Mage Rework Feedback Thread

[main granite]

"Potential" of hitting high against nothing? It means nothing

[crisp trout]

Or beos that dodge n block everything lmao

[main granite]

Like, look at this

[vestal garnet]

Al 5 vs al 70

[main granite]

Glass cannons...

[vestal garnet]

Im sorry thats an insane amount of damage for anyone against anyone with a non chakram/rs2 😂

I dont know what to tell you guys

[main granite]

Why not show me a screenshot of Ultima against a blighted raid and all buffs then

[vestal garnet]

Maybe thats the issue

[main granite]

"Whoa hitting damage limit. Insane amount of damage!"

[vestal garnet]

Stop forcing ultima

[crisp trout]

I don't use ultima.

[vestal garnet]

^ 👍

[crisp trout]

And hits are lackluster or easily made moot by turn 2 in comparison to others with no survivability on the pvp side. Raiding no ultima is purely because of AL

[storm viper]

We, the spellcasters, were explicitly told Ultima is supposed to be the most powerful spell...

That's why it didn't work with Weaved Elements (presumably) and also why the Omniflask won't be getting any stronger.

[vestal garnet]

How is the survivability of glass heretic any different than glass dursa?

[vestal garnet]

There's so much other good stuff that got added

Sigil flask for example

Magic scythe has always been good

[main granite]

You were using ultima as your "look what I can do turn 1"

[storm viper]

Since auto-counter is out the window soon, I can only argue that offensively, Gursa can guarantee a kill via Collateral Damage and never let the opponent attack.

We have nothing like that unless we land a debuff but any form of recovery that's higher than DOT damage on the Second Chancers let's them get their hit in (the one thing we can't replicate here--taking a hit)

They also have tons of HP and will soon have higher Dex, which they already have over Heretic if I'm not mistaken

[main granite]

We can compare scythe/chakram damage to other classes, and it's comparable

But they get to have more survivability

[crisp trout]

D.ursa is never glass 😂. Next time I hit the better local deity with 140 less al I will show you him absolutely tanking me. Above is the other local d.ursa

I have to go full blown glass/sequencer to 1 shot and he immediately counters me and drops me if I don't second chance

[storm viper]

Oops, wrong Ursa. My bad

That bit about Dex still applies though (being higher, not the increase)

[vestal garnet]

I did just as much with magic scythe

[vestal garnet]

Youre showing dursa Bof thats glass

[main granite]

Yes, a full glass cannon build vs something with no defense

Dursa Bof gets to have ward

[vestal garnet]

How does dursa bof get ward

Where heretic doesnt

You need starting ward turns either way

Heretic can be built better into hp ward

And both can one shot each other

[main granite]

How much ward

Building heretic into hp and ward = not enough damage

[vestal garnet]

What does not enough damage mean

Im hitting 155k on turn 1 at AL5 in full glass

[main granite]

Means less damage than other classes lol

[vestal garnet]

Surely taking some off the top end is not gonna matter

And again

[main granite]

Give it a try

[vestal garnet]

Turn 2 heretic can hit like a truck

In addition to doing more than enough turn 1

[main granite]

There is no turn 2 heretic in 99% of scenarios

[vestal garnet]

In 100% of non pvp there is

[main granite]

Why does that matter

We are talking about pvp

Stop shifting goalposts lol

[vestal garnet]

Im trying to understand your argument but all you're doing is trying to rebuke mine. This isn't going to go where you want it to. Im asking you to prove to me what the issue is where most people see none. If you dont want to have that discussion ill happily get back to work 😅

Probably best that I dont continue to engage here as it's not going anywhere

[main granite]

We have voiced our concerns and you came in trying to disprove us.

Not the other way around

I'm trying to show you what we mean

If heretic does not build glass cannon, heretic deals less damage than other classes

While other classes get to have more ward and more survivability

[storm viper]

If we build for HP/survival, then we're not guaranteed the crits where all of our damage really comes from.

And then our defenses are still lower than most and that's not changing. The only other class in the same boat as us (barring Elysians) is Realmshifter, who often gets to act several times in a row and there's absolutely nothing we can do about that.

[crisp trout]

Yeah, bof gilga was total glass too 🙄

[main granite]

Nobody builds as glass cannon-y as heretics do because they already have enough damage to compete

[atomic cypress]

Realm does

[main granite]

Yeah realmy is fair

But the pvp allstar RSD gets ward at least

[atomic cypress]

I think the problem here is that SS is overtuned, and that's true regardless of the class using it

Gilga/diety just allow it to go an extra mile, while sitting behind several hundred thousand ward

[main granite]

In general Heretic gets way less survivability options

Our glass cannon builds hit hard but are vastly outshined by ss

[atomic cypress]

Does it?

It has:
Steadfast
Second chance
40% damage reduction whole channeling

That's more than summoner, beo, and base realm

[main granite]

Steadfast and second chance are almost evergreen, but take a peek at heretic's stats and consider 0 access to warrior gear

[atomic cypress]

No no no, we aren't going to discount steadfast and second chance when they were being used as evidence for tankiness and how steadfast 2->1 was a detriment

[main granite]

Don't get me wrong, it helps

Heretic has a bunch of soft survivability, but no backbone

[lime leaf]

I did 17 matches in arena and won 10 of them. Seems fair

[main granite]

Which is "fine" but leaves us without a lot of tank potential

[storm viper]

That 40% damage reduction is alright in non-Anguish PvE but it just gets me killed in PvP. I assume it's based on our Def/Res which already isn't much to begin with.

There also aren't many multi-turn spells that can actually penetrate other than Celestial Arrow and Ultima II since ASG got the Fey Disasters nerfed.

Annwn Fury can't crit and all the other multi-turn spells perform poorly. No version of Ara Vesta is multi-turn anymore, either (which is...fine, I think).

[lime leaf]

Idk what the arena fights prove but our complaining isnt going to do anything unless the numbers back it up

[atomic cypress]

So if the issue is backbone, what does it lack compared to other classes? Ward and def/res values?

[storm viper]

Can't really replicate being unable to take a hit.

The few times I did get hit in my vids, I mostly survived because of Second Chance. And sometimes they got their proc too so it didn't matter.

The only time I can dish out high damage while shrugging it off in return is with a SS/laptop build...so yeah, maybe this is just a SS problem.

But it's sounding like that problem isn't really getting fixed.

[main granite]

No warrior gear, worse def/res/hp than most, a reliance on m2 for most content

[vestal garnet]

This i can absolutely get behind

[main granite]

I think we all agree SS is an issue. The experience us heretics have is that we deal less damage than ss while being paper thin; hard to know what the meta will look like if ss is out of the picture

There's not a lot of incentive to be anything other than glass cannon most of the time, because we die anyway

[crisp trout]

Here. Peep the heretic with 32 al vs my 10 on a pretty garbage whipped up build

[main granite]

At high ALs you get more mileage out of being more tanky of course

[crisp trout]

10 al

Still haven't lost a fight

Prom hands in the bow. No selene

Should have trev charms too

[storm viper]

This bit about M2 is kind of important too but never really addressed.

I mentioned before that we don't have anything like Hybrid Monster, AL-boosted summons/followers that tear through defenses, or access to a proper SS build.

I'm not sure what the Iconoclast bonus is but it doesn't seem to compare to Bastille, Resurgence, Valhallan Dissonance or Deity's redline.

So all that damage we do can be zero'd out rather easily since we have to use Snotra to overcome high defenses.

[vestal garnet]

Im not even using a cele staff here

[vestal garnet]

No cele staff and actually have starting ward turns

5 AL

[crisp trout]

Show the stats

[vestal garnet]

If I had a 2h cele staff id use it

[crisp trout]

Andddd less def/res

[vestal garnet]

Feel free to run that for me if you have it

[vestal garnet]

More res*

Less ALs

Not significantly less def

[crisp trout]

Oh I looked at dex on yours mb. Yeah, barely. So an all around tank vs a class that can only stack res in a world of melee dominating

Ecto puts you to sleep and is countered by anything imbued so I don't wanna hear that argument lol

[atomic cypress]

In reference to the base stats being low, heretic is actually in a pretty good spot

[vestal garnet]

Thanks for this

Was just looking for it

Pretty sure its a bit different now though

[main granite]

Are you considering GS as a baseline? Lol

[vestal garnet]

But you get the idea

[storm viper]

Thanks! I mentioned base stats in reference to Iconoclast vs other similar passives.

I don't know how they all actually scale (they don't seem to be 1:1 as in 1% to stats per % displayed for the passive), so I'm not even sure my mentioning this matters or not.

Does anyone have the numbers for the passives, too?

[crisp trout]

Remove imbuements effecting ectoplasm and heretic could be in a better spot

Still won't tank a 1m ss hit, but better.

[atomic cypress]

It has higher base ward on all 3 celestial than everything except diety and BeoH

A higher main stat (mag) than anything other than base realm (atk)

Def/res aren't great, but realm and GS are still worse overall

[lime leaf]

Which parallels the lowest occurences in global 100.. funny coincidence

1. Deity– 28 occurrences
2. Heretic – 20 occurrences
3. Beowulf – 19 occurrences
4. Gilgamesh – 13 occurrences
5. Grand Summoner – 9 occurrences
6. Realm Shifter – 9 occurrences
7. Arcanic – 1 occurrence

[atomic cypress]

Warrior gear is a fair problem, but the highest ward chest and shield in the game are classless, and corvus has access to the thief hyperion gear that is cracked

[main granite]

Our main damage spec (sequencer) negates the ward advantage

[crisp trout]

Corvus is bad with crit poise in the pvp world.

[main granite]

Meanwhile BoF is an incredible spec at most AL

[storm viper]

Horvus doesn't have Mana Rush or Omnimancy so you just need to whack it once hard enough and that's that.

I'll concede that Realmshifter has the same problem in that regard but they have so much more going for them offensively.

[vestal garnet]

Crit poise isnt a pvp ability

[crisp trout]

And corvus passive was. It was better.

[main granite]

It is in fact an ability in pvp

[crisp trout]

My point about corvus yesterday

[vestal garnet]

Status duration? I thought we were saying nothing past turn 2 matters

[crisp trout]

Made it an endless class. Woohoo fun

I can build to stop ppl defensively

[main granite]

Wrecked hates crit poise maintaining debuffs

[crisp trout]

Doesn't mean im hitting hard.

They will counterattack every hit tho when its a crit

[storm viper]

Were the players in the global 100 all using their actual main class / was the game displaying that when this data was gathered?

[atomic cypress]

And BoF negates defense, which is why realm gets bodied by chakram/ss when we build into it

[crisp trout]

No way of knowing that. I was just on gilga but im a heretic

Kevo is playing heretic for a month

[lime leaf]

Not sure, not only do i not most of those players, but to me 90 al is a lot but to them it could be an alt xd

I also didnt check every single one

[atomic cypress]

I'm not trying to invalidate complaints here, but it feels a lot like heretic has the same pvp* problems that everybody other than SS spamming gilga/diety has

[lime leaf]

Since it was for my ease of mind

[main granite]

Yes, but ward is generally speaking a much better defensive stat than def or res. And heretics have neither

[crisp trout]

I can slow SS better than other things, but I cant deal any damage in return. And they will still be offing me in a couple turns

It's hit and die or turtle which isn't ideal anymore.

[main granite]

No defense stat, and sequencer negates ward

[lime leaf]

All i know is that im happy with hara ^_^

[vestal garnet]

Same tbf

[atomic cypress]

Totally agree. But my Dorado pvp set can be mirrored 1:1 by heretic (minus celestial bow), and you'll have more ward than I will

[main granite]

More defense? Sure

Chakram specifically is great against rsd

10% fixed miss, hits defense

[atomic cypress]

More ward, not more def

[main granite]

Point is that heretic building for damage = no ward, no defense

Oh

[vestal garnet]

Thats the same as all other classes remove ss3

[main granite]

Because of base stats? That doesn't mean much

[lime leaf]

Its like the tank top lane meta in lol

[atomic cypress]

And, because yall have said this, if turn 2 doesn't matter and Ultima doesn't work, why run sequencer at all?

[main granite]

That wouldn't be a great build for heretic overall, would be good against rsd lol

[main granite]

Dual wielding = more damage, sequencer additionally has a 15% weapon power stat

You can also run celestial arrow

[vestal garnet]

Dual wield with a 40% crit amity instead

[main granite]

You could do that too

Either way, dual wielding is how we get damage

We need as much m1 as we can get

[storm viper]

That's what I was using in my vids above...

[main granite]

Maybe you guys take bof for granted but we don't have a lot of stats lol

6k magic in my pvp build at my AL is pretty solid

Melee classes get like 10k+

[atomic cypress]

There has to be a way to get mag stat without dual wielding. Every other event has gear that is jacked with +mag

[main granite]

Like what

[atomic cypress]

Aren't sky boots like 400 mag on their own without adorns?

[main granite]

Fallen sky shoes? Arisen aaru hood?

Yeah but you need adorns for crit

[storm viper]

M1 I didn't go for since I wasn't going to readorn for the recording.

I know we can get extremely high Mag thanks to Arisen Aaru Hood, Fallen Sky Shoes, and Heretic Robe. Cool.

We miss, we die. They survive, we die. Those aren't particularly unique issues but they feel much more common for magic users and I'm including the only other "pure" caster here: Grand Summoner (and even THEY get Celestial Axe access and a built-in Ultima booster lol)

[atomic cypress]

And? Everybody that crits does

That's why I said without adorns

[main granite]

You can get like an extra 1k mag from your armor, sure. But we get most of our damage from prom hands or sequencer spec

[atomic cypress]

So run a two hand celestial with trev charms on oracle

[main granite]

Yeah that gives more mag for sure

[vestal garnet]

That's pretty much what ive been suggesting with my qat staff just dont have a cele 2h staff

[main granite]

Here's a not so glassy build

[vestal garnet]

Totally agreed. Its easier to get magic from gear than attk

[main granite]

Still pretty glass cannon

Bc of the mag focused gear

I could swap the headpiece for more mag

[vestal garnet]

You can also go oracle now and use 2x 40% crits

[atomic cypress]

I'd say swap the chest for pumpkinless

[main granite]

Yup forgot to mention that

I don't think pumpkinless is more mag, lemme see

[atomic cypress]

It's not, but I don't think you need more

[vestal garnet]

Its not but its more HP / ward and therefore survivability

[storm viper]

Here's all my highest Mag gear + Sequencer (avoiding Arisen Rings, though the lower Def would hardly matter when I'm hit, I guess)

I can get more crit were I to change adorns and that staff has Selene Hands so

[vestal garnet]

Selene hands make a big difference

And the crit difference

[feral token]

Also dex, which is pretty useful

[storm viper]

This is two-hand, all prom hands

Will I kill with either? Sure, provided none of the defensive passives proc for the opponent.

I am not surviving any attacks though haha

To say nothing about actually landing a spell

[atomic cypress]

If you swap out the chest and head for hp/ward pieces, can you not still kill?

[main granite]

Let's also keep in mind that 2h were recently buffed with ward

[storm viper]

I can't say that I've tested this.

To make it a 100% honest attempt, I'd need to readorn some very expensive stuff to get high enough crit to check... But I can make do with the way my gear is currently and see how that goes.

[main granite]

Here's that build with a ward adorn pumpkinless

[atomic cypress]

That's really not bad for AL 39 😅

[main granite]

Have some high% gear

[atomic cypress]

This is my 114 AL Dorado setup

I very notably don't have 100% crit here

[main granite]

Why not

And why is your defense so high

[atomic cypress]

Cause this is what I've found to work best

HS3 still crits for 100k+, and the extra health/ward i get from not throwing pinions in let me get into resurgence more often against folk like wrecked

[main granite]

Generally speaking heretics have had to maximize offense since defensive is poor at lower ALs

Having more ward on 2h helped make 2h builds viable

[atomic cypress]

So can you kill things with that build?

[storm viper]

100% honesty as in aiming for the highest crit I can while keeping Mag high in order to fulfill what's being asked, not necessarily getting my crit to 100%.

Point taken, either way.

[atomic cypress]

Noting that corvus has identity problems (both versions), I think that once SS isn't the divine justice of the orna gods, heretic PvP will be comparable to most classes

I personally hate seeing wrecked in my area because I go from thoughtless cruising to having to pay attention and actually swap gear around

So I know it isn't impossible 😛

[main granite]

60-70k crits at similar/no AL seems average

Seems comparable with other classes as I had mentioned before. A little better survivability for sure compared to full glass

A big part of the issue for us has definitely always been essentially no access to SS

means we can't compete in the arms race

[storm viper]

#1343998744961745050 message

You are actually one of the examples I was trying to show--second battle in the vid. Although I am using Hara and not Horvus.

Didn't hit you anyway lol. But battling against AI doesn't produce helpful examples, as most of the other fights show (like that first fight against Gilga Herc; They didn't attack back after Second Chance).

[unreal flume]

If we are looking at it this way, the right thing should be for deity to have less def than gilga and less res than herege, in extreme cases DAra would have the same Res as Herege and a much lower Def than the current one, close to herege and DUrsa having the same Def as gilga but having a much lower Res than the current one.

Personally I don't see much value in the Heretic's Res, as we already have Omnimancy for survival against magical enemies.

[vestal garnet]

This exactly

Seconded

Ty Bwubble

[atomic cypress]

The damage is fairly comparable between the two, so at least for the Dorado match up its the dex advantage that's a problem

If you ran the two handed set up on oracle, I'd expect the damage to stay the same (or maybe even a tad higher outside of double cast) but then I'm not 1 tapping you

[whole lion]

Yes, thats the whole point. Deity being balanced defensively, and not tankier than every other class in their respective specialties

[crisp trout]

Ss will be the divine ruler for another 8+ months most likely

[storm viper]

Fair enough. Although--and this is a "me" issue due to amity availability--I would've needed to spend turn 1 to use WoO first with the 2H build since I don't have +40% crit + Ward Start on Regulus.

I can't predict that outcome but I'm going to guess it still wouldn't be in my favor. But again, this specific example may not be a viable point for this discussion overall.

Although needing to set up, whether to try surviving if we fail to kill or for higher damage, is kind of an issue for Heretic. We have no way of having both without using a turn, even with Ward Start (which just gives RS more damage on their attacks because of Saboteur).

[main granite]

The only heretic that has access to any kind of ward start gear is horvus with hyperion boots I believe

[lime leaf]

What if a flask that negates second chance or smth on corvus

Rs has the moving twice thing going on

[lusty nimbus]

Amities and Cele Augments offer ward start too though?

[main granite]

Ward start gear

Yes we can use an amity

[storm viper]

Those are fair points. Can't argue against amities at all other than needing insane luck/extensive networking but 1 turn of Ward Start per Themis Heart isn't the greatest... Also means losing either +90 Att/Mag & 15% Hybrid Damage or +8 Crit and additional crit damage.

Or losing guaranteed Quickcast

[astral moth]

My 2c : Verse IV is also problematic since it can get quite high turn 1 damage and it is not possible to resist it. Impossible actually.
SS at least can be resistes or even immuned with some luck (if they enchant their weapon)

[atomic cypress]

I don't know if the pet is a free slot, but Steward golemn and stonewarg should pretty much always give a ward turn

[main granite]

That won't help turn 1 defense of course

[atomic cypress]

No but it helps if a ward turn amity isn't available

On offense that is

[main granite]

For defense I always end up sacrificing the amity for my ward start/parapet

[storm viper]

Would help more if we found BB1+Crit, at least. Then go with Steward Golem/Pegasus or whatever else gives Ward Start on BB1.

[atomic cypress]

Yeah I was about to say that ^

[vestal garnet]

Selene hands being the primary culprit behind that

[storm viper]

Amities are very important wild cards, but that's also the problem with them haha

[main granite]

We had one a few weeks ago at the chronic party lol

[atomic cypress]

(Shameless plug for orna legends, where these amities have been found)

[astral moth]

Probably! Not entirely sure

[crisp trout]

Even with starting ward you can get melted. I'm usually running cataphract and get melted 🫠

And that's 173 AL. Most players aren't there

[storm viper]

Needing to network like that to complete a build is... Not on-topic, so I won't go there. But I won't argue against the possibilities that amities can provide, either.

[atomic cypress]

(I agree with the unspoken stance fwiw, but it is an whole other can of worms)

[storm viper]

But starting ward is actually very detrimental when faced against base RS, at least. Kinda screwed either way if I don't act and kill on turn 1, in that scenario.

[atomic cypress]

It'll still help - the bug where ward damage carried over extra isn't around anymore

[storm viper]

In live or beta? My suggestion didn't seem very popular.

[atomic cypress]

Live for a while now

[storm viper]

Hmm

[atomic cypress]

If you have 40k health and 75k ward
And base realm hits for 60k
Your ward is gone, but you aren't dead

[main granite]

Did that ever happen

[atomic cypress]

Yes, years ago lol

[astral moth]

Can confirm

[main granite]

That wasn't a bug tho

[astral moth]

Not really willing to dig through change logs to prove it, but it was described as a bug fix by NF when it was changed

[storm viper]

My suggestion was a suggestion, not a bug report

[main granite]

Yeah we are talking about something else

[astral moth]

Ah, sorry. My bad.

So the "top level" conversation right now is "who other than RS and Hera can deal more damage turn 1", right?

[main granite]

🤷‍♂️

[astral moth]

And apparently we are excluding SS from the conversation, as well as anything that could be explained by selene hands?

[storm viper]

It kinda shifted that way...

What we actually strayed from was Heretic's turn 1 damage output while retaining some semblance of survivability vs. the ability to do so with other classes.

[astral moth]

I think it was already said, but asking for proof here is unlikely to yield many results.
I for one don't really have optimal non-mage gear

Ah, I see. And I imagine it was already said that our tools are basically to have more HP or dex?

[storm viper]

And yeah, my vids in the arena with and without ALs aren't very good examples because that's difficult to replicate

[main granite]

There is a good possibility that we can rely on 2h builds for more survivability, and haven't adjusted

[astral moth]

Also also: is "proof" even useful here? We can only make educated guesses but NF has the ability to actually study the issue in a statistically meaningful way. From what Odie has said, an arbitrary number of battles can be simulated to create real average damage values for builds.

[lime leaf]

Yeah^^

i think its likely balanced

[astral moth]

So perhaps it is useful to say that there is an expectation that Heretic should be able to reach higher/highest damage thresholds than the average for other classes because it is observably true the class is squishy, and Odie has confirmed in several ocassions this is by design.

If the counter point is that this is only not true because of issues with SS and Selene Hands, fine. It is not a satisfactory answer because we are still playing the game where the class' core promise is not fulfilled

And that feels bad

[crisp trout]

I said multiple times above a celestial 2h and pumpkinless is our best survival build, but it's not going to save a lower AL heretic. I'm 173 AL and get dropped like a rock still

[astral moth]

96k HP is super cool

You should try that ectoplasm DB build I have mentioned

Annoy them to death XD

[crisp trout]

Here's a cata version

Ecto no longer works. Every player I fight knows you can imbue a weapon and negate it while you sleep yourself

[storm viper]

This also means that the 2H patch was more meaningful for Heretic because a lot of the changes weren't (and in some cases, still aren't) helping early T10 or high AL mages.

There have been improvements, though. But mages are definitely still feeling like something isn't right.

[astral moth]

They'd be risking omnimancy procs though, right? I would take those odds

[crisp trout]

If ecto wasn't negated by imbued weapons, heretic could be in an OK spot

[storm viper]

Well that's when Omnimancy comes in!

-# sorry Horvus

[crisp trout]

I watch the reports... maybe we should bring rawr in here when I tried to rely on omnimancy

20+ territories in minutes compared to the usual 5 or so 😂

[astral moth]

Hahaha

Fair enough. Just theory crafting here. Clearly you've done the work

Or maybe you bring a dragon book and one elemental immunity thingie 🤔

I've done fire immunity accessory and 80% dragon resist amity before to mess with cookie-cutter GS builds hahaha

[crisp trout]

A book I haven't tried. But I have a parapet/80% fire resist amity I like

[storm viper]

Does the immunity T.Buff actually do anything against Dragonbreath/Omnimancy?

It seems like only amity effects and Rhada Souls can do anything against those attacks (the non-physical Omnimancy attacks, at least).

[astral moth]

I don't believe they affect omnimancy.

Are people really using dragon breath?

Or do you mean from ancient dragon?

[storm viper]

Would be a neat niche for those needlessly 2-turn, currently unhelpful spells.

Sure that would be detrimental to us overall but might allow some room for a boost--to Efficacious, perhaps?--if there's an additional way to defend against Omnimancy, right...? 😅

[storm viper]

Both fall under Omnimancy. I don't think anyone uses it themselves, though.

[feral token]

Where is that from?

Was just checking the dex stat of the GS celestials and they are off there

[main granite]

It's outdated data

But it's not too much different I don't think

[feral token]

I believe GSH has always had more dex than base and GSA

And I just checked and yeah, there's a big difference between them

That's why I was confused

So just wondering if there could be any other mistakes

Also the att, looks like

[lusty nimbus]

So SS aside, is the issue I see that Corvus doesn't provide a more defensive roll viva la Dorado does for Realmshifter?

[main granite]

This was from heretic patch beta time

Before heretic celestials got tweaked

This is what was posted above, let's see differences

Yeah the first chart above is more up to date

[storm viper]

Someone with more experience as Horvus, both prior and patched versions, would be better to hear from but it's sounding like Horvus doesn't feel useful beyond its Endless niche and Crit Poise is not enjoyable (and wasn't even desired by Realmshifters, apparently).

It lost effectiveness in PvP, it is short 1 ability and missing 2 class/Omnimancy-related abilities (Omnimancy itself and Efficacious), and lost Mana Rush and Life Siphon as well.

Our own patch gave other Heretics an additional tool to bypass Mystic Feather and the Steadfast downgrade makes Horvus more susceptible to DOT debuffs, even if it's "only" -10 Status Protection.

Beyond that, I would refer to statements from Wrecked earlier today, at least.

The glass cannon thing was about Heretic overall but I suppose everyone was beating the horse to death all over again there.

[lime leaf]

Good summary

Xd

[lusty nimbus]

So to that effect - sticking with the framework that is there:
-Iconoclast
-Steadfast
-Mystic Feather
-Flasks
-Access to Thief Gear

Would a more defensive approach:
+HP
+Dex
Maybe -some Def/Res

or

A more flaired approach:
-New Passive: "Thief Weapons and Armor and attached Adornments grant magic instead of attack"

or

A simple approach:
+Accuracy/Dex
+/- changes to mystic feather
Crit Poise 3% -> 2%

Be something that would address the issues??

[left coyote]

Yes the weapons one

[storm viper]

Well, going with what's only listed here...

I guess the attack→magic weapon thing is nice? 🤷🏾‍♂️

Feels like that would be locking Horvus out of any possible Hybrid builds, though. And it's kind of the only mage that can attempt that properly since Att comes on some thief gear.

Maybe too niche to matter, though.

[lime leaf]

Idek what niche corvus is supposed to fill xd

[lusty nimbus]

If hybrid-mage is what people are after, I'd point to BeoH and/or Deity 🤷‍♂️

I really don't think that seeking to make classes similar is a great idea 😬

[lime leaf]

I thought endless but seems most veterans do not like that idea for some reason

[lusty nimbus]

I'll push on this and say some. Mobile, Konq and many other Heretics aren't in here at the moment

[lime leaf]

Fair enough

The few are very loud xd

Id like to see some heretics on the endless leaderboard in ol discord xd

[storm viper]

That's not exactly what that does, in my opinion. But I am just 1 person.

It has interesting implications that only Horvus would be capable of if it had Efficacious. Alas, that was not on the menu.

[lime leaf]

Theres every other class

[spiral spindle]

Maybe not. Arena affects penetration. M1 increases directly with turn count in arena (as I’m sure you’re aware, lol). That’s why Cade Labs will only collect arena data from turn 1 of a match when trying to identify skill parameters.

Though, in all honesty, it probably doesn’t matter here as long as all the data is collected under the same conditions.

It matters if you’re trying to test something with low base M1

[main granite]

Some changes:

• 1️⃣ Crit poise needs to only apply to positive effects, and should be changed to 2% instead of 3% fade rate
• 2️⃣ Replace mystic feather with something else thiefy
• 3️⃣ Or give corvus a new ability that synergizes with MF
• 4️⃣ Give Corvus same mag as base heretic (currently 0.9x)

Qol needed:

• We should be able to turn Manaseep off without requiring a full flask charge
• Manaseep should not fade when leaving battle. It should fade when starting a new floor as a non-Omnimancy class
• We should be able to toggle individual flasks off in each separate loadout tab, just like selecting your spells. I don't want to be forced to bring in every available flask everywhere, leaving me more vulnerable to confusion, misclicks, and non-live AI misuse

Random niche idea I had previously: new infusion spell that converted one manaflask to bloodflask, and another spell that did the opposite. Learned at some earlier tier, useful for customizing flasks in longer content

[crisp trout]

I liked corvus being the niche build class. Obviously we're not the best at it, but there's a reason it got access to thief gear. I think that paired with efficacious could create some very fun builds that people won't expect. Maybe not as beneficial on the PvE front besides current cs/ss build

[dim sluice]

I don’t like the lack of evidence for this discussion from the heretic side.

[crisp trout]

Ignore all the videos and screenshots posted or what? Lol

[dim sluice]

Wait. lol. I thought I was close to the end 😂

Thought the S2 convo was just happening

Jeez. That was 5 hours ago. Sorry 🥲🤣

However. I don’t see any videos. After the update, I honestly don’t see the huge difference there used to be. SS is still too strong and so is Selene hands. But other than that, I think heretic has more than catches up to the field

[main granite]

There are videos above, and the field is certainly more level

Especially shoring up some weaknesses like manaray for dex

[dim sluice]

I should’ve been more specific. About the damage of heretic still being underwhelming. I seriously think that there is no way that can be true. (Exception for SS and Selene hands).

In the topic of Corvus, I think mystic feather is important. It is the only defensive ability it has, but it’s also very very underwhelming. Efficacious…meh. Don’t care too much about it being added. But I’m not against it either.

I’m someone that prefers small, accurate changes. I don’t like big, dramatic overhauls. Usually, at least the way I play, a small change can go a long long way. And if anyone can do it, everyone else can.

[lime leaf]

Agree with small change

And something tells me the dev team would say the same

[crisp trout]

No reason selene hands couldn't be touched on before the official augment balance. Prom hands got a nerf from 12% to 8% pretty quick.

15% to 10%

Probably still op but that's a quick easy change. I mean a titan augment rework was mentioned what, 2 yrs ago now..? Or close to it

[main granite]

I don't think anyone was saying heretic's damage potential is lacking. It is outshined by ss/selene hands of course, but the main gripe is that it does not feel like we do more damage relative to our survivability. Other classes get to hit just as hard and be tankier

I think this is a fair feeling, though it may be skewed by ss

And it may be that we heretics will just need to adjust builds to match the new meta if/when ss is nerfed. As it stands, we sacrifice everything just to be tanked and outdamaged by ss

[dim sluice]

Yeah. Sadly I don’t think ss and Selene hands are fair points of comparison. I know. And y’all know I hate both of them. Absolutely broken. But if we compare it to everything else, we’re doing pretty good. Verse, rend, realm strikes. Be a tank and hit hard? I’d wish. But…something tells me the 42% def pierce on heretic is probably going to be strong.

[main granite]

42% def pierce?

[dim sluice]

Wonder if other classes will get to use that. Tbh I think it should be a heretic only thing. 🤷‍♂️

[crisp trout]

So I can stop/slow ss even without ecto. If I can do it anyone can. C'mon that's not a valid argument in orna lol. Heretic counterattack spam was easy to avoid but it was changed. Now the tankiest classes can do it. Gilga, beo, and RSD

[dim sluice]

Lol. Don’t get me started on counter attack. I never liked that nerf. Especially having it nerfed with ss and Selene hands still running rampant. But I do understand the nerf…I guess?

But I do think it’s a great argument. If one person can do it, everyone can (without influence from ALs). Call it trauma from being in Alpine. If Odie gives them an inch, they’ll take a whole mile.

[crisp trout]

Well it was only applied to heretic. I run across very high AL players spamming counterattack on their beos and gilgas. RS can do it but not as common

[dim sluice]

I’ve never seen one lol

[crisp trout]

Our Ai has been worse than other classes since that change tbh

You meet oinks?

Hell do it to ya

Lol

I think he's by you

[dim sluice]

Haven’t fought him in a while. Yeah. He’s close

And by while…I mean like 2 years lol

[crisp trout]

I went into one too many fights unprepared when he came to Houston and got spammed by DB from living arch while he casted counter attack lol

Every single turn almost

[lime leaf]

Is this hurricane ham?

[dim sluice]

I went pretty far on a tournament with heretic. For the first time.

I really think it’s in a good place. Or…at least, very close to it. At the bare minimum

[crisp trout]

I have heard heretic is much better in bof now, but bof and settlements/territories are two different worlds

[dim sluice]

Lol.

@bleak niche thoughts?

He’s my main squeeze now 🤩❤️😂

[crisp trout]

It requires a whole different set of adorns lol. If I could turn off notifications in orna I'd be more inclined to participate in bof

And loading up your skills which you don't really want in settlements you know that lol

[dim sluice]

I know what you mean. Obviously being able to get to turn 2 is a huge advantage. Cause heretic is hands down the best turn 2 class in the game PvP wise

[lime leaf]

Sigils?

[dim sluice]

And others

Blood loss is also extremely strong

But I don’t think turn 1 is too bad.

[crisp trout]

Ya"ll might be seeing me up there in the next month 😉

[left coyote]

Yeah really good write up. I really feel like flasks were banged out with not much thought, especially as corvus has 2 the same. Plus diety can customise apex skills already.

[crisp trout]

After a brief discussion in heretic OL, here's a suggestion @main granite wrote up to make flask menuing a little less tedious when you're going to be using the same flask repeatedly #💡│suggestions message

[main granite]

Just to give some points of reference for the earlier discussions. This is my not-glass build but damage is vetween 30-40k

[lime leaf]

Using what skill?

[main granite]

Magic scythe t1

This was with a 40% crit, average for more defensive targets

[lime leaf]

Do you use heretic for endless?

[main granite]

I'd need a crit/ward turns amity to survive these

And it wouldn't be enough to survive ss of course

So even with a crit amity I'm not doing enough damage on these

[lean rampart]

So they brought in clothes for charging flask...
0 def, - resist, + dexterity, +12% charge
😒

[storm viper]

It's on the X version as well, which isn't bad, at least.

I have no defense for Y, though.

[lean rampart]

as remember X version give minus ward, so or minus ward or minus def and res ...
alchemists - suffer! 🤣

[storm viper]

High enough quality gives some Ward and the HP kinda makes up for that being low.

And to be fair, we're the only ones who got a class-specific bonus on the Beguiled gear, even if it's not much. The stats on the gear are universal, not targeted at us.

It's not as much of a mage bonus as any of us may have hoped for, I imagine, but it's something 🤷🏾‍♂️

[lean rampart]

This is more in line with the concept of a glass cannon (to hit quickly and powerfully) before the lack of a ward or defense has time to take its toll. But at the same time, our "tools" are designed to waste time, especially omniflask - spend time charging flasks, then spend time casting omniflasks...

😒

[storm viper]

It's a good thing Omniflask isn't the only flask we have.

If none of them are useful to you, then there's not much I can say to change that. Just have to hope future gear can give us new flasks (like the Dynasty gear giving Gods of Aaru, etc.)

Doesn't really take long to fill them though...1 tri-elemental spell fills 1 Manaflask on turn 1.

Ward Flask Infusion (although risky) gives 2, enough to use Sigil Stormflask as Hara followed by AV3 twice, which will fill up a 3rd flask to repeat Sigil→AV3 for lots of damage, in total.

[main granite]

Flasks have literally only improved heretic gameplay (outside of confusion/AI issues)

[lean rampart]

I just say - flask is time spender concept. You wast time to charge then to use. Yes, it's can helping in some situation but we really need second skill set for it? We need charge flask. For charge effective we need specify spell and gear. This spell's can't crit so we can't use our CD bonus. New charge gears also to specific. Even as identity flask is more alchemists fings... So, i just don't understand the new vision of "alchemist". 🤷 But all of it be saying many time before so nevermind...

[main granite]

You don't need any of that, just use your spells

Your flasks will fill

[lime leaf]

Use ward flask infusion too

[lean rampart]

Yes. I don't nead any of that... 😒

[main granite]

😒

If you don't want to play with flasks then don't

Don't do this

Or this https://youtube.com/shorts/X9Y0-boh_Bg?si=k95LKjFhaTW-pdeh

[lime leaf]

Did you know that heretic was the second most common class in the top 100? After deity

[main granite]

Or this

[lime leaf]

I’m interested in the stats after deity receives a nerf

[lean rampart]

And what? 🧐

[lime leaf]

What do you think I’m trying to imply xd?

[lean rampart]

That someone in the top 100 plays heretics? 🤔

[main granite]

Like 20% of top 100

[lean rampart]

And what? 🧐

[main granite]

It doesn't mean too much IMO but it's a nice stat

Nobody's gonna convince you to like flasks lol

[lean rampart]

statistics of what?

[main granite]

You'd have to try to play with them yourself

[lime leaf]

There’s reasons the top players are playing it is all im saying v:

[lean rampart]

and you can also change your class at any time...
for any situation...
and also top players have a big AL...
What does this tell us? 🤔

[lime leaf]

I’m kinda done with this convo tbh.. :/

[main granite]

You know AL is per class, right

So these top players are choosing to sink their ALs into Heretic

What does this tell us? 🤔

[lean rampart]

That they have time and resources.

[main granite]

...that they use on Heretic

[lime leaf]

Dudes just looking for an argument and i just woke up xd

[lean rampart]

Why shouldn't they if they can?

[lime leaf]

This is the point we’re making

[main granite]

Are you just unwilling to admit the possibility that people enjoy playing Heretic in its current state or what

[lean rampart]

When did I say that?

[main granite]

I'm asking you a question

[lean rampart]

Everyone has their own tastes.

[lime leaf]

If you were just asking how to best play it or trying to have a logical conversation about the class ut would be a different story.. but you’re just playing hard to get and it’s just slightly annoying xd

[main granite]

But you seem bent on denying the idea that top players might want to play the class

[lean rampart]

When did I say that?

all i said is that the number of players in the top 100 is not an indicator

[main granite]

No you didn't say that

You just condescendingly ignored the points being made

[lime leaf]

Did you read a book on how to have debates and decide that responding with a question is the best defense? Bc it seems like that’s all you’re trying to do

Last 8 of like 9 messages were all questions and not clarifying ones xd

Ok peace

[lean rampart]

arguments that prove nothing?
no statistics, no time frame for observation...
How often do these players change class from heretic to another? How long have they been in the game? What percentage of all Heretics in the game is this?
It's like pointing to Bill Gates and saying that everyone can do it.

[main granite]

It's a data point

Just like your distate for flasks is a data point

Nobody claimed it was proof

[lime leaf]

Yeah it’s just a cool stat

lol

It wasn’t meant to rock your whole world bro

[main granite]

Also the meme reply here is "When did I say that?"

[lean rampart]

I'm at work, keeping track of webinar attendance. The highest attendance rates are for webinars where almost no one registered... 8-10 people, but almost 100% attendance.
High result? Yes. But in fact?
There is a lie. There is a big lie. And there are statistics.

[lime leaf]

Statistics are liars yes

And im not being sarcastic

[lean rampart]

The fact that you look at the top 100 is akin to survivorship bias. When the most successful take on the indicator, forgetting about those who could not.

[main granite]

It's still a useful thing to note in general. But none of this matters really - if you don't like flasks, cool

I wouldn't call this survivorship bias lol

[lime leaf]

You really like the scientific method i can tell xd

[shut temple]

i always get triggered by that specific emoji lol

[lime leaf]

Which one xd?

I like this one🫏

[shut temple]

the one that Kaorinell spams xD

😒 this one

[main granite]

I like this one 😏

[lime leaf]

Ah the stinky side eye xd

[lime leaf]

The… sexy side eye?

[main granite]

It's my kappa emote

[left coyote]

I'm sure flasks would have got a better reception if they had a cool name rather than something my Grandma uses to keep tea in

[shut temple]

"Vessels"

"Elemental Jars!"

Draughts!

[left coyote]

Blood vessel

[shut temple]

Blood and Mana Vessel

[left coyote]

Blood vessel, mana artery

[lean rampart]

Unexpected question. Has anyone heard about plans for this spec?

[whole lion]

Jesus H. Christ

[shut temple]

i thought that one was dead already lol

[lean rampart]

I thought so too
but they say it's in beta..

🧐

[left coyote]

Really?

I actually liked weaved element

[lean rampart]

I myself not in the open beta, so today surprised to hear that there are two versions of the spec are there...

#🇷🇺│русский message

[lime leaf]

I remember there being talk about weaved element spec a while ago

[crisp trout]

Then will we get rid of the omni flask and get something better? That was the whole point of it, to fill the WE gap for low heretics

[storm viper]

Last I heard, (Grand) Elementalist was on hold and Weaved Elements would only remain on Spellweaver and Omnimancer. Not sure about HoA, but the spec didn't make it out of the last beta for Orna.

If we kept the elemental "charges" from Weaved Elements, then there could probably be some mechanic there for using them with flasks. Preferably something that happens passively.

Like, Omniflask could go back to consuming 1 flask and instead be more powerful the more of those charges we have when it's used.

Or there could be a flask that converts each charge into a certain temp buff per element when used with another spell.

I had other ideas but most of them would work much better if we chose a flask, then choose a spell to apply it to, and then all effects happen in 1 action. I don't like the turn economy mess that flasks, Apex, and Avidity cause but that's another conversation.

[crisp trout]

That's not a terrible idea. I feel like manaray flask kind of works that way though (gets stronger the more it's used). My first manaray is always weaker than the 2nd or 3rd, with the same buffs and same mana level. At floor 16 I'll hit 140k on mammon with it, on floor 25 in the same dungeon I've hit up to 350k on mammon

[storm viper]

Well I know it gains power the more full the flask is but idk about uses affecting that (not a bad idea, though).

Are you sure it's not the Iconoclast bonus getting higher by the time you're using it again or does your mana remain the same between uses?

[crisp trout]

Yeah, I don't increase my icono at all. By floor 16 I leave it alone, already casted 2 bloodflask and content there for 2 shot gilgas. Always use it when it's 100% too

[storm viper]

Maybe Horvus should get a passive that increases flask effect power/duration with every flask used. It gets the faster charge rate so maybe they can really lean into flask use while Hara has sigils, and base (hopefully) gets more effective Efficacious/elemental play.

[storm viper]

Huh. That's strange. Not sure what it could be, then.

[crisp trout]

I'll record a few dungeons and see just to make sure I'm not missing something lol

[main granite]

Yeah that doesn't sound like its stated behavior

[storm viper]

Haha, sounds good. Let us know. If there's some kind of hidden function like that, it'll be an interesting find.

[spiral spindle]

Which makes me sad.

I don’t care if the spec is bad. It’s tailor-made for me lol.

If it ever comes to live, I will optimize the hecc out of it lol

[spiral spindle]

So, for whatever it’s worth, I’ve noticed the same thing with my non-Flask spells in raids recently. As just one example, if I’m playing Deity my Neutra seems slightly stronger later in the raid. It’s not a huge difference, but like 10% more damage per cast at the end of the raid compared to the beginning-middle, with meaningfully-identical blueline, buffs, etc. Notable because we’d expect the damage to decrease on account of raid scaling.

I didn’t say anything about it, because tbh I thought I had to be misinterpreting something.

[dim sluice]

Lol. Beguiled Y gear? Bad? Yeah right. It’s almost BiS

[main granite]

For what type of content are you planning to use it

[shut temple]

for horde dungeon
i don't feel it's BiS, you get like no defenses, but the dex is good tho, but you'll probably use like Pump armor + pump shoes and MAYBE a Y Hood, the weapon would take out the AoE aspect (unless you go Maji weak AoE i guess) and that takes out dynasty for GMM if you use it of course, and Gods of Aaru if you use the hood xD

so i don't think Y gear is BiS

so that takes out dungeons, tower and monuments xD, your last choice coud be PVP :x or Raids

[minor spade]

is there a reason why blood/manaray cannot get blocked by pets?

any other cannot miss attack can be blocked

[storm viper]

No, they actually can't be blocked.

Fixed accuracy attacks can be (Spiked/Chained Shield, Realmstrikes, etc), but never-miss attacks will always hit. Those are:

• Sands of Aaru
• Perfect Shot
• Bolt IV
• Coup de Grace
• Strikes of Ursa
• Apex spells
• Mana/Blood Ray

[minor spade]

weird, bc i think i have seen sand of aaru being blocked, but i did test this my self and all of the above are indeed immune to missing

[astral moth]

It is pretty good. It is hurt by two things:

• What we know about anguish 2.0 reduces the value of foresight and dexterity quite a bit. This because dex will no longer scale with anguish level.
• Pumpkinless gear exists

On the topic of (Grand) Elementalist: there were a lot of people here that were upset it would be made a spec that other classes coughdeitycough could use, so I think it was left alone to avoid figuring out the optics of it all

[umbral musk]

I know dex scaling will be removed but where do you get the source from with regards to foresight?

[crisp trout]

Manaray has been blocked for me before. Was rather annoyed because I didn't think it could be 😂

[neat stump]

Enemy foresight is based on their dex

[crisp trout]

That was closer to time of release though, so may not be the case anymore. I've ignored it since

[umbral musk]

i see, thanks! TIL something

[crisp trout]

Is this referring to PvE, PvP, or both? I tend to take it as PvP but your playstyle and views on certain aspects of the game seem to have changed quite a bit so now idk lol

[crisp trout]

After watching it more closely, my theory didn't pan out 😆. I guess I was just noticing when it would happen vs the times it didn't

[spiral spindle]

I’d believe this, but if so it’s frustrating because in a real sense Heretic isn’t even the element-specialist class. Heretic is the magic-specialist class. There’s significant overlap there, yes—but not all magic is elemental and not all elemental attacks are magical. The class that’s explicitly called out as being focused on elements is…wait for it…Deity. Even Odie himself has gone out of his way to say that “Omnimancy” isn’t something unique or even core to mages despite being the official name of the classline. (Odie has explicitly said that “Omnimancy” just refers to using elements, so everyone does it—and that this usage is in line with other usages in the game, where it’s common for a term to have broader meaning than some of its applications would suggest.)

[dim sluice]

Definitely for PvP, that’s where I feel it would be a BiS candidate on all 3 slots. But I also think it’ll be very strong on the rest of the content. Funny, I don’t think it’ll be that important on raids.

About Ang 2.0 I don’t know anything about it, so my comments don’t apply to that. Like I’ve been intentionally not reading anything about that

[dim sluice]

Yeah man. They have. The way we used to do PvP has also changed. Except for the 2-3 guys that still want to take old areas even if they get absolutely nothing for them…that play style is basically dead. With counterattack being nerfed, and ss3 still being king, and defenses basically not working, and ALs being out of control, yeah. I take all that into consideration when I’m thinking about PvP builds

And I think they are BiS “candidates”. Pumpkinless, Aaru Robe, heretic robe and others, will still be better in certain scenarios. But having one Y piece, will probably be very important. That is my guess.

[main granite]

Tbh I hope the classline gets rebranded away from being the "Omnimancy" line

It just doesn't make sense now. There is a literal Omnimancer class in there that embodies the concept well enough, there is no reason for the whole line to be tied to this

[spiral spindle]

On that note, I find the progression kind of odd too. The mage line’s class progression is a reasonably-clear story of “falling to the dark side”—even more so since the rework. You start out as a good little apprentice, eventually begin dabbling in nekromancy, and ultimately become a full-blown Dark Mage™️. The addition of Blood magic later in the progression only further hammers home this change.

But with that in mind, the Omnimancer class is in a weird spot. Thematically it’s closer to the beginning of the line, not the end—but it comes after Nekromancer and before Heretic.

[whole lion]

Wait a second... sands cant miss?

[spiral spindle]

No. Which makes it annoying af in PvP lmao.

(Because of when in the year Thronemakers generally happens—combined with when I started playing and when I took my hiatus after hitting t10—I have never participated in a Thronemakers event. And yes, I’m a bit salty about it. )

[feral token]

Nope

It’s the best spell to finish off people who survive at 1 hp after a second chance proc

[left coyote]

Yeah Heretic identity imo is a bit messy and not well thought out

[astral moth]

Dex is what determines turn order for monsters. If dex doesn't scale, whatever monster you outpace at angL0 you will outpace at angL999

[spiral spindle]

Unless they just give monsters Foresight. Which would not be hard to do.

[astral moth]

We can't really know what is and isn't hard. We can't see the source code.

[spiral spindle]

Foresight is simply equal to level * 2 for everyone except summoners. Monsters have levels.

You're technically right, but that doesn't seem hard, since all the required elements are already there

[astral moth]

That makes a lot of assumptions about how monsters work

[spiral spindle]

Now, I'm not sure we want that solution - since it means eg. Amorri would outspeed any non-summoner who isn't running Foresight gear

[astral moth]

If I had a penny for every time someone has told me something should be simple in code, but isn't in my particular code base, I could probably afford a dozen of eggs. They are pricey, you know?

[spiral spindle]

Point taken

[main granite]

Btw - I'm AL41 vs an AL 29 or something

They had like 40khp and barely lived, I was pretty much full glass cannon ultima

BeoH is a good example of a class that tends to outperform Heretic regardless of ss/selene hands. Maybe this is still selene hands but beoh is considered "glass cannon" with the highest base ward in the game...

Stats compared to base heretic

[fickle lake]

i would love a "no crit" playstyle or build thats becomes usable at t10.

[worthy grove]

No crit??? That doesn’t sound at all viable for a mage

[whole lion]

Id love that too, crit is so incredibly meta is hard to steer away from it

[fickle lake]

we have tools to use elemental weakness for example, but the damage output is nothing compared to crit

Another thing is spells like winter wind, any % to get spells like that but for t10?

[coarse chasm]

I would like non crit builds to be a thing, but for that to happen it would have to advantage multiple elements at a time. A buff to just one isn't going to get you there. You will need to really lean in on multi element spells that can't crit, while simultaneously preventing crit enabled spells from using it (fey elemental, seals, Ultima). Even then, I doubt it would scale well enough to make up the difference.

[dim sluice]

There are builds like that. That are borderline good at late game. It is very close to being a reality. As being better than crit, I don’t think it will ever happen unless a massive boost is given to them

[storm viper]

I've been able to make Hara + Sequencer w/Anubis, Beguiled Staff X, and a BB1 amity work in live PvP.

Not sure how well that would do in Conquest but I'm lacking good elemental amities, too.

Celestial Arrow is another one to consider if you have a Holy damage amity (although this one has 25% crit so it can go either way).

[dim sluice]

Yeah. With good elemental amities it would be much stronger. And then elemental amities could be the only one with a triple 30. Obviously hard to get, but possible. And it would absolutely make it very very strong.

[lusty nimbus]

Don't base elements only go up to 20? So triple 20?

Yes the builds work, you just need the gear especially the beguiled polly weapons from this month

[storm viper]

30%

Actually, it seems to be 20% for most and 30% for Arcane and Dragon, only (if the OL amity guide is still accurate).

[spiral spindle]

I got a low-170s Polly X staff. It's not great and it's low as Ornates go, but I may try to make it work.

How does Faction boost work with tri-element spells?

Do they get "full" boost? One-third boost?

Or if the answer is "we don't know," maybe I should just test

HOT TAKE: Training cactus should not have the stats of a Cactus. I cannot test my faction element on it, because it's immune.

It's cute to have a "real" mob as the test dummy, but it interferes with actual testing

Should just be a sandbag

[main granite]

Should get full boost

[lusty nimbus]

It boosts your faction while not taxing the others so it's the 25% boost per stick

[spiral spindle]

Not bad

[dim sluice]

Wow. How didn’t I know this?! That’s wild. I’ve been missing out on a lot then

[crisp trout]

Wish I could remember where I got these. Great for Finesses enchanted epee. Probably wasn't partied up lol

[coarse chasm]

Crit will likely will always be better. Any boost to elemental damage will likely also boost crit damage.

[dim sluice]

That’s true too

[crisp trout]

Crit should always be better. Non crit can be improved

[dim sluice]

Oh Those are really really nice

[crisp trout]

I'll have to check my alt WV party when the time comes and hope they are in there 😆. If so, I don't mind sharing

[coarse chasm]

That would be awesome.

[fickle lake]

The new multielementalist spec (beta) cant be used with the new t10 omni spells, its bugged or im doing something wrong

But i dont see the final double cast

[main granite]

Omnimancy spells don't work with the doublecast, only damage increases

You'd have to deal each element separately

[coarse chasm]

That had unfortunately always been the case.

[vast jasper]

I have been really poor about following mage updates, but regarding Corvus has it been considered to give them 2 manas and 3 bloods as the base setup instead of the same 3 manaflasks/2 bloodflasks?

[main granite]

I'd like that and suggested it, but didn't seem to go anywhere

There are ways of manipulating how many flasks Corvus ends up with though

[vast jasper]

Yeah it just feels like i use 2 bloods for every mana compared to hara for example. Not a huge deal imo because ill just turn them all blood. Just thought that might be a good separator

On update i assumed the flask count WOULD be different between celestial classes which is where my initial thought came from

More so as a good make up for losing its specific passive FoC. More bloods to work with in PvP for example would not increase charge rate, but definitely increase effectiveness. I can see the concern being freely bypassing House Rules at that point though

[shut temple]

besides that, have you guys thought that any of the 3 classes still require something else?

[lusty nimbus]

They all seem pretty set 🤷‍♂️

Manaseep fixes at least for the poor iOS users is the only need

maybe smoothing Efficacious + Crit Poise out somehow is more of a want

Can likely close this thread down

[main granite]

Yeah I'd just like manaseep to not fade when I leave the dungeon and come back as heretic

I can't swap my loadoutor follower in endless, or refresh a boost, or do anything else in-game (or just close the app) without losing manaseep

I'm literally using a missing mana amity instead of manaseep because of it

[crisp trout]

Meanwhile its the only way I can get rid of it without my entire mana refilling before I fill another flask lol. Double edged sword depending on the AL

[neat stump]

If entering with other classes canceled it, you could still get rid of it without using flask again

[crisp trout]

Much easier to back out and jump in vs having to swap classes. Likely coded that way in order to keep other classes from being able to use the flasks since that's when that started occurring

Otherwise I could just back out and go in on another class and manaseep is still going to be there

[main granite]

Yeah canceling manaseep more easily is not a reason to keep this around tbh

It was coded this way to prevent other classes from using it. It would be like coding summons to disappear if you left the dungeon instead of the current functionality where they just despawn on the next floor

Just make it work like summons do and let us turn it off in a reasonable way

[lusty nimbus]

Alternatively make it so we can cast it again to cancel and casting (or just canceling?) Gives a turn?

[crisp trout]

It was setup so you could hit the flask again after hitting it by mistake as long as you stayed on the same floor but that was removed for some reason

[main granite]

Yeah you used to be able to just turn it off with 0 or 25% charge, I forget

That would be fine

[coarse chasm]

So why doesn't Ultima actually have increased flask filling like other multi elemental spells?

[minor spade]

Cuz its not a heretic skill

[main granite]

No lol

[gentle snow]

I would love a t10 winter wind spell, the t9 version with split damage is so bad lol

[main granite]

It's because it would be kinda busted for Ultima to charge as if it were 8 elements. This was tested in beta and you could ultima 2 and easily fill a flask, and infinitely chain repetition flasks

Also, Ultima does charge a little more than single element spells

One element = default 12.5% flask charge, Ultima is 16%

[gentle snow]

correction, unlock winter wind and all aoe split damage spells to base heretic 😄

[gentle snow]

I have the best idea:

---

Heretic. Elemental Spells that hits 1-2 enemies. Cant Crit. Literally a tune down version of the AOE spells unlocked by Maji. It would bring more build diversity, because the only options right now are Qatvanga Despair or Ara Vesta Aoe.

[whole lion]

Theres also the absolute insanity that is windtamer shield (i wish that was dynamic hybrid 🥲 )

[storm viper]

And Storming Tempest fills flasks, too! At the lowest rate, sure, but it fills them nevertheless.

[whole lion]

WHAT

[storm viper]

Just checked again to be sure and yeah, it adds a bit with each use.

[whole lion]

Damn thats hella sweet

[main granite]

That's because it's physical element

Turns out anything with ohysical element charges flasks. Including melee skills like perfect shot

[raven path]

Nefr Heretic ||||

[median frost]

Ara Vestaga is all the AOE we need. Elementalless, crits and if something nasty pops up, Sigil Storm into Vestaga, problem solved.

Is something super nasty pops up, Sigil Storm into Vesta 3

[shut temple]

buff heretic :v

[worthy grove]

When did heretic get aligned Sigil flask…LOVE IT

Paired with ultima and uber damage

[shut temple]

27th

[fickle lake]

Fan n1 of sigil flask 🫡

Good with omnimancy spells

[main granite]

Sigil flask is likely bugged btw

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1378591330460106882

[idle tendon]

I love it, I miss Banishment flask though. Now summoner raids are terrifying again

[worthy grove]

Ara whatever. Hits everyone. They die

[idle tendon]

Yeah I've really gotta get my tower runs going

[median frost]

Towers with Ara are so fast ☺️

[mossy gust]

What build are you running? Not sure if mine is optimized...

[main granite]

Crit celestial, ward flask infusion on easy fights, stormflask+vestaga on the bigger fights

Just nuke everything turn 1

[shut temple]

with AV4? i might have a different Av4 because that spell rarely hits 3 enemies xD

[main granite]

Ara vestaga

[shut temple]

i meant the non-vestaga 1 turn nuke xD

[main granite]

Have you not played with the reworked ara spells?

Vestaga is a 1 turn nuke

[shut temple]

don't you need like... sigils on enemies?, tbh i've only used vestaga when i use sigilflask

[main granite]

Yeah..

😂

[main granite]

That's what I said here

[shut temple]

i know xD, i'm asking for NON-full-nuke xD

how you handle when you're not Vestaga :v

[main granite]

Av3 is the best non-sigil ara spell

Not sure what you're asking otherwise

[median frost]

Ara/Tamer. Will use this the whole run, into End boss too. Omniblasta for flask filling on easy mobs. Vesta4 and Vestaga the rest of the way. Run with Phoenix. Strom Sigil into Vestaga for nasties like Beo

[mossy gust]

Thanks for the reply. I'll have to try it out. I've been running Corvus brilliant lights with moderate success but the damage is somewhat lacking

[storm viper]

I just go with AV4 and use tri-elemental spells to finish off the spares or when there's only 1 enemy.

Hara + DoF w/Oceanus follower is my preference for Towers.

[main granite]

I just do this

[median frost]

ASC51 might also be helping the damage for me with this build. Fresh T10s might be as successful with it.

[main granite]

That's an older video where my build was worse and less efficient. Now I use manaflask infusion asap and have a lot more ward (even though nothing really lives past vestaga)

Ward flask infusion really speeds you up. No need to use a scroll, I just run something df to gf and luck

The only necessary parts of the above are the crit staff/2h, ward start turns in case you miss, and crit chance

[shut temple]

everyone has rift cowl 😛 , why BB1?

[storm viper]

Tower Shard bonus + Arch-Alchemy from Titan Replica

And the less I miss, the better lol. It feels noticeable when I take the cowl off.

[shut temple]

nice

[main granite]

Rift cowl is very solid

Even without the extra accuracy, it's very defensive with 11 slots

Those stats are not something heretics have available very often

[shut temple]

welp... whenever riftfall. comes back again i guess

[main granite]

Yeah I got mega lucky with my 199 lol

[median frost]

Rift Cowl is a new one for me too 🤣 got 34 scrolls, might pop them tonight

[shut temple]

i think i have one in superior or something xD

[north anvil]

Blodloss flask extra turn isnt guaranteed?

[astral moth]

Counterpoint: why are you not vestaga always and forevee? Not running a scroll?

I see above a build with the 2H staff. That's good, too. This is my preference though

The 2nd amity is not filled out because I am running with towerfelled

[versed mountain]

It is, as long as your flask is fully filled

[north anvil]

Hm i guess i just didnt pay attention then

[shut temple]

i'm using Despair for full AoE hit and vestaga when high hp bosses, seems to work for the low floors towers i do, high floors now, that would change so i'm looking for the future :v

[fickle lake]

I made a NECESSARY IMPORTANT suggestion:

#💡│suggestions message

[shut temple]

if it's going to be absolute trash then why suggest it :x

plot twist, change tri-elementals to hit an additional enemy :x

[fickle lake]

because if you suggest something very op they downvote it instantly 🫠

[fickle lake]

This would be extremely useful ngl

Elementalist spec passive: All omnimancer spell that has no crit can hit an additional target

[lusty nimbus]

Tempest Flask: Elemental/Class spell costs are doubled but may hit an additional target

[shut temple]

ohhhh i like that one

[shut temple]

i know, i know

[fickle lake]

Okay, @odi ship it

[fickle lake]

This literally sound useful, no op, good scenario when some crazy player wants to focus on elemental damage, can deal good damage on pair with elemental flask, but no crazy damage like Sigil Ara Vestaga, and cant be used by other classes, 10/10 odi should hire you

[shut temple]

maybe double sounds a bit too crazy no?, the tri spells cost a ton al ready xD not even 10% Manaregen is going to help you :v

[lusty nimbus]

I dunno. 10,000 mana at AL 50 means my Manaseep restores 500 mana a turn lol

AL 100+ could use it for helping them utilize manaseep

[shut temple]

hmmmm

[fickle lake]

Maybe 25% more mana, for a 25% chance to hit another target

And Odie adjust the numbers

The trielemental spells are cool, but right now their only purpose is to fill a manaflask when a enemy has 1 hp 🤣.

I would love to see builds around elemental weakness and magic, we have many pets with BB1 granting % to weakness, and some gear that grants % to weakness.

Im thinking that if some of this mechanic goes live, it would be on a "scroll" , like the Aaru event that grants new spells on equipment, something like this but with this "upgraded" versions of Tri-Elemental spells.

[shut temple]

i like the idea of this flask specifically being added to event items, i think flaskspells being added to specially scrolls is a nice idea to make scrolls interesting

[lusty nimbus]

Whoa there, tiger. Slow down. They're already spooky if you build into them 😅

But as is the AV3 issue you need that second turn to get an alignment or a pet throwing a blight out to really take something out

But I do agree some kind of AoE Flask or addition would make them much more interesting

[lusty nimbus]

On the flipside, I kinda hope Merlin and Treve gear gets an update because with the new BAY stuff, Omega Myrrdin Staff and Robe are kinda.... eh

Treve Shoes/Hood

The staff is already insane

[shut temple]

one can only hope

[fickle lake]

the need to add a scroll to Merlin, is literally the most famous mage

Potential for a good scroll, only pray

[lusty nimbus]

We have good scrolls though more sounds great!

Best Being:
Arisen Morrigan
Macha
Arisen Fairy's
Arisen Witch's

Then not so great:
-Dragon Scroll (good for t8)
-Fey Scroll (needs something)
Every other Scroll below that though they're fine for the tiers they're unlocked at

If I could ask for a Scroll it would be one we would take into Endless so some kind of farming buff for Gold or Orns

Or one that gave new abilities/effects at some price

[main granite]

A scroll that buffed orns would be crazy for endless

Are there any offhands that boost orns?

[lusty nimbus]

I don't think so for Orns. I believe the Clurichaun weapons and the North Stars from Scruug all give Gold bonuses

[slow rose]

Nah, North Star's Luck based, not gold.

[lusty nimbus]

Ah that was it

[unreal flume]

For anyone interested 💪
👉 #1383928612427661453 message

[median frost]

Is anyone running builds using the replica titans? Is there a heretic specific replica titan?

[mossy gust]

I like the oceanus replica while running towers with a BB1 amity. The oceanus rune is a freeze effect and the other skills either stun or freeze. Helps me actually hit enemies.

[main granite]

Dang I should have gotten oceanus

[lusty nimbus]

Yeah Oceanus > Themis > others but Oceanus has been my go to for towers for the exact reason of freeze. Also started trying in Endless and the amount of times he froze enemies after I missed was actually pretty good

[gentle snow]

the other titan runes what effect do they have?

[minor spade]

Eos is blind

Prom is burn

Or bleed

[median frost]

Just bought Oceanus, he's a beast! Not sure how he's AOEing but damn. Very nice upgrade from phoenix

[shut temple]

Oceanus is that good vs Phoenix? damn should've bought him sooner

[median frost]

I mean he casts DC and freezes things. Miss the ward upkeep from phoenix but can easily mitigate that. I'm not saying he's flat out better than phoenix but I think I prefer him. The novelty might wear off. I'll take him into some dungeons and see how he fairs

[whole lion]

Wait a minute oceanus can aoe?

[feral token]

The rune is

[whole lion]

QUE

😱

Im buying this mofo

Aoe freeze thats peak

[median frost]

But he seems to use the seal spell right after it and it hits everyone with the rune

[storm viper]

Beastfelled Shoes can fix this, if you don't have preferred leg gear already! Squeeze in a little bit of +follower act% in the build and you'll forget the bird existed.

[median frost]

Good shout. I run Tamer with Ara for pretty much everything 🙈 probably not the most ideal spec to use but it's served me well

[median frost]

He's also just throwing out random runes on top of his own.
Would be amazing if Titan runes worked with Sigils and the Ara spells. Things would really pop off then

[mossy gust]

That would be a neat interaction

[median frost]

I'm probably the only one but... I miss raiding with weaved elements, especially with this new Dragon boss at the end of towers. I also think locking our class mechanic boosting gear, behind a twice a year event is going to feel bad for people who didn't manage to farm up decent drops. Can we see class mechanic gear drop from other sources?

[main granite]

Manaflasks are still new, they have been adding gear slowly

[median frost]

6 months new 🤣 appart from the new Yelbeghen gear, what other mage mechanic gear has been added? Can we get a list together? And how does it compare to the availability of gear of other class lines?

[mortal sluice]

Yelbeghen: flask power
Apollyon: flask charge

That's the list

[median frost]

Yikes 😬

I've not tried flask power, I was wondering if it adds additional power into say Repetition flask? If you used ultima2 and repFlaskd, would that Ultima2 be +15% more powerful?

[sour horizon]

When I tried it it didnt work on repetition flask

[mossy gust]

Mages stay winning 😎

[main granite]

Ward flask infusion works too for some reason. Pretty cool

[fickle lake]

Waiting for new scrolls that add flask spells ⏳

[median frost]

Really like that idea! Would like to see books be reworked in the same way scrolls were.

[shut temple]

so what helps flask power?, The Rays? and that's it ? xD

omniflask i guess

[main granite]

Ward flask infusion, omniflask

[fickle lake]

Wait for the new flask spells, with the ( I hope ) new flask spells that Odie is gonna give us . its gonna be interesting this gear in that scenario 🫡

[shut temple]

It was so hard go get current flasks tons of balancing and swapping and whatnot, curious what could be accepted

[median frost]

Were we to get say, 10% stats for each currently filled flask during battle, flask power gear could also boost that. Maybe we could get different stats per mana/blood flask filled?

Add in 2 additional spells like: Minor Mana/blood flask infusion > coverts 1 mana/blood flask.

Allowing targeting of specific stat weights per flask type.

Omniflask on Ara seems redundant. Especially when Repetition flask exists and can be used with the likes of Ultima2. Could it be reworked for the celestial class? Full flask consumption for weaved elements style, double cast all elements - OmniFlask2.0

[storm viper]

I like the sound of being able to change 1 flask to another type instead of all of them at once.

If not a spell, then maybe an accessory that converts your last Manaflask into a Bloodflask and another for Bloodflask → Manaflask while equipped when starting content. The Beguiling Grail and Enchanted Chalice or something.

[median frost]

Kind of like a Heretic version of Beo Charm or Ancient Essences.
Blood+mana versions.
Last B flask converts to M flask.
Start battle with +1 filled flask.
-+% mana charge rate.
X% stats increase per filled flask.

Mana Chalice
Blood Grail

[main granite]

It should just be a spell you learn at t6 or something. "Bloodflask Decant" and "Manaflask Decant"

[sour horizon]

has anyone found a good usecase for the yel armor yet?

[lusty nimbus]

If you wear the set and use Wardflask Infusion you get like 3 flasks immediately filled

Also pumps Repitition Flask apparently

[sour horizon]

when I tried it with repetition flask it didnt seem to increase the dmg

[sour horizon]

in what type of content would you use that tho?

[lusty nimbus]

Blades of Finesse, towers at higher anguish on easier fights so I can have AV ready for more dangerous fights, maybe monuments for the same

The shoes and higher floor endless runs might be okay as well for a small Bloodray pump

[sour horizon]

sounds interesting for towers but gear swapping is too much of a hassle for me personally

and for bof, isnt the lack of fs on the armor a problem? How would you use it in a bof build?

[main granite]

Endless. Swap to dara for it maybe

That's my plan but I'd need some ornate gear

[sour horizon]

Not a bad idea

But pet swap endless is already so much swapping

[main granite]

Yeah but this is a swap for 350% flask charge

Would be super useful when you get drained by a chain of zerks. My biggest issue with that is gaining too much mana

I've struggled to find an efficient way to drain my mana after using a bunch of flasks

[median frost]

Just for some examples, these items are easy to find all year round and have class specific mechanic boosts. Currently we have none. Which puts us at a disadvantage. We should have access to similar items all year round.

[umbral musk]

heretic robe 👀

[feral token]

Tbh many non event scrolls give manaflask charge

There’s nothing for manaflask power, though

Accessible all year round

[main granite]

The devs made it clear from the start of the rework that they would be adding flask gear over time

You're asking for something they already said they would do

[median frost]

Yeah but I want it now! 🤣

[median frost]

Ah you're right. I totally forgot about the off hand scroll reworks. My bad.

[umbral musk]

I am of the opinion that mana ray flask need some help.

Especially in pvp defense setting, where the ai has the tendency to use mana ray suboptimally.

I tested in mirror match, the ai use mana ray for some paltry dmg even though there are more dmging spell available and opponent is not low hp or high evasion

[main granite]

Did you test this recently? Because the AI got a few patches soon after launching

[storm viper]

I've noticed this too, and recently. It seems to go for Mana Ray just because it can rather than when it should.

[main granite]

Report it as a bug

[umbral musk]

Yes, tested against my mirror

[pine sundial]

Would it be too op if non attack flasks ignored status effects on use, similar to potions?

[fluid sky]

Has there been any news about manaseep fading on dungeon leave being fixed?

[median frost]

It's a class specific mechanic, it drops when leaving a dungeon so other classes can't use it in say, hard mode endless dungeons.

[fluid sky]

Yes but why if i leave a dungeon because my phone crashes (absolutely random example) and still stay hera wen i re-enter do i have to reapply the buff? Feels like a cheap implementation to me, and it actually matters in some scenarios like deep endless

[main granite]

It is a cheap implementation to avoid abusing it with other classes. I have asked for this fix many times and been rejected. I actually believe Odie thinks we want it to stay even when swapping to another class.

The easy fix is to make it work like summons, disappear only when going to next floor as a different class

[waxen sinew]

Flask Guidelight - Your flasks don't empty out from floor to floor in dungeons.

[main granite]

Flasks already work that way, it's just manaseep that should function the same way. There's no way to abuse manaseep if it disappears on the next floor for non-omnimancy classes

The only argument I've heard against this is "well when I misclick manaseep it's nice to quickly remove it by exiting and reentering the dungeon"

[fluid sky]

i'd let other classes have it if we can get ht on corvus finally . Anyway from your message i think odie doesn't see that as a bug, should i open a bug report to see if that's actually intended?

[main granite]

It is on corvus as of ang2.0 update. Go for it

[crisp trout]

It's nice in general for high AL. Bad for low AL. Not just the misclick in hordes

[fluid sky]

is it? I meant high tenacity btw, don't know if it stands for something else in that content

[main granite]

Oh thought it was a typo for "it" referring to manaseep

[fluid sky]

"it" was referring to manaseep, ht to high tenacity on corvus. Anyway, i'm gonna open that bug report

[waxen sinew]

I'm suggesting that to implement

The easy fix is to make it work like summons

... is to add a passive like I described. "Every class" loses flasks at the end of each floor, except for the mage family that has that passive and doesn't lose it at the end of the floor.

[main granite]

Manaseep isn't a flask

I guess maybe we're just talking about different things, not sure. The flask spell that casts manaseep vs the actual manaseep buff

[waxen sinew]

oh right, the buff. that would be a very particular/strange passive 😅 "Manaseep Guidelight" is probably too weird looking.

[main granite]

Yeah, it doesn't need a whole ability to be fixed; it should just be how the buff works

That's one way to fix it, but probably more coding than making it disappear on other classes

[rotund garden]

Does 44% increase repetition flask? Or is mostly for Blood Ray?

Curious about these bonus getting increased now

[main granite]

Apparently doesn't work with repetition flask

[median frost]

I've just tested this ManaFlask power gear on HAra and it might as well not exist.
Zero effect on:
Storm Sigil Flask
Repetition Flask
Infection Flask
Bloodloss Flask
Manaseep Flask

Its only interactions are with
Mana-ray Flask and OmniFlask, both of which are barely touched outside of PvP or fresh T10 progression.

It's underwhelming and disappointing to have class specific gear be this pointless.

Unless I'm missing something?
Why would anyone run this gear?

[fluid sky]

have you tried wardflask infusion? Yesterday it was boosted by manaflask power

[median frost]

Just tested it there, still interacts with WardFlask Infusion. Which technically is a spell/skill, not an actual Manaflask ability.

Still weak for class mechanic gear

[main granite]

You also didn't mention bloodray flask, which is a strong spell that may be worth building around

It maybe should work with repetition flask, but that would imply you can boost ultima or any other spell by using repetition flask

[buoyant ridge]

Bloodray is the only reason I'm considering using this flask boost stuff anyway

[main granite]

If I get a solid armor piece or two I'll use it for an endless setup

[storm viper]

If we could select from the flask pool, it would add Mana-Surge Flask to the list, which isn't much but it's something.

Built-in AoE with an extra turn chance could be handy but it's stuck on T7 and below for... Identity reasons, I think it was?

It doesn't make the animals or skeletons from Nature-Call or Nekro Flasks any stronger, either.

[median frost]

I was testing it out on Ara. I've not really played much Corvus.

That said if at T10 this gear is only worth perusing for 1 ability - Bloodray flask, only found on 1 celestial class, are we happy with it?

Most other classline mechanic enhancing gear boosts a tonne of their skills and abilities. Whilst Heretic are being shoehorned into boosting just 1 that has any real impact.

[storm viper]

Seeing as I do not like to play Horvus, I'm not too thrilled with the Yelmo gear for mages. Not sure why the Def on it is so low either, considering what the Valhallan/Elysian set looks like.

Only the robe has anything extra going for it but that's a highly contested slot to give up for only 10% more damage on hitting a weakness. I guess it could help Omniflask builds but by the time you can get your hands on this gear, you probably aren't using Omniflask anymore.

[lusty nimbus]

The 10% ele bonus also competes with Quetzal's robe

[storm viper]

Fallen Sky & Yelmogus comparisons:

Other than Omniflask and Bloodflask, maybe someone more creative than me can get a Swash-Blade Horvus build going.

[lusty nimbus]

Those stupid shoes. 500 Quetzal kills and best dropped was a 160 legendary

[storm viper]

Found a 182% pair on the last day but I already have 188%...

[worthy grove]

I,bought my from monument…192%

[golden star]

Imo manaflask power should affect the spell that repetition flask uses. It should make Ultima 1 and 2 hit like trucks after using that flask. With how many maluses it gets hit by the damage eventually tanks and this would bring it back up to a good spot. Even if it's way stronger it would put heretic at also imo it's rightful spot as the raider with kill or be killed gameplay. Heretic has always been about big blue numbers with raids and manaflask power should reflect that.

Should also affect Sigilstorm in some shape or form

[shut temple]

well, you don't get all the sigils even from 100% flask, so it could give the last one, OR an increased multiplier or something, but that could sound a bit too broken for Vestas

[median frost]

We may have just been given the Mage equivalent of Spiked Shield 👀

Testing...

It doesn't crit 😭

[whole lion]

What if you cast it again? How much does the dmg go up?

[median frost]

If it double casts with Sequencer your mana goes to 0

The robe has horrible stats, its very glass cannon

[median frost]

Less mana = less damage. Hit it again and it eats more of your mana. Its better than bloodloss flask by about 10%. One cast gets you to 80% iconoclast

Double cast with sequencer does decent damage in arena

It is zeroing out on folk with around 100ascension levels

Were it to crit, it be a contender for SS3

[whole lion]

Oooh thats neat! I mean may be bad for sequencers but cool concept

[main granite]

Diffuse ward stonks going up

[median frost]

The damage power is nuts

With Maji we can get to 101% stats with 1 cast, deep into blue lining in 1 turn is gnarly.

[trail sphinx]

This is a much better implementation of magic SS than Mana Burn was, since that one takes multiple turns and is either spec or offhand locked

Imagine using it with BoF against a summoner, oneshotting a summon, getting another turn and smacking them again with a high passive BLAST

[fluid sky]

But no fixes miss rate =/

[median frost]

It doesn't charge flasks but its slapping in PvP

[neat stump]

I wish the chest itself wasn't so bad on stats

[median frost]

Either ward or def would be welcome. Just noticed it has magic stat 🧐 azure pinion candidate for full glass cannon could be interesting

[umbral musk]

Yeah def or ward would be fine

[median frost]

I think if it were to crit 👀

https://tenor.com/view/unlimited-power-star-wars-gif-10270127

[neat stump]

Bit of ward would at least put it closer to something like aaru robe