Gilgamesh- The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

[raven axle]

The cost is a bit steep though because having both new buffs on me (Pauldron and greaves) and despite Stonewarg and my axe and cata, I was still seeing my ward going down when using several CS in a row

I shall try dungeon with it rather than tower because having to buff up 2 turns is counter productive for tower if we want to lower the tower time as opposed to doing it once at the beginning of a dungeon and that’s it it is set

I strongly believe it must be used with another gameplay than spiked shield or chained shield for orns farming in dungeon because otherwise I don’t see it being a plus at the moment for that full orns farming. We don’t have much ward to start with when we go full orns gear so having those buffs is a no no

Now, I’m not the sharpest tool so i must be missing something here that would solve the orns gear issue and I didn’t see it being correlated to those 2 new buffs.

[remote rivet]

Well, to be blunt you don’t want one class excelling at everything 😛

[raven axle]

List me one thing Gilga excels at at AL20 and under compared to other classes 😛

[small canyon]

Being frustrated?

[tulip obsidian]

Nah every class does that

[remote rivet]

Raid survivability, Gauntlet clear speed, PvP (any gilga spec assuming), and Towers survivability and clear speed.

You said "list" then said "one thing" so I got a bit confused with what you wanted. I went with list.

[small canyon]

250 gilga sub al20 doesn't really excel at any of those things, but it does them okay

Now if we're talking sub 250, sub al20 then it doesn't even do some of those things well

[remote rivet]

Which specifically?

[small canyon]

Raid survivability i'll give you

Because ward takes hits, but the clears are painfully slow

define gauntlet clear speed?

we talking normal, boss, horde, hard versions?

[remote rivet]

All. Of course they all excel at different aspects of each mode.

[small canyon]

pvp is endgame event gear dependent, 250, and AL to be dominant in pvp

[remote rivet]

If you combine clear speed and survival rate is when you see the difference.

[tulip obsidian]

You might have missed the "Excelling compared to other classes" point

[small canyon]

i'm al57 gilga and i normally dungeon as realm

[remote rivet]

But this is solely about AL and gear restrictions were not mentioned

[small canyon]

gilga can't orn farm for shit at just about any al

[remote rivet]

Correct, hence why wold farming isn't on my list.

[small canyon]

what's world farming?

i'm talking dungeons

[tulip obsidian]

He's playing aethric

[remote rivet]

You said orn farming. I mention the fasted method.

[small canyon]

oh

isn't there a whole discord for that that isn't this one?

[remote rivet]

Aetheric and Orna because I gotta keep that account going

[tulip obsidian]

Yes but it isn't as active and the game doesn't have a beta with gilga changes

[remote osprey]

CD isn't on Aethric yet so we don't have a choice but to be here

[small canyon]

i'm just teasing 😛

[remote osprey]

I'm not here because I wanna be lol

[remote rivet]

On a side note I love CD.

[small canyon]

I think it's pretty cool too

[remote osprey]

I'd rather use my actual character to test this

[remote rivet]

Sad when it hits things that are already dead though.

[small canyon]

would like to see the splash damage trigger after initial damage and move to another mob if the first one dies

i also think the ward consumption of pauldrons and greaves is too high

[remote rivet]

I'd love that if it happened

[remote osprey]

I'd like to see it kill second chancers

[small canyon]

keep in mind when i was testing it was on SS builds, but using pauldrons actually resulted in less dps than without

[remote rivet]

Annnnjd no lol this is where we part ways haha

[small canyon]

i get that its supposed to help open up non-ss playstyles but it was a pretty glaring difference

[remote osprey]

Can't have it proc after initial dmg to splash onto other targets if the first target dies, but also not kill second chancers

If they second chance, splash should be able to hit them again and kill them

[tulip obsidian]

Don't really care about second chancers, just want it to not kill dead enemies

[small canyon]

could be changed then to always splash to another mob buyt then it wouldn't be useful in raids

[remote osprey]

It's a have your cake and eat it too situation

[small canyon]

but i also see it more as occaisional, unreliable bonus damage in raids so i'd be fine with that too

it shines in horde content

outside of horde it's inconsistent and mostly hitting things already dead

[tulip obsidian]

Can one of you please change your profile picture

[small canyon]

but then that change just makes it chained shield

lol

i've been meaning to do that

[tough spear]

Haha

[tulip obsidian]

Please do

Im always confusing the two of you

[remote rivet]

It really depends on how it's coded in. Unfortunately, I can comment on if they can/cannot since I do not know such a thing.

[tulip obsidian]

[small canyon]

better?

[remote osprey]

Killing second chancers would be great for towers, those facrion God class mobs, Deity, and Heretic getting second chance is so annoying to cs clears. CD killing them off would be a lovely QoL improvement for me. Also having CD work one way for PvE and another for PvP would be an easy fix for that.

[tulip obsidian]

That'll do

[small canyon]

Will work for now

i've been ainz long enough

I wouldn't mind if it hit any standing enemy randomly including 2nd chancers

it's just hitting the dead guy that feels bad

although with BoF spec it's probably going to feel a lot better

[tulip obsidian]

BoF, new pumpkin gear, CD sounds really good

[remote rivet]

You can because it currently can hit a different target than your initial target. They'd just have to up the priority on other targets.

[remote rivet]

Took me a minute to take that. Had to wrap up a kingdom gauntlet.

[remote osprey]

What am I looking at?

[remote rivet]

It's procing onto a different target after initial one died.

[remote osprey]

....that's not what I was talking about lol

I'm aware it can do that lol

Tested it for hours

[remote rivet]

Oh, then you meant something else with what you said?

[remote osprey]

My comment was that if you hit an enemy that gets Second Chance and you CD that same enemy, it should kill it. It currently doesn't.

The only way it could potentially kill a second chance enemy is if you CS two enemies and they CD each other rather than themselves, that could potentially kill them. Haven't run into that scenario yet.

If you hit an enemy that has Second Chance with enough damage that it can kill it, there are 2 ways CD will interact with it the way it currently functions.

1. Enemy Dies, CD hits them again anyway (wasted dmg)
2. Enemy gets Second Chance, CD hits them, they don't die (wasted dmg)

[remote rivet]

I’m thinking the separation of PvP and PvE on that would be nice when put that way. I wish I could test further with Gobannos gear as well while I’m at it. I haven’t had a cross CD happen either but tbh, would also be hard to track if it worked unless both did indeed die.

[remote osprey]

If you solve option 1, option 2 will also be solved

Either the enemy dies, then the CD proc check happens, sees the enemy is dead, chooses a remaining target, damages them

If that's the case, then Second Chance means the enemy isn't dead, CD proc happens and chooses an enemy at random, Second Chance enemy is hit again and dies

[remote rivet]

In addition to all that they can at least keep the way its currently coded and save it for PvP.

[remote rivet]

Odie actually addressed this one a little while ago after many of us talked about it in here. Let me see if I can find it.

@small canyon

[small canyon]

Yeah, I saw that. Waiting to see if it happens to test it

Right now they work kinda like bloodshift and don't seem to be worth the cost

Although I never actually tested to see if the effect actually stops if ward runs out

[raven axle]

Why survive raids when you can 3 shot them with heretic, deity or Beowulf? Asking for a friend 🤪😂

Gauntlet? Dunno man, summoner oracle full orns double amity does maybe twice or 3 times per dungeon or endless what i can do with Gilga. Sooo dunno. If you’re talking about hard dungeon with anguish, sure, probably. Orns gear? Don’t think so no unless you’re maybe AL 40+

I’m not salty man I’m just simply realistic. That’s why Odie decided to revamp that class, it clearly used to be at the top but sincerely all the classes have caught up now and some surpassed it easily.

(And I used heart of change on heretic to the benefit of my Gilga so I love Gilga. Just saying).

[royal hamlet]

40al just close to breakeven realm 0al att

[novel bone]

Maybe with 100+ you can have a decent ward using orn equipment

[low crystal]

Could always ask Moljour

[flint geyser]

No you don't

As the right now gilga just don't have enough dmg to go deep at onr gear plain and simple.
For gilga to go deep he needs the ward to make use of ss1, which means no orn gear.

[inner arch]

looks like the main problem of gilga is that he needs something more so he can use other builds than just spriked shields

which sounds like gilga ursa

what I don't really understand is that gilga have more att than deity but can't do other builds than ward based apparently, why is that ? what's the limiting factor in it ? the dex maybe ?

[spare widget]

Yeah mainly missing all the time

That and you have less base def and resists so your defense becomes ward. Which can cause issues when you aren't in high ward builds, or outside ursa you need that ward to keep yoru stats up

[inner arch]

the only solution would be ursa in full riftrogue, but is it really doable ?

[spare widget]

I have a love/hate relationship with Ursa

The 20% stat boost is laughably low for a T10 class stat boost and does not apply to PVP (afaik) but it's crazy easy to manage by just killing some zerks or arisens

[inner arch]

the concept of it sounds good tho. you drop your ward like goku and start hitting like a maniac

[spare widget]

And Ursa has quite a lot of HP so low ward builds don't matter as much

[inner arch]

overall ursa stats looks fancy. Maybe it miss 1 more stat passive, like beoH who also have a 20% stats but also hybrid monster

or maybe the passive could be upped to 35%. not quite the 50% you'll have from your regular passive, but easy and up at all time.

[limber basin]

you also lose the occasional deity passive procs.

[inner arch]

as a deity myself i can tell you, you don't lose much (at least outside horde)

how many raids did I do without a single proc

[spare widget]

You certainly did them with more procs than Gilgamesh 😄

Though Deity is in a pretty flat spot right now too

[limber basin]

most raids don't last long enough for it to matter, but occasional turn 3 kills are nice.

[inner arch]

how do the auto-counter in pve ? I bet it's reflecting barely any damage

[spare widget]

From ursa? Works exactly the same as it does in pvp

if you get hit hard it reflects hard

But anything that hits you hard enough to /really/ matter is going to dang near kill you

[inner arch]

yea but in pve mobs have far more hp than us so it's meh. what if it was boosted by att for pve only ?

[spare widget]

I have had a couple lucky saves though on Fallen Realms

[flint geyser]

Dexterity is a huge problem for gilgamesh and Hercules, at anguish 50, if not ss you miss everything.
Thank fully Ursa have way more dexterity so is good for running hard boss at anguish 50.

[spare widget]

I have trouble with Boss at Anguish 9

Fallen Realms have to be stunned before every attack and you are 1 crit realmstrikes from death

[inner arch]

I have to stun them too with deity, they may be bugged with mystic feather or their dex is just ridiculously high

also fjalar, impossible to hit even at anguish 0

the one from distorded scrolls at least

IMO dex shouldn't be affected by stat bump

[spare widget]

I just started running Distorted scrolls with my beo alt with Kektus so I don't have to worry about allt he summons, otherwise all I get done is chained shield summons and rtegen ward

[inner arch]

I use AV2 on them, but fjalar is like 33% chance to hit

[flint geyser]

Is bugged, and a fix was supposed to be out "soon" according to odie but not yet.

That's why beos, gs, are having a walk doing anguish 50, because they can stun/def the mob and his companion is killing him.

[inner arch]

anyway from what you said, I don't think that collateral is helping ursa a lot

too bad because it looks like the most interesting of your 3 classes

how hard would it be to reach sweep threshold with a trialing axe ?

[spare widget]

Beos are primarily able to do Anguish 50 right now because of Bastion and interface with Oracle wall amities, Ymir shield and some celestial adorn that escapes my mind atm, they can just bastion every turn and take no damage while Kektus rips and tears

We have a high powered Beo in our kingdom who has been ascending like a mad crackhead cause of Anguish 50 Horde

[inner arch]

beoA bastion spam looks like a no risk / high reward currently

[spare widget]

2 minute Anguish 50 horde boss

[chrome nova]

👀

[spare widget]

There he be

You woulda thought I pinged you

[chrome nova]

Glad you didn't

[spare widget]

Plotting your return to the glory of Gilgamesh?

[chrome nova]

However I might say I have used maybe 2k proofs total for ascending

I need to keep a close eye on my fellow axemen 👀

[spare widget]

But how many Orns 😄

[chrome nova]

But those I dont gain with bastion cheese

I do it like mjolnir does

And he is a gilga!

[spare widget]

Well, Mjolnir is juuuust a bit higher than both of us in Asc too

Sometime I need to see a video or his build or something

[chrome nova]

Well, beo cant run orn gear vs ang50 hordes

Unlike a specific non-beo class

So leave turtle beo alone 😎

[inner arch]

mjolnir be like : "gilga is perfectly playable past the first 150 AL"

[spare widget]

I don't think he's running Hordes

[chrome nova]

I meant summoners

[spare widget]

Ohhhhh

[minor hare]

My gilga definetely not running orn gear vs ang50 hordes XD

[sterile kettle]

Ya'll are running hordes 😆

[frigid dirge]

Hey folks - experiment #2 can now begin. The Greaves and Pauldrons stances are now toggleable stances that will allow warriors to control their Ward burn/Collateral damage bonus.

Rather than per-turn ward burn, collateral damage now splashes to your own ward when collateral damage procs when Greaves or Pauldrons is active

I sent this message 3 minutes early. Please stand by

Thank you for standing by. The changes are now on the beta client

@spare widget @remote rivet @tulip obsidian @small canyon @ anyone-else-that-was-interested-in-this-one

[tulip obsidian]

Nice

[remote rivet]

Time to do some heavy testing 🙂

[spare widget]

Thanks boss man

[remote rivet]

What are you thoughts on a fixed % ward damage upon activation? Currently with 1 stance one CD proc can 0 out my ward (Using SS3). Got a lot more testing to do but noticed this right away.

[simple sage]

My little Gilga 🥩

[frigid dirge]

It's possible that the current %s might be too high

[simple sage]

Btw Mystic Feather bug at high Anguish level fixed?

[frigid dirge]

yes

[simple sage]

Love you

[frigid dirge]

https://media.tenor.com/Wx5PMj8o12IAAAAC/i-know-star-wars.gif

[simple sage]

I just realized that i finally can hit Fallen Realmshifters ❤️

[remote rivet]

Seems to double down on the high risk/reward on Ursa so far. That I definitely like.

[knotty bridge]

I made a chained shield hit twice, which had double CD and I was at 0 ward afterwards (my build regenerates just a little more guard than sc)
It's interesting

[remote rivet]

Did this for Giggles

Double stance above
Single stance below

[tulip obsidian]

Huh

[remote rivet]

Currently set at a percentage of damage delt as ward damage. Definitely a little rough but silly.

[knotty bridge]

Regen in weapon?

[remote rivet]

Yes, not that it matters too much hah. Double feet one lung for regen because sandbox

[knotty bridge]

The loss of ward is violent

[frigid dirge]

I'll give the %s another go

[remote rivet]

It is. Odie wants it to be about ward management though so it's seems the direction is clear and its almost there. Some adjustments just have to be made :). We just gotta help pave the path for that direction.

Would a % of max ward be better here? Thoughts?

[hearty ruin]

Not gonna lie, this is hilarious

Casting Spiked Shield VIII over here

[knotty bridge]

Losing so much wouldn't bother me if on my test the CD weren't done on the same mobs, I could have finished the floor but I killed 2 of them (twice time)

On the other hand, I have the impression that it happens more often and I like that, I think it's the right number

[jolly pivot]

when you use only 1 stances you consume 60% (little more) ward if proc CD

[remote rivet]

Depends on which one you use.

[remote rivet]

Once I handle a few things at work I’m going to do it with DC up and some zerks just so I can save the screen shot.

[hearty ruin]

AAHHA

Just slap in some ward regen augments you'll be fiine

[inner arch]

you lose all your ward, but does the buff still proc without ward to consume ?

[knotty bridge]

No proc no ward consume

[remote rivet]

Only if you have Spiked stances active will it do this btw.

[inner arch]

that's not my question. if you already have no ward, will it proc regardless

[remote rivet]

Yes

So it doubles down on Gilga Ursa high risk high reward.

[knotty bridge]

Hord carry is free dommage

[inner arch]

that's what I was thinking of. Ursa can use it fine, but bastille will make it hard to ever use on other gilgas

[remote rivet]

This is just the first test after change :p

[knotty bridge]

I tested a hord dungeon with the base Gilga and I wasn't in difficulty when I had no ward

[marsh laurel]

Bastille helps if your damage is too low to one shot things without the stats boost - but assuming you're able to get over those thresholds, the splash damage should be straight up useful and free occasional extra hits

[inner arch]

but you still lose bastille buffs. best case scenario would be that ward consumption could be negated with regen when using non-spicked skills (like sweep of warrior pavane)

then the stances could be seen as converting any skill into a ward consuming skill

and a straight up buff to ursa

[marsh laurel]

CD with Pauldrons and Greaves doesn't appear to be triggering any ward use on Gilgamesh Ursa currently (vid incoming on australian internet):

[minor hare]

Read mystic feather bug fixed at high anguish. That just made my day

[remote rivet]

I finally saw the cd proc. My connection is slow. Good find!

[remote rivet]

Have you done the same with a
Follower active that gives ward turns?

Just tested a few other things as well good catch @marsh laurel

[marsh laurel]

I have not done it with a follower active, but may be tied to active ward turns

[frigid dirge]

It’s looks to be a bit of a action order nuance:

1. Turn starts, Ward turns are reduced (so Ward turns is at 0 now, thus inactive)
2. Collateral damage procs (Ward is not active at this time)
3. +1 Ward turn is added at end of attack

[marsh laurel]

Ah gotcha, so functioning ok then?

[frigid dirge]

I foresee bug reports so it’s not incredibly ideal

[tulip obsidian]

fallen sky leggings meta

[remote rivet]

For now we don’t even need ward turns for the proc. Will definitely be a nice addition if/when this changes 😄

[inner arch]

Doing it with mage dance instead of sweep is just a bonus flex ?

[cursive folio]

Bard feels a bit more versatile on what the spec brings vs zei when it comes to not needing to swap

[frigid dirge]

Do we like the current approach better than previous? %s should be more reasonable today

[low crystal]

This is so cool that the dev is chatting up players about how the game state is. I know it is “normal” for orna. But it is so unique. Thanks for your time Odie

I would test but I have the wrong phone type 😅

[tulip obsidian]

Still leaves me at 0

[frigid dirge]

oh, the change did not hit the beta server. my apologies

it's there now

[remote rivet]

Feel much better and sustainable in both Gauntlet and Raids. 👍🏼

Good balance of risk/reward with each or both stances up.

[keen ivy]

How does one go about making a mirror request?
I want to try this out, and give feedback from an Ursa perspective. I have no idea how many people are like me and have an absolute love for Ursa, but want to see if it balances well for Ursa and give feedback 🙂

Plus I have a few ideas and comments but don't want to make a big post until I can give feedback on CD. But the basic thoughts are
-How are we addressing the poor accuracy of Gilga? Ursa can pick up riftrogue gear, and there was the rift distortion chestpiece, but would be nice to brainstorm solutions to this conundrum
-Current I'm being told "multi-hit moves" would only have 1 proc of CD. In order to move away from SS style builds, would it make sense to try and have different cahnces or somehow an advantage to using multi hit moves with CD? This would mean rather than straight gain for spiked sheild, things like gaurding strikes, hexacut, ultimastrikes etc become a juicier and more attractive option.

Will make a basic new 250 for now and poke around today and try to give solid and condensed feedback. But I appreicate all the effort and discussion!

[inner arch]

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1158885560962797719

[keen ivy]

Oh shit?!? Where was this said?! This is amazing! You miss one day investigation a Weed facility that burns down (kinda ironic) and all these big developments come out XD

[low crystal]

The miss saving mechanic looks to be the second proc of damage can go to any mob. I dont have the beta to test but from the vids that looks to be the case

[minor hare]

Scroll up. It's up there

[keen ivy]

True ross, but I'm thinking about things like high level anguish, and deep endless. The enemies Dex is so high that it's spiked shield or bust.

[tulip obsidian]

Okay, so i lost 16666 ward cause i dealt 33333 Colleteral Damage.

That means that each stance costs 1/4 of colleteral damage in ward, when CD procs

I kinda find it wierd that it's not based on max ward like everything else

[marsh laurel]

Got so confused by the "lost damage", lol. Then reread a bunch then saw the screenshot

Lost that much ward, got it.
I'll have to test some today myself!

[tulip obsidian]

Oh sorry 😅

[marsh laurel]

Haha nah that's a my brain thing

[tulip obsidian]

I had to write it down to understand it and see if it made sense

I feel like this i kinda punishing higher ascended players that deal a lot of damage

For example if i wanna run high anguish, i go high ward and buffs but when i get a cd proc I'd lose a ton of ward cause I'd deal a lotta damage.

Of course i wouldnt run both stances, just spiked pauldrons for a higher cd chance / pseudo aoe chance

[marsh laurel]

Do folks do high anguish Gilga in any other build than ward recovery, in non-horde boss?

[frigid dirge]

just deal the correct amount of damage, problem solved

[marsh laurel]

My recovery for that is really high, that the occasional dip wouldn't hurt me as much as the collateral damage would help, I don't think

[tulip obsidian]

I haven't really ran any anguish content outside of hb anguish for orns cause i hated to deal with the mystic feather thing

[keen ivy]

I am assuming my lowly anguish 20 doesn't count as "high anguish" XD

My basic anguish strat has my LAA taking care of ward recovery for me, and me occasionally trying to do my own recover/turtle combo with shield of strength.. tower of strength?!? The Rhada greatshield button.

[tulip obsidian]

I definitely like this cd proc -> ward damage better then what we had before

[keen ivy]

Haven't loaded up beta, but form reading and seieng the vids, it does seem great. And hopefulyl we can swap to %max ward from % damage dealt

[marsh laurel]

It's 1:45am and I'm just waking so haven't tested anything yet. Will get to it shortly - but is the splash still occasionally hitting an already overkilled target Yoshi?

[tulip obsidian]

I shall test that

[keen ivy]

you are a hero mate. thank you for doing weird hours for us

[marsh laurel]

% damage dealt could drain ~all ward in Ursa builds for Horde Dungeons

[keen ivy]

Yeah thats my concern. Ursa has become my love, but managing ward is especially challenging (for obvious reasons) So makes gearing a bit unique.

But I'm okay with that, because the unique nature of that counterattack, the random chance of it... Just adds a thrill I can't even describe. Seriously, when I realized I could Ursa my towers earlier this week, I got that same "christmas morning joy" feeling, and it's still there (goes back to poking at Tower of Waifu as Ursa)

[flint geyser]

The problem is not the dmg, the problem is we need the ward to survive horde content at anguish 50, we are not beo/gs who can just use the defending button and let the companions kill the mob.

[remote rivet]

What do we need ward for ;D

[frigid dirge]

note the , friend

[keen ivy]

I was about to say, there is the mimc chest at the end XD

[frigid dirge]

defend cheese for anguish is likely not something that will stay - i wouldn't use it as a baseline for Gilga changes, unless we want to set Gilga up for a nerf

[marsh laurel]

Are there really many folks doing Horde content at anguish 50, outside of many the Beofolk with that funky defend build?

It's pretty inefficient for success rate vs non-horde. Not sure I'd put it at the top of my list of "things to solve for Gilga"

[remote rivet]

The damage adjustments seem nice but all joking aside you have a point there I touched on a bit back. Would be nice to see 10% of max ward be consumed on collateral damage proc per stance . Would make it more manageable as Ursa.

Kinda rough to think of a proper % though if I’m being honest. Have to look at some numbers.

[keen ivy]

^The above what Odie said. Hoping defend cheese will eventually go by the wayside, and for me just focus on the ward management (which I think is the entire thoughtline here)

And if we make it so Gilga can do anguish 50... chances are that will be nerfed XD

[remote rivet]

15% max ward damage on CD proc per stance maybe?

[keen ivy]

I mean.. we can ask for 5% per stance and see if it sticks?

[marsh laurel]

Gilga can do anguish 50, it's just about gear and Ascensions.

We shouldn't confuse it with doing anguish 50 in full Orns gear

Also, wouldn't consider against horde a necessity in the hardest guild, personally

[remote rivet]

As much as I love Gilga I will never recommend something unbalanced for the class 😛 (As much as I would like to haha)

[keen ivy]

OOOHHH! Right.

I've totally been runnign my anguish 15-20 in full orns gear....

Hunh... I should try swapping to serious mode. Also I'm doing non-horde when solo

[keen ivy]

Oh in seriousness I agree. You 10% feels about right shooting from the hip, but would take a lot of testing to get it right. Overtuned means future nerfs, and I'd rather not go through that dissapointment. We're gilgas. We go slow and steady, so lets get this right the first time around!

[remote rivet]

I’ll say this. High anguish is all about patience with Gilga. Stack that ward regen and make counterattack your best friend 😛

[keen ivy]

You are indeed He who Helps

other than farming runs I still haven't fully played with Anguish. Just so much content and things around (plus I've been on an ascension frenzy) but yeah, gotta play with that guild more seriously

[remote rivet]

I try :D. Many are more active with helping but I go into hour long discussions with people on their builds. Many do it better but I’m always glad to help.

[keen ivy]

but I'm in danger of sidetracking the main focus of CD and the changes

Has anyone tested CD vs second chance?

I'm curious as to if hit 1 triggers, hit 2 bypasses, or if hit 1, goes to hit 2, goes to total damage, then second chance? I assume the latter?

[marsh laurel]

Let's not get distracted please 🙂
I'll get the newer mirror requests done in the next couple of hours sometime, and you can test and get your comments together post testing

[remote rivet]

Let’s talk CD. We’re typically in end game gear here but considering the lower tiers for a second and fresh T10 I though the following.
If you made it % of max ward damage on proc wouldn’t that be a better move for those players that aren’t fully fleshed out in good gear or T10 like us?

[marsh laurel]

My last tests, CD was nearly the same hit, so it wouldn't defeat second chance. Not sure on current build

[keen ivy]

Cool, I'll add it to my testing rota and get back to yah

[ebon totem]

work like doublecast

[marsh laurel]

Ok, still the case.
Might be an ok (albeit sometimes frustrating) thing to exist in order to balance it a little

[tulip obsidian]

😔

[marsh laurel]

Yeah, I'm wondering that also. Particularly for raiding with Swordplay/Pavane early days

[remote rivet]

A fix would be prioritization of a non main target however this would cause issues for summoners in the PvP aspect.

[keen ivy]

^On the above topic of the new players, a counterpoint would be an early introduction to "ward management" playstyle

My raiding I still rotate between SS and Ward of Light III, and they should have WoL 1 or 2 by then, so their raiding would alternate those two.

So I'm still thinking there are advantages in terms of "introduction to the ward management playstyle" putting it as %max ward

Plus adds more value to the choice of pets that help with ward management values

[remote rivet]

iirc don’t they have ridiculously low skill slots early. I might have to double check this.

[novel bone]

My biggest concern is with the low dex of the base Gilga (Ursa is ok and I would leave Hercules to use Spiked Shield), it doesn't seem like a good idea to switch to skills like Guarding Strikes, etc.

[keen ivy]

T10 base gilga is 10, titangaurd is 10

[remote rivet]

AV-8, TG-10, TGU 9

[tulip obsidian]

Is there anyone here that ever used strikes of ursa / sow ward in any form of content?

[keen ivy]

ursa is 10 I believe and herc gets a bonus and is 11

[remote rivet]

I’ve played with it quite a bit. What kinda info you need?

[keen ivy]

never sow ward. I have a theoritcal strikes of ursa done up, but haven't built/tested it yet.
One idea for PvP, one idea for higher anguish

[novel bone]

I would really like (and I've already made several attempts) to use Strikes of Ursa, but 3 turns is a lot.

[remote rivet]

Sow ward I’ve used in party support builds.

[tulip obsidian]

Nothing particular, just wanted to know if people used it. I certainly dont

[remote rivet]

I rarely use it in a party environment. As for Ursa Strikes it was simply for testing various setups.

[tough spear]

Why can't we make the skill 2 turns

Would make it substantially more appealing

[tulip obsidian]

Rend / Ursa

[remote rivet]

Sow ward with cast turn reduction is fun to mess with your fiends (sequencer) or as a clutch use in Endless as GSA but I haven’t seen a necessary application when used with Gilga.

[novel bone]

I asked this a while ago but didn't get any answers. 😅

[keen ivy]

2 turn, or 3 turn and double the penetration (or multiplier as NFS officially calls it)

[remote rivet]

Maybe it would be better to have Sow Ward be a hp and mana regen per turn and be a single turn cast but drain ward? 5% hp and mana for 5% ward degeneration?

Maybe have it operate like a stance as well?

Since it is unlocked by Gilga Herc it would be a nice upgrade from diffuse ward for softer applications and less concerning scenarios.

As @tulip obsidian pointed out it currently sees extremely little to no use.

[marsh laurel]

Possibly adjacent to my broader Gilga concerns. I'd be much more eager to get CD feeling right than distract the focus to sow ward

[flint geyser]

More testing later today, but as the right now the collateral damage % to proc seems kind low.
Spiked leg/pauldrons the ward consumption a little bit to high, which make the use of those together not worth it, over what we have right now.

Need to test on raids though.

[simple sage]

What is the chance for Collateral Damage to proc when the Stances are active?

And without?

[remote rivet]

I don’t think the intention is to make it incredibly comfortable when using both stances.

[remote rivet]

Fair, that’s definitely a discussion for another time then.

[tulip obsidian]

Dangy mentioned 15% -> 25% with stance

Atleast from his testing when it was released

[marsh laurel]

Yeah have to retest

Not sure if any proc rates have been changed as various other things got buffed

[simple sage]

You can get extra turn when the CD proc? I just saw something like that in beta

[wanton idol]

Might be a bit late, but I tried making strikes of ursa work and it's really bad

[remote rivet]

If Disciple spec

[simple sage]

Ah, right

[wanton idol]

Way better to just defend by yourself a couple turns and then use a big hitting move lol

[tulip obsidian]

Sounds like fun

[marsh laurel]

Just amounts to writing down hits and the CD procs amongst those hits

With the stances it'll be waaay easier to test proc rate with shoulders now

[flint geyser]

Not asking for a huge boost, but if I am understanding this right the whole picture is to give a gilga a boost to his game play, so using those together not really doing it.
Have about instead have one those skills to up the % to hit an extra target, useful when using chained shield.

[simple sage]

CD is not always hitting extra AoE target when it proc?

[tulip obsidian]

Spiked Pauldron is essentially that, altough it sometimes likes to hit on corpses

[small canyon]

Have you noticed if the stances stop working when you run out of ward?

[tulip obsidian]

They shouldn't

[small canyon]

It didn't seem like they stopped when I did some Ursa testing

[flint geyser]

Really? The description doesn't say that.

[small canyon]

Which I would consider appropriate

If they stopped providing the bonuses at zero ward they would effectively be unusable for ursa

[tulip obsidian]

A higher chance for CD to proc is a higher chance to hit an extra target

[small canyon]

I like the stances much more than the original iteration

Would still very much like to see them not hit corpses

Need to do a little more ss testing with stances in raids but been crazy busy with work the last couple of days

[simple sage]

Shouldn't the extra single target dmg of Collateral Damage be automatically redirected to the next target if the original dmg without Collateral Damage kills that single target? This would ensure that the extra dmg will not be "lost"

[remote rivet]

It depends on when/how states are checked.

May be tricky to implement.

[tulip obsidian]

Yeah i hope they change this

[simple sage]

If it stays as it is now, most or a large part of extra dmg of CD will be just lost without any benefit. However, if this dmg were transferred to other targets, it would be very well used

[hearty ruin]

At the very least, if the collateral damage doesn't transfer on overkill, it should at least not drain ward on overkill. In that scenario, it's punishing - not rewarding - a player for getting a proc, which feels fairly counterintuitive

[marsh laurel]

The called out earlier instance where we may dislike the forced target change, would be against summoners in PvP

[hearty ruin]

Where was that, I missed it

[hearty ruin]

This here?

I don't disagree that it'd be extra powerful against summoners, but how relevant would that really be anyway?
Batallions got so hammered down in pvp that I've seen it trigger maybe once in 30 live pvp matches

[remote rivet]

That’s the thing. I don’t think summoners should be hammered down on more. They’re in a decent spot with battalions in PvP right now. Would hate to be able to bypass that.

I’d suggest otherwise if they weren’t hard countered by fomorian gear being out there for Summoners/Beo and chain shield already being pretty effective against them.

With AV2 and CS in the skill/spell pool it presents a wide variety of classes the potential to handle them with ease.

[simple sage]

@marsh laurel Make the transfer not work for PvP then? Just PvE?

[hearty ruin]

I see your points and I agree with them. However, I don't think it's strong enough of a point to warrant not giving gilgas the PvE QoL change that the re-targetting would give. Making summoners lose a bit extra hard to gilgas in PvP isn't that big of a deal. Moreso considering how little summon based play is viable in live pvp. Though it is also worth noting that summoners (almost) always go first, so in live pvp summoners do get a favourable matchup against most people

blood pact turn 1 usually gets the person killed by turn 2, unless their turn 1 is an avidity doubleproc or a doublebeo or stuff of the likes

[remote rivet]

Or passive counterattack

[hearty ruin]

But yeah I suppose if the passive works differently in pvp and pve that'd be a nonissue

passive counterattack is an ursa specific thing and it's like a 33% chance, it's not that relevant

[remote rivet]

I’m also not opposed to CD not being a thing in PvP

[remote rivet]

Fair. Oh, its a 20% chance iirc. Not nit picking just providing a nugget of knowledge 😛

[hearty ruin]

Thanks!

[frigid dirge]

Blades data is showing that Gilga (including Ursa) could use some help in PvP. I would foresee CD existing and helping in pvp

[remote rivet]

Glad you came through with the data on that because all I have to offer is personal experience, which is quite difficult to provide a proper opinion when adequately geared.

I guess the new target here is making sure that the CD proc doesn’t bypass the 50% hp rule.

[frigid dirge]

interestingly, it was thought that GUrsa would be one of the most dominant live pvp classes, but it is the worst performing gilga

[hearty ruin]

Would it be feasible to have CD always target a different enemy than the one that was hit, if available?

[remote rivet]

I shudder at the though of my PvP ursa setup getting stronger but I definitely welcome it xD

[hearty ruin]

Huh, really. Thought it'd be Herc the worst one. By far the gilga I have the easiest time with. Debuffs ahoy

[remote rivet]

Live or standard Arena?

[hearty ruin]

Live

[remote rivet]

Wall amity + Bastion > Bastion > SS3 usually handles everything

Allows you to zero out damage till you can one shot all while filling up ward via regen.

It’s how I handled BeoA ASG users for a while.

That or you bastion with wall amity till they lose a turn to self inflicted Paralysis/Frozen if they’re also using wall.

[hearty ruin]

Greater mimic's mischief:

Enemy is burning
Enemy is paralysed
Enemy is frozen
Enemy is rotting
You have an extra turn!
You cast lacunus!
Enemy is frozen in time
Enemy is petrified
Enemy is asleep
Enemy is stunned
Enemy is poisoned
Enemy is bleeding

That's usually how my gilga herc encounters go 😅

in fact

I even have a screenshot

[remote rivet]

No status immunities?! That’s gross :P. Wall amity with 5% hp regen is a godsend

So CD would be good in PvP per Odie. That statement is good enough for me especially since data is backing it.

@frigid dirge Is there anything specific you want us to target with the testing for now? Or keep doing all content and post the finding/feelings?

[marsh laurel]

Anyone retested proc rates?

With stances active, it'd be a good idea to.

Base, then shoulders

[frigid dirge]

feelings, bugs, findings - all are welcome 🙂

ultimately, we just want to have solid enough community buy-in that this is a good step in the right direction - at least at the class level

imo, dex issues should be addressed via gearing options, not class level. gilga's identity should be armored and slow, but we should provide some options

orn farming - tough call, but there is good chance it is improved as a side effect of addressing other concerns

[marsh laurel]

Questing shield! Lol

[frigid dirge]

yes, GSA would love a new shield

[marsh laurel]

Hahahaha

[minor hare]

Alternatively switching to Deity fixed my issues XD

But yeah Questing shield would be awesome

Or dual wield shields

[knotty bridge]

Possibility to equip shield on main hand

[tough spear]

If there is a questing shield that'll also bring up a questing lute too

[knotty bridge]

Damn you wrote it before

[minor hare]

Gilga herc has 2 shields

[marsh laurel]

I do like Gilga dex being gear related. Regardless of whether other classes can use it, it's been lovely to use the dex pants from the new pumpkin

[pastel geyser]

Dex is one of the main concerns for gilga PvP exactly what makes Olympia rogue useful of all Olympian gears

[minor hare]

Skill slot limitations and dex made it hard for my regular gilga to use anything outside spiked/chain shield

[knotty bridge]

It's just a suggestion but it would be nice to increase the boost for two-handed weapons in ursa

[pastel geyser]

I would rather see some interesting passives for 2 handers than outright stat buffs

[knotty bridge]

It can be good

[wanton idol]

Can definetly agree haha

Feels like a scuffed realm with no avidity

[pastel geyser]

Like when using 2 handers you have more chance to stun an enemy
Something of that nature

[ebon totem]

Olympian gears of warrior should have more hp

[pastel geyser]

It has most of all Olympias but the amount is negligible and stats aren't balanced

[merry osprey]

I don't know when I'd use strikes of Ursa over a stun dart followed by HS3 twice

[pastel geyser]

Where you can't stun em ?

[wanton idol]

That's a part of zwei passive actually lol

Increased stun chance

[knotty bridge]

Depending on the style of the weapon, hammer, daggers, bow, others

[pastel geyser]

Yeah like bows could have less chance to miss
Scythes could have bleed and some m2 DMG bonus something like that

[wanton idol]

Don't really want to get off topic, but I feel like offhand abilities are the most underutilized feature of 2h weapons and could single handedly fix a lot of issues/provide variety to celestial weapons dominating

[merry osprey]

What can't you stun, that you would also have to potentially use a guaranteed hit skill? I don't know

[wanton idol]

We should get a new thread for 2h and keep this for beta and gilga stuff though

[pastel geyser]

A realm with stun immunity

[merry osprey]

So that one is PvP, and in the meantime of waiting you could be taken down

[remote rivet]

While Orn farming in high anguish is tough it is indeed possible. We won't be as efficient as other classes but we can make it work.

Gilga Ursa, Blade of Finesse Specialization, Crit in farming gear, and Celesital weapon with Prom hands maybe? Rend/Epee can work wonders. CD can definitely help from time to time as well.

[knotty bridge]

Ursa hammer academy: Increases chance to stun by 20% +5% dmg
Ursa bow academy: +15% Dex -2% miss
Ursa daggers academy: +15% crit chance 5% t.def-
Ursa Scythes academy: dots +15% chance

[wanton idol]

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1159539479804129341

[knotty bridge]

It's just a rough outline to give ideas

[wanton idol]

Spam some stuff in there, let's theory craft

Leave this thread to collateral damage

[merry osprey]

I'm just going to point out this thread was to discuss the class as a whole, if you wanna get technical CD would be a beta feedback thing

[marsh laurel]

Although that is the case, I think the sentiment is more about keeping the current dev engagement high by keeping the beta topics alive and healthy 😉

[simple sage]

The fact that I cannot compete in terms of farming with people with other classes that are more than 100 ascend levels lower than me says that something is wrong with Gilgamesh

[remote rivet]

Thankfully you can put this input here from experience.

Definitely agree there.

Just want to put out that it is possible. Just not as good and far more tedious to get what you need.

[knotty bridge]

I think it's just that all classes have their strengths and weaknesses, I don't think Gilga should outperform in all areas (even if when you have a lot more Al the frustration is fat)

[ebon totem]

orns farm should be the basic game content.

[simple sage]

I don't see any single aspect that Gilgamesh is on very top at this moment

@knotty bridge

[knotty bridge]

With the current cap limit he is good in raids, in team dungeons he is a good support and little carry (he does not excel)
Yes he doesn't sell too many dreams seen like that but I love him the way he is

[frigid dirge]

Objectively speaking, Gilgamesh is currently the leader in:

1. dungeon clearing (base/ursa hold #1/#2 spots)
2. hitting raid limits (Herc)
3. soloing raids (Herc)
4. PvAI defense (Ursa)
5. Area control defense (#2, Herc)

[merry osprey]

My Herc raiding is just as comfortable as GSA but also 4x faster with the ss3 damage. That's something

[wanton idol]

What does dungeon clearing mean? Just basic dungeons?

Cause it's for sure not the leader in horde mode

[simple sage]

I would call Beo #1 for dungeon clearing, especially hordes

[merry osprey]

But then I do all dungeons and world farm as summoner because it's simply more efficient, and I don't need to spec swap out of cata

[frigid dirge]

clearing dungeons with the best success rate (read: not dieing)

[wanton idol]

Gotcha

I honestly can't remember the last time I died lol, but I guess it makes sense for lower tiered players

[minor hare]

Raise the anguish - you'll find a spot XD

[heady zinc]

Does is record everytime you die?

[tulip obsidian]

Wonder what placement gilga would get if you factor in time during horde dungeon clearing

[wanton idol]

I wonder what placement it would get at t11

Unless that is already at t11, in which case I'd honestly be suprised

[merry osprey]

Pre t10 I was mage dancing beo for dungeons before summoner really took off for me

My issue with the class before t10 was that I could do aoe damage in horde mode and have my pet take care of defending me, so why would I pick a tank class. Even if you died halfway into a horde youd at least break even compared to doing a dungeon solo

[amber yacht]

Isn't this a bit sckewed due to Gilga being the least played t10 class though?

[frigid dirge]

no, these are normalized and gilga is still played enough to produce sufficient sample sizes

[ashen bear]

New Celestial - Gilga DiBiase: Get bonus orns for killing things with spiked shield

[proven aspen]

Bonus orns for every ward point that is spend or burned

[ashen bear]

Good use for Sow Ward

[flint geyser]

Meanwhile beos,gs,realms,heretics, running endless, of course gilga is the most on gauntlets completions, cause we need to get orns one way or other.

[fallow anvil]

Not all classes need to be excellent in all game activities, afair.

[flint geyser]

However any class who has 100+ AL should be excellent in all.

[keen ivy]

I think this may be due to the effect that AL's have on Gilga. I don't think it was hidden knowledge that us gilgas really love our AL's and helps out. So at 0 AL, I think in general things fall behind. And I find with Ursa this applies as well cause it helps overall.
This is just my anecdotal information, and me poking around. I have found that it's been super hard for penetration (or multiplier as the official terms is called. The M1) as an ursa when buffs get stacked

[keen ivy]

This is a great point mate... Maybe I should try farming those pants for myself.... I was thinking of leaning towards the Rift Rogue ones, but could be worth the foresight hit in most cases... and... Something? I forget the other thing that worried me about the pants? But realizing that dex also = hit chance... hmmm....

Could lead to some interesting combos

[low crystal]

Are they normalized for ALs as well? Cause sure you could say that Gilga is on top because the class is good at not dieing. But the class isnt very friendly to players without a lot of game knowledge which would skew the data set as new players would change class.

Assuming ALs = an indicator of experience/success of gaining power in the game. Normalizing ALs (comparing Al 0-10, 10-20, ext) across all completions might help filter out the “noise” of learning the game.

Mostly I bring this up because this metric has been brought up a few times and has made me wonder. It isnt a push against the studio but just a nod to the general dedication the people that play this class have and how many whales here might skew completion numbers.

[marsh laurel]

Odie knows the classline feels a little slow and that survivability isn't the only metric players care about.

He's been kind enough to look at warrior classline outside of a balance patch because of that reason 🙂

[small canyon]

I tend not to like "not dying" as a basis for performance

[marsh laurel]

Timing, but yeah look up one post 🙂

[small canyon]

I love that the classline is getting some attention.

CD is pretty cool and moving towards being useful. It should definitely start to open up some options for the warrior line in general and give early gilga's some much needed love before SS becomes viable.

From an endgame perspective, CD is most interesting to me as an ability to enhance horde play, and as it stands now it isn't giving me the boost I was hoping for.

I don't think that Ursa was necessarily the intended target of the feature, and that's fine.

That being said Ursa still needs some love

[marsh laurel]

Yep, still in beta.
If it needs additional tweaking we'll have to get the general consensus on ways to make it feel right and form them into suggestions/requests.

From what I can see the general feel is:

The good:

• Collateral Damage is a step in the right direction of diversification of Warrior classline damage options
• with stances, plays well into existing ward management classline passives
• not accessible to other classes, which is appreciated
• exciting potential for gear to grow this area more
• stances are appreciated over temp skills
• damage% numbers seem set at good values

The desired:

• CD base proc rate increase
• splash damage to prioritise targets that aren't already killed by initial hit
• ward consumption per CD hit adjusted to max ward% (suggest 10%) rather than % of damage

Other wants adjacent to CD changes:

• Base warrior accuracy bolstering, be it through gear or other means
• Gilgamesh Ursa: Consider some buff, maybe to the two hander effect or stats passive
• Gilgamesh Hercules: Sub out Second Chance for Steadfast

Some of those I am not on board with, just trying to summarise some community sentiments and hopefully that helps you guys use it as a launching pad to get consensus on some desires. Is that helpful?

[small canyon]

Sounds about right

To add some clarification, CD doesn't push Ursa into a place where sweep becomes effective enough, although splash damage not hitting corpses would help. You'd effectively need the new BoF spec but then you lose sweep. Switch to arrowstrom, and then you lose 2h. The only real way to make Ursa into a reliable horde clearing machine is Ascension. I have AL57 on gilga and it isn't close to being enough.

[simple sage]

Hercules Second Chance should not be put away

Not at all

[merry osprey]

I've always thought siphon ward on Ursa was counter intuitive to how it's meant to be played, and felt that a form of recharge would make more sense. It plays like beoH to me

[marsh laurel]

Can't do reliably, or isn't as reliable at one shotting everything as say Heretic Bard?

Cause I can Horde Boss on Ursa, and everything usually dies in one hit. It's a pretty gear dependant situation, but not impossible

[simple sage]

Second chance is even more important than Steadfast

[small canyon]

I can't clear a t11 horde boss Ang0 without relying on rng temp buffs with sweep with the strongest 2h weapon in the game and double trevs.

Agreed

Herc needs second chance

Giving herc steadfast just makes it base gilga+

[simple sage]

Hercules totally needs Second Chance

[small canyon]

Playing around the statuses is basically the cost of getting the extra damage

[marsh laurel]

That was a suggestion made here, one I disagree with but it was made. I'm just summarising

[merry osprey]

I've never felt that. If you DB in a raid then you should see a KO move from a mile away. I'd dump second chance for level 1 steadfast in a heartbeat

[small canyon]

I raid exclusively as herc and not having steadfast has never been an issue once i learned what raids i need what gear for.

[marsh laurel]

I think Hercules is not just fine, but good. Folks did make a point of asking for buffs to it though

[small canyon]

it isn't for raiding

Herc needs second chance for pvp

I get that my opinion isn't the popular one and and I wouldn't argue if herc lost second chance for steadfast. It would make my raiding more convenient, but that's all it is.

[simple sage]

I think it's a bit of a shame that most classes have around 6 passives, while Hercules only has 4

[merry osprey]

I'd probably just PvP in gilga classic, solves all problems

[small canyon]

herc is a pvp beast if you build it correctly

only gilga iteration i've had any real success with in BoF

[tough spear]

As a gilga I've never really had to rely on second chance unless we're talking about live PvP and even then it's probably not gonna change all that much

[small canyon]

It's won me quit a few BoF matches so far

Guess we'll see what happens once the beta changes go live

[tough spear]

Ok apart from PvP/BoF where else is it useful

[small canyon]

Does it need to be useful elsewhere?

I've always felt second chance is a pvp passive

[tough spear]

Hmm fair point

[small canyon]

Where else is it useful on other classes?

[tough spear]

Well if it's useful when they are using a class cannon build

[small canyon]

sure to get an extra hit in, but I'd say that a bonus feature more than a selling point

[tough spear]

Well it could potentially save you in a dungeon if you get hit hard

[small canyon]

Maybe with anguish now, I could see that

Probably not going to be a concern for gilga but heretic definitely

[tough spear]

Yeah

[small canyon]

Deity maybe

[tough spear]

Hydrus too

[small canyon]

yeah, forgot about their 2nd chance

saw a pet disappear in BoF and thought it was a bug the first time lol

[tough spear]

Haha

[wanton idol]

isnt the whole point of herc not having steadfast that you have to have a downside to regular gilga?

otherwise its gonna just be gilga+, no?

[small canyon]

I wouldn't say a downside to regular gilga, but more an opportunity cost to significantly increased damage

But yeah, herc with steadfast is gilga+

Again, I won't complain, but I get the design choice

[marsh laurel]

Ha that's what I said initially but folks wanted it still. I'll try find the commentary

Again, I was just summarising the conversation here, that has happened over some time!

#1130839743706448034 message

Around here was one instance of the conversation wher folks asked for specifically Steadfast as a trade of for Second Chance

[flint geyser]

I was one off asking to trade second chance for steadfast, and still up to.
To me steadfast is more important than second chance.

[ashen bear]

Not one of the people who think herc needs steadfast, but I just don't see where second chance is more useful than steadfast. Second chance always felt weird on gilga because your ward is usually depleted so you're at your weakest

[dreamy orchid]

I too thought that ursa was going to a pvp star, but it turns out that it’s mostly a one trick pony with counter attack which can also be foiled by the health windows. It also doesn’t help that other class lines have ways to get stronger during a match (Iconoclast, resurgence, w/e the diety and beo passives are) where as ursa is a flat stat stick, and regular gilga gets weaker the more dmg it takes

[low crystal]

It is so sad to not red/blue/purple line with the class. I feel like it hits like a t8 class

[dreamy orchid]

Agreed, gilga can do anguish horde just fine with regen build, good gear and enough AL. Especially now that realm mystic feather bug was fixed. Don’t really have concerns with orns build either as anguish is mostly mat farming

[dreamy orchid]

I think with some love ursa can be a really cool class

It feels like the two hander class identity still has not been figured out yet in orna

One hand and off hand presents a lot of utility

[minor hare]

Can confirm I did do anguish 50 horde before

[low crystal]

Agreed. Especially with some skill outliers (upward strike 1/2) on the ability it is just isnt as good as one hand and shield

[dreamy orchid]

Also across the whole clsss line, and I know this opinion is redundant but regardless, second chance is an extremely weak passive

[low crystal]

With ursa?

[minor hare]

With base gilga

[dreamy orchid]

It has no synergy with bastille

[minor hare]

Spiked shield is the strongest 1 turn skill in the game by a mile

[low crystal]

This 1000%

[dreamy orchid]

Ofc if it was combined with something like,,, last chance and regain 50% ward (idk how to retain it but not make it OP)

[dreamy orchid]

Quick cast ultima would like a word with you 😂

[low crystal]

Or temp double ups for deff and res

[minor hare]

I don't classify ultima as a 1 turn skill

[dreamy orchid]

It can become one however

I think this quality is important

Ofc you gear for it but so does gilga

I don’t get a strong ss1 without attack and ward stats

[low crystal]

Nah spiked shield 1 is reliable and doesnt miss. Also you can stack an amazing amount of power on it. Definitely an outlier of a skill

[minor hare]

Makes me think other 1 turn skills may be underpowered (if not using crit build)

[low crystal]

*And also gain ward so you can get closer to full passive

[dreamy orchid]

This is the spike shield skill line in general. Is it the only quadratic benefit skill in the game?

[low crystal]

Blood pack

[dreamy orchid]

I haven’t been in beta or had much time to read thru the thread, but how is CD looking?

[low crystal]

Magic and summon hp

[dreamy orchid]

Right

[low crystal]

Looks tight. I dont have it either but Yoshi has a vid here that is sweet imo.

[low crystal]

Dangy has a nice summary of items as well.

[remote osprey]

Only on base GS

[bold helm]

@dreamy orchid yeah, balance all 1 turn spells with requiring a secondary class, the loss of almost 200% ward, reduced 60% critical chance.

[bold helm]

If it's not a crit ability replace the crit with around 600 atk/magic.

[formal wasp]

So....is this all turning out to be mathematically correct Gilgas??

[novel bone]

In my opinion, CD came to make up for Ursa's lack of a decent passive. And the problem of "class identity with two-handed weapons" is not in the class's passive but in the weapons themselves. Two-handed weapons are pretty bad compared to dual wielding or weapon/offhand.

[wanton idol]

#1159539479804129341

[flint geyser]

@clever valve
I agree Ursa need his passive a tweak, and 2handed game play too.

[wanton idol]

yeah ursa is pretty underwhelming NGL, I bought it cause i like the concept, but in reality I find regular gilga better in almost any aspect

[remote rivet]

I don't like the cost of sweep (mana wise)

[clever valve]

I'll just restate what I said in the other server since we were told to discuss it here.

Someone suggested replacing Second chance on Herc to Steadfast. I disagreed and said it would further de-incentivize players to choose Ursa, as that being exclusive to Ursa is one of only a few reasons why anyone chooses Ursa.

[remote rivet]

Never sat right with me. Other AoE options not only cost less but bypass immunities/resistances such as Mage's Dance/pavane

[marsh laurel]

Just making sure discussion is hitting the Devs eyes for you all 🙂

[drifting horizon]

Imo other classes not being able to experience what some other class is a plus point, limiting something to a single class is never a good thing
I haven't done any testing so idk much or even if this will be possible but maybe a much weaker version of this new gameplay mechanic through a side spec will be much appreciated (much like pseudo avidity on finnesse or beastial bond 1 on tamer etc)

[wanton idol]

Not sure if it's in the scope of the current beta, but ursa I feel like sucks the most out of the gilgas, and this might be further pushed with it getting the weakest collateral damage

[marsh laurel]

Respectfully, one of the more common complaints when providing Gilga good gear, is that other folks use it instead.

It's regularly shared that Gilga wants stuff that is uniquely their own, not used by others.

So the summary point in my post about that was not my own feedback, but what has come up regularly and consistently from Gilgas historically

[drifting horizon]

Fair enough ig.
Just thought that how the pseudo avidity from finnesse spec has spiced things up for non rs players in towers
Something similar happening with this feature will open up some interesting builds too

[wanton idol]

This is just extra damage, and a lot of specs(if not all) give you extra dmg

[drifting horizon]

Well a much weaker version of this will suffice but if it doesn't sit well with the gilga playerbase then it's fine

[marsh laurel]

Studio always enjoys adding neat gear later, but wouldn't make it part of a warrior patch to provide the uniquely warrior passive to others at the same time, I don't think

[wanton idol]

If anything, this synergies best with aoe, which is already spec locked

So I actually don't ever see myself using a spec just for cd

[drifting horizon]

Eh we can work work with aoe offhand

But Their damage is very low to begin with

So this extra damage might help imo

[drifting horizon]

That's fine

Actually more than fine

Gilga needs a time to shine

[clever valve]

I think having some things shared across classes is fine but there should be things that make each class unique, outside of just "magic users use magic" etc. (But even that is less a thing due to celestial classes making them hybrid). And to my point from before, giving the more used and generally considered "better" giggle class, something unique to Ursa, would only make the issue of Ursa not being as viable, worse.

[plain marsh]

How does atlas stance interact with spiked pauldrons / greaves/ CD?

I don't have the globe, so I can't do any testing myself

[vestal wyvern]

2 cents that I don’t think anyone asked for, but I still don’t think that Ursa - as a class - is weak. I whole heartedly believe that the problem lies within its weapons.

2Handers, as they are now, are simply not enough to compete with dual wielding.

[clever valve]

Probably better for this thread
https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1159539479804129341

But I agree nonetheless

[inner arch]

IMO with the amount of ward they possess, 2H should be compared to 1H+shield more than 2W.

[clever valve]

I wonder if allowing only 2H celestial weapons, to also equip standard weapon adorns, if that would be broken or be a nice balancing touch. Lol

[unreal schooner]

I’m running a tower on anguish 7 as a lvl 245, AL 15 Gilga herc 🦧, with the new disciple spec. I’m on HoA, iOS. It’s my first tower I’ve run in many months. It’s quite an improved experience with the extra turns.

This spec is just inconsistent enough to force me to never plan on it procing, but it’s really sweet when it does proc. Sometimes it just keeps procing until I’ve defeated everyone in one go.

Tbh my damage is almost always overkill with chained shield. I wonder if it make sense to increase odds of chained shield proc, or extra turns proc, or the new collateral damage proc, based off of the overkill? If not, could be nice to get weaker skills that increase chances of proc/more aoe.

Like off the top of my monke brain, the current chained shield could be renamed to something like double spiked shield (bad name I know) and a new chained shield that splits damage among targets like arrow storm.

But, to play devils advocate, maybe it’s more aligned with the gilga identity if we’re still forced to WoO, tank some hits, and then start dishing high penetration, single target damage next turn. Maybe I shouldn’t be able to look at a group of mobs and say, “I can absolutely kill them all before they hit me” like my squishy offensive brothers out there.

[clever valve]

You have nice points but I would prefer work being done to Ursa before Herc. Lol buffing Herc while ignoring Ursa only makes the Ursa situation worse lol

[idle flume]

I am with everyone that has said having steadfast on Herc would make it much more appealing.

Fixing Ursa feels much more complicated. I am at the point I actively like ursa for dungeons. but they feel so behind the curve for raids. It feels like to get damage comparable to normal gilga you have to sacrifice so much defense that you can't reliably win a raid. Even a tower boss feels like you barely survive. This has led me to a couple thoughts.

1. It would be nice if ward felt a bit more functional on Ursa. I think this could be worked via the counter attack mechanic. Give Ursa some ward recovery (preferable a flat gain instead of %) when an Ursa triggers a counter attack. This would help them passively recover some ward and make those Counter procs off buffs and such feel useful. I think this could also include some ward turns. Let the Ursa focus its active turns a bit more on offense. Something like this would make ursa feel more viable for raids beyond 10% kingdom hits.

2. Overall damage feels a bit low or at least hard to achieve without high AL's or sacrificing too much defense. There are obviously lots of ways to fix this. But since the class often ends up duel wielding instead of 2handers it would be nice if the class bonus was for either. I think you could also give Ursa and innate ability that makes buffs last longer. This would help make DC and lugus feel more viable for Ursa and help the class feel a bit more unique.

[unreal schooner]

Agreed. I didn’t have anything to add to that so I just shared my experience. Would love to see Ursa and 2H improved.

My first time using the new spec so I thought it was at least semi relevant to confirm it helps

[drifting horizon]

Tbh what's the point of immunity gears if all classes get steadfast?

In pve that is

Imo the steadfast distribution to different classes is fair as of now

[unreal schooner]

Maybe some other classes shouldn’t have steadfast, we’re the tanks! Or maybe add it to the cataphract spec for those who are staying true to their tankyness

[drifting horizon]

I disagree

Steadfast shouldn't be made so common

[clever valve]

I have not played Herc so I may not have the entire perspective here but the point about Ursa feeling weak in raids seems false to me. I guess it depends on what someone considers "weak" but I can hit over 1m pretty consistently in raids. It does become a bit difficult to maintain that if the boss is doing ults frequently or setting status but imo it hasn't felt so much of an issue that I wanted that aspect buffed.

I also disagree with making Steadfast available to other classes. I wouldn't even want Herc to get it. Herc is pretty powerful already in comparison to Ursa so to me it's like a nice balancing act that Ursa has it and Herc does not. Although, even with this in mind, Ursa is still far less viable.

btw I have mained Ursa for majority of my playtime in case it wasn't obvious lol

I think Ursa 2h boost is a nice unique touch to the class but I definitely think it needs to be improved. As some have said, even people who play Ursa tend to use dual wield or 1h+offhand.

I personally have always used 2h because I like it thematically and deviant playstyles have always appealed to me lol

[unreal schooner]

Do many classes use cataphract already? Gilga is the only class I know that gets stronger from cataphract. I imagine it would cripple damage for other classes, compared to other spec. Could be a good idea to take steadfast away from offensive, squishy classes and hide it behind a tanky spec instead. But it could also be a very bad idea 🦧 I’m no expert.

Maybe ursa should be stronger as a result of losing steadfast. It’s strange to have the offensive style need what traditionally would belong to support/tanks in other games. Especially when that class is lacking in damage already.

[clever valve]

I think if Steadfast was made available through Cataphract, Cataphract would become way more popular in pvp lol

[unreal schooner]

Definitely

[idle flume]

I actually think getting steadfast from cata would be sweet

[drifting horizon]

Look according to the game design some classes are meant to not have steadfast giving them that through any means will create a powercreep

[clever valve]

I see the points everyone is making but it seems people are ignoring the fact that Ursa is already the black sheep of the 3 Gilga choices. So why try to cripple it further by removing Steadfast or giving Steadfast to other classes/specs?

[drifting horizon]

Soon valhallan and rs players will come asking for steadfast

And then gs

[drifting horizon]

Exactly

I'm a beo main and not having steadfast hurts

But its a price I'll have to pay

[idle flume]

Its my favorite spec for raiding anyway and I think that would make herc/cata actually compete with normal gilga/oracle etc. Not sure how it would impact other class. Maybe make a special specialization for gilga kinda like benefactor for Summoners

[idle flume]

Both ursa and herc should get fixed. I wouldn't make counter arguments to herc buffs be about Ursa. They both need fixed. I would even say I use Ursa more than Herc. I basically only use Herc for offensive pvp and the occasional raid that doesn't have status effects

[clever valve]

I agree they could both use changes but the point I'm making is if 2 things need fixing but one clearly needs more fixing than the other, shouldn't that particular thing be the focus until it's at least on par with the other? I'm not saying ignore Herc entirely, but it just seems more logical to try to improve the worst of the 3, rather than keep focusing on the other 2 and ignoring the one (ursa), which effectively would cause it to fall even further behind.

[unreal schooner]

I really agree that ursa needs to be prioritized above anything else atm. I guess I don’t understand it’s purpose as a class still. What are they intended to excel in other than counter attacking? I’m still working on a 2H build and unlocking ursa with the intention of sweeping with zwei but worried that diety might still be better for this

[idle flume]

It should be about all 3 feeling like a viable choice and make the needed changes.

@clever valve out of curiosity, what changes do you want for Ursa? You seem to like how they raid which I think is the biggest downside to Ursa.

[clever valve]

Based on the fact that choosing ursa increases attack and dex, my assumption would be it's supposed to be more attack oriented.

[clever valve]

Yes, I agree all 3 could use changes. I'm just saying logically, it seems the worst of the 3 should be focused until it at least becomes on par with the next one up. At that point, would make sense to focus on the other 2

[clever valve]

I would really love to see the counter attack mechanic be improved. As well as 2h weapons in general, since ursa boosts 2h. I'm not too worried about the ward stuff people are talking about. The point of Ursa seems to be more attack focused and less defensive. So I'm okay with that, thematically.

Like the reduced ward is not so crippling that I can't do anything

Sometimes I dont even use ward. If I do, it's usually for the mana siphon rather than protection.

[unreal schooner]

Not to mention that the new 2H gear has super high HP, which I would assume helps balance the ward issue somewhat

[drifting horizon]

I agree Ursa should be more focused towards being an offensive maniac than a tank

[idle flume]

I just want ursa to have 30-60k ward or so and feel like they can reasonably refresh it and keep it going to help protect against utimates and big damage spikes

[drifting horizon]

That being said some sort of balance should be in a place

[idle flume]

How much does damage matter if you can't finish the raid?

[clever valve]

30K ward is easy to achieve. Steward Golem without any action rate boost, consistently keeps ward and ward turns up. Although I realize not everyone has Steward Golem so yea, more obtainable options for ward recovery and turns would be ideal.

[drifting horizon]

Ortanite golem or arisen stonewarg

Arisen stonewarg better

[idle flume]

Yeah I agree that steward golem feels like the pick for Ursa.

[unreal schooner]

Reminds me of Nyx vs Titanguard. Titan guard could last 40min but the nyx does more damage and dies within 10-15min. Not a bad way to farm if you want to avoid burn out but it’s all pro’s n cons

[clever valve]

Never got arisen stonewarg but Steward feels like it way outperforms ortanite golem in my experience.

[idle flume]

Do you feel ursa actually beats raids faster than normal gilga?

[drifting horizon]

Ita good probably a bit better but pretty much same as ortanite golem

[clever valve]

I can't accurately answer that as I've only really ever played Ursa of the 3. Lol

[drifting horizon]

So you aren't missing out if you don't have it

[unreal schooner]

Me? No certainly not. Idk if it will ever compete with raids on the other two. Even after it’s fixed.

[drifting horizon]

Arisen stonewarg on the other hand is excellent

[clever valve]

but I dont feel crippled in raids. I can do raids fine.

[idle flume]

I play normal the most but I am trying to play all of them and its just such a huge change to go from I can do arisen morgan in a single go on normal gilga to there is basically no chance that ursa can get through 50% in a single go.

Ursa sacrifices so much defense to basically be similar dps as normal but way less survivable. if Ursa is supposed to be offense focused, It doesn't feel that way to me at least

[clever valve]

I know some (maybe all) raids have a mechanic that if you don't reach the damage cap or kill them fast enough, they just straight up one shot you regardless of anything lol. So yea in that sense, I'm not sure Ursa could achieve enough damage fast enough before that happens. But generally, I do raids without too much difficulty.

[idle flume]

My point is that its so much easier on normal Gilga. Which is why I think Ursa should get some buffs there.

I think its okay if normal gilga is just supposed to be better at raiding than Ursa but I think the gap could be smaller

[unreal schooner]

Gilga herc feels like it was designed to be the best raiding class in the game. I really think it is.

Gilga ursa’s design isn’t immediately obvious to me. I don’t know what it’s supposed to excel at. Like, is it that they can counter one trick pony’s who attack hard and fast? Ok but that relies on rng and sucks for other content. With a major gap against pets if I’m not mistaken.

They’re not thieves/rogues. Low dex and low foresight. I mean that sounds unga bunga to me. Should be much stronger and maybe dual wield 2H? Unique whirlwind skill that does aoe but damages party members too 😂 idk I think I’m going too far with the idea. But point is i still don’t know what they want ursa to be.

[idle flume]

If herc is meant to be the ultimate raiding class, then it certainly needs steadfast. Herc is great for raids where you can get the right immunities from gear but I accidentally went into an achlys raid in my herc set up and it was painfully obnoxious

[drifting horizon]

I wonder what's the point of heretic and redlining rs then

[unreal schooner]

It can hurt the flow in group raiding too if you need to dress for the occasion. But usually someone is doing stasis anyways.

My fear with adding steadfast is that they would need to balance herc by taking something away. I would not want steadfast at a price

[drifting horizon]

Exactly

Asking for every convenient passive is just inviting nerfs

[idle flume]

I haven't done much group raiding outside of helping some lower level kingdom peeps

[unreal schooner]

I’m not sure, I never used them. Although I know a RS who one shots me every dual 💀

Heretic can mage dance like crazy and do damage limit Ultima’s right?

[drifting horizon]

Heretic can mage dance like crazy??

It needs very high al and end game gear to even compete with beowulf hydrus and base deity

[unreal schooner]

Wouldn’t bard be a good pair for that class? I never did mage dance build or a mage class

[drifting horizon]

Heretic is the raiding class

Not dungeon clear class

[amber yacht]

Give herc Status reflect since they're such a magnet for status effects

[drifting horizon]

Yeah give status reflect or steadfast to every class that doesn't have it

Cuz why not

[amber yacht]

They're not asking it for every class though

Just herc

Given how steadfast has been a staple of the warrior line passives for several tiers, I can see why they would want it

[drifting horizon]

Herc shouldn't have steadfast

I'd agree with them having it if they loose something else in return

[amber yacht]

Then there ya go, that's your opinion. Steadfast instead of second chance would make sense if this is meant to be a raiding class

You wanna be the best, no messing up then

[drifting horizon]

Immunity gear exists for a reason classes like beoh and rs daily suffer from lack of steadfast

They aren't asking for steadfast

[amber yacht]

Yeah RS can get away with immune gear

Gilga herc, at the moment, needs high ward for high SS, yes?

[unreal schooner]

I think even the big guys themselves said they think herc is in a good place right now. I completely agree tbh even if I want better aoe/farming capabilities.

Maybe ursa could somehow answer the lack of aoe/farming that the other gilgas suffer from

[drifting horizon]

They can't get away, they have to sacrifice some offensive capabilities

This should be applicable for herc too

If it wants to do high damage

[amber yacht]

Not to the same extent

[marsh laurel]

Migrating existing beta change discussion to #1159137595360559164, so folks can chat about other desires in here freely

Will direct the studio to watch there instead for now

[clever valve]

Gilga Herc asking for Steadfast is like Ursa asking for ward effectiveness equal to Herc. Each one of those things are part of what makes the respective class unique. It's like Spark alluded to, at this point you guys are asking for convenience, rather than thinking about overall balance. Every class should have weaknesses, adding Steadfast to Herc would remove perhaps the only major flaw it has.

[drifting horizon]

Yep

I'm fine if they prefer convenience, just give up damage

[clever valve]

Right, I'm saying there should just be balance. Adding steadfast without equalizing it somehow, would do no justice for balance.

[drifting horizon]

And tbh the suggestion about replacing second chance for steadfast is a lousy tradeoff

Herc is already tanky enough to not die in raids

It's just like asking for free cheese on top of free cheese

[amber yacht]

Just remove second chance from herc, bloat passive

[drifting horizon]

As I said a lousy tradeoff

[wanton idol]

This conversation is absolutely unhinged lol

[proven aspen]

I understand that the change is still not set in stone yet but what was/is the target release? The next big patch or some smaller in between patch?

[marsh laurel]

Migrated the conversation on beta stuff to #1159137595360559164 as this thread was getting into everyone's desires for stuff that currently isn't being beta'd, making it harder to track the conversation in a useful way for that stuff.

For now, I'd say there is no target release date. This is being done outside of a balance patch cycle, so will likely be in beta until we have it feeling right. So we need folks as best as they can to stay on task for the stuff that is in beta.

I did up a summary to check that it was in line with community feedback, and passed that through. It is the weekend now though 🙂

[vestal wyvern]

I know it's not in beta, or probably even in the pipeline, but could we please get a Ursa sprite that uses something other than the tooth-picks it currently is? 😄

[low crystal]

Looks like collateral damage does more damage to your ward if you do more damage.

Without the splash effect going to other alive foes and not dealing with the second chance foes in PVE. This seems like another barrier for new players, as they will be running dungeons wardless. Im not sure this solution will be new player friendly for horde dungeons. But I think this solution is cool!

Imo if the point is for this to not buff spike shield instead of providing a drain to the ward I wish the CD would just not work for spike shield play. Avidity doesnt have a down side, neither does beast bonds or beoA 2x attack. I dont see why this passive has to have a downside in light of the other newer adds. Especially because gilga passive is already half that of other passives.

[marsh laurel]

Reminder that collateral damage conversation (beta stuff) has migrated to #1159137595360559164

The point around ward consumption is in my summary post too, Odie is aware of it 🙂

[low crystal]

My B. Thanks Dangy I cant read this morning 😅

[spare widget]

Some changes are up on beta for those of you who are testing. Please give them a shot, see how they feel and post any feedback: https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1159137595360559164

[low crystal]

Im not sure how much work it would be to break out skills into a combo style system that could work with this passive specifically. Ripitose into swordplay, or horizontal strike into a quickcast CDG would be so cool. Have a set of skills that could proc into each other. This would have a similar effect to CD with a battle theme tied to the warrior class line (blademaster class)

[spare widget]

It's certainly a cool idea but it might be outside the scope of Collateral Damage adjustments or gearing in the future and to be honest I don't think of combos when I think of warrior class fantasy. That is usually more of a rogue thing, at least in my experience.

[low crystal]

I think it could have a decent play here though because its kind of like what spiked shield raiding is. Ss3 ward of light, sharpen SS3 repeat or tweak

[viral moon]

How did we get here with collateral damage. Lots to read need a tldr. This does not solve the problems previously posed to my knowledge

I regret not paying more attention to this

CD just is a flat % dps increase to all skills. Strongest get stronger, weakest get stronger. Same ranking of relative strength. This is legit just a flat power creep

Moved from beta thread to here to discuss and not impede progress

[inner arch]

you also have 2 stances that boost CD for a portion of your ward

imo that make ursa better, and herc chained shield is aoe god now I guess

[viral moon]

So for 2x turns spent stancing (which could otherwise be spent nuking with SS3) you can bring damage of other skills to barely that of ss3?

[inner arch]

IDK i can't really test on beta. I fkd up my miror.

[viral moon]

My point is you shouldnt have to use 2 turns of niche stancing to bring the non ward based skills up to par

Because that essentially makes them not par

Like all of this helps early warrior classes up thru mid t10, get all of that, but most vocal players in here tend to fall into the category of late t10 and t11

And this doesn't fix anything for those players aside from raw power creep to ward abilities

[small canyon]

For endgame players it should significantly improve gilga's horde clearing ability

Which is all endgame players really need it to be

Add the finesse spec and chained shield becomes a multitarget extra turn bonanza

Sure it makes ss3 just a win more skill, but it already wins so that's fine

If it helps get non ss skills closer to ss threshhold then it promotes diversity in builds which gilga could use

And like you said, the benefit to pre-mid t10s and the lower tier warrior classes is what started this whole thought experiment, so if it helps them, then its mission achieved

As a deep endgame gilga all I needed it to do was improve horde play, which on its own I don't think its very exciting, but coupled with finesse spec we should be back to mission achieved.

[viral moon]

I get it from the aoe standpoint

But the single target skill diversity was not achieved here imo

And ya as a deep endgame player who plays the class i can see your viewpoint but your ss3 raids basically got 20% faster

And you wont be using, lets say, hs3 or ultimastrikes to raid, correct?

Basically flat power creep on single target no diversification

[small canyon]

I don't disagree

I think it's usefulness for single target anything is questionable at best

[viral moon]

Like i 100% side with you all on the aoe stuff

[small canyon]

it's inconsistant bonus damage at best

[tulip obsidian]

i use ultimastrikes for pumpkinless atm cause of its initial weakness

[small canyon]

as someone who looks at orna as a grinding game, and has clearly shown a willingness to grind, inconsistency is my natural enemy lol

well heretics too, but that goes without saying

[viral moon]

Cant you just element ur wep for ss3

Feel like that would be faster

[tulip obsidian]

id have to adjust in amities

i really only raid as oracle with 2 20% earth amities

[small canyon]

Still trying to get my second water amity

so still raiding as cata like a pauper

[tulip obsidian]

water damage isnt that rare tho

[viral moon]

Feel like ive seen it every week in the several amity hunter sheets

[small canyon]

yeah, but i've been lazy on the huntiong party and waiting for something couchable with a decent legendary effect

imagine water, hybrid, ward regen

https://tenor.com/view/homer-the-simpsons-whatever-i-dont-care-gif-5239711

[viral moon]

Either way, are you guys not concerned that the community is going to cry wolf and call gilga busted for a raw 20% power creep ?

[tulip obsidian]

tbh no

[viral moon]

I get all of the benefits of this update and dont need to rehash those, just want to make sure everyone is good with the negatives

[small canyon]

So the little bit of power creep that gilga will get to the things it does well is kinda irrelevant

giving gilga a way to compete in horde farming is kind of essential

and i think this moves towards that, but literally only because of the finesse spec

[inner arch]

tbf, it's more than "a way to compete".

[small canyon]

without the spec it's still just inconsistant bonus damage

[viral moon]

Its not just power creep though, id like to emphasize that it is a defensive power creep - since you get to build full ward while being able to pump that of what someone with glassy rags is

[small canyon]

it still doesn't help gilga much with farming gear, and it doesn't help with endless which are the two things gilga struggles with

[viral moon]

And i can reference several instances where i have rejected ideas that power creep my own classes too. Asking for honest takes

[marsh laurel]

I'd say play with the changes before commenting it's broken.

Using both stances for semi reliable heavy procs, means an additional 20% ward reduction on proc.

It's a sizeable chunk out of your ward, especially in the outlined scenario of using SS3.

In my play testing, this does some cool stuff for the non-SS3 skills in the raiding situation outlined earlier

[small canyon]

basically its giving gilga a boost to the things it already does decently or very well

[marsh laurel]

It's very cool for CS and other horde content as well, of course

[viral moon]

For the cost of 2 extra buff turns for stances doesnt make sense though

Thats admitting that it's inferior

To use non ward based skills

[marsh laurel]

Ok, so it's gone from busted to inferior

[inner arch]

do the stances scale on current ward ?

[marsh laurel]

I think play with it. Have you done that?

[viral moon]

Yes i have

[tulip obsidian]

10% max ward per CD proc

[marsh laurel]

Cool, what's the instances specifically that it was busted, or inferior

[inner arch]

no I mean, does the benefits of it scale on ward, like do you need high ward for it to be effetive of is ok good on ursa.

[viral moon]

Using ward based skills

[marsh laurel]

It works all the time

It'll reduce ward total, and ward consuming skills also do that of course

[tulip obsidian]

except on 0 ward turns / 0 ward

[tulip obsidian]

total ward is irrelevant you just need 1+ ward turns and 1+ ward for the stances to work

i just said the same thing twice haha

[inner arch]

fallen sky leg meta lol

[marsh laurel]

I already use those almost always in horde dungeons

[inner arch]

I've a 179, I may upgrade it someday. But the stats are quit low

[marsh laurel]

Yeah I was using legendaries for the longest time. On Gilga, Deity, and Beo. So good!

[low crystal]

The thing I am worried about is that the gearing will not change with the new CD system. It adds to the current experience of gilga (Odie’s third point in goals) but doesn’t provide diversity of builds (points 1 and 2). Specifically having an option that is non spiked shield.

[inner arch]

i use 198 fey plagued greaves usually so I've trouble changing

[marsh laurel]

Based on S2iVi's feedback, and Ross's here it does seem like removing CD procs from specifically Spiked Shield skills would lean more into the diversification of skill use concern.

Honestly I think folks would be really upset if that happened though. Some who aren't chatting much right now are really excited for these changes, and removing it from SS skills would suck for the CS interaction

[viral moon]

That's the only point im trying to make

However dramatic it may seem im being 😂 sometimes have to be to get a point actoss

It seems like CD has a low proc rate, so definitely much more benefit in an aoe setting than single target, and that's probably great for power creep concerns

But it did not solve any issue of skill diversity which was one of the top complaints I remember when I did partake in some discussions earlier this summer

[inner arch]

is it really manageable to spam SS with the stances ?

[viral moon]

Yes

Actually

I have no issue spamming ss with stances

Ironically

And the proc rate is so low it doesnt matter

Nothing solved in that department

[marsh laurel]

If you proc two turns in a row on SS3 With both stances, you'll be drained of ward entirely. That's not heavily likely to happen, but could

It's a low proc (15%) base, and 30% with pauldrons. It's not excessive

[low crystal]

Im just trying to provide feedback. The original goals arent being met with this change. Spiked shield play will dominate, specifically CS. I dont know how to go about balancing that issue.

[marsh laurel]

If any gearing comes later that increased damage at the cost of more ward drain, it'll make it really unappealing for SS specifically while being really attractive for other skills

[viral moon]

Either way, the fact that you need to buff 2 extra turns to bring just a couple skills in the ballpark doesnt help to promote using the other skills

[marsh laurel]

It's good to set a baseline ability that can be played into with gearing later.

[viral moon]

I feel like this should be built in

Rather than extra skills

[inner arch]

has any geared gilga tried an ursa build with ultimastrikes ?

[marsh laurel]

You don't need to

[viral moon]

Dont need to buff 2 extra turns?

[marsh laurel]

Yes

They are entirely optional

[viral moon]

But you are saying the new CD helps promote skill diversity

With the use of 2 buffs

Or am i implying the wrong thing here

[marsh laurel]

I didn't say anything about you having to use the buffs

[low crystal]

It’s awesome to see the studio here and working on changes. And I feel really heard. It is cool if you disagree with me 😃

[marsh laurel]

For instance, there's scenarios where I don't want the additional ward drain. I use a hybrid axe a lot and losing an additional 20% ward per proc is way too brutal there

[low crystal]

It is so cool to me to even have this conversation and see some of the direction the studio is going. Really special

[marsh laurel]

It's optional, not required to use those two stances

[viral moon]

Referenced earlier, you mentioned that it is simply my choice to use the more powerful ss3 with these new changes.

That is false. That is like 100% of the player bases choice. And from previous discussions ive had regarding this classline, the biggest concern was lack of diversity. Its not a choice, it's players being forced into the option

And im saying this change does not promote skill diversity

I dont understand the opposing take to that statement still

[marsh laurel]

If it's a choice, it's not false to say it's a choice?

I use horizontal Slash and Ultimastrikes in raids, those are choices

[viral moon]

If i had a choice to play the game slower would i ever choose that

[marsh laurel]

Also, you're talking about end game Gilgas, not everyone else. This is a warrior classline change remember

Hmm, passive aggression isn't helpful.

[viral moon]

And as mentioned before it was mostly endgame gilgas that were asking for the diversity in the first place

[low crystal]

I think the what S2iVi is saying is that this passive doesn’t bring under valued skills to a better place. It places all skills in a better place. So the best is so much better you should probably use them if you have limited time to play the game.

[viral moon]

It wasnt meant to be passive aggressive

Im not getting my point across it seems

[marsh laurel]

I think that maybe like I said, you should have taken this strong stance earlier on.
We're at implementation.

It's not the end of things, let's get it in and see how it plays out. Odie has never been against later adjustments

[inner arch]

but should gilga be so diverse tho ? It's not deity, it's the tanky warded gilga.

[marsh laurel]

If at a later date it proves that SS based skills should have CD removed from them, maybe that is what happens. We'll see

[viral moon]

I cant be present 24/7 but im here now. I am just asking for how this addresses the skill diversity issue that was referenced by multiple endgame players in the original grievances

[inner arch]

You could also take the route of stonger CD but only work with 2H weapons.

[viral moon]

That is the only thing im trying to get to the bottom of

[marsh laurel]

And I'm trying my best to answer, but it doesn't seem to satisfy your questions so we're at an impasse.

[viral moon]

Without being or sounding toxic

[marsh laurel]

I'm going to focus on the feedback so we can get this in, and you can work this through with others. Maybe monitor it over time, like we will 😉

[viral moon]

Ya ill chat with others about it. Appreciate the presence please do focus more on the beta feedback. Im just trying to get the community opinion here

[low crystal]

To be fair. This change went from, “at some point” to very soon

[viral moon]

By the way what do you think about this

You were one of the many that were part of this discussion a few months ago

Who had issues with skill diversity specifically

[marsh laurel]

Generally what happens in all cases when feedback starts to die down, and it did considerably

So we went into implementation

But also, priorities need to be set to make sure we can move onto other stuff! Let's get it done!

[low crystal]

Not sure the community understood how fast the turnaround time would be. Thank you for the answer

Boom boom boom!

This studio do be producing

[tulip obsidian]

let them cook

[low crystal]

I think it is a quick fix for a long standing problem. But that doesnt mean it isnt a good fix. Might not have to use my AL 22 Dorado for horde dungeons and can instead use my AL 35 gilga (not tower variants which is a different convo) for horde dungeons.

So It is a positive change for my time investment. Always a good thing 😃

[proven aspen]

For me the biggest thing is that it's a warrior only thing, not another 'how cute but class X does it better'

[viral moon]

So the only positive we have from this is better aoe, and because endgame players care about that the most, the rest of the diversity concerns went away?

[low crystal]

Cheers to all, back to work for me 🗂️

[low crystal]

Class identity and early t10 opportunities

Other gains from this change

[viral moon]

Identity, which is a good thing but is not specific to the ability itself

Early t10 opportunities, disagree. How

[knotty bridge]

I don't agree, SS in very endgame is already quite strong and this difference is almost insignificant than other skills that don't reach the limit cap

[drifting horizon]

I too think that this is collateral damage thing is a flat out power creep. gilga is quite tanky to begin with, it shouldn't perform equally in term of damage in that sense it's like making rs tanky and dps dealer at the same time

But that's my opinion

I haven't tested a lot so idk, hopefully it turns out good and if not then there are always future nerf or buffs

[viral moon]

I dont play gilga either and am on the outside looking in. Am a prospective gilga player though. This will not convince me to play the class. That is my threshold of judging the change here

[marsh laurel]

Oh 😅

I thought you were a passionate Gilga player feeding back a heap of stuff here

[viral moon]

Did plenty of beta testing

No i am very unbiased

I am a passionate player, not passionate gilga player

Too one dimensional, and this CD addition doesnt change that

For more context, used to deity main and theorycraft a ton until class lost identity with celestials, then hopped back to Beo which i played early t10. Experience with multiple playstyles

[proven aspen]

This was a big hint that he is not a passionate gilga player

[viral moon]

So here's a thought -
The point of the 2 stances seems to be to incentivize ability diversity by increasing ward skill cost and increasing overall damage.

This is not achieved in it's current state. Having to take 2 turns to buff up your non ward based skills is not a good solution to this.

What if the stances were built into the classes? i.e. build these bonuses into base (mildly) and Gursa(a bit more than base) while not having the bonus for herc? Something along those lines, just a rough sketch

From aoe perspective - Herc will still chained shield fine, gursa and base will sweep better without extra buff turns.

Also will incentivize raiding with non ward skills since dont have to buff up 2 more turns

[viral moon]

Ive always wanted to play the class tbf. I just knew id be bored of only using ss1-3, which it sounds like a bunch of current Gilgas are experiencing

And id like to solve that for you all

[spare widget]

I take an hour to go outside and look what happens

[viral moon]

Again sorry to throw the knife just trying to help this classline genuinely. If you dont think im doing so, ill gladly keep my mouth shut

[unreal schooner]

As Gilga main I think buffing Gilga AOE addresses my biggest concern with the class. I’m excited to see this change even if it needs refinement further down the road. I am concerned about power creep but it seems the extra ward depletion is the balance.

I’m in HoA so I have no feedback unfortunately.

[dreamy orchid]

This is actually weak as you lose your faction multiplier (and ofc if you don’t have amities)

I tried it out using arcane (ss3) and quickly swapped to ultistrikes ursa

[viral moon]

25% faction multiplier vs 50% from weakness. Not having arcane amities is the part that makes sense to me

[dreamy orchid]

Feel free to try it out 😅

[viral moon]

Dont have the arcane amities😅 hence why thats the part that Makes sense

Still, 25% faction, 20%x2 amities is all you have to overcome. And weakness gives 50% right off the bat so not much more youd need from amities to make arcane better here

Dont need to test that

Cant speak for ss3 arcane best case vs ultimastrikes though

[dreamy orchid]

I mean I do have an arcane amity and max dmg ss3 gilga uses hybrid axe. I also use a hybrid amity to boost this further. Thing is at my AL, using all the same buffs my ss3 doesn’t do dmg cap twice in one hit the way does for me

Idk why message dropped “ulti strikes”

[viral moon]

True high AL just press the double nuke not single nuke

Makes sense👍

[dreamy orchid]

Can’t tell if this is pithy or not I’m just replying to why yoshi and I use ultistrikes

I can also leverage amities like the top one

Regardless in 99% of raids ss3 is sufficient without worrying about weakeness multiplier

As any sufficiently geared and AL gilga might say, it’s brainless

[viral moon]

Man everyone expecting a sarcastic undertone from me im not i swear😂

Like actually makes sense

[dreamy orchid]

Okay just checking

[spare widget]

Ultima strikes seems very tricky to build for

[dreamy orchid]

Text doesn’t carry tone even with emojis

[viral moon]

For sure seen tons of people that do

Exactly lolol

[viral moon]

There's niche items to fully juice it but its pretty easy tbh

[dreamy orchid]

For newer players there are. A lot of pieces to assemble

[spare widget]

getting enough crit to matter seems to be one of them

[dreamy orchid]

Ss3 raiding is earlier but kinda same thing but w/e

Expected grind curve of the game?

[viral moon]

Achlys souls / bulwark are the main ones, in addition to a 40% crit amity

[dreamy orchid]

I am curious to see if CD will deliver on the idea of making early-mid game warrior better

[viral moon]

Side ones being fallen sky cowl

[dreamy orchid]

Mid game for me also includes early gilga

[spare widget]

Can't hurt

[viral moon]

This

You need 2 turns to give like a 12% dps boost

Doesnt sound economical at all

Instead throw out damage those 2 turns that you instead were buffing

On paper doesn't seem to help

[spare widget]

I'm not completely sold that CD is going to fix all the issues with Gilga and the Celestials, but if I limit my scope to just CD I am happy with ehrre it is in the beta atm

[viral moon]

Fair enough. Progress is progress

The biggest issues to me were a usable aoe, diversity, identity, and early game. Feel like only 2 of those 4 got solved here. If that's good enough for you guys then ill keep my mouth shut

Id love to see all 4 solved

[spare widget]

Eh I don't think they envision Gilga as an AE class, but CD does help a bit with that. The diversity thing is a bit tricky but the stances play into that, you can use CD with Spiekd Shield but you can't really use the stances

[viral moon]

My point for still lacking diversity was that even with 2 turns wasted on stances, the other abilities still dont compete with ss3

Plus thats 2 turns wasted that could be otherwise doing damage

[spare widget]

I don't know man, a Crit Realmstrikes build is pretty nice when CD procs

And that's something you can do fairly early in t10 with a Labrys and some fero eyes

[viral moon]

Why not crit realmstrikes instead on those 2 turns you spent buffing?

[spare widget]

in a raid by yourself, 2 turns is pretty much nothing

[viral moon]

Feel like the damage only gets better over long term not short term there

Thats my only point. Weak solution

Trying to help u guys out here

[spare widget]

Sure when you are down to end game where you are 7 turning raids but this early t10, you aren't going to be doing that

[viral moon]

Plus, the boost from each stance is only 15% correct?

#1130839743706448034 message

Referencing Dangys comment here

If the CD damage is only 40% of your hit, and you increased the proc chance from 15% to 30% with one turn of stancing, you only added 6% damage effectively per turn

So youd need ~16 turns to make up for that one wasted turn. Is my math correct here?

[spare widget]

If the proc rate is 15% and the boosts are 15% each, which I'm not sold on those percentages yet from what I am feeling in the latest beta iteration, then over 20 hits of a million damage each, no stances would score you an extra 1.2 million, so basically one free hit. With just 1 stance it would score you another 1.2 million, so slightly more than another free hit and the second stance would score you an extra 3.3 million over no stances so 3 hits and some for 2 turns

[marsh laurel]

15% base, Pauldrons brings it to 30%

Greaves is not a boost to proc rate at all, only damage

I also am excited to try out Realmstrikes properly with this!
Mmmmm Gilga swash is back!

[low crystal]

^this is what I am stoked about

Gursa swash with the swash 2.0

[hardy imp]

Gursa Dof ||sounds vaguely like a star wars name? 🤔||

[dreamy orchid]

You mean gilga blade of finesse

[low crystal]

There are no pits in orna. So it will probably live

That felt like a better reference then it ended up being

[viral moon]

Right so best case you gained 3 effective hits from 2 turns of buffing over 20 turns. What 😅

So your turn economy went from instead doing 23 turns of damage you did 20 turns of damage and 2 turns of buffing

That does not incentivize me to use anything outside of ss3 from a turn economy perspective

Right?

[spare widget]

I mean personally I think the percentages on the stances should be tuned up a bit myself but at least it's not worse turn economy.

[low crystal]

And early gilga I had some 50+ turn raids easy. So seems like decent roi at that scale

[marsh laurel]

It's likely that gearing to lean into CD will come, Odie has mentioned already. Be a good opportunity for proc/damage increases

[low crystal]

Definitely 👍

[spare widget]

Just hopeful it doesn't all get done through events as that isn't gonna be super helpful to 'fresh' gilgas

[marsh laurel]

I'd imagine amities and augments are options too

[tough spear]

👀

[viral moon]

Otherwise given the current turn economy and being gear locked into improvements doesn't actually make stances help low/mid game at all

[marsh laurel]

Stances aren't low/mid game

[viral moon]

True they are lvl 230

Referring to early gilgas in this case lvl 230

[knotty bridge]

Hey Big Yoshi I need that

[tulip obsidian]

Add Mirror of Big Yoshi (2)

[tulip obsidian]

sent inv

[knotty bridge]

I'm in your group

[tulip obsidian]

You should see some atlas at my wayvessel

just turn off auto dismantle and grab one

[knotty bridge]

Thanks

[dreamy orchid]

hype for the patch

clarification: does this mean that herc and ursa also have c.dmg V ?

[frigid dirge]

yes

[remote osprey]

Nice

It says the patch will be on HoA on the 17th, do we have a time for that? It's the 17th here in the UK already and I'm excited to get my main account using this lol

[frigid dirge]

Canada time 😛

[remote osprey]

[dreamy orchid]

ty friend, appreciate you

[frigid dirge]

appreciate you more

[spare widget]

https://tenor.com/view/rho-cheshire-im-feeling-the-love-real-housewives-hearts-gif-12488440

[haughty dagger]

Can someone verify the following?

• CD only proc once when player able to deal damage to any unfallen foe.

• CD does untyped damage. CD deal damage to immune foe if player managed to deal damage to another foe.