Reworked Gods Classline

[subtle anchor]

I'm less concerned with Ara not getting to fire off its passives in raids than that Apex's primary method of charging is taking damage.

Deity is pretty decent (in all 3 versions) at mitigating or not taking much damage- especially when t.Buffs (the other identity of the class) help further increase defense and resistance. This makes Apex somewhat difficult to charge on any given content for any of them (less so on Ursa).

But that could all be mitigated as Apex charging is finalized/ironed out the rest of the way.

Maybe a move that just charges your apex extra might be interesting/help?

[subtle anchor]

A second smaller thought is that Ara's proc ability is really cool but revolves around Apex casts as well. If that's not getting used, that feels a bit like a waste of a neat passive!

I still like this version of Ara. I'm just looking for smoothing out its wrinkles

[austere shuttle]

Then again, AOE apex or auto stat boost every time your apex is full and I would be fine with mage deity 🙏

It would be really nice and offer some new perspectives, and it's not that big of a change, as it keeps some identity differences for all deity classes.

[hollow reef]

Personally, I’m not too fond of either potg or reverse redline after playing with them. The former doesn’t offer a gameplay change as it only involves a horde boss dungeon or two, and the latter most effectively supports turtling. Potg is also a PvP nerf

I do think we’re close - eventually we’re just going to need to yell “ship it” and let the meta play out before we can really see the impact of everything

[finite berry]

In hindsight of that original suggestion, I kind of agree. Just trying to think of a stat scaling passive that is more in line with what ursa is shaping up to be. Appreciate you testing this out👍

I wish Ara passive were more usable in raiding. That and a better Demigod passive for Ursa that is more in line with its playstyle and I say ship it.
Still shippable as is though, fwiw

[austere shuttle]

Then we'll see 🙂 We all have some hopes and concerns (and I m for now really suspicious about mage deity as you know 😋), but I really appreciate the effort and work done managing a class rework while there are so many other things to do at the same time. So thank you Odie, NF and everyone here for the talks, as we all care about this game and deity ! 🍻

[finite berry]

What if the ursa reverse redline only boosted attk/mag to prevent turtling?

This would somewhat line up with our previous ideas of 'glassy melee' and 'tanky mage', which were the keystone playstyles of Deity pre-celestials? As Ara somewhat trends that way with Barrialus already.

[pallid stump]

I think the main point is not really that people want potg, but more that we don't like redline and rather take anything else. I'd rather get the old purpleline than the new redline.

[woven kayak]

I'd propose Resurgence 2 maybe if we really want to stay at redlining?
Reason being: redlining is inefficient without HT, which base RS and Corvus has, with Resurgence 1, but Dorado doesn't, and it also has Resurgence 2, prolly to counteract that

[pallid stump]

Redline can be used in raids and dungeons, you just need time to set up, but how does redline help in tower or monuments ? It doesn't.

[coral rock]

I'm fine with how Ara is doing now.
But you shouldn't discard the idea of ​​an AOE apex skill so that Ara can also be played in Horde content. In my opinion, this skill doesn't even have to be outstanding, it just has to serve its purpose of giving Ara the charge without losing a turn in dungeons.

I have no idea what I think of Manyalus

Ursa's Demigod passive feels out of place for this class. Overall, I don't think I use Ursa much in his current state (perhaps because I'm a big fan of base deities). If Ursa is our horde content class (or at least that's what the extra proc chance on kill tells me), I think we need a passive that requires less or no setup.
I can't see any upgrade for towers, which in my opinion is the engame content that supports character development the most. And I won't use Redline in dungeons because I'll be faster if I just don't.
PotG3 would at least be an upgrade for towers (and in my case dungeons too). (Perhaps we can think of something other than PotG or Reverse Redline if Odie doesn't like it, I just call it that for easier understanding)
I don't even know that PotG is a PvP nerf, because in the current 1-shot meta there would be a place where you could start pumped, wouldn't you say? If it's a PvP nerf, I just play base.

I just think PotG supports a different playstyle for Ursa!

Base: line with HP/MP
Ara: line with Apex
Ursa: no line/start with a line that is not as strong as others

[subtle anchor]

I'm inclined to suggest weird other ideas and/or just let Odie come up with something else, leave as is, or revert to Ursa purple from before

[austere shuttle]

Shiny hat for Dara and Shiny big sword for Dursa 👌

[opaque chasm]

Is that intended? Earlier Odie said it should be affected by uptime amity.

[shrewd cedar]

Base: stat boost per turn, capped at 10-12 turns?

• In PVP charges faster, Lowe cap
• In PVE (dungs) drops to half cap each floor

Ursa: stat boost per dmg taken? Fade partialy after no dmg taken for couple of turns
?

[subtle anchor]

Base: No, thank you. Base doesn't need anything. If it had to get something I would vote for Channelalus to do something other than DC to make it feel slightly less weird

Ursa: that runs into the same issue apex charging has of all the t.buffs making it fairly difficult to take damage unless you ignore trying to defend yourself or are going swash. It also doesn't really address the short and sweet fights that Ursa is sort of built around now on beta.

[shrewd cedar]

Purpleline is sad imo, really don't like to control hp/mp during raids with 3 zerks
Channelalus - Yes, it could do something nice for base
Chance to trigger buffs and passives?

[subtle anchor]

I don't think base needs any changes beyond what is currently on beta and there are now two Deity classes without purplelining for anyone who dislikes that particular passive

[teal girder]

Please don't tie anything too much to taking damage, having to lower stats to increase stats is incredibly unintuitive, best saved for specialisations like swash. You shouldn't be punished for increasing your AL etc

[limber lily]

Can we release it already? I need to farm orns.

[void inlet]

the nerf today seems too much tbh

[odd quest]

U dont wanna know what he's planning with that orn

[prime mountain]

Where did he say that?

[pallid stump]

here

[pure cove]

Before anything, I would like to agree and state again that I do feel like this is super close to shipping. Right now it just feels like working out the kinks to avoid future retouching being needed so soon but ofc sending it live allows for muuuuch better testing so there is nothing wrong there.

I feel PotG is more impactful then just hordes. As far as I understand it, it would be a 50-60% raw stat boost off the rip. I see this being beneficial or desirable in the content I would be wanting to use Ursa for in the first place, further cementing and validating it in the short form content. Shorter world raids, kraid taps, some horde capabilities, Towers/Monument battles, World Farming and even sillier less notable things like Amity hunting, Fishing, World bosses with Anguish are all more effective by having a starting stat boost. Sure it doesnt effect PvP but this seems to be a foot note to most people as I am happy for my actual gameplay to benefit if my PvP is less effective. Especially since this is a celestial class and I have my other options as is.

Since I mentioned I am a fan of other mechanics and youd mentioned you have tested reverse redlining I will throw out some similar concepts or attached ideas I had to that since I thought of the reverse idea for Deity rework a bit back. I feel some of these may verge on oddlly complex or awkward but if PotG isnt desirable then they could be considerations.

Reverse redlining could be maybe more of a token system? To prevent early turn turtling and also avoiding the class needing to start at lower HP(like you would see in Gilga/Ward gameplay) there could be a system that every turn you are above, say 50% HP, you get a stack or token this increasing your stats like any other passive. [All just spitballed numbers but you could make whatever] But it could work as such, when the battle starts you will gain the token on the start of your turn to give a boost right away or after turn if you dont want it to accrue so fast. Each token will give maybe ~25% stats. As long as you stay above 50% HP your next turn you will get another token up to 50%. However, if you are to dip below whatever HP marker is set(50% in this example) you now lose 1 token and if your next turn comes and you are still below 50% you will lose another. I think around a 75% stat boost is fair in this and could even implement a small HP gain if youd wanted to make it feel more synergistic or provide stronger identity in this.

Reverse lining could still exist as well within the same realm as current Gilga mechanics which was my original idea, just with mana. Boost Ursa's HP again but make it start with less HP, whether thats 50-60ish% or so. Thus starting with little passive but once you max it out then you are getting a good stat passive without too much excessive work for upkeep. Since u arent actively using HP like ward you could have an HP drain or HP drain on Attack skills and then maybe disable it when the Apex meter is full. This gives a quicker access passive that is still something that requires work to make use of, aswell as making it not busted for PvP. The boost would also prob be in that 50-60% realm

Apex lining is also a suggestion that would be in line with identity but does punish Apex use a bit but depending on the gameplay could be seen less as punishing and more as a trade off/debate(when done well I think players love this, making a decision to either use a big move/buff or keep your stats up). Since Apex is meant to charge faster then having your stats scale with it allows you to charge you stat passive pretty quick still. I guess this would also make it akin to Ara in that their stats scale off Apex just in opposite manners which is sort of cute. I would only worry that Apex charge can be inconsistent depending on content so this could feel like a passive we dont get to touch too often in that short content. Happy to continue spitballing if its worth but no more room on this message :P

[pallid stump]

holy shit, please add a tldr

[proper briar]

Tl;dr Higsby explains in detail balanced feelings on each type of possible stat boost

[pure cove]

to add btw I think these more awkward or weird passives are more digestible with in game passives being shown to the player so maybe they wouldnt feel as weird.

[autumn nova]

The token system is a cool idea but might need some balancing (with rubies is very hard to end turn below 50% hp)

[pure cove]

I think its hard to balance around content and playstyle truthfully. Maybe a lower stat% makes more sense then under that context. At decent risk T1 but ig I was sort of thinking in line with PvP which I have already said I dont care much about. I suppose for most PvE you can T1 WoO and then use whatever HP recovery to stock back up.

edit: made it lower and elss concrete

[coral rock]

I just hope we get something that will make us better in shards/min in towers...

[pallid stump]

but you'd need a ruby. the current best build (CS) don't have room for ruby.

[limber lily]

also ruby is 50% chance to proc for 2% dmg heal ...which is enough heal only when you are fully buffed hard hitting ...so ... endless, raids ... or horde (where you want to spend as few turn as possible to buff anyway, so heal isn't skyrocketing)

[lofty frost]

there's a life siphon amity bonus

[pallid stump]

life siphon ? I know of regen and recharge but not life siphon. But anyway amity is too valuable to sacrifice for that.

[opaque chasm]

Siphoning is the Amity name

[lofty frost]

not really, you can fit like a 5 ward regen + life siphon amity for CS builds, you just need to roll dem seeds

[finite berry]

I love the ideas, but simplicity is elegance with these passives (and more doable for the devs!)

You had other ideas in Deity OL chat. You should share some. Thats how we got reverse blueline in the past which i thought was cool.

I agree though, with pretty much everyone here- something more interactive than PotG, but more in line with DUrsa playstyle than Resurgence in current setup.

Ideas:

• Reverse redline that only affects Attk /Mag to prevent turtle
• Resurgence that starts at 100% HP (not ideal, but better)
• Higher HP Stat = higher attack/mag
• No passive, just Much higher base stats. Maybe reduce base def/res and increase base attk/mag
• 'first turn in fight, attack is juiced by x%'
• playing without a shield increases damage by X% (rewards 2h builds in a sense, but does not restrict to anything)
• at 75-100% HP, gain attk/mag, and at 0-25% HP, gain def/res ('splitline', more manageable with higher HP pool)

All of these are in line with quick encounter fights

[opaque chasm]

I just want to reinforce the sentiment that Ursa needs something in place of Resurgence to help with short content.

[coral rock]

If we get just higher mag/att in some way it feels too much like BeoH imo.
And I would like to have increased def/res too... For the sake of anguish towers.

[austere shuttle]

Divine vengeance/god's hand = high chance of counterattack on every opponents that deals damage to you. Massive damage and rate on first turn of the battle. Only available in PvE.

@limber lily we ll miss you 👋

[subtle anchor]

I find "splitline" pretty interesting on paper at least

Other oddball ideas:
-"When equipped with less ward, your (offensive?) stats are drastically increased." (increases stats to make up for Manyalus reduction while not enabling CS if people don't want to use)
-"Your stats increase a small amount with each new skill learned. (or class unlocked?)" kinda like blue mages from FFTa or the Brave class from Bravely Default
-Keep "resurgence" but give it the "Beam Sword" effect from Zelda games like at 50% and 25% something extra occurs or some such
-Blueline or something similar to it (kind of unique on a melee classs)
-Whatever Odie comes up with

[lost orchid]

Since DAra charges with apex skills, DUrsa could charge with temp procs. Every temp proc gives 5% up to a maximum of 50% (or whatever numbers)

[pallid stump]

the direction that seem to be preferred is to have turn 1 power to help deity is content like tower (and technically monuments but I doubt anyone need more power for that). While not a bad idea, it would take same time to proc it which is not what most of us are looking for.

[opaque chasm]

Here's an idea for Ursa for replacing Resurgence:

Start combat with some combination of the T. Att up buffs.

Might be tough to balance, but quite thematic at least...

[pallid stump]

someone already suggested that. I'm not a fan because it's too RNG and promote the "exit game to restart fight" mechanic.

[opaque chasm]

Don't make it RNG. Always start with the same buffs.

[pallid stump]

and when they fade, it's like you don't have any stat passive at all. Or you combine your idea with bwubble idea.

[opaque chasm]

Yep. Better finish before they fade.

Combining it with Bwubble's idea seems bad. Then Ursa is back to being "mediocre at everything and thus useless".

[coral rock]

I know we are still on the topic with the stat-pasive. but I had another idea for Ursa.
Excess damage I do to one opponent has a % chance (50?) of jumping to another opponent. Would be great in dungeons if you miss an opponent with AOE, but another's excess kills him. and in towers you could kill Fodder quickly, but enemies with a lot of HP are still in the way to make it not OP.

[pallid stump]

not a fan of the Dara new charging time. Before change it was already taking 30 turns to be fully loaded, now it's increased to 36.

[coral rock]

I believe that this needs to be tested a lot more and for that we need the beta on the live servers. Hardly anyone will sit down for 1 hour a day and play the beta if the progress is not saved.
My only fear is that we may not be able to make any major changes to Ursa if we switch to the live server now...

[pallid stump]

IMO Odie want to ship it to live beta for tweaks because we don't have stuff to really test it. which means it can still change.

As per the charging time, there's no need to test more, you can't mathematically take less turn unless you take enough damage to reduce your apex loading time, which is not happening on ara has you're pretty tanky at base.
it's because of the new apex cap per turn, you can't get more than 20% of your bar per attack.

[soft steeple]

Just saying, towers chests give you a bunch of temp effects. If those trigger the passive, that would help Dara at towers.

[pallid stump]

you mean dursa right ? yes understand that, that's also why I said you could combine this and ursa passive at turn 1 to reduce rng. you would end with a sizable buff turn 1 and could still ramp it up a bit when fighting for longer. But I doubt this can be implemented because it has too many interaction with skills like realmshift or swordplay. That could be tested but I'm doubtful.

[soft steeple]

I.. I misread it.
Forgive me, I will go into the corner.

[pallid stump]

we don't have shame corners here, just a round table

[teal girder]

Feel like the charging cap defo needs increasing, 2 turns was a bit silly but it shouldn't take too long otherwise it just becomes an afterthought

[pallid stump]

I agree unless we've confirmation of an upcoming adorn to up that 20% max apex per attack.
Like I said, right now ursa is not charging faster at all, the only difference is the free turn.

[teal girder]

What would you expect, weapon adorns that add 10% per? Or Armor that add less?

[limber lily]

more like faster apex charge per armor adorn (thats why it gets so slow, cuz ~30 spots) ...since it is 20/120 i dont think there will be adorn for this, maybe for wep, or gear with some low value if any

base CD is 15%, you can get to 100% with armor adons, dont see why apex shouldnt be able to full charge in 1 hit with full armor later 🤷‍♂️

[pallid stump]

when I say 20% it's the maximum apex you can get per attack. The so called faster apex plays a very little role in the current build. You don't need much damage to max out your apex income which is capped at 20% per attack. That's the value that should be increased with adornments. That why I was saying I'd like to know about those adornments earlier because those are really important in judging apex system.

I would be desapointed if current charge speed stay like that and you can't build faster apex.

[limber lily]

Well CD proc chance at 15% at begin wasnt that useful either, right? I mean, not pumping everything to max leave open spot to dev, so he can add items later. Why should he spoil it infront? 🤷

[pallid stump]

because if they don't exist, apex will not be that usefull with 5 charging turns
Items and stances already existed during beta

[untold blade]

at 15% chance : CD still usefull because occasional procs turn 1/2
5 turn charge : Never usefull
Of course, it depend of the content.

[subtle anchor]

IMO the priorities are:
-Apex Charging Rates finalized or close to finalized for each class
-Give Channelalus another look
-Ursa Passive
-Maybe AoE Apex

Wishlist would include:
-Something to open more builds up on Ara but it isn't necessary

[harsh void]

Just because it procs, doesn't make it usefull 😂

But yes I get the thought process

[austere shuttle]

For those who spent months avoiding "méta" classes and deceided to keep playing deity mage on dungeons it's maybe little more than a "maybe" 🙏 thank you

[torpid burrow]

That will kill mana regen.

[torpid burrow]

I think the items aren't available because they don't exist. It's most likely Odie wants to settle down the rework before he decides that can and cannot be put into items.
Last patch we didn't even have a charge cap, so why would anyone be working on items to increase it?

[torpid burrow]

I still want an alternative to Manyalus on raid content.

We're basically down to Chanelalus and Barrialus during raids as there's no reason to make your spells AoE, and Ultima is stronger than Neutralus.

[woven kayak]

I mean, isn't Ultima like a Deity spell?

[subtle anchor]

Random suggestion idea of the day:

Change "Apex" to "Cultivation" to give a little extra mythological spice to the godline classes.

[harsh tusk]

cultivation is a bad name but i won't mind it being called "divine power" or "divinity"

[harsh tusk]

nah, heretic learns it

[cyan mason]

Lets get the rework out and less worry about names lol

[torpid burrow]

Someone is reading too many Light Novels.

[teal girder]

Cultivation is to do with farming no? What has it got to do with gods? Maybe I'm being stupid?

[lofty frost]

probably a god of farmers, everything has a god depending on your beliefs

[torpid burrow]

Yes, but my point is that, with enough status duration, you can easily reach a point where, during raids, you have a full bar and no useful Apex to cast as Ara, after you raise your stats.

Manyalus is not only pointless against raid bosses, it's effectively detrimental as it now debuffs your damage for several turns.

And Neutralus is weaker than Ultima, as well. We don't have any useful Apex on raids, other than the marginally useful Barrialus.

Once you have 120%, and Barrialus up, assuming the boss is not dead (like monthly wayvessel ones), Apex becomes a non-feature.

[woven kayak]

I mean, for Ultima your prob using a dragon, and the free source of DC every X turns is always welcome imo.
I get what you mean with Neutralus, but making it stronger than Ultima would be even more powercreeping

[torpid burrow]

I'm not asking for this. I'm just asking for a useful buff.

[woven kayak]

How is a 1 turn DC, that can proc the Ara mag+/++/+++ buffs as well on you, not useful?
Staying power also makes sure that it might stay until the apex bar is full again

[proper briar]

Once you have 120%, and Barrialus up, assuming the boss is not dead (like monthly wayvessel ones), Apex becomes a non-feature.

For the vast majority of raids, a player with a competant Ultima setup would have the raid dead after such a setup time.

[woven kayak]

I just don't get why a free 1 turn DC is considered weak

[torpid burrow]

With enough positive duration, it will outlast the charge.

[woven kayak]

Then you'll be able to perma loop it, that's even better imo

[proper briar]

That's sounds like a great problem to have 😆

Why is the complaint: "I can keep up DC and T. Def/T. Res ^^^ all the time"

[torpid burrow]

I agree, but then again, people were talking about wishlists.

Mine is something to help clear long raids faster.

[lofty frost]

i'm definitely down for more OP features

[austere shuttle]

In current state on raids it will most likely help early T10 players clearing raids in one go. For mid/high AL players it will probably slow down a little (hard to say exactly at what point due to no mirror in beta) but it's maybe not that big of a deal (+most likely something "easy" to fix after some feedback when the rework will be live).

[cyan mason]

dont let them figure it out and nerf it

Ship it

[woven kayak]

ship it ship it ship it

[pallid stump]

you probably should have chosen another ship

[cyan mason]

It may be sunk but its still a marvel. Just like Diety

[torpid burrow]

Nah. It was a perfect choice.

[pallid stump]

we already have 1t DC for ara ultima. In current knowledge, apex will not be useful for ara raids, BUT if we can later increase apex spell damage then it may at some point be higher than ultima and be useful. And to be clear, ara don't even need help for fast raiding to begin with.

[austere shuttle]

No worries, it can't sink right ? Right? 😱😋

[woven kayak]

But now you can use another piece of gear instead of that>.>

[pallid stump]

is there a good pants that grants temp buff ? I don't think there's something massively better than dc pants RN

[lofty frost]

zeus, ash plum, the aarus, not sure what else

[pallid stump]

those only give mag+ which is already given by the ara passive. While not completely useless, they're not good either. Also they're T9 with very bad stats so if the passive can't compensate, you just better with a flat raven.
While srolling the codex, pants really look like a weak peace of armor tbh.

[shrewd cedar]

We need boots and socks slots

[pallid stump]

only valuable switch I can see RN is the beastfelled WoO boots. Or maybe fallen sky now that ara have unlimited amount of mana.

[shrewd cedar]

Anyway, was there anything about BDeity? 🐷

[woven kayak]

Fss is always welcome haha

[pallid stump]

there're still some negative points to it.

• can only be used once every 6 turns.
• can't be used in first rotation.

Honestly I'm still not entirely sure I'll use channelalus for ara raiding. Ursa, 100% using it, but ara meh.

[torpid burrow]

No. Only Embla Armor.

[torpid burrow]

If you're going Beastfelled with Mimic pet for infinite WoO, then casting DB2 in 2 or 3 turns once, let the pet keep it up, and using the headgear for GoA spell would be optimal.

But if you are running Phoenix/Themis, you may want WoA there, or something more useful. Then I can see an eventual cast of Chanelalus to fill the gaps from bad rng.

[pallid stump]

at this point if you're using phoenix with ara, you trolling. Plus my head and armor are pretty much locked to fallen sky cowl and bulwark for obvious reasons.

[torpid burrow]

Odie mentioned once that they internally use Phoenix when testing.

[pallid stump]

pre 245, maybe. post 245 it's trolling.

[opaque chasm]

Fallen Sky Cowl loses to Fey Menja. It also loses to Fallen Sky Shoes if we're talking about where to put DC gear. You don't need much ascension for mana to generally not be a concern with FSS.

[opaque chasm]

DAra raiding has relatively many gearing options. What's BIS depends on circumstances.

[subtle anchor]

For my tangent:
@torpid burrow watching/reading too much Chinese mythology actually.

@teal girder at least in the media I've seen/read it refers to the idea of storing up/growing power/qi/karma/energy over time/through a specific set of tasks and multiple lifetimes. In some of the shows in particular people can expend it to do all sorts of awesome things.

However it was a random/goofy idea more than anything.

To respond more to the thread-
I can see why Channelalus is good but I'm curious if it could be changed to t.All1 or t.All2 to not encroach on Base's passive too much.

Especially when we just got Dynasty Gear for t1 DC casts

Recasting buffs or casting Neutralus to charge passive is fine for Ara?

I still think that having finalized or more finalized charge rates will help address a lot of concerns people have right now

[pallid stump]

Funnily enough, FSC and Menja are never sorted the same every time I see them compared. Some will say menja is better, others will say FSC is better. As for FSS, you need high roll while DC pants can be normal unless you've a high ornate, it's easier to recommend dynasty (especially to low / mid AL players which I am). Sam for FSC and bulwark, quality is irrelevant for them. Also lower AL need DC for survivability too so it's never a wrong choice to have 1t DC.

[opaque chasm]

Sure, a normal FSC beats a normal Fey Menja.

[woven kayak]

I don't think chamnelalus should get that change, since the item it's compared with is a T10 event super raid drop (if memory serves me right, otherwise just a new event gear), while being a T9 ability.
I understand that using the combo is great, but giving a new ability a downgrade because of that is meh.
Maybe if it'd be T.all 1+2, while saying "let's lock player skill accessible Tall3 to T10 with deific channel" (I know there's phoenix)

[cyan mason]

can someone make an odie ship it meme?

[torpid burrow]

There's already one.

[cyan mason]

[woven kayak]

All I can say

[teal girder]

sounds like anime 🤮

[subtle anchor]

Different countries of origin and live action vs animation 🤷‍♂️

[subtle anchor]

DC in 1 turn is too much encroachment on base Deity (imo) in addition to sort of making Dynasty Gear less important.

Unless I'm mistaken t.All 2 doesn't exist in the game currently so attaching that to an Apex ability making Deity the only class with access to it is kind of cool, yeah? Also makes the ability less redundant on base.

Of course that plus other reasons all should be weighted against D.Ara wanting Channelalus for the extra t.Mag and gear procs to get everything up at once which it sounds like is also pretty important to those who've tried it on beta

I suppose it is a bit of a nitpick. 🤷‍♂️

[woven kayak]

Possibly, I can see this point, I'd just not like it that much tbh.

[teal girder]

https://tenor.com/view/ship-it-gif-20012374

[cyan mason]

I think at this point we aren't gonna get much feedback until it's really shipped and people can use their full gear setups

[teal girder]

Maybe up the apex charge cap* a lil bit and then SHIP IT

[cyan mason]

I'm hoping we see something next weekbwould love to have it sooner than later

[pallid stump]

Ara passive loading still feels very weak outside endless IMO. You need 24 attack turns to get 80% passive (not including buff phase). So loooong.

[pallid stump]

tbf, you told nothing, it was fast enough when using apex needed 3 turns. Now it needs 6 so obviously it's much slower.

[austere shuttle]

3/4 seems fine indeed

[pallid stump]

or keep 6 but you get 30% per apex, which would be same speed as before charging nerf

which can be quite good considering how fast your first proc come

[austere shuttle]

Agree

[cyan mason]

So fix charge rate and ship? 🚢

[pallid stump]

charge rate was nerfed for other (legitimate) reasons, ara being even slower is just a byproduct I think.

[coral rock]

Resurgence on Ursa feels so out of place.
We need something that makes sense for fast-paced content like dungeons and towers

[cyan mason]

Oh I agree but Odie said he doesn't like the other stuff. So if it's not gonna get changed, I say send it so we can at least get the good gameplay and buffs of staying power

[coral rock]

We waited so long... I personally would stay 3 weeks longer in closed beta and try other things for Ursa than go live and live with resurgence forever.
Feels like a lot of wasted potential and time if Ursa stays in it's current state 😕

[pallid stump]

especially when resurgence is a nerf compared to previous passive

[cyan mason]

I still like PoTG 3 idea 🤷

[austere shuttle]

(still have same issue with Dara too on my side)

[cyan mason]

Reverse HP lining with siphon would be amazing though lol

[coral rock]

This is a CLASSLINE rework.
Celestials are designed to excel is specific content. That's why you should play all 3 Deities, to overcome the weaknesses of the others. It's likely that an celestial doesn't get the tools to be good in every content.
If you can only play Dara (that is designed for long content) it's not the fault of the rework.

[cyan mason]

Heretic rework will solve mages issues

[austere shuttle]

Well. I play Dara and base. According to how you push for Dursa to be good both on tower and anguish dungeons (= 80+% of endgame player playtime) I don't think it's that nice to blame me hoping for Dara to be something more than endless cheese. Deity is not only mage, but it's also not only melee. Thank you

[coral rock]

In which world is potg3 better in ang50 than resurgence?

[austere shuttle]

And what is this?

Don't blame someone who just express his feelings about this rework 🙏 thank you. We all Care about deity.

Or I will surely be even more annoying, asking about why the 2 contents that takes more playtime for most players (dungeons and tower) are both seen to be designed for the melee side 😋🙏

[cyan mason]

Because melee will always reign king due to scaling.

[coral rock]

If I had something to say, I would have also designed Ara for dungeons/towers and Ursa for high damage. But since a decision was made against it, I am now going in the direction in which both were steered.

My only problem is that you express your feelings 3 times a day and always say that Ara has to be good everywhere. (Feels like you only care about mage and don't se the whole picture)

I play all 3 classes and try to make suggestions so that not all 3 can do everything equally well and we end up where we started.

This is not the place to argue, so this was my last comment for you

[austere shuttle]

I don't ask for Dara to be good everywhere. I play base CS in tower, and I will continue to. I didn't express feelings about Dursa as, as I said, many players did it very well, including you.

[subtle anchor]

On Beta vs Live
-Ara feels pretty similar to live doing horde dungeons in that Mage's Dance will proc buffs. The Apex charge rates feel kinda low (6-7 turns on AoE?) so the abilities aren't getting used much and feel a little awkward when you do use them but we don't have them on live so not a lot has changed here. This is where I think Goudine's suggestion of an AoE Apex ability would be quite beneficial as a way to still clear or damage the floor but also proc all the gear/temp buffs.

-Ara feels fairly similar against raids with lower hp because Ultima doesn't really need stat passives. Since these raids end so fast, this seems just fine.

-Ara feels slower against raids with larger HP pools but still okay. The issue here is that Apex doesn't really come into play in a content area the class is sorta being designed toward. I don't really get my passive charged, my gear procs, or my cool abilities.

-Ara feels slow but powerful in endless. Even more so with the monstrous mana pool freeing up so many slots that were previously used for acorns. If nothing were to change, Ara would still do exceptionally well in Endless.

-Ara feels fine in towers. Fights are over after I've cast AV2 2-3x and I'm not worried about my health or mana not helping me do extra damage.

-Ara feels rough in PvP but I'm pretty sure that design is intentional and I am decidedly okay with it.

I don't have any Anguish on beta so I can't really speak to how Anguish content works or doesn't work for Ara.

That feels less like a pigeonhole and more like a fairly flexible class that needs some issues ironed out/fixed.

TLDR: Ara can excel at Endless, do just fine in horde dungeons and towers, be a bit awkward but fine in raids, struggle some in PvP and no idea on Anguish. An AoE Apex ability could smooth horde dungeons and charging rate tweaks would help a lot of it.

[shrewd cedar]

PotG3 for Ursa (because ppl have lobbying for it)
Reverse for base xD (because seals/strikes heal duh)
Ship it

[cyan mason]

Nah, base is fine as is, you can use those abilities on any class, I wouldnt call them specific

[thorn yacht]

Is there a way i could implicitly spend my apex meter to reduce the cast time of skills? On base at least

[pallid stump]

it's still a bit meh to have 95% of your spells working against your passive. It has been for ages, and it's a known problem. Remember that bloodshift was changed to fix the same issue on RS ? Unfortunately you can't really use it in deity without high tenacity. Sure you can use other classes spells but if you play melee deity, you literally unlock 0 usable skill. Same for dursa. The problem wouldn't be that bad if redline started from 100% hp but it's not the case and probably never will.

Also I may just be a redline hater, but why are crest of avalon and dragon slayer are good for their classes but when it comes to deity potg becomes boring and not really an option ?

[shrewd cedar]

This, thank you Orion, u're the best 🐷👍

[cyan mason]

I don't disagree with any of that, again playing devil's advocate lol. I like both options, but I wouldn't really say it's broken. Just ther could be some better options. Odie is gonna do what Odie wants to do though in the end and he's already stated he does like either of those options so I'm trying to plan and work with what he tosses out.

[finite berry]

While I agree with redline struggles,

Odie already said no to PotG so lets focus on something else instead?

[woven kayak]

Let's have it shipped 🚢

[tacit quail]

🛳️ 🇮 🇹

[pallid stump]

no
Resurgence will be useless for a large part of the player base. Maybe potg is not the ultimate passive but it gives much more options and flexibility than resurgence.
On top of that, it's a straight up nerf to current dursa purpleline.
So I don't see a reason to not talk about it again.

[coral rock]

I think what was meant by "lets focus on something else instead" was that we should think about another passive that might be similar to PotG.

I'm still for PotG, but new ideas can't hurt

[shrewd cedar]

• Redline
• Blueline
• Purpleline
• Reverse of above
• Reverse redline but all ward converted to hp?
• Turn stacking (boost per turn in battle)
• Apex line/full bar
• boost per instance of dmg taken
• boost per attack/spell use
• PotG3
• boost per element used
• boost per heal? (boost for each %healed?)
• boost for each turn of channeling
• each type of skill/spell in your loadout boost your ststs
  (different type, capped)
• % of hp/mp/dex added to att/mag/def/res
• Hybrid monster like passive? (base)

What else do we have?

[pallid stump]

custom weapon/gear proficiency

[proper briar]

What about Purpleline, but 80% on HP and 50% on mana? 🤔

[finite berry]

I just said i agree with redline struggles (i.e. replace resurgence ).

But Odie said no to PotG. Come up with something else

If we come up with nothing else that Odie likes then lets ship it

[finite berry]

#1219675348434812998 message

[torpid burrow]

What about a damage based one?

Something like... If you keep causing damage, it will keep building up, but during the turns you don't do any damage, it is reduced.

[subtle anchor]

I understand redline is far from ideal but while Ara is sort of ignoring Apex/Apex cast procs/Apex abilities (currently because of low charge rates) in most content, it seems okay that Ursa's battle passive is most utilized in PvP? Especially while the kit is as thoroughly loaded as it currently is?

Stacking ward + chain shield on live works just fine in towers and will be even better with just the additional proc rates and proc on kills and extra turn on Apex. I don't think it's the worst thing that Resurgence offers a little more flexibility in content where the rest of the passives are already covering Ursa pretty hard.

I might be the minority but I'd rather that flexibility (especially in PvP when you SC into 100% passive) than PotG 🤷‍♂️ I'd sort of rather have it than reverse redline too because reverse redline removes Ursa from PvP position where you don't get to go first. But Odie has shot both of those ideas down already so let's steer the conversation elsewhere rather than keep beating the dead horse.

I quite like the idea of S2's splitline where your attack goes up at high HP and defenses go up at low HP. That would help early and be very interesting to build around in a variety of content.

I'd be okay with blueline as it would make Ursa the only Melee class with it

But I think we can safely leave this one to Odie, yeah?

Even if it is ultimately left with Resurgence I don't think Ursa is in a bad spot on beta.

TLDR: Resurgence is OK but not ideal because Ursa is pretty decent on beta. PotG/Reverse Redline were vetoed. Let's come up with other passive ideas instead of beating the dead horse. Splitline is cool. Blueline is okay. What else y'all got or how do you feel about either of those?

[finite berry]

A resurgence that scales differently than normal to give some sort of effect at higher HP would at least be acceptable enough to ship for now

[subtle anchor]

Zelda Beam Swords! (Dunno how that would translate).

[shrewd cedar]

I like splitline idea, it's new and fresh (in Orna :p)

[cyan mason]

Split line would help in towers a ton and speed up dungeons. No other class has it, would be cool 🤷
Interesting as well is if you get smacked pretty hard you'll lose you offense buffs and might take a couple turns to recoup as it's malus per say.

[harsh void]

Imo high offense at high hp and high def at low hp, is all positive. The other comparable passives from other classes have a trade off, which doesn't make them stronger in another aspect

[proper briar]

I'm not a fan of the splitline idea, but I think for it to make sense balance-wise it would need to be the reverse. High offense at low HP, and high defense at high HP. And... high offense at low HP sounds familiar 😅

[subtle anchor]

That would then not help early fights like people were asking for and would allow someone to nuke your defenses just by going first in combat? I liked the idea of being able to maybe survive if you got nuked first turn but losing all the extra combat power.

Whereas in reverse, I guess you basically have what we have lol

But I'm still in the boat: let Odie decide

[subtle plaza]

Have debuff line
Option 1: have 20% more stat increase for each debuff someone have (like def down, atk down) max at 110%, or
Option 2: 30% stat increased for each DOTs someone have, max at 110%, like berserk, poison, curse of sekhmet
Both would reward risky playstyle

[prime mountain]

Seems counterintuitive to Steadfast II

and staying power

[coral rock]

The idea of ​​high HP=more mag/att and low HP=more def/res is really cool. Maybe at exactly 50% HP you would have an equal share of both.
It's completely new and sounds exciting because you can definitely try out a lot of different builds with it

[harsh void]

I dunno about "completely new". It just took the negative from an in battle passive and turned it to a positive!

[hollow reef]

Appreciate all the new ideas, folks.

I do think we'll need to cap it soon, however. This update already brings debatably more "new" to a classline than any prior release. thus, i'd like to see us converge on an Ursa offering that is somewhat tried and tested.

I'd like to see a decision on whether we'd like to keep purpleline vs introduce redline. Blueline is interesting but i do have a hard time envisioning it getting traction.

if you could, please leave me a 🟣 for keeping purpleline on Ursa or a 🔴 for going ahead with resurgence. Unfortunately, I won't be around for much discussion today

[proper briar]

Ursa Resurgence:

At 1 HP: +100% Stats
At 20% HP (2x Quad Edge): +60% Stats

Ursa Purpline:

At 1 HP: +80% Stats
At 20% HP (2x Quad Edge): +48% Stats

At 1 HP and 50% Mana: +105% Stats
At 20% HP and 50% Mana: +73% Stats

--

The difference between these two isn't that much, except the purpleline Dursa is getting an additional free blueline boost that begins scaling immediately with mana. That will frequently lead to Purpleline being much more of a boost than Resurgeance on Deity Ursa.

Why are people such big fans of Resurgence? It is a downgrade in many cases over what Deity Ursa currently has in the live game.

(Edit: when I posted this I was the only vote for Purpleline, lol )

[coral rock]

Voting for broken hearts, because we can't vote for PotG 😔

[jade patrol]

If the choice is between those 2 don't forget resurgence has more use on tower than purple lining.
Now doesn't mean every body wants dursa to focus tower (anguish included) of course. Just pointing it out.

[proper briar]

I would argue that neither has particularly large use in towers. You basically never want to be spending the time to get into redline in towers

[jade patrol]

When you factor anguish it does matter a bit. You get hit harder and ennemies act first the higher you go. Means your turn 1 action will hit harder to while having more dex/def/res

But like I said it's peculiar. Only a really small % of players do Anguish tower

[proper briar]

I understand what you're saying, but if the enemies hit you well below 50% HP before you had the chance to act, you aren't having a good time.

[jade patrol]

Anguish on tower is like that alas.
Prefer to hit with bonus line from 50% turn 1 and kill one or two or all of the mobs than damaging them to X and take 3 turns. Chances to die are higher

Plus we have apex now. So ennemy going first fills bar - we get hit hard- fills the bar. Chances for quick apex turn 1 is possible + resurgence stats on that turn

But this is only with tower in mind.
Purple lining is better otherwise

[finite berry]

How about Redline with an apex ability to reduce HP to 1

[cyan mason]

Odie has spoken 🚢

[finite berry]

Yes and this is in like with what he has spoken with

[finite berry]

Would Redline with an Apex ability 'Octoedge' to reduce HP to 1%-10% be an acceptable compromise?

[cyan mason]

This would be cool on either line tbh

[pallid stump]

you'd need 5 attacks to be able to use apex so not very fast combat friendly anyways. And you also need to DB so it would be a 8 turns setup

[finite berry]

Would you rather have red/purple line with no apex ability to more easily achieve it ?

[cyan mason]

nah nah walls of aaru and the first 15 waves are trash easy anyway

[pallid stump]

@cyan masonthere are other activities than dungeons, and it wouldn't be so much faster than quadedge.
@finite berry wdym by 0 ability ? if you mean the apex you described, then yes I prefer purple. I'd still prefer some turn 1 power but purple is better than pure red

[subtle anchor]

What if it were "sets your Mana and HP to 50%" and then it was usable on all of the Deity classes both as a start my passive in PvE or a potential heal in PvP??

[proper briar]

Temerarius ("Reckless" in Latin)
Spending both Apex and your own vitality, unleash a devastating attack that restores ward and mana, but leaves you with few hitpoints.

Edit: Just an idea of how this could work, I'm not necessarily for this.

[cyan mason]

I stand by it lol, even if there are other activities the towers are still block by no PoTG off the rip, so why not speed up dungeons slightly and make it slightly less annoying to go to 1hp by turn 5 pop it quick and you keep zooming after the second turn

[finite berry]

Defer to Odie for the final call, just throwing out the general idea of 'apex ability to redline/purple line easier'

[pallid stump]

make it set you absorption to 100% and maybe

[finite berry]

Lets let odie do the exact numbers. There is something along these lines that we like tho, yes? And is a good compromise to being stuck with redline/purpleline?

[pallid stump]

IMO what's happening is that Odie need to ship the app because of terra's legacy questline, so he don't have the time for anything more than resurgence or purpleline choice, so giving ideas now is pointless.

truth is we'll not get anything for tower and that's it.

[proper briar]

Terra's Legacy and the entire new class tree

[pallid stump]

Overall of the beta for me is :

staying power is nice but not flashy at all.
ara is now good for endless.
dursa will be good for sweep alternative ONLY IF we get adornments that let us charge apex in 2 turns.

An that's basically it.

[subtle anchor]

Considering he literally tried some of the ideas out or mathed them out in one of his recent posts makes that seem wildly unfair. Especially because we could not be getting a rework at all.

It's okay to be unhappy or not like changes but can we give the man some credit for the serious amount of work he's done and the willingness to try and work with the community?

[proper briar]

ara is now good for endless.
As if it wasn't before 😅
--

Overall I think the beta has great changes that give Deity identity, makes it more interesting, and has shored up some weak points. It's not the best class at towers, and it really never would be without some kind of extra turn/extra hit mechanic like RS or Gilga. And that's OK.

It's very important to remember that Deity absolutely did not suck prior to this rework. Deity was powerful, the celestials were just a bit bland and didn't vary much from the base class.

[pallid stump]

I'm not saying it's not enough, or it's bad. I'm just trying to sum up what will really change for deity after the changes

[hollow reef]

Nay - this would not be accurate. There is no reason to get these changes out with Terra (and they are not to go out with Terra)

The point is - introducing too many changes without being meta tested just isn’t the right call here. These changes affect more than your individual gameplay, and it is important to recognize the scope

[finite berry]

Look, this didn't turn out the way I had hoped either.

I am choosing to move forward within the bounds that Odie would like to work in, given that he has tried many ideas for us already. The question right now is Redline vs. Purpleline.

Neither are very appealing, but understood that we need to ship this.

To make them more appealing, be in line with Odies current path/vision, and allow for a quick ship, why not an apex ability to make Redline easily achievable on Ursa's free turn?

[pallid stump]

I still don't thing that 1 apex per 6 turns will have that much of an impact on overall gameplay. That's too long for dara to proc its passive outside of AW and endless, dursa will not have much damage from it so it'll basically become a DC generator (very strong but is it interesting tho ?). Nothing will change in tower / monuments. Anguish will most likely be CS anyways. We'll have some time to test on live but I doubt that it will change the deity gameplay that much for something being your identity.

Biggest change may be the better procs, but the items with interesting procs are not many and most of the time outclassed even when the buff is on. Dursa will have a better time in dungeons that's for sure, but dara needed to use apex for that is very limiting now that it's only once per 6 turns.

The dara needing 24 turns to get a 80% buff is still not addressed too.

TL:DR : I was more enthusiastic when the apex loaded faster.

[subtle anchor]

Which can be mitigated by Apex charge rates/caps being finalized, yeah?

[teal girder]

I've got to agree on the was much more enthusiastic when it loaded faster. Everything else I'm 100% fine with

[pallid stump]

the problem is not the charge rate, but the charge cap which is limited to 20% per attack

[subtle anchor]

Changing the cap could be part of the charge rate changing too, right? - edited my previous message to include as I sorta assumed that would be part of it

[pallid stump]

it could, but we've no visibility on the speculated adorns, so I can't really judge the system with them in mind.
I can only judge what I can see now.

[finite berry]

I can almost guarantee that once we have more players able to test and give more data (aka ship) that charging rates will change
Just not enough data and feedback currently to land on the exact ideal spot for this brand new ability

[subtle anchor]

Well we've seen rates/caps be adjusted across the beta so I think it's safe to assume we will see more

[hollow reef]

Could you explain that 24 turns for 80%? That’s not really adding up for me

[pallid stump]

when we talk ship, it's ship to live beta or directly to live ?

[pallid stump]

5 attack to charge apex, 1 turn to use apex = 6 turn for 20% stat bonus. 6 * 4 = 24 (and that's not including any potential buff turns)

[hollow reef]

I know the power that the faster charging was exciting, but we really have to remember that the goal here is not to significantly buff the class

[proper briar]

I feel like it's important to remember that you are doing things on those 5 turns. You will naturally come into a reasonable apex bonus by the deeper floors of a dungeon

[pallid stump]

I agree with that, just saying that I enjoyed the system more when I was able to use it more.

[subtle anchor]

I think live beta will help people test out self damage, Ward damage and other numbers to get more data Odie can use as well. There is likely a good medium between broken spamming and too slow to use

Limit Breaks in FF are charged by Damage Taken > Damage Dealt > Turns/Time passed if I'm not mistaken and that seems to be the basis for the Apex Bar

How does taking damage factor into those turns? - Understanding that taking damage is kind of difficult to do with a billion temp buffs up. If that is the primary charge factor, might need to add some amount when you zero an attack?

[hollow reef]

Cap is 1/3 apex per action, not 20%. Context dependant (plenty of actions in horde content, for example) - this is not a glaringly large amount of time

[pallid stump]

last week I tested in cactus, dungeons and raids, and I consistently needed 5 turns whatever I was doing

[hollow reef]

You may not have been hitting cap then

[pallid stump]

I did, I get 20% when hitting 70K and when hitting 300k (just tested again rn)

[hollow reef]

Oh, I see - cap for damage only is 20%. Mixing in some self damage, etc, could optimize

[subtle anchor]

Is there a way to disperse that cap to just be a flat 33% across whatever method?

[finite berry]

If we go with Redline, Is an apex ability to make redline much more reasonably achievable / maintainable somehow within the realm of possibility here? Or should we not try to come up with these kinds of ideas at this point. Wondering if it is helpful or time wasting

[pallid stump]

Self damage + red line doesn't go well together

[hollow reef]

With Manyalus/Channelalus in the mix, I would rather stay clear of possible overtunement before launch

[austere shuttle]

Thank you for all your work Odie. Quite disapointed for now as more mage enjoyer, but appreciate all your effort and I know you ll have some surprise for us in the next months

[hollow reef]

Thanks for the gratitude: I’m sure we’ll learn more in live and have more opportunity to be happy in the end

[austere shuttle]

I ll of course always find a way to be happy with orna 😉

[pallid stump]

I'm still at 5 turns with zerk 2 + 3, how did you get 4 turns ?

[subtle anchor]

5 Turns = 4 Turns to fill + 1 turn to cast?
I'm there- I was just timing the amount of time to fill the bar.

I've only once gotten 3 with getting smacked by something though it might also have been that + the tiny bit that goes up each enemy since the floor had the max number of enemies

[subtle anchor]

That is... weird. I was doing a horde dungeon and was getting a consistent 4 turn fill with just zerk 1. Maybe because of extra enemy turns? Or maybe ya gotta do even more damage?

[finite berry]

Bump

[pallid stump]

I tested with dursa too in case the faster charging was a thing, same. I don't charge faster, but 2000 blades don't deal much damage compared to 2000 seals (it even do less damage than viperstrike 3 and average same damage than neutra eventualus).
Then a new problem arise, you can't play 2 turn spells if you plan on using apex because that would turn your 5 charging turns into 10 charging turns (I don't even get apex from zerk during US charging turn).

[subtle anchor]

Knight's idea is pretty cool there. I like it.

Add in "Procella" an AoE apex ability that does damage and maybe has a chance to hit for Windswept or Drenched. This would benefit Ara most and fitting that "Procella" has the word proc in it but is also means great windstorm/squall

In regards to the passives:
I vote Purpleline! Preferably with some of the ability ideas mentioned if they can be balanced as well

[cyan mason]

Gonna be honest any bumping and such is probably wasted at this point. Might be something to talk about after the ship 🚢 and everyone starts getting a feel

[finite berry]

Looking for discussion on an idea that compromises with our (not very exciting) current options is all

[subtle anchor]

So maybe damage cap should be upped to a 25% and the cap overall for Ursa sped up if it is indeed supposed to charge faster?

I'm definitely going to need to test this more and see what on earth I'm doing that's different

[pallid stump]

playing in horde is what makes you get it faster. Everytime an enemy attacks you, you get some apex. So more enemies = more apex. Manyalus also seem to charge apex faster somehow.

on the topic of self damage, I tried quadedge and still needed 5 attacks so quadedge charge may be included in the 20% cap from attack

[subtle anchor]

5 Attacks/Skills/Spells + 1 Turn to Cast for a total of 6 per Passive Proc is consistent with what I'm getting so far.

For Ursa it seems to be the same at 5 Attacks/Skills/Spells to charge the bar so it isn't any faster at the moment. That is included with Quad/Double Edge and/or Berserk.

Also no Apex on your turn but only on enemies seems to be going right now unless you deal damage?

Definitely makes multi-turn moves less than ideal

I'm guessing that it is bugged based on that and Odie saying it is capped at 1/3rd. I was hitting for 1.5m and still only getting 20% while having both Berserks up.

So I stand by my previous statements of getting charge rates/caps finalized

[teal girder]

If 20% is cap for damage done surely that's basically the cap, or do I need to start getting worse gear/dropping AL to get faster apex charge? I don't like using this word but I hate being required to take damage, we aren't a berserker class. Unless I only get full use when doing last few turns of A-morri or v high anguish?

I use berserk usually so I will be taking damage, but is that going to be a requirement to have benefit rather than detriment to using apex? Or am I better or just spamming US as usual (yawn)

[subtle anchor]

I don't think Berserk Damage or Quad/Double Edge are affecting it right now. I've run hordes and raids on all three today and the charge rates for each seems to be the same right now (Rate meaning how fast they charge so it is incorporating that Apex charge cap)

In Hordes, I could get it to 4 turns to charge a bar even if enemies never went so I'm not quite sure what the math is there. I even had a couple rare 3s but those involved at least one enemy hitting me and dealing damage. The dealing damage part is annoying because it is easy to zero pvp enemies especially with decent gear, Barrielus or AL levels- not to mention just killing them all before they get to go.

In raids, no matter what I did, I couldn't get it beyond 5 turns to charge plus the 6th to fire off an ability. I even tried to get the raids to deal damage to me and still couldn't get it down below 5 turns to charge (tried as swash so can't go too much lower)

But if it is just bugged right now, that's what it is. I'm sure Odie is going to work on it, even more so if it's about to go to live beta.

Worst case scenario, I'm guessing we will get rates changed/fixed as more people can try stuff out with their actual gear.

[soft steeple]

There's something I don't quite understand. If it's easy to zero out enemies and/or killing them all before they get to go, why do you need do charge Apex?

[jade patrol]

Does taking a big hit from ennemy charge apex faster tho? Or still cap. Example big hit from frost troll/immortal lords/ronnin/bears etc

[subtle anchor]

On Ara most especially, if I want to:
-Charge my passive
-Proc gear/t.buffs
-Use an Apex ability to do those two

I need to be able to charge my Apex bar. But if I get my passive charged and am using t.buffs, changes are higher that I'm not taking damage.

Which makes it harder to get those three things.

And it's kind of an odd cycle, y'know?

Also Ursa says it charges faster but currently doesn't seem to be doing so.

I don't really mind it on Base. Base I will/would use it as a Limit Break and nothing more. But I also don't get all the Ara stuff or the Ursa extra turns on base where those two feel like they're dependent on it charging to various degrees.

[lofty frost]

because apex is new stuff, people will want to use it in all contents no matter how inefficient it becomes

[subtle anchor]

Yes it does. I can get a pretty hefty charge if something can reliably get through. By that token, I actually think I may find myself using it in towers

[jade patrol]

Thanks at least some use for anguish tower. Even with high defense you get alot of big hits so means quick t all. Was the reason i liked resurgence for it

[soft steeple]

I didn't mean it in a jesting manner fyi
Apex charges faster in content that you struggle with, which is more plentiful in lower levelled players. If you're already at a point where you kill everything in one hit and take damage from nothing, then you don't need to be dealing extra damage and take less damage (t.buffs/passive)

That being said, I do understand it being counterintuitive, as the further you charge ara's passive, the slower it charges.

[subtle anchor]

That is a fair assessment.

I guess I just don't want the passive to become less useful the further into the class you get. It's a really cool idea that I went from disliking to finding rather neat and exciting and I'd love to see it balanced in a way that finds a happy medium of usability.

I think that it works fine on Base. It's a limit break and you'll either get it because you're fighting something that can hurt you or you'll get it from surviving long enough to charge it.

Ara and Ursa I think it may need some work on the charging rates. And I'm not opposed to those rates helping it be slightly more frequent on base as well.

[pallid stump]

with how the game calculate damage, it's not rare to go from 0ing everything to being one shotted. Plus, in raids even tho you take no damage you will still want to be able to use channelalus or even your apex damage skills. On top of that, it's very strange to base your passive on damage taken for a class considered one the tankiest.

[soft steeple]

You charge it extra from taking damage, it's not exclusively from taking damage (though I'm sure you know this)

In a raid scenario you're still going to be getting apex charged enough to use channelalus, which should last ~long enough to the next usage considering staying power.

In any case, I feel like I understand it a bit better, so thank you two for your time. Don't forget that small number tweaks can always be adjusted post launch as Odie gathers more data from the general playerbase, as well as the introduction of apex boosting gear, adorns and/or amities.

[subtle anchor]

I do think Odie has got this.

Side note:
I don't want gear/amities for it. Let the Deity class keep the equip all strange build identity and Apex be fully functional without needing extra fluff. 😄 But that's a conversation for a much later date I assume.

[pallid stump]

like I responded to Odie, I'm not asking for power, but I'm looking for an interesting mechanic. And the time it taks to load the apex make it lose most of its interest (at least for me). It's mostly because of channelalus and manyalus because the damage spell are far from being the best option at damage (at least past 245, prior to that it's fine I guess). Especially on dursa (apex damage skills are hitting like wet noodles, less than viperstrikes, and the faster charge rate is useless because it's already super easy to hit the cap even with ara). The charge rate also made ara passive far less potent than it was in most content.

But anyway, it is what it is and it's too late now. I hope this change after release but I doubt it.

[coral rock]

I feel a bit defeated that we couldn't achieve more and are now just being pushed for publication.
Whether it be the AOE Apex ability for Ara, PotG3 for Ursa (which would be my biggest wish at the moment) or slight changes to base Deity, many feel as if we haven't really reached our goal yet.
I realize that not everyone can come out of this happy. However, I would rather have tried everything possible instead of publishing now and then not seeing any changes.
I will stay Deity main no matter what the result is, even if I am forced to play mostly base Deity again because it is often the best option.
Thank you NF for your efforts to make this class even better! 🙂

[proper briar]

As much as I understand that sentiment, a lot of what people have been trying to push is straight power buffs. Endgame Deity is not in need of, and hasn't been in need of, a large bump in power. However, it did still recieve a reasonable bump in power with this update.

Earlier game Deity certainly was in need, and Apex delivers that handily.

[opaque chasm]

Endgame Deity is not in need of, and hasn't been in need of, a large bump in power.
Strong disagree. Endgame Deity is weak. The rework gives a slight bump, but far from enough.

But I think it comes down to you and I (and others) looking at class strength in different terms.

[coral rock]

I don't want overpowered stuff. Staying power was a good buff to Deity.

PotG just would add a different playstyle to Ursa, that's far from an upgrade.

An Aoe Apex don't have to do more dmg than sweep or magedance. It should just opens up more possibilities for Ara.

Just as I said, don't feels like we are there.

[woven kayak]

But why have an aoe apex of you'd just magedance either way?

[coral rock]

For people who want/need to charge the passive without turn loss

[teal girder]

Because more options for AOE isn't bad? Why does only one class get AOE that isn't spec specific, and happens to be one of the most powerful classes currently?

[woven kayak]

Wdym?
All aoe stuff is spec locked, there's only pseudo aoe

[austere shuttle]

Ara loose the benefit of blue80/red50 (and I m not against losing this mechanic, it is nice to see stat boost linked to apex as it offers new build ideas), but having to use skills (apex) I don t really need at a moment just to be able to benefit from a stat boost I had before without any action feels really annoying to me

[woven kayak]

That makes sense, maybe I'm just used to not charging passive for MD:|

[austere shuttle]

It doesn't matter for no anguish dungeons (will just slow Low/Mid AL deitys a little). On anguish, those stats boost are a clear need

[woven kayak]

I haven't had a go at anguish dungs with MD, so I can't comment on that, gonna trust you with that

[austere shuttle]

Thank you 🌷

[pallid stump]

It's not like avidity, BB or collateral damage stop being useful once you're in endgame. Odie posted data showing that gilga was one of the strongest endgame class and yet, collateral buffs endgame.

Imo it wasn't too bad before the charge rate nerf to 20%, only manyalus would have been a subject of concerns. Raids ? ultima still better. Tower ? At least you would have been able to use apex once, now it'll most likely never be usable in tower. Anguish ? like I said previously, manyalus my be a concern, but the rest of the kit will not be in competition with CS. Endless ? her's the clear winner, no doubt, for both ara stats and potential nuke that can't miss.

So outside endless, endgame deity identity is "keep doing the same thing as before, with added temp duration.

I get that you don't want powercreep but it's sad that it's only a concern now after all the powercreep that happend during last year. I don't like powercreep either, but I don't want the enjoyment and interactability yto be sacrificed because of that.

[austere shuttle]

Thank you !

[soft steeple]

Gentle reminder that Odie was talking about non-anguish horde in that statement

And that this is Odie's stance on horde anguish: #1219675348434812998 message

[pallid stump]

so are we going to see nerf to big cheesy anguish strats ? doubt

[soft steeple]

Not in this patch, but likely in the future yes

[austere shuttle]

It's been 84 years 😋

It was already stated way before, and in between there have been addorns to keep increasing the gap, so I have some doubt too. Don't get me wrong, I love orna and NF work, but for now I could get ride of 40/50 of my current AL and have a better farming time on any other classes (except heretic)

[pallid stump]

I mean, avidity proc rate have even been buffed recently. But let's not start an inquisition, let that to the spanish.

[pallid stump]

Also to be clear, I don't see how current manyalus helps in regular horde. And was he really talking about regular ? Because Deity is a popular class for regular boss horde farming, even at 0 AL.

[proper briar]

but it's sad that it's only a concern now after all the powercreep that happend during last year.

I argued that Dorado was excellent without Avidity and didn't need it as well. 😅

I didn't participate in CD discussions as I'm not familiar with Gilga, and not qualified to try to help balance it. And as far as other powercreep, I fought hard to get Fey Surtr nerfed, I complained about Pumpkinless, and I've tried to get the CS meta tuned back. I never stop fighting powercreep.

[proper briar]

I believe Odie's "Horde" bucket combines all horde content, at least from how he discussed it in the ORN channels.

So "Horde" is meaning everything from horde dungeons, to towers, to monuments. All three of which are vastly different in how people approach them. So Towers improvements are also classified as "Horde".

Imo, this isn't great and doesn't give accurate performance information. But when he's said "horde" I believe that's what he means.

[pallid stump]

Remember the state of balance from early 2023 ? I just get back to it just to be sure I was not talking shit about the meta. Outside of GSA in PvP def, the top 1 T10 class is all gilga everywhere, and it was before collateral damage.

[proper briar]

"The state of balance 2023" was an interesting piece of incredibly unhelpful data :p

From what I understand, it exclusively measured a class's ability to complete content without dying.

[pallid stump]

"Look gilga is top 1 !"
see heretic ara top 2
"Nevermind"

[proper briar]

Gilga being #1 means that Gilga was able to finish stuff without dying. It didn't particularly matter if that meant killing every enemy one-by-one in a horde dungeon.

Whereas Realmshifter showed as being abysmal at a lot of content, because Realmshifter is inherently a risky class. It didn't matter that Realms did a lot of damage quickly in raids and at that time were arguably one of the best raiding classes - the death rate meant they showed at the bottom of the barrel.

That state of balance was also released so early into towers that very few Orna players even had celestial classes - so the data on Celestials is even more inaccurate to how they actually played.

[pallid stump]

deity is supposed to be a tanky class and it was also down there.

[austere shuttle]

But since new contents (tower and anguish), there have been clear gap between some classes. GS/Beo was the first on top, by far, so Gilga and RS received straigt boost to get closer with new abilities usefull. Heretic and deity are still way behind all the others

[lofty frost]

blame unstable omnimancy

[pallid stump]

"way behind", you're going too far here brother

[austere shuttle]

Meaning harder to access + still weaker (slower) with high AL, after more effort to reach it.

[austere shuttle]

That's just my personal datas 😋

[pallid stump]

but it has derailed toward power talk when imo the real issue is the lack of interaction with apex, especially in content like tower.

[austere shuttle]

It's linked. And this rework was made to adress both issues (identity+help reducing lack of efficiency in some contents)

[limber lily]

Well.

Apart endless, buff duration and DURsa ability to cast DC in free turn + longer buffs would make ang horde dungeons so much more easier. Even without Manyalus.

Towers is no buff at all, but ...as I'm trying Gilga now, the difference is not that big tbh. 🤷‍♂️

You can't trust just Abyss or whoever show up posting "top notch runs", regular daily content is not that bright.

[cyan mason]

Do we have a remote eta on the ship? Minus Odie saying it's soon?

[harsh void]

Just this from yesterday

[finite berry]

This. We don't really need a buff for towers, or any content for that matter. Back to one of my original points though, it would be nice to get a class passive or unique cele passive that is -usable- in all content. Like avidity/bb/ cd. Nothing in Deitys kit is remotely usable for towers. Just makes for bland runs/content.
But I digress. Hoping for an apex ability to redline easier for ursa

Feel like Deity has always been balanced enough, never needed buffs, just needed that fun factor and uniqueness when celestials came about

[autumn nova]

Maybe with staying power you can keep temp for more than one turn, that's usable in towers

[limber lily]

I don't think towers temps are affected by status duration.

[woven kayak]

I remember quite a while back Odie told me that they do>.>

[proper briar]

Well. They aren't 🤷‍♂️

Maybe they're supposed to be effected? But currently testing has shown that they don't appear to be.

[prime mountain]

Maybe do a bug report? Manyalus also isn't affected (atleast in my testing) but Odie said it should be

[subtle anchor]

So compiling what we've got for the last 20ish hours:

-We don't feel like the rework needs to be rushed though a live beta will help gather more data
-We want Apex to be usable in the majority or at least a good chunk of content without being broken or too power creepy
-We'd like tweaks on Apex Charge rates/caps to achieve this and hopefully the AoE spell and redline spell?
-We'd like clarity and/or bug fixes/changes on Manyalus's duration being affected by gear (and potentially tower buffs too?)
-Between Purple and Redline most want Purple though there is the caveat of if Redline had extra effects or started at 100% that might change for some
-We are appreciative of the hardwork from Odie and NF

Did I miss anything?

[austere shuttle]

Well done ! And indeed I (we) really appreciate the hardwork ! This game was, is and will always be a jewel 🥳

[coral rock]

#1219675348434812998 message
edit: A small boost for towers would simply be desirable. In my opinion that would be PotG but you can call it whatever you want (I don't see a redline apex ability being helpful because you have to fill your apex first and then use the ability, that's too much wasted time)

[finite berry]

Nailed it. Given where we are at now, this sums everything up

[teal girder]

Cactus is only really viable as clear on beo? Maybe I'm just ignorant, sorry if that's the case!!!

[woven kayak]

Fair didn't think of that.
Still imo, that either needs lots of AL to work, or Tamer, which is about the same as us just using an AoE spec for me

[teal girder]

Which would be fine if beo wasn't also (once again in my ignorant experience) regarded as one of the most powerful classes. Edit: my stance in general is agreeing with S2 and Orion.

[lofty frost]

definitely needs tons of AL to guarantee one shot of serks in ang50 or horses in towers with cactus

[indigo elk]

no one who is sane uses cactus in towers as a beo

[slow mantle]

The classes are FUN! I can't fully assess if they're meta worthy or not (can't mirror the beta due to a bug so using jank gear), but they're fun! And that means we're in the right direction.

Deity Ara:
Absolutely love building up my stat bonus via Apex! A ton of players are looking for this type of play style too. It currently takes a minimum of 30 turns to reach the maximum bonus, making it unusable in a ton of content, and SLOW in all other content. Most of this is offset by the random class buffs, but having an Apex spell that cost 50% of your bar instead of 100% would help reach this bonus in 15 turns, instead of 30 (bringing it in closer inline with double edge redlining), and who wouldn't love more Apex spells? I think such a spell should be added, and Neurtra Manyalus moved to Deity Ursa.

Deity Ursa:
Love the whole Apex to buff play style, but I feel like the "Neutra Manyalus" fits more Ursa than Ara play style.

Physical classes struggle with AoE damage, and this would be a nice boon, especially in the early game, before you have a ton AL.

[slow mantle]

I agree with everything you've said here, except perhaps the consensus on redlining.

The thing I'm most excited about is that Deity Ara is a class that DOESN'T redline/blueline. Lord help me we need more classes that don't have to do this.

I understand the allure of redline classes, for sure, and I wouldn't want sweeping changes to those classes.

But classes that redline/blueline make me feel like my resources are something to be discarded as fast as possible. My health and Mana become nuisances rather than feeling like actual resources.

[full vigil]

Sorry if this isn't the right place for this as it isn't really feedback, but how will the AI interact with the apex bar for land D and kingdom wars? Assuming there's no way to test in beta?

[limber lily]

Mirror? Arena?

[finite berry]

The consensus on redlining is based on Odie's latest message
#1219675348434812998 message
Nobody actually likes it. But if we are stuck with it, lets try to make it usable

[slow mantle]

Ohhh. If it's only for the Ursa, I'm fine with that. Purple line for that class definitely fits the theme.

[finite berry]

I agree with what you said in your previous message, but not this one 😂
You don't like redline/purpleline/etc but now you're ok with it?
Id say the majority of us dont like it, so just trying to get more alignment here

[slow mantle]

Well, I'll expound further to explain.

I hate all redline/blue/purple/ fucking rainbowline for all I care🌈, any of it.

Having a class that doesn't use this is exciting, like Deity Ara, and I'm super excited about it.

For Ursa, I wouldn't want it, but I couldn't argue that it doesn't fit the class thematically. Purple line would definitely be the better of the two options, though id MUCH rather D.Ursa get a stackable Apex buff like Ara does.

[finite berry]

Ok cool 👍 thats what I thought. Agree that Ara is a breath of fresh air (even tho charging passive has its own issues).
Just because lining fits thematically doesn't mean it's a welcomed change.
It's fine to keep it on base. I just dont get it on Ursa without -something- to set it apart. Otherwise we are sort of right back where we started where base and ursa are too similar. Even though apex interacts slightly differently on Ursa, the rest feels too similar.

[slow mantle]

I do agree it's awkward at best. What was the PotG3 thing people were talking about? Couldn't figure out the acronym on that one

[finite berry]

Power of the Gods 3. An upgraded version of the t9 god class passive

I dont think a ton of people actually wanted that tbh, just a few people were very vocal about it

[slow mantle]

Ohhhh. Yeah, i actually don't like the "hunting" passives. Even if they're easy to boost.

[pallid stump]

More than you care to admit. In fact you were the (only ?) most vocal against it and tried to bend the discussion away from it with because you find it "boring".

and you've to remember that most people don't even care coming here so it's a really small sample of players

[proper briar]

I see why it could be useful, but I'm not a particularly big fan of it either.

[opaque chasm]

I'm not a big fan either, but it's sooo much better than red/purpleline, which apparently are the only other options.

[finite berry]

Yeah sorry you're not gonna get away with that😂 there are plenty who didnt want it.

Ill say id still rather have it over redline/purpleline honestly, but that's not saying much.

[proper briar]

I am in the minority of being OK with the 80/50 purpleline passive, lol. I think it would be more fun to have Deity Ursa not be a redline melee class, but 80/50 purpleline is perfectly useable.

I'm not sure what I'd prefer instead tbh. PotG3 would be a consistent fast boost, but a much smaller one, which is why I'm not entirely on board. Copying Deity Ara's ability would make both celestials slow and remove some identity difference which was a major point of this beta in the first place.

80/50 purpleline either ramps up to a reasonable level quickly (quad edge + mana loss) or can be manipulated to a much larger boost (1 HP + intentionally lowering mana). That's why I think it works fairly well.

[pallid stump]

IMO between apex, temp buffs and potg3, it would have been on par with beoh but with temp buffs instead of pet. That's why I don't think about it as a downgrade.
80/50 sure is better than pure redline, but I just hate redline too much I guess (probably because zerk is such a big thing in the game).
But it wouldn't be so bad if redline started from 100%, which I don't understand why it's still not a thing.

[finite berry]

Itd be more acceptable if an apex skill leaned into it. You cant really redline well without DB up anyways, so it's more than just 2 quad edges

[proper briar]

Maybe I like risks too much, but I would 20% redline with only WoO up for dungeons and some raids 😅

With high HP, that lets you soak a fair amount of damage before death

[pallid stump]

problem is that redline make ursa a no for endless, raids (while doable with ursa redline) takes a while to setup DB+double edge and are much faster with 1T ultima anyways, no ang horde is basically free with any deity, tower/monument is CS but you'll never be able to redline. So basically only place were you can use the redline optimally is ang dungeons. Everywhere else it's a none factor.

Having potg3 would have only really affected ang horde while massively improving deity tower capabilities.

[proper briar]

What is it that you're expecting to get out of PotG3 in towers? The ability to comfortably use Sweep/MD?

[opaque chasm]

More stats => more anguish

[pallid stump]

currently in tower you only rely on your base stats because redline most likely not happening and t.buff are rare and too random to be really considered.
That pushs you toward CS builds to compensate and the day CS is nerfed on classes not gilga... sad day.
Plus your first clears are not good when you don't have AL and powerful gear. I did mine on GS because of that.

[prime mountain]

I never understood why people are asking for PotG 3 seeing as how gursa and beoH are both on a 20% passive 😅

[opaque chasm]

GUrsa has CD, BeoH has HM

[prime mountain]

BeoH already does incredible things on t1 and the stats are somewhat comparable to deity? What would justify a 50% (?) stat boost

[opaque chasm]

Number isn't important. If 50% is too much, reduce it.

[proper briar]

For Bleevoe's point, I hadn't considered that. That's fair.

For what you're saying Orion, I wouldn't exactly want to propose balance changes to Deity based on speculation about what might happen to CS at some future point. I'm also not sure if a straight medium damage buff would really be the help that early Deity needs in towers, without good gear it's likely still not enough to use Sweep or MD much better than they already can be used without high end gear.

It's funny that you swapped to GS. As soon as I could afford a celestial lute, I swapped to Deity because of how OP Deity with a lute is at early towers (compared to some other classes with no/one celestial purchase).

[prime mountain]

Yeah that's what i meant, thanks

[pallid stump]

IDK about gilga, but beoh is nowhere close to deity stats. It's 330+ att/mag at base, hybrid monster 3 and dragon slayer.

[finite berry]

Sounds like you should play BeoH

[prime mountain]

Making class comparison was probably stupid but it's not like deity ursa doesn't have it's own quirks like steadfast II, dursa passive or higher def/res/dex

[pallid stump]

you were the one starting the comparison here 🤷‍♂️

[prime mountain]

Yeah and i also stated that it wasn't a good idea

[finite berry]

Time to move on from PotG so we can be productive here

[prime mountain]

Yeah sorry

[slow mantle]

I think it's obvious that everyone wants something closer to what Gilgamesh can do, and that's have a stat boost ability that can be benefited from rapidly, so that it can be relevant in reset heavy content like Towers.

[proper briar]

Nope, everyone does not want that because that's PotG3, which we just established not everyone wants

[pallid stump]

1/ survey on 20 discord users doesn't represent a large enough sample to draw any conclusion.
2/ the only question asked was between reverse redline and potg3. Not between purple and potg3, which makes a big difference.
3/ not everyone =/= everyone not (that being the reason I responded in the first place).

[finite berry]

I urge you (and everyone who still wants PotG) to choose to move forward when we get feedback like this and either come up with new ideas to address the concerns, or accept things as is.

[slow mantle]

Kind of? People wanting potg3 just want an easy buff. Gilgamesh build and disperse the buff, but can also reach a full buff in a single turn.

Deity Ara has the worst buff of them all (perhaps the worst buff out of all classes, since it takes SO long to realize), yet I'm not really hearing much complaint about it.

This tells me that people want a buff that you build, and can do so quickly.

This main difference being, PotG3 you just get and carry through all the content for that day. People want to build the buff in combat.

[finite berry]

Id be happy to complain about Ara passive. Its only useful for endless in it's current state, and about 3 days a month in AW. Not much more to say though.
I appreciate that it is something new though, hence I'll keep my mouth shut.

The reason for us wanting Dursa to have something quicker is because of the directions these 2 celestials have taken to be different.
Ara leaned towards longer encounters
Ursa leaned towards quick encounters

Redline/purpleline is the opposite of quick encounter

[slow mantle]

Exactly. We want something new and interesting, and neither PotG3, redline, or purpleline archive this.

[loud geyser]

I thought the new and interesting was apex meter

[pallid stump]

ara passive was fine before the charge time nerf, the time required to charge 1 step has double while the actual bonus of a step has only gone from 15 to 20.
it's especially bad in dungeons where you can barely use apex 4 times.
But on the other hand it's the best endless passive by far.

[slow mantle]

Certainly is. But that's like saying "you got new shoes, you don't need anything else." Girl I need pants to match don't I? 💅🏻 ... And a purse.... And maybe 2 tops to go with it 💅🏻 💁🏻

[limber lily]

Odie responded to you he will optimaze it? 🤷

[loud geyser]

🚢

[slow mantle]

I'd love to see a % fading temp buff after using an Apex skill on D.Ursa.

You get your class stat buff up front, and early. But you DO have to maintain it, you just get to do without having to make your HP and Mana your own worst enemies haha

[teal kestrel]

Ursa was originally identified as outperforming Ara and base across all forms of content. Apex + free turn on Apex use + increased t. procs + high defensive stats + Steadfast + Second Chance is fine in my book; I don't think it needs anything else. I'd be happy for it to regain purpleline.

[pallid stump]

not quite sure, I may have missed it but what he said is that technically you can get up to 33% with 20% max from attacking. but while testing, it almost never happens (maybe sometimes you charge in 4 instead of 5 but that's still max 4 apex per dungeon.

[finite berry]

For the classline, yes. Apex (and staying power) is the new and interesting.

The other side of all of this is that the celestials played the same as base deity. Very little difference, and arguably worse in most content. The second goal here is to differentiate the celestials from each other and from base with unique playstyle/passive

[limber lily]

Suppose to be 1/3 of bar fill. Currently only 1/5 come from dmg. I suppose it will be 1/3 max, no matter source.

[slow mantle]

Truuuuuue.

[finite berry]

It doesnt need anything from a buff standpoint. Id agree with that bit

[pallid stump]

I read this as "you could optimize your build to get the 1/3 mark", which was not possible with double zerk at least.
But even then self damage with a redline class, not quite sure.

[lost orchid]

It might be worth focusing more on how redline/purpleline feel to play, rather than specific content.

If the concern is that those passive aren't fun, that is a much different conversation.

High tenacity makes redlining ~ok on base realm and corvus, but it always feels like a chore on Dorado, so I get the aversion to it as a passive. Especially in modern Orna where it usually just feels like a turn tax/annoyance compared to other passives and mechanics

And fwiw, the redlining experience on Dorado is way smoother compared to DUrsa. When I was testing on the beta it felt significantly worse than I'm used too

[harsh void]

Can't forget that gearing options will come that will assist with stream lining the usage of the new stuff. If it's great out of the gate, there's no room to build into it

[slow mantle]

Redline/Purpleline feels like you're discarding your resources as fast you can, turning your Mana or HP into a nuisance rather than a resource to cherish.

[slow mantle]

Gear being what makes a class play smoothly is definitely not the way I'd want to go. The core of the class should play smoothly, period.

[harsh void]

Everyone compares new stuff here to things like cd, etc. Cd is trash without building into it. Very forgettable

Also comparisons to gilga passive also reqs doing towers and getting a weapon/augments for that "one turn" activation of the passive. Which we are back to needing gear for smoothness of play

[slow mantle]

The mechanics of Gilgamesh play smoothly no matter what your gear is. Nothing about the gear changes the core gameplay of the class.

[harsh void]

Okay then, I'll see myself out. Def won't see eye to eye here

[pallid stump]

While I agree with you on the "build around it" part, gear and stances helping CD where introduced during the same beta so you knew what to expect from it. Meanwhile we've not seen nothing for apex. All we have is "there will be something" but we don't know what it is nor what it does. it's hard to judge a system without knowing all the parameters and yet that's what we're asked to do.

[harsh void]

Oh fer sure I completely understand the point of view

[finite berry]

Id love to poll something here.

Ursas unique stat passive:

1: Redline or Purpleline
2: Something else

[proper briar]

I voted both since I'm not unhappy with purpleline per-se, but something else could be better. Reminder that Odie would rather not create something completely new for DUrsa at this time though

[pallid stump]

honestly at this point, it could also come as a QoL update for redlining (for example starting from 100%, 1 turn 100% absorption...). Like bwubble said, redline feels a bit outdated in the current game so a change to redline at base can help more than deity while limiting the changes to dursa.

[limber lily]

It's not like other classes has 3 different abilities across their base & cele classes. It is one different and one similar.

[slow mantle]

If he's going to dismiss what people are asking for, then why not ship this shit through and be done with it lol?

[slow mantle]

Thank you for starting this lol.

[pure cove]

What you said I also supplement with 1. We have proper purpleline on base deity so its not like that mechanic is gone 2. It really just struggles to fit thematically with what Dursa is meant to be. Not saying it has to put all its eggs in one basket but as of now redline doesnt really address any of the issues that Deity as a whole can face and doesnt offer it any real unique or fun gameplay beacause of it. As former RS and current Deity I strongly agree that it feels taxing and unrewarding to try and use and something else would just feel so much better to use. And if it manages to offer unique gameplay or address any issue that Deity currently has in its gameplay(people always argue tower speed, though I dont see a very streamline and non broken way of touching on this) then all the better.

[finite berry]

The results speak for themselves, pretty high turnout already

Of the 6 that voted keep red/purpleline, 4 also voted for something different. So really only 2 votes for keep.

[finite berry]

Deities have been patient for this change. What's another week. Apex is fine, it's gonna work, we can get more data when this ships later. Lets do this right. No rush

[pure cove]

In line with disliking of the lines in the poll I will throw this out. Not comprehensive of previous ideas or only ideas I have come up with but just some refresh/fresh concepts.

Only things I cant remember a direct response to or I can think of now:

• Apexlining(stat bonus increases as Apex does, encourages you to save it instead of use it like Ara. Serves as almost a counter to Ara. Also plays into UO being better at full Apex)
• Flat Stats boost for X turns when dodging an attack(encourages building of Dex in a unique way while also avoiding similarities to RSD)
• Stat Boost on T. Buffs(up to whatever cap) This is a bit awkward imo but plays into fast play and kills. (Get kills for high T. procs. T. Procs boost stats. Allows even useless T.s to be beneficial)
• Some other HP scaling technique since Reverse isnt liked. Something like raw HP requirements? In line with how Dorado wants to increase Dex for its boosts. Maybe increasing HP on Deity could: Increase Def/Res, Boost Crit Chance and/or Crit Damage. I actually like this, it still allows for early access to buffs and could give specific buffs and not just + all stats. Crit stuff especially is cool and always fun, even if its just one or the other. Also plenty of +HP gear that is usable or desirable so no drastic reworking needed.
• DW Bonus. Make DW more effective and some other boost. Akin to Gursa
• Petless. Raw stat buffs for no pet equipped. Idea I had before even that Regalia thing got added. This could be far more fleshed out then just a piece of gear and could be fairly substantial for what you are losing while also being limited enough that it cant serve as a replacement for real/longer content. This also a Tower booster dor those wanting it. Also if that thing isnt that bad then Deity having this passive could make it a vehicle for that weapons use since you can further boost stats. Maybe.

[pure cove]

Also I will add Reverse redlining for just offensive buffs(Att,Mag,Dex). This gets rid of the turtling issue mentioned while maintaing quick and fun passive.

[finite berry]

I will second this one specifically

Vote!
#1219675348434812998 message

[jade patrol]

Not to be a killjoy but reverse redlining would mean higher stats than beo turn 1 if full hp. While having steadfast/high stats and all other perks.
Doubt that will happen unfortunately.
Petless(why would a god need pesky pets!) or 2h bonus- dursa has that big ass 2h sword sprite is interesting.

[slow mantle]

Why not have Ursa just get a buff for each Apex spell used like Ara? And just have it gain less buff per use? Seems simple enough to me.

Unless the whole point IS to differentiate the two classes.

[indigo elk]

We want it to be different no? People are complaining the way it is right now on live because it is too similar

[slow mantle]

Ahhhhh. Gotcha.
So we want something different the base Diety, and Ara. I can dig it.

[coral rock]

My main focus would be adapting Ursa's passive to his style of play. quick content without much preparation. Ursa is made for horde content.
stat gain on apex use is quite slow for that. Just like red and purple lines don't really fit Ursa's concept.
and I would also celebrate it if the passive isn't exactly the same as Ara. Otherwise it has a bit of a bland taste.

[slow mantle]

Hmmm. would you be willing to lose offhand bonuses to do it?

The Ursa class feels like a 2h specialist, so 80% stat buff if not using an offhand?

[limber lily]

the thing is, any perma stat of 40% and higher given free from start is just too much in any way ...

80% is just crazy much

[jade patrol]

Yeah even gursa is only 25% 2h bonus
A 15-20% all stats(hp+mana to) if petless🤔.
Oh well some people have brighter bonus ideas but it all depends on Odie in the end

[autumn nova]

Why petless tho? Tbh trading 20% stats for a pet seems a ripoff

[lofty frost]

we're at that point where instead of stat minmaxing people now minmax frames/animation speed in content, and petless means less unnecessary frames

[pure cove]

Yup this is the idea. Petless allows for faster content in 2 manners 1. Animation/Actions as bfff said 2. Pets take turns to be useful. Especially if you want a pet to give you a specific buff like zerk you could be waiting 5 turns for your Att buff. You could argue building act rate which helps lessen this issue but thats still solving part of the problem and petless would allow adorn freedom here. Raw stat buff allows you to be stronger and faster off the bat but as the battle progresses having a pet would generally be more useful(ward turns, DC, Lotan weakness). Ursa ofc could still use a pet but just an extra buff w/o it with this idea.

total sidebar but I like thematic choices and classes to stand out in more visual or "role"-esque ways instead of just one using blue bar and ine using red. Things like petless I think are a fun way to integrate those ideas making you feel ACTUALLY different from other classes or players instead of everyone and every class sort of just mehsing together in the endgame.

[jade patrol]

👆 exactly

[pallid stump]

I don't think petless should be the target. This frame optimization thing is basically only for high AL players. Between this and potential upcoming AL changes I'm not a fan of the idea (unless the bonus REALLY is something considering how good pets are nowadays).

[proper briar]

It's a cool idea for endgame player speed, but I also feel like petless makes a class less interesting.

[jade patrol]

Can't please all alas.
But it opens up an option for said High AL players in tower while low AL still have base deity for dungeon- raids / Ara for endless orn farm.

Otherwise with purple lining even Low AL dursa have clunky mechanism.
But I do get future AL change mention.

[pure cove]

There were several listed, petless not even being the one I prefer lol :/ just explaining for those talking about it

[finite berry]

If some ideas seems OP, just pick more balanced values. 20%/30%/40% idc. More about the playstyle and fun factor than buffs

[sour thistle]

Petless or reverse line of some sort sound like interesting ways to create a unique playstyle that is hopefully a little faster gameplay. Though would prefer some change on the current state of red/blue/purple lining.

[proper briar]

Alright, very random idea:

What if Deity Ursa started with a full Apex bar?

I haven't thought about the full repercussions of this yet, but it'd solve the complaints about Apex having no immediate use in towers.

[finite berry]

Sounds OP. Barrialus+Golem + phoenix DC turn 1, cant be killed

Since there were concerns about turtling already

[hushed moss]

What about :

• Apex meter persistent across Tower ?
• Make Elemental Apex AOE ?
  😅

[proper briar]

Yeah, it likely is too OP in PvP situations.

[finite berry]

Guaranteed too OP. Don't give me access to that😂

[proper briar]

If that worked differently in PvP, would it be too OP outside of PvP? That's really what I'm thinking about.

I'm just trying to come up with a straightforward solution that's easy for Odie to implement and solves some of the remaining complaints.

[pallid stump]

only place affected I think is tower and world farming
but sure it should not exist in pvp, ever.

[finite berry]

-Manyalus, smack, smack, manyalus, smack, smack
-Guaranteed turn 1 DC, can couple with TMM using some broken stuff from recent gear (zerk chest)

Those are the most OP PVE scenarios off the top of my head.

[finite berry]

Uhh raids? See my 2nd bullet

[pallid stump]

wdym raids ? we already obliterate them anyways. and even with that I would pick ara for raids.
but yes, it pairs too well with mimic. not winning turn 1 in tower becomes very difficult.

[finite berry]

We dont need something to make towers better, we just want something immediately usable. @proper briar it sounds fun, think it was suggested before, but dont know how to make it not broken without nerfs to apex skills

[pallid stump]

currently, it has no use in tower. so having it turn 1 make it usable.
the only reasonable solution to fix the strength problem would be weaker versions of the spell that only require a fraction of the bar for weaker effects. Unfortunately Odie already said he don't want that.

[austere shuttle]

When apex is full, the first (and only first) skill used hits one extra opponent + spec available on BoF guild wich allow to start with full apex on PvE content and a chance (lower than DoF/BoF) to receive one extra turn when temp buff appear during this turn

[hollow reef]

Today's changes:

• Apex meter is now persistent across Tower encounters
• Elemental Apex (T8-T9) abilities are now AoE

[prime mountain]

how do you do it

[proper briar]

Huh, alright then 🤔

Edit: in a good way

[hollow reef]

do what?

[prime mountain]

come up with these ideas, i like them

[hollow reef]

heh, i don't know 🙂

[pallid stump]

no purpleline on ursa or just not noted ?

[hollow reef]

oh, i can make that change today too

[austere shuttle]

AOE apex 😱😱😱

[prime mountain]

if only the t9 apex spells were skills

[pallid stump]

aren't they both in the sense they use your highest stat ? (like neutra eventualus does)

[proper briar]

They use your Attack or Magic, whichever is highest

[prime mountain]

Oh yeah

[pallid stump]

only downside I see is it's element so can be resisted / immune, and you only have access to your own element
Like the fight you're showing yoshi, as a water I can't use mine because it's all immune

[indigo elk]

full aoe t1? seems good

[proper briar]

It's only T1 if you've charged it on other encounters

[austere shuttle]

I love it

[indigo elk]

should be a slight boost when used with CS i guess(?)

[austere shuttle]

DoF + CS + this and it seems really nice for towers

[pallid stump]

preferably on base deity because ursa have a terrible multiplier on his apex damage

[indigo elk]

i cant test atm, but do we have an approx m1/m2?

[finite berry]

What are the aoe spells meant to help exactly? I can only see use case for the 5-6mob tower encounters

[proper briar]

M1 = high, M2=1
iirc

Will be testing this properly later, this may just be Neutralus

[austere shuttle]

Help against many tower stack IMO, those with only trash mobs and 1 boss + trash mobs

[subtle anchor]

Ara in horde dungeons

[austere shuttle]

Doesn't seem too OP, and provide some help for Ara horde too

[pallid stump]

Would have been better if the aoe spell was elementless tho.

[finite berry]

Ok cool so all of the 'oh no my towers' folks should be happy now. Huge buff there imo

Running a beta tower now as 0 AL dursa and its pretty nice ngl.

Chanelalus on the heretic encounter (high hp to overcome)
And apex use lets my pet ( TMM) get a free turn too

[austere shuttle]

It's a downside, but I guess it's a fair one

[finite berry]

Anyone not running bard or charmer as ara in horde tho? Dont see it as help there

[subtle anchor]

It's so you don't miss a turn to Apex and proc your passive

[austere shuttle]

It helps A LOT. As for now, having to loose a turn while using apex to benefit from stat boost was just a pain / live.

[surreal solar]

I run bard for horde except towers. If apex aoe better there then I’ll possibly use it but why not just use ara vesta

[finite berry]

Ok cool so this was welcomed. Testing going pretty smoothly in both areas (dungeons/towers) on both classes rn for me on beta. If changing purpleline (pretty awful and unfun ngl) is off the table then lets ship.

Purpleline legit my only gripe with these changes at this point. If everyone else happy with it, so be it. But poll suggested otherwise.

[austere shuttle]

And it helps in tower IMO too, we will still be able to use CS and be little quicker when seing full trash mobs / one boss + trash mobs stack on tower. Not too OP, but still a nice help and different from other classes abilities

[surreal solar]

Doing 10k with no buff I guess isn’t bad in towers. Looking forward to test when releases

[austere shuttle]

Opens many build ideas

BoF runs for quicker tower low anguish... Rebirth of 2H weapons... And more to come with apex addorns !? Feels nice as it will provide some nice build try and feels different / other classes abilities. I m really hyped ! Thank you Odie !

[finite berry]

Rebirth of 2h weps?

[mystic basin]

oh man, now the God tree feels like a god

[austere shuttle]

It could be something in tower IMO yes ! Allow you to bump att/mag stat on first turn to have better use of the AOE spell. I m sure several players will try it when it will be live !

[finite berry]

Im not sure im seeing what you're seeing here

[austere shuttle]

I m seing those kind of things !

Change it with physical 2H weapon on Dursa, as he can charge apex faster, and I m sure there s something to do with it on tower, to have something different than the usual 1H+shield

[finite berry]

Still unsure where the 2h comes in here
At 123 ALs you can probably do towers naked anyways

[subtle anchor]

I like these changes a lot. Purple line or not, they feel solid.

It looks like charge rates are still identical on all 3 so that would be my one nitpick.

I'm less concerned about this in PvP after trying it out plenty since a BeoH can melt through any defenses I can come up with and I'm sure BoF and Rend/Epee and Cele Lute in general will keep the damage valid for charge rates.

Even if base and Ara charge slower, Ursa is not currently charging faster

[austere shuttle]

AoE apex = low penetration abilities. 2H + trev charm = high att/mag stat to help in first turn while keeping good ward.

[pallid stump]

you could achieve higher stats with lute tbh

well maybe not (because trev is broken and you can also equip pumpkinless and top hat), but close enough

[finite berry]

Do you need ward in towers? Im pretty sure aoe apex with CS/AV2 will make every encounter close to a 1 shot. All you need is a high HP/starting ward pool
No m1 boost necessary with something other than selene lute

[pallid stump]

I tried that on live dursa with great bow, trevs, zwei and was able to reach something like 12k att at AL 34. The first tun sweep was still meh

[finite berry]

You must be referring to Anguish Towers?

[austere shuttle]

Yes

[finite berry]

Ah yes the top 0.00001% activity

[austere shuttle]

It's Indeed far from being optimized but could offer some new ways to run tower, I don't know. I m maybe too hyped with the news of the AoE apex 😁

[lofty frost]

oh no my anguish towers

[pallid stump]

doing a tower with dursa, apex damage is so low and too many mobs resistant /immune to water that wintara is useless but it's nice to have a reserve DC in the pocket for combat you'd consider too hard without it

[subtle anchor]

I'm curious if we can get clarity on Ursa charge rates and then Manyalus duration being extendable? Those are my final nitpicks.

But I like the tower QoL and I like the AoE abilities too

I'm excited to try some of it out with my actual gear hopefully soon!

[coral rock]

Couldn't you achieve all 4 elements if you change your faction an buy other t9 classes?

[pallid stump]

p2w ?

[coral rock]

Let them earn some money 😂

[mystic basin]

i already have earth and ice, i guess i will pay to get the other 2 😛

[finite berry]

Yeah use a different element its nbd. It definitely sucks that you have to faction swap for all of the elements

[cyan mason]

Love the changes, super pumped

[pallid stump]

At least on dursa, the aoe spell feels useless in tower anyways. Not enough damage compared to other options like manyalus or channelalus. But being able to use apex in tower, while not really being too strong, definitely feels nice. Your not faster, not really stronger, but it's a nice addition that will 100% help undergeared people climbing their first towers.

[limber lily]

I mean, ang towers is pretty much only thing I do. And probably many other players. Where else ang boost you? Ang50 horde is achivable for almost everybody and AL just let you equip orn items. Tower for more shards.

[prime mountain]

Keep it mind that even if you're not using an apex ability it still removes UO weakness

[pallid stump]

It removes all weaknesses, and yes I know that's why I kept it unless I needed a DC for a fight vs troublesome mobs like nidhogg. But having it fully loading when facing arcane trolls is glorious.

[limber lily]

I mean, just ship it. And I'm buying next HoC from shop. 😬

[odd quest]

Great additional changes! 🔥
I think all left are DUrsa unique stat passive and apex charging speed tweak (this can be adjusted after live testing)

[pallid stump]

hopefully it arrives at the same time as terra's legacy 🙏

[limber lily]

I don't see reason for that, you already have free turn as apex ability. Pretty solid. Together with other thing (staying power, proc on kill)

[odd quest]

I don't think majority of us prefer having redline/purpleline compared to other unique stat passive

[limber lily]

I don't know what mean other unique passive stat. Also, it is not like other classes has something special. Apex is. Second cele being same as main. Usually same patern as in other classes. There are not 18 unique passives for everybody.

[finite berry]

Yes this

[cyan mason]

Think Odie said it wasnt but I'm hopeful

[tacit quail]

Yeah he'd mentioned they aren't to go out at the same time. #1219675348434812998 message

Maybe with such a positive response that could change, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

[finite berry]

#1219675348434812998 message

[austere shuttle]

If tower "issue" has been (at least partly) solved with today update on beta, I think maybe one previous idea (can't remember exactly who shared this one, and I will change something in it) could help : link passive stat boost with apex on both celestials, but in a slighly different way :

• Ara has more "power" on offensive apex, so it could be nice to have stat boosts % only when using offensive apex skills, including the new AoE one. Keeping 25% stat boost on each as it charges slower, with max at 125%.
• Dursa charge faster (or will at some point 😋) and have free turn on apex, so it could maybe be nice to have stat boost % only when using apex buff skills. 10-15% (or so) stat boost on each use, but to avoid being necessary to cast them a lot to have descent %, keep redline system in addition with % to determine

To summarize : both apex + redline for Dursa stat boosts

(I would say 15% on each apex buff skills for Dursa with a max 60% + redline max to 50-70%? It keeps Dara as endless specialist as it can keep 125% locked, and keep Dursa as horde/faster content specialist as it charges quicker + benefit from free turn)

[austere shuttle]

All right. Saw your feedback. Sorry for the bad idea then 🙂👌

[subtle anchor]

1. Are the charge rates working as intended? 20% Damage cap is making all 3 charge at the same rate unless you are taking damage from enemies however seems to be higher in horde dungeons for some reason as they are taking 4 turns to charge rather than 5 on occasion - this is 4 turns without letting enemies get a turn

2. Can Manyalus's duration be extended? Or is that also bugged? If it is not able to be, I'd just like to know.

3. We were told any turn passing is supposed to charge Apex a little but currently it appears only enemy turns charge apex as my bar doesn't move up at all on my turns if I'm not dealing damage

4. Does self damage do anything for apex? I thought it did per Odie's response to Orion but Berserk and Quad Edge don't actually appear to do anything to the Apex bar

I'm pretty satisfied as is (on the beta) to at least be able to try out on live beta or live itself aside from wanting to understand where Apex is at.

If the charge rates/caps are going to be the same, Ursa's text shouldn't say any faster since it most certainly doesn't charge any faster right now.

[subtle anchor]

Adding to the above-

I'm actually okay if Apex
Charge rates are just normalized between all 3 Deity classes.

Ursa gets the benefit of being able to take an extra turn immediately

Ara gets its passive and procs

And base doesn't need either of those to keep chugging along like it already does.

It makes the passive easier to understand for all 3

It would make balancing the charge rates/caps and hypothetical future adornments a lot easier

I also think it might be easier to justify upping the damage cap to 25% on all of them if Ursa doesn't speed that along even more

[finite berry]

Ill second this. Agreed. Charging rates should be equalized. No reason not to. Helps both, hurts neither

[pure cove]

Yeah I think charge rate does need a bit of tweak just numbers wise and feel I tend to agree with other guys that maybe normalization is best if we are to get gear/adorns/new apexs down the road for balance purposes. Id be okay with diff charge rates if thats something that doesnt want to be budged on tho

[slow mantle]

This is .. very interesting and entirely unexpected! I'll have to try it out!

[slow mantle]

Could you not unlock the other God classes by changing factions and get them all?

[coral rock]

I support this view. but would then tend to cancel out the reduced damage of Ursa's apex abilities or at least not reduce the damage so much.

Erdr1ck's summaries are very clear and helpful. Thanks Erdr1ck

I would like to point out again that almost 80% voted that they would like another stat passive better than purple/redline. Or a change that redline is activated from 99% HP would be welcome.
#1219675348434812998 message

[austere shuttle]

Seems fair, and could help in towers with Dursa

[pure cove]

Ursa or All Redline starts from 100%.

Tweak Apex gain rates and either universalize or fix Ursa so it does actually charge faster.

Ship it... This is a good finished product and means no more time in the kitchen if its taking too much devtime. If Odie is willing to take another approach to Ursa stat passive thats fine and what the majority of players desire. If not then whats above I think is a finished product and servicable.

[jade patrol]

Didn't expect such great change for towers
Using apex for key moments is really good for anguish towers!

If we get some tweaks on ursa line great if not ready to test

[pallid stump]

you can, but it'll cost you 4€ to do so and you don't have any free option. Not a fan of that TBH. I'm gladly buying sprite packs (because the real endgame is matching your sprite with your pet), but buying this kind of thing is off limit for me. It wasn't really a problem before because you didn't get anything really good from it but now it looks like you need it if you want to really use the AOE apex skills.

[pallid stump]

I'm pretty much ok with this but maybe a modification on dursa apex damage nerf could come to compensate because right now 2000 blades and neutra eventualus are dealing LESS damage than viperstike 3 on dursa.

[austere shuttle]

I understand your point, but on the other hand, as AoE apex will be used on tower most of the time I don't really see many tower trash mobs stacks immune to one particular element ?

But I agree could be nice to have access to all of them without buying for sure

[pallid stump]

there're many mobs resisting / immune to water at least

[austere shuttle]

You re right indeed

[opaque chasm]

I love the change to towers! It has the potential to not only bring Deity on par with other classes in towers (or maybe even better, no clue about balance yet), but also make tower gameplay significantly different from other classes and also with more interesting choices!

I now think we have a good set of core mechanics and the rest is just tweaking/balancing.

I have long been worried about not being happy with the new (and old) Deity and was pretty much resigned to buying that heart of change. Now my faith is restored and I hope to stay Deity for a long time!

[slow mantle]

In all fairness, I'd front the money for all the extra effort Odie has been putting into this rework.

Though leaving my kingdom even for a second do it would hurt my soul, since I've been in it for years haha

[pallid stump]

Like I said, I don't care giving money to NF, I've some sprite packs. What bothers me here is the reason to put money in. It's very clear from how the game is made that pay to win is not an option in NF mind and that's why I consider this particular topic a problem.

[finite berry]

All of these apex changes are great. I think this classline identity is headed in the right direction.

The one thing I have been pushing for from the beginning is:
-Different Celestial Playstyles/identities than Base-

I believe Ara has somewhat achieved this with temp buff proccing on Apex use and Apex use stat compounding

I do not believe that Ursa has achieved this.
Primary differences between Ursa and Base playstyle:

1. ursa gets a turn on apex use
2. ursa temp buff procs when mobs die
   #2 here does not actually do anything for the class. You barely need additional temp buffs in horde on top of normal lugus, which is the only place where this difference could ever be useful.

Therefore, the only real difference between Base and Ursa is 'extra turn on apex'

Ursa and base both have purpleline.

One might argue - Heretic base and Heretic Ara both have blueline too, and realm base / realmC both have redline. So what?

Realm corvus crit chains and has no life siphon, which is a HUGE DIFFERENCE in how the classes play.

Heretic Ara has no max damage, which is a HUGE DIFFERENCE in how it plays from base.

All I am looking for is a legitimate difference in how the classes play that is not tied to the classline passive (apex).

There are already a boat load of passives on this classline, so I figured the easiest way to do this is change an existing Ursa passive to something different. Hence the push for changing purpleline.

[pallid stump]

Heretic is even worse than that. All 3 have iconoclast. Only diff is corvus don't have mana rush.

On the topic of ursa, IMO the free turn is so much game changing that it's enough to differentiate it from base in most content (for it really push you toward using buffs over damage skill).

[limber lily]

Just to note. I like proc temp buff on kill. It's massive boost for horde.

[finite berry]

Having tried it on 0 ALs i honestly dont feel the difference. My temps still proc plenty on hit for me to complete the content with ease. I dont consider this one very useful

[pallid stump]

comparing them from live game with beta (running CS), I definitely see a difference between the proc on kill and the addition of staying power.

in beta it's not rare to have all 3 buffs

[austere shuttle]

I have always been playing on temp buff and it has always been fun, I m glad it will be more effective with the rework 🙏🤞

[finite berry]

So the only difference between base is 'ill use buffs when apex bar hits'?

And yes im running 0 AL on both - staying power definitely helps on Beta, but the actual buff proc rate in horde doesnt really need a boost
@pallid stump

[austere shuttle]

Dursa will also have free turn on apex so easier to have your temp buff when you need them

In horde dungeons, it was harder for deitys to run high anguish (more AL needed, more RNG), and I guess all those changes will help players having an easier time with it

[subtle anchor]

I think S2's point is that though Heretic differences are small, they enable large differences
whereas Ursa/Base Deity's differences are small and don't enable large differences.

Refuting this would be saying that small Stat differences + extra proc chance on kills + extra turn on Apex cast is a big enough difference.

I think there's some merit to both sides though a small tweak somewhere feels like all it would take to make both happy.

[limber lily]

DUrsa sweep with ward pet instewd dc. Yummy.

[cyan mason]

Can't wait 🚢

[finite berry]

The amount of wording involved in describing the differences creates an illusion that there actually are a ton of differences.

'small stat differences, extra proc chance on kills, extra turn on apex cast'

This seems like way more than it actually is.

• The temp buff proccing occurs so much without having to kill in horde already, and is made better than before plenty already with Staying Power. This is absolutely an unnecessary passive.
• Small base stat differences arent actual differences.
• extra turn on apex use is the only difference here. This basically means 'Ursa uses apex buff skills more than base'. Is that really what everyone wants to be the main difference?

If so, ill shut my mouth, happily let these changes happen, and go play another class. But polls and other votes from quieter folks have made me feel otherwise.

[limber lily]

Mhm, seems we have different experience with temps. Currently in live (and with 50% status duration) I don't have temps up enough time in horde and it is usually difference between life and death.

And it is also reason why I don't like run horde as Deity. It whole stays on temp buffs and it is so much rng as they go away too fast.

[finite berry]

That is because of staying power. Period. Do not confuse status duration with temp buffs proccing

[austere shuttle]

I understand S2iVi point and the polls and votes show players would like something different. I also totally agree with Gurn about horde anguish as deity, and think that those changes will help a lot removing this (too) annoying RNG thing on live version of deitys when trying to play on temp buff.

[limber lily]

Well, staying power will help for sure. Idk if it will be enough by its own, that's why I mentioned the status duration amity.

[finite berry]

~oh no my horde anguish50~
Its all CS anyways and deity will be able to do it regardless of temp buff proccing on kill. Really guys

[subtle anchor]

Throwing this probably horrible idea out because I can:

I would change my vote to redline on Ursa if redline started at 100%

And/or

Ursa had Mana removed entirely and HP buffed according (to not drop ward too much) and gained "your spells and abilities will spend health instead of mana" might need life siphon to go with it too, I dunno.

[limber lily]

Also it is reason why I would like it in live. The apex is already pretty complex by its own. Together with all those small changes.

[austere shuttle]

Again, I agree with you on your ask for a change regarding purpleline as many asked for it.
To answer to this spicy comment (I Can understand your frustration), no, deity anguish is not all CS 😅 to CS you don't really need to rely on temp buff that much.

[limber lily]

Bleh, I don't CS in horde ang. Sorry.

[finite berry]

Well that's the reality of literally every class doing ang50 minus BeoA/GS

[limber lily]

No it is not. 😅

And this changes will help a lot with it

[austere shuttle]

And that's the thing. Deity CS is just weak/slow version of RS/Gilga, so no thank you ! I play MD on anguish and sweep is also a thing (better than MD IMO) BUT it involves too much RNG and in the end it's less effective than other classes (to summarize). Those changes (temps buff duration+temps buff on apex+apex skills+lute...) helps a lot reducing the so annoying RNG factor currently on live version, and offer some nice and fun builds available earlier (lower AL) than live version

Again, it doesn't mean that I m against the idea of something different than current purpleline

[finite berry]

Ok guys.

I just did DUrsa AL 0 Anguish 50 in main game first try.

I even had a floor with multiple realms.

Please come up with better arguments here.

[austere shuttle]

Do you really want me to answer as you just did with some kind of "oh no my ridiculous RNG and or slow video that no one will be able to use effectively on usual runs"

[sterile jewel]

seriously 😅

[finite berry]

Proof:

[subtle anchor]

Let's get back on track with beta stuff-

Outside of having very high ALs, I think the average player is taking Chained Shield 99/100 times over Sweep and/or Mage Dance/Pavanne for Anguish 50

[finite berry]

Youre doing it wrong

[austere shuttle]

I'm sorry, and I can understand your frustration and again, I m on your side for a change regarding purpleline. But it has to be something that gives nearly same thing as current purpleline because it's a real need if you want to avoid CS spamming as deity, wich is just the slow version of Gilga/RS, and IMO it's really not fun to play..

[finite berry]

So back to my original point, dursa does not need these temp buff procs on death, Beta Dursa is constructed too similar to base.

[austere shuttle]

Come on ! It's so annoying to see those kind of non realistic things as a proof !

[finite berry]

Fun factor is something i can absolutely get behind and is exactly what im fighting for. Temp buffs proccing on deaths or purpleline isnt going to solve anything.

How is that image not realistic? First try, 0 ALs, no staying power, no beta apex buffs. -Nothing-. Boom anguish50

[austere shuttle]

Again, I m fine if purpleline change. Regarding efficiency, I can tell you for sure it will help A LOT regarding usual and realistic anguish for deity

[cyan mason]

He's not really. I can sweep as well on ang37. The only reason I don't go high is because DC doesn't stay up long enough. With all the procs popping off and apex stuff sweep will become.super viable for.diety Ang50. CS doesn't need to be meta for everything and sweeping imo is more fun than CS literally everywhere.

But again back to beta

[austere shuttle]

How is this no realistic ? Just start 10 anguish 50 dungeons with this and come back. I m really annoyed with those kind of things, it's always what happen when someone is trying to talk about balance/effectiveness on contents such as anguish, there s always some untealistic video "proof"

[finite berry]

Flat miss chance on CS is what makes it meta for all classes. Otherwise youll miss immo lords to infinity

[cyan mason]

Does everyone forget perfect shot? Also not disagreeing it's meta, just saying it doesn't need to be all the time for fun lol

[subtle anchor]

I don't think AL 100 or thereabouts is usual 😅

I can respect the buffs helping or being more consistent so no issues there but I'd still take Chain Shield for safety's sake especially as someone who is not around 100 ALs and doesn't have much interest in ever being

[limber lily]

But you just used CS. Did you read what Goudine wrote? 😅

[austere shuttle]

It's not for deity ! On current version, it's too RNG dépendant and frustrating, but as someone who keep playing MD (same goes for sweep) regardless of not being the most effective thing, I see those changes as a HUGE HELP

[subtle anchor]

But guys we are really derailing this thread- can we propose other changes or ideas or if not taking temp buffs away or purple line then suggest other things or explain why you'd take that one or another away?

[finite berry]

0 ALs and it took no more than 5 minutes to complete 50 ang. Theres nothing else to discuss here. Its as realistic as it gets.

@cyan mason
Perfect shot is not Aoe, and since ur Zwei with sweep you do not get parting remark when you use it on an immo lord.

Dursa does not need temp buffs on kill.

Anguish 50 is a conversation for a different chat. None of these dursa changes should truly be based on anguish 50.

[cyan mason]

Doesn't need to be, sweep if miss perfect shot last mob keep going. I digress though. It's a different build doesn't need to be part of this convo lol

[austere shuttle]

It's just IMO what deity missed (something to reduce the RNG involved). And yes, I m sorry but after "working" so hard keeping playing with it for months when it was way less effective than "meta" classes, I m sooooo glad to receive a little help to be able to use something different as CS on dungeons 🤞🙏

[limber lily]

That you use CS and no other builds doesn't mean other want to do that. As you can see....

[finite berry]

Manyalus and 'extra turn' on Ursa with apex use already solve this.

Not 'temp buffs proc on death'

Once again, these changes should not be evaluated based on 'Can this do anguish 50 or not'

[austere shuttle]

I think it's better for everyone to move on from this particular topic, as Gurn and I will still be glad with those changes over Tbuff and other ones regardless of the potential change on purpleline (as long as the new Idea to replace it keep being as effective).

[limber lily]

It shouldn't be based on you saying "for me it is not neccessary, end of discussion" either. 🤷

[finite berry]

No, it is instead based on Odie saying multiple times that anguish 50 should not be made easier. Which you are blatantly ignoring here and pointing at me instead, yet again.

[limber lily]

And yet Manyalus and CS still exist.

[austere shuttle]

I have one offer : why not moving into voice chat ? Could help a lot I think

[finite berry]

Gurn and i rarely agree doubt itll help. Lets just move on. I made my point. Agree or disagree

[cyan mason]

Isn't about easier it's about efficency at any point. Most classes minus poor heretics can do Ang50 around 30-40Als which these days is considered easier to obtain anymore.

[austere shuttle]

To give more argument on this point, I am AL 120+ and I am now "only" able to run around anguish 40 with enough consistancy with MD with still lots of RNG.
Those changes don't make deity completely OP regarding this content, it just help a little those who want to have something different than CS.

In case, I m on party voice chat 1 🤷🏻‍♂️

[cyan mason]

Oh I agree, MD just suffers from damage ranges and miss chance as well. And again these changes help a ton for either. I don't see Diety being OP from any of these updates just more fluid

[finite berry]

I dont want 'CS variety' to impact this Deity change. It's the wrong approach. That is a problem on its own, and i 100% agree with it.
Manyalus already aims to help this.

[austere shuttle]

Again, no matter the way we see it, those changes (help on Tbuff, free turn apex...) will stay and it's fine.
So, what will be the thing that will :

• be different from purpleline but keep nearly same efficiency
• be ok for Odie
  🤞

[finite berry]

We can disagree with Tbuff procs on death doing anything for this class. And thats fine. We dont have to agree on anything.

Change purpleline keeping similar/relative efficiency is something I can agree with.

Back to my original points:
#1219675348434812998 message

#1219675348434812998 message

Appreciate the discussion all. Hoping to hear more from others that arent 100 AL.

[sterile jewel]

indeed we could finally get out of this difficulty on par with certain classes

[sterile jewel]

I am AL 25 😉

[finite berry]

I just ran ang50 on 0 AL on Dursa, with ease. Again, these changes should not focus on 'oh no my anguish50'

[sterile jewel]

my greatest wish is to be able to continue as a magician nothing more

[austere shuttle]

Again, I m ok with a change regarding purpleline. But your current behavior is annoying to be honnest. I kept playing mage knowing it was far from meta since anguish release, I "worked" like crazy just to have slowly a better feeling and efficiency on anguish dungeons. And you show up with your non realistic video that doesn't make any link and sense of what deity is on anguish.
So please stop with your "oh no" thing and understand that efficiency is one important thing too, and for now, the current changes help without being too OP, for everyone running deity, regardless of your AL.
So. What could we change regarding purpleline

[subtle anchor]

Alright all, if this is about to turn into a "my point is __ but you __" let's just curtail the discussion.

[hushed moss]

I'm not a pro player and I only have 40AL. Finishing an anguish 50 takes me 10min (twice as long as your AL 0 deity 🤔) and I have to be particularly careful because I can lose half of my guard in one turn.

[subtle anchor]

So... #1219675348434812998 message

[limber lily]

I think it is bugged for DUrsa as it still saying much much faster? And imo Odie save gap for gear to open more possible builds. And I wish there will be some and you can make stuffs with it. 🤷

[finite berry]

We are saying the same problem, we are disagreeing on how it can and should be fixed.

I really would rather not dwell on anguish 50. Been saying this every response. The only reason i ran it on my own at 0 AL was to prove a point. I already regret doing it, because now for whatever reason nobody is believing it is real. Sorry if that annoyed you.

I will withdraw from this conversation. I provided straight facts and they meant nothing. Not sure how else I can contribute

@austere shuttle lets target purpleline here 💪

[limber lily]

Well, but you showed that the problem is CS. Not temp buffs, cuz AL100+ player should be able to run ang50. Which Goudine can't....(Out of CS)

[subtle anchor]

If we target purpleline-

What about splitting it in two like Here Corvus's Iconoclast (Blue) + Mystic Feather (Red)

So Mana getting lower does one thing?

And health getting lower does another?

One does stats increase and the other does something else? Increased non-elemental damage?

[finite berry]

Think it should be more simple given that apex is a mountain to digest for people who havent tried it yet - taking what Odie already said about 'too many changes at once ' into account

[austere shuttle]

I really like it ! What do you think @finite berry ?

[subtle anchor]

I think that's fair but it could just read:

"You will be stronger with your HP decreases in battle."

And

"Your non-elemental damage (just an example) will be stronger as your Mana decreases in battle."

[finite berry]

Even if it just reads that, it's 2 more passives added in place of 1. Feels like overload

Im trying to trim this down if you feel

[subtle anchor]

Okay, I do understand that but that aside, would something along those lines fulfill the constraints of purple line but also interesting/variance?

[finite berry]

I struggle to see a way but i wont say it's impossible. Splitting purple into 2 passives is definitely more complicated no matter how you do it

I also dont see any reason or need to stick with anything purpleline related. Just a stat stick passive if you do a certain thing or build a certain way. Simple as that

I really liked 'play without a shield and gain X% stats '. Rewards dual wield for people who want full on glass, and rewards 2h which still retains a good amount of ward/survival.
Not restrictive at all. Boosts and rewards non SS3 play.

Can be worded as:
Demigod (Ursa)

• You are stronger when you fight without a shield.

% boost can be determined. 20%, 50%, 100%, dont care. Whatever everyone wants

[subtle anchor]

Again I'm following haha

I'd say since Odie said purple or redline previous post so I liked the idea of trying to work within those constraints if we can

But I think what you've got is pretty cool too

[finite berry]

The constraints exist because of him not wanting to overcomplicate things, due to the amount of changes already being implemented.

I would argue that:

Demigod (Ursa)

• you are stronger when you fight without a shield

Is very very uncomplicated and accomplished what many here would like (i think?)

I can think of so many fun ways to play this build, and how this synergizes with the new direction of Ursa with quick encounters. Truly believe this would be fun and balanced, as well as encourage use of items and playstyles that have gotten lost in the shuffle without being restrictive

[coral rock]

Problem: offhands not sorted by category. All of them the same, if it's a shield, a scroll, arrows,....

[finite berry]

Sure include all of those as the offhands

[coral rock]

Don't like this pure gear restriction.
I like it more if different weilding styles bring different things. But thats not simple and not what we are searching for.

[finite berry]

Any ideas on something similar?
This feels like the absolute least gear restricted restriction though, right? I cant think of something less restrictive

[subtle anchor]

Haha "when wearing gear of your factions elemental alignment, your stats will increase!" Jk plz don't

[austere shuttle]

Another bad idea on my side, keeping purpleline for stat boosts in addition with :

• when your health is lower, your apex charges faster
• when your mana is lower, apex skills are stronger

Always here with some bad ideas to make more focus on good ones 💪😁

[finite berry]

While I like the train of thought,

• Apex skills are already stronger when mana is lower in normal purpleline

• apex charging faster at low health isnt ideal because part of charging is taking damage. The charging faster of dealing damage would be cool though.

[coral rock]

I liked the idea "every activ temp buffs gives you +20% stats" at a maximum of 80%
Feels like we can build into that, it's fast and fitting for Ursa. 🤷‍♂️

With the changes from yesterday Deity is already saved. I can live with purple on Ursa, though something else would be cool.

[finite berry]

I like that idea too, but its too many layers of multipliers I think. Its also hard to count temp buffs sometimes when you have 10+ buffs active.

[coral rock]

Purple can give you 130% 🤔
Not really achievable, but 100% is not to hard.
And if it's showing the current state like redline or new Ara passive does in beta, not hard to track.

Edit: if I think more about it, it would be to op.
In towers you can start with 4 temp buffs what would be to much turn 1 stat boost

[pallid stump]

you don't have to count it now, it's written directly how much of a buff you have

[finite berry]

Yeah probably too OP in towers honestly. Like I said, don't dislike the idea, just dont think its the best solution. I feel like we can come up with better

[subtle anchor]

I kind of like the idea of Mana or health does stats and the other does increased Apex Cap on damage o.o similar to what Goudine said

But fun ideas in general popping up again

[sterile jewel]

I find it simple and effective difficult to find better but perhaps possible 🤷‍♂️

[austere shuttle]

Blueline + better apex skills damage with lower health ?

[finite berry]

This is already a hot mess. I dont think that is simple enough to add to all of this, and I think Odie would agree?

[subtle anchor]

I think Blueline already achieves the damage portion so increasing the amount you can charge via dealling damage would be the route I would take

Or make the Apex part blueline and redline do stats

[austere shuttle]

I think it doesn't solve the issue with the poll showing that blue/red/purple is maybe not idéal. But let's keep sharing ideas and maybe we ll agree on something.
And let's all buy a coffee in game for NF and Odie for all his efforts reading this Channel 🤣

[subtle anchor]

Good call- screenshots or no proof! JK xD

[austere shuttle]

Ok guys now we re good for 5 more bad ideas 😁

[subtle anchor]

Done! @austere shuttle do we get 10 more now?

[sterile jewel]

and even a croissant 🥐 🇫🇷 😜

[austere shuttle]

Shiny hat for deity !
(Sorry. But still 9 ideas to Come!)

[finite berry]

It ain't coffee but itll still buy a coffee 😅
Appreciate the NF Studio

[austere shuttle]

What do you all think about it?

To sum : "redline for stats, blueline for increasing the amount of apex you can charge via dealing damage"

[finite berry]

I compare Dursa with other classes like HCorvus, and cannot see a passive like this passing. Odie said he wanted purpleline because too much change already. We truly need something -simple- if we want it implemented
I like the idea, i just dont think itll fly. Being realistic. Look at how simple HCorvus is in comparison.

I see 2 types of passives - one that scales, and one that is a conditional flat bonus.
Example:
Resurgence -scaling to 100% damage at 1hp
Vs. Hercules - Shield gets a 15% stat boost

Which do we prefer? Something scaling, or something flat? I prefer flat but conditional, as this is more simple on a class that is already getting complicated

[austere shuttle]

(I agree, it would give something like : demigod (Ursa) you become much more stronger when your hp decreases in battle and your apex charges faster when your mana decreases in battle)

[austere shuttle]

If it's only one that give permanent bonus flat, it becomes maybe really hard to balance (stronger earlier but weaker on long run?)

[austere shuttle]

So I would answer... Both 😅

[sterile jewel]

I would prefer an evolving bonus for my part

[austere shuttle]

Demigod (Ursa) : you gain defenses* when not using a shield and you become much more stronger when your hp decreases

[subtle anchor]

I would be okay with a defensive focused flat as a counterpoint to BeoH but I'd prefer scaling

[finite berry]

Id be ok with an evolving / scaling bonus if it weren't tied to HP/mana honestly

[finite berry]

Id live with this but i would rather it be 1 thing: 'you gain X as Y increases/decreases' with a solid period

What about - 'Reducing ward increases stats X%'?

[austere shuttle]

Seems hard to manage

[sterile jewel]

not convinced I have the impression of coming back to heretics

[finite berry]

But as an example. 'as X changes, you gain Y stats'

Something not hp, mana related. Could be build/stat related .

[austere shuttle]

Hybrid defense ? 😅

[finite berry]

Sounds awesome 🔥 / dont think everyone else would agree with me though😅

[subtle anchor]

I'd do Hybrid defense

I'd like to not need 3+ buffs to stop a BeoH from t1 blasting me for 90k no matter what I do xP

[austere shuttle]

Demigod (Ursa) : when not using a shield, your defense increase your resistance, and your resistance increase your defense.
You become stronger when your mana (or hp) decreases in battle

(sorry, I just keep sharing what I have in mind even if not ideal in hope for someone to find a good idea/balance)

[subtle anchor]

Hmmm - thinking on it more, I do think that having 3-4 slots of being able to increase both res and Def might actually make hybrid defense impossible to balance unless it had a significantly lower rate than hybrid offense

[austere shuttle]

Agree

[finite berry]

Just make it like 20%-25%. Its like starting fight with barrier I on. Problem is doesnt apply to all playstyles. Swashes wont like it. Hence why i veto the idea

[austere shuttle]

On the other hand, if there s no hybrid defense addorns/amity added, it could just be a small % of each stat going into the other. But I totally agree that it's most likely hard to balance

[finite berry]

I still dont see how 'no offhand item/shield = increase stats x%' is restrictive in any way honestly.

[austere shuttle]

On my side :
It's hard to find something flat and well balanced
It's hard to find something scaling that is not mana/HP related

[finite berry]

Reverse redline no defenses

[austere shuttle]

Demigod (Ursa) : when not using a shield, your defense increase your resistance, and your resistance increase your defense, and your attack and dex are higher when your HP are higher 😅 ?

I m so sorry Odie

What about purpleline ?
Just kidding

[subtle anchor]

I hope Odie isn't feeling like this scene... 😅

[austere shuttle]

The best thing about deity rework is this channel, I had some good laugh tonight 😁

[pure cove]

Reverse Redline Offensive only or Purpleline
Tuned and fixed Apex rates.
Ship it.

I genuinely feel this has been extremely overthought at this point and there is too much theorycrafting and its not remaining realistic. Consider EVERYTHING and not just your personal desires. These classes are good and fun with solid changes that are unique and arguably more then anyother class has seen or more then Hera is liable to see.

FOR THE RECORD since there is a lot of emotion in here at times. Yes, I do believe Ursa could use a more unique or fun concept behind it but there has been an exorbitant amount of ideas at this point and I think its safe to say that if Odie wishes to, between our ideas and his own, he could have tested or figured something out by now. If NF wishes to move on and not delay this any further then I dont see any large reason as to why to delay it(besides Apex rates needing addressed to some degree and description fix on Manylus to include skills, both minor things). I think it has been made very well known that people would like something different so if thats to come we should wait and see what that may be.

[austere shuttle]

Agree !

Recent changes are great and there is some hype again about the deity rework and I m really happy with what will come next. Was really nice to be able to talk here and it's so great to be able to talk about in game changes, so thank you Odie and NF, this game was, is and will always be a true jewel !

[subtle anchor]

It's one of those where I think now is the chance for people to really talk about it but yeah I think it's been heard.

I still like things as they are sans Apex rates fixed and Manyalus stuff (duration) clarified.

I have no issue and waiting to see what does or does not come at this point.

Anyone got anymore beta stuff they want to see tested for numbers sake?

[teal girder]

Looks amazing, will give it a try tomorrow, only gripe for me now is the charge caps

[finite berry]

Its always good discussion. I also have no issue waiting, no rush for me. Lets just get it right ! If it ends up purple/red so be it. An apex ability could make that more bearable

[finite berry]

After all of that discussion, I still stand by reverse redline offenses only being the best /most fun / most implementable idea so far

[limber lily]

But again, most classes has 2 things. Main stat passive and secondary filling one. Hercules main passive is Bastille, shield bonus is secondary.
Same for hereitc....or ...any other class. Deity kind of has now more stuff than others. Main stat passive. Secondary passive - temp buffs and their duration. And third thing - apex. 👀

GUrsa for example has low primary passive, but boosted stats with secondary passive for 2h and lowered ward on top of that. Making him usable, but not OP.

BeoH being 2nd example. Having even more stronger secondary passive and no real downside, making this class too OP.

I don't want to follow n.2. And I don't want to make "all stat passive" turn into secondary boost (=no shield boosting only dmg, cuz boosting all stats would be crazy strong )

[coral rock]

Rethinking this idea #1219675348434812998 message and i still like it the most.
I had the concern to strong in towers. If we don't gain stats when we start with temp buffs this problem would be gone.
And maybe better balance would be 15% maxed at 75% (or 10% maxed at 80%? Or whatever rate feels good and isn't overpowered)
My finial idea for other stat passive instead of purplelining.

Demigod (Ursa)
You get more powerful as temporary buffs are applied in battle.

Other ideas and concerns of me and the community.

Let purpleline HP scaling start at 80% HP. 1% stats every 1% HP seems fair enough.

Let us buy all t8/9 God's without faction change or give all elemental Apex skills to every t8/9 God. It's not that we don't want to give NF mony, it's more about locking important skills behind a pay wall gives a bit of an bland taste.

Apex charge rates feel a bit to slow and same fast for all 3 Deities. Many people are not upset if they charge same fast for all 3, but a rate should be picked that feels good and is healthy for the game. (Maybe we get adorments in the future and they fix the problem?)

Manyalus can't get extended with status duration.(?)

People want a fun passive that isn't OP in any way.
IMO: fun is different for everyone and so difficult to agree on something.

The last update added so much to the class and a lot of people love it, me including. This is the point where I stop lobbying for PotG3 😜, because it makes no sense anymore to give more strenght to tower gameplay.
If it gets shipped as it is I am pleased. There are only some number tweaks and maybe Dursa's stat passive, but after the last changes I will be less upset if it stays.

Thank you for this awesome class

[slow mantle]

Does anyone know how to get the mirror to work on Beta?

I've gotten to the point where I can't really test any further than I have with the basic gear/spells I have on the beta.

[pallid stump]

there's no mirror in beta outside of a select few people like ORN I guess (maybe patreon ?)

[slow mantle]

Thanks!

Also, I've noticed that Deity Ara can't use Valhallen/Summoner gear on Live, but I am able to on the Beta. Is that a new buff? Or a bug on live?

[indigo elk]

new feature

[thorn yacht]

Apex in towers was probably the last change that i mightve asked for. Ironically lost a tower to elemental weakness on live the same day this change was made

I think these last changes cover pretty much everything i could want, personally; as far as addressing certain content goes

Ara being the only class with a genuine xline was already acceptable to me, and the other 2 builds having some form of redline was already just icing on the cake when i use the class for buff procs personally. So no opinion on the redline, seeing as high tenacity in some form doesnt seem to be an option outside of second chance

The only thing i might say remains is ang50 wf options are still pretty nonexistent, though ive never really tried

@coral rock i think keeping aoes behind a paywall for the completionists is fair, though a bit jank. Maybe bundle them in the purchasable class area for someone not trying to leave their kd

[slow mantle]

Okay, so I've done all the testing I can do, and here are my conclusions.

Fucking fun. This class is just fun to play. Even in content it's not the best for, I'm still using it.

The core gameplay is all about quickly stacking temporary buffs via passives and doing burst damage. Apex so far does a good job of assisting this, and adds a ton of fun, bursty damage/defense.

Honestly, the stat buff system in the Beta is where I think we need to be. The class would probably be too strong if it had a better stat passive than purpleline/Apex cast buff.

Allowing us to purchase all the God classes without having to change factions would be highly preferable because I'm very attached to my kingdom, and leaving it (even temporarily) would feel like a betrayal.

Ship it! 🛳️

[craggy creek]

I agree. Maybe at like lvl240 or something base deity could unlock all of the t8 and t9 apex skills? This would allow everyone to get different element AoE and I think it would be pretty cool.

[slow mantle]

I think I'd prefer an in-shop option. Buying the faction specific spells/classes instead of buying faction changes.

NF does a spectacular job of keeping the game P2W free, and I wouldn't want to make a suggestion that ultimately reduces their overall revenue. Especially after they've put so much effort into this Rework.

Unless, perhaps, my concept of how many people will pay for the faction changes to get all the spells is far less than I think it is.

[pallid stump]

but why should deities pay real money to have access to those spells ? Makes no sense.

[limber lily]

Just make them non-elemental. 👀

[zealous osprey]

Or Just make the spell use the 4 basic element ... Like Ultima with Just these 4

[pure cove]

Give it with Deity at Level milestones or make them Arcanist spells.

[austere shuttle]

It would be great but it's maybe asking a little too much 😋 having the downside of those AOE being elemental seems fair IMO

[lofty frost]

you don't even buy them for the skills since they become irrelevant after unlocking dursa/dara, you buy them for the debuffs

[austere shuttle]

You're right about the debuffs thing Indeed ! (About the skill it will be helpfull for Dara to benefit from passive stat boost without "losing" a turn thanks to the AOE)

[coral rock]

You can also use them with Dursa in towers. You can 1shot all the trash mobs without losing a turn .

[pallid stump]

Another solution could be to make them deal damage like Ultima (as in you can't be immune or resistant to it, but without the weakness buff of ultima). This way it's not elementless, you don't have to pay for all the spells, and you can waste you apex in immune mobs.

[coral rock]

Isn't that basically elementless? XD

[limber lily]

#1219675348434812998 message

That's like TS3 or how many other spells working. 😅

[pallid stump]

not really because you get more damage if the enemy is weak to your element + you get your faction element buff + most importantly it stays in the element fantasy of the T9 class, just a bit more "ultimate spell"

[coral rock]

Didn't you write "without the weakness buff of ultima"?
You are right with elemental buffs.
But I think this goes to far and would create an overpowered skill.

Edit: I think got it now

[pallid stump]

I was talking about the fact that ultima weakness multiplier is higher than every other spells
it can even be a weaker weakness multiplier if it's too strong, the important part is to keep it your element but usable everywhere

[austere shuttle]

We have to think about how difficult those changes will be for Odie. Let's just make Ultima AoE, seems easier 👌
(Jokes aside, it's really nice to see that we all appreciate most of the changes made by NF with this rework. I m really hyped !)

[pallid stump]

1/ it's not ultima at all
2 probably easier to do than a completely now spell. Harder than changing a spell to elementless (but that solution may not fit with T9 gods).

[austere shuttle]

(I was just joking I don't disagree with it 👌🙂)

[lofty frost]

no because you can still use element boosters

[craggy creek]

So make it impossible to be immune/resist to, but still give the faction DMG boost, and if they are weak to it, it has the base weak multiplier ( like if you hit something weak to water with ice strikes for example)? But I think if it was like that, the weakness multiplier would need to be less than what we already get from normal skills and spells. But I like this idea.

[coral rock]

Tbh I think that's too OP
Why not put the faction change item into Guild Shops? It's the same with HoC. I would still buy it with real money because it's dirt cheap, but no one can say it's p2w anymore 🤷‍♂️

[pallid stump]

how is it op ? it's split damage, and most importantly, it's an apex skill you can use once every 6 turns.

[coral rock]

It's split dmg?

[pallid stump]

seeing how small the damage is, it should be yes but maybe need to try it again

[coral rock]

It doesn't split for me 🤷‍♂️
24k with my poor beta gear and t.atk++ in a dungeon
I just don't want to get something too good just to get it nerfed 1 week later

[mystic basin]

This might be a stretch, but what about a T9 celestial that has all the 4 elements?
Gods are the only ones without celestial at T9

[pallid stump]

indeed it doesn't split, got baiting by testing on normal deity and ursa at the same time. but still don't think it'll be too strong.

[limber lily]

Yea, and regular T9 Gods won't have apex aoe. Sounds right to me.

[coral rock]

Might be the coolest idea, but sounds like a lot of work for NF. 😅

[mystic basin]

They can add it later tbh, alongside a especialization focused on Apex (like Valhallans and Summoners have their especializations). Don't mind me and my wishful thinking x)

[finite berry]

I actually love this idea. Towers are kinda tough for t9, but a celestial there with all 4 element AoEs has my full support

[torpid burrow]

I would absolutely pay to get all classes and elemental spells.

[autumn nova]

Well there's ppl who did that for the Gaia rot skill

[shrewd cedar]

There's ppl who have all Gods and Greater Gods

[torpid burrow]

I agree to this. Make the Apex impossible to be immune or resist. It solves everything.

[autumn nova]

So Ultima behind apex?

[torpid burrow]

Ultima has universal weakness and higher damage multiplier. Also, it's our signature spell, so why not?

[thorn yacht]

I dont the aoe is intended to be usefully strong, but rather literally exist. I dont get the issue, its way stronger than i thought they would've gave already. The elemental constraint is not new to the game

[strong oriole]

I just had a very controversial idea:
Make ultima/ultimastrikes locked to apex (essentially locking it to deity) which would mean: rs uses rend daggers heretic uses fey unstable gilga uses SS beo with spiritdog and deity with ultima — build diversity!

Would prob mean ultima/US may need a slight nerf to match power of other skills but thats now doable bc not everyone uses ultima anymore.

Sincerely, an rs main with no interest in deity

[untold blade]

Ahah. No. You'll not have rend spells only for you to play with, nice try

[strong oriole]

Not locking rend to rs only ultima to deity

Ultima feels like a deity skill to me idk why

[untold blade]

The game aint ready for locking ultima to one classe, there are no alternatives

[strong oriole]

And it feels like the kinda spell a “limit break” system should allow, not spammable every turn

[fringe steppe]

So RS would be forced to play BoF while deity can use any spec?

[finite berry]

Dont worry wont happen😅

[strong oriole]

True true.
Lmao I know how controversial (and prob dumb) locking ultima is. It’s just that ultima feels like it’s meant for apex.

I apologize everyone for the controversy.

[thorn yacht]

If there was botha "fill apex bar the first time u reach 1 hp per battle" effect, and a distinction of aras 2000 seal skill and reducing its cost to 0. It would compliment second chance in all content, but more importantly let me run around with 1 hp and 1 mp and ang wf with full apex every fight

Or proc all buffs the first time u reach 1 hp

Rn i can do maybe 30k in farming gear and no buffs if i crit at AL29 and mostly full xline buffs. Some effect that gave either all buff procs or full apex at 1 hp would have intersection with most content and also address ang wf. Imo

[torpid burrow]

This is literally what the devs don't want people to do.

[thorn yacht]

Theyve said that?

[torpid burrow]

They don't want any turn 0 stuff.

[untold blade]

Shiiip iiittt

[mystic basin]

Man i'm so hyped for this lol 🙈

[mellow sky]

Man, I really wish for some form of weaved elements for diety

[cyan mason]

🤮 kings/queens don't need weaved elements

[pallid stump]

we ain't weaving, we blow all the load at once (aka ultima)

[lofty frost]

that's what she said

[cyan mason]

Plz 🚢?

[untold blade]

Please dont tell me we'll have to wait until ornaversary

[hollow reef]

Still need to wrap up https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1219672026160042118

[soft steeple]

Sorry for holdin y'all up 🫂

[pallid stump]

tbf, gsh wasn't even a class so we can wait

[coral rock]

So Deity is considered finished or can we expect any changes?
(*Apex charge rate
*Demigod Ursa passive
*Manyalus not extendable with status duration)

[hollow reef]

Apparently it was! 🙂

[pallid stump]

from what I quickly tested in beta, it looks much more unique and the stat passive makes more sense. and considering we can see more summon spells and summon pet in the future, it looks far better now (at least on a gameplay point of view). Is it the new official keith ? or reverse keith thiek ?

[hollow reef]

“Kyle”

[pure cove]

total side note if this matters. maybe Apex should carry in world aswell? For endgame this really wouldnt change much of anything. Occaisonal 1 Turn DC for raids(which is already the current meta for mage raiding) but could be a fun assist and gameplay change for lower levels. The same way RS, Beo, Hera can prep themselves or play off their passives early. Sure Deity also has line but doesnt have: Safety of Beo, Ease of Hera, MF RNG of RS. So if ur 1HP youll just die reasonably or blue line on base and only get a fraction of the bonus of other classes. Also this would only be available every couple of battles and not every battle. This would allow lower level players to better tackle things like zerks in world. Building on normal mobs and using Apex for the occasional zerk battle.

Not a big change and almost entirely something for low level Deities/Lower Gods since many players who are more invested enjoy the idea of prepping for world raids and also with new events world farming has some prevalence again too.

[torpid burrow]

Was the M1 and M2 for 2000 Seals revealed or calculated?

I did a rough calculation of M1 being 1.2 and M2 being 0.7~1.3 . Does it sound correct?

[opaque chasm]

Those numbers match the power of the spell. So if you verified that M1 is close to 1.2, then yes, that sounds correct.

[proper briar]

Deity Rework Opinion Collection

While the Deity community is happy with how the rework has turned out overall, there are still some lingering concerns that people would like addressed or acknowledged prior to release:

1. Deity Ursa's ability description still states "Your Apex meter charges much, much faster", however in testing across content this does not appear to currently be the case. All versions of Deity appear to charge at roughly the same rate. It's thought this could be due to the way the cap is currently set up. [Mentioned various times in this thread, can't find a good specific message to link]

2. Manyalus is almost definitely not currently effected by positive status duration boosters. In my own testing both with and without a 50% positive status duration amity Manyalus lasted an average of 2.1 turns.

• If this is intentional that's fine, but the studio has said that it shouldn't function differently than other statuses. It currently does function differently though, unless Manyalus shouldn't count as 'positive'.

3. Some players would like Apex to carry over fight to fight in the world like it does in Towers. This change is mildly interesting for Orna but very relevant for Hero of Aethric, where world farming is a more viable and popular strategy. #1219675348434812998 message (Shoutout @coral rock for being the HoA rep here)

• @coral rock 's thoughts on the subject (Orna Legends): #811254836208074752 message

4. The [Element] Eventualus skills from T8/T9 god classes are meant to be usable on T10 deity, however you are unable to unlock other elements than your faction element without spending money on changing factions.

• This would make this the only relevant paywalled content in Orna, alongside a faction change being inconvenient or impossible for some players depending on their kingdom situation, as Monarchs can't change factions.
• Suggestions for resolving this include a multi-element T9 celestial class that unlocks them all, unlocking them all on Deity or one of it's celestials, or granting Deity or a Deity celestial "3" versions of the skills instead of the "2" versions on the T9 classes.

5. Some players are not satisfied with Deity Ursa's red/purpleline passive, however this topic is more divisive. Other players are fine with the current iteration of Ursa but would also be open to an improvement.

• I'm aware this topic has been beaten into the ground, but enough people wanted me to mentioned it that I had to add it here. Sorry Odie ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[quick drum]

Change Manyalus into Target +1/+2 may be much easy to balance

[torpid burrow]

I think Manyalus may become redundant with the new AoE Apex skills.

[subtle anchor]

If we are talking currently on beta-

-Ara's passive is only charging to 100% (did I miss this being changed??)
-Buff duration gear seems much less effective than live which may be contributing to Manyalus duration

[torpid burrow]

I second the notion that duration is less effective on beta. May be an unintended effect of Staying Power.

[subtle anchor]

Yeah I'm assuming it is a bug. Ara's passive and Ursa's Charge rate or normalizing rates I'd like some clarity on though I'm guessing we will get those via live. Eventually 😛

[opaque chasm]

I'm hoping it's a bug fix. Amity says it increases duration by 50% but actually increases by 100%.

[pallid stump]

I didn't saw anything about this change too. Is it ninja nerf ? I don't see why. 120% was fine for how long it taks to charge.

it's now 20%/100%, still 6 turns to charge 1 level so 30 turns to get a 100% stat buff... meh

[sudden hazel]

Considering only useful way of it is Endless dungeons, this change was unnecessary.

[torpid burrow]

I still want my 150%.

[hollow reef]

it's only a display change

100% still means 120% stats

[pallid stump]

but it's still 20% per apex use (so 5 apex spells to be at 100%, meaning you buffed it to 24% stats per apex use ? seems odd. Or the number is locked at 100% but subsequent apex still make you go to 120% while the display don't change ?

[proper briar]

The later would be consistent with how Realm Dorado's Resurgence II works in the beta last I tested it

[hollow reef]

yup, should be consistent will other chargeables

[proper briar]

It's a bit odd/unintuitive to have the scaling continue beyond 100% when the display does not continue beyond 100%

[pallid stump]

this is very un intuitive. Is it considered a display bug which could be solved in future or is it a feature we'll have to keep in mind ?

[hollow reef]

I'm not sure i agree - display is showing the charge % - there is no reason charge % needs to be 1:1 with the value given

for example: does 100% Sorrow charge need to deal 100 damage?

[pallid stump]

it's not
ara is going 20% by 20%.

This mean either the passive is charging 24% stats or the display don't work or the limit is now 100% instead of 120%

[lost orchid]

This feels like a bad comparison

It would be a massive QoL, and a huge knowledge improvement for new players if the % was the actual bonus, not a % of charge

[proper briar]

If you look at the latest post of #1097574048294260878 , it's not state of charge. Resurgence II says "100%" at ~9% of your HP (when it is giving a 100% boost, but is only ~80% charged)

From descriptions, that's the way Ara's passive display is functioning as well. Showing "100%" when it's giving a 100% boost, but being only at 80% state of charge. (note: not my testing, cannot verify this)

[pallid stump]

the strange thing is that is was displaying 120% previously

[coral rock]

My blueline is nearly 100% charged but only shows 47%

[hollow reef]

yes, 20% of your charge will equate to 24% of the stat bonus

[hollow reef]

likely rounding issue in the display

[pallid stump]

I don't understand it at all. Previously we had a display going 20 by 20 up to 120% (confimed to the total stat cap).
Now we have something going 20 by 20 up to 100% but you said you didn't change the charge speed but only the display.

Somehting doesn't work here

[proper briar]

Err, 9**%** hitpoints, not 9 hitpoints, if that's what you thought I meant 😅

A 20% discrepancy in player power between what's displayed and what is true seems rather large for a rounding issue. When the passive is actually only 80% online it's shows a 100% number.

And that is what is also happening on Deity Ara per reports, assuming it should still take 6 Apex skill uses to charge the ability.

[hollow reef]

it's just a meter. 0% means no bonus, 100% full effect. Ara's was behaving like an outlier to the other passives, as others reported

[pallid stump]

so you confirm that each apex use give 24% stats and we only need 5 apex to be fully loaded ?
That sound fine to me (but I've to admit I prefer the previous display with the exact power of the passive since that would have been the only way to know the real value outside discord knowledge)

[hollow reef]

there was no change to the passive's effect. only the display in battle

[coral rock]

ok then, why cant i get my blueline on Ursa over 49%
#1219675348434812998 message

[pallid stump]

so previously when we charge from 100% to 120%, it was only a visual change in the meter with no actual stats behind

[hollow reef]

likely needs to be fixed on demigod as well

[prime mountain]

Gilga is also stuck at 50% on bastille. I feel like this is an unintuitive way of showing stat increase

[hollow reef]

likely needs to be fixed in a couple places 😅

[proper briar]

Is it supposed to take 5 or 6 uses of an apex skill to fully charge Deity Ara's passive ability? That's where this bug report stemmed from, since people were under the impression it was supposed to take 6.

[hollow reef]

6

there's definitely a rounding issue here (display only). will need to circle back

[proper briar]

Thank you

[thin surge]

is this stuff live yet?

[proper briar]

Depends if you mean live as in live, or live as in beta live. It's live, but it's not live live. It's on the private beta server, which is publicly available. Not to be confused with the live public beta, which would be on the live game, and is not where it is.

( aka: It's on the beta server. It's not in the main game.)

[thin surge]

Was talking about live live indeed. Thanks for the prompt response.

[pallid stump]

so 1 apex should be displaying ~17%
I definitely prefer the version were it show the actual buff.

[hollow reef]

egh, maybe i'll concede to that format if it's the popular opinion

[pallid stump]

version live :

• you know when you're 100% charged
  -- weird numbers
  -- don't really how much stats it represent

alternative version :

• you know the actual buff you have (and basically the max you can get by trial)
  -- you don't really know what is the max until you test, then you know

For me the alternative version is better but that could be subject to a vote because that's only the opinion of some of us.

PS : how do you make a minus dammit

[untold blade]

Cool. Now ship it

[hollow reef]

Biggest concern is likely players not understanding why they cannot get their passives to 100%

That appears broken imo

[pure cove]

I will add I prefer seeing the actual stat bonus. I think its more intuitive to see the skill saying you get a stat boost for x and then in game you see a % which is showing the stats you are getting

If we were to get the 0-100% charge scale I think the % stat boost should be explicitly stated in the passive. This way when it says 100% people know they are actually getting x%

[hollow reef]

Yeah, I’d rather show it elsewhere

[pure cove]

I think stating your max boost in passives is good all around and if its there then the charge % makes more sense. Having an unknow value and its just on a 0-100% would be confusing since you dont know what that % is even of. Knowing the number f.e. 120%, allows you to know when you see 50% in battle, that you are at 60% stats.

[hollow reef]

Agreed

You’ll see a bit more of that very soon

[proper briar]

I think it should be fairly intuitive for players to see "50%" and figure out they're getting a 50% bonus to their stats.

Likely more intuitive than a Gilga seeing 100% at full ward, a Realmshifter seeing 100% at 1hp, and then seeing a Deity with two 100%s and wondering what's going on. When the first is getting a hidden 50%, the second a hidden 100%, and the third a hidden 120%.

[hollow reef]

For now, showing a 0-100% charge indicator would be consistent with charged passives (PoTG, Dragon Slayer, etc), so it is the more familiar experience to players

[hollow reef]

I’d only agree if it read “Icon: +50% stats” explicitly

“Icon: 50%” is a measurement to me

[fringe roost]

Odie casually dropping stat nerd hype under the radar

[proper briar]

PoTG, Dragon Slayer, etc do have their own problems with being unintuitive and not indicating how much they're overcharged tbf.

Is it out of scope/too clunky to add "All" or "Dmg" to the indicators, like the Berserks?

I think showing 100% for a full passive works and makes sense too, I'm just personally more of a fan of the visible number representing the bonus. Thanks for discussing this

[pure cove]

The charge skills are exactly what I was thinking of with the charge of 0-100%. I think from an endgame perspective its odd or confusing but I feel coming up in the game its make a lot of sense and feel natural.

I was actually going to mention it as opposition or as an aside to using stat% in game but figured its actually a decent argument for having all of them being a charge %.

I also feel this scales within the game itself. Any mechanic in the future can easily be represented on a 0-100 slider no matter how funky or complex the mechanic itself could be.

[hollow reef]

imo, the solution to them is the same: show the stat bonus in the description / parallel to charge %

Applying a 50% charge indicator to a known 20% stat bonus should be easy enough for folk who prioritize that

Otherwise us simpletons just know if it’s as big as it’s going to get

[pallid stump]

we could argue that's it's the same if you display max value in description + actual value in combat.
Both make you do math, one is more clear about how much of the passive you currently have and the other the actual % (but with the max in description you know your target)

[pure cove]

For casuals who couldnt care about optimization it works to allow them a visual to something they probably barely understood in the first place. And to those more number inclined its as simple as knowing your kit and then seeing the 0-100%.

[pallid stump]

After further testings, can confirm that current display vs actual buff is

20 / 40 / 60 / 80 / 100 /100
20 / 40 / 60 / 80 / 100 /120

So even if the display don't change at you last apex, you DO GET the stat buff.

I'll make a bold guess. Odie added a min(value, 1) to avoid weird rounded display like 101% so our display at 6 charges is like min(1.2, 1) = 1 -> 100%

[pure cove]

so it should just be giving like ~16.66% per cast

[pallid stump]

it should be DISPLAYING ~17% per stack yes, but the stat buff is actually 20%

[pallid stump]

just tried a tower as Ara, you don't get the free 50% apex except for the first fight.
IDK if it's a good or a bad thing, but would've been nice for Ara to have the best between current apex or 50% at the start of a tower fight.

every update we get a new display value

can confirm it's only visual past the 120% mark

[sudden hazel]

Yea it's only visual

[untold blade]

Manyalus reduce the damages of the following spells?

[pallid stump]

yes

[untold blade]

Ok

Really usefull spell

[pallid stump]

not really, it lasts for a very short time.

[sudden hazel]

Wish it was not a temporary effect but a permanent effect. In exchange greater damage reduction.

[untold blade]

I agree, it was sarcarsm.

[teal girder]

I am markedly less hyped for this rework now 😦 I'm not sure how to constructively convey this, but everything just feels kind of.. meh? Like everything exciting/fun has been whittled down and down. I get that balance is important but would've been nice to test a bit more in a live environment before gutting.

[pallid stump]

honestly, yes. It's a bit disapointing. The gameplay don't change much. Biggest change is dara stat passive in endless. Apex is negligible once you obtain ultima. All apex damage skills are useless on dursa so for dursa the biggest change is free channelalus once every 5 turns (and some more chance to tbuff in horde dungeons).
it's nothing close to the likes of avidity, collateral and bestial bond.

[sudden hazel]

Don't forget the potential no-weakness feature. Raids like Arisen Morrigan will be a breeze. 🙂

[pallid stump]

idk, the more you progress through the game, the more it becomes useless (even vs amorri). I mean, I can kill her in 1 go with dara, mostly legendary DF gear and only 34 AL. It's not like you need to be hyperendgame to kill here. The real danger is great plague which is elementless.

[prime mountain]

Should still be good for anguished amorri raiding then

Also don't forget about stat buffs, non spec aoe spells and vallhalan/summoner gear celestial lute.

But i get the sentiment, had a similar feeling when CD was close to release, but then odie hit us with the adorns/weapons😅

[pallid stump]

Ah yes, I forgot about lute, which is nice for dungeons but I still use base in dungeons because I can get GM from pet and DC from passive.
the non spec AOE is negligible because you can't build around 1 elemental AOE once every 6 turns.
And for the gear, like I said before we can only judge with what we have. Gear was during the same beta, but we've no idea what those supposed apex gear will look like and what they'll do if they ever arrive in the game.

[teal girder]

At this point just give us 25% avidity 25% CD, 25% bestial bond and give up haha

[limber lily]

On the other hand, I'm excited about it and can't wait till it hit live so I can HoC back to Deity. 👀 👌

I'm on the Yoshi sentiment here. Gear was during beta. But the gear itself was crappy (random axes usually) and nobody used it much. 🤷‍♂️

Also hope that the patch will hit together with temp buffs reduction/correction so Deity will lead in this by big margin. Bye bye other ppl DC and lugus.

[teal girder]

This would be cool 🙂 would make sense that we are best at using DC

[opaque chasm]

I'm also still optimistic. But I think Knight's points here still need to be addressed #1219675348434812998 message

[pallid stump]

The axe was bad, but it was showing what to expect. For apex, we don't know if it's apex rate, apex cap, apex damage...
What I don't like is not the power (deity will still be good) but the gameplay, apex will be marginally used in the end. It's not bending your gameplay as much as the other identity passives.

[mystic basin]

I'm honestly excited, can't wait for the 21st 🙈
Im hopefull that with future gear, we might get interesting interactions with Apex

[autumn nova]

So the buff duration will be significantly lower than live?

[proper briar]

Tl;dr

• Yes

But less so for Deity because Deity now has inbuilt +40% status duration

[teal girder]

21st is confirmed for the maiden voyage? 🚢

[hollow reef]

What would this refer to? the deity changes have been frozen for a couple weeks now

[teal girder]

I guess learning that the status duration frommstaying power doesn't seem to affect a huge amount, especially with the duration nerf/rebalance, even if it's less obvious for deities BECAUSE of staying power. Also the apex taking a good while to charge, the abilities that were "powerful" all becoming kind of meh (manyalus etc), people with more knowledge and insight than me seem to be implying apex is going to be less useful for t11+ people, of which I'm a part. I Love The ideas in general, I guess it's the numbers that have made it a bit like, well I guess I'll stick to spamming ultimastrikes like every other class seems to do. Edit: And sorry, it was from me reading the more recent discussions, been crazy busy with PhD recently

[hollow reef]

I think my point is: everything in this message has been the case for weeks - if not longer. Why does it feel any different now?

[teal girder]

I just hadn't posted yet? Apologies. Edit: ie Ive only just posted my thoughts after musing it over from discussion etc. I know it hasn't changed for a couple weeks, but I'm not here every day posting unfortunately

[opaque chasm]

The change to how buff duration boosters work was only discovered recently. It's arguably a significant and unexpected nerf to Deity. Some people feel dejected by it.

Personally I think it's a good change.

[woven kayak]

Isn't it an adjustment to all classes, not a nerf to deity specifically?

[teal girder]

I wasn't trying to start anything anyway 😦 was just posting how I felt. I'm still excited for the changes just not AS excited. Didn't mean to cause issue, just haven't had a massive opportunity to weigh In much

[hollow reef]

the beta server does include a bug fix for the status boosting amity, yes. However, that fix has existed for the duration of this beta, and Staying Power negates the bug fix completely

[proper briar]

It's similar to the summoner change in that it was in the game for weeks but nobody had gone around checking to see if buff duration boosters still worked as expected.

[opaque chasm]

Deity relies more on temp buffs than other classes. But we also have Staying Power. So it's not obvious whether Deity is affected more or less by it than other classes.

[woven kayak]

Since deity has staying power, it should hit deity less than other classes imo😅

[proper briar]

Given that there aren't that many people that even know how status boosters previously worked or have 50% duration amities in the beta, I'm not at all surprised it went unrealized.

I am also on board with the duration buff bugfix, but I get why people feel a little dejected when they learn about a "nerf" that wasn't announced and was only realized a couple days ago.

[teal girder]

I just want to make it clear I don't have an issue, I just wanted to try and convey feelings which are purely subjective. Feel like I've caused an issue. Sorry @hollow reef

[hollow reef]

when the patch notes for this one are finally complete, better conversations can be had, for sure

[hollow reef]

No issue - sorry if this felt like conflict. it's just my job to ask questions and get to the bottom of things. apologies as well

[coral rock]

If the bug fix of the positive duration had been mentioned straight away and it was said that we would get staying power as compensation in order to stand out more from other classes, we would probably have been more happy.
Finding out such a big change probably made us (myself included) overreact a bit.
I am very happy with the rework and understand the bug fix for the positive duration!
Nevertheless, this should not be forgotten -> #1219675348434812998 message

[hollow reef]

1. Deity Ursa does charge faster. I imagine everyone here is hitting apex turn cap, thus it may not feel faster

2. Manyalus is neither buff, nor debuff. It cannot be boosted

3. I can consider, but this does not seem extremely useful to me atm

4. Will ponder

5. No further comment 😛

[coral rock]

1. can't get Ursa a bit higher turn cap than others then?

2. thanks for clarification

3. in HoA we suffer a lot from Deitys bad world farming ability.
   Would be only a little boost but better than nothing.

4. 😀

5. totally fair 😂

[teal girder]

If most deity players are going to cap the apex and not be any faster than Dara, seems a bit strange, feels like less of a desperation between the two. I might be misunderstanding or not thinking fully tho

[subtle anchor]

Most of us that were testing didn’t have mirrors/buff duration gear to test so I think that contributed to not talking about it

I have a question- does Buff Duration extension have a cap where it isn’t effective anymore?

I’m getting similar turn averages (on beta) for 2x 50% Amities on Heretic vs 2x 50% Amities, 10 Mortars, and Staying Power on Deity

Or alternatively is there a chance that Staying Power’s Debuff fall off is somehow affecting/contradicting the positive buffs as well?

I am a little disappointed at the change but I agree with Knight and Bleevoe that this is a good change for the game

[hollow reef]

no cap. what status are you obvserving?

[subtle anchor]

Deific Channel

[hollow reef]

My mistake - we did add a cap in 2022 when 100% uptime was possible

So, you'd be hitting cap in both environments and therefore will see the same results

[opaque chasm]

Since 100% uptime is no longer possible, maybe remove cap?

[hollow reef]

the cap is what makes 100% uptime not possible

[opaque chasm]

Hmm, then we have not understood how this works. Our understanding is that it's no longer possible to get 100% uptime no matter how much you boost even if there was no cap...

[hollow reef]

if there was no cap, you'd cetainly be able to get 100% uptime. Two +50% boosters would give +100%

[opaque chasm]

+100% = double duration. Not infinite duration.

[hollow reef]

negative - that would be the case if fade turns were a static number

[opaque chasm]

Or, well, we'd expect to see 150%*150% = 225% duration.

[hollow reef]

Read it as "There is a 100% chance that this effect won't fade on a turn"

[opaque chasm]

That's kind of what we're currently seeing on live. It's not at all what we're seeing on beta. But we haven't tested very much on beta yet, so we're still kind of guessing...

[subtle anchor]

Based on that is it safe to assume that if what we are currently seeing (2 amities being the same as 2 amities + 10 Mortars + staying power on beta) is accurate then it is either atrocious bad luck on one and phenomenal good luck on the other or it is a bug/intended outcome somewhere?

[coral rock]

#1219675348434812998 message

[subtle anchor]

Or if it's the cap then the cap might be overfunctioning and/or once again the bad/good luck moment?

[autumn nova]

Another interesting thing to know might be if there's a hard cap or a soft cap with diminishing returns.

if there's a hard cap then maybe all those buff length stuff might even be redundant

[opaque chasm]

Can you please clarify what this means? The fade chance of T. Atthas been estimated to 50% with no boosters. What will the fade chance be with a single +50% duration amity?

I interpret your message as saying the fade chance would be halved, so 25%.

But in beta we're finding it to be 33%. Meaning the duration has been extended by 50% from 2 turns to 3.

[subtle anchor]

That also matches DC with a 50% from 4 to about 6 (so far).

[pallid stump]

It would be nice to have informations about this hidden cap so we don't build duration for nothing. And honestly, would be nice for any such thing (we do know about luck cap which is similar but at this point there my be even more we don't know).

[hollow reef]

The new codex might be a great place for such values

[pallid stump]

True. A more complete page with buffs (currently only bloodshift and Sekhmet) with the fade chance, plus a page to explain buff duration, debuff fade and assassin (annwn subterfuge) including stacking method (additive or multiplicative) and cap.

[teal girder]

you should call the new codex page "maths"

[mellow sky]

Manyalus as a stance

[limber lily]

I don't think so. At first it was:
#1219675348434812998 message

Then Odie agreed it is not suited for release.

And recently it was "taken out" of buff family, so it can't be prolonged, which seems like the correct adjustment to the power it provides.

[pallid stump]

It provides barely anything.
You can't use 2 turns out of 5 as a reliable AOE.
The damage is largely reduced.

It'll be useless as it is, you're better using sweep + channelalus by far.

It would have been usefull if you could use it permanently, if the damage wasn't reduced or if it provided perfect accuracy. But the current version is poopoo.

[void inlet]

the damage reduction is too large

large enough to force players to just use sweep

[limber lily]

Didn't try it myself for long time. How much is dmg reduced? Didn't notice any log about that, so I just thought Odie cut down turns rather than dmg (so you can use it as short time boost)...

[coral rock]

It's barely useful.
Also feels like apex gain is reduced when "target all" is on.
Or it is because the dmg is to low 🤷‍♂️

[mystic basin]

If Manyalus will only last 1 turn, at least make it worth it. I would suggest removing the damage reduction at least

[limber lily]

Yea, at least I thought the dmg is still same and you can use it against some hard floors or summoner raids...😅

[sudden hazel]

Agree on that. I don't think it would be fair for other classes, other than gilga, if it were to be a permanent buff.

[pure cove]

Manylus ideally imo should be something where if you have an optimized build you could get near 100% uptime using some Buff Dur+ gear/amity with the damage reduction for off targets. this would allow all players to get use out of it. No Dur+ and hust give free AoE for a bit then back to single target. Build dur+ and focus on making an AoE build. If any person thinks this is overperforming for endgame you dont know endgame.

I think making it something that requires a heavy investment in gear and ALs and still it wouldnt be 100% uptime but near it means you have a large requirement to try and make it like an AoE Anguish option. Need survivability for start buffs and for the 1 or 2 Manylus down turns. Need T. duration from somewhere to get that near max uptime, Need damage to actually make the AoE worth it. This is a way bigger requirement then RS D or Gilgs Ang50 horde and would still be a worse option imo. Although in the AL 150+ range with like perfect gear itd be great but thats every class at that lol.

and honestly a less nerfed version may something realistic or useful for Ang 2.0. As is though if you arent nearing 100% I think I strugglee to see a super viable option for it.

[sudden hazel]

Think it would be pretty viable with double positive status duration amities and the ncoming Deity passive without investing into other gear. Not sure if it counts as a positive status, tho.

[pallid stump]

it's already been tested on beta with 2 50% amities and it's almost everytime 2 turns (maybe 3 sometimes)

[soft steeple]

Odie has stated it does not work with status amities nor passives.

[pure cove]

as is Manylus is liable to be pretty much useless. At this point with its current state I say just remove damage reduction entirely. I read back and seeing Odie going the route of making it an outlier form effects it shouldnt come with a debuff.

Now it can just be an occaisonal strong AoE. If it doesnt get this or something akin to this power gain its pretty much guaranteed to be useless. Was about to say maybe you can use it from like L225-230 but its tied to Ara so it wont be useful at all.,

[sudden hazel]

Occasional strong AoE would be pretty useful against Eos ngl.

[pure cove]

Many other scenarios too. It wont serve as a CS replacer, a playstyle or anything broken, but having like 2-4 turns of a strong AoE is useful and not broken at all

[pallid stump]

And if we don't get power, at least let us cycle it

[pure cove]

I think its quite certain Odie doesnt want that so I think just making it like 80-100% strength on all enemies is the best route to go to give it genuine viability. Really dont want a world where it just becomes irrelevant. A second objective this could sort of accomplish is replacing the T9 AoEs. T9 AoEs would still serve a purpose and a big one being for lower levels but once oyu get towards endgame and pick up Ara, you can trade to an non element locked AoE

thus the, swap to other factions for different elements, issue is solved. none base elements issue is solved. manlus not being useless is solved. useful in nearly all content that has AoE. Horde play itll be good, events itll be good, Anguish itll be good, Towers itll be good, Raids with mobs it will be good etc etc

[sudden hazel]

I totally agree. In fact i never agreed to a statement this much before.

[gilded shadow]

Question: do we get a skill category for apex skills?

[pallid stump]

no

[gilded shadow]

Do we at least get a list for them? :(

[pallid stump]

there aren't much, best way to find them is to check the classes

[gilded shadow]

We have a skill category for omnimancy so i would suggest adding one for apex skills that only shows up when youre on a class with an apex meter.

[torpid burrow]

I agree. Manyalus was a nice idea, but it has now been nerfed so much that it's barely useful. In fact, the whole Apex system was nerfed so much that it's now barely useful, except for chanelalus on the celestials, and neutralus for early T10. I'd rather get the AoE Elemantal III Spells, as people suggested.

[sudden hazel]

I don't have any problem with other new features. Besides these features are not in fact intended to be buffs but a rework on classline's identity. I am happy with the current situation of this classline, aside for manyalus. I wouldn't care removing manyalus from the game entirely, in fact.

Some of y'all are becoming too greedy. Y'know who I'm talking about. 🙂

[subtle anchor]

I think saying Apex is nerfed into the ground is at least a bit of overstatement.
Channelalus should still be changed or removed IMO but is useful currently. On endless, if you don’t mind taking a turn to recast it, you can use it in place of a Phoenix.

Barrielus has uses for endless and PvP

Neutralus does decent damage and has high penetration

AoE apex help Ara do okay in horde content freeing it from being locked into pure long content

Apex meter full still shuts off weaknesses

————
I agree that I don’t think Manyalus will get much if any use in its current iteration or maybe some occasional moments against summoners in PvP if anything.

I agree that Apex feels a little lackluster with caps keeping it identical charging speeds between each version (could also be remedied by just saying the charge is equal for all, period- which would make the whole thing easier to balance).

But I’m more annoyed that the bugfixed way t.buff duration seems to be calculated, there’s no point in stacking it. I could be getting repeatedly bad results but buff duration builds already were few and far between and now just aren’t going to be able to be a thing.

The bug fix itself is fine in trying to make amities work as intended, but how it currently seems to be functioning paired with the cap means that 2 50% Amities is it.

Or 1 and just a couple Mortars if paired with Staying Power. It’s not a 50% nerf either as it’s currently nerfed the build by 75% as far as average turns with DC go. I.E there’s nothing you can do to make t.buffs a remotely reliable build- especially compared to every other build out there.

That coupled with Apex being a little lackluster is enough to let some of the air out of the tires for me.

[limber lily]

Idk, even without duration amity I have buffs almost all the time. Yes, they will be probably shorter, but they pop up more often. 🤷‍♂️ Just made this video, cuz I'm going to sleep, but had runs with much more stable temps.

[subtle anchor]

Yes, you can proc and reproc. That isn’t the build I’m talking about. And it doesn’t serve the same purpose or function the same way either.

There’s a big difference between bringing a Phoenix and pet act to get DC vs casting DC once, bringing another pet, and letting the buffs stay up until you have to cast it again.

To your point, I think Ursa is just fine great on horde with the proc and reproc you are showing 🙂 but again not the build or content I’m aiming for

[torpid burrow]

The way it is now, it is not an identity. CD is quite central to Gilga, and Avidity is awesome on RS. Apex is... meh. Most of the time, there is o reason to even cast it, as we have other better options already.

[limber lily]

Well, sorry that your hundreds of dc/t+++/t++ won't work anymore when we finally got those buffs. Not like there are that many content to use it...I know you had fun with it. 😁 But you have to admit it was kind of overline.

[torpid burrow]

Only once you are powerful enough. Early on, you need to squeeze in everything you can.

I, personally, think that Apex was nice on its first version, and it got worse with every change. It's now capped, lasting less, doing less damage. Chanelalus is a band-aid for a class design problem, and we still don't have a solution to being element locked. The best change was turning the element spells AoE.

[subtle anchor]

Requiring 2 Amities and 10 Adornments on a weapon is a pretty heavy investment for something that can’t amplify Ultima, or Crit, or Ward Based Damage.

But sure, like I’ve said, the fix is good for the game. It just should’ve halved the build’s use, not quartered it/basically removed it. Not to mention making Orichalcum Mortars virtually useless.

And paired with the other stuff, I’m feeling less excited than I’d like to be about the class rework.

[torpid burrow]

I wish Odie, instead of Chanelalus, would allow the celestials to keep triggered CD as base does, in exchange of being locked out of receiving Atk or Mag buffs.

[austere shuttle]

Playing on Tbuff is duable on live, it's fun and quite effective at some point, but is less effective than most other main builds on other classes. I expected the rework to help a little (not something too OP). It doesn't seem to be what will happen and I m quite concern about it if I understood correctly what @subtle anchor talked about

[coral rock]

I agree with you on everything except "Channelalus should still be changed or removed".
I feel a lot of negative energy towards this skill, but I think it fits the class and makes the Celestials even more interesting.

I was really hyped for the release. Now that we have learned that positive duration is nerfed into the ground, I am rather dejected.
If your tests are correct and don't just involve a lot of bad luck, it's really questionable how useful resources with positive durations will be in the future...

[limber lily]

@subtle anchor you kind of scared ppl here. 😅

Erdrick is full into infinite buff duration build. Not for your regular ordinary build ...

[subtle anchor]

I’m into as much consistency as I can get from a function that is otherwise governed by RNG (isn’t that why people do Collateral Damage, Pet Act, or Avidity Builds??) The average turn counts for a DC proc was around 31.75. It wasn’t infinite or close to, just more dependable. I looked forward to seeing what Staying Power would add and seeing if I could keep t.buffs up long enough to go between Apex casts on Ara to help re-proc stuff.

I agree with Bleevoe and Knight that Duration gear wasn’t intuitive and this is a good change overall to fix duration stuff to be accurate even if technically a nerf to live.

What I’m bothered by is that rather than halving the build’s effectiveness per making a 50% amity actually increase duration by 50% rather than 100% as it is on live currently, the change plus the cap has pretty much cut out the build.

I wouldn’t say duration is nerfed into the floor as a whole. You can still bring some to help out a little, but you definitely can’t go maxing it anymore.

And yeah, after several thousand turns against the cactus to try it all out, I admit I’m a little biased/invested 😅

[pallid stump]

Is it really greedy to ask for apex spells that are still useful after level 245 ?
Currently it's not the case beside channelalus for DUrsa (DAra already have access to 1 turn DC)
I'd say barrialus would have need fine with old tbuff duration but now the buff is so short it's arguably a bad turn investment to use it)
Manyalus is just useless
Damage spells are useless on DUrsa, and DAra will use it just to get the passive then it's just weaker than ultima
T9 AOE are OK (unless you're water and realize that half the tower is immune resistante to water)

Overall I don't see were I'll be using it so yeah, I will complain about it if the identity (or at least the most visible part of it) end up being useless in most content.

[torpid burrow]

How would you give 1 turn DC to DAra? Gods of Aaru?

[pallid stump]

yes

[torpid burrow]

Other than that, my argument is the same as yours. As far as "identity" goes, Apex is a very bad one since we don't have any reason to use it, besides very specific situations. And even then, we still have better options. It's a far cry from Avidity/CD which are used in pretty much everything and reasonably effective in almost all content.

[untold blade]

Annnd people will answer again about how much adorns and equipment will change everything.
We're looping here. Just ship it