Gilgamesh- The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

[marsh laurel]

Not sure I fully understand the first dot point, but yes collateral damage hits are elementless (not to be confused with physical).

[haughty dagger]

What I meant to ask is CD cannot proc more than once if you are using aoe skill like sweep?

[hearty ruin]

It can proc multiple times with an AoE skill.

[haughty dagger]

Hmm. I need to test again. I couldn't get it to proc multiple times.

[ebon totem]

or CD proc rate is quite low?

[haughty dagger]

Around 30% with the spiked stance iirc.

[ebon totem]

the same i met. i cannot see it proc multiple times.

[ebon totem]

while using AOE skill

[haughty dagger]

Also I using Arisen Labrys. It supposed to improve the CD damage and proc rate.

[ebon totem]

and it cannot work right while raiding

[hearty ruin]

Oh. If it can't proc multiple times then that has changed

Because it definitely used to 😅

[hearty ruin]

What do you mean it doesn't work when raiding?

I don't understand

[ebon totem]

dmg is not right

[hearty ruin]

Oh, did it not die from that?

[haughty dagger]

The 2 hit from SS3 + CD should total up around 12m damage but the the top left show 9m which is the SS3 damage.

[hearty ruin]

That's odd

[haughty dagger]

Verified only reflect SS3 damage without CD.

[tulip obsidian]

Its not tied to Spiked Shield

[haughty dagger]

Seems like all damage that proc CD.

[marsh laurel]

Have let Odie know, hopefully doesn't mean any delays to anything

Looks like the ward isn't consuming on that CD turn also

[haughty dagger]

CD without stance shouldn't consume ward?

[marsh laurel]

You can notice it if you use Spiked Pauldrons, it isn't consuming the ward from the CD hit

[tulip obsidian]

It did here

[marsh laurel]

While the numbers are present, the ward isn't going down (for me at least)

[tulip obsidian]

Oh so it's just a visual

[marsh laurel]

Good news is that with Labrys, the CD procs are juicy

[marsh laurel]

Opposite nearly, like the visual is showing but the actual numbers aren't happening

[ebon totem]

To be honest, the experience with CD is not as good as Deity's buff.

[simple sage]

What is the proc chance with Labrys?

[brisk siren]

Is there a list with improved items ?

[haughty dagger]

From what I saw, there are currently 2 items that gain effect with CD. Arisen Labryn and Gungnir. Not sure about the rest.

[inner arch]

gungnir about to become meta ?

[limber basin]

chimera and tiamat axes also by looking at beta stuff.

[inner arch]

chimera axe too ? is it just me or that's massive ? free zerk1 + collat buff in a sweep horde scenario looks strong.

[haughty dagger]

From what I tested with Arisen Labryn as Deity Ursa - Zwei Fencer, 9/100 (~10%) proc rate, 15% of damage dealt as CD.

[limber basin]

sea axe also, greatly increases even.

oh, the effects of items are not limited to gilga? Good.

[haughty dagger]

You probably need to hit big number to make up that low proc rate and damage.

[inner arch]

what deity ursa ? I see no change in deity, do I have an older beta version ?

[haughty dagger]

I use Deity Ursa as base so I don't get procs from Gilga passive. Sololy testing the weapon effect.

[inner arch]

Oh you mean the collat gear also gives you like collat 1 or something

[haughty dagger]

Yeah. I think around the range of CD1.

[inner arch]

looks like greaves and pauldrons works on it too, its damage is up to 18% and the proc chance feels none negligable

that feels like a significant buff to the chimera axe if you ask me.

[remote osprey]

See this is exactly what we didn't want though lol

[inner arch]

unfortunatelly I don't see a gilga using it. more like a deity thing.

[remote osprey]

Other classes getting access to CD just means that Gilga will be not the best class to use that passive on lol

Seems counter to the point imo

[inner arch]

and other classes having access to deific channel means that deity is not the best class to use that buff, I don't see your point

[tulip obsidian]

I'm also a bit disappointed, not that i hate other classes getting new stuff to play with... It's just this was meant to be our thing 😅

[remote osprey]

It was never a diety thing. It was a t9 God class spell. Try again.

[inner arch]

like t9 gods is not the deity class line sure bro

then collat is not a gilga thing

[remote osprey]

CD was designed as a Warrior passive and then last minute they open it up to other classes via gear and undercut the whole thing

[inner arch]

majistrate is also part of the thief classline, should RS have collat ?

[hearty ruin]

Alright people no need to go at eachother's throats like that

[remote osprey]

Now it's just BeoH meta with CD weapons to come and steal our thing.

[haughty dagger]

I opened a can of worms, didn't I?

[inner arch]

You're overracting imo, only real user of it will be deity, which is supposed to be the jack of all trade if I belive what I was told

[hearty ruin]

As it is right kow, the all-class-CD would come from wearing a few, specific itemd.

[inner arch]

mb RS dorado also can

[hearty ruin]

And it is restricted to those items; as well as dealing less damage and proccing less often than gilga's CD

[tulip obsidian]

I think they opened it up to other classes and thats what got us CD V on all gilgas to make sure we perform best

[hearty ruin]

Gilga can wear any weapon(s) and CD better than any other class wearing those specific weapons

[tough spear]

I still think that it should be a warrior only thing

And unless the class has the CD passive then the gear shouldn't proc for them

[haughty dagger]

Spiked stance shouldn't work for other classes as well?

[tough spear]

This is meant to be a warrior only thing and opening it up to other classes to use isn't a great idea imo

[remote osprey]

Yes

They should not

A simple tweak to the weapons to make the CD aspect of them only work if you have the CD passive is the easiest fix

[haughty dagger]

Even if they do function, maybe at a diminished rate. Like 10%?

[inner arch]

Then what ? we also remove free turn from finesse spec because it's avidity with a twist ? And we remove BB1 from Tamer and T9 gods because it's valhallan only ?
If you start removing things cross class like that, then I really see no reason for everyone to have deific channel.

[remote osprey]

Its not avidity though

[tough spear]

Dc isn't the identity of deity

[hearty ruin]

Deity didn't even have the dc passive originally

[remote osprey]

And yes I would agree with bb1 being removed from Tamer

[inner arch]

if DC is not the identy of the god classline, then it really don't have identity

[haughty dagger]

OOT but tamer should +1 current BB level instead of BB1.

[inner arch]

meh, beoH with BB3 would be too much of a menace

[hearty ruin]

It is lacking on the identity front right now, it is true.
It's a jack of all trades, but beo does that better.
It transcends elements, but heretic does that better.

But still, this is a gilga thread. Not a deity thread.

[remote osprey]

From the inception of CD it was said to be a Warrior class only thing

And then last minute they flipped it

Really not happy with that

[haughty dagger]

The gears unintentionally flipped it.

[remote osprey]

Making the gear only function if the class has the passive is an easy fix

[hearty ruin]

It's possible it isn't intended yknow.
They just added flat percentage boosts to the passive

Which might've added to other classes' 0

[remote osprey]

Hopefully we get a statement about it

[hearty ruin]

But we don't know if it is intentional or not

[inner arch]

can't wait for Odie to wake up and find the world on fire because of a fomula mistake

But to wrap up my thoughts on that, I find it a little childish to want it warrior exclusive will in its current stat it's a weak version of it and require a specific item warrior locked to be equipped.

[drifting horizon]

I have the same opinion

Have the class perform it much better? Why keep stuff class locked?

And I see people saying how the passive of finnesse spec isn't like rs avidity but almost every class is exploiting it now

We don't see rs folks asking for avidity to be class locked do we?

[haughty dagger]

In long term wise, more CD related gears will be introduced to the point that with enough proc rate and damage, we will have the same issue similar to old DC proc by Ashen Phoenix via blackened eyes. That's how I feel.

[inner arch]

does any gear other than weapons have it ?

[wanton idol]

Prob in the future there will be

[drifting horizon]

And even if it does I don't see a problem, as it boosts damage those gear will be the most effective on gilga class

[inner arch]

but if they're warrior locked, it still keep the spirit of warrior move. Plus if new gear do it, then gilga equip it too and they're still the king of collateral damage.

[drifting horizon]

Just have it be much more effective on gilga than keep it entirely class locked

[inner arch]

maybe we should try to pinpoint cases where those could become more powerfull on non warrior classes and cases where this would become the best in slot for a non warrior class. Personally, I don't see much outside of horde carry with the chimera axe.

[limber basin]

new dex bonus on warrior gear looks to be higher than that of the thief equivalents across the board also, kinda wierd.

[drifting horizon]

Dex and health? That's just op

Should be half of thief gear imo

[hardy imp]

that's just silly

[inner arch]

I get that gilga wants/need some dex gear, but it as to come at a price imo. You can't just add dex to existing stuff without any counterpart or else you can add that dex directly to gilga stats.

[limber basin]

I get that my pants aren't 200% nor GFed, but gosh...

oh wait, dex does't even scale with quality.

[inner arch]

you really have a pair of godforged black dragon greaves ?

[limber basin]

the hel pants are mine, the dragon greaves are from beta.

[inner arch]

oh it's the free stuff from new beta character

I was thing of what would lead a man to GF those

[hearty ruin]

Dorado flourishing. Thriving.

[inner arch]

can't wait for the 10.000 dex untouchable dorado build

[limber basin]

dodge from dex is capped at 40%.
Plus it can be shut down by select cc and is completely ignored by spiked shield.

[tulip obsidian]

Dorado passive caps at 3k i think

[inner arch]

40% is the base or the increased value from dorado ?

[limber basin]

does dorado even increase the max dodge chance achievable feom dex?

[inner arch]

the passive reads "further increase your chance to dodge"

imagine it goes up to 50%, half the time you don't take any damage.

[limber basin]

Wasn't aware.

[inner arch]

dorado passive is overlooked. it has better dodge, steadfast, better accuracy and recovery from status.

[drifting horizon]

Trash mana though

Can't do well in dungeons at low al

Anyway this is gilga discussion channel let's keep it that way

[formal wasp]

Whoa, wait, what?
They made Collateral Damage ability usable for other classes?

That doesn't sound good imo

[tough spear]

Agreed

[formal wasp]

With the promise(?) of making more gears for the new passive, it'll only be a matter of time before a different class performs better with it

[inner arch]

how ? it's not like gilga wouldn't be able to equip the new gear

[hardy imp]

idk about that. it's been a long time and beo is still the best at pets, despite lots of various pet boosting gear being added.

[inner arch]

IMO the main reason for it by far is the amount of pet act beo get from passives

[formal wasp]

They're limited only to their passives, while other class that could use those would have their own that may lean to the playstyle in a much more versatile way

By then, calls for better identity would be made yet again, rinse and repeat

[inner arch]

so you want every class to have a mechanic only for them ? that's not the case for many classes currently

[formal wasp]

First thing that came to mind is GS CS; GS of all classes don't have any business using SS/CS to that effective degree, yet with their built-in passive + access to CS/SS, they can blow through tower content easily

[formal wasp]

I never said that.

[inner arch]

so you want only gilga to have specific passive ?

[tough spear]

It's supposed to be a class identity

Meaning it's unique to that class

[formal wasp]

Going back to the "it'll only be a matter of time" point I made earlier, it'd be better if they open it up, yeah, but not this soon

[inner arch]

and it is. The current form of the weapons buff only allow a select few classes to cosplay gilga with a far weaker version of it.

[drifting horizon]

Then I could argue that finnesse spec passive was a mistake too, classes like deity, beo and even gilga ard playing like rs in towers

We don't see rs players complaining

[drifting horizon]

Exactly

[tulip obsidian]

I've seen people complain

[formal wasp]

The trigger condition for that is different, where RS needs to act, Finesse needs to kill

[drifting horizon]

Which isn't a problem

[formal wasp]

Depends on who you ask

[chrome nova]

I have been playing beo hydrus as a spiked shield gilga 👀

[hardy imp]

It's still an identity if it does it by far better than others.
Followers are a beo identity but are not unique to beo.

The class-locking stuff isn't necessary to achieve the goal imo.

[inner arch]

in tower with chained shield, there's no difference. so should gilga be allowed to gain free turn with chained shield spamming ?

[drifting horizon]

Gilga gets the passive from the class on a higher scale while other classes can get it through weapons on a smaller scale

Your point seems invalid

[tough spear]

Followers are different compared to this

[drifting horizon]

Not just in towers, high anguish dgs too

[formal wasp]

Why is that a problem? They'll be forced to lock on a spec just to be able to do that

[drifting horizon]

We'll be locked to a weapon?

[inner arch]

also you're talking about collateral damage being gilga identity, but that identity is CLEARLY the fact that the class is based on ward.

[formal wasp]

I feel like you're jumping hoops here with your arguments

[tough spear]

Well obviously not if other classes can have more ward and use spiked shield better

[tulip obsidian]

I feel like we should wait for an official statement from odie

Chances are this isnt intended

Also CD seems to be bugged anyway so this might all be a huge misunderstanding

[inner arch]

It may be unintended, but also a fortuitous mistake.

[drifting horizon]

I hope it stays even if it was unintended

[hardy imp]

I wouldn't mind non-gilgas having tiny access to CD, nor non-realms having tiny access to avidity, nor non-summoners having tiny access to summons, nor non-valhallans having tiny access to follower damage.

And someday when heretic and deity have their own "thing", that thing can also be somewhat shared in a small way for more interesting builds.

But sure -- maybe it's unintended implementation anyway.

[inner arch]

We've already given so much to the world. We don't have anything left

[drifting horizon]

The main problem is that gilga players actively pursue for changes to be class locked instead of asking for making the class more stronger, personally I believe that keeping stuff locked to specific classes is never good.
Let gilga class have a stronger cd proc and effectiveness but at least let other classes have a small taste too?

[formal wasp]

All this and it still doesn't include summoners having access to followers

[marsh laurel]

Ha I try to have an evening out and look what happens 😅

[inner arch]

we troll we spam no mod no ban

[marsh laurel]

@tulip obsidian @spare widget

I think given the date of release this is a good one summarise all issues quickly and ping Odie with them in #orn-discussion

I would wager that the gear giving other classes access to CD wasn't intentional, as it was all added yesterday. Regardless I'd rather hear from Odie on that than have us assume he did something to actively annoy the warrior folk - this whole patch has been an exercise in trying hard to work in something new and cool for warrior folk.

So let's calm a little, have the ORN guys summarise and get issues to Odie so he can fix them 🙂

[tulip obsidian]

I'm on it

[drifting horizon]

Dude that's so good gotta save it you made my day 😜

[inner arch]

that's what copy pasta are made for

[viral moon]

Agree

Just like other classes can taste avidity / bestial bonds

But its fine. CD barely moves the needle in a tiny form

[ebon totem]

add to spec

[inner arch]

which one ? zwei make the most sense for me as collateral damage looks like a byproduct of heavy hits. Cataphract could also work and imo it needs a little help.

[tulip obsidian]

Odie to the rescue 🦸

• Warrior gear dex was decreased
• CD works again
• CD doesnt work on other classes

It was all a bug dream

[spare widget]

Thanks for being a boss Yoshi while I was busy being lazy..sleeping.

[tulip obsidian]

timezones be timezones ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[spare widget]

I didn't have time to test out any of the changes yesterday on Beta 😐

[inner arch]

This will set a precedent for every new class mechanic then. So BB1 should be removed from Tamer and T9 gods. Additionnal turn passives should also be removed from finesse spec.

[drifting horizon]

Let's leave it be, let the gilgas have their thing

[marsh laurel]

Mid sleep bathroom check-in - great to see bossman come to the rescue.

Let's not make weird narratives around precedents guys, studio has never operated on weird precedents like that, so let's not stir unnecessary drama.

Thanks for the hard work ORN guys!

[limber basin]

Not a fan of enforced class exclusive gear with a point of beo, deity and celestials' attractiveness is supposed to be able to use cross-class gear.

[spare widget]

You can still use it?

And with the added dex on some of it, helps even more

[limber basin]

did I really need to add "to it's full extend" here?

[inner arch]

It's not "unnecessary drama", I just want to understand why it's ok to share a new mechanic like BB, but it's not ok to share CD. As of now I didn't saw any valid argument outside gilga refusing to share a mechanic.

[drifting horizon]

They think that it will "supposedly" make gilga weak compared to other class

That's why they don't want to share

[low crystal]

I think it is fine (and clearly so does the creator of the game) for classes to have unique passives. That has been the case all through orn’s life. Diety might be in a tough spot right now (I am only repeating what I heard I have no play testing on this idea personally). Go make points about short coming of the class and post it on discord. That is how this change happened. Assuming your comment is in good faith and not sarcastic.

[drifting horizon]

I think this update really discourages different versetile builds when it come to cd, I do hope that it becomes usable for other classes someway in the near future

[low crystal]

Additionally outside the t10 meta. Warrior class line feels just slower and not that much healthier then thief or magic users. This change has a really good chance to let people into the gilga class

[inner arch]

that still doesn't explain why BB is accessible. That's impactful for the future developement of the game so I wanted to understand the double stardard but clearly I'll not get any response other than "it's like that, now go away".
Also I've made a post about deity, but the size of the deity crew is so small that the posts about it die too fast to blow up.

[viral moon]

I dont personally care either way, as im not a huge fan of this update to begin with. I would just like a little bit of consistency here. BB is accessible thru tamer. Avidity is accessible through some abilities (delay strike / chrono stuff even) and sort of some specs (BoF).

Again, not that i would really use this ability or even build around it, but having a flavor of a mechanic from a different class is a healthy way to get a peek / prospective before fully swapping to a class

[marsh laurel]

Saying things are a precedent is kind of unnecessary, it's not the case.

Odie has said he'll look into Deities next 🙂

From here, it feels like the update is solid now and this is becoming a thread for disagreements and not much else, which means it may be time to close it for now.

[drifting horizon]

Sure the precedented but might be a bit unfair but I think this disagreement is overall healthy for gilga, what other classes think about this change is also necessary.

As this change basically adds a gateway for other classes to ask for exclusive content.

[simple sage]

What is the highest achievable chance of Collateral Damage?

[spare widget]

It's going to take significantly more testing to parse that out

[tulip obsidian]

thats a good question, we have yet to test that

[inner arch]

it's additive so that shouldn't be to hard to determine

[tulip obsidian]

its multiplicative, atleast the damage is

[inner arch]

it will be with 2 non-celestial 1H weapons tho, doesn't look optimal

[spare widget]

The weapons just went into Beta yesterday, so it's going to take several hundred whacks to get an idea of a statiscally relevant percentage

[inner arch]

weapons give 10%

and it was like 15% damage

(for 1H weapons)

[spare widget]

And I don't think they are all the same

[inner arch]

oh, then I only tested the chimera axe

[spare widget]

For instance sea axe says Greatly increases

[haughty dagger]

Arisen Labryn (2H) also ~10% chance and 15% damage.

[simple sage]

And the basic chance is?

[inner arch]

That was an assumption based on the fact that having 1 item was activating CD on other classes. Maybe it's not but then I've no clue how it's calculated.

[tulip obsidian]

CD V should have a 17,5% proc chance but i'll get to more testing later today

last time i got 97 procs out of 554 trials

[simple sage]

Too little

[inner arch]

depends how it adds up with chance boosting.

[simple sage]

CD damage is non-elemental?

[spare widget]

yes

Which is very nice

[simple sage]

That is interesting

Could work nice on multiple levels

[tulip obsidian]

tried again, 94 procs out of 554 trials

next up is CD V + Pauldrons

[knotty bridge]

Spiked paultron + Atlas stand + Labrys is a less than 50% after my tests without writing the results

[low crystal]

Id be happy if I could get it (proc rate) to 25%. After running most dungeons with dorado that is a personal sweetspot

[simple sage]

@tulip obsidian Go my boy

[tulip obsidian]

What?

[tulip obsidian]

yeah it takes time

and motivation

[simple sage]

It will probably be changed over time anyway

[spare widget]

Alright all, this thread has run quite the course and thousands of posts. We went from nothing to something (outside of a balance cycle no less) and with the looming addition of Collateral Damage for our beloved Gilgamesh and Warrior line, my plan is to close this out tomorrow. This of course does not mean that we can't discuss Collateral Damage specifically in another thread or any other Gilgamesh issues that may arise. Thank you all for all your hard work and input!

[grim parcel]

Gilga rework is just collateral damage ?

[spare widget]

And some gearing options as per #game-announcements message

[remote osprey]

And warrior gear balancing

[spare widget]

Don't worry, we'll continue to evaluate going forward and come the next actual balance patch we'll see where we are!

[grim parcel]

Ok tkt, just asking

[tulip obsidian]

CD V + Pauldrons
176 procs out of 554 trials
~31,7%

[remote rivet]

Can verify the above I had around 31.2%

[tulip obsidian]

so maybe 31,5%?

and if CD proc chance is 17,5% thats an 80% chance increase

[formal wasp]

Nice👌

[unreal schooner]

Just had a thought, that giving trialing axe/questing axe CD buffs would possibly help with the world farming issue. i mean it probably wouldnt even put a big dent into the issue but could at least help. you guys might already be planning that too. cant wait to see the changes!

[ebon totem]

why not buff the basic proc rate?

[drifting horizon]

Recipe for a nerf

[remote osprey]

Gilga Herc and Ursa still have CD IV on HoA

Is that a bug report worthy thing or did it get reverted?

[frigid dirge]

Oh, I didn't see the "V" there when answering that question

IV is the correct passive at the moment

[remote osprey]

Ah

Alright

[frigid dirge]

sorry for the confusion

[tulip obsidian]

damn

[cursive folio]

Does the gear that boosts colleteral damage boosts it additively? Can we get to Colleteral Damage X?

[frigid dirge]

Ursa may be an option - we'll see how the classes peform with IV before additional buffs

[cursive folio]

Curious if we can have the biggest roman number gear set

[spare widget]

As mentioned yesterday, this thread will be closing soon. I had planned to close it when the update went live to Orna. Not to say we can't start new threads but if you go back to the early part of this thread it's taken quite the journey.

[tulip obsidian]

Yey

[knotty bridge]

Isn't this a thread for Gilga in general? We can close thehttps://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1159137595360559164 but I think this one can stay open