Anguish Live Feedback

[bronze plinth]

I think you dont understand the issue

The reward from playing the content is not balanced compared to the costs

[woeful raven]

After shackles we start from same line.

[bronze plinth]

You def dont understand

Maybe its language barrier

I dont care if i have als or not, but the rewards vs increased diff is not balanced

[woeful raven]

I think the difficult will not be a problem after patching crucible & demonwork tools cost.

[bronze plinth]

Oh god

The cost of lvling up is just mad

And barely gives any extra reward in trade

[woeful raven]

Staying ang4 & leveling full set ang4 equipment, after that start ang5 with shackles.

[bronze plinth]

I dont want to spend time in ang lvl 4 if i can do higher

[woeful raven]

Just my opinion, saw some expert player doing it on this way.

[bronze plinth]

I never said shackles are my problem

The problem is the proof cost on lvling up and raids/ content not giving enough proofs to get into ang lvl matching your al etc

Currently lvl 1 agony costs like 100 summoning scrolls/moondrops

And next lvl costs 225

And so on

You run out of raids before getting any benefit

[woeful raven]

It can be abuse by party raid.

[bronze plinth]

I dont want to abuse anything

I want to grind my way to ang 10-20? That matched my al and happily try to beat the raids

Not using all my scrolls to get into lvl 2

[woeful raven]

4 player party raid will be fastest on ang progess now.

If adding more ang proofs drops will abuse it.

It encourage party play, i hope the game had more party content.

[bronze plinth]

Idk i just have to disagree with you

We are not on the same page

It does not need to increase proof drops. Lowering the level up cost would work much better

[languid adder]

That does not make much sense, also please read my message again, as you didnt get what i said about dungeons.

With increasing anguish level towers will take a multitude of the time it takes right now regardless, because at some point you will have to full buff for every single fight, and also use ward, etc. If you do anguish content in higher anguish levels, you will level your guilds much slower and get much less rewards, so you definitely do the content for the tokens.

And yes, im aware you get a resource increase. You don't farm towers in farm gear, so the orns, gold and exp wont do a lot for you, they dont even make up for the additional time spent per battle. Also, if my fights take 300% longer on average, getting 40% more shards is definitely not doing it for the guild.

You can check the rates in beta, just make a new character in sandbox mode, get a single t10 anguished ornate, and level as much as your heart desires.

Anguish 2.0 isnt even out for a week...?

Endgame players will not rush it because of shackles.
We want hard content, but hard content should be fun and rewarding. Current iteration is not rewarding, and unfun for veterans

[languid adder]

You have. Most players who dont understand our problems are low players or fresher T10, cause they see a system designed for them, something they look forward to as orna is a slow progression game and they can work it up with their account.
We already worked our accounts up, and i share the sentiment of "i dont want to spend hundreds of painful hours until i can reach a point in the new guild where i no longer feel handicapped for no apart reason but distaste for my progress"

[bronze plinth]

Yeah its weird that we have to handicap ourself in low lvl anguish and make the grind slow af so that we cant get into the ang lvl that matches our als and power

[languid adder]

I think the concept is fun, but looking at the execution, its not done in a good way. I dont mind handicapping myself, if that means a bonus for me. Currently, i either lose an insane amount of power, or an insane amount of rewards that somehow is worse then anguish 4... 19% to 0,95% makes zero sense.
Lose-Lose. Either choice is an insane reward nerf in both cases. Not fun, not engaging; actual anguish.

[bronze plinth]

I know right!

[languid adder]

We tested a lot in beta, rates were not included. I cant believe we didnt talk about the bugged scaling of shackles, but hey, we can fix it now. ^^

[bronze plinth]

Before ang 2.0 i enjoyed gob forts with high ang lvl. Now its not possible without awfull amount of grinding for lvls

[languid adder]

Tbf i enjoyed gob fortress before it got turned into a bugged mess of content... X3 got my obog in one

[bronze plinth]

Lol i liked the endless level of rewards with high ang

I wonder if there is any chance that the lvl up costs are being reduced

[nocturne night]

fwiw, it's never 0. You always get 1 guaranteed proof from the victory screen. Meaning even if you always get 0 from the "rewards" screen, it should still never take longer than 110 raids to level from 1 to 2.
Secondly, splitting the raids makes this fairly cheap, since the victory screen is never split. This means that if you have a party of 4 people, and each person drops 28 scrolls/moondrops, everyone is guaranteed to go from 1 to 2, regardless of what they get from the rewards.

That being said, it's not like I don't understand what you mean. It's slow and not ver rewarding. All proofs have the same Weight right now, even though some are much harder / more expensive than others to obtain

[bronze plinth]

Yea but getting 0 on rewards is possible tho

[nocturne night]

The most reliable way to have that balanced is by gathering data though. Which NF can do from people playing

[bronze plinth]

Yeah

[nocturne night]

Yeah, but 0 from rewards is still 1 proof

It should never actually take you 100 raids to level from 1 to 2

[bronze plinth]

Yup i get it i just did not count the kill reward screen

[nocturne night]

I think it took Covyn about 100 raids to get to level 3?

[bronze plinth]

Maybe i try to drain my scrolls for proofs

Maybe im over dramatic

[languid adder]

We may dream! Initial cost of 110 seems fair for towers and dungeons, but the exponential growth gets ridiculous, especially cause 1,5-2% proof increase is nothing, adding to the severe loss in clear speed every higher anguish level provides after the first few.

[bronze plinth]

Yeah dungeon costs is imo okay bc horde can give you some nice amount quite fast

[languid adder]

Not only do you take +100% base cost for ~+2% proof chance, but you also take the ~20% stats, for about ~1,025% power increase per ascension with full anguish gear you're allowed to use (not 1,03% cause you can anguish accs afaik)

[languid adder]

And horde is no longer an option soon

[bronze plinth]

Mostly bitching about 110 proofs of agony

[languid adder]

Then think about that 5 costs 527, and you get the tokens much much slower.

Cause shackle or go screw yourself

.95% proof chance for high AL, babyyyy

[bronze plinth]

Yeah that is alot scrolls

[bronze plinth]

#💡│suggestions message

Could start from lvl 5

[languid adder]

Amazing suggestion, but will get downvoted by low T8-10 :(

Because they wont allow us to use the thousands of hours we farmed to, well, farm better

[bronze plinth]

Yeah good point

[languid adder]

Biggest anguish issue i see is the punishing nature and unfun progression for anybody who farmed before. I dont wanna spend hundreds of hours feeling like my progress didn't matter before i can breathe again with current rates and current design, its spelunker guild reward tier paired with progression so slow we have nothing to compare

[broken pike]

I don't think a slow grind is even encouragement for low lvl players. Look how many never make it to t10/11 because the grind to get there without a network to level fast is slowww even with it being way faster than it used to be

May be fun for them at first, but I bet engagement drops off big time in a couple weeks or so

[bronze plinth]

Yeah idk why someone would like such lvl up costs

[languid adder]

As comparison, ascension are a very slow grind. But, there is no strings attached, no bottleneck, no nothing. You get exactly what you farm for. Its fun, and you know what you get.
Then, we slowly got content that devaluates ascensions, and people for some reason got tools to cheat around the power we farmed for (conq has an item that disables Ascension lv).
This is just ridiculous.

Spending hundreds of hours so it MIGHT be rewarding, is not an option i will take.

If my time is rewarded, i gladly take harder fights, spend more time, dont steamroll content. Thats what i want, the old feeling of orna, where i had to put effort into things.
But theres a very big difference if its because i didnt farm the required power yet, or because a gameplay mechanic just tells me to screw myself instead of providing a healthy alternative

[fierce cedar]

this. trust the studio to try to keep us playing the game they obviously love

[upbeat latch]

Just hold on to your proofs. It's been a while since I've played actively, but I don't remember NF making retroactive changes when balancing. No telling if you'll get those spent proofs back if they lower the cost later on.

Though I guess if the cost is static for everyone maybe they will

[snow sage]

How do I use a crucible

[exotic jasper]

1. Make sure you are on last Orna update.
2. Select the anguished weapon
3. Use the crucible

[grave fulcrum]

Right but here's the thing because players are such min/max time players they will find an anguish point that they can complete towers at about the same speed while also not having to buff or anything so they'd balance the content with proofs of torment and tower shard gains which would make towers too profitable by increasing the amount of enemies who drop proofs. Towers are perfect where they are and the proofs they generate are fine monuments could possibly use t9 enemies as an addition but only because monuments are quick and easy but getting 1/2 floors isn't great. And yes anguish 2.0 hasn't been out a whole week which is why I had said after it's been out about a week or 2 after Odie finalizes everything.

[granite cove]

It's like a whetstone, if you just anguished the piece of gear you have to exit and go back in, similar to after using a whetstone

[snow sage]

I had to unadorn it

My dungeon slicer

This is a really cool feature

Avidity Crit Stacking Anguish Slaying

[granite cove]

Did you not have to demon tool it first? Or did you arleady GF it back up?

[snow sage]

GFd

Used my Odie tools and my guild reward one on it

[granite cove]

The Godforging Tool?

[snow sage]

Then lucked out

[granite cove]

ah lol

none of mine have GF'd yet

[snow sage]

https://tenor.com/view/thor-thor4-gorr-the-god-butcher-jane-foster-thor-love-and-thunder-gif-25762318

[timber furnace]

You don't really need to unadorn, I used my demon tools in gear with adornments

But when you buy a demonforge tool you need to exit and reopen Orna

[languid adder]

The reward increase on high anguish does not outweight the loss in shards, i tested in beta. Dont worry.

[languid adder]

Yes button only appears if the game is started with those in your inventory.

[grave fulcrum]

so dont do high anguish duh

you do say anguish 15 because you can still clear it at the same speed or under 30 mins

now you get ang 15 torment proofs

and you get 45k tower shards

[fierce cedar]

just gonna leave this here

no its not raids, yes i think the numbers will change probably

[languid adder]

Still think the overall rewards should be higher for higher level, and proof chance should scale slightly exponentially; its not bad as it is right now, just also not good.

The 5 discord active people who will progress over 4 will probably tell us in a few months ;P

[fierce cedar]

my kids want everything too, is what i want to say

:p

[languid adder]

So you think that rewards shouldnt increase the more you progress in content?

Sounds like a very weird thing to be sassy about.

[glass mango]

Idk if its becuz im t10 but an unthemed dungeon only nets me ~1-2 proofs

[grave fulcrum]

this imo is completely reasonable

[glass mango]

I think it would be cool if you could get more proofs from normal dungeons so you dont have to run endless everytime

[fathom frost]

Hey guys im t10 almost t11 fresh, what path of anguish would you recommend?

[glass mango]

You can take all of them

The paths is just to seperate the content, they are not exclusive

[mystic rose]

Find what you enjoy most in it, and farm that

[bronze plinth]

I dislike the way how current anguish punishes its players

Making everything slower and not rewarding is weird

[fierce cedar]

i want to suggest a feature for raid path, that you can either fight your raid solo, with your current party, or with a random matchmaking party.

the way party dmg share working splits it evenly between people in the fight, and the dmg can be applied to everyone's individual raid

(so 4 raids, one party, one fight together, fix leader death situation, and 4 raid loot piles)

(or if you wipe, 4 raids w damage from 4 people)

[bronze plinth]

I did some party raiding and it felt horrible due 1 player afking and servers dying in the same time

And as reward i got only 1 proof of agony

On kill screen

0 as drop

I do prefer solo play instead forced party play

[naive lynx]

Has anyone pushed past four yet?

[languid adder]

Is this because of party play in itself as a concept or is it because of the horrible state of party play in orna?

[glass mango]

I dislike partyplay becuz I have no friends

[sonic summit]

I did but had to change my start to do them, it's much slower so I just stick to 4 most of the time

[short osprey]

Think I will probably be able to hit torment 5 tomorrow

[nocturne night]

I'm halfway to 3 on towers. It's a slow process

[dim jacinth]

I'm 1-4-5-2

wake me up once someone gets path of despair 2

[sonic summit]

Maybe this will help

[dim jacinth]

anguished Hyperion splitting to the moon 🚀

[naive lynx]

Suuuper slow lol. Might as well not worry about ALs this year

[sinful vapor]

Very jealous

[short osprey]

Actually might hit it today, 1 tower just net me 65 Proofs 👀

[naive lynx]

I feel like towers are the most fun out of all the anguish now. I'm going out of my way to hunt the t10s. Dungeons feel like bread and butter per usual but nice that we can double dip with event mobs

[valid mesa]

Hello, I was talking on the general chat but maybe this is more appropriate. I'm a casual player only AL30.
If I understood correctly the new system, with demonworking tools, when you want to upgrade an item with it the gear will drop to level 10, so you have to do the Masterforge -> Demonforge -> Godforge upgrade again each time you want the gear to pass to your current anguished level.
As a casual player I find it very excessive, and not at all appealing to (re)farm something like this EACH time, and for EVERY of your gear or just be lucky to drop again an 200% ornate. It is a little bit overwhelming to be honest.
But maybe there is something I didn't understood correctly.
What is the general opinion on this ?

[sonic summit]

You only need your item to be masterforged to use demon tool on it

And the price for masterforging/demonforging is divided by 2 4 for anguished item I think

[sinful vapor]

Masterforging or demonworking an anguished item only costs 25% of the mats

And yeah, only need to mf it for next level. If yoy want to use it heavily you may want to df/gf it

[valid mesa]

Then you still have to godforge it after that, honestly one thing I liked was when dropping a 200% was that it feels "finished" after having it in godforged.
I can get needing to farm something to upgrade the anguished level of the gear no issue with that, but having to farm mats that are needed to ascension + going again the RNG route to godforge EACH time you upgrade the anguished level, and for each of your gear, it just feels to much

[glass mango]

How is this possible

[sinful vapor]

Two people already clarified you don't need to godforge or demonforge for each level

[valid mesa]

Sorry english not my main language, I get that you don't need to and you can just have masteforged to pass it to the next level. But if you want to max upgrade your gear because the content is harder and you need to do it, you'll have to redo it everytime, each level, again and again, it feels overwhelming but maybe it just me

[short osprey]

@dim jacinth, Wake up

[nocturne night]

https://tenor.com/view/addams-family-do-it-again-gif-8807068

[short osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/i-dont-know-kylo-ren-ben-solo-ben-swolo-adam-driver-gif-18172410183960697461

[timber furnace]

Event monster should also give proof of despair/proof of torment for WF/Monuments

[thin storm]

Despair should drop 1 to 3 proofs honestly, whenever it drops 👀

[nimble dawn]

https://playorna.com/codex/items/last-martyrs-longbow/

Feels that bonus is MUCH stronger in old anguish then the new anguish

since you get more dificulty boost per anguish level in the new one than the old one

[timber furnace]

That bonus didn't work in old anguish

[bronze plinth]

The state and efficiency in general

[short osprey]

#patch-notes message
New Proofs of Agony rate 👀

[livid sonnet]

osom

[short osprey]

Oh wow, this is agony 1

[nimble dawn]

oh lol i am glad i never done that raid

[nimble dawn]

WOW

[grizzled halo]

I’ve done countless raids since 2.0 was released but haven’t had a single agony drop yet.

[timber furnace]

Niceeee

[timber furnace]

You should be getting at least 1 proof per kill

[grizzled halo]

I haven’t done any since yesterday but no I killed raids at my OT

Still no proofs

[short osprey]

Are you spawning new raids with Agony turned on/up to at least 1?

Because you won't get any from any raids spawns beforehand

[grizzled halo]

Ah no I’m just using my already spawned ones

Ok that’s my problem then, I need to kill about 100 raids before I summon more then.

[short osprey]

I still have yet to clear out my OT as well, been just spawning 1 at time until I stop being lazy and clear it out LOL

[weak steeple]

Hey just wanted to gauge opinion -

How are people feeling about the jump from Ang4 to Ang5, where shackles take effect?

Might make a poll for this

[sinful vapor]

I'm not there yet, but it's dumb that you get less rewards at ang5 unshackled than ang4

I'd rather ang4 be lowered to match than have ang 5 be lower

This was my suggestion

Raise the lower bound on unshackled ang 5+ and lower the reward for ang 4 is a happy middle ground

[weak steeple]

Nice yeah theres good ideas to work around the issue. Just gauging opinion. I think im going to make a poll

[mystic rose]

Agreed. Make the beginning levels that are unshackled less rewarding so it's not best to just run ang 4 forever

[mystic rose]

I'm at 1-8-8-1

[paper void]

The first few levels are designed to be accessible to T8-T10, so reducing rewards only hurts our lowbies

[mystic rose]

Makes sense

[fierce cedar]

tear off that band-aid!

[weak steeple]

#💡│suggestions message

[sinful vapor]

If we don't want to lower ang4 rewards then we'll need to increase unshackled ang5+

Otherwise it's pretty clear that most players will just hang out at ang4 for the foreseeable future

[mystic rose]

Imo, making all unshackled content better isn't a great solution to this. Just makes the problem worse

[raven bane]

Imo any of the below would really help:

A) Apply unshackled penalty to just the growth
B) increased shackled benefit
C) Reduction of level up costs
D) Some combination of the above

[storm wadi]

Or just remove shackles and double down on the roguelite aspect. Ang 2.0 is already intended to get progressively harder as you increase anguish levels, make each level up have a harsher penalty and it will eventually balance with high AL. That's what I'd like to see anyways

[raven bane]

I'll just note i've never been in favor of shackles think they somewhat run contrary to the system. Re: difficulty, from what I've played on beta the difficulty feels right to too hard at appropriate levels, depending how deep you go.

Above options are suggestions while maintaining the shackles at current reduction

[mystic rose]

I find shackles the only thing stopping al's from making 90% of the guild too easy

[raven bane]

I dont think AL can trivialize 90% of infinite progression.

Particularly when for any given anguish level you can get gear that is a 3% boost - effecitviely equivalent to 3 AL. At the high end that would be the expedient option IMO

[fierce cedar]

i really dont think thats a problem

it makes a good polemic but if the choice is go or dont go.. im going

(to the next anguish lvl)

[sinful vapor]

You'd want to go to the next one eventually but ang 5 is either less rewards or less power/slower

So you just farm at ang4 unless you want your progress to take longer and require more grinding of anguished gear

Once I eventually get to ang5 in a few months I'll try shackled but like... if the choice is "artificially hinder myself in order to grind anguished gear and invest more mats" vs "keep farming as is on ang4", there's a pretty gppd chance farming at ang4 will be the correct choice

If the intent is that only those looking for a challenge will progress normally, I guess that's what we have

[livid sonnet]

if you're low AL, i don't think the benefit/hurt is that big right?

[jaunty tide]

I don't usually post on here, but as someone who has just hit Anguish lv 5 with Melancholy, I gotta say, that asc lv 8 shackle hit hard, especially since I went into Anguish 2.0 blindly and didn't even know about the existence of shackles.

As an AL 50 player, I was enjoying the steady increase of difficulty and the ability to add difficulty modifiers to the dungeon experience. It felt very dynamic and having to choose between some difficult modifiers was quite challenging.

I at first took the shackle with stride, enjoying the unique challenge it posed. But then I quickly realized that I could farm proofs faster on Anguish 4... which made farming at Anguish 5 feel... irrelevant.

[severe junco]

tbh the shackles only matter if your not able to oneshot anymore when the shackles are applied but i hit for 500k aoe even without asc lvls id prob roughly hit for 400k

at least in dungeons

world farming i also cant see it being much of a problem

[livid sonnet]

what's your AL?

[severe junco]

only for raids/towers

52

[umbral blaze]

This sounds like DUrsa numbers

[severe junco]

heretic actually

[livid sonnet]

nice

[umbral blaze]

Ah, sigil stormflask

[livid sonnet]

i deal 100k at al27 with just Despair Aoe, and mag,mag++ and t.mag+++

so i have skill issues xD

where's my trev staff dammit :v

[umbral blaze]

Ara Vestaga, Ara Vesta 3 and Ara Vesta 4 is what every high al heretic is using for towers anyways

[severe junco]

ye i use despair all 3berserk 30%arcane amity tmagic3 and magic1/2 and i have a chance to proc tmagic1 up

and if i need even more dmg snotra

[livid sonnet]

with chimera? and what gives you tmag1?

[severe junco]

my boot has a proc chance for it

and no with either stonewarg for tankyness/ward regen or tmm

for 100% t3magic up

[livid sonnet]

ok

[raven bane]

For a healthy system moving forward, its important that people are incentivized to move to Anguish 2.0 from 1.0, otherwise many giga-ascended people will just sit on 1.0, as they feel it is more efficient. These players would be permanently advantaged by a system that people who switched and newer players will never have access to. If you look at the anguish leaderboards, its pretty clear that many high AL players do not feel it is better to switch. For long term health, 2.0 needs to be the more efficient system.

From my perspective, it is not clear that the new system is more efficient for your time and any point, and thats largely due to the shackles. Even as you gain power and ang levels, your clear speed does not keep up with the rate of increased proofs, as youre locked within a specific power bracket for that particular level.

[fierce cedar]

we were never supposed to go as fast as we did tho

isnt that the point?

[raven bane]

You say that, but base-towers and DM still outclass old anguish progression by a pretty large gap.

[fierce cedar]

that refineries and lvling off anguish was utterly too easy?

[severe junco]

imo what surely should increase in ang 2.0 is the mats/time u get from proofs because rn 1.0 is better for that by a lot which feeds better into the ascencion lvl grind

[raven bane]

Refineries sure, but old anguish does not outpace towers or DM for progression. And DMs just saw a pretty significant buff.

[umbral blaze]

Anguish was actually the more casual friendly way to farm mats fwiw

[fierce cedar]

whatre you ascending for, i wonder, kingdom war & settlement defense?

[raven bane]

Kingdom, Settlement, PVE efficiency, Leaderboard etc

Number go up is actually the main reason

[raven bane]

Agreed, if there was a problem with old anguish, its that it became AFK after a certain point. I think this is already solved through many of the maluses, the HP scaling, and the infintie scaling

[fierce cedar]

its also got 4 new numbers.. and they all go up

[raven bane]

Yeah thats good number go up but AL is also good number go up and its important number go up

[fierce cedar]

im reminded that town hall, citadel, castle, fishing hut dont have number go up 😦

[storm wadi]

Woah now, fishing numbers go up

[umbral blaze]

Fishing number goes up a bit too much

[fierce cedar]

do they?

[storm wadi]

You unlock more numbers at guild level 150.

[fierce cedar]

ganbarimasu!!

(i will try harder!)

[umbral blaze]

I think the main difference between farming old anguish and new anguish is that while yes, at some point the new anguish might become better for the more hardcore players, the old anguish had the benefit of being short content that you spend a couple of minutes on per day and slowly save up for your progression. The more casual people don't have the time nor find it worthwhile to invest into 5 towers and run them daily or spend everything on mnemonics from what I've seen

The only way to balance this would probably be number adjustment for shackled vs unshackled but I'm not confident on providing appropriate numbers so I'll leave it at that

[severe junco]

anguish 2.0 is purely pve with less asc lvl progression which a lot of efficiency area control type of players liked

[raven bane]

Which is why, to an extent, I don't agree with the shackles. To incentivize moving people over anguish either has to be either: A) more efficient than old anguish for passive grind or B) Equal/more effective than towers, at some point, for active grind. Shackles limits the passive grind at 4, and the active grind gets progressively slower to the point that i'm not sure it competes with other active things. Or both, and the shackles hurt both aspects of it.

[storm wadi]

I think ang 2.0 is far better of a time investment for farming proofs than 1.0, considering 1.0 you were limited in how you could earn proofs. The cost to level up is pretty drastic, but the proofs drop quite a bit more compared to before

At least from what ang 4 gives

[raven bane]

At some point high AL players will do a cost-benefits analysis, and I don't think its there yet on either front. Thats before even factoring in large level up costs, cruicible rerolls, demonmaking tools etc.

[severe junco]

to put out some numbers i roughly got 50proofs in 6mins in anguish 1.0 just running horde dungeons at anguish 50

to get back to those numbers id prob first need to farm 100k proofs just to get the same proof chance

if even that

and since i get roughly 1/5th of that rn

[fierce cedar]

each anguish mode can be tuned individually. thats gotta be worth somethjng

[severe junco]

it would take hundreds of hours

just to get back to the same efficiency

[storm wadi]

In Ang 1.0 boss horde, you'd only get proofs from 16-25 which is 10 levels. You'd have to roll 5 bosses each floor and get a guanrateend drop to get 50 proofs

You running ang 50 party horde?

[fierce cedar]

efficiency for efficiency sake is meaningless

[severe junco]

3 dungeons 6mins

2mins/dungeon

roughly

[storm wadi]

ahh that makes sense

[raven bane]

Yeah and for what its worth, I think a lot of high AL players will be clearing in the 80 second range

[severe junco]

ye probably my device/internet isnt even fast and i need to spend 2 more turns than really high asc lvl players just to buff and i prob have a few more misses because of the dex difference

but ye

[raven bane]

but when it turns into, player A can sit on a old system that is x% more efficient and gains x% more AL than me, it becomes a balance issue

I was in favor of just moving the health scaling to old anguish, as I think that would resolve the issue outright.

[umbral blaze]

Orna is mostly a "see number go up" kinda game, so a lot of people will value efficiency for that. Why make number go up slowly when you can make number go up quickly?

[umbral blaze]

I think people would still stick around since:
No maluses
No unshackled penalty
(There's still no Great Monster Aspects in 2.0 shop 😢)

[storm wadi]

Hmm, I'd say that old Ang 1.0 offered nothing to the game. It was just a way to earn things faster. Ang 2.0 at least offers a crafting system and new gear to be explored

[raven bane]

Thats sort of what I'm arguing though, the unshackled penalty is a big reason why this becomes unfeasible. You can never get to a level of low attention play, and the difficulty scaling makes it difficult to ever become more efficient at activie play

[raven bane]

Fully agree that new anguish is much more fun and interesting system, as far as leveling, gearing etc, which is why I think it should be incentivized more.

[woeful raven]

Why everyone thinking to speedrun ang2.0, the shackles design is perfect, if you want full reward just enabled shackles.

[severe junco]

the base system with gear bonus/scaling etc is good, i just dont see the point to artificially nerf the reward for other things in the game ie mats etc while the primary target was to make the content hard and challenging and also to make the progression way to slow for what? just make the content hard and let people play at the anguish lvl that they can play at why is there a need to farm proofs to lvl it up anyways?

[woeful raven]

With a set of ang4 equipment, it will not be a problem.

[raven bane]

Ultimately comes down to efficiency not feasbility, its clear that a lot of players dont think it is currently worth it, even in the long run

[umbral blaze]

Yeah, I just hope it's tweaked a bit more so that while it doesn't become full afk farming like ang 1.0, it also doesn't take ages to reach the level associated to your ascension level

[raven bane]

Personally, I think certain maluses, the positive falloff, status and the more HP really solve this already, hard to become full AFK unless you really outleveled the content

On beta I tested Anguish 40, with Ang 70 range character, and it was not something feasible to AFK.

[storm wadi]

Agreed. Which is the beauty of ang 2.0, the system will balance itself after so many anguish levels. The shackles are just an unnecessary roadblock

[naive lynx]

I honeslty think its worth getting. Was at beta 45-50 in dungeons and could clear at AL93. But getting there now would take forever. To get what I would normally get at ang50 1.0 even would take me months on end probably. Thats just dungeons alone

[severe junco]

i think if people play for efficiency the best way to farm is still probably the highest difficulty that you can afk and 1shot everything because those 2 things tend to align

[raven bane]

In Ang 1.0, I could power myself up to always 1-shot a fallen realmshifter, not exactly the case in 2.0 and will require active play.

[raven bane]

Definitely could clear, but couldnt AFK even with 50 more levels. And was it more efficient than current? I dont think so.

[severe junco]

if you play to get higher and challenge yourself then efficiency will suffer regardless

[naive lynx]

It will be at the higher end when your proofs are 100% and it takes me the same time as it would around 25 etc. BUT to get there is a long time and again 93 beta als vs 50 and im sitting at 105 now

[severe junco]

unless rewards scale non linear but more in an exponential fashion which imo is bad as that would just make the strong wayyyyy stronger

[woeful raven]

Just my opinion, i think current 2.0 is good, because now it looks like conqueror, more invest = more earning, al will not overrun everything.

[raven bane]

I'm having difficulty envisioning an anguish where you can get 100% proof and clear in <3minutes, which is effectively the anguish 1 benchmark.

[woeful raven]

It means you need to invest ang equipment early as conqueror invest on othersoul.

[naive lynx]

ALs are the endgame though. For us to even make us of them now would take most over a year

[umbral blaze]

I think most people will just wait to find what class, gear and strategy can be used to afk farm at certain anguish levels, I doubt that there's absolutely no malus combination that can still let you afk farm

[raven bane]

A bit off topic but conqueror hits a cap relatively early, just fyi. I'm not saying anguish 2.0 wont get better, I just dont think the curve ever hits the 1.0 benchmark,.

[naive lynx]

Mine were about 3-4 mins a run. you could net easily over 30 proofs at 100% in those 4 minutes vs say about 6 dungeons now at almost 2 minutes for the same. and less buffing etc

[raven bane]

In Anguish 1.0 I can clear 2 dungeons in about 3 mins, which averages 30 proofs. Its just rough to say, you need to grind for a very long time and SPEND a lot of proofs for a system that might be close to the old system could give afk.

[naive lynx]

im talking 2.0. Agreed 1.0 is more efficient rn sorry

[raven bane]

Understood, but yeah thats what I'm getting at. I'm not sure if 2.0 even approaches 1.0 on the high end.

In the beta we were also easily able to make perfect gear,

[naive lynx]

Honestly the prices need to come down or the shackles need a rework. I dont mind the shackles but dear lord ang 5 costing over 500...Like man im looking at over 3k just to get over ang10

If its infinite the big people are going to hit a stopping point regardless of shackles. I think mine was around 30 something in beta. Thats months before i get to use what I worked hard for over years

Just to level it up, let alone neeing to buy tools etc

[severe junco]

here i computed some cost left is cost for the next lvl in proofs middle is anguish lvl and right is the summed up total

[raven bane]

With current cost also difficult to see a time my anguish catches up to AL, given the lead it has

[severe junco]

this is a rough estimate

in price

[naive lynx]

104k proofs to just get to a high AL comfy zone where things actually get difficult is asanine

[raven bane]

I get to play at my current AL at Ang 70 lol

[naive lynx]

The raid update though is mint

[naive lynx]

Which will take years lol

Unless you go straight dungeons everyday every minute

[raven bane]

And in years I might be a bit higher AL 🙂

[livid sonnet]

will it change that instead of 3 ALs was higher? like 5? 10?

[naive lynx]

Can't spend proofs on mats, you need to lvl the guild

[raven bane]

I do think the raid change was great change in right direction. Even at low Ang, can see how it eventually becomes efficient compared to old system. And it is something we only would have had felling proofs from before

[naive lynx]

Honestly I think the shackles should scale. With your current ALs like a slider. You can decide how much shackle you want for a loss of reward. Max reward at the lowest but say I wanna like 3/4 my power is get so much less but not like nothing at all. If ya know what I mean?

It'd allow people to get over that absurd hump without deciding to suffer immensely with less efficiency vs getting almost no reward

[grave fulcrum]

disagree with despair as that would make some events more profitable in t6-8 on hoa or more profitable for the dragon event so toooo easy of a grind there

[naive lynx]

There's a fine line somewhere where the anguish gear kicks in more and the shackles don't hurt as much

[mystic rose]

Raid proofs feel too good now imo, if all material prices are staying the same

[livid sonnet]

i couple of days i go, I tried some Unshackled/Shackled, but it wasn't very well received 😛

[naive lynx]

Do we know how much it keeps up scaling? I'm at 3 and getting around 10-15 average

[naive lynx]

Most it seems don't want shackled. The rewards just aren't there for it tbh. The pricing the way it is will slow down most anyway lol

And builds start changing fairly quickly. Like I can't swansong afk after like 10 lol

[mystic rose]

Ang 9

[livid sonnet]

yeah that's a problem that will occur as people were so used to "I can spam 25 dungeons a. day and get 1000 proofs, so that's like 1 million mats 😛

[raven bane]

YEah, this looks a little high, but on one hand, Raids do have a defined limit as far as scrolls.

I wouldnt be opposed to drops like this later down the road, as its really the only thing ive seen comparative to old system

How long did ang 9 raid take you

[grave fulcrum]

think about the cost to time amount tho how expencive is it for the next level

[naive lynx]

I'd like to get to Ang 1.0 proof rate with an okay time and then have difficulty spike to get extra after. You can get what you did before with some work but if you want those extra prepare to work hard

[raven bane]

(and still towers and dms definitely do exceed old anguish and are still available)

[naive lynx]

Kinda in the middle for both, but the efficiency thing will always exist

[mystic rose]

A defined limit that is very high. Raids aren't exactly hard to farm a lot of

[fierce cedar]

if you try to do a cost to time analysis, you have to also remember this isnt a free market system, there is an all powerful entity controlling how much time things should cost

[naive lynx]

Towers with proofs are still the best mat ratio and probably even more so with adding extra proofs to it lol

Raid proofs now though are probably juicy

For mats

[mystic rose]

Way too fast with the new proof rate imo. Already almost to ang 10 for it, and I just hit 9

[severe junco]

those raid drops do be looking fine

[livid sonnet]

well i can't really have. an opinion in this matter tbh, not a hardcore player :c

[raven bane]

I think DMs are better than towers on an hour basis. Definitely think it has potential to exceed old towers with new system, but again, Ang 4 2.0 is less than I was earning 1.0 and anythign post that will be considerably slower.

[raven bane]

I mean per raid. Couple minutes?

[fierce cedar]

i have lots of opinions, and am lvl restrained (al 19)

[mystic rose]

Per raid, less than a min

[grave fulcrum]

yah im aware thats why im saying think about cost to time spent that changes the viablility for how many proofs can/should be given vs amount of time to kill and gain. if the game is too grindy players will stop playing if the game is too rewarding players will get bored of the progression rate and in tern stop wanting to play theres a happy medium somewhere

[livid sonnet]

yeah but someone that farms this game 20 hours a day and someone that plays 10-30 minutes it's way different playerbase xD

[fierce cedar]

just saying your opinion is valid you dont gotta go calling me a no-lifer :-[

[livid sonnet]

not calling you a no-lifer tho 😛

[fierce cedar]

oh. did i just assume and self identify.. nvm

[timber furnace]

At that point you win a lot of proofs tbh

[timber furnace]

I forgot that HoA existed tbh

[timber furnace]

See, people haven't even tested anguish 4+ to know that it gives way more proofs

[raven bane]

tbf, this change happened today, most were tested on beta

[timber furnace]

|| I'm still at 4 in Towers||

[broken pike]

Raids were the only thing increased

[timber furnace]

I think that other paths(except despair) would have the same increase of proofs(proof acquisition,not number per enemy)in higher lvels

[raven bane]

I mean even right now Ang 4 raids are fairly efficient, its not the leveling up that made it reasonable its today's changes.

[mystic rose]

Raids are absolutely too good right now imo

[naive lynx]

Leave em honestly. You get to a certain point where they are VERY strong and hard and one ult away from death. It slows down tremendously. I think Ang 25-30 they started to roast me on beta at AL93. Was easy until they ult lol

[languid adder]

Welcome to Anguish 2.0 XD

[livid sonnet]

it makes honor to the name :v

[naive lynx]

Yeah that's wild though lol. I'm cool with it, just kinda complaining lol. Need to get past the begining hump honestly

[languid adder]

well, its currently not at all considering people got powerful before ang 2.0, it only cares about people that just started ascending; i just hope this gets addressed.

the fact rewards go from 18% to less then 1% for me fron 4 to 5 is a good indicator of what i mean
A level should NEVER give less rewards then the rest

mobs get more powerful & anguish drops decrease does not really function.

[sinful vapor]

It sounds like shackles should just be extra rewards to reward those willing to take on extra difficulty

The current design of cost/reward assumes shackles are the default state

[fierce cedar]

t8-9 dont ascend

so chances are good once you turn 225 that ascension will be 0 and anguish will be 5

[sinful vapor]

I guess I see the issue with this

[fierce cedar]

see sid's message above it

i guess i dont get it, or am OK with the system being power capped

i dont see how they could balance anything without that

like, everyone who played in the old anguish system, had access to essentially free extra loot.. i just swap the slider to max and i get 2x orns from goblin king bosses in deep dungeon, but he still has <12k hp

well i dont remember how much x it was

[sinful vapor]

I think the only way to make shackles work like extra rewards is to rework them like this:

• Shackles are now a slider, allowing you to set exactly what AL you'd like to be shackled to.
• Each ang level would have a baseline or recommended AL, similar to the current shackle system.
• Your rewards depend on how low you set your ALs. E.g. at Anguish 1, you would get less rewards than normal by allowing any ALs at all, getting less and less the more ALs you allowed.
• On the other hand, setting yourself to AL 0 at ang50 would give a lot more rewards than baseline for that level.
• Each level's rewards would be based on that baseline AL level, with upper and lower bounds to the range of rewards. You obviously wouldn't get 1000x more rewards for doing AL0 at ang50.

This would also allow for crazy challenges like 0ALs at anguish 100

With a shackles system like this, higher AL players are not penalized more for having more unshackled ALs. They choose how low to set their own shackles

[timber furnace]

Whats the cost of crucibles in your anguish store??

Trying to know if is better to buy crucibles now at anguish 4 or lvel up to anguish 10

[mystic rose]

54 proofs at lvl 11 anguish

[timber furnace]

So it's definitely better to lvel up, thanks

[naive lynx]

I like this, that is all lol

[mystic rose]

Now that I think about it, I don't know if it increased at all after I leveled. It might only increase when shop restocks

[timber furnace]

It increases

I'm lvel 5 right now(raids can kill me now, this is so unbalanced ) and it increased from 49 to 50

[short osprey]

Now the real grind begins 💀

[nimble dawn]

is monument better than towers for proof?

towers seems okay enough but I havent tested monuments

[short osprey]

I've been purely towers

Tried 1 monument around level 3 iirc and got little to non as there was just so few packs with anymore than two T10 mobs

Towers at level 4 I was getting ~60-70 per 50 floor, picking up every T10 encounter (strays included)

[timber furnace]

Monuments are a very bad source, but it makes sense because you can't die, although the important thing are the proofs

[sinful vapor]

You can 100% die in monuments

[bronze plinth]

Yea

[timber furnace]

You don't lose the monument iirc

[sinful vapor]

You do

[timber furnace]

Really???

[sinful vapor]

Yes, but not in exploration dungeons

Goblin fortress/mystic caves

You may be thinking of those

[timber furnace]

I was pretty sure you can't die, but turns out I confused it with fleeing, then event mobs should grant proof of torment in monuments

[livid sonnet]

monuments do not give any sort of proof?

[mystic rose]

Monuments give same proofs as towers. Just have less t10 mobs, so less chances for proofs

[sinful vapor]

#💡│suggestions message

[full peak]

Anyone picked "Permanent status effect fade chance"? With 1% the buffs dissapear VERY quickly. Even several times during single run, it feels more like 10%. You are usually not able to fully buff yourself with basic buffs and they are gone.

[umbral blaze]

Apparently the 1% rolls for each enemy hit rather than per turn, so it's very bad when you're using aoe

[opal atlas]

I chose it, it disappears not so frequently

[obsidian jackal]

By curiosity does this also applies when it's your follower attacking ?

[umbral blaze]

No clue but I'd assume not, since stuff like lugus gauntlets or other temp buffs are not affected by follower attacking as well

[obsidian jackal]

So if all you do is only buffing, you'll never get unbuffed ?

[tacit ridge]

I avoid that malus like the plague because it rolls per enemy, so it stacks up fast

[languid adder]

Which is great if we pretend people who grinded before the introduction of anguish 2.0 dont exist and would not like to fight at a fraction of their power for hundreds of hours before they are eligible again to be fully rewarded for their grind again

[umbral blaze]

You will definitely get unbuffed, just that it'll count as 1 enemy like it does with lugus gauntlets

[snow sage]

Agony is easy farm it seems

[full peak]

I was getting 4-10 from lower tiers, from T10 I got up to 14 proofs. As drop, then +1 as reward ofc.

Agony is ....really easy to farm. 😄

Mhm, even +15 pre kill

And that was low tier, so it probably doesn't matter.

[languid adder]

Just wait till your shackles hit and work at like 15% speed/rewards

But yeh in current state raids are fun! Since scrolls are a limited resource, while all others are available 24/7 (if you're willing to move) i get that its a bit easier to aqquire proofs, but its a bit higher then i imagined it to be. Isn't necessarily bad tho

Because it may seem high at 1 right now, but with how the rates scale, youll still need hours on hours on anguish 10, and even longer on more

[livid sonnet]

i'll never take the perma buffs malus xDD, i'll rather have 1000% less damage :v

[mystic rose]

Def don't need that long. I went from ang 8 to 13 for raids just yesterday

[storm wadi]

I chose it.. twice. I was losing a buff every 2-3 turns against a titan, it was very annoying. Definitely felt like more than 2% but could've just been bad rng

[valid mesa]

Hello, does -X% multi-target damage on anguished modifiers affect summons ?

[cunning glade]

Question if I use this gear on anguis level 1 or 3 the alternate stats are not applicable?
Or what exactly the #2 mean?

[storm wadi]

You should get the full bonuses in ang 3 but in ang 1 they'll be reduced to their ang1 version (probably)

[livid sonnet]

why does he has a Hp + 927 that's the bonus one right?

[cunning glade]

That's why I asking to make sure

[livid sonnet]

the #2 means the anguish gear level, so 2, but i guess that in-battle or whatever, when you are at lower Anguish, it will lower a little bit

i would say it will also affect the bonus effect tho

[grave fulcrum]

The bonus effect as in passive?

[mystic rose]

The extra crucible/anguish effect doesn't change as anguish level changes, far as I know

[timber furnace]

That's what I don't like, the effects doesn't increase after certain lvels, some could increase until a max %

[raven bane]

I think percentage ones are probably fine but flat values should increase.

[supple cape]

Is there any plan to allow for dismantling anguished equipment to feed back into the anguish economy? Something like dismantling for proofs, or maybe dismantling for some sort of [anguish dust] or something that can be redeemed for demonworking tools/anguished crucible/etc. at certain quantities.

Got my second useless anguish drop in some monument spam and this sort of thing came to mind.

[weak steeple]

Its a cool idea - you should make a suggestion for it

[languid adder]

Yeah please make a suggestion, i would love that!
A system the monumental guild already has so i cant even see this beeing hard to implement ^~^

[weak steeple]

Ill link it in the ORN feedback thread once you make it

[supple cape]

Sure, wasn't sure if that sort of thing had already been thought of.

[weak steeple]

Thanks!
#1379141724902920244 message

[ancient raven]

as someone who hates dismantling ornates, I might suggest this shifts to "remove all anguish from gear"

[storm wadi]

Wondering.. does Demonworking a non-anguished item pull the current stats of the gear and add them as anguished? Negative attack isn't a default of that head piece

[mystic rose]

It includes the stats added by adorns

[storm wadi]

That HAS to be a bug right? 😦

Otherwise that's some annoying thing to consider. My adorns added nothing of value to anguish stats

[mystic rose]

Also means you can turn negative stats into positive with adorns. But it could be

[storm wadi]

Hoping it is, otherwise I just gimped my crown. Does lead to some interesting busted ideas using pinions

[mystic rose]

This way I don't have to take a big mana hit from the staff. But my hp hit does still keep getting bigger with each ang level

[timber furnace]

Some adorns are great for the anguish scaling, others are just bad, like lyncus Bristles

[storm wadi]

Yea.... Can't imagine what that would look like with ashen pinions

[supple cape]

TBH, that is fine too and keeps with the theme of my "what if?".

So long as the useless anguish items can be more than a wasted proc then it works out.

[timber furnace]

• Als

[upper pendant]

Any idea what the chance to get a passive on gear using demonworking tools?

[mystic rose]

You use a crucible for the extra bonus

[upper pendant]

I see and how many bonuses can an item have? It looks like some can have multiple but maybe I'm reading those item pages wrong

[mystic rose]

You can have one bonus. Use another crucible, and it'll roll a new bonus onto the item

[upper pendant]

Okay cool. I think I get it now. Thank you!

[short osprey]

Actually making that head piece Ang1 and not any higher is perfect as now you can get a bonus passive on it with a crucible, "+accuracy" or "+pet act" would be perfect imo (obviously depending on the build you use it for)

[storm wadi]

So the extra passive will work but not the alt stats? That's interesting

[short osprey]

Ward, foresight, and crit are the only "base stats" not affected by Anguish gear levels

[peak spade]

And dex 🫠

[sinful vapor]

I'm curious about vd since it shows up as an anguished stat

Look at all these stats

[glass mango]

The vd is from the weapon itself

[sinful vapor]

But ward still isn't seen there

Or crit

Why is vd and other stuff

[short osprey]

It seems Ward, Foresight, and Crit don't show up there but all other stats + bonuses do

As for why...

[sinful vapor]

I think a clearer display would just be the additional stats

Surely that can't be too hard to code...

https://tenor.com/view/fingers-crossed-hoping-i-wish-gif-15067156

#💡│suggestions message

[indigo halo]

Has anyone tested the Raid proofs vs raid anguish level? what's the most proofs you've gotten now? I've gotten 9 at anguish raid level 1. This was a GREAT improvement, thanks devs!

[mystic rose]

Too many imo. 24 is what I remember at 15 ang

That's with 35.5% proof chance, I haven't chosen 2% proof at every level

[bronze plinth]

Looks solid when comparing to increasing costs

While the speed is getting slower and slower

Now i might actually farm agony

As solo player i do love odie now

Wheres my mara's ring

[storm wadi]

I'm very much regretting choosing this. I'm dropping so many buffs with just 2%, the upkeep is pretty annoying

Feels like 1 every turn sometimes

[glass mango]

Pathspur it

[languid adder]

Konq is the reason the server lags when he opens his keep confirmed

Day X of hoping anguish 5 will not give less rewards then 4 unshackled

[naive lynx]

It doesn't give less rewards. Just less efficient without the proper builds lol

Disregard saw unshackled. Otherwise probably not gonna happen

[languid adder]

I would argue that is much less!
No level should ever give less then the previous... Scaling should go off of the base values of 4.

If i dont shackle, enemy stats still increase by 20%, but rewards get reduced by about 95%.

I dont see the logic behind that.

Until this is fixed, cause there is no way this could be intentional, i refuse to progress past 4, as its lose-lose, no matter what. ^^"

[upbeat latch]

I saw the raid proofs were buffed. Any word if dungeons will as well?

[storm wadi]

Probably not. The rate for melancholy is pretty good already by ang 4

[upbeat latch]

Well darn. It's painful pre-4

[sinful vapor]

It's not too terrible

[livid sonnet]

if i recall my Ang 1.0 beginnings correctly, it was way worse before

maybe we got used to getting 50 proofs per dungeon 😛

[nocturne night]

Pretty sure you never got more than 15 on average

[old aspen]

I love the new system. Really enjoying the grind and the new modifiers.

What I don’t like is I feel as a long time player, I am reset back to the t8 dark age of the game with the anguish grind. I wish there was some check within the anguish system to ease my grind to actually get to the harder content.

For example, I as a long time player, have already run 10k dungeons. That is about (on a conservative rough estimate) 10 floors of at teir foes, with 3 mobs on each floor. And I didn’t hit t10 till 3k dungeons.

That is 210,000 chances at proofs, which at a 10% chance at dropping is 21k proofs on average.

That is about 19 levels of anguish tokens at the current economy. Assuming the 110 start cost and the additional 110 cost that is added per level

I am not asking to skip anything. But I want to get to the deep anguish, as at 75ish als I am ready for more challenges then what anguish + shackles can do. I feel as I have lost all progress as a highly invested player to challenging content with the new anguish systems

(Sorry for the wall of text)

[viscid belfry]

Quick question. Is it normal for me to be getting Anguish 1 drops while running a Great Momument on Anguish 2?

[sinful vapor]

Yes

There is a chance to get lower anguish lvl items

[viscid belfry]

Got it. Thanks @sinful vapor

[mighty drum]

So I’m assuming using a demon working tool won’t stack on any current bonuses from the chart that people have already gotten? I ask this because I see no change in dex, hp, mana, or crit. With the only other two known possibilities on the chart being for sight or pet act.

[umbral blaze]

You need to use a crucible on it to get a bonus

[mighty drum]

Ok so you don’t just get a bonus to start, I read that tool as it replacing a current affect but that makes sense, thanks

[umbral blaze]

If the item naturally dropped anguished, it'll have a bonus, if you anguished it using a tool, it won't and you'll need to use a crucible

[left mauve]

I just discovered we cant duo a raid if one if the member is lower ang level than the raid itself.

[nocturne night]

There's not exactly an easy solution to that

[left mauve]

it suxx for party play with friends. Wouldnt it be possible to scale down the ang level of the raid to match the lowest ang of players ?

[nocturne night]

Not really, because that allows for downscaling a raid's anguish level, which is something NF does not want to do

The other way around, boosting the lowbie to the high anguish, would allow players to skip ahead of anguish levels, which is also undesireable

[left mauve]

why ? i mean, the player who spawned the raid just loose the opportunity to play it as he wanted initially.
Downscaling the raid to duo bring 0 benefit

also having to duo to downscale would bring its part of punishement, since famed+ item would become less available

||damn sorry for my english, i'm home sick and tired af, english is complicated for me atm 💀 ||

[sinful vapor]

That really sucks. This is something the community overwhelmingly voted for. What's the reasoning

[left mauve]

its a huge bummer honestly, i want to spawn a bunch of raids to farm my anguish, but i also want to help a returning friend to farm some finesses

but since i cant know what will spawn, gotta just throw randomly

[granite cove]

You can set it to 1, and both will do one, and then you can scale them up as well. They can also throw down at level 1.

[left mauve]

so in my case, friend dont want to play Ang2.0 for the moment (ca't really blame him), so that would be ang0 in any case

and what do you mean by "and then yiu can scale them up as well" ?

Problem is the same with lower tier player. if i spawn lets say 200 scroll ang 5, got 20 third horseman left i would like to share with a lower tier/level friend to help them with their VD loadout, i just cant

[raven bane]

if u need someone to get rid of horseman lemme know

[left mauve]

well i actually have around 20 to offer to anybody in need

[raven bane]

Ang 5?

[left mauve]

(ang 0, all there from previous Amorri megafarm)

[raven bane]

Ah

[mossy wave]

why do I need to remove adorns for demon working tools? it does take any slots away right?

[storm wadi]

You dont need to. It'll upgrade with the adorns

[nocturne night]

I am not the studio and cannot answer for them

[mossy wave]

so the description is wrong 😆

[thin storm]

Happy that we don't have to unadorn equipment to use it ngl

[timber furnace]

Yes, that's the best part

[magic pilot]

As someone in T8 still, what should I be doing with the new Circle of Anguish content? I activated the first path already (before fully reading thru everything) and accumulated just 10 tokens of despair so far.

[fierce cedar]

lvl it up!

free exp/orn

[magic pilot]

don't I need 100 tokens + full set of level 1 anguished gear for that?

[fierce cedar]

i mean, yea, but you cant get past lvl 5 til you hit tier 10

and there isnt anything to spend the tokens on except lvling up til then really, since no ascension til t10 too

[languid adder]

1% and 1 needed vs 10% and 110 needed, its slightly harder, but in comparison for old anguish where the amount of proofs scaled linear with level up cost and you basically needed the effort every time, the effort required to level up in the rework is steadily and sharply increasing

[upbeat latch]

How do you increase anguished gears level?

[mystic rose]

Demonworking Tools from the guild shop

[upbeat latch]

Thanks!

[prisma vine]

@paper void #💡│suggestions message
Here is a suggestion for you 🙂

[nocturne night]

Please do not ping odie for suggestions

Not to mention odie is very aware of that suggestion in specific

#1369690605835387040 message

[left mauve]

reward are the same 👌

[bronze plinth]

agony proof drop was buffed

[analog fox]

I'm not a fan of the shackles and just staying on Ang 4. It pretty much invalidates all the work I put in for als and the rewards are not worth the struggle of going from 120 als to 8 als for 2% more proofs while the content gets 20% harder. While each additional anguish I gain 3% stats that I already grinded for.

Imo if ALs are the problem to be solved by 2.0. I think we should cap them at 100 which is a fair place and people with more than 100 can get 100 in more than one class.

[weak steeple]

Ive captured that one in ORN feedback

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1379141724902920244

[analog fox]

I'm 120 als and I want it capped which would solve this shackle problem.

Plus I don't there there are many right now that could get 100 in every class currently. Next year I'm sure they could get 100 in every class especially for the lucky souls that are still able to grind on anguish 1.0

[languid adder]

Or lowering your rewards much below what was 4 which is something i still dont understand by this day.

[languid adder]

Im so glad it got in there now! ❤️

[short osprey]

#💡│suggestions message

[tacit ridge]

Being able to grind on 1.0 is an issue imo. It’s poised to become the next “infinite refinery” situation. If Ang1.0 was deemed as too profitable by the studio, then allowing people to stay on it doesn’t make much sense, as it will inevitably create huge disparities between people in either system

Making every mat available for a few days to allow people to spend their remaining proofs and then changing everyone over would be the ideal solution imo

[weak steeple]

Have most of the guys in It burns opted to stay 1.0 because you can grind mats faster?

Hoping to capture this in a suggestion somehow

[tacit ridge]

I think most of us changed. But you just need to check the anguish leaderboard to get an idea since it shows people from both systems

[raven bane]

I switched but 100% for fun factor. As far as efficiency I'm not sure its currently the right choice

[sinful vapor]

I think it's pretty clear that anguish 1.0 would be more efficient for most people that care. They're already at ang50 there and already reap that level of rewards

Why would they go back down to 1 and regrind ang levels to regain their level of rewards in a system that is both slower and less rewarding

The only reasons are for fun (the challenge) and FOMO I guess

[fierce cedar]

can we get the same crew who got path of angst drops upped for raids to do world farm next?

[weak steeple]

Do you guys have any data on the ang1.0 vs ang2.0 AL progression speed?
Is it just an immediate thing or do you all think long term ang1.0 is still faster ALs

[weak steeple]

I dont disagree I think that one is a bit low

Drop a /suggestion and I can link it to the feedback thread

[bronze plinth]

it 100% will be faster bc you get proofs much faster in old system

and rewards scale much faster imo

[weak steeple]

Do you? The agony path atm is pretty quick proofs

[broken pike]

I haven't swapped. Not for the AL/mat gains, but I agree ang 1.0 is a huge advantage over 2.0 and is going to be an issue if it is not removed in the next month or two. Even that long is giving a massive advantage

I just want my great aspects so

[granite cove]

I just had an excellent idea for ending 1.0 while leaving it open to spend proofs, turn off 1.0 proof gains, and problem solves itself.

[bronze plinth]

yea agony gives proofs decently, but raiding gets much slower the deeper in anguish you go

[weak steeple]

^ thats a separate issue thats included in the feedback already. The jump from ang4 to ang5

[broken pike]

Shh. I need like 600 great aspects, don't turn off the proof gains lol. Honestly making 1.0 HP scaling would push more ppl to 2.0 imo

I was surprised to see it stay on dex scaling

[weak steeple]

So suggest hp scaling on ang1.0?

[broken pike]

It did win the vote 🤷🏻‍♂️

I was going to go to 2.0 because HP scaling looked rough at 50 ang. Of course I could run 30 or 40 still and have it be better than 2.0, but I likely would have just jumped over

[weak steeple]

Thanks for that feedback I didnt even realize. Added to the feedback post

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1379141724902920244

Heres the list I've been putting together

[umbral blaze]

Add great monster aspects to 2.0 shop before HP scaling is implemented to 1.0

[broken pike]

Anguish 2.0 slows AL leveling too since it's a mat burning machine. Or so it seems. Also kind of just not a fun mechanic at this point imo. I think a lot of longer term players are kind of past that massive continuous grind when they have been playing so long, but that's just my opinion on that.

[storm wadi]

It's not that bad on the mats so far. Maybe if I was trying to anguish all my gear, but for now it's just been the most useful items

[weak steeple]

Can you make a suggestion for this?

[umbral blaze]

Wrecked already made one like a week ago I think

[weak steeple]

If someone could link i can add to the feedback

[storm wadi]

As far as proofs go, the biggest hit I've noticed so far is in tower shards. I'm stuck at 9% gains from ang 4 compared to running them on ang 22 with 1.0. I am getting far more proofs now with 2.0 running towers though, but the tradeoff isn't really worth it

[broken pike]

Has any ORN asked odie why it was removed? I know knight made a bug report on it. I know there's 4 different proofs, but even having great aspects show up randomly in the mat rotation would be better than not having them at all

[weak steeple]

Theres a lot going on sometimes we miss stuff

[sinful vapor]

I believe this will be worth it in the long run, but idk how much the scaling difficulty will impact this

[broken pike]

That would solve the 4 different proofs and needing to choose 1 specifically to buy the aspects or requiring it be bought with x amount of each

[weak steeple]

Odie has also been busting his ass fixing things and pumping releases so we been trying not to throttle him with a ton of feedback atm. Plan is to just consolidate stuff in a feedback post for him to read when hes able

[umbral blaze]

#💡│suggestions message okay, it's not exactly asking for aspects in 2.0 but just adding farmable aspects in any guild

[fierce cedar]

#💡│suggestions message

#💡│suggestions message

#💡│suggestions message

I couldn't find one right now but Im sure there are many, a way to break up the monotony of world farm

i know, we have more mobs than ever. but for example, having 4 mobs in an area for an hour (vagrant beasts, mimic etc) is a really nice change of pace

if monsters were weighted to spawn with a theme around each player, which isnt nullified by chaos scroll but enhanced, I think it would give more anticipation.

[sinful vapor]

Regarding shackles:
#💡│suggestions message
#💡│suggestions message

[broken pike]

Yeah. The 4 different proofs in ang guild may be a reason it was removed, but idk. They could randomly be put in the mat rotation of all the proofs, require X amount of each proof to buy, or just put them in a different guild. I never understood why they weren't in the travelers guild tbh lol

[sinful vapor]

I don't think we can simply invert shackles to be +rewards for extra difficulty. That would mean players with no ALs are at a disadvantage

[weak steeple]

Yeah I have the shackles one captured. That one is known and is being watched

[severe junco]

Imo unshackled ang5+ proof chance should just be ang 4 chance + (expected al/actual al) × chance increase so lets say proof chance 20% at 4 for instance then when ur at al 100 it would be .2 + (8/100) × .02 for anguish 5

6 would be .2 + 11/100 × .04 etc

[tacit ridge]

I think it’ll be hard to have it be more efficient than 1.0 because of the shackles. You will get to a point where you get more proofs per dungeon, but you’ll be taking more than double the time to clear them. Raids are the notable exception right now, but even those should get progressively harder to kill as shackles kick in and enemy stats increase

[storm wadi]

I think the idea was that anguished levels on weapons would help with shackles, but yea right now 2.0 is just slower

[short osprey]

But it needs to be viewed less as "proof drop chance" and more so as "proofs/min", At AL100+ going down to AL8 for only a .2 increase in proofs when enemies still get +20% stats/other maluses is not worth it, and likely wouldn't ever be worth it, essentially still punishing high AL players for wanting to use their ALs

[raven bane]

Imo:

1. At reasonable agony levels comparable to old anguish efficiency, but added scroll cost
2. Melancholy less efficient as it slows too much as rates go up
3. Towers are less efficient overall.
4. World farming less efficient.

New anguish also loses out on some orn farming methods such as goblin forts. Less ability to farm orns in melancholy dungeons generally than old anguish. And a lot more time and proof cost need to be sunk into 2.0 to be comparable

[tacit ridge]

Note that 2.0 being less efficient is not inherently bad (it was one of the goals of the change after all). Allowing 2 different systems to exist at once is an issue though

[raven bane]

Imo the problem with old anguish was it can be highly efficient and low attention. New anguish should be more rewarding to A) encourage the switch B) reward active play, C) keep up with other meta farming methods like DM, tower, etc.

[tacit ridge]

Yea, orn farming for gilgas specifically is suddenly awful, gob forts were a good alternative but they’re now “gone”

[paper void]

Please keep in mind that one of major issues with 1.0 was that is was too efficient - the difficulty to reward ratio was really out of whack imo

there likely won't be a case where we prioritize parity of efficiency between the two versions. Anguish 2.0 should be harder, and it will take some time to unlock all levels fully (please consider level 25 to be the soft max)

[sinful vapor]

What does difficulty mean

Does it include requirement of attention as Geppu pointed out

Bc ang2.0 already has heaps of that

[paper void]

i definitely believe that games that don't require much attention would be easier

[storm wadi]

The efficiency discussion is happening in large part because 1.0 still exists and is providing far more efficient farming. Like others have said, if we all were in 2.0 then the conversation would shift to more balancing 2.0 for everyone

[raven bane]

Too efficient for the afk nature of it, but was beat by other active methods like DM and towers (+/- anguish). I think there's a space for some level of attention calibration in activities, but that should tie into rewards.

[sinful vapor]

I think 2.0 requires enough attention (especially as you go up in levels) that efficiency is in the dumps by default

I guess the data will show this if so

[paper void]

if folk want to stay at 1.0 for now to minmax current rewards, that's fine. they'll only be behind when we migrate to 2.0

[left mauve]

since you're around Odie, i just want to make sure you had a look at Party raiding being a big bummer because of anguished raids #1377194080718553150 message

[paper void]

Allowing raids to change their anguish level post-spawn can lead to a ton of ways to cheese them - it just won't be doable

[left mauve]

cant see a single way to cheese anything with downsizing. if i want to downsize my raids, i just have to change my anguish level then spawn.

[sinful vapor]

Lowering their ang level? How would that be cheesy

[raven bane]

Not sure if this is a considered use case but I would definitely downsize my Phoenix/Morrigan to make them faster

[paper void]

take raid to 1% HP, then downscale level and complete it

[sinful vapor]

Just reset hp when downscaling

Remove all damage

[left mauve]

but anyway, ok.
Maybe a way to play an angusihed raid back to ang 0 then ?

[sinful vapor]

That was actually in my original suggestion for this back in beta

[paper void]

on all raids? what if others are doing them, etc. it's not really that simple

[sinful vapor]

Not sure what "all raids" means

I click a raid at ang lvl5, I press a button on that specific raid to downscale it 1 level

It removes all damage from it, resets it

[severe junco]

Wouldnt that just lead to you loosing out on rewards i get upscaling shouldnt be a thing but downscaling?

[left mauve]

i dont understand what it would achieve. i would 99% an ang 10 raid just to loose all benefit by downscaling it to ang1 for last 1% ?

[paper void]

okay, there is another topic floating around of downscaling automatically as others players party with it. i think we're crossing wires

[sinful vapor]

Ah

[broken pike]

Is there a time frame on 1.0 or is it still tbd?

[sinful vapor]

I think automatic downscaling would be much more difficult, agreed

[paper void]

yeah, it's what i'm jiving about

a button to just nuke a single raid down is much more manageable

[sinful vapor]

Makes more sense for a raid to be manually downscaled prior to party play initiating. I think everyone would enjoy that

[paper void]

get out of here with your data

[left mauve]

it would answer to the need of playing with our friends indeed

[sinful vapor]

I had that saved already 🙂

[short osprey]

New Odie comment SS lets goooo

[sinful vapor]

Also canwepleasechangenaguishleveloutsideourOT

[fierce cedar]

i randomly managed to convince some people to fight world mobs in a party yesterday, and it spawned so many adds (like 7?!)

it was really fun but also the first time ive seen that

(somehow this leads into a req for world farm and despair path but im not sure how)

[paper void]

yes, by vesseling to your OT

[sinful vapor]

It just sucks to wayvessel to someone else's ot and find out "oops, our anguish levels don't match each other/already summoned raids"

"Oh you already summoned your raids at ang5? I'm still at 4"

I guess the downscaling button would help with that, but there's other instances

"Oops I forgot to increase my anguish before porting over"

[paper void]

menu skill issue

[sinful vapor]

I meann

I just can't think of why it's limited to our ot when it impacts party play so much, and we already set the activity anguish level to static

[languid adder]

We had refineries like that for 4 years, we had ang 1 running for years, and most abuse strats are only known for very community active players. the advantage already ravaged too long for a month or two to really matter

[dim jacinth]

just ported with ang6 unshackled and now im stuck in poland with 18 dungeons

[sinful vapor]

Even just making small changes to party composition would hurt anguish party play

"Oh guys let's try a different build" "I'd need to use a pathspur"

See you in an hour I guess

[paper void]

polands not far right? can't you drive across most of europe in like 30 mins?

[languid adder]

As an european, i cast slap on you for that one! XD

[sinful vapor]

How many countries can you slap across, like 3?

[bronze plinth]

i love the fact that eos is a raid boss with anguished gear

[languid adder]

Depends how much my china phone GPS freaks out

[old aspen]

Is there a solution the studio is working on to address shackles feedback or is it a wait and collect data stage?

[pulsar scroll]

I just want to say, since anguish 2.0, I have found new joy in engaging with different content forms. Over the last couple years I have loved the grind of "Pranging", but it is really cool to jump back into some other things as well.

Once again, great job with this NF.

Also...it takes 45 minutes to drive across Europe if there's traffic.

[languid adder]

Its the wait and suffer

[languid adder]

#👋│general message I have terrible news for you.

Baaically, progress to 4, farm proofs, pray, and either go deeper when its a more refined system or just dont play it all together.

[paper void]

Is there a specific point to shackles that you’re looking for my input on?

[mystic rose]

I love the shackles. Thats my feedback on them

[sinful vapor]

I would like to be able to shackle myself lower for even more rewards than the default level/rates

I would also like to be able to shackle myself higher than the default for less rewards than default, but more than fully unshackled

[paper void]

This community loves dichotomy, lol

[sinful vapor]

I think being able to do either would be a great use of the system

Setting exactly what AL I want for exactly the reward level I want

[languid adder]

Probably because this is the most controversial peace of content released to date, as its the only one that devaluates progress.

[mystic rose]

I have not felt any of my progress devalued as I've played this content

[languid adder]

I mostly read "its great as is, i want people to suffer" and "this is a video game, fun please?"

[languid adder]

What asc are you?

[mystic rose]

120

[paper void]

Anguish guild is really for people who have fun in difficulty

Bypassing the difficulty kind of misses the mark imo

And given ascension levels are a required piece of unlocking levels, I feel previous ALs are still respected - that’s 1/3 of the next level requirements nearly skipped

[raven bane]

IMO theres a bit of dissonance on two fronts because:

1. There are a lot of people who want the hard gameplay, but don't like the efficiency falloff from 4-5. This makes a lot of people sit on 4 as the 'efficiency sweetspot' for some time, which is far from an active level of play.
2. People with high-AL want content that tests their character strength, and since Anguish difficulty grows faster, the costs are high, and the AL range is tight, people feel like either their anguish will never catch up with their AL or that their AL have been reduced to 'plot coupons' rather than measures of power

[grave fulcrum]

you could also make it something like reset raid hp if in party create party lobby screen that requires all members able to see the raid to join before being able to decrease anguish lvl or something like a simple screen that says partymember x wants to lower the anguish level to this raid do you agree

[languid adder]

Award for the plot coupons. Great choice of name! <€

[raven bane]

I didn't make it up, its a term people use for things like Stars in Super Mario 64 for example

[languid adder]

Still, it perfectly encapsulates how i feel.

[mystic rose]

I take it as you should probably be this al to clear this content, and anything more you're not being challenged

[languid adder]

We dont complain about the challenge, we complain about that we get nothing in return for dropping our ALs to play it as intended.

[raven bane]

TBH I'm still in favor of halving all proof rates and just keeping unshackled linear while shackled doubles. 6-10% proof rate for t9-10 is more than anyone would have seen at those tiers in Anguish 1, and it removes the jarring feeling when high AL players hit 5 if they just want to play their character while maintaining a relatively healthy economy

[mystic rose]

Had no problems with dropping my als so that the difficulty guild could offer difficulty

[short osprey]

This 100%!!!

[languid adder]

And i also think people are fully aware that we dont complain about the challenge, but they just dont find arguments but "i want you to suffer".
Could be wrong but feels like it

[languid adder]

And neither would any of us if we would get a benefit for the ALs, so we catch up to the difficulty where we belong for the effort and progress we put into the game faster.

[grave fulcrum]

id disagree as anguish 1 for an al 13 is kinda a bit much in horde dungeons on beoh swansong but for an al 13 beoa ang 2 raids are completeable with 1 go theres different difficulties between each content that changes the al required to complete the run (take my words as a grain of salt as ive only got a 100% swansong and dont have trev charms on top of my pumpkinless legs with 75% crit)

[oak axle]

Al in raids mean nothing but time. Al in dungeon can mean incomplete.

[sinful vapor]

The problem is that difficulty is not rewarded - instead, lack thereof is punished

I think the system could be reworked to do a little bit of both

[old aspen]

I would rather lose a gear slot then my ALs

[plush nimbus]

Please, just little by little if it really need some adjust. I truly don't want to see the same cheese issues we had on anguish 1.0 (it was understandable at that time)

[old aspen]

I worked hard for that ish

[languid adder]

A first step would be making 5 never give less rewards then 4.

Even if its just a total 1% increase in rewards, it at least is an incentivise to push.

Gimme 18,1 instead of 18, not 0,98.

[languid adder]

Downvoting thisbis just trolling, Zach. Seriously.

[mystic rose]

No, its not

[plush nimbus]

It is really risky. Give opportunity for unschack path and....people will go for it, for sure.
What is a system where you can go really quickly to high anguish and cheese it via AL ? It's called... Anguish 1.0

[languid adder]

You still get stronger monsters.
Stronger monsters, and less rewards.
Whats your logic defending that.

[fierce cedar]

Is it possible for despair path (world farm) that the monsters that exist in a certain area are not anguished, and I have to work through a queue?

((do you remember when we used to tier-up and there would be a massive curtain if monsters on the LHS of the screen? thats what Im calling a queue))

[plush nimbus]

The anguished gear and so on

[sinful vapor]

The opportunity for unshackled path is already there

It's called ang4

[oak axle]

Look my orn dropped 2/3. That means what I made in one year will bow take me three. I am only playing the game now for pvp. So it sets me back from the original plateau to catch up with the top players.

[languid adder]

If its in regards to the terra event, the area has no anguish, why i cant tell you

[languid adder]

~3% stats for -91% stats.

[oak axle]

I didn't want to be player mainly a farming game.

[raven bane]

TBH I think a lot of the cheesing is resolved through the maluses and HP scaling. As a core concept, this is hard and you can grow to overcome it is a good gameplay loop, so long as people still have to look at the screen.

[short osprey]

Id even be happy with (Theoretically)

Ang5 (shackled) - 18%
Ang5 (unshackled) - 16.5%

Ang6 (shackled) - 20%
Ang6 (unshackled) - 17%

Ang7 (shackled) - 22%
Ang7 (unshackled) - 17.5%

instead of how it's currently:

Ang5 (shackled) - 18%
Ang5 (unshackled) - 1%

Ang6 (shackled) - 20%
Ang6 (unshackled) - 1%

Ang7 (shackled) - 22%
Ang7 (unshackled) - 1%

[paper void]

So, I can make it so that ang bonuses from Ang level 1-4 are exempt from shackling

I do think we'll be back to conversation as it won't really make an efficiency change, but if the curve feels better, then cool

[raven bane]

So just shackling the growth? I think a lot would be happy with that

[sinful vapor]

I'm not sure I understand what "exempt from shackling" means

[plush nimbus]

That's not how I see it. I see anguish 2.0 as a stairway. Sometimes you ll face a stair you can't succeed without investing some currencies to ⬆️ gear to reach better rewards on the next stairs. It may need some adjust and so on, but if you unlock décent enough rewards without unschack, again, it will just bé like anguish 1.0 cheese IMHO

[full shell]

Shackling just means having to choose between anguish and ascension. To reiterate, I find ascension to be the end goal and guilds to be the means for meeting the lofty ascension requirements. If I can't use the ascension levels, what's the point?

[languid adder]

It would, for now, remove the biggest pain point that most of us have, imo.

Sure we still find something else to complain about, were the orna community
But that would be a big step.

[sinful vapor]

Are we talking about keeping the bonus rate from 1-4 through ALL levels? Yeah that'd be better

[fierce cedar]

not that; thats cause the monster who joined the fight is anguish 0

[sinful vapor]

So shackles at 5+ would only apply to each level's bonus

[full shell]

I'm okay with the concept of having greater rewards from a self-imposed limitation but this difference feels extreme. Unshackled 5 being less rewarding than level 1 is nuts to me.

[weak steeple]

Odie you are correct - people do want the challenge and enjoy it, but not at the expense of rewards

Simply put

The 4-5 transition is at the expense of rewards

[fierce cedar]

people want free stuff

[paper void]

bonus value accrued from Ang1-4 would not be removed from the total Ang bonus. then the bonuses of Ang 5 would be reduced

[languid adder]

Okay that is weird

[sinful vapor]

Yes that's exactly what most of us would like as the baseline

I think it would be super amazing if we could also choose to shackle even lower for more rewards

That really leans into the "rewarding difficulty" aspect

[paper void]

yes, i just think we'll be back to this convo after such a change because:

this group loves efficiency

they'll realize they have more efficient with ALs at Ang 4 even though the rewards are higher at Ang 5

we won't be solving anything but making the transition look smoother on paper

[umbral blaze]

Can we please get great monster aspects back in the anguish guild shop

[full shell]

That's an idea, or perhaps a sliding scale based on how many ALs one is willing to shackle.

[sinful vapor]

Yup exactly my thoughts

[weak steeple]

Im actually not arguing for efficiency here at all, im asking that the reward equal the increase in challenge is all

Because currently it doesnt

If anything, harder content should reward relatively more than easier efficient content

[paper void]

but we can all agree that the efficiency convo will come, yes?

[raven bane]

I think there may be efficiency 'sweetspots' that open up, but for most its certainly not 4.

[weak steeple]

Yes and ill be the first to shut it down 😂

[paper void]

lol

[weak steeple]

You know me

[fierce cedar]

yes. world farm is so inefficient!!

[paper void]

i think 4 will still be the first sweetspot

[fierce cedar]

also where the light elms go?!

[paper void]

maybe until 10-12 when the bonuses really feel juicier

[paper void]

still in terra's legacy/day

[sinful vapor]

I plan on increasing every level

[full shell]

I do miss those free apples. Maybe I do love free stuff. 🤔

[weak steeple]

Just to generalize - if the content is 2x harder, the rewards shouldnt be 1.05x

[full shell]

And they shouldn't be 0.0033x either

Aight I appreciate the opportunity to discuss. This has, at a minimum, been cathartic. I'll sit on that "first sweet spot" and hope Odie's proposed change to shackling comes to fruition. Good night, all.

[languid adder]

For me, i dont want a sweet spot, i at least dont wanna get punished for progressing.
And with the new system, im no longer, so i will progress. And then if rewards really need tweaks then be it but at least im not getting a middle finger for progressing

[raven bane]

Even if the reward is .1% percent better its still an increase and will still be able to farm new anguish gear, which is a huge boon.

[languid adder]

Sleep well! May your dreams be unshackled and not anguished.

[raven bane]

Anguished Dreams is my new wrestling finisher

[storm wadi]

I don't think it will. I think the vocal majority are getting what they're asking for and will actually push anguish now.

[umbral blaze]

I personally will probably follow a loop like -> First farm my highest unlocked anguish level unshackled till I have anguished gear for that level -> Get shackled and use the anguished gear for higher bonuses

[sinful vapor]

For the record - if the current shackled rewards are intended to be the "rewarding" rates for the difficulty in anguish, I think those rates should become an "extra difficulty" rate

Maybe to keep things simple: make a new level of shackles. If ang5 shackles you at 8, make a new level at AL5, or AL 10; and have the most difficult shackling give the current shackled rates instead

And lower everything above it slightly

Not sure if that made sense. Basically, create a more difficult path for extra rewards somehow

[old aspen]

But to your point Odie. I agree that challenging content is interesting. And I enjoy a good challenge, with the current shackle system I feel that:

1. I have tried to do anguish 1.0 at low ALs and have had my fun, put my head down and grinding out hours to get to the AL I am today. So I feel I have already done my time at little to low als and that kind of challenge has been scratched for me as a player.

2. In the current system high al players sit at anguish level 4 and farm up without much of a loss as the current shackle scaling doesn’t hinger that grind.

3. I love the different hindrance each level of anguish can provide, as well as the synergy you can find as a player within the options. But frequently the 20+% stat jump is a hard pill to swallow when your proof chances don’t improve much compared to the base anguish level 1 rate.

For me if the choice was shackles or lose the ability to equip gear in two slots, bye bye gear slots

[bronze plinth]

I do love difficulty aswell. But currently i dont experience any but slow progress

[woeful raven]

Some player reach ang10+ with shackles , i think shackles never be a issue. And the 2.0 reward after 25ang are bonus, if compare to 1.0.

[arctic wren]

Can someone explain how does this candle work ?
Not sure if correct thread but it's a part of the Anguish update.

[bronze plinth]

Not part of anguish

Wee

Took me 80 scrolls to reach lvl 3 and 250 proofs

Im out of normal scrolls now so i gotta hit some sphinx/fey jorm

[languid adder]

If i summon scrolls raids, will i only get proofs from the T10 raids? Aka should i just release the rest (except the yetis ofc)

[bronze plinth]

All raids give proofs

[languid adder]

Great design choice! Thanks!

[mossy wave]

where's your mood drops

[bronze plinth]

I save them for higher anguish

I want good anguished ophion set

[fierce cedar]

About those boots and more broadly anguish item bonus,
#🏆│triumph-and-tragedy message
(1.03 x lvl) x (item stats + adorns)

instead of

(1.03 x item x lvl) + adorns

I guess its a good thing? so i shouldn't be bothered? kinda not intuitive for me tho

[short osprey]

(math is a little off but I think I understand what you're trying to say)
But if adorns weren't included they would eventually become obsolete. Once we start hitting Ang20-30-40-etc and the items are getting a 100%+ boost, getting +8 atk would matter even less. Now if ward was included in anguish stat calc's then I'd be concerning, but as it is I feel it makes the most sense.
Also it gives more use to adorns that dont have "+2% ward" for once!

[bronze plinth]

I just want my anguished fomo set to start doing something

[timber furnace]

Lyncus Bristles become even more obsolete when they are included to the ang scaling

[fierce cedar]

lyncus bristles are obsolete? cause of frenzy exists?

i finally just got about 15 total

[sinful vapor]

Bristles don't boost ss and lower att

They do give ward but ss is more att focused now, and frenzy gives 100% cd chance

[fierce cedar]

but crit

[timber furnace]

I'm Rs, I was thinking about the Avidity chance (0.5% )

[fierce cedar]

just got this outta the forge today

[languid adder]

Any info when the adjustment dropped? Went to 5 now on 2 paths, still stimky

[languid adder]

Nearly caps corvus :o

[left mauve]

dude, everybody use bristles

[timber furnace]

It also caps mana at 0

[languid adder]

Where Realm belongs

[glass mango]

All negative stat + unique ability adorns are going to be obsolete

[sinful vapor]

For anguish, yeah

[fierce cedar]

over 5k mana, under 10k hp

[grave fulcrum]

on rs?

[fierce cedar]

yes

[grave fulcrum]

i think you want atleast 10k hp

[fierce cedar]

i need to re adorn

[grave fulcrum]

mainly so that when you do double/quad edge

you are left at 1 hp

[fierce cedar]

? hows that an arg for more hp

[grave fulcrum]

since 1 is 10%? and the other is 40%?

stability

ease ability

also knowing exactly how much every dot will do because its % based

so 10k would make its 300 for poison 500 for zerk 1 and 1000 for zerk 2/3

personally i have to figure out each time ive got dots up for beo if i live or not

and if i dont think i do i have to pot to test

and then figure out i could have or wouldnt have

and yes ik zerks are maxed at 999

plus if max hp is 1 then you cant redline 🙂

[fierce cedar]

even w a usable gear set (not shown) i have a sh*tload of mana on RS

but yea maybe more hp and swash would be good idk. i enjoy zerk raids

[languid adder]

As its tradition, a berserk arisen morrigan event is spawned every cycle, and then destroyed by the entire kingdom at once.

[valid mesa]

Are Celestials weapons going to be useless the more you progress on Anguish paths ?

[nocturne night]

Useless, probably not. Way more niche and not an autoinclude for sure though

[atomic ermine]

Apart from melancholy, I find it much slower because the hardest part is actually to find a mob from your tier. Would be nice if lower tier mob could also drop proofs, maybe with a lower chance. Something like your chance divided by 2 per tier bellow you.

[supple cape]

Yeah, I run a lot of monuments and I can generally recall which packs usually have T10 enemies... but it would be nice if if t9 enemies dropped proofs at like 1/5 that rate.

[naive lynx]

I would even say 1/3 the chance for t9s. It's still a good return on proofs without overkilling it. Especially with raids being very good (not op but solid) for proofs vs others now

Would make me go out of my way In towers to clear the whole thing as well

[vocal basalt]

Imo ang5 should give you a noticeable bump in bonuses. I think ppl will sit on ang4 for quite some time at least in melancholy (dungeons) because full aoe farming is just way faster and better for proofs

And then and 6 and beyond would work as they work now. Small increments. Because you will have that base that ang 5 provided + some ALs from higher shackling

[short osprey]

Well the name checks out, I really do feel despair

[naive lynx]

I honestly think shackles should just be removed at this point. Especially if it's true that raid proofs cap at 25 as early as ang13.

Big ALs will get the proofs regardless and hit hard content anyhow. The lowbies honestly suffer the most with them at this rate and are slowed the most

[short osprey]

Sadly as much as I agree I think NF (and a small minority of people) want to keep them

[naive lynx]

But it's just bad after playing with it for a bit now. It doesn't slow high ALs down and just hurts people who wanna get into it more. High ALs will regardless get hit hard in higher Ang. Even with good gear it was a slog at 40+ Ang hordes and I'd say 25 on the others

Rates can be fixed for proofs if that's what they worry about

[short osprey]

I understand they don't want high ALs to just roll through content, but if the guild is theoretically infinite high AL people will reach a point to where it is difficult, as long as proof/min rate does not out scale the mat cost for ALs

[short osprey]

Seems we were typing the same message at the same time Lol

[naive lynx]

It's just true 🤷 especially when the maluses start adding up on crit builds and classes as well.

I honestly say make shackles completely optional. You get the normal stuff but if you want challenge for more rewards shackles are there. Someone even said shackle proofs. Make shackle proofs a thing that you can spend on say upping a roll of an anguish passive from 8% faction DMG to 9% faction damage. It's its own worthy currency that would give something unique and cool but you have to work for it 🤷

[short osprey]

I made that suggestion a few days ago and it got some good feedback

But If removing shackles is completely out of the question, the suggestion I said the other day in this chat I've seen get some of the better feedback over all was changing shackles to work something like this:

Ang4 - 18% Proof chance

Ang5 (Unshackled)   - 18.5%
Ang5 (Shackled)     - 19% 

Ang6 (Unshackled)   - 19%
Ang6 (Shackled)     - 20% 

Ang7 (Unshackled)   - 19.5%
Ang7 (Shackled)     - 21% 

Ang7 (Unshackled)   - 20%
Ang7 (Shackled)     - 22% 

[nocturne night]

It's not quite as simple as that.
Shackles aren't just to stop people from breezing low level anguish with a bunch of ascensions.
They're also so that people don't just find a sweetspot that they still oneshot content at and get a bunch of proofs at and just park there - which was something that happened with ang1.0

Obviously, that place exists right now, and it's Anguish 4

But without shackles, it'd be elsewhere, for a higher reward - depending on how highly ascended you are.

It'd turn anguish from Hard Content For Bonus Rewards into Bonus Rewards While Still Oneshotting Enemies

Which is, again, one of the failed features of Ang1.0

[short osprey]

I feel with the community's love for min/maxing tho people will always still manage to find some sort of sweet spot they'll wanna stick at tho, like for me, Torment 5 was just no where near good, but now I have found a solid footing in Torment 6 where I can 1-shot nearly everything with shackles on

[nocturne night]

Yes, there will always be a sweet spot

However, without shackles, that sweet spot is ever increasing (just ascend more) - whereas with shackles, it's a constant spot

-# Note: "constant" isn't quite right, but much more slowly rising. After all, power creep is real, and eventually class reworks / item buffs / new events push player power forward enough to increase the sweet spot.

[languid adder]

surely at like 30 or something when the stats outweight stuff like crit buffs but its gonna take a couple hundred hours till you should consider that

[languid adder]

i think that sadly as is also out of the question. Odie stated in here that he wants this to be content for difficulty, not for rewards (replacing a system that was supposed to be both with it that ran for years)

tho i just hit 7 in raids, in about 3-4 months i can tell you if its actually worth it...

at least now ascensions beeing partly respected is a huge step for a better ang 2.0!

[naive lynx]

Ascensions I worked for forever arnt being respected though. Will take probably over a year for my casual self to even be able to use all my ALs in given content

[languid adder]

I fully agree, but at least its now slightly respected instead of disrespected, Odie said he will change it so at least 5 never gives less rewards then 4.

We are all waiting for the patch.

It could be already in server side, but the numbers didnt change on my end and i dont see a patch in app story

[naive lynx]

But shackles just does nothing but prevent the inevitable when people become unshackled. So we are being punished for time vs time we have already spent. I can't even buy mats or focus on ALs now because I have to hoard proofs to get to where I'd like to be. I'd even be fine with making the items more expensive vs cheaper and being shackled.

I think shackles have a good idea but it's current implementation is just awful the more I play with 2.0

[raven bane]

I'm not really a fan of shackles either but think we should see how (if) the changes that were discussed the other night go regarding just shackling the growth

[languid adder]

I agree that the system is not designed with the love it deserves, especially not the progression, and the mindset towards how rewarding it should be also does a huge dump on any system we already have, and also on ang 1.0.
I just cant really accept the take of suddenly efficiency shouldnt be so high, we had refineries for 4 years and ang 1.0 for multiple years too without any nerfs to either, i dont really buy that suddenly it matters so much that the entire mentality about a replacement for such a system changes.

[nocturne night]

Not quite. When people "become unshackled", it's merely because their AL matches the expected AL of the current anguish level.

When you get to a point where you finally unshackle, someone with higher AL would still be shackled - to the level you are currently at.

It also doesn't just delay the inevitable. After all, if you ascend enough while at the unshackled point, you'll get shackled again.

It just prevents people bruteforcing levels via ascensions.

[naive lynx]

I don't want it to be crazy efficient. I just want to be able to use current hard work that I've put years into and have the difficulty where I can keep pushing.

[languid adder]

Which also makes sense and would be a good design if the system was released alongside ascensions ^^"

[naive lynx]

I'd like to have what own and be rewarded for clearing very difficult content lol

[nocturne night]

The best time for Ang2.0 to have released would've been when ascensions released.

The second best time is now.

[languid adder]

I migrated and im not happy.
Either the design philosophy just doesn't belong to anything orna represents or its just still in its alpha-phase and there is just a LOT of ironing out quirks that has to be one.

[nocturne night]

I'd argue it was ang1.0 that shouldn't have released as it was. But we don't have to agree

[naive lynx]

And frankly I could care less if say a 150 or 200 Al is unshackled vice versa vs me. It's a PvE main game where PVP has options for no ascensions and tokens to disable. Refineries are fixed so there's really no cheap way. You have to work and put time in regardless now.

Keep the limits on where if I'm ang6 and my buddy is ang3 they can't do the raid with me though

[languid adder]

I also agree to that! But i dont think it mattered enough, as it wasnt changed at all for the past years, same with refinery, efficiency and a "balanced" approach at progression is a new concern that i cant see beeing important before

if something that gamebreaking is untouched for multiple years and the resources are dedicated to other things instead, its not important enough, so i dont support the sudden shift in mentality change

[naive lynx]

It was a shallow system compared and it's being fixed slowly now but there's still some big holes to fill. Maluses and paths are great. The ever increasing difficult is great. Imo the things that need the most attention now are shackles and rates combined and then something with crit for the poor classes that can't or don't use SS. Like heretics even with innate rely on it and get some really crappy maluses to avoid. Its not fair to all classes

[languid adder]

i agree that the gameplay is great!!!
But everything else needs much love.
Cause everything else is what we couldnt test cause we didnt knew the rates in beta.

[naive lynx]

Agreed

[nocturne night]

Orna development cycles are slow. Such is the consequence of having a small team - they are spread thin at all given times.
Doesn't mean that they should let things fester forever.
They were never happy with refineries. They were never happy with Anguish 1.0.
They aren't happy with Celestial Weapons.
They took a while to get to those issues, and some of them haven't even been tackled yet.

[languid adder]

and when you can get to your level at AL 100 in about 2 hours in beta, cool.
If i need 300 if i speedrun it here, no thanks

[naive lynx]

I've seen more people unhappy with shackles than with. Think it should be priority number one

[languid adder]

I dont really recall what we got in the last years, doesnt mean its not important im just bad when it comes to new content additions, i remember towers, the tower fixing process, the first crit nerf and then deep dungeons, and then it sjust black

[naive lynx]

It's the biggest glaring thing about 2.0. most others things have work arounds. Most.

[nocturne night]

In the end, it's a free to play game without ads that we're talking about.
They can't be dedicating resources to that sort of change all the time.
If they slow down on events and packs and all sorts of other things, things don't look so well for their funds

[languid adder]

That is something i agree to. I spend like 30 bucks a month in my try to help with that

[nocturne night]

(I assume, that is. I don't actually have any economic knowledge of NF's inner workings)

[languid adder]

i heard something about a sponsor at some point and since then i kinda stopped caring, a sponsor in a capitalistic society is never a good outlook for the consumer

[nocturne night]

And I'm not saying it isn't. Even odie aknowledges it's not perfect.

[languid adder]

doesnt mean there is one just the thought messed with me x3

[nocturne night]

But removing it ain' it chief

[naive lynx]

I'm down for a rework of it. But also down to remove it as there's options if removed

[nocturne night]

I doubt a full rework would happen.
It'd likely be shackles starting from ang1; or shackles' penalty reduced slightly; or shackles being decoupled from ascension requirement; or shackles only applying earning reduction on the bonuses of ang4+

[naive lynx]

Shackles are also a huge slap in the face to casual players which the majority of Orna is. You know how long it's gonna take the average player to get to high Ang? Lol

[nocturne night]

Or something else the man is cooking

[naive lynx]

I like the 75% shackle he had in beta

Unshackled you got 75% rewards. Shackled was full

[nocturne night]

Okay that one actually confuses me. How does shackles slap the face of casual players? They're the ones with low AL, they should be unshackled real fast lol

[languid adder]

if the content is supposed to be enjoyed at very specific difficultys handcrafted for certain power levels, thats really great, and i love the philosophy.
If the people who earned their power before the release of anguish 2.0 have to work as hard as others to progress, aka taking much, MUCH longer until they can work at that power without maluses, we have a problem.
Thats basically the one big problem i see.

Idea of shackles, fun, i dont want the same issues as ang 1.0 again. Anguished equipment, okay cool i guess, just seems like ascension 2.0 to me (except the bonus stat) but i roll with it, artificial grind is still grind.
But the shape of progression, oof.

[languid adder]

for now its the latter, as odie said last time in here

[naive lynx]

Lower proof rates, and high cost makes it take longer. Less gear less higher ang

And you can't piggy back on higher ang

[languid adder]

1380366978182680656

wait thats id not link

[nocturne night]

I don't see how a new piece of content taking as long for everyone to start off at is a bad thing?

[languid adder]

#1377194080718553150 message

Boobledi boop

[languid adder]

it isnt, IF it wouldnt deduct your power.

[naive lynx]

I would agree if it was completely new. Not tied to people who have put years of work in

[nocturne night]

I think we might be talking about different things. Proof rates should be the same for casual vs long time players at the same anguish level?

[languid adder]

fully agree

loot should be the same regardless of al 0 or 1000

talking about getting to the level thats designed for your AL comfortable

[naive lynx]

Yes. I mean it's hard for people to push this to catch up regardless of shackles. Shackles make it hard for lower ALs. Higher ALs have good gear etc. Shackles slow you down but don't prevent the inevitable

[languid adder]

i would take about, i mathed a bit, 250 hours to go to raid anguish that would allow me to use full 99 without decrease

and raids are currently the fastest.

DO NOT remind me of world farming.

[naive lynx]

We don't talk about that

[nocturne night]

World farming is real, world farming can hurt you

[languid adder]

dies in affinity candle spawning T9s

[nocturne night]

I love uh
checks notes
Killing on average 2200 monsters to go up the first level

If you want the funnier fact, in beta it used to be bosses only

[naive lynx]

I think making t9s drop proofs at 1/4 the rate k would change my mind on shackles as well

It'd be a bit easier to hit those mile stones without changing a ton. And ease people into new anguish

[languid adder]

World farming be like: I am now relevant
Anguish: Daddy's Home

[naive lynx]

World farming anguish adding a percent chance of a mob to turn into a horde would solidify it to be a great fun farming method

[languid adder]

since lower mobs are unavoidable in any content, they should also drop proofs, but im fine with reducing the overall proof rate
I dont wanna nift pick my fights when i do monuments, towers, etc.

[naive lynx]

It'd make me actually dive deeper into certain content like towers and such. I wouldn't skip anything

[wooden trail]

Has anyone gotten proof of despair from fishing?

[naive lynx]

People fish?

[languid adder]

like im still doing any fight in tower from 30 on, its not really considered well when it comes to what drops proofs
But i have to say, raids gotta bit of love and raids are at a great spot now

so it CAN become better and WILL be tackled eventually

[nocturne night]

What it means by despair affecting fishing is that the fights you get from fishing are world anguish

you won't get proofs from fishing

[languid adder]

imagine deep dungeons that are worth exploring

[nocturne night]

you'll get proof from killing that arisen hydra you fished

10% of the time.

[naive lynx]

In my case never. I've gotten 2 since drop

[languid adder]

deep dungeons are such a fun idea but got abandoned way too early... but thats a topic for another thread.

Ill always be salty about them not beeing good 😭

[naive lynx]

Bad efficiency, low exp, and bad rewards 🤷

[wooden trail]

So fishing for proofs is a waste of time…got it

[nocturne night]

Deep dungeons are not something NF dislikes either
They just.. don't have the time and effort to put into it when they're spread thin literally elsewhere

[naive lynx]

Endless should be tied into spelunking imo. But! That's not this we need anguish fixes

[languid adder]

its not about the efficiency, i dont wanna do it for profit.

I just want realistic guild EXP gain, deeper dungeons, just... MORE of the system. I dont care for the rewards beeeing ass if im honest, The concept is really fun but its just so much in its inphancy, that its almost taunting

[naive lynx]

Sliding off track lol

[nocturne night]

Also keep it in mind that anguish is a global booster for everything.

Anguish makes towers give out more shards. It's not just about gathering the proofs

[naive lynx]

That's what I mean by efficiency lol sorry. It's just flows bad imo

[languid adder]

the rates it increases dont really make up for the added time so far, even including the proofs, but that may change at much higher anguish, i can tell you in a few months.
Or if i wasted a few months of time X3

[naive lynx]

Towers are perfect. Minus my opinion on shackles lol

[languid adder]

Towers are actually the most smooth content. Even tho i hate i cant hold on "next floor", but thats so minor

[nocturne night]

Just as a general reminder before I go to bed

[languid adder]

:o

[nocturne night]

Anguish is, as a whole, freshly released. NF do want to make it land right.
There are many things that can and will be tweaked. Among them, Shackles and Rewards.

However, both of these things touch on very sensitive topics - Ease and Reward.
Anguish 1.0 failed in their eyes because of too much of both of them. Too easy, too rewarding.
And the thing is, anguish 1.0 wasn't always like that. It was the constant bickering and requests to make it easier that got it patched to be easier.
And then it ended the way it did.

So I am sure you can imagine that NF aren't exactly wanting to make that same mistake.
They'll be taking a slow and steady approach to tweaking Anguish 2.0. Gather data. Gather feedback. Adjust. Slowly.

Not saying you shouldn't be giving your opinions. You should. Feedback is important.
I'm just saying, keep the expectations grounded. It won't be a radical change. Progress through the system slowly and steadily.

And as a reminder to people who are still parked in Anguish 1.0:

Anguish 1.0 is still up for people to finish spending their proofs. Not to stay there for earnings. If you stay there too long, Anguish 1.0 will eventually be phased out and you won't get a chance to spend your proofs

Anguish 1.0 is not the same as Legacy Area Control. It will not be supported in parallel. It will be phased out in its entirety. You cannot remain there forever

[languid adder]

I just hope it wont be like deep dungeons where i try to love it, but in the end, i just miss goblin fortress because the background was more fun...
But i also dont think NF will make the same mistake.

[nocturne night]

(And when you do transfer over, you'll be behind everyone who got a headstart in anguish 2.0)

[languid adder]

But when they will transfer over, progress speeds are likely better, and they can catch up faster then we needed to get to those points

So currently i understand why people dont want to change, even if they dont really use the system

[nocturne night]

Says who

[languid adder]

My sanity, and my 3000+ hours of ingame experience
And my prayers i say before going to bed

[nocturne night]

There is absolutely no guarantee that ang1.0 will be phased out later than ang2.0 gets buffs

[languid adder]

thats true BUT...

Okay fair i dont have an argument i just can pray

[nocturne night]

Go to sleep. The both of us need it

[languid adder]

at least since 5 now isnt a direct nerf to 4 (seems to be on the server already) i can grind higher

[languid adder]

Sleep Well, John! Thank you for beeing the voice of reason we desperately need in this community.

Because im sure not the voice of reason without some bloodshed xD