Mage Rework Feedback Thread

[fluid sky]

I'd like to see manaseep fixed first and foremost, in the current state is unusable even at mid al. Aside that i feel like ara is in a quite good spot, the two things i'd like to see are:

• efficacious on corvus, its a very nice utility tool and i feel its absence while playing it
• something more for base, maybe a better efficacious % or something else, the only real difference from ara i feel is life siphon ,which is also obsolete with rubies

Aside for that you can take away omniflask and banishment, i've never found use for them so i would consider the screen space i would recover a buff /s.

[dim sluice]

Mana seep? I thought that was fixed already? What’s the issue with it?

[left coyote]

I think it regens way too much mana per turn

[dim sluice]

Meh. I don’t understand. Efficacious on Corvus I’ve seen mentioned a couple times. Don’t understand why. I don’t feel it’s a need, I feel it’s more like a “want”. I don’t even see what it would be used for when having the other 2. And maybe a better efficacious for base, but then again I don’t feel it’s needed. More like, would be nice..

Yeah. 10% is a large number.

People dislike it even if it pairs up with blood loss?

I mean blood loss gives the extra turn, so it’s not costing a turn

[unreal flume]

I've been doing dungeons using Vestaga as my main skill, with Manaseep and Asteria's stance active, I feel it's much more enjoyable than before using A. Qatvanga

[fluid sky]

For me efficacius is more of an identity of what flasks are. Sure they're a nice utility tool and i dont particularly dislike them, but the ability to pierce immunities is much more useful to me, an its what an identity should lean torward imho

[dim sluice]

Got ya

Yeah. IMO, I prefer the variety. I prefer having 2 with efficacious and 1 with, for example, crit poise and mystic feather, than all 3 with efficacious. Cause we would have to give up something.

But I do understand what you’re saying. I like efficacious a lot too.

But in the end, I think flasks are still developing and I think odie has more planned for it. Efficacious is not an identity and would be tough to pull off as one. According to what the studio has said, they have more plans for flasks. Efficacious as the focal point of the identity patch wouldn’t have been enough.

[fluid sky]

Well, we have something to give up, dont we? ;^)

[dim sluice]

Crit poise?!

[waxen sinew]

what if it was "rune pillars" that filled up instead of flasks, and you "cast archspells" instead of drank flasks? (no mechanical difference, just a different aesthetic)

[fluid sky]

Jokes aside i agree that flask have still much potential with future events, so we'll have to see what they bring to the table

[dim sluice]

Oh I was gonna faint!

Lmfao. Thought you were gonna say crit poise in exchange for efficacious

[fluid sky]

More like banishment, crit poise is not that great and only designed for short content(yes, its bait for endless)

But i still like it

[lean rampart]

I originally suggested replacing the flasks with something like scrolls, so yes, that would be an acceptable option since the mechanic has already been introduced and is unlikely to be changed.

[lusty nimbus]

I could be wrong but I have to imagine we will get gear that interacts with flasks and efficacious. And as much as accuracy would be nice we also have the new ranger spec on the way

Is there anything people feel the classes need (not just want) aside from the proposed manaseep change of reducing 10% regen to a more useable/variable value?

[astral moth]

Need.. 🤔

I echo the the sentiment above that Base Hera is not particularly interesting.
It ends up being more of an entry point that gets mostly left behind by HAra

I don't have constructive feedback though. I haven't thought about what I would think would make it unique

Aside, on Omniflask - you know how there was some discussion earlier about whether Hera should have aligned flask? What if Omniflask applied the sigil turn one, then hit?

That would bump its damage a bit and would extend its shelf life a bit

On top of it being a cool evolution of thr original flask

[finite talon]

base heretic ain't no entry point. It really is the only class I play. I feel it is in a good enough place. I am working with a lot of ALs tho.

outside preferring a change to manaseep being useful not just to Dara endless, I don't have a true need to any new flask thing.

Sure, I'd like to see better game design to have all flask to be useful at any stage of the mage journey but omniflask is there to bridge a gap for early mage before they can get ultima/tri elements. i don't have any ideas to help there but let there be a button I have to muscle memory not to push.

prospects of Efficacious/flask gear is enticing. But we'll have a while for a good amount of data to not have overpowered stuff.

other than that from a base heretic perspective, maybe just a little more umph on the pvp AI logic 😁

[main granite]

My opinions, lots of which have already been said. Vote if you'd like.

• 1️⃣ Manaseep changes to make it more flexible (there's already a suggestion to make it 2/4/6/8% recovery based on flask charge)
• 2️⃣ Buff omniflask a bit for early t10. It was designed from the start to be a raiding tool for early t10, not to be comparable to Ultima.
• 3️⃣ Give Corvus a little something more. I like the idea of an extra chunk of Dex, maybe 100-200 base. Alternatively, either Omnimancy or Efficacious to make the class feel more mage-y. Mystic Feather seems weak and I don't think Corvus needs to give anything up for one of these things, but I don't have a ton of playtime with the class.
• 4️⃣ Efficacious feels like part of the identity because we are the Omnimancy/elementalist class. We should ignore immunities to a degree, elementals are our specialty. I like the idea of base having a stronger version of this to emphasize that point.

[coarse chasm]

Yes but turning it off takes a full flask. That is rather cumbersome. Turning it on? Sure, full flask. Turing it off, should be any amount of charge on a flask. It takes a turn either way.

[lyric bison]

Hello everyone. I've been thinking and testing the class for a long time. I want to express my opinion on how to make Heretic a real "glass cannon" )

We need to have two flasks completely filled at the beginning of the battle. Why?

Because we are the only class that cannot deal powerful damage from the first turn. Hybrid and physical classes use a shield and can immediately deal huge damage from the first turn.
We can do this only by hitting a critical hit without using flasks.

What's the point of flasks if they can't be used right away?

Who is really a cannon, the one who deals 200k+ damage from the first turn or the one who does some stupid thing to charge the flask.

[main granite]

You want +70% stats on turn 1?

Followed by a sigil nuke

All on turn 1

[lyric bison]

Yes. then we will correspond to the idea of the "glass cannon" and become on par with other classes.

I don't see any other options for what to do to become a competitive class.

[dim sluice]

But I said use blood loss to lower the mana again once mana seep raises it

[dim sluice]

That’s more of a balance patch thing?

[lyric bison]

or should we make it so that in all battles it is impossible to kill on the first turn, like in the arena of finesse

[main granite]

+70% stats and a crazy M2 boost with sigils isn't a glass cannon. You can kill anything while being the tankiest thing alive

Run all defensive gear and you'd still nuke everyone

[crisp trout]

So we could be gilgas?

I agree with efficacious being on all 3. It's more of an identity than flasks imo. Those are just tools and most aren't useful. Give efficacious different levels of damage against immunity (add resist damage bonus too) like the other classes have with their identity passives. All gilgas have collateral damage, all RS have avidity, all beos have bestial bonds, etc. Doesn't make sense to keep efficacious off corvus.
Unpopular opinion, but I would give up crit poise for it. Too much of a double edged sword with stupid amounts of swapping to make it worth using. I would rather have corvus back than crit poise. Removing steadfast 2 from corvus was also not a great decision imo since there's no second chance and mystic feather is uhhh. Easy to bypass to say the least.

[lyric bison]

I understand. But Heretics are not played for defense or ward. What are we supposed to defend ourselves with? Other classes can kill us with one hit. It's only fair that we have that option.

[main granite]

I disagree, it is not fair for us to have fully charged flasks on turn 1

[lyric bison]

And what do you think about the idea of making all arenas similar to the Finesse arena? Then all classes will be able to use their abilities without dying on the first turn. After all, there you can't kill on the first turn and we have the opportunity to charge flask

[main granite]

Well, you can kill people turn 1 in BoF, but also not everyone wants to play with those rules

It's not really something that even makes sense discussing as part of the Heretic identity

[left coyote]

It does make sense to have something more passive that links all 3 classes. There's really not much synergy at all

[lyric bison]

Let's add a critical hit chance to new skills? So that we can use them if we play for critical damage

By using crits we can compete with other classes, but we are still weaker because we don't have as much defense.

[tawny aurora]

#811254572042420245 message
Heretic is a glass cannon 😆

#811254572042420245 message
you can check this one too

[trail sphinx]

Small poll time!

[main granite]

How much is asteria stance

[trail sphinx]

5% max per turn

[unreal flume]

Selection bar (2%/4%/6%/8%/10%) is out of the question?

10% is a lot for high asc, but it is a good value for early and without regeneration Amity or adornments to supplement

5% For players who have already obtained Amity from regeneration, have already gone through the event and have ornaments or the bracelet, it is perfect, because it is easier to put some adornment than to increase the cost of the spell.

The Selection Bar would be the best middle ground 🤔

[trail sphinx]

for now
It appears that the option (2/4/6/8) would take a bit more work than a simple number adjustment, so this would be done at least as a first step

[finite talon]

can you add a 2% option in the poll? 5% is still rather excessive for me. we can still add acorn management to 2% and not having to use bloodloss every 4th/5th floor would be nice.

[trail sphinx]

Discord unfortunately would make it so I'd have to make a new poll - but I do think 5% is a good middle point between early-game viability and end-game feasibility

I was going to mention the above referenced Asteria stance for an extra -5% max mana per turn since you could just add 4 acorns to balance it out, but then you might as well just use 4 acorns and no effects

I do want it to be usable for high AL, but it's tough to do without an adaptive thing, and that takes a lot of effort dev-wise - this is mostly for a hotfix

[finite talon]

yep. I'm down with hotfixes.
i was doing fine with acorns in endless. Endless is the only place I can think of at the moment where manaseep is good for me.

Hopefully that hotfix becomes useful for the majority of mages and not just a freebie tool for other classes.

[main granite]

Asteria does also have a mag boost attached, so at 5% for both it's a neutral mag boost. Idk what else asteria does though

[trail sphinx]

-Def/Res

I will say most endless goers use Aegir for the huge defensive buffs

[unreal flume]

I've been doing horde mode dungeons with this... After the update I got a use for Manaseep and a use for Asteria's weapon I have been using Vestaga as my main spell

[trail sphinx]

oh I just click Brilliant Lights II

[unreal flume]

This one is really good too, I just replace the staff and then use bloodloss 2x 😂

[trail sphinx]

honestly with TMM I don't even need bloodloss

only thing that really stops me is Medea and Arisen Mammon and they go down in two of them

[main granite]

Yeah I use Base/DoF with TMM, aaru robe, Qat, 30% arcane amity

Most content is just press Despair every turn, no buff phase, and bloodloss somewhere in the middle

[unreal flume]

This week I was using TMM, I was testing other things and between tests I did one or another dungeon, and I didn't want to change pets just for that (too many clicks) but I don't normally use it for dungeons

But it really goes well with the Aaru robe

[spiral spindle]

elementals are our specialty
pushes up glasses

Well, akshully...Heretics are the magic specialists and Deities are the element specialists. Those have overlap, but not all magic is elemental and not all elementals attacks are magic.

(I'm not actually disagreeing with you, I'm just being an ass.)

[whole lion]

Thats really weird since omnimancy refers to elemental spells. Agreed that this looks like there's some overlap on the elemental aspect of both of them

[spiral spindle]

Omnimancy (the passive) isn't unique to mage though, despite the mage classline being called the Omnimancy line. Deity has Unstable Omnimancy as a passive, which is just a version of Omnimancy that can grant weakness in addition to granting resistance.

(Again, not actually disagreeing with Phil's point. Efficacious is part of Heretic's identity, and I think it's reasonable to have a version of it on all the celestials too. Just nitpicking, lol.)

[unreal flume]

#1331673547210358794 message

Everyone can be part of the omnimancy tree, because everyone can benefit from the elements

[spiral spindle]

I love the idea that a t2 Strider using Fire Arrow is using Omnimancy. That's unironcally amazing. If that's how Odie says the terms work, who am I to argue?

[unreal flume]

One bad point that I just remembered now, Brilliant Lights 2 doesn't fill the flasks 😔

[unreal flume]

I just got home, and went to do some dungeons, Manaseep isn't staying from one floor to the next, or am I missing something?

[trail sphinx]

if I do end up using Bloodloss with BL2 I just use it at half power, I usually don't need it at all

[umbral musk]

Manaseep currently do not transfer between dungeon lvl.

Should be a bug

[fluid sky]

Imagine if its not

[versed mountain]

/suggest Rename Manaseep to Manasip

-# To better fit current usage

[umbral musk]

Bloodloss dont make you lose your health (blood)

👀

[chilly timber]

Mages are blue blooded

[whole lion]

Mages should take weakness dmg from bite then

Just so we can eat the rich

Get that protein

[chilly timber]

ok

[sand lava]

Mages are the Orna police confirmed.

[shut temple]

the royalty you mean :v

[plucky badger]

Lets make it 100% missing per turn instead.

[buoyant ridge]

The only option

[whole lion]

Eido the destroyer

[plucky badger]

I exist to twist the work of the creator

[crisp trout]

A suggestion to add a hypothetical Efficacious I to H.corvus

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1356421596385902694

[pallid summit]

Is Manaseep supposed to be usable on Heretic Corvus? Or is it restricted to only base and Ara?

[astral moth]

It is only Base and Ara, but it can be used by Corvus if you cast it as one of the other classes then flee and reenter with Corvus

Such as in endless

[pallid summit]

Hmmm okay, it may be bugged ATM then, I seem to lose it after I cast on base and swap to Corvus. Sometimes I lose it even if I leave the dungeon to use silver coins and shrines and reenter as base heretic

[crisp trout]

Might be intentional to keep it from being used on all classes

[whole lion]

Awww man i was looking forward to trying it out on gilga endless 🫠

[coarse chasm]

But most of our skills can't crit. Which I feel is a problem.

[spiral spindle]

Genuine question: What’s the average Defense:Resistance ratio of enemies in the game, and is it different at higher tiers or among “scary stuff that actually matters” (technical term right there /j)?

I obviously don’t know the devs’ intent beyond what they’ve said (sadly left my clairvoyance in my other trousers), but I could see the intent being that most spells can’t crit but this is compensated for by ability to easily hit weaknesses (which a warrior can’t do without 8 different weapons) and perhaps also by enemies tending to have lower Resistance on average.

If that’s the intent, there’s discussion to be had about whether that works in practice. But it might well be the intent, especially in light of the recent rework to give weaknesses to lots of enemies who didn’t previously have them.

[trail sphinx]

PvE? They're equal on enemy stats

[spiral spindle]

Good to know. So, that torpedoes half my speculation, lol.

Overall point may still stand, idk

[storm viper]

There is still the ubiquitous RNG factor to deal with, as well.

Doesn't matter if an Immortal Lord has less Res than Def if it avoids the attack 3 times in a row, then survives Mana Ray via Second Chance and kills us right after 😅

I just feel that's important to consider since Blood/Mana Ray isn't quite an at-will ability, though I digress.

[lean rampart]

There's a lot of talk here about balance, about how heretics don't need more damage... But heretics are glass cannons. What balance are we talking about? 🤔

[shut temple]

idk we can't have nice things because ultima is the ultimate spell and nothing can compete with the ultimate spell :V ... for some reason

[lime leaf]

Ability to nuke everything in the game in one turn at al 0

[shut temple]

delete ultima for the game and make everyone happy :v

if you miss and die that's balanced to me :v

(not really)

[chilly timber]

delete ultima and there would just be a different spell that is best in game

the issue is not competing with the best spell - the issue is that you can't outclass it without just good ol' powercreep

[lime leaf]

How’s the synergy for heretic guys?

[storm viper]

Maybe Ultima can work like Ultimastrikes (concerning interactions with Immunity/Resistance) while Ultima II remains as-is.

I dunno if that would change much, though.

[lime leaf]

I care less about the power than how fun it is (aka the flow of battle).. thats why i ask xd

[spiral spindle]

Obviously I'm biased, but I would prefer not to see Ultima go the way of SS - but they're kind of comparable, in the sense that they're just "the best" regardless of class, lots of classes use them even if not "designed" for them, and thus any change to them with one class in mind is likely to have balancing issues that ripple to other classes. They can't really be considered in a vacuum.

[lime leaf]

Yes no vacuum, combos and stuff plz lol jk idk

[storm viper]

Kind of like what happened with Arisen Spiritgarm and the Fey "Disaster" spells...

@lime leaf I'm not really sure what you're asking, but with a Quickcasting build, Ultima is an efficient 1-turn, crit-capable nuke when you build for elemental damage. It "flows" rather nicely.

[trail sphinx]

So, Manaseep has an undocumented change that it fades when you leave battle - this means classes without Manaseep Flask will essentially not have access to it... which includes Heretic Corvus.

[spiral spindle]

^ Presumably also has effects when, for example, leaving a dungeon to change loadout, even if not changing class

Nerf to use in Endless, possibly

[trail sphinx]

It does, and is the primary reason people wouid want change

[main granite]

That seems like a harsh way to do it. Punishes you for taking a break?

[trail sphinx]

do pick ALL that you'd be fine with replacing for Manaseep

[trail sphinx]

realistically, you'd have a flask to put it back when you rejoin, but you'd just need to do that

[main granite]

Yeah that's a whole turn

Death sentence in endless

[trail sphinx]

this is true, but most people do an endless run all at once when fully setup

[main granite]

I don't

[lime leaf]

Ok, i lied… i don’t care about combos and passives and stuff working together xd
I need me some ultima hehe

[lusty nimbus]

IMO it's there but a bit of an adjustment from other classes. I'm actually very curious to see what a new mage player's experience is like going from Flasks at t2 onward. Also curious how the crossclasses are liked by the other new players as they get a taste of flasks mid tree

[lime leaf]

I’m cool with a different playstyle

Sounds fun ^_^

[lusty nimbus]

Of the three:

-Ara feels like it has the best flow/direction with dropping Sigils and going wild with AVs but Bloodloss, Repetition, Inflection, Manaray and Manaseep (when adjusted) all provide solid tools to work with.

-Base feels like the pinnacle mage between its passives and good mix of flasks for a variety of situations. Banishment Flask will probably feel especially amazing for the fresh t10 who isn't as terrorized by Summoners. All the Flasks feel pretty useful here (again pending manaseep adjustment), the tri-elementals work great and Efficacious is especially relevant for Anguish but can also be an interesting tool in other situations

-Corvus feels pretty neat with Inflection Flask + Crit Poise (and Bloodray!) With the addition of manaseep, it might be a little easier to get more dex for Endless runs to miss less (though we have the new ranger spec coming too). It's fair to say Mystic Feather maybe isn't the highest synergy here but managing both bars isn't new to Orna. Also lorewise it feels like the combination of dex/Mystic Feather plus health means this is probably where Apollyon fell amongst the Heretic tree 📖

[lime leaf]

Thanks for the in-depth answer

[spiral spindle]

Big departure from "You buy Ara for AV2 but you never play it"

[lime leaf]

I shouldve gone ara 🥲
wouldve been so nice for all these raids

[spiral spindle]

I'm a mage at heart. I went Deity as my main instead of Heretic, but I'm really following the Heretic changes closely because I like mage play.

Which, also....

managing both bars isn't new to Orna
lol

[lime leaf]

Welcome to the fold brother

[lusty nimbus]

Yeup. It used to be a real drag to play Deity (before Celestials) in Endless because you needed to manage both bars to get the passive up to do relevant damage.

If tank mage builds and gear flexibility are a priority, Deity is still the master for that style

For me, Heretic is significantly more fun and exciting to play between the two but Deity is still an excellent class

[spiral spindle]

Yep, I prefer my cannons made of sturdier materials

Also, this is a completely irrational hangup, maybe, but I'm personally not a fan of the "dark magic" aesthetic. I know it's really popular though.

But still, Heretic is the purest mage

(I still say H.Corvus is, in terms of mechanics, one of the coolest classes in the game)

Also, I agree with your judgement about Polly. He's described as a Balor Mystic. Mystics (and Grand Mystics, may they rest in peace) are specifically mage/thief hybrids.

[lusty nimbus]

Don't get me wrong you can do a decent tank impression on Heretic between ward, some event gear and Blessed Shield Booze (Inflection Flask) but Deity can just do that better 😅

But you know loading an opponent with 4 Sigils and obliterating them, keeping some of the highest fade chance Buffs up perpetually, or dismissing summons with the snap of a finger is all something that Deity can't do just for a small list

[lime leaf]

I feel for the devs because there’s only so much they can do to balance outcomes. Changing up the methods is one thing, but—realistically speaking—won’t some classes always end up stronger than others? It seems tough to design classes that feel distinct and useful in certain situations without locking them into a rigid role. But if you don’t, then the more versatile classes just end up dominating too much content. I guess that’s why the meta keeps shifting.

(Not making any specific claims about the game itself, just thinking about the challenges of game design.)

[spiral spindle]

I have played games where there were many classes and they all ended up very close to balanced - but these games were generally not of the style of Orna. In particular, they tended to be games where amost all content that mattered was done in parties, and party composition was partly fixed. When players went solo in these games, or used nonstandard parties, things still broke down.

And even in those games, there were still differences between classes. They were just small enough that only the most hardcore min-maxers would care.

[umbral musk]

I think you are painting a too optimistic picture here. In my own view, there are things that still have much left to be desired and should be improved.

• Omni flask is not a useful flask past lvl 230, and can be improved to at least fill a niche.
• Efficacious feels a little ineffective.
• Heretic Corvus could have some QoL to help manage both mystic feather and iconlaust, currently it feels very crumblesome to manage both

[umbral musk]

Assuming if mana ray is swapped out for manaseep, we will have another problem. Too many manaflask and too few bloodflask for corvus

[lusty nimbus]

Would swapping an extra Flask or two to blood in addition rectify that?

[trail sphinx]

haha, me predicting this and the poll outcomes before I started the poll in ORN

but yeah, I think if the overshadowing of blood-mana is an issue, swapping Bloodflasks II out for Bloodflasks Corvus, which is 2 mana 3 blood, is probably a play - but realistically most of those bloodflasks are only used once in a while

[lusty nimbus]

I mean in endless you'd want a 4/1 Blood to mana so 3/2 is a happy place

[trail sphinx]

right now, you only really use Bloodloss once or twice, if you do, same with Banishment, and soon to be same with Manaseep

[lusty nimbus]

Also still let's you ward Infusion your 2 mana flasks

[umbral musk]

Bloodray is where we spam bloodflask, so i think its okay

[umbral musk]

Yeah, thats a good idea. Perhaps i will change up starting flask charge to be more balance too

[spiral spindle]

I like this idea because, if nothing else, it’s thematic. Having Corvus be the Bloodflask-heavy one just kind of fits, imo.

Ara already has more Manaflasks than Bloodflasks, and base Hera is balanced as it should be.

It all fits.

[left coyote]

Agreed

Im not convinced regarding banishment either.

[astral moth]

I have been doing such a run lately. I am up to t7 currently.
The flasks, sadly, are very hard to use until you are a high druid since you start with 0 charge. I shared my input on this before. I think it woukd be good if the earlier manaflask iterations allowed for even a tiny bit of charge. 25% seems like it would be enough.

[lusty nimbus]

That's been my experience the little I've tried as well

[trail sphinx]

Ended the poll due to #patch-notes

I think it's safe to assume that Banishment was chosen over Mana-ray to maintain the amount of mana/bloodflask skills

[mortal sluice]

will manaseep give different values depending on flask charge or is 5% permanent?

[fluid sky]

fixed 5% apparently

[lusty nimbus]

It is a fixed 5% of missing mana

[main granite]

For now at least

Implementation of the variable rate was a little more work than a hotfix, is what I heard

Maybe in the future

[lusty nimbus]

You can have roughly 5000 mana and maintain 90%+ iconoclast with Viperseal III

Or over 7200 and maintain that on QC Ultima

And for those with more - you now have a Malus that helps if you find a good Amity with +mana cost as a malus

What is the unicorn Endless Amity for Heretic now?

+25% Accessory
+50% Duration (for those misses)
+Accuracy?

+Mana Cost of Skills

[shut temple]

-- The "Manaflask" and "Manaflask II" passives now grant partial Manaflask charge when the battle has started what does this mean? 😮

i thought they already gave manaflask charge?

[mortal sluice]

earlier tiers started at 0% charge

[shut temple]

ah i see

[main granite]

I kind of just hate the "fades when leaving battle" part of this. The flask is dead to me because of it

[mortal sluice]

same, but also because of too much mana regen 😅

there was a suggestion in OL to make manaseep drain some flask % each turn

and fade when you dont have any more flask charges

this would solve other classes using the buff

[trail sphinx]

lmao, patch immediately addressed this

[spiral spindle]

This is basically the same reason Apex is not usable for tough world bosses/zerks. In order to reliably use Apex in a world fight, I have to meet all the following criteria:

• Deity (t8 and t9 gods have no chance, and in fact struggle to fill the meter even in a 20-floor dungeon)
• 2 Fallen God weapons
• Anguish 10 or higher
  If all those conditions aren't met, one of the two combatants dies before the meter is full.

It seems like Flasks are the same, or maybe even worse. It seems like the dev direction is to have these "identity" things be mostly for endgame stuff like towers or endless.

Hopefully the patch just now will help with the Flasks a bit.

[lusty nimbus]

The charge adjustment is primarily for those lower tiers. T10 classes already started with Manaflask basically full and a bloodlfask partially full - one tri-element will charge a mana Flask on any class and if you have a scroll, you can use different abilities or charge both the Mana and bloodflask in one hit

[spiral spindle]

That's good to hear

(Does anyone actually use Scrolls though, even with the change?)

Like, I have a "very good" scroll that's just been collecting dust in my inventory for months

It just isn't worth the offhand slot

If the bonus flask charge makes Scrolls worth using, that's certainly a good thing

[trail sphinx]

Scrolls now give good ward, much more useful now

[lusty nimbus]

I'm missing an aMorri Scroll which I'd absolutely use for the Bloodflask + Manaflask charge in one hit if I did.

But I have an Arisen Fairy's Scroll which provides some decent dexterity, an Arisen Witch's Scroll which provides small status effect chance and has an above average charge, and also a Dragon Scroll for a decent pump of magic and foresight

[spiral spindle]

Huh, okay, I may actually need to check that

[trail sphinx]

Like a slightly less powerful shield, for mag/mana/flask charge etc

[lusty nimbus]

Between Scroll changes and efficacious I'm enjoying not feeling glued to Sequencer as a mage

[spiral spindle]

Huh. So it does. That’s actually not bad at all.

Though the text has not been updated to match, lmao

[lusty nimbus]

Yep haha

[spiral spindle]

That scroll would near-double my t9 othersoul's mana too lmao

[storm viper]

Macha's Scroll also gives +100% to flask filling, although my Morrigan scroll is nearly as strong and worse quality. Hopefully I'll retain my luck for her event later on.

[lusty nimbus]

Oooooooh. Thank you for that! The 100% is what I'm after so either works

[spiral spindle]

Re, #📡│hype: That’s the Crimson Festival hat

[shut temple]

i like the 4 elements circle at the back, can we keep it for the sprite rework / add it to auras?

[astral moth]

hard disagree. Being able to use ara vestaga in towers with sigil flask is very much so worth it

[storm viper]

Scrolls are convenient for that in towers but not really necessary; It's easy to keep the flasks full with tri-element spells and/or Ward Flask Infusion.

They've been more useful in live PvP, for me. Filling 1 of each flask type in a single turn can make the fights go by pretty quick, especially if you keep getting matched with 2 NPCs.

The Foresight bonus they provide is helpful in both types of content, too.

[main granite]

I run towers without a scroll

[astral moth]

https://tenor.com/view/there-it-is-well-there-it-is-gif-8569483

[spiral spindle]

I don’t do live PvP, so I don’t can’t comment on that. Towers, ime the Foresight boost isn’t enough to matter against anything you’d care about (immortal lords, ronins, harpies, etc.). Used to be, the Ward penalty hurt more than any benefit gained.

I admit that scrolls now having positive Ward is absolutely huge, and I’ll definitely give them another chance. I still feel like a shield or a second staff will probably be better overall, but I’m gonna do some testing when I can.

[main granite]

Scrolls probably help towers go faster though

[spiral spindle]

At my level towers are slow af no matter what, lmao

[main granite]

Have you tried sigilflask?

[spiral spindle]

Not extensively. Could certainly give it some more reps, especially if I’m re-testing my scroll anyway.

[main granite]

Simply charge your flasks in easy fights and use sigilflask to nuke the harder fights. It's pretty strong

[astral moth]

If you don't want to risk the scroll, learning when to use Ward Flask Infusion is crucial to increasing your clear speed

[spiral spindle]

Keep in mind that I don’t have any celestial classes yet so Ara stuff isn’t doable for me yet

But I’ll try a few things and see what works

[main granite]

Well if you don't have Ara, you don't have sigilflask

And I never even use ward flask infusion. It's probably faster to use it

[spiral spindle]

That would explain why I didn't remeber using it, lmao

I currently have, iirc, somewhere between 70k and 80k shards. Not sure the exact number. Can check in a bit. It's just under 50% to my first celestial class, I remember.

My first celestial class is gonna be Dara though, not Hara. Sorry, lol.

[native karma]

Good choice

[lusty nimbus]

DAra is Endless, HAra will get you to DAra faster 😉

[spiral spindle]

But Dara will get me those tasty ALs, since I'm already rolling in mats.

Decisions....

[native karma]

Dara is also good i tower, you get a full apex bar after 2 battles or so, mean every 2 battles you get 1 free battle with AoE apex spell learned from t9

[spiral spindle]

Well, it's not a choice I need to make right now anyway, lol

[main granite]

You can do heretic endless now

[spiral spindle]

I'd imagine you need a lot of Ward

Then again, not like I'm any sort of expert on Endless, lol

[main granite]

Nah

Just kill them first

And buff up a lot first

#1347460928421105705 message

Also depends on if you're going for depth or for orn gains

Orn gains would want lost helm, court jester, 2x arisen terrors. Barely any ward

[coarse chasm]

Yes, in fact I use a base Arisen Morrigan Scroll for raiding (I don't have a better version of a 100% boost yet). With multi elemental attacks, it has turned out to be the best raid build available to me currently. I just entered Mid T10 for reference.

[coarse chasm]

How far are you getting in Endless now verse before?

[main granite]

I didn't heretic endless before

0al dara was better

[lusty nimbus]

0AL endless is currently holding the r3cord for most consistent endless at all ALs. Until Channelalus is turned to 2 turns and even after that and the passive nerf, you can pretty comfortably get to 400 in full farming gear at AL0

Heretic Corvus at 0 I can eek to 350ish shy of some super unlucky misses

But it gets really rough there where DAra just keeps on keeping on

[spiral spindle]

At the risk of getting off topic, I just had to rework my Deity loadout today (moved from physical to magic) and I actually removed Channelalus entirely. Deity’s passive procs enough that I found myself basically never using it.

Might be different in Endless, I guess—but if so, that’s still the only content I’d be using Channelalus in.

[left coyote]

I think corvus deserves efficacious.

[buoyant ridge]

I just use magic scythe. I don't even own dara

[left coyote]

Ok

[whole lion]

I think it would be cool if corvus was the melee Magic user. Im not a mage but it might give it some different meaning from base and ara

[lusty nimbus]

If Corvus were to get something, would more dex, accuracy, mana rush, non-elemental double cast chance, (just spitballing ideas) or something else fulfill the “something is missing here” role equally well/better than Efficacious?

[crisp trout]

That's what the flasks are for supposedly. Might as well give us our identity passive to all subclasses like the other classes received for their identity

[lusty nimbus]

Realm Corvus on previous live beta/balance patch loses avidity 😬

[crisp trout]

Unlikely to stay that way lol

RSC wasn't used to begin with was it? I don't see how removing it's class identity is going to help it

[storm viper]

So the equivalent would be Horvus losing Flasks then, wouldn't it? Their identity patch/passive is Avidity, ours is Flask magic.

[lusty nimbus]

I’m not opposed to Efficacious on Corvus but other than increasing the amount of idle clicks I can do in an endless run, is it the only thing you would want? Or would something that helps in a different way be more/similarly desirable?

[crisp trout]

Dex has a cap that is easily reached most of the time. Guess it would be beneficial to lower players, but the whole identity we received focuses on lower players/AL when it should be beneficial to the whole classline rather than either lower AL or higher AL imo. Second chance with mystic feather 😆

[lusty nimbus]

I.E I see a lot of people don’t like Mystic Feather, so would losing Steadfast and gaining Mana-rush into Mystic Feather (think Immortal Lords) be a desirable option?

It’s ultimately up to Odie/NF, but I’m trying to keep the convo rolling beyond getting fixated on one option. Now if that’s the option, by all means, have at it!

[crisp trout]

No. Going from steadfast 2 to steadfast on corvus was a mistake too. Mystic feather is our backup plan and then we get statused easier 💀

And the negative status carries with crit poise

I don't really see why magic dagger, sword hammer, etc were moved to corvus either. Those were great options for fresh t10s to use before unlocking celestial classes. That's a whole different discussion tho

[lusty nimbus]

Okay, so options. Solutions? I see Efficacious. Do we have more? Accuracy seems highly desirable in my experience though we have options to fill some of that

And what solution does Efficacious provide if added to Corvus?

[crisp trout]

Mana rush into mystic feather, hm. So basically a second chance to mystic feather like deity? Or what's the take on it? Seems like that pushes us more to be like deity, just more clicks. Idk if I've seen too many ppl thrilled about being a deity with more clicks other than deities that switched to heretic lol

Efficacious synergizes with crit poise in endless. It would actually pair better with mystic feather. Multi turn spells reducing damage coming in can put you into mystic feather in a pvp setting. Crit poise is a death sentence without lots micro management. Certainly killed my ai pvp builds because now I don't want to crit. Double edge sword would be that it also clashes with crit poise in some content, but you're generally not wanting a multi turn spell anyways. Though I'm sure the manual casting DC and reduced incoming damage would be welcomed in endless?

But I did advocate for removing the reduced damage. I pretty much mained corvus prior to the patch and brief hoc to gilga. Now it's completely dead for me because I can mindlessly do everything on base. Efficacious has its pros and cons on corvus sure, but definitely allows it to do a lot of content if it were to have efficacious with crit poise

No HP regen, steadfast 1, crit poise carrying over negative statuses, micro managing temp buffs. Just not an enjoyable class for me anymore imo. Now those that like menuing and spending a ton of time on a mobile game, I guess it's more enjoyable. I don't find swapping 4 pets, needing hp regen, and a cleansing pet or fully avoiding crit to be enjoyable game play lol

[lusty nimbus]

Steadfast 1 is only 10% less effective than Steadfast 2

Still a nerf but not a huge one

[crisp trout]

A big one when there's no second chance and negative status carries with crit poise

[storm viper]

Would Aligned Sigilflask on Horvus be a decent middle ground? Not helpful for Endless at all but it'll have a budget version of Efficacious, at least.

If physical magic is supposed to be their thing, then that's fine but they should still have some kind of elemental ability after 10 tiers of Omnimancy.

[vestal garnet]

What does sound enjoyable to you in contrast to what heretic currently is ? (Curious for just gauging community sentiment on what is fun and what isnt)

And follow up, did you like old heretic better? And why?

[crisp trout]

Heretic corvus I liked more, absolutely. Base I like because of efficacious. I'll take the old corvus passive over crit poise all day. My personal opinion is that menuing and constantly micro managing is not enjoyable. On a mobile game at least. Some enjoy it, likely more that don't and want efficiency. The 2h update is still the big winner for heretics imo. Bloodloss is nice for fast blue lining and mana ray is nice for immortals but not a guarantee. Other than that, most flasks can be ignored. This has been spoken about pretty consistently - check out heretic OL to see it repeated again today lol.

[vestal garnet]

All valid points and I don't disagree. Felt the same way about apex on deity. Luckily there are 5 other class lines to pick!

To be fair, compared to other classes, most flasks being ignored is pretty normal (not necessarily a good or bad thing). A lot of apex skills dont get used, delay strike doesnt see use really, ursa strikes, etc etc

The meta will always shake out. I think importantly if you can see utility in most flasks thats a win

[spiral spindle]

I feel like the identity of Hera is flasks and Efficacious. Not all classes have an active and a passive identity, but Hera absolutely does imo.

[spiral spindle]

I'll take the old corvus passive over crit poise all day.
For whatever it’s worth (which is very little, I’m sure), Ive said almost this exact thing about other classes that have had their passives changed during reworks over the last year. And not just t10 classes either. (Losing The Old Gods was ultimately a horrific nerf to the t8 and t9 god classes imo, and nothing they got in return even comes close to compensating.)

I overall think the reworks have been very good, but passives in particular is the one area I feel they’re been consistently lackluster.

[lime leaf]

Konq and erdrick, im curious about your personal views on the class as it currently stands. Sure there are always going to be complaints and that makes it hard to tell if the class got a fair shake in terms of rework release compared to other classes.

On a scale from 1-5:

1. Power / Performance
   2. Utility / Versatility
   3. Synergy / Compatibility
   4. Sustainability / Endurance
   5. Ease of Use / Accessibility
   6. Progression / Investment Value
   7. Creativity / Design Flavor
   8. Meta Relevance
   9. Fun Factor / Personal Enjoyment

[storm viper]

I agree, although we were told to think of flasks as a passive ability in response to requests for flask customization. I'm not sure if the same was said of Apex or not, but there are actual passives that change how Apex works for each Deity beyond starting/charging rates.

Only Horvus has a passive that goes along with Flasks (fills faster), which isn't really enough to justify removing Efficacious IMO, and they're still 1 ability short of the 7 the other Heretics have.

[lusty nimbus]

Power / Performance: 4 (4.5 if Spiked Shield didn't scale so absurdly well)

Ease of Use / Accessibility: 2 (not particularly hard but much less idle/straightforward)

Fun Factor / Personal Enjoyment: 4.7ish (it's no secret I'm enjoying the class quite a bit)

I'm not sure how to categorize the rest as it varies between:
-Anguish (1.0)
-Raids
-Horde Dungrons
-Towers
-PvP
-Live PvP

[lime leaf]

Thanks, that was fun to read

[spiral spindle]

On the topic of “Ease of Use,” I feel like it varies too. IMO post-rework Hera a class that has a relatively low skill floor but a high skill ceiling.

You can get through most common content by just spamming a non-ele spell like Transference. In those cases, it’s pretty simple and the only real complication is managing your inherent squishiness (mostly in hordes or against things you don’t one-shot).

However, optimal Hera play involves learning elemental strengths and weaknesses and exploiting those—which means codexing (or at least knowing thy enemy). That’s a much higher barrier to a lot of people.

In that sense, Horvus is actually “easier” than base Hera, at least at this moment. Being the “physical mage” removes a lot of the more complex aspects of Hera play in 90% of fights.

[storm viper]

But Efficacious exists now and lower tier mages can access Aligned Sigilflask to create a weakness, so while it's still helpful to be aware of immunities, etc. it's not necessary.

Physical attackers actually have to be mindful of that, between the physical immunities and whatever weapon enchantment they use, if any.

Magic Scythe, etc. are Physical and there's no getting around that as Horvus so those particular spells actually have the problem you described.

It's also why the Shadowed Element Strikes learned by Nyx Corvus are basically useless.

[spiral spindle]

True, though physical-resistant enemies are much rarer than those resistant to “magical” elements. Especially once you consider the sheer number of bosses who have Prism Wall in their kit.

Efficacious certainly does help, and imo should be on all three Hera, but the most optimal style of play will always be to hit a weakness when possible. That’s not necessary, and because it’s not it makes Hera easier to play. But it’s optimal.

[balmy scroll]

If rawrbot is up to date, it's 6 bosses (I think) with prism wall

[spiral spindle]

Well, I was including raid bosses in that. Should’ve been more clear. Sorry about that!

[balmy scroll]

Dev team raids too? Even tho around the corner, cuts that list significantly too

[spiral spindle]

My raid codex is missing a lot, but from a quick skim it’s both Cade, Lost Titan, Fey Yeti, Ob (based on Cade), Havel (based on Lost Titan), Dangy (based on ???). Probably some more I don’t have codexed yet.

Also shoutout to Great Murk, who doesn’t have Prism Wall but might as well lmao.

[balmy scroll]

#🐺│ask-rawrbot message

Tis rawrbots list

[spiral spindle]

Looks about right to me

Thanks

[balmy scroll]

Personally I probably wouldn't use once a year raids as part of an argument

[spiral spindle]

I mean, even with those excluded the list is reasonably long

There are three (I think?) dev raids on the list, but the list contains about 30 entries. Some of which are pretty common and/or desirable targets to farm.

[balmy scroll]

Well now that's mobs too haha

Where non elemental aoe comes into the picture (also for bosses too tbh)

[spiral spindle]

Yeah, if you’re one-shotting with non-ele, doesn’t matter

Becoming important for certain things though. Like FYC farming, for example. Or anything at a high enough anguish level that you’re not reliably one-shotting.

For most content, though, you’re right.

Frankly, if you’re using non-ele, doesn’t even matter if you’re not one-shotting. Just matters that they hit 0 HP before you do.

But if you’re trying to play “optimally,” that’s going to mean not using non-ele exclusively, since sometimes elements will be better.

But in reality, my point was more just that physical result is less common than ele resist.

[balmy scroll]

In a world with horde content, I just have trouble seeing it

[spiral spindle]

I think you and I are actually agreeing here. My point was that being a “physical mage” is going to be easier in most content.

We may disagree on whether it’s entirely optimal, but it sounds to me like we agree that a “physical mage” is generally going to reliably cut through most content more easily at least.

[balmy scroll]

I in fact don't agree 😅

[spiral spindle]

You’re in favor of non-ele entirely, I take it?

[balmy scroll]

Optimally you want zero resistance imo

[spiral spindle]

Fair enough. Wasn’t really a parameter in the comparison (since it was kind of “Horvus as physical” vs. “others as elemental”), but I take your point.

Apologies if I was unclear at some point earlier, lol

[balmy scroll]

All good!

[spiral spindle]

Brain not really braining well rn

[balmy scroll]

I dont think i went back far enough to the start of it 😅

[spiral spindle]

All good lol. It’s been a lengthy discussion. 😅

[plucky badger]

Wild idea:
Really lean into the bloodflask/bloodmage identity of Horvus and give it a GUrsa-esque treatment: Dump its mana pool into HP, make all spells cast off HP (maybe at a larger relative cost) instead, and either make its passive stat boost come from HP depletion, filled flask #, or some new 3rd thing. Manaseep can be Bloodseep: 5% missing hp. Bloodloss now effects HP. Mystic feather would now have an interesting interaction with spell casting decisions/healing.

[lean rampart]

Manna version of Mystic feather ... 🤔

[mossy gust]

Wildly cool

[buoyant ridge]

sounds sick as heck

[tawny aurora]

yes please

[storm viper]

Just an odd observation about Ara Vestaga's Savage 6 again.

It seems weird, given the recurring case of 1s where most other things become zero. Do our researchers at Cade's Lab know what's going on with it?

[main granite]

It's just calculated differently I guess, idk. Similar thing happens with Sorrow variants I believe

[lyric bison]

Hello everyone. In my opinion, we need to do something that can resist the spiked shield. Even with all the latest updates, it is very difficult for the Heretic to resist these classes in the arena. We do not manage to realize our abilities, we die. There is almost no chance in defense at all. I suggest several options

1. Add passive filling of flasks from received damage. This will work well with the second chance mechanics.
2. Improve the reflection skill. Using which blocks the received damage and fills the flask. Nobody uses this skill anyway, it works much worse than counterattack.
3. Rework the arena mechanics. So that it is impossible to kill the player on the first turn.

Аlso important to add the ability to choose flasks for battle independently, as we choose skills for the arena or raids.

[astral moth]

At least about spiked shield we can say it hits everyone equally. Giving heretic an edge against it would be a good reason to call it favoritism

[main granite]

Hits us a bit extra hard because our defense stat is abysmal

Can't resist even ss3 very well

[left coyote]

Heretic is the glass cannon

[lean rampart]

Suffered, suffering and continue suffer. ☝🏻

[spiral spindle]

Regarding point 2 above, I don’t think that’s a good idea. Having an at-will skill that blocks incoming damage (rather than simply mirroring that damage to the attacker) would make Heretic the ultimate turtle. You could just sit there and spam Reflect, and be invincible.

It would need to have a cooldown, like “only usable once every three turns” or something—which is unprecedented in Orna. Even then, it would completely neuter multi-turn moves. Heretic is arguably already better able than any other class to take an Ultima to the face, on account of the Omnimancy passive and generally high Res; this would make Heretic essentially immune to it without QC shenanigans. Which could be a deliberate design choice, but doesn’t mesh well with the idea of being a glass cannon.

[main granite]

Omnimancy passive does not interact with Ultima

Nothing resists Ultima outside of "increase resistance to X" amities. Ultima lies.

[lean rampart]

“only usable once every three turns” - just do 3+ turn cast and 1 turn of work 😌

[lyric bison]

It would be great to add a critical hit chance to these skills. Right now, we use them mainly to recharge faster. But if they could crit, it would open up the possibility to build around critical hits and elemental effects.

[lyric bison]

And here it would also be great to add a critical hit, similar to the Blood flax

[spiral spindle]

I feel like the ability to crit is what makes Blood-ray unique. Otherwise Mana-ray and Blood-ray are almost the same, just that one uses a less-in-demand resource.

[lyric bison]

Blood-ray is exclusive to the Raven. Others have Mana-ray, and they can't land a critical hit(

[spiral spindle]

But if you make them the same, what's the point of Blood-ray existing at all? Manaflasks are generally less in-demand as a resource than Bloodflasks, so why would anyone ever use Blood-ray?

[lusty nimbus]

These moves really should not be able to crit. They're just Ultima at that point 😅 except my non-crits from Ultima usually don't cap 100k damage

None of the Heretic classes need more power per their passives 😅

Corvus probably needs a bit more oomph/zest in the form of some pseudo efficacious/accuracy/crit poise tweaks/something but the other two definitely don't need bloodray or for manaray to crit

[plucky badger]

@lusty nimbus what do you think of this wacky idea?

[crisp trout]

If everything pulls from your HP, you'll find yourself dying insanely fast especially once statuses start getting applied too

[spiral spindle]

And "just make Horvus a bucket of HP" doesn't work either. If nothing else, it's out of character.

[dim sluice]

🤮

[lusty nimbus]

Sounds fun on paper but in practice becomes icky for the aforementioned comments

It sounds cool but I don’t think it would work in -practicality and would also encourage some major turtling/shenanigans- see GUrsa getting major ward while having “Reduced ward” as a passive

Love the creativity though

[dim sluice]

Ok. Not helpful. But yeah. No. I don’t see that working out well in any way. Too many variables. Just taking damage alone would be a big big BIG issue

[lusty nimbus]

If you were to change stats at all, making Corvus more Apollyon-y via more dex and hp but even lower defenses to match the “favored dex and hp in his younger days” text and to match the beguiled gear would be where I’d start

The mana feather idea and/or efficacious of some kind would also be an interesting way to go about it. Or some kind of accuracy/reduced fade rate when using a flask or popping an item to make critical poise more desirable

But ultimately it’s up to NF and I’m curious what the data shows so far for Corvus

[lyric bison]

He’s great to use for farming.

[lyric bison]

Decent damage, though unfortunately I wasn’t able to boost him that much — I’m playing through the scythe and crits in the arena.

[dim sluice]

That’s not a bad way to play. It’s just not the only one.

[lusty nimbus]

Point being it definitely isn't lacking for damage and the game could probably use more high damage-no-crit moves, not less 😅

With proper amities, you could boost that number significantly higher

[dim sluice]

The deeper you go down the heretic rabbit hole, the more options become available

That’s actually one thing I like about the class. Unlike others…we now have a really deep bag. Not useful for everything, but each little build is good for something

[lyric bison]

In that case, we need good items to boost damage with basic elements, perhaps accessories or inlays for stellar weapons. That’s what’s really missing. We need to increase elemental damage. What do we have to enhance our elemental power?

[plucky badger]

Yeah I figured, maybe my blood mage aspirations will be met when the cough 3rd celestial class comes out cough. I'm all for mana feather though, I think its fair considering no mana rush on horvus

[lusty nimbus]

But it's not missing 😅 though I'd happily take more options

Right now some things you can do are:
-More magic
-Elemental boosts
-Bestial Bonds
-Pets applying Sigils/Blights
-Pets applying buffs/buffing yourself
-or in a pinch you could do Magic penetration gear too

To name a few specifically element boosters:
-Beguiled Staff
-Amities with element boost(s)
-Anubis Bestial Bond and Sigils
-Dragons using Blights

[lusty nimbus]

A Flask that functions like Berserk but increased accuracy or locked health recovery at a certain level would be pseudo-blood-mage-y

Sort of to MW's point about a deep bag, the sky is also the limit for future Heretic gear via pumping efficacious or even adding unique flasks or something else entirely 😅 I look forward to seeing what we get down the road!

[lyric bison]

This is all good, we know. But I wouldn't take companions into account at all because they have a poor move frequency. Increasing the frequency of moves to get a bonus from a companion is more about Beowulf than Heretics.

[dim sluice]

That is a limiting factor. Creativity is crucial.

[lusty nimbus]

Yep. Creativity is key and I still feel like I've only cracked the surface of this build albeit definitely missing the ideal amities

[lyric bison]

A class for creative people).
💯 😆

[lusty nimbus]

That's definitely Heretic right now - partially because it's new and partially because it has an interesting toolbox

[spiral spindle]

I actually like this idea. Gear that gives skills isn’t a novel concept. But it could certainly be taken further:

• Gear that gives new flask abilities.
• Gear that gives new apex skills.
• Gear that automatically used a skill when you proc Avidity or CD (maybe?)
  The design space is pretty open!

‘Also, these would offset the issue of “we can’t give better gear to class X because that same gear can be used by class Y and it would be too big a boost to class Y”

[main granite]

Green is not a creative color

[lime leaf]

🥲

[plucky badger]

More like a class for masochists

[left coyote]

Has corvus always had both mana ray and blood ray? Doesn't seem great to have pretty much the same skill twice?

[spiral spindle]

Yes, this has been discussed quite a bit.

In fact, over 50% of people who voted in [Konq’s poll](#1343998744961745050 message) were in favor of ditching Mana-ray to add Manaseep. Unfortunately, the devs decided to nuke Banishment instead. (Banishment was still a reasonably popular choice, to be fair, but not nearly as popular.)

[umbral musk]

Banishment flask has been banished

I am... sorry

[trail sphinx]

My thought was generally (wrt which flask to ditch):

• Mana-ray if we are to pick any
• Banishment if we are to pick bloodflasks (mainly to keep up the balance between blood/manaflasks)

[shut temple]

is corvus still 3+2 (mf+bf)? if yes, make corvus 2+3 and get rid of Mana-ray, making corvus heavy bloodfocused 🤷

crossing-fingers that next ApoX event whenever it comes, will give some tweaks to current equipment, some flask thingies or new flask-gear (y)

[spiral spindle]

I think this is a completely fair take, though imo it would be okay—and in fact maybe even kinda cool—if Horvus were specifically the bloodflask-heavy one.

[left coyote]

Why would they replace one skill with the same skill we already have

Corvus has no efficacious and has two flasks the same. It seems half finished to me

[trail sphinx]

These were the steps that led to it:

• Heretic Corvus tends to be the celestial chosen for endless because of Crit Poise
• Manaseep allows for the infinite mana recovery that is commonplace with magic endless
• Manaseep fades when leaving battle (or rejoining, same diff)
• People lobbied for Manaseep to be on Corvus, so that it can use it

Banishment (and Mana-ray) were chosen as ones to be given up because they weren't really used as Corvus

[finite talon]

Corvous only allowed to have 6 flask tools? Base and Ara have 7.

[spiral spindle]

Doesn’t Corvus also have fewer passives than other Heras?

[spiral spindle]

Nope, I was wrong

Both the celestials have 6 each

Base has 7

Wait no, I was right

And also apparently can’t count

[finite talon]

perhaps omniflask is treated as full on early heretic material. By the time someone gets corvous unlocked they'd be onto other things than using omniflask so they don't get cursed with an additional button to not accidentally click 😅

[spiral spindle]

I was just about to comment here that I’m seeing more Hera than usual in the arena today, which implies that people might be picking it up more.

No sooner had I thought to post that than…ow.

So, can confirm a couple things:

1. Unlike Apex meter on god classes, flask charge is not visible to the opponent in PvP.
2. Mana-ray charges way faster than my Apex, lmao.

[main granite]

Flask charge UI is currently bugged and only ever shows on opponents on the left side of the screen

Also, manaray can be used without a full charge, it just does less damage

[spiral spindle]

Good to know, thanks!

[main granite]

In fact, that manaray only had the default charge

Flasks don't charge passively, only by casting spells that charge them

[spiral spindle]

I've been seeing more Hera in the arena, but never been nuked like that before. They're usually easy kills for me. Normally I can just throw weak attacks for a few turns until my buffs proc, then whale them down in a few turns.

I...may need to show them more respect lmao

[main granite]

If a heretic isn't nuking you turn 1 or 2, they don't deserve that respect

Probably

Manaray is a pretty weak spell all things considered

[spiral spindle]

Well, that guy cast DC and a few other Mag buffs on himself - which I let him do, because it's typically not a problem for me

But my current Arena build is also glassier than some of my other builds, and he got me

I'm not even mad lol. Didn't see it coming, paid the price.

[left coyote]

I think omniflask could do with being looked at again also. It seems a waste to have a built in obsolescence into an identity thats meant to carry on to end game

[lyric bison]

Dear Heretic colleagues, I wanted to ask if you’ve noticed any benefit from this passive ability? Personally, I haven’t really felt its impact. Perhaps it needs a buff or a complete replacement. After all, we’re trying to reduce all two-turn spells to one turn by choosing specializations or using stellar weapons.
It would be great to replace it with a quick cast. Or buff it so the difference is truly noticeable. Give the Heretic a 50% increased damage boost across all elements to really make it feel like they’re the true master of the elements.

[main granite]

The immunity damage is pretty nice for AoE spells like Despair from the Arisen Qatvanga staff

Also nice for endless. I think overall efficacious could use a minor buff but it's a nice quality of life ability that Heretics get to enjoy

[mortal sluice]

not for long, only untill anguish2.0 releases

[dim sluice]

No more damage. No more damage! No more damage! No mo’ damage!!

Anguish 2 will wreck us though lol

[spiral spindle]

insert Lionel Hutz meme here

[lyric bison]

I'm sorry, I'm bad at English. but I don't understand what you're talking about? Anguish 2, what is it?

[lime leaf]

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1362047163219185784

[lyric bison]

I'm just saying this because it doesn't work properly. Have you seen Heretics playing through elements in the arena? Have you tried to accelerate damage to at least 50-100k with new elemental skills in the arena? Enemies have clothes with resists, passive skills with immunities, etc. I made a set for a mage with an attack of 9000 and I deal 30k damage. It's much easier to just play through crits and scythes, chakram. No one will use these elements, except to charge a flask.

[dim sluice]

I think heretic is intentionally stronger with crits. Remember we ARE a crit class, we’ve always had that passive. There are other ways to play with those spells. For example, charging flasks or using them for their status effects. Or even much more specialized damage builds. But 9k magic is not enough to use them.

Those spells have a crazy amount of penetration. Getting crit on them would be crazy. And I think reworking a spell with the intention of having it fit a “not optimized” build is not a great way to balance something. I’d suggest getting 2 good amities, 30 elemental damage with a second effect that also boosts a different element and using twin beguiled staves, for a potential 170% damage increase and then maxing magic. Now that would be a sight to see 🤩

(I don’t know if my math is good, but whatever. You guys understand)

[crisp trout]

Cough cough, kind of like a melee skill with an m1 of 5 that crits? 😂

That's in jest. All for them not being able to crit since I need something to avoid crit poise.

[storm viper]

Efficacious only interacts with immunities and allows us to deal some damage where we otherwise could not. It does nothing to increase damage against resistances (although it probably should).

And yes, it has helped in PvP because Heretic and Deity, in particular, can no longer be immune to spells cast by another Heretic.

The tri-elemental spells have high penetration and can quickly fill flasks; With a scroll equipped, you will fill 1 Manaflask & 1 Bloodflask with a single cast on your first turn. It's just a different feeling building for elemental damage bonuses compared to crit but the trade off is being free of Ashen Pinions or the rare Lyncus Bristles.

[spiral spindle]

Also, playing elements is (to me) just more fun. I remember way back like a year ago, I told my kingdom at the time I wanted to be an elementalist. I was advised against it, because at that time playing elements was an extremely disadvantaged way to play endgame. I did it anyway.

As it happens, these days it’s a completely viable strategy—which I appreciate!

[lyric bison]

I understand that it will work, but it needs to be researched. And to collect certain things. It's hard to say what we will have to sacrifice and what we will get. And whether it will be better than playing through the crits.

[dim sluice]

Yeah. I understand you. It’s not a bad mindset. I would say that it’s actually a fun build to make. But I would definitely suggest, get the correct gear and amities before making a judgement.

All I’m saying is I sometimes see people hurry to a conclusion before they finish exploring the build. Heretic has a lot of potential currently.

As long as you understand that it will not be your most powerful build, you’ll love it. Also, that same gear will be used in other builds, like Ultima. Which will be your strongest build if you ever needed it.

[main granite]

I'm actually using the damage reduction of efficacious in morrigan raids right now

Pairs very well with divine bastion

[lyric hazel]

To the crit class comment, I've always wondered why hera has a base crit chance of 1% compared to many other classes with a base of 5%

[dim sluice]

Isn’t our multiplier higher? (Except maybe realm?)

[lyric hazel]

The damage multiplier is (2.5x vs 2x), but the crit chance is 1%

[trail sphinx]

Realm and Heretic have 2.5x, Nyx has 2.25x, the rest have 2x

[versed mountain]

Summoner has crit chance of 1% with regular crit damage multiplier
/shrug

[spiral spindle]

This is probably a pointless observation, but it’s interesting to see that some of the Elderred mage classes (or Elderred classes who could wield mage gear) have had Flasks retroactively added to their kits, while others have not.

• Sorcerer: Yes
• Druid (legacy version): No
• Grand Mystic: No
• Battlemage: Yes
• Majestic (legacy version): No
• Dragoon (legacy t5 version): No
  I have a guess why only some of these have Flasks now, but without seeing the backend I wouldn’t be able to verify that suspicion.

[spiral spindle]

Full-turtle Hera is absolutely a thing.* This person was DB with 102k Ward, and just spammed Ward recovery while letting the Ashhole hit me for 1000 per turn.

* It’s not a particularly good build on Hera, but it’s extremely common in the 230-240 arena bracket. In general, this bracket seems to favor “full turtle.” No one-shot meta here.

[main granite]

I mean, I guess without a crit celestial staff there's not a lot of great spells

I was nuking people for most of my time in t10

[crisp trout]

Defensively, it's generally best to turtle. Or was - settlement spacing made it a little less impactful

[spiral spindle]

Was just discussing that in the in-game chat:

The change from 1h to 2h cooldown between fights, coupled with the ability to refill the HP of your territories remotely (without having to physically visit them), means a lot of the DoT strats I used to use to take out turtles—or people so far above me I just couldn’t reliably hurt them directly—are no longer reliable.

As a result, turtles no longer need to be quite as turtly, because there are fewer viable ways to get through defenses.

But I’m getting us off topic. Sorry.

[astral moth]

Pfft. Arisen Stonewarg? That is baby league turtling

Try Ectoplasm + Sphinx Kit DB spam on base hera in our brave new Efficacious world. Now THAT is turtling

[left coyote]

Would upping the power of efficacious be game breaking? It's taking me 2 turns to kill the krakens and gilgas at ang 50, whether the 1st turn hits for a small percent of my normal damage or whether it's immune, it still requires 2 hits to kill the enemy so it's not particularly helpful

[mossy gust]

I can just barely kill them in 1 turn but it takes Hara, a bunch of mag, oracle + double 30% arcane amities, and AL 46. I'd like to see a small power bump too

[vestal garnet]

Being able to get thru immunes is already pretty insane though. Heretic is the only class that ignores immune.

Maybe lets wait and see what gear gets added ?

Usually a gear rework to lean into new classline passives helps/follows

[mortal sluice]

this will help in current anguish, but what about 2.0 where HP is scaled up?
i think those 2 bosses will still take 2 hits with shackles and high anguish level

i'd happily trade this part of efficacious for a different passive that works in more content instead of only despair AOE

[left coyote]

Yeah i think so

I'm hoping were back to square one being the worst class at anguish when 2.0 comes out

*not back to square one

[shut temple]

that's brutal :v

[left coyote]

Also mana ray may not be that useful if HP scales more

[main granite]

Tbf there are parts of the rework that seem geared towards 2.0. Inflection flask will supposedly be useful in 2.0 for buffing phases, sigil stormflask plus vestaga is a great way to oneshot high hp targets

[lean rampart]

Buff phase - glass cannon... I feel something doesn't add up, but what... 🤔
sigil stormflask plus vestaga... hmm... sigil stormflask on corvus are probably good... 😋

[main granite]

Well that's the point - in some ang2.0 content inflection flask would help survive

[lean rampart]

Well, I think the point is to enjoy...

[shut temple]

we glass-cannon but i don't feel yet that i'm cannoning enough for being as glassy, unless it's because i'm not that high AL?

[spiral spindle]

This might be a hot take, but when I play Hera I don't really feel like a glass cannon?

Like, yes, I'm not as tanky as when I play Deity, and my DPT is marginally higher. But to me that doesn't really scream "Hera is a glass cannon" so much as it screams "Deity is whatever the opposite of a glass cannon is."

Now, Realmy? That's a glass cannon. Lives and dies by the ability to kill things quickly and not get hit. Hera is a soft target but I don't really feel it truly fits the definition of a "glass cannon" to me.

[storm viper]

We're lacking an ability on par with the likes of Hybrid Monster, or boosted SS backed by Bastille, or +125% damage just because the target has Ward active, etc.

Outside of the Arena of Finesse, our need to set-up will often mean death before our damage can match what others are capable of immediately.

[shut temple]

but how do you "fix" that without putting the class in "too broken" , "unfair" or "unbalanced"

[storm viper]

It's hard to say without knowing what the standard for balance is supposed to be.

Waiting so long just to wait more and see where everyone falls in Anguish 2.0 for a chance of anything more isn't ideal but it seems that's what we'll have to do.

Classes having certain areas where they perform better is fine as a concept but if we're supposed to be the best Raid class, for example, then I feel a bit underwhelmed looking at the cost of things in the Monumental Guild we would primarily engage with compared to something like Anguish. Maybe I don't do enough raiding for those purchases to feel rewarding, though.

I do appreciate the help from this and the 2H patch but it's very difficult to look at Heretic in a vacuum and say we're doing alright as-is.

[buoyant ridge]

I got it guys, It's just a spell that charges up for like, 8 turns. we get a passive that all buffs stay when a skill is charging up and it does like 8 gazillion damage. it would be ultima 7.

[mossy gust]

So powerful that it skips several ultima iterations. I like it.

[spiral spindle]

Ultima Ultimate

[main granite]

Ka-Me-Ha-Me-Hultima

[astral moth]

Yeah, that is what we need. Slower setup lol

[main granite]

Efficacious now gives +40% reduced incoming damage per turn spent multicasting

And +40% outgoing damage

[left coyote]

Imo heretic identity is pretty messed up. We've not got the cannon power compared to beo.hydrus or even spiked shield builds, but were definitely not tanky, but we've been given flasks which are like a swiss army knife which is nothing really to do with being an elemental glass cannon. Efficacious fits into element mastery but its not particularly great plus corvus doesnt even have it

I always thought deity was jack of all trades meaning flasks would have been helpful, but Ara got a really specific mage passive

[shut temple]

i think D.Ara feels more what I would think a Heretic Glasscanon is (except that deity itself is a bit more tanky), it's super crazy to get the T.Mags which i think helps a lot in glascannoning, i think the identity has a good base but might be lacking in the part where the class that is a glasscannon... is not cannoning (I do like a lot my swiss knife tbh)

[median frost]

Been playing about with the Ara vesta spells recently and they are gnarly. I've really enjoyed playing with them. Coupled with Sigil Storm they become very spicy. Also enjoying the Manaseep into bloodbloss loop, in between setting up big Ara+Sigil hits. Heretic Ara definitely feels like a well rounded, considered alternative to base heretic. The Non elemental (celestial?) damage gameplay is strong for pretty much all parts of the game.

[storm viper]

This I can agree with; Hara more or less received the fix that it desperately needed.

Base and Horvus leave much to be desired, but maybe I haven't figured out how to use them yet? Life Siphon is the only reason I still use Base and Critical Poise does not seem enjoyable to use. Seems fine for towers but Sigil Stormflask exists...

[spiral spindle]

I recall last year but told “Hara is something you buy for AV2 but never actually play.”

How times have changed…

[left coyote]

Tbf Ara should have been fixed and an identity provided ontop of the sigils. When they were 1st released the sigils and vestas were pretty unusable

[astral moth]

Careful. If Wrecked catches you bad-mouthing Base Hera...

Corvus is very useful in its niches (endless and QC Ultima in my experience), but is a lot more niche than it used to be by comparison. It didn't lose much/anything but HAra gained so much that you kind of have to go out of your way to justify using it outside the places where Crit Poise shines

[storm viper]

I like it still, but I'm not interested in using Omniflask, don't have access to Stormflasks, no Blood Ray...so now Base Hera has been relegated to Despair duty for me 😔

[storm viper]

I will soon be forced to do some Endless within another AL or 2, so perhaps I'll finally give Poise a try then.

Right now, Horvus is just my map scout since we can't fill flasks on floor 1 if we enter a dungeon as Realmshifter.

[spiral spindle]

Base Hera is the only Hera I play lol

I like it fine

It's not my main class, but it's fun sometimes

[storm viper]

Well that makes sense, since you play Deity...

[spiral spindle]

I haven't bought any celestial classes for Deity either lol

[crisp trout]

I just find base all around more useful for myself still. Maybe an AL thing. Ara is just a speed tower runner for me, but more than it used to be at least lol

I just like not needing to maintain HP really lol

[spiral spindle]

I of course have no direct comparison, but base feels really balanced to me. I like having Mana Rush and Life Siphon; those two seem to work really well together for me.

Mechanically, Horvus is one of the coolest classes in the game for me, in theory. It's like the final evolution of Grand Mystic, which is one of my all-time favorite classes. But idk if the current form of Horvus really does anything for me. Won't be able to say for sure until I eventually try it, I guess.

[umbral musk]

I am of the opinion that Horvus need something to make it work smoother. It feels really janky trying to blue line and red line at the same time without having some kind of tool to assist.

[astral moth]

I don't know if I should, but I honestly don't really try to redline much, if at all

[lusty nimbus]

Let's see if we can get some kind of majority/consensus and then (probably?) wrap this thread up?

Manaseep tweaks to make it function similarly to summoners (fading for non-omnimancy classes) have been brought up already as have some of the ideas tossed about fairly regularly between here and OL

[astral moth]

Does it need to wrap up?

We can have more focused threads too. I find it useful to have this one where lots of us already know to come check

It is not an either/or thing IMHO

[lusty nimbus]

Which of the following would you want to see on/for Heretic Corvus:

A) Efficacious of some kind

B) A "Mana" version of Mystic Feather

C) More dexterity or better access to gear (especially shoes and off-hands) with dexterity

D) A flask or effect that limits healing above a threshold

E) Nothing, Corvus is fine as is

F) Something else?

[spiral spindle]

Any of those would be good but I voted A and B in particular. Regarding C, do note that more Dex gear has already been promised for Realmy, and Horvus can equip thief gear.

[umbral musk]

A and B will be great!

[main granite]

Mystic feather is just borderline nonexistent on corvus

In my limited experience with corvus, there is no incentive to utilize this ability outside of very niche scenarios

I'd love to just delete it and get some other powerful ability that makes sense

Also, critical poise should only apply to positive buffs now that there is that 3% fade chance since beta

[astral moth]

I would make away with MF too and not really miss it.

I do agree with others that have mentioned before that efficacious feels like a key component of Hera's identity now. It has been said before that it is more of an identity than flasks and that I don't agree with, though. It is both things together.

Oh, here's a spicy thought: is there a world where a Corvus-flavored efficacious could give a dodge chance while charging spells?

[storm viper]

I was thinking Mana-based Mystic Feather + Iconoclast basically makes Horvus a lower-risk Realmshifter.

That doesn't appeal to me personally, but an evasion bonus managed the same as Iconoclast sounds a lot less clunky in theory, at least.

I'd rather see Efficacious on them, though.

[lime leaf]

What would give hcorvus better endless the most xd?

Need some heretics on the top 10 list lol

[lusty nimbus]

C probably because Accuracy though B or D would help too via theoretical survivability

[lime leaf]

Voted b and c

[crisp trout]

A and C. Really hate that corvus became just an endless machine. Used to be a lot of fun in territory pvp and now it's pretty damn dead. Unless you're a BoF player I guess

[cyan geyser]

What did corvus lose that changed this?

Steadfast II? The pos duration thingy?

[lusty nimbus]

I'm also curious. But if that is the case, there are 3 other classes with Steadfast 1-2 and Staying Power

[lime leaf]

Endless machine? V:
I need to learn the ways

Fr.. xd

[umbral musk]

we lose steadfast 2 and positive duration, in exchange for crit poise

[lusty nimbus]

Steadfast 2 to Steadfast 1 is only 10% Status Resistance between the two

Neither Crit Poise or 40% Buff Duration are tailored towards PvP hence the question of what changed?

[left coyote]

100% we could replace one of the Ray flasks with something to make corvus more appealing. Im not much of an endless dude but i use corvus for towers, have a flask that somehow gives starting wars turns would be fantastic. Considering heretic is the only t10 class without Access to gear with starting wars turns. (Inb4 chef pants)

*starting ward turns

[crisp trout]

Yep, I don't want to crit with crit poise now and carry negative statuses which are also more easily applied. Turtle builds don't fare in settlements nearly as well as they did in territory given theres usually larger gaps between. I didn't need to crit to keep DC up longer. I Pretty much mained corvus before too for all content before the gilga stint, now I don't touch it. Too much micro managing. Running endless with it is even annoying as hell constantly needing to swap stuff out to keep the buffs up where as with corvus passive I wasn't too concerned about trying to keep so many buffs up. Probably a me/fomo issue on that one though knowing they can stay with crit. Drop off definitely seems way higher than 3% tbh.

The one benefit I did see in corvus after fighting one of the top territory/settlement players is that corvus is way dodgier on settlements than territory when I had a side by side comparison of the two. Possibly due to ghosting, but who knows. 5k dex isn't exactly low on an offensive front and chakram getting dodged 10x in a row on settlements made no sense compared to maybe 2 on territory. I don't bof, so I can't speak on that personally, but from what I've seen it appears to do better there.

[crisp trout]

10% is 10% and uhhh isn't it planned that g.herc is getting steadfast 2? The absolute tankiest hardest hitting turn 1 class in the game will have it on all 3 💀. I hit way harder turn 1 on gilga than heretic and I'm guaranteed to survive a counter because I don't need to be glass cannon build. That will likely still be the case with ss nerfs.

40% buff duration was 100% more pvp friendly in the ai world than crit poise. Didn't need to crit to keep DC up. Crit poise isn't tailored to pvp. I'll agree there.

[whole lion]

Gonna have to hard disagree on gherc being the tankiest / tankiest hard hitting when theres deities and beoH

But i havent heard anything about gherc getting steadfast recently. Would be dope, since its an enough drawback that its barely used heheh

[umbral musk]

people are sleeping on beoH/A with protect build for walling

that thing is nasty with jord +++ up

[whole lion]

I forgot about that

And you

Made me remember

[crisp trout]

Gilga in general in the hardest hitting turn 1 class. Well known, disagree all you want

[crisp trout]

Pretty well used in the territory/settlement world

[whole lion]

🤷‍♂️

[spiral spindle]

To be fair, training cactus doesn't abide PvP rules, where penetration increases with turn count

[whole lion]

BeoH has the insane double hybrid combo + full ward turn 1, also BB might help but im not used to what followers provide what bonds

If we're talking utility, deity is better because THATS a tanky class + super ward + full ward t1 + steadfast + staying power + the arguably unfair combo of redline and second chance

[umbral musk]

We digress, can we go back to the current topic?

[whole lion]

Plus it gets to a point where its not super relevant how much damage you have since ppl dont usually wall around with 2kk hp

[whole lion]

Sry

[umbral musk]

we are going down the class v class rabbit hole again

[whole lion]

I took the bait shame on me 🥲

Unintended bait but i took it

[crisp trout]

Here's what it's like to be a glass cannon with no survivability . There needs to be a class comparison when were claimed to be a glass cannon and this is turn 1 at 173 AL. The only other one coming close should be corvus.

[lime leaf]

Seems like a lot to me

Is that the point?

[crisp trout]

In comparison to tank non glass cannon with near 100% survivability..? No. Lol

[lime leaf]

Oh rip

Unbuffed 6 digits would be a nice goal one day lol

[crisp trout]

With chakram you still can but you are dead after turn 1. And chakram will also likely be zeroed after turn 1 on a player with low AL if you do survive. It still gets zeroed for me even at that 18.4k mage

[lime leaf]

So basically the glass cannon didn’t feel cannony enough?

[crisp trout]

It's not a fitting title given to us imo

[lime leaf]

O

[main granite]

Is it just a SS problem though

[crisp trout]

I hit hard yeah, not hard enough to take out a gilga to get popped by ss on the counter though. Or even deities

Yeah but the SS problem will never be solved

It will likely still be the hardest hitting turn 1 after nerfs

[main granite]

"Never be solved" and "likely" are very different sentiments

I can solve ss right now - delete it

I think there's a middle ground

[vestal garnet]

Pretty sure BeoH is the turn 1 specialist

I dont disagree about ss nerfs though. But i wouldnt compare anything heretic to ss

Also corvus clearly isnt the pvp class anymore. It's definitely a bummer that it is different but let's not force change to make it the pvp class. Heretic as a whole seems solid at pvp now (barring any comparisons to SS3 )

[cyan geyser]

the elemental spiked shield III comparison above is also flawed especially for pvp

[crisp trout]

Here's a 10 al un optimized gilga

[vestal garnet]

Ironically this is a relatively easy solution. Not quite sure why it's been pending for so long.

[spiral spindle]

Short of that, implement a class-specific resource. Neutra Eventualus would be even more busted for a redlining RS than it would be for Deity. Mana-ray would be broken for a BeoH. But neither of those classes can use those things.

No reason they couldn't implement the same for SS. Bonus, might also prevent spam.

[left coyote]

I'd really like to hear from NF on where they feel like heretic is.

[main granite]

Heretic identity patch is "complete"

Balance patch remains

[crisp trout]

Yeah, but look how long it takes 😏 years. So never is a very real possibility for some players lol.

[main granite]

I'm sure a big part of this is ang 2.0 stuff

[lime leaf]

From the way you quoted that I’m inferring you think it’s not complete?

[main granite]

Just minor updates still needed. I enjoy the current identity patch

Would I have chosen this direction for the class? Probably not but I'm too new of a player to have a real alternative

The patches did successfuly increase heretic performance and uniqueness though

[lime leaf]

Right now I’m using heretic for horde, hara for towers and raids, but what should i use hcorv for?

I thought it was meant for endless but seems like more for pvp?

[main granite]

Corvus is for endless for me, but honestly it's still very clunky and I'm pretty sure 0al D.Ara outperforms...

I guess that's the blindspot for the identity patch, corvus is not in a good spot imo

[crisp trout]

Corvus was better in pvp before. It's not targeted into pvp anymore at all unless you want to bof

[spiral spindle]

Which is a shame, because Corvus is pretty undeniably the most unique of the Heretic classes

[lime leaf]

In the beginning it seemed most people were hyping up corv but somehow it ended up the weakest

[spiral spindle]

And the coolest, imo

[crisp trout]

The only thing I see going for it was those misses with chakram which is a fixed miss chance. And honestly, think it's a bug because it was the same day RSC recieved those dex changes

[main granite]

Crit poise used to permanently keep buffs, that was the hype

[lime leaf]

Give it back give it back.. lol

[main granite]

They gave it a 3% fade rate and suddenly the class is kinda poopy

[lime leaf]

Why was it deemed unbalanced?

Wonder if it has to do with any metric from the game or just pure decision making / hypothetical

Kinda could get in line with that line of thinking.. like a cause and effect rather than pure rng

@ wrecked

[main granite]

I think it just made endless kinda autopilot

Not sure though

[lime leaf]

Oh

Nothing wrong with autopilot for me xd

[crisp trout]

I deleted it because I thought about it more and realized you will never get your temp buffs up unless you're only pet swapping lol. And I think that makes us miss out on one of the crits we use/need?

[lime leaf]

Tbh, switching pets for temp buffs is a bit out of my league rn (missing some pets / not a part of my gameplay loop), but i liked the idea of cause and effect. It fits heretics mold of intentional gameplay rather than other class passives that might be more rng

[main granite]

You can hit a fine middle ground, it's just not as good as dara

Konq was doing dioscuri mead, manual cast dc, inflection flask combined with archimedes pet

You could rotate between archimedes and phoenix with 75% crit

There's room for play but it's just all clunkier

[spiral spindle]

This is probably ignorant, but could you do something like Deity with Archimedes to proc auto-DC and GM, then swap to Corvus to try and maintain them with Crit Poise?

[umbral musk]

too much of all these swapping and additional stuff actually make you earn less orn per hour

[main granite]

Yeah the problem isn't getting the buffs, it's how well you can maintain them and how much mag/dex can you squeeze out

Dara still just does all of it better I think

[lusty nimbus]

That wasn't even all of the Buffs you could get up when there wasn't a fade rate - but you couldn't take damage from anything except Arcane in which case you were reasonably likely to just be immune anyway

[main granite]

And physical

But yeah having all the temp immunes seems pretty strong

But still, there's misses

I think having the fade rate is fine. Maybe 2% instead of 3%? But there's no reason why debuffs should stay too at this point

[lusty nimbus]

IIRC if the data shows an issue, the fade chance might be changed in the future but that was something from the Patreon beta from before release and some fade chance ultimately was needed for balance sake.

3% to 2% would probably be the most likely in that scenario

But I might be misremembering what was said and the data may very well show significant success. If nothing else, it's easier to get further in farming gear than before

[atomic cypress]

(All of the reasons above are why realms didn't want it for corvus)

It's a cool passive in concept, but takes a huge amount of micromanagement

[lusty nimbus]

Per the PvP discussion, I really don't think these changes axed Corvus's potential in PvP. Temp Buffs are already rather unreliable in PvP so I wouldn't have put its Optimal builds as focused on them pre identity rework (not saying you couldn't try)

HAra probably has the highest turn two damage in the game so I don't think Heretic is hurting there (definitely agree SS is too much right now though)

If we are after PvP Buffs for Corvus, I'd probably want making it so its Status Effects had a chance to ignore enemy immunities for a "Pseudo-Efficacious" effect that played into the Thief side of things 🤷‍♂️

Would also give you time to charge up Bloodray and go BAM! if your opponent was stuck

[crisp trout]

DC could be kept up easy with the corvus passive in pvp. Not hard with bestial pots windtamer shoes, and if you want, a weapon of black kerb eyes as well if you see someone on the move. Was very reliable to not have it drop off immediately.

[lusty nimbus]

And can be kept up even easier now just equipping crit and firing?

Or be done on Deity with the ability to tank via higher defenses?

[main granite]

So is/was chakram bugged? It should have a fixed 5% miss rate right?

[crisp trout]

I don't want to crit. Everyone will then just status the hell out of me as well as refract/reflect/CA. Trielemental will be the last thing I try once I have the gear I have in mind for it. I have no interest in deity whatsoever for pvp. Worst ai pvp class there is imo.

And my AL aren't on deity. My AL grind has always been for pvp to make heretic work against everyone else.

[crisp trout]

Idk if it was chakram that's the issue, I've never seen that happen. I will say I consider the player to be the best low AL defender in the game and while not asking for a specific dex number, I doubt it was higher than mine. I just asked if he was built into dex and he said it was OK, but not built into it. There's over 120 AL difference so me rocking pumpkinless def had to of had me well above him dex wise. Either the territories have such reduced stats from going ghost or horvus is in some way bugged. It was the day of RSC dex changes which is why I feel like there may have been something that caused it

I've never seen my horvus dodge so much though even in a full dex build

[lusty nimbus]

Heretic doesn't need ALs to work in PvP so I'm not sure what the goal is there beyond starting with an advantage or matching someone else's starting advantage

If the goal is to defend territories, Heretic, Grand Summoner, and Realm are all going to have a tougher time of doing it than Deity, and Gilga (and BeoH) utilizing ward and defenses.

If that's the playstyle you want, I understand being stubborn with a class choice, but what you're after exists and you're currently choosing not to use it 😬

I also understand the concern of Gilga being able to swing for a ton of damage and then survive a hit or two if the opponent doesn't die and SS being a beast of a move

Back to the main concern though- how does Efficacious on Corvus fix this issue for you? Or is it just a convenience thing more than anything? I'm on-board with Corvus needing some zest but I'm not sure how your proposed solution addresses your brought up concerns

[vestal garnet]

@crisp trout what is it that you're trying to accomplish with heretic in pvp? I don't want to make assumptions but it sounds like you want to be able to hold territories as heretic against everyone?

Knowing this might help me assist better with any suggestions / improvements

[main granite]

I think paper thin heretics hitting for less than ss while the ss user is also the tankiest thing alive is the concern

But again, that is likely more of a SS problem

[crisp trout]

I'm well aware they have a much tougher time defending after literal years of territory play as heretic 😅 lol. I've learned to do it well over the years. I'm not a back road stacker relying on the path to never be traveled. The AL is 100% needed to keep up with the power creep when you're defending on heretic if you plan to keep anything. I can tell you from a previous thread discussion there was not a single build or suggestion thrown out there that I haven't tried. Deity is still one of the easiest classes for me to shut down and take from. It was just as easy when I ran my gilga stint too. Deity is dead to anything imbued or ultima even with 80% resist amities. They just second chance like no other.

I don't really have a proposed suggestion outside of voting on efficacious and an increase in dex. A simple statement that corvus was a much better passive for pvp imo and h.corvus main target is now endless and it's a micro managing nightmare. I don't want to crit when I'm defending. I know most of the players playstyle well that I'm fighting and I know exactly how they counter me. I'm not going to build something that's useless off the bat.

Efficacious is a benefit in pve and pvp. Pretty sure we've already gone over this a couple times here and OL. Celestial arrow so we can actually use the spell that comes with the subclass without getting immuned, dungeons, endless. Reduced incoming damage casting multi turn spells. Fine with that not being there though if corvus is to get an efficacious variant.
Dex would be a benefit in pve and pvp both for multiple reasons too. Likely don't necessarily need the dex in pvp if it's not currently bugged after seeing what was happening.

[crisp trout]

Yeah, I like successfully defending. Of course I'm going to lose some and don't expect to keep it all, but I'm usually going to make it tough if I'm on. I know a majority of the the players playstyle that I fight and how they counter me. Crit poise is 100% a death sentence for me on corvus. Tri elemental will get tried out once I get the gear I have in mind for it and maybe it will fare well. Not hitting too hard to off myself while inflicting potential statuses etc. I just don't think crit poise or going to steadfast 1 were great choices for the class.

There was really no point in trying to defend against you on 3 yr old territories which is why I didn't bother to throw more than 2 or 3 builds out there lol

It is what it is, it was changed and will probably stay that way. Just used to be my favorite subclass and it no longer is since it was turned into an endless/bof class. But again, maybe tri elemental is the answer for me here since I haven't been able to try it out with what I have theorycrafted

[lime leaf]

Is hcorv really an endless class? I thought it doesnt really get too far :/

[main granite]

I mean, crit poise is good for keeping up temp buffs but tbh it kinda feels like it sucks

It might be good for deep endless but it's intensive micromanaging and has significantly less mag than other heretics

[lime leaf]

Checks out

Guess regular heretic it is

[lusty nimbus]

HCorvus certainly puts in work for Endless. I've been breaking 400+ in farming gear on HCorvus with/out pet swapping other than initial setup

It hit the cap in the last OR in one go on each raid

It can zero aMorri ults and just take your time for the new Heretic (albeit I like Ara 2 shotting more)

It can blast towers faster than or as fast as Ara with an Arisen Trevelyon Staff

It can speed raid well with QC setups

[lime leaf]

I guess its a lack of understanding then. Hara seems pretty straightforward now with the sigils + nuke combo.
I like base heretics heal and oneshotting horde dungeons, but not quite sure what the loop is for hcorv..

Btw, any indications for a buff overall for the class? Or is the current status balanced enough?

[lusty nimbus]

Corvus feeling a bit off seems to be a fairly common sentiment amongst the various mage/heretic threads. I do think there's not as much experimenting as there could be but it tends to feel a bit less than in my personal experience. I wouldn't say it's a mess or bad though, just missing some smoothing out.

SS damage vs survivability is an issue I see pretty commonly brought up as well

#1343998744961745050 message bumping the vote. I can add other options if people think they'd help. Crit Poise being bumped to 2% fade for instance

[spiral spindle]

Of the options listed, it looks like two of them are far-and-away more popular than the others

[lusty nimbus]

Again, just trying to keep the discussion focused on Heretic/get an idea of what people think the class needs. It seems like Corvus is the last bit to smooth out

[spiral spindle]

I feel like the fact that SS keeps being brought up in threads like this (and others) is itself a telling sign - but, agreed, not directly on-topic here

They really ought to give you ORN reps the ability to create polls and to pin

Would make your lives much easier, I'd say

[lusty nimbus]

I actually think that bringing up SS is valid. If Heretic is the glass cannon, why should the tank class do similar/more damage without trading survivability. But also a known issue and getting adjusted in the impending balance patch

[spiral spindle]

Oh, they actually worked out an adjustment for it?

I didn't know that, but glad to hear it!

[lusty nimbus]

I don't know if the adjustment is or isn't finalized o.O I just know there have been a few pending adjustments of some kind on the patreon betas

What they are, I'm drawing a blank on

That'd be a Big Yoshi question 😅

[spiral spindle]

Fair, lol

[left coyote]

Wont to upcoming ward adjustment with AL sort the SS problem?

Will affect us too tho

[umbral musk]

As of the current changes in beta, SS is still going to be dominant especially since crit build is getting nerf as well

[left coyote]

Why would they let SS still be so dominant?

And give heretic such a poor identity, especially considering it's the only t10 class without access to celestial axe

[spiral spindle]

They have tried to nerf SS before. It used to be able to crit, for example. Every time they try to nerf it, a substantial portion of the most tryhard players quit.

I feel like at this point they’re terrified of touching it, since they’ve seen that every previous attempt has hurt their bottom line. (Possibly/probably the same reason they can’t really crack down on refinery farms and other such things, even if those things weren’t really “intended” behaviors to begin with.)

This is mostly speculation, mind, but based on what we know I don’t feel it’s particularly unlikely speculation.

[versed mountain]

SS is still getting touched on fwiw. Ward at higher ascension levels should be going down, and SS is losing the 95% accuracy perk.

[spiral spindle]

That’s good to hear!

Erdr1ck mentioned yesterday that they were working on it

[umbral musk]

ohhh i tried that version and its still dominant even with the nerf

i will stop here, we are digressing (yet) again

[spiral spindle]

I’ve also heard people say that it’s uncertain what exactly the changes are and that any changes aren’t going to affect its dominance (which would track with my speculation, so something-something-confirmation bias)

But yes, this isn’t the place. Sorry.

I’ll shut up now.

[left coyote]

Heretic Hercules

[crisp trout]

Digressing or not, here's exactly why we have no faith in the CS/SS nerf. It will basically do nothing. Cool, reduce ward for ALL higher AL players behind certain ALs, but basically nothing will change with it besides it's accuracy.

[left coyote]

Isn't Dex scaling being remived tho?

So literally no difference

[crisp trout]

In PvE. So it'll effect it in PvP but it's not going to change anything. High ALs will stack it's m2 probably instead of m1. But it doesn't matter, a 50 AL gilga with no ward nerfs is going to hit harder than a 173 AL "glass cannon" turn 1 and still likely survive a counter if the opponent survives

Throw ranger spec in for that accuracy boost

SS needs to be nerfed harder in the pvp side like ultima was. And ultima can literally be zeroed off the bat

[vestal garnet]

This in addition to potential future titan augment rebalancing though

But yeah agreed, the scaling even at AL 50 is kinda off

Ill do my best to vocalize when a patch does come around. Ss3 been an issue since inception even after reworks in the past. Hard to balance with power creep without nerfing to the ground so its definitely a challenge

[crisp trout]

Yeah, but the titan augment rebalance has been brought up and then kind of ignored/pushed back multiple times. Maybe that will be thrown into the balance patch at some point since it doesn't seem like that's going to be a quick release and will likely have to continue beyond ang 2.0. But most players aren't going to want to wait another year + to see a change in it that will actually matter

[lime leaf]

What is the need for the augment balance?

[crisp trout]

A lot of the augments don't have much use and then you have selene hands with +15% hybrid damage making them insanely strong. It's the primary offender for huge CS/SS hits, but there is a theory the big hits would still be possible with m2 rather than m1. No way of knowing that though since there is no finalized rebalance on it

[lime leaf]

What I’m hearing is i should switch classes xd

[crisp trout]

I can build a SS build on h.corvus that hits nearly as hard turn 1 as other options (I could probably make it hit harder if I min/maxed), but heretic is also the hardest class to make SS work

[vestal garnet]

I understand the doom and gloom of not trusting important balances to be released in a timely manner. Maybe a discussion thread with specific rebalances would help. Happy to summarize it when it runs out of gas

[lime leaf]

summoner

[crisp trout]

Everyone else gets that axe or lute lol

[lime leaf]

O

[crisp trout]

Oh and sgs. We need dangys laptop that comes around once a yr. Which is in a few days lol

[lime leaf]

Awesome haha

[crisp trout]

You had a thread recently on certain changes/balances didn't you?

[vestal garnet]

Not specifically

[left coyote]

I would really like to see more celestial weapons for heretic. It's very limited.

[vestal garnet]

The point of cele weps is customizing with augments. More not really needed

Usable Augments lacking diversity is the issue

Titan augment rebalance/rework was on the slate but not sure what happened

[left coyote]

But compared to being able to use a lute and an axe and a staff and sword

And a scythe or whatever

[spiral spindle]

Yeah, I’m really worried I’m not going to be in a place where I can grind Ornaversary this year, and it’s really worrying me.

I feel like there must be a way to celebrate the game without locking players out of must-have items for an entire year if they have plans or if irl is happening one particular week.

That’s a very different conversation, though. (And it’s one for which the population of this server may be the least representative of the overall player base. Fan forums are never really representative of the overall player base, in any game, but this factor skews particularly hard when the topic is “exclusives.”)

[crisp trout]

But at the same time we don't want celestials to be the only dominate choice 😅. There's no winning in the celestial playing field really

We need more adornments that are not necessarily as good as titan adorns, but similar to keep weapon choices viable

[vestal garnet]

Heretic isnt deity

Whats the real issue here that we are trying to solve

[crisp trout]

It's kind of becoming an all around balance discussion. I think the main thing is we're told we're glass cannons, but we can't really hold that title when we need to buff to reach it and our survivability is low without mass AL and even then we are fragile and not necessarily a glass cannon. But making it not be broken is the counter side.

[left coyote]

Basically our identity didn't bring us up to line with the other class

[crisp trout]

And a lack of diversity. Corvus is a bit more diverse, but lacking still

Being able to pop out a melee build with efficacious would be cool. Niche, but cool

[left coyote]

I would do that

I always thought it was weird that we could use Thief gear but not really the weapons

[waxen sinew]

this is, afaict, intended.

the identity patch was explicitly not a balance patch, with a balance patch coming soon ™️ .

[crisp trout]

It's the "coming soon" that concerns people because given the history, soon is not soon lol

So we will still sit feeling like we're a worse off class which may not be the case in the future

Is ORN allowed to disclose if balance is still in the beta for them? Or not a possibility since beta is open to patreon now

[fluid sky]

Part of the balance patch is in public beta afaik

[vestal garnet]

Lack of diversity... How is it any different than realm / gilga?

Full diversity means beo or deity simple as that

In terms of balancing, i think its an overall balance issue rather than a heretic needs buffs issue. I can see a world where selene hand nerfs and ss3 nerfs actually make heretic the strong class again. (Barring deity being overtuned)

[crisp trout]

I mean realms could mage dance 50 ang horde boss before while heretics couldn't...

But yeah, everything else needs to be balanced to bring it in line if we're going to be glass cannons.

[lusty nimbus]

I'd say even just one more would be nice since we are stuck with stick or big stick

A Celestial mana bow with magic and dex/accuracy and no foresight would be a decent tradeoff - no quickcasting/weapon proficiency (on Ara/Base) but gives something the class wants/needs for a little extra variety

[waxen sinew]

Can someone get me a link to the origin of "mage is a glass cannon"? I've seen it repeated a bajillion times, but not sure where it started and if NF has any opinion on that.

Personally I don't see how an entire class (and its celestials) can be a glass cannon. That feels like something players trade-off with spec/gear/followers within the class.

Maybe some classes can be slightly more offensive or defensive at their core, but I can certainly imagine a tanky Heretic and a glass cannon Gilga or Deity.

[crisp trout]

Odie plays heretic

In all seriousness, I think he referenced it in this thread. Mobile discord isn't the best at finding things

[lusty nimbus]

Not actually saying "glass cannon" but this is the origin

[main granite]

He's used the term glass cannon before I believe

[lusty nimbus]

If he has, discord doesn't show it in searching 😅 that was the first thing I searched for. I only found the post above because I remembered Mobile and Simbad talking about the glass cannon identity thereafter

[crisp trout]

I mean I just posted him saying he plays glass cannon in 2020... he plays heretic lol

[waxen sinew]

desktop discord is also not the best at searching with #1084643200725164062 😅 (you can only search the whole subdirectory, not individual threads i.e. #1343998744961745050 ).

[crisp trout]

Ah didn't realize desktop was the same as mobile in that aspect lol

[main granite]

Just more like this, but yes

Tbf him saying he plays a glass cannon doesn't mean the entire classline is a glass cannon

But heretic is meant to be squishy. It's just also not the biggest damage dealer

Which is... imbalanced for pvp.

[lime leaf]

Idk if this has any meaning but i counted the different classes in global top 100 yesterday

Deity - 28 occurrences
Heretic – 20 occurrences
Beowulf – 19 occurrences
Gilgamesh – 13 occurrences
Grand Summoner – 9 occurrences
Realm Shifter – 9 occurrences
Arcanic – 1 occurrence

Think i miscounted one but basically a lot of top players are playing heretic. If heretic was in a bad spot i don’t think so many would be playing it :/

[waxen sinew]

genuinely not a bad split for representation in top100.
it's good data for balance threads.

[lime leaf]

Also didn’t check every single one but a lot of them were with a lot of ascensions so i assume main class

[crisp trout]

Devils advocate here, heretic and deity are currently the best ang 50 horde boss classes atm so I think we will find most top 100 playing those 2 since many grind that content

Even with buffing I blow my gilga speeds out of the water which wasn't the case before. It took 2x as long lol

[vestal garnet]

In what way is heretic not doing the most damage? Are we just comparing to ss3 in that comparison?

[lime leaf]

And didn’t Odie say that heretic wasnt supposed to be focused on anguish xd? Thats a blessing in disguise i guess

[main granite]

That's a 36AL beoH vs me at 39 AL

[crisp trout]

I personally compare turn 1 no buffing and try give a fair comparison using the proper specs and top adorns I can. I can likely turn 1 higher on gilga without SS than heretic at equivalent AL

[main granite]

I'm on a glass cannon build

[vestal garnet]

Can you try that and post screenshots for it please

[crisp trout]

Ang 2.0 will be a different story. We likely won't be despairing our way through

Sure send two HoC's over

[vestal garnet]

Im genuinely trying to find the culprit of what is actually causing the damage imbalance (outside of ss3)

[crisp trout]

Nah, I have enough conq guild to buy quite a few hocs. I can do it later

[main granite]

Does this look balanced

[vestal garnet]

BeoH selene hands ss3 is beyond broken. The true boogieman

Good thing that class misses like no other once flat miss on ss3 is gone

What im trying to ask is - outside of the known ss3 and selene hands broken ness, is there anything out of wack? Please test and let me know

[main granite]

It's just a stark contrast. Every piece of my build is geared towards ultima or accuracy, leaving me paper thin.

And this isn't high AL

[crisp trout]

Oh, a lot of my gilga gear is lesser quality than my heretic too. I was legit running a couple legendary pieces lol

But I'll still give a comparison

[storm viper]

Aren't elemental and crit bonuses being nerfed soon as well (changing to additive vs multiplicative)? Or was that speculation?

[vestal garnet]

To be clear, BeoH -is- the glass cannon class and turn 1 specialist. Ignoring selene hands and ss3 which need nerfs and Ill never argue against that, heretic out damages beoH by a mile with blueline

[main granite]

How are they a glass cannon

They're a ward cannon

[vestal garnet]

Ss3 selene builds are entirely out of hand and ruining the pvp scene ill stand on that platform till the end.

But im begging all of you for a comparison outside of these factors

[whole lion]

That 1 fokken arcanic lol

[lime leaf]

Dude is insane, i think it’s his main

[main granite]

It may very well be a ss issue but it's not just a damage issue - it's also survivability

Heretics work incredibly hard to get that high up in damage and sacrifice a ton of survivability

And we get outdone by anyone that stacks ward and ss

[vestal garnet]

#1343998744961745050 message

[umbral musk]

its an SS issue imo, I might be wrong but no other build can build up survivability and dmg at the same time, at the same time benefit from so many multipliers

[main granite]

Even if ss is fixed, we are left with a glass cannon build that still can't oneshot someone that tanks hard, and they will still be able to kill us because we are paper thin

[vestal garnet]

Im not sure how true that is in my experience

[main granite]

This is an example

[vestal garnet]

I see the ss3 boogeyman nothing else really

[main granite]

Ignore me taking 5-10x my hp and ward total

Since that's the "ss issue"

Look at the stats

I still didn't oneshot them

I still would die to anything they throw at me

[whole lion]

I think this has much to do with ultima being always resisted (except for deities). Your dmg is pretty dope for a resisted hit

[main granite]

Ultima isnever resisted

[storm viper]

And they only need to hit us with something physical or non-elemental to bypass our "survivability" from Omnimancy.

[main granite]

Ultima lies. It ignores resistances

Only "increased elemental resistance" effects work, like souls of rhada or amities

[whole lion]

What? That camt be true. Red numbers are always lower than yellow ones afaik

[main granite]

Ultima lies

Trust

[whole lion]

👀

[storm viper]

The Elemental Def/Immune buffs don't even work against Ultima.

Ultimastrikes is a different story, but it has a higher multiplier when hitting a weakness.

[main granite]

It's the same way for trielemental spells btw

[lime leaf]

I’ve noticed my red tri numbers are lower than my blue ones

[storm viper]

Because they deal more damage when hitting a weakness

[lime leaf]

So red and yellow should be the same?

Hm nice

[lusty nimbus]

What exactly is the discussion here??

Are we saying that Gilga can build a ton of ward to tank an Ultima and also fire off Horizontal Slash 3 for 100k+ damage?

Or Realm? Or Beo? And that Heretic can't match that with their own Ward?

Or are we just talking about the known issue of SS/Ward Scaling per ALs/flat miss chance/etc?

[storm viper]

The glass cannon is all glass and only cannon-ish, and gets shattered when trying to load before it can fire.

So... Option 1, I guess.

[main granite]

It's an issue if a class can tank the "glass cannon" and still deal equivalent or higher damage

[vestal garnet]

Im AL 5 and not glass

[spiral spindle]

Not sure it’s what you asked, but in my arena bracket right now the Realmies typically have as much Ward as the gilgs. (Both frequently 60-80k.)

[vestal garnet]

Dont even play this class

I really dont understand the struggle here

Outside of ss3 and selene hands

Still asking for legit proof that other classes hit higher without selene hands or ss3

[main granite]

Is this even similar AL

[vestal garnet]

5 AL vs 12 AL

[crisp trout]

Ultima can be zeroed turn 1... the second anyone sees heretic they slap on 80% resist, rhada souls, or both

[vestal garnet]

Ok so use something non ultima. Got it

Brb

[crisp trout]

Try chakram. You'll hit hard

But chakram is also 1 and done for most players. It's zeroed as well

Even at 18.4k mage it gets zeroed for me

[spiral spindle]

Should add that these numbers apply to the heretics too

[crisp trout]

Then we resort to av3, but we're dead by that turn lol

I'm usually dead by turn 2-3 even at 173 al if I miss or get zeroed

[main granite]

Wait what do you even mean not glass? What's your build

[crisp trout]

That's 100 glass with a dual wield lol

[vestal garnet]

Im hitting 50k with scythe turn 1 at 0 AL without even a cele wep

Not full glass

[storm viper]

Who was AL5 earlier?

[vestal garnet]

Me

I turned off AL in arena for this one

Im asking for proof but im having to supply it

Please give me evidence

[vestal garnet]

Of this

[crisp trout]

Wouldn't these tests be better done against a cactus rather than random players in arena. Oh well... AL disabling is a thing. So I don't need to HoC if we're going to use arena as our example vs cactus

[main granite]

You're asking the mages to provide evidence of other classes hitting hard

[crisp trout]

I'll do it but im going to use prom hands on heretic vs only 3 selene on gilga. I can give a straight prom vs prom or selene vs selene too.

[vestal garnet]

Help me help you

[crisp trout]

Don't know if I have the right gear to whip up a good crit build on gilga but I'll still give it a shot and show stat comparisons

[storm viper]

Wouldn't it be easier for you to use your class without SS or Selene Hands?

[crisp trout]

Me? Or who lol

[storm viper]

S2iVi, I meant lol

[vestal garnet]

Sure i can do that

Heres my not full glass BoF realmD

Survivable realmD BoF we will call it

[crisp trout]

These really need to be done on cactus. Every player is rocking different gear

[vestal garnet]

AL 0

I can run it multiple times if you want

Or mirror since im basically 0 def

[crisp trout]

Mirror would probably be more accurate

[vestal garnet]

Im just looking for ballpark numbers here

[crisp trout]

Add the option to disable ALs in mirroring real fast plz odie

Omg you can no AL mirror didn't think that would work

[main granite]

Can you answer what you mean by not glass

Bc naked 30k hp sure looks like glass to me

[vestal garnet]

Against myself with no defense

0 AL

[main granite]

That's very comparable to heretic ultima

[vestal garnet]

Gear with defense and ward at least as much as HP

[main granite]

Show it

"Gear with defense" means squat

[vestal garnet]

I took the adorns off already

[main granite]

How is that an ultima build

[vestal garnet]

Just slapped random stuff together tbh

Oh the ultima one?

[main granite]

That's what I replied to yes

[crisp trout]

So much for that fixed miss chance 😂 😂

Celestial with pumpkinless is as survivable as we can get while keeping damage

[main granite]

Supposedly it's 10%

[left coyote]

Classic heretic

[vestal garnet]

With 2x 40/30 amities on the ultima one

[main granite]

40crit 30 elemental?

[vestal garnet]

Ye

[main granite]

Those are god amities for ultima, no wonder you're hitting that hard. And you're not on sequencer for the guaranteed 1 turn ultima

[crisp trout]

And only 135k that's horrible

That's a horrible hit for those amities lol

[vestal garnet]

0 AL ?

[main granite]

135k for 5al with a crappy build is high, amities make sense

[vestal garnet]

Guys you are proving my point lol

[crisp trout]

Yeah that's bad for 2 70x multipliers

[vestal garnet]

I slapped together random shit and went into arena and hit with it

[vestal garnet]

Proves my point

[main granite]

Two god amities is not random lol

[vestal garnet]

I rest my case

Good discussion

[crisp trout]

It doesn't prove your point lol. I can tank and hit that hard on other classes

And ultima can be zeroed at the start

[vestal garnet]

Provide evidence

[main granite]

"I have two of the best amities for ultima and have crappy gear, but I'm not a glass cannon"

[vestal garnet]

So far the non heretic is the only one doing this

[main granite]

Every other screenshot you posted can 1shot your "not glass" build

[crisp trout]

I literally just posted the most survivable build for heretic at 0 AL with chakram and my mirror using scythe

[vestal garnet]

Gotta go thanks!

[crisp trout]

We cant survive AND deal damage lol

[main granite]

That is the point we are making

[crisp trout]

It's we tank and hit nothing. Or we build into glass and die to a sneeze

Pumpkinless with a celestial 2h is the best chance for survival and keeping damage, but at a much lesser advantage to everyone else

[main granite]

The only important gear choices there are celestial staff, kaladanda, and bulwark. That's what I had too, but you are using oracle that doesn't guarantee a turn 1 (bad plan) and two incredible amities

This is completely a glass cannon build that dies to any other class

[left coyote]

Didnt he just one shot himself? And disprove his point?

[main granite]

Even more glass cannon than mine because of dualwielding with no sequencer

[storm viper]

My video is compressing but I'm not sure there's any point in trying to change the mind of a non-mage.

Not that it'll prove much seeing as only 1 arena match replicated the main issue that we're trying to describe... I'll post it anyway when it's done, though.

[left coyote]

Im not really sure what were trying to prove

Surely ss based of defense mechanisms.to attack is always better off than crit

[main granite]

Yeah this is high damage overall. Going up against a class with no resistance (like gilga) means ultima hits hard; but against beos a normal hit from ultima is more like 50k

[whole lion]

Isnt it possible already?

[main granite]

And for the record, heretic has less resistance than beo (or deity). Hitting 135k on another glass cannon doesn't prove much; even with 85k ward heretic defensive stats are garbo

[crisp trout]

I never do arena so I wasn't aware, but yes. Tap the box then the mirror screen

Just remember this when taking into account examples

It will be extremes without making it as fair as possible

[whole lion]

Heretics should have at least the same res as deities. Meaning deities should have, at most, res = heretic and def = gilga, not more than both

Imo of course heheh

[main granite]

Extremes are useful bars to set but you need to recognize they are extremes

135k on an unreliable glass cannon build does not prove a point

Hitting 35k on a GSA with ALs disabled says something

Maybe it's souls of rhada, but it's easy to counter Ultima. It is impossible to counter ss

[crisp trout]

The problem with extremes is it tends to lean one way not doing the extreme to what you're countering lol

Rend/epee being a top one. Literally got turn 2 435k to the face the other day

[storm viper]

Without ALs

With ALs

Stats:

Issues with the above:

• I'm acting first every time
• Most opponents didn't attack on their turn
• These generally aren't the sort of opponents we're talking about; Only the Bwubble match that I lost and a few others were decent examples.

Kinda can't replicate the problem we're trying to describe properly but it's not like we're all collectively making it up 🤷🏾‍♂️

[shut temple]

any tl;dr on what's the current discussion?

[storm viper]

Crit Multipliers are soon to be nerfed as well, as I understand it, so even if this looks good it won't be entirely possible when the whole balance patch comes.

[main granite]

Tldr is that mages are squishy but don't necessarily hit as hard as other classes

Ultima is our hardest hitting skill, but can be countered pretty easily. Our other skills hit just as hard or less hard as skills from other classes (epee, HS3, etc).

SS3 and such are utter outliers that allow other classes to hit much harder than ultima while maintaining immense amounts of ward

I think S2ivi is speaking from the point of view of a class that has low resistance by default and gets hit hard by heretics

[storm viper]

The players in my region that I contend with almost daily never go down like the ones in my examples above.

I have to hope that I hit them at all, and that their AI makes bad decisions, and that the ones with Avidity don't get the proc 3+ turns in a row and that the Second Chancers don't get that Second , Third, or Fourth Chance.

I'm not surviving Rend, SS, HS3, Verse IV, or AV/Ultima from another mage lol

[main granite]

Basically every other class uses Physical moves. The meta generally revolves around SS3 and other physical skills; but heretics are easily countered if people want to

[storm viper]

Maybe the niche for Horvus can be a version of Omnimancy that only works against non-elemental and physical damage? 😅

(Why does Horvus not have Omnimancy or Efficacious, again?)

[vestal garnet]

Alright back

Full glass AL 0

Probably could get more with a better helmet

This is just turn 1 too

[main granite]

Horvus is missing:
-Life Siphon (tbf, mystic feather exists)
-Omnimancy
-Efficacious
-Steadfast 2 (has 1)
-Mana rush

Gains mystic feather (essentially useless on horvus), increase flask gain, and crit poise (kinda bad right now). And thief gear.

[vestal garnet]

Heretic is much much better at turns beyond turn 1

That is what is not included in any of this discussion but definitely should be

[storm viper]

The thing about "glass cannon" that we have an issue with is the glass part.

Unfortunately, that's difficult to replicate. I guess I could record sets where I use something like Ponder until I'm attacked?

[main granite]

Much better than what

[vestal garnet]

Other classes

For example. Here is turn 2

[storm viper]

Also can't replicate a fight against AL267 llrinll, who is someone I deal with/lose too very often.

But I suppose that's a rather specific scenario.

[vestal garnet]

Same gear turn 2

0 ALs

[vestal garnet]

That is most certainly an AL problem though not a heretic problem

[main granite]

Sure yeah, sigil stormflask is a good meme to use naked on turn1

[crisp trout]

Over 140 AL difference 👍

Could have died but look at that rend lmfao.

[main granite]

You're implying that taking a turn off on 1 into a turn 2 av3 is somehow a good strategy? Because other classes get free buffs or have better strats and deal mpre damage

Other classes don't need to take a turn off to do that

[vestal garnet]

This is the problem. The entire game isnt PVP

[main granite]

But we are talking about pvp

[vestal garnet]

And heretic can 1 shot anything it wants at any AL

In PVP

[crisp trout]

No it cant

[storm viper]

I can record myself trying AL50 boss hordes without any buffing as well, if that helps.

It won't last very long, I assure you lol

[vestal garnet]

@crisp trout ?
M1 of 2.7 here

[vestal garnet]

Anguish is about to change

Ss3 is busted - we know

[storm viper]

Fair point.

A Tower, then?

[crisp trout]

You stilll cant one shot everything. I can literally require 2 - 3 turns to kill when I don't go glass cannon

[vestal garnet]

This is getting very circular

[crisp trout]

Pure glass cannon*

[vestal garnet]

On offense all you need is glass cannon

[main granite]

You are taking screenshots of you mirroring yourself and saying heretic can oneshot anything

This is not evidence

[vestal garnet]

Im taking screenshots at 0 AL showing what the heretic potential is

[crisp trout]

Bruh no you don't. Second chance is so common

And you're dead. As well as parapet etc

[vestal garnet]

Rng related misses applies to everyone

That is not unique to heretic

[crisp trout]

Back to the extremes I see