Anguish Live Feedback

[pearl mango]

Not including scrolls

Not including event currencys

[plush nimbus]

And is it how anguish 2.0 supposed to be working when killing trash raids is better than anything else ?

You know what is the average for AL 200? Nearly 140k of each IIRC from what I removed

[left mauve]

why the hell do you keep saying that ? Rare mat are not coming from dungys at all

[plush nimbus]

Saying dungeons are good is fine, I don't even care if they stat as it is, problem is when you have something else available that is SO FCKING CRAZY GOOD.

[pearl mango]

You get 1-3 of all mats guaranteed by the end of every dungeon

[plush nimbus]

And that's what agony path allow

[pearl mango]

@left mauve as it shows in his screenshot of mats coming from 1 dungeon

[plush nimbus]

That's also a big fake : on horde T11 regular dungeons it's something around 25 mats TOTAL. There are 60 mats in the game, so it's not even half/dungeon

[left mauve]

one raid is 30-40 Seconds for 10-20 mats, not even on the same dimension

• proofs

[pearl mango]

30/40seconds for WHO?

again targeting numbers coming from certain ppl

[plush nimbus]

Again, if you want to, show me the proof/hour big boosted dudes can get from dungeons

That's not even close to what you can expect from this raid thing

Far far far from it

[pearl mango]

I mean this is one guy from hoa hes been 28melanchy for like 5 days now since he stopped farming for now

Similair level to those crazy agony gains you talking abt

[plush nimbus]

You have travelers guild in HoA ?

[pearl mango]

Orna mb*

But yeah point still stand

[plush nimbus]

Not similar, from the one and only (for now) 25+ seen on orna, compared to many more 25+. And guess what ? Wait for a few more days and you ll see plenty on agony

As you re talking here about someone who spent hundreds hours on dungeons. It's not needed at all for agony, and can't be compared

[pearl mango]

Thats just ppl playing the game and investing i dont get the issue

[pearl mango]

??????

I spent hours a day raiding for 2weeks

[plush nimbus]

I mean at some point, for someone talking about math earlier, it's a bit weird seing you still comparing what can't be

[pearl mango]

To get agony 19

Youre acting like agony doesnt take time effort investing in builds or nothing just straight up free rewards

[languid cave]

Wait so you saying the expectations to play HOA religiously? Isn't majority of the players casual

[plush nimbus]

That's not what I m saying. I m saying the effort are not even close to what you have to do on other path

And other path don't have / for now / same way to skip difficulty as what you can do via agony

[pearl mango]

Skip difficulty?

[plush nimbus]

I spend hours and hours a day running dungeons

[languid cave]

Grind isn't difficult it's burn out inducing

[plush nimbus]

And if talking about efficiency, I would just stop running dungeons and go straight into this agony thing

[pearl mango]

Like i dont think you guys understand it takes around 8000raids to reach anguish 50 doing each raid at current anguish with current rates

Solo

[plush nimbus]

Do I really want to ? No, as It's not anguish, it's absurdly strong compared to the effort and so on

[pearl mango]

Good spend all your scrolls leveling up agony

Then go back to dgs to get more scrolls

So you can get proofs

[plush nimbus]

Do the calculation for dungeons, fun fact : here again, the time to reach one versus the other is just not even close

[harsh geyser]

What does any of that have to do with path v. path comparisons?

[pearl mango]

How many dgs it took you for ang24

[pearl mango]

?????? Me stating how much raids=effort it takes to level up my path isnt comparison?

[plush nimbus]

As math are easy sometimes : if you can get way more from one path compared to another on the same time spent, you ll reach ang 50 way quicker on one path vs another. So what you re talking about here doesn't change anything about the comparison stated before. If one is much better, it is just...much better

[harsh geyser]

we're comparing the time it takes to reach ang50 in each path?
okay, agony takes the least time. (by a lot)

[pearl mango]

Okay torment takes the most time

Likee what

[harsh geyser]

okay so clearly agony is too rewarding

[pearl mango]

What are we talking about

THERE IS ALLWAYS GONNA BE A BEST PATH

All 4paths rely on different type of progression

You cant make them all equal

[turbid sedge]

On hoa 2300

[left mauve]

its about the margin. ATM agony is faster by a massive margin

[plush nimbus]

We re not even saying other path are trash. They are cool IMHO and fine as they are, but keeping agony as it is would just completely broke game economy, as for several players here, agony is much too strong, and we re not hoping for other path to match with it

[harsh geyser]

I can tell you're emotional about this, but agony could lose half their proofs today and still be the fastest path by a lot.
And the reason it matters is that proofs are used for things other than leveling up the path.

[left mauve]

unlimited VoG, HoA not relevant

[pearl mango]

Acting like wayvessels with infinite dgs an hour doesnt exist

[left mauve]

for VoG? it doesnt exist.

[turbid sedge]

There are technically more dungeon possibilities on orna, I saw it when I exp with goudine

But let's not stray from the subject

[left mauve]

yeah, i'll trash talk you somewhere else

[plush nimbus]

But DO THE MATH you re talking about. I ll tell you : on max drop rate (anguish 45+, meaning 100% drop rate, you would need 67 dungeons to match the number shared here and available already on live via agony on anguish ....20 😱

So show me the dude anguish 45+ spamming 67 dungeons an hour and I ll be a bit better

[nocturne night]

Alright folks, to keep things more constructive and more on topic, rather than with fast quick and short messages, I'll be putting in slow mode. Make your messages count, and explain your points of view nicely and concisely.

(And to the slowmode immune people, please don't abuse it to drown other people out)

[pearl mango]

🦛that just means melanchy is not rewarding enough

[languid cave]

After some time I have a new hot take, I don't mind an agony catch up event I like duos and more ppl means more viable party's

[plush nimbus]

Agony path is much better than any other path, allowing to farm rewards with a way better rate. As they are also easy way available to target some raids, it creates a massive gap between farming abilities, so massive it may create in just a few days big trouble for the game balance, and lead to trouble in the community if something is not done fast enough. I suggest to shut down this path for a few days until balance ideas are added to see this path live again.

[raven bane]

There's a lot of issues conflated here imo:

1. Is agony too rewarding?
   1a. Is it too rewarding because it was the only one we were able to preprep and will be greatly decreased once people burn through their scrolls?

2. Are T8-9 scrolls too rewarding?
   2a. Are they too rewarding generally or just when able to be farmed independently?

3. Is ragnorak too easy/rewarding for agony due to the ability to stack scrolls? Would resolving 1 or 2 independently make ragnorak reasonable or does it need specific changes?

[harsh geyser]

Good breakdown.

Personal opinions:
||1. yes, even outside of event it's a little too rewarding in terms of proofs/time.
1a. I don't believe that's it. It's a factor, but in a multi-year/long view that's not much.
2. yes definitely. I think the fix should be tilting rewards toward T10 and away from T8/9.
2a. the events exacerbate the problem, but overall events that favor certain paths isn't bad on net.
3. ragnarok T8 event raids are very easy to acquire. I think addressing lower-tier raid rewards primarily fixes it.||

[finite flint]

despair in party of 2 is insane but that's another issue, and might be limited to HoA

[naive lynx]

Shouldn't T8-T9 raids net less in general anyway? T10s should be providing the most proof and reward for time spent and "difficulty". Might be an easy way to fix the issue in general

[pearl mango]

In my opinion due to the fact t10raids are not close to how many t9-8 that spawns in most events thats not a good solution

[storm wadi]

They should yea. So far T8s have been very rewarding, netting almost 10 proofs per kill and I'm only ang 8 for agony. I'm running them shackled with my all ang 0 raid gear and 1-2 shotting most of them. There's very little effort needed

[raven bane]

The thing about shifting t8-9 to more favor higher tiers is events like giants and titans will be the new issue.

[finite flint]

agony is a tad too good. t8-t9 are a tad too good as well. ragnarok prices are too low these days in general, shoul dbe increased to like 3 for t8 8 -10 for t10. Proposed solution: reduce agony proofs for all raids 15-20%. Reduce them further for t9 by 25% and t8 50%. Increase snake costs (both t8 and t10)

[low valve]

Agony is definitely more rewarding (especially for time invested) than the other paths. I went from 1 to 5 in maybe 2 hours of raiding. Without sitting on a big stock of scrolls because I tend to use them as soon as I get them.

I'm not sure this should even be a part of the debate. Shouldn't solutions/issues/ideas be the discussion?

[storm wadi]

I think the snake cost is fine, just the reward for it doesn't align with how easy it is to acquire/kill. Changing the cost affects everyone, not only anguish players who have end game raid builds.

[tacit ridge]

Lowering low tier rewards makes >50% of summoning scrolls useless and means players will just accrue a ton of high anguish raids that they’ll have no motivation to kill. Just massively increase t8 jorm’s cost (and any other craftable event raid’s as needed) and be done with it

[naive lynx]

5 for t8 Jorms 10 ea for t10s?

[sinful vapor]

It's super disingenuous to say that making proof gain lower for lower tier raids will make over half of scrolls "useless". That's a bad faith argument; there's a lot of room for properly balancing proof drops per tier.

There is no question that Agony is more rewarding for the player's time. The question is if the scroll cost balances this out; and as everyone pointed out, Ragnarok is out of line

[daring terrace]

Isn't the real problem that anguish raids are easy enough that they take <60 seconds even at ang 20+?

Edit slow mode:

I saw a video of a player killing hippogrpyh at ang 20 in 45 seconds

Aren't the numbers in this thread coming from that player? We say 2000 proofs an hour, is that the replicable or an outlier?

Video: https://youtube.com/shorts/iXyyVYlY6ug?si=zcIPQB18W-xNwq3S

[nocturne night]

They do what now?
I can't exactly say I've experienced this.
But that might just be a summoner skill issue.

[tacit ridge]

People are seeing one super optimized player do that and think that’s going to be the norm

[sinful vapor]

To be perfectly honest, raids truly do not feel like they get harder at a pace comparable to the other paths. It's very easy to make mistakes and die in melancholy or torment, and the enemy stat gain is very noticeable.

At the exact same agony level (I'm at 6 on all three), I'm running shackled ultima sequencer and don't feel much danger. I usually don't ward up - turn 1 snotra with tmm, turn 2 gods of aaru, and almost never WoO.

I wouldn't be the slightest surprised if Agony was just bugged and raid stats were not properly scaling.

[plush nimbus]

Find a player able to replicate 2k/hour in mel or other things. For now, taking all factor into account, even if you half those numbers, it's still much better than what you could expect from running dungeons for exemple. But feel free to give it a try

[left mauve]

Can people please stop asking for increase of T10 jorm scroll price to compensate for a whole content flaw?
This event already is a korn sink, always have been, not a good idea to make it worst.

[sturdy stump]

one super optimized player playing an overtuned class 🤷‍♂️

[daring terrace]

Is this an issue with path balance though, or an issue with broader class/skill balance?

If nobody can get 2k melancholy an hour, and only Diety can farm 2k agony an hour but GS is 1/4th of that

Why change the path and not nerf the power outlier?

[turbid sedge]

Beo laughs at deity for raid

[tacit ridge]

Investment should be rewarded. Melancholy is a spam the same button 25 times content. Anguish raids actually require optimizing gear and builds, so ofc they should be more rewarding. You also need to actively farm the scrolls, while dungeons are infinite thanks to wayvessels and concords

[sinful vapor]

I think it's naive to pretend that "one optimized player" won't become "most endgame players" extremely quickly. We are early into ang2.0 and we have pretty good evidence that raids are too efficient.

Re: Bordoas, Whatever time is spent on optimizing builds is also spent for any path, that's a very poor argument. If anything, melancholy is much more difficult than raids as you are immediately faced with multiple enemies that may be berserk or apply a variety of status effects; you know exactly what you're getting into with raids. I think the only time people are effortlessly oneshotting every enemy in melancholy off the bat is unshackled with a lot of ALs

[pearl mango]

Ehm ehm deitys being the most efficient in both agony and melanchy by ALOOOOOOOT

@sinful vapor show me a summoner or a realmshifter doing ang raids in the same time as abyss

[plush nimbus]

@raven bane do you have trouble killing T8 Jorm currently ?
@obsidian jackal is this hard to kill T8 Jorm currently ?
@low valve do you have trouble killing T8 Jorm currently ?
And so on... It's not a class issue. I don't mean there are no class issue, but it's not the main problem here.
@tacit ridge different rewards is not the issue, that much different is an issue. And comparing T8 raid with anguish 2.0 dungeons to show investment should be rewarded it feels a bit weird.
Fyi, we re talking about a 1/6 or 7 ratio.
As dungeon envoyer, rarely taking break (nearly never!), my dungoens/day is around 90 average taking everything into account, and I use to play hours and hours a day. 90 T8 raids is just nothing compared to that, and the rewards are much better on top of that. Please, as you always say you love math, do one hour dung and one hour of farming/killing T8 Jorm, compare rewards, and tell me what you feel about it and about the difficulty

[tacit ridge]

Melancholy is literally just equipping TMM, beastfelled garb and spamming your preferred 2h offhand 25x. Naive is pretending that there’s actually any optimization there when it’s all just about accumulating (t)buffs and pressing 1 button. IMO that’s probably Ang2.0’s biggest failure: failing to make dungeons actually interesting/requiring strategy

[left mauve]

Raid is pretty much the same...Even more as you play gilga, you just use the same loadout whatever raid is coming ahead.

[low valve]

Nope. Takes about 10 seconds. Less if a doublecast goes off

[sinful vapor]

I'm curious if this works shackled at all ang levels, or if it really is just an unshackled thing

[pearl mango]

Deity in a nutshell (it works with deity shackled yes) havent seen any high melanchy player whos not abusing deity if theres any i would like to ask them hows their experience same with agony most high agonys are deity seems this just might be that deity is too op and the fact goudine whos a deity and tera whos also a deity showing video of anguished raids being killed fast by A DEITY saying AGONY IS op is just dumb to me

3 of them fall into the catagory of abusing deity which is by far the most overtuned op stupid class we ever had

@plush nimbus you didnt woo first turn lol

[plush nimbus]

I have to admit you re totally right. And it feels exactly the same as killing T8 Jorm... Oh wait 😱
@pearl mango class balance + path difficulty is a topic, I don't mind having it discussed, and there's currently a thread about it.
Thing is, for now, no matter the class you re talking about, one path feels much more rewarding/any other. Again, to match agony available results on ang 20+ for this event on trash raids, you ll need to run more than 60 dungeons on ang 46+ in one hour. Shitting topic doesn't help.

[left mauve]

Laking argument against goudine's math to feel obligated to shift the subject to deity, while it has nothing to do with how much agony is op path whatever the class?
Gilga perform better at ang raiding btw.
Gurn play RS2 build which would work as RS too i suppose.
Pretty sur Beos have no problem.
Hera are the biggest nuke of the game.
GS are slow, true.
Raid are easy for everybody, not only for deity.

[weak steeple]

Ngl i dont think its much of a discussion to say that agony path is slightly overtuned

I see both sides of the argument for sure but like....cmon now

[sinful vapor]

Look at this OP deity scum @pearl mango

Agony is nowhere near the difficulty of other paths

[pearl mango]

Now kill an ang 20 hippo like abyss did in 40secs again deity being op

Class balance matters the most since if 4classes are fkd and one do good and you balance based on the one that doesgood thats not good balance

If you dont balance classes first theres not much base to balance around

If you keep using a deity user who kills ang20raids in seconds as an example on why agony is op and not show me any similair results with other classes it just seems that deity is the problem here

[low valve]

Pretty sure a Heretic Ara at that level could do 80m+ in one shot with all of the magic equivalent buffs up...

[harsh geyser]

In this thread at least, I've only used my own agony experience. 🤷‍♂️ Can't speak to others, but even in a world without videos of clearing raids mega fast, I personally am clearing raids fast enough and agony rate is incredibly high (even accounting for scroll-acquisition cost).

[plush nimbus]

@raven bane please could you send a video of Gilga on anguish Jorm ? Just so we can stop shifting the topic.
@pearl mango I love talking and I m a bit too passionnate sometimes I agree, but it's a bit annoying for now to me that you have no answer about the difference in rewards and the available things duable on agony versus other paths.

[sinful vapor]

I think it may be best to just ignore loverbbc's vendetta against Deity or we'll be stuck here forever. Regardless of whether Deity is overtuned, it's clear to everyone else that agony is overtuned. None of the other paths require as little thinking, preparation, or pose as little danger to ME as agony. And it seems most others share the sentiment

[left mauve]

Gilga better at raid but since you need to rework your loadout your brain burnt.
You like to talk about Abyss apparently, but you forget to mention how he output more damage than an AL100 deity with an AL0 gilga.

Git Gud bru.

You're on the wrong subject anyway, we'll start ignoring you now.

[naive lynx]

This is untrue much later (like 35+) in Dungeons. Just turns into windtamer for Deity anyway. Part of the issue with being super high AL and geared with low end content anguish

[sinful vapor]

I really hope agony is just bugged and raid stats are not scaling properly

[naive lynx]

I feel like yeah HP gets higher and Ults hit harder but the general stats are unmoved? Like I'm not worried about much minus a big Ult here and there

[grave fulcrum]

t8 scrolls less hp and easy kills makes leveling 1-25 extremely easy

[next flame]

Honestly I don’t get why ang doesn’t only affect raids of your tier. But of course people will find an easier way to do everything
Feels like it defeats the purpose if it’s that easy tbh

[bronze plinth]

What if proof gain from t8-t9 would be lower, but proof gain from t10 raids would be better to compensate. T10 raid should be more rewarding than t8. But we should not disable proofs from t8-9. Bc we cant chose to target t10 raids in anyway.

[full peak]

There are a lot of weak T10 raids too, I don't see reason why to rise them up. 🤷‍♂️

[left mauve]

Yup, just nerf to the ground the T8 raid proof loots, nerf a little less hard T9 raids, and keep T10 raids as it is ? or just a tiny bit the T10s (but since we got one T10 for like 5 spawn or somethin, not sure it is necessary if T8 and T9 are already tamed)?
As mentionned before, the player base is faaaar away from being any close to some players mentionned here, we should not consider "any T10 raid easy outside of pigeon, lyncus and morri".
If T10 raids are too weak, they should be buffed (and i'm talking about the raid itself, not only the Anguish part of them) to reflect the actual state of the game. (which is btw a far better approch than nerfing players constently imo, less emotionnal damages)

|| Also Kingdom rework when? ||

[full peak]

I think it was already said...
T10 - same
T9 - 2/3
T8 - 1/3
or smth like that

[grave fulcrum]

Yk I'll compromise here and say make all content 8-10 drop anguished proofs now they're all equal ish

[full peak]

That is request on top of this one, it should follow similar rule. They should drop proofs, but at 2/3 and 1/3 rate as original T10s.

[finite flint]

Anecdotically, i tried to increase anguish keeping GS as class, keeping BP raiding as the build (which shoud be kinda terrible at low AL). Shackled. Ang 9 only. Not 100% optimized build (nekro staff at 9, but only masterforged. GF hera robe at 4, GF FSS at 4, not anguished arisen summoner helm). Decent amity (ward turns + 30% summons) for the build, 3 ward turns in legs. 30 moondrops + 3 leftover from ang 8 raiding (t8 stuff). Result 334 proofs. In like 18 min answering stuff on PC and mobile, and trying to record a video. Decisively not-optimized with clicks per minute.

[plush nimbus]

Thanks

[plush nimbus]

I hope something will be done real quick, as we re currently seing many people with agony path going straigh up. Including people saying all is fine and agony is not too rewarding ^^ Odie has access to number of T8 Jorm killed I guess...

[plush nimbus]

For reference, I ve already seen, in less than 24 hours now that rag event is on, people farming more than 2 millions shards in terms of agony proofs. And that's not including the random mats drop from killing those weak raids.
@solid tiger personal comments don't help. If you re so interested about me, ask for a biography in DM ^^

[solid tiger]

Why are you so focused on balancing the game for the top 50 players? Let them sweat

The suggestions rn are decreasing the t8-t9 proof by 1/3 1/5. That will ofc nerf people sweating t8 jorms but also gutter the rates for everyone else that plays casual, let's say you spawn 30 raids and they are an even 10 t8 10 t9 10 t10s, if you get 10 proof per raid on average you get 300. With what you guys are saying we would go down to 180 on average, that will only affect the casual people that have a finite amount of scrolls. If we do that how about we double t10s proof rates to even out, everyone just wants nerfs nerfs and nerfs but how about buffing the slower stuff from time to time?

[harsh geyser]

It's not a "top 50 players only" problem when one path is multiple times faster than the others.

So it's not that you disagree that there is imbalance, you just want "buff everything" instead of "nerf one thing". Okay.

[plush nimbus]

Again, it feels personnal, and it's a bit unfair when (but I understand you didn't see it because many messages on this thread) I offered way to help some other paths too.
We're currently in a game offering one path able to skyrocket like crazy, we re talking about x6/7 or more the rewards you could get from other path, with spamming weak raids on an update called "anguish". It creates an issue for game economy balance, and will surely create more and more community issues on the next days, as we ve had several exemples of things too rewarding on this game and in the end, if nothing is done quick enough, it becomes a big mess. Balance = taking a look at multiple factor, and try to have something fair enough. Is this fair enough to have one way offering 10k cort when in the same amount of time other path offer 1.5k ? I don't think so, and that's what is currently happening on the game, and those numbers comes comes from live results.
On my side, I don't feel like running content if this remain as it is.

[exotic jasper]

I, personally, would rather see a significantly increased stat scaling of raids, which are tier(s) below your tier, than a reduction in proofs for killing them. I see anguish as difficulty guild, and being able to struggle against T8-9 raids sounds nice. Making them (much!) stronger would slow down the raiding, making it not as appealing as it is now for proofs/mats purpose.

Just wanted to put my 2 cents in 🙂

I agree on the fact, that killing T8 anguished raids is easier than T10 rn. Having same rewards for different difficulty feels a bit.. odd.

[split narwhal]

I agree that T8 raids are broken right now. I think I would want to modify this by increasing T10 raid proof rewards and further reducing t9 and T8 proof rewards, so that the total expected number of proofs that one would currently expect to get out of a summoning scroll remains the same.

As a more upper average, but not top player, the scaling to increase my anguish levels in 2.0 has been a problem. For dungeons, just to get to the same expected number of proofs per completed dungeon that I was experiencing in 1.0 it will take me over a year, and just the leveling cost (not including anguishing gear etc) I'll have lost out on an expected 27k 1.0 proofs.
I know people will point out that ang 2.0 dungeons can be run more often, but as a more casual player, dungeon cool down times of 2hr in 1.0 were not really a limiting factor to me.

To get this back to the topic, proofs of agony, to me an across the board reduction in expected proofs per summoning scroll, is a direct nerf to what I thought was the benefit of moving to 2.0. I give up an expected 27k 1.0 proofs, but now can also get some from raids. Path of agony was the one path that I've felt is scaling in an ok way till now.
I guess I see two solutions-
Reduce expected proofs from a summoning scroll, but also rescale ang lvl progression across all paths.
Or
Re-tier proof chance by raid tier but keep expected proofs per summoning scroll the same

[full peak]

Ang2 suppose to be slower, harder, less rewarding than 1.0, as the first one was too easy, quick and everybody ALs skyrocket. There were no real threat. So yea...what you are saying is expected behaviour.

[plush nimbus]

Big congratulations to the lvl 40+ agony we re seing now in both orna and HoA 🎉

[solid tiger]

Imo its not that bad the way it is, I think agony in the current state of the game is the only enjoyable path, you can spend 30 mins of your day and see some significant progress, the other paths are way too slow. You cant expect world farming to yield the same rewards as running dungeons in terms of proofs per hour.
I'm not saying hey lets buff everything, but there is things that make the other paths frustrating and not rewarding. Having to pick your fights in towers or monuments to get proofs makes no sense, same with world farming. There is little buffs that could make other paths way more rewarding and enjoyable. And im not saying Angony shouldn't get toned down a little but maybe the others should get buffed a bit too so there isnt that much of a gap.

Ofc killing t8 jorms is way more rewarding in terms of proofs that killing normal raids or doing other anguish activities thats ofc a problem, but even then, is it better at mats per hour than doing other activities like mnemonics? Cuz i dont think so, you cant expect to get the same amount of progresion in terms of mats doing exploration dungeons compared to towers. There is always gonna be an activity far superior in terms of progression than the others, and now with angish having multiple paths its expected that one is gonna be better than the other, and im not saying Agony shouldnt get nerfed, but it shouldnt be nerf till the point that its compared to world farming for example. I think killing t8 jorms is a problem, but nerfing that scenario shouldnt kill agony the way a lot of people are suggesting.

[plush nimbus]

#💡│suggestions message
Suggestion to turn off agony path for a few days until it gets balanced.

[split narwhal]

Cool cool. In general is there a time period for when everyone will be forced onto the new system and 1.0 will be abolished?

I think where this gets me is slower. I get less rewarding, I get harder. It's fun to push I feel like I'm just eeking out achieving something. I hate the slower. Being locked to content that isn't as hard as what I was previously doing for at least the next year for me is just unfun.

[sturdy stump]

what does turning it off mean? Just cant do any anguish raids during this time or what?

[plush nimbus]

It could mean that yes. With a message saying some changes are incoming.
Just for information and tbh to avoid personnal comments, I m not farming and won't farm raids, so I won't benefit from what is currently duable.

[sturdy stump]

if that happens I hope they extend the felling event

[paper void]

Building support for disabling paths into the game is likely far more work than a balance adjustment - t8 proofs, etc

[split narwhal]

That makes sense, but I don't think anyone would fault you if you did farm. You've been bringing it up as an issue well in advance and consistently, so it doesn't exactly look like you have any conflict of interest.

[craggy flame]

Is this a new issue from latest update? Its been like this since ang2 release, right?

[plush nimbus]

Yes, but people wanted some more datas to have something clear, and this Rag event provided those datas, I guess

[turbid sedge]

Removing the ability to earn proofs on raids below t10 is the best thing to do If you don't want to create an imbalance of economy + an imbalance between players, the content is too recent to see this problem

But in 6 months you will see AL 400+ appear. Is the goal to make access to ALs farm easily?

If the purpose of anguish is to offer difficult content to players then the very idea of having the opportunity to earn proofs on t8s is a heresy And I think the problem is not limited to proofs on raids but also on the price of tools

How can a demonworking tools cost 65 agony or despair proofs? The agony takes literally 5 to 10 times less time to harvest

[craggy flame]

Are there any available stats showing how many dungeons/raids/towers t10/t11 players do on an average day @paper void ?

[tacit ridge]

Removing the ability to earn proofs below t10 kills the path, unless you start allowing players to only summon t10 raids from normal scrolls

[paper void]

of course

[pearl mango]

It will also kill 90% of event raids considering their not t10 lol

[plush nimbus]

No one want to kill the path. But trying to find solution to balance a path when it's now (maybe not for you but for most people who tried. i guess) way too rewarding/time/difficulty seems the way to go, IMHO.
Yes, there are ideas about reducing proof for lower tier, and ideas to implement option to increase T10 from scrolls, and also other way like maybe a cap for lower tier and so on.
Or maybe you really think the current version is totally fine even when we have now what you wanted for long : numbers you can check. They are here.
I really wish we can move to "how to remove balance issue" rather than "no no it's completely fine as it is" when numbers speak
Congratulations for your Gilga Bof Mammon build and your +2/3 agony level in a day by the way 🎉😋

[craggy flame]

would be great if you can share 😳 , i dont know if they are already somewhere in the server

[languid adder]

" a class awaiting a nerf" i will not take this crap

10 MINUTES WAIT!?
Who had a bad day?

[turbid sedge]

If for 1 month I decide to farm 5k jormu t8 you think it won't kill the path? while doing 1000 jormu t10 is already less easy to farm in agony 30+

[plush nimbus]

Agony 47 seen on HoA, 42 on orna. Can't say if those are the top. And it's start of Rag day 2.

[tacit ridge]

I’ll indulge you with a reply even though you decided to be personal about it and stalk my stats (I’ve been farming normal scrolls btw, not T8 Jorm 🙄).
We do indeed have the data now. And T8 jorm is apparently far too accessible. Before taking any changes that largely impact the path going forward, the most urgent change should be to T8 jorm. I wouldn’t be against the cost going to 4/4 or even 5/5 and being the same as t10. After that the data can be reassessed

[pearl mango]

Arent those the same numbers teralys showed before ragnarok even started lol

It seems you cant accept some ppl just grind too much and they will be way higher than you no matter how balanced agony is

[sinful vapor]

The data won't be very useful after increasing scroll cost - people can simply farm them and craft them now before the cost is nerfed. The data we see for agony as a whole even prior to ragnarok indicates the path is too efficient

[plush nimbus]

💯

[turbid sedge]

This kind of answer does not move the subject forward at all, you see it though there are real problems with the agony. stop focusing on goudine

See the future that this can cause as a problem to have a path that is far too easy to farm

[pearl mango]

Using super high agony level ppl as an example aint moving the subject either we trynna balance this for EVERYONE not for the 2 200+ als ppl who are grinding all day

[languid adder]

Fully agree.
I dont think cause a handful of ppl are running away, it should suck for everybody else.
Agony is in a good spot rn, maybe a tiny bit too good, wish it was a bit worse but the others a bit more aligned. Cost adaptation.

[split narwhal]

Right, so would you be open to the fix similar to what gurnnink mentioned, shifting the proof rewards of T9 and T8 scrolls down? But maybe shifting T10 up, to keep the average expected proof rate from a summoning scroll the same? Making farming T8 jorgs during this event not as rewarding, but increasing the appeal of the fey version?

[sinful vapor]

Agony is better than the other paths; whether it should be nerfed or the others buffed can be discussed, but defending agony as it is is pointless and counterproductive

IMO it needs a difficulty increase

[pearl mango]

If SOMEHOW they manage to keep the average exactly the same do it couldnt care less if im getting the same amount of proofs anyways which is very unlikely considering t8/9 raids pool is so huge compared to t10

[languid adder]

I think thats hard to do. Some raids are just much harder at the tiers, some much easier, Trev T9 for example is more annoying to fight then some T10 raids.
I mean it would be the most easy solution, but i dont see it as good.
Also im not really caring much about agony looking at the state of melancholy for example, rn as it seems some people still didnt get the memo that orna will never be a perfectly balanced game and the moment you patch out an exploits another three will come up.

[left mauve]

didnt we all agree to just ignore loverbbc ? 🧐

[pearl mango]

I have as much of a right to have an opinion as you do wether you choose to ignore me or not im sure NF will listen to everyone and come with a solution at the end also it just seems you are kinda being childish trying to gather everyone to ignore since yesterday😂

[sturdy stump]

🦛

[dim jacinth]

please remember that you can just ignore/block a person if you wish to not interact with them anymore. Piling up against one another like this doesn't lead anywhere

[plush nimbus]

Abyss : "it's just ridiculous" ang 21 to 25.5 in one evening (about those telling it need scrolls and so on : he started with zero SS)

[mystic rose]

I said Agony was too good imo when it first got buffed. My opinion still hasn't changed on that

[next flame]

I wouldn’t even say up t10 rewards
Just make proofs only drop for raids of your tier, and if your 250, then only t10 raids

[languid adder]

So about 50% of your scrolls can just be released.
Sounds SUPER fun x3

[molten leaf]

Is agony that busted? I feel like open world mobs farm easier proofs 🙂
Sadly my raiding build doesn't allow me to lvl up beyond 2 though 😢

[storm wadi]

Yes it is. I've gained about 5 levels, 6 > 11, since ragnarok started. Can't respond yet so just editing this one. @split narwhal Using the T8 method. Tried a couple T10 jorms initially but I can't confidently kill them as fast as I can the T8s and the reward would be the same anyways for more cost.

[split narwhal]

Yes, that is the opinion of someone who thinks that agony as a whole is too rewarding.
I think we can see that it's two issues right now:
lower tier raids are too rewarding
And
Agony as a whole is too rewarding

This solution is a compromise, to address the most major concern, that T8 jorgs are too easy to farm and to rewarding. while giving us time to address the agony path as a whole and rebalance as needed.

Korosei, is that with the T8 method? Or would you have expected the same with T10 jorgs too?

[lean schooner]

While I understand the pov of "earning ang proofs on T8s as heresy" the problem in turn I feel is - if you exclude T8/9 from the path, nobody here in turn I think really wants to burn summon scrolls to get stuck with T8/9 junk + T10 anguished raid copies (should T8/9 be weeded out from the equation completely, while still being summonable)

Look at how the raid pool looks through the year, and how often and to what extent T8/9 will sneak into it all.
While I understand the T8 Jorm talks now, it all has to be taken into consideration year-wide - a shift of mechanics works for 365 days, not 21 of some event.

[next flame]

That’s how it was before Ang even came out? How is it any different besides people wanting instant gratification?

[storm wadi]

It was and it was terrible. I'd summon hundreds of raids only to leave most of them because they were useless raids to me. I'd get to them eventually, not because I wanted to but because I needed spaced to summon more. While I like getting 10+ proofs from lower tier raids, they are far easier than T10 raids and the rewards does't align with 2.0

[naive lynx]

Still like the idea that someone brought making T10 have full drops, T9 half or 2/3s and T8 1/3 or hell even 1/4, but make that for all paths.

[slow vortex]

Sure agony's path a little faster compared to others but it requires resources a.k.a scroll to do that, as casual players who dont have infinite amount of scrolls or has the time to farm for them I'm against any nerfs but I'll support a tweak like making t8/t9 gives less proofs compared to t10 raids and i think t10 super raids should give even more proofs since we had to farm for it separately 🤷🏼‍♂️

[nocturne night]

Is that any different from how raids were before the release of Anguish 2.0?
Don't get me wrong, I do like Anguish giving more purpose to tier 9 and under raids, but realistically, even if they drop nothing, they won't be worse than they were pre patch

[next flame]

My issue with this. How can you not “confidently” kill them when you just a few minutes later mention how “I’d summon hundreds of raids only to leave most of them because they were useless raids to me”

Yet you’re actively looking for the easiest/laziest way to level up your agony? What’s the point in that then? Besides wanting instant gratification

If it’s meant to be harder to achieve, and everyone just looks for the easiest way of doing it then why complain and act like you’re not cheesing it anyways?

[languid adder]

It wont be worse, that is correct, but it would be equally disappointing. A big issue agony solved is making your scrolls only one diceroll instead of two (is the raid on my tier/is it even useful for me)
Removing that would reintroduce one of the most annoying aspects of Orna AND adding salt to it cause it was fixed.

What i see currently is a handful of people who want to overcorrect; yes, lower tier raids can have lower drops, but please dont apply the philosophy of "only mobs of your tier should drop proofs" to the only path that does a better job at beeing fun.

Or just turn turn Torment & Melancholy into EoD. That also works, and would be more unique.

(10 Minutes really is insane)

[finite flint]

I told you guys about t8 snakes like 20 days ago (but I might have said that on ornaL more than here tbh). it's just absurd. every high end player has easy Korn access for various reasons. 5k Korns and one event raid is 11 t8 snakes on avg, doing 3 raids that take 10 seconds each. So per minute you can farm 22 t8 snake scrolls. Basically the event make t8 raids functionally infinite. you farm the 22 snakes in, say, 9 minutes because you are sloppy and not a machine. So 22 anguish X (your cap) raids every 10 minutes. Super aggro players will do that 3-4 hours per day. many others 1-3 hours per day. thousands, some hours per week. every hour you get more than one anguish level, sometimes 2, until pretty high levels. Basically Ragnarok means everyone who wants to, reaches the cap for his AL in agony path in a few days at most. Which could be fine and not game breaking. Except if I farm 5k+ agony proofs and wait for tools and crucible in the shop thanks to snake, doing almost nothing scroll wise (very little dent in Korn and SS balance) I just removed the bottleneck for tools/crucible forever in my game. Now the other paths are better. I can use the proofs exclusively to level up the path, optimizing the times for those paths with free proof of agony from snakes. That's not the end game as intended imho.

wrapping it up: t8 snake prices have to go AT LEAST to 3/3 (imho T10 has to go to 8/8 at least as well). That has to happen yesterday.

t8/T9 raids should give lower proofs in general but that's a different hot potato with some negatives so I understand if odie wants to take his time thinking about pros and cons.

but JFC t8 snakes are too cheap.

[storm wadi]

It's just a means to an end. The real goal is to get my agony as high as I can to spend time killing the raids that are worth the time, such as t10 jorm. I can one shot almost any raid without anguish but that's of course not the same when running agony 11. I'm not complaining, just agreeing that the cheese is there and using my experience as an example

[plush nimbus]

We re hoping for @raven bane new stance, but as he just said, he s too busy Jorm spamming. Sad 😋

[paper void]

#polls message

[raven bane]

IMO Rune cost changes is best bet, I think hasty to change an entire guild economy based on 1-2 events where economy out of wack.

[vague bloom]

Can I ask why it's an issue that a super high AL player with bis gear and a lot of hours can breeze through certain content?

[plush nimbus]

The rewards/time/difficulty are not balanced in this path at all, and some events tend to increase this issue.

[supple cape]

Question about agony raid drops: how does raid luck from the agony path affect drops relative to great felling +15% raid rewards buff? is 15% anguish raid luck the equivalent of this buff?

[vague bloom]

What rewards is he getting that you disagree with? Because it's T8 he isn't getting bis gear, even if the anguish on it is rising, if you are angry that he is simply getting to higher anguish faster he may get a few small things from the guild itself but to reap real rewards he still has to kill higher tier raids at that higher anguish to get rewards from that anguish level that are appropriate and then if he CAN do it why shouldn't he have it? I just feel like you wanna make it more of a grind and therefore more tedious, , not more difficult.

[mystic rose]

Even without Ragnarok event, agony is significantly out of balance from every other path

[plush nimbus]

Yeah, thank you for your comment. I know some numbers are a bit higher on this thread, but they are available. If earning 10/15/20k cort a day on a path while you can get 1/2/3k on other is fine for you, let's indeed keep it as it is.
I wanna see some more balance in a really new update, and we re several people here who talked a lot about what could also be done to help paths that may need some help. Idea is not to have a bad time grinding, but to avoid some issues with unbalanced path. For now, agony allow to skyrocket like crazy, and we know what tend to happen with those kind of issues. Trying to find balance early seems the way to go if we want to avoid this issue to become so big it will create even more trouble in game economy balance and in community.

[snow sage]

https://tenor.com/view/who-cares-golden-girls-i-don't-care-trendizisst-gif-16984322947605882104

[full peak]

People are crazy. I killed 1 Surtr so far. Phew...

And farming raids 1-3 hours per day? I never did that. Can't even imagine.

Anyway I agree snakes are too easy for nolifers.

[harsh geyser]

I don't think "high ascension" or "no lifers" has anything to do with it.

It's just very easy content that is highly rewarding. Ascended people are clearing it under shackles anyway, and the only difference is that nolifers are doing it more (but the rate relative to other proof incomes is still the same/still outsized).

[weak steeple]

I cant believe people are voting t8 jorms and agony to be just fine lol. Surprised is all 😄

[full peak]

Cuz majority of ppl don't read this. Don't think about it. They just want their proofs. Also they are grumpy from downgrading from ang1 ...

[harsh geyser]

Definitely a lot of that going around. Like, acknowledging that it's out of wack, but they hate shackles anyway or they want the game to be sped up because number get bigger anyway, and so on.

Nevermind that ang2.0 is supposed to be the endgame for a few years at least, nevermind that it's kinda screwed up that the fastest way to make progress is to mass murder down-tiered content while ignoring the maluses.

[sinful vapor]

I mean, it's only NF that has the data here; I feel like the vote should only matter as a pulse check on the community. But anguish 2.0 is gonna look a little silly with people surpassing lvl 50 - DOUBLE the equivalent level if 1.0 - within weeks of launch.

[snow burrow]

Agony is more complex compared to other paths. It's not simply about defeating a raid and obtaining proof; we also consume a finite resource—scrolls.

Therefore, the effort put into Agony isn't just about the outcome from defeating raid bosses, but also includes the time and resources required to craft those scrolls.

At first glance, this may seem excessively valuable. However, scrolls are limited resources, and the current "seemingly easy" issue likely stems from the fact that scrolls accumulated in Anguish 1.0 can still be used in 2.0.

From the perspective of a beginner starting the game from scratch, collecting raid scrolls and defeating raid bosses to raise their Agony level doesn't appear to be an easy process.

Rather than being a matter of difficulty, this could pose a problem in terms of the entry barrier between existing and new players.

[short osprey]

I've spent most of my time with Ang2.0 grinding torment, and can say with confidence that this is easily between 2x - 3x faster for proofs/min.

This video for example, I can kill a T8 Jorm at Agony 9 (shackles on), in roughly 10-12 seconds, I timed myself earlier and I was able to farm roughly 280-300 proofs in roughly 10-11 mins clearing T8 raids,
(For reference, doing a full 50 floor tower on Torment 15, killing every T10 pack nets me between 100-150 proofs)

Personally it's not so much at how much you can get overall, it's simply how much better it is than all the other paths

[low valve]

The issue is - there are also players like myself who don't stock up on scrolls and Agony is still significantly faster and easier to path up than the alternatives

It takes a few days at least of running towers which take plenty of time each to path Torment up. Yes, I'm getting Tower Shards too. That's not the point though

Contrast with a ton of dungeons on horde for Melancholy (or maybe my luck is awful but I get maybe 3-10 proofs per dungeon run 😐

Contrast that with running an Underworld Portal or two for scrolls and boom, I'm taking about 10 seconds each to kill 5-10 raids

That's without stockpiling, without considering the t8 Jorms, without having perfect gear or being high AL 🤷‍♂️

I do think whatever solution is done shouldn't punish those who are t8-t10 via increasing the material cost of t8 Jorms

But this is an Agony issue. Not a high AL, class, Scroll stockpile, or anything else issue. And the t8 Snakes are just adding gasoline to the fire

[snow burrow]

In the case of 8T Jor, I think it's a good example of how the value of raids has shifted moving from Anguish 1.0 to 2.0.

I agree that raid scrolls are currently too easy to craft, and I think increasing the difficulty—such as changing the recipe from 1/1 to 2/2 or 3/3—would be a good improvement.

However, since Anguish 1.0 and 2.0 currently coexist, I believe it's too risky to adjust the proof acquisition rate prematurely. Major changes to the overall acquisition rate should only be implemented once the full transition to Anguish 2.0 is complete.

[pearl mango]

Also quick question why is the poll orna cord only when changes will be implemented across both games? We as hoa players would like our opinion voiced too ❤️

[next flame]

I’d think they’re essentially synonymous

[next flame]

The whole “scroll=resource” argument is completely irrelevant. With how many guilds sells scrolls, just from naturally playing the game you can get scrolls easily. It’s a very Olympic level reach for a justification of cheesing.

[snow burrow]

I’m currently Agony level 16, and it takes at least 100 scrolls to raise the Agony path by just one level. I expect the number of required scrolls to increase further as the level goes up.

I’ve heard that leveling Agony from 41 to 42 requires 4,843 Proof of Agony. This suggests that significantly more scrolls are needed as Agony level increases, far beyond what can be acquired through normal gameplay. As a result, reaching an Agony level equal to one’s AL demands a massive number of scrolls, and both preparing those scrolls and clearing the necessary raids take a considerable amount of time.😭

[harsh geyser]

Did NF say that it would be applied to both games in the same way?

[harsh geyser]

Every path has increasing requirements.
The topic is about path v. path comparisons; proof rates per time.

Even accounting for scroll farming, agony outpaces the other three. When the scrolls are effectively free (in the case of T8 jorm), the difference gets even larger.

[full peak]

I don't know. Does it increase the amount of scrolls you need? Or amount of dungeons?

If we take 30 monster per dungeon, and increasing chance by 2% (yes, thats ideal, sometimes you will pick 1.5%), the amount of dungeons needed don't go up very fast.

Imo similar it is for raids, avg proofs per raid is pretty much same as you ang lvl, at least as far as I saw. So the number of scrolls for each levels will be ~ same.

[snow burrow]

However, I don’t quite understand the assumption that all paths need to progress at the same pace. If we were choosing just one path to develop, then balancing the difficulty across paths would make sense. But in our case, we are required to level up all the paths.

In the end, even if someone raises their Agony level quickly, they will eventually hit a limit and have to work on the other paths. Since everyone is playing under the same conditions, the situation is already fair. So it's hard to understand what purpose is served by trying to balance the difficulty between paths.
Of course, I agree that T8 Jorm is excessively overpowered.

[harsh geyser]

I don’t quite understand the assumption that all paths need to progress at the same pace
The shop prices of materials doesn't care about proof type. That's why it matters.

[pearl mango]

Thats what happens 99% of the time and they didnt say otherwise so yes

[snow burrow]

But that shop price is the same for all of us—everyone can level up each path. It’s not like the conditions are different depending on the player.

Also, when you consider things like the tower shards obtained alongside proof, floor rewards, dungeon clear rewards, and dungeon drop materials, I don’t think the balance for the other paths is all that bad.

[harsh geyser]

I don't think you understood my meaning, so I'll use an example.

If you want to purchase a bunch of demonworking tools (for use in any path), you must spend proofs. Because agonies are 2x (or much more in the case of Jorm) faster to obtain, players should ~only raid for their DTs regardless of their preferred anguish activity.

The point that I think you've missed is that proofs are used for more things than unlocking higher path levels.

[plush nimbus]

We already did the math, and yes this is absolutely bad. If you can find people farming 15k cort/day via dungoens/tower/world farm then it's ok. Can you ? No. But that's what is currently duable via agony, and it's not exagerating, it's more or less what I would have in a day if I deceided to jump into this.
It's more than 7 times what I would be able to farm via dungeon path.
And it could be even worse, as we don't know if rewards are caped at some point, and when

[pearl mango]

1 f50 tower is 1000random mats not including shards/proofs/mats from tower mobs

You have 5towers built which is 5000 random mats +150kshards if youre doing no anguish towers

Not considering you guys have infinite amount of towers available if you go outside and look for them

This is sirith claiming he farmed, 16towers in a day
Which is
16k random mats from floors
Around 600k or more shards since he did anguish towers

And 1616 proofs of torment
Not even including mats he gets from mobs inside the towers

It takes 15-20mins per tower for him which rounds to 320mins which is 5hours

You compared numbers per/day so uh yeah you can most definitely get close to match numbers from agony with towers in orna

Also 15k cort a day is soooooooo exaggerated if youre talking proofs of agony wise and if youre talking morris they are not infinitly available either

@plush nimbus how many ppl are doing that many raids daily either lol and sirith is not even the most hardcore tower player out there

[plush nimbus]

Ok, let's take into account those numbers right ? Of a really realistic daily tower farm.
150k shards = 150000/200 = 750 proof + 1616 proofs = 2.5k proof if I m being generous. Takes, as you said, 20 min each, so we re talking about 5*+ hours (not taking into account the time spent to reach those).
Fun fact = raid = also random mat, and you get way more than the 3k you re talking about here via you 3 tower per hour doing your tower.
Raids, for now = 2k at mid ang/hour. So, 10k for 5* hours, and more random mat, for something not as unrealistic as a daily basis compared to running 16 tower / day
@pearl mango please if you want to show something to prove your point via maths, DO THOSE MATH 😋
By the way, Sirith sent his view a few messages ago and you can check it. And no, on average, no one do 16 tower a day (it's also math via tower guild level...), and Sirith said also he never did and will probably never do as much tower as it

[full peak]

I don't know if I even spend 5 hours raiding at agony all together, I raid really occasionally and just hit couple raids at top ....~20-30 raids if I have really lot of free time and nothing to do. Yet I'm agony9 and bought bunch of tools from that path....

I'm also melancholy9 and I spend like 20+ hours farming it. 😄

also it is not like raids don't give you any materials from killing them, right? They have drops > materials. And random material drops on top (~20 of them per kill?),

[plush nimbus]

At this point I m wondering if you re being serious, if you re trolling, or if you re just completely missunderstanding math or what is happening. It's quite easy to calculte that the tower farm you re talking about, if translated into raids spam for the same time, translate into those 15k cort, and it's not exagerating, it's math, and it's what some people did on the last 24h. @raven bane could you please just confirm, as you jump from 24 to 30, that it just translate into those kind of cort number, so we can move on from loverbbc being delusional

[pearl mango]

If you really want REALLY REALISTIC numbers not many ppl are doing 1000+ raids a day infact thats only the top 0.1%capable of doing that

If you wanna account how long it takes to reach them towers lets account how long it takes to farm scrolls

I am a als 42 player who has been playing for nearly 2 years i usually play solo and we have 2uws allways available in hoa to farm scrolls so
If i do those every hour solo as long as am awake it rounds to
60scrolls a day which is infact still unrealistic to the average player

15k cort a day is 15700 proofs of agony which at anguish 20 farming 100raids (no average player is doing that) an hour solo with an average of 17-22each is 1900proofs an hour on average which means the number you stated 15k CORT is 900scrolls/9hours of raiding a day which is EXTREMELY unrealistic
So i have to farm scrolls everyday for 14days semi hardcore solo to reach those numbers solo
And then raid for 10hours just to run out of scrolls

Im just saying youre numbers are waaaay too unrealistic compared to what the average/very active player is pullin

Calling me delusional when youre the one saying 15k cort a day like its something anyone but the top 0.1% can get close to a day is insanly delusional

[plush nimbus]

You re talking about Sirith 16 tower, I translated into the same time with agony. We re not talking about average player on your exemple, and it's same on mine.
And as said multiple time here, no matter if we re talking about casual, hardcore and so on player, the thing is this path offer way more reward for the time spent and difficulty than any other. Math is math.
To Sirith exemple, or to me, it translate into 15k cort if I deceide today to spend the average time I use to spend on dungeons into raiding, and again, on our calculations we take into account the Jorm cost/time to craf. Yes, you are delusional.

[snow burrow]

The following table shows the material values converted into Proofs obtained from one run of the Normal Hord 11T Dungeon (AngLV.4). Due to limited time to run multiple dungeons, I aimed to create the most conservative estimate possible by only using Ornate Unfelled Concord(x1) and Arisen Top Hat as luck gear, and without using a Dowsing Rod.

When converted to Proofs, the result was 108.8, which I believe is a fairly decent amount. Even when compared to what you get from 8T Jorm, it doesn’t seem significantly lower.

[turbid sedge]

On HoA you can reach 100/150 scrolls per day thanks to the monument + dungeon + other guilds like conq

And don't say it's unrealistic, I did it without forcing

You can have 100/150 proofs per monument atm

30 proofs = 1 scroll

1 monument = 4/5 scroll

You have 4 monuments per hours

[snow burrow]

Since the base reward-per-time efficiency varies depending on the type of content played (Dungeon, Raid, Tower, etc.), I believe the value of Proofs has been adjusted accordingly. For example, in Torment, simply increasing the AngLV boosts the number of tower shards gained, and although it’s not included in the table due to being difficult to convert, Orn rewards also increase in Melancholy. Compared to other paths that offer stronger base rewards, Agony only grants additional Proofs as AngLV increases, so the current Proof gain seems reasonably balanced. Additionally, since all players are under the same conditions, I believe it’s fair for everyone.\

[plush nimbus]

I'm sorry but this is nearly irrevelant, because most of the mat you get here are not mats you re searching for your AL. Knight, me and other made multiple calculation including those, and saying lyonite/wood and so on are same as ability to buy what you really need via proof is absolutely not the same.
Not related to you, but I have to say I'm a bit tired having to again and again "fight" for something that is cristal clear for people who really spend some time to do the math and compare taking into account as much factor as possible.
Those who did and who are honnest with it are clear about it : agony path is way too easy compared to any other, and we re just trying to avoid the in game economy to be completely broken.

[snow burrow]

The mats from 8T Fey Jorm aren’t all used for AL either. Also, due to the less favorable material rotation in Anguish 2.0 shops, even if you have a large amount of one type of Proof, it’s not necessarily efficient. Honestly, from what I’ve experienced, if you're playing purely for AL, the most effective approach is running 7T/8T Boss Hordes(Party), climbing up to 5 Towers a day, and fishing for 3 hours. You then convert the Tower Shards and Corals into Memories for Amities.

In fact, unless you specifically need certain materials (like Cursed Ortanite, Fogstone, etc.), Raids are inherently inefficient. Anguish 2.0 has only made them slightly more efficient, but not fundamentally changed that.

To be honest, Anguish 2.0 isn’t a very attractive option if your only goal is AL. Dungeons like the 7T/8T Boss Horde(Party) are more efficient, and repeating high AngLV Towers in 1.0 gives better overall returns.

However, it seems that many players who enjoy Anguish 2.0 find fun in its unique gameplay and take pleasure in the progression it offers — myself included.

Currently, I’m spending my time on Raids and using a large amount of Proofs to raise my Agony Level, but in doing so, my AL progression has actually slowed down. I don’t think the current rewards are causing any excessive AL inflation. In fact, since moving into Anguish 2.0, my AL growth has become slower. We already have more efficient ways to grow AL than through Agony — they’re just more tedious.

I’m not sure how things will look at very high Agony Levels, but since enemy Raid Boss HP scales steadily with AngLV, I believe there is a natural form of restraint in place.

In practice, if someone plays as efficiently as possible in other areas and uses their remaining time to farm Proofs of Agony efficiently, I think it could have some effect — but I don’t expect it to be overwhelmingly efficient.

[full peak]

So where is the problem if your regular T10 raids will still drop same? Only lower tiers will drop less proofs. No biggy. It will just stop ppl from farming infinity T8 scrolls like now, nothing else change much for normal players.

[plush nimbus]

That's also mostly not true at all (sorry, it's not mean to be disrespectful). If tower/dungeons/fishing can be seen as fine, then current raids are boosted.
Raids can't be seen as inefficient at all, they were in fact already more than decent on anguish 1. Now that you can get insane amount of proof with it, way more than what you can expect from other path, it's huge. It cut your point about "unless you specificaly need certain material", because now all raids, including trash ones = huge proof, and those proof can be translated into mats. Best for now is to ⬆️ agony until you reach a point where the ratio time/proof is the best and then spend all proof you get on mat if searching for AL. We re talking about 2k cort via proof/hour for ang20 agony, or multiple k of any important mat.
The mat rotation is also absolutely irrelevant, as at some point the mat you need will appear 100%, so people can farm huge amount of proof and so on. That's also something wich has been discussed for ang1 and it is totally not an issue.
I m again sorry, not trying to have the last word, but all you re saying here doesn't change the fact agony is game breaking for now.
Not related directly, but a few things seen for now : highest agony lvl available on LB (so it doesn't mean it's the highest one but the highest one I have access to) is agony 44 on orna, it's a +3/4 level since Rag released.

[languid adder]

I do hope this solves it. Thank you so much Odie!
Hopefully we can now step away from optimizing the fun out of the game again 😭.

(i would make this a seperate message but 10 minute timer, its not ment as a reply to you from here on)

Last few days in here is basically just a handful of people wanting to make this less fun. Im tired of people wanting to make the paths hell because a handful of people who earned their power with thousands of hours of investment have an easy time clearing the content. Agony is the one path thats in a great state, and its the only path that i have fun with. Melancholy is extremely slow and, you dont really do dungeons for a lotta things - also some events will make it much better and some much worse (Solution is Proofs as EoD), same with towers. And well, despair is actually quite fun, its the first time after my first 3 days in orna, my very first tower keys or the halloween event i world farm. Its a revival of dead content that i severely appreciate.

I also appreciate the beautiful animation of anguish gear, the bonusses, anguish gear itself, i appreciate that we try to create completely unique content just for a handful of tryhards Like me that tries to tackle the issue of the game beeing too easy for us. Im extremely grateful foe this oppurtunity.

Please stop trying to take away the fun of this system and to make it worse... Im having fun, a lot of it, for the first time in a while, and its Frustrating to see that a couple of people dont want a video game to be fun, they want it to be punishing, hard, and to be played like a part time job.
Can we just please put fun about this hellish desire to balance everything and optimize it around a dozen people that are not realistic examples?

[full peak]

So you basically want to increase all rewards to match with agony? So basically ang1.0 rewards (yes, it will be that if you will try to match it), but not just from T10 bosses like before, but literally everything? I thought that ang2 was suppose to break that cycle. 🤔

Also I see some contradiction in your post (or there are some missing words), where you say the game is too easy for you and you are tryhard, while in different part you are saying other clearing the content way too easy and we shouldn't tailor the game according to their needs?

(also side note to event make dungeons much better - I don't think there is any - if there are some events adding only T10 bosses/monsters in pool, they will increase the avg amount of 30 to what? 35? ... 🤷‍♂️ )

[snow burrow]

If what I’m saying is not true, please explain why. I’m a HoE player, and aside from Kingdom Raid, the raid bosses I’ve defeated to obtain materials are mostly Riftfall, Amorri, and Kerberos. Other raids don’t seem efficient for mat farming compared to these.

Most of the rest of my materials have been acquired by purchasing with Tower Shards, dungeon runs, and Amities events. I play about 8 hours a day, but completing the perfect process to raise AL has been difficult. I also need to participate in monthly events, and I believe I would need to play about 5 more hours on average to finish everything without shortage. Of course, my play isn’t perfect, so there may be more efficient methods, but I think there are many ways to raise AL more efficiently than the current Agony system.

I agree that Agony could be a new growth path, but I don’t think it’s excessive. It’s true that 8T Jorm is OP, but that is an issue of acquisition difficulty rather than the reward for clearing it. Scrolls are, after all, a limited resource — they are not infinite.

[languid adder]

I dont really compare anguish 1 and 2, thats just a step i dont see necessary. I am looking to have fun in a video game, this is not an investor meeting, nor is it graded - im here to have fun, not to get paid.

I say it became too easy, correct - and i also said im glad we get content to help against that, and that im grateful for the oppurtunity. And i dont think that this content, thats supposed to be an entirely new endgame loop, should be balanced around a couple people cause they optimized it, so its too slow, too unfun and too hard for everyone else who wants to have fun instead of minmaxing every single nook and cranny cause they have time to play this game 12 hours a day.

Easy solution is to turn the proofs into EoD, so they are unaffected by all those factirs.

[pearl mango]

the numbers you CAN ACHIEVE are not the numbers EVERYONE else is pulling i can say you can do 30 towers a day in orna if you felt like it but NOT EVERYONE NOR NO ONE is doing that

You cant base your progress a person who level 20+ in anguish paths already to the average active player which is ME i have a life outside this game i am NOT going to farm 4monuments+ dgs+other guilds everyhour to pull numbers like that

[snow sage]

Yah it's a small fraction of a percent making it an issue; as always sweats ruin everything.

[full peak]

Everything is infinite, question is only how much time you are willing to put into it and then transfer it to rewards. Same as it was with refineries (which lay around almost 4y untouched, and yes, not HoA problem). That is only concern.

Honestly, tune down it a bit will mostly touch those huge farmers and tryhards and not regular playerbase, as those will farm their necessary basic scrolls, not targeting specifics. 🤷‍♂️

I can't see how it will touch someone like me - tho someone who is high AL, high rank - but doing like 150 scrolls/month on avg.

[languid adder]

I feel like when anguish 2 dropped, something happened in this commubity and i dont know what. I feel like suddenly its not about the fun anymore, but to perfectly balance an indie game made from a vision so we can have fun - i dont see any price pools.
I don't get the whole sentiments of nerf this nerf that this is too strong this is too rewarding... when did people decide fun was off the table and orna must be cruel?

[snow sage]

I personally feel that Agony is a sweet incentive to kill all those shitty low tier raids.

Removing or making that worse is (imo) gatekeeping.

Don't most crazy sweats already farm 1000s of scrolls and Jorgs? It's literally no different.

Getting anguish gear to level anguish is simple too; run enough tier 1 dungeons and you'll get your anguish gear level.

[full peak]

Honestly, when Orna was hard and you have to try to get your rewards, not watch netflix and press single button for X hours a day to have everything and to be even able to compete with others. 🫠

That's why those call for "orna classic" started in the first place. Orna 4+ years ago - slow, steady, hard - was just really different experience from the one I wrote above. I could play way less, had to pay attention to things I did and I had to try to actually survive ...🫡

[plush nimbus]

Then see you in "powercreep and burn out raid spamming issue" thread in like a few weeks 😅. I think I ve shared what I feel like I had to share. Thank you all and have fun.

[pearl mango]

🦛sadly thats what gaming came down to in the past years its not about having fun anymore its about whos better at this and that and ppl caring so much about ingame stuff that dont effect them like someone progressing faster than them etc etc

Gaming came down to a rabbit hole where its a contest and not something we do to relax day by day im feeling more pushed towards grinding more so i can play with my friends at a close level and keep up with them ita truly a shame ppl forget the main idea of playing this game which is having fun relaxing progressing togethor

[plush nimbus]

Last note then 😅 : to me, it's because I love this game so much that I do care about those economy things, as we re also a lot here who remember several previous issues of the same kind and it has never been a + for the game/community to keep it. Saying those who want some balance are just fun killer is a bit... weird... We can disagree, but I'm clearly not fine reading those who spend time trying to help having the best version possible of this game are fun killers.
This game is a true jewel, I absolutely love it and I will always be grateful to Odie/NF for it.

[snow sage]

If the best version isn't fun to engage with is it the best version ?

I don't feel everything has to be challenging or balanced in a PvE game.

Does slowing players down do anyhting but remove fun and efficiency?

[pearl mango]

What i dont get is wanting to make stuff less rewarding instead of making it harder and keeping rewards

[snow burrow]

We just had a slight difference in opinion, but it wasn’t a fight. After all, we all love this game! I hope our conversations will help the game improve. Have a great day!

[languid adder]

Then let me word it like this.
The time i have to invest is still long, and i would much rather have difficult instead of just having to keep my phone in my hand the entire time.
I enjoyed old orna for what it was. Modern orna is constantly beeing ruined by an outcry to fix problems that only a handful of people create, and make it suck for everybody else cause of it. I dont share that philosophy. Balance is a secondary concern, fun is the main, and im tired of fun suffering because of it.

@plush nimbus and yes i share the sentiment of loving the game. Its why im so confused which route this thread goes down - its a PvE game, if you ascend to 5000 then do it, it only affects me because of PvP, which is a whole different issue - but elsewise its your progress and im happy for you if you archieve what you want. I dont see a reason to make it harder, more tedious, and grindier.
The game has so much great aspects to do that are fun, and it would be much more fun if the amount of investment for those contents asked is more aligned with the amount presented, instead of asking to only focus on a few.

[sturdy stump]

Im not really surprised by the poll results, since people tend to prefer making the grind easier. But its definitely the case that agony is a lot easier to obtain proofs for than the other paths. Increasing T8 jorm scroll cost might affect actual lower tier players, so I think lowering agony proof rewards for t8 and t9 raids would be appopriate to compensate for the lower difficulty (and would also address the issue more fundamentally). At the same time I think currently melancholy is a bit too slow and should not be a baseline for how agony should be imo. I didnt do torment a whole lot yet, but it didnt seem that fast for proofs, however towers already provide good rewards by themselves so not sure how much of an issue that is.

[full peak]

But I don't get it. If you play the content as lv20 or lv230 AL5 or lv250 AL100 and it has some progress, isn't it fun no matter where you stand on that scale? You still play the game. And therefore enjoy it (if it is really the case, not just infinity grind). It really doesn't matter how fast it is? That's why I don't see a problem if it will take me a month or a year. I still don't get the part about this being way too slow and it kills fun ...ex. I used to have time to play MMOs 16 hours/day 12y+ ago. Now I have time to play hour or two a week....so yea, I'm way slower than others, but I still play. I really don't care much if the numbers are slower.

I rather like healthy enviroment, with all paths being somehow equal, then one "correct" (which usually the most profitable way become) way to play.

TO Fiucha below.
Agony is way too much > slow it down (2/3 proofs for T9, 1/3 proofs for T8)
Mel and torment too slow? Add T8/T9 into to proof drop pool with same rule as above ^

This should somehow ~even all paths. You end with less rewarding agony, more rewarding other stuff. Hey, can run them all equaly and not agony focus. Also still think those will hit big farmers more and not much regular playerbase.

[cinder jolt]

At least agony feels good and rewarding
A little too much? Yes
But we can't use the rest as baseline. All the others need severe buffs
Mel is a drag, so many useless floors
Despair is a joke (at least in Orna)
Torment, well... it's towers. Some love it, some hate it

[languid adder]

It IS fun, but it also does Matter how fast it is - especially if there is a high amount of your power suddenly slapped out of your hands and turned into plot tokens. I would not really care much about speed if i didnt have to grind twice for it.

Also... Yes, i want paths to be somewhat equal. Speed is a concern, as of course i want to feel like my time is valued and i want to invest it smartly. If i spend 10 hours for something that should more feel like 5, then i might not enjoy myself as i should.
A healthy environment is important. We are just not there yet - and with having so much things at once to work on, its harder then ever...
If we cant find a general consensus, progress is not on the horizon :(

And yes i agree to the consensus of making paths more even... Thats the biggest issue i see rn.

@full peak To your message below.
I didnt play anguish 1 a lot so i cant really compare, i just had it at 1 cause it was'nt fun to me. So i cant really compare it - i can just say off vibes if i feel, compared to the time spend ingame, if anguish is rewarding enough for me to participate in. I play mostly casually and do random content as i feel like it, there is no strat to it
But yeah i can see how getting the two best ways to farm taken away at once can upset some people if all they care for is progression

[left mauve]

using a poll on the maincord, which is filled with "way-above-average" players, to ask if people want to nerf the path that is PROOVEN to be the most OP one by a massive margin, is like asking at a convention of rich people if rich people should be taxed more 🤣

[full peak]

The problem here is, playerbase already got their toy (agony1), brand new, exqueisite and easy to play with ....but was taken from them and got worse toy ....and they are pissed. Sadly. All comparison is made towards the BEST you got, which is taken as NORM, rather than non functional system. And everything slower/harder is BAD.

(seeing it as father of 2 kids pretty often )

[nocturne night]

To be fair, it wouldn't have been much different to ask ingame to the entire playerbase, considering that the majority of players wouldn't see the rates as an issue anyhow, especially lower tiered players and lower power level players who don't kill raids in seconds

[left mauve]

True, and that confort me in the idea that a poll aint a good indicator when we talk about factual stuff.
People PRO nerf are a few, but have the math to proove that it is way too broken and might "arm" the game
People CON nerf are numerous, but have an emotionnal response and fear of seing their actual/future abuse of the path disapearing.
...Kinda remind me climat scientist VS politicians/capitalism.

[full peak]

(just to be said, that poll is 45% for some kind of nerf vs 55% against ...it is close to half divided 🤷‍♂️ )

[pearl mango]

Good thing that 65% dont agree with nerfing lower tier raids as a whole

[left mauve]

Na for me it is not 45/55, since T8 jorm nerf aint the answer to the problem so i just ignore the votes about him.
Jorm is only the pinacle of what could go wrong with this path, but that doesnt make him the problem here.
Moondrop can be abused too (and already has been of course), and i'm sure there will be more exemple in the future.

To re-use my previous exemple, for me this poll kinda look like this :

"what should we do to save our planet from global warming"

Apply Scientists recommandation globally and immediatly.
ask people to pee during shower
tax fuel base vehicules
Global warming doesnt exist

[vital swift]

I'm with Pie there, changing the scroll prices or making Jorms have more hp is only detrimental to people in lower tiers, who would need to kill a lot more raids with more limited resources, and after that, go against a Jorm that is now even more difficult to kill. While any of this solves the actual problems, which would be the amount of proofs raids give in general or lower tier raids dropping the same amount of proofs as the T10 ones

[vocal basalt]

Fun fact: Brazil's last president suggested we pooped every other day (instead of every day) to reduce pollution

[cinder jolt]

Polls are pointless when a nerf is at stake
People can’t be trusted to vote away their own advantages, even if it’s the fair thing to do
You're right, don't mind me 😅

[lean schooner]

I keep reading in this thread about "breaking game economy" and I kinda want to ask - what breaks that economy?
The possibility of hardcore farming mentioned said T8 or the hardcore 1% you seem to be part of that actually has the power output/motivation/(insert whatever else you want here)/etc to actually carry out that scenario? (and maybe even is already in progress)
As in the end, whatever that 1% pulls off, it will stay within that 1% of the playerbase.

I'm trying to say there's "the other 99% of the playerbase" here as well, and while I see logic in what you are saying as a representative of the small hardcore farmers etc, do you really think that some casual killing idk 80 instead of 20 raids is breaking ingame economy?

For me this thread is a bit funny from the pov of audience

[glossy nimbus]

I don't think that can really be said after the round of adjustments we've had (spiked/chained shield, class/adornment adjustments) which the community agreed with :p

I think polls are very useful for the studio to gather general sentiment towards something

[paper void]

Getting player sentiment is never pointless - it is one of a few very important data points

[sinful vapor]

The issue that people see isn't just "sweats" doing too much. Agony is a comparatively (to other paths) efficient grinding method that will:

• Become the meta/default way of progressing in ang2.0. This path will trickle down to all players as more and more people advise newer players to do the same, just like tiers 7-10 has been about summoner. In fact this will become even more degenerate as t8-t10 progression will revolve around Agony 4+ raid spamming as summoner.
• Cheapen ang2.0 as a whole. This was supposed to be a difficulty guild; agony is not difficult. Tools will be stockpiled and other paths will be relegated to support/casual grinding, as there is a clear imbalance in effort/reward ratio
• POSSIBLY out-reward even ang1.0. There's very little chance of us knowing this right now, but considering that people are almost at agony 50 and raids were not affected by anguish before, it may very well become the next endgame rewards loop

"More rewards" does not always equal more fun or a better, healthier game. If Agony is the best path to do, everything else gets worse and the guild is immediately boring/solved/pointless.

[plush nimbus]

Agree. As long as datas are also taken into account, and game future, but I know you do the job for it 🎉🙂

[weak steeple]

I think its acceptable to have an event that represents the best possible way to move forward with anguish paths.

For example, medusa is decent for melancholy.

However, Jorm is too good in an agony system that is already overtuned.

The solution here feels like a combination. Make t8 jorms a bit more expensive, slightly lower proof rewards for lower tier raids, and detune agony overall a bit.

[sinful vapor]

I'd really want to also push for more difficulty in the path; I can only assume there is no bug (since Odie has not mentioned it) and the raid stats are actually scaling appropriately. Seems strange how difficult other paths are compared to the raids

[storm wadi]

Hmm, personally I feel agony has been the hardest with the scaling. Anecdotally, it feels like raids have been harder to debuff, hit me more often and for harder, and just take less damage. I can still breeze through the other paths but agony certainly feels more difficult

[finite flint]

lol it can be a lot lot more with alts, like a lot more. A lot. When there are events, don't make me talk about that. Every rag event raid is 1-25 runes per player if you do it in 4, plus proofs of agony (yes really). SO A SINGLE event raid done party of 4 with alts, it's 13x3 = 39 munnin (=8 t8 snakes with ZERO surtr farming for alts) + 13 on main for 13 more t8 snakes (assuming main can easily farm surts). Atls summon the snakes at anguish 4. Basically literally 10 min with alts doing 15-20 event raids in world is 200 t8 snakes from alts + "a lot" on main (at your anguish cap level) depending on how many surtr you can hit as well. you can farm thousands of scrolls per day during this event.

[weak steeple]

You know something is wrong when players are FOMOing t8 jorm scrolls to get quick anguish levels asap before a potential nerf

[plush nimbus]

Especially when it comes from those players who spend time prior to this event telling I was delusional. I have to say it's a but "fun" in some way to see their agony lvl going straight up as we speak 😅

[snow burrow]

How about placing a quantity limit on the low-tier scrolls that can be exchanged during a single event? beginner players typically won’t exchange large amounts anyway, so they wouldn’t be negatively affected by the limit, while hardcore players wouldn’t be able to stockpile an excessive number of scrolls if there’s a cap in place.

[pearl mango]

Thats good

[left mauve]

yeah that, and also nerf T8 and T9.

[grave fulcrum]

Hey all I know it's been mentioned but has anyone made a bug report for the anguish guild resetting 2x per day with daily utc midnight and local time midnight

[trail radish]

Guess its time to scour through #1084635587715281028

[pearl mango]

If its intended or not i like it
2chances to buy proofs with currency you have per day

[trail radish]

It has been reported ||(albeit without following the #1084636167300993104)|| – https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1387664490807689296

Hope it gets fixed, as it really shouldn't be refreshing twice

[tacit ridge]

Problem is for the people living on 0utc, they only get one chance 😅

[grave fulcrum]

For utc-0 it's a 1 time change per day for places like the east coast for the US you have 4 hrs to grind it if you have someone who lives in utc+1 they have 1 hr to check before it changes it's a baddd mechanic
Edit+suggestion?
Have it reset at utc noon and utc midnight or local midnight and local noon this would be a decent feature

[full peak]

Also check after midnight. I could count days I'm going to sleep after midnight in whole year on one hand.

[pearl mango]

In general i think its good for it to refresh twice a day if they get that to happen to everyone

[plush nimbus]

Sharing some other number just in case it helps : a player everyone has access to via LB went from agony 42 to 48 in a day. That's something around 30k proof. Translate it into shards for exemple, and that's 6 millions shards. Yes. 6 millions. On Rag day 2.
If people still think ang 1 dungeons were boosted, just consider top anguish dungeons player used to farm around 1.3k proof/day (that was around my numbers).

[languid adder]

Can we please stop putting "takes away a lot of your lifetime by beeing extremely grindy" and "is difficult because you take skill and strategy to conquer a challenge" side by side?

So far its so grindy that i didn't reach the difficulty yet and i am spending multiple hours every day since release grinding towers and dungeons.

Also, yes... Agony is the best path currently. Would love to see a bit more from other paths - but that can be done, we have all the time in the world.

[grave fulcrum]

Tbf we knew this was gonna be an issue nf didn't adjust t8 scrolls rate or rune drop rates or anything to counter it that's definitely an issue for them to fix. I agree this is too fast but I don't think removing proofs from the raids itself is the solution

[supple cape]

Honestly, the people who are going to do degenerate stuff like grind 42 to 48 in one day are going to do it regardless of if it is this rewarding or 1/3 as rewarding.

[grave fulcrum]

Id disagree if you make it cost more to craft or the runes drop rate worse they're gonna grind out probably half as much tbf 30k proofs in a day is extreme and needs fixed sooner than later if nf doesn't fix it then we will have ang 1.0 too rewarding issues again if they disable t8 proof drops then it's not worth running the path for a ton of players if they reduce it properly via scrolls cost 15 runes of each per t8 and 25 of each for t10 then issue disappears a bit making it take longer to grind that many scrolls out. You'd go from 30k a day (still being possible if you save 200+ scrolls before turning anguish on) to closer to 2-3k proofs a day divided between time to grind scrolls kill event raids/kg raids craft scrolls kill t8 raids. Nf was very aware this would be an issue it has been mentioned almost every day for the past 2 weeks and they didn't fix it kinda on them for failing to recognize this was gonna be an issue. If you look at the average high al player they could probably get 2000 scrolls per day with infinite scrolls and then kill probably 500 a day with the current rate which is still a bit much. Let's make it so you can only craft a specific amount of scrolls per event. It would also add longevity to events with super raids making people take multiple events to get that juicy 190+ drop desired. Limited refineries so let's say 100 or 200 of each event scroll per event. If you don't get it this event you'll have another 200 for next event

[next flame]

That wouldn’t be a fix either though. Limiting scrolls will limit drops for non Ang players, meaning it’ll be longer for people who want that event gear to get it, essentially making events only worthwhile for t10 players.

With how fast leveling has gotten it makes events obsolete for anyone who isnt tier 10.

[languid adder]

Which T8 will want to kill 200 low tier jorms?? D:

[next flame]

Considering it took me 3 years of farming to get an ASC? Or the fact that jorm has good drops for early dragoon and bestial bond gear, I most certainly would if I wanted that gear before I have access to a tier 10 Jorm.

The better question is why would a t10 or t11 want to do a t8 raid? Isn’t the point of “ascension” to target down harder challenges? Not cheese the system to “make number go bigger hurhur”

That’s the problem. The identity is now becoming focused on the players who want to min max, not the everyday player.
Before codex I farmed hundreds of raids just for that 1 piece of gear, that’s the whole point of the game. FARMING. Not cheesing just because I can, because I most certainly could. But the challenge of beating rng by getting that good piece of gear is what makes the farm worthwhile. Now we’re expected to change content for lower tiers because the higher tiers can’t stay in their tier to farm? What sense does that make? It’s pretty freaking brain dead to me.

I have an alt I made last year, with barely 3 days of playtime on it just from farming until I got high enough to do raids, then started raids. His whole shtick is being a raid farmer. I’d gladly do 300 t8 jorms if it meant I got that piece of gear, or until I got access to the t10 jorm.

[snow burrow]

If a T8 player defeats around 250 T8 Jorms, they’ll probably reach T10 lol.

[grave fulcrum]

That makes longevity for the event. And IMHO there is no reason to give anyone under t10 a scroll to craft that isn't meaningful for t10 like you said lvling is super fast anymore so why even give t8 a reason to waste runes on a raid that doesn't give worth while gear for the rest of the game. Anyways longevity is always for t10.

[next flame]

And by doing that you’re essentially saying “t10 is the only goal” which it isn’t. Look at EXP less, or other players who would want to make aspects of the game a challenge. Instead of changing things that primarily SHOULD affect t8 players, you should limit the stair stepping down to lower tiers to prevent the cheese.

I’m all for longevity of the game, I’ve been here since 2019, made over a dozen characters (if not two dozen since I lost a lot back in 2023) and the game has continually grown. But we can’t just say “oh let’s change “xyz” knowing that isn’t the problem, regardless of how it affect other lower tier players,” Are we going to start capping other consumable items now too? What you’re proposing isn’t a fix, it’s a hard cap which wouldn’t change anything beyond putting arbitrary limits on things. When instead, the better and most sensible option is to limit/remove the rewards of EASIER content for higher content players.

For many, it’s meant to be the journey, not the destination. But for some the destination is never the final outcome.

[plush nimbus]

• Cap for T8. As the stats boost doesn't mean anything for T11 players, a cap of 2/3 agony proof per T8 seems fair, it's still better than ang1.
• proof reduction for T9. Yes, there are some T9 raid that are nearly as strong as T10 (to summarize) but most of the time, they re already seen as good because you farm them for gear at first + good mats drop regardless of proof.
  Those are just additionnal ideas.
  And I prefer to reminds we also talked about way to help other paths, so those change are mainly here to remove - partly - the cheese, while not hurting regular play, regardless of what you re doing if not cheesing. In fact, it just ....improve what may need to receive some help, while not hurting anything but the cheesing.
  Agony will still remains as good, and other paths may be also seen as good. just it. Not bad, not boosted, just good. I think it's quite fair.

[snow burrow]

I heard that the upper limit for proof chance is 100%.

Since there’s a cap on proof acquisition efficiency, I think it might be more reasonable to adjust the number of T8 Jorms available or the difficulty of obtaining them. I’d also love to hear what others think about this

[plush nimbus]

We ll most likely now see a stop in Guild lvl for those players, and a more "silent" but hard spam as they now reached the point they wanted : being at max drop rate. Agony lvl will stop - or so - for them, but AL will skyrocket.
For one thing you suggested here, it may hurt T8/9 players trying to just farm scrolls to help their lvling, as they won't have the tools yet to counter those maluses (that may be easy to counter for player who search for it)

[snow burrow]

That’s why I was thinking about placing a limit on the number of T6 to T9 scrolls that can be obtained. For example, in the case of T8 Jorm, around 260 scrolls can give a T8 player enough experience to reach T10. So if there were a cap of around 300–500 scrolls per event, it might not be enough for spammers but still sufficient for beginner players.

The reason I came to this conclusion is because low-tier raid bosses still appear from regular summoning scrolls. These bosses have been undervalued for a long time, and most post-T10 players have treated them as trash. But I believe these underutilized raids could have more meaningful use for players, and if we make them more relevant through a mechanic like this, it could have a positive impact on the game overall.

[plush nimbus]

If we go into this kind of idea, then we should limit the amount of lower raid you can kill, as reducing the one you can craft doesn't remove the cheese for those who want to jump into this.
That's why I m not a big fan of those solutions, but appreciate you join to share some ideas as those are always helpfull in the end

[grave fulcrum]

Players like expless are very few people and shouldnt be used to balance the majority. That's the equivalent of using the people who no life to balance the average player. It makes it so that every single player in the game can get 200 scrolls in my example before they can no longer get more which from my drops usually takes less than 100 to get the ornate. And it's no different than limiting refineries or making the playerbase slow down giving the devs more time to buy fix and work on new solid content ideas rather than rushing new content because the playerbase drops during specific months due to the events being useless to players. T10 is the journey t11 with als that go far beyond your expectations is the destination it also would help with things like burnout because people burn out grinding mori or events like this. This also brings all players hardcore grinders or not to a similar level of you're expected to be able to craft 200 scrolls before the event ends props to you if you have materials to grind more use them next time. This would be a huge balance change. And expless will be t8 in a few years and when he grinds 200 scrolls at t8 jorm he will have had time to grind another 200 next event.

[next flame]

Y’all are conflating the issue by throwing red herrings in that have NO sensibility to the issue at hand.

What’s the issue?
High tier players getting rewards from content that isn’t difficult at their power.

It isn’t and hasn’t been the amount of scrolls you could produce. It isn’t the amount of XP a t8 player could or couldn’t achieve. By changing those, you’re REMOVING the option to play how you want. The whole promise of Orna was play how you want, but now it’s slowly being trivialized by “no you have to do this, but you can’t use this. And now you’re limited by this” all because there’s a SMALL percentage of people that want to cheese to get what they want.

Stop offering nonsensical changes without properly addressing the REAL problem because it justifies your view point. There’s never been limits to items and putting that on now will only exacerbate the real problem! Which was Ang rewards and AL from the get go.

[low valve]

The issue is that one Anguish path is 2-3x faster and more efficient than its counterparts in a vacuum

And with this event it's probably 4-6x more efficient

And that matters because of the cost of Anguish rewards/materials. I.E. the rich get richer

I don't think anyone will argue that powering up quickly isn't fun. But fun and balance aren't always the same 😬

If I understand the last sentence, yeah, you could cap Ascension levels for PvP and probably ignore the major issue this efficiency prevents and let it run rampant.

But odds are high that the same players pushing for this issue to remain unaddressed are the same players who will riot if their ascension levels are capped in PvP and so that's a whole other can of worms we shouldn't be discussing right now

Focusing on the issue at hand-

It seems like the two main proposed solutions I see are:

-Limit the number of t8 scrolls/access for higher tier players
-Reduce the amount of proofs higher tier players get from lower tier raids by some amount i.e 9 gives like 2/3 proofs and 8 gives 1/2 or some such.

Is there a third solution proposed? I know that increasing costs is there as well but that really does feel unfair to the un-anguished t8-t10 players

[oak axle]

Welp i wont be bothering with CoA for raids. The only bonus is towards gear and I have got anything from it.

[harsh geyser]

The only other suggestion I've seen so far is to scale up under-tiered raids so that they're harder fights.
i.e. T8 gets a big boost, T9 gets a moderate boost, T10 stays the same.

[next flame]

This comment here. That’s all I’ll point out. Is this not the same mentality as cheesing?

[plush nimbus]

A cap of 2 proofs (in addition to the one you get every time you finish a raid) for T8 and below raids doesn't seem that painful considering it :

• is still better than what we get on ang1
• avoid partly the cheese while not hurting anything else
  And reduction from T9
  Gg btw as we have now agony 50+ players on both HoA and orna...

[tacit ridge]

2 proofs? That’s completely nonsensical. Might as well not kill them at that point

[plush nimbus]

3 proofs/raids for non challenging raid is still way better than nothing IMHO, and that translate into what you can get from running t11 dungeon at anguish 20+ as long as you can kill 2 raids/minute and doing the dungoens in 2 minutes.
Nonsensical is what is currently available, and I think you know it better now than you did like a few days ago.
It just feels like now that rewards are overboosted, it's hard to imagine we can still balance things a bit 😔
Tbf, I don't mind another fair change. This one or some kind of change around it, but something is needed and what we ve seen show it's an emergency

[tacit ridge]

3 proofs per raid isn’t worth the scroll, and T8 raids make a up a very significant percentage of summoning scroll spawns. The only world where that makes sense is a world where we can choose what tier we want to spawn from scrolls.
What we have now is a problem created by a super accessible raid that should have seen its cost increased day 1.
Lowering proofs per tier as suggested before might be more acceptable (T8 40%, T9 70%, T10 100%) but even that seems secondary to what should have already happened which is increasing the cost of the scroll dramatically

[plush nimbus]

Scroll increase cost hurts everyone including players in hope for some scrolls for a bit of exp when T8/9.
It's 6 proofs/minute for 2 raids (and tbh it's not like it's hard to figure people can kill those raids way quicker especially that it means you can run unschack) = you remove quickly those raids + you get more rewards from it than before + it's - again - still a really good amount of proofs if you translate it and compare with other available content. What is currently duable on those raid shouldn't be the scales to consider something trash, or if you follow what you said, then all other content but T8 raids are currently "nonsensical".

[full peak]

Usually people farm raids for gear. Now they get proofs on top of that. Also WAY more proofs than any other content. Majority of people farm scrolls that gives them the gear. So that means, they usually farm their tier scrolls, not some useless T5/T8 gears when they are T10. Nolifers/tryhards farm cheap scrolls to get excessive amount of proofs. Changing cost will hurt other part of playerbase. Changing rates will hurt only tryhards which abuse system. I can only imagine those ppl voting for leave it as it is.

[tacit ridge]

How does changing rates not affect the entire player base as well? Everyone that uses scrolls ends up with a ton of t8 raids as well, that they’ve never had an incentive to kill until now. Again, I’m not against lowering the gains by a percentage, but capping them so low does not compute at all to me.
There are currently 365 votes in favor of no change at all. I have a hard time believing we have that many tryhards as you put it

[snow burrow]

Even in my local Orna/HoE community, people are aware of the current situation. In fact, the ongoing discussions on Discord about nerfing T8 raids have created a sense of urgency, which is actually accelerating player behavior.

The amount of proof provided by T8 Jorm is unquestionably overpowered, but it’s already happened—and at this point, if a nerf is applied, only the “conscientious fools” end up taking the loss.

It’s clear that action is needed, but the situation has come too far to be resolved easily. Now, trying to stop it would likely just leave those who didn’t join the carnival feeling left out and frustrated.

There’s no doubt something needs to be done, but I honestly don’t know what the best solution would be anymore.
😭

[plush nimbus]

Because it doesn't feel at all ang2. And I'm really sorry for the T8Jorm scrolls you prepared, but to me, it's absolutely fair - and tbh we can also say good - to have those raid giving - again - what you can get from running T11 content on mid anguish on other path regarding proof/time spend, especially when talking about non challenging content.
Other solution would be to up dungoens proof reward 10/15/20 times, as that's what is currently duable with spamming trash raids.
I tend to thing first idea is better.
For your 365, I have a hard time thinking they all know like you do what are the rewards compared to other path. Again, a poll for something that can be cheesed when you ask while most player don't know/don't want to jump into this kind of cheese is a bit weird. What I m seing is mainly people wanting to keep raids rewarding. And that's what we re still offering with our option that mainly remove the cheese while keeping the rewards for no cheese gameplay
To Odie/NF, I and some other players will gladely spend some time to help in case some players are upset with the change. It's not like I m not ok to spend a few more days NOT playing/cheesing at all (my agony lvl went from 9 to....9 since Rag start) if you try to save the balance of a game we love so much.

[tacit ridge]

6 proofs/min is not what you can get from other content man. Despair gives a lot more than that at even low levels. If melancholy is the measuring stick then I’ll agree, but it’s because melancholy currently needs a buff imo

[pearl mango]

Limit the amount of raids that gives proofs per day BOOM SOLVED

I think you guys are facing the issue wrong we shouldnt nerf agony down to where melanchy is knowing melanchy is getting a buff in the future

A good way to face this issue is buffing melanchy to a balanced rate first THEN setting a base to where agony should be compared to other paths

[next flame]

Who wants a cookie cutter every mobile game daily system bs like that

[full peak]

But you are talking only those T8 raids killing as 6/min. And when you kill T10s it won't count? 😅

[plush nimbus]

Yes, also, and that's what we discussed and will discuss again but emergency is this raid issue. 6/min here from trash raids is a start. I don't mind if it's abusted again, I really don't care, but I do care about the game, and now, each hour is just destroying the game economy step by step.
At this point I m tempted to ask Odie/NF to do whatever but something, even if it's not perfect.
I mean, sorry but is this that hard to reduce drastically the rewards and send a message to the community like "We re currently having an issue with agony path creating some potentiel big unbalance issues. We have to make a quick change of rewards and will work a bit to improve the content for everyone".
If it's hard to implement a shut down to a content, shut down the rewards, explain to the community, and so on. 😔
To loverbbc : a big and huge NO, emergency is now to remove the cheese currently done. We have all the time in the world to discuss everything else, and tbh I would absolutely love it - talking about mel, despair, torment and so on....

[pearl mango]

You keep talking about economy breaking and huge unbalance issues but i dont see them
Even if ppl got 3more als in the time this still exist als can be removed in all pvp content so thats not an issue
I cant see how ppl progressing faster for the time being causing A HUGE EMEREGENCY SHUTDOWN TO CUTOFF THE POTENTIAL HUGE UNBALANCE ISSUE youre talking about

[finite flint]

it's not 3 more AL, it's enough proofs to have functionally infinite demontools/crucible for other paths as well, while farming mats doing so. It's basically as if the price of DT and crucible for end high player went very close to 0

[plush nimbus]

Indeed, if you absolutely have no care for the game balance, it's absolutely fine to see people skyrocketing and so on. But then, why are you here discussing if you have absolutely no care for the game ? C'mon

[snow burrow]

It seems like there’s a difference in perspective between the two of you. Loverbbc appears to believe that, since PvE content is fundamentally non-competitive, high-efficiency strategies shouldn’t be removed—and I largely share that stance as well.

However, I think Goudine’s concern lies elsewhere. It seems they’re worried that the current system allows players to gain large rewards so easily that it risks making them lose interest—and I agree with that point.

Anguish—especially Anguish 2.0—by name alone implies intense suffering. Its core design assumes that great rewards are earned only by those who endure great anguish.

Personally, I don’t have an issue with players defeating raid bosses quickly and receiving substantial rewards, even with current efficiency levels—if it comes with a matching level of anguish and effort.

But in the case of T8 Jorm, that anguish simply doesn’t exist. Players are clearing these raids far too easily with non-anguished gear. Even as Agony levels rise to 10, 20, 30 and beyond, there’s no real anguish felt from needing to upgrade gear, no melancholy from being defeated by stronger enemies, no despair from trial-and-error while experimenting with new builds and gear, and no torment from struggling to prepare scrolls. Players are simply consuming easily crafted raid scrolls with minimal effort.

While I’m not in favor of reducing rewards either, I feel the current issue is more about the lack of anguish required to reach those rewards.

I may not be able to offer a perfect solution myself, but I believe this will reach a good outcome. Stay strong, everyone.
🙏

[pearl mango]

This really didnt answer anything i asked this is just an empty claim based on assumptions you made about me that are not true
I asked how does them progressing fast in pve cause the HUGE unbalance your talking abiut for the rest of the players and you seem to completly have ignored my question
@plush nimbus

wether agony is way better than other paths slightly better or wtv is a different story you keep putting that point with pointing HUGE UNBALANCE ISSUES and that only seems to apply to the top 0.1% i cant see anyone whos not in that catagory grinding agony breaking any economy

[plush nimbus]

If you can't understand it's maybe not that fine for a game to keep such unbalanced thing, for several reasons : burn out, having to choose going for "usual" play but rewards/10 compared to what is duable or going for that sorcery, as ancientL told it remove completely some of the purpose of the update and so on.
In addition, I have to spend time answering to someone wich act here more like a troll since the start of this update, and that's, to be fair, the worst by huge margin 💜😁

[pearl mango]

Guess i shall not ping you again based on what we talked abt so far you seem not wanting to discuss anything i say or point outwether its true or not have a great day

[plush nimbus]

Well, that's just the definition of balance.
I answered multiple time.
And you you still will claim the 15k/cort I was talking about is absurd, when some did twice this amount in day 2 of Rag = 6 millions shards. Is this top we re talking about ? Yes, but you can translate for whatever kind of player as long as efficiency is a care. It's not like we didn't see players massively going for fishing because it was sudenly really more fun content than before, it was because rewards were better than before.

[next flame]

Goudine has explained it multiple times, it’s pretty crystal clear.

[turbid sedge]

Continue to say that there is no balancing problem.
In the meantime, I'm going from agony 14 to agony 23 in 1 day yesterday

And that's just the beginning of the ragnarok event 🫠

[snow sage]

If lower tier raids would reward less, then they should have a reduced chance of spawning as well.

[plush nimbus]

That's one of the numerous solutions we talked about from start, and already way before the start of this event, yes.

[full peak]

It is not like they have way too big anyway? Imo they should stay, if you start to spawn T10s even more - you will get similar rewards as now. 🤷‍♂️ It is similar as non T10s packs in dungeons or towers...you have to go through them too. And if they eventually start to drop proofs, it should be at reduced rates so ppl wont run T8/T9 dungeons only. It is just exact same rule for paths so it can't be abusable ....

Tbh if ang2.0 start and only your tier could drop proofs (all paths). Paths will be way closer to each other and nobody would probably complain that much that there are gaps between them. Probably only complain would be about a little rising speed by adding T8/T9 into pool for all paths ....at slower rate. 🫠

[snow sage]

I just hate horsemen

[finite flint]

i have a proposal: given there are OTHER THINGS other than agony rewards to discuss about anguish feedback (like builds, other proposals to add t8-t9 in other paths and so on), and slowmode is here because otherwise people will quarrell to much about agony possible nerfs, why don't we have a slowmode thread to discuss AGONY REWARDS EXCLUSIVELY and the normal feedback thread without slowmode, to discuss literally everything else? One example of a thing that should be fixed is the need to heal massively and the screwup to partial red-blue lining caused by entering a raid at a much lower AL than you have in world.

[plush nimbus]

Totally agree

[languid adder]

#1390640960173506642 message

I did you all the courtesy of freeing this thread from actual anguish that spins in circles, so we can return to lower anguish that spins in circles.

[finite flint]

now we need a mod to unlock slowmode here

[languid adder]

Or at least reduce it to an amount where its physically possible to have a proper discussion.

[finite flint]

this is with one item at the proper anguish (12), 2 at 4 (and they provide mag so it would be meaningful to have them at higher Ang) , helm unanguished.

[nocturne night]

I'm sorry, but what loadout do you have to be outputting that much damage?
With the same weapons, summons and buffs my damage is 2.5m, whereas yours is 5.6m.
I'm having a hard time believing that ANG 8 (mine) -> 12 (yours) and Anguish Gear is enough to more than double damage output

[full peak]

@sturdy stump pls tell me how deity is better

[finite flint]

as I said items aren't optimized even lol. by high quality adorns and exact 200 gear matter a lot. nekro isn't even demonforge as I expect to lvl up every hour of raiding or so, so why waste 300 gog stone per level/ gurnnik I auto die vs normal raids this is pure glass Cannon . a Morris took like 4 (very quick) attempts to kill at anguish 8

[sturdy stump]

he dies to literallly any t10 raid

[sonic summit]

Even T8 moondrops raids would kill him before he can use BP

[languid adder]

Summoner

@sturdy stump Protect Chance entered the room
Stasis entered the room
Concern of death left the room

[sonic summit]

You can't play stasis with blood pact

[sturdy stump]

Hoc to gs and try for yourself if you think its so good. Why do you think I hoc'd away from gs?

[finite flint]

you can it's just slower, you miss damage missing sequencer and no double cast and 1 turn bp3. So you are stuck to bp2. Could be fine with 2h

[plush nimbus]

Agony 50+ player I ve seen on orna is GS (not saying it means this is best or not. But it seems to work fine ?)

[sinful vapor]

Hyper-efficiency is not a problem because of other players/pvp, it's a problem because it cheapens everything else in the game and drastically reduces fun and longevity of the single-player game. That's why you balance singleplayer games in the first place, because it's not actually fun otherwise.

Spamming raids to bypass the difficulty guild is not a good outcome for the game.

[languid adder]

I see a lot of other issues with GS, like the super slow sleep, the lack of a pet, the lack of just... In general a fun playstyle.
But survivability outside of PvP was never an issue when i played GS at release x3

[sturdy stump]

I dont want to derail this convo too much, but with GS you have to choose between either speed or survivability, imo moreso than other classes. If you go for survivability you have to rely on summon dps which is slow. If you want damage (like the setup ancientl showed), you have to give up a lot of survivability. GS survivability is basically rng of not getting targeted, because there's no stats or line passive to help you. So while I think damage will not be an issue with higher agony gs raiding, my guess is that survivability will be a problem for the BP builds and thats its basically a matter of rng of whether you die in the first few turns or not. Whereas gilga and deity can just use spiked shield and get good survivability and decent damage in one package. Pet beo can also focus more on survivability while the pet does damage

[left mauve]

that's a shitton more speed than Deity (at least mine) tho, if you compromise some speed to some survivability it might be equals ?
|| Just in case 'cause a lot of people are a little angry around here : that was a legit question, not a troll ||

[full peak]

It is as Ancient said, take 2h staff, you will have ward, take stasis, lesser version of BP etc. 🤷‍♂️

[bronze plinth]

Gotta grind some jorms

[full peak]

Meanwhile poor swash deity doing dmg smh...🫠

[pearl mango]

You just gotta copy abyss and do 10mil a turn

[broken pike]

Idk where you guys are finding all these high agony lvl players lol. Must be majority HoA. I see 3 ppl in the global top 100 with high agony. Then one other outside of global that is referenced here a lot with high agony. The highest being a GS with 239 AL with 50 agony. Other 2 players in the 30s. I'd say the problem still lies in stasis cheese/BP and ss3.

[sonic summit]

Refineries didn't give a lot of points for global classement

[left mauve]

most of Abyss show off are Full buff and with all t.buff up and DC. that's not a "real" day to day fight, it just happen sometime. Also the dude have godtier equipments, adorns and amity.
Frenzy tho...

[full peak]

Like against cactus, with full AL, all zerk buffs and temp aligned? Okay.

If I will add 2 shrooms and wait till all temps align, even that shackled DUrsa swash there would do 15-20 mil hits. 🤷‍♂️

(and for some reason I just noticed I'm missing Atrev charm equiped 😅 )

[snow burrow]

GS is relatively free from Anguish penalties—whether it’s critical, elemental, or other types of penalties.

Also, the equipment’s Summon stat, which scales with Anglv ×3, directly affects BP damage.

Defensively, it might be at a slight disadvantage, but the GS itself only has a chance to be targeted, so it generally has more breathing room.

[pearl mango]

You can also duo and someone stasis for you while he also have 2 summons out which increase bp dmg

[bronze plinth]

Well 3%for gs is nothing

[sonic summit]

If you do that you loose all the pact multipliers, so the stasis guy should not have any summons and it would be like any other specs

I don't think 3% is nothing for BP, you start with a lower summon stats because no benefactor and BP is still quadratic

[pearl mango]

Doesnt bp still have quad scaling?

[sturdy stump]

a nerf that went live a long time ago made it so that pact multipliers such as charon helmet, nekro staff, eos arm etc dont work if summons of another player are on the field. So if you duo with someone that was summons out, your damage kinda tanks

[naive lynx]

What we lack in DMG (non meta players) now is straight up defenses. Like a tank shooting water balloons

[bronze plinth]

I still dont feel the diff increase

[pearl mango]

Do a morrigan/hippo/lyncus/sphinx/great anguish/ashen pheonix/trev/hyperion/finesse/raganarok raids that have 30mil+hp and can spam status effects on you etc

[bronze plinth]

Sry no morri or phoenix spawns yet

[pearl mango]

Just saying cuz this is not fun and hoa have 20% reduced stats so let that sink in

[bronze plinth]

But we have like 10 lvl diff tho. At lvl 9 i dont feel like its much harder than 4

[finite flint]

it might be "best" or at least very good for the specific purpose of raiding a lot of small raids to lvl up quickly; but it's truly horrendous to farm "real raids" with decent base hp + scaling

[plush nimbus]

Yes you re absolutely true

[pearl mango]

I mean yeah you gonna eventually get there though for you its ang15 in orna to have same stats as my 19 i believe

[hushed crow]

Anguish 2.0 from my perspective, tbh I'm a GSA main rhada pact summoner, my ward is 250k doesn't matter cause anguish 15 raids one shot me, so I switch to buffing set up for summons and about 50-70% of the time the buffs don't pass lmao, banner and wintara gear

Leaves me with ASG raiding which gives me about 100k ward which leaves me more breathing room but honestly? I don't feel like I'm getting stronger the more I upgrade my anguish gear, I feel like I'm walking up this never ending hill and getting left behind really fast

Raids extremely slow and tedious ( I love summon raiding, I hate the buffing process )

Dungeons mammon is the only hard cap, he shows up past ang 10 it's pretty much good game, horde goes out the window fast too

World farming feels the same nothing too bad, tbh that's probably the highest anguish we can go using summons as dps

Pvp never cared too much about but like I don't lose much, chimera+cockatrice+spooky ghost, I can perma lock with status effects as long as they don't have immunities lmao

Towers? HAHA maybe anguish 2-4 if I'm feeling it lmao

But overall I mean worldfarming kinda feels the same, content is definitely hard as intended, I kinda don't see the point in anguish gear cause I mean doesn't feel like it does much for me, and I can't use it outside of anguish so like I'd rather use the mats on AL or something, and yeah that's my full experience so far using my class mechanic summons lmao

For rhada pact summoners and summoners that like to use their summons as their main mechanic, I'd like to see a better buffing process, it hurts and is very painful ( I've spent near 40 turns trying to get snotra on summons before, don't even talk about my sacrifice great monocoros for mythril buffs that's way over 100 turns lmao )

And yknow just new summons lmao

[harsh geyser]

The lack of defense on that max-BP build is no joke.

We're talking like 10k hp 20k ward, no def/res to speak of, no SC or steadfast. Killing T8 jorms I was getting whittled down from his Chain Lightning 😆 hitting for like 3-4k a time, and definitely had to switch to a Vritra charm for para immune.

The summon protect% is a lot worse than you're thinking (at best 50% of attacks get redirected). Luckily raids can just be retried after you die; I usually clear like 80-90% of raids in a pass then come back for the rest later.

Switched off hererobe for something defensive with +stats, aforementioned vritra, and switched from a +200 arisen to a +170 archgizmo without -defres.

[bronze plinth]

Once odie fixes the stat bonus things i will do rhadapact build testings

[finite flint]

Ok so with regards to BP duo after the nerfs to BP multiplier, the idea is the SUMMONER ISN'T THE CASTER. The Summoner is the fuel, the caster is Hera/Beo/deity. For fast raiding Beoh is best as usual, other 2 classes are good anyway, hera ara better (and should be better yet) for high HP targets. The FUEL plays max stat with beithir 2h and simply casts that turn one as the only thing he does. That's between 1 and 3 turns, caster anyway goes off on turn 3. Builds are max summon stat (and that adds up with anguish passive scaling even if additive i think), the caster is QUICKCAST, with AF macha pillar offhand (max mag), so sequencer, aaru robe, aaru hood + fss is total YOLO (low ang and so on), otherwise swtich head and/or leg into defensive piece. Same for accessories. Amity has damage breaking, weapon as well from anguish passive unless hera ara then you do whatever you want with amity and weapon passive (dam penetration doesn't work with BP per Pie testing). We were turn 4 a Morri pre-anguish guaranteed in the past, should be the fastest way to kill high hp in duo at high anguish. Ofc you can still die but both builds aren't necessarily YOLO defenseless, the summoner can fortify the caster, legs can give ward turns if no broken 2-3 lines amity to provide that additionally. @harsh geyser at which anguish level did you feel you needed to switch from pure glass cannon to a bit more balanced? i was using lyncus rings then i said whatever i don't take damage anyway and i went allin on arisen rings. Currently low yet here at 13 only though EDIT: my bad head or legs are dynasty for 1 turn DC ofc for the caster

[languid adder]

That... Basically is the same for deity too.
I can go finesse, but if i die then is also random if the boss decides to hit me for weakness or just randomly use 1-3 strong spells.

Ofc we can go spiked shield... But then we are also slow.

I am VERY certain that on high anguish, with basically +15% pet stats per anguish level, and BP quad scaling, ignoring the majority of maluses and so on, summoner will not need defenses later on and will outclass anything else in 1v1 cause BP is just irrationally strong.

[naive lynx]

Patch notes when?

[tacit ridge]

Patch notes:

• GS has been deleted

[naive lynx]

Odie - GS is now a spec like it should have been. I'm sorry for adding a busted but broken class all at the same time

[exotic jasper]

Fixed a bug where a weird Class line called "Elysian" appeared as class tree

[next flame]

https://tenor.com/view/йокелемене-men-in-black-light-sunglasses-gif-15516530

[plush nimbus]

#💡│suggestions message
Suggestion regarding despair path. Activable option to automatically send and receive invitation to join fight in world map
@arctic whale see..

[arctic whale]

Suggested 45m ago 🤔

Something about the top 0.0001% telling people how to play rubs me the wrong way. Like Bezos or Musk thinking they know how the rest of the world lives 😂

[plush nimbus]

#1377194080718553150 message
And this is 12 days ago

[arctic whale]

Still unsure what your point is and why you are so adamant on proving it to me. 🤷

[bronze plinth]

Os gear

[snow sage]

Yo, lower tier raids should drop maximum amount of proofs based on their tier; ☆8 would drop max 8 proofs.

[pearl mango]

Raids should drop more proofs if their lower tier 🦛

[full peak]

And chance to drop proofs should be some kind of multiplier ...I would take that.

[plush nimbus]

Is there some informations we could get from ORN/NF about the agony path cheese topic ? Something may be done soon ?

[naive lynx]

Way too gone at this point I think, also intrigued though since NF has been quiet recently

[left mauve]

i think Odie took some holidays
(which is perfectly fine ofc)

[naive lynx]

Oh agreed, I was just expecting to see some sort of feedback when he returned. There's been a TON of feedback, concerns, and conversations over the week or so. Probably still reading the thousands of messages 😂

[paper void]

i'm only returning this week

[plush nimbus]

I though it was last week. Really sorry. Hope you enjoyed your holidays.

[harsh geyser]

Way too gone at this point I think
A week is rough, but ultimately not that bad. I know on day 3 and day 5 people were already saying "the cheese is too much, it's already too far gone".

If it's worth fixing, it's worth fixing now or any time after imo. The target for the fixes isn't the people that abused an overly-rewarding strat and deprived themselves of gameplay, the target is for new players that are coming up in the days to come. The new blood might enjoy an agony path that isn't solved.

[supple cape]

https://tenor.com/view/혼파망-피자-당황-community-chaos-gif-16635574 Odie returning PoV

[pulsar scroll]

I hate coming back to work and finding 300 unread emails. Imagine coming back to 300 emails plus all of our Discord shenanigans.

[grave fulcrum]

How does the 10% def res passive from anguish work currently

[bronze plinth]

Most passives do not work atm

[sturdy stump]

1.1x M1, 0.9x M2. I.e. total damage is about the same but slightly more m1. But it was broken for blood pact specifically. Does seem to work normally on other spells/skills

[dim jacinth]

i thought you did the math on that and found a different result

[tacit ridge]

I’d like everyone’s feedback on a potential suggestion regarding this topic. I know similar ones have been made, just trying to aggregate them into one and see how the community feels about it in general:

• T8 raid proofs reduced to 50%, T9 raids reduced to 75%.
• In order to help bring other paths on par, T8 and T9 enemies would now drop proofs in every content, at the same rates as above.

[exotic jasper]

why limit proofs statically to tiers? Doesnt anguish start at T8?

[plush nimbus]

Nice to see you come to the same conclusion after testing the lower tier raids thing.
I would prefer slightly differents numbers but it may be part of the solution yes.

[tacit ridge]

The numbers are mostly to not completely nuke lower tier content, while also making it viable in other formats of content

[grave fulcrum]

If you Wana test it again and double check I'd love to know

[hushed crow]

T9 on HOA but tbh I don't see much reason to limit it either, T9s should have some shot at anguish content or why even have it open for them? Lmao, and the people abusing T8 jorms rn? There's not too much a problem, jorm isn't going to be here all year or anything, it lasts a month

[finite flint]

i think this is a good solution, and snake prices should increase as well

[exotic jasper]

i would rather suggest decreasing proof earning from tiers smaller than yours (if you want to reduce it) rather than statically reducing proofs from T8 and T9. This way T8 and T9 players will not receive less proofs from same tier raids.

[grave fulcrum]

Add a line of code that says if same tier give normal rewards

[languid adder]

I like it, of BOTH get introduced at the same time.
@exotic jasper I think that is the point. -1 tier 75%, -2 tiers 50%.

[plush nimbus]

#💡│suggestions message
Suggestion to have several malus paths we can switch between for each content on ang 2.0

[tacit ridge]

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1392113838329172129 Can anyone check if they’ve found a similar bug?

[sinful vapor]

Yeah I hope in all these discussions, when people say "lower t8 gains" they mean "lower gains from tiers below you". And I don't think it should stop at two tiers below; t6 raids like Cerus should just have the same rates as t8 at that point

@tacit ridge there's this one, which may also explain some discrepancies people have found when testing other stuff #1384372091020771338 message

It's not exactly what you asked about, sorry. Maybe the accuracy malus is actually a -1.5%?

[tacit ridge]

Yes, that is what I meant in my suggestion, should have made it clearer for other tiers.

It could be that accuracy is actually 1.5 but that would be inconsistent with some other bonuses/maluses having their decimals shown.

I was also wondering if those larger boxes with a lot of maluses could be overflowing and hiding an extra -1% accuracy

[languid adder]

-3 40% -4 30%

(The 10 minutes timer is just trolling at this point)

@sinful vapor edit for new message

True, we should let T7 and below not drop anything at this point, cause before anguish 10-15 they wont be ANY challenge, and after, they are a mild annoyance at best then.

[sinful vapor]

I think lowering rates for two tiers below you is just overkill at that point. There's no reason to lower it that much beyond 50%, and there's raids below t6 anyway; do we really want t5 scruug to drop 20% agony proof rates? Why?

[tacit ridge]

I don’t mind -3 and -4 being deeper cuts, since they won’t dilute the summoning scroll pool, and that prevents future events that have them being a problem

[sinful vapor]

You still spawn them from some scroll types. Crimson scrolls and festive scrolls are the ones that I mentioned before. I don't feel like they'd be a problem, but maybe festives?

[turbid sedge]

No one knows if the ang trait that does not stack is wanted by NF or if it is officially a bug ?

[pearl mango]

That would just be a not needed nerf like phil said overkill for no reason only thing that matters is 8/9t

[raven bane]

Imo melancholy needs a buff but not this large. I think this would be like a 50-60% increase.

Despair I don't think needs a buff but 9s dropping proofs would be nice for the usability angle of affinity candle and would make path more satisfying.

I think torment should have all mobs drop since they are t10 level and have an appropriate decrease in rate. But think this path should still be tuned lower in terms of proofs since shards are already very lucrative.

Agony changes I think would be very dependent on how events are handled.

[exotic jasper]

Fully agree about Torment proofs. Anguished nidhoggs are no joke

[grave fulcrum]

I'd have to disagree with the tower buff personally because you got tower shards every fight you do you get mats every floor complete and proof of torment for new anguish that's 3 ways to get mats 2 you can choose

[languid adder]

Exactly my thought Process too.
If we give T8 and T6 same rates, then we have lesser snake scrolls again...

[raven bane]

That's what I mean when I say appropriate decrease. I don't really think it needs a buff, just that from usability standpoint would be better if we didn't have to pick and choose mobs, since all are pretty strong and at t10 levels.

[grave fulcrum]

Post patch update cost

[trail radish]

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1346138289064640542

[finite flint]

ok so t8 snakes fixed, i guess the rest stays as it is. Curious about the "new hordes" in towers

[merry mica]

So basically people voted « don’t change anything » and it got changed anyway

[sinful vapor]

As if the masses knew what was best for them 😂 54% voted for "don't nerf my gains", that's hardly impressive

[drowsy knoll]

That's how we roll 🤣

[nocturne night]

To be fair, the second highest vote was to nerf drop rate, rather than scroll cost, and that wasn't picked either.
Odie's polling opinions, but in the end it's his decision, not ours.

[craggy flame]

NF chose the wrong option lmaoo
Not everyone is t10/t11

[nimble dawn]

i had enough tokens to buy 200 of them to finish leveling my t9 alt, I had not bought them yet as I was hoping i would not need all of them and could buy t10 instead

guess i will find a way to get him to t10 instead of theses and have more t10 scrolls to gear him

Things under t10 should be means to gear a alt, not powerlevel them.
Something something 10 minute timer means I have to edit this message instead

Mind you @merry mica , most of the time the nerfs are reductions in cost where the tryhard paid 5x the cost for things before prices goes down. This is a rare time where the nerf actualy MASSIVELY benefit early abusers

[nocturne night]

Up to them to decide which option is right or wrong lol

[pearl mango]

I think this somehow fixed the issue making t8 jorms x3 less efficient to craft to the point where Why would you craft them instead of t10 jorms and benefit from their gear drops

[grave fulcrum]

Just use crimson scrolls and make t8 scrolls to finish you can grind more t10 out after he's t10

[merry mica]

So basically people abused the f* out of that for days and when they had 5k scrolls decided it was time for everybody else to be blocked. Gotcha.
You’ve got to admire how it’s always the top hardcore that try to abuse things and then ask for a nerf whenever they are happy to be way ahead of everybody. Nice. The same with most of the nerfs that are happening for a while in Orna.
Why can’t you guys let the average player that is not treating this as a job play this game to relax and have fun instead of trying to make it as painful as you can. You want to be try hards, fine.. but let us enjoy the game instead of making us all miserable.

[nocturne night]

So would you say that it'd be best to leave it in the game and remain abuseable?
Because if an "exploit" hasn't been fixed day one, then it should remain in the game forever?

If you apply that logic, you can't ever get rid of any outliers

[grave fulcrum]

Why should a t10 be allowed to make t8 scrolls to begin with. It seems you're upset you didn't abuse it while you could and it's still abusable just 3x as costly so instead of 20 raids in 1 wrb raid and 2 kg raids it's about 7. I agree nf fucked up but they can only fix things when they have data for it

[nimble dawn]

I liked how the first titan event with the moondrops, the drop rate nerfs were made after the event ended, not during. to avoid this kind of "rugpull" to people not being early abusers.

@nocturne night I think it's because the problem been here for more than a week, the ship sailed, tons of people already abused it and shared that around, unlike a day 1 exploit that gets patched before it becomes a mass/well known thing

i have the means to live without it, since my goal was easy scrolls for my t9, I am not in a hurry to max my anguish guild, but i 100% expect this is what the main negative reactions will be tied to (proof, still anguish 5 for raids, if I cared, i could be 20 like many people i know)

Odie always has a shitty hand to play, since no matter how he fixes it , people are going to be pissed. So it's not a case of "how dare he" for me.
Even if he had powers of rollback or compensation calculation, that one would not be solvable by a partial refund of anything. So heh
I do wish Oddie would track when he starts an event for the new items being bought so that if he realise he needs to slash prices by half, he can do partial refunds to all the transactions done prior to the price change, but that is not related to this

[merry mica]

I never abuse in the game or anything even if I know I can do it. Maybe that’s just a retarded mentality to want to abuse things in life I don’t know.
I had enough tokens to do a lot of them and I didn’t. The same way when I learn about some exploits I decide to play the normal way instead of trying to absolutely abuse. It’s like I know I could bot fishing because so many are doing it and I am not, just because there is a « right and wrong » way to play. Call me stupid if you want.

@nocturne night see what was written just above to answer your question. No, I would not let it but at the same time there are ways to do it. Either you fix it day 1 by following the stats after your patch and realise what’s going on… or you make it after the fact for a later iteration.

[nocturne night]

Fixing it day 1 was not an option for a couple of reasons - main one being Odie was having time off, and wasn't around to monitor or change things.
It was still fixed as soon as they could - delaying it further would only further devalue Anguish as a lategame activity.

[grave fulcrum]

It sounds like you'd have never used it anyways so why are you mad anyways either you abuse it while you can or you play "with honor" if it was left in the game it would been much worse if it's removed you're still complaining and it doesn't actually fix anything.

[sinful vapor]

Let's also keep in mind this wasn't exactly an exploit... it was well-known that t8 jorm would be a cheap way to boost agony, it was mentioned in this thread ahead of time, and it's an in-game balance issue, not exploit. If we determine that a class is OP due to balancing, it would not be an exploit to use that class lol

[nimble dawn]

It was known it was coming yes, It was somewhat expected, when you can do the same thing with moondrops
And they were known to be amazing t8 and t9 boosters

all in all, was a good raid for multiple purpose

@grave fulcrum they are amazing for boosting, and you alsao get t10 raids if the question becomes of nerfing token drops for raid under your tier

@atomic ermine : to seperate context mastery, instead of a whole encompasing "farming dungeons to get better tower rewards

I really should get my t11 badge again, at some point

[grave fulcrum]

Moon drops are still just as good for boosting ang I think

[atomic ermine]

Are the prices the same for all 4 proofs ? If yes, what's the point of having 4 types of proofs ? (edit : isn't 10 minutes slow mode a bit too much ?)

[paper void]

should smashing raids progress the dungeon path?

[merry mica]

I don’t care as I am t11 for a long while and don’t intend to kill myself on anguish farming for the sake of it. My comment was much wider than just this particular raid cost fix. It is a reflection of a lot of things that happened over the last few months or years that led to this comment. Seems like there’s a pattern. And I am only relaying other people’s feedback that happen in other discords than here. I’m not the only one thinking that. But at the end of the day like John say, Odie will do whatever he wants as usual so it doesn’t matter whatever we discuss here. Just voicing it. Getting it out of our system and moving on. Hoping that next time there will be some decisions done beforehand instead of being an afterthought that puts us in that situation.

[atomic ermine]

Besides the rank progress, it just become an hindrance. Now you've to wait for the material you want AND the proof you have. Considering some proofs are largely harder to get, it's very frustrating. How about a tab to convert the 4 proofs into the old one with variable trade ratio, and use it to buy stuff ?

[nimble dawn]

One way conversion into "shop proof" that you use to buy things with? And cannot convert them back to their specific type's proof?
like if you made titan guild currency upgrade but instead of it being for celestial classes and weapons, it's to use the shop

same conversion rate, and required to buy shop stuff,

I somewhat agree waiting for anguish shop to have the things I want in the currency I have would be annoying, even more if you used anguish 1.0 to buy mats and this one, you see the mat you want but not in the currency you have

[grave fulcrum]

Different content so you can't grind 1 type and benefit in others. I like having to have the right proof at the right time

[paper void]

It’s been a pretty common suggestion to allow using any proof to buy stuff. That’s noted and I’m not sure needs to be revisited atm

[daring terrace]

For better or worse Orna has always taken a "we'll fix it when it's live" approach

This is the end result of that

[finite flint]

t8 snake prices had to go up. It was just too broken. I do agree that having the same prices for currencies that are significantly different in drop rate per hour of activity doesn't make much sense on paper UNLESS you take into account the fact the activities themselves are different... which is kinda the point. Despair and melancholy you can farm "infinite" , despair give a lot more proofs/hour but it's more boring and less extra rewards (no eod, no random mats, no random drops from mammon, swangsong chance and so on). Agony you need the scrolls to begin with it's ok if it is better. Maybe it's too much better, but it is ok if it is better. Tower is the best way to progress AL and farm mats/currency to unblock, adding proofs to that is just gravy, so it's ok if you don't get a huge ton while doing something that is already very rewarding

[paper void]

Odie will do whatever he wants as usual so it doesn’t matter whatever we discuss here. Just voicing it.

What? This change is a direct result of what has been discussed here

[livid sonnet]

found this horde in towers, i like new hordes >:D found another one with a nin-kilim, posting it here because it's anguish related

[sinful vapor]

If it's not what I wanted, you didn't listen to me

[supple cape]

I like that there are new hordes, but I'm annoyed that it has 0 T10 enemies.

[craggy flame]

?? all the new hordes are t9?

[paper void]

It has T10 enemies

but there is an issue where T8 enemies are being added

[short osprey]

I feel like Medea shouldn't really be an encounter in towers... #👋│general message

[craggy flame]

shes the antibot measure 🤣

[peak spade]

i love that Medea is in towers tbh

[merry mica]

You mean the poll that had 54% against changes ?
Unless it changed in the meantime

[pearl mango]

Actually smart keep medea

[paper void]

No - your comment didn’t appear to be referencing the poll, but rather this thread

But if we are going to cover the poll too - developers need to weigh in many variables when making balance/game health decisions. Player opinion is a very important one, but it should not completely overrule others when making decisions for the health of a game

[pearl mango]

Question after you fix the bug all new packs in tower should be t10 right

Ok thx

[paper void]

9/10

[merry mica]

Sure, I also agree it had to be fixed and I also discussed it in other channels with some other people that actually requested the nerf itself. It is just that it was known before and got abused to oblivion and then suddenly « fixed » but I guess it could have been prevented in the first place as people voiced it before hand.
I am not here to be a ball breaker.

[languid adder]

Odie is by far the biggest contender for "cares about the community" from all the games i played
If he would just want to do what he wants without care, we would not have this INSANE amount of feedback channels, beg report channels, and the #💡│suggestions

One minute... THANK YOU ODIE <3

Read the patch notes - im allowed to have a life again.
Thanks. :)

[merry mica]

Man, I’m here for over 5 years day in day out. Please. No need to be a fanboy, we are all grateful for the game. Been supporter too. I am just saying that there are some flukes that I’m sure could be prevented in the future so people don’t get worked up. It is great to praise for the good work but it’s also as important to say when things are not great or there are some things that break. This is how it works.

[languid adder]

i made my account 2020.
I have my fair share of issues with Orna, and Odie.
But saying he doesnt care is very farfetched.

[full peak]

Why can’t you guys let the average player that is not treating this as a job play this game to relax and have fun instead of trying to make it as painful as you can. You want to be try hards, fine.. but let us enjoy the game instead of making us all miserable.

So, you feel misserable you weren't allowed to farm smoll Jorms 10 hours a day past week?

Me, in farming fairly regular player - tho high AL, would never spend resources on buying T8 scrolls (I bought like ~200 in that past week eventually, as my first T8 scrolls). I would rather spend time to farm and get T10 and not spend anymore time there then I have to. So the change isn't really affecting you - average player - at all, no?

Me confused. A lot.

[languid adder]

the patchnotes read to me "this is gonna be bad"
And i hate that i was right DX

[pearl mango]

And the patch odie dropped just made even buying t8 jorms pointless unless your a lowertier player

No one would now go for t8 jorms when t10,are a bit more expensive and more beneficial in terms of gear and etc

Patch pretty much solved the abuse of t8 jorms

[languid adder]

since i already have all fey gear, i dont really need T10 one - mats wise, its kinda not big of a difference anymore. If im not overlooking something, it doesnt really make a big difference now what of the two you kill.

[pearl mango]

Uhm anguished gear? If i kill an ang 30 t10 jorm i saved myself 30demon tools and 4500of each mat the gear needs

[languid adder]

oh, sure. Yes. Good point.
Im currently sticking to 4 as with AL i need to reach at least 18 according to my math for it to be somewhat worthwhile playing anguish shackled.
und getting .38% reward increase at anguish 9 for 85% enemy stats is just nonsensical.
So i dont really think about anguish gear until 2026/2027

[pearl mango]

Idk what class you main but from my experience most classes do good at 0als in all content idk about a year or 2 to reach ang30

[languid adder]

I cant make polls :C I just spend like 5 minutes making a poll regards to lower tier proof drops to get some intel.
Can i hit up someone with permissions for that kinda stuff?

[languid adder]

"doing good" has nothing to do with "turning your hard earned progress into plot tokens for no compensation"
Current shackle system is terrible for high AL players, and i refuse to engage with it, as long as its this bad.
Its not about doing good, its about principle.

[pearl mango]

Ah welp to each their opinion i respect it maybe NF will come to a solution in the future thatll satisfy everyone

[sturdy stump]

most people dont seem to find it as bad as you describe, so why exactly do you think its so bad?

[languid adder]

i went over this a lot.

Mostly the fact i am forced in a fake decision that ends in a lose-lose.
I either forfeit the majority of my power, for no payoff and no compensation, to get full rewards, in which im much slower to obtain those.
Or i am not forfeiting my power, and the enemy sstill get their full stat bonus, while i get an average of a .1% increase in proof drops, which is not reasonable.

[plush nimbus]

On one hand, I'm happy something has been done. I can see it helping a bit..
On the other hand, I'm not happy for the option choosen. Maybe it's a temporary one, I don't know. But I can see a world where this change doesn't stop from abusing agony path at all. And I'm a bit disappointed about it tbf.
Absolutely not blaming Odie/NF tho, as they took into account the talks here, and tried a fix as soon as Odie came back to work.
@languid adder because if it may be seen as a fix for some player, it's absolutely ridiculous for some others ready to keep abusing for it just like when the prize was 1. Some here talk about how it helped "top" players and so on. When the cost was 1, it was a cheese, now that the cost is 3, it may affect some kind of player, but it remains the same cheese as long as you re ok to aim for it = "top" min-max player will go for it just the same.
But it's the opinion of a "top" player who shared this issue and guess what ? Started the month at 9 agony and is still at 9.

[languid adder]

What makes you unhappy about the fix?

[broken pike]

The real question is when can we expect to see fixed miss chance removed from ss 🥱. Should have never made it out of beta like that

[paper void]

it may be step 1 of many, we'll see

the 1/1 cost was appropriate before the rune currency conversion was added, so it needed to be changed regardless

[merry mica]

You clearly didn’t read my answers under. That’s fine. I don’t care about t8 scroll, I care about the fix, decision and timing. Completely different. And the way people abused it. But it’s not for « that » instance I am annoyed it’s for the cumulate of it the last few times where top players abuse things and then ask for a nerf and other people get f* for playing normally and taking their time.
Anyway that’s me done in that thread. Won’t change what happens and happened.

[paper void]

that problem is going to exist for any major correction in any game - no? what is unique to Orna about that?

[languid adder]

not related to anguish tho.
Feel free to make a new gilga thread! :D

[plush nimbus]

Thank you for this answer Odie. Again, really appreciate your job, this update, and you taking into account feedback shared here.
I wish it's not the only fix planed for it indeed.

[paper void]

gilga's dead though?

[languid adder]

thats what they want to make you believe so you buff them

[supple cape]

I see exactly what you are frustrated with, and I'm going to encourage you to give forfeiting your power a fair shot. I climbed agony to 10 and it has been absurdly refreshing that I can't just piledrive every raid with post-nerf towerfall; I actually have to adjust my build and try new things that I have never considered before. Yes, Lyncus specifically can kick rocks... but having to actually delve into heresy like towerfall with a shield to survive has been the most fun I've had in Orna raiding in a while.

[wintry vector]

Is it possible to make the demonforging tools not require an anguish guild level. My casual slow af playing self still ain't found an anguished item naturally

[languid adder]

its not that im against giving up my power, at all, im looking forward to that exactly. I just dont like getting punished for having this power, or getting punished by giving up this power, no compensation.

[supple cape]

Extra raid luck is actually gigantic compensation in some ways. For example, crest of felling + great felling on Agony 10 gives 100% chance for legendary items to drop if you solo the raid; I got a nice stock of lyncus bristles from that, even if that jerk didn't give me anything better than a superior beastfelled garb. And I can definitely say that I feel like I am getting ornates more often.

[languid adder]

Doesnt really change anything.
I get this raidluck reagrdless if i am shackled or have the appropriate AL required.
Do i get more raid luck for shackling? To compensate for the AL forfeited?

[supple cape]

I imagine the straight extra raid luck is nerfed a bit, but that extra .01s on ornates I don't think so. Take my words with a grain of salt, I've just left shackles on since I hit 5 though.

[languid adder]

its still not something i get exclusively for shackling, that i recieve for the AL forfeited.
My issue is, i recieve nothing for the AL forfeited, compared to someone who just has their max AL at at under max shackle level.

im farming 4 till shackles are not punishing veterans anymore. Until a compensation is introduced.
We talked about that here already, and we had ideas to it, so its not off the earth. ^^

[supple cape]

I mean if you don't enjoy the progression difficulties for marginally more then that's not a big deal. I am shackled to 38 on agony 10, so my shackles will be naturally gone within a few levels since I'm at AL47.

[languid adder]

and im at AL 100. I will take... much longer until im allowed to be myself again X3
Its an issue that most people have an opinion on in regards to their AL.
Cant see much backlash from low AL players about this, cause it doesnt ever affect them.

[supple cape]

What do you mean it doesn't ever affect them? I'll get unshackled naturally more quickly, where I will take literally forever to catch up to your AL anyways. Low AL players are plenty affected.

[languid adder]

exactly, you get unshackled much more quickly, that means that, the lower the AL of the player, the faster they reach unpenalized unshackled. Aka, it affects them lesser, the lower their AL.
Also works the other way around.
Did you know the maximum reduction is up to 95%, which means that for agony 4 to 9, i get .38% proof chance added, and the raids gain 82% stats? :)

[pearl mango]

Gilga currently is either event gear from 2 specific events beguiled Y/pumpkinless or the class is litterly unplayable

[solid tiger]

If only there was an option that allowed you to get the full benefits...

[languid adder]

thats what the ppl say who always thought gilga is spiked shield and nothing else.

[languid adder]

...to take away hundreds of hours of progression from you for no compensation, in something labeled as endgame content?

Sure is.

[broken pike]

It's actually an anguish problem as well.

[pearl mango]

Gilga is Spikedshield/chained and nothing else everything else is bad unviable and slow

[grave fulcrum]

You can still build a CD rend daggers/Ultima strikes on g.ursa
Pretty sure CD remd daggers was one of gilga ursa and base gilgas best damage builds

[broken pike]

High m1 and fixed miss better than any other fixed miss skill with no maluses in anguish. Removing fix missed would actually be a little more detrimental for it. I can get started on the pvp BS in another thread though

[pearl mango]

Like i said what you can build doesnt mean its not very slow to the point i dont wanna even do it i tried alot of gilga builds everything we use is so bad compared to when others use it cs/ss is all we have that makes us good

[languid adder]

CD is vastly underutilized, thats all im saying about gilgamesh in the anguish tread.

[supple cape]

You are looking at the completed endgame state and not the progression state in between. Every agony level makes each of your superboss scrolls more loot effective per scroll; if you want to farm on 4 just to optimize time input then go for it, but you are giving yourself better odds for a lesser scroll input if you push.

[dim jacinth]

ultimastrikes raiding on agony feels faster to me, gunnr attack pot frenzy. dying isn't a problem with enough raids up

[grave fulcrum]

It's not slow tho gilga att is pitiful when compared to every other class. A max CD damage build us or rend daggers was 6 turns faster than ss3 builds

At least for low al >50

[languid adder]

which i get, but it does the same for someone AL 30 and someone AL 300 shackled to 30, forfeiting 270.
Thats the point im making.

Im not saying the progression is useless, never did - im saying my progression is not respected more then as plot tokens to level up anguish, especially not worth a lot cause you can just ascend low/unused classes to basically get free anguish levels, for barely any costs.

[pearl mango]

What do you use build/agony level your raiding at

[pearl mango]

Well those amitys/perfect gear
Will it work against this?

[dim jacinth]

shrug, clearly not there yet

[grave fulcrum]

More than likely with a few tries but then again I'm pretty sure it would take near perfect gear to live that anyways. And at that point pretty sure ss3 is better anyways because ward becomes a non-issue and building full att and about 300k ward is more than enough

[pearl mango]

I have 320k/8k att ward ill try to record later my experience killing hippo
Generally tho no ward regen is an issue until 450-500k ish ward if you use frenzy

[grave fulcrum]

Kill the raid in 7 turns

[pearl mango]

Ah hell no more like 3mins

[grave fulcrum]

Frenzy start to end of raid ss3 should be easy to damage cap and CD damage should give you enough to push past 80m in 7 turns of damage

[pearl mango]

Idk about that maybe if i had 100more als

[grave fulcrum]

What al are you I thought 8k was kinda weak since bof exist and Ik I could do that much att with 20 als give or take

[languid adder]

You cant show this! Have you forgot that Gilga is supposed to be dead!? D:

[pearl mango]

42

[languid adder]

anything above 180k ward doesnt increase your damage and is raw survivability, or makes you spam SS longer - if you go tanky you miss out on damage.

[grave fulcrum]

You should be pushing 12k easily if your running max pinions and beguiled y gear

[pearl mango]

Thats worse than any other class doing it and he have the perfect gear for it

[languid adder]

recommend bristles instead of pinions if possible. Better experience

[grave fulcrum]

Um it's 200k ward unless you have testing to prove 180 is that limit

[pearl mango]

Will get onetapped by the 2nd hit by hippo

[languid adder]

Um how much of 200k is 30%?
Not 50k.

[solid tiger]

At some point you will be able to progress further in anguish for better rewards and more proofs, while someone with lower ALs simply won't be able to do

[pearl mango]

Also if i have 200k ward ss3 will consume 50k per hit plus frenzy consuming %ward i will hit twice before my ward is 0

[grave fulcrum]

You don't need bristles with frenzy why would you run bristles what so ever for a ss3 build when the goal is to hit wall with bigger wall. Bristles legit nerf ss3 damage because they take attack away. And this shows you're not updated on gilga since update. If gilga has a better % consumed than other classes then I could see 180k but deity it's 200k regardless

[somber nymph]

Hello thread that I avoid at all costs

Please vote in this poll:

Are you happy with Shackles exactly as they exist right now in-game?

#🍂│late-game-⭐10 message

[pearl mango]

Lol

[languid adder]

so -12 attack is worse then -40 from pinions?
WHAT!?
Speaking about not beeing updated.

[pearl mango]

Im not sure your updated on gilga or ss3 but i would like you to try using your suggestions to see how bad it is

[grave fulcrum]

Why do you need crit in an ss3 build????? It's spiked shield it doesn't crit it hasn't in more than 2 years pinions to me is 24 att -40 def and mana at standard they get stronger as you give them quality and scale beautifully with anguish lvls

[somber nymph]

I voted "No" here because I feel like shackles fail all around at their current levels.

Right now shackles don't exist, then briefly slow down progression, and then basically go away, meaning that for all practical purposes they really only frustrate players and then stop mattering.

[languid adder]

oh youre talking about red feathers.
Mixed them up for pinions.
Pinions always referenced to ashen pinions when i had a convo in the past 5 years.

Also, CD exists, and bristles give CD. So i automatically went to pinions meaning ashens.

[grave fulcrum]

No I'm talking about crimson pinions, feathers are useless and have been for a while now. Also frenzy gives 100% CD chance no one builds chance anymore unless they're not using frenzy which is a mistake

[somber nymph]

I ended up proposing this in the ORN chat, but I may as well also bring it to the people:

To also solve the "it's never worth grinding for anguished gear" issue:

• Shackles do not effect any of the %s gained from increasing anguish levels. Basically, they no longer impact normal anguish progression.
• Shackles force players to be the minimum AL for an anguish level, always. Giving an outlet for people to face an optional extremely difficult challenge.
• All ornates dropped while Shackled are anguished

This gives an optional brutal challenge with a huge reward, and enables a way to intentionally farm anguished gear. Shackles are removed from the normal anguish proof grind, because in the current implementation they get removed from the anguish proof grind anyway.

It also resolves an issue that you basically can't farm anguished gear right now. The only thing it makes sense to do unless you get lucky is grind out proofs and use Tools & Crucibles.

[languid adder]

yes, then nvm. I mistook pinions for ashens cause i never heard someone talk about the feathers, that was my bad.

[harsh geyser]

I voted "No" because unshackled shouldn't exist. Anguish should be all-shackled-all-the-time, and balance and implementation numbers should expect that. The ang4 carveout sucks and really takes too much of the guild away.

[split narwhal]

...I still have CD chance. In many cases I use the same gear as in dungeons and I'm to lazy to readorn all the time haha.

[somber nymph]

That's fine as well. I wanted to make the poll because I feel like the current 'middle ground' shackles tend toward making fewer people happy than either more extreme end of the shackled spectrum.

[languid adder]

What does the first point change? That is already the case?
or am i taking some of it wrong

[grave fulcrum]

Have you never built an attack based bof build ever? These are literally a requirement regardless of the gear you use to ensure max damage. In the past realms and gilgas couldn't because they had 0 mana after 11 crimson pinions or so but Polly y gear solved that issue and made gilgas only need to build att and a total of 200k ward

[somber nymph]

Right now unless you shackle you get reduced rewards. I am proposing just scrapping that entirely.

[languid adder]

im using BoF for months now, after the awful grind to get it.
And no, i did drop gilga right after the first spiked shield change cause i wanted a class that doesnt rely on one gimmick that, if changed, can kill the entire class. (Back then there was no CD)

[languid adder]

Oh, now i get what you mean.
So basically, shackles will no longer disrespect high AL players, but, you can enable them for an added, good challenge, to make farming anguish gear more reliable?
Add a tiny bit of butter on the bread and we're cooking

[somber nymph]

Exactly. Just remove shackles from the anguish grind entirely. You could turn a much more extreme version of them on just because it would be for farming anguished gear. Proof chances or anything else wouldn't be effected.

It gives an outlet for players to actually be challenged, while removing the high AL complaint of ALs being locked away in the standard guild grind.

[pearl mango]

Cant you play unshackled currently?

[grave fulcrum]

Then you should know minimum that ss3 doesn't crit you should then know that crimson pinions ensure max att and bristles take att away while offering nothing worth while to gilga because frenzy now exists giving 100% CD chance and that gilgas only concern with it is how are they gonna maintain double ward consumption problems other than going for more ward after reaching a specific al and more than 12000 att. Next time you Wana talk about a class you don't play or a class mech you don't understand entirely test yourself and ask for clarification on that mechanic before you spread misinformation about how the class is broken or they should use this instead of that

[somber nymph]

Doing so nerfs rewards pretty heavily. But then the way shackles currently work everyone is unshackled before too many anguish levels anyway, so there's not exactly a ton of challenge either.

I feel like the current implementation is the worst of both worlds.

[languid adder]

i didnt touch gilga for a few years, my memory of it is mostly when SS still crit.
Please stop assuming things about me constantly, its childish, and doesnt help.

[grave fulcrum]

Ss3 hasn't crit in over 2 years I'm thinking it stopped critting before I played the game for a year and that was 4 years ago

[pearl mango]

Althought i dont agree with some of the harsh wording
Gilga currently is the most gear/al dependent class in the whole game anything we do we need to invest x5 more than others to do good and if anyone disagree try it for yourself and see

[languid adder]

yes, but i play since 2020, i do remember a time when it crit, so when someone says "gilga" and "pinions" in the same sentence after years of me not talking about it, i think about ashen pinions. I already said that was my bad, really no need to attack me further.

[grave fulcrum]

I've played since 2021 I know for sure it didn't crit in 2022

[languid adder]

What does that add...?

[grave fulcrum]

You said you haven't played gilga since the update for CD which was 2 years ago

[languid adder]

correct, i mained it before the change.

[somber nymph]

I'm so glad this lengthy argument is taking place inside the Anguish feedback thread

[pearl mango]

Ahh fair i can see it althought i played shackled until they got removed cuz i didnt have much al anyways then i was using anguished gear to make up for the lack of dmg etc

[languid adder]

i cant find a reaction sticker to say "okay, youre right, ill stop" passively so ill just say it like this. Sorry about that.

[grave fulcrum]

Im gonna walk away now cuz I'm definitely entering rude and harsh words territory and I'd rather not put that here if you would like to continue discussing this please feel free to dm me but I am ending the conversation in here about your lack of knowledge for an entire classline no that's not an insult that's just stating what we've been discussing please don't take to as an insult

[languid adder]

Shackles are mostly introduced by Odie so we high players cant "cheese" progression and rewards, but then we have 4 levels that dont have shackles in place. Its a weird situation to be in.
I fully agree with your points.

Also can i ask for a poll in regards to if T8/T9 should drop proofs too, and at what conditions?
I can prepare one, i did, then the bot said no and deleted all my hard work.

[wanton raft]

Knight, the voice of reason.

[somber nymph]

Every time someone pings me I have to unfollow this godforesaken thread again 😆

[languid adder]

Omnus, my friend!

Thanks tho knight for bringing attention to this, i appreciate you a lot for that!
And for a lot of other things.
But thats the newest.

[exotic jasper]

I would gladly vote on that poll in #🍂│late-game-⭐10, but i havent even made it to lvl where shackles activate

[languid adder]

let me give you 2 screenshots that will say all that you have to know

[wanton raft]

I am all for the shackled option existing in a way that's fun, challenging and rewarding for the players that do it.

I just also want a path that feels like ascended players aren't re-earning the AL's they already spent a crazy amount of time getting the in the first place.

[languid adder]

86% stat increase, .49% proof increase.

[exotic jasper]

Yeah, i have seen the discussion and info, but without trying it myself with shackles, its tough to vote with no experience.

||Also, tell me you are german without telling me you are german: 68% 86% ||

[languid adder]

we only say it the right way, we write it wrong like everybody else

[sinful vapor]

This comparison is never useful or relevant. It makes perfect sense that someone getting to use 100s of ALs at low anguish would have reduced rewards compared to someone with less ALs.

Are you complaining about the difficulty? Because the difficulty does not ever go away, it only increases. Are you complaining about the small rewards increase? Then shackle and get used to the process

Outside of that, if you want to get to your appropriate anguish level faster - talk about that isntead of comparing reward rates

[languid adder]

That is exactly the superficial response i expected.
Calling that "reduced" rewards is just insulting...

No, i dont.

And yes, i already did. Does'nt change that unshackled cap is much too much.

[bold gate]

Coming from a DnD background, I really dislike shackles. Levels are an in-game reward for engaging using my real time. The DnD equivalent is being level drained, which is one of the worst punishments because the DM is saying that they're going to disregard countless hours of the player.

If my DnD character reaches level 20, I prefer level appropriate challenges rather than the DM suddenly dropping me to level 5. At that low level, sure, many things are challenging but it feels artificial.

[wanton raft]

100%

[grave fulcrum]

Okay then as your DM I'll just tell you a wizard cast a spell on you removing any knowledge of gaining any levels past shackled limit now it's part of the plot

[grave fulcrum]

Hey I just noticed that you can't actually look at anguish 2.0 leaderboard stuff because there like 100 people with 400 lvls of old anguish that haven't swapped is there any way we can make a separate leaderboard for 2.0 so that 1.0 can still flex their lvl but 2.0 can be viewed

[spiral goblet]

Or just get rid of 1.0 haha

[grave fulcrum]

Nah allow the flex make it a legacy leaderboard

I feel like some people aren't even active on the game anymore on that leaderboard

[spiral goblet]

Allow the artificial flex? Since it doesn't have everyone anymore. I mean I guess, but doesn't hold much weight

[grave fulcrum]

I mean anguish 400 holds decent weight considering how many dungeons towers and world farm it would take

[spiral goblet]

You lost me at 1.0 world farm lols

[tacit ridge]

Anguish 1.0 needs to be gone. Dungeoning there is just way more profitable than in 2.0, it’s just going to further inequalities

[plush nimbus]

I agree it could be fine to remove ang1, but dungoens is not really what make people skyrocketing in ang1 currently tbh.

[harsh geyser]

Using the DnD analogy -- everything after 20 is epic levels. They're supposed to take a bajillion years if you ever even get +1, and no content expect epic levels. I wish we had that system, and for people to get to ascension 10 and be like "damn that was a huge multi-year grind".

I'm sure everyone wants NF to continue generating 11*, 12*, 13*, etc. content. The reality is that they cannot, because the playerbase is too small to justify the investment and NF is too small to devote tons of time to the tiny tip of endgame players. So instead they created a system that scales and has mutators, and now people can continue to level up with matching challenging content.

I'm pretty sure the only hiccup from y'alls POV is that it's weird to jump into the middle of a system. You'd rather be fast-forwarded to ~ang20. In the long run, the amount of time it takes to re-level ang paths is pretty miniscule -- certainly more miniscule than all the doomsaying is making it out to be imo. 🤷‍♂️

I'm a month in and ang11 on all paths. I'll be back up to matching my ascension level probably next month or the one thereafter. And then I intend to keep playing for a few years at least. 😅

[plush nimbus]

Can't agree more with you Fuximus.
If it was way too long to reach same rewards as you could get from ang1 I could understand a bit more the complains, but the new system is totally different.

• Despair : it had something that didn't exist before, so no point in being upset IMHO about this one
• Raids : again, it adds new rewards
• tower : It adds new rewards with proof while keeping the nice rewards we already had before, and just like dungeons, it doesn't take year before seing shards%+proof drop being on par with what anguish 1 had to offer (while maybe clearing a bit some powercreep issues)
• dungeons : it's not big of a deal to join the same rewards/dungeons we had before, as ang50 dungeons in ang 1 is ang20ish in ang2.0
  And about complain telling you should not have to re grind and so on : it's all good, as indeed, contrary to someone who has low AL, when he will have to grind for anguish lvl he will also have to grind for AL much more quickly than already high AL people. So the system already offer benefit to high AL people, and doesn't disrespect at all previous grind IMHO.

(Not saying there is nothing to improve in this new system, but saying high AL doesn't benefit from anything is just not realistic tbh. The time I ll spend to regain ascension level so I can reach some more guild lvl on contents I love is way longer than the time I would need to just increase the guild level)

[wanton raft]

I hope we can find a version that's fun for you and also fun for us.

[plush nimbus]

I think we can find a fun and fair version. What you offered some time ago, is just more skip for the already ascended players.
You want some respect for the ascensions level, fair, I also want some respect for the grind 💜😋

[wanton raft]

I dont really want the skip ahead options either. My primary ask was a minimal 1% increase to proof rates just so increasing difficulty increased rewards.

I also suggested seperate guilds.

As someone who grinded 150 AL's, respecting the grind is exactly what I want.

[plush nimbus]

You mean a 1% increase for proof only if you have the AL for it ? (Just asking because I maybe missunderstood something)
Just in case,.and not directed toyou Omnus : not really fan of seing clown and other kind of emoji reaction like it. It's fine to disagree, not need to add this in an already hard thead 😅

[wanton raft]

As I raise Difficulty I get 0.1% increase to proof rates. I dont think thats reasonable. I am just asking for something that makes raising the difficulty continue raising rewards. Because farming at AL4 isn't fun or inteteresting.

I know other people have suggested skipping mechanics and i would take that over what we have but i would much prefer to still do the grind.

[plush nimbus]

I tend to agree with Fux about it, of adding schackles rather than the opposite. And tbh, even if it needs some tiny change here and there, schackles are not that painful and - IMHO - it's kind of fun, especially when you reach the point where going schack offer more rewards than unschack regarding proof, as it's quite amazing trying to find builds, increasing gear and so on.
May I ask you the path you re grinding for ? Tower I guess mainly ? I ve seen many people going schack on 6-7-8+ and it seemed fun and quite rewarding, and not so long to lvl up IMHO

[wanton raft]

I am not interested in playing my character with a year and half of work undone and then spend months getting it back.

I am honestly not playing the current version anymore. Its just not enjoyable. But Odie seems to genuinely want to find a better balance so thats why I am still around.

(not speaking for Odie, just my impression)

[plush nimbus]

My view : at first when I listened to people talking about guilg lvl grind and so on, I was also quite afraid, but this changed quite quickly after I just started to play as I use to play. Even on path not praized for good rewards regarding proof/hour (mel), it doesn't feel as painful as I thought after listening to other people speaking about it just at the start (or before) anguish 2.0 released
And if talking specificaly about tower, what some people shared about the tower needed to up lvl didn't feel much of a pain tbh, especially on a content you also get other nice rewards you keep (mats from floor, shards). So I have to say I totally respect people opinion about it, I just don't fully get the point and why it causes this feeling of being disrespected about AL.
Again, people with lower AL will need to slow down their guilg lvl up to spend time on grinding AL much sooner.

[wanton raft]

Its definitely something some people enjoy and I fully support finding a way to do both things. But i would rather keep playing Orna. And I am far from the only person who is frustrated with Anguish 2.0.

Hopefully there is a good solution and I believe NF will try thier best.

[bronze plinth]

Does stormrunner have something to say ?

Personally i still feel like the grind is bit too slow even tho im not even shackled in agony path anymore. But for examble the despair and melancholy paths feel very slow. Despair is semi fast in early levels, but locking max proofs at 1-3 becomes super slow at some point.

Melancholy does scale with levels, but my issue with it is the lack of mobs for proofs.

Agony is decently fast to lvl up and costs alot ( if someone is not piled with t8 jorms and moondrops.)
But my problem with that is mostly the fact that raids become slower each lvl but they only give luck and proofs in trade basicly. You do have like 20+% chance for anguish gear. But still like 0.04% increased quality on raiding drops?

Other paths do give proofs,luck and quality aswell but they also give other "rewards" like gold, orn, shards and exp boosts.

I dont know but agony seems very lacking in the long run.

[plush nimbus]

One way I could think about to help a bit and maybe offer some in between so everyone could enjoy about what you said is removing the need to use proofs to lvl up guild : it remains the same time "cost" as it depends on the proof you earn, but you keep also those proofs to buy what you want to

[bronze plinth]

This would make the grind much less painfull!

[next flame]

Honestly no, I’m just laughing at the ridiculousness of it all. Anguish wasn’t meant to be easy yet people ARE STILL crying about it being too hard.

[short osprey]

I've suggested it in the past (And it's basically along the same line of what your saying with the "minimal 1% increase to proof rates") but what I feel would help majorly is capping the reduction % on proofs/AL distance from shackles, as currently it gets up to roughly ~95% iirc? But capping that to 50%/60%/75% even would be a great help!

[plush nimbus]

There are some things that may need some changes, it goes in both way, some things need nerfs, some things need help. This thread is about trying to find what could be the best for the game. There are people who maybe want too much, and people who maybe want too much pain, in the end Odie will probably step by step improve with in between decisions with what feels better for the game in his opinion. Seems fair

[bronze plinth]

Imo its not about anguish being hard. For me its the fact i have to be on the easy levels a bit too long

[plush nimbus]

When you add schackles, in my case it's not that easy. And if so, it just allow to reach a bit quicker the level where challenge is.

[hushed crow]

Man jorm nerf is yucky, poor T8-T9s smh, I'd rather have seen a nerf in the proofs then the cost of the raids personally 🥴

3x value is kinda yucky when it takes a T8-T9 hours or days to kill a raid, I'd rather the T10s not ruin the content for the others that aren't there personally lmao

[bronze plinth]

I had shackless on and i still have i did not feel like the game was hard. Currently i have less als than i could have with shackles on

[bronze plinth]

That literally solved the issue.

[plush nimbus]

I agree I m not a fan of what happened, but Odie told it's maybe just a first step : he s just back from holidays, he will maybe need some time to figure a better thing to do.
For now I agree with your feelings, the choice currently made is not fun for people who didn't go and don t plan to go for the cheese, while it doesn't clearly cut the cheese for people who really want to go for it.
Let's hope for something better 🙂💪🏻👍🏻

[next flame]

“Oh now I have to do 2 more super easy inconsequential raids to get the proper amount, oh no”

Please, it did nothing to the actual problem

[short osprey]

Agreed, shackles don't make it more difficult, all they do is slow you down imo, the issue is they slow you down to such an extreme early on that for alot of people there is no point to play at levels 5/6/7/8 since it's just faster to play at level 4 with no shackles

[bronze plinth]

With 3 proof cost i would prefer going to fey for gear that matters actually. Its not like the fey is duper hard to beat.

[plush nimbus]

I can agree with it. That's part of the tiny change that may help, and if someone fine a fair solution it could help ang2.0

[hushed crow]

For T10s it didn't lmao, just made T8-T9s life more miserable cause they can't kill a boss within seconds or minutes 🥴

[bronze plinth]

I mean it kinda does if it makes ppl go to fey instead.

[next flame]

The costs of scrolls wasn’t the problem, it was the accessibility of proofs from the easier t8 raids

[hushed crow]

Fey has more stats and hp lmao, T8 would still be more proofs and worth it

[plush nimbus]

Lower proof for ang1-4, with lower cost for guild lvl up, and a better increase in drop rate for lvl 5, so it tend to invite people going for schack ?
(Like ang 1 to 4 is 2% to 8%, and you unlock around 20% with ang5 ?
I know it's far from perfect, it's just to write the idea, but as long as you reduce guild lvl up cost on early lvl so it match what is currently available + find correct fair numbers it may help ?)

[bronze plinth]

Fey has twice the stats. So its like few extra tf and the raid is done & gives same amount of proofs and chance to get anguished gear of your tier. i dont see why 3 proof cost jorm would be more efficient anymore.

Sure its faster to kill but now it costs 3x and does only offer proofs for t10.

[hushed crow]

When proofs is all that matters T8 jorm wins by a landslide, plus most people tackling anguish raids, already have the anguish gear lmao

This decision only hurts the T8-T9 parties, and slows down T8 jorm abuse slighty overall T8 jorm will still be abused and the lower tiers suffer because of our decisions

[plush nimbus]

(that's the point, it is still easy, it still can offer tons of proof - we re talking about 3.5k around lvl 35 agony/hour, that's same amount of cort and so on but I m not gonna share details again. Cost up to 3 coins doesn't change much the cheese for someone aiming for it, it just tend to make it easier for some type of players and that's about it)

[broken pike]

No one is crying that it's hard. Making a player re grind for something they already grinded for, for years doesn't equate to something being hard. It's about not respecting time investment of the player base.

[bronze plinth]

Well i do belive that the cost in proofs does affect decicions of picking fey instead. Just bc its worth it. And for me its not worth crafting t8 scrolls with the cost of t10 scroll basicly.

[plush nimbus]

That's what I said. For you it's not worth it. For the people we will see soon with 300/400 AL it is probably seen as worth it ^^
For the game ? Not sure !

[hushed crow]

4mil health scales way less than 12 mil health lmao

And mostly only reason to do jorm at this point is for the proofs it provides at T8 lmao way outscales the gear T10 offers especially when most of us have it

[bronze plinth]

Lol for examble i dont have full ornate gerds with enchants yet

[plush nimbus]

I suggest we move the agony topic into the agony thread to maybe keep focus on what Omnus said and way to help this while not having a skip grind mechanic that would be unfair.
Best solution is still removing your AL but I doubt you re all ok with it, so we have some work !

[full peak]

I hope you oppose with this to Knights in ORN. As I agree with you and Knight appearing out of nowhere proposing something, that half of this channel is already about... (and second half about nerfing raids).

[echo haven]

Why don’t you just make raid proofs drop only from the same tier the players are in, as it’s with every other proof. Makes sense and no more easy exploitation. Or at least significantly lower the drop rate for lower tiers event items that summons a certain tier.

[tacit ridge]

Because you can’t choose the tier of raids you’re summoning, while you can choose to run t10 dungeons, target t10 world spawns, etc. Changing that would make half the scrolls useless

[wanton raft]

One of my favorite parts of Anguish 2.0 is the random tier 8 and 9 raids I am forced to summon actually feel rewarding because i want to keep my OT clear.

[echo haven]

Fair enough, then exclude the regular summon scrolls. Only do it with event stuff that summons a certain lower tier.

[wanton raft]

If NF adds a feature where you can choose to only summon the tier 10 raids, the i am totally good with it just being equal tier

[languid adder]

The mistake on this assumption is, cause youre on anguish 11 in all paths, much people are too.

Its a combination of the grind beeing extremely slow if you dont breathe this game (and even if you doo it feels artificially slow), and getting taken away something you earned with hard work, because designed with high endgame players in mind was more complicated then designing against them. There is no healthy justification for designing an endgame system that devaluates the most tedious part of your progression , for no compensation whatsoever - and thats exactly the problem, no that you give up something you invested a lot of heart into, but that it gets taken away from you with no logical return, and then slapped on top is unshackled, which at a certain AL difference that is reached very early, is just an illusion of choice at best.

[harsh geyser]

Choose to run T10 dungeons where 15 of 25 floors don't give proofs? 😅
World spawns can be targeted for sure, tower/monument spawns can kinda be targeted (though there's still plenty of T8/T9 enemies there).

Not really sure I understand this argument against reducing the proof rate of undertiered content, especially when all other paths get zero whole proofs for killing undertiered enemies.

The suggestion from the start has been to reduce the undertiered rewards (because they're easier fights) and then possibly raise all rates overall. The primary goal is to tilt rewards toward on-tier content. Separately agony rewards too much per-player-time including scroll farming.

[languid adder]

This does not factor in the added grind of anguish gear, neither does it factor in the added time of clearning the content that happens after some point and will only get more noticable, which in both cases means less of what i already get, adding something that doesnt compensate for it in the first place.

And the fact i can just ascend a few levels on classes i dont use to basically cheese the AL requirement for next to no cost compared to ascending my main class, does not mean that my AL gets respected, that is like me working overtime for 50 hours a month and my boss telling me "oh, i wont really pay you, but also, heres a pack of cookies, and a good job!"

[harsh geyser]

To briefly comment on "I've put so much time in", I'm playing at a pretty casual pace. I've probably spent more time in this anguish thread than, y'know, playing anguish. Y'all could be doing the same thing and it'd be behind you already. 🤷‍♂️ Less hand-wringing, more game playing.

But overall, I don't get it.

I've heard this argument from several people many times, but it never made sense to me. My ALs aren't gone in any sense. I can stop playing Anguish, or play Anguish unshackled, and there's my ALs all shiny and chrome. I can take my ALs into kingdom wars no problem, or territory, or arisen waygates or whatever.

While in this specific guild content, they're at most temporarily delayed while pathing up but eventually they come back into focus and get used just fine. While I only have to care about proofs and occasionally an anguished weapon drop, other new players are caring about those things and having to grind for their ascension requirements (which I've already done).

[languid adder]

This would make the issue much less meaningful, and would, if adjusted correctly, make a lot of people stop sticking to 4, because their reduction is just much too high until some point in the game.

[next flame]

Finally someone with sense

[harsh geyser]

I think a lot of it is a mentality of "anguish is mandatory content" v. "anguish is optional/opt-in content". I see it as the latter; just like I don't really participate in Traveler's Guild or BoF Guild, I would expect many players to not particularly care about the Circle of Anguish.

[languid adder]

So i should just ignore the problem the content presents me, eat it up, accept that there wont be any change to it, and just ignore anguish as whole, sit back with all the other people who are frustrated at the current iteration of shackles and pretend the issue doesnt exist, cause the reason to is basically "i dont see it, so it doesnt exist".

The fact that this delay is going exponentially (the longer you played the longer you get punished), the reward reduction cap, the deincentivise to progression because of it... there is many reasons why i wont ignore it, why the optional endgame content doesnt respect my endgame progression in a reasonable matter.

[full peak]

I'm playing at a pretty casual pace
That is one hardcore causal pace taking into account your guilds (apart from agony) are one of highest in game. And for combo (time-wise) I would argue they are highest rn. 😅

But you, even for me, who has 1-9-12-3 it is ok speed.

(wante to ping @harsh geyser here, too late 😄 )

[sturdy stump]

I agree with fux. I think ang 1.0 was just so rewarding that it made the content feel mandatory, even tho ang 2.0 changes this and puts more emphases on challenging players. In order to challenge players, you kind of need shackles. Otherwise you dont have a set difficulty level for each anguish level. But you can also not reward players based on the number of ALs they give up, because that would be unfair vs lower AL players that do the same content for less rewards. The only solution I see atm is that leveling up could be made faster so you reach your shackle cap al faster, but that may take away the long term progression feel of ang 2.0. This is not really an easy problem to solve imo. And even if higher al players get to the ang lvl where the shackle is at their AL, chances are the content is so hard at that point that you might want to lower your ang level anyway, at least I cant imagine myself clearing towers at ang25-30

[languid adder]

Giving people who played loads more then others a compensation foe their sacrifice would be unfair to those who didnt invest that time, why exactly?

Leveling up faster is probably the best choice - not my favorite one, but i agree it would solve the issue. Because i want to reach the point in progression designed for me, not in 2026 with playing 2-3 hours a day, thats just weird and unfun.

I dont mind rewards, didnt care about that in anguish 1 either. I had it running on 1 forever cause i wanted Guild EXP, i didnt engage much with it because of many many reasons.
I can only compare anguish 2.0 of the fun and fairness the rest of the game presents, and to the anguish 2.0 that got teased to me in the reddit post from odie directly.

[tacit ridge]

I suggested just that a bit above, lower proof rates for t8 and 9, but make all t8 and 9 content drop it to bring all paths on par. I disagree with removing them from raids because I think they should be applied everywhere

[full peak]

not in 2026 with playing 2-3 hours a day
that's bit of exaggeration, for AL100 you need ang21, which is 2500-3000 dungeons runs. If you play that much time a day, I would take you do like 40 dungeons a day at least (that is not even 2 hours, let be honest), you would be on your AL in 2,5 months. 🙃

[sturdy stump]

Giving people who played loads more then others a compensation foe their sacrifice would be unfair to those who didnt invest that time, why exactly?

its just a rich get richer thing imo. The same players that benefitted from broken refineries and ang 1.0 should also get an advantage in ang 2.0? Imo ang 2.0 should level the playing field. The idea of e.g. an al100 player receiving more rewards shackled vs an al10 player in the same content, just feels wrong to me.

[languid adder]

that is a fifth of all my dungeon runs combined, and i play since april 2025 - adding that i did not much else between T5 and T10 then dungeons. And, that back then, there was no towers, guilds other meaningful content i can also do in those 2-3 hours. So i think 2026 is generous.
40 Dungeons a day for a casual player is extreme.

[languid adder]

i dont think more rewards is the solution.
Compensation still is a great idea.
Getting high AL players to the point they belong faster makes re-grinding your progress less frustrating, so its a better solution.
I dont think everybody abused refineries, and i dont think every player should be slapped cause of them.

What also would solve it would reduce the unshackled cap to 75% or less.

[full peak]

||(you mean april 2020 right?)||

You said 2-3 hours a day. I'm not averaging 20 dungeons a day. But as I said, I'm not even playing every day. So yea...for me it is second half of 2026.

But if I do 2-3 hours of day...welp, as I said, few months.

(and between T5 and T10 you could probably accumulate like 2k dungeons top if you took it slow 🫣 ...also dungeons back then was WAY SLOWER and WAY WORSE accessible than today...even with shackles on)

[languid adder]

yes april 2020 sorry^^"

2-3 hours mostly flow into walking around with my phone strapped to my arm, going for monaspects, doing amities and conq guild
I do an average of 3-10 dungeons a day

[grave fulcrum]

40 dungeons in 2 hrs is doable with 30 mins to spare I might add. 1 wv holds 20+ dungeons you can run all of them non boss non hard on repeat every hr if you wanted (making it closer to 200 a day for any player who has 5 hrs of time through out the day to run 20 dungeons

[languid adder]

ignores what i said.
Yes of course its possible but i dont want to spend all my orna time on a single piece of content, especially one that doesnt do much for me outside of anguish.

[grave fulcrum]

That's 5 hrs during that with another 5 hrs to grind other content I'm not seeing how you'd be locked into just that. You can play 30 mins at a time or for 2 hrs straight and fill gaps with raids world farm or a tower you feel like running. And as long as your job doesn't require you to hyper focus on the job (tons of jobs don't) you can play through out your work day

I'd like Odie to weigh in on the average players playtime per day and per week that would give better perspective for what is and isn't possible for a player

[full peak]

You know that sensible people usually find a job that they like to do and somehow filling them? Which means they usually don't play games during them. 🤔 (well usually those ppl don't play videogames at all, that is also truth )

[grave fulcrum]

I love my job and I play orna more than the average player.

[raven bane]

If you find a job you can play orna you never have to work a day in your life

[left mauve]

wait, Orna aint a job ?

[grave fulcrum]

This is a lie I work a lot my job just doesn't demand 110% focus

[hushed crow]

Look anguish should be hard and non profitable if it's meant to be a challenge, like just enough profit to barely scratch through the tiers, I understand that much

But I just don't want Rash decisions to hurt the new playerbase because we found an exploit, rather than nerfing them, I'd much rather find solutions to nerf just the endgame, that's just me looking out for the health of the game jorm proofs should've just been lowered rather than increase the price to summon them, cause that doesn't change anything for us grinders, 3/3 is nothing tbh when we get the same amount of proofs for less effort than 90% of bosses still

[hushed crow]

Uber drivers, doordash drivers, and anyone who travels ( flight attendants ) are heavily looking over their shoulder at you rn lmao

[grave fulcrum]

It wasn't an exploit the prices needed changed regardless as stated by Odie because transmutation of runes. I agree there are better ways to deal with anguish balancing and that it hasn't been achieved but it was never an exploit just a balance issue

Plus any t8 who grinds the scroll mats out is likely pushing outa t8 by the time they make 100 scrolls

[hushed crow]

T8 menja gives about 11 runes
T5 kingdom raids you get 5-7 on 20%

That's 5-7 T8 jorms for them probably within hours or days of raiding depending on class and gear

Now it's 2 jorms at most, which is a huge nerf to the T8-T9 community, especially since they take much longer to raid, not everyone is in endgame, much rather have seen less proofs than more cost on the raid itself

[grave fulcrum]

If you're getting 5-7 per kill at 20% that's crazy because that's what Im getting 100%ing the raid

[grave fulcrum]

Also you gotta remember time to kill there's plenty of inactive kingdoms or low activity kingdoms. And killing t8 menja would take forever for a t8 regardless of class depending on gear raiding a ton at t8 is the easiest way to accidently over level and not have orns or anything meaningful then your t9 and still have scrolls to kill but improper class and likely not enough to spec. And again it doesn't take a ton of exp to get through t8 so between dungeons (for scrolls) exp gained from killing scrolls and then killing t8 jorm your looking at toeing the line of 200

For 4 kills averaging 6 but it's not enough info to say definitively

I could try to test it with a t8 alt who's lvl 176
But I know it doesn't have the gear or the orns sooo that's gonna take a ton of time. And I'll just use an alt t8 scrolls already crafted as a way to say "1 of each rune for scroll"

[hushed crow]

True, but overall I'm just saying no T8/T9 is going to think practically here, they want cool exotic gear, T8 jorm isn't too bad to raid either, alongside has some pretty cool gear to offer

It's unfortunate they get nerfed on how many T8 jorm they can summon, and some people use those raids to level regardless of the fact it will over level them, it may be faster for them that way

All I'm saying is the current nerf only effects the T8/T9 players, nothing has really changed for T10/T11 tackling anguish

[steep jetty]

afaik you dont need to do 100% to get the maximum rune rolls on the kdom raids

[grave fulcrum]

It's slowed us down by 300%

[tacit ridge]

Any T8 that’s raiding Jorm is going to hit T9 quickly and then just see the gear get out scaled. People are making this more of an issue than it actually is, I’d wager most t8 players don’t even bother with raids

[hushed crow]

No it didn't lmao, slowed us down slightly for those of us that have 3k scrolls and can one shot raids, we get some less raids sure but the proofs are the same, and so T8 jorm is still the most valuable and easiest raid proof to farm

[tacit ridge]

1/3 of the raids means 1/3 of the proofs over the event. It isn’t rocket science

[grave fulcrum]

2 kg raids and 1 world raid averaged out to be 15-20 scrolls before and now it's closer to 5-7 per same metric. Also t8/9 also aren't in the thread talking about balance they're still tutorial figuring out what they Wana play and trying new things very few people under t10 should be involved in balancing and those are people like expless for the lower level balance that can effect higher lvl stuff. I'm completely okay with locking t10s out of t8 jorm indefinitely t10+ has no reason to farm t8.

[grave fulcrum]

So you're still farming 15-20 scrolls per 2 kg raids and 1 world raid? Interesting can you tell me how your getting more than 20 runes for kg and more than 25 per wrb

Slowing you down doesn't mean time based because you're still killing raids the same speed every single time. But rather how many kills it takes to make say 100 scrolls

[hushed crow]

It's less scrolls sure, but more value of proofs over almost any event raid in game, T8 jorm HP doesn't scale near as much as most raids would

Kingdom raids pop off fast, you can switch agony to kill the other raids for runes, then bump it max to T8 jorm farming

This barely effects our growth unless you're doing raids within 5 seconds and constantly cycling with the 1/1 rates

But like I said, I'm only concerned mainly for the lower tier playerbase, the gear doesn't get outscaled hard in T8 for some classes and it's just sad our actions hurt them 5x more than it hurts us lowkey

[left mauve]

👀

[grave fulcrum]

Hurt them 3x more not 5x

[hushed crow]

Time it takes to kill raids, time it takes to acquire scrolls, it hurts them much more than 3x lmao for us it's just 3x but we can one shot raids, they however take hours or days doing so

[grave fulcrum]

Again Odie said it needed changed regardless of the anguish stuff transmutation of runes made it too easy to grind those scrolls for anyone

[hushed crow]

But I get it, not many care about the lower tier players and that's fine, just sucks it came to that conclusion, idc if they locked T10-T11 from doing lower tier raids, but the cost should've stayed the same for T9 and lower

[grave fulcrum]

Their time to kill didn't change tho they still take same amount of time to kill it's only a cost change not a stat change for kg raids wrb and jorm. So it hurt them the same amount as it did t10s

[full peak]

Well, I'm saying it everytime.

Increasing cost = hurt small fishes.

Decreasing rewards by % = hurt whales.

(as smoll guys usually don't have resources time to farm non-essential things-which low tier scrolls are)

[plush nimbus]

It's obvious there's still an issue with the "fix" Odie made : it is an issue for lower players who don't abuse/cheese, while it's just a joke for people ready to keep going into the cheese. IIRC @sturdy stump shared numbers everyone can easely check. And I don't want to see - again - people joining back this thread in a few days/weeks to say "oh sorry sorry yes you were indeed right I just spammed like crazy and now I will share the solution you shared a week (fr : month) ago as it feels indeed good now that I had time to cheese like crazy".
And yes, this is exactly what happened. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[hushed crow]

I spent about 2 years in T9 I had the resources lmao and T8 jorms has good gear for T8/T9 but I'm also a filthy summoner main

Much rather have hurt the whales than the fishes lmao

[full peak]

That resource/time was meant to T10/T11 playerbase buying scrolls and what they will prioritize ofc.

[hushed crow]

Which they are still going to prioritize, and the rich get richer, the poor get poorer lmao

[sturdy stump]

it wasnt me who shared those numbers, not sure who did. But yeah you predicted the T8 jorm spam pretty well, and I agree with everything that has been said here in rewards to increasing scroll cost vs decreasing rewards. This increased scroll cost isnt really going to stop endgame players I think, and it doesnt actually solve the core issue, since the same thing could just happen again with another event in the future

[plush nimbus]

(really sorry I wasn't sure it was you or someone else who shared the potentiel currencies you can farm/time to buy scrolls. But thanks you to confirm)

[hushed crow]

Moon drops are next

[broken pike]

So where's all the players with stupid high agony levels? Still wondering. There's 3 in the top 100 with lvl 30+ and then you have abyss. Are these HoA players that are getting referred to at this point?

Grinders will always grind. Doesn't matter the price of scrolls. Ppl farm thousands of scrolls that have high costs as well. Thank alts

[normal citrus]

5/5 for scrolls is always going to be more painful (even though basically everyone in those higher ang ranges would still buy 3/3s, but now there's a lot less incentive

[broken pike]

Scroll price is irrelevant for the ppl grinding, seriously lol. Like I said, even expensive scrolls get farmed in the thousands by some players. Make agony shop prices higher than others. Problem solved for those concerned about speed ALs or whatever their concern is in regards to "rich get richer"

I don't think a heart of change should cost 10k despair or 10k torment. 10k agony proofs, sure.

[plush nimbus]

(The top 100 where at least 37 players are inactive/alts/not in ang2.0. I've seen, in community, active players sharing this issue to try to go straight for it. It's like other issues we had in the past, at first it's a few players, then it increase when some results are shared, then the small issue become a bigger one. That's what several players would like to avoid)
And yes I agree with some ideas you shared here

[broken pike]

Then it's a catch up mechanic for lower players tbh. Most of the top are high AL. Would allow lower AL players to catch up quicker, no? Banging out raids just as fast as top players. They can choose to spend their proofs on catching up in AL or leveling the guild 🤷‍♂️

[upbeat gorge]

Has anyone brought up the fact that you get Anguish proofs in other paths exclusively from enemies of your tier, but it's not that way for Agony for some reason?

[normal citrus]

That's a bit less of a catch-up mechanic and moreso a bullet bill

[plush nimbus]

It's your opinion, I respect it. On my side, I don't think it's healthy for the game, and that's mainly why I think it should be tuned down. I absolutely don't mind the game offering catch up mechanics when it's tied to balanced contents. Here, IMHO, it just add powercreep issues, and in the end I don't think it's great for the game, for the players who deceide to not go for it, and also for the players who deceide to go for it.

[upbeat gorge]

Easiest solution is to make Agony proofs drop from raids of your tier. Just like the other Paths. I dont get melancholy proofs from t8 enemies. I dont get despair proofs from t8 enemies. Why do lower tier raids drop Agony proofs?

^ Powercreep has always been in this game, long before Ang 2.0. However, this power creep has only been there for the dedicated players that have spent tens of hours at least grinding out amities, 195+ event gear, etc. to min/max their builds.

[trim breach]

You don't get to control the tier of a summoned raid using normal summoning scrolls, it would feel bad to get nothing for the lower tier summoned raids

[normal citrus]

nerf thronemakers in advance, and everyone's chilling, just sucks how this turned out

[sonic summit]

You also don't have the choice to do 15 (mostly) useless floors in dungeons + some fights without T10 in towers

[trim breach]

Sure, but scrolls are notably harder to come by than dungeons

[broken pike]

Idc how it swings either way tbh as ang 2.0 and the joke of ss3 still dominating the pvp world even more so than before has pushed me away from orna big time. I don't really see it increasing power creep since shackled anguished content takes way longer the higher you go no matter your AL. Even once someone is unshackled, the HP scaling is a massive slow down. AL has become pretty irrelevant in the pvp world where AL is supposed to count if that's where ppl are concerned about it. But yeah, you can't control the raids spawned like mentioned so taking away the proofs from players on lower tier raids would be silly. Agony really is a speedboost for those lower AL players that get matlocked. Or spend the proofs on leveling. Eventually ppl will be running out of scrolls. We're seeing ppl level fast because they stock piled scrolls for a year + in anticipation of ang 2.0. Adjust scroll cost making as needed, but like I said, grinders will still grind and alt their way to mass amounts if they want it

[plush nimbus]

It can receive some change. But if not, there are still other solutions :

• reduced proof from lower tier
• adding a cap of proof you can get from lower tier
  "Trash" raids were seen as not really fun before, adding some proof to it is already an improvement. But if you keep as it is, it remains a big issue for balance between contents.
  About the scroll farming : if agony path is much more rewarding, it also tend to let players with choice like : do I go for the most efficient - debatable for some - ways to farm them or do I accept to keep playing as I would like to - switch between content, go for the content you really love the most and so on.
  Take fishing for exemple. It has been stated long ago it was the less fun content, and just a few people went for it. Rewards went ⬆️⬆️⬆️ and suddently it is played like crazy. Does it mean fishing is funnier than it used to ? No. So there are also some things to take into account : efficiency is part of the factor, and it tend to also create FOMO and burn out.
  More balance between contents = you don't have to make the choice between fun and efficiency.
  Yesterday, we had some great fun running dungeons with Fux, but in some part of our mind, it felt a bit weird thinking it's 15 times less efficient than what we could do just going for agony spam.

[tacit ridge]

A cap is completely against the idea behind Ang 2.0 being a long term system. If you get to a point where you’re capped, progress disappears for that specific content. Why summon a Ang 40 t8 raid if Ang 15 already caps it for example? It would still feel bad to be forced to fight a much stronger raid because you decided to use normal scrolls but get not added benefit for it

[trim breach]

We understand a lot of players find the most fun in efficiency, for sure. It shouldn't limit our ability to target stuff that is out of whack with everything else, of course.

And yeah, I would say there's definitely room to look into how T8 raids interface with the economy currently. We needed to adjust this event anyway, so I'd call it one piece of the puzzle and not the solve to Agony period

[raven bane]

Imo capping the crafting of low tier scrolls per event, similar to rolls in monument guild, is a decent idea. A cap in the 200-500 range would make it a nice boost for players who want to use the event in that way and a t8-9 player killing that many raids is probably not a t8 or 9 anymore. I think t8 raids from normal summoning scrolls is not really an issue anymore than something like final horseman.

[plush nimbus]

Like this idea, but If so, a cap of killing may be better I think

[nimble dawn]

Thanks Odie!

[raven bane]

I understand the alting issue component but really don't think it should drive ingame decisions. I think a cap on purchasing would be a lot more evident than a cap on killing. The game needs to have clarity for people who may not be in the discord. I still see situations where people fish for hours not knowing there is a fishing cap until they come to discord

[pearl mango]

Cap on purchase will mean if i have sht rng like many i know did doing hundreds of raids without what they want would just get fkd until next time event is around which i see not fair at all to anyone

[raven bane]

To clarify, I don't think there should be a t10 cap.

[pearl mango]

Even lower tier raids have way more uses than just agony proofs with conq guild being around for a long time now lower tier gear from any lower tier raids have a use now so even then its not fair

[raven bane]

Yeah that's fair, but jorm drops all the drops that are accessible through the other raids. If you fight them anguished you get better odds at ornate gear for a high end player.

[pearl mango]

Limiting how much someone can progress or forcibly slowing them down cuz their progressing faster than most is not healthy nor good for the game

[normal citrus]

funny how you have to explicitly state that

[somber nymph]

That's because it's wrong, imo

If something is able to be progressed abnormally fast, it's worth looking at why and determining if it's an issue.

[raven bane]

Who's progress are we talking about? For t10, I think t8 raids (and t10 raids) are fairly effective pushers of progress even with the nerf and t8 would still be nice with a cap. Id rather event specific changes like that are better overall than nerfing agony as a whole. A 'fresh' player will be way more hurt by having 50% of all raids less than not being to abuse a particular event as much as was possible previously.

[pearl mango]

I was responding to the suggestion of limiting how much event scrolls someone can craft whether lower tier or not

[raven bane]

I also think a t8 who kills hundreds of jorms, if they somehow had that much speed at their level, is probably a t10 at that point .

[somber nymph]

I think it would be acceptable to limit the quantity of a lower tier raid as long as all of that raid's drops are accessible from other, unlimited, sources.

[pearl mango]

Which barely exist if it even exist at all?

[raven bane]

All of t8 jorms drop from other rag raids I think

[somber nymph]

Do you know what's on T8 Jorm's drop table?

It's duplicates of all items from Ragnarok lower than T10

[normal citrus]

he plays the game (so yes

[pearl mango]

Where would i get lower tier raid drops from other than the raids themselves i dont understand

Using only jorms as a reference is looking at 1% of the raids

[raven bane]

I am specifically arguing for a cap on jorm scrolls

[somber nymph]

No, it's looking at 50% of raids. The only other lower tier uniquely craftable super raid is Rift Judgement unless I'm forgetting something.

[pearl mango]

Crimson scrolls have all lower tier raids

[somber nymph]

Uniquely craftable

T6 and T9 crimsons come from the same scrolls. You do not choose to craft the T6 version for cheaper.

[raven bane]

I don't really think crimson is a problem since the recipes cost a summon scroll

[somber nymph]

If a cap were put in place, the only two scrolls I would recommend capping would be T8 Jorm and T8 Rift Judgement

[pearl mango]

Also now that t8 jorms are nerfed to be almost the same price as t10 ones why do we need a cap on crafting the t8 jorms themselves

[raven bane]

Rift judgment is kinda bitch to farm in anguish anyway as someone who's done it

[pearl mango]

By crafting t8jorms currently with the price change you sacrifice all the anguished rewards from the t10 ones for slightly more proofs of agony due to crafting more raids which seems like a fair trade to me
I dont think adding a cap is necessary nor needed

[trail radish]

Info: Arisen Rift Judgement also drops all the same equips as Rift Judgement 👍

[raven bane]

Suggest add some ward scaling to anguish gear so the fey gear is worth farming

It doesn't have to be ward just some defensive stats, I really see no reason to farm t10 anguished for warrior gear at least

[hushed crow]

There's some point to that I mean ang 10 and up I'm getting one tapped by more than I'd like to admit with my 250k ward but summoner stats are dookie

Anguish content rather than tank the meta is definitely going all glass cannon, you're gonna die anyway lmao

[snow burrow]

I think its HP is too high to effectively benefit from Rift Judgement, and the crafting difficulty is also quite high.

[grave fulcrum]

Did you know that you have access to more than 24 dungeons a day and with wvs more than 400 per day

[upbeat gorge]

I dont I do maybe 3 dungeons a day if Im lucky

[grave fulcrum]

If you run 1 horde non hard non boss dungeon every hr you have 24 dungeons a day if you go to a wv that has 20+ dungeons you can get more than 400 dungeons done in 1 day

And that's basing it on me having 49als running 20 dungeons in ~ 30 mins

[upbeat gorge]

Im t9 without even 1 concord. Could I add 50 people and ask for way vessel activations on my time? Sure. Im more of a solo player though, and I absolutely dont grind the absolute fk out of this game.

[grave fulcrum]

Oh t9 doesn't have the ability to grind as many I'm speaking specifically about double conc players as dungeons are unbearable before that imo. I'd also say that as a t9 you can't really speak on behalf of balancing because you aren't at a point that how you want to balance things would match what you might want at t10. And at t11 I think @plush nimbus did the math of an average of 30? T10 enemies in a t11 dungeon solo horde and as many as 40 in t11 horde dungeons

[upbeat gorge]

This is me in HoA. I know what's going on in t11. Orna, not as much. Point is, not everyone grinds the hell out of the game, and ive seen this rhetoric many times before.

Dedicated players assuming everyone else runs 20-30 dungeons per day on average. I dont know how true that is for the entire t10+ player base. I see statements like yours on both servers. It just happens to be the case that dedicated players speak out more than casual.

[grave fulcrum]

I'm not assuming that I'm saying that if you wanted to you could grind 400+ dungeons a day obviously not everyone has time to do that but access to dungeons resets every hr on the be rather than raids which take farming uw several hrs to get 100

[full peak]

Jinx saying that, but if you manage to pul 30 dungeons a day on avg, you are in top100 world. I'm way lower and I'm #150. I'm just buffled Jinx with his "it is so easy" isnt there.

[blazing bloom]

Anyone know if we will get the option to return to anguish 1.0?

NGL, feel tricked that it was supposed to be better from a rewards stand point and there are people still on 1.0 doing their thing - grinding crap tons of mats/ALs.

Why there was ever a soft cutoff is beyond me. Just created additional opportunity for fomo.

#takemebackto1.0

[grave fulcrum]

On your next day off get someone to loan you a wv with 20 or so dungeons and every hr go back and run them over for 4 hrs total that's 80 dungeons in the day alone and you only spent 2 hrs actually running the dungeons

[full peak]

No thanks. That sounds boring as hell. I don't force myself to play the game just to get ahead of others.

[upbeat gorge]

Working full time every day kinda mitigates the quantity of dungeons I can do, and the farming I've done in HoA to get to just 24 AL was mind numbing at best.

[grave fulcrum]

It's not just to get ahead of others it's showing that you can run that many or more in a short process. You could go as far as hosting them as hard or boss and every 2 hrs go back to them

[upbeat gorge]

I believe this has been hammered time and time again. Ang50 in 1.0 was never designed to be farmed. I dont know how it was abused in Orna, but in HoA boss world farming at Ang50 was used to gain easily 100m+ orns per hour with almost 0 investment aside from farming gear and beo redline, not to mention farming the proofs at the same time. This is how many hardcore players have several billions of orns, just from world farming.

[grave fulcrum]

That's because hoa is easier than orna and hoa doesn't encourage much other than grinding als dungeons arent* all that fun on hoa due to the only way to run them is non boss (running boss doesn't give proofs for adventures guild) and makes it feel like you're time is better spent doing other things

[blazing bloom]

Regardless of design, the value provided by 1.0 and 2.0 for the investment are way off.

Remember that thing you used to do - took you 5 minutes? Now, its going to take you 24 hours- have fun 👍 😁 😂 😀

[upbeat gorge]

Not all. HoA players can't run 10+ towers in a day, can't run as many dungeons as Orna (as you've showed in your earlier statements). Only benefit HoA has is non-gps and target farming at tier-specific areas.

[blazing bloom]

This can all be fixed by leveling the playing field - cutting everyone over.... or allowing players to jump back until a decision is made.

If data shows that players are fleeing 2.0 for the previous there need to be some changes made to the rewards

[upbeat gorge]

There's just no way Odie is going to do that. He's stated multiple times now that thats not going to happen. Youre late to the conversation by about a month lol

[paper void]

that'll be skewed data imo. Anguish 1.0 rewards were problematically good, so of course players will go over there

[blazing bloom]

Then cut everyone over to 2.0

Eliminate the problem, because I want to go back to it for all the reasons mentioned above after being on 2.0 for over a month

[grave fulcrum]

You can target farm mats via monsters raids and dungeons hoa players can farm 10 towers per day if they put the time into it (5 that are always there and build the other 5.) HOA can target farm in the world has a guild that gives proofs for killing enemies in all tiers has a pet thats op AF for all non beo/beoa classes. Hoa has guarenteed double up and a chaos portal as well as 3 bgs hoa has more mat rolls due to adventures guild and gives t9 access to anguish which makes torment busted for them. Hoa is statistically easier due to scaling on anguish and is seen as the easy mode to orna. In orna I can get screwed with 0 towers insight for 5 miles my dungeons can go from decent to all deep dungeons to 3 bgs and a votg to triple up but often times ist just a crappy mix of useless dungeons. Orna has harder scaling in anguish afaik no access to anguish pre t10 and has less target farm ability. Less mat rolls per day but hey at least we got a mini game where we get to control the monsters that turn into proofs we can spend on mats

[blazing bloom]

I'll add^ cut over sounds insensitive to the amount of time and work that goes into making such a change... im not a coder - i work in HR :).

But maybe remove mats from the old 1.0 store or proofs from dropping for it if the process of changing those over is too hard.

You did the terrority to settlements piece nicely - people could do it - but there weren't problematic rewards associated with it.

[paper void]

i don't think we're ready to force 2.0 just yet

[grave fulcrum]

Sorry rant over about why hoa is entirely faster and easier than orna is

[grave fulcrum]

Can we build a monument of our faction 1 day I'd love to see this added it would encourage me to Wana run monuments more as of rn they just get in the way when I scouting dungeons and feel slower than a dungeon

[upbeat gorge]

Holy text wall i ain't reading all that

[grave fulcrum]

Gist of it is hoa is easier and faster than orna with more availability than orna has due to the extreme diff in RNG and your celestial class reductions

[blazing bloom]

Can we make 2.0 rewards more problematic in the mean time? 🙂

Reward those early adopters

[upbeat gorge]

Skyshard cost was reduced because Orna has the potential to access many more towers than HoA. Orna has the potential to just 10x more dungeons than HoA. The whole point of Orna is it's GPS. If you dont move around, youre not gonna complete as much content, hence why I can do like 3 dungeons in a day. HoA is better, imo, in that you do it all from your couch.

Most players dont do normal proofs for mats anyway, they do it for greater proofs for proof ->k.orn buying. I even suggested that Orna have something similar and I was excessively downvoted, so it doesnt seem like Orna players want easier access to certain resources

[grave fulcrum]

We don't we like the way the game is structured now easier means less fun less longevity and frankly means anyone who puts in extreme hrs can catch someone who's put over a years worth of hrs

[upbeat gorge]

Putting in extreme hours should naturally progress you further than those that don't. This is exacerbated by looking at the AL of Orna vs HoA. Highest in Orna is over 300, highest in HoA is around 250. Could this be a difference in play time ? Sure, but both of these players put in extremely high hours into the game every day. not sure what else to say really

[grave fulcrum]

but if i put 365 days worth of time into the game and a new player can do it all in 4 months thats kinda bad

[upbeat gorge]

365 days of 4 hours vs 120 days of 8+ hours every day. Do the math?

[grave fulcrum]

nope! IN GAME TIME 365 days in game time vs 4 months about 120 days. it use to take people more than 24 hrs in game time to get lvl 225 it now takes someone with experience <24 hrs to get to 225

[snow burrow]

If new players can’t catch up to veteran players no matter how much effort they put in, that becomes a barrier to entry—and it will likely reduce the number of new players joining the game.

In an RPG, the fun comes from growing through effort and eventually achieving what you aim for.
Getting what you want too easily is certainly a problem—but I also think it’s just as problematic if things remain out of reach no matter how much effort you put in.

Becoming stronger by investing a lot of time is natural.

[grave fulcrum]

becoming stronger yes but you shouldnt become stronger than me with 1/3 my play time that would be where power creep enters and makes it so that the player with a years worth of play time was wasted and they should have just started when the 1/3 play time did

[grave fulcrum]

you mentioned als here you do realize that hoa has always had restricted refineries so for someone to have al 250 in less than half the time it took somone to get al 300 thats problematic

[upbeat gorge]

What is this in reference to, though? 200 quality gear? AL? Event gear? What is it?

A "new" player can reach t10, participate in events, grind raids, grind dungeons, in the same way you can if they put in the effort.

So where is your time going? Farming for AL? Whats the realistic different between AL10 and AL50? 40% stats?

A new player can easily grind good event gear, especially if they get lucky. Whats your point?

Also, your point about HoA AL....how long has HoA been out and how long has AL been out for?

[normal citrus]

for sweaty players orna allows you to prog much faster, i think that's objective

[plush nimbus]

(not related to the whole topic, but about the difference between AL 10 and AL 50 : it's 110% stat vs 150% stat)

[grave fulcrum]

hoa is 2 years old orna has had als for 3+ years refineries were the only thing that made als on orna sky rocket because they were uncapped and un monitored hoa say you managed a years worth of play time in the 2 years its been out is still faster ascending on hoa

possibly 3 years old i dont remember the exact release date. but als have been around since before i started orna and i had the 1 year badge before hoa came out

[upbeat gorge]

HoA came out in 2023, AL been out for 2 years before that.

Also, 250 AL vs 326 AL. Thats is a huge difference in Orns and mats. Youre downplaying that intentionally to make it seem like HoA is sooo much easier

[grave fulcrum]

so you think its reasonable to have in 2 years 76 less als than what the highest al grinded in 5 years

[snow burrow]

That’s what motivates top players to keep putting in effort.
If it takes two full years for a new player to catch up to someone who quit the game two years ago, then that gap becomes a two-year entry barrier for newcomers.

It’s also natural for games to evolve and introduce new systems over time.
But if someone remains a top player solely because of time invested in the past—without needing to adapt to new content—that feels wrong.

Of course, long-time players do have the advantage of what they’ve built over time, but the current conditions are equal for everyone. If you don’t want to fall behind, you just have to keep putting in the effort.

One of the things I love about ORNA/HoE is that even if you don’t keep grinding, your progress doesn’t disappear. It’s not a game that causes overwhelming stress from competition—you can enjoy it at your own pace, in your own way, and that’s perfectly valid.

[grave fulcrum]

mind you i dont think brye has played all 5 years and hes likely done it in 3 years but the point still stands

[upbeat gorge]

*I'm dumb it is 5

76 AL at the highest levels we have ever seen in the game.

[grave fulcrum]

yah so thats reasonable for them to spend less game time 2 years vs potential 4 years to only have a 76 al diff?

[upbeat gorge]

The player with 250 (Kliktu) has 6 alts, a personal kingdom for all his alts, and plays on all of his alt and his main every day. This level of intensity is absolutely beyond even dedicated players, and is not something that is remotely relevant to the average player in HoA

[grave fulcrum]

you realize that alt kgs have been a thing in orna predating hoa right?

[upbeat gorge]

ok?

[grave fulcrum]

further more people use to bot dungeons that were in the top 100 on orna and not even they achieved more than 100 als in 2 years

[upbeat gorge]

HoA players have also botted, it's in both games. Whats the point?

[grave fulcrum]

what im saying is achieveing all but 76 als in 2 years for something it took 4 years for a player to achieve is to fast and would be concidered what makes the game easy

[storm wadi]

Why are yall debating HOA and Orna in the Anguish feedback? This is just for Orna

[plush nimbus]

I used to get more cookies from cookie clicker than I get AL from Orna. Cookie clicker is just boosted

[snow burrow]

The sum from 1 to 250 is 31,375, and the sum from 250 to 326 is 22,176.
Since the materials required for AL scale with ascension level, the ratio should be roughly proportional—meaning there’s about a 30% difference in progression between the two.

A 30% gap is quite significant. considering that new content has been added to the game and overall efficiency has improved, I don’t think it’s an unreasonable figure.

[plush nimbus]

(31375 vs 53 301 is not a 30% gap, it's more, or I don't get something)
I don't think those kind of things - debating on how efficient you can be to grind AL on different game, especially when debatable mechanics are in this topic - really help regarding ang2.0 topic. But I may be wrong.

[snow burrow]

it was a 41% difference, my mistake in calculation.😭

I agree with you as well: HoE and Orna are different games that share the same system, and the optimal choices can vary between them.

Let’s get back to talking about Anguish 2.0.😆

[harsh geyser]

I would much rather HoA go its own way and for HoA opinions to not influence Orna than to try and force them to be together.
If people want infinity ALs and unshackled anguish being the primary mode of play, then go for it. Over there. 😅

[blazing bloom]

Do we know what criteria are being considered before sunsetting anguish 1.0?

[harsh geyser]

afaik, no.

[naive lynx]

I thought it was originally stated to be left on so people could spend what proofs they had left. Which could've taken maybe a week for hunting a certain mat? Imo it should've been phased max 1 week after release of 2.0

[pearl mango]

Uhm no hoa players yapped about wanting unshackled anguish it was mostly orna players complaining about that

Also this thread is for everyone not for orna players only to gate keep once this thread gets renamed to ORNA ONLY ANGUISH LIVE FEEDBACK then ill step out

[naive lynx]

I was originally on the to hell with shackles thing but it seems to have literally no affect on my speed or difficulty in content as long as you have gear. Just makes content have false difficulty and time consuming. Slowing churning to my unshackled content like Fuximus

[upbeat gorge]

I've been arguing for HoA and Orna progression/update split since the beginning 🙏 2 different games that play differently enough with different progression. Just separate us. Orna opinions dont work in HoA and HoA opinions dont work in Orna, as it is clearly seen.

[pearl mango]

I just dont like how hoa players gets stuff thrown at them they didnt even say im yet to see one hoa player say the stuff fuximin accused us of

[upbeat gorge]

Though typically I see hardcore players assuming everyone else plays exactly like them, in both games.

And yea, I also haven't seen HoA players want what Fuximus has stated. I also haven't seen any of us state that we want the 2 games combined. Where did this misinformation come from? Unless I misunderstood

[harsh geyser]

Let me get this straight.

Your opinion is that agony is fine, and that every other path needs to be brought up to its level. You admit now that agony is definitely faster than the others (hence why they need to be brought up), and then when told that agony lets people progress even faster than ang1.0 especially with jorms, you say no problem.

This is the "infinity ALs" viewpoint. Acceleration matters, but content doesn't seem to matter.

---

I don't play HoA, but isn't it already the case that HoA has much lessened unshackled penalty? Or, are you aware that the outcry in Orna is higher specifically because they're getting full unshackle penalty while HoA was given special (easier game) treatment?

[pearl mango]

Having a different opinion on how anguish path balance should be which alot of orna players share with me makes you feel the need make bold statements holding hoa players only accountable for such opinion?

[upbeat gorge]

Should we link the poll from Orna Discord that shows the majority wanting the proof drops to not be changed?

Also, the reason why HoA has a lessened penalty is because HoA players asked for it. Orna could have done the same. Whats the issue? Player communication?

[honest wolf]

I wanna know why someone who doesn’t play HOA thinks they have a hand in shaping what we do and how we do it

[harsh geyser]

Thankfully I don't, and don't want to.

[honest wolf]

That’s cool and all. But what gives you a whole reason to voice an opinion on a game you don’t play

[harsh geyser]

Because they keep showing up in Orna discord to tell us to change things, mostly 😅

[upbeat gorge]

People wanting change are coming from inside Orna discord. Again, the poll clearly speaks for itself, not to mention the plethora of discussion threads just in Orna discord, Specifically asking for change

[wintry vector]

Orna Feedback
"What about HoA?"

For any and all feedback HoA related, might I recommend the official discussion threads channel for HoA? You can find it here https://discord.com/channels/1002558846222471248/1052833169033941063

[harsh geyser]

I'm fine with all of that assuming they're Orna opinions. This is off the back of the last 200 messages being about measuring AL advancement rates in Orna v. HoA???

[normal citrus]

we dont have that lol

[wintry vector]

You infact, do. You simply create the thread. 🙂

[lean schooner]

hot take I guess - separate poll / discussion zone in hoa discord / price adjustment for HOA as a whole

[upbeat gorge]

Don't forget: Orna player began the discussion about how HoA is easier and specifically took the AL topic further than my passing comment.

[honest wolf]

So your first response as ORN is to decide what’s best for HOA players? Kinda of a goofy response if you ask me. It’s as if it’s not an open server and it one of the few ways to get our own words and opinions across to odie. You call us the hypocrites but yet are some of the most hypocritical folks I’ve seen

[wintry vector]

Infact, here you go! Someone already did. #1392512977483333792 message

[wintry vector]

Odie has responded to HoA discussion threads recently, so I believe you will reach NF there as well. They do have their own orns and mods too there solely dedicated to hoa.

[honest wolf]

You sure about that?

[harsh geyser]

In ORN, I represent Orna players and was never asked or expected to cover anything from HoA. You have an HoA discord, y'all should use it, or contact the HoA ORN reps to pass comments along to NF about how HoA should change.

Not sure where there is "hypocrisy" other than you're trying to find a negative word to attack me with.

[snow burrow]

I think the reason HoA players ended up here was because of the poll—it was only conducted through the Orna Discord, after all 🙂
That’s actually how I found my way here too.

I’m part of both the Orna and HoA communities in my local group. I believe that if we show each other a bit more respect, we can share valuable information and become good friends.

Orna has a larger number of long-time players, so I’ve noticed they tend to take a more conservative approach to things. That’s probably because they’ve experienced more incidents and issues than those of us who started playing more recently.
Even if I don’t agree with every conclusion they reach, I still respect their perspective.
🙏

[wintry vector]

I think the conservative view you see is in part to a lot of the changes in Orna being made to HoA and vice-versa. I personally don't believe HoA is its own standalone game yet, especially because of the mostly mirrored patch notes.

Am surprised the HoA community didn't get that poll, def an oops on NF's part.

[pearl mango]

99% of stuff that gets implemented in both games get decided here first without asking our opinion then we have to go out of our way to voice our opinions here cuz theres no anguish threads made for us no polls no nothing and then an orn whos supposed to represent the whole playerbase considering how similair the games are telling us we are not welcomed here or basically telling us to voice our opinion in a server that hasnt been looked at for ages

[wintry vector]

To be fair, if you look at the majority of the threads here they are also player made. Ya'll need to take initiative there to fill in the gaps.

[grave fulcrum]

Sounds like an issue on the HOA server and should be discussed with the devs/mods/orn over there

[pearl mango]

We have no orns odie hasnt been recruiting any in ages
We have 1 maybe 2 and one of them is busy with life

[normal citrus]

warren is the only guy im aware of

[grave fulcrum]

Take it up with the devs team again sounds like an issue on the HOA server not here

[left mauve]

Wait, why is there an HoA vendetta in Anguish feedback thread ?

[grave fulcrum]

They have easier scaling and therefore cannot provide feedback on ornas system

[upbeat gorge]

HoA players got told to gtfo ...by an ORN

[normal citrus]

it's different?

[harsh geyser]

There isn't. 🤷‍♂️ This is the Orna Anguish 2.0 feedback thread, where we talk about how Anguish 2.0 works in Orna.
Some people incorrectly think it's the correct place to vent about how HoA doesn't have moderation or enough ORN representation.

[pearl mango]

Fuximin decided to tell us off when most of us were giving feedback on anguish

[grave fulcrum]

Here's proof pic 1 orna pic 2 HOA

[normal citrus]

oh damn

[plush nimbus]

No, he specificaly pointed you for being a thread troll, and I can't agree more with it tbh. Of course, he had to use good wording for it.
That being said, let's maybe just all stop here for a moment to be back to the topic, idk.

[pearl mango]

This just shows how ignorant you are he wasnt even talking to me at first
That. Messege was toward another hoa player

[grave fulcrum]

Set as first pic for each is orna 2nd is hoa

[plush nimbus]

"1 message blocked" is all I can read. And god it feels so much better 😅
I wish we ll have some good improvement to the ang 2.0 system. Overall it's - IMHO - an improvement for the game, fresh, nice, enjoying

[left mauve]

Same feature on HoA and Orna. But HoA get it in easy mode.
So any nerf on Orna is even more justified on HoA.
Any buff on Orna is just more easy life on HoA.

Cant see any reason from HoA players to complain here 👍

in Fuximus we trust

[grave fulcrum]

Different path choices but pretty sure difficulty increase is the same for all paths options lmk if I'm wrong

[harsh geyser]

Everyone that plays Orna Anguish 2.0 should definitely check #game-announcements and the in-game notification for the survey about shackles.

[plush nimbus]

I selected "a change". Then when I saw the options for the next question I just get back and selected to keep as it is if I have to be honnest 😅

[harsh geyser]

Yeah, I had to do the same thing. There is no survey option for "make shackles mandatory from path L1+", unfortunately, even though I think it would be a better system.

[turbid sedge]

Why are we talking about the orna/hoa difference?

[grave fulcrum]

I'd like shackles to be a reward for bigger challenge personally and make unshackled the default play style but that's cuz I'm tired of hearing the high als complain about their als being taken with no compensation

[harsh geyser]

We're trying to move on from it, a few hundred posts later.

[trim breach]

While I get that HoA and Orna aren't the same game, I'd appreciate if we didn't make people feel unwelcomed for just trying to find a place to be vocal where they think eyes will see it. Everyone is feeling heavily, and it's ok for folks to try and make their points.

For what it's worth HoA folks - the only way we identify more ORN reps for the HoA is by having you host productive conversations with the HoA community in that server! Keep chatting there, get some support en masse and be productive and we'll identify the right reps to add 💪

In the interim, let's be kinder to each other please

[turbid sedge]

I like the idea of looking for solutions to have a better ang 2.0 but what I've seen for several days is that we go around in circles in the topic

[grave fulcrum]

Because hoa and orna anguish is literally different and hoa shouldn't have room to discuss balance for something that's easier for them. Imo if they Wana discuss anguish balance do it on HOA server where yall can balance easier content instead of balancing easier content for something that's not even comparable

I'm all for y'all getting your balance just don't try to balance orna and influence orna from hoa's perspective on easier content

[jaunty mist]

I don't get why ppl shrug off aethric players when most of orna updates get directly copied to aethric, and suport on aethric server is close to non existent

[grave fulcrum]

All of these images show same level HOA has easier scaling than orna. All of the picks with 165 proofs of agony are HOA all with 154 is orna
#1377194080718553150 message

[turbid sedge]

I'm going to leave the thread, it doesn't lead to anything anyway.

But next time I see you on the HoA server, I'll tell you to take care of your game

We're trying to find global solutions to 2 games, but with messages like this, where are we going?

[short osprey]

This is the main reason why I voted just to remove it completely, I feel we're to a point where it's a general consensus that the current iteration of shackles is not doing what it was intended to do, and all the suggestions/ideas so far have either been received negatively by the community or not ideal for the team, removing it would place less strain on players and even potentially give more data to NF to possibly reintroduce shackles in a new way

[jaunty mist]

and that's your argument to shrug them off? I have played aethric enough to know that while some aspects in aethric are easier, not everything is easier than orna. I'm just saying that invalidating HoA players opinion in an uncivilized manner is not the way to go.

[plush nimbus]

There are many shared things between Orna and HoA, and people are welcome. Main issue IMHO is people not helping about the topic (ang2.0), and it's both from HoA and Orna.
We had here many HoA players who helped a lot too.
It worked fine, no reason to change it. If there are some things too much specific there will be separated thread and so on.
Back to schackles and other topic like that !

[trim breach]

Heya folks - point has been made re: HoA and Orna. Let's stop it now thanks

Let's be kind, and HoA folks get some discussions going on your end for us to parse through too!

[grave fulcrum]

Yes sir I just have my opinion is all

[paper void]

It’s optional, fwiw. You’d still be voting change

[plush nimbus]

Oh I missunderstood this then 😅

[grave fulcrum]

Okay is there a way to balance orna shackles differently than hoa shackles tho. I feel like a lot of HOA players Wana see shackles remain and think they are fine as is compared to what the orna players believe. And that's just based on HOA scaling easier 4% for world farming lvl 1 and almost 20% for agony 3 and I feel that HOA players may influence the change for orna for shackles and make it seem like it's less of a big issue

[paper void]

I’m going to increase the slow mode on this thread again. Please, keep discussion focused on the Anguish experience and not at each other

[grave fulcrum]

This was focused on anguish experience and a legit concern I have based on the difference seen in the pictures above I'd like to balance orna anguish for orna players and give HOA their own balance for their anguish experience and as someone who's run anguish with both orna and hoa I know there was a difference. Hense why I asked for a way to balance things for each game specifically rather than allowing feedback to change based on HOA players voting differently than orna players.

Edit for HOA players you can create an HOA anguish live feed back here as well it doesn't have to be over there this would still give you guys a place to give feedback and Odie the ability to see the difference between orna anguish feedback and HOA anguish feedback

[jaunty mist]

Part of the problem is that aethric discord is not very active and a lot of the arguments put into the orna discord makes for updates that are pushed into aethric, so it's not as easy as saying: keep your arguments on aethric server and get your own updates (it's part of the reason many aethric players have been coming to orna discord, because they're not listened to and get updates based on orna opinions)

[left mauve]

oh ffs, will you just pleaaase burie that HoA/Orna discussion.

(AL 120 for context, i suppose it matter)
About shackles, i voted for better reward when playing shackeld.
Only reason is i dont play this much anymore, because of baby and motivation slowing down, and so playing tens of hours just to get the proof to get to the next ang level, and then repeat, feels bad. Even more if i cant really enjoy my ALs anymore.

But i'm pretty sure it could (and will) be abused and break the economy of the game, Goudine would probably do the math to proove it, so any other way of changing it would be good for me 👍

[raven bane]

Only tangentially related to the shackles conversation, but I think the system would be better if anguished gear bonuses applied earlier rather than at the end of the stat calc. Whether shackles stay or leave I would prefer a difficulty increase for that tradeoff. Its a bit weird because A) that is not how youd expect weapon stats to work across the rest of the game. So it can be confusing when a gear piece you expect to be doubled strength is a much smaller bonus
B) while AL would be more valuable the gear would be a much more important driver of progress. Right now I feel most people are just sitting on ang 1 gear for the passives and progressing fine.

[harsh geyser]

Yeah, the gear side of Anguish hasn't really been looked into enough. Several broken passives, plus the stats being additive instead of base means they're not particularly useful.

GS (at least) cares a lot about raising the level because the +stats are needed to even attempt to get good summon damage at higher levels. To the extent that summon damage is even a good way to clear things, that is, compared to just swinging an ATrev staff and doing a heretic impression.

[cyan mason]

Make anguished gears part of Al calculation! Not just flat stats! And add a toggle on/off on stat page to see our stats with/without anguished bonuses!

[plush nimbus]

Oh please no (for the last part 😋)
And what about removing the proof cost to increase guild lvl ?
Meaning : your guild lvl increase the same way, but rather than spending proof for it, it just up as you play the content ?
Just asking as it may not solve all the issue people are expressing with schackles but it may help a bit, idk

[glossy nimbus]

I think spending currency to increase guild levels, although potentially unpopular, is a good way to deflate the anguish currency - that way, not everything goes to rewards. I take it as "investing" in yourself for the future

but I understand the perspective entirely and I would argue one side has advantages over the other (and vice-versa)

[left mauve]

that would mean passively farm our anguish level while enjoying the proof we loot?
Seems good to me ! Even if it meant for the leveling up to take more time.

Honestly the "pay proof to level up" is the worst part of Ang2.0 for me. You always aim for the next level because of FOMO, and never enjoy your hard work. It feels never ending and i get bored af.

I would welcome anything that would break that loop.

[short osprey]

Maybe add a 5th type of proof type of drops that comes from all 4 paths/type of content that is specifically used for purchases in the guild shop (mats, DWT, CRU, etc...).
Then the proofs of "insert path name here" are solely used to level up, and make it so that shackles reduce all gains except for the proofs used to level up?

[plush nimbus]

Now this thread is looking good again 🎉

[grave fulcrum]

I personally grind to a point that I feel is giving me a solid proof rate and then stop forcing levels and focus tools and stuff. I'm still in the process and only grab a tool when I'm going from lvl to lvl upgrading exactly 1 item each time unless i get a ang lvl item same as current ang lvl

[nimble dawn]

Shackle change suggestion since it was not in the list
make shackle make you lose progressively more AL level. meaning if you are AL40, and you are at shackle 10, you are at AL30 when activated.
This would mean that someone at anguish 250, does not get a 240 AL loss at shackle 10. but instead drops to 240.

This makes shackle more a "how far can you climb?" rather then a crowbar in the kneecap until you reclaim your AL

Raising your AL becomes useful to fight against difficulty again.

Difficulty still goes up, having a minimum AL makes sense as a way to say that you cannot have negative AL

I feel it would make shackling more intuitive with the system, the weight of the anguish level having more strain on your ascension

[left mauve]

it need to be investigated a little more, but i kinda like this idea 👍

Still have to grind for your Ang level to get more reward, but we could benefit from the content we've done

Also only path level would give benefit to shards/orn/etc/proof rate, while the fifth currency would be mat/tools oriented, so all path still need to be farmed

it seems to be a LOT of work for NF to refine it and dev it tho

[plush nimbus]

About Kyalexx comment regarding the work for NF to refine, maybe just keep currencies as it is, and add back the old "guild exp" rewards we already had (and still have in several guild like DM). Talking about DM, I would like to share my... Jk no worries

[short osprey]

Unsure wym by "old guild exp" but I'm talking more in lines of splitting up level up proofs and currency proofs, which could allow people to still progress in the guild unshackled without making it so they can just earn crazy amounts of mats, which in turn could also help the agony scaling issue allowing to a separation there

[wanton raft]

The problem I would have with this is it makes the normal proofs less valuable in the long run and it will get to a point those are kinda useless. I think i like the current proof system in concept. Farming a specific one you like doing to get the proofs for tools and crucibles is something I functionally like.

[plush nimbus]

• Guild exp = you earn guild exp points when running the content. It can be same for schack and unschak. That's what make your path lvl up
• Guild currencies remain the same, and drop rate is increased if you run schack, just like it is currently
  (Not sure it's a good solution for now, just sharing the idea so maybe we ll find something interesting around it)

[old aspen]

An experience threshold would be cool: you need to kill x mobs on x-1 anguish with a small currency price to get to anguish x seems cool to me.

That way you need to farm at challenging levels to gain more challenge. Rather then sitting at 5

[plush nimbus]

Feels like we re slowly going Somewhere. Sounds cool

[languid adder]

Honestly i like this.
I dont understand why we have to chose between using currency to level up this guild, or actually getting rewards.
Its unique to this guild, and is MUCH more extreme then in anguish 1, to the point where i dont understand how this happened.

I would be down with exactly that.

Aaaand were back on 10 Minutes.
Really, i would love to say that i can understand, but im not sure what i can believe anymore.

Regardless, @old aspen i like how this would solve been stuck at 4 for high AL players.
Still have to deal with the fun killing, punishment-only design that current shackles is and probably solve that first, but except that, i think this would be a much more fun system.

And Odie, im glad seeing you back. Hope your vacation was amazing - thank you for the poll, and that we cant see results so far, which means we cant let that influence our decision, which i really like.

[old aspen]

I just took a tiny step from the hard work others put into thoughts on a new system. Not sure I can take much credit

[finite flint]

the temporary "we want to catch up to our AL anguish equivalent" part will fix itself with time anyway. yes it would be better if it was possible to play at anguish 18 or 20 or whatever you AL allows quicker but it's not a long term problem. problem is you can't farm at that high anguish anyway except perhaps agony in duo if the level is high enough. and once you reach that cap there is nothing you can do to improve, because more AL won't be allowed because of shackles. yes anguished gear not scaling with AL Is terrible as well and puts the cap at a lower level but if enemies scale more than you and you are capped in scaling, the game as a hard cap. and some classes have it far before other classes. AL was great to endgamers because it gave infinite progression chances, even if slow and small progress, it was there. in anguish 2.0 that disappears. we are still excited because almost no one among us is at the cap yet, so we whine because levelling anguish is very slow (except agony). and if torment anguish 23 isn't farmable, "who cares", people didn't farm towers in anguish 1.0 at 40 anyway. but for raids solo and dungeons it's not going to be fun to be capped. and yes you are capped even if al 188 gives you anguish 38 and 6 more al are allowed at 39. at some point (far before your cap) you realize you get more rewards at lower levels per hour spent, and that nothing you can drop or do in the game ever is going to change that. that's the problem

[cinder jolt]

Spending proof to lvl does feel kinda bad
I barely anguished my gear, just because the system needs self fueling
It’s always this constant decision between investing, or actually working on the gear and build
And I think, for most of us, investing always ends up looking like the better choice

I'll say that the alchemist -> masterforge -> invetory -> demonworking tool -> repeat felling such a chore strengthens the previous point
We could reeeeeeally use some QoL here

Also I never feel like demonforging or godforging anything anymore
Such hassle for a limited time benefit and the mat price feels like wasted
(just maybe for those ang 1 gear that won't be upgraded for a long time, if ever)

Despite these concerns, it's been great
I'm back to playing more after the ang 2.0 release, and I’m having a good time
Thanks Odie and NF team

[nimble dirge]

I can relate on the hesitance to demonforge/godforge 😅 I've just been keeping my weapon at masterforge because I don't know when I should upgrade it again. Kind of just waiting for that progression wall or something.

[languid adder]

"The problem could solve itself" is a terrible mentality when the problem is dividing a huge part of the community. Especially if it makes some of those not enjoy the system, because they feel disrespected.

[nimble dirge]

I don't think criticizing their message really helps the ongoing discussion. Better to focus on useful input for the topic instead of spiraling things negatively.

[oak axle]

I would buy a three leg'd mutt that listens over someone giving me a purebred dog that shits in the house.

[full peak]

Rise anguish by killing enemies and gain exp from 1 anguish lower sounds great to me. Or there can be some partial exp the more away you are from your current level.

Making stats of the item increasing directly (being in their right spot of the stats calculation) rather then at the back (and even not working properly) would be nice. Even shackles (the previous - more steeper) would make more sense with that.

[full peak]

Also - we really need "-% effect of ward skills" in anguish maluses. As due it super high M1, super high dmg overall, no maluses, and turtle build - best option for anguish raiding later.

Crit skills are hit hard, elemental skills too, pets? Well elemental are, some not. But IDK if I saw any broken build in that term (didn't watch much to Beo lately)...and Summoners are hit in raid even without ang.

[snow sage]

Are things fixed and sorted yet ?

I'm finding it very hard to grind and motivate knowing something major gonna be changing (?).

[languid adder]

Asking to ignore a big problem that iterates from a design flaw that punishes you the more you invested into the game is nit constructive, and should not be ignored.

The community in regards to anguish is nuts tho. Some just want pure suffering, some want an extremely slow progression, some undermine issues that are very present, but want to sweep them under the rug because it doesnt affect them.
I feel like the rework released, this community went borderline insane and all the dirty sides, hidden between the lines - from clown emojis to wishing people a terrible experience -, has arisen, and i cant say im proud to be part of the orna community for the first time in 5 years.
I really hope that once anguish is in a better shape i never have to discuss with this discord about anything else ever again.

[finite flint]

I am AL 189 so i am punished more than you by shackles, and i dislike shackles and i wouldn't have implemented them at all and i said that from the beginning. But it's still a temporary problem, and that makes it less relevant in the long term, where instead anguish 2.0 was supposed to be something that gives longer term goals for the next years. But it's capped by enemies scaling more than us + the maluses adding up and making most builds unplayable (which restrict options and increases the problem of class balances , with few options the only long term playable classes are those that are best in whatever build is less touched by maluses)

[languid adder]

Okay, Hearing it from this perspective, i get what you mean. I understand.
It is the major driving point of why i destroy my sanity in this thread trying to advocate for change in anguish tho - but i fully get what you mean.

[sturdy stump]

I still dont mind shackles, but I do wish there was some scaling of anguish gear with AL. Currently its basically the case that anguishing your gear has less of an impact the higher your shackle al is, because those stats are not multiplied by ascension. But you also dont want a scenario where players scale faster than ang I guess so not sure exactly how it could be addressed

[naive lynx]

My whole thing is shackles don't do anything except slow people down. For geared high end players they serve about zero purpose. There's no real difficulty or challenge with them on. Just a hindrance and false difficulty. By the time most people become unshackled the content still isn't really that hard with decent gear and the right builds

[paper void]

Every anguish level should have its monster stats counterbalanced by both ascension and anguished gear stat additions. Making anguished gear exponential would mean monster stats also need to be exponential, which would likely put a hard cap on the levels that are doable

[bronze plinth]

we want harder content. so its wise that anguish gear does not scale via als

[raven bane]

Right now the stats of anguish gear feel too little imo and not how you expect gear stats to work.

May just be a clarity issue

[full peak]

I will put this here again, didn't check if this is corrected, but since Odie was away. Even the anguished stats are not counted properly ...or is my math flawed somewhere?

Ok, AL11 Deity test with anguish stats:

Gradlon staff, ang0:
HP: 536
Mag 1417

Gradlon staff, ang5
HP: 616
Mag: 1629

difference:
HP: +80
Mag: +212

1.11 = AL bonus
1.1 = OT bonus

Deity ang0 stats naked:
HP: 14 141 = 14 141 / 1.11 = 12 740 (base Deity HP....AL) ✅
Mag: 1 536 = 1 536 / (1.11 + 1.1) = 1 270 (base Deity mag....OT+AL) ✅

Deity ang0 with Gradlon:
HP: 14 736 [+595 / 1.11 = 536 ] ✅
Mag: 3 251 [+ 1715 / ( 1.11 + 1.1 ) = 1417.3 ] ✅

Deity ang5 with Gradlon:
HP: 14 780 [ 595 + 44 ...where ang SHOULD BE +80 ] ❓
Mag: 3 380 [ 1715 + 129 ...where ang SHOULD BE +212]❓

[tacit ridge]

Malus are also buggy, at least accuracy seems to be giving a higher value than it should https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1392113838329172129

[sinful vapor]

Anguished stats/bonuses also don't apply for the current floor if you leave and reenter a dungeon. #1384372091020771338

[spiral goblet]

I get ya! I find it crazy I've had to read things like way to many middle fingers being shoved in faces by nf, or the feeling of beeing spat on... or the wildest one... "slavery mindset"... this feedback channel has been wild to say the least

[supple cape]

Just wanted to clarify since the survey doesn't allow for much nuance: Personally, I think the shackles are annoying but a non-issue as they are and am fine with them. I voted for shackles as a bonus in the survey since I think that will get the widest community support.

[bronze oar]

I do feel like losing the godforge for an anguish level is punishment. I know the game is intended to be grindy. But the thought of regrinding all my gear every anguish level really dissapoints my satisfaction feeling with this game. 😦 What if we had a 2nd set of demonworking tools we could buy that cost twice as many proofs but kept your godforge status?

[paper void]

if you don't need all of your gear at the current anguish level always (you likely don't), you can DWT something else to meet the level requirements. it doesn't need to be your main gear

[wanton raft]

I don't think the un godforging is a huge deal. Your weapon is kind of the most important one to upgrade. My basic strategy was to pick one of piece to DWT for a few levels and then work on godforging it again and level up a different item for a few levels. Just rotate and upgrade one piece at a time.

[short osprey]

It probably feels that way because anguish stats don't scale with ALs (determined from some personal and collaborative testing)

[raven bane]

Yeah, I'm aware of that, and I realize why it may be concerning as far as difficulty balance, but it goes against expectation when it says your weapon will get this many stats in anguish content but doesn't tell you that there are modifiers that only apply to the base. In general, I think if anguish gear cannot scale with AL, then it should receive a light bump in stat department. IMO the system would feel better if getting good anguish gear would be a primary mover in getting anguish levels, and right now it feels more like a just nice to have.

I also think there should be some ward scaling. I understand that direct ward scaling might create problem, so perhaps a health or defense/res bonus for gear that gets ward. IMO you get a level 1 spiked greatshield and nothing will ever replace that for those builds.

[oak axle]

CoA on raids give no bonus. It's just a chance for anguish gear. The whole point I thought for 2.0 was to fix raids w/ anguish...
Where is the increase on orn/exp/gold. Also .01% for quality drops that doesn't move up on raids is ridiculous, 1/10,000 🤷‍♂️

[jaunty mist]

I mean the point was to have a reason to do raids with anguish and we got it with increased quality drops, raid gear is still BiS in most cases, no need to make it too easy to get in top quality

[oak axle]

What the hell are you talking about. Do you not understand what .01% is, and that the number don't increase on raids. That was the main point of the 2.0 🤣

[jaunty mist]

Can you try and not be so aggressive? I won't engage in this kind of behaviour. Do you know how that 0.01% is calculated?

[short osprey]

Its not actually a % confirmed by Odie, it goes from 1/200 -> 1/199 like sphinx tails, so getting higher anguish definitely makes a difference

[plush nimbus]

Do we have to ask for emoji react to be removed from thread ? That's a bit annoying @oak axle This thread has been a complete mess for quite some time and now that it's fine-ish again I truly hope it will remain as it is 🙏🏻 thank you 💜

[wanton raft]

Hopefully the survey gives good insight to NF and we can be taking a step forward soon.

[paper void]

Let’s take a step back. This aggression and immature reacts are the reason we have to slow mode these threads

[oak axle]

I dout 1/200 when there is 9 different quality on accessories, and 7 on gear.

[short osprey]

It's 1/200 for ornates yes

[oak axle]

So DF is 1/10,000

[exotic jasper]

Accessories? Odie said it is 1/100.000 at EXP-less T4 voice chat party

[timber furnace]

Maybe anguish could sightly(very very sightly) increase mf/df/gf acc chance 👀 ||or maybe not ||

[oak axle]

Quality drop rate on raids is .01% which doesn't increase with anguish lvl. .01% is 1 out of 10,000. So on the rng there means there is 10,000 to roll into; and if not then .01% is bogus all together.

[storm wadi]

it does increase with anguish as long as you choose the path with it.

[paper void]

Yes, options A & C increase drop quality

[normal citrus]

i mean something > nothing

[paper void]

i'm guessing you are getting confused by the UI problem: https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1382735867319418950

it's fixed in the current beta

but yes, drop quality does increase. you can check the full summary to verify

[tacit ridge]

Oh, that’s a very significant bug for anyone that’s leveled a guild enough. Might need to waste some pathspurs

[oak axle]

Thanks for show me this. Makes my choice easier not to pursue it at all. I am not grinding on a chance to get something that might not come. I'll raid at lvl-1 and just use proofs to lvl anguish gear. No added orn and a slight increase on rng for quality is just wasting my time.

[bronze plinth]

Odie i gotta say... i love the anguish update! It makes eos a usable follower! I feel like it finaly found a home ❤️

[next flame]

Just since Ang update I’ve gotten these, and I’m very casually running through. At very low Ang levels.
So the drops are there I’m not sure I’m getting what the issue is

[peak pond]

The example was for raids, where orn bonus should be rather irrelevant. Instead you have a substantial luck bonus and anguish gear chance. For dungeons you of course have orn/xp/luck bonus. For towers, you get a bonus for tower shards (and orn etc). But yes, the drop quality remains similar (only slightly increased for all content).

[supple cape]

Anyone that wants more rewards out of raids will engage with this system as-is since it makes your superboss scrolls that much more loot effective. The ornate bonus is whatever, you'll get maybe a few more ornates per the horde of scrolls you get in an event rotation... but the real value of agony raiding is the large raid luck bonus. At Agony 10 I have a raid luck bonus almost equivalent to a crest of felling. With Agony 10 raid luck and a crest of felling, I get almost guaranteed legendary drops.

[grave fulcrum]

Did nf say the luck bonus it gives works for raids I didn't know if they did or not