and your name tbh 😅) feels like all ascended people share your view about it.
It's not an high AL vs low AL debate. And on my side, and I guess Rhino and his 200 AL agree with me, it's more a debate of what we think would be the best for the game.

[wanton raft]

My name is that because i am on ORN advocating for a better ascended route. It was a contrast to Knights shackled title. Its just fun.

I am not claiming everyone who is ascended doesnt like shackled play. Its just people who want to use Ascensions and people who like Shackles both needing to find a middle ground.

[paper void]

i think it's more of a AL-advocate vs AL-accepter debate

[wanton raft]

To me personally Ascending is Orna. I know not everyone agrees but a big number does. But i also support capping AL's at 100 which i hear is not popular but I think that would be good for the game.

Point is there are lots of people playing Orna and opinions differ. So i genuinely hope there is good middle ground here.

[plush nimbus]

It would be good if you manage to achieve this. Because for now, imho, especially knowing how AL will play a role, it feels like the "power" way won't really trade efficiency/rewards. As stated - and by people ok with this change recently - efficiency is rewards/time.
But again, you surprised me/us many times before, and it's beta, so who knows.
Omnus, just in case, my message was not agressive, I know you also just try to have the best version of the game, I hope it's ok we don't share the same view about it for now. But we at least share the same passion for the wonderful game 😜

[normal citrus]

so after hitting al 100, what happens because i know ppl with like 300k cort (probably even more ppl that are high al in orna) with 199 full bis, where does the rest of the journey lie

that aside, can the slowmode be smth more reasonable like (max) 1min, hard to move conversations along in this current state

[wanton raft]

Goudine, I genuinely want you to have a great experience with Anguish 2.0 as well. I didn't vote to remove shackles because i think its actively good for the game if there is also that kind of content. I would say Knight is one of my closest Orna Friends and he doesn't care for ascending.

[wanton raft]

Harder question to answer. But if Odie told me he would cap Ascensions and the game needed a healthier endgame, then I would do everything I could to help him.

[bronze plinth]

Wouldnt al cap basicly do hard cap to anguish 2.0 or it increases the class power differences

[wanton raft]

Part of why we need to get through this is so dev time can go to class balance issues.

[short osprey]

I've said it in the past but, Ang2.0 honestly feels like a great system if you're a fresh T10 and gain ALs/levels alongside of increasing your anguish level. The shackles then make sense as then the player can't just solve their problems by just gaining more ALs. But it's jumping into Ang2.0 when you've already progressed to a certain point when issues arrive.

I could personally care less about the rewards or using ang2.0 to gain more ALs, I don't even mind playing with shackles on to a point. I just want to experience Ang2.0 at a difficulty that's for the point I am at in the game.
But "to a point" is the key word used above. It's taken me nearly 2 months of extreme amounts of extra grinding and I'm still barely over half way to being able to play at my designated level in 1 of the 4 paths.

I also want to make sure I make it clear as well, this isn't me saying it's too much of a grind overall, I love long grind where I slowly learn the ideal way to play/use new mechanics such as Ang gear. It's just the current version in live is too much of a grind to reach a point where progressing my Ang level feels satisfying/like I've actually overcome something and not like I'm trying to catch to where my current should be with the level of power I've reached.

[daring terrace]

Your mistake is assuming the people who want shackles are motivated by the effiency/rewards combo in the first place, and that is why the middle ground will always fail

I give exactly 0 frogs about what the rewards are for clearing anguish content. I wanted content that was challenging for everybody, all the time. So that the community could do the long form grind together and form the meta as we farmed through the ranks and everything got harder and harder.

I wanted a system where when somebody was sitting at ang 50 we all went "wow, thats some dedication and serious strategy to be able to clear that content." What i didnt want is to go "well yeah, they've got 300 ALs, they should be at ang 50"

There is such a massive difference between content that is challenging, always, for the sake of challenge, and a "it can be hard if you want". Both from a matter of gameplay, and how the community as a whole interacts with it.

But again, we can't have that, because we have to have ascension based rewards, and they they have to be get better with more ascensions, and they have to be able to be brute forced.

And if the issue people had was that it took to long to get to the challenge, then yall should have argued for a lessened grind. But all argued for shackles removal instead

[paper void]

Your mistake is assuming the people who want shackles are motivated by the effiency/rewards combo in the first place, and that is why the middle ground will always fail

i don't think any mistake was had here. i like shackles and don't give a frog about efficiency - i like challenge.

that doesn't mean others share my view, and thus creating as much incentive for those who care for rewards/efficiency (as to not create a balance disruption) is necessary.

players are very vocal about the efficiency difference in the current beta - that tells us that efficiency is a major motivation in the choice to shackle/unshackle. i'm unsure where you may have seen otherwise

There is such a massive difference between content that is challenging, always, for the sake of challenge, and a "it can be hard if you want". Both from a matter of gameplay, and how the community as a whole interacts with it.

yes and no. ascension doesn't brute force maluses. we all hit a difficulty wall

But again, we can't have that, because we have to have ascension based rewards,

no, we can't havemay not be able to have as much of that because nearly half the playerbase is saying they don't enjoy the gameplay. we don't have anything to support that this is 100% ascension motivated, and i'm inclined to believe it isn't

And if the issue people had was that it took to long to get to the challenge, then yall should have argued for a lessened grind. But all argued for shackles removal instead

there are so many players asking for a lessened grind as well. shackles is a hot topic, but not the only one

[merry mica]

@daring terrace you are 100% right about ascension and grinding and you’ve word it in a way I could have never done it. That’s the feeling of many of us, we had enough of this endless stupid grind. People act superior because they are doing 300 dungeons per day as opposed to people with real job and families and then come and shit on you saying you don’t know the game. That’s ridiculous.
I am missing the time when orna was a fun game that we would play for the sake of discovering new builds and mechanics and events. For the last 3 years it’s been « how to min max and grind more to grind more to grind more ». I was hopeful for anguish 2 but it’s again « how to get more mats with a different grinding system ».
I stopped trying to keep up and ascend, I never was really interested to ascend anyway starting from the fact all mats requirements are completely random and unique to your seed. Lately I only focus on making things for the fun of it… right now trying to build my own towers to 50f. Doing some endless… waiting for next event..

Anguish level 4 is more than enough to have stats on gear and make it funnier than just normal grinding and without thinking of shackles. Why would I try to make something I don’t enjoy doing (doing as many dungeon grinding per day as I can) even more difficult and painful for myself? Maybe if rewards were different than allowing you to « buy mats to ascend » then I would do more anguish.
The guild levels were a good idea. Lots of nice gifts when you reach new levels.
Stats on gear and random stats are a good idea!
Anguish is and was a good content and idea to start with. I just don’t understand why in the middle of it we got back to ascension grinding with materials in guild shop as a reward. Let’s just find other rewards that will make it worth it please.

[grave fulcrum]

I fear you may be the minority of the playerbase who wants ascending to be less important. Other rewards aren't really possible due to the nature of the game it really is grind dungeons raids towers and world farm for mats then grind endless for orns (or other ways to gain orns) and ascend if you removed the importance of ascending alot of the veterans, people who put in 10x as many hrs as the average player, would stop wanting to play because they just want to see number go up damage get bigger if that makes sense. I'm not sure there are ways to add other rewards that the playerbase would find acceptable that wouldn't be abused by the extreme players so it would be a miserable grind to get those things for the average playerbase while making the extreme player base have a defined speed

[plush nimbus]

Imho the current live version has good potential and would just need some fix here and there to be really nice. Ang gear, schakles, are here in addition to AL which is no more the only main go to. I fear what will come next will be just what we had before and was supposed to be changed with ang2.0. it's not a question of how many of this or this players do, it's about what we would like for the future of the game. Just like said before, there are people of high middle and low AL and high middle and low playtime on both sides. As someone who spend lot of time on the game, I wish ang2.0 will remain on something with balanced challenge, with the fun to not only "focus" on AL and so on. AL is part of the "fun" I guess, but I hope it won't have all the focus.

[merry mica]

Sure I may be in minority. We used to play orna on a daily basis without having the ascension stick and carrot too you know. It’s just that the player base has changed.
Min maxing is a plague in the gaming community as a whole and is destroying almost every single game in the industry. People start playing more and more in solo games because they had enough of min maxing and following guide on gaming websites.
I see it the same way here, people just want to min maxing everything and it’s destroying the gaming fun experience just for some numbers. Sad.

[full peak]

Reason why i stop playing MMOs years back and play only single player games occassioanaly ....and Orna.

[broken pike]

Why is it destroying your experience if you're pve focused? Most big AL players aren't heavily involved in pvp. If you want a challenge, give yourself a challenge. If others want to grind and min max that's their prerogative

[merry mica]

Because everything is targeted to ascension. Simple as that. You can’t  tell me it doesn’t affect me whatever the community is doing

[broken pike]

Your game play doesn't have to be.

[merry mica]

Wether we want it or not, ascension is always in Odie’s mind when releasing content. Because it’s part of the game and as you say it is what majority wants. So, of course, there will be tuning and content targeted to that. And because it’s kinda the only endgame for a long while that’s the target for a while. Cf. The posts from Rhino above that sums it up.

[grave fulcrum]

the only thing als effect is balance stuff for new content and its strength but realistically its the people who minmax everything that effect the availability of what you can do for example event content is balance around a middle ground of min/maxers and average player

[broken pike]

You can still engage with the content the way you want. Don't ascend. Don't min max. Try new builds. The motto is play your way now, right?

[merry mica]

That’s exactly what I am doing. You are right.
I just pester because I want different rewards and endgame loops for ppl that are like me.

[broken pike]

It sounds like your endgame loop is giving yourself a challenge which is possible to do. I don't see why rewards need to be any different for anyone, honestly. The grinders will always hit those higher level rewards faster in every game that exists

[merry mica]

It’s fun grinding for sprites, new gear, new weapons or stats on weapon.
When you don’t really ascend, it’s lame grinding to get mats that are useless then. 🤣

[plush nimbus]

If we follow this, then we don't need balance for anything, we can remove all thread and so on.
Thing is, it impacts the way the game is played (cf. what happened for fishing - stated as the worst content regarding fun on a poll long ago, who became suddenly something massively played, and I doubt it was because it suddenly became more fun).
If Odie decide tomorrow to give 10 ascension level for each slime killed, there will indeed surely be people who won't care at all about this change, but there will also have people leaving the game I guess - may be wrong tho.
Min-max will always be a thing, and I m fine with it. It doesn't mean it's fine to give too much easy way to skyrocket, because again, it tend to impact the way people play, the time people will keep playing the game and so on, and you can't just ignore it, as we re living in a world were people can be upset for cosmetic badges, we can think what we want about it, but we can't say it doesn't exist, I guess

[left mauve]

Oh damn.
Deity nerf thread as become "Cry a river about every classes in the game"
Anguish thread as become "We all hate Ascension"

Maincord really became "special" lately

[merry mica]

You can’t tackle anguish without speaking about ascension. You can’t speak of class balance without speaking of ascension. Sorry 😔

But hey if that can make you feel better about it, most of the time you can’t speak in maincord because people shut you down 2 min after you write something interesting. Just because you don’t go with the « white warriors of orna ». At least few people have been able to say their piece with a reasonable discussion since yesterday. So… that’s a plus in my books 🥹

[turbid sedge]

I had to talk about this on the maincord aethric but people started to scatter in the conversation

I had to talk about having agony proof based on HP raids

less pv it has, less you earn proofs, which concisely reduces the farm of jormu t8
and incites the farm to big raids with lots of HP

[full peak]

T8 Jorm has more hp than lot of T10 raids.... 😅

[turbid sedge]

then raids t10 with little HP will yield almost nothing

The goal of anguish is to have an easy farm or rather to look for difficulty and to surpass oneself?

[left mauve]

then it will loop back to "yeah but we got like 70% of t8 or T9 when we spawn scrolls, not fair and not engaging"

[merry mica]

If you’re t11 I don’t know why it’s really relevant to farm t8 scrolls.

Also maybe Odie should add some kind of difficulty factor in the raiding system. We all know some raids are much more difficult than others even at the same tier. Maybe we could skew the rewards based on that aspect?

[full peak]

That is real hell. Years people farm those raids, not really like it, but being in peace with it. Now they got HUGE rewards for them, which clearly have to be toned down - everybody sane has to see it - and they are "DONT TOUCH IT, THIS IS PERFECT". 🤦‍♂️

[next flame]

I thought T8 jorm only had 4.8m health? With a few event raids being around 2-4m, most nonevent raids at t10 have anywhere between 5-12m, not including morri and Amorri right? Which ones have less than t8 jorm?

[next flame]

Sounds like karma to me honestly.

[left mauve]

Karma for what? Being T11 ?

[next flame]

I’m meaning karma in the sense that if the proposed hp change were to take place and the people who did farm t8 jorm scrolls started complaining. I’d just say it’s karma for cheesing the system

[sinful vapor]

To create a gameplay system that is not tied up to ALs would require identifying the desired rewards that are not ALs, then crafting systems around them. Not exactly on-topic for this thread, but...

A few options to explore off the top of my head:

• Large amounts of cosmetics obtainable only through grinding a certain guild. Not every guild needs to sell mats; a guild could be made to only include other rewards. Prime candidates for this type of rework (if not a new guild) are spelunking and fishing.
• Leaderboard rankings. Bragging rights are a strong motivator; a new ranking for some activity reworked to be exciting and fresh content, and does not involve ALs/provide mats. BoF is a strong contender for this rework, as are kingdoms.
• Town decorations/upgrades/QoL. There are a ton of possiblities that could be implemented into the game via some kind of Township guild, questing guild, whatever - tangible, useful upgrades that would not relate to ALs (think further upgrades to OT buildings, unlocking new buildables, using residents to get you something, or just unique OT decor).

[merry mica]

Even selling some special tools that would change your gear/weapons in a different way would be also a cool reward. To be defined ofc.

[broken pike]

Regardless if the minority want what they think is the right direction of the game, it needs to be looked at from a business owner stand point. Odie himself has said he prefers difficulty over efficiency, but if the majority of his player base does not want that, he is not going to kill his game over it. Sure there is polling, yeah it influences decisions, but at the end of the day he also has the numbers on things we don't see and will need to make changes he sees fit regardless of player sentiment. If ang 2.0 is losing players, it needs adjustments. Same way players will leave once 1.0 is removed fully - if it ever is. The goal is to minimize losses. There can still be balance, the conclusions being drawn up are based off what a very small amount of players have achieved through cheese or other means and I think it's very over dramatized. I die a ton on agony 9. I die on melancholy 7. I haven't cheesed my way through upgrading gear with easy raids though. I don't really care if there are players that have. Those players tend to burn out faster - also ignoring the fact that people have been stock piling scrolls for a year+ in anticipation of ang 2.0 and the super fast agony leveling is mainly a result of that. If someone just started and farmed t8 jorm scrolls, they still wouldn't be close to the level of those that have saved up for a year. You're talking tens of thousands of scrolls. Pretty sure a very high AL player got to lvl 9 despair in a 24 hr period. That's likely shackled. The bigger issue with the imbalance is the handful of classes that are able to bypass all maluses in anguish content allowing them to excel. Take care of that issue and shackled vs unshackled isn't going to hurt as much as people think

[merry mica]

I agree with your post. For the most part , because I want to add a small thing to that is that some people like me don’t like the direction of the game for a long while because of ascension but we keep on connecting to the game and do the events regardless. So… on a « stats » perspective Odie is not losing me. I even pay for every event to have sprites and keys etc… which means I support the game regardless because I reward the hard work the team is putting.
So it appears as if I agree with the direction but I don’t.
That’s why I’m bitching here in polls and maincord so my voice is not lost in stats. Yeah I may be stupid to continue playing but I enjoy the game and I still hope there will be different content if enough people bring it up. And also people tell me to stop playing for a few months… that’s hypocrite… I don’t want to miss out for months of content and game just for the sake of it. But I agree with your other statements.

[trim breach]

Totally understand that things can be frustrating, and there's stuff that won't work perfectly from a chosen solutions perspective.
What we do want to do as best as we can though, is stick to productive problem solving if we can.

Frustration expressing should go hand in hand with the solve to that frustration, to save us getting into back and forth.

I think it may be getting to time to separate the thread into the different things that people are trying to tackle with Anguish 2.0, rather than have it lumped together.
Shackles is definitely part of the equation, and is being tackled now in beta.

So let's maybe start some separated threads:

• [Anguish 2.0] Path Steps
• [Anguish 2.0] Proof Economy
• [Anguish 2.0] Shackles
  etc

Would that work for people?

[supple cape]

You are right to complain here. The discussion in the beta thread before I left taught me something: if you quietly enjoy content in this game, you are a chump whose voice will be ignored. Watching the discussion go from "high AL players refuse to engage with shackles" to "JK we'll do it if you slip a 20 to us under the table now that we dominate the whole system" will never cease to amaze me.

[paper void]

please remember that our betas are very active and full of experimentation. please don't take anything as the final version until it is confirmed to be final by the studio

[supple cape]

Godspeed Odie. I hope you have another vacation lined up for next month.

[merry mica]

The annoying part of those beta is to use my old android phone once in a while when they come because my phone is an iPhone 🤣 and we don’t do beta on iPhones…

[next flame]

https://tenor.com/view/he-has-a-point-gif-21949559

[languid adder]

You were, but others werent. ^^"

[nimble dirge]

From what I've heard, testflight which you use for iphone beta testing is a pain in the arse compared to going through google playstore beta testing. It has much more strict requirements.

[oak axle]

I'd like to talk about a kingdom map overlay, something more mmo style. Maybe a different ascension were you keep your inventory but after 250 you can choose to ascend and restart. Something like lvl 250 then ascend 0-250 +1, ascend 0-250 +2, ect... maybe a trading post. How about a floor option for mist/gob dungeons to go back to the mmo party.

[grave fulcrum]

This is really bad for als because this is giving idle game ascensions and if I wanted that I'd go play an idle game that doesn't take you actually playing.... This would be so bad because cheaters would speed run the automation.

[merry mica]

As opposed to now where they speed bot fishing and towers. 😂

[grave fulcrum]

easier to detect that than it is to detect alting with botting to power level 1 character

[merry mica]

Don’t know man, it’s pretty much out there. Also I wonder if Odie actually can do anything about bot fishing because otherwise he wouldn’t have bothered putting a 500/d limit

[languid adder]

I think there is a lot of things that can be done against botting, but it would require the dedication of resources.
But as there is only a small amount of players who actually care, action is not taken.
Also the amount of players we would lose if ToS is actually enforced, is BIG.

[full peak]

Eh? Did I miss something? I thought ToS and rules are followed normally and enforced pretty regularly?

[languid adder]

Do you remember Mjölnir?

Also its anguish channel i just realised we should take thos somewhere else

[trail radish]

This is not the place for this topic y'all.

[merry mica]

Whoops.
Moving on…

[oak axle]

The thread is dead.

[upbeat gorge]

The thread is an ongoing discussion for Live Anguish. It's not supposed to have players constantly chatting the same things over and over again, at least until the next changes go to Live.

[languid adder]

Major things are shackles & karmic rn, and were discussing that somewhere else
We will surely come back to this here

[trim breach]

Probably best to let moderators, moderate ;)

[merry mica]

Speaking of karmic retribution, I am still early on with my mirror on beta but does the reward scale after a certain anguish level or is it always the same ?

[dim jacinth]

seems like they are fixed values

[merry mica]

It did seem to fill up quite fast, but maybe it’s on purpose for the beta. I figured out after a few raids I could use the buff. It is an incentive to use anguish. That’s a welcomed addition. I still advocate for new rewards in the guild too :p

[short osprey]

#1394382336535302225 message

[merry mica]

Thanks!

For the sake of testing they could also let us ascend anguish much faster than having to farm all those tokens to go from one anguish to the next

[supple cape]

Hey NF, how close are we to hitting the anguish bonuses/maluses affecting followers discussion?

Anguish bonuses: I put def/res pen on my weapon thinking it would affect my follower a while ago, but it does nothing for my follower as of now. I don't want to waste crucibles changing it if it's going to be changed in an update or two.
Follower maluses: I've set up my agony level maluses as though they affect followers, only recently learning that they in fact do not. Same as above, don't want to pathspur if this will be looked at soon.

I think it's completely fair that bonuses affect followers if maluses do as well, since maluses will pile up really quickly at higher levels... and let's be real, Beo is strong in anguish content now because a huge part of our power is untouched by maluses. Just looking for a heads up on where you are with it, thanks.

[paper void]

happy to explore this after we’re done with shacklegate

[supple cape]

Sounds good, thanks Odie.

[languid adder]

Shacklegate... Im dying

[summer folio]

https://tenor.com/view/nixon-gif-17156327119933290359

[storm wadi]

Can despair also get a bit more love and have the paths increase the proof % by 1/1.5 instead of 0.5/1. It's, probably, the path that requires the most time investment and the % increase doesn't really feel all that different between levels. The chance of mobs dropping 2-3 was a nice change but it feels like the drops are heavily weighted to 1 proof.

[languid adder]

The amount of drops didnt change - it just rolls 3 times x%
If more rolls hit, you get multiple proofs.

But the chance of getting zero decreased by 2 times

[supple cape]

I don't even know if despair should get more proofs or not, but it really needs some spice injected into it. It's like the most nutritious, yet most bland and tasteless porridge bowl you have ever had in your life.

[harsh geyser]

unless people have different numbers, I've found despair to be more profitable in terms of proofs/time than melancholy and torment (and all a good distance behind agony of course).

but yeah, it's like watching paint dry. minutes feel like hours 1shotting world mobs 😅

[wanton raft]

it might be that world farming just needs an update that makes it more exciting and interesting in general

[raven bane]

The standard riftbreaks could use a refresh

[supple cape]

I made an off-hand comment earlier about giving discovery dungeons an anguish niche and making them chaotic, but you could probably do that for despair instead. Maybe something like having a second berserk-style system where a monster gets a despair aura which makes it stupidly more difficult in some random way, but more rewarding for the despair track or something. Or maybe you get ambushed by surprise horde fights. Anything really.

[trail radish]

I gotta say though, I don't see how its much different from doing Normal Dungeons?
Themed Dungeons, sure, those are definitely more interesting. Like world farming in various weather Riftbreaks.
But personally feel like 1-shotting in dungeons for an hour is the exact same as 1-shotting world mobs for an hour.
Its certainly not the EoD drops, cause those don't change the monotony at all, they just make it more worthwhile.

I'm absolutely on board for more interesting fights, no matter where they are though.

[harsh geyser]

Thankfully I'm a grand summoner, so 1 shotting dungeon floors isn't really a thing under anguish. 🙃

At a wider level, the big difference is that there's no real failure penalty for world mobbing (and raiding) unlike dungeons and especially towers, so players are incentivized to run maximum glass cannon which brings the 1 shot into easy range.

In terms of making despair more interesting, I think the fights themselves could get mutators (like what Drel is saying) so that it's not just the same ~8 world mobs solo over and over again. I've mentioned tying riftbreak to Despair several times; seems like a slam dunk in terms of both rewarding people finding riftbreaks irl and also changing up the enemies that players fight. Beyond changing the enemy selection, rewarding not dying might be an interesting thought (something like a chain bonus); adding a failure penalty could actually help here.

To reiterate though: I don't think Despair needs more proofs/time. It needs to be more engaging, so it'd be something like lowering the base rate and adding a chain bonus to keep the rates roughly the same as current; or lowering the base rate and adding supermobs that drop bonus despair proofs to keep the rates roughly the same.

And last thoughts on it -- I like that despair/agony are single-target focused whereas melancholy/torment are aoe focused. It'd be kinda bunk to change despair to be just another aoe thing ||and saying this while knowing that people are already doing exactly this with alts...||.

[next flame]

Like a raiding party idea? Like rift breaks but with goals behind them? I mean we have origin towns, we could have a mechanic where the Ot is raided and you have to defeat x amount of this enemy, then a stronger monster appears (like a lieutenant) once you defeat that enemy, another group appears and once you defeat them you fight the final boss(general) you get more rewards/a buff? Just an idea I had for engagement

[languid adder]

Oneshotting in dungeons doesnt have a buttload of menuing added on top of them, and that you have to search a mob, hold on it and pray to RNGsus that you dont get a "waiting for server" between it.

I would say that makes dungeons 10 times more reasonable and fun at minimum

[stone drum]

Has anyone mapped out the potential benefits you get on your anguished gear? More specifically is it possible to get summon stats on all your armor?

[grave fulcrum]

@bronze plinth
sorry for ping but i didnt know answer but knew you had experience with that kinda gear

[sturdy stump]

you only get bonus summon stats from items that already have summon stats built in

[stone drum]

Thank you!

[snow burrow]

Are Ang follower stats actually working? A 40Ang Baton + 40Ang Aengus Lute is weaker than a Celestial Lute + Arisen Shield.

[short osprey]

They seem to be working in the beta, but I'm not too sure about live, but in both versions neither show up in the follower stats screen https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1381299964235223081

[supple cape]

So back to the topic of followers and maluses: It seems I was wrong and followers are indeed affected by stuff like elemental maluses etc. It was the crit malus that had been brought up in a suggestion, specifically pertaining to ASG. ASG cannot scale crit with gear (no bonded crit) so it can only gain crit from buffs and temp buffs; is the thought that your total current crit should be lowered by the crit malus, or your inherent gear-based crit?

[bronze plinth]

I dont mind my pets being affected by crit maluses if it also gives access to crit scalings that i can build for

For examble crit dmg. Crit dmg - and+ should affect your pets

[sinful vapor]

Dungeons give a lot more dopamine and a sense of progression. Each dungeon has a defined start/middle/end, defined amount of dungeons you can run at a time, and feel satisfying to complete and see all the rewards at each stage.

Despair is... none of those things. One enemy at a time, never-ending, minimal rewards. No dopamine or sense of progression.

[pearl mango]

The %1 per anglvl boost on martyr gear does that apply to pet stats and summon stats aswell?

[normal citrus]

I mean it's a stat bonus so I doubt it

[echo haven]

wait, what the hell.. how is the follower/summon bonus so high

[steep jetty]

follower/summons stat bonus is 3% per ang level, its also only on gear that has those as the innate bonus

[bronze plinth]

That is basicly a must have for pet classes to deal enough dmg in ang 2.0. Bc in beta the 1% scaling per lvl was too low and pet class was basicly unplayable. So it was changed into 3%
(Summoner auriga was having same issue)

[pearl mango]

Odie when you fixing pet stats from anguish bonus im trynna explore builds fr

[normal citrus]

never "fix" it, if the devs fix that thing beoa is just z+ tier

[sonic summit]

aren't they just visually bugged in stats?

[bronze plinth]

Eh beoA will not be z tier

[supple cape]

It's understandable that they think that, us Beos start in a strong position at low anguish. They just don't know that we only scale with 1/3 of the anguish bonus stats that anguish gear gives everyone.

[pearl mango]

Can we delete deity already

[merry mica]

As soon as we have deleted Beowulf, heretic and gilga 😉

[normal citrus]

piss gear, already getting high al in raids

[bronze plinth]

With t8 jorm abuse yes. +stasis

[plush nimbus]

Mod, please so something, we've here someone calling "abuse" an absolutely fair game mechanic

(Please help me I am being held prisoner and I am being forced to say this)

[bronze plinth]

I mean i dont personally mind the jorm anguish spam. But it makes me mad when ppl call beoA broken bc someone spams t8 jorms to reach high agony.

[sturdy stump]

why not tho? It would get a lot of stat bonuses from anguish, and it barely gets hurt by malsues

[normal citrus]

they get to high agony, and then raid legit raids there

[bronze plinth]

Sure but it does not make beo broken if they can beat raids with stasis...

[bronze plinth]

Bc most pets lack penetration

[normal citrus]

off stasis ofc

[bronze plinth]

Sure i want to see a asg run in ang 40 with broken dmg and no stasis and high defences/ward

[supple cape]

BeoA does all of its damage through a follower. Followers get ~1/3 of your total magic transferred to it through the bonded attack/magic passive (a tad more if you use fey gerd pieces), so we only scale with 1/3 of the bonus anguish stats we get.
Every other class outside of summoner scales with 100% of their bonus anguish stats: that is the issue.

[sturdy stump]

but anguish follower stats is a thing

[supple cape]

Yes, that is the fix to the issue.

[bronze plinth]

This dude wants that fix to not exist

[sturdy stump]

I just dont think classes are balanced properly with respect to anguish maluses. As a heretic I get destroyed by crit and elemental maluses. Meanwhile beos and gilgas basically dont get impacted? Obviously thats unfair considering those classes can be much tankier as well

[bronze plinth]

Well beos cant even build for crit dmg...

[sturdy stump]

yet its still one of the best raiding classes in non-anguish content

[supple cape]

Like I understand, I will give the benefit of the doubt to those who are frustrated that a class that is strong at raiding is getting a scaling buff to their raiding in anguish. If you take issue with, for example, ASG not being impacted by crit maluses... then you have to push for total overall crit raiting to be affected by the malus, as we can't scale ASG crit with anything other than buffs (it has no bonded crit passive, so our gear doesn't affect that).

[bronze plinth]

Well non anguish raids have no scaling defences to nullify follower dmg?

[supple cape]

FWIW we get affected by the element maluses too, if I want to raid with towerfall I have to hard avoid every secondary element malus.

[normal citrus]

and followers don't get outscaled in any reasonable ang level

[sturdy stump]

if you are building for statis debuff, then I guess you can build for res downs as well, or is that not possible?

[bronze plinth]

You cant build ress-- and stasis in same build

[supple cape]

In our case it's easy because our only usable towerfall weapon (finesse's enchanted epee) brings that. if it didn't we'd have to waste an adorn slot for it, which isn't terrible. however that weapon is unusable for other raid builds like ASG.

[bronze plinth]

Only res- and rare t.res--via adorns

[left mauve]

this thread cant go on 50 message without ending in someone asking for a nerf of another class or skill/spell

[supple cape]

One other thing I'll point out: Some of the Beos I've seen at real high agony are duo raiding, which removes basically all of the class's anguish weaknesses. I was chatting with lover above about this since he said that double epee towerfall with gerd gear is absurdly powerful in high agony (~30)... however when I try to use that solo at agony 10 I get tossed in the dumpster by any non-threatening boss

[bronze plinth]

Broken beo as we can see

[supple cape]

No berserk? I can't believe you are sandbagging in front of everyone.

[bronze plinth]

If beo is broken i should not need berzerks to deal dmg right? Vs t8 fenja

[pearl mango]

Just get a stasis buddy and see your ultima 2 go brrr

[supple cape]

And if stasis gets nerfed, it will turn into "proper tank with provoke + dps" party to separate damage from survivability.

[bronze plinth]

Yea

[pearl mango]

I do see his point tho me and my duo ultima lost a significant amount of dmg while trying so hard to avoid the crit maluses

[supple cape]

From the crit rate loss or the crit damage loss?

[pearl mango]

Element dmg maluses

[bronze plinth]

As it should bc you can literally build both crit% and dmg, elemental dmg for ultima

[supple cape]

Ah, ultima literally can't avoid getting hit because it scales from everything.

[pearl mango]

Crit maluses are impossible to pick for a crit build picking them isnt choosing difficulty its just choosing death at that point

[cyan mason]

50 messages . You're a kind person.

Maluses impact more builds than classes. And then they impact everyone like that stupid malus called permanent fade %. It doesn't impact despair dand torment path cuz u either have too many bonuses or none at all. It should either be removed completely or changed toward something else. Or make it it doesn't proc every time you hit one monster (one roll), or everything hit you at once (turn 2 of fight)

[pearl mango]

The only malus ill never choose doing high ang raids take some time and if buffs fade with that its so goddamn annoying

[supple cape]

Like ASG has to avoid basic ele maluses too, but its impact is kind of minimal because the malus is spread between every element. I could see a good case for a crit damage malus affecting ASG's overall damage, just a crit rate malus doesn't make sense with how it can only scale crit rate with buffs.

[bronze plinth]

I mean if asg did scale from crit dmg it would make sense

[supple cape]

The hard part about this discussion is that we can speak about all of this stuff and it can seem reasonable, but anguish 2.0 is currently such a black box overall that few have climbed high in. If you ever actually sit down and spreadsheet the crap out of the stats to understand them you can easily come to the realization that things make sense later on, I know I did when I started to figure out how anguish stats add in to follower damage this weekend.

[sturdy stump]

Am I really forced to cheese the content to be able to play it properly

[bronze plinth]

Its same for all

[next flame]

That’s my problem. That’s the problem I had from the beginning. It’s just going to become a Wisconsin Cheese Festival for everybody.

[bronze plinth]

Not for me tho. I will solo even if its not efficient

[pearl mango]

Theres only very few ways to do anguish raids without stasis in high anguish

[bronze plinth]

I only duo if someone needs help with raids

[pearl mango]

Either stasis or die twice per raid

[naive lynx]

walks in with SS3, here to serve!

[full peak]

Is that turtle build trying to prove Beo doesn't have dmg? I'm confused. I would do similar dmg on my full BoF or mage with those kind of buffs.

[bronze plinth]

Thats ward build. Which is very normal for asg. Sure we can increase the dmg by going full glass. But that is mostly a death wish with asg

[full peak]

Well, that's 300k ward. That's a lot. I'm running with 60-90k ward (apart AMorri) against raid on that agony. 🤷‍♂️

[bronze plinth]

And going tf as full glass is much better bc your pet does not status you to death

[full peak]

There is usually some middle way between going full ward and full glass cannon. 👀 Yet again, my dmg beeing in one or other is also wildy different....so showing full turtle with un-neccesarry amount of ward saying you don't have enough dmg ...is weird.

(not want to say beo raiding is easy, just saying your screen is misleading)

[bronze plinth]

I do that too with tf. But for asg build. 60k is too low when you are trying to redline while asg has pen issues and raids are hitting hard. While also asg has chance to give you burn(reduced offencive power), para and frozen that can be lethal

Not to mention that we have ward protection maluses so db does not give 100% abs

[full peak]

semi-turtle swash dmg low - having gunnr/zerk1/zerk2 more than you and my turtle dmg is lower than yours fr ...with your buffs it would be only 600k dmg 🤷‍♂️ ....well even less, cuz burn on top of that

[bronze plinth]

But thats amorri. Amorri would 0 asg. I was fighting t8 fenja...

[full peak]

so we can call it similar dmg with less ward build on swash?

[bronze plinth]

I bet you can do alot more dmg vs t8 fenja

[full peak]

2,1 mil with DC/zerk1/gunnr ...so yea, it would be higher than yours, but again, also zero def and half your ward ...and it is semi-ward-swash ...can go more turtle, with even lesser dmg (probably as "low" as yours") and higher ward, or full attack

[bronze plinth]

Menja wasnt even defending... i switched in some follower stats aswell...

Asg is not as broken as ppl think.

My dmg basicly became worse bc now i was fighting a t10 raid.

[full peak]

asg base mag is that low?

With base mag 7000, chakram have same M1 as big Fey spells. I dont have any difference between T8 or T10.

Final dmg having a lot of crit dmg on top of that (x3.47) true...but Fey being better dmg than chakram in base.

[bronze plinth]

Critdmg does boost your dmg alot.

Asg base mag is okay, it just lacks multipliers in the long run. Maybe full gerd can keep it in check bc bonded stats.

[full peak]

You sure?

[bronze plinth]

Thats not a crit

[full peak]

Yes, and its much higher dmg than your asg dmg even without crit. So the difference here are only buffs (i have 1 more zerk) and base mag.

[bronze plinth]

7000mag?

[full peak]

Thats almost double that, took hybrid lute ... 😅

[peak pond]

That is w/o cele weapon and no tamer spec (chrono because I usually raid towerfall/stasis)

[bronze plinth]

You are redlined. Both gunrik and i did not have redlines

[peak pond]

True, but is would say: usually you will always redline as BeoA...

[bronze plinth]

And tmag++/+ is also noted

Yes we do redline. But that still does not make asg op if we have to redline to get in par with others?+ alot temp ups.

[peak pond]

But I would say around 2-3 Mio damage are quite normal for asg. But I agree, that still does not make asg overpowerd. Usually I even don't play asg 😉

[full peak]

DAra can't really redline, right? Only for huge HP raids. 😄

[bronze plinth]

Does dara even have redline

[full peak]

Pasivline? Who cares. Up DAra passive on raids takes dozens of turns. Well, dozen it is for 40%. 😄

[bronze plinth]

Thats the point. 2-3m with fully buffed and redline and some pet stat gear does not make asg op. I personally dont use asg at all. And gurnik isnt dara a blueline class(idk bc i dont have dara)

[peak pond]

No, it can charge apexskills, and if used the stats increase. Up to 100% - which takes a while...
More useful for endless.

[bronze plinth]

Makes sense.

[full peak]

Or just swap to Heretic (AL0), could use that 4x in row. 🤪

[bronze plinth]

And asg is op
Lets nerf pet stat gear then

[full peak]

And that's not full dmg build. Had 2h staff. Could have 1h+BegX and seqeencer spec for more dmg. 😄 But 0 AL is way too low stats for this ang already ...needed that ward.

[bronze plinth]

Yeah lets nerf pet stats bc beoA is op op