Reworked Gods Classline

[torpid burrow]

I don't disagree with them. I just hope they are right.

I am really not looking forward to seeing the items, and discover it's an adorn that gives -atk -mag +1% apex cap.

[untold blade]

Imo i consider apex bad since the first week of beta. Anything in this game that need to "charge" is a bad idea anyway.
Now i just want it to release because of Dursa's new stats and dara easier blue line for endless. Lets just enjoy the few we get.

Having something as good as avidity or CD is far faaar away now anyway

[torpid burrow]

I don't dislike it. I never did. I complained about it being too slow to charge, and too little "oomp" for the trouble. It was supposed to be something akin to limit breaks from Final Fantasy games. But what we got was like... imagine we charged the limit breaker on FF, but the damage was less than the spell you use normally. It feels pointless.

[thorn yacht]

Just to sum up a certain line of my thinking, i think base or base and ara should have 25% chance to reduce cast time by 1 at full apex

Channeled skills are technically a large part of the class identity

[torpid burrow]

It's seriously underwhelming. I calculated 2000 Seals M1 to be around 1.2. Other people checked and said it sounded about right. This is a spell we get at the end of T10, it's supposed to be the last Apex, and it's about as strong as a T5 spell.

[untold blade]

Ohh, dont you like your manyalus that have a absolutly no reason to exist? Or this sweet Tdef/Tres one that also have no reason to exist either because of chanelalus ? Or all those sweet low damage spells 2000 something of something who also have no reason to exist after245?
Damn, even the naming of the spells is bad

[torpid burrow]

I don't dislike the idea of Apex. I was replying to your comment that you don't like charging skills. Your complaint is the same as mine. The spells are useless. They don't feel like an apex, at all.

But I said this a thousand times already. Since the first week of beta. The answer is always the same "play more, and the future items we don't know anything about will change everything."

[subtle anchor]

Underwhelming damage and penetration on apex abilities and even turn counts on things like Manyalus can be tweaked once there is more data on live (and I’d expect to see at least some tweaks)

Charge rates too

Hopefully buff duration caps as well

Reminder to all that it is shipping with the class rework coming up. A lackluster start buffed into a balanced spot seems reasonable even if maybe not as ideal as a perfect release

[torpid burrow]

I don't share your hope. I feel like Odie is very much set on the way things are now, he has his data, he knows why he made the decisions he made, and unless live data shows something completely unexpected, only small tweaks will happen, if any at all.
We may see some changes (hopefully) on DUrsa line, if he ever thinks of something to his liking.

[untold blade]

See. We're looping. So lets just wait for the release.

[torpid burrow]

Yes. I agree it's too late to change anything now.

[thorn yacht]

Deity could only justify itself over beoh with its buff procs closing the gaps of stats. It feels awful casting apex skills on dara that u dont want to cast, just to advance the apex meter, and then on top of that not get ur buffs to proc for the 2 turns you get them

Im also once again in a space on dara finding that if i could at least cast apex skills with 0 mana, then id have a niche i could play in

[torpid burrow]

Well, you don't need to blueline anymore with DAra. When I was testing, I built it so I'd have 100% mana most of the time.

[pure cove]

I am here once again asking for your support of PoG3 Dursa

[austere shuttle]

T9 AOE apex is supposed to help a little regarding this on dungeons horde runs

[untold blade]

How does it help ? Mage Dance and sweep are both a better option for horde , even at T9

Ah storma. Well, idk how fast apex charge at T9, but it really is a little help

[opaque chasm]

NF is generally veeery slow/hesitant to tune numbers on Live, and once we hit Live I also expect things to not change.

But I was under the impression that we would have another beta iteration with live characters (I think "Public Beta" is the right term?), and that's where balancing discussions would/should occur. Balancing discussions based on sandbox characters is somewhat meaningless.

But now I'm starting to realize that maybe this was a false impression. When Deity rework ships in a little more than a week, will that still be considered a form of beta, or more or less the finished version?

[torpid burrow]

I'm afraid that's it, unless the live data has some unexpected information.

[teal girder]

Just a bit sad as there was a point where we were all so excited! When manyalus + dursa could do some fun stuff, it was too strong but think we went too far in other direction. Will just have to wait and see 🙂

[pure cove]

this is exactly what I said I wanted to avoid when it was initially overperforming :/ I just want a damage reduciton removed tbh. then maybe 20% reduction or something on URsa iff desired

[opaque chasm]

That's concerning. I have intentionally stayed away from analyzing and discussing balance issues, because I thought it was premature. Now I fear it may be too late...

[hollow reef]

Private servers are used to identify balance issues before they go to live servers

[opaque chasm]

Thanks for clarifying. I don't remember how I got the impression that there would be a final "public beta" phase...

[subtle anchor]

When the big push for shipping it and tuning came up I think a lot of people speculated it might go to live beta

[fringe roost]

Although not in a beta state once the update goes to live, we are always ok with monitoring balance. This won't be the end of managing that over the years 🙂

One thing that's cool with a lot of these newer mechanics is once they are in the game, there's opportunities to building gearing to interplay with mechanics

[rose coral]

I complained a bunch about collateral damage when it first released, but after the introduction of new CD weapons and adornments it got a LOT better

[subtle anchor]

I stand by not wanting gear- maybe adorns. There aren't gear pieces that add more Bestial Bond stuff so Beo can continue to equip whatever they want. It would be cool to keep Deity the same 😎

Okay there is pet act and power gear but that can also be useful on most classes especially pet act

[fringe steppe]

There’s also gerd gear that boosts bestial bonds specifically 😅

[autumn nova]

That boost is kinda terrible, I use legs because they have decent stats and don't compete with better boni in that slot

[pure cove]

I am alright with gear and adorns for sure but I will echo what Erd is trying to say in that, part of Deity's Identity is being able to use and play however it wishes so having gear that could be tilted in a specific direction could remove that.

That said, I am okay with this as long as there are options. If we get a variety of things(whether armors, adorns, weapons, other Apexs ofc) with a variety of stat combos, purposes or bonuses(different pieces beneficial to Att or Mag or Ward etc) then I think it getting added to the arsenal is only a bonus. Something thats just a raw upgrade however(see: FSC) will make Deity less fun. If we get boots that give Apex in one turn(this an exaggerative hypothetical), it hurts Deity way more then helps as it murders a lot of build diversity. This being really bad as one of Deities defning characteristics is build diversity.

Comparing it to even Beo isnt a fair example as Beo has always been a pet class. Gilg got CD but always was a SS class. RS got Avidity but always was an M2 RNG machine(later becoming CS Dorado but this is still the same story just using meta ward gear). They all already had some quite particular playstyles that restricted their gearing options and having new gear either replaced or added new ones to the pile. Deity doesnt have that, so putting anything too busted means your pile goes down drastically whereas other classes didnt.

[pallid stump]

Being able to equip anything isn't really deity identity nowadays. Beo can do it to. And most classes have access to more option since celestial. Now I just hope we'll be able to manipulate charge rate and maybe god specific gear that gives access to new apex spell (like god of aaru but with apex) or maybe off hands even if they're not really meta.

[pure cove]

I listed why thats not really correct. Sure celestials open up some of that gearing but it doesnt allow them to alter play like you can on Deity. Even on Beo its gearing doesnt alter its play like it does on Deity as its a Pet class. If it does swap to damagin gear itd be for supplemental damage and Hydrus is literally just a Deity and is the only thing akin to how Deity plays gearing wise.

RS D will use some Warrior gear. Gursa may use some thief gear. HeraC will use some thief gear. But they dont become a totally different class and playstyle. RS D is the only one that can sort of claim this and even then its just a Gilga clone when it comes to gearing and playstyle except for shoving avidity and maybe some Dex in where available.

Gearing should still be a part of Deities identity to some regard. The moment you would take away alot of the build crafting fun by a hypothetical FSC equivalent ik I and many others wouldnt be nearly as interested in this class.

[lofty frost]

have you seen people that use them with a reason outside of i got nothing else for that slot, might as well ? exactly

[pure cove]

id love to hear any last second things people would like to address for Deity that hasnt beeen addressed or set in stone already

[finite berry]

Unique stat/gear interaction passive

[pure cove]

Agreed

[rose coral]

Imo these options would be far cooler than just relying on adornments to boost apex damage

[mystic basin]

Yes, i can imagine new apex skills with gear like the Aaru event

[subtle anchor]

The difference is those skills can be used on other classes where as Apex cannot so I doubt that is the route

[autumn nova]

If there is equipment that is Valhallan locked, not that is a problem for reworked celestial deities anymore, I don't see a problem in some piece of gear being deity locked

Even some equipment passives like collateral damage are class locked, labrys in the hands of a gilga is different from a labrys in anyone else hands (not sure if someone uses it for CD tho)

[pure cove]

I think God gear is a reality after rework. Shouldn't be all that common imo and should be pretty exclusive to thing actually effecting Deity abilities specifically.

[subtle anchor]

Okay if it is explicity Godclasses gear and decent I can't really complain. Though I'd still like to use all the gear I've already worked on 😛 but this is all just speculation at this point too and doesn't change the current issues 😬

[mystic basin]

I can also see a T9 specialization (Like Tamer for Valhallans and Benefactor for Summoners) focused on Apex, can be something simple as increase the charge limit by x% (so instead of haven 5 turns to load apex, it can be 3 or 4) 👀
The possibilities are big

[subtle anchor]

The fewer things that interact with it the more gear freedom we have though which I feel like should still be a goal

Hence adorns > gear
Weapons or accessories maybe

But there's so much vying for Heads, Chests and Legs

Okay- on a random thought what about the Essences dropped by Fallen Deities now interacting with Apex? Would make them actually useful/usable in theory

[pallid stump]

could be spells as accessories. Let you more open on gear, just have to give up you accessory for a giga spell.

[subtle anchor]

Giving up an Accessory slot would be alright as well.

Okay maybe I'm not completely opposed to gear. I need to find a new build anyway with the t.buff stuff right now

So....

Fallen Deity essence rework to first Apex items? 😄

[subtle anchor]

Also tiered Apex?
Either can cast an effect at 50% for lesser effect

Or can cast it at 33, 67 and 100 percent respectively making it a true Limit Break - Barrielus does t.Def/Res 1, 2, 3
Channelalus either does t.All1, 2, 3 or remains as only being castable at full
Neutralus does less damage
2000/1000 Seals/strikes deal less damage
AoE moves deal less damage

Manyalus is only castable at full or just removed?

Ursa doesn’t get extra turn unless cast at 100
Ara gets partial charge or no charge unless cast at 100

Might be moot point to suggest stuff right now but since Manyalus was brought up as a reason this wouldn’t work before and now isn’t particularly great, maybe it could be brought back to the table?

[sudden hazel]

Are we done with discussing about/testing current beta features? 🙂

[proper briar]

It'll be releasing in 1 week, so if any changes are made they'll be minor.

We can still discuss, but unknown if anything will make it into the game

[austere shuttle]

T9 apex AOE : one element
T10 apex AOE : auto target weakness (or no element)
What do you think about it ?

[subtle anchor]

I think just non-elemental at t10 sound great- also fits with the idea of abandoning the elements! Alternatively giving the t9 Gods a Celestial with the same non-elemental (or all the elementals?) could help those worried about the itty bitty classchange hassle

[austere shuttle]

As Manyalus seems to be a debatable mechanic according to several previous comments, what about offering ability to cast this powerful T10 all/non elemental skills several time in a row ?

[pure cove]

D u r s a P o G 3

[proper briar]

For everyone else, it's a meme

[pure cove]

calling PoG3 a meme is a criminal offense. Its always been a serious suggestion >:(

[hollow reef]

To break down why PoTG III is not desired:

1. It does not include any playstyle differences, which was the goal of the celestials
2. Everyone at celestial endgame is likely defeating sufficient bosses/day to keep PoTG at max charge
3. Knowing #2, it ultimately is just a straight stat buff

imo, Deity does not need a massive stat buff to make it more interesting/give it identity

[pallid stump]

PoG was just a name, the real call was for something available turn 1 to go with dursa fast gameplay.
I do understand your position on PoG (even tho I don't really agree that it's a problem considering 2 existing celestial classes have such passive).
We couldn't find a better alternative that was matching your idea of the class so be it. We lived (difficultly) with purple line for years anyways and dara passive, even if some are not really happy with it) is a step in the right direction.

Now I'm just praying for some gear that would change how apex is perceived RN.

[autumn nova]

2. applies to most of charged passives tho

[pure cove]

I wont argue that PoG makes or breaks Dursa. I believe, thematically, it feels right on the class. It continues in the vain of allowing Dursa to feel like a hard hitting/fast moving variation. I believe this also gives a bit more creedence to Dara since the longer the battle goes it makes Dara more appealing then Dursa but isnt divisive in the sense that you cant use either for short or long.

Adressing the specific points:

1. I quite strongly disagree with this. I very rarely use redline and although there can be some content I can try and justify it(namely horde/prang) it is often unnecessary or a needless booster. I can understand it can help lower levels but persoanlly I feel the content it effects is very small and the effect for the majority of players will be minimal or short lived in the grand scheme.

On the other hand, PoG allows for raw stat buffs which does mean you can play more aggresively in different scenarios. Something like tower battles you are now hitting harder and surviving better right off the rip. Thus giving you more potential to try and finish a battle fast as opposed to lasting longer like Deity already does at base or playing the long game that Dara is already good at. I am not going to go super in depth as I have obviously not been able to play with it so it is largely speculation but I have the feeling it would be more impactful to my gameplay and when trying to play it out for other scenarios I feel Dursa benefits more from a straight stat buff at base instead of a larger stat buff that you are putting major effort into.

2. I agree but I think that is really any charge skill. When at T10/Endgame no charge skill is really going to be difficult to charge. If this is a desired addition I think that maybe having a different quantity or goal to charge it would be fine.

3. With things like BeoH I dont think this is that silly of an ask. I am cognicent of these being very different classes with T. Buffs and Hybrids as seperaters and I...

prefer having identity in my classes too. But I think the fact that myself and many others agree that Redline or even lopsided purpleline is almost always going to see little to no use for the vast majority of players itd be better to have a smaller raw stat buff then to have something thats liable to never serve a purpose to the class. I feel strongly the current lines only purpose we may see is hitting early-middle endgame players who are trying to BoF carry/Prang50 and have just a little too low of stats or missing one or 2 quintessential pieces of gear. Thus this helps... until a couple ALs or just getting that last piece then its irrelavent.

An example I think serves as a fair point to my arguement is... In my beta testing when I was labbing different ideas where redline is achieved(and also specifically playing to activate my blueline too) I wasnt changing my gameplay at all. I was just seeing my numbers that are already killing just killing harder(Hitting nearly 300k Arrowstorms with Bri bow and this was WITHOUT any elemental play lol, just base damage and gearing, ofc on BoF so this means I egt PR on top of this). Thus this only hits a small niche of players in the awkward tweener stage and I would think it could be used against dragon events due to huge health bars(which Dara was and would be good at). So its doing next to nothing. PoG3 can allow for you to have less setup. Try to tackle larger challenges due to having a stronger baseline. And overall fit the theme of Dursa better giving us a happy medium a more endurance feel and a more fast acting feel while maintaining all forms of Deity being good in all content to varying degrees.

Before I forget I want to add that this also helps address a bigger point of contention for lots of us endgame Deities.

Deity tends to be one of the slowest raiders due to no buffs effecting short term gameplay. No fast stat like Gilg, no Crit boost like Hera/RS, no big number like BeoH or blue dog, No BP nuke. Deity stays one of the slowest core raiders. It's good and balanced in the medium to long term but underwhelming compared to every other class in the short term. A raw stat boost on Dursa also helps us endgame players to better contest in this area.

I also want to remind that PoG3 doesn't have to be the only solution but it's the most practical considering ease and implementation. But something to assist short term content and especially fast raiding would be appreciated by many.

[opaque chasm]

👍

[finite berry]

If purpleline is a 1 on scale of 1-10 in terms of what I would deem as good for the class playstyle, I would put PoG as a 2. I guess thats saying something 🤷‍♂️

[hollow reef]

Arguably a tad less, but regardless - both chargeables in T10/T11 (Gilga Ursa and Beo Hydrus) cap at 20% stats. PoTG III would need to beat PoTG's 40% cap, meaning we're looking at a straight +40-50% stat boost. I really don't see that as a fair comparison, and is a pretty wild power buff to the class

[pure cove]

Given my reply above and my agreeance, doesn't it feel like something is warranted? I hate to constantly press this issue but it seems so resoundingly desired to have something other then the traditional lining mechanics. And additionally 1. Something quick that could be thematic with Ursa. 2. Something that can assist in faster short term raiding? Can even go for a lesser PoG I suppose? Or PoG3 has a lower bonus(same as PoG2 perhaps) but something else in addition. I feel even things like a Critical Hits 2, Life Siphon, and combos of things like this would be appreciated. It's still not great or ideal but atleast I could see it altering the gameplay or gearing and assisting with a pain point.

I feel so many legit and viable ideas have been floated but we are settling with something people are largely displeased with but can settle with. If its a done deal its a done deal but I suppose the reception I have heard beyond here and my interaction with it through a variety of gameplay makes me feel its ultimately a nonfactor in Ursa's kit. So much so that removing it and putting nothing in its place wouldn't alter much for most players.

[hollow reef]

If we see something warranted after some time in live, then of course we can revisit.

At this point, we have so many changes in this patch that do not have meta validation. I don’t believe throwing one more new mechanic into the wild is the best idea atm

[pure cove]

Fair enough, I just hope that revisit won't be too long off if the wide reception tends to be what it is now. 🙏 Appreciate atleast the discussion and willingness to reassess down the road.

[finite berry]

Can we throw Dursa into the wild without purpleline and just with nothing to see how it goes?

Nobody seems to want that passive, and we definitely don't need an alternative that is stronger on paper.

Priority is long-term fun factor.

[gilded shadow]

giving deity a lesser version of every other class (CD, avidity etc) in very very weak, but we could adjust to what we want to focus on with the adornments for those passives.

That would be how i want to play my deity. A true Hybrid of Trades, master of none

ive spent the last 20 MInutes reading the walls of text from Higsby and, as an ASC 80 Deity player:

• I agree Dursa would profit from beeing another BeoH GMursa
• i would love the class in general to have ACCESS to things like Avidity, CD etc - but just the access. And we can, with adornments or maybe even a toggle mechanic / spell chose if we want one of those.

Since i didnt get a mirror so far i couldnt test much, only with my ~2 year old mirror, and i think, yes compared to the absolute broken mess avidity is or the straight forward buff that colleteral damage presents, Apex in its current state is not great. But hey, we got time to adjust it, fingers to type and choice to make as a community.

Also huge thanks for the ara lining passive change

[pure cove]

This is always a point I disagree with more then any other point. I currently think one of my biggest disdains with current Orna is how much class barriers, variety, role play, uniqueness has just been shattered. Current reworks are sort of solving this issue. I still think the skill end is the real crime as gameplay doesn't change a lot even with these new mechanics due to how uniform all skills and att/Mag have become.

That all said taking any of the unique passives is a horrendous idea as it immediately goes back to dismantling those walls that have begun construction. I hate it wholeheartedly and I think it wouldnt even be fun and make Deity super boring. Apex is a good mechanic and baseline and thematically works well.

[thorn yacht]

Its kinda weird cause i really like dursa on beta rn, and feel like theres something i dont get about ppl saying dursa needs more. Theres some awkward aspects of the kit, like redline, but at least unlike beoa we have 2nd chance

Ara is the one that feels not quite finished. When dursa casts 2000 seals, it gets a free turn after. Ara is just casting to slightly advance a stat boost. Which feels poorly before considering the new value of temp buffs relative to wasted turns.

Theres a few things i cant test much on beta. But one things i think ara really needs is like a spell that outright costs 2k mana. Dawdling to blueline takes the longest of anything, and daras mana pool gives opportunity to make mana prohibitive spells. I can use a max mp amity to blueline from there if need be

[pure cove]

Dara doesn't have blueline...

[thorn yacht]

So this is the first time i realized demig-ara is now the apex buff replacing blueline. Thats not great.. i guess ill look again with this in mind

I suppose compared to blueline its better not having to worry about healing. Though it seems dursas redline should work like this before daras blueline.

[gilded shadow]

I cant disagree more. I think that a conglomerate of all possibilitys as a class which got called the jack of all trades, master of none is a nice idea.

I agree to the part that the class reworks are solving an issue, beeing outdated gameplay mechanics - what do you mean with "skill end"?

And i dont mean taking any, i mean taking all and making then barely existant - but giving you the option, for example with adornments that buff colleteral, beeing able to perform colleteral.

Apex is great and all, i like the idea, tho in its current state, theres more to wish for. I dont think thats a bad idea at all, its a bandaid fix, but nontheless a fix.

[gilded shadow]

Blueline got removed for getting stronger when using apex skills

[hollow reef]

The issue with the conglomerate is that they all need to have paltry values in order to be relatively balanced against other classes. These small values are then just too inconsistent to rely on the passives for any content

The adorns likely wouldn’t make it for that without then buffing the values, which benefits other classes more than deity.

I think we’re at the point where identity and uniqueness are really important to the classlines, Gods included. Blurring the lines and giving cross classline access to what makes these classlines unique just causes additional crave for identity

[finite berry]

Agree with odie here
I believe classline identity has been achieved, if not knocked out of the park. Awesome job NF!
I still just feel that celestial differences are either insignificant or don't present any actual differences in builds or playstyle tbh.
When I look at which class I want to ascend, I look at celestials and what unique playstyles I can mix and match between the 3 available classes. Don't feel like this has been truly achieved yet. Lots of minor differences to shroud the true fact that they aren't very different.

[thorn yacht]

I disagree, the free turns on dursa and the intersection it has with bof is pretty distinct, and has largely gotten rid of the resentment i had of rs. Ara conversely seems to have a very different pace and expectation from it's skillset, even if that pace still yet feels a bit too dullish. I dont have a mirror so a lot of my expectations are still theoretical, though still tested on beta

Id oddly like base to still be incentivized, because dc as a buff is still peculiarly hard to imitate by other classes, and rather feel they are trying to deincentivize it's use

Either way, dursa alone, along with the slew of other objectively beneficial additions to deity, make me feel it's ok to ship. Funnily dara not feeling functional is something ive already come to normalize. Ive already mentioned what i think it can use, but thats everyone

[finite berry]

Realm base vs RealmD. Gilga base vs GUrsa. Build entirely different and completely out of the box from original classline, yet relevant and super fun classes.
Deity celestials didnt really get that in this iteration. Just my take. Ara would have been an acceptable -similar- celestial like realmC or GilgaH. Thus wish Ursa was the wildly different one here.

[pure cove]

This. Base, Dara, Apex are all good in my opinion and are wonderful additions. Ursa however I feel just lacks any identity. It's just sort of a Deity+ in some areas and that's it. Not bad but not really fun or engaging.

[limber lily]

Well, then you have Ara different and Ursa similar as realmC and GilgaH? 🤔

[subtle anchor]

I'm realizing that the design space of high stats + Steadfast + Second Chance + Equip everything really does make it harder to balance things up and down. I doubt there's much to be done in that regard now but I'd be interested to see which scales of those four things could maybe be tilted to open up a bit more room on passives or otherwise on the celestials.

I know both Celestials already have Steadfast II to Steadfast I on beta and on live no Valhallan gear

To Higsby's point, I'd say Ursa feels loaded even if the battle passive feels out of place and Ara is the one I think is missing a piece. But that's of course just my opinion and I'd happily see both get a small tweak somewhere in the name of flavor/fun even if that tweak did end up restricting their gearing a little

[pure cove]

Thought this for a minute and just typed a bit elsewhere...

In the same way RS D trades offensive capabilities to fix its front loaded weakness maybe Ursa can drop some of that trademark Deity defenses for offensive ability. Lose SF2, SC, Purple line, and x def/res. gain -> something that is a pretty substantial offensive buff. things that ARENT BORING STAT BUFFS. Think like dodge chance, hit chance, status removal of Dorado but in an offensive sense. Crit chance, Critical Damage, Debuff Application, Chance to hit again, Chance to penerate ward, DW boost etc etc.

[limber lily]

Yea, and that's why I'm saying it pretty much follows all other classes template. They have a base, an upgraded base (realmC, gilgaH, beoA, ...) and one different class (realmD, gilgaU, beoH, ...).

[pure cove]

Dursa isn't really much of an upgrade like the others serve to be and more then that its fairly Att specifc AND it's a + in most areas that don't need it.

[subtle anchor]

I highly doubt it would fly at this point but what if Ara stayed largely as is on beta but lost Thief + Valhallan Gear and had an extra effect of some kind added?

And Ursa like you said lost something else to help offload giving it early power as a straight buff??

[pure cove]

Dara might not be slap you in the face different or obvious but it's is extremely strong at ehat it aims to do, which is being an endurance class. This fits into gameplay well, fits with the other celestials, gives it a purpose amd identity with gameplay that is surprisingly enjoyable when you are able to make use of it. I dont feel Dara needs looked at and if more magey mage stuff was desired I just feel Heretic is a better option.

Ursa isn't weak but it fails to hit many pain points and strongly lacks a uniqueness or playstyle that feel different and enjoyable. Thus I see it needing addressed, and I dont want a buff. I want a trade, personally. That trade gives us the quick class and gives us an assist in all the content its meant to shine in AND help us in shorter term raids as we gave been desiring alot.

[subtle anchor]

Ara doesn't have to be more mage-y. It could just have an extra effect elsewhere. I.E one version of it had doubled mana costs but spells hit extra targets

I do look forward to seeing someone break floor 1500 on Ang 50 Endless with it if that can actually be done on any non-summoner class.

[pure cove]

Fair I just mean more in the sense that I don't feel it's logical it need another effect when other celestials exist just like it and serve a purpose and the other Deity celestial seems to pretty widely accepted as not good on the fun or unique scale.

Dara is no RS D or Gursa but it is a good and useful class that has been fun to use in what it's meant to be used for. Dursa on the other hand is the opposite, even when I use it in the content it excels at there is nothing fun or unique. I just see what was a big number get bigger. Often meaning my overkill number is now overkilling more. Nothing really fun, unique, enabling, different about that.

[crude elm]

Doesnt Ursa or celestial deity in General already have a class defining mechanic? The T buffs? They Just ramp Up to slow (Main Problem) and Run out to fast. T buffs plus apex Sounds Like a great Setup in my ears. No other buffs needed. Maybe only "more Power" which live will Show?

[thorn yacht]

Ironically dursa has become my class of choice on live for short raids. I have it hitting ~2m US with kerb align on turn 0, redline. Rs does everything dursa can do concerning raids better, except have the def, immunity and 2nd chance to actually solo raids with 1 hp. The dodge rates are similar too

Dursas ability to intentionally take 2 damaging turns is wholly unique, For as many turns as rs/bof takes, none of them are intentional. And the options it has with manylus are interesting, complementing the skill slots on deity.

Dursa seemed to lose some mana on beta? Which has made mana a recurring issue unlike live, but rs has that too. The cost of dursas spells has inflated at the same time, though mitigated by its ability to benefit off manylus+recharge/guarding strike/ward of light etc. again things like amities and gear have prohibited me from really knowing what to expect on live

Once again suggesting for ultima/s to be a switch apex skill that can be cast with -1 turn at full apex

[pure cove]

Yup which is why I have continuously said we dont need a Dursa buff. I generally have hit even harder on Dursa or Base being able to dmg cap US in 3 or 4 turns iirc with some duo but thats one off and very fickle strats. Making the comment you can get a fat US off because of second chance means you entire strat is reliant on SC which is still RNG lol. Not at all ideal and even then that damage really isnt impressive compared to equally ascended/geared any other class. Dodge rate on Dorado would be higher and doesnt require redline for most to achieve and has auto ward and has crit. Mana is an issue at lower ALs that is easily resolved at higher ALs depending in builds. Dursa mana is comfortable accross the board and post rework even with like 30 Crimsons with quality you can still be fine which is somewhat enabling but just barely so and specific entirely to BoF raiding(which isnt that necessary nor viable anymore)

Dursas real issues.... again. Is its identity. Never once have I argued that its useless or wont see play. But its not fun or engaging to play like many other celestials and even Dara it just does some Deity stuff in very specific situations better and thats it. Not in a fun or different manner, just stacks buffs a bit different and better at Buff apexs, thats it. We already have Dara being a pretty baseline Deity with some changes to be stronger in some areas and weaker in others which we agree is good and in line with celestials that currently exist.

This all culminating to the ask for a celestial that "breaks the mold" like: Gursa, RS D, BeoH, Hera Corv to a degree etc. Something that really feels like its changing that Deity gameplay from what base and Dara are already doing. And my suggestion is not meant at all to be a buff but a manner to achieve said goal. Deities defense and abilites to support its defense arent very deep in its identity but have been consistent. So a celestial flipping that on its head into a heavier offense focus is welcome

Which is also managing to tackle the point of allowing a way to better compete in a world where every other class has a manner to pump some huge numbers fast to help clear raids and we dont. If we lived in a pre towers world where classes had downsides I would not actually argue this point. But post towers between Celes, Weps, and new events, Deity is the only class that continues to underperform in this area as a result of the thing I previously mentioned being available to other classes but nothing of the kind on Deity. Leaving it to consistently lower damage and even if it can barely hit higher damage its at a massive risk compared to the others that could hit those same benchmarks with next to 0 risk.

[hollow reef]

imo, if you lean into DUrsa’s kit, especially paired with BoF, it feels very similar to the RS/RSD transition

I play both celestials much differently than base, and I do believe we’ll be seeing players do the same in live

[pure cove]

I am happy to hit live and allow it time to play but my arguement continues to remain the same. Dursa isnt playing bad or wrong and ofc it takes good advantage of PR with some T. % on kill(largely a horde specifc use case as %s still felt very uncommon in towers f.e.) and Deity has always been an amazing swash vehicle.

But everything done here is done on base. It now hordes better with T.s and DC access but thats about it. And in a CS world, which is a possible subject to change, it towers better. But 1. It isnt that drastic since Hordes have been a 1 shot fest for a minute for the vast majority of players 2. Base is still doing towers in the same sense and its Auto DC is essentially Ursa channel(which has the downside of losing a decent bit of T.s including T. Att2 instantly due to their super low duration).

Then the big part is, partly because this is all done on base with very little difference, its not unique or engaging to do. Everything it does in beta it does in live, its just doing it a bit better and Channel can enable some power gain but its not playing differently just stronger. Dursa fails to hit any pain point for Deity and sort of strengthens areas it wasnt really bad at in the first place. I feel its an amazing platform/jumping point. It has the start of something but I feel its like almost there but misses a gimmick or something to play around or get invested in.

As a long time RS, using Dorado was such a cool experience just like Roleplay and gameplay wise. I know several Gilgss that enjoyed Gursa(even before CD or it becoming much more meta relavent) as it was fun to be using Thief gear and doing non SS gameplay. Deity does not have this. Base is great, Dara is a good interpratation of a slightly altered Deity that is fun to play in that content it strives in, truly fun. But playing Dursa I felt nothing different to live for most things and the difference I did feel was getting hit a bit less hard and hitting a bit harder.

Imaging a world where it gets a substantial crit chance boost is sweet because it allows a whole new world of gearing and dropping the massive stat debuffs of ashens.

Imaging a world of Life Siphon and some raw stats is cool because we dont have to ride a line to feel we are taking advantage of our kit and play more into that Deity steadfastness.

Imaging a world of a uniuque gimmick like Dorados Gilga impression, Gursas SS abandonment, Hydrus' selfishness is so much fun to me. Allowing us to kind of throw that traditional Deity out the window and go all in on something massively different is awesome, especially taking advantage of something beyond apex so its more practical across the board in all game play.

I mentioned things like the heavy offense, we could get something like the Ursa 2H but maybe more signifcant like DW melee with some sequencer vibes. DW a melee and magic weapon like sword and staff for unique chnages like a spellblade. I feel there are so many ways to give us a Dursa that has a proper identity and changes the way we are playing in atleast some areas and to even address issues the class still faces post rework like Dara and parts of the rework did. I dont think youll be hearing excessive complaints of Dursa, but I dont feel there is ever going to be much hype to it or excitement to it beyond "Wow instead of my CS overkilling by 50-100k it overkilled by 500+K" "Wow instead of my sweep or arrowstorm overkilling by 50K it overkilled by 250K" Fun for one off screenshots, thats about it.

[finite berry]

If temp buffs could be manipulated for quick encounters that would be welcomed. The issue with temp Buffs is where do we Really need them? Raids and endless are all that stand out to me. I like where your head is at though

[teal girder]

my only issue with temp buffs too is that as an identity its quite, er "weak" ? for lack of a better word? like im pretty sure every class has access to the same temp buffs as us, with the difference being we passively sometimes get DC (they use pet or the spell itself) and we will be getting staying power? please correct me if im wrong, or maybe thinking about it the wrong way

[finite berry]

I would agree that apex plays differently on Ursa, but the rest of the class is identical honestly. And the apex differences only really help horde, which is already easy

Based on my testing it doesn't feel much different given that it doesnt actually move the needle much on horde

[austere shuttle]

(Horde deity is not that easy on live when you're running anguish)

[finite berry]

I really dont wanna bring anguish back into the discussion 😅

We proposed it once yeah. The randomness would have to be more consistent for it to be more usable

On the note of forcing attk vs mag celestials, why cant we trade gear restrictions for fun interactions?

Where everyone else gets more variety when previously very restricted before Celestials, why not the opposite for Deity

[austere shuttle]

On the Dursa most likely yes. Dara, not that sure, but will see

I know yes

[pure cove]

lol and yeah ang horde isnt that difficult. ALs being a sliding scale for time investment and setup requirement but Prang50 CS is veeery easily accesible imo just slowe compared to others and Ang horde in general seems quite strong post rework, more then it already was

[pure cove]

I still feel this isnt the best thing to lose but I can see it as a reasonable trade on something like Dursa, though my main appeal to Deity was theorycrafting and a total lack of gear restriction

[austere shuttle]

That's what I m talking about, access with CS is not that hard it's totally true, but it's slow and I never had fun with it as we don't have avidity or CD.

[finite berry]

Which no restriction already exists on base

Gives base some more worth

[austere shuttle]

It will IMO give access to higher anguish earlier too for low/mid AL players, but I doubt it will help high AL, I think I will most likely be little slower than I m currently. It should still be fine, will see when it will be live. Happy with the AOE as I asked for it 👍

[pure cove]

ik and we would have it on Dara, I just genuinely enjoy and take advantage of gear freedom on everyone. Losing it on one is entirely an idea I can get behind but its got to come with something truly unique and fun because losing total gear freedom takes a chunk of fun from the class. Needs to be replaced well to be worthy of that trade imo. Losing some stats or an ability or 2 is easier for me to cope with but I am happy for all of it to be on the table as offerings for something more unique and fun

[finite berry]

For sure. Id also agree with previous sentiment to get rid of sc / sf2 / purpleline etc. any other passives to balance out the uniqueness added

I still feel like tanky mage and glassy melee was the glory days of deity pre celestials. Ara somewhat lines up with tanky mage, which is super cool, and ursa would be cool as a glassy melee

[thorn yacht]

I see that odin got a turn and missed so the point isnt really demonstrated. The numbers go high though

[pure cove]

Ye I feel it could be lots of fun to have Dursa hit hard and fast. Especially if wee can get some unique, not game breaking new mechanic type unique, abilities akin to Dorado that allow us to just change our gearing and gameplay up. I mentioned some routes for that earlier and there is certainly a ton of other things that could be touched on. Just to throw another hat in that ring...
Ursa could now overcrit. Once over 100% crit chance you now have a chance to overcrit giving an even stronger crit modifier. Yet another method of buffing raid potential, namely early raid potential in a fun way thats unique plays different and allows for significantly different gearing

[pure cove]

look at bufflist, Odin hitting would do nothing if geared even remotely well

[finite berry]

For quick encounters it seems like a fun tradeoff to add higher risk with no second chance honestly. Sounds fun

[finite berry]

Yes abilities akin to dorado exactly.

Remove any combo of:

• Second Chance
• Steadfast
• Purpleline (especially)
• Gearing options (maybe just one line of gearing)

Add:
-passive similar in gameplay/gearing mentality to Dorado/Gursa/BeoH

[thorn yacht]

Overcrit already exists when you can just reallocate extra crit into other stats

[finite berry]

Love where this convo is going🍻

[pure cove]

Agreed I am happy there is a pretty unanimous voice here and much more constructive and positive commentary as to whats desired or what we all feel is a good addition and respeceting others etc. Much better then any doom and gloom or argumentative stuff <3

[finite berry]

I truly think this would solve all issues here

Give purpleline & second chance for ---something---
Several ideas proposed already so dont want to get into that part.

Stop getting me excited

[subtle anchor]

So following here-

Leave Ara as is

Leave base as is

Cannibalize one or two of Ursa's Second Chance/Purpleline passives or some stats for extra flavor/synergy with the rest of the kit?

I'd enjoy that

[autumn nova]

Purpleline and second chance are valuable enough to get something nice in return. On the offensive side I can think of:

• 2h/DW att bonus
• embedded swash passive
• that charging buff that cannot be said

[pure cove]

Yeah I try to remain as objective as possible and I think it's universal with all the voices that have spoke up that Dursa should change. Sacrificing stats, abilities, gearing all being on the table to give us a more unique and fun playstyle. Deity, Dara and apex are doing well and are well recieved by the vast majority and I feel certain people will enjoy and appreciate on live.

Those of us with substantial Deity experience from a wide range of ALs and gear and testing on Beta are unanimous in the desire to see Dursa change. Not in the manner of a buff. Change for the fun factor and allow it to stick out. Enough ideas have been floated and the direction is varied for what people want to see. Allow Odies to have a vision if he is receptive of our voices and let him come up with what we could get and we could go from there.

I am even happy to ship it as is so as not to cause anymore stress with the update right around the corner. If we could lock this thread and open a Dursa specifc one and we could Beta test some ideas going forward and then ship a better Dursa in the coming month or 2 following.

[finite berry]

Happy to ship Dursa as is tomorrow with this idea/opportunity in mind

We can probably end the discussion here seems like we have full alignment. Nothing much to be gained further

[hollow reef]

Yes, we can revisit if we really feel more is needed after some time in live.

At this moment, this is arguably the largest update to a class we'll be releasing to date. At some point, we do have to roll with the punches and prevent it from growing even more. Unfortunately, there is no meta in beta, so we won't be able to uncover all nuances to the changes here.

Happy to lock the thread and come back to this later, if we're all aligned

[austere shuttle]

So no shiny hat. Shame

[hollow reef]

Duelist -> Duel Hattist

Duel wielding hats

Yup, time to lock the thread