3.17 Balance patch

[jaunty basin]

but those nerf most raid builds not only ultima

[timid nest]

i feel like we should ease in ward maluses and go from there

[jaunty basin]

problemis they want us to spend a lot more time to kill a raid when the game is designed to kill hundreds per type, but that's not an ultima nerf it's a nerf to all raiding

[twin rivet]

yes ofc, i took ultima as an exemple

compared to SS

then we know the meta will be SS

[fallow patrol]

The thing is with raids as Is right now, a SS build is still unable to clear a raid (and even getting zeroed out at times)

[jaunty basin]

low Al SS is terribad

for raiding

[visual granite]

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1370141629444395028

Come discuss ss3 over here! Lets get a consolidated discussion

[ornate prawn]

Raids are a whole other can of worms.

[jaunty basin]

well we were talking ultima so raids I guess?

[ornate prawn]

I was talking elemental malus which goes beyond ultima like ara vesta and the like but yeah ultima is hit hard too

[weary oriole]

Regarding this: #1369743229297234000 message

( Also in https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1369722966685782026 )

[ornate prawn]

That could balance out well, but what would the overall tradeoff be? If regular raids can die in 4 turns for a high al player on a 6M ish raid, they can do easily 10 raids a minute - would the luck overflow be enough to give 150 raids worth of items at a high anguish where the raid takes 15 minutes?
How about raid proofs being used to exchange for gear similar to Monument? Add a new tab for anguish with raid gear?

[ebon mulch]

Is this the right place to post this?

[normal pagoda]

The realm gameplay meta is chained shield again in the beta.

It doesn't matter what else I throw together, chained shield wins by a mile again

[weary oriole]

Obviously people don't have infinite scrolls. You can't have a 1:1 translation of time to reward at higher difficulty, because then you're just multiplying the scrolls by the amount of time.

A little more is fine, too much and you're increasing everyone's scroll counts by 15

[normal pagoda]

And this is without having the ward regen bonus on anything that's going to make it miles better again

[ornate prawn]

Maybe anguish raids could also scale in scroll cost. Technically, we do have infinite scrolls given time to farm them. There are folks with well over 10,000 scrolls and thousands of raids on the ground.

[weary oriole]

Do take SS/CS discussion over to https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1370141629444395028

[jaunty basin]

maybe a stupid questions but anguish proofs chance is only from T10 kills right?

[weary oriole]

Infinite regular scrolls, sure. But not infinite pumpkinless scrolls per example

[weary oriole]

In World, Dungeons and Towers, yes.
In Raids, it seems to be any raid

[severe vector]

T10 if you're T10 or T11, mobs or bosses

o right raids too

[ornate prawn]

That's fair John

[jaunty basin]

so in game we are expected to world farm 5k T10 critters to go from anguish 1 to 2?

[ornate prawn]

re super raids

Roughly yes

[jaunty basin]

lol

[ornate prawn]

if you think world farming is going to be worth it with HP scaling

[jaunty basin]

I mean then while path is useless basically unless the costs there are reduced very massively

[weary oriole]

Is it useless though?

Considering that dungeon hordes are inviable in high anguish, is world farming that much slower than a dungeon run?

[ornate prawn]

To be fair, it may be closer to 3,666 kills

99% confidence would be 5,000

[weary oriole]

Also to be fair we don't have final numbers on drop rates and/or upgrade costs

[ornate prawn]

for 110 proofs

Drop rates are based off current as well

Dungeons would be a better use of time with 3 per dungeon on average to start - could be more if you do low-level horde I think

I also realize we are only on Day two of beta or something - time is fluid for me - but we need to have some time to start talking economy and pricing if not now when?

[weary oriole]

Probably on live beta

would be my guess, at least

People aren't going to be grinding things out to test economy in a side server.

They'll do it if their main character can progress from it.

[jaunty basin]

how do j test how much shackles nerf rewards and what exactly they mean with rewards in beta with extra ornate, anguish and proof chance?

how do I test what happens to the anguish passive if I increase anguish level with tools, I wait 10 days in Smith to test?

[weary oriole]

You can look at the actual numbers on the table for those

[jaunty basin]

which table

[weary oriole]

I am currently unable to turn off shackles due to... some bug

but when you do it does also show the reduction

iirc, if the level is too different, it's as much as a 95% reduction in rewards

so ang gear chance would go from 15.8% to 0.7% ish

[weary oriole]

We already know nothing happens to the passive. And Dangy put out a code for 50 godforging tools, which are instant, non-downgrading demonforging tools

...not to mention demonforging tools set your item's level to 10, not 1 - no blacksmith needed

[jaunty basin]

what happens to the passive? it increases if you increase anguish lvl?

blacksmith to godforge the drops I got

master forge sorry

[fallow patrol]

Sorry for the incoming wall of text but this feels like the best place to post this as balance is my main focus here

The more and more I play around with anguish the more concern I feel with the balance, I've been hoping that once my gear was fully anguished that my concerns would be resolved but that hasn't been the case so far...
With access to the god forging tools in trying out different levels of anguish with now maxed gear and see how things feel with the "recommend" ALs (shackles) and gear strength, and honestly I can't see anything past like Ang26-28 being considered reasonable to complete/do as after that point even with a fully defensive build, fully buffed up I just get one shot, not even a chance of survival besides through second chance.
Now is it possible to complete content at these high levels? Yes, but I've only been able to achieve this through fully offensive "one shot and pray" kind of builds, which gets very unfun and frustrating after a while.
I'll start collecting some screenshots and record what I mean for context at different anguish levels but if anyone would like to suggest some levels to test it would be appreciated cause obviously just spam testing 50 doesn't make sense but unsure what we want to consider the standard of things.
(Note: not really talking about rewards, just trying to focus on enemy stats + maluses in comparison to our stats in a best/recommend scenario)

[jaunty basin]

that's automatic sirith, they scale more than we do lol

anguish scales 3% per level, they scale more

there is a soft cap necessarily and automatically

if anguish gear scales 3% then enemy stats should scale at most 3%, and to keep up you would still need to fully have all anguished gear and keep increasing it every single anguish which would be a tremendous ask already

if they scale more lol

[weary oriole]

Hey, can you actually test something real quick?

Are the Anguished Items properly downscaling, or do they turn off at lower anguish?

Last I heard they weren't downscaling, they just turned off - which is/was a bug

If that's still the case it could be clouding the way it feels.

[jaunty basin]

John I still don't understand, an item dropped at anguish 0 won't get a passive ok. an item dropped at anguish X will have a fixed passive? that's what I wanted to test

I mean if I use the tool

[weary oriole]

That's how it currently works, yes

Passive rerolling/adding might be in the works

[fallow patrol]

I'll check it out there now 🫡

[fallow patrol]

Using "tower stats" as the test because it's the only one I can turn off shackles for, but at least for the stats screen it seems to scale down

[weary oriole]

Stat screens are probably correct but sometimes they can be sneaky little bastards

Can you GodTool an item that has health as a main stat?

and use that to gauge in combat if the correct health is applied or not

Sorry to be offloading the testing, but I'm kinda overwhelmed with the whole.. catching up to every thread all at once kind of deal hah

[fallow patrol]

Okay using this for the test (it is the only item equipped)

At Ang0 - 1 - 30 - 50

[weary oriole]

Isn't that one with shackles on though?

Cuz you said you could only turn shackles off for towers

Your mana is consistent in all but the third screenshot so it's.. probably off?

[fallow patrol]

Ahhhh shit you're right was wondering why the numbers looked weird AF LOL

[fallow patrol]

Hmmm true, gonna check it in towers with shackles off to be sure

[fallow patrol]

Ang 0 - 1 - 5 - 10 with shackles off

For reference

[weary oriole]

Okay then yes, they seem to be properly downscaling

Sorry to send you on this sidequest. Just wanted to make really sure that the ~only person that is providing feedback with actual testing is not getting erroneous results due to a bug

I henceforth classify your feedback as valid

[normal pagoda]

rude😭

[weary oriole]

Sorry bwubble, I Don't have object permanence

If your username is not on my discord feed, you do not exist - nor have you ever existed

[normal pagoda]

object
rude 😭

[weary oriole]

Lmfao

[normal pagoda]

sirith - how high can you kinda-sorta clear towers?

[fallow patrol]

Towers are probably the one thing I've tested the least of, as of rn I have it up to ang10, I tried a run earlier and legit got to floor 3 before getting 1 shot by a niddhog crit (shackles on)

Gonna test these 4 I just queued up, gonna use a Ara vest IV DoF build and see how it feels at each level

Well I can say right off the bat that I think the "ward fail chance" malus should be removed, if I got unlucky and this guy was Zerk I would have just lost with zero chance of counter play, resulting in just losing off of pure luck

[normal pagoda]

yuhp, fully agree there

go upvote this -> #1369743447082139738 message

[weary oriole]

That does remind me

@past latch Mind putting that on the pile?

You can put the other ward maluses we discussed earlier as proposed solution/replacements

(with both #1369695388432334878 message and #1369743447082139738 message as relevant links )

Thanks.

[fallow patrol]

Well floor 40-something is where things ended in that run, honestly my own fault for just trying to spam through like normal, but overall with ideal anguish gear and shackles on Ang10 towers seem reasonable (and honestly kinda fun having to watch out for and play around certain zerks), will get up to 20-30 and do another proper test as that's where I feel things will start to get concerning

[ornate prawn]

Hey Sirith, sorry to ask if you haven't already tried it, but have you done Endless yet? Also, does it seem like the mob HP is double scaling in these tower runs?

[past latch]

I don't think one runs anguish endless 😆

[fallow patrol]

Not 100% sure on the exact change but if it did increase it wasn't by a crazy amount, I was still 1 shotting all the normal stuff I 1 shot

But that's only Ang10 so we will see eventually what 20/30 has to say 😅

[normal pagoda]

I've found the difference between 10 and 15 to be really noticeable

not impossible, but rougher for sure

getting to 20 and then I'll actually see how far I can clear

[fallow patrol]

I haven't tried anguish endless as I don't bother to use anguish on live atm either, but may test it eventually

About to do some dungeon testing, looking for some input on what we want to consider the baseline for "being able to clear"? Solo regulars? Solo boss? Reg hordes? or Boss hordes?

[normal pagoda]

I've assumed from the get go that high anguish dungeons would be solo boss clears

targetting loot = solo boss
targetting proofs = whatever horde boss you can clear with chain skills

[ornate prawn]

People are doing Anguish 1.0 at 50 for Boss Horde clears so I would think people would be interested in same at around 20 in 2.0?

[ornate prawn]

Exactly, so it's been 100% untested, coming from a spot with five unthemed dungeons, endless may be the option we have to possibly get the ball rolling on going from Anguish 1 to 2, depending on what live's drop rate is and if scaling in endless isn't too bad. I would test I dont have the best gear for it.

[past latch]

Themed dungeons are great for proofs too fwiw

They contain plenty of T10 mobs

[ornate prawn]

2 Beast, 2 Underworld, 1 Roost, 1 Votg, and 3 BG. BG probably tough. I don't think the UW will have enough to be viable, and the rest is a roll-the-dice kind of situation, but you are right; they will be helpful, so the endless idea may not matter.

[normal pagoda]

not to continue harping on this, but ward fail chance is starting to actively get in the way of my beta testing

queued up five towers and died in three of them immediately because ward failed

if we could get a poll or something and have it nuked from orbit sooner than later that would be swell

or have the chance reduced to 1% max, as opposed to the 7% option currently ruining my day

[floral drift]

Even at 1% you’re bound to always get hit by it in a 50f tower

It really should just go and be replaced with any of the various suggestions posted before

[weary oriole]

Fwiw, anguish endless is straight up not happening when buff fade chance starts being an every day malus

Endless is basically setup the videogame

[jaunty basin]

btw not bring able to fine tune anguish is going to be horrible

like maybe you want to do endless at 1 for xp, u themed at x, votg lower because too many mammons

can't need an item every time you change

also maybe you don't want to do a Morris at the same anguish you can do moondrops...

also you might want to do towers at low anguish and monument at mid

so the "now anguish is separated per content no need to change it often" isn't going to work, we will have to stay low otherwise we are locked out of endless and a Morris and the like

also you might want very different anguish if orn farming unthemed bosses or farming for proof/items

[past latch]

Just open the guild and increase/decrease the level

It's really easy

[jaunty basin]

it says an item is needed

and there is one in guild to buy

[past latch]

An item is needed to switch between the two decisions

Not to move up and down levels

[jaunty basin]

that's not just for the beta?

[past latch]

Right

You can still freely raise and lower anguish

[jaunty basin]

ok so the problem is only raids where you need to stay as low as needed for a Morris basically

because they are rng summons

[past latch]

If you summon AMorri with too high of an anguish it might just take multiple attempts to kill it

Not exactly the end of the world

[jaunty basin]

taking 20x the time

is making it unplayable lol

[past latch]

And getting boosted rewards for being at a higher anguish

[jaunty basin]

you still need hundreds

doing 500 amorris is slow today with 100+ al without anguish

[junior compass]

We should definitely have a way to manipulate the anguish of a summoned raid

[jaunty basin]

doing 500 at anguish with nerfed raiding is unplayable

500 is like 80% chance for ornate legendary with extra luck

depends on how luck works exactly and how high anguish

then multiply to get anguished gear, purportedly the only reason to go through all this pain

so you are planning to do 1k++ a Morris at 150-200m hp

for a 70% chance of AF matcha pillar or legs

at anguish 20 or whatever

[junior compass]

Well at that point you just don't

[jaunty basin]

now if those took 30 sec each

it would be too much already

ok so the "new rewards" it's like they don't exist

it's like demonforged bog

I mean already doing a Morris with AL capped at 50-55

would be terribly slow at 0 anguish

then add the nerf to raiding builds

then add it has a multiple of HP

it's like so horribly unplayable that even if improved it still feels unplayable

[junior compass]

Ang 2.0 system does not seem designed to be "completed" in the sense that you will not feasibly have everything you want

You just won't be farming anguished morri gear

[jaunty basin]

I am talking anguish 20

purportedly we have al to get to 50+

so it's like they disabled Al as well for all intents and purposes, above a number you can trivially achieve with normal gameplay and no significant effort

[jaunty basin]

so I either summon at low anguish or give up on those

with random scrolls I get it

now to the raids with 25m hp starting

like hyppo

it isn't materially different

or lyncus

I mean you can maybe do lyncus 3 anguish higher than a Morris, uhhhhh so nice and interactive

[junior compass]

There won't be a reason to farm morri anguished. You can't refarm it in a reasonable way because every anguish level will add so much difficulty

[jaunty basin]

so what's anguish for if you can't farm it even with perfect build and perfect gear in any reasonable way

[junior compass]

So you're gonna instead want to use demonworking tools? And sink thousands of cort? No, you're gonna use the super rare godmaking tools?

And then have to upgrade it on the next anguosh level

[jaunty basin]

and get no passive

so that content scales 15-20% in stats per anguish lvl

you scale 3% with your gear

you soon hit soft cap and there is no more progress available

[junior compass]

There's just no reason to farm anguished morri gear in these scenarios. You will kinda just have to use cheaper/farmable gear

[jaunty basin]

what's farmable at high anguish

Qatvanga with 4m HP mammons?

[junior compass]

Easier than raids yeah

[jaunty basin]

maybe Hera robe with only 1m hp Gera and 45 debuffs on you

which is then worthless for raiding

because you only raid at anguish 10 or whatever

so basically the question will soon become for everyone why bother

and except for some try harder that will want to see how high he can go (and then stop anyway)

we will farm where it's soft and aoe can still one shot whatever that is, and where raiding is quick whatever that is

because alternatives are unplayable in a game where you need to kill 500+++++ of the same stuff to improve

[junior compass]

The system as it is - I agree in a vague manner with your assessment

Hard to know of course

But the difficulty seems out of line

An easy step would be a boon that increases quality of rewards at higher anguish

[jaunty basin]

enemies should scale

same proportion anguish gear does

that's it

[junior compass]

Not just +luck (which is easily capped and pointless) but +quality too, for easier ornates

Yeah scaling tone down too

[jaunty basin]

anguish gear scales 3%

enemies should scale... 3%

no need for massive scaling with Al capped by shackles

either that or remove shackles

system as designed isn't "things keep being hard"

[river briar]

I would be ok if anguished 40-50 could only be completed by omega grinders

[jaunty basin]

system is things get harder than you can scale with perfect everything

[jaunty basin]

I am al 180 all Gear 195+ and it's unplayable

raiding with 200 Hera roba 200kala (or 198 macha pillar) 196 fss quickcast ultima is unplayable

with shackles already at anguish 9-10

unplayable: takes 5x or more, decent chance of death, for very marginally better drops

and quickcast has been nerfed less than other raiding builds

towerfall nerfed 90%

like -90% damage

[river briar]

That is good feedback. I wasn’t judging you specifically

It was just a statement on the intensity of that high anguish. Sounds like sound feedback if someone as dedicated as you are can not complete the content

[jaunty basin]

you maybe "can"

at great effort, repeated attempt, for no meaningful returns given the effort

[kind dagger]

This is only big issue (minus the whole redlining ward thing) I've found is that you can do it eventually, but there is no big reward at the end or scaling rewards for said work from what I've seen

Why farm that raid for 15-20mins when you can do lower ones much quicker for more reward per say

Challenge is welcomed but it needs to scale back a little bit from what I've seen and the rewards need to be upped a little for time and effort

[ornate prawn]

This is kind of what I have been harping on since private beta, reward not with the time and effort - allegiance was introduced as part of the reward but still don't think its there

I also kind of agree with scaling, however I do think it should be higher for the mobs than for us, just not at the current rate where at 50 we would have 150% increase and the mobs have 3000%

[kind dagger]

Allegiance is great on its own and I love that there's goodies to go for in under used guilds, but for me to complete Ang50 2.0 say arisen Morri. There should be some solid rewards, whether it's a badge doing solo, higher loot across the tables for time and effort, or even like miny arisen Morri follow reskins. Doesn't necessarily need to be loot all the time but I have to want to do it for a reason other than to say I've done it.

[kind dagger]

This is easily adjustable at least and from what I've seen in discussion most want it slightly tuned down

[ornate prawn]

Something like we get a flat 3% per and there is some type of curve so that say 1-10 is 10% 11-20 is 15% 21-30 is 20% and then every 10 levels after that get 10% more per level so at Anguish 10 we would be 30% and mobs would be 100%, 20 250% to our 60% etc...

[kind dagger]

Math

[rotund lagoon]

Anguish 2.0 is an added challenge sure but I think it forgot to address the reason most players play the game

If there is no tangible progression to be had in running content that discourages people from doing it

[rough nebula]

Remember, folks - this is a beta so it should be expected that numbers change until we can get the fit and feel just right.

This is a thread to discuss the balance changes within it (the class changes specifically), so staying on topic would be appreciated

Looking at the difficulty and all variables in the beta as a final product may not the best idea. You can help more by bug finding 🙂

[rough nebula]

Can you provide an example of a 90% reduction in Towerfall damage? I’m not sure I can make any sense of that number

[rough nebula]

And what change to quickcast are you referring to here? I’m not aware of one

[normal pagoda]

Anybody claiming there isn't progression in the system very clearly hasn't touched the beta

I've had more progression on the beta the last two days than I have in the last year playing Orna

[rotund lagoon]

This is a comparison Firzen made in an anguish 0 scenario

[fallow patrol]

There is no chance this is with the same buffs

[normal pagoda]

^

[rotund lagoon]

For the gear or buffs used you would have to ask him personally

[normal pagoda]

This is one of those points where yall are actively damaging your own argument.

Towerfall hasn't been nerfed by anywhere near 90%. The math behind the nerf has been done and is a concrete, objective number.

Hyperbole about that number isn't going to be taken seriously

[rotund lagoon]

Looking closer at the first screenshot he's using snotra, mag2, t.mag3, and t.all3. Unless he was using mushrooms in the 38 million damage capture that's around the maximum amount of damage he could have done (note that pumpkinless is weak to both holy and arcane damage)

[blissful delta]

Is there somewhere I can see the proposed changes to Gilga ursa?

[rough nebula]

I would agree with the above - hyperbole and gloomposting just won’t be conducive to a successful beta. Multi to additive just can’t produce a 90% reduction mathematically.

Let’s try to be more thorough in our comparisons and open bug reports if we truly believe there is such a drastic change in things

[blissful delta]

Or is the removal of auto counter and the other changes not coming out with ang 2.0?

[rough nebula]

Reading up on the Aethric thread - it looks like a bug where follower ascension is not being applied correctly. They may explain the example, and is a great example of a bug we’d be looking for 🙂

[fallow patrol]

I've done a lot a shit ton of math regarding the new dmg calcs, if we use a build that fully relies on stacking bonus element dmg as a baseline seen here it receives ~63% Bonus Dmg decrease from gear/amities. Now this is specifically for this Double Epee + Bulwark + Double 30 Drag and Arcane amity build. This percentage decreases depending on the build, as for example it changes to ~60% decrease if you remove bulwark
(Which towerfall very much deserves as no skill should be gaining ~3000% more DMG from mostly from just 2 weapons and Amities)

[rough nebula]

And to really highlight: that’s a 63% bonus damage decrease, not a 63% overall damage decrease

[rotund lagoon]

Thanks for clearing that up. I was confused as to what the math was for towerfall but this is understandable. I should mention that my original intention with posting the damage values was to give the requested example of a (approximate in this case) 90% increase in towerfall damage and if I'm honest with you the damage still looks fine to me considering he was able to achieve that while ALSO keeping the raid in stasis

[fallow patrol]

Honestly when this new damage format was first brought up ages ago in the Heretic rework beta I was very worried at first thinking it was way too much, but after mathing everything out and really testing things it's not nearly as bad as it looks, it's just that builds are gonna need to be tweaked and changed up

[rotund lagoon]

I try to remain impartial in these discussions because I don't have a lot to add apart from my little personal experience or these little nuggets of info

[rotund lagoon]

I tried out a few ang 0 raids and there's no crazy changes in the raiding style for heretics at least. I only see issues arriving when anguish raiding is introduced but when aren't issues introduced when talking about anguish lol

[fallow patrol]

True hahaha

But yeah I have a lot of concern on the current enemy stat bonuses/maluses when it comes to raiding as it very quickly gets to a point that even with perfect fully anguished gear + AL Shackles it's basically impossible/would take hundreds of attempts to compete.
But afaik ORN members have also been vocalizing this in the ORN chat so hopefully we're in for some tweaks to it in the coming weeks

[jaunty basin]

ultima with quickcast relies on fewer damage multipliers so it has been nerfed less

user firzen provided the -90% towerfall screenshots but it might be because pet ascension scaling seems bugged in beta

[kind dagger]

So with party play making a comeback would it be possible to say balance to make Manyalus for Deity usable on our party? For a kind of buffer/healer when apex allows?

[rough nebula]

While the change will affect ultima, using the term quickcast here spreads a little confusion. It may be better for the beta to remain succinct

[versed sundial]

Yesterday I had an interesting discussion in OL/Beowulf channel where I didn't understand what was happening in my tests with beowulf/spiritgarm, going from 9M damage to basically 10/20% of that when switching to anguish 2 raiding. I was told it's because of the 'penetration' being different

I used omnistrike 3 and suddently with res temp 1 down I did more damage indeed

but it's just anguish 2, I wonder what spellboi damage will be like in anguish 20

Because I'm noob in m1/m2, maths and stuff... is having more pets stats going to counter that thing or it's just bound to happen because of the spells themselves?

[severe vector]

What AL were you?

There was buzz around AL scaling being bugged with pets, which may be compounded by the higher stats / lower penetration like you mention

[safe heart]

||The Ornalluminati||

[versed sundial]

only 40 in beta (I am deity main in live but I was beowulf before... but the seeding is weird in beta so when you HoC it does not reflect the ALs I had before)

[rough nebula]

This would just be the follower ascension bug mentioned above. Pen would likely not come into effect this drastically

[versed sundial]

Ok thank you.. that sounds actually 'good' that it's a bug somehow 😄 (good for me, annoying to fix for you ahah)

[viral tangle]

So where is the data that crits need a 50% nerf? I saw a chart where Gilgamesh was the top class posted by Odie.

I think this crit nerf is not needed at all. There is such a penalty for getting your crit high enough to get 100% crit. Does anyone else feel the same?

[amber bone]

What chart is that?

Those ones from a ways back with the blue horizontal bars?

[timid nest]

odie posted new ones this week. To everyone's surprise the tank class dies the least

[amber bone]

Ooo i missed those! Any direction to find em?

[timid nest]

.

[amber bone]

Were they also a completed content (yes/no)?

[amber bone]

But were the charts just representative of whether content was completed or not?

Cause just not dieing doesn't make you the best imo haha

[viral tangle]

4 of the top used dung classes don't even use crit.... Why are we nerfing crit...

[rough nebula]

The crit multi change? It’s been warranted and coming for like 2 years, no?

I’m not sure what relevance the chart has here

[kind dagger]

I'd say in current 1.0. 2.0 changes dramatically. Especially when SS/CS goes untouched minus miss chance. Poor heretics just got a beautiful rework and now their new horde spells get pummeled to the ground lol

Among all their other damage sources

[viral tangle]

Why are we not looking at the strongest classes in multiple content? We're nerfing middle of the road classes even harder. No one even uses crit for anguish right now so why is it getting touched for ang 2.0

[rotund lagoon]

I'm not going to lie ara vestaga really did need some kind of tweak. In the current live you can hit ~300k damage to every single opponent while not giving them a turn to fight back. In anguish 2.0 that number will be much lower of course but it's a relatively powerful spell still for the content most people use it for, being towers

I'm all for high damage on heretic to counterbalance its defensive drawbacks but vestaga was a little overtuned

[kind dagger]

Agreed that the numbers going lower is one thing but CS it's counterpart is going essentially untouched. Anything that uses crit vs quad scaling skills is severely getting hit when it comes to higher anguish in 2.0

I'm not saying it's a bad thing but other stuff needs to either be reeled in with it or they need to loosen crit back up a bit

[severe vector]

#1370141629444395028 They are discussing spiked shields and it's comparison to the other classes / maluses / meta

[severe vector]

they is looking at it

[junior compass]

Vestaga has already been nerfed

[rotund lagoon]

Oh for sure I think both should be touched up. This is still the beta so I'm sure additional nerfs are coming to the spiked shield skills

[junior compass]

I've played orna for less than 1 year. Why is it warranted

[kind dagger]

Agreed. I think many people are losing their minds over something thats been in public beta for 3 days. Like let's all chill for a minute and work it out lol

[junior compass]

Someone educate me

Is verse 4 the problem?

Rend?

[viral tangle]

That's why we're talking about it. If crit gets reduced for 50%. SS needs to get reduced by 75% or more to actually be fair so the tankiest classes doesn't hit more than glass cannons classes.

[kind dagger]

Are talking about the crit multi change or the maluses? Because the multi change isn't awful to start and if SS gets reeled in its fine

[viral tangle]

Multiple going to additive which reduced crit damage almost 50%

[kind dagger]

My beta vs live isn't that big tbh at AL100. With max buffs you're over cap anyway

[junior compass]

Why is a crit mult nerf "warranted" for 2 years

[viral tangle]

It's not all about raiding maxed buffed

[viral tangle]

Esp when the data doesn't support it.

[kind dagger]

Should be since the game is about playing not speed run one buff and swipe everything. That's the whole point of the nerfs and 2.0 is to actually make the game difficult.

Not disagreeing though that other non-crit stuff needs to be equal

Gosh forbid people buff for an extra 2-5 seconds in an RPG lol.

[jaunty basin]

i think he meant "crit + elemental multipliers scaling too much"

[rough nebula]

Crit multi is class agnostic and I’m not sure there is an understanding of what the chart shows and the context in which it was shared

It doesn’t really suggest that crit damage inflation should stay (or go)

[kind dagger]

I think it refers to Gilga surviving with SS and there no damage falloff to compensate. Can just be a tanka and do more damage than everything else. Where crit gets whacked on classes that are generally less tbak so it's kinda double hit

[rough nebula]

Prom hands have been 100% regarded as OP for the community for a long time - there should be a ton of conversation to reference about it

[junior compass]

Prom hands, not crit

[jaunty basin]

prom hands are a tad too strong because of the 40% crit they provide, not because of the x1.6 dam multiplier

[rough nebula]

Prom hands are busted because crit is multiplicative

[jaunty basin]

but anyway most endgamers play quickcast over prom hands

[junior compass]

No, prom hands will still be the only augment used by crit builds

Even after the nerf

[rough nebula]

Prom hands are definitely used more than quickcast

[junior compass]

I guess you might throw on something else like selene hands

It's the only viable thing for crit builds

Without it you do no damage

Relative to other classes

It's an exaggeration, sure..

[rough nebula]

If you fine folk would like the change to just target Prom hands values instead of the core issue, please open a new thread to rally support for that change

Please don’t use those charts in the conversation 🙂

they just don’t tell a crit story

[junior compass]

I don't really know what the core issue is. Does crit outperform in content?

[rough nebula]

Crit bonuses being multiplicative mean you can inflate damage with generally ease vs other builds. There is generally a lower effort to reward ratio, which puts it on the overpowered camp

[fiery maple]

I think the best argument for the "multiplicative bonus stacking -> additive bonus stacking" is that it outperforms in all content. It's one of the core reasons player power has 10x'd in the last few years.

[jaunty basin]

i suppose crit is the main raiding strategy? so odie wants raid to be far harder and nerfs crit because of that?

[rough nebula]

I think most of the community would agree that raids have become a cakewalk, for sure

[junior compass]

I guess I don't understand how this is true for crit when selene hands and spiked shield are still around

[ornate prawn]

Raids are a cakewalk, sure, but we also have to do hundreds to thousands of them. There is no trade-off for making them harder and longer

[junior compass]

Is that not inflating damage with more ease?

[viral tangle]

Crit is so strong in raiding that Gilgamesh is the top raiding class.

[jaunty basin]

because SS is still quadratic with AL lol

and crit isn't quadratic

remove quadratic as per patch

and you'll see

SS is better than ultima for all classes at some point (pre-quadratic patch)

even fore heretic

it's just a matter of AL right now

[viral tangle]

I'm okay with that cut the highest candle first why are we trimming middle candles...

[jaunty basin]

but the quadratic removal is in the patch isn't it?

[severe vector]

similar to the candle analogy used previously, we're shortening a few candles that have gotten tall, but we still the lantern over there for SS/CS

[jaunty basin]

that's there already ' 50% ward after al 50, 25% after al 100, and shackles in anguish 2.0

[thin yoke]

#1369695388432334878 message
For the charts, I'm not sure of the interpretation, is it arbitrary units for the quantity of use?

[jaunty basin]

i mean how is SS raiding at al 10?

[junior compass]

Is towerfall the highest, or spiked shield

[fiery maple]

Ward AL changes weren't kept, iirc.

[jaunty basin]

oh my bad then

[fiery maple]

And just for completeness -- BP is also still unfortunately quadratic.

[amber bone]

Afaik those have just represented survivability

Someone correct me if I'm wrong

[ornate prawn]

The bottom shows ability to complete vs. starting something, but I think it's a bit skewed because, for instance, GS is often the starter class now, so they go into things with a lot less gear and will fail more.

[thin yoke]

Survivability -> % of raid (or other) without dying
-> A calculation based on ward/def/res/HP
-> other

[amber bone]

Afaik it's the 1st point

[rough nebula]

This is a really great example of why we just can’t share those charts with the community

[cold grove]

Is there a reason why BP was capped in pvp and SS wasn’t?

Just curious, and sorry for the off-topic

[fiery maple]

BP M1 was unbounded. SS M1 is fixed and low(ish).

[ornate prawn]

Context definitely matters, and I think sharing helps, people definetly reading a lot into it, myself included

[cold grove]

True, that makes sense, thanks for clearing it up 🫡

[ornate prawn]

I actually still use a BP build for PVP - if I had the gear to do SS I would switch over but I don't

[rough nebula]

No, this is not in there

You can read the patch notes at #game-announcements message

[junior compass]

0al heretic main playing this class, idk what this shows

[rough nebula]

Perhaps it shows that https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1370141629444395028 is a thread you should be in 🙂

[sour plover]

Nerfing crit doesn’t fix the real issue—it just takes away the only tool lower AL players have to even try killing these whales. Spiked shield is the real problem at high ALs, and if that’s not addressed, balance just gets worse.

All this does is discourage newer or mid-level players from engaging in PvP at all. When they know they can’t touch high AL players and their only counterplay is gone, the mode just feels pointless. As a mid-level player myself, it’s honestly tiring constantly running into setups I have no real way of beating.

I agree there should be benefit to having high ALs but becoming essentially untouchable isn't enjoyable for anyone else

[junior compass]

Idk I guess I haven't heard about crit being an issue in my entire Orna playtime

Probably because everyone is just focused on ss/selene hands

And towerfall

[viral tangle]

I disagree. Every other game shares stats not just goes off community opinions in discord. If stats were shared more it would show outliers and make your job way easier. You could say "just look at the stats that's why we're changing it" not "the communitys opinion" or "hasn't a nerf been needed for 1 or 2 years" but that's just how I feel.

[sour plover]

Yeah I have barely heard it. Not sure why it's being addressed before SS

[amber bone]

Imagine assuming odie is only using discord community for balance... lmao

[junior compass]

I will say I've seen other games share data with full context without issue. If there is confidence in what the data shows, I think it is beneficial to share it with context

[ornate prawn]

Crit builds, aka Towerfall require a Prometheus Pet and standard equipment to compete with many builds. It really was too overpowered of a build

[bronze isle]

Sharing data , players will do math for NF

[eternal jackal]

While I think its okay if we see a damage decrease across the board, in the context of anguish I don't think crit needs a nerf because the maluses seem to disproportionately affect it, at least in the current iteration.

A lot of the builds rely on elemental stacking too so you're double dipping on maluses with current nerfs

[rough nebula]

Okay, i'm really confused. this message seems to indicate that we're only using "the communitys opinion", yet you know we have data driving the descisions? which is it?

[rough nebula]

it was 100% with context, fwiw

[junior compass]

Yeah and if people confuse themselves that's on them

[topaz drum]

Prom hands already recieved a nerf once. Why aren't selene hands being nerfed at all?

[ornate prawn]

I love and thank Odie for sharing data with us. However, I don't like to see others weaponize the data. That's not just an issue with this game; it happens all over the place. Hollistically I can now see that there defintely are certain classes outperforming others and it not just be a gut feeling.

[fallow patrol]

The problem is if crit and element changes where reverted and we kept everything stacking by multiplying damage would be even worse with the crit/elemental maluses from Ang2.0
For example here is 5 proms hands + double 40% crit amity receiving a -40% malus:

• Old Calcs - (1.1^5)(1.4)(1.4) = ~3.156, then adding 40% maluse, (3.156)(0.6) = 1.894
• New Calcs 1+((0.1×5)+0.4+0.4) = 2.3 , then adding 40% maluse, (2.3) - (0.4) = 1.9
  And this gap grows larger the more we stack on. Basically the current/old way to calc crit/elemental bonus damage is too drastic and too difficult to blend with new content as being multiplied causes even the slightest change to be drastic

[topaz drum]

Seriously though. Why aren't selene hands being touched? Prom hands were nerfed almost immediately. Selene hands have been running rampant the entire time. Going for prom hands AGAIN and not selene is odd.

[rough nebula]

i'm not sure the studio has ever made confirmation that anything was off the table

[ornate prawn]

I was pretty sure there has been talk about all Celestial adorns getting a comb through soon

[topaz drum]

There has been community outcry about selene hands for a long time

[rough nebula]

and there has been outcry for Prom hands too

[eternal jackal]

That makes a lot of sense. Okay then I think this change is okay in context of anguish.

I'm presuming your math is right

[ornate prawn]

Sirith's math has been checked by quite a few

[junior compass]

Again, I haven't seen outcry for prom hands, but I haven't been around thst long

[topaz drum]

Celestial adorn adjustments have been brought up multiple times and then pushed back. It may happen sooner rather than later now, but I see more outcry on selene hands then prom these days. Most ppl I see use quickcast, but odie has the data so he'd know

[topaz drum]

Drop selene hands to 10% in the beta 🤷‍♂️

See what it does for the ss meta so we have more than s2's examples

Not discrediting his examples by any means, just so there's more data points

[ornate prawn]

In my not-so-humble opinion, we shouldn't be balancing anything in light of Anguish 2.0. One of two things should be happening: 1. A full balance patch for all the things, and then a period of data collecting, and then build Anguish 2.0 off that, or 2. Anguish 2.0 release, collect data, and then later do a balance path.

So many moving parts

[topaz drum]

2 is basically what's happening. Impossible not to try to do some balance in ang 2.0 realistically

[fiery maple]

A lot of it is that people stopped hoping for cele augment changes after a year+.

Originally celestial weapons were supposed to compete with other T10 weapons >_>
But it's been so long that people are just used to the new normal of capping raids in three turns and waltzing through ang50 pve.

A while back, celeaug rework was being strongly considered and there was a poll run asking people to grade each augment.
The big four standouts are pictured here (the last time I gathered data from the thread on Sep 29th personally, I don't have NF numbers):

[ornate prawn]

No right now we have both going on - Full balance patch of stuff and Anguish 2.0

[junior compass]

This is not a full balance patch

[ornate prawn]

Not a complete one sure, but there is a lot of balance changes in it

That's why this thread is named 3.17 balance patch

[radiant wyvern]

the columns have really funny names

[junior compass]

Correct me if I'm wrong - They have been adding a few balance changes in each beta to test but haven't implemented much yet

[fiery maple]

they were the emotes people were using to vote 😅
my grading was:

• 😢 worth -2
• ❌worth -1
• ✅ worth +1
• 💯 worth +2
• 🚨 worth +4
• 😎 worth 0 (ignored for power grading)

[radiant wyvern]

ah, now makes more sence, thanks 🙂

[ornate prawn]

That's pretty awesome

[glossy badger]

I am surprised NF only address prom hand and crit for this patch. I know this balance is more geared towards anguish content, but still it feels rather incomplete should I say?

For one, SS is very much used in current anguish content and has the same 'too much multiplier effect' as crit, yet it seems strange that the dmg formula for SS ain't changed.

[topaz drum]

#1370141629444395028 message

The ward calc would need to change per odie

[fiery maple]

Anyway... as in pertains to anguish, I totally agree that the current balance changes of "additive scaling bonus multipliers" and the current set of maluses don't penalize SS as much as crit or elemental. The additive scaling isn't a referendum on prom hands alone, nor is it imo even a large enough nerf for prom hands if celestial weapons were to be returned to direct competition with T10 weaponry instead of being a huge gap above them.

For what it's worth, I think the current ang2.0 balance also don't affect summon pve damage that negatively, but summon pve damage is not great as-is. I'm pretty confident that summoner will be the first class to "cap out" in ang2.0 and be unable to progress anguish, mostly due to a lack of scaling overall.

[polar zealot]

That’s the problem I have with all this. The ss counters are being taken away, and nothing is being done to it. Counter attack gone. Now crit? That’s just getting ridiculous

[fiery maple]

Also this thread keeps wanting to talk about pvp. 😅 Please observe the pin from Odie:

I’ll only be entertaining balance changes that we’ll want to see aligned with Anguish 2.0

PvP motivated stuff can wait

[ornate prawn]

Yeah PVP is already anguishing enough 😄

[fiery maple]

I know I personally would prefer if ang2.0 pve gets nailed down and then pvp gets pvp-specific changes/bof house rules/etc. afterward.

[jaunty basin]

apparently additive scaling bonus multiplier isn't a nerf taking into account maluses at higher anguish. It is a nerf for early t10, no anguish and so on though

i can't test summons in beta they appear to be broken/bugged in hoa beta same as pets

[topaz drum]

Ang 2.0 is going to have major implications in PvP though. How long is the wait after that? (I try my best to avoid pvp discussions but after seeing new specs, crit nerfs etc, it's hard to ignore)

[ornate prawn]

Well, it's balanced in the fact that -40% malus isn't multiplicative, but there is is no real downside to SS compared to 2H and Elemental malus for Anguish

[fallow patrol]

Anguished gear does not affect pvp

[jaunty basin]

why do you think ang 2 has implication in pvp?

[topaz drum]

It's not even the anguished gear

I know it doesn't

[junior compass]

Ang 2.0/guild tree rewards for one

But also these balance changes affect pvp

[topaz drum]

You want to see me go 12k dex?

Because I can 😂

[junior compass]

And if we are balancing classes for ang 2.0 pve, we can't ignore the effects on pvp

[fallow patrol]

The "anguished one" spec has already been brought to light as being a little too much afaik

[river briar]

I also think it is worth noting. That any multiplicative scaling is an issue in orna. And has been.

[topaz drum]

If anguished one is too much then Rangers eagle eye is too much imo

[rotund lagoon]

What was the bonus, 30% reduced miss rate?

If you cut that in half that's still insanely good

[fallow patrol]

30% "accuracy" so not exactly a 30% miss rate but similar

[river briar]

I would also like to say that, if you think a build type (crit) will under perform after the buff. Great, make a case. Imo multiplicative scaling like (SS which has its own thread) is also bad for game health.

[ornate prawn]

Isn't 30% accuracy taking lets say 40% miss chance and just reducing it by 12% to be 28% but 30% reduced miss rate would make it 10%

[fallow patrol]

That's possibly a fair judgement (Haven't tested it myself much so can't really comment on it yet). But this spec was originally 50% so it is open to change I'm sure!

[fiery maple]

y'all, please -> https://discordapp.com/channels/448527960056791051/1370414879395020831

[topaz drum]

So Nolan staff has 40% accuracy. Let me pair that with ranger spec and or diablous gear/Rift rogue. Im not going to miss with top m1 spells lol

[versed sundial]

Is it the place to ask a bit of love for GS H or not? or asking for a review on the protection chance in PVP and being a bit more than just 99% chance to be one shot ss3 on defense with GS first turn? or it's not here or the momet... 😄

[rough nebula]

Still needs to be limited to Anguished content only. that'll be happening

[rotund lagoon]

I think that's what he was getting at yeah

[topaz drum]

Do we limit ranger passive too then? Dex won't be useful still

But Ill head over to the pvp tab

[junior compass]

The spec is limited? Cool

[river briar]

That sounds like it would solve my concerns. Would tempt me to try something other than oracle

[rough nebula]

yeah, per the spec description: "The Anguished Ones have additional HP, Mana, and Dex to assist in their trials."

[junior compass]

Flavor text matters!

[rotund lagoon]

That's new...

[rough nebula]

To help me with prioritization and to understand majority sentiment: #1370416842065313852 message

[fiery maple]

Hybrid damage "is" selene hands...? Unless we're just asking if BeoH is overtuned in a vacuum

[rough nebula]

think of interactions, stacking

[fallow patrol]

My biggest concerns right now regarding balance is the anguish difficulty of enemy stats scaling when combined with the maluses, when everything is stacked on top of each other the enemies become massive and our damage output and options are so limited. I've been doing some tests with different anguish levels and it feels like even with fully maxed anguish gear we start reaching the line of nearly impossible a little too quickly (especially with raids).
Though this has been voiced extensively so I'm going to go assume changes are already in the works?

[polar zealot]

That poll is gonna be a landslide

[eternal jackal]

Hybrid damage stat on amities and 'the hybrid' are both also too good imo

[rough nebula]

you can definitely expect tweaks in Anguish so that our progression is smoother. i'm not fond of the whole curve atm either

it's clear that balance stuff is taking attention from Anguish - so thanks for your work so far 🙂

[polar zealot]

I really hope the nerf is really strong. I really think that this is on BP level. Just blow it up and remake it. Most proposed things are just not enough. And everything else seems trivial to me by comparison

[fiery maple]

The 1.15x M1 boost pales in comparison to 1.3x elemental or 1.4x crit boosts in the same amity slot.
It's not nothing, but I'd be surprised if hybrid damage is an overall balance offender.

[polar zealot]

Yeah. I don’t think hybrid damage is terrible.

[rough nebula]

I've seen it mentioned enough to be worth the poll, but the results should help understand sentiment

Towerfall not trending already is a little concerning though

[visual granite]

Towerfall is pretty raid specific

Which isnt really too much of an issue to begin with

[pastel sequoia]

I think people (me included) in general has trauma about the 1st 2

[polar zealot]

I think the thing with tower fall is that it’s OP in specific scenarios. SS just took over the game

[fiery maple]

SS is the champion in pvp, towers, raids, and anguished dungeons in the endgame.
I've mentioned before but I'm using CS as a grand summoner auriga benefactor to clear towers, because it's faster and safer than anything else.

The good news is that it still hasn't taken over fishing, though maybe we're just lacking data on it.

[rough nebula]

raids are a major progression source - if your competitive is nuking raids that much faster than you, that's a concern, no?

Towerfall is just as objectively off as Spiked Shield's scaling, imo

[ornate prawn]

I don't see see how though? Towerfall isn't used in all those items

[polar zealot]

It could be. But then again, it’s a 1 class thing. On a 1 content thing. Raids do help, but SS helps to gain ALs which in turn make it nastier

[ornate prawn]

My biggest problem with towerfall is ease of gear acquisition you can run it with standard gear and little downside, but that's raids

[fiery maple]

If the poll was only about raids then I'd expect SS, Ultima, and ASG/Towerfall to be the big topics.
Maybe even a highly ascended summoner like myself groaning about BP quadratic scaling 😅

[ornate prawn]

I think BP would be an issue but again the shackles does slow it down

We saw pets with 1.5m hp or so

[visual granite]

In terms of priorities i think people would just much rather see the major elephant in the room get changed first. Towerfall can come later

[polar zealot]

It deserves a nerf. But nothing should be coming out until SS is nerfed. It’s just gonna get worse the longer it goes unchecked. ALs are at over 300 by now

[weary oriole]

Why would you expect towerfall to trend?
It's already been addressed, with the multipliers being additive

[visual granite]

Exactly

[rough nebula]

this poll is asking what should be addressed

[weary oriole]

Instead of what is currently addressed already?

[radiant wyvern]

now is a big changing time, all would be the best

[weary oriole]

Confuses me a little

[river briar]

It is hard to get the gear for tower fall, and offers very little safety. players that really want to maximize their class and use the meme towerfall strategy just have the gear laying around cause they have played the game enough to grab the gear for it

[weary oriole]

I thought it was in addition

[rough nebula]

yes. we can't address everything at once, so let's prioritize

[polar zealot]

To me, even the crit nerf should be walked back if nothing happens with ss3. Everything that is touched that is NOT SS, will only strengthen it.

[weary oriole]

I'd personally say it's already done and doesn't need any more addressing, but if that's what you meant by the poll, I'll go back and change the vote

[polar zealot]

If any options are taken off (tower fall), it just means more people will just go to ss

[rough nebula]

existing Deity stuff and Prom hands are also in there - half the options are things currently existing

then we've got some newer additions to weigh them against

[polar zealot]

And it’s not just ss. It’s also Selene hands. Quadratic. It’s insane. The penetration from Selene hands is absurd

[weary oriole]

I had interpreted it as "things we should further double down on"

I do see what you meant now - but it's definitely a little confusing on intent - at least for me

[topaz drum]

Is selene hands and hybrid damage a bit redundant? I had selected both, but hybrid damage likely won't be as insane if selene hands are nerfed so I removed the hybrid damage vote for now

[fallow patrol]

I gotta say I agree with John here that the damage calc changes that are already in effect should stay. As shown by the math I did above with these new anguish 2.0 maluses damage being additive it's necessary to ensure there is some sort of counter play to it

[topaz drum]

Nvm, I see the post above

[ornate prawn]

I voted thinking the changes currently in are set

[viral tangle]

Im just not sure why we are changing the whole game over ANG 2.0. Like is this a new game after ANG 2.0 for everyone including PVP? Ang 1.0 isnt everything right now. Balance and ANG 2.0 should be two different things honestly. It should be bigger than ANG 2.0 if it changes everything.

[fallow patrol]

^^

[ornate prawn]

Ok changed my vote

[fallow patrol]

Yes but these calc changes have been in the works since the heretic rework, they address a lot of the problems revolving around crazy scaling of Ultima/Ultimastrikes/Towerfall/etc, and generally make the game much healthier in the long run. Should SS/CS be addressed? Imo Yes. But I feel for the future of the game to stay in a good state and to keep new content balanced/in check this change should stay

[warped terrace]

Hybrid, by itself, is fine imo. Selene Hands probably need a nerf, but even those are probably not nearly as big a problem without being stackable with other scaling like SS.

[rough nebula]

Balance changes alongside major updates is pretty normal, especially when those balance changes trivialize what’s included in the update

Why release Anguish 2.0 in a state where it can be steamrolled?

[viral tangle]

Then why was SS damage not included.

Why should a game be balanced around 1 guild when you should be balancing that guild around the game in my opinion.

[rough nebula]

At the time that the H2 balance patch was proposed, the major sentiment was that SS/CS domination was due to fixed miss chance, not entirely damage. The balance changes here are from the patch, which was delayed until the Anguish release.

You can reference the beta threads from that beta for more info. I’m not sure I’ll have time today to be a broken record on this stuff

[river briar]

I love this intent. I want this pinned and praised by the community

[junior compass]

I don't know why people would say fixed miss chance on CS was the real issue. Maybe ang1.0

Certainly with crit mult and elemental mults being nerfed, and in the context of all the 2.0 maluses not touching chained shield, it sticks out waaaaaaaay more

[rough nebula]

Yes, this was pre-Ang 2.0

I was just answering the person’s “why” question

[polar zealot]

I think it’s more about the delay to have it fixed back then. H2 was a while ago. Since then, people have been pushing to gain ALs because they see that it’s a tough thing to nerf, imo. Since then, ALs have gone wild, with ss helping a lot to get there. So a couple months later, the issue is not only miss chance. That’s why I see the delay being problematic. It’s been a couple months and the problem just gets worse. There haven’t been any buffs to ss or Selene hands at all, and they still took over.

[rough nebula]

yeah, that's fine. i can adjust things to the meta

just no more chart stuff please, lol

[junior compass]

Where's the heretic vs deity chart

[rough nebula]

why are we adjusting spiked shield at all, geeze

[junior compass]

Spiked shield is the Y axis

[bold wigeon]

Yeah, I think this goes to show that you should rework heretic again, and this time turn it into a magic spiked shield class.

[normal pagoda]

Im strongly in favor of keeping on the nerfs we already have

And also nerfing spiked shield.

Not to harp on you Odie, but maybe the biggest problem Orna has is a refusal to nerf stuff. If the nerfs are already coded, tested, and generally approved by the community, just do it

Dont wait. Every time you wait it just makes the problem worse later

[rough nebula]

the problem is system shock - doing too much at once results in a whole bucket of players unable to adapt to the change. is equally unhealthy for the game's longevity

[normal pagoda]

Is one big shock really worse than little shocks every month?

Or as history shows, no shocks at all? 😅

[fiery maple]

I'm in favor of nerf creep if the rest of the playerbase is okay with it. (Take the set of changes, partition them up, and issue one nerf every 1-2 months for the next year).

Between 'system shock' and 'nerf creep' I'm not sure which is better.
Bwubble beat me to this comment 😡

[normal pagoda]

🙂

[rancid surge]

Nerf creep or system shock, I just want to know what I can test! 😄

[normal pagoda]

The only reason we are even looking at a big system shock at all is because we never got little shocks when we should have

All of the things on the chopping block were tagged as outliers ~immediately, and then just ignored for months to years depending on the issue

If im honest, if we dont do them with this patch, I'm just going to expect them to not ever be done at all

[normal pagoda]

especially because most of them already have community approval. If we start rolling back things we already agreed on nerfing, we're really screwed

[rough nebula]

yeah. little shocks give lateral paths and opportunity to remedy the builds

big shocks just hurt

nerf creep is 100% better

but as we see today, it's incredibly hard to sell any nerfs to the community

[rancid surge]

What constitutes big vs little? I feel like anything that hits a class is going to feel big to that class

[fiery maple]

Big is limiting refineries.
Little is reducing Towerfall's damage by 50% (read: raiding takes 5 turns instead of 3).

[normal pagoda]

Not to discredit the feedback from today

But anybody who has an issue with the nerfs is imo too late. The discussions happened, the threads still exist. Its a shut and closed case as far as im concerned.

[rancid surge]

Towerfall got hit by 50%? 🤔 I assumed they could adjust crit damage to elements and similarly remain up there but didn't realize

[river briar]

I see very little gaming communities call out for nerfs like orna does.

Of course there is always pushback. The candle analogy is a good one. But I have never seen a child choose to make healthy habits. They must be taught.

[normal pagoda]

(Im really not trying to harp on you too much Odie because I loving ang 2)

But this also needs to be the moment you decide to be data driven, or feeling driven.

The stuff on the chopping block is objectively too strong. All of the data you have will show that, all of the data the community has will show that, and basic math shows it too.

If were going to be data driven about balance, stuff has gotta go

[rancid surge]

Can... can you be in charge of the school I work at please?

Just want to say -

It took some changing to work, but adding more magic and less crit boosters I was able to get Ara Vesta damage clos(er) to pre crit nerfs and as such I'm no longer too worried about that.

Yeah, it needs even more specific gear and I'm more of a glass cannon than ever before (still likely won't chew through ward in PvP is it currently stands if I even survive to the next turn in the first place but...)

But that's fine for raids 🤷‍♂️ might even make partying up more fun so I can have human shields 😆

QC Ultima is basically unaffected

I'm guessing Towerfall will feel it but be able to adjust

Curious what RS and swash builds will find out as their options are probably fewer than Heretic's for armor with barrels of offense?

But y'know that could be mitigated with future gear addins

[river briar]

(Or current Y gear adjustments for thief )

I am waiting for a mirror to test deep anguish stuff. Just working on upping the guilds via normal beta random and 0ALs

[past latch]

I'm sorry if this was already covered, there's a lot that's been said today that I've missed while driving to/around Boston.

Selene Hand and Spiked Shield damage are actually fairly linked together. Even as a Realmshifter with almost no base magic the best way for me to boost spiked shield damage is via Selene Hands, not even by upping my ward. The same is true even moreso for Gilga, not to mention Deity and BeoH with their massive magic stats.

[loud sedge]

Also in Boston I haven’t found knight yet what’s up with that

I’d like to see how SS performs if Selene hands gets brought down and then see if SS needs further adjustment

[polar zealot]

Oh he’s on his way

Just the 45,278th person today to hit me. Thanks

😂

[loud sedge]

FWIW I like your defense

I don’t have phone notifications turned on 😆

[past latch]

I'm in a hotel room in Woburn

[loud sedge]

Damn dude keep that in the DMs

[past latch]

Lol

But that's why I'm not in Boston

And it's where MW owned the settlement

[polar zealot]

I can imagine you did. All zeroes

☠️

[river briar]

I think it hasnt been said. But I am excited to only need to slot 2-3 pom hands to get use, then I can slot other augments for different builds.

I very much liked the personal preference eveery gilga player had for augments on their axe. And miss that now that I swapped to realm

[dusky radish]

I want to say I am entirely in the Nerf Creep camp and have always preferred the big shocks throughout my life then little shocks nonstop.

One big shock is a system change and means everyone is figuring out a new system/world together. Small shocks mean different groups are getting these changes at different times. Your own words say youd like for people to not steamroll content through unaddressed means but if certain areas are left untouched does that not mean they wont be able to steamroll all the same, even if to a lesser extent to those that were addressed.

When I look at this update its a major patch prioritized at shaking up and fleshing out endgame. Thus a proposed system shock to this, to me atleast, is more of a shock to life. I and so many others have grown tired of the crept Orna thats gone unchecked and tying a system shock to an entire new way to consume endgame content serves as sort of a fresh slate

This prevents any particular groups from feeling like they were nerfed when others werent and doesnt let them get used to power thats just going to be eventually taken away from them and they are only left to abuse it for x time. In a certain perspective the impending nerf looming over just feels worse then ripping the bandaid off now.

[rough nebula]

I’m okay with a bigger shock, but I’m just not going to be able to commit to all of the things on the table at once

As someone privy to play data before and after system shock patches, I can confirm that most players just don’t weather the storm the way some of us may. There’s a balance to strike as a developer

[ornate prawn]

Meh was going to add but I think Odie saying it better than I would 😄

[dusky radish]

Thats fair, I can only speak from personal experience and how community reactions go. I can foresee the "why did I get nerfed but x didnt and now I cant play but they can" arguments but better to have players of that sort still playing then people dropping altogether. I wont argue against numbers though <3

[versed sundial]

To be fair I just swap to another class when I feel I’m getting bored or that another class performs better in the content I want. I even have HoCed several times. I agree as well that we all want to see something fresh and new in orna which means a different endgame than AL powercreep. I am not yet sure about what’s coming but so far, at least, I like the idea of having to team up to kill harder bosses. New ways of playing, having all the classes dealing the same « kind of damage ». Instead of having people one shotting everything I would rather we came back to orna 3-4 years ago when 3M damage was a powercreep …
Also I would like to see so much more option in gear combinations.. today if I don’t see ward on gear I just skip because it’s useless… you don’t have ward? You want to have super high stars with AMorri gear or beguiled? Almost useless because every hit go through and the only thing that matters is ward.

Hell! Even Beowulf trade pet stats vs ward because it’s much better at raiding in the long run.

[warped terrace]

Yeah, Ive been explicitly advised in this server that gear without Ward is not worth investing in or using

Which essentially means that at least a portion of the player base considers the baseline pool of what’s “minimally usable” to be very small indeed

[ornate prawn]

Please wait for the joy of waiting for restarts, calling out people to take their turn, random disconnects, waiting for 15 minutes on raids when people get the boot.

[warped terrace]

Like, I straight-up had someone tell me this was not worth investing in because it had no innate Ward.

416 Dex on a helmet without using basically any desirable adorns is, to some players, considered a not-worthwhile investment. Ward is all that matters.

I’m waiting to regret the investment. I don’t yet, but based on what I’ve been told I should probably expect to regret it eventually. Makes me sad that so much gear in the game doesn’t even reach the bar of minimum usability.

[versed sundial]

Oh my dear friend… I was there… 1000 years ago 😂

[fallow patrol]

As much as ward really does matter I really hate the idea of "if it has no ward = unusable"

I use many pieces with very little/no ward, but that's also due to playing BeoH so I'm just fully leaning into damage anyways

[ornate prawn]

HoA is there still to this day we are forced to group for content

I hear that Orna servers have less problems than HoA's

[versed sundial]

I want to use something else than a celestial weapon. I want to use 2 hands, I want to use the hundreds of high quality gear that I gathered in so many years..
But hey here we are and I’ve barely changed gear on my classes and even worse I have the same piece of gear I have to use across all of them 😵😆

[versed sundial]

I do some duo or trio raiding or dungeon from time to time and there are few issues here and there but nothing insane really.

[ornate prawn]

5 dungeons on aguish with a full party, and doing 30ish anguish takes about an hour with a good carry

Not exciting to be forced to do that as a must

It's not constructive of me, sorry I will stop 🙂

[versed sundial]

I was more referring to kingdom raids and not necessarily dungeons

[ornate prawn]

Ah yeah I have less mixed feelings on that depending on how they are going to deal with loot for time spent

I heard a team of three all got famed loot so that was nice

[versed sundial]

We could have activities that would require from the kingdom to gather some mats to unlock some new raids etc etc… feels like the kingdom side got a bit put aside for a long time. But NF is a small team so that’s already cool to have a lot of new things over the last 6 months

[warped terrace]

I’m from the school of RPGs where if you grind enough you eventually get the Ultimate Weapon for your class and fron that point on you never use anything else. So, I’m not really upset that there’s an objective-best weapon for every class/build. The concept of “gear diversity” is broader than that, however, and I do wish more things were viable (even if not BiS).
-# I’m still miffed that White Mage didn’t have an ultimate weapon in Final Fantasy 1.

[bold wigeon]

For what it's worth nothing on my raid set has any real amount of Ward.

[dusky radish]

This a tailor made build for crept Orna with pushover raids. Having next to no survivability is still good for the majority of raids. This is also Mage gear things ofc since Mage gear gets +200% Boosts for funsies and infinite Mag pools 😏

In the world of Ang this likely would almost instantly die without making much of any dent.

[bold wigeon]

I'm excited for the anguish. I would be more excited if my character got mirrored already.

[oak orbit]

@dynga pls

I enjoyed a bunch too, but i stopped because it was taking too much of my time

[kindred cave]

I wouldnt call it annoying, a "you have an x% chance to instantly lose you cannot avoid" system in something that is ment to be skillful just removes the skill and turns it into a gambling machine. I mean, we already have berserk chances, dex hit/miss, %chance for certain DoTs to take a turn, etc etc, the game is already extremely gamble heavy, and we really, really dont need another function that tops all of the previous systems.

Not even mentioning the insane amounts of RNG that anguish now presents.

[polar zealot]

Idk. I would much more prefer a game where strategy is most important and chance is secondary.

[kindred cave]

Me too! But that would mean a rework to a lot of systems. The only thing im asking for is not more randomness, especially not randomness that just cheap you out

[loud sedge]

Second chance is a strategy in orna

[errant stag]

I'm not nearly strong enough to effectively test ang2.0 but I will say on the topic of ward fail

way back when I was still learning t9 towers my only ward start amity also came with a ward fail malus and like
it just sucked
it didn't encourage me to be more strategic, it just meant every turn I'd just have to pray that it didn't trigger

if the objective is to add a sense of challenge, then ward fail doesn't meet that objective imo; losing to it will always feel unfair

[polar zealot]

I got told it’s heretic’s only defense lol

[loud sedge]

mana rush I think might be worse lol

[warm oasis]

d.ursa chanellalus going from 0.5 turns to 2 full turns is balanced by what?

[mint girder]

for suffering 😏

[loud sedge]

Parapet is pretty good

[polar zealot]

Oh.

That’s not terrible

[visual granite]

Thats some outlier rng

[loud sedge]

Multiple 1/5 is always outlier rng

[kindred cave]

Selene got SHREDDED wow... I get the nerf, and i get the -pet dmg. What is the justification behind FIVE percent minus pet act?
It makes then completely unusable if youre not a beowulf. And even then, i dont see any reason of the -pet act, especially so extremely hard?

I myself like to use them as deity, now that they provide even less stats & have a malus that is insane to me, i cant see them beeing of much use anymore.

[topaz sphinx]

I’m assuming that they got shredded because of ss3, if that’s the case, why don’t we give them negative ward (-5%) leave the pet act rate unaffected and change it to a 12 hybrid damage?

[sour plover]

I agree with this idea, I think this still hits the intended target without punishing everyone else nearly as much

[warped terrace]

I said basically this exact same thing in #1369690605835387040 around 8 hours ago, and was met with…well, a fair amount of pushback, shall we say.

I agree with you, but fair heads up that this seems to be a pretty unpopular opinion. You’re gonna get flooded with “just use Selene Arms instead.” (Granted, that solution may be easier for you to implement than it would be for me.)

[kindred cave]

Selene' Arms increase hybrid damage itself afaik, and Selens's Hands gave you Hybrid Monster. So those function fundamentally different. Which is why i dont understand the point of it.
Im any regards, -5% pet act makes them completely unusable for anything else then beowulf hydrus which just shrinks build diversity even further

[fallow patrol]

Hands and arms work the exact same

(HM also works the exact same)

[kindred cave]

I do think we are overnerfing almost anything rn, but seeing crit gets reversed means were on a good track

[kindred cave]

I remember trying the arms a year ago, and while the arms increased the damage of vers II, it didn't increase the rest of it.
I guess either i have bad memory or it got changed.

[fallow patrol]

all it does is add +% of your magic to your attack and vice versa

[kindred cave]

So, basically, Hands now provide more stats for a much MUCH harder drawback, and the old hands are now the arms.
I get it, i like that we get more titan augments that see use, as the majority of them is just way too weak to be of use. ^~^

[fallow patrol]

the nerf is a little rough, I like the idea of trading pet act, but I feel that and going from 15% -> 10% is too much

[kindred cave]

Its a good step towards titan augment rework

[warm oasis]

fwiw, non-anguish is TRIVIAL

and anguish will be dropping anguish gear, where any armor could have + pet action rate, + ward regen, and other random stats

[kindred cave]

That is exactly what scared me. Losing pet power is fair, reducing their scaling by a third, okay, yeah, i guess... But then removing even more gives me titan pet rework vibes.

[fallow patrol]

That's why I was advocating for holding off on any celestial adorns changes until we can have an update that really focuses on them (in the SS thread)

[warm oasis]

ao its not like you need selene hands full power to beat somethnng

we just want it for power to go a fraction faster

[kindred cave]

Yes but the drawbacks does not reflect the power it provides anymore.

[warm oasis]

selene arms exist too

[kindred cave]

Which are now just an overall better option for anything that does not go on turn 1 damahe

[warm oasis]

also what part of the game becomes difficult w/ less power?

the "path of anguish" drops and we're worried its gonna be .. um.. less easy?

[fallow patrol]

Towers, pvp, the game itself?

[warm oasis]

yes that stuff. i can play comfortably at AL 19 and am in the global 800s, my asc doesnt even cover the stat loss from crit adorns, and Im not worried about being able to run towers

[warped terrace]

Unfortunately, Selene Hands got like 1% more votes in Odie’s poll, and Odie immediately took an absolute sledgehammer to them.

Like, no disrespect whatsoever intended. The opposite, actually. I know how tough it is. But I’d rather some of these nerfs be a bit more thought-out.

Not saying it didn’t need a nerf. But going from a very close poll to an absolutely massive, make-it-essentially-unusable-for-95%-of-builds nerf in less than 48 hours…well, it does seem a smidge hasty to me, maybe.

[warm oasis]

i even took a territory from Ensseric last month

and several from ||rin||. ok those were othersouls, but still

[fallow patrol]

How long does it take you to run a full 50 floor tower, full clear starting at floor 20? Because builds that utilized Selene hands will take a significant hit in efficiency, which you're correct in the fact that it doesn't make the game harder, but in a game like Orna where you have to grind alot efficiency becomes everything in the late game

[warm oasis]

Oryn youre worried about ward dog, which has a 40% base buff rate

even 15% base rate is highly usable

before gear boosts. phoenix, titans, less so

[fallow patrol]

it's not so much the pet act I care about personally, its the 15% -> 10% with the pet act

[warm oasis]

true, maybe the number will stay at 15 to differentiate between the arms. or maybe they can buff shoulders act rate to 10% per

[topaz drum]

So still 50% hybrid damage and a bestial pot to offset the pet act

[fallow patrol]

Small bestial pot gives +5% act and Reg gives +7%, so you can only off-set roughly half the pet act debuff

[warped terrace]

Yeah, the 15% —> 10% was expected and fair, since the problem being addressed was “too much hybrid damage is causing people to be too OP.”

I didn’t see anyone suggest that adding any maluses unrelated to Hybrid Damage was on the table at all, and didn’t see any reason it would be. Seems kind of harsh.

[topaz drum]

Bestial pot is that low? I thought it was a tad higher. What pets are ppl running with selenehands outside of the stone dog lol

I'm guessing because selenehands are a big + for beoH and your pet is kind of useless anyways since its a beos shot at second chance so its making you choose arms or hands

[rancid surge]

hitting ward scaling alongside it would still allow people to swash/mage in off-brand classes while targeting the obscene SS/CS damage of Deity, Beo and Gilga

However on live they do already have -pet stats so there is a malus of some kind

[topaz drum]

More damage with less pet act or less damage but good pet act

[warped terrace]

Yeah, I actually addressed that last bit [here](#1369690605835387040 message). If anything, the presence of negative pet-stats makes the concurrent presence of negative pet-act even weirder. It’s actually pretty rare that something in the game has both—which seems weird until you actually think through how incredibly different and non-overlapping the two maluses are.

[fluid perch]

I would prefer to only get -5% act rate nerf and not 15 -> 10, also from 15 to 10 seems like too much of a change, we should take smaller steps with that and try 15 to 13 or 12 first

[kindred cave]

Honestly that is much more reasonable. But then just give it -ward power. I for example use selene for my lute as deity fencer to annahilate anguish dungeons, which is much faster, better and more reliable then swansong, trev or qatvanga. I ofc also use it to oneshot everything in PvP (because lets be honest who wants to actually PvP against AI) because its just that good, but i wouldn't complain about having to use a much riskier loadout for it so while im doing it people can easily pick me off other territorys.

The main issue i see with selene is just spiked shield. Its utterly unreasonable.
-Pet act rate? That does not fix the issue, at all, it just creates another one.
And yes, ofc i can go arms now. But that still lets the spike shield issue persist, and doesnt fix anything else either.

Ill see how the scaling now feels as SS now scales differently with Ascensions, but i dont see a point in the way the item got nerfed, or what mark it tried to hit with it.

[past latch]

The main issue i see with selene is just spiked shield

I completely disagree. You can make overpowered spiked shield builds with or without Selene hands, the hands help with some SS builds but like I just said in #1370141629444395028 the hands aren't what makes SS OP and SS isn't what makes the hands OP

[kindred cave]

I'll go check it out, thanks for bringing that to my attention.
I notice that very often times discussions in the beta threats contradict each other, or 90% of time its repeating stuff to people who didnt see it.

Wouldn't maybe a beta news sticker with the newest decisions help?

[past latch]

Only Odie can make decisions, it wouldn't really make sense (or be unbiased) to just pin the latest ORN opinions

[weary oriole]

Oh the urge to pin that message

[past latch]

The best thing is keeping things about certain topics contained within their respective threads. This one it's tough to do that because it's about Selene Hands (balance) and Spiked Shield (Spiked Shield)

You just happened to post almost the exact same time as I typed that in the other thread to respond to someone else lol

[warped terrace]

I’ve been thinking about this a bit, and am going to try to put into words why this is bothering me so much. This is gonna be long.

I like “grind games.” I hope that bit is unconventional; we presumably all do, which is why we’re here.

When playing a grind game, it’s absolutely essential that players be able to make informed decisions about what they’re going to grind for and how they’re going to do it. That doesn’t mean buffs and nerfs can’t happen, but it does mean that a few things must hold. For sake of this post, I’m going to identify a distinction between two such things, though these might not be the only such things.

1. The occurrence of buffs and nerfs must be reasonably predictable as to the fact it will occur and when.
2. The nature of any buffs and nerfs (ie. how it’s done) must be reasonably predictable, and ideally should be as uniform as possible. That is, the players should be able to expect that all buffs and nerfs will be executed in the same or similar manners to the greatest extent possible.
   For the most part, this game is pretty good about the first point. One might argue that “Odie said two years ago that a nerf was coming at some point in the future” isn’t really adequate for being able to know when precisely a nerf is coming—but in general, by the time something in this game is adjusted, it’s been discussed for quite a while; overall, the trend in this game leans toward waiting far too long to act, not toward knee-jerk adjustments without warning.

The second point, imo, is where this game really has a lot of room for improvement. In this game, when a buff or a nerf hits, it’s often pretty tough to predict what precisely it’s going to hit. By that I mean, it’s clear that in this game sometimes (but not always), an adjustment that’s ostensibly targeted at a certain parameter or a certain item will, when it hits, bring with it changes to other parameters or items that aren’t directly related to the issue being addressed.

This doesn’t just apply to nerfs either. Back when I was in the Slimes, people there would lament that Odie has a habit of unpredictably adding desirable bonuses to existing items—meaning that one should ideally grind for and keep their best specimen of every single item even if it’s useless to them, because gods only know how it could change in some ostensibly-unrelated patch in the future.

The issue here, to be clear, is not that “unrelated” bonuses or maluses are frequently added to items, but that it’s usually done without prior announcement. You just look at an item sometimes and go “Oh, this has VD now, I guess; that’s cool” or “Oh, this absolutely kills my build now; if I’d known in advance, I’d have farmed something else, because now I feel like I wasted a bunch of time and resources.”

Because of this, it’s extremely difficult for the player to make any informed decisions about what to grind for; what to keep, versus what to discard; and how much effort to put into these things. This inability to make informed decisions is not a minor problem; for a “grind game” like Orna, it cuts against the very core of the game’s appeal for many players.

I feel like a lot of the frustration players express could be avoided with better communication of these things. And that’s not to say that NF’s communication is poor in any broad sense. Unequivocally, NF’s communication and transparency are a cut above most devs’, and it’s appreciated! It’s just this one aspect that really adds unnecessary frustration—and it’s something I’ve repeatedly heard from both top-ranked players and newbies, for as long as I’ve been playing.

[past latch]

Oryn, I know you're bothered by the Selene Hands nerf, but I think you're blowing it way out of proportion by saying that unpredictable nerfs are a problem with Orna.

The Selene Hands nerf that was added to the beta, if it happens, is literally going to be the first nerfed item to happen to Orna since May 31st, 2023

And May 31st 2023 was the first Selene Hands/Prom Hands nerf 🙃

Northern Forge sometimes claims to nerf problematic items, but if you look at the update history of the game this is far and away not the case.

Similarly, in the past two years (where I combed the release notes) only three times in the those two years have items had buffs applies to them outsde of event re-runs:

1. The addition of Collateral Damage to many warrior weapons
2. The addition of Apex boosting to Fallen T9 class monster items
3. View Distance added to the Argos

Out of those only the Argos was unpredictable and secret. The other two accompanied new content releases with large announcement and beta periods.

I understand where the concern comes from in your write-up, but it's based on a false narrative of something that far and away does not happen in Orna with any frequency

[weary oriole]

+scrolls giving flask charges and having pos ward instead of neg ward

But otherwise, yes.

[eternal jackal]

To be fair as well, most of the Selene items do have pet interactions on them. If the pet rate is undesirable, farm some hands before the patch.

[severe vector]

Also, it's Beta, if it's deemed too much of a malus to pet act, then it can be adjusted.

It just needs to be thoroughly tested and presented

[warped terrace]

This feels a bit reductive to be honest. Like you’re deliberately missing my point.

I think I made it pretty clear that I wasn’t speaking about any one item, but rather about a longstanding pattern that others identified before I had any personal experience with it. The Selene Hands nerf is just the latest iteration of the pattern, but it’s frankly disingenuous of you to try to reduce it to just that.

(Aside, if anything, your arguments about timing are further evidence of the unpredictability of this issue, not a refutation of it.)

You have a right to disagree with me—though, again, what I just expressed is not just “me,” it’s also a broad swath of players both old and new. However, I would respectfully request that you refrain from pinging me with straw men. (As many of my longtime friends know, “misrepresenting what I’ve said to my face” is the number-one way to get me angry, and I do not want that.)

[past latch]

No, my point is that there is no longstanding pattern. There is, for most practical purposes, once instance of this occurring with the Argos and people being bothered by it forever after.

[kindred cave]

You could not have said that better. The one pet peeve i have, that is above anything else, is this... The amount of times minor changes hit that you would never know about if you dont acribically study the discords many threads is immense.

[severe vector]

How would you suggest addressing this?

[kindred cave]

Which is also often an issue as in majority of times if there is something gamebreaking it is kept for way too long until the impact is so great that adjusting it now would destroy the balance, and especially after this point is hit a change will be done. A good example of that are refineries.

[kindred cave]

Giving people the knowledge in advance. Announcements directing item adjustments, or running the event that got changed items right after. Sometimes previously terrible items get really viable and then you have to wait months for the event to show back up

The concept of having items locked to events that happen in an unpredictable amount of time is not viable for a game with leaderboards, but the second best option is that.

Having meta defining items*

[past latch]

Does anyone have an example of an item aside from the Argos that was adjusted outside of it's event?

They may exist, I can't recall though.

[kindred cave]

Surely i have a document somewhere, i will check after my morning routine

[weary oriole]

...isn't it 15:30 in germany?

[warped terrace]

And yet I’ve heard the exact same thing from players who likely don’t even know what Argos are. Curious.

[severe vector]

Does 2h patch count? lol

[topaz drum]

For everyone so upset about the selenehands, why did you farm for them specifically? My guess is because you knew how strong and OP they were. We all knew a nerf to them was way overdue. There have been calls to tweak them for quite a while. You also would have collected many other titan adorns along your journey to farm hands of selene. Arms of selene really aren't that bad. Hands make beoH a power house and your pet is useless on beoH. It just deters other classes from using them as much now

[past latch]

I would lean toward 'no' since msot of the weapons in the patch were made available in events surrounding the patch

Except for the Aglovale, of course.

[warped terrace]

How many of the “surrounding” events were before the patch? (Genuine question, I wasn’t playing at that time.)

[severe vector]

A.trev was IIRC about a month before patch release

And prior to us knowing it was getting briliant lights2

[past latch]

Wyrmhunt occurred after the patch was publicly announced but before it went live

[severe vector]

(I may be wrong)

A.trev has not been back since 2h went live, lil trev came back with the release of it during another OR event

Hyperion got boss scaling for equipment, which resulted in a very strong ward hat, and he has not been back since then

[past latch]

If you don't have any examples of why then that's not even a problem that can be addressed

I dug through the patch notes to cite sources and show how rare changes are

[severe vector]

It's hard to track patch notes, sometimes adjustments are made and not documented

Selene Arms got buffed IIRC last big patch, and I dont think there was any documentation

[past latch]

Yes, and that is certainly a problem.

[fallow patrol]

That'll change in 3 days 👀

[weary oriole]

I'd consider that a bug fix rather than a buff/change.
Hyperion is a raid boss. All his items should have had boss scaling.

[past latch]

I wasn't counting Hyperion because that was a bugfix

[warped terrace]

Sounds to me like you’re deliberately ignoring a bunch of changes.

Are you familiar with the phrase “He’d rather be right than be correct?”

[fallow patrol]

I believe that was a bug, as they are back to 10% for at least a few days now afaik

[fallow patrol]

What changes is knight ignoring??

[severe vector]

Was it announced as a bug when the raid came out?

[kindred cave]

It is, and im having severe insomnia issues the last few weeks ^^"

[weary oriole]

Aw, sorry to hear 🫂

[past latch]

Oryn, you accused me of constructing a strawman when I explicitely listed my sources to refute your quoted argument. You are the one who has not been listing sources and ignoring facts

I will be leaving this conversation now, since it can't go anywhere

[kindred cave]

Could you link the announcement that told the playerbase, as you said we knew in advance that it would get BL2

And i dont recall that, i was annoyed when the patch dropped cause i dont keep a high tier ornate of every item / never farmed trev over the trinkets

[fallow patrol]

It was in the open beta

[kindred cave]

Ah, i did not participate in it, i dont know what the reason was.

Not having the time to play an entire different server just to be informed about a change, as i play this game for fun x3

Following the #game-announcements and #community-announcements should be enough, period

[topaz drum]

Here's some adornments to offset hands of selene maluses. What's missing is the obvious choice of selene arms. Most SS users aren't rocking a full set of hand of selene btw, they have ward recovery in there a lot of the time.

[fallow patrol]

Well it's not really common practice for games to announce balance changes/any changes days in advance in detail to the point of telling you every specific skill each weapon is getting?

[kindred cave]

I think a mjaor thing like "hey this item literally nobody uses suddenly will become one of the best AoE weapon choices in the game, and the event to grind it is rn, but we will add it right after and then you wont be able to farm it for months" would have been great x3

[fallow patrol]

You can now through following - https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1346138289064640542
It just wasn't around at that point

[warped terrace]

You were constructing a straw man.

I made a post that encompassed years of history and testimony I’ve received from multiple people (and I cited specific kingdoms—but if that’s not specific enough for you, I’ll cite a name: Schala, though I suspect they’ll take offense to being cited like that, because they’re always incredibly positive and I don’t think they’ll appreciate being name-dropped in this context even though they were one of the ones who identified the pattern before I did).

You direct-pinged me and tried to reduce what I’d said to me being upset about the Selene Hands nerf.

If that’s not a straw man, idk what is. Regardless, the text is there. Anyone can judge for themselves whether what you pinged me with was acceptably representative of what I actually said.

[severe vector]

It wasn't really prior

outside of beta/leaks

[bitter crypt]

If you're looking for messages about it prior, it would be part of the in-game Open Beta patch notes: #1331673652026146847 message

[kindred cave]

That not everybody will play, for time reasons or the jankyness of beta

[bitter crypt]

Yup, that's par for the course on how most Betas go for indie games and studios. Low (vague on purpose) player participation, bugs will sneak through, and usually changes are not proclaimed to the masses well before given that its content needs testing, and are entirely subject to change

[rough nebula]

Could someone summarize what the issue being debated here is?

[junior compass]

Whether the -pet act on selene hands is too much, as it hurts other builds beyond ss

[oak orbit]

Gilga ded 😢

[junior compass]

That went into a rabbit trail of discussing orna updates and secret nerfs

[severe vector]

Yeah it's a little tricky to follow lol

[warped terrace]

Actually that’s backwards. It started broad and then certain people tried to narrow it, not the other way around.

[rough nebula]

the point of Selene Hands is to synergize with builds like Beo Hydrus, where you sacrifice follower utility for Hybrid damage.

instead it was used for inflating other skills damage, so i'm exploring ways to get it back to intention

When a big nerf of buff in a beta is final, the community will be given a heads up ahead of time

[topaz drum]

Selene hands are a hybrid buff.. beoH is the best hybrid. Pet = useless meat shield in beoH

Hey

I was right. I've already said it twice

[rough nebula]

jynx

[topaz drum]

Lol

[junior compass]

Wait if the point is to buff BeoH, why does it add pure stats

The functionality should just be changed

[severe vector]

BeoH loves stats

[junior compass]

Everyone loves stats

[warped terrace]

Everyone loves stats

[junior compass]

Jinx

[severe vector]

yeah but beoh really really loves stats (lol)

[junior compass]

If I really really love stats, can I get some more

[severe vector]

Yes you may

[junior compass]

https://tenor.com/view/napoleon-dynamite-yes-alright-yay-fist-pump-gif-15812537

[warped terrace]

I read this in the tone of “you can love your cat, but don’t love your cat”

[topaz drum]

Again, for other classes to use to offset hand of selene maluses if they want to use them still vs the arms. Ss users tend to use 3-4 hands and 1-2 ward recovery adorns. These adornments can almost completely offset the maluses of 3 hands of selene

[severe vector]

https://tenor.com/view/you-get-a-kid-and-you-get-a-kid-gif-24066667

[severe vector]

i was going for a kanye west vibe

[junior compass]

But really - turn all sources of "increased hybrid damage by x%" into an actual multiplier for hybrid skills

[warped terrace]

Would solve basically everything

[severe vector]

I wish we had more hybrid skills to use lel

[warped terrace]

And would fit the stated intention too

[junior compass]

Beoh has all the hybrid skills to use

[topaz drum]

Maybe instead of going for crit on prom hands again it should have a malus implemented like hands of selene? I'm going to get torn apart suggesting this as a heretic 😂

[severe vector]

Verse and the other one

Where verse benefits more from Prom hands than it does from selene hands lol

[warped terrace]

Which is arguably a problem with Prom hands more than anything else, but yeah

Not ideal lol

[junior compass]

I would rather nerf prom hands appropriately than additive crit again, but it's not a massive deal either way. Probably

We'll see how performance shakes out after the actual patch goes live, hard to know anything right now beyond what's clearly out of line

[topaz drum]

Prom hands have been tweaked twice tbf. I guess selene hands are on par. I didn't know they were 20% originally. I would rather see a malus on them that makes you want to use 1 - 2 other adorns the same that hands of selene is doing

I'd be happy putting 2 lyncus paws in with 3 prom hands

[severe vector]

I'm going to make a confession too, I dont even use selene hands in any of my builds except for SS/CS

[fallow patrol]

Wait you guys use weapons other than Swansong??

[severe vector]

there are other weapons?!

[fallow patrol]

No.

[topaz drum]

I'm confused where heretics are using selenehands outside of ss builds 😅

[fallow patrol]

Mage dance I assume

[severe vector]

Man I miss mage dance

[topaz drum]

Ahh. Maybe so

Not sure if anyone uses mage dance now lol. I only ever used it in orn gear though so I guess ppl that were rushing dungeons probably did use them there

[severe vector]

Or windtamer shield builds

if pre-Hera Ara

[warped terrace]

I use Mage’s Pavane in horde content. I can 1- or 2-turn almost every fight in a Monument, and also easily handle most tower hordes. (Hilariously low rolls do happen, but they’re adequately rare as to not be burdensome.)

[topaz drum]

So does this have too many draw backs in comparison to hands? Is that why you choose them?

This would obviously be for the augment update to come, but the selene hands should really happen sooner vs later

[warped terrace]

Honestly I wasn’t even aware of it, lol. Never heard it mentioned before now, and didn’t look at every single augment before deciding which I was going to use. Bad decision, maybe.

To actually answer the question, the Ward malus hurts but I could probably make it work eventually. My Ward is low anyway. The Def and Res maluses probably aren’t too big an issue on Deity, but would hurt a lot on Heretic unless I’m reliably one-shotting everything. (Which, alas, I’m not yet, not the least because my Hera is still AL0.)

Long term (late t10, maybe), it would probably be usable, yeah. Short term, probably not super usable except maybe on Deity.

More relevantly, it would require me to acquire a Cele Staff. My lifetime tower shard earnings are a bit over 200k, a bit over 150k of which went to a Lute just a very short while ago. My intention had been to get Dara next, so I could start running endless. That plan may be significantly delayed now…

Running a 50f tower is doable for me (when I can find them; wild tower seem much rarer in downtown Portland than in Downtown Seattle or San Antonio). But it’s not fast. I’m still at the stage where towers are a slog; a 50f tower can take a few hours if I fight everything I can beat, for maximum shards.

That makes grinding shards a pain.

(Ironically, the Lute full of Hands made towers much faster, though still not nearly as fast as most endgame players can do.)

[warm oasis]

as a grinder of Towers in BeoH, I dislike the pet act rats nerf

[topaz drum]

Don't feel bad, a lot of people aren't aware of other titan adorns because all you hear about is prom hands and selene hands lol. I don't think this selene hand nerf will feel so bad once the full titan augment rework happens. Hopefully that's next in line.

I do feel the drawbacks on most of the adorns are/were harsh in comparison to hand of selene. The nerf does directly effect the class they are intended for though. BeoH where pet act is useless and effectively reduces their high turn 1 damage while detering other classes from using them as much. Grinding over again can suck no doubt, especially when you just finished what you were chasing.

Maybe try a despair build if you're not running anguish towers. Or if you have a trev staff, that blasts through towers

[ornate prawn]

Sadly, a lot of us don't have Trev Staves, and it's been like a year since the last event with them

I didn't go for an ornate last time it was around just the 2 charms

[topaz drum]

A normal t6 trev staff annihilates if that's all you have even. I was lucky enough to stash a t6 ornate lol

[warm oasis]

let me start again with receipts

as a beoH tower player, I enjoy 1hko with verse 4 and wonder if 19 asc will be enough to overcome the loss of 40% base dmg boost (2.01 -> 1.61)

the pet act rate also felt good before this, idk after, haven't tested beta yet. I do know i would prefer pet stats get the nerf, my pet still hits pretty dang hard when Im beoH. I just want it to buff and heal me

[ebon mulch]

Wdym 40% base damage boost?

[topaz drum]

Pets are just meant to be a meat shield on BeoH. Odie pretty much confirmed what I've been saying in regards to the adjustments

[ebon mulch]

The adorns?

[topaz drum]

#1369695388432334878 message

[warm oasis]

selene hybrid boost going from (1.15^5) to (1.10^5)

which is 2.01 to 1.61

[topaz drum]

Prom hands are 1.61 too, right? So they are even with prom hands now

[warm oasis]

i still gotta spend menu time on betaHydrus

yea, altho pen is a lot lower w/ prom hands

cause m1 vs whatever crit is

[past latch]

Selene is additive

[warm oasis]

but w/ low armor raids they hit about the same in live, prom hands slightly harder

[past latch]

And it adds to your base stats, so it's difficult to math it compared to prom hands

[warm oasis]

and I have prom feet in my lute

cause ward regen is the actual OP thing

[river briar]

Im so hyped about the Selene hands nerf. Fantastic idea to couple lowing buff rates from pets with an offensive boost that the hands offer!

Ship it. Im down to reduce how ward regen stacks

Honestly Im down to drop all non stat values from augments. But I assume I am in the minority on that

[warm oasis]

ss gives -50% regen for 1-2 turns

[river briar]

Lol

Try play gilga after that 😈

[fallow patrol]

Unless the stats augments get to have a scaling stats somehow that will likely kill C.weapons, the only reason they're so good/used is because Selene hands/prom hands/prom feet all scale/grow with you, remove all that then no one will use them and immediately opt to use regular "anguished" weapons (besdies maybe some PvP builds)

[karmic thunder]

Celestial weapons should not be this dominant tho

[fallow patrol]

I agree 100%, but they honestly should out class the majority of weapons besides a few events ones as they are endgame weapons/content

[warm oasis]

Ward healing in the same player+pet turn as using Spike Shield is the actual OP

I dont really care that gilg is an impenetrable force of nature after acquiring 250k ward

deity, gsh, and beoA spike shield, tho

[fluid perch]

rigth now in live if skill can CRIT more often than not Prometheus hands are better than selene, unless you really need pen

[junior compass]

Idk I'm content to have celestial weapons outshine most other stuff. I think amorri gear should be better/the same

[eternal jackal]

Probably more of a discussion for later updates but if augments passives were tied to quality, would add some more room for growth in them but also require long term farming rather than I have 5 standard augments I'm good against everything.

[eternal jackal]

Like (still not 15%) but I would be fine with no malus if standard>ornate was like 4/6/8/10/12 hybrid damage

[junior compass]

Maybe, but we'd still have the same issue

[fiery maple]

It wouldn't hurt.

Though having augments that are even 1.1x multipliers (each) is a concern. Unless NF wants to come out and say they've utterly given up on celestials being comparable to non-celestial weapons.

[rough nebula]

I see celestials now a fun stepping stone between between base game gear and anguished chase

[eternal jackal]

I think some non-celestials still get use and would see a lot more use in the short-medium term if you needed 5 legendary+ to reach the current strength level. Frankly I don't mind them out scaling if you have full ornate as that's a ridiculous grind.

[rough nebula]

they'll likely still get use a bit far into anguish, but will get outpaced by martyr/anguished

[fiery maple]

That is a change, and it's true that celestials don't scale with anguish.

I should do some math to see when the crossover is. 🙂

[weary oriole]

For summoner, it's Anguish 18 :)

[ornate prawn]

With that being the case, could we see some rework for the anguished raid? The current proof-only style will make that martyr chase much more tedious.

[viral tangle]

Is anguish gear useable in pvp?

[fiery maple]

Sadge but true

Oh -- to imagine that we cared about more than one stat 😭

[warm oasis]

even if its not

[ornate prawn]

No

Well yes but the anguish stats won't count

[eternal jackal]

With Selenes hands/arms I need to be deep in anguish before I see something that I would switch to. I think its okay to smooth that out a bit but I don't see any issue as far as the progression base gear>celestials >quality celestials > high end anguish

[warm oasis]

nerf the current stuff = we get cool new stuff.. im ok with this

[ornate prawn]

Anguish Celestials

[eternal jackal]

But with quality scaling you can bring down base celestials and extend the life of base gear and quality could allow you to push a bit deeper into anguish

[junior compass]

Anguished celestials aren't real and they can't hurt you

[ornate prawn]

Say that to RS Corvus and whatever other Celestials are hardly played 😄

[weary oriole]

I mean - is it sad? We get to use normal weapons faster than the others
Eat it losers 😎

[ornate prawn]

Oof

[severe vector]

Martyr lute?

[normal pagoda]

My anguish 40 tower clears were using celestial weapons still because for ward they're better than even anguished weapons in most cases

[junior compass]

Ward recovery?

[normal pagoda]

(This is a ss/cs problem, per usual)

Ward recovery, pet AI, and ward damage -> health

Oh, and health recovery from prom liver too

[junior compass]

Mmm liver

[warped terrace]

Need some fava beans and a niche chianti

[karmic thunder]

No

Or you can but the bonuses are pve only

[severe vector]

why the change of heart for channel?

i'm curious

we had a pretty lengthy discussion about it the first time it got brought up, so I'm just curious as to why the revert again this round

[floral drift]

Yea, kinda baffled with that change as well

[normal pagoda]

About to test the spiked shield changes

Not happy about reverting the channel nerf

Diety going to continue to be king of orna going into 2.0 apparently

[floral drift]

That’ll immediately unbalance what classes can do in things like Ang towers

[rough nebula]

not off the table forever, just trying to find the combination of things we are happy about right now

[warped terrace]

Channelalus is in a weird spot. At one turn it's abused by Dursa, but at two turns it's basically unusable by anything other than Dursa. Gods of Aaru has a two-turn cast, grants ward, and doesn't comsume your apex meter; that essentially makes Gods of Aaru a straight-upgrade from two-turn Channelalus for non-Dursa (gear lock notwithstanding).

[karmic thunder]

What if channelalus did not give extra turn

[warped terrace]

Honestly, I'd be okay with that

It's kind of a "complex ban" (if anyone is familiar with that term), which is not ideal

But it might be the best way to "fix" Dursa abuse of Channelalus without rendering it unsuable for Dara and base

[normal pagoda]

SS adjustment definitely working

[floral drift]

131 AL GUrsa with 6k attack

[karmic thunder]

My beef with that skill was the free turn and t.all+++ together

[warped terrace]

Yeah, like, I'm a deity main but even I have to admit that was a bit much

Extra turn for whacking something? Okay

Extra turn for essentially the same thing base has at 12% proc rate?

Bit much

But changing it to two turns had a bunch of knock on effects for base and dara that made it undesirable to use, while still leaving it mostly usable by dursa

[kind dagger]

Woooof

[severe vector]

Which is which for what

240k with current, 1.2m prior?

[kind dagger]

First is post update, 1.2 prior haha

[severe vector]

holy shoot

[kind dagger]

One turn Channealus ain't helping ANYTHING with those numbers hahaah

[severe vector]

81% dmg nerf

[kind dagger]

The poor Gilgas

[kind dagger]

They never stood a chance

And RS omg

[karmic thunder]

Partyplay meta incoming

[kind dagger]

I'm just gonna sit with ridiculous high Defense Deity and let the BeoH and Heretics do all the heavy lifting

How I feel post nerf

[warped terrace]

Granted, this particular horde sucks Eyestones anyway, but daaaammmmnnnn

[karmic thunder]

I like new anguish

[severe vector]

"I've shortened the candles, pray I don't shorten them further"
-Odie, probably

[kind dagger]

Were mob stats buffedd as well?

HP anyway?

[balmy folio]

Well everything get harder but every gameplay get nerf

[fervent kayak]

deity is getting unnerfed?

[balmy folio]

It dont looks so well when new challenge are coming, but nerfing the way for challenging high ang.

[karmic thunder]

Nerf them more

[balmy folio]

Yeah nerf more

[karmic thunder]

Ss numbers are morelikely just bugged atm

[balmy folio]

I wish to let normal attack to be our besy way to deal dmg

We need more nerf

[karmic thunder]

Crit nerf back

[balmy folio]

Crit nerf is backing now？

I didnt test today after i done 30ang fewday ago

[karmic thunder]

No it needs to be back

First there was towerfall, chained/ss and crits are next

https://tenor.com/view/halloween-funny-laugh-grim-reaper-gif-12652387

[balmy folio]

They should not poll

Direct nerf all of them

[jaunty basin]

2h weapons? if I had known swansong was relevant u would always have picked Medusa fights in all monuments while instead I skipped them for time efficiency. and ofc almost no one farmed trev staffs raids

[fervent kayak]

Medea

[jaunty basin]

ye that one

anyway we also had OS coming into the game making t2-t9 items great again, which was cool, except if you had dismantled stuff in the past. And given we get punished ultra-hard by the game if we don't dismantle / drop (by lag) it's kinda sad to find yourself in a kafkian "i either suffer lag or risk dropping something that later will be useful"

discovering sutr adorns and jewels of healths were super relevant at high quality was cool (something else to hunt for) except when you had dropped a gigazillion of them before

[karmic thunder]

Os are kinda useless imo

[visual trench]

• [PvP] Added a damage multiplier cap to Spiked Shield. This is resulting in 70-80% damage decrease for me as deity. Seems a bit harsh.

[fiery maple]

how has it affected your pvp win/loss rate

[karmic thunder]

Also we should remember that ss is made to be good for gilga. And i belive its still hella strong in pvp even of its nerfed

And spikedshield has been top meta bit too long for all classes

[polar zealot]

Lol. Some deities hit for 500k with it turn 1. That still leaves 150k?

[karmic thunder]

Yea

[visual trench]

I went from 150k - 200k down to 25k - 40k

[karmic thunder]

Seems ok

How much ward?

[dusky radish]

With Channelalus going back to 1 Turn showing some sort of unsure direction I figured id offer my 2 cents on Deities kit. I played Deity pre rework, was active in the thread mid rework and HoC'd off quite quickly after feeling how stupidly strong it was.

1. I believe the Deity line needs a stat reduction. In Pokemon the term Base Stat Total(BST) is used when summing up a mons stats to give a general estimate to the value it provides. In this context I believe Deities BST is just too high. This problem was much less notable with gear that had much less powerful effects/stats, less unique buffs and MUCH less ALs. This BST also provided it with an added layer of identity when it didnt have as much of one, these times are gone. A Deity benefitting from equpping any classes gear to pick and choose the best possible stats and effects it can use whilst having an added 50-150% stats boost from ALs and then how many more from in battle and out of battle buffs has resulted in an absolutely mind boggling performance. The power of gear and the ease of ALs accentuates what was previously a notable but not defining aspect into a world of difference compared to many other classes. I will also add that Deities identity has been more defined with Apex, All Equip and T. buffs with the high stats almost feeling like a leftover from pre rework.

I will not offer numbers but think a small-low medium Dex reduction across the board would be good as its generally always felt out of place and an unnecessary boost, a medium nerf to def/res so as to reduce how beefy the class is with 0 effort and lastly I would keep base Deities Att/Mag the same but give a decent hit to Ursa's Mag and Ara's Att. This rework totally and entirely made base Deity useless for all but the most niche environments and cementing it as the variation best equipped for hybrid play instantly provides it with a better place amongst the 2 celestials and also keeps Hybrid better in line with Beo while keeping it accessible.

2. Channelalus should be reduced to a T. All++ and retain its 1 turn usage. Removing the 1 turn use defeats a large point of the skill. This also had the natural conflict of overlap with base Deities passive to gain T. All3 on its own. Changing the buff to a 50% All v. 100% All addresses the majority of concerns when it came to too much power gain for free(especially if this came with a BST reduction) and also gets rid of the redundancy on Base which, again, struggles to find usage amongst its 2 celestials. This now would give it a fun dynamic of waiting for your T.3 to proc to then cash in on a channelalus to have the T.2 and T.3 up f.e.

Less notable aspects but likely should be addresssed

3. Reducing Ursas mana a bit and/or def/res a bit more then the others and giving it a mediumush HP buff has always been desired for gameplay and could be a nice addition to this celestials gameplay.

4. I would argue even with some decent BST nerfs to the whole line that Ara will likely still perform too well in an endless environment. Id be happy to sit and see first but I think just the concept of it is a bit confusing. Previously Realmshifter was the best endless runner and this is accomplished by having awful base stats, sitting at 1HP and low ward = being threatened by essentially everything your whole run whether thats just 2 MF fails back to back or a single DoT. This requires constant attention and on the spot desicion making fairly often while still making the run RNG heavy with death being unavoidable at times but the access to a 100% passive was desirable enough with MF that it could shine through.

Dara however has amazing stats, sacrifices literally nothing to run through the dungeon happily doing whatever it likes with its HP or Mana, has absurdly useful passives, has a Dex stat strong enough that at high AL it may aswell be using a MF-lite and on top of this gets its advantages to free power boosts in the form of its Ara passive T.s and then also can utilize Apex for massive stat buffs aswell... then it gets a 100%(previously 120) stat buff on top of it...? I really struggle to see how this is even remotely congruent in a balancing sense and I think the numbers speak for themseleves as Daras have outperformed every class by a large margin and the gameplay offers next to no challenge and requires little attention. Another complaint with Dara is that some players wish to use the Mage aspect Dara offers more but dislike the slowness that comes with it. I think with a BST nerf to Dara, that changing the passive to be atleast a 90% stat buff with 30% charge per use could help address these issues. In terms of both endless and Hordes id still worry that a free 90% line with no sacrifice or effort could feel a bit much but I think stepping down slightly on this(especially with general BST nerfs) is better then jumping too far.

I, personally and in agreeance with many others ive debated these topics with, believe that with these changes Diety would retain its strongest identity points and may even better highlight its identity by reducing the sheer amount that had to be highlighted before. It keeps the class fun and strong whilst better leveling the field that it finds itself in with a modern Orna landscape. The addition of finally giving some purpose to Base again would be great as its never fun when any of your 3 options feels almost entirely worthless when piecing together builds.

[versed sundial]

whatever. I had written a full wall to tell you you're right and arguing how everything went to shit with AL and amities being stupid and making everything stupid. But I won't bother more because I keep on saying the same for years so... anyway

Today Deity, tomorrow beowulf, yesterday gilga... it won't stop no matter what you change until we look at the obvious problem that is at the heart of the game. All classes playing the same builds, etc... while we've got literally a hundred spell... so many gears.. yet we all do the same and we force RS to play warrior. GS to play mage, gilga to play magic...

[viral tangle]

Here is a tldr for anyone thanks Chat gpt

Summary:

The post critiques the Deity class as being too powerful and suggests a rebalancing to bring it in line with other classes. Key points:

1. Stat Reduction (BST Nerf): Deity’s overall stats are too high, especially given current gear power and AL availability. A small-to-medium Dex nerf, Def/Res nerf, and targeted reductions to Ursa's Mag and Ara's Att are recommended, while keeping base Deity's Att/Mag the same to make it more viable and highlight hybrid play.

2. Channelalus Rework: Suggests keeping Channelalus at 1-turn use, but lowering its effect to T. All++ (50%) to avoid overlapping with base Deity’s passive and to reduce free power gain.

3. Ursa Adjustment: Recommends reducing mana and Def/Res, but increasing HP for more engaging and balanced gameplay.

4. Ara in Endless: Ara is too dominant in endless due to high stats, strong passive, and low-risk gameplay. Proposes reducing its stat buff to 90% with 30% charge per use to encourage more strategic play and reduce imbalance.

Conclusion: These changes aim to keep Deity fun and powerful while making all its forms viable and balanced in the modern game.

Did you know that Dara isn't the best endless class? GS is

[weary oriole]

Yes and no.
GS goes deepest, Dara goes fastest.
In terms of Orns per Hour, Dara beats summoner
In term of Orns per Dungeon, summoner beats Dara

[viral tangle]

I wasn't aware of the stats that have been released on classes grinding per hour. Im not sure why that gets people fired up also. If ALs get changed no one needs to grind orns per hour.

[kind dagger]

Quite honestly changing Channel to T2 just gives us an extra buff to stack with DC soooooo

[severe vector]

Yeah it'd slow dursa down a bit, but Dara and base would greatly benefit from another t.all lol

[kind dagger]

It'd slow Dursa down for towering stuff on the first turn, that's literally it and it's still a big buff for that content and we'd just Barri anyway so it wouldnt change defensiveness etc

Agreed though lol

[winter tiger]

I completely agree, when I first started the game (2020), what bound me to the game was that you didn't have to lock to any class. If you grind gear and levels, you could play anything. I won't say it was 100% balanced, but I remember having a variety of setups/builds for every content. SS was an issue back then as well (crit nerf, etc), but the skill got out of hand by Ascension and new gear dominating over mostly everything (see hiccups like towerfall). I refused to Ascend for 6+ months and finally gave into deity since the class was jack of everything but master of none. To this day, i play SS D.ursa in tower, D.ara in dungeons(endless/farm/anguish), US crit in raids, swash in pvp. Since that AL lock in (around 2022-23) I haven't touched other classes.
I know that Community & mb Odie too (i dont know his personal opinion on this) are against the AL cap but the AL is creating a lot of problems that can be solved easily over a few balance patches.

[versed sundial]

Regardless whether we say true or not, people just dismiss it or don't even discuss it because it's such a big thing with hardcore gamers. I only see ALs as something that damaged the game more than anything else. Amities were a good thing until we got those crazy ones that literally turn your char from 1M damage to 19M just because. But anyway, enough speaking the truth, let's go back to small increments of the same thing 😛 (and honestly I have absolutely no idea why people can't see how Ascension is a broken thing and how it has damaged the game but anyway... that's way beyond me).

[topaz drum]

It's not even just the hardcore gamers. Odie has put polls in the game, on discord, on reddit multiple times and unlimited AL wins. There are far more casuals in orna than the players here on discord so casuals want the uncapped system

I see several of the "hardcore" gamers wanting AL capped.

[kind dagger]

Still agree there should be a soft cap and a "hard" cap. Soft cap AL bonus goes from 1% to .75 or .5% then hard goes to .5 or .25. slow down the ALs a bunch and it'd give his new anguish baby more longevity too compiled with Maluses

Same time when you get high those ALs are much more grindy so theres not as much worth when you get up there 🤷

[fiery maple]

afaict this is why shackles exist for anguish. so that at least in one content area/optional pve thing it's not unlimited AL, and the rest of the game is all the AL.

[winter tiger]

whats the shacle cap at 50 ang? 150?

[jaunty basin]

I think base deity in it's current iteration is underrated but it might be an HoA thing. With great questing beast base deity is the best dungeon character to carry since 2h weapons exist, it's all just supersmooth with no buffing turns

[dusky radish]

id argue this is largely a foot ote due to the ease of this content currently but the only potential id ever seen in Base was potential from turning raids that takr 2 USs/Ultimas to 1 with DC proc and the potential to run a non DC pet in dungeons but 1. No questing beast means there is no real desirable option 2. Dursa can just get this for free and atack the atts for free aswell.

[jaunty basin]

It might all lingers on GQB yes

But Aaru robe works perfectly on base deity swansong

While deity Ara phoenix is meh with Aaru robe

[dusky radish]

This was genuinely the idea. as of now channel can be used on Dara/Base but often is undesirable for a multitude of reasons. Making it stack with T.3 however could remove one the reasons potentially making it more desirable. The goal being accomplished of reducing Dursas reliance/crutch with it while keeping the utility there but also providing more opportunity for the other 2 that can serve as a new buff to access, this synergizing well with Deities identity of T.s with its T. passives and staying power.

[dusky radish]

And also did you know that even in depth that Deity still holds the record? Depth is entirely challenge for challenge sake, not best used for measurement of balance due to a kit like GS, obviously being benefitted greatly by an environment it can leave and swap a million times and other aspects but even then we still have Deity as the record holder.

Orns/Farm is much more important of a metric and on that you have 2 large outliers with Dara far surpassing everyone with insane base kit power that leads to results and orns way ahead of everyone else with little to no effort being required in the actual gameplay and on the other end of the spectrum you have Gilga, who is great/busted in other content, but who has quite pitiful endless farm potential.

Obligatory Note: All clesses should have variance in ability to complete content varying from okay to good/great and maybe one or two in a best position. The game benefits from this class diversity but those examples are Dara=One of the single most busted things allowed to sot on live for nearing a year now. Gilga=Awful and has always been useless for any farm. Even a highly ascended well geared Gilga is better off going to a no AL Dara and multiplying whatever their gsins could be exponentially.

[viral tangle]

Yeah I bet he had a ton of fun (jk) and I don't think all those op temp ups helped when he was using statuses on every floor.

Is there nothing more to this game then endless?

It's pve I think we are over thinking it.

[warm oasis]

glatisant 's buff rate is teensy!

[viral tangle]

This list honestly looks really balanced so why are we balancing over endless.

But GS is pretty much the easiest class with the least gear and ALs to do endless with and get crazy orn gains.

[past latch]

Deity Ara is better tbh

[topaz drum]

Kevo got to floor 2059 with GS

Did he not?

[past latch]

Idk, if he did I don't think he told me

[topaz drum]

I didn't watch the endless record attempt but I don't think his floor was that high prior. Maybe it was

[past latch]

As far as what Sokam is saying - Depth is a terrible metric to measure how good a glass is at actually doing worthwhile endless

There are two Gilga entries on that list. Gilga is not doing orn endless.

[topaz drum]

Honestly I haven't read any of what this is about. I just saw the endless leaderboard screenshot and who is the best

[past latch]

I don't really know either

[dusky radish]

Odd reaction but...

1. Nobody has "fun" on these like half a day+ endless runs but they want the challenge. As I have said and Knight has said, its an awful metric regardless but if you recall you were the one to bring this point up.

2. There is a lot more to this game then endless hence my other 2k+ letters used were discussing these things and even when talking about Ara I was referencing other parts of the game where my proposed Dara change would be appreciated.

[viral tangle]

Ahhh okay the only reason the tldr gave was endless.

[past latch]

That's why you shouldn't have AI do your reading for you

Higsby may post messages that are too long sometimes, but having ChatGPT do the reading for you is really nonproductive

[dusky radish]

995 words and broken into parapgraphs and points. I am sorry but if you find this hard to read then obviously this is a personal problem and not with me. If you dont have the time to spend to read something that would take all of 2 minutes I would argue that the topic isnt of enough import to you.

I like to yap but try to make posts of that nature have less fat but like to leave examples and comparisons to better serve a picture I am trying to paint. This is a feedback thread where I am arguing complex points about a complex problem. I am not trying to "gain traction" and I dont feel that infantilizing my speech to make it more digestable is a good approach when trying to articulate my feedback to, hopefully, NF. If others wish to engage me on any of these points I am happy to do so but you should atleast have the decency to give me the same time of day I will give you with a response by actually reading any of my original words.

If you find you dont have 2 minutes to read something or are unsure if it has enough value to stimulate you then you are likely best off avoiding it and by doing so you also are likely not in your best interest to respond as if you have an understanding of the argument being made. This is a feedback forum to discuss balance changes on NFs "docket" and I may not have sat down and gave my 995 words a college level examination for linguistic efficiency but I refuse to believe that the post is even remotely hard to digest or too long to read.

But this is getting long so....

Dont respond to posts you dont read out of respect for yourself and whoever wrote it. Dont spend time in a forum mean to temper complex problems if you dont have time to digest info on said information.

[loud sedge]

@dusky radish thanks dude I understand now /s

i just want to let you know i read the original post in its entirety

and i think your comparison to pokemon base stat total is a good analogue for understanding stats and their impact in orna

[normal pagoda]

I just want to know what Odie what's to know so that I can go and test something so that i can know what Odie needs to know and then I can share what I now know

[dusky radish]

actually appreciated btw ty :)

[dusky radish]

I did you one better

[ornate prawn]

I feel this

Why do I go to work all day, do four towers, and come to graduate level essays and summaries

Like whose sitting on the Supreme court here

Outside of Towers where is 1 turn Chan dominating?

And I think it's debatable that it's dominating there, but for the sake of the argument, I will go with that assumption.

I think a stat reduction on Dara may be warranted since it's 100% now. Maybe going to 80% max, or making the apex have a fall-off chance so it has to be rebuffed? According to Odie, I know that perma buffs are a mistake, so maybe even increasing it back up to 120, but having a % fall-off could be a great compromise.

[ornate prawn]

Could even have some type of scale for % fall off, greater risk for greater reward

Like 60% stats 0 fall off, 80% 5%, 100 10% and 120 20% chance of fall off