3.17 General

[hybrid sluice]

I don't follow. So far I've seen the maluses be exactly the same in both choices

I haven't tested as much though

[fierce island]

They aren't always, sometimes they are though

[hushed berry]

The selection maluses aren't necessarily final either

[red sky]

If the Conq spec only provides 15% then the reward for that much progress in guild is a spec nobody will ever use because Warden is far superior?

[hushed berry]

I'm sure you've seen that some of them look kinda funny in a nonsensical way

With objectively better choices (Easier and more rewarding)

And oddly non-choices (Both sides with same maluses)

There isn't a huge variety of maluses just yet either

[hybrid sluice]

Back to this - who wants this to be a thing?

Why would I want to swap to another class for an anguish level

This isn't how the vast majority of players play or want to play

[hushed berry]

It's not about wanting to swap for the anguish level

[modern dragon]

Anyone who mains summoner after 250 is sus

[hushed berry]

It's about everyone getting to have their class in the spotlight a bit

[hybrid sluice]

Setting maluses up in a specific order to artificially encourage a meta of class variety is super weird

[hushed berry]

Nobody said it was a specific order of setting up, either

It's just a consequence of random maluses that punish specific things

[hybrid sluice]

But you said it wasn't random

[hushed berry]

Not random in the way that it's the same for everyone

Currently it's random because I don't think odie handpicked every option

[fierce island]

I think Odie randomly generated them at the start

[hybrid sluice]

Yeah that's a problem IMO. A random meta of maluses is still a fixed meta

Even if Odie didn't handpick it

[hushed berry]

In either case, think of it this way.
Why do you want it to be static?

Why would you want, per example, Deity to be the best class to do anguish content in all levels, always?

[hybrid sluice]

I don't want it to be static, I want to stick with my class. My way of playing

[hushed berry]

And you can

and if the best class per anguish level fluctuates, then every now and then, your class will be the best

and sometimes, it will not

[hybrid sluice]

That shouldn't be defined by a fixed order of maluses

[hushed berry]

What should it be defined by?

[hybrid sluice]

My own anguish journey

[hybrid sluice]

Give me the two options, randomly rolled. Let me select the one I feel is best for me. If I get bad rolls, a way to reroll is good but not to the point of "rerolling to perfection"

[iron violet]

Imo, make it an earlier reward here. It's a lower tier spec than warden, so lower tier bonus makes sense. But its super far down the reward tree to unlock it

[hybrid sluice]

I can't process this, help pls

[proper dagger]

Now we have a new interface for reward, so maybe make proofs also visible?

[vital path]

Suspiciously wonderful, right?

[hybrid sluice]

Ngl this interface looks crazy confusing

It should be simplified to what each level is changing only, not every single modifier

[proper dagger]

maybe use the right icon and text...

[hushed berry]

I did suggest that once upon a time. No idea if it is coming or not, but it wasn't the priority at the time

let me see if I can grab the mockup

and then yknow, squish the blank space

I'm not the best at image editing. That was done in paint.

(base image, fwiw:)

[proper dagger]

next level, show in dark form the possible proofs, even if no (0) proofs are aqcuired

[junior matrix]

Proofs need to be that prevalent in the reward UI?

[tribal pond]

Golly I wish

[hybrid sluice]

Would be nice if they were prominent since being in anguish means you want them

[tribal pond]

maybe not the 0 ones, but seeing big ol' proofs like that would be super handy and a big dopamine hit

When running anguish dungeons, it's the only thing I look for on a Floor Complete screen lel

which, granted, changes now with ornates but they're getting their own special place

[proper dagger]

yep, its always good to know if proofs are droped or not, especially in the beginning with lower drop rate

[hallow dune]

Even if its not up top, its own currency color font would be neat

[proper dagger]

and we are farming anguish mostly for the proofs, to lvl up, to buy something...

how is it thought with the anguish items, i have to farm lets say anguish 10 armor, lvl it up to beat anguish 10 to at least lvl 10 (1week), to get to anguish 11 with all the maluses and AL shackels, and than the same again for lvl 12?

[dawn rain]

Confetti would be good for the hit of dopamine as well

[maiden sierra]

Is the "Two-handed power % decrease" additive with other damage decrease lines ?
If yes, doesn't it penalize a bit too much the use of a two-handed weapon with an element vs one handed/dual wielding, does it?

[keen timber]

In just a few hours I have missed way too much across like eight different threads, and I don’t think it’s realistically possible for me to “catch up.”

Hope y’all had good discussions, lmao

[hybrid sluice]

I have another question about this. How does party play work exactly? If each player has two options in each step of their path, which modifiers are applied to the encounter

Does it just take the leader's?

[loud yew]

Afaik this

[hybrid sluice]

Yeah IMO the whole malus system needs to be reshuffled to be more random and to mesh with other players instead of ignore them

[gray solar]

We really need to define random

[hybrid sluice]

Like how AL requirements are random

[gray solar]

Oh fuck no

[hybrid sluice]

Within bounds

[gray solar]

Sorry, but no

[hybrid sluice]

I don't mean exactly like it

[fierce island]

Possibly serious suggestion:
Have Dangy, Covyn, and Havel sit together and hash out every single level of every single path and have it make sense instead of being randomly assigned.

Maybe Purrly and Mochi too

[gray solar]

Im not partaking in a system where my anguish 20 maluses are randomly more difficult than somebody else's

If we get choices and they are different through player agency, all good.

But in no world is random difficulty between players a good idea

[hybrid sluice]

Yeah I mean getting choices

Some randomness within limits

[gray solar]

Choices yes
Random no

[fierce island]

Please take randomness out of this (imo)

I think there is no need at all for them to differ player to player

[hybrid sluice]

Why not

[fierce island]

For a system that at the top end is hyper difficult, some players should not be randomly given 'easier' or 'more difficult' options

[gray solar]

How does it make it better in any way?

Player A has -30 crit damage and player B has -25 crit damage

Thats just worse

[hybrid sluice]

How does everyone guaranteed to have -30 crit damage at ang 5 make their choices meaningful

Surely I must be missing something; how are these choices relevant at all

What "path" is there to take if there is no randomness/no difference

[fierce island]

My opinion is that there should be differences between the two path options, but those two choices should be the same for everyone

Like (oversimplified) one path has -25% crit damage and the other has -25% for all 4 basic elements

[hybrid sluice]

Ok, yeah that sounds close to what I want. But what happens next level

If I'm always forced to pick between the same things at each level can I just always not take -crit?

[fierce island]

Maybe next level is choosing between

• -20% Crit and -10% ward absorption
• -20% 4 basic element and 5% enemy second chance

The level after that

• -40% non-basic element
• -40% basic element

In this version of anguish the levels are not building off each other. They don't need to be related to the prior choice

[hybrid sluice]

Something like this sounds fine; better than current. This means I can actually customize my maluses

What I think would be really awesome is a kind of roguelike effect

Where effects can come up randomly and maybe have certain caps on how often can be selected, or how often they come up

[hybrid sluice]

I'm not sure how fair/balanced you could make a predetermined selection like this

You'd have to balance every single choice and level against every single class

Are you going to allow some builds to choose irrelevant maluses every level?

Won't some builds be hit by both choices in many levels, while others just won't?

Ultima for example is impaired by every single choice you mentioned

[latent karma]

While I would prefer a random maluses as an avid rougelite player, what is weirder to me is that the path doesnt necessarily build off your previous choices. Like to me it would make more sense if one option was 3% berserk enemies and then your previous choice builds upon that. Same with rewards, weird to me that you can make level 20 good for proofs and then make 21 good for gear, would make sense if each choice had like a +chance to either and you build up

[vocal merlin]

Are anguished drops supposed to be at level 10 or is this just for the beta (hope it’s a feature but wasn’t sure)

[viscid bloom]

As far as I'm aware the chance is for the things to drop at the level your anguish is currently, so let's say you do dungies at ANG 10, the items that would inevitably be anguished, will be anguished at level 10

[neat glacier]

You can also get other anguish level gear if you have 10 🤔, it won't be 10 guaranteed

[viscid bloom]

True

[proper dagger]

How much sense is it making for example the 25% critdmg malus, when im facing a mammon with millions on hp and im making that much less dmg, so his hp, def res scales immense up, the same time our damage scales in everyway down (crit dmg malus, element damage malus, less dmg on some enemies, zerk realms into redline with 1hp instead of kill), so its getting to a lot of time killing mammon for example, yeah we get more stats, but the damage is still cut down by more steps than we get more damage

[junior remnant]

I like the new floor rewards that highlight ornates+. However I'm not so sure on the random anguished stats on the same item. Seems like that will make managing inventory way messier to keep 1 of every feasible combination per item. That will get overwhelming quickly

[rustic escarp]

PSA: iOS players that have previously beta tested should now be able to access the beta. TestFlight just auto downloaded it for me

[proper dagger]

I dont know if im wrong, but the time needed for same content grows with anguish 2.0 really fast, loosing buffs in dungeons -> rebuff otherwise dmg is to low to get them down in less than <6-8 hits (a lot of dmg debuff, AL shackl) while facing 200-700k opponents hitting your face down

[compact rover]

From my own experience :

• Anguish is divided is 4 for each main content, no need to custom level Anguish for each thing now !
• Anguish now gives a variety of buffs/debuffs, no more an indecent amount of stat boost for monsters.
• You can choose between 2 options of bonuses/maluses each time you level up Anguish in a specific content (If we could add a 3rd option or a reroll in case of very harsh options)
• The new anguish design seems more party focused
• The new Guild Allegiance rewards seems very interesting and I will be happy to grind for them
• Balance changes address some of the most important problems and allow more diversity
• However those changes may render more difficult Anguish, but only time and creativity may tell us that

Very hyped by this update

[proper dagger]

Looking nice the update yes, i think some kind of sweet spot between maluses (amount and %, let the maluses start with smaller % and let them grow with time, also the amount of maluses) and enemy scaling make it better to play

[proven scaffold]

Just throwing my two cents in on random vs predetermined maluses:

If they are consistent across all players, it allows strategies to develop over time. It's an age old tale that things are too tough/tricky right up until the perfect strats are determined, then they become too easy.

Having tricky maluses is also exciting in the sense that it opens more design space for interesting gear pieces

[neat glacier]

No more qatvganga anguish xd

[proper dagger]

Yeah thats all good, makes it also interesting, but rebuff 3-4 times in a dungeon for example makes it somehow annoying, worst case scenario facing floor 16 2 mammos and zerk realm with 200% stats or even more with anguish 8 and 16 al, fading perm buffs, realm on 1hp -> malus, ward fail malus, less ward absorption, less damage, more dmg from enemy, what playaround is there for example...

For some things there seme to ne now workaround...

I know this is the worst case scenario, but still possible in low anguish

It makes things quite interesting, but really fast really hard, especially when you have to wait 1 week for new anguish gear to be lvl 10

[zenith matrix]

perma buff fade chance just leads to frustrations / not a fun time imo
idk if completely removing it is off the table or not

[late parcel]

Buffing became such a trivial thing in this game that Idk what to say really

[proper dagger]

With 4 %. Fade chance i have lost half of all perm.buffs (full puffed) on about 10-12 floors

[neat glacier]

Yeah that's crazy

[proper dagger]

Rebuffing on higher floors is somehow a good chance on dying

[compact rover]

In party content where you could have different roles for each teammate, you could have a Buffer, to help quickly buff everyone, and keeping buff on.
But in solo, it's kinda harsh for long fight through Raids and Dungeons. World Farming and Towers don't have this problem because you don't need/have to buff.

[vital path]

Nice, thanks a lot for the heads up

[neat glacier]

You might need to buff with new anguish 🤔

Because of hp scaling

[compact rover]

mmh, like a Mimic's Mischief + Gait and launch a grenade

Like how I used to fight in my first towers

The most frustrating thing must be to see some buffs disappearing while you still buffing yourself

And I don't even want to think about Summoner setup phase in Endless 💀

[vital path]

It should be fine as long as we don’t use any anguish

But yeah, kinda meh

[compact rover]

Well the goal of Anguish is not to be touched every time you want to do a specific content

So if one malus prevents you to do some content, it's not a viable malus to keep as is

[vital path]

True

[compact rover]

Same goes for the Failing Ward malus

Overall new Anguish design is very good, it's just some malus that needs to be ajusted or removed

[proper dagger]

I think the same yes

I also think the progression line of scaling and maluses needs a new sweet spot

[modern saffron]

Ok i think i got the gist of what should happen to make anguish palatable for endgamers who want actual permanent chances of actual progress (ie doing the same content better) , without breaking it. Instead of doing no-shackles -> no progress, give normal progress if you want to play with your AL, or hard-core buffed rewards if you activate the shackles. That way higher AL will find their farming spots at some level, and with more al/gear they will progress still making use of al, people wanting the hardcore experience will be rewarded more

also hp (and stats in general?) should scale more smoothly, like anguish gear does, can't have hp of opponents scaling more than the best possible scaling in game for the player, as if that is the case the progression isn't actually endless, it has a cap

[modern saffron]

my take on the HoA server please chime in if yo agree or disagree with further sggestions

and this for HP scaling, sorry to repost here but i write on HoA server, although the changes should make sense for both games

[zenith matrix]

im glad that there's someone who understands "infinite scaling" and can actually put it into words

[proper dagger]

Very good written, thanks

[neat glacier]

I agree 💯

[fierce island]

I agree almost completely, the difference is that I think it's a good thing

And I also want to say that we've been told anguish 2.0 is not infinite

so what supposedly had to be ano-cap, endlessly improving experience is instead a hard-capped one fairly soon in the path

This, however, is just factually incorrect. In the beta with very little time to tune builds and grind gear, and with path choices that still need to be updated, people are getting to Anguish 25+ and surpassing Anguish 1.0 difficulty. This is absolutely not something that can be done quickly in the eventual Anguish 2.0 due to needing to grind a bit to increase levels

[modern saffron]

so you think that removing the main reason most endgamers play for is a good thing?

[fierce island]

Removing? What does Anguish 2.0 remove other than Anguish 1.0?

It's a choice to delve into the Anguish guild and challenge yourself

[modern saffron]

the pattern by which you play in order to be able to do more with the same time later on

the whole reason to do a lot of towers to AL for example

is so that i get more stuff from time invested later on

so i progress

if you don't have a way to do more in the same time, or the same thing faster

you don't progress

[hushed berry]

Also fwiw, "the main reason most endgamers play" is a little subjective.

I don't doubt it's yours, and hell, I won't even doubt it's a lot of HoA. But it isn't necessarily most of Orna

[modern saffron]

even if the anguish number grows

[fierce island]

And with anguish off that still happens exactly as before. Heavily acended overpowered players are fine to continue increasing power infinitely to deal with content

[modern saffron]

content is anguish ffs

tehere is no need for 150+ al in no-anguish anyway it's already instant

high al was to do ANGUISH faster

[fierce island]

No, anguish restricts your ALs, so it's not the content you can tackle with infinite power 🙂

[modern saffron]

whole idea is at this gear/al i can do towers at anguish X. I progress, i can do at anguish X+y IN THE SAME TIME

that's progress

[fierce island]

It's a challenging gamemode made to be difficult

And you can't just ascend away all difficulty from it

[modern saffron]

it's made to disallow progress, improving in efficiency

you are always stuck in the same wheel (actually worse every level because they scale more), never ever finding smoothness

and keep in mind you think it's good to impose this on everyone

when my proposal is you should have that, and we should have the other way

[modern saffron]

you say difficulty, but it's just time spent

that's not difficult, it's just boring

especially in a game where you need to kill zillions of things to drop stuff

you want dungeons to always take a lot of time

that's not difficult, just slower

[fierce island]

It would just be time spent if you could use the exact same build every level

And you can't

[modern saffron]

lol

rebuilding is trivial

try to imagine people who have all the stuff ok? like... endgamers?

[fierce island]

If you don't want to play with Anguish 2.0

Do not turn it on

[fierce island]

Anguished gear exists, you don't have all of it

That's the point

[modern saffron]

point is that even if you do

it's still growingly unefficient to farm

you "progress" into a worse state

progress is after i do this, things are BETTER for me lol

that's progress

your preferred mechanism is that after every time you get a promotion in your job for 10% extra income, all your expenses grow 15%, forever

[fierce island]

It's one guild in a game full of guilds and content

What part about "Do not turn on the damn anguish" doesn't make sense?

[modern saffron]

jeez it's not "one guild " omg

we do everything with anguish on at endgame right now ok? it's a feature of ALL gameplay outside pvp

every single content is affected

the part where you fail to realize with no anguish 1.0 game would be not interesting

and it's gone with this patch because of hp scaling

[fierce island]

Maybe that's the case for Aethric. I'm playing an entirely different game than you, and I speak for people on that game

And that's the Discord we're in

[modern saffron]

sure so in orna AL 100 people

do anguish 0 dungeons

and anguish 0 monuments

and anguish 0 towers

regularly?

[fierce island]

(why would you do anguish monuments)

[modern saffron]

for orns and proofs??

[hushed berry]

I do actually do anguish 0 monuments and towers and I am AL100.

I do anguish50 dungeons but not regularly

[modern saffron]

and anguish xp

ok so how is destroying anguish 1.0 a good plan , a good option exactly knight for orna players?

[fierce island]

I don't have a horse in the HP scaling race

Add it to Anguish 1.0 or don't, I do not care

What I argue for is not to damage Anguish 2.0

[modern saffron]

why do you think it's proper for hp scaling to be 20% or more per level when anguish gear scales 3%?

[hushed berry]

I much prefer the HP scaling to dex scaling tyvm

[fierce island]

You can add additional words to my mouth if you want, it doesn't mean I said them

[modern saffron]

well you said it's good

one of my 2 posts is about that

[fierce island]

Good doesn't mean "perfect and can't be improved"

[vital path]

Tbh I'm there with Ancient, it's not like with the conqueror's guild where you could just leave it as is and not choose anything, here it's affecting you whether you stay as anguish 1.0 or move on to 2.0. Not saying that's bad or good, but it's not as simple as just not choose 2.0 and everything stays the same as it used to be.

[fierce island]

If Anguish 1.0 stayed with just dex scaling, I wouldn't care. However Odie has already said he believes it's too powerful and would prefer HP scaling

[modern saffron]

anyway i find the "if you don't like it don't use it" quite offensive. The whole point of beta feedback is telling developers if we like stuff or not. If when i describe why i don't like it the answer is "eheh then don't use it" what is this really about? the fact you like it that way and don't want people to disagree?

[fierce island]

No, me saying don't use it is in regard to you saying it kills reason to progress or kills your ability to farm the game

You do not have to play with Anguish on 24/7

[modern saffron]

every person i interact with at the endgame does

it's expected to, it's just about which anguish for which content

now egbert for some reason hates xp, but even if you want "no anguish" you do 1 for xp in towers here

with no anguish, the game is trivialized pve

with anguish 2,0, all investment in AL is trivialized

and keep in mind the "difficulty" thing could stay for lovers of a permanent struggle where you click 10 minutes for 1 raid. Just let everyone else have a smooth increasing difficulty that they can still farm easily like now, just improved in 2.0

[hushed berry]

Wait hold on I hate exp now? When did that happen lol

[spring ice]

Not my video, but ang 1.0 doesn't really work.

[hushed berry]

Ah, because I don't have anguish in towers

[modern saffron]

when you set anguish at 0 john

for monument and towrs instead of 1 lol

[hushed berry]

I mean. Why would I? Does exp give you anything lol

[modern saffron]

progression in a tracked stat in a farming game...

aren't we all here to see numbers growing permanently?

[spring ice]

Skip to the end and mammon just annihilates with a 2m+ HP pool

[hushed berry]

No?

I'm here to have fun with a game

Orna's a grindy game but it's not a farming game

[zenith matrix]

in an rpg where my goal is to get stronger, i am
especially in a game like this, where ALs are publicly announced to not have a cap, where the majority votes it to not have a cap

[rustic escarp]

I tend to agree that Ang 1.0 should keep dex scaling as to leave that experience intact for players that don’t want to upgrade to 2.0

[hushed berry]

The issue with that is that then ang1.0 becomes the objectively correct thing to do, and anyone who transfers over is shooting themselves in the foot

[modern saffron]

ahh waiot

OBJECTIVELY in which sense?

[hushed berry]

Surely you can see how from a developer perspective, that is not a wirse thing to do

[modern saffron]

in the efficiency sense?

[hushed berry]

Yeah

[modern saffron]

so we do agree this patch nerfes efficiency to the ground

so we agree it's a damaging patch for anyone who is in the game for ... efficiency

[hushed berry]

Uh, yeah? That was never in question

[modern saffron]

ok so what was the "if you don't like it don't click it" answer

[hushed berry]

That's kind of the point, almost

[modern saffron]

when the claim is "this patch makes my game experience materially worse if it goes live like this"

[rustic escarp]

That’s more of an Ang2.0 issue imo. I’ve already voiced concerns that 2.0, in its current state, might slow down progression of materials, which might make it undesirable for players. I intend to switch over since 2.0 seems much more fun, but I can definitely see why many players would choose not to at this point

[hushed berry]

Not my answer

[modern saffron]

progression of materials is slowed down in dungeons

but that's not the main source of mats? refineries being nerfed (which is ok) matters more

and tower / mnemonics are by far better sources of mats?

[zenith matrix]

exactly, so shoudlnt we fix ang 2.0 to where at least most of the people would transfer there?

[modern saffron]

problem is people who liked dungeons even if less efficient than tower/mnemonic get nerfed to the ground

i mean i don't do the dungeons at a50 but i can relate

[hushed berry]

From the perspective that odie sees current anguish as too rewarding and doesn't want to keep it as is, nor give people the expectation that ang2.0 is going to be as rewarding or even moreso than ang1.0 - then yeah I think the current implementation of nerfing 1.0 is warranted

[modern saffron]

how is anguish too rewarding when doing anguish 0 towers gives more mats per minute than anguish 50 dungeons

[hushed berry]

2.0 could afford to be more appealing, but not at this stage just yet.

[hushed berry]

Not my question to answer.
And also I have to go, I should have left home like 20 minutes ago

[rustic escarp]

Has this been said by Odie? Not doubting you, just never saw him comment on the current iteration of Ang 1.0.

If NF sees Ang 1.0 as being too rewarding then I don’t understand why they’d even allow people to stay on 1.0, they should move everyone to 2.0 (not saying I agree with that, but seems like it’d make the most sense if they’re intending to nerf anguish gains)

[modern saffron]

wait a sec the ascension levels used to allow progress in anguish path are the sum of all different class ascension

that makes it even more trivial to achieve, to the point of being basically automatic

[compact quail]

yes ALs dont matter in ang2.0
shackles could bring you down to 0AL and instead increase the stats on anguish gear and it'd be the same

[modern saffron]

is anguished raids giving no proof of felling a feature or a bug?

[hallow dune]

They matter after the shackles come off. Just higher Tiered players will feel it longer and you can't go past certain ang unless you have certain ALs

[modern saffron]

if you can al each class 5 times costs are close to 0 and they add up for the anguish threshold

[hallow dune]

Wasnt aware of compounding ALs. Kinda neat

Even more so to get closer to no shackles

[compact quail]

it removes the ability to keep doing content at the pace that you want
in ang1.0 you grow your AL endlessly and can set your anguish level to have whatever success rate you want (with enough ALs you'll have 100% success in anguish 50)

now in ang2.0 with shackles applied you dont ever get to increase your success rate
without shackles you dont get good rewards for your time
i admit that it's fun in the beginning but that tends to wear out very fast

[tardy juniper]

Maybe the infinite AL inflation madness is coming to a halt and that's a good thing in my books. I like the fact this new system means we will have to team up to kill off some hard bosses. Make Orna the 'MMO GPS RPG' be an MMO again and let everybody in a team get some different roles like buffer, healer, tank, dps, debuffer, etc...

[zenith matrix]

Party is fun and a good thing, im very looking forward to it myself

Anguish "having to be done" in a party (looking at raids) is not

At least in my opinion

[hallow dune]

How my whole kingdom feels

[tardy juniper]

well, I guess most people will be able to get to a certain level of anguish and then we will be kinda forced to go 'team effort mode' with more reward for that type of gameplay

[hallow dune]

Sir your shackles are never coming off

[tardy juniper]

so you can do both maybe?

[modern saffron]

so wait the developers supply various options to farm mats easier than ever, targeted mats to go over AL mat blocks, making pursuing AL easier than ever, and now that's "inflation madness that has to stop" after the whole guild system has been made on purpose for AL to be more accessible?

[hallow dune]

Think they mean it's not all about ALs to just steamroll everything anymore as it was never intended.

[compact quail]

it's a good thing that party play will becore the meta for anguish horde dungeons
but what about the majority of players who liked to ascend and have a sense of progression?

[hallow dune]

Being able to currently do ang50 was never intended

[modern saffron]

if it's endless scaling in anguish 2.0 you won't be able to "just steamroll everything" at some point, which is very different though from requiring 20 min to do a raid

[tardy juniper]

Well, this is not the place to argue about ALs, because we've done so much yesterday in the refineries channel to be honest. And to me, it never was a good intended system... it was a way to vent your mats and a sink hole but it got out of hand because of a lot of reasons. Odie tried to rationalise that by giving alternatives and fun content with guilds

[compact quail]

it was 100% intended, people did that in beta and it still wasnt changed

[tardy juniper]

but I am happy if shackles means people will have to team up and do a real MMO

[hallow dune]

Which is good, as long as my 20min raids gives me reward for effort

Just like an raid in any MMO

[modern saffron]

so 50% chance of ornate

so another game, not a game where you are supposed to farm 200 scrolls

and have a 0.5% chance right?

[upper meadow]

If 50 chance of ornate im accept with the hp scaling

[modern saffron]

because if you are supposed by design and event construction and drop rates to kill 100s of raids

[upper meadow]

But if you need to farm another 200 for ornate

[hallow dune]

Yeah 50% of an ornate but it could be shit roll and shit anguish roll. That's the chance at that level

[tardy juniper]

Nah, I wouldn't want 50% if I'm honest, going for 5% would be already cool

[upper meadow]

With this stupid hp scaling

[modern saffron]

how the actual hell can you be required to spend 20 min per raid at the endgame, not as fresh t10

[modern saffron]

instead it's 0.5 ornate now so

you agree the current system is absurd?

[hallow dune]

At super high end anguish yes

[tardy juniper]

the current system makes sense with our current situation

[modern saffron]

super high?

[tardy juniper]

because we steamroll on everything

[hallow dune]

Just meaning 2.0 high end anguish should reward well for how hard it is, is all

[modern saffron]

do you realize it's 5min and high chance of death vs a morri at anguish 5 yes?

[hallow dune]

Yes

People realize it's day 2 of the beta right and things will change? Lol

[tardy juniper]

which is good, AMorri was never intended to be one shot in the first place, she is the highest hardest boss...

[modern saffron]

for 0.5% ornate, and 25% anguish gear so 0.125% anguished gear, for standard, the purple is lower than that?

[hallow dune]

Sorry 3

[modern saffron]

ok so here it's feedback and

we are indicating this stuff has to change dramatically because it's unplayable lol

[hallow dune]

Unplayable and tweaks are different.

[modern saffron]

unplòayable like it requires a 1/10 time to clear

like it's already tedious to farm now to check higher anguish with massively increased drop rates

[tardy juniper]

Just to have an idea, what class and build are you using to clear Amorri in higher anguish? very curious because I saw how pen scaling is impacting beowulf for example

[modern saffron]

i am al 180 gs

so bp so malus don't even apply

[tardy juniper]

AH yeah yesterday I tried BP with GS 40

it was surprisingly not bad

[modern saffron]

and no shackles on

[upper meadow]

0.5% for ornate, and you need to kill 200 Hippo with 800million hp for 1 ornate

[hallow dune]

People got too used to the game being how easy it is imo and now everyone doesn't want change. Especially high ends ALs because their ALs are infective until a certain point which I get. I agree with both sides. Tweak down the difficulty a bit and fix some maluses and reward people for dumb hard content. All which can be fixed during a beta

[upper meadow]

Imagine it

And there is chance you didnt get the ornate you want

[tardy juniper]

Imagine I killed 600 boss for an ornate spiked shield across 2 events 😛

[upper meadow]

So 600？1200？or more

[hallow dune]

You got a SGS from raids? I had to monument it lol

[upper meadow]

With 800 million hp

[tardy juniper]

yeah and I was THAT lucky it was 199

[upper meadow]

I kill 1400 raid average a event.

Do anyone kill more than me？

[modern saffron]

is this intended or bug? check hp

[hallow dune]

Oh no, now you sound like Minh

[modern saffron]

after first summon attacks

[hallow dune]

You know you get more when the actual rewards show up?

[modern saffron]

check the video, raid hp goes from 22m to 10.6m

[tardy juniper]

hang on, you don't kill off plenty of skeletons to go higher in stats? you don't summon 5 pets before pact??

[modern saffron]

before i damage it, i am asking if it's a bug

[tardy juniper]

heresy!

[hallow dune]

Oh disregard thought it was a rewards post thing, from the current topic

[modern saffron]

lol no

[tardy juniper]

I guess with your AL it's fine

[modern saffron]

i am gs not gsh, gsh doesn't have ascended summons

hard to report bugs if i don't know if they are bugs

[hallow dune]

Post in the bugs discussion, seems like one

[modern saffron]

because i don't know how the feature should be

maybe it does that because no shackles on

let me try with shackles

[hallow dune]

No reason it would lose 12m first turn on snotra haha

[modern saffron]

it looks like

it reverts as if anguish was 0

because i think that's his hp at 0 anguish

[tardy juniper]

Actually I had that yesterday and I thought I was being silly and I was back on a raid I already hit without noticing

[upper meadow]

I just kill 1.2k about Apo X+ Y now

If 2.0 their hp scaling, without boost of ornate drop

I dont think im able to make it.

[hallow dune]

No idea how those would even work in 2.0 with the current system lol

Or Arisen Waygates for that matter

[proper dagger]

Party play may be good, but its a open world game with different time zones, so get the right friends with equal anguish lvl in same timezone or deal with different timezones and a play delay due to a lot of player

And kingdom raids are not affected by anguish 2.0 iirc or?

[maiden sierra]

When were the highlighted specs added?

[neat glacier]

In this beta

[maiden sierra]

I see, are these specs final and will be released in live orna or will exist only in beta?

[fierce island]

They arent final necessarily

[cunning pulsar]

Finished: Probably
Will come live? Expect the two elementalist spec i think yes

[fierce island]

But they're part of allegiances

You unlock them via guild trees

[maiden sierra]

I'm mostly interested in the anguished one, could really use that hp boost for some builds

[cunning pulsar]

You'll need to reach guild level 100 in anguish for that

*the new anguish guild

[spring ice]

Let me optimize it for 12k dex

[maiden sierra]

Something like this or with GUrsa

[spring ice]

PvP is going to be something forsure, but we're not supposed to bring that up 😬

[cinder bronze]

Erm is kingdom menu working in beta?

[compact rover]

Is that a Selene plushie ?!

It's too much cuteness I can handle

[valid raven]

Can you share spelunker as well please? (I haven't scrolled down yet in case it has been shared)

[valid raven]

Thank you, but I wonder what a spelunking quest is, new content?

[cunning pulsar]

Probably just deep dungeons rewards

[viscid bloom]

Look at Prometheus plushie

[valid raven]

Hmmm

[viscid bloom]

Mother might be a competitor for Chat noir for me

Mother plush

[hushed berry]

Probably just a typo.

[keen timber]

I would unironically love this. I love playing buff/heal bot in games.

[compact rover]

Me too, but truly healing in the game is very ... underwhelming

Needs to be buffed

[hushed berry]

/suggest Overhealing gives temporary hit points

[compact rover]

could be a very cool passive for a spec

however when you heal 1500 HP with Pray III, you won't go far in Anguish

[proper dagger]

with shackeld AL and only 7-11k hp its more than 10% of heal

[gray solar]

In regards to the conversation above from earlier

I have absolutely zero interest in a system without shackles. If the shackles go away, I wont be engaging in the system at all. Everything in the game is already entirely trivialized by the broken AL system.

Id like to have one piece of content that doesn't have its entire existence revolve around playing as fast as possible to farm more mats to farm faster to farm even more mats to farm even faster. Yall wanted an infinite AL system. The price of that is content that adds restrictions to maintain difficulty

Im also tired of the bad argument that ALs suddenly dont matter, which is objectively untrue. You can still go faceroll every piece of content in the game, other than anguish 2.0. And your ALs are still going to help clear new anguish as well. If you'd actually playtested, you'd know that

[compact rover]

10% on 4 people is meh, usually, it's better to heal one player in critical condition
Or at least make it scale with your HP/Magic, like Life Pact from summoners

In some games, you can cast a special buff that prevent a player from fainting, but keep its life at 1 and remove the status, similar to a Second Chance temporary status

[latent karma]

Something like reraise as a channeled move could be cool

[proper dagger]

group dungeons is something for itself, getting the right people with similar ang lvl, same timezone (otherwise timezone difference has to be taken into account), time to do dungeons for a certain time without disruption, i think thats a special way to go for a "solo" handy game

[compact quail]

ALs only matter in 2.0 only because they are required for the next level. The fact that you're shackled down and can't get any stronger at any given anguish level should (imo) be a separate option that give more rewards to the players that choose to do so.

But other players who dont wanna play with shackles on have a fraction of the rewards, so essentially you either give up AL or dont and play for fun.
I'm not saying fun isn't bad, but many other players wanted the motivation to grow stronger.

[keen timber]

There's an ability on my main class in FF14 which says, essentially, "Cast this on a target. If at any point in the next 45 seconds the target's HP falls below 50%, the target automatically gets a big heal and then the spell fades from the target."

Could easily do something like that. Just change "45 seconds" to "9 turns" or something like that.

[gray solar]

The motivation to grow stronger still exist, both through anguish gear and the continued ability to extra one tap everything else on the game

There also hits a point where unless your AL 200, you're going to need more ALs to unlock higher anguish. The easiest way around this is to put ALs in every class, because the anguish system takes the sum of ALs not the max

So for a huge portion of the playerbase, unlocking the new anguish 40 will likely be done at an AL lower than shackles, making each AL gained on the main class a boost to their current grind

And again, letting players run into anguish 2.0 with full ascension power just invalidates most of the challenge and grind right away.

Why bother farming anguish gear when I can farm another 20 ascensions to brute force the new difficulty

Why come up with new strategies to handle the malus combo when I can go and press chained shield for a month and come back and brute force it instead

[latent karma]

To me its more natural to be gated than your achieved strength by arbitrary number, I want it to be hard but just playing for multiple months to 'catch up' to myself is a little disheartening. Gear is still a 3% increase + additional bonuses while Al would be 1%.

I would rather incentivize playing at a reduced level than heavily disincentivize playing at your own. And granted that's just an economic adjustment but feels bad.

If you're making better strategies you can outpace AL and feasibly than begin progressing faster than someone who strictly relies on AL, but seems like there is a point, in the current iteration where gear and strategy don't exactly cut it.

[modern saffron]

The AL the game uses to allow you to increase anguish is the sum of all classes AL so it is trivial to increase it

You probably don't realize the vast majority of the player base won't ever be able to farm anguish 25 with current numbers never mind 40

Maybe they will be able to do a raid in 13 tries if they are so inclined. Farming? No

[upbeat steeple]

yeah but good luck cleaning anguish while being 50 AL under the min requirement

[gray solar]

A majority of the playerbase wont even make it to ascension 25, and yet we still didn't cap ascensions because people wanted infinite grind

Shackles are the cost of that

[modern saffron]

There is no cost, just intentionality of punishing us

Just make shackles extra rewards instead of no rewards without shackles

[gray solar]

Nobody is being punished

Find a better argument

[proper dagger]

why build up a "complete" new anguish gear tree, give instead a chance of 1 stat of the existing gear to get an anguish boost

[compact quail]

would you be ok with players that dont shackle to earn 50% of the rewards instead of 5%?

[modern saffron]

You don't want us to be able to farm quick to farm better

For us that's the whole game purpose

[latent karma]

After a certain point anguish feasibly will just use your own AL, so I don't see the benefit to capping in the short term.

[upbeat steeple]

Extra reward is the same as less reward for the other side you know x)

[gray solar]

50% is enough to just turn on full ALs all the time, so no

[modern saffron]

And anguish 1 is being nerfed to death and that's a punishment, a heavy one

[gray solar]

Really? Everytime anything changes in the game is a punishment? Spiked shield nerf is a punishment? Crit nerf is a punishment? Apolloyon event changing is a punishment?

Its not. Find a better argument

[modern saffron]

Everytime a whole game loop gets nerfed 80% for resource accumulation after being in the game for a long time it's a punishment

And here we are talking all dungeons lol

And all world farminf

Being nerfed massively

[gray solar]

Oh I see, so Odie is taking away your ALs and making you refarm them at 80% reduced effectiveness

I guess I missed those patch notes

[modern saffron]

Farming after the patch comes, if it comes with these numbers

[junior matrix]

I imagine you are referring to world bosses in Aethric, which I don't believe the Orna community will be too sympathetic about. You shouldn't be able to farm Ang50 content that easily

[modern saffron]

Is 70%-80% less proof of anguish per time spent

[gray solar]

Then fix the cost of proofs

[modern saffron]

World bosses can be farmed at anguish in orna as well, see star drop farming at anguish 50

Or memory remains in bulk

[junior matrix]

it's definitely not the same

[modern saffron]

It's quicker with remains yes

[upbeat steeple]

Remains are 25% reduced rewards I think

[modern saffron]

I know because in HOA I make more orns/hour with remains than basic world

As I don't have to move

[gray solar]

Stop trying to invalidate the challenge of new content before its out (and before you've even tested it)

Focus on making the challenge worth it, via increased proof acquisition, material cost reduction, or improved allegiance rewards

Which, conveniently, there is a whole thread about!

Also, stop bringing HoA into this server

[modern saffron]

The patch is going to be the same

And as I said the remains exist in orna

[proper dagger]

its almost the same game with the same changes...

[gray solar]

And? The loops and playerbase are wildly different

[modern saffron]

And you can buy them in shop so

[junior matrix]

the Ang 1.0 "nerf" in Aethric is due to infinite bosses - it's specifically an Aethric thing which should really remain over in the Aethric threads

[modern saffron]

Loop is more dungeons in orna which makes nerfing Ang 1 worse

No Odie it's about dungeons as well

It's a nerf to have 2m HP mammons

A massive nerf

[uncut rampart]

This is actually something interesting.

The playerbases are increasingly different. I don't have any data on it, but I would imagine that Orna players are much more receptive to nerfs/much more looking for difficulty in their gameplay than HoA players. (Not to say Orna players are in love with difficulty, but the delta between the two games is seemingly large.)

[junior matrix]

i think we have wildly different definitions of the word "nerf", for sure

[modern saffron]

Nerfing a strategy: make it much harder to achieve the same outcome

If time required increases a lot to clear it is a nerf

[hybrid sluice]

This is also relevant for ang 1.0 FWIW; I think all the costs are matching the 2.0 shop costs

Beta 1.0 vs live 1.0

[junior matrix]

#1370416842065313852 message for HP in Anguish 1.0

[proper dagger]

i understand some of the ideas of anguish gear, but why not giving existing armors stat by stat the change to change to anguish stat rather than getting (farming) the new anguish gear, which is more hard

and chaning stat by stat is sure quite slowly with a certain successrate for an anguish stat

[latent karma]

Its a complicated web of issues here as far as economy, difficulty etc. but from my perspective, its just not a good feeling to not be able to grind through a challenge and I thought it was fun with the original system as well. Getting those extra gear pieces I needed or extra AL to push up more anguish felt good. Adding more difficulty and an additional 'gear treadmill' feels like a very fun idea. I'm a little hesitant to say we should be locked in a AL while we get new gear and develop new strategies, because then we are more beholden to the current event, current meta strategies for progression.

[proper dagger]

farming all the gear over the last year was not always that easy, now again or pay again mf/df/gf mat prices/time again

[latent karma]

Personally I just think its not a good idea to keep anguish 1. Could that be a poll option?

[junior matrix]

it'll need to be phased out, but players need time to spend their proofs, etc. it won't be an immediate option to nuke it

[latent karma]

Yeah I think keeping the shop available for a time would be fine, I just am worried about it being the meta option if incentives don't align immediately. Especially because the new system is very cool

[hybrid sluice]

Ang 2.0 is not as enticing as it could be atm. There are a lot of people that don't see it as a worthwhile grind

[proper dagger]

maybe somehow because farming a lot a second time (inclusive the existing event/raid gear)

[slow sand]

What does it mean moving the scaling? No scaling on hp and increase the dex of enemies?

[gray solar]

This is good feedback, and something id partially agree with.

Anguish 2 is really, really hard. And currently, unless the player likes difficulty for the sake of difficulty, the rewards aren't really enticing at all

The solution to this though is to make the rewards better

The solution is not nerfing/removing shackles/etc (not that you are proposing this, im just hijacking your comment)

[proper dagger]

if it would only be the difficulty, i have some problems with it to farm all the gear a second time or to gf all the gear a second time

if it would be cheaper in term of mats, ok no problem, but again 1500-2k mats for the same gear which is already lvl 13 is way to much

[gray solar]

Do you have problems farming new gear when a new event comes out?

Did you have problems refarming pumpkinless last October when 1 new piece of gear was added?

[proper dagger]

no, because i dont have the gear, but farming the same gear again a second time to have it or lose the mats with which i gf it

thats a big difference

[hybrid sluice]

I think the difficulty also seems out of hand. Nobody wants to take hours to finish one raid unless the rewards are crazy

[gray solar]

You dont have the gear currently either.

Nobody has an anguish 50 pumpkinless chest

Just like nobody had a beguiled Katar Y until a few days ago

[hybrid sluice]

And some content just seems straight up impossible

Who's gonna farm thousands of pumpkinless at ang 50?

[gray solar]

I'll farm a thousand at and and upgrade it 25 times

Or whatever

[proper dagger]

i have pumpkinless chest, i can make my gf chest ang 50, but have to mf/df/gf it again, or i farm it on ang50 and mf/df/gf it than, its the same end

[junior matrix]

This is a beta, and an intent of the beta is to ensure that difficulty, rewards, and all parameters are in a good state before shipping.

That said, please don't take the current state as the final product. difficulty+maluses need tweaks, shackles are likely too penalizing, etc. Lots to come

[hybrid sluice]

Who's gonna sink tens of thousands of solarite to demonwork their existing pieces

[upbeat steeple]

The same people that are doing the same for AL?

[hybrid sluice]

Totally - but this is the feedback we are giving

[proper dagger]

is cost again the same mats if have paid for the exact same gear..
when i want to have it a second time, thats something else..

[hybrid sluice]

On one single piece of gear that only applies in anguished content?

[proper dagger]

since mats are almost everything, look at refinnery's, the 1.5-2k mats hurts a lot

[hybrid sluice]

Repeat it for each item for each build for each class

[latent karma]

I mean just a rough example but let's say the top meta strategy suddenly required certain event restricted pieces. I would vastly prefer a person to AL their way out of it than have to wait 6-12 months for a chance at progression. Sure new strategies can be developed but I think its way more restrictive and depending on timing/releases

[upbeat steeple]

People with multi classes are also paying more for AL

And you can choose what you want to ugrade, you can always upgrade cheapest gear, if it is enough to clear content

[gusty basalt]

I got my dirty hands on the beta and I am grinding through the base levels. And I love the hp scaling in dungeons! So fun to see big bars and achieving the gains there

[modern saffron]

Losing what you already have is almost always infinitely worse than having the option to get something new, that's a very strongly replicated finding in psychometry

[modern saffron]

I can do math though. Anguish 50 gear scales *150%. Gear isn't the only source of stats though so roughly even with gear at anguish 50 you have double stats + the gear passives. That's going to translate in at most 1/3 the time required, more probably 40%. Which means 20-30+ minutes lol anyway

[junior matrix]

make sure you vote 🙂

#1370416842065313852 message

[uncut rampart]

I really enjoy how neck-and-neck that hp v. dex scaling poll is.

In some sense it doesn't matter too much, the two values are multiplied for enemy eHP.
I went with big HP because I like that it's a little more granular and visible, compared to dodge which is stochastic and hidden.

[junior matrix]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychometry_(paranormal) ?

[modern saffron]

They don't multiply eHP it is completely different. Because with AOE extra turns the eventual miss is auto fixed much more often, you don't get hit much more often, it's not even vaguely comparable in dungeons

[gray solar]

Yes, because people aren't capable of controlling their emotions and critical thinking

As we've seen in very thread, where Odie is making a new system that is better for the game as a whole, and people are clutching their pearls over perceived losses.

Imagine the outcry if Odie actually took something away

[modern saffron]

😅

Bwubble the current beta removes a massively used game content for many people, or make it a lot harder for others (anguish dungeon)

[uncut rampart]

in HoA*

[modern saffron]

No in orna as well

[compact quail]

in both games lol

[modern saffron]

Anguish 50 will be harder guys

With HP scaling

Slower to finish higher chance of failing

[uncut rampart]

removes a massively used game content for many people
what is this referring to? (cc @modern saffron @compact quail)

[modern saffron]

Dungeons at anguish

[uncut rampart]

Ang50 world bossing, right? 😅

[modern saffron]

Not even only 50

All anguish

Threshold to complete grows

Also anguish monuments it's done

[compact quail]

yeah horde dungeons and towers at a higher anguish level

[modern saffron]

I know not many ppl do anguish monuments

Tower isn't touched as hp already scales

As far as I understand

[proper dagger]

the ratio went a bit down due to the new anguish hp scaling

[modern saffron]

What new?

[proper dagger]

no

[compact quail]

My biggest problem is with the shackles/reward.
If i want to keep using my AL it's not worth activating anguish.

A 50% penalty would be more than fair imo.

[gray solar]

Its not though

Full rewards with 28% boost to stats
Or half rewards with (infinite) boost to stats

Which is better?

Cause in every instance the meta is to ignore shackles and just blast away

[compact quail]

the new maluses also increase the difficulty by alot

it's not just a matter of stats

[gray solar]

And?

The more stats, the less the maluses punish you

[compact quail]

hence the penalty

[gray solar]

28% extra stats and maluses is way harder than
Infinite extra stats and maluses

Im never going to be ok with a system that turns the meta into ignoring the shackles

The better solution is to improve the rewards from using the shackles, which based on messaging from Odie today seems to be in the plans

[compact quail]

that's all i hope for

[gray solar]

Then id like to show you the allegiance thread 🙂
https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1369753426120147084

Give ideas!

Maybe we bring back Ode to the Dungeon as the 200 reward

[keen timber]

Nice! I'm still waiting on a mirror, since I think my feedback will be much more useful if I test as my low-t10, low-AL, mediocre-geared self than some buffed-up Dara I whipped up. After all, a lot of players are going to be coming into this in a similar state as I am right now, and I bet most of the beta testers are t11s.

I've already voted but may change my votes after experiencing it.
(Also, this isn't a subtle jab. I know mirrors take time, and Dangy is busy. Take your time.)

[compact quail]

that's not what i had in mind when i read this

improve the rewards from using the shackles

i was thinking about odie's comment above

shackles are likely too penalizing

[latent karma]

I just think it feels a little backwards to present anguish 2 as a system to accommodate the difficulty needs for infinitely ascending players, and then say we accommodated infinite scaling by not letting you use it for full rewards.

In the short term it just acts as brakes on the early game before the players get to play at their own eventually level.

[uncut rampart]

"Fast forwarding" might be amenable, as a stretch goal for ang2.0?

I'm a long-term player so in some sense it's just a blip of time to me, but I can see how players that have been playing for 1 year and are now saddled with months/a year of backlogged re-progression could be flummoxed.

[keen timber]

As a person who's been playing for (essentially) a year, I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at?

[uncut rampart]

When ang2.0 starts, you'll be anguish level 0 and have to work your way up to the anguish level appropriate for your ascension level.
That process may take quite some time (exact numbers are up in the air; tbd in this beta afaict).

I'm saying the relative amount of total playtime to get through that process is much larger for newer players than older ones.

[keen timber]

Ah, okay. I see the concern.

I feel like, for me, it's just going to be one of those things I level up as I play, and don't necessarily "go out of my way to grind"

That's basically how I use Anguish now

I know there will be anguish-specific content like anguish raids, but tbf I don't raid much anyway

I'll probs just set my Despair and Melancholy paths and then play like I usually do

[latent karma]

To me its like if my gym said you guys are getting strong so we ordered heavier weights and then they got here and told me I had to lose 100 lbs and prove I could lift the light stuff again first.

[uncut rampart]

It's exacerbated by how much of a grinder the player is relative to their playtime.
If someone got AL100 in one year, and AL100 is something like anguish 25, and it takes a year to level up to anguish 25...

[junior matrix]

to present an alternate take:

Why would the difficulty guild reward allow you to remove the difficulty?

Should we be also removing the fishing from the fishing guild?

Traveling from the traveling guild?

Your accrued ascension still matters - that's a progression requirement of Anguish that you don't need to worry about. and you're still bringing an increasing amount of your ascension into each level

granted, i'll be lessening the penalty of unshackled. so then you can still smash out content at AL 1billion - just don't expect the game to give max rewards for it

[vital path]

You can only get proofs of melancholy from bosses, like in 1.0?

Already done a few horde dungeons and still no proofs

At anguish 1

[compact quail]

any T10 enemy

dont worry it also took me 6 dungeons for the first proof

[vital path]

I see

[latent karma]

Because I think for a lot of the playerbase difficulty presents as 'how hard is it at my current progression level?' Its not a criticism but feel like in any tbrpg where you're playing just one character you're inherently capped on strategic options. I don't see the harm in being able to 'muscle' past these levels. Particularly if the live version requires us to amass proof.

I think there are 'good difficulty' in anguish 2, having to react to permanent buffs falling off is a really good example that requires players to pay attention, in beta I was making a habit to make sure I buffed at floor 15 rather than 1 and then heavily monitoring my buffs. But having to play the early game with one arm behind my back doesn't feel great. I want it to be hard because it challenges my character, not the character I was 3 years ago.

But I'll see what any changes to shackles bring, it felt restrictive on beta. I'm more interested in what the levels 'designed for my AL' bring. But again, I think you should be able to progress through brain, luck or brawn.

[uncut rampart]

On one hand: I like the process of working up through the shackles, starting from something difficult (shackled-low ALs) and increasing the difficulty through the addition of maluses. It's good gameplay.

On the other hand: The long-term steady states are:

• the player is AL-limited on anguishing up, in which case they just need to play more pve of any content to keep ascending
• anguish has overtaken the player, and they're grinding out small anguish gear wins and trying new strategies to push farther.

These steady states both feel like great gameplay as well, and where people will eventually end up. It's not the end of the world if the "working up through anguish" phase takes longer or shorter. Not sure how to communicate that to the strawman AL100 1-year player effectively, though, without scaring him to death.

[gray solar]

What im learning from this thread is that the current community would have collectively been traumatized for life if they had to deal with the original arisen morrigan release

Having the raid take multiple attempts over the course of 3-5 hours would apparently have been the equivalent of shooting their dog

[latent karma]

Having a raid take multiple attempts is great and fine, provided its because its hard content and not because I'm handicapped

[hallow dune]

Wouldn't care if I'm handicapped as long as the rewards are worth it

[gray solar]

The only way to make hard content in modern orna is to handicap the player

Nobody wants anything nerfed, ever
Nobody wanted acsensions to be capped or adjusted, ever
Nobody wants systems that restrict player progression, ever

[latent karma]

That plays into it for sure

[gray solar]

Again, the shackles are the result of the communiry refusing to ever address player power in any way

This is the outcome

[hallow dune]

Wait were playing Orna? Thought it was swansong idle. Tap tap tap

[latent karma]

Anguish 1 was a hard system until we out scaled it. You don't need to make someone weaker to make harder emergent gameplay.

[gray solar]

Anguish 1 level 50 was cleared the first week

So no

[latent karma]

Ok well I couldn't clear it first week

[gray solar]

And again

Anguish 1 level 50 was cleared the first week.

Some of us wanted the builds nerfed and/or anguish adjusted

The community revolted at that idea

And now we are here

[latent karma]

I had to grind up, get new gear, unlock specs. And that was a fun and rewarding journey

[gray solar]

And despite it being cleared the first week, we continued to see more power creep that made it even easier, to the point that it can currently be cleared at AL0

[quartz girder]

Has the weapon’s mana now been scaled according to its quality?

[latent karma]

And the community has continued to be in favor of infinite power. Why say we will accommodate that power by heavily restricting its use in the primary system it will be useful?

[gray solar]

Because a system that is designed for challenge can't accommodate infinite power

The design goal of anguish is to put something back in the game that is more complex than an idle clicker

[gray solar]

This is also exactly what anguish 2 will be, but none of that can be brute forced through ascensions

[compact quail]

I dont think anyone here was saying that the journey to their max anguish is the problem.

Let's imagine this very likely scenario: You play for 1 year and unlock your ang40 level. But decide that it's too hard/takes too much time/maluses are too annoying/whatever reason...

What options do you have?

1. dont use anguish = 0 rewards (as opposed to anguish 1.0)
2. don't use shackles + a lower anguish level = 5% rewards (as opposed to anguish 1.0)
3. use shackles + lower level = full rewards but you wasted all this time + your ALs are useless for this

All 3 options feel bad for the player like they're losing out.
And I know that 50% rewards when you dont use shackles will make everyone with high AL use it instantly, but to make sure they take the journey fairly we could do this:
The 50% penalty only applies if your maximum unlocked anguish level does not prompt the "shackles" button.

[latent karma]

By the same token I really dont even agree with AL requirements on the Anguish levels. If player A is a strategic, optimally geared player and wants to punch up 5 Anguish above what is expected of him for more rewards great. If a guy is a big dummy but wants to pass the difficulty by playing at an anguish 5 levels less than whats expected, great. The player's response to the difficulty should govern their progress, not artificial thresholds.

[keen timber]

Honestly, I’m looking forward to this because I enjoy a challenge and my current max anguish (13) isn’t providing it. I can utterly steamroll all dungeons, even VotG. (Tested that yesterday.)

I‘ve put every Proof Ive ever got into upgrading my max anguish level, but the process is slow and frankly a bit boring. It’ll be nice to have some challenge while grinding.

For me, it’s about the journey, not the destination. I may not get to A50 on 2.0, and that’s great!

[uncut rampart]

If players aren't into challenge, that's what all the rest of the game content is about. Non-anguished towers, dungeons, raids, etc. If those things feel trivial at AL100, well they were also trivial at AL50 and AL20 too. Players ascended themselves past pve, which is what they said they wanted.

Anguish1 had mistakes; it was never supposed to be about ignorable "extra difficulty" (read: enemy stats that don't matter because they still die in one hit; content only attempted once the player had sufficiently ascended past them) in exchange for bonus rewards. NF has spoken directly to these mistakes on multiple occasions.

[latent karma]

But I think Anguish 2 already presents challenge in ways that require more reactive gameplay than Anguish 1, without neutering the character. Buffs/Debuffs falling off is a good example. Just the switch to larger health pools instead of dex renders 'AFK BoF/CD/Avidity' type builds way less reliable and mystic feather/redline mobs more dangerous. More ult damage would require more active blocking. I think you would have to be WELL below an appropriate anguish level to ever make the new system ignorable.

[uncut rampart]

How would you feel about a malus that said "ascension stats are X% less effective"? Is it the same problem/same feeling, or is that different somehow?

[latent karma]

Thats probably a bit more pallateable, but still not a great fix imo, and would play out in different ways. Likely, it would now be less effective in the early Ang, where were currently more limited, and more effective later when maluses build up. As I havent experienced high end anguish its hard to say with certainty. ITs similar to saying "Anguish bonuses on gear are X% effective," strategy, gearing and AL seem to be the ways the game encourages people to push forward.

[uncut rampart]

• Reduced the maximum penalty of Ascension Shackles from 95% to 75%
  Does anyone know the crossover point with this? When does anguished content pay out 4x non-anguished content?

[junior matrix]

it's 1% reduction in rewards for each ascension level beyond the threshold you go

[uncut rampart]

Right, but if the maximum is 1/4, and anguish level X gives 4x rewards, then a player that can one-shot X can stay on that anguish level and get more rewards than not engaging with anguish at all. Then certainly every anguish level after X is just free resources (akin to Anguish 1.0).

Mostly I don't know what X is, or if that's attainable/reasonable.

[gray solar]

I really think lessening the shackles penalty is going to result in a less than desirable meta that fux is describing above

25% rewards is already enough to turn on anguish, 1 shot whatever you can, and ignore the system beyond that

[latent karma]

Though I could probably optimize gear more, I am not able to AFK anymore, even with full 187 AL, while in Ang 22. I wont have the rewards start to incease for another 8? Anguish. I'm sure theres an 'Efficiency threshold' but I dont think its at any point where content will be trivial. I could in theory play at like 10 anguish and have a 1% proof rate, but is that really an issue?

[modern dragon]

Not gonna lie this whole 2.0 system just looks like a giant roadblock to my progression. Maybe in 6-12 months when I have all my anguish gear fully upgraded it'll start to feel like I'm progressing again but I'm not sure I want to wait that long

[hybrid sluice]

To whom is that less desirable?

[gray solar]

Anybody that wants the system to be a designed challenge and not a free rewards system

So basically me and fux

[junior matrix]

what are you being blocked from doing? you'll be progressing right away

[hybrid sluice]

You can go to higher anguish though

Are you concerned it will feel bad because it's not as efficient for the rewards?

[gray solar]

Im really against the idea that with 25% available the meta for farming anguish gear is going to be turn off shackles and eat the penalty for anguish gear that is potentially 10 or 15 levels higher than with shackles

Which immediately defeats the entire point of the system

[hybrid sluice]

What is the point of the system in your eyes? To make progression slower?

[modern dragon]

Not in ascension

[gray solar]

Its a long form content grind designed to be challenging

What yall want is an ascension acceleration system

[hybrid sluice]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying bwubble

[junior matrix]

penalty could be higher for proofs/gear i suppose

[junior matrix]

what is preventing you from ascending?

[uncut rampart]

To create a durable pve difficulty that preserves enjoyable gameplay (such as: needing to look at the screen while clearing a dungeon), in a world with infinite ascension.

[gray solar]

For scope Odie, im crawling through an ang 22 towers right now with minimal difficulty with shackles on

If I pull shackles off its definitely going to be ~4x faster, and i can go higher

Its slow, but im not gonna die

No shackles and im zooming(ish)

Expect a post in the towers thread when either I cap out, or im working through a 30

[serene bluff]

I think shackles is a game equalizer - I do think the penalty should be lessened or allow levels of shackle instead of completely turning it off, maybe even give more of a buff the harder you go into a shackle - instead of a flat shackle.

[junior matrix]

okay, then perhaps 25% is too high

[serene bluff]

So for instance I think the first shackle is AL14? Allow people to go down 2 levels up to 5 times (so AL4) or up 5 times to AL 24 and adjust rewards off that?

[compact quail]

that's a matter of what class you play, because even in live game anguish it's not safe for me as heretic to go higher than 20

[serene bluff]

I think Bwubble is a Gilga atm?

[gray solar]

I dont have any idea what this system looks like

But is it possible to seperate proof acquisition from gear acquisition/progression?

[serene bluff]

I feel a lot of people are looking at this strictly from a single class point of view and their level of AL, instead of holistically. That's where Odie and the team come in to balance that out.

[gray solar]

This would mean we need a seperate way to get demonforging tools, but it'd make everybody happy

[junior matrix]

penalties can be different for proofs/gear vs orns/exp boosts

[gray solar]

It doesn't restrict mat access for ALs, but you have to partake in shackles to progress

[gray solar]

Which this could be clearing the relevant content with shackles on, ala EoD rewards or titan drops

[serene bluff]

What about my idea of allowing shackles to scale?

[gray solar]

Im clearing higher towers in beta than I am in live

Anguish gear scaling is fun

And makes the spiked shield problem that much more prevalent, but more on that later

[serene bluff]

We have a full separate thread on SS

[gray solar]

Yeah i know, its also a PvP thread at this point 😅

[serene bluff]

So much for Odie's ask to keep it to Ang 2.0 and pve disucssion 😄

[gray solar]

To expand on this a bit

• Proof acquisition would be penalized via shackles, but less so than it is now. This maintains access to ascension progression for those who desire it
• anguish gear drop rate is set to 0% if you aren't using shackles. The gear is a self contained part of the guild, and if you dont want the challenge, you dont need it anyway

Gear upgrades (demon tools, whatever we get to add the passives) no longer cost proofs. They come from some other source like clearing the content with shackles on* (EoD rewards, titan drops) or from scrapping anguish gear (10 items = tools or something)

This way, people who want to solve everything with ascensions still can, while continuing to grind.

The people that want a challenge via the shackles still have a progression system to do so

@compact quail thoughts on a system like that ^

[full cape]

i dont understand. Aint "Slow" already enough of a massive nerf to our tower gameplay in a grindy game like orna ?

[gray solar]

Im not clearing for speed or character power, im doing it for the challenge

[compact quail]

ngl that sounds good

[full cape]

ok great, but 95+ % of the rest of the playerbase do it to farm

[gray solar]

Then turn off anguish and farm away

[latent karma]

Testing the current 25% changes, and think they are a bit more pallateable, but really dont see the concern about content becoming too easy. Even 10 anguish below where shackles would start to come off, I have to make decisions I havent had to make in a year in anguish 1.0. I think two definitions of difficulty are being conflated here and I think the way the system was presented in advance of release was more about "more weight' than 'more restriction.' And I don't think the curent iteration satifies that.

[modern dragon]

2.0 is a massive slowdown in ascension speed, come on now.

[full cape]

And i would loose a big amount if farm compared to ang1.0.

remind me : Ang1.0 will be choosable against Ang2.0 as conqueror did ?

[rustic escarp]

Good

[junior matrix]

due to acsension guild shop mats? aren't they generally regarded as too good anyway?

[latent karma]

TBF if Anguish isnt a 'meta' progression method, then the majority of content that is the best for progression is high attention and trivial, AKA the misery zone. Currently ang 0 towers and DMs are probably already higher efficiency than Ang 1.0 max efficiency dungeons. Not to say Ang 2.0 needs to be more efficient than those in the first day, week or even few months, but at some point the hardest, most attention calibrated content should be the most rewarding.

[modern dragon]

That in itself isn't a big deal, but it feels like it's limiting the kind of content I can do. I enjoy ang horde dungeons but I probably won't touch them after 2.0. The only other thing I like is towers and if that gets a heavy handed change well...

[modern saffron]

the "anguish has overtaken the player" , and there is nothing anymore you can do in the next 6-9-12 months to ever make meaningful progress, and the daily activities are a chore... is the nightmare we are trying to tell you would make a large portion of endgamers quit

because it's not like you can do lower anguish with decent return (given shackles)

[full cape]

Lets remove or cap at 50 ascencion guyz. Since it apparently is really important for ya all to slow it down as much as possible, why bother.

[uncut rampart]

And the "anguish has undertaken the player" (the current system) has also been a nightmare that has caused people to quit. AL for the sake of AL, number always going up, enemies never take a single relevant turn because even the highest difficulty was surpassed? It's a problem.

[fluid jungle]

i haven't had any meaningful gear upgrades in a long time and thus looking forward to make new progression in a new system

[junior matrix]

if you like ang horde right now, i'm sure you'll enjoy ang 2.0 horde as well - once you optimize and overcome the challenge

i believe in you 🙂

[modern saffron]

those aren't meaningful, you can buy AL in random classes for peanuts and overcome those limits (anguish counts your total AL , not the best class)

[full cape]

optimize and overcome the challenge, then get no real rewards for it 👍

[gray solar]

No rewards?

I must have missed that patch note too.

[modern saffron]

which is why you can offer the ultradifficult challenge THOSE people want to them without taking anything from others...

[junior matrix]

why are folk doing it in Ang 1.0 then?

[modern saffron]

because rewards are meaningful: proofs for ascension, making you always stronger

[junior matrix]

do proofs not exist in Ang 2.0?

[modern saffron]

they don't make you stronger

[latent karma]

Yeah, if theyre not meaningful why even have them?

[modern saffron]

you don't constantly clear the same stuff better

[junior matrix]

what?

[modern saffron]

you only access next hard step

we want to be able in X time invested to do the same thing better

that's why we play!

[junior matrix]

there's the same guild shop -> proofs for mats

[gray solar]

This is literally the ang 2 loop

Holy hell

[modern saffron]

imagine running 100 meters in 11 sec. You want to improve and run them better

you are saying that if you improve, either tou run 110 meters

or run 100 meters with 10 kg more on you

you don't always run 100 meters every time getting a better time

[full cape]

to complete the gameplay loop you created ? you know, farm > ascend > farm faster > loop.
but in anguish 1.0 you actually get real reward for climbing ang50 and being able to farm it efficiently

[modern saffron]

it isn't

in the anguish 2 loop , 6 months after i reach anguish 25, i don't clear anguish 25 far better

i am at anguish 29 or 33 or 37 always with some hard problems on me

it's like every time i pay my mortgage, the house increase but the payment increase

[pallid belfry]

I'd disagree that ang 1.0 gives real reward. 1.0 provides some benefits in certain areas, i.e tower shards, but it's severely lacking in most other areas.

[modern saffron]

while my whole goal is to end the mortgage and live free

[modern saffron]

3x orns, more shards which you mentioned, easy access to mnemonics if that0s your thing, and unlocking mat blocks for AL

[junior matrix]

no, that doesn't answer the question.

Ang 1.0 and Ang 2.0 have the same rewards (well, 2.0 has Allegience as well)

your point was that Ang 2.0 does not have rewards for overcoming the challenge

my question to you is why that sentiment doesn't apply to Anguish 1.0

[pallid belfry]

Orns are hardly an issue for high AL players. Fishing is more effective at mat farming than running angusih dungeons, especially considering how limited bosses are. Mnemonics are already plentiful and really shouldn't be considered a "reward"

[modern saffron]

one of the best feelings in the game is knowing that in say june 2024 you cleared some content in X time, and 6 months later, it takes one full turn less to do the same raid for the same rewards

for us at least

[junior matrix]

so...progression?

[modern saffron]

that's the feeling of progress, and AL gives that with minimal RNG (only the mat rng)

progression in clearing the same stuff better

not progression in terms of i got access to the n-th level of hell which is still something i can't play while watching a movie, distracted, as a relax in pause and so on

[junior matrix]

every game in the world gets harder as you progress. it's counter balanced to your growth

[modern saffron]

we don't crave a game that requires quality time and energy maybe that's the issue

this is a game that gives good feeling because you can sink in time when in betwen stuff, and slowly improve with a guarantee of improvement (everything you do will matter), and at the end of the year you have more than at the beginning

unlike life which doesn't guarantee you that

[junior matrix]

i generally do not believe you speak for the masses here, and this is just really missing the point of the guild

it's just not going to be for you, and that's okay

[latent karma]

The discussions around Anguish 2 were always presented in relation to testing the power through infinite AL. I think a lot of people were, justifiably, under the impression that it would be through 'more weight' than 'less power.' And requiring active gameplay is great, and the system already does that without limiting player power.

[serene bluff]

My entire approach to this game has always been about the return on time invested and turn efficiency. This is making the time longer and lacking the same return level. We still have to kill thousands of monsters and do thousands of instances to get what we want. Making that take longer and give less rewards is the problem.

[modern saffron]

this makes it infinite in the bad way tyrm

[serene bluff]

I agree with you

[modern saffron]

no matter how much you invest in it, it stays hard

you never get to the point where it's smooth and relaxing

[serene bluff]

We scale an average of 3% while the monsters scale an average of 60%

[modern saffron]

we scale 3% when all the gear is anguished and we keep 2 pairs of each using tools on them...

[serene bluff]

I still think my idea of allowing a scaling of the shackles would allow for individual tweaking to the hardness you are willing to accept but so far no one has agreed with that

[full cape]

ressources availability is split between multiple content / overall farming is incredibly harder because of maluses that keep you away from having more proof chances / and HP pool inflat will mean way more time to clear anything.

to summarize : at the best i can do ever with my character, i'll do it slower and with less rewards as before.

and so no, i disagree, Ang 1.0 and Ang 2.0 dont have the same rewards

[upper meadow]

When lot of player rather staying in Ang 1.0 without hp scaling, why forcing us to join 2.0？

Is the 1.0 ang guild broken or need to be fixed？

[gray solar]

So why play Orna?

The existence of this idle clicker meta has been less than half the games total life. Its not engaging at all, and there are plenty of games that do the "big numbers go up" better than Orna does, because that's how they were designed

Orna has never been meant to be that game. This is a long overdue course correction

[full cape]

i agree, but on the other hand Orna expect from you to kill a raid 400+ time to get a good quality item. That's really not compatible with increasing content's time requierement

[hallow dune]

No one's being forced, and it's not "a lot"

This game needs difficulty badly. We can tweak stuff but we need challenging content at some point or what is the point of anything besides sweep content we have a thousand times for nothing more than 1% of uneeded power

[gray solar]

There was a time where this was Orna. New raids came out, they were harder and took longer, and we all spent the extra time to get the better gear

The launch of arisen morrigan saw players taking multiple attempts, all 5-10 minutes long, to kill a single one

And nobody died, or was punished, or lost their thumbs, or was slapped in the face, or saw their time not respected. And seeing ornate arisen morri gear was a "wooooaaaaaahhhhh" moment. Massive dopamine

[uncut rampart]

Ornate raid gear was the ice cream truck, and we were all the dogs.
The gameplay was in the chase -- if anyone ever got the truck we had no clue what to do with it. 😅

[modern saffron]

I play HOA and it launched in late 2022

and this patch is going to be the same in both games so no I won't go away

anyway how are shackles going to work in party? has that been addressed?

[gray solar]

Then welcome to the block list.

This

we don't crave a game that requires quality time and energy maybe that's the issue

Is the exact opposite of what Orna should be, and nobody should be arguing for it

[modern saffron]

i think progression being capped by rng (as when you cannot farm enough of a raid because content is too hard to do a lot) is super terrible but maybe that's just me

[full cape]

i think ya all old folks really need that Orna vanilla to be a real thing

[hallow dune]

You can do it, it's just gonna take time

And if rewards get buffed a bit on that harder stuff like the poll asks then what's the big deal?

Sorry the hard work is too much for some people here

[modern saffron]

no if it requires 3-4 event rotations, the guy who got the crucial piece at the first rotation will farm better than me for 18 months and I can never catch up nooo thank you

hard work is ok if I can do it sometimes it's 100 raids sometimes it's 1000 but I can get my ornate

if it's 20 min per kill I can't unless lucky

[hallow dune]

This is a complex that you are guaranteed anything in this game. Sometimes you're going to miss out regardless.

[full cape]

IMO Grindy AF games arent supposed to aim at slowing down the grind as much as possible.

[hallow dune]

Missed out on SGS two rotations. It was oh well 🤷

[modern saffron]

not the way the game is now though

I can always get the piece within the event timeframe

i mean 99.99% probability

[junior matrix]

they're not really split, fyi. they rotate

it's been a common ask to be able to pick which proof you can use for a mat.

i would really say my point stands: the rewards are indeed the same, if not extremely comparable

[hallow dune]

Which is why it shouldn't be like this. Should never be guaranteed that drop. There's no joy in that

[modern saffron]

guaranteed in the sense that I can kill so many so quick I will be able to

anyway odie check party play shackles interactions

because they are going to be a big mess

[hallow dune]

I don't see how this update slows it down as much as possible. Slower but not immensely and it's Infinite so you're going to slow at some point

[upper meadow]

I wonder how much al you got. When you say the game is easy.

[fluid jungle]

last we tested it just picked option 1 i believe

[hallow dune]

100. It's been easy since I'd say 50-60

[fluid jungle]

@hushed berry might remember better

[junior matrix]

they're currently functional

[upper meadow]

How many years you take to 100 al？

[modern saffron]

what do you mean? so if party leader has shackles all ppl do otherwise none do?

[upper meadow]

Im 97 al in 7-8 month

[hallow dune]

5 years with breaks, I'm casual

[upper meadow]

Im heavy invest player

Any easy？

[fluid jungle]

oh wait i thought you were talking about anguish choices

[junior matrix]

everyone in the party shares the leader's anguish settings

[modern saffron]

ok

and shackles malus is fixed, no longer dependant on distance from max al

[hallow dune]

Backs me up saying the game has become easy lol

[hushed berry]

iirc it was whoever started's setting
If Yoshi is shackled and I am unshackled:
If yoshi starts a dungeon, we both start shackled and have full rewards
If I start a dungeon, we both start unshackled and have crippled rewards And we instantly lose the dungeon because I'm a summoner as a party leader

[modern saffron]

it's easier to Al with the same effort

and?

who is worse off because of it

[hushed berry]

Also to any who might be interested, I have opened up https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1370478253873303653

[hallow dune]

Nobody outside of PvP and same effort proves it's become easy

[latent karma]

People keep saying the game has become easy... well then go up 1 anguish level? I don't understand the benefit of making the character weaker.

[hushed berry]

They're separate from the studio's official polls because, well, they're ORN, not official. None of those polls represent things that are guaranteed to happen

They are a way to gauge opinion first and foremost

[hallow dune]

I wish I could, we are capped at 50. This lovely new update will change that

[latent karma]

Agreed and I love that about the new update, I'm not sure why we have to be weakened for maximal rewards though, would rather just keep pushing until the natural wall comes and then work my way out of it through any means necessary.

[hallow dune]

I terms of weakened states I agree that some stuff should be reeled in with others and some maluses changed or removed. Other than that I like that it makes us work around things. Odie has reasons for changing things 🤷. I'm here to suffer or have fun regardless lol

[full cape]

i saw your candle post to explain stuff, so i'll try to picture why i think the rewards arent the same. 😂

Lets say the progress in a content (Anguish) is a Ladder. every 10 steps you get a reward.

Anguish 1.0 : big steady ladder that got steps being harder and harder to climb at each of them (monster scaling)
Anguish 2.0 : Same, but at every steps, some guyz also try to shoot you with a rifle, and will injure you if they didnt killed you already (maluses)

you'll not get as high, and you'll not get as much reward on the second ladder, that's impossible

Ok i'm not as good as you to picture stuff > [ -]

[hallow dune]

Oh you were referring to shackles in a way, yeah idk. I'm 50/50 on that

[latent karma]

Yeah I fully appreciate the maluses and think theyre great, just think shackles feel off

[hallow dune]

I've come to the conclusion which shackles I'll dig deep to when they come off lol then farm whatever 🤷

For people that are substationally higher ALs Im sorry and I do hope theres some sort of work around for that since the difficulty at like 30+ ramps quite a lot

[uncut rampart]

Well -- any means other than just ascending your way out of it.

That's what the whole discussion is about. Outside of a few mechanics like fixed second chancing to give enemies a chance at a turn in a way that ignores player stats, ascension just allows people to overpower the feature. Ultimately I would say it's about pve enemies winning. Not unlike if players had capped ascensions, and pve difficulty was tuned so that there was still the occasional loss while at ascension cap.

[junior matrix]

yes, it's going to be harder. Ang 1.0 has failed as it is not hard enough

the rewards are still the same

[upper meadow]

I feels joke when non hardcore player telling me the game is easy.

[full cape]

yeah, rewards are the same. just cant get them 👍

[upper meadow]

Maybe my 7 month playing time is heavy invest than some few year player.

[junior matrix]

if you can't get them, than this wasn't a succesful beta.

let's move our energy from gloomposting into ensuring its a successful beta

[hallow dune]

You've been complaining the entire time about the game getting harder. Gosh forbid we have to strategize or look at more than two buttons for things. Stop acting like your some sort of elitest because you play more. We are all here to have fun.

[latent karma]

But I guess my question is why not? What makes ascension less valuable than strategy and Ang gear? Particularly in a system that is meant to handle infinite scaling. I'm already needing to make effective and active decisions to succeed 10 AL before my shackles even start to come off.

Ideally an ascended, strategic geared player should be able to push the farthest. But if you want to compensate for one by upping any of the others I don't see how that is bad for the system

[upper meadow]

But i didnt feels any fun from your words.

[hallow dune]

Oh well move on.

Bwubble seems to be doing fine on tower anguish with the shackles?

Slower yes but doing?

[proven scaffold]

Let's make sure to not get personal with each other. Definitely contentious stuff in this beta it seems, but let's try and focus on issues and not pick on people's opinions about them :)

[full cape]

Orna Vanilla when ? So that people who want to spend 40 minute battling one amorri to get a broken AFC can finally have fun ?

[hallow dune]

If rewards were increased for said "40" minutes of raiding would you say different?

[junior matrix]

A note to everyone: going forward these messages will result in you being removed from beta threads, or the server if need be.

If you're only interested in making this beta testing + feedback harder than it needs to be, then you do not need to be here

[rustic escarp]

I’d love to know how many of the people arguing for or against this have actually dedicated time to play the beta and test things out vs just arguing because changes “feel” a certain way

[uncut rampart]

What makes ascension less valuable than strategy and Ang gear?
Ascension is infinite; anguished gear definitely isn't and strategy is an extremely large but finite space.

The fun of challenges is trying to overcome them with limitations. If there's always an escape hatch in the form of "just ascend some more", then that interesting strategic space won't be getting explored. I'd say that's the goal of shackles, and of the guild more generally.

Let other guilds focus on ascension (primarily), and let this one not.

[hallow dune]

Few and far

[modern saffron]

i ask you this: how long should it take to raid a hyppo at anguish 40 with [insert here the build you think is best] and all anguish 40 gear. because I can invest some hours in beta, get to 40, then use the tools, and I am pretty sure the time will be absurd

[latent karma]

While I understand the argument that was not what I was lead to believe based on the below. This was the guild to test the strength gained from ascension and provide the additional needed weight to use those ascension levels. That goal is not met if we cant use them.

[modern saffron]

like I can even hoc to Hera to have Hera ara available for damage cap break or whatever

[latent karma]

If the reason is "AL are the golden banana to your Ang levels" I think thats way less interesting than being gated naturally.

[modern saffron]

but then if I am successful kn showing the current scaling is absurd we nerf it to the same scaling anguish gear has ok?

shackles aside the long term disaster in the making here is creating a functional hard cap that no ingenuity can overcome because their numbers grow more than perfect farming does

if shackles stays which is like saying Al is just a key for higher anguish, fine, but anguish gear has to scale the same as opponents

[junior matrix]

@modern saffron you appear to be continuing to take the current parameters as the final product, and are not helping to define and test the ways they need to be adjusted - you are just gloomposting them and egging on arguments. Please consider this a final warning before i remove you from these threads

[hybrid sluice]

What I don't understand is Why. Why are we grinding ALs and anguish higher and higher? Is the real reason just for more difficulty?

The allegiance rewards cap out, and the bonuses alone don't seem to be worth the immense grind and time investment. The anguished gear serves only to grind anguish

[junior matrix]

Ang 2.0 Level 25 difficulty/rewards should be comparable to Ang 1.0 Level 50

So, my counterquestion is: why are folk currently doing Ang 1.0 Level 50?

[proven scaffold]

For clarity folks - it's fine enough to say that the beta isn't currently perfectly refined, we expect that.
What we need in beta testing is some suggestions, backed by lots of folks so we can consider them against our desired designs.

Take some time to think through things, put some suggestions together and get some votes going and it gives us a lot more to go on.

On Aethric side, you have ORN there and they can collate, then either run polls in the threads there or create suggestions and use that as follow up.

If it's just individual opinions, it becomes hard to tell how many people it represents, and if those opinions don't have solutions in mind (with concessions that the existing Anguish mechanics will change somewhat), then it leave us net no where. Let's just try and stay productive, and definitely constructive in criticism.
Thanks all!

[hallow dune]

Why do you do it now?

[formal sparrow]

I don't know if this helps or not but I am going to try to say it.

There is this game that recently is getting an update and also on beta on steam right now called Siralim Ultimate.

That game is also an RPG with infinite progression and infinite progression loops. Maybe it would be good to compare and get a few ideas.

[hallow dune]

Vastly different games , but a great game nonetheless

Siralim is on its own plane in terms of that

[formal sparrow]

yes but both turn based RPGs

[modern dragon]

Yoooo siralim Ultima is getting an update?? 👀

[formal sparrow]

yes, big one, also in beta and funny enough also called 2.0 update lol

[hallow dune]

Should be a decent amount of polls up for people's opinions at this point as well

[hybrid sluice]

I have other goals in game, I'm not in it for the rat race. But the 2.0 system seems to be inwardly focused; instead of lifting the player up in whatever grind they wish, it holds the player down for the sake of its own grind

Difficulty for the sake of difficulty is a niche market

Kinda just means I'll stop grinding the system at some point, I'll stick with whatever feels right. If that's the intent then alright

[proven scaffold]

Bear in mind that allegiances were added to a bunch of guilds here - Anguish is meant to be the space for challenge. It's ok to not want to do Anguish, there's plenty to do elsewhere!

[junior matrix]

The community has been begging for more difficulty - more substance than mashing through content with one or two buttons. that's the plea we're trying to solve here

sure, that's not everyone. and for those not looking to add reward for extra difficulty, then there is no reason to check Anguish out

[hybrid sluice]

How high can we push the rewards then

Because not much entices me atm

[junior matrix]

what level do you play Ang 1.0 at?

[hybrid sluice]

I chose not to push higher than 40 since 2.0 was coming out. Only able to interact with the system as Heretic after 2h update

[loud yew]

As much as in loving ang2.0, currently from my experience so far Ang2.0 lvl 25 =/= ang1.0 lvl 50, this due to it basically being impossible to complete horde content, therefore the rewards are significantly less. Now do I think this is bad? No, as like you've said previously, Ang1.0 is a little too good, but just trying to show where the feeling of it not being worth might be coming from for people

[formal sparrow]

I see the new gear passives as a reward, if they get more complex they can open new combinations.

[modern dragon]

Since discord is the place where players go when they get bored with the game I think that type of feedback (That the game needs to be much much harder) is overly represented. I don't think the majority of the community actually feels that way

[hybrid sluice]

It's a reward that can only be used in anguish, does not entice people to engage with the system

It's the requirement for even entering the system

[formal sparrow]

It has to be that way otherwise everyone had to play it

[hybrid sluice]

That's fine

[formal sparrow]

and it would be specially unfair in PvP

[junior matrix]

there are definitely some tweaks still to make

it should be just as rewarding (+Allegience on top)

but a touch harder

but not impossible/frustrating

[hybrid sluice]

I think the current iteration needs a lot of tweaks to reach that intent

[junior matrix]

you should be fine around level 15-20 in Ang 2.0

[junior matrix]

have you played today's tweaks?

[hybrid sluice]

Not yet. Hopefully they help

I think I'm still at a stage where the anguish rewards just aren't enticing

[junior matrix]

i would disagree. Anguish 2.0 was the most voted on "next big thing" for the studio to do by our players. doesn't that say they want more Anguish?

[hybrid sluice]

I'd rather remove myself from the system entirely and take the loss of anguish. The cost of engaging with the system at all (anguished gear, modified builds, etc) is not interesting to me yet

[hushed berry]

Don't forget that, even boosters aside, Proof drop rates and/or "purchasing power" are still very much in the air - needs to be tested and refined

The system is a tad different. It is likely to be similar to ang1.0, but since 2.0 is harder and will likely see us getting off of horde mode, it might see some changes on that department

[modern dragon]

I feel exactly the same

[upper meadow]

I aready planning to do as you

[modern dragon]

I can't speak for anyone else but I thought 2.0 was going to be more similar to 1.0, with some added depth and difficulty. 2.0 seems like something else entirely

[latent karma]

Q: Is the reward supposed to be equivalent at the shackled level or unshackled?

I'm very hopeful about the new system, it seems extremely fun, the gear is super cool and the content is way more engaging. If players get a 'big bonus' for playing with additional restrictions thats great! But if I'm not able to use my full strength for equivalent rewards, I believe that goes against the stated intent of the system.

I am also assuming level requirements will be way up and gear drops way down once live, with potential additional blacksmithing, I'm personally worried I won't be playing at full strength for months to years, but if its a simple economic fix that is way better to me.

[full cape]

imo that say that Ang 1.0 was not properly done, with a lot of irritating issue, and pretty boring to play. Not that it was not hard enough

[junior matrix]

2.0 doesn't feel like anything but 1.0 with added depth and difficulty to me 🤷‍♂️

[modern dragon]

It's whole new system 🤷‍♂️

[proven scaffold]

We had folks hit anguish 50 inside a week - definitely didn't hit the mark for challenge

[junior matrix]

agree to disagree, i suppose

[proven scaffold]

It's intended to be challenging, and not sped through for sure. If you're hitting caps quickly, that's not meeting the challenge criteria at all!

[junior matrix]

have a great night, all

[hybrid sluice]

I like challenge. I don't feel the rewards are appropriate for the level yet

[tribal pond]

Good night Odie, have a good weekend!

[proven scaffold]

Come up with suggestions then ;)

[hybrid sluice]

Sure. I like the idea of rollover luck

I like the idea of increased ornate chance

[hallow dune]

I gotcha

[hybrid sluice]

I would love the idea of party play being more rewarding than solo, and having increased difficulty than solo (but comes out to being easier than solo by virtue of having more players)

[tribal pond]

I like the idea of some phat orn boosts

[hybrid sluice]

I think you actually should scale rewards to be more rewarding than an equivalent time invested in solo

Multiply your effort. Time is more valuable than the ingame resources

[manic cave]

As an introvert, I would not like that change

[hybrid sluice]

A future where anguish is the most efficient way to spend your time sounds good to me

Solo should still be possible (more than it currently is)

Realistically speaking - why would spending more time in anguish content cause less rewards than spending that time in multiple instances of non-anguish content

Time invested in large blocks has inherent value above time spent in smaller segments

[proven scaffold]

This doesn't seem to be seeking challenge, which the guild aims to provide.
Looking to shift anguish into the content that is quickly consumed won't likely be what we do here

[hybrid sluice]

I don't want it to be quickly consumed, to be clear

I'm ok with spending 30 minutes in a high anguish raid - if the reward is greater than 30 minutes of raiding at 0 anguish

[pallid rapids]

Im really shocked there are more nerfs to crit when ss3 is so strong to begin with.

This was today, I'm 136 AL vs 170 AL. I am full class cannon realmD 16k attack. He's full tank.

Please explain the balance of this? I pour all my resources into attack and crit. He put all of his into ward and defense and he doubles my attack after I "have the advantage" of going first.

[proven scaffold]

I wonder with these comments how many folks have played with full anguish gear, with solid bonuses?
Are these comments more based in speculation, or testing?

We'd definitely want our opinions here based in testing as much as possible, that's why the beta is there! We don't want to just make opinions on patch notes if we can help it

[uncut rampart]

#1370414879395020831 and #1370141629444395028 threads to continue this^

[hybrid sluice]

I am speculating based on what has been stated by ORN members and patreon testers

[tribal pond]

Working on it

[hybrid sluice]

It has been stated that anguish "should not multiply" your resources/rewards

[uncut rampart]

Is it ever acceptable for a raid to take longer and not reward as much as the current live game version?

[proven scaffold]

Ok, thanks for the honesty.
Let's get to testing then ;)

Drop rates are markedly increased for testing, and there are godmaking tools in a code pinned in this thread

[modern saffron]

testing GSA currently and summons are 1.78x bigger (HP) than on live. is that intended? iirc that wasn't the case yesterday

[tribal pond]

Mirrors are still rolling out, correct?

(I have a mirror, but so much has changed since then to get a better comparison)

[proven scaffold]

Definitely - apologies they are a manual task. Lots on atm, will continue to do them throughout my weekend cause I like you guys <3

[formal sparrow]

my mirror comment has a ✅ but still not done. Is this normal?

[modern saffron]

might be but remember this creates a gap between people who already have all existing gear and new ppl. usually games do the opposite, pre existing gear gets slowly easier to get (so catch up is possible) and endgamers focus on new stuff

which is equally available to all

[proven scaffold]

Can't answer directly as I'm unsure, but if something feels like a bug you can make sure to report it. Support are logging all the beta bugs atm :)

[tribal pond]

No pressure, thank you for all the hardwork you guys are doing!

[hybrid sluice]

Tbf I don't need to test ang 20 to see the rewards list and have an idea of what the system offers - that's what I'm providing speculative comments on. I would love to see the experience of heavier testers

It just doesn't sound particularly enticing yet

[uncut rampart]

(This wasn't rhetorical, btw. Genuinely asking.)

[vast quail]

Can the new specs get things other than boosts to their content type? Kinda like how dof has parting remark and bof has rend/ skills

[hybrid sluice]

Sorry, confused a bit by the question

[manic cave]

Dude, go enjoy your weekend.

[hybrid sluice]

Is there a situation where it's acceptable for it to take me longer but reward me less?

[manic cave]

We can wait

[hybrid sluice]

I can't think of one

I guess party play for the social aspect

Helping others out

[vast quail]

Or perhaps something more rudimentary like charged passives for the specific content type.

[upper meadow]

May someone add a poll, about cost of the mats to upgrade ang level.

[loud yew]

#1369743101710565457 message

[hybrid sluice]

Or do you just mean "is it acceptable to nerf raiding speed as a whole"

[uncut rampart]

Either/both.

Can a newer game version come out where the game is slower in any metric, and for that to be a good/desirable/acceptable thing?

[neon raptor]

For what it’s worth I am running all 3 conq guild consumables so it’s a bit boosted. Also might of been when I was on warden

Not to say that the damage is justified or anything 😅

Also I like your territory defense build!

[proven scaffold]

Lol yeah, life balance is hard during betas sometimes!
It's currently 7:23am on saturday morning and I'm yet to sleep cause I do want to be around for folks as much as possible.

Appreciate you all, might check out for a bit myself.

Vote on those polls John set up, make sure to get consensus on any suggestions you all come up with, and let's make this thing great together 💪

Big love all

[neon raptor]

Similar to Sokams tank Strat

[hybrid sluice]

Oh totally

[pallid rapids]

Were brothers 😉

[hybrid sluice]

Loads of ways the game can be slower but more enjoyable

[proven scaffold]

Thansk Sirith, no doubt at all that you're testing. Wasn't aimed at you, apologies for the more general language!

[hybrid sluice]

I am on board with the idea of ang2.0 as well - but it doesn't make sense for me to spend more time and gain less rewards on a mobile game, just for the sake of difficulty. That is something a small part of the playerbase might enjoy, and even then I think it should be at least equivalent

The "prove yourself" mentality is fine but is not typical/evergreen of the playerbase

There is a reason people voted for uncapped ALs, the more typical fantasy is being able to crush your foes and cruise through difficulty by default

[pallid rapids]

This was right after I hit you for 350k HS3 btw...

This is PVP, not PVE raiding

1.792m

[loud yew]

It's all good, I actually meant to add more to that message and use the reply to mention that I'm planning on finishing the write up later tonight 😅

[pallid rapids]

I know there's a SS thread, but this is about nerfing crit

#1369690605835387040 message

[hybrid sluice]

This is the message that stuck with me: #1369695388432334878 message

I think this sums up the idea of the rewards system of 2.0 and the more I think on it, the less it makes sense.

My time SHOULD multiply my resources. That's what the whole game is

[tribal pond]

then it's a "quanity" of rewards or a "quality" of rewards equation

[modern saffron]

i think the patch increased HP scaling

anguish 11 is 238%

these are more than 5x

[tribal pond]

I can spend 10 minutes killing 10 ang0 amorri, or 10 minutes killing 1 ang10 amorri for a chance at a higher quality reward, with less quantity

[modern saffron]

dunno if intended or not

[hybrid sluice]

I mean, I think it can all be balanced out. Obviously time spent and reward quality are fairly amorphous metrics

But getting ang 10 gear does not qualify as increased quality of reward

That's the literal requirement for the content, it can't also be the reward (especially because it can't be used outside the content)

[tribal pond]

I get what you mean

Friday afternoon brainrot from work is taking its toll on me lel

Would it be viewed as the reward, as it would then lower your future time investment for the same content?

Ang10 morri now taking say 8 minutes with a new Ang10 AFC, would time saved being a result be a reward?

[hybrid sluice]

No because the reason to do the content faster is to gain the reward faster

[tribal pond]

[hybrid sluice]

It's a closed system

[tribal pond]

Unless there's other rewards, such as proofs and orns etc

[hybrid sluice]

Gain more anguished gear faster so you can gain more anguoshed gear faster

[hybrid sluice]

Exactly

[serene bluff]

I still feel that telling people they don't have to opt into the only endgame content that will allow us to continue to push our character limits outside of ascension is disingenuous to the larger game population. Ascension is already being handicapped in a lot of play, so Anguish 2.0 will be the best option to better ourselves. Why make a system that excludes people from endgame content by making it too hard? - Many folks I see saying it's good and acceptable are veterans of 2+ years with decently high AL. Hence, I get that they are bored, but this feels like a "pulling the ladder up" situation. It's hard to talk about the economy of it all, so that I won't go there.

My suggestions have been:
A scale down in difficulty. Some of this has happened, but I don't think it's there yet.
Remove some of the instant failure options, like the ward not working.
Allow individuals to scale their shackles for increased and decreased rewards instead of being flat for their anguish level.
Remove focus from 2H and Elemental Maluses, or at least scale down the % on them.

[hybrid sluice]

The anguished gear has to be taken out of the context

[tribal pond]

Tower shards, dungeon orns, mats from proofs etc

I get you

What a wild ride

Thanks for all the discussion, Phil

[vast quail]

Will stacking ult defence be good for ang 2.0? I'm too lazy (and dont have the actual gear leveled) to test it out

[upper meadow]

The game should be more user friendly

[torn trench]

Unlikely to be somethign youd build for but something thatd be nice to have if it fits in your build anyways. See it as like +70 Att/Mag on something. You wouldnt use gear just off that Att/Mag alone but if a desirable piece has that aswell it is appreciated.

[upper meadow]

Another discuss about the masterforged mats

As beta, using demonforged tools to ang +1 required masterforged your equipment

So it is 500 mats x 3-4 per ang upgrade.

But we have more than 1 piece equipment to reupgrade.

Example if i rise my ang guild level to 10, and i wish to upgrade my main equipment to ang level 5, it will cost (500 x 3-4 x 5 ) + (1500 demonforged) for 1 equipment

We wearing 4-5 piece, the amout gonna x 4-5 again.

[upbeat steeple]

Well, you can choose to wait to upgrade your gear 5 level in one time, so it only costs 500 x 5 + 1500 instead of 2000 x 5

[upper meadow]

Yeah this is what i writing inside

[upbeat steeple]

And then you can rotate what you upgrade so you still get a small buff every anguish levels !

[modern saffron]

Is raids not dropping proofs of felling anymore with anguish intended or not

[loud yew]

I see you mentioned here "fresh player" afaik I don't think ang2.0 is meant to tailored towards fresh/new players at all, it's very much meant to be "end game"

[upper meadow]

Please check the picture, it is only the cost of avalon ore

Im using equipment from great sphnix or epee as example

68000 coral

[modern saffron]

Badchick it's clear that if you push anguish A LOT so you level fast in live you will need to prioritize builds that use gear for which you have a lot of mats

[upper meadow]

We can get about 15000 a day

[modern saffron]

Or you take it steady and slowly like if it was doing AL

[toxic wind]

JFC

[upbeat steeple]

Well you can always use cheaper equipments for the begin to go deep in anguish levels, and once you start to hit a wall/need to increase AL (which mean you will start to progress slowly) use the mega tool to upgrade expensive items for almost nothing

[serene bluff]

I'm pretty sure that Demon Tools only gives +1 upgrade, too. I don't think it allows you to skip levels. I had to level up 1 piece every level

[upper meadow]

Yes

[upbeat steeple]

godforging tools do that

[serene bluff]

and those are currently limited to very very few

[upper meadow]

Godforging tools is limited item

It is rare

[serene bluff]

Think you can count them on your fingers and toes, even if you are missing a few

[upbeat steeple]

That's why you can save them for the expensive gears

[upper meadow]

Well i means the mats for 1 equipment aready able to let a 30al player rise few more al

The amout dont looks legal

That will not be a problem if our end game player got lot of kingdom orns in one man kingdom.

But not everyone own a one man kingdom.

[torn trench]

Not keen on having this debate here but I will add a +1 to the camp of not being a fan of constantly reforging/godforging gear. I personally took great pleasure in collecting 100s of gear both good and bad and making it a priority to collect Thief gear in high %s. I find this future super bleak as I am about to bank the majority of my inventory to only keep the handful of meta items in my pocket and trade the boring AL material grind into a reforging material grind in which I am likely going to want to refarm my entire inventory anyways for anguished bonuses. I could rant about this for days but I find the current system to punish long term players for engaging in gameplay and discourages stepping out of the meta/norm to try new things.

If gear wasnt so vastly different on the power scale I could see an argument that youd be encouraged to use the anguished pieces you find instead of upgrading old pieces but for most classes and their best gearing options the range from weak to strong isnt even close. Youd always be better to just forge your event raid gear over some random items you find. I think this loop feels unrewarding and moreso tedious and doesnt show much respect for the individual players time both previously spent before this update and after this update, asking for an absurd level of "regrinding" content they have already consumed.

[serene bluff]

So, one fair point is that a tool will be added to reroll/add anguish attributes to the gear. The rest I agree with

If they also made the Godforging tools somehow re-attainable that would ease the hurt too

[torn trench]

I think a potential solution(cant be certain of this as the rates would likely be very touchy). Would be to give Godworking Tool access ofc. In other guilds, possible EoD or like EoD but only for Ang?, Instead of RNG slop weapons you could get a chance at Godworking tools from raids?

I genuinely dont think this is a solution as I believe trying to find a fine line where youll make most people happy will be next to impossible and will be easily on one side or the other being way too easy and excess or next to non existent.

I personally believe this system should see some sort of overhauling before its shipped. One that better respects players past time, players time they will have to put in again and better allows players to maintain build diversity. Again, I think this system currently introduces a lot of tedium into an otherwise inoffensive system that most couldnt find real issue with.

[upper meadow]

Or another system like godforged, you need to wearing your current ang level equipment on higher Ang level to level up

[hybrid sluice]

Anguishforged

[zealous coral]

I like this, otherwise we're gonna use up all the mats we farm with proofs upgrading stuff and it will take a bunch of time if we're talking about cort and rore stuff

Or anything that wont make this farm incredibly expensive

[hybrid sluice]

Use mats to buy a buff from the anguish guild. The buff gives you a chance for your anguished gear to increase an anguish level when killing anguished mobs

[uneven matrix]

I think the issue of doing raids with 5x health can be solved by doing them with friends. I know we all want to maximize profits, but maybe adding a bit more rewards at higher anguish levels would be fine.

[torn trench]

Forced party play suuuuucks

[hybrid sluice]

Yeah I would want content to be doable solo, slightly more rewarding in party