#Summon raiding builds and their viability at the endgame

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

proven blaze
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and in endless you can use charmer so also doesnt affect that

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idk if you ever used the phaethon summon but it takes a while before it starts buffing your summons

scarlet gate
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for deep yes

proven blaze
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it also does other stuff

fringe kestrel
# scarlet gate for deep yes

thats only endless, and summoner is so incredibly broken in endless already im pretty sure it needs some more major adjustments for that

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maybe just change how endless works or something idk

proven blaze
scarlet gate
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deep endles

proven blaze
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oh

scarlet gate
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there you need extrabuffs..

proven blaze
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the issue with GS summons is that you cant easily get permanent buffs onto them, other than using the charmer spec

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one does not simply give attack up or magic up to a hydra in a raid

fringe kestrel
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yeah in endless you spec swap 20 times to get all buffs

proven blaze
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in endless it takes like 100-200 floors to buff the summons

scarlet gate
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yeah, the buffing process might be worse for gs, when you like/need endless its worth i think

spice gyro
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Bullshit. Assuming no smelly mushroom, as an heretic I failed plenty of amoris with fast kill set up. Yes, I can win in 3min but one well timed great plague and I'm gone.

I can fix this of course, switch to 1 hand/2 handed weapon with high ward and then I never die but take 5-8min to kill it. You know, like summoner in OP complain...

proven blaze
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If I'd do it safe as GS it'd probably take me 9-10 minutes

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The 7 minute run was not safe at all

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Thats just the fastest possible time I can get, so a speedrun more or less

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Thats with 40 ascensions as well

oak lotus
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I'm ready for the video where someone spends 15 seconds buffing and then falls asleep spamming defend for 20minutes and gets kill

fringe kestrel
scarlet gate
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i dont think making silly statements is a solution...

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but yeah, gs with summons is slow, beo with pet is slow, maybe not that slow, but beo without pet-playing is fast, gs without summon-playing is fast

proven blaze
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I just think the amount of speed you sacrifice in order to gain that safety is too much

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Of course it doesnt need to be a fast raiding method

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Bp GS is extremely unsafe. So with GS you have to choose between a fast but extremely risky raiding method or a safer but extremely slow build. Both just don't feel good at all imo

spice gyro
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Also something that as not been directly adressed. Gs can use ultima safely (for now) with 5 summons to protect him and give a small damagr boost. Achieving a middle ground between heretic speed and safety.

They can also go mage dance in hordes although less effectivelly.

So if summons get raid boosted (which I'm not inherently against) eventually gs will be truly flawless in all game modes.

Should you not trade off some defensive capabilities if you want to raid faster with summoner. I mean, the concept of blood pact was this, trade your summons health and eventually life for damage.

proven blaze
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Gs definitely cant use mages dance

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Gs mage dance tops out at like 40k with triple mag lol

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No dc

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I would choose heretic even if I had 100 more AL in gs

proven blaze
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GS will never compete with classes like gilga and realm for raiding

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but it doesnt need to tbf

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I agree about the ultima thing but that will be gone soon

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I tried it in beta and it just doesnt work anymore

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I think if phaethon had better buff rates the problem would mostly be solved. That'd mean it would still take some time before the summons have the buffs and start doing more damage, but in longer raids that would definitely improve the situation

spice gyro
mental geyser
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I hate drama so before I weigh in let me make something clear - I do NOT play summoner and I do NOT have all the knowledge about summoner let alone other classes. That being said I feel like the sentiment towards summoners is a negative one and I am starting to catch on fire after standing around it for too long. For the ones with short attention span I will get my tldr out right away - I personally believe that you should not be asking for the problem to be remedied but rather for NF to extend their data with additional metrics that include time taken (for dungeons, raids and towers at least) as this is a major indicator of class viability and performance. With this data in hand you can avoid the shit-flinging and fingerpointing which is 80% of this thread as well as many others (not limited to summoner). If I was NF in addition to the average speed I would look at the distribution of the time taken per class (and maybe do this by AL ranges if needed). This would dispell pointless arguments and personal FEELINGS from people that do not have equal experience with all classes being compared (myslef very much included.) I will also try to refrain for engaging in discussion to my points. I am not trying to change your mind just offering a different perspective.

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Now for people that actually want to hear some of my FEELINGS and opinions:

  1. I feel like using claims that are simply not true is a bad way to go about arguing for anything provided you have other points that hold water - Not all classes can do amorri within 1-2 min as stated here multiple times. Looking at HoF 1/2 of the classes do not achieve this asusming GS uses summon build. If GS is allowed to use BP then it falls on the "good side" of the raid performance trench.
    G H R B GS D
    1:17 0:49 0:59 4:38 1:10 3:41
    One can argue that with all the buffs/nerfs the current HoF is no longer valid but please bear in mind that changes affect other classes and the outliers are getting nerfed (ultima for one). See point 3 for followup
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  1. From my understanding orna tries, or at least tried, to push you to use the right tool for the job (I understand tha AL discussion here) meaning "If you want good perfromance of summonner for raids use BP". With that in mind one could argue that summoner class identity is not as clear cut as the rest (pacts and summons) but celestial classes aim to solve this issue which I very much velcome. It was also stated that the celestial classes share ALs with its base with the intention to provide flexibility of the class for different types of content. It appears to me that arguing for 1 of the identities should outperform the other in all aspects of the play renders the tower content useless as what we get is a direct upgrade only. (I am leaning towards the intention of NF as stated by them NOT the current state of the game where some classes have only 1 option since NF hold all the power to make changes to comply with their vision making it much more important than the state right now). As a personal anecdote - I main diety and I do switch between ultima builds for raiding, busted I know, and 2fencer/bard builds for dungeons. I understand that 1 build, be it atk/mage, is not meant to be the be-all end-all for all activities. I see a similarity with pact/summon paths for GS here. (I am not talking about the overall atk vs mag discrepancy here and stating this is meant to keep that can of worms sealed)
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  1. Making changes so that we adhere to an outlier is a bad idea. From the data in point 1, and the sentiment of this thread, I can understand the frustration of GS players when compared to gilga. However, from my point of view gilga is the outlier which should be brought more in line with other tankier classes rather than asking for it to be the norm. If it was made the norm other classes, including my own, can start asking for future buffs, since they will start to feel as being comparatively worse. This is a slippery slope that in the end completely removes all challenge from the game making it even more boring and resulting in its death (yes very hyperbolical doomsday scenario).
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To end on a neutral note - I believe more data gives more legitimacy to your claims. This will take more time but if it ends up showing that one of the classes of the same category is much stronger than the rest and the other is much weaker, being tanky category and gilga and GS here respectively, I will be very much in favor of GS buffs and gilga nerfs. I also strongly believe that if such a thing comes to light and NF understands it from the data they gathered THEY will be in favor of this as well which is infinitely more important than the opinions of the underinformed the vocal minority of players on discord. If what you claim is indeed a real issue then asking for more statistics is beneficial first and foremost for YOU.

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With regards to the negative sentiment towards summoners (note that this is only my personal opinion) - I feel like this is caused by the most vocal people in this discord being summoners. Be it as it may, if you see class you believe to be overpowered asking for buffs for themselves AND asking for nerfs of other classes will antagonize them. How wold you feel as a worker putting in the same hours as your manager, who you believe to be overpaid, when he starts asking the board for more time off and a better salary and an additional bonus while also advocating for your working hours to be extended as you do not meet the deadlines whilst not getting paid for the extra hours bringing your hourly wage down. This is the closest analogy I found for the sentiment. Now how would you fell if the manager asked the board to create metrics for the business value for time worked for ALL employees (including himself) that he doesn't have any control over. If you believed in those metrics being objective and saw that your manager is actually doing a lot of work meaning that his salary should be boosted you would understand that it is deserved - or that might just be me.

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There will always be people who will say "Screw your class and make my class go godmode brrrrrrr" but those are not the ones who will be considered seriously by anyone making decisions as they have nothing to offer. Since this is the very end and only people who have interest in seeing others point of view will likely reach this point I will throw in some credentials - I have been a SW dev for ~ 10 years, have worked on game balancing as well and dabbled in datascience including research. I am not saying this to sway opinions or say that I am smarter or my opinion should be taken with more weight than others. I am intentionally adding it at the end to avoid this and just to show where I am coming from.

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Happy reading everyone 🙂

torpid phoenix
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Nicely written mate

proven blaze
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I think NF have stated that speed is one of the metrics they will take into consideration in a future patch. I hope these metrics will also include some kind of separation between early T10 and T11 endgame players. I do believe summon builds are too strong at early T10 while they underperform at the endgame (hence the endgame keyword in the title of this thread).

I don't think using HoF times makes for a good comparison, since that shows the runs under ideal circumstances. It takes much more RNG to get a blood pact run right than a run with any other class since you have to deal with riftlock rng, batallions rng, quickcast rng and doublecast rng. The average time taken would make for a better comparison imo, but I guess only NF can provide those metrics

elder ibex
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I don't really get where the "summoners want other classes nerfed" is coming from

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We want summon-based-gameplay adjusted

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Nerfed where needed

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And buffed where needed

proven blaze
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exactly. I'm not asking for buffs only. I, and most GS mains I know, are fine with nerfs as well where needed. We just want a more balanced experienced overall

proven blaze
edgy obsidian
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This. I also think it’s another problem. I actually agree. Gilga’s damage output is massive and has always been. Even though it has one of the best defenses in the game. However, one problem. Odie has never said that Gilga isn’t a DPS class. Sooo…idk what can happen with that

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I think that post was a bit strongly worded. Neither side feels like they’re shit-flinging. And we don’t have the statistics required to talk about them. Soooo, we can only talk about the actual in game experience. The fact that we don’t have the data, doesn’t mean the topic can’t be talked about. It would be really nice to have the data though.

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I feel most of the aggression is more so because of people just being tired. Not so much as buffs and nerfs. But I only speak for myself. Some people prolly feel like the other side IS attacking or just wanting their class to be miles better than anything else. 🙄

cloud magnet
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Just want to respond to 2 things from the long reply above (great read btw):

From my understanding orna tries, or at least tried, to push you to use the right tool for the job

This is true... until you realize that GS has very limited build flexibility due to how glass cannon it is and lack of good items that aren't locked behind events. This is the main problem... everyone in this thread can try and ignore this point and shift the goal posts but this is why summoner is hard to balance right. You can't nerf it more because it will die more frequently. You can't buff it because it will outperform other classes.
I also said this way above in the thread that GS as it stands now (and even more so after the upcoming nerfs) is a glass cannon class that is not being rewarded. Generally, Tanky classes deal less damage but are much safer and the more fragile ones (aka Glass Cannons) have high dmg output. A summon build with DC and pacts with all the setup required to get there and the vulnerable turns a GS spends praying to RNG is not being rewarded accordingly.

Also consider (and yes, I am repeating this point) this: If another class can burn through 10 summon scrolls in around 30 minutes while a GS needs to spend around 10 minutes each... the other class just gained ~5bn XP (and other rewards) while GS only ~1.5bn. Again, GS, for how glass cannon it is, is NOT being rewarded accordingly and is at a disadvantage.

Another point: if summoner nerfs result in more frequent deaths by RNG, it will lead to frustrated players. Good game design is giving players agency. Summoner lacks that because every little bit about this class is RNG.

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The other thing is about your point regarding more data: yes, more data is definitely needed. NF was very transparent about what they published earlier but I think they can do more and give us more data. But also keep in mind that this discord server is the minority of players. If your numbers tell you a class is outperforming but the players (outside of this discord and who probably don't know it exists) feel otherwise (keyword is "feel" because in video games, that is very important) then what's the point? You will ruin their experience more.

neon trench
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Haven’t used GS much for raiding but it is 100% “Orna easy mode” for everything else PvE and PVP. I have a bare bones build for PvP. No amity. No pacts. Just summon stat focused. It wrecks some top PvP players with ease (not trying to be a brag) Same thing for PvE no pacts no amity. Just let the OP summons do all the work. Don’t really have an idea on how to make changes to it but that’s just my little input as someone that went from using realmshifter for everything to mostly using it for raiding now. T11 player here.

past rain
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It seems like I missed a lot here but I'm guessing the tl;dr of the arguments against it is that at least we can complete the content. And then the tl;dr on the arguments for it is that everyone else can do it super quick if they spec for it, why can't GSA?

  1. The complaints from me personally is factoring in the whole failing a run. I don't raid amorri for the simple reason of it takes too much time. Am I a spoiled brat about it? Sure. Call me that, it's cool. The problem I personally have is that there's a difference between being the bottom of the average by a small margain and by a massive margin. I want to be somewhere between that. I'm not asking to have high damage. I'm asking for moderate damage where I don't have to fight the dice just to break over 1mill damage a turn. If you read the pin, I have a post in there that details a full offensive build's capability. That means less ward, hp, defense, and fully reliant on rng temp buff duration I cannot influence on my summons. That is glass cannon. Why is my rng glass cannon the equivalent of everyone else's playing it safe? That is the problem

  2. Summoner's "Easy Mode": Agreed PvP wise, and real talk I wish Battalions came at a cost. In PvE we're able to both ward up and set our passive to a 90+% trigger rate. It's like second chance on roids. I wish when battalions proced, we took a portion of the damage or something along those lines. Is battalions our only life line? Yeah, but we have ward builds now. You wanna live? Ward up or shut up. I've been preaching this for a while.

  3. Summon Stat %: I honestly felt for a long while that turn 1 summon stats were fine. But after some long ass pvp testing I'm now in disagreement. Too much % from Benefactor. I'd argue that benefactor should give something other than summon %. Maybe some certain group summon buffs for mag/atk 1&2. That way this: A) Tones down the pvp damage and defense. B) Adds multipliers that Rhada Summoners desperately need.

cloud magnet
# neon trench Haven’t used GS much for raiding but it is 100% “Orna easy mode” for everything ...

You have a bare bones build for PVP because without spamming summons you die very very quickly against other classes. Pact setup in PVP means certain death for GS. No amity because 99% of those are mostly not applicable to GS.
Another thing to point out that PVP AI is not great. So many times I (GS) take out other GS areas simply because their AI is there spamming Mighty Griffin (3 turn summon) instead of warding up or using Stun/Sleep darts etc... I lose areas for probably the same reason too (even though I have it setup to prefer warding). I am yet to see a PVP AI use a sleep/stun dart or any other ability to paralyze me to prevent me from summoning. So maybe PVP issue is the AI? (not denying that GS is hard to play against in PVP but just pointing out the AI issues).

edgy obsidian
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He’s using GS on offense

cloud magnet
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yeah, the second part of what I said is just a supplementary point but it shows an additional flaw in PVP. In offense, the viable way to survive the encounter and then win it is to ward up (ward of ortanite is good) then spam summons to increase chance of attack blocking.

proven flume
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buff GS in PVE (endless, etc), i dont mind. just not in PVP. i dont wanna keep losing to GS players 30 Asc under me

shadow meadow
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lmao endless buffs

past rain
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Gods no not more endless buffs

proven flume
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u gonna need 300 floors to get all of them now

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hahahah

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i present to u the AG with over 9000 buffs

past rain
shadow meadow
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when the class can reach floor 750 in full farming gear and floor 900+ in full, besides 1 piece, farming gear

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with 30 AL

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it should be nuked from orbit with nerfs, not buffed

proven flume
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nah, i mean every class has their specialty

past rain
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Snapshotting is why lol

proven flume
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gs is good at endless

shadow meadow
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gs is THE BEST at quite a lot of things

past rain
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Not really

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Unless you ignore completion speed

proven flume
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gs just takes a lot of time

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im waiting for a raid summon. like a skill that lets me summon 20% of a raid boss if i kill it X number of times

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ex. kill fomor 500 times and u can summon it in a spell

past rain
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I'd rather that be the follower system

shadow meadow
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sure if i can use amorri as a follower

proven flume
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summon a follower?

proven flume
edgy obsidian
cloud magnet
# proven flume gs just takes a lot of time

yes, yes it does. And a point I made is that this disadvantages GS massively. I said this earlier:

Also consider (and yes, I am repeating this point) this: If another class can burn through 10 summon scrolls in around 30 minutes while a GS needs to spend around 10 minutes each... the other class just gained ~5bn XP (and other rewards) while GS only ~1.5bn. Again, GS, for how glass cannon it is, is NOT being rewarded accordingly and is at a disadvantage.

shadow meadow
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and broken beyond believe - followers spamming raid ults would not be fun for anybody

edgy obsidian
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A Morri as follower 😂

proven flume
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i mean u'd have to kill it like 5k times

cloud magnet
proven flume
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put in the work --> results

past rain
shadow meadow
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does GS even need to be a glass cannon if you build it to be tanky

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you know, like every other class

past rain
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I want to build glass cannon and see the payoff

proven flume
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GS needs good gear to be tanky

past rain
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Nah

shadow meadow
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like every class lmao

past rain
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Needs fomo gear

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And arms of Eos

shadow meadow
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gilga with bad items is also not tanky

cloud magnet
edgy obsidian
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1,106 messages. Y’all need to shut up 🤣 JFC

proven flume
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idk, same point as before, buffs for PVE im good with, just dont lemee see that in PVP

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i dont wanna fight amorri summons in wars lol

edgy obsidian
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It’s close to Phoenix record right?

past rain
shadow meadow
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i have seen more 8k hp 10k ward GS clearing f50 towers than i have seen 20k EHP other classes

edgy obsidian
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Oh. Wait. No. Ascension has 1.9k. Yeah. Keep talking

past rain
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Lol

cloud magnet
edgy obsidian
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We need to get GS nerfed, not ascensions reversed. Let’s gooooo

shadow meadow
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isnt that a pay off? being able to do content way undergeared? that obviously doesnt feel good for class "mains" its the same reason i severely argued that pet based beo need a way to make them better offensively due to gear

proven flume
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tbf arcane trolls are strong. i get deleted by them even with a deity AL 44

shadow meadow
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half the valhallan beta thread might be me saying that

past rain
edgy obsidian
past rain
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We got a lot more discussion to do

edgy obsidian
past rain
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Good smug

shadow meadow
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you are discussion to make a strong class stronger, we are trying to make a really bad class into something competitive class in that thread

cloud magnet
past rain
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GS needs a redesign overall

edgy obsidian
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Do. You. Use. BOGs?👀

cloud magnet
shadow meadow
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people are asking for GS nerfs in endless as they ultra out perform every other class and for pvp as they outperform every other class

past rain
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The worst of it is too strong and the best of it is too weak

cloud magnet
proven flume
edgy obsidian
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Ymir and BOGs for towers. You’ll die a lot less

proven flume
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i've personally ascended GS as well to do well in endless

shadow meadow
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900+ floors in farming gear shoudl really not be a thing

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no matter how long you spend for setup

proven flume
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we need to unite against monsters, not against each other

edgy obsidian
proven flume
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the Unfelled!

edgy obsidian
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But…tbh…in the end it will just be used by everyone to get massive gains

cloud magnet
proven flume
edgy obsidian
proven flume
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now it's GS, no biggie

cloud magnet
edgy obsidian
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Meh. Idk. Power creep is…getting a bit too much no?

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To double the floor average just like that?

proven flume
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separate talk but i agree power creep bad. it's affecting my territory defense

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got newbie t10s taking my territories

edgy obsidian
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Idk. I do agree that pvp is much more offensive than endless. I’ll admit that.

edgy obsidian
proven flume
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XD u have to bother with t9s cuz u literally own entire countries

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they're fighting for their homes

edgy obsidian
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💀 they’re renting

past rain
cloud magnet
edgy obsidian
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And that’s why I lose areas to GS?

tepid holly
edgy obsidian
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He’s gonna say I might have. Lmfao

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😂😂😂

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I’ll leave discord if he does

cloud magnet
cloud magnet
edgy obsidian
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There aren’t. I use GS on offense. There is not a single thing anyone can do against mine until the nerf. I only use it against summoners, and whoever is unlucky to be next to one.

But no…my build has no problems. It’s a well thought out build 7 months in the making. I have sat down and analyzed every single summon, used my own GS to make sure I know every single move the summons use. I have tested my own GS to make sure I know what gear they would need to run to do “X” damage. I have done everything

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Do I lose areas like I used to? No. But the fact that they can still take them is mind boggling to me. People that have battled for areas with me know how much work I put into those builds

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GS is broken on pvp. Lol. There is literally nothing you can say to defend that. Not even summoners defend that.

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It’s a stall build btw. But many give up after taking 1-2 because it just drags on for too long. Some…like King….insist a bit more

tepid holly
shadow meadow
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  1. how defensive they can be
edgy obsidian
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Oh. And on defense, you should be having no problems with heretics or realms. I can even stop Vesta users on my GS defense build.

tepid holly
edgy obsidian
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You can defend everything else. I’ll play ball for any other topic. Not pvp. 😂 It’s waaaaay beyond busted for pvp

tepid holly
cloud magnet
past rain
tepid holly
cloud magnet
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not sure what ABS is 😂

edgy obsidian
tepid holly
cloud magnet
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Realistically, I do agree that PVP performs well and maybe too well in PVP. I also propose that the defensive AI could be at fault. Let's not dismiss that because of negative feelings towards GS.
But with that said, if the proposed nerf to battalions and protect chance is semented, then the fragile nature of GS will put it at a disadvantage in PVP.. specially that now some spells will bypass battalions, everyone in PVP will have those equipped. GS will have nothing to defend aside from high ward builds which then leads to even more limited build flexibility for GS.

edgy obsidian
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Lack of imagination. I can think of some decent builds. But, I’ll give you that block chance does hurt. But it’s also extremely oppressive. Leaning into it after the nerf will probably be decent still. It will just be much more like second chance if you don’t lean into it.

cloud magnet
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also, with the argument against GS summon builds that in Orna, you aren't supposed to have a single build for every type of encounter, why shouldn't that apply to the defensive side. We can't expect that a single PVP build should defend against everyone. That simply can't happen.

edgy obsidian
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It can shut down basically everything the way it is now

shadow meadow
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its kinda hard to argue with the #1 person on the competetive rankings

edgy obsidian
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👀👀👀👀

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Please say yes

dusky atlas
dusky atlas
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Thank you. I needed that laugh right now.

cloud magnet
tepid holly
edgy obsidian
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He said yes!!! 🎉🎉🎉🎉

cloud magnet
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wait how? how can you give your class multiple builds for PVP?

shadow meadow
dusky atlas
shadow meadow
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if a heretic starts taking his terris

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he switches to his anti heretic build

tepid holly
edgy obsidian
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Bro. There are 6 classes. I have 3 celestials. 10 slots each. I use every single slot for pvp. On all 90. That’s 90 different builds. My heretic alone has 30 different builds. Every single one canceling something different. No. I don’t use one build. I just see who’s attacking and press one button. If I can’t see who’s attacking I use the time and distance between hits to guess the build. I’ve gotten decent at it.

cloud magnet
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yeah that makes sense.. you are reacting to who is attacking you.. fair.. I thought there was somehow another way to have multiple PVP builds active

tepid holly
edgy obsidian
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Stopping a GS is next to impossible. Slowing them down is

tepid holly
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They don't even slip on tears when you cry over your phone.

dusky atlas
tepid holly
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Y..you do?

dusky atlas
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I'm slow, okay?

tepid holly
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Me, too. I don't even know myself. Tell me who I am.

dusky atlas
tepid holly
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I'm you?!

dusky atlas
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Don't tell anyone.

edgy obsidian
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All I’m saying is work your brain. Orna is a great game. So many different stuff to mix and match. Possibilities are endless

tepid holly
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And let's not forget this gem

7fg6uk.png
edgy obsidian
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Damn. Everyone saved that.

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I do love that meme.

tepid holly
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I love it, too. But you'll always be Starless to me.

edgy obsidian
cloud magnet
edgy obsidian
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Only for 15k more areas. I won’t give a damn after 😂😂😂

shadow meadow
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is that 100k

tepid holly
dusky atlas
edgy obsidian
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15k for Duke 10

dusky atlas
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This is getting way off the topic of how GS doesn't need any buffs to raid speed, though.

shadow meadow
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ah thought it was 100k concurrent

edgy obsidian
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Yeah. We still need to figure out the best way to cripple GS

dusky atlas
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Someone did give a suggestion I could get behind. Leave Battalions as it is, but if the summons block for you in pvp, they just die.

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The summon that is.

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Or, make it a lifelink deal. Summoner takes a % of damage the summon takes.

edgy obsidian
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Summons take zero damage lol

shadow meadow
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make them share a life pool, 10% of summons hp and 100% of summoners hp, all shared

tepid holly
shadow meadow
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if they dont cc lock with time mage and her dispelling herself

dusky atlas
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Effectively 0 when stupid AHydra has 240k+ hp.

edgy obsidian
#

QC Ultima anyone? 👀👀👀👀👀

shadow meadow
#

every pvp match you get a random class

tepid holly
odd sedge
#

Damn, pet users would kill for a 7 min amorri

edgy obsidian
odd sedge
#

Its so hard to resist ranting whenever i see a GS ask for a buff, its an absolute abomination

edgy obsidian
odd sedge
#

Delete it from the game, thats my suggestion 🤣

edgy obsidian
#

That’s my bae😍😂😂😂

odd sedge
#

I can even beat it easily in pvp now but I just cant use pets lol i gotta be some bootleg ass gilga build

#

Id talk about pvp more, but the op was about raiding

edgy obsidian
#

Yeah. Raiding is slow. But…how much faster is beo?

odd sedge
#

bruh

#

you ever see a cactus hit amorris dc

edgy obsidian
#

No. But I can imagine. 😂😂 With that DC up and at 25% hp. Yeah….

odd sedge
#

my alt pink noise is like asc 48 beo, it takes so fn long dude

past rain
#

Beo raiding is awful

#

They need fixing too

odd sedge
#

I dont even use pets now

past rain
#

That moment when the follower/summon classes best builds aren't even the summons and pets.

odd sedge
#

Exactly lol

past rain
#

It's fucking sad.

odd sedge
#

But dude the difference is

#

to even get my raid done i have to pay SO much attention

#

if youre a gs you can press db for 7 mins

#

and do absolutely nothing

#

or just use spells

past rain
#

I wish I could DB

odd sedge
#

seen a beo tank use spells?

#

bruh

#

pew pew 20k damage

past rain
#

Rhada Pact loses buffs so fast on summons I have to basically rotate 3 temp buffs to keep something half consistent xD

odd sedge
#

the only reason I responded is cause I saw him claim gs was the slowest raiding in the game hahaha

past rain
#

But yeah Beo follower builds are rough af

odd sedge
#

Yeah and I get why theyre boosting the Beowulf itself cause i think if they buffed the pets too hard itd be another gs in pvp situation

#

so yall better learn to do damage with the pet cause its the only viable way going forward, thats my opinion 😄

past rain
#

Am trying. Can only crank out so much

#

LOL

odd sedge
#

whats your ascension?

past rain
#

25

odd sedge
#

so I can guess your damage output

#

ah yes.... lol

#

how you liking them 0s

past rain
#

LOL

#

On Beo I don't have any ALs but Fey Cactus was fairly nice with follower stat spam

#

But stars align kind of situation on GS is generally around 1.5mill in one turn

#

Otherwise it varies really heavily

#

There's a break down on the pins

edgy obsidian
#

I hate that breakdown. It’s so extra lol

past rain
#

lmao

odd sedge
#

This games kinda wild right now though, avoiding pvp to help preserve sanity

past rain
#

Honestly there's days where I just stayed off of orna/orna discord outside of Gaunts, wars, and the chores

#

Cuz maaaaaaaan it's a shitshow through in through out

odd sedge
#

I think its just cause every man and his damn dog is gs now and its really fn old lmao

past rain
#

HoA is that pretty much

odd sedge
#

and crit builds are so boring too

#

i miss the fun build days lol

past rain
#

Yeah well 100% crit means no crit

odd sedge
#

one of my friends heretic al 50 losing fucking arenas to a t9 summoner bro

#

like that aint right

past rain
#

Arenas?

#

Are you sure?

odd sedge
#

areas*

past rain
#

Bro that doesn't mean much

odd sedge
#

hello

#

lol

past rain
#

Remember the days you'd lose territories to T4s because they figured out how to sleep and poison dart you to death?

odd sedge
#

lmao

#

okay okay, fair enough

past rain
#

I lived and breathed by that early on

#

That was fun.

odd sedge
#

You're right lol

tepid holly
edgy obsidian
#

Yeah. I miss builds too. So many aren’t viable anymore. It’s all Crit Crit Crit. GS GS GS. Hydrus this Hydrus that.

#

🤢 Only like 4 good builds and the rest much worse

past rain
#

Starstruck ended up being a bust

#

2-4 turns of wait, one tick, poof

tepid holly
odd sedge
proven blaze
#

wont deny that GS pvp is very broken atm, but summon build raiding is an entirely different beast. Pretty sure it's even slower than beo follower raiding

shadow meadow
#

a morri takes me 7-8 min on beoA

#

w/o consumable spam

#

on a safe build that had 100% success

proven blaze
#

thats better than GS then

#

GS doesnt have 100% success with the build I used to get 7 minutes

#

one CDG or raid ult and you ded

#

with a safe build it's probably closer to 10 minutes

shadow meadow
#

i just used a 20% ward regen celestial axe

#

with ~140kish ward

#

that being said, i havent reached floor 350 on beoA yet, with full defensive gear

#

but at least i kill amorri a minute faster 🥲

proven blaze
#

thats the problem atm, the class is too good at some things and then garbage at other things

#

57k ward on the summon stat build mimic

Screenshot_20230502-085701_Orna.png Screenshot_20230502-085650_Orna.png
shadow meadow
#

isnt it below average at one thing, turbo ultra broken at some

#

and average-ish at some

proven blaze
#

GS is meme tier for any sort of higher level horde content or party play

#

thats why I have some AL in heretic

fringe kestrel
#

insanely good for pvp and endless, really bad for horde and raids

shadow meadow
#

my class too

#

🫂

#

its not fast at towers but iirc the success rate of clearing them is much higher than many classes

#

isnt it?

fringe kestrel
#

probably

#

towers are really safe with gs

proven blaze
#

I would think so but the numbers from NF didnt really show that

#

they showed that all classes had about the same completion rate

#

maybe it's because people wit garbage gear are dragging down the GS completion rates mimic

shadow meadow
#

the defensive options this class has are kinda strong tbh

#

but its rng, like a mystic feathers

#

potentially turbo busted but then you get hit twice in a row

proven blaze
#

I wouldnt recommend the max protect build in towers

#

tried that once, then rng failed me and I still died

#

I just go with high def gear

scarlet gate
proven blaze
#

the protect chance is going to get halved in the beta, that should at least make it easier to kill the GS itself

scarlet gate
#

Yep i know thats gona happen

#

But hes complaining about know...

neon trench
past rain
#

Beo follower build can get high numbers in a fully offensive build

shadow meadow
#

is that the beta build or live

#

ah, beta

#

kinda weird argument to use a beta balance state that has numbers that are still in flux, getting changed daily

#

with multi zerks on non high tenacity redline class

#

with a 8% chance t.atk++ realmshift 2 proc

proven blaze
#

I still think beo pet builds beat summon builds tbh

shadow meadow
#

in one part of the game yes

proven blaze
#

the fact that you outspeed me in amorri with a safe build while I have to risk everything only to be 1 minute slower with 20 al more

shadow meadow
#

but using a beta clip is just weird

#

like, our scaling was bugged and we had 200k atk pets earlier today

#

that aint a good argument

proven blaze
#

is it still bugged?

shadow meadow
#

not 200k atk bugged

#

but the numbers got changed multiple times today

proven blaze
#

oh

shadow meadow
#

who knows if that is the final number

#

also use any other pet besides lindworm

#

who is easily our #1 pet

proven blaze
#

its better than fjalar now?

shadow meadow
#

it already is on live

#

on everything that doesnt dispel

#

fight amorri with that build on beta client with dbl zerks mighty_mimic

#

lindworm is a t6 pet, so it has low base atk but high scaling with mark+execution

#

currently our passive scaling our items to the pet is flat atk

#

so lindworm makes great use of it

#

fjalar itself is weaker on beta than on line 👍

#

(the scaling of items is making up for it)

#

this aint about beo raiding speed, but that example is blessed by rng and unfinished beta testing, its like linking a 30sec bloodpact amorri kill that has all rng procs after getting some experimental balance changes for the day

proven blaze
#

30 sec BP amorri kill is impossible but I get your point

shadow meadow
#

thats where the experimental balance changes come in

proven blaze
#

I dont think summon build will get anything tho

#

the controversy is too strong atm

shadow meadow
#

so is the build lmao

#

in everything but raids

proven blaze
#

its really not that good tho

#

slow af in towers, slow in dungeons

#

why do you think I have al in heretic

#

its only kinda good when you use orn gear because your summons obviously dont lose power

shadow meadow
#

you could likely mages pavane dungeons with GS anyways

proven blaze
#

doesnt work

#

already tried it with GS hydrus in beta

#

with a fully charged passive its like 1/4 the damage of heretic

#

and setting up that passive takes too logn

#

even in raids its usually faster to not charge the GSH passive

#

its pretty useless

#

GS is a god tier orn farming class tho I will give it that

past rain
#

The lindwyrm has 15k mag and 13.5k attack on the loadout used in that clip

shadow meadow
#

earlier today it had 200k

#

those numbers mean nothing until live

past rain
#

But that was kind of the point I was aiming to make. All the cards on the table, offense is rewarded

shadow meadow
#

but yes, we have options to scale our damage now

proven blaze
past rain
#

And if beo follower is seeing these changes, why isn't summon focused damage being looked at

shadow meadow
#

we fightin hard for it

past rain
#

Keep up the good fight my dude

shadow meadow
past rain
#

I'm super hyped if stuff like this stays for Beo A

shadow meadow
#

there are some great things, but many thinks still need work

#

like we have an option that some pet families get skills added

proven blaze
#

this thread was also an attempt at fighting for summon raiding builds but this thread got a crapton of downvotes 😂

shadow meadow
#

but most of these skills are very weak atm

#

i think that fight is something you need to delay until the next balance patch

past rain
#

Been fighting for this since GS's release

#

Should have been happening this balance patch

shadow meadow
#

our undead pets can spam summon some skeleton dudes

#

like 100 hp 20 dmg skeletons

#

basically meatshields

proven blaze
#

what undead pets are there

#

VSS and cant think of anything else

shadow meadow
#

very scary skeleton being the strongest

#

but also onryo

#

the ghosts and banshee's are considered undead

past rain
#

That's amazing

proven blaze
#

I do really like the idea of bestial bonds

#

GSA only has smartAI so far

#

hydrus got something cool at least

shadow meadow
#

we got some ai upgrades as well

#

pets dont use stuff that gets immune'd

#

i think you guys have that too, right

past rain
#

Nope kek

proven blaze
#

yeah, except it doesnt work on jinn for whatever reason

past rain
#

Yeah that

shadow meadow
#

the 1.5x player stats at redline

#

is so nice

#

we always redlined for pet dmg but the player got nothing

#

bonds have nice options for future events which is something i really love the idea of

#

they are "families" but if a event introduces a new family

#

instead of fitting them into old ones

#

you could have a signature skill unlock at bond 3, for the main pet using classes

#

very special pets, like Ymir from the draconic era, could also get a personal, unique to it, bond

#

so the pet is useable for everybody, but its main offensive power is locked behind bond3

past rain
#

That super dope

shadow meadow
#

the potential is great

#

the greatest thing for me, who was very active in the feedback thread

#

is that things i suggested actually appeared in the game

#

thats just cool

#

like this whole "level 3 bonds unlocks a skill" is something i came up with and then pushed for, people enjoyed the idea and suddenly we had a bond draft in the game and the pets had skills unlocked

jade tusk
#

Alrigth how would you guys make Summon focused gs work? New Summons specialised In support? Scaling? Gear that buffs your Summons instead of you? (not rng)

thorn cargo
#

Reviving this thing.rip
We've enjoyed 10 Arisen Waygates since the last reply here, and each damn time, is it a pain to get through.

If the signature mechanic of a class' calls to not have a gap as large as this one when compared to other classes' mode of damage (physical, magical, follower-based) is met with "just change classes/use Ultima", then what kind of development are we even supposed to have?

#

Reiterating my OL comment here; if 'Summoner is the youngest class', then why are feedbacks to make it mature with respect to its peers disregarded and ignored because there are existing, better options? Why even have a unique mechanic if the surrounding mindset for it is the aforementioned?

cloud magnet
#

I think summoner presents a problem for NF at a deeper level because the game mechanics cannot support summoner playstyle when it has PVP.
So we end up with band-aid solutions like splitting PVP/PVE stats and all the buffs other classes got at the expense of GS which has been nerfed directly and indirectly.

If GS is to be fixed, Orna itself would need work to allow GS to exist on the same level as other classes. However, I don't think NF are willing to go back to the drawing board on this one because they perceive the classline as less important. And why wouldn't they if they take their feedback from the seasoned players who have invested a lot of time in classes other than GS and they have all the incentive to keep GS down.

#

Studio's response to GS feedback has been unsatisfactory and borderline insulting to everyone who has invested time in this class. GS mains have raised a ton of issues with the class since day 1 and very few have been addressed.

#

We still cannot codex with our summons. We still don't have a UI in the game where we can see what our summons can do unlike pet classes. We still have to pray to RNG for every little GS mechanic. End game is mind-numbingly slow for GS. AWs feel like crap when you have people doing a ton of damage with ease while GS is still setting up before reaching less than mediocre damage numbers.

#

And no, "Change Class" is not a solution. NF must remember that the majority of Orna players are NOT on this discord. They are casual players. Casual players won't be retained if the game presents them with lots of friction in daily activities they must take.

thorn cargo
#

#1135760835000684564 message

cloud magnet
#

I asked Odie directly about on reddit and discord... was ignored both times 🤣

thorn cargo
thorn cargo
# cloud magnet Studio's response to GS feedback has been unsatisfactory and borderline insultin...

During the Celestial's release, long-standing players such as Fux were leaning against releasing a GS celestial alongside the older classes since the former's very recently released at the time.

What went on after resulted in celestial variants for GS that had and still has a lot of chinks during the whole ordeal where it was forcibly founded on the same ground as the others despite it not fully coming onto its own, and we were supposed to treat it that way.

Come numerous patches later, a "balance patch", and some more challenges to the present day, and when calls for it to be "equal" to its peer classes, solutions of switching classes/skills of other classes are thrown your way.

"Insulting/frustrating" is a massive understatement.

#

This class' celestials were made to stand on the same ground, why is it suddenly so unreasonable to ask for balances towards the better with regards to its own mechanic and identity when you yourselves did it like this despite all the feedbacks since Towers? @earnest notch

#

To ask to be treated on the same field and progress as the other classes

azure torrent
#

So in the spirit of this thread your point is that the signature summoning of the summoner in terms of raiding is inferior to e.g. Ultima, BP or other classes.
You fear that at one point in the lategame you'll hit a wall and that's due to the balancing issues with PvP/AI and the t7 to early t10 summoner.

Furthermore you're not satisfied with the way your feedback is handled especially in regards to the celestial variants.

#

What do you think about GS as a whole including its BP and Ultima potential Ascensions in mind?

past rain
# azure torrent What do you think about GS as a whole including its BP and Ultima potential Asce...

So, I think one thing that isn't mentioned enough is that GS has some good things going for it. Endless, towers, gauntlets/grinding in general. This is regardless of build. We are on the same field and progress as others. There are multiple AL100+ GSes out there. There are constant records being pushed due to GS's functionality. This means the class is working. This may be a hot take but I feel summoner, as a whole, functions on that same level. To say otherwise I feel is disregarding a lot.

That being said. We are still struggling with painpoints:

  • The uniqueness of the class is underperforming compared to more meta playstyles. BP, to me, has always felt like discount heretic. You just take longer to one shot everything.
  • The reliance on Ultima and Chained Shield is not a class issue. Other classes are doing this too. The problem is when you have the pact celestial outshined by ultima, and the summon-focused celestial outshined by chained shield. What is the point in playing either?
  • The reason why BP does so well is because all of the tools are there, and you can reach the big number solutions in multiple ways, even outside of the class with Beither staff or duo raiding. If Rhada Pact focused summoners had the same level of many ways to success, I do not believe there would be as many issues. A full offense AL40ish rhada summoner is out performed by AL0 full offense builds from other classes unless they rely on a fomo gear-locked summon Spiritgarm and even then this is RNG heavy. Basics such as reliable and quick access to atk/mag 1 and 2 is one of the ways to allow for summons as a whole to shine.

If we simply just had more tools and a bit of a bump for raiding, I personally would be satisfied with the rest of the flaws. No class is meant to be perfect.

azure torrent
#

No class is meant to be perfect.
To tie in with it when lifting summon raiding up to make it on par with anyone else ad optimum it looks like summon based styles would be the real deal. Good in early game at any content, a bit slower but good at any content in lategame.
What would you take away to balance this out? To make it imperfect.

past rain
#

If something as basic as atk/mag 1&2 being reliable and quick to apply? Nothing. We already have our major downside and that is the pacing of set up. Taking the time for that su and du will mean a longer set up but a overall quicker resolution in raids. Otherwise our summons are already a mixed bag. 3-4 turns on heavy hitters like ancient dragon. Low HP with self damage and self negative status from spiritgarm. Buggane lacks the penetration power for stronger raids. AGG is locked behind the RNG of an event locked item.

Adding atk/mag 1&2 only benefits raiding, maybe PvP being easier for offense but we already have our toll paid thanks to multiple items in the game flat out nullifying any dream of summon damage offense being real.

Anything more than that I would agree something must be given. I'd be willing to even give up the auriga passive, or taking a small hit to class/spec summon stats. But just for atk/mag? No. I don't see why something must be sacrificed to be at the same level as everyone else but slower.

azure torrent
#

I'm not only talking about reliable mag/att ups but about a drastic adjustment that would let the summons in sum dish out dmg equal to that of other classes per round.

On a side note i had a vision of a statwise bulked up GSA without Battalions but a passive enabling summons to do just that.

tropic verge
# past rain So, I think one thing that isn't mentioned enough is that GS has some good thing...

I agree with this take.

Certainly summoner does well in some pve areas. Raiding (with summon damage) is really bad, the worst in the game by a fair margin, but heretic-esque builds exist so people can save their ascensions I guess.

The gameplay is certainly unique. Setting up dungeons (endless or just normal/hordes) is very different in that you summon your stuff and there's minimal buffs and focus on defense/statuses. Unlike all the other classes which buff -> sweeping. I wish there were more viable builds but I feel the same way about every class.

(Speaking of...) Ultima/CS are indeed a problem for everyone. ✅
The centralization of the endgame onto those skills is miserable.

past rain
#

As if you're going to those levels of offense, those builds tend to be lacking on defense/survival

azure torrent
#

You still have 6 entities on the field for the AI to choose from

past rain
#

True. But with more and more raids using multitarget and full aoes from the newer content, this isn't as reliable

#

Pumpkinless was a true challenge

#

Lycnus is dangerous as hell

#

If more content was set up like this, summoners would not be able to hide behind AI flaws and I personally believe this to be a very good thing.

azure torrent
#

But Battalions wouldn't protect you from those either

past rain
#

Yeah. Idk then. When you can one shot something to a ridiculous degree, nothing else seems like a real downside save for accuracy, pacing, or survability

past rain
#

@azure torrent I thought more on this. I think I have it. Similar to Gilga's "armor stances. Gauntlets and stuff. You turn it on? Your summons gain damage, but you are under the effects of target su. Turn on the second one to add even more damage? You are now under the effects of target du.

No AI abuse, battalions might still help, and I'd assume the implimentation of these stance buffs would require an item or something that barfs on ward turtles.

#

It takes away the AI shield. I'd argue giving up battalions as well would be the way to go.

azure torrent
#

Personally i think the concept of stances really would help summoner to interact with the summons and strategize around certain situations.
Raid Ultimate incoming? Protect stance, debuff summons attacks but increases protect chance.
All buffs applied? Offense stance, Battalions is off but attacks deal increased dmg
etc.

past rain
#

Agreed. Call it rituals or something

#

Whatever the elysium fluff is

azure torrent
#

However how to make it a GSA thus summon style only thing?

#

Cuz i feel it should be like an GSA identity thing

past rain
#

I'll do you one better: Make it a benefactor thing.

#

If these are skills tailored to a playstyle, specs are more playstyle influencing and keeps certain skills to certain loadouts

azure torrent
#

Do you think? Could be an opportunity to further separate GSA from base GS.

past rain
#

So the issue is if we want to make it GSA only, it would have to be a passive. Otherwise you unlock it, gain the skill, go do your thing. Also if it is a passive, you can't turn it off and this would hamper build versatility. My goal here is Rhada Summoner. Rhada summoner is no longer just the summoner class line. Nekro and druid can summon, followers have access to good summons. We're even seeing comparable numbers from that BeoA build that's going around. I don't disagree that GSA could use some identity, but the "summon stances" wouldn't be the way imo.

If we wanted to have the stances I feel it would be best to have two offensive ones and one defensive one.

Benefactor gets summon dmg up, target du as apart of the stance.
GSA gets summon dmg up 2, that stacks with benefactors, but completely negates battalions.

As for the defensive one, idk. Having debuff summon attacks but increase protect sounds like a fire and forget summon stance for non summon builds

azure torrent
#

Agreed that when thinking about summons on all classes it should be on Benefactor👍
GSAs own thing keeps me personally thinking still.

past rain
#

Yeeee. No disagreements there. Imo follower slot summon on GSA is my preference

azure torrent
#

However let's keep focusing on those stances as they'd be on Bene as i think that's the way.

Ritual of Power

  • you gain Target du
  • your summons deal 50% more dmg
    (In terms of t9 Summoner with Bene it's a slight 8% dmg nerf but for a t10GSA it's like a 10% dmg buff, without gear, opposed to Bene now)

Ritual of Certainty

  • you gain Dmgdd
  • your summons will protect you way more often (like 2 Eos Shoulders higher chance?)
#

Figured that not using the offensive stance would already be a hit to summon dmg so them dealing less with the defensive stance would be overkill imo.

azure torrent
#

So all in all

Benefactor v.2
Stats

  • -10% def/res (scrap the HP malus, lower def/res malus, stances have inherited downsides)
  • +20% summon stats (a little something cuz Rituals are skills learned at certain lvls)

Skills

  • Ritual of Certainty at lvl 210
  • Summon Ancient Jinn at lvl 220
  • Ritual of Power at lvl 225

Abilities

  • The Benefactor: Your summons will occasionally take one less turn to cast but your pacts are much less powerful.
past rain
past rain
#

Or are you saying 150 instead of 130?

#

Because if so, hard disagree.

#

You know what I just realized something.

#

This will be a new multiplier and thus that damage stance will buff endless

#

That's a likely nope

azure torrent
#

No only one Ritual can be held at once. No i lower flat summon stats by 110%.
Rn bene is 130% summon stats, so at t9 a 58% dmg bonus and for a t10 GSA a 41% dmg bonus. Thus the 50% on the stance to slightly nerf early and buff lategame.
The Ritual will buff endless dmgwise for this 10% but Bene snapshot will be nerfed in general.

past rain
#

I mean it's a good step, gear will look more appealing

#

With this and that atk/mag stuff this is solid enough for me. Clarify that drop in summon stats for your notes eitherwise gonna be confusing imo

azure torrent
#

It's scrapped from the Benefactor ability already.

#

It was in the flavour text.

past rain
#

Ohhhh

#

That works

#

No summon stats whatsoever, add the 20% to GSA mimic

azure torrent
#

Possible but 20% is like 10% dmg for t9, less than a charmer single buff which is good. Maybe 30% would be better idk since the ritual is learned near t10.

past rain
#

I'd say swap the rituals

#

Having the defense one early t9 will encourage a lack of protective gear

azure torrent
#

But them dealing much more dmg than the other classes was one early t9 concern.

past rain
#

Yes but it was without investment

#

This is now requiring investment. You want that bonus damage? You'd better be ready to get hit

azure torrent
#

Hummm forcing them to gear accordingly

#

Okay

past rain
#

Mhm. You're already taking a lot away by removing 110+ summon stats. Battalions may result in squishy summon deaths, for example

azure torrent
#

Maybe an opportunity to fix LifePact on Bene

#

I mean the HP malus would be gone, the pact malus still persists. What to do🤔

past rain
#

Is there a way to increase the costs of those pacts?

#

Blood/life pact 3 but uses 60% hp instead of 30%?

azure torrent
#

'Pact costs are doubled'?

past rain
#

Well, kind of. Might actually make this even crazier. Instead of mana saver, make a life saver thingy and double all health costs of abilities

#

Meaning stuff like forbidden art too

azure torrent
#

Best case it's easy to implement.

past rain
#

Mhm

#

It wouldn't exactly nerf blood pact per say

#

But you would want blood pact usage from other specs anyway like seq

#

Which already has that amplified cost factor when the double cast triggers

#

You could also just do -50% atk/mag lol

azure torrent
#

Dmg double down is in the game.

#

So no sweat

past rain
#

No I'm talking the malus stats

azure torrent
#

Oh yea

#

Yea fk res/def malus

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Nuke mag

past rain
#

Be pre-serum steve rodgers and just take what you can't dish back

azure torrent
#

Hummm but only base stats tho. Wouldn't work as good for high gear/asc folks

past rain
#

Yeah but all in all wouldn't that not be an issue? Life pact for rhada summon is a huge deal

azure torrent
#

It is

past rain
#

And you're generally not blood pacting with benefactor.

#

Even with the changes

#

It keeps the nerf in for uninvested summoners

#

(This also nerfs celestial axe GSA if I want to life pact)

azure torrent
#

K what about adding the 0.5x base mag malus and adjusting the pact malus toooo 0.8x instead of 0.5x. HP malus is gone, so a slight LP buff there too.

past rain
#

That could work

#

(Also wtb more GS to discuss)

azure torrent
#

So all in all

Benefactor v.2.1
Stats

  • -50% mag
  • +25% summon stats (at t9 a ~10% dmg increase)

Skills

Ritual of Power at lvl 215

  • you gain Target du
  • your summons deal 50% more dmg

Summon Arisen Jinn at lvl220

Ritual of Certainty at lvl 225

  • you gain Dmgdd
  • your summons will protect you way more often (30%)

Only one Ritual can be held at once.

Abilities

  • The Benefactor: Your summons will occasionally take one less turn to cast but your pacts are slightly (0.8x) less powerful.
past rain
#

Perfect

azure torrent
#

Thinking about it it would be an endless buff nevertheless, when gear bonusses and ascensions come into play.
The flat summon stat bonus should go, the access level to Ritual of Power lowered to lvl200 to compensate.

What about maintaining Rituals costs health per turn? That's always a neckbreaker for GS endless.

past rain
#

I'd say no. Higher ascension players will feel the lack of summon stats from benefactor the hardest either way and those tend to be the deep divers

azure torrent
#

I mean to add a little math
Currently it's
(100% + 200% + 130% + 177%)* (1+50/100) so 910,5 stats at Asc50 with max summon stat gear.

With the new it'd be
(100% + 200% + 25% + 177%)* (1+50/100) so 753 in stats but 1.5x dmg cuz Ritual so 1129,5 when talking in summon stats.

That's a 24% increase at Asc 50. It should always be a 24% increase no matter the Asc.

azure torrent
#

W/o summon stat gear it's a 13.3% increase.
Scrapping the 25% on new Bene would result in a 5% increase w/o and a 18% increase with gear.

past rain
#

Got'cha. I forgot buffs come after.

#

How about mana drain instead of health drain?

azure torrent
#

Maybe, but given the large mana pool and the nuts we have, would that hurt that much?

past rain
#

Nuts are gear investment. If it's a %based mana cost, that pool will be disruptive for things like endless but manageable for things like raiding

azure torrent
#

In the end gear could counter one or another i guess.

#

Imo health would hit a little harder in endless in a summon centric run since you don't leech via dmg.

past rain
#

Fair

azure torrent
#

Ima sleep about this, have a good one🍻

past rain
#

Gniters!

scenic dove
#

Not that I'm against endless summoner power getting a bit tamer. But I imagine the consequences would be much bigger than "tame"

azure torrent
azure torrent
#

So you see this as an issue and if so how would you solve it?
One could ramp up the Ritual's multiplier, balancing pen and the lack of HP with raw damage. The higher the multiplier the more important would gear stats become.

azure torrent
#

Or scrap Rituals and go the passive stat screen way like e.g.
'On Benefactor summon stats from gear are doubled.'
or
'On Benefactor all summon stats get a 1.3x multiplier.'

white briar
#

Issue is that the power level of a naked gsa bene is pretty close to the power level of a full summon stats gsa bene.

Get rid of benefactor and find a way to make its unique usefulness baked into other things.

Nerf base summon stats horribly. Gs shouldn't start so high.

Buff the crap out of summon stats gear.

Gsa can now go charmer and buff its summons and gains an appropriate amount of power from summon stats.

azure torrent
white briar
#

Yeah tbh I think bene is the crux of the issue. It just shouldn't exist. We can't buff our summons because bene is so good and summon stats are so much more relatively worse because bene exists.

#

In a balanced world with no bene, you're raiding, charmer. You're doing casual content? Assassin. You're doing something hard and low gear? Cataphract. Now gs isn't tied to a single spec. Maybe chrono becomes useful.

past rain
#

I'd be all for swapping Benefactor around. Given that the majority of the issues sort of steam from being locked into it if you're rhada pact. GS and GSA stats are fine imo or at least not a problem that needs solving now. Otherwise saying that GS as a whole is locked to Benefactor is...disregarding a lot of things.

azure torrent
#

In my daily rotation i have implemented
Benefactor, Sequenzer, Bard, Disciple of Finesse all as GS.
Imo a summon centric Spec is good however not as powerful without investment.
Take swash/BoF for example. Alone it's kinda meh but when geared around it's a whole playstyle on its own.

white briar
#

I just think, we complain about not being able to buff our summons, but we have a spec that let's us do just that. It's just invalidated by the sheer baseline power of benefactor. The existence of benefactor and the high base summon stats, low gear summon stats is the general source of summon based gameplays problems.

#

Get rid of bene and add a summon/follower stat multiplier to charmer

#

Summon stats gear should likely be holistically reviewed as well. It's insane that a beo gets 1% relative follower power per 1% stat as an ungeared beo but a gsa bene gets ~0.2%

#

Eggberts comment about the pact staff was bang on.

white briar
past rain
#

Pushing the sole method of summon base stats to gear is absolutely not the right answer. This heavily limits what the summoner can build. I would be more agreeable to other forms of stat calculation before being locked to certain pieces of gear that so far have been suicide to wear outside of snapshops

white briar
#

Right, I'm saying, rebalance.

azure torrent
#

You're running in open doors. Hellmo and i are well aware of those problems concering summon stats.
Bene as is is a problem, thus looking for a change is reasonable.
Where we disagree is that a summon based (not a summon stat based) spec is uneccessary.

white briar
#

Yeah I feel like I'm only disagreeing with you because I think the charmer spec already fills that niche

#

We could rework benefactor all we want, if we don't also give it the ability to buff summons or somehow add multipliers were in the same boat. Charmer already has that.

azure torrent
#

With charmer the setup becomes very long, buffing up 6 individuals ain't fun and summoner already has a setup problem.
That's the main reason against it imo.
We're looking for a turn efficient way to apply buffs.

Also you'd need to shift the power that Bene gives atm to match the power summons have rn.
Things like Phaethon, Cernn would become useless and would need to be tweaked.
Imo reworking Bene is much more cost benefit efficient than relying on Charmer and reworking everything else.

white briar
#

Good argument. Just fear doing something like ritual exacerbates the gs endless issue. Is target ^^ a perm buff now? Can I just wait it out or pop over to charmer and keep appease up to counteract it and now I have even more power for endless?

#

I still spend 900 floors buffing, but that's just a new 1.5x multiplier I get

azure torrent
#

It'd be a permanent target^^ as long as the Ritual is active.
Also like John mentioned #1101026806489939968 message it'd be a endless nerf at first, because with 105% less summon stats you loose like 20% overall base summon stats meaning HP, def, res, mag, att, dex and for endless most important penetration opposed to the 24% more dmg. In endless pen>dmg.

#

You could only benefit from the dmg increase when building thus investing around it and that's what we want, people to work for their dmg output.

past rain
#

And have that work pay off.

azure torrent
# past rain And have that work pay off.

What do you think about this?
#1101026806489939968 message
With those numbers you'd have less summon stats without gear but more when gearing for it.
I mean it's less interesting that Rituals🤷‍♂️

past rain
#

However I agree. Less interesting than rituals.

azure torrent
#

Yes 390% w/o gear but 620,1% with max gear opposed to the current 607% with max gear.

azure torrent
#

So ima suggest #1101026806489939968 message
as is due to pen decrease being enough of a penalty in endless

azure torrent
#

#💡│suggestions message

scenic dove
#

I'm still a believer of the Bonded Stats suggestion.
The rituals are cool, the reduction of benefactor base stats is warranted, and I feel like summoners themselves should have less base summon stats.

As a counterbalance, they'd have a beo-esque way to have their summons inherit a portion of their stats, adding versatility to what they should wear in different content.
With less base stats and less benefactor stats, summon stat gear would be more important, moreso if it's multiplicative with the bonded stats. You'd end up with a mix of good statted gear and good summon stats to maximise summon effectiveness.

azure torrent
#

This is by no means the only possible suggestion. Let's get deeper into summon bonds to formulate a fleshed out suggestion for those aswell👍

jade tusk
#

Just To note that if summon stat gets reduced heavily on benefactor ^

#

Thats with Full summon stat^without benefactor

#

This is with +25% stats(the suggested benefactor)

#

Not 100%sure if the math would go like that but its not looking good for the followers if the - 90% stat malus stays

#

This is with current benefactor+full summon stats

Screenshot_20240223_132215_playorna.com.orna.jpg
azure torrent
#

Thanks for the input👍
This is not full summon gear missing out on minimum a eos heart celestial quarterstaff and a t10 charon staff

scenic dove
#

you could give benefactor anti-nonsummoner-debuff

#

aka +90% for non summoners

jade tusk
#

That would help for sure

scenic dove
#

wouldn't break summoners with powercreep, leaves Keith alone for the most part

jade tusk
azure torrent
#

Like 'real' summoners when going full summon stat gear.

jade tusk
#

Battallions ^

azure torrent
#

Target^^
Lowest base stats ig

#

I see that the suggestion does not benefit non summoner summons's defensive potential.
However i'd rather focus on the problem of a whole classline and then move on to the non summoner summoners.
Lowering Benefactors summon stats ain't the problem here.
It's the -90% malus and if i'd have to take this into account when reworking Benefactor it'll not work out because i cannot think of a way to balance out a 617% summon stat gap for everyone.

jade tusk
#

Like i said ^ its not looking good for non summoners if the - 90% malus stays.

#

From gs perspective the suggestion is good imo👍

scenic dove
#

Though, when I say it out loud, maybe it's for the better that buggane takes a chill pill until celestials? He is very dominating in the early summons life

#

But it doesn't feel right

azure torrent
#

Humm i mean staged Bonds are a thing for Beo aswell

scenic dove
#

o

azure torrent
#

BB3 is a t10 thing isn't it?

scenic dove
#

Yeah...?

azure torrent
#

Meaning a dmg enhancing Bond for Buggane wouldn't be necessarily bad if put at the right tier and/or Celestial

scenic dove
#

Though I wasn't exactly thinking Bonds for Summons in the same way that beo has them - no unique nonsense. That's a lot of work for odie, and hard to get right

#

I was just thinking of the Bonded Stat part of it, as a summoner/benefactor/auriga passive

full vector
#

Im not a fan of the lowered summon stats as thats the mains reason i pick benefactor not for the reduced summon time. If anything i feel like this would be a separate spec if you remove the reduced summon time.

scenic dove
#

X% of your stats are sent to your summons, period. Donezo

#

Lowering the stats is the whole point of this discussion though (currently)

#

If you wanted just reduced summon time, go sequencer

full vector
#

It will make things like endless so much worse as you want the maximum stats possible but if that is knocked down a significant amount summoner endless will be downgraded from already a pain to worse.

azure torrent
scenic dove
#

That's no different from levels in passives

#

Shared Power 1, Shared Power 2 and Shared Power 3, or something

azure torrent
#

Yes

azure torrent
scenic dove
#

if willing to take the targetdu

full vector
scenic dove
#

that'd just be too strong though

#

you'd go in, use ritual of summon stats

#

summon

#

then swap to ritual of damage

#

and now you have a damage boost in the order of 100%

azure torrent
#

Also i don't know if that's possible since summon stats are kinda stat screen stats.

scenic dove
#

Btw Kaine

#

just realised, the ritual of certainty would kill Life Pact

azure torrent
#

Yes John

scenic dove
#

Not sure if it's intended

#

but it would

azure torrent
#

How to lower dmg without influencing LP then?

scenic dove
#

You can't

#

other than actually deleting your offensive stats, but that's not something you can do in combat

#

Unless... that buff gives enemies increased defenses?

azure torrent
#

Would gut summon dmg even more.

scenic dove
#

yeeeeah

#

Scratch that I guess

#

You'll live with no life pact lol

#

turn off the ritual when you want to pact

#

Regarding how that change would affect endless, it would undoubtedly be a nerf to summoner endless.
I'm not sure how other classes are doing at endless right now, but I've heard of them being somewhat on par, in terms of orns per hour. Our long setup lets us go deep but it takes very long, whereas they can just go.

#

losing ~35% of hp mag att and somewhat importantly dex is no joke

#

and to get that offense back you'd need to get targetdu

#

which further puts you at risk to just ending your miserable existence

#

and to get the pen back now you definitely need a skeleton

#

but the skeleton is both squisher and less accurate than before

#

and it needs to be on the first slot, otherwise the def and res downs only apply turn 2 onwards

#

which combined with the targetdu, is a death sentence

#

I wouldn't be surprised if such a change to benefactor reduced summoner endless depth by more than a hundred floors

#

maybe a couple hundred.

full vector
#

Wouldnt the new bene be a disadvantage to low al summoners though as to get the damage boost they have to prioritise survivability over summon stats due to the target up and therefore cant put on summon gear and the summons wont be hitting hard at all. However for any high al summoner this wont be an issue due to ascended summons so anyone with al 100 will get the 100% stats anyway and can still wear survival gear

scenic dove
#

The new benefactor is supposed to be worse for lower tiers and lower levels and better for higher ones, to impact how much of a hold t7 through t9 summoners (mainly t9) have on their competition

#

While somewhat enabling summon stats equipment to be more worthwhile. Less upfront power means that comparatively speaking the gear is more powerful.

#

imma hop out, got food to eat, brb

azure torrent
scenic dove
#

You have a twisted mind. I love it

#

That'd work

azure torrent
#

Problem is that once an opponent is e.g. petrified by a certain summon there'd be no downside... on the other hand why use the ritual when the opponent is petrified, you'd go all in with the other ritual...🤔

full vector
#

Im curious would summons do more damage with the current benefactor stat boost of the 50% damage boost

#

In terms of raiding at endgame summoners tend to fall behind as other classes can do more (exception is summoners using blood pact or ultima) but a pure summon focused raid can be much slower. The most I can hit is 1.3 mil using a crit weakness exploit from a arisen spiritgarm garm from a 3 turn move. Would this rework speed that up or would it slow down raiding, because with that damage buff but the increased target rate raiding might be quite slow as you have to prioritise avoiding being hit or if not and go full summon stats the chance is you will probably be one shot the moment you use the ritual

jade tusk
#

They would if you have als and build focused for summon dmg

#

But not if you have basicly 0 als

full vector
#

But only the top rank summoner will have the high al but most im guessing sit around 20-40 up until around rank 1000, which might not be enough to fully get the benefit.

jade tusk
#

I could imagine that Al 40-100 would actually see benefits of that buff

azure torrent
#

The math is here
#1101026806489939968 message

full vector
#

Ok that looks alright its just the fact that summoners are naturally glass cannons most of the time, im just worried that the permanent target up when getting the damage increase will make raiding thoroughly unenjoyable if you keep getting killed early into the raid.

jade tusk
#

I think permanent target is reversed appease

azure torrent
#

When setting old and new in perspective ALs zero out so it's the gear stats that matter the most. The more gear, the more you get, up to 25%.

#

You can end or start the Ritual whenever you want

jade tusk
#

Which would not disable summon protection from proccing

#

Not sure if that was kaines idea, but thats how i see the target^^

full vector
jade tusk
#

Your summons can still protect you

full vector
jade tusk
#

Correct

#

But they said it would be toggle skill

full vector
#

I understand but for fast raiding you ideally would need the ritual active at all times

jade tusk
#

To make it simple= i cast ritual> morri is More likely trying To target me, but even if she does so theres also possibility for battallions proc.

#

With protection gear its basicly free boost

azure torrent
#

AMorri is the top of the food chain and i'd not recommend trying her with summons in one go either way.

full vector
#

But that would mean i would have to raid with the protection axe not the stat quaterstaff so loose significant stats and also magic so even without rituals life pact would only give about 500 health boost so essentially useless

jade tusk
#

Like it should be

azure torrent
#

Mag doesn't influence LP.

full vector
jade tusk
#

Stats dont matter In lp

#

Buffs do

azure torrent
#

HP does

jade tusk
#

Oh its hp?

azure torrent
#

LP draws from your HP and pact multipliers, the more HP and mag.buffs you have the more you heal.

jade tusk
#

Ah yea

azure torrent
#

Thus getting rid of the Bene HP malus

full vector
#

Im worried about the effect on dragon endless. Gazer endless doesnt rely on the bulkiness, but dragon does so a massive drop in stats will be a great hindrance meaning the more straightforward endless method becomes a lot worse, as the dragons will lose something like 100-150k health

jade tusk
#

Gs endless is bit too strong imo and it would be healthy for the future of the class To have this nerf.

full vector
#

Other classes have it a lot easier, the buffing process for gs is more painful

jade tusk
#

Well one part of this whole nerf thing is also eos blessing rework

#

Which would help out In that

azure torrent
jade tusk
#

Yea

#

With the suggested benefactor you could actually do better In endless if you play your cards Well. (protection% ritual)

full vector
#

Would there be a way to scale the summon stat benefit of benefactor with level e.g. you get 100% bonus at 250 50% at 225 and 0% at 200 so it doesnt give early t9 too much of an advantage

jade tusk
#

The huge stack of summon stats is just pure powercreep

#

It would become broken if you would get the 125% summon stat +ritual buffs

full vector
#

Or there was another ritual which gave you access to the stats purely just a flat 100% at 250 but gave you a curse status effect to balance as i believe you can pact that away or cure it.

jade tusk
#

So you do the ritual and get full stats and summon the stronger summons and swap To dmg ritual and be broken?

#

The curse status as malus would be just free stat boost bc immunity

full vector
#

True forgot about curse immunity

past rain
azure torrent
#

Added it👍

white briar
#

Benefactor:
1.x multiplier to summon stats
Removes -90% non summoner malus
Removes summon fail chance
Chance to reduce summon time by 1 turn
Buffs you cast have a high chance of reflecting to your summons
Pacts you cast are significantly reduced
High -atk/-mag stat

Now usable by any class, resolves our buffing issue and hopefully stats issue.

azure torrent
#

That looks a bit overloaded😅
I mean that's nearly the summoner classline's kit and gear in a spec

white briar
#

Summoner kit is Elysian balance, guidelight and battalions with a focus on paired essence

azure torrent
#

I don't consider EB to be a signature part of summoner's kit. Battalions i necessary due to them having low stats. Other classes don't need it to survive.
So yeah thaz Benefactor version is only mising Guidelight to make anyone a summoner so the question comes upm why not just play summoner?

I'd agree with this
Benefactor:
1.x multiplier to summon stats
Removes -90% non summoner (w/o Bene stat bonus malus should be gone for everyone even without the spec)
Removes summon fail chance (there has to be some kind of penalty for not summoning as summoner)
Chance to reduce summon time by 1 turn
Buffs you cast have a high chance of reflecting to your summons (we have gear for that)~~
Pacts you cast are significantly reduced
High -atk/-mag stat

white briar
#

Fail chance is bad design

#

Should be taken out anyway

jade tusk
#

Its not that bad

azure torrent
#

What would your drawback be then?

jade tusk
#

But the stat malus hurts even more

full vector
#

If we go with the new spec could we also up the transfer rate with the autumna gear and ophion banner as they're currently quite low so only really useful transferring gaits and alignments

white briar
jade tusk
#

The fail chance is okay bc you can still just double riftlock and spam summon

#

Autumna is thief gear so it does not transfer anything. Ophion stance could use small buff imo

#

Wintara is the buff transfer gear

azure torrent
#

Or Eos Feet

full vector
jade tusk
#

Couldnt make suggestion, but i got idea of accessory "Jack's ring" = allows one To wear 1 armor/weapon out of their classes preferrences.

#

So basicly with this ring auriga could use zerk torso^

azure torrent
#

There are weapon proficiency amities, could be for gear aswell.
Would turn the game upside down tho😅

jade tusk
#

It would but imo it gives lot of building Possibilities🤔

#

Well maybe the ring could be gear only or smth

stuck vault
# azure torrent So all in all **Benefactor v.2.1** Stats - -50% mag - +25% summon stats (at t9 ...

Repost of my answer in the suggestion section:

Without the proper gear OUTSIDE of events this is a further nerf.
And even if items are available it is a nerf for the survivability: You have to invest in items with summen %+ and go into the +50% stance you are doomed to be hit - loss of survivability.

I see a massive problem in balancing all the items to provide a way to go: have 50% damage AND a proper defense/ward. When I see how the balancing is done currently this takes literally ages.

full vector
#

I think it could be sorted easily with more event gear targeting higher summon stat % scaled to quality. Or old gear has a buff e.g. some gear gaining the summon % effect or buffing existing gear e.g. giving more stats to the ophion gear.

jade tusk
#

Its not healthy desing To have 130% extra stats for free basicly

full vector
#

Not saying that but currently we're very limited to ophion head and torso and rift summoner boots. Weapon we're fine with celestial quaterstaff and charons staff, but either something like a head piece and chestpiece which also give 15% boost or a summon adornment for armour which give summon stats or something else which will benefit the classline, which wouldn't be too farfetched now we have an avidity chance boosting adorn.

azure torrent
white briar
#

Still feel the free summon stats need to come down while maintaining power so that summon stats as is can be more powerful % for %, or the stats on gear needs to go way up. Starting at 430% as gs bene, and even 300% as gs bene 2.0 sans stats is too much for how little stats are given on gear.

#

The blood pact Cele staff is a good comparison. Summon stats Cele staff should give a relative increase in power.

stuck vault
# azure torrent I see the concern. However **if** my math is correct https://discord.com/channel...

I understand. I fear that this is the optimal calculation and the actual implementation will be far worse. While I really enjoy the game I feel a certain disappointment in how balancing challenges are handled.
When looking at your proposal I see a massive problem in the implementation: How would you implement your proposed changes without having a larger power loss until the proper items are farmed?

jade tusk
#

The thing is To nerf the early t10

white briar
#

Early t10 isn't honestly that bad it's t7/8/9

jade tusk
#

T9 is the worts imo

#

7/8 is kinda ok atm

#

Their battallions were nerfed enough In pve To be In A good spot imo

azure torrent
# stuck vault I understand. I fear that this is the optimal calculation and the actual impleme...

power loss until the propper items are farmed
Let's think about this for a bit.
You would have to farm gear to become stronger. Afaik this is how things should go isn't it?
The main concern of the classline is its gear independent dmg output and survivability thus power.
One of the main communicated hints for newer players at t7 is to pick Attuner stick to the classline until early t10, farm orns and gear and move on to your preferred class.
So atm it's a farming class, a stepping stone. However this gear independent strength is exactly the reason why its progression is hindered when actually investing in it. Pre Ultime and BP there is little reason to do so from a cost efficiency standpoint.

#

I don't say the suggestion is perfect but it's there to highlight the need to change Benefactor and to introduce concepts like

  • Rituals
  • multipliers instead of raw summon stats
    since no other spec gives its user a flat 50% power boost besides maybe Swash but that comes at a very high cost if not a completely new playstyle

I'd love to hear your thoughts about how to either improve the suggested changes or to come up with another idea that reduces the frontloaded gear independent power of the classline and gives it the opportunity to actually improve by farming appropriate gear🙂

thorn cargo
stuck vault
# azure torrent > power loss until the propper items are farmed Let's think about this for a bit...

ad farming gear: Of course is Orna all about farming gear and it is things should go but that was not my point: In this case, you change the power outlet of a class immediately. To compensate a transition phase for all players is needed, consisting of Farming the new items, finding Legendaries/Ornate, Level them up, Godforge them, etc pp.
Your argument is made from a point of view where all those items already existed for a long time. Furthermore too many summoner items are locked behind events, making them unavailable at the time of the switch. This needs to be considered. It is not that I disagree with your proposal, but I am challenging it and bringing up concerns I see.

ad rituals:
The idea with the ritual is good, BUT you loose another turn. Summoners already need SO many turns to get their damage output ready, that ANOTHER turn needs to be compensated somehow.
The rituals itself tackle heavely with the survival: Target ^^ and Protect chance. I would not bring in another calculation factor with target ^^ - this is another layer of complexity and non-survival. It is also against the initial attempt to bring down the missing invest of the class. Also, why the difference between Summon stats +% and Attack Damage +%? The missing Summon Stats will hurt more (also in terms of turn management, just look at the HPs of the Spiritgarm)

(to be continued, I have to work now :-))

stuck vault
azure torrent
# stuck vault ad farming gear: Of course is Orna all about farming gear and it is things shoul...

It'd change the power outlet of the Spec for sure.
The class should work without it and if not it needs to be adressed aswell.
Entering t9 it still is an upgrade to existing t7 classes thus adding effortless improvement.

Agreed that a turn loss is not ideal.
We chose Targetdu over smth like Battalionsdd to keep non summoner classes included. Keep in mind that even with the debuff Battalions is still active and the AI has multiple targets to choose from.
Agreed with it being more complex. I'm open for different downsides like HP/MP loss per turn as upkeep cost. The idea is to add a high risk, high reward situation.

I'm not aware of any previous iterations of a summon/follower stat change during a battle thus a Dmgdu. However to compensate the HP loss it could be changed to an Alldu

I'm thankful for your critique since it helps to flesh out the suggestion👍

stuck vault
# azure torrent It'd change the power outlet of the *Spec* for sure. The class should work with...

regarding Target ^^:
This does alter the AI's decision which of the opponents pack to attack - so the summoner is more likely to be targeted. Why did you include this drawback?
I see that if you have stances you must distinguish between them, and the common ground on that is to add next the positive a negative attribute so the players needs to decide what to use when. Seeing the Summoner as a very fragile classe (hp-wise) where the pets are the main line of defense it is harsh to implement this. It hurts the summoner far more then the non-summoners, especially when this can be only mitigated by using different pieces of equipment which could impact the damage output negativly. Yes, this is also common practice in other classes, but it is again another compromise this class has to tackle with.

To sum it up: Target^^ seems to point to non-summoners but hits summoners the most. Mitigation through equipment gets more and more complex and is not controllable (== depends on NF's implementation), resulting in further damage decreases.

past rain
#

Because at the end of the day, Summoners are still the ones to benefit from something like this more commonly than non-summoner classes until some changes happen that opens up summons to everyone else without loopholes.

#

Where as non-summon summoners would actually use the benefit of this and keep their weaker summons in the field, granting them an actual buff for that playstyle due to their limited access to the playstyle

azure torrent
# stuck vault regarding Target ^^: This does alter the AI's decision which of the opponents p...

The basic idea is that like you said a positive is paired with a negative.
You do more dmg but are at a higher risk to be hit and a lower risk to be hit but you will do less dmg.
You want relative risk free dmg so go build tanky and prepate to be hit.
You want your summons to go ham, well now you're a glascannon.
(Note the HP, def/res malus gone on Bene to compensate a bit.)

The dmg potential without summon stat gear like i said should be the same as old Bene but now you're rewarded for taking the risk of using summon stat gear.
Also you don't need to use the Ritual. You can always switch to the safer one and back once stitched up.

What other downside do you have in mind for a high risk, high reward approach?

full vector
#

Im beginning to warm up to the idea but 2 things i think would male it more accepted between people who want summon stats and those that want the rituals. The main concern i think not about damage output per say as that cam be increased if the phaeton is buffed but more about summon health. I think most (in guessing) would feel safer seeing their dragons or hydras with 300k health instead of 200k if bene is reworked, hence suggestion one. If possible make it so benefactor gives a small summon stat bonus e.g. all stats, like the propsed 25% but all gives an extra bonus purely to summon health, so that they feel more reassuring to work with. Second is the gear. The gear udea to scale the stat bonuses to quality is a long needed feature, but i feel there are 3 main concerns. As it is now the gear doesn't really give a big enough bonus to be really worthwhile. So i propose that the % when ornate is slightly higher e.g 20% as that is better than 10/15% that we get but not too outrageous. Also make it so that the gear isnt made out of extremely difficult to farm materials, e.g cursed orntite, realm ore, avalon ore, solarite or titanium to name about half as yet again even with a change it wouldnt be justified to upgrade as they are precious for ascension levels. Upgrade materials for gear like the ophions armour is preferred as it isnt really easy to get (as you stull have to reset the grand market a lot to get the lightning stones) but manageable. Finally, to insentivise people to upgrade the gear rather than leave at lvl1 (and this probably could be reworked in respect to follower stats gear) make it so that master/demon/godforging gives a small bonus to the stats on the gear so it means the players wamt to squeeze every % out of their gear to get the most oit of their summons. This i think will probably help make the rework more palatable for some people.

stuck vault
# azure torrent The basic idea is that like you said a positive is paired with a negative. You d...

high risk, high reward:
first of all, we are talking about a change of the benefactor spec without an overall nerf. As requirement when the summon +% stat is reduced there must be enough available items in and outside of events to make allow the player to reach the current level. I have to emphasize this: otherwise it would be a hidden nerf and we all agree that players would not be happy with that.
Another point is to reduce the effectiveness in T9 and early T10 - this can be done by having the items with the most summon +% not earlies then T10.

So, Bene has reduced summon +% and we want to add more spice and - this is the second point - a switch for more damage OR more survivability.
What comes to my mind (might be not that much right now)

  • damage stance: all summons have a chance to get a random damage buff: att/mag+ or ++, chances: tbd, once or a chance every round
  • protection stance: as you suggested: protect chance +%

why no negative effect: This is already implemented: the summon +% is reduced to a far lower value. This also makes the spec not mandatory for a summon build, it can be exchanged for another spec without losing >100%

azure torrent
full vector
#

Yeah cause if anything im not fussed about the def/res of my summons i really care about hp and either mag/att depending on their forte. If there was event gear which instead gave summon magic up 20% i think that would be neat and could lead to to more specialised leadouts.

azure torrent
stuck vault
#

ok, fair enough, brain storming on negative impacts.

  • Summons have a chance to take longer to cast (+1 turn)
  • Summons have lower HP (glass cannon mode)
  • Summons deal lower damage (-% dam)
  • Caster deals lower damage (-% dam)
  • Spells from the caster have a chance to fail

Still, if there is a negative impact it must provide so much benefit that the user is willing to accept the negative one.

azure torrent
#

I'm fine with leaving Targetdu as a negative behind and i'm comfortable with granting Alldu with said Ritual.

Other suggestions were upkeep costs like HP/MP per turn.

#

HP of summons per turn? Like a zerk?

#

Zerk III on summons as a stance?

stuck vault
#

Interesting idea. uphold costs need to be balanced that it hurts and that you have to counteract at some point, e.g. loose one turn each x rounds

stuck vault
#

Still, target ++ has to many disadvantages imo and heavily depends on items to counteract. Items which must be in the game - if not the stance is not reliable enough.

azure torrent
past rain
#

So long as the summoner builds some ward, don't particularly see the issue in Target up2. T9 still has access to some decent ward items. Being encouraged to have gear investment has been one of the things repeatedly pointed out about summoner

#

Otherwise t9 summon often time gets away with a lot of things due to simply not being targetted

scenic dove
azure torrent
#

Ab so lutely

#

True 5% i'd say

scenic dove
#

otherwise stuff like dragons would be losing
squints
0.2% of their health per turn

#

oh nooo mimic

sinful lance
#

Honestly

#

I think we're missing the elephant in the room

#

Both benefactor & the summon stats augment make it quite clear. Summoners "sacrifice their life force to strengthen summons"

#

So I suck at math, but why can't there be separate variations of "summon stats" it's very clear which summons are made to dish and squish and which are made to meat shield and be pacted. If "summon stats" as it stands MUST be hp, then why not additionally actually intrinsically scale summons base offensive stats based on hp lost via bene spec & augment. As we're "giving our life to empower them"

#

If that's too much of a static buff then make it a "summon Berserk"
Agura Stance: (intrinsically summons may take 1 less turn to summon and fail less often) summons cast while this stance is active have much higher offensive stats, draining the life force of the summoner

#

^ say 50-100hp per summon cast under this stance 250-500hp p turn at 5 summons. Summons have better base offensive stats leaving the "summon stat" unchanged, and actually thematically doing what summoners allegedly do anyway.

#

But summon stats from my pov, seems to weigh hp def&res more than it does offensive stats. Hence why I'm proposing this, as GSA ISN'T nessicarily early t10. Hell even changing intrinsically how bene behaves when paired with celestial classes based. GSA + Bene = offensive stats> hp, Def & res.
GSH+bene =HP, Def & res > offensive stats.

sinful lance
jovial knot
#

Oh I see, you guys want to trade almost no chance of surviving with a less than 0 chance of surviving on a new stance 😂😂. Gets better and better 😂

#

For hydrus the problem has never ever been the damage (ok, to an extent of course if we consider nobody is using pacts anyway) , always the reliability of not being randomly one shot in the first 4 turns….

#

Let’s sacrifice other spell slots or gear slots to alleviate the problem yay

sinful lance
#

I'm almost sitting at 200k ward

thorn cargo
past rain
#

Doom 1shots

chilly lantern
sinful lance
#

^

#

Ty

chilly lantern
#

npnp

proven blaze
#

I want to try to revive this thread again since I think some concerns I have for tackling anguish 2.0 content as a summoner are the same issues that are responsible for the underwhelming (from an endgame t11 perspective) performance of summons in raids. When anguish 2.0 comes out, summon build users will have the same problems except the raids will have even more HP, and the dungeon mobs will have way more HP as well. I think many of us will be forced into summon builds for ang 2.0 dungeons considering our player aoe builds may lack the safety and 1-shot capability of other classes, which may exacerbate these issues.

imo the main problem has been the lack of multipliers and buffs. In early T10 players often do not have good gear, amities, adornments etc, so for an early T10, GS may not seem that bad. However as you approach the endgame, your gear gets better; you get better amities, adornments, celestial weapon augments, specific build core pieces and so on, these all act as damage multipliers for your build. However summon builds benefit from none of these things, except summon stat gear which does not provide as big of a boost as the aforementioned things. Also buffs, as a player it is very easy to buff yourself, but it's not easy to buff summons. Currently this is a heavily RNG reliant process that often requires specswaps and is therefore not usually feasible in non-endless dungeon content.

My preferred solution would be giving players options to make actual builds with their summons. It would imo be awesome if there was a spec/class passive that allowed us to transfer specific gear pieces / bonuses from our gear ( crit chance, elemental damage, stats ) and amities to our summons. Most importantly, there should be a way for us to consistently give buffs to our summons. Maybe even allow us to equip specific moves and buffing skills from a list of suitable moves for each summon family (dragons, undead, animal etc) to truly build around a summon skill / synergy

#

@past rain mind putting your ideas here?

past rain
#

What, the dream patch?

#

Sure

#

The Hellmo Dream Patch

Benefactor:

  • Add a passive that pushes the starting summon stats for non summoners to 100% instead of whatever abysmal number they have now
  • Negate summon failure chance for all summons.

Why? Everyone else can do everything else but summon. In the spirit of build versatility, why not.

Summon Mechanic:

  • Change all summon spells to 1 turn cost.
  • Introduce Summoning Sickness

Summoning Sickness: Set number of turns, summon cannot act, incoming damage increased by like, 50%.

Why? Pacing has been a day 1 issue. No other class has this kind of pacing issue. If we are supposed to be slow and safe, then there needs to be payoff. Currently we do not. We just have no fun for the sake of no fun.

Summon Stats

  • Heavily reduce the % from class/spec passives. Increase the % from gear or introduce a mechanic where multiplier is decided by attack/mag

Why? In order to justify the ability to push summon stats even higher, one must build for it. Much like crit and ward requiring the right loadouts for it, summons should be the same as everyone else.

Summon Changes:

  • Charon's Grimore: Grant Summon Skills like the gods of aaru gear stuff. Remove the rng.
  • Failed Phoenix: Remove Melee Variant, buff Mage Variant's HP. Give the set up skill/mark ability to the player to allow follower/summon - player interplay.
  • Lindworm: Create a summon, do the same as above
  • Spiritgarm: More HP, remove great med, give Jinn's Magic instead.
  • Ancient Dragon: Remove Fire from Dragon Breath ability. Make it pure dragon damage
  • Buggane: Leave as is. Create a t10 version with more HP and a stronger, higher pen, critable physical attack.

Why? Less RNG, better flow, better control. More fun, imo nothing game breaking.

Skills:

  • Life Pact: make it work on everyone
  • Rhada Pact 2: Transfer limited roster of perm buffs (Mag Atk 1 and 2, crit 1)
  • Give us the Lindworm and Phoenix mark skills
  • Give us the 4 elemental weakness abilities that increase Elemental damage by a little but would also have the AI focus on exploiting that status. Do not give us blights. Just the weaker ones.

Why? Every class gives someone something to work with in other builds. Summoner does not. This should change. This also gives the summoner the tools to better guide their summons, reducing RNG.

Items:

  • Celestial Banner: A 3 slot, one handed celestial weapon that gives the adorn benefits to followers and summons. If Mag/Atk influencing summon stats, give it mag/atk as a hybrid weapon that lutes easily outshine. Give us some build diversity for summons and followers instead of pumping up summon/follower stats/act
  • Riftlock: Chance to negate summon sickness, add summon stats as a way to keep it more relevant after summoning phase done.
jade tusk
#

^semi dream patch for beomonner^

#

Odie plz

#

Tho imo the player summon stat malus thing should not be spec locked

#

It should not even exist

proven blaze
# proven blaze I want to try to revive this thread again since I think some concerns I have for...

one might think "summon builds are safe therefore they should not be as fast as dps builds" and I agree, but if you are able to full clear an anguish dungeon floor with a dps build aoe skill, then you obviously receive less damage as well since you've just killed most if not all enemies. With ang 2.0 HP scaling, fights will be taking longer for summon builds, increasing the chances you get hit as a summoner, and of course it also means your clear speed is much lower. Unfortunately in Orna safe and slow builds do not really seem worth it over dps builds imo

past rain
jade tusk
past rain
#

Ah

jade tusk
#

The summoning fail thing is a good one for bene

#

Giving a option to go "summoner route as player"

jade tusk
#

But maybe future gs rework fixes all things

proven blaze
#

I think even odie wont magically come up with the perfect solutions for the problems we have. The problems are just quite difficult to solve

#

so ideally w try to come up with solutions ourselves

past rain
#

Help odie help us

proven blaze
#

@0die

past rain
#

@garfield

jade tusk
#

@beomonnerthesaviourofall

earnest notch
jade tusk
#

We woke him boggers

scenic dove
#

Garfield is Odie's dad...?
The family tree is more confusing than I thought

past rain
#

I thought jon was his dad

#

Ffffffff we doomed. Back to Aidletown for me

jade tusk
#

Odie i have a question. How would you aproach / try to fix the issues around summoners/summons/petmonners. Like... would it be a complete rework of summoners etc or would you try to buff some areas of them via new gear or something. No need to have ideas or anything, just kinda want to hear your opinion 🧐

earnest notch
#

summoner is a really popular class and isn't large enough of an underperformer to justify a rework

that said, i would love the time to tweak and correct it's pitfalls in endgame (plus reduce T7 overperformance)

i've just got a few too many other things to wrap up to really mentally invest in this atm

past rain
#

Yeeeee fair. Looking forward to hammering out those pitfalls for sure though.

proven blaze
#

Rip

jade tusk
#

Thanks for the answer!

bitter nymph
#

Isn’t it t8 where summoner (Grand Attuner) becomes really busted?

T7 it’s competing with Majistrate, which is one of the most OP classes for its tier in the game in both PvE and PvP. And t8 is still “low enough” for raid-spam to be a fast-leveling tool in PvE.

#

I guess Odie has the data

earnest notch
#

T7/T8 share the same concerns, so no reason to differentiate

bitter nymph
#

Fair and valid!

proven blaze
#

thats why I was really expecting a rework of some sort tbh. The overperformance in lower tiers and underperforming at endgame showed something in the summon scaling is off. Imo the issue will become more pronounced when ang 2.0 enemies will have more hp, making dungeons even more of a slog. Gsh is also not doing great at endgame (personally I only use it for pvp offense and literally nothing else). And ang 2.0 in general feels like it was designed without taking the existence of GS into accounts, considering so many maluses have no effect on us but most gear bonuses dnt help either, like John said it feels like we're not really participating. I was looking forward to ang 2.0 but I have no idea how it's going to pan out for us summoenrs

#

and I was not expecting the ang 2.0 update to address these issues since they are mostly fundamental summoner classline issues

earnest notch
#

would you feel more included if their were (more) anti-summoner/follower maluses?

jade tusk
#

maybe and i think pie means more on the anguish buff side like "more pact dmg% or some bonuses that a gs would want to try to hunt for anguished gear.

#

most anguish stat buffs are not very usefull for gs

proven blaze
#

I have to admit, I have not spent thatmuch time on this beta yet (want to wait until my mirror is done). I think from a logical standpoint it would make sense to have summon / follower maluses, but considering most anguish gear bonuses dont apply to summons either, idk how to feel about it.

jade tusk
#

yea maluses are welcome if there is some bonuses to hunt aswell

tropic verge
#

Anguish gear could definitely be more interesting for GS.

But on the whole, the concern is that GS is on its own little island. Major game changes blow past like the wind; they often don't affect us.

Any change or rework that gets GS back into the family would be nice. I would also like to see a -crit malus and consider changing a build, instead of just ignoring it.

proven blaze
#

most recently the selene hand follower act rate nerf just not affecting us lol. Sometimes being on an island benefits us and other times it doesnt.

proven blaze
tropic verge
proven blaze
#

I agree that would help. Sort of like beo does it I suppose

#

that would at least help with the problem of summon damage being strong early on but underwhelming later on. But I still think there probably needs ot be a better way to buff summons, why does it need to be so hard for GS when other classes (including Valhallan) can do it so easily

bitter nymph
proven blaze
#

lets throw some quadratic scaling in there as well mimic

scenic dove
#

Making the regular maluses apply to summons would fix the second problem but leave the first

proven blaze
#

which is why it probably makes sense to try to fix this problem later (in some kind of summoner rework probably) instead of in this current anguish 2.0 focused update. It seems like the core issue is the lack of scaling from gear, which is not really really an anguish 2.0 specific issue

scenic dove
#

It'll suck a little to have us basically "wait" until we can properly interact with the system, but it's better than nobody getting it. So yes, it's fine to wait until after release. There's enough on this release's plate already anyway

edgy obsidian
#

Nefr GS!

jade tusk
#

Trying to ragebait arent we?mightiest_mimic

proven blaze
#

just like back in the day mightiest_mimic

jade tusk
#

feels like home isnt it mightiest_mimic

earnest notch
#

just bufr it

scenic dove
#

Guys he might be onto something
Brb swapping to charmer

jade tusk
#

odie why do you look so charming today mightiest_mimic

past rain
#

Moar bufr

stuck vault
#

Slow and Safe should count for all classes, shouldn't it? Not 'Fast and Safe' like Gilga.

So Gilga nerf when to Fast and Squishy? Or Slow and Safe?

tropic verge
#

that's a hell of a necro 😆
anyway SS changes being tested in beta as we speak, to reduce the damage that players can deal while being unkillable

earnest notch
#

i'm sure that 8 min number has changed in 2 years 😅

stuck vault
tropic verge
#

Reading back through older/historical balance threads is definitely eye-opening.

People freaking out at potential nerfs that never materialized, talking about how the game would be unplayable if it took 5 minutes to kill a raid instead of 4 minutes.
(And that raid now dies in like 30 seconds, at a lower level, with more easily acquired gear.)

proven blaze
#

@past rain what's your summon build raiding speed these days? How long does it take you to kill amorri and what al?

proven blaze
# stuck vault Slow and Safe should count for all classes, shouldn't it? Not 'Fast and Safe' l...

the tradeoff to gilga is gear quality to some degree. Gilga is fast and safe but requires good gear, while gs is safe and slow but requires very little gear. I would prefer if we could increase our damage more with better gear similar to what gilgas and most other classes can do, i.e. some kind of gear scaling. Although I believe gear scaling has already been discussed to death in this thread lol

stuck vault
past rain
stuck vault
past rain
# past rain Al 38 atm. I'll record an Amorri run

I brained my damage. 20mill in 8 minutes with Phoenix/Pegasus combo. Spiritgarm tend to die too quick and buggane damage falls off. Ancient dragon deals dragon damage so not worth the resistance pain. Buggane would take two seperate runs of around 8 minutes each. 50% hp each run. I'm not even planning on touching amorri raids in anguish

#

Half a morri run. Full run is more or less the same, just longer since scaling stats blah blah blah

#

And don't get me started on waygate raids lol

proven blaze
#

summon gs never felt that safe against amorri tbh. You're stacking layers of rng to be somewhat safe but her ult might still slap you

jade tusk
#

Lol

proven blaze
#

@jade tusk beomonner run for comparison?

jade tusk
#

Sure

#

9 mins to beat amorri

#

Used titanseal build which is kinda slow vs her bc dispel2

#

But i would say sub 10 mins per amorri

#

With that build

#

And most of the dmg was dealt by towerfall bc dispells

#

And tf deals 1-1,3m dmg with that build

#

If eos does rune and seal combo it deals 1-6m dmg on crit depending on how many runes it procs

#

Full tf build would be much faster but i dont want to compare it bc its heavily nerfed in beta and totan seal is basicly better mightiest_mimic

#

I did record aswell but i dont have nitro to drop it here mightiest_mimic

#

Around 9mins for 30m dmg

#

8.40mins to be exact

jade tusk
#

Thats basicly 1m dmg per rune

Screenshot_20250515_111337_Orna.jpg Screenshot_20250515_111403_Orna.jpg
#

@past rain how long does it take you to fully beat amorri in 1 run

past rain
jade tusk
#

Yea

#

In 9 mins

proven blaze
proven blaze
#

Celestial weapon was not ideal (cba to readorn an existing axe with oceanus lung). Al101

Screenshot_2025-05-16-10-25-38-34_fba058fbcaeda824c55dd11029f3cefb.jpg
proven blaze
#

Did a second run with oceanus lung cele axe but still died to the ult smh

Screenshot_2025-05-16-10-55-53-04_e55d67e6190e80b161828c9e2aa77e01.jpg
proven blaze
cunning night
proven blaze
#

even if you did, you would be missing the entire point of this discusison thread

#

Summon raiding builds, we are talking about summons dealing the damage i.e. the auriga playstyle which is not great at the endgame.

cunning night
#

ah yeah just see a beomoner in here so i think doing raid as gs in general

#

but yeah gs have most op spell ingame so i cant complain further more even no pet their ultima x2,25 is a point

proven blaze
#

the point I made here a bit earlier in the thread as well is that I think many of the summon raid problems will carry over to anguish 2.0 as well. Its a similar situation of facing high HP enemies with summons that do not have great damage output. I dont know if maybe a good player dmg build will emerge for ang 2.0, but I feel like GS has never been that great at horde dmg output, so idk.

Still, for a summoner class it would be nice if the summon playstyle was good as well instead of only the mage builds. Just look at the beos which have been great at both pet dmg and player dmg

jade tusk
#

should i try to do amorri with a beithir staff build

#

just to see how fast it is

jade tusk
#

Beithr first cast mightiest_mimic

#

I did 20m dmg in 3,5mins

#

Died tho

jade tusk
#

Not as good as titanseal eos bc its so unsafe with beithr strat

jovial knot
#

Remember guys, the game should be balanced with AL50 as it is the « average » according to Odie’s stats. Because we know that given enough AL you’ll be able to solo everything. I tried to do some tests on GS but I end up being smashed the same way, random ult and you’re a goner and it takes forever to do a raid when you are <50.

#

Not really sure about the protect change being that effective either.

jade tusk
#

Im al 32

#

But im no gs tho mightiest_mimic

cunning night
#

So avg u can do like 6m with gait and jinn magic tonic
Not minmax and after gain more al it does upper than 2m too

#

So definately 6 bpact 3 enough to kill amorri, well but yeah low al

#

Ultima do same dpt without harm your gs too but need adragon inflict blight for the insane hit

jade tusk
#

If amorri hits you you just die

cunning night
#

boggers battalion and woo enough for survival

#

Sadly i cant show the op of gs more for result

jade tusk
#

Pfft 25% battallions on 2 summons is not 25% fyi

#

And dualwielding celestaff and nekrostaff does not give enough ward that woO would be usefull

proven blaze
jade tusk
#

Sure you can do good burst dmg, but amorri is way too tanky for that to be super effective (even less with ang 2.0 which is the main concern)

cunning night
#

Have enough slot for pacting without sequencer

#

2 nag, fomor armor and fomor leg so

#

But yeah if u want fasten things, less safety is doable

cunning night
#

At least try play it profession to see

jade tusk
#

I actually played gs before beo rework

#

But i simply know math that 20k ward is not enough if anguished amorri hits 80k a turn

cunning night
#

And tldr with enough al, amorri can be finished in 2 pact only

#

Make gs is one of the most efficient for it

#

Dont forget most of raid method being nerfed without mention bpact

#

That is enough to know how insanely quadra scaling

#

So idk why gs need to cry while being so good ngl bpact has insane pen too

jade tusk
#

I happened to see ang raid oneshot a ancient dragon at turn 1

#

How you bloodpact if you run out of summons

cunning night
jade tusk
#

Also stasis is being nerfed in beta

cunning night
#

I dont want to make an argument with someone even dont know about the class playstyle tbf

#

Et end in here

proven blaze
#

bpact isnt good without high al

jade tusk
#

I dont need to main gs if i know ang 2.0 and gs just aint friends mightiest_mimic

cunning night
#

So i can say another choice is ultima

proven blaze
#

and again, this is about the auriga playstyle. I think when you have celestial classes offering different playstyles, both should be viable across most content

cunning night
#

A bit tanky with 1 turn dc and y dont need snortra tbh

jade tusk
#

Ultima is even worse bc its nerfed

cunning night
#

For high dps with gs passive 50% light dark

jade tusk
#

But sure you may be bit more tanky

cunning night
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I think if blight it can cap easily with ultima and quick cas ultima is still in meta too

cunning night
jade tusk
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I dont think you will cap much if playing high ang raids

cunning night
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And endless for phase preparation too, best class for depth endless orn

jade tusk
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Maybe turn 1 cap and then it gets lower

cunning night
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Beta is uncertainly and even raid method in nerfed agan