3.17 General

[hushed berry]

Party play isn't mandatory, but it can be more efficient.
You'll tackle raids faster and die less often as a group, but it doesn't mean you can't solo them - it might just take more attempts

In dungeons, considering you're normally going to be doing non horde content in anguish, group play might actually be more challenging, but with the added benefit of killing multiple enemies at once

I do recognize there's a bit of a fine line here, however

Content doable solo but more rewarding in party play means, to some, that party play is forced because it's more rewarding

Not sure how that problem gets solved, or if it's merely a preferrence issue.

[hybrid sluice]

I would say more rewarding as a baseline, not necessarily per time

Even if it takes longer it should reward you more than solo

[compact rover]

Party play shouldn't be mandatory, but it is logical to be faster and safer than facing danger alone.

Party Play split currency rewards (exp, gold, orns, etc...) but not items dropped

Partying should help players to farm Anguished Gear, and then Solo when you're ready, to get as much currency you need

[proper dagger]

Its something what happens passivly too, when grinded the best gear and having some al, the next al's are coming through normal gameplay with the guilds, so not directly to focus on this, because it happens also passive in playing the game

Of course someone can focus strongly on it, put mostly the speed of gettig higher is connected to the amount someone plays the game

With more gameplay, more rewards, more rewards, faster preogress

I think party play is a bit difficult with anguish, needing friends with similar ang lvl, in same time zone, needing some good amount of time without disruption to make at least some dungeons/raidd, otherwise the party is stuck on his turn or time zone shifts has to be taken into account

I dont want to say party play is impossible or bad, but has in an open world handy game some difference than sitting before a pc and play

Yeah someone can take the same time from pc gaming for jandy gaming, but its much more likly to to something fast and interrupt the gameplay on the handy than somewhere else

Just some thoughts about party play

[upper meadow]

I will suggesting to add this to poll

This too

[serene bluff]

If it's faster and safer then it kind of does make it mandatory for those looking to maximize their efficiency - which many people do in this game for endgame especially

[hallow dune]

Wish we could use the god making tools on dropped anguish gear with passives vs our old gear to test the actual passive drops on ang content

[compact rover]

If you're a meta slave or just extremly competitive, then yes the best option will always be mandatory.

Else, if you are more casual or prefer simpler gameplay, solo is still viable.

[elfin falcon]

Yet it is the opposite, as the way the turns are handled in any multiplayer content is extremely slow and in 99% of scenarios an extreme downgrade in efficiency and progress speed

[modern saffron]

please all remember that if party play is significantly better (not sure if that's the case in A 2.0 btw), then people with a lot of alts get a further edge. The game has done the opposite last 2 years, reducing the edge alts provide

[elfin falcon]

This is correct, but in the same way we finally took care of the refinery problem, we can also tackle the alt problem. The change in refineries prove that if you have fundamentally broken mechanic in the game, it can get fixed.

[modern saffron]

can't fix alts the same way you fix refineries which is why they were never fixed

[fierce island]

The alts would need to be fully geared and ascended. I don't even know if that's an alt at that point - that's a second main 😆

[elfin falcon]

I dont really mind them getting a better advantage if its... usable without big frustration for the regular player

[modern saffron]

no they don't need to be fully geared, nor ascended too much

just have alts with stasis

[hushed berry]

Stasis is the issue there though ain it

[fierce island]

Stasis is getting patched of anguish

[elfin falcon]

Stasis is the refinery of the battlefield

[modern saffron]

even alts with stun would already provided a massive benefit (or blind or other status as required by target)

[hushed berry]

If you want to run party anguish with stun/blind alts, knock yourself out lol

That is significantely worse than taking actual party members with you

[elfin falcon]

If you want to juggle 2-4 phones im fine with it, if im allowed to not weep cause my teammate takes 20 seconds every time to do his move, misclicks regardless and throws.

And me having to wait for him to act for that EVERY TIME.

So i cant preselect something and then do something else, im glued to my screen or i become another determent to the rest of the party.
Its not a good system, and it needs a revisit, especially if ang 2.0 is incentivising party play

[modern saffron]

not necessarily because you coordinate timing far better so far less lag / time waste, remember it's all about what you manage to accomplish given X time

i am just saying that it woul dbe very strange to see a push favouring party play as more efficient given 2 years of the exact opposite because alts exist

[elfin falcon]

Competitive players will find a way to cheese that regardless. That is the nature of tryharding, there is no way around it. We didnt worry enough about that the past 4 years, why would we do now?

[modern saffron]

they did a lot last years

fewer event minions in party was huge

adding solo-only major content (monument, tower) also diminished the value of having alts massively (or the need)

[upper wren]

Playing with alts is almost always better imo. You choose what they use and do, theres little wait times and they can build to make a perfect comp

[elfin falcon]

Refineries were an easy fix, we didnt. At all. I dont think that suddenly now we should align all changes to avoid making it easier for high players, but look at the common player and the usability/frustrationless use of features in the game to make it more fun, instead of more strict

[hushed berry]

With party play being more active than just "One carry and the rest just sit and watch", you're going to encounter a lot less of people not paying attention. Because they need to actively be playing the game.

[modern saffron]

john i have alts with ASG

they can stasis now, will stun or whatever later, then ASG randomly deals a ton to whatever is left there, 3x

[hushed berry]

Currently, nobody is expected to take a turn other than the carry - so obviously the people don't look at their screen that often

[modern saffron]

that's major in anguish at high enough levels with high hp

[hushed berry]

Are your alts ascended and geared?

[modern saffron]

the carry can keep AOEing, the 3 alts

ascended 12-13 automatically with orns farmed in dungeon

never farmed orns on them

[elfin falcon]

Even if optimized, often seconds pass because bad connection (like i have to swap between wifi and mobile data every 20-30 minutes or it becomes unbearable) and other factors. I dont see current party play as viable if i value my time, and i dont mean in optimizing it, but in a fun/frustration ratio

[modern saffron]

gear automatically from t8 gerds used to level them

not 1 min spent on optimizing playing them alone i mean

[hushed berry]

How about you test this before you assume alt play is going to be the key to anguish gameplay?

[modern saffron]

i didn't assume that, read the first line

[hushed berry]

Because I honestly don't see it

[modern saffron]

i am saying IF part play is better

[elfin falcon]

And even if it would be, would it matter? You can only prevent so much cheese

[hushed berry]

Party play is better because you're going to have several highly geared highly ascended players together tackling an issue

[elfin falcon]

I would rather have a fun experience then one that tries to fix every exploit.
I play for 5 years, never used any of the hardcore exploit like low tier alt endless cheese

[upper wren]

Anguish is still going to be managable solo right?

[elfin falcon]

Like IF you wanna use cheese and exploits, not my business. But just so you cant, me not having a good experience, is not healthy for the game.

[modern saffron]

in general when a game promotes cooperation among endgamers for further benefits

it creates a widening gap with everyone else, with endgamers sticking togheter, progressing faster and further

and everyone else just watching them do so while they do far less

[hushed berry]

Yeah, but not in horde content

[modern saffron]

a major reason at least for me to play this game is that kingdom exist but they aren't superrelevant in progress

i mean you need one but it's not like joining a "top" one makes an insane difference

if it did the game would quickly go into a bad spyral

[elfin falcon]

thats a real bummer.

because then a majority of the fun is bound to an outdated and underdeveloped system^^"

[modern saffron]

it's manageable horde as well, just at not-too-high anguish

[upper wren]

Ive never had friends so I rarely do party content.

[elfin falcon]

and in that regard i would love if party play is getting a lotta QoL before Anguish releases, as i dont want the pain, i want fun...

[viscid bloom]

In some cases they're needed, say the Ragnarok quest, you'll need to encounter Hel and Surtr (only Kingdom Raids since... A while) but yeah. Not necessarily a must have

[hushed berry]

Also, Ancient, I would like to request that you stick to HoA's discussion threads
Not that your opinions are any less valid than anyone else's, but it's more constructive for both ORN and NF if the playerbases don't mix. That way we can see the issues, opinions, desires and suggestions separately, and maybe possibly implement systems in both games separately

[modern saffron]

hm .. wow. Ok

[elfin falcon]

Also how does this thing work?

Because i really dont want to grind the slowest PvP content, reward and gamespeed wise, to unlock my full potential in PvE. Finesse was a one time thing and bad enough; that would be a constant grind that is potentially mandatory in a type of content that is undesirable to most players, and i cant see that beeing healthy for the game.
I just hope i mistook how it works.

[hushed berry]

I understand that. However, do you need horde content? Horde content was mostly an accelerator/difficulty increase for when you can afford to kill multiple targets at once

Anguish makes enemies not one-shottable, and so horde becomes much, much harder

[upper wren]

Well maybe not but dungeon timers means you can only run each dungeon once an hour minimum so horde makes it more loot per dungeon.

[elfin falcon]

hmmm...maybe struggling against enemys again would justify the thought of only fighting one enemy, if you put it like this

[upper wren]

I cant think of a better way of incentivising party play though, I could just stick to lower anguish levels

[hushed berry]

Horde is still doable - you just need to downscale anguish

[modern saffron]

just to understand egbert so all opinions even on stuff orna has identical to HoA, i should only voice in the beta feedback channels in HoA?

[hushed berry]

Yes. It would be best
Think of it this way - taking the example of anguish 1.0 HP vs Dex

[modern saffron]

that's not identical HoA v orna so i get that

[hushed berry]

HoA values the world farming, Orna does not.
You could have different solutions implemented

[modern saffron]

but anguish 20 horde dungeons are identical

[hushed berry]

As another example, Shackles versus Not Shackles

[upper wren]

There are some differences, besides if there is no difference it wouldnt hurt to post in hoa discord

[hushed berry]

HoA sees the game as a farming game, Orna does not (nearly as much)
HoA wants to see numbers go up much more than Orna does

Shackles could be implemented differently in both games

[modern saffron]

more people here so i get more answers on what i write and more people read what i think but ok

[hushed berry]

I'm not saying they will, but if the feedback is all muddied together, then it's much harder to proccess it

[devout marten]

It's also more consistent this way than it was before where you just needed to OS everything, now you need damage and survivability to get a real difficulty scaling and not a bland DPS check.

[modern saffron]

ok if there is som eintentions of maybe splitting the patch differently for the 2 games i get that

[hushed berry]

HoA and Orna not only are different games, but have very different player bases

HoA players love stasis, Orna players hate stasis

Orna players are more inclined to slow gameplay because of the game's roots, HoA players are not

[modern saffron]

i'd drop one last idea that i think has more merit in Orna: have you guys thought that if solo is going to be single target only, then it's highly plausible doing endless for minions (not for orns mainly) is going to be meta?

[hushed berry]

So I do believe it'd be in everyone's intentions to keep separate feedback. If we see both playerbases wanting vastly different things, then that can be valid feedback to give to NF

[modern saffron]

at lowish anguish perhaps, still you get hundreds of minions instead of 25 per dungeon

[hushed berry]

For Anguish no, because of the permanent buff falloff rate.

Endless is all about setting up and then clearing

Doesn't really work if you lose all your buffs after 20 floors

[modern saffron]

at which anguish does the perma fade come in?

[hushed berry]

Also I get that, but we're trying to solve that issue on our end as well.
If the HoA people stop posting here they'll go back to posting in HoA and actually give you the discussion you need. Furthermore, we're expanding the ORN team to have more HoA members - we're up to 4 now I believe

[serene bluff]

3% at 3 but that's per mob

[hushed berry]

(doesn't matter in endless but yes)

[elfin falcon]

i didnt knew that, i thought it was opposite. I thought HoA was more of the stripped down farming game, while Orna was about progress :o

[viscid bloom]

Sooo.... If I'd have let's say 1 or 2... I don't have to worry about either of those, yes?

[formal sparrow]

I don't think you should separate HoA and Orna. In fact I think both should just be joint and allow the contents of one another. I.e. a Orna player could world farm in the world of HoA.

[viscid bloom]

In endless I mean

[hushed berry]

True, yes

[upper wren]

So setup becomes unusable on higher anguish?

[viscid bloom]

Pogu

[elfin falcon]

with the stat scaling of endless, theres no way this is going to happen

[hushed berry]

As it stands, the games are different, and the playerbases are very different. The players want different things.
And crossplay is not happening lol

[serene bluff]

Most people here said endless anguish wasn't going to be a thing when I last asked

[hushed berry]

And we were in the middle of telling Ancient the same thing heh

[serene bluff]

No one has even tested it last I asked as well

Yeah just sharing with him 😄

[modern saffron]

just esting now

[hushed berry]

But yes, anguish 2 should be fine. That's just normal endless with more stats

[serene bluff]

HP scaling would mean it ends a lot earlier though

[hushed berry]

And a lot more zerks

[formal sparrow]

Yeah crossplay is a good word for what could and should happen in the future. Even if people want different things the crossplay would still allow it. There are 0 drawbacks in a crossplay. Best of two worlds.

[elfin falcon]

ah yes, the berserk fallen realmshipfter with 1.2 Billion HP on floor 200.

I hope you dont have any plans on your day. >:3

[viscid bloom]

STATIS

[elfin falcon]

i never abused it, i never understood why it existed, its the refinery of combat

[hushed berry]

The downside is that the games have different philosophies. HoA has trading, Orna does not. HoA has 10x cheaper celestials. HoA has unlimited access to water for fishing. HoA has 5 towers available at all times. Orna has up to infinite dungeons and towers, depending on your location

[serene bluff]

is that similar to stasis?

[elfin falcon]

wait that game has TRADING!? I didnt knew that :o

[serene bluff]

Also stasis build would require dropping your orn farming gear

[viscid bloom]

I think it's the same thing, might have just mixed the name

[upper wren]

How did hoa implement trading to not be op :0

[elfin falcon]

i cant see orn farming gear in high anguish :o

[serene bluff]

It has a type of trading it's not 1 to 1

[hushed berry]

It's loose trading. You shove an item into a building, and you get an item of same quality and tier (and slot?) from a random player

[modern saffron]

no buff no swapping out of dungeon

[elfin falcon]

that doesnt look that bad

[viscid bloom]

HoA has depleting water sources?

[elfin falcon]

oh okay that makes more sense

[hushed berry]

Summoner is currently bugged btw, summons aren't shackled

And they benefit from Dragon Damage% malus

[modern saffron]

i don't have shackles

[hushed berry]

just letting you know

[modern saffron]

ok

but ye let's presume no shackles

[hushed berry]

then I don't imagine you get past floor 150. Maybe 200

[serene bluff]

I would love it if you could do say 200 floors AND get a pretty good gain on orns from anguish

Kind of like how we used to think Hard Endless could get you more

for less time

[upper wren]

I doubt the orn gain from anguish 2 would be worth it

[hushed berry]

Thing is, boosters are so powerful, that you can't really have a middleground.
You can't feasibly have it be rewarding without boosters

[serene bluff]

I am talking with boosters

[hushed berry]

Okay but with boosters you can't make it nearly as far

[modern saffron]

as a summoner? almost the same

[serene bluff]

Right it's a trade off

[hushed berry]

Which means it's less profitable than just doing normal endless

[serene bluff]

which is why I said I would love kek

[hushed berry]

Yeah I know. I just don't think there can feasibly/mathematically be such a sweet spot

without nerfing boosters.

Maybe if we went back to 2021(?), back when boosters did not scale with quality

[serene bluff]

oh god no

[hushed berry]

Back when your orn boosting weapon gave you 3% bonus orns and you were happy about it

[serene bluff]

What I say I would love I know that it wouldn't be feasible, doesn't mean I can't love the idea

[hushed berry]

Yeah I know, I'm just pulling your leg

[serene bluff]

Back when I used to run Hard Endless and would do up to 50 a day? No thanks not going back to that

[hushed berry]

I don't even think anyone in the orna community would want this

[upper wren]

The people complaining about catching up would riot so hard

[hushed berry]

Huh, that is surprisingly little scaling on enemy power

Or maybe it's just because it's a sandstone golem

[modern saffron]

kelpie 156

[hushed berry]

Let us know when you find a t10 boss, I'm curious

[serene bluff]

Base SG is pretty low I think, would like to see a boss

[modern saffron]

is 179k hp right now

[serene bluff]

lol

[hushed berry]

that is like, half as much as the one kelpie I fought in a normal dungeon in anguish 28

[serene bluff]

Yeah that's getting to the edge of my damage

for full Orn gear

Would have to swap to 1 turn Ultima at that point

[hushed berry]

That's like nothing. Huh.

That almost just feels like regular endless scaling lmao

[serene bluff]

not at 150 range, that health is closer to 250/300

What anguish level?

[upper wren]

If these numbers are accurate I would run anguish on endless

[modern saffron]

this number are real now

no idea if intended

that's what beta is about right? unfortunately in cases like this

[upper wren]

His anguish level is 13, it shows at the top

[modern saffron]

i don't know if reporting a bug or not i have no idea of intended scaling

[upper wren]

Ill just pray its intended so I can farm solo xD

[serene bluff]

I didn't blow up the pics and its small on my screen

Well we have been asking for the scaling to be lowered for HP so this may be the result

[modern saffron]

also btw is it intended for anguish gear to have an insane amount of slots already at level 1?

[serene bluff]

before anguish 4 on world farm was Triple the HP

[upper wren]

In anguish def and res dont scale right?

[serene bluff]

It should have MF slots

[hushed berry]

From my endless video, I have this

[modern saffron]

ah it drops masterforged?

[hushed berry]

This is Live, non-anguish Endless

[serene bluff]

Oh drops...

erm is it getting what is normall mf or gf?

[modern saffron]

so it's like anguish endless doesn't scale

[hushed berry]

This is in fact what beta is all about lol

[modern saffron]

so it's a bug i gess

[hushed berry]

Please do report that yes

[serene bluff]

yeah may be an over compensation

[modern saffron]

i mean this tyrm

dropped with those slots

[hushed berry]

At anguish 13, enemies should have x3 more stats than normal. And they seem to just be... regular

[modern saffron]

that's level 1 right? i mean it goes to the smith and so on?

[upper wren]

It is lvl 1

[serene bluff]

I think anguish gear only has to go to MF/DF?

[upper wren]

I dont think it gains more slots though

[modern saffron]

gotta go sorry

[serene bluff]

Cya

[modern saffron]

can someone else report the bug using the pics i provided for endless anguish? thx

[hushed berry]

Hey @ornate kernel
Whenever you have the ability to get to it, I do know you have an Endless stat calculator
Mind checking if this lines up with it?
Because if it does, that means anguish scaling isn't working in endless

[vast quail]

will the last martyr gear affect followers and summons?

[elfin falcon]

regarding to this, how does this work exactly?

[hushed berry]

Okay so it is working - it's just not a straight forward x3

[serene pike]

Why is it not letting me raid in a kingdom raid?

Is it a bug? I keep on exiting the game and trying to raid the kingdom raids but it's not letting me maybe some kind of bug

[elfin falcon]

did you join less then 24 hours ago?

[serene pike]

No, what i mean in beta it's not letting me do raids

[serene pike]

For Kingdom raids, i created the kingdom but it's not letting me

[junior matrix]

Perhaps your could add more information about how it is not letting you? Is there an error message? What exactly happens?

[fierce island]

If you created it the 24 hour rule still applies. And you need kingdom orns to start a kingdom raid

[serene pike]

It stucks here every time

[serene pike]

The kingdom was created 2 days ago

Idk why it's not letting me must be a bug

[serene pike]

Yeah i think its a bug, I'm 100% sure

[modern saffron]

So current endless hp anguish scaling is intended?

[hushed berry]

I think so

[modern saffron]

Kk

Will try later or tomorrow how much I can push and will try higher anguish

[loud yew]

More testing done this morning and have to say this new difficulty is significantly better, it's still difficult but I actually feel with the right build and gear that it's manageable

I just need to actually pay attention to the fights

[hollow ivy]

May i suggest a split between hp and dex scale in the 2 options instead
Like +50% hp and +20% dex vs +30%hp and +50%dex
Dex increase also a challenge which makes my beoa use cele bow for more dex, also an unintended (i guess) increase foresight makes me rely on amarok, cata spec or aaru legging to survive some fights in tower

[brittle viper]

Eh, whats the max lvel of anguish I can get with 55 Als lvels??

[edgy minnow]

2000% difficulty and 60% zerks for 30% proof drops chance seems a bit...unfair...

is it even possible to reach the required AL with such drop rates

[elfin falcon]

Rewards are really low rn, but its known. Most likely sees a severe upgrade.

Since you cant wear orn gear, the increase in gold, exp and orns in anguish is almost cosmetic, proof efficiency is low in current state.

Surely its gonna get increased a lot before life
(Also check https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1370478253873303653)

[loud yew]

That's the old one, the new one is on the right

+940% stats and 64% zerks for 31% proofs

[edgy minnow]

the one on the right is worse wdym

or wait

is it 1940 or 940?

[loud yew]

940

[loud yew]

"+ 940%"

[edgy minnow]

ye, I know, but I saw words about "old anguish being too fast" and etc

[edgy minnow]

but still, old anguish isnt viable until atleadt anguish ~35-40, if we assume 1 anguish level = 1% drop chance, so anything below 35-40% drops is reeeealy slow for the prices stated in guild

run 10 dungeons on anguish 37, get like 60 proofs, 1 mat pack costs 90

[elfin falcon]

That is a sad assumption to be honest.
Old anguish wasnt a used as achallenge, but a reward increase, as the challenge offered was extremely unrewarding in comparison.
If old anguish would've been rewarding enough if used to fullest potential, with logical and fair increases (difficulty increase for added rewards was MUCH, much too steep).
Anguish 2.0 has the chance to be rewarding enough to not face the same fate.

[zealous coral]

These maluses (mali? Malusi?) look way fairer than others ive seen (- basic elemental dmg, stat fade, ward fail etc.). Thats super nice!

Also -2 handed power 💀

Let my gilga ursa

Ursa being a verb here

[elfin falcon]

Most likely beeing removed :o

Check https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1370478253873303653

[zealous coral]

Damn the eggman at it again 😮

[edgy minnow]

old anguish was boring but one of the most viable farming methods, you still needed an absurd amount of dungeons on max anguish to reach something like al 100, new anguish seems interesting, but, right now its more spent time for less rewards

best example is current towers under anguish, I never play anguished towers because reward to time spent ratio is pain, getting from 25-27k shards to 35-40k shards isnt worth it if time spent goes from 20 minutes to 1.5h

[keen timber]

I feel like some context is warranted here:

Anguish 1.0 was always billed primarily as a challenge increase. Reward increases were frequently either not mentioned at all, or were properly described as “slightly increased rewards.”

There absolutely is a demand from some players for more challenging content in and of itself, and that’s presumably what Anguish 1.0 was designed to provide. To what extent it fulfilled that ideal, is something that can be debated. (It’s doing pretty good at that for me, at low-t10 and low-AL.)

Anyone who saw Anguish 1.0 primarily as a means to increase rewards, was simply reading their own desires into it. There’s nothing in the guild itself that suggests that’s its primary intention, and there’s more than a bit that suggests it’s not.

[edgy minnow]

so, more time spent for nothing is intended game design you mean?

[zealous coral]

My concerns are mainly the gap that will be left between ppl that highly engaged in ang1.0 and ppl that wont be able to engage anymore.
1.0 is objetively easier, so i really love ang 2.0. But the gap is still gonna be there

[edgy minnow]

and al requirement for anguish level in new one will increase that gap even more, because reaching same al with new system is harder

[zealous coral]

Preciselyy

Im not against diff increase. Ang 2.0 is MILES ahead of 1.0 regarding engagement even in beta

[keen timber]

This comes across as rather aggressive. I don’t speak for the devs. I’m simply saying that Anguish 1.0 was never billed as being primarily a means of increasing rewards. My statement was 100% true, and I provided screenshots to prove it. If you don’t like that, take it up with Odie, not with me.

But to your point, yes, there are players who appreciate a challenge even if that challenge takes longer and doesn’t supercharge rewards. I’m one of them, and I know I’m not the only one.

I swear, this whole rework has brought out the nastiness in this community

[edgy minnow]

wait, I have a meme for this

[keen timber]

It wasn’t about the length of the reply. It was the “loaded question” format.

[edgy minnow]

man, why do you have to bring people and community into this

[keen timber]

I don’t understand

[edgy minnow]

all I meant, is previous anguish is main way of reaching high al, new anguish has al restrictions while also reducing the rewards, which means only those who massively farmed anguish 1.0, can achieve high anguish in new system

main as in - least time and brain investment, 0 challenge, you just run dungeons and towers as crazy

[keen timber]

Which, again, may be the case (I’m not sure because I don’t use it that way), but was never the intention.

[keen timber]

In fact, as you describe it here, completely the opposite of the officially-stated intention

Which, yeah. If something’s having the opposite of its intended effect, it probably ought to be scrapped and completely reworked

[edgy minnow]

also, another thing, my first message that you replied with "rewards was never focus" was about mat prices, if you just run dungeons, you need atleadt 35-40% (anguish 35-40) drops chance to afford atleast something in the guild, price is incredibly high unless you live inside orna and dungeons, new system increases difficulty and lowers proof drops as well as introduces split in types, which all leads to simple time spent ↑ + guild purchases ↓

so, in the benining - it was about guild prices rebalance

why bring community and people into this

[zealous coral]

Agreed, but this also means progression will get more difficult, leaving super high AL players even more at advantage. This will likely happen twice (ang + refineries)

I dont have a solution though im not dev smart

Im just average at best

[edgy minnow]

like for me, it seems I'm not switching to anguish 2.0 until I buy anguish pet and sprites, because getting 2500 proofs in anguish 2.0 seems impossible

I just want me sprites for collection

[zealous coral]

I bought the pet the other day precisely because of that 😂

[hushed berry]

#1369743101710565457 message

[keen timber]

I don’t think refinery limits are going to have much effect. Top-AL players are already running 40-100 refineries while also having an advantage in guild farming, etc. Even if a new player were to equal the number of refineries, they’d still be behind in other ways. (And in reality, now it’ll be easier—not harder—for newer players to equal the number of refineries.)

Honestly, there are two elements at play here:

1. Realistically, there’s no ladder to pull up. A player who started last year is never going to catch up to a player who’s been grinding for 5 years. It’s simply not going to happen.
2. That said, by my math, it should now be slightly more balanced toward the newer player, as the longtime player will now not have as large an advantage in mat gain.

[edgy minnow]

this worth hundred other messages :D
I litteraly only saw odies words about old anguish being too fast, those words were at 6am for me, so I didnt see those

[frank sundial]

Is it correct to interpret demonworking tools as punishing you for upgrading an item to DF/GF, whereas bringing it to MF-only becomes the optimal approach to not burn too many materials?

[hushed berry]

Consider the fact that once upon a time demonworking tools required Demonforged items, and set the item to level 1

The current iteration is pure upside compared to that.

You save up to 10 days of waiting plus a buttload of materials.

[frank sundial]

Sure, I get its an improvement over that (though I think the previous iteration was too extreme to consider a reference point), it just feels a little off to be put in position to not upgrade your gear in anticipation of another type of upgrade that invalidates it.

[hushed berry]

The point of the tools is to allow for upgrading of items, but they don't want to incentivise it

The real point of anguish is to regrind gear, and to grab "whichever gear is best from what you have on hand"

To have the ability to find a random piece of ANG15 gear that is somehow better than your old BiS

If people tool everything, that goes away. So tools are not meant to be amazing.

I'd go as far as to say they are too rewarding, but that's not a very popular opinion.

[zealous coral]

HMMMM i kinda like this approach

[hushed berry]

That's one of the main goals / motivations for anguish 2.0, but it's also something a decent amount of people aren't looking forward to

[frank sundial]

I'd be lying if I said I didn't have an attachment to old gear that in some cases represents hours of farming, or a glorious stroke of luck. Without knowing what the new Ang economy will be like, I hope it strikes a good balance between new strats/equips and old stuff

[hushed berry]

Plenty of people don't want to re-grind their current BiS gear

Tools is somewhat of a compromise: upgrade if you want, but it'll cost you.

[hallow dune]

Tools don't give you the passive either

[hushed berry]

That is going to be fixed Soon(ish)™️

By either adding it, or by the new passive rerolling item that has been hinted at

[desert scaffold]

((unrelated to scrollback, but just general feedback))
I had a chance to play beta again this morning, generally, I dont think Ill ever progress down anguish paths that make dungeons or raids take longer than they already do, which is 2-5 minutes each for me.

The paths and guild looks cool. love the allegiance rewards; wish it were quarterly and all-time, not just all-time

I don't think Ill be able to pay any attention at all to gear without a tabular view that shows stats (see: Phone Arena)

[hallow dune]

Also can we talk about how much the perma fade chance is awful and maybe change it to temp fade chance increased?

[desert scaffold]

i like it

[frank sundial]

Is it impacted by stuff like Pos. Buff Duration/Crit Poise?

[zealous coral]

Could be chance to deactivate for 1 turn (the buff gets greyed out). I also dislike permabuff fade chance

[desert scaffold]

what if it was worded differently, "all buffs are temporary"

[hallow dune]

I wouldn't mind this

[hallow dune]

Would make out permas still fade haha

[hushed berry]

I like the permabuff fade chance for a few reasons:

1. It prevents people from setting up on floor one, where the challenge in minimal, then swapping for booster gear and sweeping. Or just in general, setting up then sweeping
2. Reintroduces a necessity to buff in combat - which adds danger where there normally would be none. It is dangerous to buff mid combat, and it adds variety to the realm of what is viable. Pets that use permabuffs on you are now more valuable because they can refresh them. Party members who buff you (like with Sonatas) are now more valuable.

[desert scaffold]

golum blessing would give t. etc with a long-ish chance to fade

nah, my idea is dumb, all buffs fade is better

[zealous coral]

Should make wyvern 2 a 90% all across and either add mag- to golems fort or delete the atk-

[hallow dune]

Let's be honest no one is sweeping hordes in high end anguish 2.0, and the challenge is still substational. We already buff with temps a decent amount as well. It is very dangerous yes but also extremely annoying to do it almost every other floor even in solos

[desert scaffold]

give us access to wyvern speed III finally plz

or focus

[hallow dune]

If the skills were more intertwined I'd say keep the perma buffs but there's just sooooo many buffs and without some of them ang2.0 late just isn't happening.

[desert scaffold]

maybe at anguish allegiance 5, give access to some buff skills (focus, wyvern speed 3)

or maybe add a chance for witch circles to sell better skills if your world map anguish is > some lvl

good times, look forward to the patch whenever

[hallow dune]

Let witches combine spells in their cauldron like defense buffs etc for so many currencies. Keep the perma fade chance, less to cast around but way more dangerous if it drops because it drops it all (meaning the one big buff)

Okay exp is not a fan 😂

[hallow dune]

Also like the idea of stronger spells tied to anguish somehow. Even more incentive to swap over

But back to fade chance stuff

[rustic escarp]

Perma buff fade also means no one will be investing items like smelly mushroooms since they’ll just be taken away after a few floors

[hallow dune]

I've noticed this just with my zerk shrooms

[keen timber]

Raises the possibility of an item that extends buff duration in anguish

[zealous coral]

I wonder if theres a way to make you unable to change gear when you start a dungeon. To me (its just my opinion) even this is better than buff fade

[hallow dune]

I'd rather this as well lol. Even though I'd mess stuff up all the time it'd be worth it 😂

[zealous coral]

Ang 30 with orn gear and arisen monster tomes 🤡

[loud yew]

Heres Ang 24 with semi orn gear (just a mimic head + 2 BoGs)

Not ideal but kinda possible

[zealous coral]

Thats why buff fade makes me think meta may shift heavily into tmm

Also bummer that melees dont have access to atk3

[loud yew]

Yeah I mentioned that here - #1369743101710565457 message not the biggest fan of the permanent effect fall off personally

[latent karma]

Personally. I like that malus cause it requires a bit more reactive play, but the rate feels a little high

[hallow dune]

It feels like 5% for each buff singularly vs 5% of any buff fading

[latent karma]

It also can fade negative buffs which feels odd

[loud yew]

I just worry about it resulting in limiting builds due to just using TMM + Aaru Robe being so reliable, as well as putting more power into deity thanks to all their possible temp buffs

[zealous coral]

Mag2, mag3 and all3 is pretty much all it takes. I think i'd go deity for ang dgs over gilga

[compact quail]

is this with shackles on?

i just dont see the difference between this video and anguish 1.0, other than hordes become almost impossible to complete solo

[elfin falcon]

Thats exactly why i never did anguish towers much. Its just not worth it. Not in an "ah, this is fun, but its not rewarding enough" way but an "its just the same thing, but even more tedious, with a miniscule amount of increased reward for it"

[elfin falcon]

I will not proceed to use this literally every single day in my life, thank you SO MUCH

[hallow dune]

Not sure if it's been touched on but when you anguish an item the adorns it has on it add to the anguish stats? Like a SGS has no innate HP but I have two immortal gems slotted and it's hp goes up with anguish?

Obviously doesn't apply to crit or ward but the other stats is a nice touch

Also also if this is the case why not stack tons of immortals on armor instead of ward since it goes up with the item?

[edgy minnow]

have you tried slotting immortal jewels again after anguishing? maybe it just doesnt display em, if not, you found funny stacking bug

my guess addorn is there just doesnt display properly

[edgy minnow]

I just checked in sandbox account, demon working tools explicitly say "unadorned equipment" and God working tools just transfer all adorns 🤷‍♂️

[hushed berry]

Adorns are unaffected afaik

Anguished adorns time baby

[hallow dune]

Seems like it works. Honestly I'd like it to stay that way. Adds more variety vs stacking ward adorns and stuff everywhere

[brazen coyote]

It's not a bug, it's a feature!

[hushed berry]

odd, but cool. makes sense to some degree, since adorns can't be anguished

[hallow dune]

I dig it. Definitely gonna tweak stuff around it and see what happens

Theoretically it'll go reverse with say crimsons and def as well so you get swash quicker. Great feature as long as it stays

[hushed berry]

Definitely means we can say goodbye to the ward adorns' reign of terror

https://tenor.com/view/nature-gif-7009536729952896147

[hallow dune]

Not locked into adorns definitely feels good haha. Creations will be sought even more too but gives more variety still if you wanna say slam a ton of Azures and get crazy high magic bonuses

[hushed berry]

The offer to test party anguish still stands if you're up for it btw

[hallow dune]

I'll DM

[hushed berry]

Can confirm, did get DM'd

[hybrid sluice]

Scandalous

[elfin falcon]

I have a suggestion for the beta. I dont know if that belongs in #💡│suggestions so i post it here.

Since we now see what item we have equipped im the equipment screen regardless of the items name, could we add a quality% too?

Since the appraiser only shows new items, using third party programs to do it for stuff you missed while it counted as "new" seems unnecessary.

[errant girder]

Does that apply to ward absorption? That's gonna be really annoying to have to use divine bastion again every 17 turns

[errant girder]

Strikes of ursa

[modern saffron]

wait why I don't see Perma buff fade chance in the malus here?

[hushed berry]

World farming doesn't have that. It'd be very redundant

[hushed berry]

No, ward absorption is not a buff and is not affected

[hushed berry]

That's just a regular ass suggestion. Post it in the suggestions channel

[modern saffron]

died here

[modern saffron]

ah lol didn't notice it wasn't dungeons sorry

[hushed berry]

Endless might not be awful for farming proofs after all.
It's essentially just a normal dungeon but with infinite floors. You don't care about the orn/gold/exp scaling cuz you can't wear boosters anyway

[modern saffron]

you... can as a summoner?

[hushed berry]

You can equip boosters as a summoner but it won't outweigh the benefits of boosting up and just doing nonanguished endless

You will also die much more frequently

[modern saffron]

i don't understand what you mean tbh

you summon at full summon stats, swap into oracle full orn gear except protect celestial

[hushed berry]

Non-anguish endless with boosters > anguish endless with boosters

[modern saffron]

ok but the idea is farming anguish

[hushed berry]

Because non anguish you can go to floor ~800

[hushed berry]

Yeah, so you don't need to equip boosters to farm proofs/gear

Which means all classes can do it

Not just summoners

[modern saffron]

you can achieve proofs + orn, if you do that enough you don't need to farm the endless purely for orns anymore

let me check orn gains in anguish

with simple setup

and one swap, here i swapped into full def/res to see how deep i went

[hushed berry]

Sure, it's probably not insignificant

[modern saffron]

btw the dying there

i have no anguished items

[hushed berry]

But endless depth has kind of already reached the point in power where you can run it like 6 times in one day ans not have to farm any more for months

[modern saffron]

depends on your al

[hushed berry]

That won't improve your dragons' damage, which is the real limiter in the long run

[modern saffron]

i did some deity ara endless

got my 2bln

orns in a day

[hushed berry]

The higher your AL the deeper you go anyway

[modern saffron]

that was 4-5 ALs

al 173

[compact rover]

On an other side, you gain slightly less, but you spend less time and gain proofs in the same time

[hushed berry]

Did you HoC to deity to do that endless?

[modern saffron]

if i can make 50-60m orns per endless farming anguish

[modern saffron]

i was deity for 2 months yes

[hushed berry]

Huh neat

[modern saffron]

then back to gs given raid months a morri , mimic, now apo

deity terrible at raiding comparatively

[hushed berry]

Yeah fair

[modern saffron]

i mean if GSA - GS whatever exact build can do say 100-120 floors in full orn gear in endless anguish say 18 or 20 or whatever

it might mean just farming anguish there is moooore than enough to literally never having to farm orns

but it can depend on numbers and so on i will test now

btw i think (not sure) summons are somewhat nerfed

in the sense my starting AD is different live vs beta

[modern saffron]

ah so +summon stats don't scale anguished?

same build same al same everything

live is the higher one

[hushed berry]

Well, they do, but it's 1 summon stat per ANG
Assuminf you have 5 pieces of ANG22 gear that's up to 110 bonus summon stats. Which isn't nothing, if you're doing swapping, but it's also not huge. Since base stats are 450% with gsa bene, that's like a 20% boost in stats.

[hushed berry]

#1369693286994018396 message

[modern saffron]

there is 16/17% "nerf" in beta (dunno if inteded or not"

[modern saffron]

scaling in anguish endless is totally different with or without shackles it seems

[cinder bronze]

enraged

[vast quail]

Will orichalcum mortars effect perma-buff fade chance?

[viscid bloom]

I think they should

Not sure tho

[smoky raven]

i know that the ornate chances were buffed but it still hurts getting a 198 carls ring first mimic kill when testing raids 😭

[errant girder]

Thank God 🙏🏻

[frosty pebble]

Sorry that I probably missed and I couldn't find the post, but, was it said what happens to anguish proofs once this patch hits public?

[zenith matrix]

Nothing, but you wont be able to spend them once you opt into ang 2.0

[frosty pebble]

What about the proofs spent into unlocking anguish levels?

[fierce island]

They were spent

[hybrid sluice]

Do the anguish level choices matter at all

[hallow dune]

Yes

[hybrid sluice]

How so

From what I've heard everyone ends up with the same maluses

[fierce island]

The choice matters for that level only

[valid raven]

Can you freely change the choices?

Or is it fixed once you've selected something?

[fierce island]

It costs an item buyable in the anguish shop (the pathspur) to change your choice

[valid raven]

Sounds a bit rough but depends on the cost I guess. How many proofs do those cost?

[hallow dune]

I've had choices that drop my Ultima damage from 300-590k the next was back to 1.9-3m because of the multipliers

[hybrid sluice]

Why is it designed this way? Seems pointless to me

[zealous coral]

Oh i thought they stacked

[compact quail]

it's because many different builds exist and you can choose one path that benefits you
if there was only 1 choice you'd have to add maluses for every build to make it fair

[hybrid sluice]

Just seems like the choices hardly matter, not really a path you're taking

It's just "what's less bad right now" with no actual meaning beyond that level

[compact quail]

yeah tbh when ang2.0 was teased i thought you accumulate the maluses that you choose from each level

but then if you wanna try a different build/class you'd have to switch so many levels

[fierce island]

Each one also has a choice between a focus on proofs and a focus on gear chance

[fierce island]

Originally you did, but that proved to be too problematic compared to static maluses. The static maluses definitely need work before live I think but in practice I think they can be better than stacking maluses

[compact quail]

yeah, same result in the end

[fluid jungle]

Made a suggestion for when anguish 2.0 releases, what do you all think? #💡│suggestions message

[vital path]

That's nice

[modern dragon]

If you stick with legacy anguish you can still use them I assume

[rustic escarp]

I believe Odie said Ang 1.0 would eventually be phased out

[modern dragon]

Damn 😭

[serene bluff]

They were also putting in HP Scaling to Ang 1.0 on top of the phase out, not sure if still the case

[hybrid sluice]

Feels like that's a big waste of a very cool system

The maluses all ending up the same, I mean

Just take out the choice and nothing really changes

[fierce island]

Yes, as-is they end up very samey, that's been said a number of times.

It's not a flaw with static maluses existing though, it's just the way they're laid out right now.

[hybrid sluice]

What do you mean by the way they're laid out? If the maluses carried over that would mean your choices mattered, is that what you'd prefer?

[fierce island]

If the maluses between the two choices at each level weren't the same

They aren't exactly the same as-is, they're just extremely similar

What myself and others have suggested is just making them less similar

[hybrid sluice]

What happens at the next level?

The main problem that I have is that any choice is erased on the next level

Not only is your choice between a Right Twix and a Left Twix, but on your next stage that choice is irrelevant

[uncut rampart]

I can see both options being fun.

(i.e.
Option 1: Each level adds onto the level from before.
Option 2: Each level can be very different based on the maluses present in each choice.)

Not sure I'm strongly leaning toward one or the other. The former feels like you get locked into one path/one build, and needs to be respecced if you're HoCcing or want a different build. The latter feels like you may need to make big changes every other level though.

All of this is assuming the maluses themselves have a good amount of variety.

[latent karma]

Personally prefer option one but do see the hoc/build change issue.

If not for the maluses at least for the bonuses. Feels almost too flexible that I can have access to levels that are good for gear farming and then good for proof farming back to back.

[keen timber]

Option 1 would potentially be more punitive to those players who aren’t t11 or late-t10

I’m currently at a stage where my builds are dictated in large part by what items I have available. And I’ve been in this state since t8.

Eventually I’ll have enough good gear stockpiled that I’ll be able to swap builds more freely. But at the moment, it would suuuuck to find a really nice item and want to build around it, but be “unable” to because the resulting build wouldn’t match my built-up maluses.

And I’m a Deity, so I have more freedom to change builds than many people. Unlike players of more “specialized” classes, buying an HoC to change builds is rarely an absolute necessity for me.

[hybrid sluice]

My thinking is that changing a previous anguish level would affect every level higher

I'll try and lay it out.

Examples of what might happen:

Ang 1 - you choose a malus of -3%crit damage instead of a malus of -5% fire damage (in addition of any other potential boons/maluses)

Ang 2 through 10, you end up stacking up another -10% crit damage and -5% fire damage. You have -13% crit, -5% fire at ang 10.

You decide to use a pathspur in level 1 to change your choice there. Now at ang 10, you have -10% crit, -10% fire

If each level is treated like additional boons and maluses, changing any level simply swaps out what you've accumulated

If there is a balance need to force certain maluses onto the player, both choices at a given anguish level could have the same malus (in addition to the other changes that couod be different).

At least this way players can choose to focus on proof chance, or on ang gear chance, or balance those, or focus on orn bonus, whatever they want

And they can minimize how many crit damage maluses they accumulate and stack on ward maluses for example

This wouod actually make pathspurs useful, I don't really feel like anyone will really use any with any frequency

[keen timber]

I’m not sure it’s a problem if they’re not used frequently? I’m guessing most people don’t use HoCs frequently either; they’re available for use when needed.

[hybrid sluice]

Well HOC is a massive change. Pathspur is an inconsequential change

[viscid bloom]

Well it was you choosing it weren't you?
If you're not speed rushing through it you very clearly and consciously know what you get

[hybrid sluice]

That is not my point

My point is that the choice is meaningless

If you chose one path you have basically no reason to change that choice because it never mattered in the first place

Would you use a pathspur to change from right Twix to left Twix?

[loud yew]

Between the one that gives better chance at proofs and the other option that gives a better chance at Ang gear

[hybrid sluice]

I guess if you decide you need a few extra % on one or the other before you move on to the next anguish level, sure

[iron violet]

I believe they did say there's still a bunch to be worked on for the maluses

[hybrid sluice]

That doesn't mean we stop testing or giving feedback

I would like to hear thoughts on what I'm suggesting/experiencing

[zenith matrix]

Regarding the malus
i know this is more work for the studio

but has stuffs like +HP% +Att% +Mag% +Def% +Res% instead of just stats% been explored?

I believe this could "force" players for more build diversity

Or if theres concerns regarding imbalance of att/mag based classes, then maybe just +HP% +Offensive stats% +Defensive stats% could do

[viscid bloom]

Twix left and Twix right you say?

[iron violet]

Personally, I think with some improvements, the current system could work well. I don't know what they're working on for diversifying the different paths though

[frosty pebble]

Unlocked anguish levels- do we get a badge for how many anguish levels we've unlocked?
Do we get a badge on current anguish guild lvl?

[proven forum]

@junior matrix it's impossible obtain an anguished droped item with quality different that ornate?

[fierce island]

No

Did you really need to ping Odie for that? Lol

[upper wren]

Hope its a fake ping lmao

[hybrid sluice]

@Od¡e why am I dying so much

[junior matrix]

[proven forum]

So it's impossible obtain a item with a passive anguish buff if the quality isn't ornate

[proven forum]

It's there any rule that said that I can't ping him? Lol

[viscid bloom]

You usually don't ping mods (let alone Odie himself) unless it's REALLY important like someone breaking the rules, some sussy links etc

[hybrid sluice]

I'd change the word "excessively" for "frivolously"

[proven forum]

I didn't know, no I know xd

[hybrid sluice]

Yeah just keep in mind it's pretty common sense stuff

You don't call the CEO to ask them if they know how to fix the printer

[fierce island]

You'd have to use Demonworking tools, and then there will be a method to re-roll passive bonuses

That method isn't implemented yet

But ward doesn't scale with anguish so you typically wouldn't want lower quality items anyway. For swashbuckler the defense does scale up

[proven forum]

Yes but for example Mightiest Mimic Head usually goes in broken, and like the beta are right now it's impossible obtain that item with that quality with anguish in order to obtain any passive buff

[fierce island]

^

But also, the Mightiest Mimic Head doesn't have stats

It doesn't matter if it's ornate or broken or not lol

[proven forum]

I know, but right now you can't obtain a passive buff using demonworking tool, you only obtain the buff of atk, etc that rise with anguish level, not the passives buff

[fierce island]

Please read my entire sentence lmao

There will be a method to re-roll passive bonuses
That method isn't implemented yet

[proven forum]

Ok, thanks for your time lol

[proven forum]

Yes yes, it's good to know that they will implement that in the future xd

[proven forum]

That was my question, thanks for the quick reply, and sorry again for the ping to the boss xd

[serene bluff]

Does negative defense get more negative or does it end up less negative?

I really should have tested this myself

I don't have any anguish swash gear though yet

[tribal pond]

Thats a big ol' patch

What does it mean by roguelite?

roguelike

[latent karma]

Patch looks pretty good to me

[edgy minnow]

both auto counter and fixed miss chance stays, how Gilgas keep pulling it off

Gilga, the unnerfable class

[fluid jungle]

👀

[edgy minnow]

so uh...ornate arms of selene new best adorn now?

I dont think 325 att/mag is worth sacrificing 25% act rate

[tribal pond]

feet arms will be better

[spring ice]

Can there be a way that we can just adjust AL on beta without the need to have mats or something? Obviously could be capped at a reasonable level so ppl aren't just going al 500 or something

[upbeat steeple]

Imagine having a pet

[spring ice]

I don't want to HoC in the main game and ask for a gilga mirror 😂.. HoC'ing in the beta gives me different material stacks than it would have and I may not reach an AL close to what I know I can in the main game

[loud yew]

So are all crit bonus damages back to multipliers?

[tribal pond]

Thats how it reads yes

[loud yew]

Ahhhh now I gotta fix/change my calculator, Odie whyyyy

[edgy minnow]

towerfall remains a slightly better asg ._.

[loud yew]

Towerfall does still deserve the nerf

[edgy minnow]

nerf is a bit too drastic

[loud yew]

Eh, it's still really really good

[tribal pond]

pending stasis changes, TF is still really strong

[loud yew]

Thing with Towerfall there is next to no draw back with it

[tribal pond]

besides the whole, no ward and very very glass cannon-y

which is mostly negated by high AL anyway lol

[modern saffron]

• Removed the adjustment to crit damage bonuses (Hands of Prometheus, etc)
  what does this mean exactly?

[tribal pond]

Crit stays as a multiplier

rather than additive

[modern saffron]

the additive vs multiplicative is back to multiplicative for crit?

kk

[modern saffron]

summoner and pet-less exist

[tribal pond]

I haven't been able to test a lot but my swansong horde build is back to hitting 100k+ instead of 80's in horde content

but that could be a multitude of reasons

i haven't rechecked my anguish thingies for ang5 with new update

[edgy minnow]

for me its about the same/a bit better than asg crit on beta

with 0 survivability and painful setup

[edgy minnow]

selene hands on summoner is a meme, and petless exists solely for 1 weapon

[modern saffron]

petless is what a lot of people do in tower to be quicker

and ALL high al summoners play CS in towers

[edgy minnow]

oh yeah, to skip the animation

but still, 5% act rate for a bit more att/mag seems too harsh

[edgy minnow]

what's the point of being a summoner if you are just a mage/warrior with 2 extra meat shields...

[upper meadow]

Finally my ASG have more damage compare to TF now

[modern saffron]

that the "meat shields" attack as well?

[upper meadow]

Thanks the nerf

[modern saffron]

and that i can BP in raids?

[upper meadow]

And .. how about ultima？

[modern saffron]

slightly nerfed depending on amities, slightly nerfed for GS

quickcast ultima with normal only 40% crit amity only nerfed like 4% damage

[edgy minnow]

you really comparing your asg to my 0 al common equip TF
(my beta mirror is incredibly outdated )

[hybrid sluice]

The patch notes are so funny

"Removed the removal"

[modern saffron]

oracle 2h ultima nerfed depending on amities: if you have 40 + dragon you are nerfed more than 40+ arcane (if using bulwark)

[edgy minnow]

you don't SS unless its anguish, and if its anguish meat shields deal 0 damage

[latent karma]

Few things:

1. Could we possibly get a code for like 100 pathspurs to mess around?
2. Not listed in notes- No shackles debuff reduced back to 95% reduction for proofs/gear, 25% for other mods

[upper meadow]

Previous will be 10 x damage

[loud yew]

Big changes

[modern saffron]

ancient dragon penetrates at anguish 50 not sure what you mean

doing towers anguish 20 AD does 60k or more

[edgy minnow]

@ grok @vital path is this true?

XD

[vital path]

Yeah, AD easily pens in anguish 50

In anguished towers too, although there the biggest problem is that it's pretty slow, because of the hp scaling

They take ages to kill anything, more in higher floors

[modern saffron]

anguish 15

[edgy minnow]

beta or current live?

[modern saffron]

current live

[upbeat steeple]

My tower build uses a 5 selene hands axe (GSA)

[edgy minnow]

why use live numbers when talking beta changes

[desert scaffold]

and chain shield? ya we know

[modern saffron]

because tower doesn't change

just compare to whatever anguish has the same enemy scaling

[edgy minnow]

you talking anguish

[modern saffron]

yes

[edgy minnow]

in anguish update beta

[modern saffron]

yes

and the scaling for penetration is the same

[edgy minnow]

with new debuffs and hp scaling

[modern saffron]

so if AD penetrates now

it will later

hp already scales in tower

in live, always did

[edgy minnow]

does elemental debuffs not affect summons 🤔

[modern saffron]

don't pick elements AD uses / it should be m2 modifier not m1 / even with debuff AD is one of th emost penetrating thing in the game. I really don't understand this conversation which started with "AD does 0 at anguish", when it has impossibly high penetration

[edgy minnow]

so with new selene hands you are forced to play petless on every class 🤔
still think just switching to arms is better

[modern saffron]

you aren't even forced to play CS

so why would you be forced to play petless? just saying new selene hands aren't strictly worse than arms

depends on what you do with pet, and if you have a pet

[edgy minnow]

no no, it started as - "summoners dong play as summoners in anguish because summon damage is too low"

[modern saffron]

pet can also be for +5% shards

[modern saffron]

anguish 50 dungeons

AD penetrates at AL 0

so not sure what you mean

[edgy minnow]

I dont like how summoners need to play like mages/warriors (ultima/SS) instead of being a summoner

[modern saffron]

endlss with ADs you can go very deep even at low AL, so again i don't know what you mean

[desert scaffold]

its ascensions

[modern saffron]

you basically have no ieda what you are talking about

[desert scaffold]

there's an infection point w/ ascensions where your gear/stats/etc dont keep up with the difficulty of the PvE, and he's on the left side of it

better gear raises your power a lot but ascension is the x axis

[viscid bloom]

Al's are adding to the main base

[keen timber]

Honestly, I just got the fifth Hands for my Lute, literally two days ago. If they make this change on live, I’m going to have to stop using it. Will have been a waste of hundreds of millions of gold and a ton of time.

Honestly, there have been changes that have hurt my playstyle but I’ve recognized them as necessary. But this will completely kill Stonewarg on a dual-lute build, which in turn will kill the whole build for me (and probably for many others).

[tribal pond]

it's still a strong adornment

[keen timber]

It’s not if you can’t have passive ward upkeep.

[edgy minnow]

with like 20al summoner will wait ages for tower clear or spend hours in endless, meanwhile any other class with same al will press 1-2 buttons to insta clear floors or run endless in fraction of a time, yes, not as deep, but much faster 🤷‍♂️

[tribal pond]

what's your offhand adorned with?

[modern saffron]

other classes don't 1 click clear tower with anguish at AL 20

[fierce island]

@keen timber arms still exist

You will need to choose between higher base stats and negative pet act, or lower base stats with the same pet act

[keen timber]

I can do 50f towers with this build, and it’s much faster than A.Imagination + Shield. But it only works because I have A.Stonewarg upkeeping my ward every turn.

[tribal pond]

deity, what spec? Bard?

[edgy minnow]

my 12 al beoh 1-2 taps anguish 10 towers and 26al dursa clears 25 anguish towers with CS decently fast, meanwhile summoner, when playing like a summoner is just a waiting game

[zealous coral]

Damn i havent thought about that ✍️

[keen timber]

I am not going to completely refarm a build I literally just completed 48 hours ago. Sorry, that’s not reasonable.

Especially given all the other resources I invested in it. [Even the gold I spent on the build was a massive opportunity cost for me, now just wasted.](#🏆│triumph-and-tragedy message)

[fierce island]

It's the same build, just different augmnets

[neat glacier]

👀

[fierce island]

You should likely have arms already - they also drop from Selene

[tribal pond]

From the same boss even

[hybrid sluice]

The changes are also not live for probably another month, if at all

[edgy minnow]

my WHOLE point was - summoner needs a rework to rely less on SS/Ultima and etc, and play like a summoner, not a mage/warrior with meat shields. Which started from your words about "CS in anguish towers on summoner" .-.

[tribal pond]

It doesn't feel the greatest, I understand that sentiment, but this has happened a lot in the game, and it's almost the nature of the beast when it comes to balancing certain aspects

Aaru legs with ward start fixes your problem

Different adorns on weapon fixes your problem

Windtamer boots fixes it, adorning your off hand with diff adorns fixes it

it's a gentle nudge in a different direct, so to speak

selene hands are an incredibly strong adornment, and one of the biggest factors pertaining to a lot of out-of-balance aspects in the game lol

[edgy minnow]

btw, anybody know when odie makes those square again? its unreadable

[tribal pond]

just play on a 65" smart tv, problem solved

[edgy minnow]

https://tenor.com/view/patrick-bateman-silly-me-oh-silly-me-patrick-bateman-gif-25589956

1 sec

[hybrid sluice]

This is awesome though. So many choices

I only have 2 ang levels because of this bug but it's so cool to choose from all of these

[keen timber]

And those augments need to be completely reframed, requiring me to invest even more resources. And how do I know they won’t then decide that the problem was actually the +15%, so they nerf Arms too (because those also have +15%)?

I’m sorry but no. I literally spent a month, almost all my gold (during a gold week—otherwise I wouldn’t even have managed), and a ton of effort on this build, and I don’t even get three days’ use out of it before having to invest even more to totally change it? Sorry, I’m very understanding of the need to make tough decisions—as you well know, just from my conversations here—but that’s bullishit.

Why would I ever build anything “meta,” if my first and thus-far only attempt ended up being a complete waste of my resources? Is that the carrot they’re trying to dangle?

[keen timber]

I have one, apparently

[zealous coral]

Just buy more money jeez

[tribal pond]

download more resolution

[keen timber]

I was expecting that they might reduce the +15%. I was okay with that.

[modern saffron]

that's eos

you want arms of selene

which are +10%

[keen timber]

This nerf was completely out of left field. It was completely unforeseeable.

[modern saffron]

like the new steady hands of selene

[hybrid sluice]

It's still in beta

[modern saffron]

it's minimal inconsequential quantities of gold i don't understand the reaction

[hybrid sluice]

But if you do think it's an extreme nerf, the feedback is fair

[hybrid sluice]

https://tenor.com/view/arrested-development-lucille-bluth-bananas-gif-5831031

[latent karma]

TBF while it may seem consequential now, in the long term youll run 60000 towers and get all the arms you need.

[upbeat steeple]

And gold wont be an issue for long too, most people here don't even know how much gold they have since it overflows the max visible

[keen timber]

That’s because you’re not reading. You’ve said multiple things that indicate it:

1. There is a Selene Arms in that pic. You’d have seen it if you’d bothered to actually look, but you just want to argue.
2. I already cited exactly why the gold was a lot for me. You’d have seen it if you’d actually bothered to look at what I cited. But you didn’t, because you’re just here to start arguments. You don’t actually care about getting your information accurate, which is why you frequently fail to read before responding.

You could understand. You choose not to.

[edgy minnow]

took game 5 minutes to render 8k resolution

[loud yew]

Naw if you lurked in the "Spiked shield Gilga changes" chat the out cry was wild

[tribal pond]

much much better

[edgy minnow]

no THAT is playable 🗿

[edgy minnow]

im ready to sacrifice crit 🗿

[fierce island]

Selene Hands have been slated for a nerf for roughly 24 months

Ever since Odie tweaked them and said he'd tweak them again later

[tribal pond]

They're very powerful

[keen timber]

I was very active in that thread (not just lurking). My point wasn’t that they nerfed it. I expected that. My point was that how they nerfed it was out-of-left-field bullshit.

They didn’t reduce the effectiveness. They added a completely arbitrary addition malus that has nothing to do with the issue theyre trying to address (hybrid damage boost). THAT’S what I meant was unforeseeable.

[tribal pond]

they did nerf the effectiveness

15% -> 10% on beta

[upbeat steeple]

You can always take some prometheus feet to get your ward regen back, and just loose some arms, ie some damage

[edgy minnow]

can i get quick explanation what is "left field"?

im not even joking, i dont understand

[echo night]

That's my bad then 🤣

[edgy minnow]

10% and full pet kill ye

[eternal drum]

Selene hands are only powerful for SS tho... they are not much better for crits.

[fierce island]

Selene Hands are useful for:

• SS
• AoE
• Any non-critting skill

[hybrid sluice]

And every skill given enough AL

[desert scaffold]

selene hands have a pet malus already

so idk about unforeseeable

[edgy minnow]

-25% pet act on 5 hands mostly means no pet act at all

[hybrid sluice]

I will say, lowering pet act essentially kills the augment

[eternal drum]

What non criting skills other than SS are broken OP with them?

[desert scaffold]

is it -5% per now? ruthless

[fierce island]

It's an American saying based on baseball, because right handed batters typically won't hit a ball into the left side of the field. So when a ball ends up there it's less expected

[edgy minnow]

#1369690605835387040 message

[fierce island]

It's not about any skill in particular. Selene Hands on celestial weapons are the primary reason that non-celestial weapons have been obselete since the introduction of towers.

[desert scaffold]

what were they before, for hybrid boost?

[edgy minnow]

aaaaaah, thank you thank you, all i found on internet is some political sayings and i just didnt get what the phrase meant 🧡

[modern saffron]

all? lute selene hands was the highest att and the highest mag weapon in the game by a huge margin for beo and deity, for any skill

[desert scaffold]

15%?

[eternal drum]

Thats prom hands imo

[keen timber]

Okay, and I’m fine with that. It still lets it work exactly the same with the same builds, just at lower efficiency.

But adding random new maluses arbitrarily destroys builds. I’m completely against that.

Not that I expect them to care about my opinion, precisely—but if their approach to nerfing things that need nerfing is to arbitrarily add random maluses, that’s a problem because you never know if your build is going to be completely torpedoed rather than just weakened. It’s calvinball. It discourages ever even making “meta” builds. (And tbh I never would have made it if I’d known, and I haven’t even gotten three days of use out of it yet. Yeah, I’m salty.)

[fierce island]

It is both

The two hands are partners in crime

[hybrid sluice]

Prom hands have never done anything wrong in their lives

[fierce island]

Tell that to the Ymir Brilliant Feathers 😂

[desert scaffold]

c.lute is.. ok yea op

[fierce island]

Or the Arisen Fey Badb Catha (killed by both Selene or Prom hands depending on the build)

[hybrid sluice]

Look at them

[modern saffron]

oryn your build works with arms of selene, so your build wasn't destroyed, not sure why you think any build was destroyed, it was just nerfed. Whatever selene hands build that used pets you had, you can do that with selene arms, just doing lower damage. It's a nerf , without any build being incapacitated.

[desert scaffold]

手袋

do they still multiply stack?

[fierce island]

Well "still" - that was just re-added in the patch this morning

[hybrid sluice]

Tbh I'm down to nerf prom hands themselves instead of all crit mult

[desert scaffold]

i know it went back and forth, thats why i asked

[hybrid sluice]

But maybe next patch

[desert scaffold]

i was looking forward to that

[keen timber]

I already addressed this. I’m not going to repeat myself just because you refuse to read before responding.

[desert scaffold]

im terrible at stacking multipliers

[loud yew]

I can't see it being a "random maluse" selenes adorns revolve around pet stuff, it already has -pet stats, so to me it honestly feels like the only other maluse that does make sense as they are very strong there needs to be some sort of draw back that obviously "-pet stats" was not meeting

[hybrid sluice]

Might as well take out the -pet stats malus lol

[modern saffron]

• pet stats was not meeting it because people just had utility pets so the malus was worth 0

[desert scaffold]

fwiw I had farmed for DoF for like since it came out and just got it last month

[hybrid sluice]

Or keep it on but make the malus uh... 2% instead of 5%?

[modern saffron]

now there are scenarios after the nerfs where arms are better and others where hands are better and that's reasonable

[desert scaffold]

you ride the maelstrom or you get sucked in

w/ arms and hands both being 10% tho

what use for the hands?

[edgy minnow]

325*quality more att/mag

[modern saffron]

GS, and when you don't care about the pet (like +5% shard pet in tower, or no pet for quicker action)

[edgy minnow]

(for 5x hands)

[modern saffron]

hands have higher att/mag that adds up

[desert scaffold]

oh gotcha

[modern saffron]

rip

[desert scaffold]

hmm this is patch gonna hurt my speed a lot, since i like beoH and d.ursa channel towers

and dont have the AL to compensate

[edgy minnow]

with this build, you dont even need a pet, maybe as a bb booster max

enemy dies before pet gets to act

[keen timber]

Respectfully disagree. It hits a completely different target.

Negative pet stats hits basically only Beo (and some niche stuff like mid-tier PvP, etc.). Negative pet act hits much more broadly, and actually hits beo the least.

Just because they’re both “pet maluses,” doesn’t really make them especially comparable or categoric. They’re extremely different, and imo one being present does not necessarily suggest the possibility of the other being added.

Frankly, there was no real indication that any additional malus would be added, since the thing they were trying to address was hybrid damage—so to an extent any at all being added was “unforeseeable.” But even beyond that, very few things in the game have both pet-act and pet-stat maluses, specifically because they’re so different in practice.

[desert scaffold]

hard disagree. this is a beoH nerf, not deity

[modern saffron]

the 5 selene hands (or 3 depending on details) were used by a lot of people in dungeons, with utility pet. The -action rate hits all of them

[desert scaffold]

yea true. and think of the heretics, they dont have room in their build for more pet act

[hybrid sluice]

Selene hands were used by basically all the top classes

[upbeat steeple]

All classes, even worst ones

[modern saffron]

aside from towers where everyone used them at high al for cs

[echo night]

Not sure if any heretics still even use selene hands augments

[modern saffron]

deity mage dance was with lute selene hands

[fierce island]

Realmshifter Spiked Shield, Sweep, or Arrowstorm is with Selene Hands

[desert scaffold]

everyone mage dance was with lute selene hands

[modern saffron]

now 2h surpassed mage dance but with the 2h debuffs i was thinking of going back to mage dance, now i'll have to see

[desert scaffold]

oh wait nvm, class gear restrictions

but yea

[edgy minnow]

*mage dance wasnt even really possible unless lute selene hands

[upbeat steeple]

Wind shield also lute selene hands

[desert scaffold]

this shakes stuff up

[fierce island]

Yeah RS just did it with an axe or bow

[modern saffron]

lol hera corvus can orn farm mage dance with terrors

just a nerf i fear RRR

in the sense that the builds are still viable, just weaker, unclear if other builds become better

[edgy minnow]

how, unless you had like 10k mag mage dance couldnt pen T10 bosses

[desert scaffold]

do we get to /riot?

if this was in the name of SS scaling?

[latent karma]

I'm making this claim independnt of any balance etc, but just from my perspective the path system is a lot more fun when it has more choices and builds.

[edgy minnow]

if counter and fixed miss chance stays - i say nerf SS damage even more 🗿

[desert scaffold]

maybe they could add a ward regen malus instead :p

[latent karma]

In playing with it a bit, I think the ability to avoid any of the real tough maluses warrant an increase in enemy stats. I'm able to run shackled 33 horde boss pretty easily, without too much threat. That being said haven't run into any scary berserks yet.

[hallow dune]

New choices are welcome but agreed with Geppu, make the easier ones stats scale higher or toss in something a little spicy with it. Loving the choices though

[desert scaffold]

horde boss at al33 is so far beyond the limit of my game experience, lol

good luck, prob even harder to balance

[loud yew]

I'm very easily running Ang36 boss hordes currently

[latent karma]

Even if just higher stat scaling across the board (I think its already lowered from last patch?) that would help make it harder to make up for the agency

[loud yew]

Thanks to the crit revert (which I'm still not the biggest fan on)

[hybrid sluice]

Yeah once the balancing is good, the choices will be a very awesome system

[hallow dune]

I much prefer the choices but it did make it immensely easier because of the crit revert. It did open back up more build choices though. Just needs some more tuning like Goody said

Inching closer lol

[modern saffron]

is this using the tools to get anguish 33 gear?

[hybrid sluice]

I'm not sure the best way to do it - one possibility is to increase the appearance/intensity of maluses you haven't taken yet with each level

But that is very complicated

[latent karma]

Currently running, Ang 30 head, 28 body, 28 boots, 16 shield, Celestial Axe. On one hand its all basically BIS gear for gilga, on the other hand, none of it have special anguish mods since it was my original gear

[modern saffron]

CS build?

[latent karma]

Yep

[quartz girder]

c i a
s s w
s e

[modern saffron]

with the new path geppu did you see if

2h maluses can be dodged?

[latent karma]

You can dodge them yes,

[modern saffron]

ie if you can end up with 2h crit build at anguish 25-30?

kk

[latent karma]

I'll check to see if you can dodge both them and crit

[modern saffron]

i don't think stats should ne nerfed btw for opponents

i think cs should

[modern saffron]

because i feel a25-28-30 with 2h at current stats won't be funny anyway

[loud yew]

Basically 100% proof chance (though you can only earn 1 per floor even with horde more)

[modern saffron]

1 per floor??

is that intended or bug?

[loud yew]

Unsure

[modern saffron]

also is 200% anguish gear guaranteed anguished gear ?

[loud yew]

No I'm still getting reg ornates

[latent karma]

From what I see you can fully dodge both 2H and Crit, but you might have to take some tough ones in a few places (accuracy, more status)

[loud yew]

I'll record a run 1 sec

[modern saffron]

thx ut well some hard ones make sense

[desert scaffold]

ascension requirement is the gnarliest part of that ss for me xD

[hallow dune]

It's all of the classes combined as well you can get a bunch just by getting say the other four AL 5

[desert scaffold]

hmmm i might be AL100 then

but if orna taught me anything its if im going to hit above my weight, itll be slow & painful

[gray solar]

A few major observations:

• the rogue like system is amazing, and i definitely think it is the way to go. It solves a lot of the problems certain classes were going to have (realm with ward absorption) and overall makes the choices far more compelling
• however, the current malus options have made anguish way easier already. Either the negative effects need to be doubled (at least) or we need to be forced to pick two per level.

[gray solar]

Quoting myself for extra emphasis - anguish 30 towers are a breeze now.

[loud yew]

AL99 at Ang36, 2min boss horde, 98% proof chance, and apparently above 200% Ang gear chance

[gray solar]

Im thinking the new maluses might have bugged the enemy scaling or something honestly - this feels waaaaay to easy

[hybrid sluice]

Compare some hp totals from y'alls testing

[gray solar]

HP totals seem the same

[hybrid sluice]

Hmm that might be handled separately than stat increases

[gray solar]

But given chained shield got nerfed, and my damage went up, I think the def/res and atk/mag totals are wonky

[hybrid sluice]

Might be the case - we are seeing displayed 200% ang gear chance and it's clearly wrong

So the stat increases might be bugged too

[latent karma]

I think stats are way down? Weren't they in the 900% range at 33 last week? I only have 581% right now

[loud yew]

Definitely feels a little too easy but unsure if the 1 proof per floor is a big or a feature.

One feature I could see being interesting is the proof %'s/rewards
I feel the rewards should scale based on the maluses, like for ones that are "-5% healing" should not reward much in terms of proof %, but ones like "Permanent Status Fade Chance" should give significantly more proofs/bonuses and is much more of a malus

[loud yew]

First iteration on the left, first reduction on the right

[gray solar]

Floor 21 anguish 30 dragon fight

[loud yew]

And now

[hybrid sluice]

Oh wow lol

Yeah difficulty probably just accidentally reduced overall

Needs more anguish

[compact rover]

mmh, that would mean it would be faster and easier to solo normal dungeon than partying to get exactly the same amount but way slower

[viscid bloom]

They still require enemies of your tier right?

[compact rover]

yep I just checked that

it only rewards you when you win a floor at your tier

[viscid bloom]

All or just bosses?

[loud yew]

All

[viscid bloom]

Pogu

[compact rover]

oh, so it is really basic normal dungeon

that's way easier

too easier I would risk to say

[viscid bloom]

And I can't get the proofs for dungeon when doing lets say a tower right?

[latent karma]

Do we know if over 100% allows you to get 2 a floor?

[vast quail]

Don't the changes to Selene's hands nuke windtamer shield

[compact rover]

-5% follower's act chance hits hard

[tribal pond]

I wouldn't say "nuke"

[hybrid sluice]

Yeah do y'all think decreasing that a bit might be better

3% or 2%?

[compact rover]

-2% would be more acceptable

most followers don't go higher than 10% act chance

[tribal pond]

we gotta do the math 🗣️

[compact rover]

Rarer are followers like Steward Golem or Stonewarg having crazy act chance

[modern saffron]

no just reduced the damage

can always use arms

[tribal pond]

cause iirc follower act chance is funky

[modern saffron]

guys there are always arms...

[tribal pond]

there's a chart somewhere, my discord is slowing way down trying to find it lol

but I would assume that -25% pet act rate would equal out to be -25% of base act rate, so 10% = 7.5% but the math is funky since it goes through a big if/then list of buffs/attks/etc

[compact rover]

for me, it is flat reduction

[vast quail]

The arms have crap stats

[compact rover]

not an overall % reduction

[vast quail]

What's the hybrid damage in beta now

On hands

[compact rover]

10%

[vast quail]

That sucks

[loud yew]

I feel this would be one of the best ways to go about balancing the new bonus/maluses. These %s are purely for explanation purposes and are not realistic, just trying to show there should be a difference in the rewards depending on the difficulty addition of the maluse

[compact rover]

not that much, it still +50% with 5x augments

[vast quail]

Oh well ig I'll swap to av3

Since the crit changes are gone

Windtamer has bad survivability anyways

[spring ice]

Don't you want less pet act on stone dog anyway? Higher = less act on WoO? I've never have had an issue with stone dog acting while having no pet act - if stone dog is the main outcry on selene hands

[vast quail]

Shame I just demonforged mine though lmao

[upbeat steeple]

What did you do to your dog?

[viscid bloom]

You forged your dog where?

[edgy minnow]

thank you for a good image yoink

[viscid bloom]

Ehh, take it.

I stole it too

Take cooki too

[vast quail]

I meant my windtamers shield

[edgy minnow]

I can trade for this 2

[upper meadow]

One of the reason able to clear horde now because the crit dmg nerf is remove after annoucment

[viscid bloom]

I'm most definitely taking the first one

[upper meadow]

I think the dungeon getting better now

[hybrid sluice]

Yes but hard to gauge which maluses are the best/worst, since builds can be so different

There could also be some floors that stack bad maluses against each other. Like two options give -crit, two options give -ward absorption. Idk

Even then I'd take ward absorption, I hardly use ward when raiding

[viscid bloom]

On a side note what's the name of that... Hmm... What even is it?

[edgy minnow]

Koharu in Fumo form

[viscid bloom]

Thaaaank you~

[loud yew]

There are a lot that are very easy to gauge, like "-5% potion healing" and "-5% Permanent Effect fade" very obviously don't add the same amount of difficulty

Crit and elemental may be hard to gauge

But taking 5% extra DMG from magical/Balor, etc is basically nothing in the long run in comparison to -crit/element dmg

[latent karma]

Its a bit tough because they affect some classes more than others, SS the crit malus is basically a freebie, so if it was worth a lot it would be double dipping success effectively. Healing also affects things like life siphon, recharge etc, so I've been a bit hesitatnt to take.

[brittle viper]

-5% permanent effect is the most annoying thing that exist

[loud yew]

100%, which why I feel it should give significantly more rewards for putting up with it

Because as it sits now, no one will ever go with that option

[latent karma]

I think more variety would make more sensse than varying stat bonuses. I don't think the crit malus should always be crit chance AND crit damage, why not crit chance AND healing? Why not just have level 20 have the permanent status drop off on EVERY row in addition to some stuff. The option of choice doesnt need to be full choice

[hybrid sluice]

Yeah if needed for balance, having a few levels where a malus is guaranteed in all options is fine

[gray solar]

Not sure if Odie is around, but it looks like all of the maluses changed again?

That or I've got a visual bug going on

[fierce island]

Either could be true, but update your client

There's a slightly different UI in the new version that makes levels not look awful and squished

[gray solar]

No bug, but new maluses and new Ui

My current setup was giving me 16% ward failure 😅

[desert scaffold]

you can dodge a wrench

[gray solar]

Super early feedback, this feels much better than the first rougelike iteration. Will test once I work through 30 choices again

[latent karma]

Yeah the choices are a lot tougher

[edgy minnow]

this new "can't equip" icons look a bit misplaced with high adorn equips

[brittle viper]

Nooooo, don't put permanent status drop in everything please

[uncut rampart]

why not?

[latent karma]

Yeah, just went through my levels with pathspur again and it felt really bad in a good way

[edgy minnow]

does anybody know if costs for these are final or temporary?

[brittle viper]

It's very annoying, and you can't counter it

[latent karma]

You counter it by putting the status back on

[brittle viper]

[fierce island]

Tbh pathspur being 5 makes me think it could be final. Demonworking tools price is temporary

[latent karma]

You dont have to buff floor 1, start buffing floor 15 and keep an eye on it

[brittle viper]

It makes sense to have something like status drop in anguish(obviously) but its very annoying

[uncut rampart]

Anguish content is supposed to play differently from non-anguished content. Buff fall-off is certainly one of the most impactful differences; having to rebuff on later floors of a dungeon is a novel thing after years of "buff then sweep".

[latent karma]

That being said (I don't know if its the case) I don't think it should be per mob

[fierce island]

I suspect it is currently per mob

[edgy minnow]

I can already see
... used wyvern speed I, but it failed
... used wyvern speed I, but it failed
... used wyvern speed I, ... magic power is increased
... used ...
... magic power is no longer increased (fade)
... used wyvern speed I, but it failed
... used wyvern speed I, but it failed

[brittle viper]

I was thinking about raids

[latent karma]

drink one of the 3k attack tonics you have

[desert scaffold]

can i request a text bubble // entry in the log for when perm status buffs fade

[edgy minnow]

ye ye, I know, but its still funny tho

[viscid bloom]

Excuse me, why are they so weak?

[desert scaffold]

i play with status condensed and cant barely tell if Gait of Bryn succeeds, let alone whether theyre all fading or w/e

[viscid bloom]

Will it be the time of my downfall?

[torn trench]

I personally see buff fall off as more of a nuisance then a challenge. The wording novel I think is actually quite apt as it may be more interesting now while it is novel and new but after you realize how many times you are rebuffing in content youd likely get more frustrated with the time spent buffing v. actually fighting

[latent karma]

Play with it uncondensed, its not bad cause the game keeps taking them off

[torn trench]

as is I think buffing is already quite tedious

[hallow dune]

This iteration is much better in terms of difficulty and choices lol

[desert scaffold]

no, log everything

[viscid bloom]

I really hope it won't work on summons

[edgy minnow]

with new proof drops being split AND lower than old ones, I'm really hoping for fair price

[hybrid sluice]

Wyvern speed 1 has a 90% success rate 😎

[edgy minnow]

is -20% 2h power here to stay forever? seems like a weird choice to nerf 2h right after their buff

[edgy minnow]

more like 20%

[hybrid sluice]

I've had to use it 3 times in a row to get mag+

[latent karma]

IMO this is the best tuned both the difficulty and the choices have felt so far

[viscid bloom]

[junior matrix]

this one's my favourite

[keen timber]

Oh gods okay. This is going to be interesting.

Thank you, Dangy, for the mirror. Unfortunately, my planned testing is likely no longer going to be doable.

I got mirrored over with a Lute full of Hands and not enough Arms to “fix” it, because that’s what I have in my inventory right now on live. On live, this’ll clear 50f towers and absolutely steamroll anguish-13 dungeons, despite the very low Ward—but in both cases, only because of A.Stonewarg. (If I have to upkeep my own Ward, it ends quickly and painfully; I’ve tried.)

I’m going to have to either spend a couple weeks grinding Selene towers on Beta, or—more likely—go back to my old A.Imagination + Shield + Maji setup. I’m not certain either is a good option. (The old setup could also clear 50f towers and a13 dungeons, and had around three times as much Ward—but it was much slower and much more prone to getting killed by bad RNG.)

[edgy minnow]

you can try fusing titan adorns in hopes of getting some selene arms

[keen timber]

Could do. Good idea!

[latent karma]

you can also just build/run a quick 10f selene and hope

[edgy minnow]

if its main mirror, orns and shards are also mirrored, so if you poor - you poor

XD

[keen timber]

I already have a 10f Selene at my OT, so yeah. That’s probably the plan. Will take a while.

[tribal pond]

I have a lot of the adorns on beta mirror, what build are you trying to test?

[keen timber]

At least I got that, lol

[latent karma]

the floor shard costs is really reduced on beta, and you usually get tons of orns from regetting all the achievements

[viscid bloom]

Mister Odie, was there some silent summoner nerf I was not made aware of?
My AD went from having over 200k HO to only 51-ish K

[modern saffron]

The reality of this game (and most other games) is that dealing damage is much more important than defending so in general debuffs to character damage dealing are more relevant than buffs to opponents damage capabilities.

Stuff that makes you instalose can be an exception

[keen timber]

Well, basically, there aren’t many testers at my AL and level, so I was gonna test…uh, Anguish. Figured I could offer a somewhat unique perspective.

Will still do that. Just kind of gimped.

[fierce island]

#1369693286994018396 message

[brittle viper]

I don't know how permanent status drop works on dgs but I know in raids you can lose more than 1 permanent status per turn(or I wasn't paying attention )

[tribal pond]

understandable

[viscid bloom]

Yes you can

[edgy minnow]

5% fade moment

[viscid bloom]

Had this while testing if deity's lasting power worked on that... I'm not sure if it works or not but the chances are definitely not on my side

[edgy minnow]

dont think permafade can be countered

[viscid bloom]

"It's just 5%" they said
"They won't fade that often" they said
Well now I'm buffless on floor 24!!

[edgy minnow]

also, do we know if +accuracy counters anguish -accuracy or they are separate?