Summon raiding builds and their viability at the endgame

[jade tusk]

Bc the new mechanic

[cunning night]

Just say ultima is the least impact from those adjust things

[jade tusk]

Oh i agree

[cunning night]

I know not any one do raid content in ang 2.0 easily just check in #1369743229297234000

We see many complanation and most from other classes btw

[jade tusk]

Yea ive been reading that

[proven blaze]

well, I havent seen too many gs players testing ang 2.0

pretty much only john egbert

[jade tusk]

And john is experiencing the pain of gs in ang

Imao what

Ang horde gs

Can imagine only bad outcome

[cunning night]

Ang 1.0 gsa is the most effiecent full orn gear

If u dont know

And gsa is the powerful tower clean up too

[jade tusk]

In ang 1.0

Yes

[cunning night]

We cant say certainly things about what ang 2.0 meta seen even it is in mess with beta

[jade tusk]

In ang 2.0 theres no such thing as ang boss horde in full orn

[cunning night]

So yeah if u play gs u gain many better aspect than most others one

Even odie dont know what he make in ang 2.0 lmao

Idk if how long for it is so reality in live tbf

But yeah better he still listen about complaints and feedback, no more ignorant

[jade tusk]

I would never play gs

Maybe if odie removed beo then maybe

But morelikely i would play archdruid

But current ang 2.0 does not look good for gs

And currently looking at the raid maluses i see alot -summon protection and - elemental dmg - crit dmg/chance

Its not looking good for gs

[scenic dove]

Fux and Kaine were waiting for the summon shackles to be fixed, in order not to get erroneous data

I respect that

I have not really tested raids or towers as summoner though, because that's not content I regularly engage with

So like, I would not be able to give out proper comparative feedback - I have no point of reference

[jovial knot]

« Hey guys if you are AL500 do you know you can one shot Amorri with magistrate turn 2? Amazing » 🤣 that’s the vibe I love it.

[jade tusk]

Everything is a al issue

[jade tusk]

#💡│suggestions message

#💡│suggestions message

what do you guys think?

the last one imo is bit better bc you can chose the summon to gain the boost

so could be usefull in many ways

[jade tusk]

#💡│suggestions message

another idea

[minor sigil]

I always tought that achlys, charon and sacrificial should be targetable, but having only one summon down seems a bit too much of malus, plus that would basically make you a beowulf

[proven blaze]

one big advantage imo of the idea is that it would help gs party raiding. If you concentrate all your damage into one summon, then its not so bad anymore to duo raid with another rhada build summoner, assuming then each player can both have their achlys 'supersummon'

[minor sigil]

true, but maybe the malus could be that you can summon only 1-turn summons, which would be meat shields for you and your dmg dealer

[stuck vault]

another pact idea: borrowed time: buffs a summon and at the end of the pact it dies. Or explodes. A mixture between a larger buff and a sacrifice.

[jovial knot]

I truly hope the NF team also reads the Orna Legends Summoner channel because there are so many legit concerns, explanations and ideas there that I guess is not even reported here… I truly hope they see the whole problem that class has got. It feels like summoner is really the forgotten child right now.

(And I’m completely and honestly not biaised as I’m playing deity for a while now but I really hope some solution is found to make Gs attractive again)

[earnest notch]

I was just chatting in there last night, lol. doesn't that show it's read?

[jovial knot]

I’m reading so many channels and topics and I saw there were a lot of valid points made by people today, so I was just making sure you guys were there

Thanks for confirming 🙂

Dang and now I realise I missed some parts of the discussion now that I’m searching for you in that channel 🥹 mea culpa

[jade tusk]

Odie is there even slight amount of hope that you remove the base summon stat restriction from non summoner classes or atleast make it similar to what druids and nekro have.... it would fix eos and other summoner pets. No need to add any extra. But normalized stats would be fine...

Non summoners have the fail chance which is enough of a malus imo

[earnest notch]

like, if there was a day when we really wanted to open the summoning mechanic up to all classes, then changes like that are likely.

but right now, my ethos is that the classes should have more unique stuff going on in their own silos (summoning bring a pillar of class identity here)

i'd likely prefer the follower-hydrus space for the Keith stuff rather than the beommoner space

[jade tusk]

I mean eos replica is a summoner so wouldn it just make sense if she could summon summons with 0% summon stat instead of around -90%

[earnest notch]

oh, right, you're just talking about how followers borrow the player's summoning power

[jade tusk]

Yea

[proven blaze]

bestial bond ability or something maybe? idk

[jade tusk]

Arch druid has around 0% stats

This is the difference

[proven blaze]

I think archdrud just has 100% stats, i.e. the base stats of themobs. Its just that the other classes only have 10% of the base stats, not sure tho

[jade tusk]

Its not much but it would help alot

17k hp is not alot but it can take 2 hits sometimes in pve(which would help in upcoming anguish content)

I can get my griffins to tank more than 1 hit but that requires lots of summon stat in gear and amitys etc = i do less dmg and in ang 2.0 that will be another beo problem

And dont get me wrong. I do like that i can build around summon stats for eos. But with base -90% its not rewarding at all

[proven blaze]

beomonner celestial class with ascended summons when

[jade tusk]

Lol no need for that

I still like that beo is still on the pet side. But like if players do not have negative summon stat. Then eos could summon base hp griffins without any investment in summon stat. Which makes it slightly easier to use eos vs with base -90% you need heavy investment in gear to just make it slightly viable

[stuck vault]

that would be a massive power surge for all other classes. I cannot imagine balancing this.

[jade tusk]

17k hp griffin

Sure

But im all ears if you can open that one a bit. What exactly would make 0% stats broken?

Other classes cannot summon and only decent way to do it is via summoner pets

[proven blaze]

I frankly dont think it would be broken either. As long as the summon fail chance is there, it'll be a novelty for summoner followers, which currently almost nobody is using except son of odin. At best it would be a buff for the summoner followers

[jade tusk]

Its not just a buff. Its a fix to the pets.

I did some testings and i have -60% summon stat vs archdruid

It would only be fair to be in par with druids on the summon stat side.

Currently no one does not recommend anyone to buy eos replica bc its useless and has too much restrictions on to be worth to even consider using bc it needs so much investing in

Getting rid of that random negative summon stat would fix one of the biggest issues that eos has

Odie i hope that you understand what i mean

[sinful lance]

Has anyone talked about actual (non beo builds) in a while here?

I haven't been able to play the game and unironically im in the hospital and can actually play now. So im looking for some new builds to raid with

[proven blaze]

I mean what is there to discuss, the builds are still the same as they were a year ago. Asg, phoenixes, bloodwarg, buggane, ancient dragons etc. Conq guild summons didnt really impact summon raiding afaik

maybe we'll get a new summon with the green game jam event soon (#📡│hype message) but idk if it will be good for raidin

[sinful lance]

Damn so conq guild summons are a bust. I have them but I can't use them due to being soft locked out of orna.

[proven blaze]

an idea that was brought up by kaine in OL:

With all classes getting a third butten and the button being able to open a menu (flasks) new possibilities open up like GS variant specific commands or stances that the other variants can't (ab)use even when snapshotting.
For example, GSA commands:
focus (summons focus an opponent, consecutive attacks deal more dmg),
heal (summons restore HP per turn)

I thijnk it would indeed be cool if GSA got some more control over summons, and a passive that allows it to increase the damage output in a way that cannot be abused with snapshotting. Because honestly, besides the warrior gear and 20% additive summon stats, GSA doesnt really bring anything to the table in terms of summon builds compared to base GS

[sinful lance]

Eh, idk i like how summons are. I just want to see them individualized. Like EACH summon brings SOMETHING to the table. So instead of flasks, like each summon has its own qualities. We can divide them into 3

Attacker/Support/Custom.

So attackers being; Bungae, VSS, etc. Who primarily have attack moves.
Support being; Cernios, sphinx kit, etc. Who have support qualities and generally have a less offensive based AI.

Then custom are the summons like; event summons, that have their own AI and Combat style (i.e how the feydogs buff THEN attack, or the summons that can summon ect fit in here, with slight difference based on the class so, gsa they summon less and attack more, and gsh they summon more when there are open spots. For gsh.

Would feel better than flasks

[stuck vault]

Late answer: 0% is still a summon with all the benefits of acting and defending the caster - and you can enhance the 0% with Bene or items. While I cannot give you an example I see the possibility that some loophole exists to push the summons to contribute more then expected to the players power.

That's why this is a delicate balancing problem.

[past rain]

Iirc base 100% summon stats does not cover:

• Summon Protect Passive
• Summon Success Chance
• Any changes to summon AI behavior

The only differences would be not having -90% stats to the summons. As a summoner main, I cannot see how non summoners would benefit more than current builds.

• Raids: Fail chance slows down raid kills. SS3, Ultima, whatever RS does much faster.
• Gauntlet: No guidelight. You think multiple turns summoning per floor is good?
• PvP: Aaaaand you're dead. #OneShotOneTurnMeta

[sinful lance]

It's almost like being summoner using another class or using non summoner builds(while on a summoner class) is the the highest difficulty setting possible.

[stuck vault]

I agree on PvP 😄 Welcome to Grand Suffering 😄

Let's phrase it that way: When this change has not clear boundaries there is a good chance it becomes overpowered. I want to address the difficulty to prevent another power creep to this already messy system.

Call it a warning to watch out.

[jade tusk]

Imo there is no way it could be overpowered, bc you truly cant use the pets effectively in differend contents. This would only help raiding with the pets a bit bc the pet would not need to summon that much bc summons are slightly stronger. And secondly it could allow eos to be slightly better for towers ( still much less efficient than any other playstyle/pet)

[past rain]

Explain please. Caution without reason is a frustrating point of argument to have. Your rephrasing does nothing to actually provide tangible concerns.

If you had access to summons with 100% stats instead of 10%, with this being the only change, what would you attempt to use?

[fiery crane]

Agree with the point in the beginning of the thread, i used to be a GSA at AL55 , and for raid it still sucks

[jade tusk]

https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1376462013496168519

[violet jewel]

I feel as if we could transfer perm buffs more conveniently, it would solve all summon builds problems as of rn

Ophion banner is very inconsistent, paetheon takes 30+turns

We just need convenient way to transfer perm buffs then, the usual temp buffs to add, we would still be the slowest probably? But life would feel more convenient

At least speaking from a T10-T11 point of view, alt is 0al, main is 50Al, nothing feels convenient, and by far everything I do is slower than the average raid clip I see XD

[proven blaze]

imo there are several ways to do something like that:
1: gsa gets an innate wintara-like passive that allows it to spread buffs to summons (would help in dungeons too)
2: buff eos blessing to give higher proc chances for buffs, current ones are pretty awful. This way phaethon could shine more as a buffing summon
3: it could be added to e.g. rhada pact 3, chance to spread specific perma buffs

[violet jewel]

Makes sense honestly

Buffs are really the solution here unless there's a huge overhaul on our class

Benefactor+bard merge could also be beneficial for us too honestly, idk many other classes that bard spec

[proven blaze]

but honestly, I would prefer ift here was a solution that wasnt rng based. It would still kinda feel awful to spend turns on waiting pahethon eos blessing procs or wintara spreads hoping you get lucky. I just dont have an immediate solution as to how to remove the rng aspects for something like that

[azure torrent]

Reverse how Achlys Pact works.
Sac a targeted summon and it spreads its buffs to all others.

[scenic dove]

that'd be pretty cool actually

[minor sigil]

or maybe make achlys pact 2 do it

[tender lily]

Different classes are good at different content. Its a feature.

[proven blaze]

so why is deity good at everything lol

dont forget that we also suck in pvp

[violet jewel]

Raiding aside, Gauntlets, towers, world farming, we still are slower than all classes using summons

We will always be slow and that's fine, won't complain there, but I do want more convience so I'm not wasting 30-60 turns just applying proper buffs on my summons to still do less dmg and what most achieve without AL at my level

[violet jewel]

Could be a start but still need more convenient ways to spread perm buffs, it may still be 20 and up turns before that 1 summon has the buffs needed to sacrifice to the rest

[azure torrent]

One Bear buffs himself att++ to spread to your bugganes for example

[proven blaze]

for magic summons you could maybe use cern to get at least mag and mag2

if that becomes a thing we need a summon that buffs itself

[violet jewel]

That's true, ASG uses great meditation but Aaru robe provides that as well

Regardless the sacrifice summon way may take long to spread buffs till if you want atk^ and atk^^, you'd just hope a summon gets stacked fast and be able to sacrifice it or the ordeal will last longer than ideal lmao

[violet jewel]

That's true

I mean we'd be able to sacrifice our DC summons for DC? But like using diverse summons for buffs would cause a slower and painful process to finally get to your damage dealers I feel like

Usually raiding it's VSS and 4 of your dmg dealer, wanna get spicy and hope your buffs apply, VSS+paetheon, then 3 dmg dealers

[proven blaze]

it will probably not be worth it for temp buffs

just doesnt make sense turn wise to sac a summon that spends 3 turns on casting dc, since you lose essentially 3 turns + whatever turns you need to resummmon it. Whereas if you have gods of aaru + rhada pact, you only lose 3 turns

may be worth it for T mag 3 tho

since thats a hard buff to get

[sinful lance]

Not convince consistency

But im with you

[violet jewel]

True sorry convince was probably wrong wording lmao none of our buffing methods are truely consistent lmao

[sinful lance]

Penguin is lit tho

🫠🤣😂

[runic junco]

not against a morri

but good summon

[violet jewel]

Temu phoniex summon lol

[sinful lance]

Nah I bake amori with birb

After 1 ang prolly not tho

[sinful lance]

Not even

Pengun+ancient dragon literally cooks

[runic junco]

cooks for an hour

[violet jewel]

Phoniex summon when it hits ritual with just DC it's 1.4 mil, other buffs it can hit much harder, but they do seem to take longer in my experience to hit, some have gotten 4 mil out of them like it's nothing 😪 I've yet to get that

[sinful lance]

Iv gotten it a few times

Penguins however is much much more consistent

[sinful lance]

Especially if you're running tethra

[sinful lance]

Phoenix ain't this consistent it's loading.

[violet jewel]

GSA usually pretty consistent dmg

[cunning night]

Anyone try mammom too? Heard he always atk and the skills is decent too

[sinful lance]

Yeah but Phoenix ain't consistent

[cunning night]

Could be another things and crit too

[sinful lance]

Also final configuration is 2 penguin 1 dragon, eoshorse & kit.

Handles most raids fairly consistently.

Kit heals doom so you can can safely pass doom to all your summons and not have to resummon.

I'm kinda curious does anyone els have any other configurations?

[violet jewel]

I use ophion banner+wintara set to give them all the buffs much quicker, 4 penguins, 1 VSS

Same way I treat phoenix summon basically

[violet jewel]

Mammoth? It's okay not an amazing raider but decent

I use lungus hands for mag^^^ and atk^^^ to pass

[sinful lance]

Another descent configuration i found was, dragon+Pegasus & grand summon. That's another dragon attack build. Less consistent than penguin tho

Still hits hard as fuck because tiamat & typhoon & slime can dragon attack.

& with debuff pretty damn hard.

Id say it even hits harder than penguin /AD

But the inconsistency isn't worth

[violet jewel]

You'd have to cycle a lot though, the dragons don't spawn that well, do they do more dmg than AD though? That's interesting

Ik I usually aim for bird and since they dodge decently alongside crit consistently it's at least 1-2 mil per turn, or I gazer spam with anubis which tends to be much more and they don't really die

Better than bird though and more consistent crits is bloodwarg, love that doggo

[sinful lance]

No when paired with AD it's far superior

Either or slimes or dragons W 1 AD is better.

Bloodwarg is amazing

I'm obsessed with it

[violet jewel]

I'd have to try it out for sure thanks for the knowledge though, usually if I AD raid it's all AD and me stacking buffs on them

[violet jewel]

SAME people underestimate that doggo a lot

I wanna say bloodwarg could have a better turn dmg ratio than ASG honestly

[sinful lance]

We tested it a while back

It's the exact same ttk as spiritgram

Due to the crazy consistenty of attack

Vs having to wait 3 turns to attack and 3 turns to cast

Also what makes penguin so good imo is if you dc/anu it, they don't even attempt to DC

They just attack

[violet jewel]

Simply because I usually get around 300k-600k per doggo, sometimes I break higher but they do that pretty well, sometimes instead of 5 doggos I'll slip in pegasus or VSS

[violet jewel]

That's nice for sure

Better summon AI is a blessing at times

[sinful lance]

I found the answer to those pesky dragon immune enemies

[violet jewel]

Mammoth lol

[sinful lance]

is it that good i got it but i havent touched it cause the hype was too strong

cause hype for spiritgram was good but blood dog was and is better

[sleek mural]

hi, can you show your setup of items and skills for bloodwarg?

[violet jewel]

Simply I use baldr gear, head, chest, legs, I use charon staff (budget) or celestial staff for summon stats, bloodwarg tome in off hand, 2 lungus hands for accessories

Skills, DC (deific channeling), wryms song, rhada pact, that's what I do and it isn't too complicated, you can occasionally ward here and there

Wintara set and shield you can apply perm buffs for some better dmg output but you lose a ton of ward

[sinful lance]

😮

Oh my god

I have a summon stick now, did my bloodwargs just level up?????

[violet jewel]

You don't even need -turns for bloodwarg so investing all summon stats into your celestial weapon of choice for it goes a long way, it hits hard enough to scale decently with summon stats, with all baldr gear you should have enough ward survival, IF you don't feel like you have enough then use a ward weapon ig, going a little slower doesn't hurt if you can survive the whole encounter

[sinful lance]

I dont use baldrs I have a mixed set

Any of those hats

I need to upgrade the manticore one

Ward is never my issue.

[violet jewel]

Party hat will be enough