3.17 Balance patch

[blissful delta]

It only allows high al deity's to safely run ang 50 towers, no biggie

Even low al deity can safely do 30, most other classes need a ton of al to safely do mid 20's

Even 50% all is still too much in my opinion.

[ornate prawn]

Dorado def can do it much lower and so can gs

My first 50 clear was a Dorado

[dusky radish]

Anguish 50 not floor 50. To be clear, low AL Deities aremt doing Ang30 towers lol, but high AL Deities can and Channelalus is the sole reason its quite easy to do so.

[ornate prawn]

Oh, you are saying Anguish towers, yeah, the first one to clear 50 anguish towers was a Dorado and then a GS, and I personally don't know anyone farming 50 anguish towers, do you? I know it may have been cleared by ohters but Dorado and GS were the highest I now of

Chan is the only reason to go D. ursa in tower

[dusky radish]

that wasnt me

[ornate prawn]

Otherwise, Dara Windtamer is better. I just did the swap to that too

I also tried BeoH at 28 al and it kind of sucked for sure

No it was the guy from Vietnam

I forgot his name

[dusky radish]

no im saying I dont wanna argue his point about towers lol

[dusky radish]

who was this?

A Dorado running an Ang50 tower to completion when?

[ornate prawn]

It was over a year ago in Orna Legends

He was farming anguish 30

[dusky radish]

Ye that was prob Thrombo and it wasnt even close to 50

[ornate prawn]

and did a 50f completion I believe

said it was over 2 hours

[dusky radish]

no ANG50 tower. Deity has done an ANG50 F50 Tower in HoA was his whole point

[ornate prawn]

I am hoa 😄 who was that? Minh?

AL 200+

[dusky radish]

and in terms of farming towers Dursa is way better then Dara and a Dursa Ang25-30 run is in your 12-15 min range.

[ornate prawn]

yeah I never see those levels even 1 per floor but that's just me even with keyboard shortcuts

[dusky radish]

AT HIGH AL not low AL and spamming diff skills cuz thats a waste of time

[dusky radish]

see what levels?

[ornate prawn]

levels of time/speed

I am not saying it's impossible I just don't get below 15

on normal let alone anguish 😄

I am also only 44 al

[blissful delta]

Low isn't the right word, but deity can run ang 30 towers at significantly lower als than any other class

[dusky radish]

exactly

[ornate prawn]

I can't argue that as I am not a high level but I am pretty sure GSA and BeoH don't have problem son a 1:1 and Raids other classes way outshine Deity by a ton

[dusky radish]

I did Dursa runs for a decent bit my best run could approach the 13 min mark. I disliked running Ang30 due to more RNG variance hiwever and found greater comfort at 25.

[ornate prawn]

A 60 BeoA outpeforms a 167 Deity

In raids

and not towerfall

[dusky radish]

Man thia conversation is so scattered and disconjointed. I just came to here to clear up a comment is all. If you yhink certain things about Deity dont need nerfed that I said should be and want to like writ eit up ill def respond but my brains too smooth rn

[ornate prawn]

It's all good, I am trying to say that one aspect of the game shouldn't be the determining factor to nerf an entire class, holistically, it doesn't make sense. A lot of people aren't 150+ AL so making changes based on them just doesn't seem like a great place to be doing it.

[blissful delta]

The best towers combined with the best endless makes deity by far the most efficient class in the game for ascension

[ornate prawn]

Someone else said it best: Deity is the fastest, but GS is the deepest

when it comes to endless

But again I think people get really stuck on comparing the 1%

and not looking at the average—anyway, it's Friday night. We don't need to keep arguing because it will just go in circles. Some people want more nerfs. I conceded there is a case for some, and was quickly told it needed to be more and harder nerf. Happy Friday 🙂

[balmy folio]

Well i remember deity is a pvp profession

[blissful delta]

Gs is not efficient, it's slow as fuck. Efficiency and speed/depth are different things

[topaz sphinx]

It is?

[balmy folio]

Counter attack on pvp

[ornate prawn]

That's not Deity

[topaz sphinx]

That’s gilg ursa?

[balmy folio]

Yep

[ornate prawn]

Gilga is not deity

[balmy folio]

Let me check, lmao my bad

[dusky radish]

To these handful of points

• Dursa use Channel essentially everywhere. Will use it in Hordes to great effect, Towers to an absurd effect, Raids to decent effect. It enables something no other class can even attempt to mimic. An instant free 100% stat boost is huge and does effect all gameplay. Channe l isnt AL specific but AL highlight its absurdity more.

• I explained why that statement isnt logical, Dara is broken in endless. Probide any specific example or point and I can explain why its wrong. Dara endless is the largest gap in current Orna and its a major progression aspect of the game.

• My Deity recommendations are a look at all ALs and all aspects. Not simply meta play, I dont think an Ursa HP buff or Ara faster charge are meta defining charcateristics but I think people would enjoy the classes more with them, thats why I included. Those are thought out points and definitely happy to thoroughly debate any in detail and open to being convinced I am wrong.

[balmy folio]

Sorry i playing with different language just found im wrong🤡

Translate always get weird

[ornate prawn]

Yeah, so point 1 - you mean a class identity item like all the other classes have, right?

CD, Avidity, Flasks

Point 2 again 1% problem. At the lower to mid AL levels RS, BeoH and Deity perform about the same so maybe a scaling issue like SS3/CS and ward stuff?

Point 3 I agree

Not bad for me considering 😄

Also, for Point 2, I am speaking from some experience over the years on RS doing endless, Deity and only very recently BeoH which I hated so I swapped but was still able to hit 350 floors on average which isn't bad gains at 28 al

[topaz sphinx]

Also on point 2, Dara did get nerfed to 100 from 120, shouldn’t we see how that plays out?

[ornate prawn]

It's not bad tbf

Like I said I could see it falling down to 80% easy

and I think the idea of a possible fall off isn't bad either

[dusky radish]

1. As you saw with my main post Deity has how many Identities now? Its the Channelalus class, T. buffs class, Apex class, All Equip with actual stats class that can use hybrid, the stat class, the passive class.

Channelalus is not Ursa's identity, Channelalus effects all the classes and Ursa is meant to have an Identity aside from a single buff thats broken. All very different mechanics anyways.

2. They do not perform the same a Dara will largely outperform any equally geared/ascended class and lots of people can speak to it. I do believe this may scale more with ALs as in, its a mediumish gap early on and develops to a chasm by high ALs.

[dusky radish]

My original post addresses this if youd like to give it a read.

[topaz sphinx]

Sure where is it?

[ornate prawn]

The Deity is the real endgame class; it costs more and has some of the latest skills to get in the game. It was a jack of all trades master of none and second to everyone else for years.

[dusky radish]

#1369695388432334878 message can read point 4 and paragraph below it for this topic

[ornate prawn]

Also I agree with Chan going down to All ++

not staying at +++

I even begged it go to + just to keep the 1 turn

2 Turn DC exists for all classes now

[dusky radish]

I think youd agree these are bad arguments to make, it costs like 5m more Orns(for no reason) which is nothing in the grand scheme of the game. And it had viability and cool niches since around the introduction of horde and only started to fall off a bit before its rework just being storng but bland. Ots rework need identity, not power.

I HoC'd pre rework and it was still a very good and usable class it just felt bland and its celestials were downgrades.

[ornate prawn]

I wasn't a fan of Apex, to be honest, I don't see any of the skills for Dursa being used beyond chan

I was a deity when Horde dungeons came out and I stayed there for a long time until I did that 6 month stint as a dorado

[dusky radish]

Apex needs a revamp but thats beyond the scope of a balance patch. NF needs to give the skills more love, a bit of gear/adorns that are actually interesting and maybe reconsider hoe reliant it is on offense for Apex gain and make its passive aspects better.

[ornate prawn]

I think we agree on a lot as usual just the timing and implementation and some of the minor details

[dusky radish]

I dont mention these things as they are largely irrelavent to balance pathes themselves but ik of their existence. Half the reason I suggest a T.2 as I see it still usable while just reducing 1 or 2 very sore spots it creates. Even a T.2 has potential to cause more issues with hordes but thats generally a sacrifice worth making imo for the sake of the classline and balance

[ornate prawn]

I also think we are arguing about a playstyle that is going to be drastically changing with Anguish release vs whats out there right now

But do we go with Anguish 2.0 release and then another balance patch? What about a QoL patch? I know there is a long list of QoL things that people would love to see

Like being able to buy multiple levels of AL when you HoC, Stacking rewards from spending 1M tower shards for 200 DM, giving more than 1K potions finally etc lol

And those are just my annoyances

[topaz sphinx]

Ight back, I disagree with the nerfing the stats part as unstable omnimancy already makes it occasionally glass. 2. That would allow it to stack with deific which could be a problem with barrialius in the mix as well. No comment on 3, it’s a good idea
4. Forgot who said it, but someone mentioned having the buff decay, what are your thoughts on that?

[ornate prawn]

That was me

Having it have a fall off percent and I like that

[topaz sphinx]

Oh cool even better 😅

[ornate prawn]

Odie has said buffs shouldn't have been permanent

so why not start with that 😄

Time to go farm an amity for the hour wish me luck on a good ornate

Got 15% damage at max HP and 4 turns starting ward

[topaz sphinx]

On apex, I’d be happy if the manyalys either was affected by buff extenders or didn’t have the damage reduction, don’t really care which one gets dropped tbh

[dusky radish]

Endless wont see any change and Dursa/Channel will retain these issues inherently. Also remember Ang2 isnt the whole game, its just a guild as Odie has said so even if they only existed outside theyd still be problematic.

[warm oasis]

i really dont understand the ascension range this convo is about

for me, i stopped at <20, and all the classes function pretty similar.

((but i dont have dara, or a nice spike shield))

[topaz sphinx]

Idk all the way either everything is busted with 100 something ascensions, I wouldn’t balance the game around that

[dusky radish]

UO is actually a fair mention, this has the nuances however of being a weakness which is strictly a modifier and doesnt effect pen and is an uncommon situation to be effected by whilst also having counterplay in both Apex line and gear resists. UO can be an occaisonal detriment or annoyance but id argue is uncommon enough that it doesnt at all warrant Deities BST.

2. Im aware this has the pitential to stack and with Staying Power and passive T.s being a primary identity for Deity I think, atleast in terms of identity, this is to its benefit and even if it buffs it in like raids(which it needs) or hordes that its worth it for all the QoL, identity and sore spots it fixes.

3. I am okay with it but the nature of it would have to be quite odd. If it was a falloff like Tyrm seemed to mention then id think it has potential I am not sure if Odie has tjat intention for Daras identity as I think the passive was inteded to be a stable thing but id certainly be open to see what Odie could cook up that adds an extra layer to it. As you could read I dont see how it can exist in a world with Resurgence and we call that balanced.

[warm oasis]

like, "balance" the game means what

make it so we all can lvl up at the same speed?

[topaz sphinx]

Make everything relatively even so any one thing is not blatantly op

[dusky radish]

Ill repeat myself again, none of my arguments rely on high ALs.

[warm oasis]

whats u o

oh got it

seems like youre claiming bst and a gap that becomes a chasm, i definitely think 225 deity is poo unless you have excellent gear or like poo

i think its a scaling problem, but idk what point it becomes a problem

since i stopped ascending (everything at ) 20 AL

[ornate prawn]

So, to the point of Odie saying it's just a guild. I have already been actively arguing against that. It's the endgame period. It integrates with Dungeons, World Farming, Raids, and Towers - what other "just a guilds" do that? What also has infinite possibilities in making things more challenging and increasing our stats outside of Ascension levels?

Deity doesn't even get decent skills until 240 right?

That's the first ultima

[warm oasis]

seal/strike are good

but the skills are another thing

[topaz sphinx]

1. Still on the unstable omnimancy thing, I’d say that once everyone gets ultima/ultimastrikes, you need to specifically put Rhada souls into your armor or just get murdered by it every time. It’s a constant thing that you need to be wary of.

2. Ight if you’re good with that I say send it

3. The only reason that I would say that Dara passive is decent enough right now at 100 to see how it goes in live is because of how long it takes to charge. Realms can be at full charge in like 5 turns (don’t quote me on that) There’s no way that’s happening with Dara.

[ornate prawn]

Fair

[warm oasis]

stats that scale with apex usage sounds nutty in longform content, like endless, some raids, monument, towers

[dusky radish]

Its justa Guild because you cna play without it and the game still is fine. Because it has no effect outside of the guild. Anguished bonuses are for anguish not anything outside of it. Its an opt in system to partske in something else but it doesnt effect the base game one bit if you never turned it on.

[warm oasis]

does that persist between fights?

[ornate prawn]

Name one other system that my gear can get better stats after hitting level 13 (gf) - It's the end game and saying its fine not to do it is seriously desingenious - It's like saying Mythic dungeons were ok being for the 1% in WoW - look how that worked out for them

Before Anguish 2.0 the endgame was mat farming

Now there is a challenge and gear and stuff to work towards

[dusky radish]

1. That is a PvP specific thing and even then yk that Ultima isnt super common in PvP by any stretch. So even for that very niche example thats super unlikely.

2. Yeah I hope it was shown that I dont want to just merf the class I want changes both up and down. You could even look in the old Deity threads and see that I and other were fighting to better give Deity identity as the rework didnt make Ursa and Ara and Base necessarily feel special and differemt and more so just... strong.

3. Daras balance issue is endless and where my arguement lies. A free 100% line in endless is insane and unequivocally beats all competition and thats not a tight margin at all even at lower ALs. Also with the long charge if you remember in my post I said having it maybe at 90 f.e. with a 30% charge per Apex would help that problem. In discussing Deity over all this time I have seen LOTS of people say almost the exact same line of "I want to use Magic as Deity so I want to use Dara but the passive is so slow" so as much as I didnt personally have this feeling zi think itd be nive to address.

[warm oasis]

are you using a voice input?

[dusky radish]

Those stats.... only apply in Amguish. They dont actually buff your gear at all. If you have Ang100 Arisen Terrors when you go into your endless run they are the same as the Ang0 Terrors you started with. Never touched WoW so cant get that reference.

[dusky radish]

no? lol

[warm oasis]

alright, wow. so does dara apex stat boost persist between fights in monuments, and towers?

[ornate prawn]

No

[dusky radish]

no it does in dungeons obv. Apex meter however does persist in monu and towers

[ornate prawn]

Meter persists yeah

[warm oasis]

yea i enjoy dursa towers. finally freed up my beoh from having to be bard all the damn time

[ornate prawn]

What do you see as the point of Anguish, then? I see it as a material farm for gaining ascension and the only real endgame that will be offered. All other things aside, we await whatever time-locked content we may have missed.

[warm oasis]

so maybe make endless a guild and instead of orns and gold, give tokens more often the deeper you go?

[ornate prawn]

I hope not, if I want to hit 200 AL it's over 75B orn

[warm oasis]

its a wonder you even have that as a goal

[dusky radish]

To be a guild. This guild with the intent to spice other guilds/content up by addind challenge, this being almost directly Odies words on the matter. Its an optional system to partake in to add depth and challenge but could eb conpletely ignored and you still have what Orna is today. Ive seen a handful of people say they plan to stay on Ang1 and not even swap over because they just dont care about the system and prefer the more mindless grindfest.

[ornate prawn]

I also hope I am not pinging you at this hour 🙂

[dusky radish]

Nah idc im slowly working into being tired so I can hopefully sleep tonight. Thanks for even considering that ❤️

[warm oasis]

i really enjoy the anguish paths stuff, but, never engaged w anguish 1; the only thing i ever wanted from it is great monster aspects, and they were too expensive

[ornate prawn]

I wonder if a poll wouldn't be warranted to see if people feel it's just a guild or if it's the de facto endgame. I mean, if you have played for 6 years, you have everything else, what will you do? Do you just keep beating your head on the material farm?

[ionic saddle]

And waiting for new content, yes for me

[dusky radish]

Its perspective some people this is a good endgame as is people like you and I want more and thats what this Guild is meant to do, cater to us.

[topaz sphinx]

Sorry got distracted be ping pong.

1. Fair enough, could just be a me thing in PvP then. Also powerful is a mini ultima in that regards.

2. I may be in the minority here but I do like how long Dara takes to charge. If I wanted to go fast I’d get dursa or base. It being the slow and steady approach feels nice in comparison to dursa being a drag racer

Oh erm

[warm oasis]

6y badge holder, no, dont have everything, that isnt an assumption, thats a privilege of RNG and game time

[ornate prawn]

I would be five years old if I hadn't removed my orna toon for reasons

[dusky radish]

I agreed and generally why I personally didnt hold the sentiment but I was heavily outerighed in that opinion and as such figured id vocalize others opinions as they were more passionate for it being faster then I was passionate for it being slower.

[ornate prawn]

My point was a bit of hyperbole and Brye there can answer it best at his level 😄

Do you think you will hit 300 AL before Anguish 2.0 Brye?

[warm oasis]

i like how this anguish guild is gonna give the crazies a sandbox to play in

[ornate prawn]

I am def a crazy

[jaunty basin]

lumeria

[jaunty basin]

but it's so much terrible at raiding that after Hoccing to deity, I hocced back to GS with a Morris event and stayed GS with apo event. and I am 100% willing to always hoc to the meta class (or was, when AL gameloops mattered). now with shackles and Al being basically worthless pursuit after 140-150, I don't know

[kindred cave]

The issue with this beta is mostly, i dont wanna farm for hours just to test. Gimme free proofs or unlock all anguish items, give us unlimited resources to upgrade our gear to anguish, just give us a code with 10000 of all the anguish items and we can test. I grinded an hour and went to dungeon lv 5, im not gonna go test at that rate, especially now that proof gain is severely slowed down since the shackles are removing the fun

Like, if you want me to test features... Unlock those features? Dont hide them behind a progression that is vastly altered in final regardless?

[steep scaffold]

If only they reversed the ss3 crit removal... then these people would really know what op looks like

[kindred cave]

I was there. The reasoning behind was so your builds are more flexible and you don't have to focus on crit.
The reality was that if you sacrifice everything to build on ward instead of power, crit or not, you only have SS available.

I have to say, i mained gilga while SS3 could crit, i would argue that SS3 did not lose power and i would call it an adjustment/slight buff as you now could stop using pinions.

[slim gorge]

We did multiple codes, and the ORN can hit us up for more if needed

Anguish Gear drop rates are increased, costs to level Anguish are decreased - essentially everything you have asked for exists in the beta :)

[kindred cave]

Getting the first proofs is time consuming, with the 1% chance... also, i dont really wanna have to wind myself through the shackled content until i reach a power level aquiring to mine, it will take dozens of hours, and i already dread doing that on live, so ill pass on that^^" A code that just gives you proofs to check your appropriate level would be nice, because we can still test lower levels as needed/wanted
Just having everything available is what i ment, not having to grind just to test, but rather beeing able to test freely

And just to be clear im really happy about the drop rates, it makes stuff much easier - tho 1000 hammers so we can just forge our own gear up to test would be so much more useful (maybe thats already a thing and i didnt see the codes)

[warm oasis]

wow, maybe just let us handle this one

[kindred cave]

People said that betas are usually not played enough and not enough feedback rolls in. I told why that is the case, i dont think that kind of reply will help change that in the future.
If you want people to test a feature, unlock it for them. Dont make it easier to grind, remove their limitations, so they can freely test. Its not hard to do.

[ornate prawn]

All features were unlocked and testable from a sandbox account, then, using a mirror one, one could lean hard in areas they wanted to test, like Sirith hitting Anguish 50 and testing a lot of stuff. The features and the like were on Sandbox, though, and that's how we got some great meme pictures of people with over 54M HP testing out the specializations.

They also regularly gave out coes to help further facilitate stuff like testing armour and weapons etc.

[kindred cave]

I wasnt aware of that at all