3.17 Spiked Shield & Gilga Changes

[broken bough]

bringing it into balance with all the others skills is implicitly giving alternatives - the alternatives being all the other skills in the game.

otherwise, we're just adding new skills to try and dethrone it, which is toeing the powercreep line

[sly geode]

Great, then balance it?

[broken bough]

yes

[junior imp]

Please Bwubble, let's try and adjust the tone a little thanks

[hazy comet]

I do agree with Bwubble's thoughts here though. When you ask the question 'is it better than live' the answer is yes. But digging deeper - some areas not by much at all, some areas definitely better. From what Ive seen in my testing and others, CS is too far ahead of other methods for anguish specifically, which is the key feature to balance CS to given timing of release here

[junior imp]

The attempt from myself here (not driven by Odie, I'm going rogue) is to try and reign it in to something much more simple.
I'd say let's not aim for all the brand new ideas and approaches, but what can be done simply to get it right for launch

Hope that makes some sense

[fringe mirage]

Gilgas have alternatives, but ss is the best tank and damage dealer and they aren't used to not being that. No matter what, it's going to feel bad to gilgas because ss has gone unchecked for so long. Tdubs has been doing a great job showing build variety on OL.

[hazy comet]

Yeah agree with wrecked its probably going to feel bad at first. We arent proposing a rework just want it to be balanced against alternatives given you get a big survivability pool of ward

Esp in anguish

[broken bough]

let's just try to be more concise. threads like these become very difficult for the studio to consume.

point blank: why is SS/CS still dominant in Anguish? fixed miss? damage?

i understand this has probably been answered but i just don't have the reading time right now

[hazy comet]

CS is still outdamaging alternatives while building tanky enough to survive in anguish

As concise as i can

The tradeoffs for using it aren't there basically

[broken bough]

as gilga or not as gilga

[hazy comet]

Both

[late oracle]

I don't think its fixed miss, I think that actually hurts in anguish due to lack of dex scaling.

I was hitting more frequently before fixed miss came back

[polar sentinel]

I can agree alltough im not sure if its better or worse

[junior imp]

Would adding in Malus steps in the Anguish tree make this all good?
Rather than tweak the skill values more, just make it likely that you'll run into a step that reduces SS variant skills

[fringe mirage]

Ok so leave fixed miss in PvE as it's detrimental, remove it in PvP where it's too good lol

[gritty plinth]

I'll steer clear of my soapbox and just say: nerf it harder (like in previous iterations of the beta) and forget about making high anguish "possible". That can come later

[fringe mirage]

And bump it to atleast 10%

[polar sentinel]

last i checked you can just avoid any annoying maluses (like perm buffs falling off) entirely so maybe, maybe not?

[junior imp]

I only ask as Bwubble repeatedly called it out, and I'm trying to make folks feel heard. If that's not a concensus feeling, let's go for something else

[gritty plinth]

Also, implement all of these

[trim ruin]

Maluses would certainly help.

I would definitely err on the side of making anguish 2.0 too hard at the start instead of a repeat of ang1 CS dominance.

(Though I'm not sure why non-anguished pve content would be immune from balancing.)

[hazy comet]

Exactly same thoughts as fux here

Esp in the parenthesis. Less concerning but still applies

[gritty plinth]

Agreed, it's completely fine for high ang to be too hard right now

We can make it feasible later

[fringe mirage]

The HP scaling alone makes ang 1 much harder than it was

[late oracle]

Yeah honestly I think anguish 1 dead content with HP scale (and that's good)

[west verge]

Add in dex scaling too

[fringe mirage]

Isn't it that way in beta? Or was dex scaling removed for the beta and HP scaling implemented

For ang 1

I didn't try it myself. Just saw zahar's video

[gritty plinth]

Never both

[fringe mirage]

Sorry, not trying to derail the convo here

[gritty plinth]

Too late, convo's wrecked

[young river]

Chained Shield being added when and how it was, tells me at the very least it was meant to be the best option for Gilgamesh to defeat horde content. As so many of you have pointed out, the problem is it's become one of the only ways for every class to be able to complete difficult horde content. So we are at the point of how do we fix the latter without busting the former.

And everyone has different thoughts, it is a lot to keep track of and try to focus into concise ideas.

[echo bone]

What about increasing the % of ward SS/CS actually consume on use? Giving the skill more of a downside and making you keep attention on your ward bar, potentially needing to take turns in-between to recover/recharge.
Or making it so it consumes more ward if used by non-warrior classes.

Or potentially reducing ward regen on the turn it's used so you have to mix things up/can't just spam it over and over or else you risk getting hit with little to no ward (though this could be a touching into "rework" feeling and less nerfing, unsure)

[versed grove]

depending on cost in proofs to lvl up, it would also be quite a bit before ppl reach anguish 30+

[late oracle]

Add anguish gear affixes on weapon and offhand (non shield) that allow you to gain dodge past the avoidance cap.

[half karma]

My opinion about the no malus thing for shield strikes in general:
For gilga and gherc there are literally no alternatives for damage output because thats their only available playstyle (which makes sense since its pretty much what gilgas are known for).
Nerfing is warranted, but giving maluses may make base and herc doubly affected.

[late oracle]

Add ward skill maluses to the tree

[polar bronze]

But how is that different from other classes losing crit, crit damage, 2h, elements, etc? They lose all of the array of tools they are supposed to have at one point or another

[gritty plinth]

Nerdly urge to soapbox intensifies

[junior imp]

We're starting to lose the 'concise' part of the Odie request folks 😅

[half karma]

You can build crit and still have elemental dmg for heavy duty enemies. Gilgas have good single type damage, but in high ang a phys immune or even phys resistant may be able to shut us down

[gritty plinth]

I think the concise part is "nerf it and add maluses"

[half karma]

Im not against change at all, im just pointing out a factor heheh

[west verge]

is the current iteration the "nerf it" part? or further

[gritty plinth]

Further I think

Someone who's tested high ang horde can correct me

[late oracle]

Make us choose ward skill effectiveness vs buff fallout at multiple points on the tree

[trim ruin]

afaict, and until we get a formula or something, it's nerfed like 10% or less and mostly due to selene hands being nerfed not SS.
pvp seems sorted with the cap, but pve seems to have been unchanged.

[polar bronze]

If I'm understanding:
-Turn SS/CS down somehow to keep it in line or lower than glass alternatives
-Remove Fixed Miss in PvP at least
-Provide benefit for Gilga using SS over other classes
-Allow time for the game to adjust but there's no way this will feel good for all of the SS builds out there Gilga and Non-Gilga alike
-Add Maluses for SS (or some way to make them not ultimately be top dog?)
-Allow Anguish 2.0 to start very difficult and go from there

Am I missing any?

[west verge]

what I noticed in beta is that my no buff gilga in horde anguish 1.0 does more damage now

[gritty plinth]

@sly geode current beta iteration is still too strong?

[west verge]

there are so many vectors for "nerf" ss which is likely why its difficult to balance

and it seems like we are at the limit of this beta

[broken bough]

maluses might be a little odd imo - it would become the only directly malus's skill. the others are indirect - and anything indirect (targeting Ward in general) would have downstream effects outside of Spiked Shield - for all classes

ultimately dethroning it as the meta monarch would reduce need for malus

[fringe mirage]

What about a malus that increased the fixed miss rate in anguish? If geppu is saying he misses more with 7% fixed miss than without it in PvE

[late oracle]

This kind of already exists but hits every skill

Accuracy -%

[west verge]

this would be similarish to ward absorbtion malus and can be overcome through gearing

[gritty plinth]

Why are we reinventing dex scaling

[broken bough]

if we're in agreement that damage is the issue, let's just focus on fixing the damage issue. no need to look elsewhere

[gritty plinth]

Kinda sounds like the damage is nearly the same as live, so yeah it's still an issue

[gritty plinth]

Why is this a thing right now

[young river]

I'd still like to see it be a viable choice for Gilgamesh

[west verge]

because attack scaling is the current iteration

and I have less ward when running Bof

[echo bone]

Edited this slightly

[gritty plinth]

Or this and this #1370141629444395028 message

[wanton sonnet]

To circle back, doesn't adding x turns to cast the skill essentially divide the DPT of the skill by x? That still seems like a good way of addressing the issue of damage with the skill

[west verge]

if you are using BoF imo CS got a buff

[gritty plinth]

200k unbuffed at 0al is out of line, no?

[west verge]

lol yeah at AL 0

that is wild

[late oracle]

Floor should be lowered somehow for sure.

I can hit 100k in 0al pvp

[half karma]

No doubt

Imo so some doubt lol

[echo bone]

I mean BiS gear vs a 450def cactus is not the best representation of dmg I feel

[trim ruin]

Can you define "viable"? Because I'm pretty sure its damage could be halved right now (for everyone including Gilga) and it would still be viable. It might even still be the clear best option for consistent anguished pve content clearing after that level of change, too.

[young river]

Viable being the 'best' choice for Gilgamesh but not the only

[gritty plinth]

Show me another skill that does that unbuffed turn 1

[fringe mirage]

Does this apply to fixed miss chance? The only thing that applies to those is mystic feather I thought

[late oracle]

I don't know but I assumed

[half karma]

Good question!

[fringe mirage]

So fixed miss would go untouched by that malus?

[half karma]

Wheres the OD

[gritty plinth]

Accuracy applies to fixed miss chance

[late oracle]

If accuracy gear affects fixed I think the malus would

[gritty plinth]

Ping Knight if you want confirmation

[fringe mirage]

Fux may know

[trim ruin]

The best choice for... what metric? I would argue that the 'important' metric are these two:

• ability to complete an anguished dungeon in a 'reasonable' amount of time (read: 5mins max)
• raiding speed + safety, likely best measured by arisen waygates

It feels like the defensive aspect (building for max ward) is often ignored when talking about SS. It's not just that it does megadamage, but that it does damage comparable to something that has ~no defenses (low ward, low dex, low def). Completion rates for dungeons and re-attempts at raids matter a lot.

[trim ruin]

it does.

as @late oracle says, +accuracy affects fixed accuracy skills. -accuracy would as well.

[fringe mirage]

Ok thanks

[polar sentinel]

not sure if people noticed
#patch-notes message

[polar bronze]

And ignores the dex if they build it because fixed miss chance

[gritty plinth]

Go forth and test, shieldlings

[trim ruin]

(and this argument has nothing to do with non-Gilga. This can be a gilga to gilga comparison -- how do other choices compare for just gilga on these metrics?)

[west verge]

further adjustments wooo

mystery adjustments

[young river]

At least previously, in Anguish 1, I have not found building for Max ward to be that advantageous over building for more damage. Getting hit is something you want to avoid doing in a CS build and if there is an amount of ward in Anguish that allows you to take a full round of getting punched in the face then have enough damage to kill anything the next turn, I have not found it. Admittedly I am not at all familiar with Anguish 2.0 and have no real input on building some maluses in or what not.

[trim ruin]

quick cactus test: no change. 120k in beta before, 120k in beta now. 🤷‍♂️
someone out there might be affected but it isn't me

[broken bough]

✨ player discovery ✨

[west verge]

since day 1 baybeeeeee

[young river]

CS and SS3 almost doing the same damage on a raid now

Were CS numbers adjusted too or just SS?

[broken bough]

all of them

base formula

[sterile crescent]

my damage vs cactus is about the same I think but my damage vs arena is noticeably lower

[young river]

With my particular set up, raid damage dropped from about 6-6.5 million to 5-5.5 on beta. Compared to about 7-7.5 on live with same buffs

Also, not sure yet but initial arena numbers looks like it does have a significant difference now for Gilgamesh full ward vs turn 1

[late oracle]

At 0AL pvp
Live: 80k
Beta: 150k

[broken bough]

Ward/Att differences?

[young river]

I am not noticing much of a difference in arena damage on most of my builds, glass cannon Ursa still hitting like a truck.

[sly geode]

I'll write up another thing here in a minute.

But its not just damage that's the issue, its the entire skill

It does too much damage
Its the only way to not die at high anguish
It doesn't require an anguish weapon to succeed
It frees up amity slots for utility/tankiness as opposed to damage
And it dodges maluses like -crit chance that gut other options

[young river]

Biggest difference I noticed is vs half ward fullw ard

[sly geode]

a good chunk of thr CS/SS power creep from other issues that plague the game

Fux called it out, but every good piece of gear also just has good ward. There is no real tradeoff to walking into a dungeon with 300k ward because you can still have 15k attack and thousands of dex

Def/res dont help in high anguish ~at all, but those pieces do have tradeoffs, in that they kill your ward, so they quickly become obsolete

[sly geode]

I'll try to keep this concise, dumping some screenshots first

These are my character stats and the loadout for the CS/SS build I use.

These are my character stats and the loudout for Ymir Feather

Turn 1 damage using CS/SS

Turn 1 damage using feathers

CS/SS do equivalent damage to slice, and also have:

• 25% extra ward regen per turn
• 5% mana regen per turn
• Almost 200k extra ward
• A fixed miss chance

In terms of flexibility I could also

• equip a briny penant to shut down statuses almost completely
• sub out the arisen ring for Carl's ring
• anguish forge the gear for even more ward regen

In terms of maluses. The screenshots/videos above are tailored to Ymir, so i dodged all of the crit maluaes. This means if I were to optimize for cs/ss I would have:

• fewer zerks
• better accuracy
• more status resist
• less permanent status falloff

And most importantly, the Ymir set up isn't maxing crit chance yet. So its optimized form has even lower base stats because I need pinions/bristles

[polar bronze]

If I might add something to the equation as to why Spiked Shield also needs to not have fixed miss chance.

Pictured is on live, Heretic Corvus and doesn't include the 8/10 misses prior to the screenshot. No I'm not Blinded, I know the raid can throw smoke bomb, and yes I'm wearing at least some dexterity

I understand missing feels had but that's what building dex and accuracy are for - and fixed miss invalidates those

If it must stay fixed miss chance, can it be PvE only? 😀

[haughty turtle]

Fixed miss is still a huge issue in PvP

[hazy comet]

Yeah even in PvE other classes have to build Dex to hit though. Seems off that one doesnt

Made much worse in pvp just not caring about opponents effort to build dex too

[sly geode]

In regards to the malus conversation from earlier that I keep shouting about, I see maluses in two ways:

Those that affect the player
Those that affect skills

Things that target the players are those like permanent status fade, status resist, and accuracy. They are all encompassing, and make everything harder regardless of the build or set up used.

Those that affect skills are things like -crit chance, - elemental damage, -AoE damage. These are not all encompassing, and only affect skills that employ one of their mechanics. Horizontal Strike is impacted by the crit malus, but (usually) not - fire damage and never - AoE damage.

The skill maluses are where cs/ss dont have anything that directly harms them 100% of the time. Elemental damage can, but nobody is going to run an elemental in horde boss and deal with immunities/resist.

This leads to malus options like the screen shot where crit builds either have no choice, or get hit with a very noticeable malus.

Cs/ss never run into this choice, and are always able to pick the least penalizing player malus options, because there aren't any skill ones

[haughty turtle]

I don’t know what kind of timeline the studio has set for themselves, but, as someone who’s super looking forward to this patch, please let me say this: please don’t rush it out. I’d rather see the beta take another month or more than see things go to live before being properly cooked. It’s a big patch, I don’t think anyone in the community will complain if this beta is prolonged

[trim ruin]

I understand the desire to not boil the ocean and solve every problem all at once.

That being said, SS was clearly voted as front-of-mind for necessary balance changes. And that's both for pvp and pve, for gilga and non-gilga.
If we need finer grained polling on it we can run them, but I think the signal (and the mountain of discussion) is already clear.

[sly geode]

And to drive this even further, cs/ss are also less impacted by the player maluses as a whole, because of the available utility within the build.

There is no need for crit, less need for attack, and ward is free.

So status resist starts stacking too high? Just throw on immunities, you've got free accessory slots.

Zerk chance goes higher? Its fine, they still can't get through the ward pool.

[signal heron]

With an amity bonus that boosts skills that consume ward in the game, I'm not sure why there's such a hesitance to add that exact same effect in reverse as a malus

[half karma]

Not being able to get through ward is more of a dorado thing than a gilga thing since you have a ton of dodge and your stats dont depend on ward

[half karma]

Odie said that'd be too targeted

Like decreasing Vestas would be for ex

[late oracle]

When spiked shield is too good so my diffuse ward 1 heals only 150% my HP bar instead of double

[signal heron]

There's a malus that reduces AoE skills, and there are fewer melee AoE skills in the game than there are skills that consume ward

Melee AoE:

1. Sweep
2. Arrowstorm
3. Arrowstorm 2
4. Envy (off-hand only)

Consume ward:

1. Spiked Shield 1
2. Spiked Shield 2
3. Spiked Shield 3
4. Chained Shield
5. Shield Bash
6. Shield Bash 2

[half karma]

-AoE feels like its there mainly to stop ppl from stomping horde ang, which makes a ton of sense

[west verge]

shield bash...i didnt know there was a 1 and 2

one of them is from warden, idk the other

[trim ruin]

missing the utility ward-usage stuff, ig. diffuses and sow ward could also be diminished with the same malus

[signal heron]

I'm not arguing that -AoE shouldn't be there. I'm arguing -skills that consume ward should

[signal heron]

Now I'm curious if the amity effects those

The amity only goes to 4% so nobody actually cares about it, so idk any testing

[half karma]

Maybe. Im just delivering some mid AL feedback since we usually only look at high AL full meta builds to compare things

And also a bit of specific mid gilga feedback too

[broken bough]

let's go nuts

[polar sentinel]

sorry let's what?

please dont tease me like this

[sage wedge]

"go nuts" is what I believe he said.

[broken bough]

let's go

[polar sentinel]

LETS GOO

[sage wedge]

Also that primary weapon looks kinda sexy ngl.

[west verge]

gursa...berseker?...

this is worthy of the wall

[signal heron]

In a thread dominated by "SS is too good" and "CS is boring as the main thing Realmshifter can do to clear anguish content because it's better than everything else" I wonder how this fits in 😆

[haughty turtle]

“Realm Dorado is now a Valor class”

[west verge]

yes

also dursa

[haughty turtle]

“DUrsa has been deleted”

[sly geode]

How this thread turned into giving Gilga more stuff is now the 8th wonder of the world

[peak girder]

wonder what is that

[west verge]

Odie just wants to have

fun

[broken bough]

imagine fun in a game

[haughty turtle]

Ew fun

We all know Odie is just trying to get me to stay on gilga for more than 1 month

[lilac cliff]

You guys are confused, this is obviously for beowulf hydrus

[broken bough]

atlas vanguard buff

[real blade]

its for gsh

[polar sentinel]

before todays patch / first patch / now

i messed up the amities i guess, build is still the same so this should still be a valid comparison (?)

[signal heron]

RIP Collateral Damage?

Edit: just a joke because the last SS doesn't have it

[polar sentinel]

ward consumption changed?

[polar sentinel]

this isnt a cd loadout, it just didnt proc

[lilac cliff]

Omg, gilgaded (depends on def/res)

And further changes

To ss

[junior imp]

Frenzy ward consumption is very different

[polar sentinel]

so whats frenzy then?

[west verge]

are you sure it isnt Odie that went rogue?

"hey guys lets keep it simple"

odie adds new mechanic

[polar sentinel]

fair

[signal heron]

All I want is to not be stuck using CS

[west verge]

no pls stop

[junior imp]

Heh, we're on different sides of the planet and the man is always cooking something up. Mad man continues to work hard

[sly geode]

You'll spam CS for two more years and you'll like

Something something fun

[signal heron]

CS isn't fun

[polar sentinel]

i love it

[signal heron]

You can hit three targets with it

[junior imp]

Two hander bonus exists on Anguished gear, and received a little buff I believe
Play around, you shouldn't have to use CS

[lilac cliff]

Time to get an eastern regalia and go bankrupt

[signal heron]

Unfortunately, CS tends to be higher damage, higher defense, and higher ward than any 2h option

[sly geode]

Unless its suddenly a lot more survivable, not sure damage is going to help

[signal heron]

2H is awesome, but they require a high risk gameplay that Anguish does not support

Which is why we're back in the CS hole after being freed from it recently

[lilac cliff]

[sly geode]

Average anguish 2h experience

[snow spindle]

To be fair, that's also the experience of most things at anguish 30

[sly geode]

Yuhp

Except for CS 🙃

The damage did get nerfed though, so let me play around and see if I can still clear

[junior imp]

I vote we give the changes to SS calcs some solid testing, and give Odie some time to enjoy Ornaversary and come back with thoughts from the adjustments.
Give it a solid crack, and we'll go from there!
Cheers folks

[west verge]

🔒 ?

[peak girder]

is this Frenzy thing on the beta?

[junior imp]

No, we won't lock the thread. This one isn't done, done. Let's just give it a crack before we get too stuck in the weeds about history

[west verge]

once i see it in ios beta ill take it for a spin

[signal heron]

I just hope we don't go from "Realmshifter's only option is CS"
to
"Realmshifter's only option is still CS but it's bad"

[sage wedge]

I run my despair build with living Arch armor. And would in fact call it the lowest risk build I have.

[real blade]

I think that might be the case for me for GS towers lol. I mean we cant really do heretic av3 stuf either

[signal heron]

What level anguish in new anguish?

The only thing we really care about here is new anguish.

[junior imp]

The focus here is toning SS though, not buffing Realm. That can be addressed elsewhere, but wasn't the intent of the changes here.

[signal heron]

I still don't know what Frenzy does, so I can't really comment, but it seems to be some kind of Gilga buff

[junior imp]

It's closer to a gamble/playstyle shift than a buff

[placid sedge]

I think Knights point is a sufficient SS nerf = RS is left with next to no options to clear Ang. The 2H revamp did wonders for RS feeling Thief again, going back to CS hurts, going back to a worse CS means content would be nigh unplayable akin to pre Hera rework anguish.

[sage wedge]

Ahh I'm lazy and haven't done much new anguish yet.

[signal heron]

I can run Anguish 50 with a Swansong in old anguish and it's safe - the two don't correlate

[sage wedge]

Oh ok, ignore my comment then ig.

Now ur making me want to grind new anguish.

[junior imp]

It's a different topic, though. We have a larger patch to release, and the more class iterations that go into it the longer it gets delayed. It'd be much better to get this one out the door, and address that separately. Would be faster for everyone

The name of this thread is SS & Gilga Changes, even

[signal heron]

I think we all want to grind new anguish, but at the same time this thread works to keep it getting pushed back because we say we're not happy 😆

The rest of anguish 2.0 development seems to be going well

[sly geode]

The damage is definitely toned way down. M2 buffs are now important, but this really just translates to Diety will be super dominant

[junior imp]

The reality is folks will never be perfectly happy, which is understandable because you're all so passionate. We need to decide where the line is on what is acceptable enough to get out in a single patch, to make sure they actually happen

[sly geode]

I will leave this thread forever if realm got an equitable option to CS 🤷‍♂️

No idea how AV fares from a magic perspective, but at least they aren't locked to 2H as their only alternative

Thats been the ask since celestial classes were launched

And somehow it turned into a new mechanic for gilga 🫠

[fringe mirage]

After waiting over a year for ang 2.0 I don't see the point in rushing the beta. What's another few weeks at this point. There's always massively long waits for new content and then betas are rushed through like no other. I'm guessing this beta has far more feedback than most if not all others

So why rush it out on a dev standpoint

[thin tiger]

Big day here today gents

[junior imp]

Unsure where the expectation that tweaks to SS and the class that uses it most would also be a tweak to Realmshifter has come from, honestly.
It's out of scope for an update focused on (primarily Anguish, but to a lesser extent) SS.

That's a converation for an entirely different thread, outside of the beta. If there is a desire to discuss Realmshifter alternates to SS, I'd say that lives outside of Beta discussion

[golden sigil]

Say Yes to Cleave™️

[sly geode]

If the only reliable option realm has is SS/CS, then it belongs here. Both from a power perspective and a i have no other options perspective

Most people would probably be fine with leaving CS as a moderately overtuned option if we could use anything else to even close to the same effect

[junior imp]

It's been over a year, it's hardly rushed. Updates need to go to live to ensure that the reality of them is realised, and we can actually adjust with real numbers with large player bases.

Most of the commentary here doesn't hit the majority of our players, so they need to see and play with things also.

[sly geode]

But when its the only option, and there is no room for other discourse, the entire conversation turns into a "nerf this thing"

[thin tiger]

Main issue: Ward skills are the only viable horde option

Minor issues: melee horde options

[junior imp]

I need to sleep - but let's move the buff Realmshifter chatter out of this thread please.
We're focused on SS, and Gilga Changes in here

[placid sedge]

Very sympathetic and understanding. Ive yet to be able to do in deoth testing for Realm due to local issues with internet and such.

Id just like to say that RS being able to be able to complete Ang content is relavent to this converstion when SS/CS is the method that can traditionally be done in. SS alterations are needed and if that takes it off the slate for RS thats totally fair(and honestly good imo as I and so many others dislike playing RS like a Gilgalite, its not fun at all). But taking that off the slate likely leaves RS with no real way to engage in Ang content to any real depth.

If the studio is content with shipping another form of Ang where a class os heavily restricted thats fine and we will await a RS Revamp to allow is to enjoy said content.

Again, I have been unable to access beta due to personal situation but can come back in a seperate or related thread with numbers or specifics.

[signal heron]

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1374466081741209641

[sly geode]

So to make sure I understand

In a thread about chained shield and spiked shield

Realmshifter conversations aren't allowed
But gilga conversations are

really

[wild island]

what if they just nerf ss for non-gilgas and add something later for dorado to do

[signal heron]

New thread for CS, rather than SS

[wild island]

like, not all at once

[junior imp]

Mentioned earlier but already buried, there is a bonus to Two Hander weapons on Anguish gear, and it received a buff with this latest update too (or should have)

Night folks, happy Ornaversary

[smoky tusk]

Umm, a buff

[thin tiger]

Big day!

[smoky tusk]

+200% two-handed dmg?

[wild island]

+x% dmg when moving, where x is number of meters walked in the previous 30 seconds

[junior imp]

This is a mischaracterisation of what I said, and honestly it's becoming disruptive Bwubble.
I've asked multiple times to adjust the tone, even more so over the years. Please heed the advice, it makes things much smoother for everyone

This thread is focused on SS and Gilga changes, so anything outside of that topic should stay in a separate thread. That is consistent with every thread we've ever had

[late oracle]

Tbh I get it, to refer back to the candles point, if SS was the only build worth using and it is now nerfed, then its easier to just lower the anguish difficulty candle if things are too tough across the board at the high end.

[broken bough]

yeah, if SS/CS is in a state where it is inline with comparables and the overall ability landscape is smoother, then the content can be more effectively balanced around that landscape. if realm is underperforming, then we can readjust

we can't solve everything over the duration of a beta, and at some point just need to press on

the meta is going to shift violently imo - we'll need to see what everything looks like on the other side

[languid yoke]

Violent shifts

[late oracle]

Ok ship it while we still have 50% dungeon CD

[broken bough]

kk

[west verge]

🫶

[languid yoke]

https://tenor.com/view/bill-o-reilly-well-do-it-live-mad-angry-gif-11562518

[placid sedge]

Truthfully, I am okay if RS is left in a bad spot and has to go through a dry spell just as long as we know this problem can be on the slate quickly. It doesnt feel great to have to wait even longer to access Ang2 with the class but the class could use some love, not just in this category alone.

I dont think there is anything wrong with shipping with RS having a lack of ability to tackle this content since the content can be seen as largely optional.

[hazy comet]

Same ^

[placid sedge]

But giving feedback about SS/CS from RS perspective I think was important for those who have mentioned it and was relavent to the conversation.

[thin tiger]

I feel like as a player that loves the game, played over the years, and have posted on this discord frequently.

I think as a player there is pressure to panic in chat here to get things you experience as balance issues is addressed as there have been few and far between balance passes.

I just want to note that if the tone does get panicy here, and people do get hot in convos. It could be seen as the time pressure stress from a player perspective

[broken bough]

summoner and beo are right there with you, fwiw

[signal heron]

That's true tbf. Balance patches take a long time, so people get heated and increase the scope of the patch in discussion threads, so balance patches take even longer... and so on

[thin tiger]

Just worth pointing out 😃

[broken bough]

Panic Guild ™️

[hazy comet]

It would be awesome to see ang released, get a couple months in live and see where we are at, then do a balance all around. CS might be meta for that 2 months, so long as changes can happen

[languid yoke]

Passionate Guild, perhaps

[gritty plinth]

Beo needs love??

[languid yoke]

always

[gritty plinth]

News to literally everyone I think

[languid yoke]

Bestial bonds I believe is the biggest one

[lilac cliff]

Hp scaling kills beoA in anguish dungeons as much as it kills gs

[sly geode]

Its almost like providing the same feedback on loop for years and it getting ignored/invalidated by the studio leads to having to be more and more disruptive to get anything done

But whatever. The feedback is there, do what yall want with it. Im done testing and participating so that I can be told the concerns are in the wrong place or are once again out of scope.

Players have pointed out problems for years that the studio doesn't feel like addressing because it needs to be "live". And its worked sooooo well watching the game break and then takes months or years to fix it

[junior imp]

We don't have a classline that feels their class is perfect, nor will we ever. In our bubbles within our own classlines, the issues we face feel more important than what others experience

[gritty plinth]

Yeah humans are biased, but beo has always seemed an extremely strong class in general

🤷‍♂️

[broken bough]

there's a lot of concern as angiush gear scaling may not work out as well for beo/summoner/damage-secondary classes

it's just really a note that RS is not the only classline feeling Anguish may not work out for them

[lilac cliff]

Definitely in live, I'm just saying that hp scaling hurts beoA anguish horde dungeons as much as it hurts summoners

[languid yoke]

the pets/summons aint keeping up with the players, so to speak

[placid sedge]

totally fair, as I mentioned I have no issue with it shipping even if balance wise things arent perfect. echoing what S2 said letting it ship with good mechanics ironed out means we can engage with it then provide better feedback.

just wanted to express the sentiment that I appreciate others saying their piece and felt it relavent to what was being discussed but also not in the camp of feeling things need changed before ship. Changing post-live is fine when it comes to balancing optional content.

[young river]

Well I hope this Frenzy is a good button because right now my raid damage on Beta is about 8% of what it is on live

[broken bough]

do you have a weapon equipped?

[young river]

Yes

[signal heron]

Do you utilize elemental damage boosters?

[young river]

no

[late oracle]

I'm seeing the same thing, buffed SS3 on AL 187, no anguish is doing 200k to raids.

[broken bough]

i can't see 8% being possible with today's changes

[young river]

I am hitting for 650k full buffed with DC all attack buffs and t attack up

[polar bronze]

Maybe not as a whole but can I throw out that I still think the Heretic rework rocks! I can point out dex and accuracy or compare to Spiked Shield or whatever but the Omnimancy classes are too dang fun IMO

For some extra positivity for the day! 😄

[snow spindle]

Frenzy actually just opens Discord with a pre-made Angry Message Template to complain about SS damage

[west verge]

hmmm

[snow spindle]

"This is unacceptable. I am Ascension Level __ and my damage went down by __%! I have been playing since ____ and I feel like my time and effort have not been respected, and if this isn't reversed right now, I am going to delete my account and leave Maincord."

[haughty turtle]

Let me just thank you for being the player that has provided the most test-based feedback out of the entire beta. 90% of people are just talking about how they feel about the changes, while you’ve been grinding the beta since it launched. I had hoped that would make your feedback more valuable but alas

[polar sentinel]

something is wrong, i can feel it

[west verge]

im guessing something with base damage formula is one too many characters

we saw this last week

[trim ruin]

argh, I was making a great post with numbers in the CS thread which just got locked 😩 and apparently that deletes the partial post in progress

[junior imp]

Chained Shield adjustments can live here, it was a misunderstanding of the request I made to move the buff Realmshifter chatter out of the thread

[young river]

I thought you were going to sleep 😄

[west verge]

this is dangyAi

[junior imp]

#1370141629444395028 message

[golden sigil]

Odies Proofs of Panic stockpile: 9,999,999,999+

[junior imp]

I'd love to sleep, but I don't like abandoning the community when they are feeling intensly about a thing if I can help it

[gritty plinth]

!chatgpt enable dangy

[signal heron]

Not that anybody cries any tears for Deity, but Deity Ursa also uses CS.

Most of them are just fine swapping to another Deity and using mage spells

[snow spindle]

/suggest Dangy should be able to sleep

[west verge]

suggest community be less passionate for like 8 hours

[languid yoke]

no brakes on this passion train, brother

[placid sedge]

I think the major detail lost in the discussion is Ang2 and Anguish as a whole is mostly optional and not using it for a month or 2 by no means makes the game unplayable. Unbalanced Ang for a handful of weeks is fine imo.

[half karma]

MY BODY IS READY

[hazy comet]

@junior imp I think the only thing left here is addressing what Bwubble has been saying about the balance of CS within anguish. If the studio is OK with CS continuing to be meta for all classes in difficult content, then ship it as is.

Please sleep! We can summarize for you😅

[junior imp]

Pings me then tells me to sleep, can't have both

lol

[pseudo sonnet]

Hes trying to make sure his class is still viable when he wakes up lol

[west verge]

🤌

[polar bronze]

If the damage is significantly reduced, fixed miss is removed for at least PvP

And Frenzy enables an option to throw defenses away for a crazy damage boost, that does sound like a gold way to go about it?

Then add something for Realmies?

[hazy comet]

Aw come on you said you were staying up😂 im telling you not to

[junior imp]

My two main desires right now:

1 - #1370141629444395028 message

and play with
2 - #1370141629444395028 message

[hazy comet]

Alright lets get to testing

[polar bronze]

I don't know the AL comparison but hitting for 650k on beta is only a little less than my Ultima on live until I add in berserks or get a Blight to proc (they never stick)

[junior imp]

#1370141629444395028 message

[young river]

I'm working on Number 1, from Odie's comment something may be bugged.

[polar bronze]

Well, about 200k less to be precise but considering I have no defenses and barely any ward that seems... okayish? From the glass cannon looking at the tank perspective?

[junior imp]

Let's focus on the one thing, then move onto Realmies post update I think

[trim ruin]

Just the numbers:

(All with the same gear, AL114, 277k ward 8k att 8k mag 11k def 10k res -- "defensive loadout")
GSA CS went from 130k to 45k live->beta.
Turn1 autosummons deal 50k + 75k on average.
(not counting crit) RealmStrikes22 is ~40k.
(not counting crit) Chakram is ~40k.
(not counting crit) AV2 is ~20k.
(not counting crit) Verse4 is ~30k.

Overall this level of reduction puts it in the right ballpark, instead of being incredibly outside it.
I can't really speak to why this setup was unbothered by previous changes, or why I'm only seeing a 65% reduction and not a 92% reduction like some gilgas in this thread.

[echo bone]

I have updated Two-handed bonus on my Ang modifier visual for those curious (from my very limited testing)
#1369690605835387040 message
If you find something out of the range lmk 👍

[peak girder]

so Frenzy is like, always Collateral Damage?

(note, i'm not Gilga, i'm mostly Deity 🙈 )

[broken bough]

no deities allowed

[late oracle]

Frenzy looks like:

Can only cast frenzy buff at full ward
While active frenzy gives 1.5x damage but drains X ward
Cannot be turned off once cast

Is that right?

[broken bough]

yes

well, 1.5x ward-to-damage damage

[west verge]

not a true 1:1 but, beta vs live

gear is the same

[wanton sonnet]

Now can you snapshot it

[snow spindle]

Interesting. If it were all damage it'd give gilgas more of a chance to go non-SS
But this is just the opinion of a non gilga-er

[west verge]

i cant tell if this is intended but given the way that raid damage looks it seems bugged

[broken bough]

is the raid damage comparable to other options?

[west verge]

i dont understand.

are you saying that this is the expected damage for SS3 in a raiding scenario?

im not sure what other options this is supposed to be benchmarked against

when i tested yesterday it was around 5mil

[broken bough]

here's a good comparison by fux: #1370141629444395028 message

[west verge]

right and that is on GSA

[broken bough]

yup, and a similar chart can be made by other classes, no?

[west verge]

he compared CS damage. which is similar to my second image live/beta

you asked about raid damage

which is not the same comparison

unless I am missing something

[broken bough]

i'm very confused

[west verge]

#1370141629444395028 message this is inline with Fux's CS comparison

[trim ruin]

I would say the GSA opinion ||at the risk of speaking for others|| is that it's kinda insane that CS even works at all, let alone being the ~best option for safety and damage, especially for an extended period of time.

GS(A) afaik doesn't use SS in raids as much. It would theoretically still work there just as CS does for (anguished) mob pve, but Ultima is just too easy for most raids and then we have our own quadratic scaling thing in the form of BP at high ascensions anyway.

[broken bough]

my raid damage question was a response to this, which seemed to be a raid damage question

[young river]

add me to that, I can't see how going from 7.5 million to 650k is not a bug. IMO with Gilgamesh you can't really compare a SS build to any other build. You have to commit to one or the other.

[west verge]

sorry i may have not been clear. Raid damage looks very low. so when I tested CS the damage also looked so low to me that its damage is impacted the same way my raid damage is

[broken bough]

if the damage of spiked shield and company is comparable to the other endgame offerings, then perhaps we are close to balance. if its wildly lower, then perhaps we have a bug

[west verge]

yes...I think Geppu and Strahd are also saying this

[polar sentinel]

me too

[signal heron]

Fux's comparison was good, but was also flawed because it was a setup optimized for SS damage

[fringe mirage]

Have any gilgas tried a non ss frenzy build..?

[west verge]

fux's comparison looks like CS turn 1 horde damage comparisons.

[placid sedge]

Wouldnt making SS a Gilgamesh exclusive class skill akin to calls on Beo, Realmshift on RS, Summon play on GS a better way of making numbers more accurate by reducing the sheer scope of what needs adressed and the complication of the formula in terms of balancing for Gilg and everyone else?

[west verge]

sigh

[young river]

I am not sure what Enserric can do but I can put a GS 4 spam build together that can almost beat SS3 in damage right now

[west verge]

please keep it focused

to just testing SS changes

or else the thread will derail again

[signal heron]

In a setup optimized for SS damage... SS did comparable damage to skills that that particular loadout was not optimized for at all

[junior imp]

For clarity - I think Odie's asking not whether damage is lower than live, but whether it's now closer to the same capabilities of other end game skills.

SS has been called out by the community as both too strong from a damage point of view, and survivability. Need to get it in line (balanced) with other skills

Is it closer to other end game skills on other classes now?

[west verge]

multiple gilgas went straight to raid damage testing and see a ~90% reduction. it does not seem intended

[fringe mirage]

Well is the point of frenzy and ss changes to make gilgas go away from a tank damage perspective? If so, I dont think its derailing

[west verge]

no one here tested frenzy yet

as far as I can tell

[signal heron]

I would say in raids, given what Strahd showed, that is significantly lower than other classes' raid options.

[west verge]

I dont have that update, but server side changes were pushed

and are testable

so if its not a bug then its quite a reduction

im interested in seeing SS changes first

[polar sentinel]

It costs 25% max ward per turn - which is a huge yikes

[west verge]

not testing other raid skill options

[polar sentinel]

not sure if it's worth to use it

[young river]

You do realize if that happens, without alternatives there's no reason to play Gilgamesh in raids as every other class has better options than what we can do otherwise, yes?

[late oracle]

Is it max ward? I was having trouble depleting my ward using it

[trim ruin]

kinda? I'd say the build is optimized for lots of ward and defenses with a single (weapon) slot being a celaxe with selenehands.

For the same defenses, the other setups would have a weapon slot like a lute with the exact same selenehands, or promhands.
I don't think it would be a world of difference at any rate.

It becomes more interesting if you're talking about sacrificing defenses for damage in which case there'd be several gear switches to make -- but that's no longer an apples to apples comparison.

[signal heron]

I memed around and made Upward Strike II deal over 1m damage in a different thread, currently it seems like you can't make SS3 deal over 1m damage.

[fringe mirage]

Man, tdubs has given TONS of alternatives on OL

[sterile crescent]

ensseric how many als

[junior imp]

Thanks, that's more what we're aiming for.
If we can see where a comparable investment build for another class stacks up against this, we can tweak numbers until we've got closer to parity with the obvious considerations around defence etc

[west verge]

166

[sterile crescent]

ok

[young river]

I didn't say we didn't have alternatives but nothing another class can't do better.

[polar sentinel]

costs me the same 25% ever turn

[sterile crescent]

if you want a reference, that damage matches my al9 beoh verse4 on live, minus the cd

[signal heron]

I'll put together a high safety Realmshifter build for comparison then. One moment

[sterile crescent]

although this is with dc and gm up

but yeah

[young river]

This damage is worse than I could do to a raid in 2021 with the first nerfed Spiekd Shield and we saw what that did to Gilga numbers.

[broken bough]

k, let's get a tweak going. give me a few

[west verge]

i thought the iteration prior to this raid wise was fine

but if that needed to be punched down more than so be it

[broken bough]

some good skills to compare against:

Realm Strikes II
Ultima Strikes
Horizontal Slash IV
Fey Cataclism, et all
Ultima

[young river]

Let me see what sort of janky Realmstrikes build I can do on Beta with Ursa

[fringe mirage]

Given you may not be able to do horde well anymore either so the statement may not hold water now lol

[young river]

But I am still confused why I should have to compare Gilga capstone skill on a gilga to capstone skills from other classes, while I am playign a Gilga.

[west verge]

gilga has long been considered a premier raider and has organically formed that over time. Much of this is in part to its additional "better usage of SS" but also SS damage scaling. Do we want to erase this and have it be equivalent to all other options to achieve balance?

[trim ruin]

As long as "raid safety" is a part of the "raid speed" conversation, then I think the thread will be successful. 😅

If it circles around dps only and doesn't account for survivability loss switching to gear with more atk/dex/crit/etc. in lieu of ward... then I guess we'll be going back around again for a while.

[west verge]

or can it exist as something slightly better in this particular context

[signal heron]

This new Samsung One UI update sucks, screenshots have like a 3 second lag between pressing the button and happening so I can't capture the damage number on Realmstrikes -.-

[west verge]

also, to note, the "glass cannon" concept. I achieved better damage going swash with much less ward than normal raiding set up

[polar sentinel]

damage log?

[west verge]

this was post adjustments

[broken bough]

to be fair - i never said stay Gilga 😎

in a purely damage balance conversation - Gilga with SS should do something comparable to a Heretic with Ultima

[signal heron]

I will if I have to but I wanted the buffs too

[sterile crescent]

my al9 verse4 beoh is definitely not as survivable as ensseric's al100something gilga but probably comparably survivable to an al9 gilga

[west verge]

being that SS3 is 1 turn, should the benchmark be quickcast ultima?

[signal heron]

I will say this setup takes longer to set up than Gilga and has some risk, but I'm also wearing full immunity accessories and a Beguiled Mystic Katar for those immunities.

Edit: AL 68 in beta

[broken bough]

yeah, good point

[signal heron]

Hitting for around 1m damage

[young river]

Where is Konq when i need some of his ultima raiding prowess

[fringe mirage]

I have posted 1 turn ultima in here a few times now. I hit about 4.5m with snotra, DC, mimics and t.mage^^^

[real blade]

qc ultima is a glass cannon tho

[fringe mirage]

5m when I get closer to blue line.

That is with a 40% crit 30% dragon amity

[west verge]

right which is similar to what I was doing on gilga prior to these changes

[fringe mirage]

But you're a tank and I die fast

[west verge]

full Bastile, gunnr, bears, ATT1, DC double earth amity

[fringe mirage]

My gilga out performed my heretic by miles in live raiding

[west verge]

sounds like heretic should get a crit muti boost but thats just me

[fringe mirage]

I had zero concerns of dying and I only used gunnr

Raids took me about 5 - 10 seconds and i wasnt optimized

[signal heron]

If I go as glass cannon as I'm comfortable going, I do 2-3m per attack with Rend/Daggers on Realmshifter Dorado at AL 76

[sterile crescent]

need to speedrun monument with 4min left on it right now but I can provide screenshots of my al9 beoh in a bit if y'all want

[signal heron]

I guess we need to answer the question:

Gilga has always been the best raider, do they keep that title?

And I mean, that's up to Odie I guess

[west verge]

it doesnt have to be. but the goal of non-gilga players seems to be that they want the class to be slower than everyone else damage wise simply because it is a "tank" in their eyes

we can tune gilga down further if you want this is fine

but that is my perception

[signal heron]

Don't generalize all non-gilga players, that's never been my goal lol

[west verge]

as to whether that sort of balance is fun or not is a different quesiton

[west verge]

youve never called it a tank

i also want to be as frank as possible about this discussion

[real blade]

I mean yeah, doesnt there need to be a tradeoff to safety? Iirc several years ago Odie told us GSA summon raiding was fine being slow because it was safe, that principle just never applied to gilga

[west verge]

in what context?

a heretic even in full glass cannon gear at 150+ AL can buff for multiple turns and 1 shot any raid today

they will not die during that set up

[real blade]

my guess is safety will matter with anguish raids

[late oracle]

While I think it matters in terms of anguish, safety is a much less valuable stat than speed. I think most people are mine/enserrics AL will have no risk fighting a standard raid, no matter the build. And even if they do die, theyre usually rotating through 100 other bosses so there is no real penalty.

[west verge]

anguish raids is a bit different convo

I can scale the damage of any of those raids to kill me beyond my ward

[signal heron]

The rules of "slow but safe" has never applied to endgame Gilga, going as far back to the legendary 3 minute Arisen Morrigan kills in the ancient past.

[young river]

Alright, completely janky Gilga Ursa US build I just put together hits for 4.5million, so over 2 million dpt

[west verge]

yeah. Im on board with getting rid of all safety

outside of anguish 2.0 I will still rip through raids

[signal heron]

This is just kind of a statement rather than saying something needs to desperately change

[echo bone]

My current turn 4 Dmg with my main Ultimastrikes build at AL99 (slightly different to be more optimized for new element stacking)

[junior imp]

Minor note for Frenzy - may need to make it available from 95%+ ward rather than 100%. If you DB, it can be quite hard to maintain 100% to activate Frenzy

[broken bough]

imo, getting rid of the satefy side of gilga just leaves you with RS

[signal heron]

Realmshifter is the "slow" but safe raiding class

[broken bough]

why have both classes?

[echo bone]

There is meant to be a video attached to this to comparing SS...

[signal heron]

This is not a joke - always has been. Double defenses after a long setup phase and slowly managing statuses while you kill the raid

[west verge]

yeah realm high tenacity is the slow safe raider in a sense lol

and with MF active

[sterile crescent]

granted the lute has two selene hands on it so post beta the damage will be lower

[junior imp]

Tbh although the numbers might not be perfect yet, in playing with the raiding on my Gilga using SS, I'm instantly already theory crafting how I can finally be free of SS and start using other melee skills with my infinite defenses haha

[signal heron]

Gilga is fast and safe, Realmshifter is slow and defensive

Edit: in raiding

[polar bronze]

Is it fair to do a pick 2 diagram with

-Damage
-Safety
-Speed

And you shouldn't get all 3? Or would you add big numbers vs sustained damage and then do pick 2 of the 4?

[west verge]

thanks, also the red number got me for a sec

[late oracle]

Damage is speed

[west verge]

i forgot that it doesnt apply to ultima

[broken bough]

more of a radar chart than a "pick 2" imo. but that radar chart should not make a perfect triagle

[junior imp]

I think in this case Erdrick means single turn damage vs DPS. Those are different things

[signal heron]

Speed is also safety

[junior imp]

If SS is a nuke, it shouldn't also be that every turn

[west verge]

I would go back to old gilga prior to all the ward recovery mechanicsm. Build up a big nuke, toss it, recover your ward with WoL

[fringe mirage]

That is at 177 AL

[west verge]

I do not want to pretend to be a tank and toss out 10X more SS for a mass of raids at my OT

[young river]

This is partially why I was saying one of the things that busted SS was prom feet

[west verge]

that said I use beguiled axe X in all my raiding

i only use prom feet in anguish 1.0 and some in towers

[broken bough]

nobody wants 10X here.

what X is most appropriate to you?

[west verge]

i mentioned it earlier. the prior iteration felt good. from my testing it was roughly a 50-60% damage reduction. I can over come that by adding zerks

[broken bough]

but you are using the class that is designed to be the warrior-tank archetype, make no mistake

[west verge]

if current ultima needs to perform better than that, I can see it going to 65-75%

[broken bough]

okay, try now please

[west verge]

sure

i will do an oracle and a BoF comparison

[broken bough]

stack attack

[polar bronze]

Speaking from less experience than many of y'all with different classes-

Gilgamesh was boring to me because of how safe it felt but it was consistent and I have moments where I really want that consistency - taken to the extreme with Selene Hands raiding

Deity ran into a similar problem with stacking Buff duration albeit my damage got eaten pretty hard but I could just tank everything without even batting an eye lash (and on DAra stack the passive and temp buffs)

Heretic has speed and damage which Deity did not and fun interactions with Efficacious and Flasks but is lacking in survival and I think that's fun and fine

While it's a bit surprising to me to see how much damage Gilga can do with everything (I didn't optimize my builds when I was on it) and even more so Beo and Gilga, I don't think that's inherently an issue except that the builds are also more defensive and more accurate than anything I can throw together on Heretic or Realm. Oh and the whole Ascensions blowing PvP SS builds out of proportion

Hence my question about the chart - accuracy could probably be on there too

[young river]

Now it's about 1.8 million

[west verge]

Sharing one moment

[junior imp]

Classic beta testing

[young river]

Yeah i got like 5 Ornates ogg beguiled Polly a minute ago 😄

[gritty plinth]

I don't think this is 3 things really, it can be boiled down to Safety and Damage. More speed just means less damage or less safety but that's a player choice regardless of build or class.

Summoner happens to have no speed because they have little damage in raids

[west verge]

im mostly good i think, with the baseline raiding. though i would see the damage likely drop off a lot on something like amorri. idk how anguish raiding would be.

[signal heron]

AL 44 Gilgamesh
In live*
For a bit of interesting comparison of what's always been possible without celestial weapons/broken amities

However, this was only possible every few turns without recovering ward with DB/WoO

[west verge]

Going full attack up to 23k attack is increasing less than i expected i guess?

[junior imp]

Frenzy quite hard to trigger with DB active - would love a minor adjustment there to test out the different builds we can get going 🙏

(Suggest 90-95% ward required, rather than 100%)

[thin tiger]

This is my full realm c deep raid build after 20ish turns (no dc procs sadly) at AL 80

This is my AL 0 herc

[broken bough]

close fights

[west verge]

i get that is a bit tongue in cheek given that there is no risk in this

[signal heron]

Ok going up to high crit chain for this is an unfair comparison lol

[echo bone]

BeoH Oracle, turn 3/4 dmg, US vs SS3

[west verge]

but any other class at a similar level AL is not going to show any risk. unfortunately my anguish raiding is not leveled in beta so I cant test there

[young river]

Now I have to go test on 0 asc to see how badly this hurt if any

[west verge]

as usually i do hope that lower AL gilgas will provide feedback

[gritty plinth]

You can't just use ALs to wave away risk. We aren't just comparing for the sake of high AL

[west verge]

i can because that is my context

[thin tiger]

I actually think it is a good one. What does max passive look pound for pound?

[west verge]

these changes impact my current experience

[broken bough]

this calc is arguably best for low/new gilga as it uses total ward instead of current (so that you can spend more towards m2)

[west verge]

hence why is contextualized my feedback

[gritty plinth]

Your context is that every class has no risk at this AL, so it's moot feedback

[thin tiger]

Not at all

[west verge]

thanks for qualifying my feedback for me

appreciate it

[broken bough]

can we be less saucy in here

[languid yoke]

Less passion

[gritty plinth]

The context we need to look at is anguish 2.0 and across all AL ranges

[west verge]

I will leave it to other people playing gilga now 🙂

[broken bough]

https://media.tenor.com/TvfFfIIDL_MAAAAM/calmdown-stop.gif

[gritty plinth]

This wasn't an attack on you

[trim ruin]

humble suggestion that raid HP be increased by a factor of 10x so that players can need to care about survival
perhaps it can be done once a month or so
and if y'all really want you could even have us fight the developers 😄

[young river]

0 Ascension but really good gear

[signal heron]

Don't worry, Anguish does this

Along with restricting ALs

[trim ruin]

I am excited 🙂

[onyx topaz]

What does frenzy do?

[languid yoke]

increase damage at the cost of ward

[young river]

It's like Berserk that devours your ward

[signal heron]

Unfortunately we may need to cycle back to the whole raiding speed/safety thing after Anguish 2.0 releases and everyone is able to do Shackled raiding to test

[broken bough]

-suggest covyn is a perma-anguish boss

[languid yoke]

if he continues to drop his gear, 100% agree lol

[half karma]

AL77, beta
Atk1, 2, gunnr, affinity, deific channel

[gritty plinth]

Does frenzy really only apply to shield skills? Wouldn't it be an awesome way of boosting gilga's options beyond ss?

[thin tiger]

AL0 SS3 as gherc on anguish 3

[languid yoke]

this current build seems like it's in line, no ?

[thin tiger]

Looking at this I forgot to slot raider

[broken bough]

can definitely explore this

[thin tiger]

What beta version does frenzy exist on?

[broken bough]

.24beta

[tawny sparrow]

With my small try it seems to nerf rend/dagger but given the random damage I'm not going to go too far

[young river]

Alright, I'm done for now. I feel like I've been enough of a pain in the arse for the day. Whatever goes live we'll figure it out Gilga Bros 👊

[thin tiger]

Gherc, AL0 S tier gear, anguish 3

Note the large investment into CD as well.

[onyx topaz]

A.pumpkinless leggings aren't better? Or is it mana regen focused

[thin tiger]

That is the warrior pants, gherc cant equipt mage pants

[onyx topaz]

Ah gotcha, forgot that detail

[thin tiger]

Also depends if you value attack more or not. Seems like attack is much more valuable in the new calc so I just had these pants

[onyx topaz]

A.pumpkinless is usable by all classes btw

[thin tiger]

With pump pants

[gritty plinth]

So the attack is more valuable than the extra ward from pumpkinless

[thin tiger]

Gear in the above photos for gilga requires a huge investment into some of the longest raid chases in orna (fey sneak and hyperion). 195+ quality of all gear, 8 sup+ bristles, and a gain x max hp and 5% ward amnity

Oh and 10 ornate jocs

My corvus is using the wrong pet for auto dc. but using an unreliable skill, covering many immunities and trying to still stay as tanky as possible to tank a hit and with 80ALs I get this:

Maybe my tests dont matter. I have the 3.17.21 beta that is on testflight

[trim ruin]

fwiw -- client version wouldn't determine damage. that's a server calculation.

but lacking the newest client version would mean lacking Frenzy (client needs to be aware of it to tell the server that's what it wants to do on its turn), and theoretically Frenzy should be a gilga-specific uplift especially in a raiding scenario/something past turn1.

[thin tiger]

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification

[half karma]

Its pretty hard to activate rn 😬

Also its a ward mechanic for gursa too, which feels a bit sus 🤔

[trim ruin]

As much as I love this topic, I think I'm going to let y'all test Frenzy and I'll focus on the most immediately testable topic for me which is off-class (GS) ss usage in a pve context. 🙏 In anguish2.0, and also non-anguished.

[west verge]

something I want to pick on a bit is much of this balance is in the context of anguish 2.0

which again, is optional and a different stats land scape when it comes to raid stats and your stats with shackles

I dont want the changes for the pve landscape outside of anguish 2.0 to be determined by those metrics solely

outside of anguish 2.0, all the iteration I had tested a bit ago accomplishes is slowing down raiding speed

there is no trade off in safety, there is no threat

i think this is my peace for the day though I am tired

[trim ruin]

While it bothers me that non-anguish pve is discounted -- that it's going to be a designated easy-mode and anguish is the only place where balancing happens -- I can live with it I guess. 😅 As a personal decision I would prefer the game just have one (good, interesting, well-tested, balanced) difficulty, but if it's gotta be segmented to try and join two disparate playergroups together then alright.

[real blade]

dont want to derail the thread too much here but dont you think this is because you're T11 high AL? I dont think all the raids are that easy for newer T10 players. Anguish will probably just be the way to go for endgame playrs who want some difficulty

[trim ruin]

My biggest ask for SS from day1 of balance talk was to get rid of the quadratic scaling. 😅
Such that a T11 high AL is "only" like 10x stronger than a newer T10 player instead of 40x stronger.

[thin tiger]

What a statement

Anyways. I am having fun burn through anguish content in beta. I want to do a large summary post on it later. But I have found so far the grind has been quite fun!

[pseudo sonnet]

Maybe party play makes it fun we can only hope

[pseudo sonnet]

How do you feel about the rewards to time investment?

[thin tiger]

So far? Pretty good if not gravy. Seems like raiding anguished is going to be the cash cow

Like might be over tuned a little. Could be a little slower to progression

[timid spindle]

I'm quite a bit confused by the new Frenzy mechanic:

• trigger looks dependent on some chance on being damaged
• after triggering, there is the need to actually activate the buff, which is represented by a red skull appearing in the buffs list, and if not activated the button greys out when changing floors(in dungeon)
• has some forme of limit on the times it can be activated?
  Or just a bug after missing activation X times
  -the buff has no context/explanation under Valor's classes abilities or in the codex
  -what does it do?😂

[half karma]

You can activate it when your ward becomes full and it guarantees CD procs as far as ive tested it

Doesnt quite fit gursa's vibes and also shuts down base and herc after a few turns since it drains a lot of ward per tick

imo of course

[timid spindle]

I agree with you on the GUrsa vibe, mostly because the class passive nerfs ward too much and doesn't have enough base HP at 250 0Als to compensate

Have to re-test the CD procs because I think I saw a couple of missed procs on attacks with frenzy on

[wild island]

is it different from pauldrons skills?

like radically different?

cause it sounds the same

[half karma]

It guarantees CD. May be seen as the ultimate pauldron lol

I think it guarantees actually. Darkertan said he missed a few procs

[broken bough]

Guaranteed CD + 50% Spiked shield damage

[pseudo sonnet]

That's a neat mechanic we have not seen yet!

[half karma]

Oh i didnt notice because the damage changed so much between Live and beta heheh

[last haven]

I'm confused. I feel the classline could have been better served with a tool that allows shifting away from spiked shield like a crit passive or something on gursa ||or something that would help it perform in endless||

[half karma]

I dont see much use since:
Gursa isnt focused on SS
Base and herc will have their wards fully depleted from it (self deactivates when ward = 0)

But i was skeptical about CD when it launched and i turned out to be very wrong

[last haven]

Other classes have other tools to build into once the adjustments go live (said crit passives, hybrid stats on deity/beo) which is why I feel it's been harder to go heavy-handed on this topic without killing gil

[last haven]

Also true. I guess I will see how the ability shakes out

[half karma]

Thats interesting. But it still makes gursa interact more with ward, which is something i thought gursa wouldnt do much

Since hes got the passive ward malus

Im not trying to dismiss the idea, im just thinking how it could be polished

[gritty plinth]

Doesn't frenzy just lower your ward

It would just be +50% damage -25% ward/turn

Who cares about the ward in that case

[timid spindle]

I probably saw this in my first test, last mob didn't get a CD proc but I had Frenzy on

[half karma]

I do. Im an enthusiast in not dying one might say

[half karma]

CD will only proc if the enemy is alive

If you kill the last enemy standing with your main hit it wont proc

[timid spindle]

Yes, I probably saw the last mob dying while using sweep

[brittle hound]

How does one access the frenzy skill? I Don't see it in the .24 orna beta yet

[timid spindle]

Valor classes only, just start a fight and it will be in the middle of the menu

[timid spindle]

After seeing Ensseric Gilga with 166Als, having nearly 50% more hp than a 25Als GUrsa, I definitely would like to suggest a buff to GUrsa base HPs (or total eHP) with a lesser scaling in high Ascension levels

[fringe mirage]

This is 10 AL and not even a full hp build like the one above lol. G.ursa definitely doesn't need an hp boost

[visual crescent]

Ss3 isnt op why fix it🤔😒

Turn 1 in live

[languid yoke]

https://tenor.com/view/shock-gif-25165864

[visual crescent]

Why brye show cap dmg turn 1

[wild island]

isnt this the problem in a nutshell? ..not gil balance...

h.slash 3 vs ss 3

(idk why weather flickering)

on a deity

[tawny holly]

That hs3 hit isn't even a crit though?

[wild island]

if it was a crit, would I still prefer it over ss3?

.. no

how can i build crit armor and amity and also survive dmg?

vs

how can i survive dmg and also hey free dmg

[tawny holly]

If you want to get an accurate comparison it needs to be a crit build

[slow pilot]

Including 2x40% crit amities. Problem with SS3 currently is the sustained damage. While running 3x Selene hands, you can not recover all ward lost via attacking. On HS3 I can hit for a million constantly, with SS3 I can hit for a million one time, then it gradually decreases except I use turns to get back to full dmg.

[visual crescent]

At enough al just ss3 then wol do dmg per turn better

[timid spindle]

tbh I don't get how this proves GUrsa has enough eHP.
If we then compare same Als on Gilga and GHerc, it still falls short while still having to cover for some sort of warrior "tank" role(as in not having an evasion mechanic outside misses).
If we look outside PvP context then, again, it's still way underperforming in taking hits while faking being an HP tank
The class should be the non-ward warrior alternative, spanning in to the thief equips pool forsaking high ward pieces to gain more on hp and dex(non-fixed miss chance)side, but has no other direct interaction with half the main stats of thief gear and still relys on a apparent ward pool

[half karma]

How different is ward consumption now? I feel like one CS is burning about 25% of my ward (after regen)

[young river]

Were you using the frenzy button?

[unborn spruce]

To be honest when we are TESTING the Beta, we should not have to GUESS what is the change Odie has made yesterday night.
Unless I missed that, we don't have an actual patch note every time something is changed in the beta for us to explain WHAT needs to be tested. Feels like the blind approach were people need to know by heart how much damage they are doing, how much HP they had yesterday, etc..
But as we test not only different classes, but also gears, play around with adornments... it's extremely difficult to know what makes it fluctuates

Imagine Working as a professional IT like I am and telling my clients 'well, figure out what changed yesterday, good luck :D'
I guess it won't go down well xD

If I missed the post it let me know but I didn't see it in the patch tab in game

[half karma]

No

[half karma]

I think this one was implemented a few days ago, but i havent tested too much these days

[unborn spruce]

Ok there is a 3.17 patch note that I read but it's dates 12/31/2025 for some reason

It's a mix and match of different patch.

Spiked shield/chained shield rework. So... can be anything

[half karma]

Also what 2 handed weapons do we realistically have to work with in ang2.0? I wanna be able to use things i farm, but i can only think of a.nakagami off the top of my head. Full AoEs wont be of much help since they're not too good in ang2, especially in gursas hands

Ybf and agatho are event locked

Would be nice to be able to really make use of labrys

Maybe as a non-crit chain attack

Also i'd like to point out that Gursa is an incredible idea for a different playstyle and odie was just spot on in creating it

[slow pilot]

How do I get the frenzy feature on iOS ? Haven’t gotten an update to .24, still testing on .21

[signal heron]

https://tenor.com/view/you-don't-invincible-omni-man-jk-simmons-that's-the-neat-thing-gif-4390372980992221432

The serious answer is that iOS beta updates are extremely slow to be pushed through Apple's review process

[slow pilot]

Feels like pd2 console all over again 🥲

[late oracle]

Some of my thoughts from testing:

Spiked shield: feels pretty reasonable in dungeons but very underwhelming in raids. Not sure how to reconcile this.

Frenzy: I like the idea generally but feels a bit clunky. I don't think it needs fixing for purpose of launching this live, but thoughts below.

1. Would lower activation threshold to 90-95% ward. Feels bad to get hit for 100 damage and lose option to frenzy.

2. Feels like the ward consumption is way too high to warrant use. Does frenzy drain double proc on chained shield? Feel like it could use a lower cost, possibly a flat ward cost as it would incentivize building ward, instead of just % ward Regen. Current cost limits its usage to either the last few hits of a raid or floor 25 boss in dungeon.

3. I feel like it should turn off at 0% ward.

[half karma]

SUGGESTION INCOMING
As a differential i'd like to suggest something:
Gursa looks like the berzerk kind of playstyle. The one that thrives in figthing when outnumbered. To really lean on that frenzy/frantic battlefield vibe, the suggestion i have is ditching his current stat passive and replacing it for something more battlefield dynamic.

Thrill of battle:
Stats change according to how many enemies one is facing.
1 enemy, +20%
2 enemies, +30%
3 enemies, +35%
4 enemies, +38%
5 enemies, +40%

That would make it a more engaging stat passive, more horde focused, better fit a frenzied animalistic playstyle and it would still not be the strongest stat passive in the game (by a mile and a half). Also make it not work in pvp like his current one (?)

Numbers are just an approximate idea*

[wild island]

can we toggle pauldrons on & off?

by using it again? like gait? i need to try

omg they do

[visual crescent]

Gait cant turn off

[wild island]

(ok go try it)

[real blade]

wym? Cant toggle gaits in beta

[wild island]

oh, youre right. i meant the ones that affect pet actions

"calls"

and "ballads"

[signal heron]

Stances are the toggleable ones

[wild island]

frenzy don't seem to toggle off

[half karma]

It auto disables when ward is fully depleted

Odie said it can also wear out before that i think 🤔

[wild island]

its also doing ward damage every turn, and idk if its helping my dmg

something weird going on w ss dmg and ward spend

[echo bone]

Seems to work fine for me? AL0 GUrsa, with/without frenzy turn 1/2 damage

[swift lava]

Dang what activates it again?

[signal heron]

The big red button

[swift lava]

Yeah that’s on me. What makes the button glow?

[broken bough]

full ward

[swift lava]

Oh dang, thanks 😊

[peak girder]

Is only possible to remove it if you consume all your ward right ?

[wild island]

i really like the armor-stance skills that gil is collecting (pauldrons, greaves, now shield), but idk how it shakes out fixing spike shield dominance

[broken bough]

this part is trying to address the main Gilga concern in the Spiked Shield nerf - of it being a one-trick pony that is left with little after the nerf

it also helps the concern of other classes using Spiked Shield more effectively than Gilga

[swift lava]

Also does that mean that gursa can use frenzy t1?

[thin tiger]

I love the idea. You dont have to omega grind for bristles and can more focus on attack/ward adornments

[half karma]

May be hard to activate in horde content though

[wild island]

i was able to activate it by buffing and then using bastion/defend

t1 on gursa is easy too. does it freeze the bastille bonus tho?

idk. i like it but i have bias, g.ursa <3, so im gonna say no more

[young river]

Overall my concerns are as follows:
-When I asked before what the class fantasy/design was for Gilga, I was told, a warrior class that is the best at utilizing it's ward. I am paraphrasing a bit as it's been awhile.
-Every archetype has a set of end game offensive capstone skills given to it. It would seem that those skills should be expected to be top performing skills for the class, the best choice as it were. For Gilga that is SS.
-There should be viable alternatives from dipping into other class trees but the viable alternatives from other classes such as Ultimastrikes, Realmstrikes, Ultima, Fey Unstables, Bloodpact should never be overly superior to the capstone skills from your own class.
-The above point is why we originally advocated for a change and we received one in the form of Collateral Damage. It allowed us to build outside of the traditional SS damage builds and into alternative builds and still perform at a level that while maybe not optimal was still strong enough to be viable.
-In large part I do believe Ursa came out to support alternative playstyles other than Spiked Shield.

As long as these concerns are respected, I'm pretty flexible with my expectations for the class. Obviously this is a difficult balance to strike given all the intricate factors and I do appreciate Odie's persistent efforts to try and find that magical middle ground.

[pseudo sonnet]

Gilga can use ultima strikes also it just doesn't do as much if you build tank and ward

[young river]

I believe I said that very thing, that falls under concern number 3

[pseudo sonnet]

Okay just trying to figure out your concern

[junior imp]

I know I don't speak for all Gilgas by any means - but if some of the other Gilga skills were brought up to par with Realmstrikes etc (or just below) I wouldn't be that upset.

SS is something we've been conditioned to build around, but I love the concept of not being tied to it

[west verge]

i agree with this summary. I think if SS3 is on par with something like ultima damage (Odie's words yesterday) when comparing similar buffs, gear, AL etc then we can work with that

[trim ruin]

regarding all the archetype/capstone talk: I'm not sure anyone disagrees that gilga is the best SS user.

It sounds instead like you just want SS to be able to deal the same damage as Ultima -- but that should only be true if the Ultima user is just as tanky as the SS user.* 🤷‍♂️ If SS does as good or better damage than other 'endgame capstone skills' + players can build exceedingly defensive while doing that, then it's just better than the rest.

*the only counter to this I've seen brought up is that defenses don't matter because everything dies instantly anyway.

[young river]

Maybe that's what it sounds like but that's not what I am saying. 🤦‍♂️

[west verge]

part of the attempt to alleviate the "tankiness" is a requirement to go full swash and maximize attack. I did that yesterday and it was underwhelming and not on par

context, i dont have access to frenzy yet so I cant test that

[west verge]

which skills are you referring to? GS3? Strikes of ursa?

[young river]

Strikes of Ursa is one of those skills that I so want it to be great but it just isn't

[half karma]

Frenzy is crazy management atm, but still manageable with a celestial weapon. Dmg in horde dg is super low though

It wont be manageable without a celest i think

[west verge]

I am a bit overly focused on raiding for myself. I already use man other skills on other content

[junior imp]

Guarding Strikes is what I'd think of first, then maybe Horizontal Slash etc

Strikes of Ursa is kind of adjacent. I don't tend to want to build around a Celestial Skill, would rather the beginning of Gilga path to be something where people are presented options

[late oracle]

I feel like SS needs some more juice, particularly in raiding context.

With same buffs active (bears, war cry, Gunnar, frenzy) I ran 2 builds. One was a SS build, one ultimastrikes. Ss3 had dc from ashen phoenix while US had lotan for a blight.

Build 1 high end ss build, full ornate JoC, hybrid amity with hybrid bonus
Caps out at about 3 m, and gets weaker every turn

Build 2 cobbled together ultimastrikes. 5-6m, inefficient/no adorns 20% fire damage amity.

US build is still 100% safe, actually has less attack than SS build and is way more effective. Not saying it shouldn't be a little more effective but this is a lot.

[west verge]

i like SS raiding. and if I am being as blunt as possible I do not want the efficiency of ss raiding taken away from me

[junior imp]

Maybe get Guarding Strikes going really well, and add Guarding Strikes IV?

[west verge]

I will dig my heels in on this point

[trim ruin]

Is there a problem if Gilga is the best SS user and SS does half the dps of a Heretic using Ultima ||the heretic capstone ||?
Is there a problem if Gilga using SS (with lots of ward) does less damage than Gilga using US (with more offensive crit/elemental gearing)?

[trim ruin]

US build is still 100% safe
Can you quantify the defensive difference between the two? I can believe it, but numbers would help.

[late oracle]

Posted

[young river]

I think I'd like to know what the intended use case for Strikes of Ursa is really.

[trim ruin]

faster than me 🙏

[late oracle]

Ultimastrikes does not suffer from the frenzy consumption of ward like SS does

[young river]

If it's meant to be a raiding skill, it needs to be maybe 1 turn and more M2 juice

[west verge]

if i have 600k ward, and US build has 100k ward, but the raid does the same damage to me because of my normal defenses due to AL + gear

[pseudo sonnet]

Should a SS3 from a tank do the same as a ultima from a glassy mage I think that's the balance we need to get right.

Right now ensseric in live is hitting one turn damage cap with minimal buffs (yes tons of als help but can a mage do that at his als I don't think so). I with ultima strikes and glass cannon need dragons blight and all the buffs to hit damage cap at 120als

[west verge]

then why are we focusing on the ward piece

[young river]

Well by 1 turn I meant 2 turns like Ultima 😄

[west verge]

gilga is not a tank

it was never supposed to be a tank

[junior imp]

I know I'm not being asked, but it is quite a subjective answer for everyone I'm sure.
We'd definitely want to be conscious of the folks who aren't part of these conversations being hit with a massive change out of the gate without much/any notice.

Though it's completely fine to change up your build, it's something to note that habits being formed and then becoming much less effective to the masses can be jarring too

[west verge]

my friend we will never agree on this but you laugh

what is our context? are we speaking raids in normal orna? or 2.0 anguish

[trim ruin]

So you lost over 90% of total ward and half your def stat, and gained a large amount of dex. I'm not sure that's a spurious or ignorable loss in an anguished raid world. Maybe in non-anguished pve where difficulty seems to be not a consideration (esp. with ascensions).

[late oracle]

Frenzy consumes ward at such a rate you lose damage and a ton of survivability for the same outcome. And the difference between these builds is pretty staggering. I could likely double the us build with a couple of amities

[half karma]

Also i feel like SS and variations are consuming even more ward by themselves now (not only CS)

[late oracle]

I agree this is more for normal raiding but tbh to a certain extent if you're doing 200k damage to a raid in anguish you might as well just dive in with ultimastrikes blow your load die and wait for the cd

And to some extent gilga losing its main raid capabilities for anguish raiding does hurt those who aren't engaged in anguish

[trim ruin]

I think it's good for players to have "high offense with risk" options for sure.
Speaking as a BP raider with like 20k ward that gets randomly one-shot even on normal raids.

There definitely exists more "slow and steady" options, which sometimes makes more sense or can be more fun.

[young river]

Personally I'm still a bit boggled at how we started with the two things that totally make SS broken are quadratic scaling and fixed miss rate and somewhow we ended up here.. It's alright though, I am willing to let it play out how it is and see how Gilga compares to everything else now in live play. I'll have to rely on Yoshi for Anguish 2.0 viability.

[trim ruin]

Agree with that -- if this patchset was just "remove quad scaling" and "remove fixed miss" then ship it, it would be fine.
But people pushed back against that strongly.

[west verge]

this isnt a glass cannon

nor is it a tank

[late oracle]

From my perspective with current numbers SS is never the choice for raiding

[west verge]

tbh i was fine with this

it would of been simpler

in the prior beta patch I supported both removal of fixed miss chance and nerfing ward scaling for AL

having it go from quad to linear or some log would of been fine as well

[late oracle]

I still think removing fixed miss is the way to go. Dex can be built into for gilga

[west verge]

now we are in some weird space where I feel like a crowd of people are telling me just dont use SS, i dont want to see SS remove it from the game, just go use a crit build like everyone else.

[trim ruin]

I have been consistent in "remove quad scaling" and was agnostic on "remove fixed miss" (because it's for pvp primarily, in a world where enemy dex scaling has gone away).

And yeah, n logn would also be acceptable. Anything that isn't n**2 😅

[west verge]

i have no opportunity to see what that damage looks like

it went straight to hard capping at a specific plateau

[trim ruin]

Remove quad scaling = AL100 player (gilga or otherwise) loses 50% SS dps, AL200 loses 66% SS dps, etc.

[west verge]

that might be more than where we are at today

yesterday i was at 90% damage loss

i thought it was bugged

[trim ruin]

I'm not a superfan of the mystery formulae with apparently magical number thresholds. And still confused as to how I lost ~65% and y'all lost 90%.

[west verge]

yes same

i want logical consistency. it is also easier to document

i dont want to explain to new gilga players so uh

after this random value of 200k or 300k ward

[young river]

When I last checked after the last adjustment that I know of I was at about 2.3'ish million on full raid damage SS versus my normal build damage of 7-7.5 mill. So I mean it wasn't as terrible as the 650k version

[west verge]

it doesnt matter any more

i assume it only changed 10 times since I was last here

ill check again as damage formula/cap appears to be server side

[young river]

Yeah frenzy button was why we needed the app update.

[west verge]

i will test swash then oracle

[late oracle]

W/ live numbers and no DC and no frenzy I do 4.8m, prob a little high but my beta test has an addition 50% attack mod and additional 100% stats and costs more to deal 2m less

[west verge]

okay

swash is around 4.5m

oracle around 2.5

that was where it was monday/early tuesday

I can work with that

not whatever the it was when it was sub 1m - edit for the kids

[late oracle]

Can you show builds

[west verge]

one moment

same as what it tested on yesterday

SS3: 1) ~4.5m a hit 2) ~2.5m a hit

[late oracle]

Is this standard gilga?

[trim ruin]

Looks like my benchmark is now around 65-70k, ~50% damage loss. (c.t. 130k on live)
The server isn't publicly versioned so it's hard to label this as something other than "midday of the 21st server version" 😅

I think my last number was 45k ~65% damage loss, when y'all were seeing sub1m/90%loss/etc.

[young river]

You turn 1 cactusing?

[west verge]

ive grown quite tired of the glasscannon straw man argument because many of the people in here are AL 100+. whether you are a tank or glass cannon is nearly irrelevant in normal orna content because we can all put together builds that one shot raids. they pose no threat. Calling gilga a tank and asking for parity is obnoxious because the raid never has a chance to kill you in the first place

[trim ruin]

yes.

[west verge]

anguish 2.0 is a completely different landscape

[real blade]

I definitely still die sometimes to normal raids lol when I use sequencer

[west verge]

summoner has...a suite of other problems 😅 and hopefully receives some love in the future

[hazy comet]

I think that argument usually comes from lower AL players. And its totally valid from that point of view

[west verge]

as ive contextualized before I can only speak at my experience level

lower AL is also a diferent land scape

[hazy comet]

For sure. Its also a more populous one

[late oracle]

You know what I've been raiding on herc and I think it might just be that subclass is way more affected through attack changes. Still feels low overall but herc is doing like 25-30% less damage than standard.

[west verge]

I am...more than i should be uniquely concerned that gilga will have even less players than before

back when I was raiding apollyon for gear I swapped to titan guard because it was tanky

and I was actually able to solo the raid for the first time at t9 *because of this, which was super cool to me

people that want to play gilga have so many entry requirements

and once that all comes online, idk what it looks like At lower AL anymore

and certainly not post these patches

I can only advocate for high AL gilga experience

if gilga becomes the slow and steady way to deal damage and survive raid content, or even boss horde content? i think that would be neat...but orna is about speed at the moment (outside of ang2.0)

[visual crescent]

Just gain more al no way ss3 weaker

[west verge]

lol

anyways idk who I am even speaking to at this point

[visual crescent]

May be your al is too low for ss3 boom

[west verge]

if the experience becomes unfun I am likely to just change my class to something else ive played before

[late oracle]

Yeah I'm only 187 on beta but my live is 195 so should be in a better spot

[west verge]

there is a reason those messages are blocked for me

its generally non-serious and non conducive

[late oracle]

I would try on beta client instead of posting live.

[real blade]

at least use the beta client man

[visual crescent]

I mean with scale u.s will somewhat get a hard block

When ss3 now is boom so high with al with hard to limit

[trim ruin]

The hope should be that:

1. quadratic just goes away. divide damage by player ascension, now it's exactly linear with ascension like every other skill. ||except BP 😡||
2. tune AL0 SS so that it does whatever damage is "appropriate" (read: kills stuff at a rate that people like).
3. ensure warrior is the best SS user (at AL0), and others can use it but with more asterisks and caveats.
4. ensure Gilga has more damaging options than SS if they're willing to drastically hurt their defenses. Or let Frenzy make SS do the damage while seriously hurting their defenses.

I think even new players that are interested in using SS would gravitate to Gilga as long as it's the premier SS user.

[signal heron]

Just block and move on, we can keep the convo productive

[visual crescent]

I don't want to be beta tester but right quad scale is like that

[west verge]

for whatever its worth i am certainly open to other gilga skills or other skills in general

but not as a supplant to SS itself.

equal opportunity for a variety of builds

[visual crescent]

I just don't want every class get one more button function like hera did

Idk if it is their signature but feel annoy to use

[west verge]

but often the direction of this convo from certain voices feels bad to me because the outcome feels like, nerf SS because its what I want and I dont like the skill and neither should you

[trim ruin]

pretty sure that ship has sailed, we're in "everybody has their own special thing" era

[visual crescent]

Ngl till now I don't see hera flask to shine

[late oracle]

Hera is an intentionally bad class they made as a joke so please stop comparing it to real classes

[west verge]

also my kek on your post was about BP

like I said GS has other issues

I dont have the full gamut of beta experience with SS available to me currently. Maybe what changes you sumamrized could still be implemented, maybe it could go out today as is

[trim ruin]

We're due for a solid 2k+ post GS discussion, yeah. I'm not sure I'm brave enough to do that unless I pick up day drinking.

[west verge]

im almost ahead of you

[young river]

Welcome to team lush.

I had to make another gallon

[west verge]

is that just moonshine

[visual crescent]

GS team will laugh hard when seeing gilga

When gilga don't know what their SS go bp is always in there with quad scaling

[west verge]

nice

[real blade]

its a known problem but addressing it is probably not in the scope of this beta

[visual crescent]

Moreover don't like SS, it has insane m1 (sum hp is their m1) so practically insane in 2.0

[west verge]

someone at two orna meetups ago shared theirs made from a still, with some nice staves in the jar

that stuff was

[young river]

Wait, what? Sum of their hp=m1?

[visual crescent]

Part of

[young river]

Honestly right now we don't know what the new M1 is.

[visual crescent]

Just check formula in theory it has highest m1 ingame

[young river]

I think you are thinking of the original SS that died in 2021

[visual crescent]

Type of usefulness in endless someway

[young river]

New SS3 was M1 of 2

[real blade]

exact formula is this (found by yours truly )

BP1: M2=1, M1=0.5+0.05*total_summon_hp*0.0002 OR 0 if total_summon_hp=0
BP2: M2=1, M1=0.5+0.10*total_summon_hp*0.0002 OR 0 if total_summon_hp=0
BP3: M2=1, M1=0.5+0.20*total_summon_hp*0.0002 OR 0 if total_summon_hp=0

[young river]

the newest beta one, we don't know

[visual crescent]

Ward is m2 but yup sum hp is m1

[young river]

In the beta version now?

[real blade]

ah lol he was talking about bp formula but you mean ss formula ig, new ss formula hasnt been found yet afaik

[young river]

Ohh you are talking blood pact, I thought you said SS

yeah Bloodpact kinda works like old SS used to. Except it got capped in pvp

[visual crescent]

Uhm i think u can test in pvp for m1 beta

But if odie try to limit ward for m2 cap i think the m1 is constant like before to adjust

Lower m2 keep old m1 some type like it

[signal heron]

Hey you know what Gilga really needs? A skill that can crit and regenerates ward. Definitely a tool that Gilga needs as a class

That sounds like such a great Gilga skill

[smoky tusk]

Oh yeah

[signal heron]

-# I need a skill that crits and regens ward on Realm Corvus

[smoky tusk]

[signal heron]

-# For Shadowveil

[west verge]

this is the energy this thread needs

the comments with the small text are too small for my eyes so ill ignore them

[hazy comet]

Use mimic with beastfelled boots

Ez money

[signal heron]

This is a Gilga thread S2, I'm recommending a skill for Gilga

[hazy comet]

Have we seen any numbers for shadowveil yet btw?

Wrong thread right

[signal heron]

#1369690605835387040

[trim ruin]

this is a delightful image to use in a lot of discussion threads, now and for years to come

[west verge]

im here for generational information memes

[broken bough]

-suggest Crit Poise on Realmshifter Corvus

oh wait

[young river]

Dangy was just talkign about buffing guarding strikes, maybe if it regenned ward too >.>

[signal heron]

Only Guarding Strike can crit

[young river]

I could probably have some super fun in an Ursa GS 4 raiding build if it could crit and regen ward at the same time. Infinit button spam with max CD damage and chance

Just have to watch health so zerks did not gib me

[half karma]

You'd need massive ward regen from it 👀

[junior imp]

Kind of, but not really. You can build ward regen without the skill providing it.
SS consumes ward, simply not using it already makes you regen a bunch

[young river]

There is something satisfying about multi hit skills, the more hits, the more satisfying.

[half karma]

You can juggle a bit so frenzy wont delete your whole ward with tower of str and DB

Deplete*

[junior imp]

Yeah, I'd like that skill to be a solid option as a top tier skill for Gilga

I don't think adding ward regen to it is right though - would start to put us back in a 'is this best for Gilga, or frankly better on other classes' type train

[signal heron]

or frankly better on other classes' type train

What? I have no idea what you're talking about

[half karma]

Oh maybe walls of aaru are a nice alternative

[gritty plinth]

-suggest reworking spiked shield to regenerate ward instead of consume it, making sure damage is appropriately lower

[junior imp]

Guarding Strikes, and the suggestion above to add ward regen to it

[young river]

with quickcast axe 😄

[half karma]

Ship frenzy

[signal heron]

Sounds like somthing for Gilga, not Realmshifter other classes 😉

[west verge]

make sure its restricted to gilga

[signal heron]

I'm not sure if you missed the original context for that suggestion Dangy

[west verge]

[junior imp]

Kind of, but again not really.

I think the intent of suggesting adding ward regen to it is to counter frenzy depletion - but if it were also buffed (and GS4 was added), then classes that don't have the ward depletion (understand the other recent addition) may find it to be the new strongest skill

Just speaking personally here, I wouldn't want the theoretical world of making GS great being tackled by adding ward regen to it

[signal heron]

Sorry, I was being extremely not serious when I said it wouldn't be useful on other classes, because my entire point of coming in here and suggesting a ward regenerating crit skill was for Realmshifter Corvus to steal from Gilga

Exactly like we steal Horizontal Slash and Ward of Light

That was the start of the conversation 😅

[half karma]

Im gonna steal your shadowed strikes and im gonna enjoy it 😡

Dont thumbs up me mister

[gritty plinth]

Heretics have never stolen anything from anyone ever

[signal heron]

Ultima comes from Heretic at level 245 right?

[junior imp]

I didn't, but I'm also serious that I'd like the skill to be good and want to make sure that we also mix in some serious with the joke. Gotta make sure that it isn't taken too seriously, the suggestion to add ward regen to a skill in the case I provided

[signal heron]

The only joking part of my suggestion was that the skill would only be useful on Gilga, a crit skill that also regenerated some ward is just a very Gilga-flavored skill, so it wouldn't make sense to suggest it as a Realmshifter skill

I do think it could serve a use in Frenzy non-SS builds

[junior imp]

Me: #1370141629444395028 message

Leap from ward regen suggest:
#1370141629444395028 message

Just keeping my thoughts clear for folks so it's not misrepresented :)

[signal heron]

Maybe a 'weak' skill with a power similar to Sortie, that'll do a lot less damage than something like HS3 but balances that by letting Gilgas keep pushing Frenzy forward for longer.

[junior imp]

I'm keen on a world where SS isn't viewed as the only option - would love the diversity!

[young river]

Having a ward regen skill that wasn't tied to an element would be super nice.

[signal heron]

Having it holy elemental helps to balance it imo

But yes non-elemental is more powerful ofc

[late oracle]

Buff rhada stomp

Its a cool move

[signal heron]

As far as I know the other ward-regen attacks are all Holy?

[junior imp]

I'm likely alone here, and speaking for myself not the studio, but I'd rather ward regen come from other sources and not add it into a skill.

We haven't yet seen a world where folks have anguished gear with ward regen, coupled with all other sources, and are using a non-ward consuming skill

I think ward regen will actually be quite high

[young river]

I don't think SS is viewed as the only option now. In fact for early gilgamesh it isn't even really much of an option at all.

[signal heron]

This is 100% not a Gilga concern so I wont drag it on in this thread, but Anguish gear only boosts existing ward regen, it doesn't provide it outright

[half karma]

Thats true. Ward regen will come from chestpieces only right?

[thin tiger]

Be cool if by casting for a turn gilga could get a surplus of ward. Makes a ton of options open up

[onyx tulip]

What about a ward regen temp buff (castable or from gear?) Just spitballing

[junior imp]

Yes, I'm speaking for Gilga flair and not elsewhere

[west verge]

id be a fan of having more aggressive ward exchanging moves as well with different flavors

ward consumption not as an m2 modifier but as a cost to using the skill in exchange for that skills power

which seems more gursa thematic

[onyx tulip]

Similar to Realmshift being an RS only skill

[west verge]

having tried new realmshift i really like it

and it actually being unique to that class

i think orna can retain having shared skills and unique class skills

[half karma]

I still feel a bit off with ursa interacting too much with ward because hes got terrible regen (0)

[gritty plinth]

Flasks, Frenzy, and Shadowwhatever are termed class abilities now I guess

[onyx tulip]

Apex as well

[west verge]

regen has many sources these days. rather than having to use total ward as metric for damage, looking at flat ward consumption as a requirement for using a skill

this is different than SS behavior

[smoky tusk]

Shadowwhatever jajajaj

[gritty plinth]

Not exactly?

[onyx tulip]

I am alright with a % if it's not too punishing, and if there were gear/gems, etc, that could reduce the overall consumption

[gritty plinth]

Basically Odie took the coding/UI for flasks and made it into class abilities for gilga and realmy

Manaless skills

[onyx tulip]

Ah yeah well the manaless part ok

[gritty plinth]

Semantics really

[onyx tulip]

But Apex is Deity Only

[gritty plinth]

I like the idea of the 3 base classes getting these classline things

[silver rampart]

Please no more enemies directly countering us with saboteur

😭🙏🏻

[onyx tulip]

So are we ignoring the other class lines? What are the base? Warrior, Thief, Mage?

[gritty plinth]

Yeah

Those are the 3 starting options

[silver rampart]

Rs is already enough

[onyx tulip]

Well this thread is SS so I won't argue against only giving 3 something more.
I do think that some type of regen ability and gear that reduces the cost of ward for the new Frenzy that is Gilga Only may be a nice option

[wild island]

I think frenzy only drains ward when collateral dmg procs

idk if its intended. also need to figure out interaction w/ bastille, and how come you cant toggle it on & off

[west verge]

i believe its intentionally not a toggle

you must choose for the duration of that fight to frenzy

its also counter against bastille which is unfortunate because it negates the damage bonuses to the extent that bastille decreases

perhaps it could impact hp instead

[wild island]

reminds me of cuchulainn swapping into crazy mode

i think if it cant toggle off, it oughta invert bastille

(so, full stat boost at 0.001% ward)

[cunning canopy]

Spiked pauldrons and greaves?

[west verge]

I do use those, not all the time. Good flavor to enhance CD usage

[cunning canopy]

Pauldrons seems usefull on frenzy mode..

[thin tiger]

Where are these screen shots from?

[onyx topaz]

#patch-notes

[thin tiger]

Thanks!