Phoenix Followers and the problem of follower choice

[ocean hamlet]

Again, I have no way to backup or counterargue this

[zinc dagger]

tbf, both of you don't

[knotty burrow]

Propose.

[balmy heart]

I already made few suggestions on these things

[ocean hamlet]

It's really difficult to provide an idea that would rival APhoenix

[balmy heart]

I am waiting for that balance patch before I comment more

[ocean hamlet]

There are so many on-paper overpowered options and yet they still fall flat

[knotty burrow]

Was tripling the damage of other pets?

[zinc dagger]

giving easy access to DC was a mistake in the first place

[ocean hamlet]

That was an unintentional side effect of making ActChance% too accessible

[zinc dagger]

I think pheonix should be reworked to act like a cheatdeath passive and go from all+++ to all+

[ocean hamlet]

Don't give Second Chances to Realms thank you

[zinc dagger]

why ?

everyone deserve a second chance

[ocean hamlet]

There's someone out there who can put my thoughts in a better sentence but:

• Getting from 0% to 100% passive in one turn
• Mystic Feather fully activated
• Most Realms already use immunity gear to prevent losing the MF bonus.

Going against this in PvP is just ridiculous on paper

We're devolving into another topic though

Back to AP

[zinc dagger]

it's all pvp problems, and the only real problem is mystic feather because other problems already exists with deity having second chance and heretics having mana rush/iconoclast.

it's easy to counter tho

just make it heal you to full health and you're done

or half, just something realistic toward MF

[earnest ginkgo]

How about you separate the effects, make AP have 2 buffs: 1) phoenix might, gives t att +++ and t mag +++, 2) phoenix shield, gives t def +++ and t res +++

This way you cannot have double damage and double resistance the same turn

Also being 4 separate buffs they all fade away at different times

[ornate canyon]

First.. you guys have too much time on your hands. Two.. of course endgame loves the bird. It's helpful not just for mages but every class utilizes it. It's not the end all be all and there are plenty of other followers that serve other purposes and do amazing things. Just because no one chooses to explore them doesn't mean the bird is too OP. If everyone uses him it means everyone has equal access to him so it's not like it's class specific. If you don't have him, you can't wait for an event that allows you to purchase him. In order to get the bird to proc efficintly you have to equip some form of follower boosting gear or adorns, meaning you are missing out on other boosts like crit ward or defenses. He has his downsides, but anything he does you can make happen in another way. He is not a problem and is not broken if everyone has the ability to use him.

[zinc dagger]

plenty of other followers that serve other purposes and do amazing things
Yet no one can give a proper exemple.

[ocean hamlet]

And yet the majority still sticks with AP

[earnest ginkgo]

Also you don't miss on ward cause blackened give ward

You actually build pet act and survivability

[ocean hamlet]

You don't miss on defenses either since AP doubles your Defense and Resistance

[balmy heart]

Chimera, Lotan, Dragons, Atlas.

[ornate canyon]

I use them all

[balmy heart]

Because everyone is lazy

I don't want to change my follower everytime I do other things

I change them when I want to do same thing for longer times.

[earnest ginkgo]

If towerfall had full omnimancy it would be way better and way more used imo, but that's another topic

[zinc dagger]

you're joking or what ? you're the first one to say you can't play anything else then pheonix

also lotan and dragons are only for ultima users

[ornate canyon]

Fight a Beo clan and they all use the green bird. There are ways to use other followers in unique and fun ways. You guys keep arguing and complaining. I'm gonna go get stronger.

[zinc dagger]

only on beo

[ornate canyon]

That's what I said

[ocean hamlet]

The reason Beo uses damaging pets is because it's their only source of damage, AP doesn't compare

Lotan is a x2.4 Ultima bonus
Chimera is a x1.5 Damage bonus with a downside

Atlas:
Ward turns? Phoenix does that as well
Damaging abilities? Phoenix has that as well
Protect? Phoenix has that as well
Defense and Resistance up? Phoenix has that as well, procs it 100% of the time, and additionally doubles your damage

[zinc dagger]

people are just too tied to there free DC. At this point NF should nerf pheonix to the ground and buff it later so people start playing without perma DC again.

[azure granite]

Ease it with the targeted passive agressive tones please.

[earnest ginkgo]

Atlas, technically, gives more def and res cause he can proc t def ++ and t def +++ some for res

[ocean hamlet]

I'm using Atlas religiously ever since it's release and that has happened like, maybe twice

[earnest ginkgo]

The problem imo is DC giving everything all together

[balmy heart]

As an RS

[earnest ginkgo]

In other realms i saw it happened 4-5 times per raid

[ocean hamlet]

The DefRes boost is massively inconsistent

[balmy heart]

You asked about useful pets that others use

[earnest ginkgo]

Didn't say it's consistent, I said it's technically better

[ocean hamlet]

It's technically better in this particular area alone

It's a solid edge case

[earnest ginkgo]

In practice DC gives everything instantly with AP

[earnest ginkgo]

Exactly

[earnest ginkgo]

That's why i suggested this

[ocean hamlet]

Still, an edge case that rarely happens

[zinc dagger]

atlas is 50% double up (which could be 100% imo) and 2% triple up (which can be read 0%)

[onyx barn]

hybrid build will be sooo op

[ocean hamlet]

Indirect Deity buffs and Lugus nerfs

[keen palm]

How unusable would AP be if you just make pet casts take the amount of turns the ability takes to cast?

[earnest ginkgo]

But nerf to celestials diety

[ocean hamlet]

While some people would hop along with this change, there are many other followers that would be unnecessarily hit by this change

[earnest ginkgo]

Also it's not quiet a nerf to lugus, it would make it more consistent

And you would have to autocast DC

[ocean hamlet]

The thing is that Lugus is almost always paired with Phoenix in Hordes since that is enough to effortlessly clear such Dungeon runs

Removing one from the equation, even for consistency's sake makes a dent in that area of the game

... According to some people

Anyways I will have to go off this discussion now, got life stuff to handle

[balmy heart]

It is a nerf to lugus

[earnest ginkgo]

How?

[balmy heart]

Because you lose bonus from t.all so lugus becomes useless

And overall your damage too

[earnest ginkgo]

Same thing with chimera and chimera staff

[balmy heart]

You can use AP with chimera staff

[zinc dagger]

if you go that way, deity celestials are a nerf to lugus...

[balmy heart]

They get free lugus

And can equip, AP and one more accessory

Either bog or conc

[earnest ginkgo]

But it would increase pet choice

You want free lugus -> AP

Want free zerk -> chimera

[balmy heart]

Well removing a pet or making it useless will certainly increase a pet choice

[earnest ginkgo]

How would AP be useless this way

[balmy heart]

There's already free zerk, chimera weapons

[earnest ginkgo]

Still doubles damage and defense

[balmy heart]

You can't party efficiently with this

[balmy heart]

Damage is decreased overall

There's no t.all+++

[zinc dagger]

then with such pheonix, you get free lugus and can equip other accesories

[earnest ginkgo]

Exactly

[balmy heart]

But no damage

[earnest ginkgo]

No damage is a bold statement

[balmy heart]

So you might die and party run ends

[balmy heart]

Have you carried?

T11 dungeons?

[earnest ginkgo]

T11 not yet, since I'm 242

[balmy heart]

Or Vogs or during dragon events?

Even t10s

[zinc dagger]

mayeb carries are not a good thing. Hear me out, what if everyone should play in party play ?

[balmy heart]

Everyone does in vog and dragon events

[earnest ginkgo]

But i could still oneshot most of the floors with just t all +++ or t mag +++

[balmy heart]

Not vog or during dragon event

[earnest ginkgo]

That's where the other tree in the party come in

If something survives they kill it

[balmy heart]

But this will limit the party to only strong players

[earnest ginkgo]

It's party play, not carry play others watch him go boom boom

[zinc dagger]

also if you consider that att+++ is a nerf to lugus, then DC pheonix is a nerf to deity

[balmy heart]

That's why some deity don't use it and instead use alignment pets to carry for melee carry

But when they do magic carry they use AP

[earnest ginkgo]

Because they choose other multipliers instead of consistency

[balmy heart]

You have never carried a party of weak players.

Once you do you will know

[balmy heart]

Yeah that's how it should be.

Bring in content which forces you to choose other pets other than AP

[zinc dagger]

thing is, deity having DC auto cast is considered a passive part of their strengh, but if everyone have access to it (and a better access at that), it's still a nerf

[balmy heart]

Not really.

[earnest ginkgo]

That's why I suggested something that works similar to chimera and chimera staff

[balmy heart]

Deity has other passives too which makes up for it

[earnest ginkgo]

So you have to choose which multiplier you want

[balmy heart]

But then we lose lots of damage

You really should try carrying without phoenix

[earnest ginkgo]

Instead of slotting everything in your gear because your doubles it in 1 turn

[balmy heart]

Just lose golem

And lugus

[earnest ginkgo]

I did with atlas and double lugus and it works

[balmy heart]

And see how good and fast you are

[balmy heart]

Was it vog?

[earnest ginkgo]

BG

[balmy heart]

Try doing vog.

That's the end game content

[earnest ginkgo]

Still, if something survives other party members should kill it

[balmy heart]

With a party you find randomly

[earnest ginkgo]

Otherwise I would just do solo

[balmy heart]

Should and can are two different things

[zinc dagger]

no, it's a dead passive, period.

[balmy heart]

If you miss once in vog and you have carry gear with snotra or Gunn there's a very high chance you won't survive

[balmy heart]

It isn't

AP doesn't always work

[earnest ginkgo]

Someone can go inquisitor or cleric and revive me

Chat exist even with randoms

[balmy heart]

Not when you are solo

[earnest ginkgo]

With pet act yes

[balmy heart]

Even with it

I carry a lot

I know if it works always or not

[earnest ginkgo]

Don't go solo with 2 points in defense or use another bulkier build

The point of an rpg is adapt to what you are doing

Imo

AP takes away this philosophy

[balmy heart]

You really haven't carried

[zinc dagger]

it is

[earnest ginkgo]

Yes I have

[balmy heart]

If you use snotra or gunnr

No matter your build.you don't have defences

[earnest ginkgo]

So, if you are solo, don't use it

[balmy heart]

Because of the content we have

Give us content which requires different builds

[balmy heart]

Then where will the damage come from?

[earnest ginkgo]

Than make AP work so that you actually have to think what pet to use

[balmy heart]

Since you said no t.all+++ and no snotra

[balmy heart]

It already does it that

[earnest ginkgo]

You get t mag/atk +++

[balmy heart]

We already had that with lugus

[earnest ginkgo]

You can slot some other effect

[balmy heart]

So where will the extra damage come from without t.all+++ and no snotra

[earnest ginkgo]

Or get it consistently

[balmy heart]

Like what?

You won't get enough damage

Since you lose so much without snotra and t.all+++

Or dc

[earnest ginkgo]

Oh no, I will need one extra turn to kill something above 100k hp

[knotty burrow]

So~ if we made DC an amity (10% proc) would that be enough to remove AP?

[balmy heart]

And that one turn can end up killing your character

[balmy heart]

That's more OP

[earnest ginkgo]

You have defenses without dnotra at this point

[balmy heart]

But let others complain first

[knotty burrow]

Everyone would have access to it

How would that be bad ?

[balmy heart]

Isn't that the point then

[knotty burrow]

Also solves partially the issue with the Celestial Deity

[balmy heart]

You wanted dc nerf

But when you can get it, it's okay

[knotty burrow]

I might me misunderstanding

But it seemed that you wanted to protect it at all cost

[balmy heart]

Yes I want to protect AP

[knotty burrow]

I gave you the chance to keep it through other metods

[balmy heart]

With dc

[earnest ginkgo]

The point isn't DC nerf, is a pet giving DC instantly

[balmy heart]

But then it just means the reason you want it gone is because you don't have access t it.

If you had access to dc it's okay

[earnest ginkgo]

There is a reason the skill takes 3 turns

[knotty burrow]

No, i want it gone from AP

[balmy heart]

See

[knotty burrow]

And what do you want?

[balmy heart]

I don't

That's simple

[knotty burrow]

So just whinnying

[balmy heart]

You want it gone because you can't use it

So that's whining

But let's not go there

[knotty burrow]

I have access to it

[balmy heart]

Not as GS

[knotty burrow]

It takes 3 turns and a class unlock

[balmy heart]

The only place this really affects players is PvP

[knotty burrow]

I dont want it in an amity, just offered a different solution

Instead of just complaining to anything that anyone say

[balmy heart]

There's a rebalance coming and new way of PvP.

I mean AP doesn't affect any player except in PvP

So change how PvP works.

Instead of removing AP from the game

[earnest ginkgo]

Noone said that

We are just saying to put AP in line with other pets

[balmy heart]

Without dc AP will become useless.

[knotty burrow]

What I said could be interpreted that way

[balmy heart]

That's a guarantee

[earnest ginkgo]

Not really

[balmy heart]

I can bet on it

[earnest ginkgo]

It would just mean you would have to think on how to reach same damage in other ways and actually do party play

[balmy heart]

There aren't

[raw isle]

Either make a new equipment piece give DC ( for example arisen lugus gauntlets with a 3% actovation rate, the same as normal lugus) or include in an existing but underutilized one like the new deity immunity charms

[knotty burrow]

There are, you are not thinking

[balmy heart]

Unless you want to do a dungeon in 10mins

[knotty burrow]

Thats all

[balmy heart]

Yeah

That's all

[earnest ginkgo]

Thanks

[balmy heart]

So players who already have less time for orna would need to use more time to get the same things

[earnest ginkgo]

You sre too drastic with the times it take to clear a dungeon without dc

[balmy heart]

While other classes which didn't use AP will remain as fast as they were

[earnest ginkgo]

People out there clear votg in less than 10 min with gs

[knotty burrow]

There are people playing Beowulf

[balmy heart]

Try doing a solo Vog without dc

And take a video

[balmy heart]

And new class is amazing

[knotty burrow]

Take a video and prove it

[earnest ginkgo]

Try votg with and see how fast you are

[balmy heart]

It's you guys saying it won't take it that much time.

If I did take 10mins you won't believe it

[earnest ginkgo]

I'll guarantee it's less than 10 min

[balmy heart]

So you should try it yourselves

[knotty burrow]

Nah, I do it every time already

Alongside with towers

And no, no free DC there

[balmy heart]

And I have done vog in a party with AP it takes more than 6-7mins

[onyx barn]

not everyone has 200% gear like u do

[knotty burrow]

(Beowulf and Summoner)

[balmy heart]

See

That's what I am talking

[balmy heart]

You will be able to do it in same time.

But other classes which use AP will slow down

[balmy heart]

Do it with heretic or RS

Or Gilga or Diety

Don't compare it with GS or beo

[earnest ginkgo]

Is it that bad doing a votg in 1-2 more min?

[balmy heart]

Yeah

Because not everyone can play for hours

Some have only one hour

[knotty burrow]

I think that i will leave the convo up to there with Sore

[balmy heart]

And they want to do as much as they can

[knotty burrow]

Since hes locked in an ideal

[balmy heart]

And you can't understand the point from other classes

[knotty burrow]

If anyone else with argument wants to discuss the why not to remove DC from AP

[balmy heart]

There are other classes besides your own

[knotty burrow]

Feel free to add in the topoc

[earnest ginkgo]

Than the discussion is closed, there is no point to go further

[balmy heart]

That's good

[knotty burrow]

Add DC in amity. Solved.

[earnest ginkgo]

I play heretic and gs, both a lot, that's what I'm coming from

[zinc dagger]

how did we go from "there's too much DC" to "add DC amity" ?

[knotty burrow]

I played Beo for 3 years, that's why I know that we can survive without a free DC and ward generator

[earnest ginkgo]

But if 1-2 more minutes to do a dungeon is considered a problem there is no point we kepp discussing

[balmy heart]

I didn't want to comment on it and waited for others to explain to him how it is

[knotty burrow]

For the people that complain with the argument of "I will lose all my power"

[balmy heart]

Then keep it with AP

Why make another problem?

[knotty burrow]

It wouldn't give you wards.

Just the "lack of power"

[balmy heart]

If ward is the problem then remove ward from dc and remove other skills

[knotty burrow]

That you claim so hard

[zinc dagger]

2 turn ward barely count for anything when double all stats is in the balance

[balmy heart]

Keep DC with AP problem solved

[knotty burrow]

Agree 👍🏻

No protect, no attack, just T.all3

I'm good with that

[balmy heart]

Even better remove Protect chance too

Yeah

That's what I have been saying from the start

[zinc dagger]

wouldn't change anything, people will still run pheonix because perma DC is too strong

[balmy heart]

But dc is problem in PvP only.

Then just make it so that AP can't be used in PvP

Problem solved

[zinc dagger]

if it was a pvp problem only, you wouldn't be cying about endless for the last 2 hours

[knotty burrow]

And then we can fix other issues, as Kerberos eyes

[balmy heart]

That's the thing

All the screenshot for the usage of AP are of PvP

So what's the problem with AP being used by other classes?

How does it affect others?

[zinc dagger]

it affects the all meta because you need DC so you need AP and so you never play any other pet

[balmy heart]

Yeah but how?

Explain the effects of it on others or gameplay.

[knotty burrow]

Other Realms event

[earnest ginkgo]

Giving it maluses would be nice imo

[knotty burrow]

Beowulf extra pet dmg (2%) drops your HP and Mana to the floor

We can do something similar there

[earnest ginkgo]

Exacty

[balmy heart]

How does it affect you or others?

[zinc dagger]

balance is not restricted to PVP, PVE should also be balanced and pheonix giving perma double all stats is not balanced.

[balmy heart]

It's not a competition

[knotty burrow]

Oh? Wasn't time an important matter?

[earnest ginkgo]

So investing in enough pet rate to get pes DC would actually make you think of what you are using

[knotty burrow]

My time is less important?

[zinc dagger]

yes

[balmy heart]

Even without AP it's easy

[knotty burrow]

I will take it, but it offends me greatly

[balmy heart]

There are pets which other classes use for raids

[earnest ginkgo]

Than why so adamant on dungeon time

[balmy heart]

Because dungeon and raids are two different things

And killing a raid in OR is very easy

[earnest ginkgo]

But the pet is the same

[balmy heart]

I can change to a different pet

For raiding

But dungeons are different

[zinc dagger]

when a 5min dungeon is a problem but a 2h tower is not lmao

[balmy heart]

I can do 15-18 dungeons in an hour

[knotty burrow]

Anyway, we agree in the AP giving 3T.All only ?

[balmy heart]

Without AP I can only do 10-12

[balmy heart]

I can work with this

[balmy heart]

As I said, I would get less for the same time other gets the same amount

And raiding and dungeons are two different things

Raiding is not about speed, it's about damage

Max damage

Which one gets from changing specs

[earnest ginkgo]

For some is also about speed

[zinc dagger]

DC should be rarer and it's a fact that many people are not willing to accept.

[knotty burrow]

Just imagine if you get as many DC procs as Lugus buff

[balmy heart]

Just change spec

[knotty burrow]

People would just think about it.

[earnest ginkgo]

DC gives double dmg, it's always gonna be the fastest way

[balmy heart]

Not with current setups

Blights gives 2.4x damage

For mages

[knotty burrow]

But failed

[balmy heart]

For realm zerk 3 is better as we can do redline faster

And chimera

[raw isle]

No, not for mages, for ultima( and ultimastrike) users

[zinc dagger]

with quad edge, redlining is already mega fast

[earnest ginkgo]

And than DC double your output

[balmy heart]

Yeah

[balmy heart]

Well so what's the problem?

[earnest ginkgo]

Why don't you use the skill instead of AP?

Because it's instant instead of 3 turns

[balmy heart]

I do when I use chimera

[earnest ginkgo]

That's whole point

[balmy heart]

That's why I said Raider+Chimera

[earnest ginkgo]

Than you lose on speed

[zinc dagger]

DC was built to be a compensation for horrible deity purple line, or have a terribly long casting time. Now it has been given to everyone for some reasons.

[balmy heart]

And everyone enjoys it.

[balmy heart]

With new celestial weapons raiding is as fast as it can be

[earnest ginkgo]

Just give diety passive to everyone than

[knotty burrow]

The raid became a mob with higher HP pool

[balmy heart]

No thanks, we have AP

[balmy heart]

True

[zinc dagger]

Yes, because deity passive isn't even the best option. Which is stupid.

[bleak echo]

Hello guys, i have 1 interesting suggestion about phoenix, like a its phoenix cmon, its should revive and become powerfull.
So my suggestion is.. Phoenix apply DC after successfully Block dmg, what do u think about it?

[azure granite]

Of all the proposals I've heard, this one is definitely among the more interesting ones.
It means you cannot increase the DC rate in any way other than by increasing block rate (Call of Jord?)
It'd be a better pet on Valhallan classes due to the innate block chance.

Though it'd likely be weird to implement, and most classes would stop using it, since it requires getting hit to get the buff

Whereas most people want it to be used after they hit. or inbetween floors.

But it's a neat design space that warrants being looked at, hadn't considered the possibility of followers doing something when blocking

[zinc dagger]

isn't there some gear with protect rate ? (also an amity or something)

[azure granite]

There might be. But it's still nowhere near as easy to boost as act rate

[zinc dagger]

found an amity that give 7%

not too bad for a start (also it give you t.all+++ but it actually block damages)

[azure granite]

It'd just be very different because you'd never be able to proc it if you don't get hit in the first place

but being able to build towards block rate and get a benefit that isn't just block rate sounds like cool design space to me

[zinc dagger]

technically you'll not be hit

[azure granite]

You know what I mean. An attack is done on you.

Meaning you can't get DC until an enemy survives a hit from you

[zinc dagger]

i get it

I'm not a fan of it give DC anyway

[rich dirge]

someone probably said this, but nerfing pheonix is a direct nerf to heretic

especially in horde content, phoenix is crucial to heretic

[north axle]

I don't understand why people think that a nerf to phoenix is a direct nerf to heretic not to any other class

[rich dirge]

never said it's not to any other class

[north axle]

But you singled out heretic as getting the worst out of a potential nerf

Other classes also use phoenix in their carry builds

Not just heretic

[rich dirge]

i think you're reading too much into this. never said the worst. i just don't have experience playing all the classes to say anything

[thorny stone]

no thats how it reads haha

[rich dirge]

🤦🏽‍♂️

[fleet badge]

its crazy how so many people hate heretic for no reason

[thorny stone]

?

[rich dirge]

they're not hating on heretic

it's misunderstanding. i'm saying heretic is getting shafted if phoenix nerf. it's getting read as heretic is getting the worst shaft

[fleet badge]

instead of nerfing phoenix, make other existing pets relevant

[grizzled sable]

Nerfing phoenix is a direct nerf to almost everyone

[fleet badge]

we got like 200 of them

🙂

[grizzled sable]

I agree, but we need pets at a middle ground

[rich dirge]

yeah, it's literally why everyone except ....summoner uses them

[grizzled sable]

Not as strong as phoenix

Not as weak as other pets

[fleet badge]

beos dont use phoenix

[white eagle]

if GS could give up one summon slot to use a pet, they would use phoenix 100%.

[grizzled sable]

Which is why it needs a nerf to revert some powercreep and improve variety

[grizzled sable]

Beo hydrus does

[fleet badge]

and it seems to me that OP is maining beo and gs :shocked:

[grizzled sable]

Op is a well respected og player

He knows the game well bro

[thorny stone]

is this missing a /s or /j

[fleet badge]

no

this is my first impression

[grizzled sable]

Fux knows his stuff man dw

It isn't a rage post at all lol

[thorny stone]

k im not really understanding what the point of that message is if its not a joke lmao

[grizzled sable]

It's actually pretty reasonable

[rich dirge]

everybody getting upset

yll need to chill

[grizzled sable]

I don't think anyone is getting upset?

[rich dirge]

😮 hopefully im not reading too much into this

if not that's good then

we keeping it civilized XD

[thorny stone]

ur good dw

[balmy heart]

And buff to those classes which don't use phoenix. As if one gets slowed down other gets fast.

[white eagle]

literally the entire point of this discussion thread. There is no pet divserity when there is a 100% optimal solution gated behind event windows that covers 95% of situations for all classes and set ups.

[serene vortex]

DC only for god classes

[grizzled sable]

I'm not saying it's a bad thing

I'm all for nerfing it

[grizzled sable]

It's not a buff to other classes at all actually lol

It's just not a nerf for them

[balmy heart]

It's simple

[grizzled sable]

Only in pvp

[balmy heart]

A= 100, B = 100

[grizzled sable]

You could call it a buff

[balmy heart]

Remove 20 from A

B is better

It's similar to remove AP

If you remove AP then the one who don't AP get benefit

Or who can't

[grizzled sable]

Classes that use phoenix=130 beo and summoner=100

Remove 30

How does that buff beo and summoner

It literally just evens things out

[balmy heart]

Nope

[grizzled sable]

The only piece of content the classes compete is pvl

Pvp

[rich dirge]

summoner = 20000

imho

[balmy heart]

And summoner in PvP is 200 and other classes 150 with AP

[grizzled sable]

In PvP, yes but I think that is another discussion

[balmy heart]

Realm 50 with everything

[balmy heart]

Yeah, Summoner in Raids is also quite good.

Endless too.

The only thing it's bad is in Party Play

[grizzled sable]

That's a topic for a different discussion

We are talking about phoenix

[balmy heart]

But new celestial class allows for Party play

[grizzled sable]

Phoenix is extremely powerful and making it weaker doesn't make the classes that don't use it stronger

It makes them better comparitively

[balmy heart]

Yeah and that's why we are asking why do those who don't use pr can't use AP are asking it to be removed.

[grizzled sable]

But that only really matters in pvp

[balmy heart]

I can understand Fux as he has been here for so long.

But why are even new players asking for that

[rich dirge]

PVP is a core part of the game

[grizzled sable]

It's not

Not at all even

[verbal adder]

everytime gs is mentioned by a non gs player = its for another discussion
even tho i agree, its still related

[rich dirge]

maybe not for u lul

[grizzled sable]

For most players PvP is trivial

[azure granite]

PvP is getting its own balancing going on, so please leave it for another discussion thread or elsewhere

[grizzled sable]

Yes pls

[balmy heart]

But it is a part where AP is used most.

[azure granite]

Grand Summoner is another polarizing thread with its own discussion thread

[balmy heart]

So it shall be discussed

[grizzled sable]

PvP arguably has more variety in terms of pets than other content

[balmy heart]

Nope

[rich dirge]

pheonix, GS, and pvp are all intertwined. i don't get how it wouldn't be pertinent here

[balmy heart]

Everyone uses AP that's what everyone asking for AP nerf has been saying

So if what you say is correct then why need a nerf if there is already a use for other pets?

[azure granite]

Phoenix and GS are absolutely not intertwined.
Phoenix is just the best pet at the moment.
If you feel like you need phoenix to compete with GS, THAT is a topic that warrants discussion, but it isn't about phoenix, it's about GS.

[grizzled sable]

Pve

Literally

I'm not talking about PvP at all I believe it's in a really bad state of stat checks and oneshots

[balmy heart]

But why?

[grizzled sable]

Because I believe pve is a bigger part of the game

[balmy heart]

Yeah, but why need a nerf for something you can't use?

As it will nerf every class that uses it badly

[grizzled sable]

Wdym I can't use lol

I don't play summoner exclusively

[balmy heart]

Summoner can't use it.

[balmy heart]

You main it

[grizzled sable]

I'm playing this game for years and played every class man

We can all agree that for balance's sake phoenix needs to get toned down

[zinc dagger]

but you're a summoner, you don't have the right to talk about the game balance.

[azure granite]

Discrediting a person's opinion just because they play summoner, maining it or not, is not a very polite thing to do, considering everyone's opinions are valid in one way or another.

[balmy heart]

Then it should be toned down in a way there is a real balance between classes

[verbal adder]

who's we here?

[balmy heart]

Yeah

[grizzled sable]

You don't think phoenix is overpowered compared to other pets?

[rich dirge]

i dont agree

[zinc dagger]

make DC Deific again !

[balmy heart]

I am not discrediting their opinion. I am asking why as a summoner they think AP should be nerfed

[grizzled sable]

I'm not saying anything "as a summoner" man

[azure granite]

it has nothing to do with them being a summoner.

[balmy heart]

Then what?

[azure granite]

It's that, objectively speaking, there are no pets that compare to phoenix

[grizzled sable]

I'm saying them as a player that sees 99% of the playerbase using phoenix

That obviously objectively means its the best

[azure granite]

people really need to detach phoenix from their class

[balmy heart]

Why?

[azure granite]

Because it's not the classes that are in question. It's a pet.

Just. The pet.

[balmy heart]

There will always be one pet who is best.

[rich dirge]

the pet affects the class

[grizzled sable]

That's not true

[azure granite]

No, there doesn't have to be one pet who is best

[balmy heart]

Will you ask for nerf for the next best after AP gets nerfed then?

[grizzled sable]

Maybe for a specific type of content or build

[azure granite]

tell me Sore, what is the best accessory

[balmy heart]

Obog

[azure granite]

would you equip obog in PvP?

[rich dirge]

this is like saying riftlock isn't linked to summoner

[azure granite]

or in towers

or in deep endless

[balmy heart]

Yes

[zinc dagger]

I'm against DC on pheonix, and I'm planning on playing Deity Ursa when I've enough money so one of the class that benefits from pheonix the most. So class doesn't mean you can't think about things globaly.

[serene vortex]

Based

[azure granite]

And the other two?

[serene vortex]

Obog in pvp is bde

[balmy heart]

Well I don't need orns there

[azure granite]

Well yeah. Then there are objectively better accessories for those loadouts.

[balmy heart]

And this is not a good comparison at all

[azure granite]

Let's put the accessories aside then

What is the best leg slot.

[serene vortex]

Op was right just take away everything but dc

[hexed solstice]

Arisen Avalon leggings

[balmy heart]

If you were to ask me which head gear or which chest piece is best then I would answer you differently

[zinc dagger]

I would have said baldr

[balmy heart]

That is a very based question

[balmy heart]

Arisen Riftrogue boots

[azure granite]

I could've asked Head or Chest, and there would still not be a definite answer

[balmy heart]

I use Oonc

[azure granite]

you can say OONC and you can say OFYC

[serene vortex]

Fallen sky no contest

[balmy heart]

And Arisen Riftrogue chest

[azure granite]

but there are objectively better pieces than those at doing different jobs

[serene vortex]

You please casting ward upkeep wasting turns

[azure granite]

Be it boosters, special effects, immunities, resistances

[balmy heart]

Nothing better than them at what you mentioned

I literally use only these in everything except orn or xp.runs

[azure granite]

would an avalon crown not be better for swashing than OONC?

[balmy heart]

That's a situational aspect

[azure granite]

would charon headpiece not be better at boosting pact damage?

[quasi saddle]

Egbert's point is that there are alot of variation for builds but for not for pet wise.

[azure granite]

Yes. It's a situational aspect.

[balmy heart]

But I don't use pact attacks

[azure granite]

There is no situational aspect with Phoenix.

I take that back

there is VERY LITTLE situational aspect with Phoenix*

[verbal adder]

different pets for buffing in endless
different pets for consistent carry builds

[balmy heart]

I only use phoenix in towers and endless

[serene vortex]

Make DC 50% effective on non God classes

[verbal adder]

sure pets are useless after they give their perma buffs in endless, but its still situational

[balmy heart]

I use chimera everywhere else with RS

[ornate fulcrum]

buffing for endless can be replaced by skills. Phoenix will be used in endless regardless.

[verbal adder]

endless nerfed = no more reason to run endless for rewards, heck even now its better to run boss horde

[balmy heart]

Gilga uses golems in PvP

Heretic uses lotan and dragons in Raiding

[ornate fulcrum]

???

Heretics use Phoenix more than lotan.

For raiding.

[balmy heart]

True

[verbal adder]

because they cant optimize their ultima ^

[ornate fulcrum]

Also you wouldn't use lotan or any dragons for raids that already have a weakness

[balmy heart]

But it's not that every one uses only Phoenix

[verbal adder]

oops wrong reply

[zinc dagger]

reason n1 : in therm of keys, I've no key.

[ornate fulcrum]

also gilgas using golem is only for defending pvp.

[verbal adder]

thats ur issue, its supposed to be key positives unless these kind of balor events atm

[rich dirge]

off topic but t10 boss horde is pretty much net key neutral.

[ornate fulcrum]

Which means, ai controlled

[serene vortex]

Based take very true

[rich dirge]

just boost ur luck should be ok

[verbal adder]

sorry wrong reply, but yeah

[zinc dagger]

I somehow read hard horde boss and was slapped by the 75 key cost

[azure granite]

Focus, people.

[quasi saddle]

There are 2 kind of buffs. Perm and temp. Zerk are perm buff that people usually used and dump the pet aside and stick to good temp buff with good uptime. Phoenix pet meet that exact criteria of providing a good temp buff.

[rich dirge]

another question.... even if pheonix is used in many situations.... is that a bad thing?

[verbal adder]

no one says hard

[serene vortex]

If DC was 50% effective on non god classes then people would run other pets

[quasi saddle]

There isn't any other good temp buff pet around.

[verbal adder]

with this, eventually people are gonna target deities to be nerfed

[azure granite]

The thing is, they'd still use phoenix.

[serene vortex]

We suck already

[azure granite]

Because even at 50% effectiveness DC would mean the pet still has ward upkeep, damage, block chance, and 50% to att, mag, def, res and dex

[rich dirge]

pheonix nerf is a slippery slope. nerf this pet, what's gonna stop people complaining about the pet that does DB

[azure granite]

Whereas chimera, per example, gives 50% to damage, and that's it

[serene vortex]

I'm with op on that, ditch all but DC

If you don't wear fallen sky legs for infinite ward i don't think we can be friends

[verbal adder]

honestly, even with DC only these peoples would still want to nerf AP later down the line imo

[zinc dagger]

that's when atlas kicks in

[balmy heart]

The thing is that nerfing AP means nerfing few classes very badly for half the content

[verbal adder]

a lot classes*

[azure granite]

Nerfing new classes?

[rich dirge]

yeah every class

[ornate fulcrum]

Nerf DC ward turn on AP won't few classes at all

[rich dirge]

except GS

[serene vortex]

Delete ward upkeep on DC as a skill entirely

[zinc dagger]

omg why nerf summoner ?

[serene vortex]

You don't get hit anyway ull be ight

[azure granite]

Orion, please take it easy with the sarcastic attitude

[zinc dagger]

technically GS is one of the main user of the skill DC

[azure granite]

Oh, I.. took it the other way around, my bad

😅

[hexed solstice]

Well it takes 3 turns and gives back 2 shouldn't be a problem at all

[zinc dagger]

yes it actually would be a real nerf as the summoner should have to use more ward skills slowing your rhada loop

[azure granite]

it is a problem when phoenix uses it in 1 turn

[hexed solstice]

Atleast than one actually has to upkeep ward

[azure granite]

BUT it is the least of phoenix's problems

[serene vortex]

You just h8 pheonix

[rich dirge]

why not just make DC a 1 turn skill...then pehoenix would be useless

[serene vortex]

Now that he looks cool everyone's ripping on my boy

[zinc dagger]

make DC a 1 turn skill that can fail on non god class

[serene vortex]

Buff every class by 100% and remove DC and give the God classes something godly

[rich dirge]

what fail percentage do u suggest

[primal tree]

What if when DC procs the phoenix is disabled until you no longer have DC then it reactivates? So while you have DC active you.don't get the protect or ward turns

[zinc dagger]

30% to keep it somehow a 3 turn skill

[serene vortex]

Make the Sacra skills worth anything at all

[azure granite]

Okay now I'll have to actually ask to ease it with the non-serious demeanor.

[rich dirge]

and god classes make it a 100% cchance?

[knotty burrow]

Same as the Summon Scarecrow

[rich dirge]

i have no idea what the percentage is for that

[quasi saddle]

25% success chance - Summon Scarecrow

[knotty burrow]

High

[zinc dagger]

of course, you think 30% is too high ? we can go in calls territory if you want ? (sorry egbert, last time)

[rich dirge]

XD

[verbal adder]

people after the change : nerf deity

[rich dirge]

oh nu

[serene vortex]

The God classes have nothing unique to them other then DC and now with towers you can sacrifice auto DC for auto lugus

[zinc dagger]

IMO changing DC like that would actually be a buff because you could use it in dungeons where you don't have 3 turn in a row (for beo and summoners)

[azure granite]

This does not pertrain to the phoenix discussion.

[serene vortex]

Doesn't it?

[rich dirge]

pheonix is tied to deity ara

without it, ara is absolute trash

[quasi saddle]

Fundamentally, the problem is the instant cast DC and high uptime due to gears/adornments.

[serene vortex]

And usra... the 3 that actually it

[zinc dagger]

same goes for ursa

[rich dirge]

yup

[azure granite]

God classes' lack of uniqueness is not in question here. If you wish to discuss it, create a separate thread or make a suggestion

[knotty burrow]

Deific Channel is not the problem here

[serene vortex]

I think there the same issue because DC is a God class skill

[knotty burrow]

But a pet giving it away as if nothing

[zinc dagger]

it somehow is, as the problem with pheonix is something that should be part of deity identity

[azure granite]

Deific Channel as an ability is fine.
Phoenix having Deific Channel is questionable.

[serene vortex]

Do you think it should have DC removed conpletly?

[azure granite]

Not necessarily wrong. Just questionable

[rich dirge]

orion's point is that a pheonix nerf is hurting NF's intent in designing celestial deity classes (orion if i misinterpreted plz lmk)

[azure granite]

No. I think it should have an opportunity cost.

[zinc dagger]

if deific channel really had a miss chance it would nerf it while buffing the self cast of it.

[ornate fulcrum]

Thats false.

The intent of the class is for people to try here own builds.

[serene vortex]

How do you mean?

[azure granite]

This has been discussed time and time again, and we're not going anywhere

[rich dirge]

the arugment is that NF designed deity celestials to be paired with pheonix - tho separate discussion

[ornate fulcrum]

Its not an arguement. They designed it for playstyle, not for pet

[serene vortex]

Real

[ornate fulcrum]

Different nuance

[rich dirge]

if not for pet, then why remove auto DC chance

[serene vortex]

I can't imagine Ursa or Ara without pheonix

[zinc dagger]

don't get me wrong, I indeed said that pheonix was at its peak on deity celestials, but I'm all for a pheonix nerf and DC to be given back to deities

[rich dirge]

ima deity main so even if i disagree with pheonix nerf, i'd be happy to buff my main class lol

[ornate fulcrum]

DC can still be used. They aren't reliant on phoenix to deal damage.

[knotty burrow]

Titan, Great pegasus, Skeleton, Stewaed golem

[ornate fulcrum]

They replaced DC with two types of temp buffs

which is more damage than dc

[rich dirge]

the auto lugus proc chance is pretty bad. u are still reliant on DC

[quasi saddle]

Phoenix is not the problem. DC is not the problem. Default act rate is also not the problem. Pet can instant cast multi-turn spell is a problem and also a blessing. Another problem is act rate is artificially improved hence high uptime.

[verbal adder]

have u tried deity celestials?

[ornate fulcrum]

We are arguing about intent

Not about the classes.

[rich dirge]

gramps is a GS main if im not mistaken?

[ornate fulcrum]

No.

[verbal adder]

he is

[zinc dagger]

more "potential" damage, the proc rate of att+++ is terrible

[ornate fulcrum]

I play all classes.

[verbal adder]

well, those new passives barely even procs lmaoo

[ornate fulcrum]

Who even said i was a GS main?

[serene vortex]

Buff the other pets

[verbal adder]

and we deity mains arent even complaining (except for the ursas main i think)

[rich dirge]

lets give DC chance to every pet

lololol

[ornate fulcrum]

Have you compared the procs of auto dc base deity to proc rate of auto two temp buffs

[azure granite]

For the sake of clearing things up:

Once upon a time, when Phoenix was created, DC had a 3% cast chance. It was a rare but powerful buff.
The power of such a follower was increased by adding Act Chance to your pets. But there were only a few ways of doing so - valhallan classes, tamer, bestial eyes, chimera armor and kerberos weapons.
Using these items offers an opportunity cost: IF you want the phoenix to use DC on you frequently, you need to give up adorn/gear/spec slots to have it do so.
All of those pieces of equipment are sub-par in terms of stats, to make up for the act rate boost, making it a tradeoff.
Especially bestial eyes and dooms, which have negative stats.
Then came in the Black(ened) eyes. Which give twice as much act rate, with an UPSIDE instead of a downside.
As such, suddenly phoenix was much easier to boost the action rate of DC.

Since DC has a 3% act rate, comparatively speaking, phoenix benefits the most from the large influx of little-to-no-cost of Act Rate.
And what used to be a "Low chance for a very powerful buff" pet became a "always have the powerful buff on" pet, whereas the other permanent buff pets remained roughly equal in power.

Lastly, since people are derailing the thread, I will be locking it for now. Take a breather everyone.

[azure granite]

Unlocked, please behave.

[lavish pollen]

If you don't want to throw eggs, then, well, don't. As easy as that.

[thorn hatch]

Couldn't we try to ask to NF if we couldn't try different modifications pinned in the channel to test them out on Beta and find the better solution to this problem ?
Instead of cycling / repeating the same arguments and avoiding thread derailing

[stiff basin]

This pet is so good and most used, yet for the pet class beo, does not seem that good. Seems weird.

[hexed solstice]

Are the eggs from phoenix as well
Does phoenix even lay eggs ?
If phoenix burns is his laid eggs omlet by default?

[odd patrol]

well that is not surprising, follower Beo generally wants something that only attacks or has one time use only buffs

however follower Beo can and does make use of Phoenix in environments like endless

[buoyant yew]

Cause phoenix has everything except the one thing beo wants

High reliable damage

[stiff basin]

so if they remove this follower, the pet class is the one least affected?

[azure granite]

In the end, balance is entirely up to NF. They will be having a back and forth with us when the balancing is happening, but this thread in and of itself has no impact on if phoenix is going to get balanced at all

[buoyant yew]

Well Beo hydrus uses it

and base beo can use it for towers

but sure, he's affected less than heretic/realm/deity/gilg

[thorn hatch]

Well at least, I tried 😂

[stiff basin]

what would most classes use if phoenix didnt exist?

fey chimera?

[buoyant yew]

fey chimera or atlas

[thorn hatch]

Chimera, Apollyon followers, Blight followers

[buoyant yew]

maybe a steward golem or something on gilg

yeah polly apprentices too

[thorn hatch]

Yeah Ward golem are hella strong in PvP

[stiff basin]

at least that is some variety

[thorn hatch]

Just change Emberstrike II by Heat Lightning II or Galeseal II
And it can be interesting

By the way, Valhallan doesn't have access to Multi-Elemental attacks other than TMM with Ultima, no ?

[buoyant yew]

There's some pets with omnimancies

t9 ones

[thorn hatch]

Cerus now that I remember

[buoyant yew]

arisen nagg has all the omnimancy 1's

[lavish pollen]

It burns down to hatch that single egg

[hexed solstice]

Respectable

[stiff basin]

what if phoenix had spells like Inferno? it would burn the player, thus having a disavantage

[warped kayak]

How does this relate to the thread?
And biologically the egg would be heat resistant due to a thing called evolution.

[zinc dagger]

then RS will cry about redlining

[stiff basin]

they can use fey chimera

the act chances that people use to get DC would be used against them as it would also cast inferno more often and burn them

[warped kayak]

You're right there, if Phoenix would inflict a DoT proc it'd turn COMPLETELY unusable for realm

[stiff basin]

and also maybe kill heretic 2nd chance in pvp

[warped kayak]

And I believe the goal here is to make AP less powerful in order to enable pet variety, not force a class out of using it

[stiff basin]

beo could start using it more as new crimson

also beo benefits from losing life

[buoyant yew]

Beo redlines too, it's not exactly ideal to have unstable magic followers

[stiff basin]

not everything in the game has to redline or shouldnt be the only thing to do

[buoyant yew]

if you get x2.25 pet stats at 1hp, you kind of have to

[stiff basin]

no because phoenix gives DC as an alternative

[warped kayak]

Although even tho beo doesn't need to full out sit on 1hp (as well as the fact he can't), so if it was a smaller proc it could be managed

[thorny stone]

yeah this raises a point that i brought up yesterday that i'll reiterate

chimera/berserker on some redline classes feels too burdensome despite getting tons of stats, to the point where i actively avoid using it. a.phoenix is the only choice left and its the significantly more convenient choice.

[warped kayak]

It isn't everything 😂

[thorny stone]

tldr redlining is annoying, phoenix lets me redline better. Any alternatives kind of suck.

[warped kayak]

Currently the best class only needs to blueline

It can't dig into the passive as much as realm can but I think it's proven that it doesn't need to.

[thorny stone]

redlining sucks because your offensive and defensive bonus fluctuates with the amount of HP you gain from Ashen Gems (which you need to use so you don't die).

AP provides a buffer for some redliners with DC such that when you lose the bonus from regaining HP, you don't get gibbed.

[burnt mantle]

i would switch from phoenix to chimera if it has instead of berserk 1, berserk 3

[zinc dagger]

I think the real question about pheonix is not about pheonix itself but rather, isn't all+++ a buff too strong to be accessed so easily

[balmy heart]

This

[burnt mantle]

chimera has berserk 1, permanent 50% dmg increase
appolyon pets give permanent alignment, 50% element damage
for mages we have Archimedes, T.mag 1 and 3, this is even stronger then DC

so we have options but they are not matching the phoenix

either nerf phoenix, thus nerfing all players that use it
or buff the others, players keep their power and have diversity

for example, Chimera could have a temporary magic and attack buff

[thorny stone]

Other pets definitely need to be buffed in whatever pet balance patch happens, it can't just be phoenix changes

[burnt mantle]

Apollyon pets could have beside the element alignment, a temporary element damage buff for like 25%

[thorny stone]

pets @ T10 should IMO exist somewhere along this spectrum:

increase player damage by 75% with no drawbacks -> increase player damage by 125% with drawbacks that the player needs to plan around

[odd patrol]

I think the most interesting proposal so far is the “pets have passives” one and I think it might be easier to design passives that compete with some of the strongest buffs on pets than it is to snowball buffs on pets.

for example maybe you could have chimera with a passive that’s berserk effectiveness +

[thorny stone]

yeah that would be really cool

[burnt mantle]

this would mean a lot of work

[odd patrol]

so would rebalancing all pets but Phoenix lol

[thorny stone]

it would be worth it, so many of the pets are just really underwhelming

[burnt mantle]

idk if NF has time for that 😅 but adding a few spells here and there to 5-10 pets can be done

[thorny stone]

Pets are essentially extended spell slots for your character. They should be more. Granting players passives from pets will add more layers to builds

If NF wants to promote status classes, make a pet that statuses and increases its status damage and the players status damage

[warped kayak]

Which is what I'm suggestion over in #1085162509763358782

[odd patrol]

tbh we can discuss dev time all day and it doesn’t mean much because none of us know the backend

Adding a passive system to pets ~probably~ can be done without tearing the game apart though and passives could be added to pets over time

[thorny stone]

this will be like when Wizards added passive abilities and keywords to planeswalkers

||mimic||

[odd patrol]

I know some of those words

[thorny stone]

based

[slim basalt]

Or like when Wizards unabashedly powercreeped the game for a straight decade

[buoyant yew]

I feel like this really is a nutkicker for beos if utility pets keep getting stronger and stronger

but the miserable state of damage followers might be something for a separate discussion thread

[thorny stone]

open a thread about Universes Beyond and i will live in it trashing Hasbro 247 365

[odd patrol]

I was so excited for Glashtyn… and then

[thorny stone]

yeah its.... not great

i honestly do think AP has a place in the game providing DC to players, i just think that place is in a better version of Orna where other pets can do more for the player

T8 phoenix with DC maybe not

[slim basalt]

To me it feels like...

Pets were a 1.5x at best. 1.5x with downsides (assuming zerk's hp loss is a downside, or alignment weakness).
Phoenix was a 2.0x but without full uptime, so it went back and forth between a 1x and 2x, near that 1.5x mark.

The mistake was primarily last year with blackened eyes. Full uptime sucks.
Ran a ~hundred arena fights today to see what a sample of random T11 players looks like atm.

Shout out to whatever fuckin 300iq madman is running Deity/Gullinkambi.

[thorny stone]

for... speed3?

[slim basalt]

t.dex^^^ yeah (which, to be clear, is strictly worse than phoenix which does that while also doubling damage and defenses 😆)

[zinc dagger]

What the hell is a Gullinkambi ?

[thorny stone]

gullinkambi

woops

[slim basalt]

T7 Event bird follower

[thorny stone]

hes got a hat

[zinc dagger]

The brown bird ?

[south matrix]

BIRD UP-

[odd patrol]

I guess they want to stack them through deity passive

Or just like the bird lol

[thorny stone]

hilarious lmao

[zinc dagger]

Can't touch this ! Hammer time

[slim basalt]

so yeah, if you exclude summoners (which can't use pets) and beo/a (which use offensive pets), you have 55 phoenix uses and 19 others.
Meaning Phoenix is something like 74% of all pet usage in T11, for player-damage classes. 😖

Chimera takes a strong second there. The rest are rounding errors.

[thorny stone]

@slim basalt thoughts?

[slim basalt]

My thoughts are in the post with the numbers (should have separated them)

Pets were a 1.5x at best. 1.5x with downsides (assuming zerk's hp loss is a downside, or alignment weakness).
Phoenix was a 2.0x but without full uptime, so it went back and forth between a 1x and 2x, near that 1.5x mark.

The mistake was primarily last year with blackened eyes. Full uptime sucks.

[thorny stone]

ye

more specifically i want to know what you think bout having 75% increase as a baseline and 125% as a ceiling

instead of 50 and 100

[zinc dagger]

What if phoenix was giving a new buff, like t.all3 but when it runs out you get an "exhausted" debuff which prevents you from getting the buff for 3 turns.

[slim basalt]

I don't like it. 😅

It's too much power for the slot. 1.5x is a ton of power as-is.
Especially as far as utility goes, the bigger that gets, the less and less relevant actual damage on the follower is.

I could see a 2x stretch/ceiling with a big downside. Either in extreme gearing requirements or an explicit downside/malus.

[thorny stone]

i dont think 50% is enough actually, or at least the 50% bonuses that exist rn are... bad

already @ 50% for chimera you need to gear around it, i think that should change

[warped kayak]

1.5x isn't a lot?

[slim basalt]

It feels like the original design/intention was a 1.5x baseline.

That has slipped with specifically and only Phoenix, and was left unfixed for so long that people are assuming it's the new baseline.
It's at least of some note that a 1.5x (chimera) still sees some use, albeit fractional.

[thorn hatch]

Fey Chimera with Berserk III is a dream coming true !

[ocean hamlet]

If Fey Chim got Zerk3 I'd use it over Atlas ngl

[thorn hatch]

+50% everything, chonking 999 pv each turns

Imagine Realmshifter with that 🤣

using Berserker as spec

[slim basalt]

FeyChim/Chim/Atlas all get some use as-is.

Surely there's a limping, desperate follower that could use zerk3 to boost it up into sudden relevance. 🤔
Looking at people like... Glatisant, Living Arsenal, Shade of Achlys.

[novel acorn]

Shade of achlys with zerk 3 would make for some very interesting possibilities with Ultima strikes on realm

I'd very much like to see that happen

[hexed solstice]

Isn't sigil less of a weakness bonus than blights

[ocean hamlet]

Sigils are weaker than Blights, yes

[ocean hamlet]

How the heck I didn't notice that post

I'm disappointed with the lack of Atlas(es) in there

[azure granite]

I pinned for people who might miss it

Since actual relevant, tangible data is important

[ocean hamlet]

Of course

[azure granite]

Gullinkambi > Atlas

It's the sad truth

[ocean hamlet]

LMAO

I can't believe this

[novel acorn]

I've had a thought. We have chain skills now.

Give Rhada chained shield and something else Ara vesta 2

Bump up their damage a little bit and there is an argument to bring them into towers for clear speed

Or, even better, entirely new chain skills for certain pets

[buoyant yew]

Rhada and achlys could both use some work, their movepool is literally copypasted from their lower tier version

for a t10 event pet that's kinda meh

[azure granite]

But yeah, since this was mentioned, I feel like I should also add:
Moving the baseline of pets inherently means having to change Beo/GS either up or down with the baseline. Since they are incapable of using pets in a supportive way (Beo needs to use them for damage, not for support), if the power of the average follower goes up, so too must the average power of Beo/Summoner.
Not here to discuss said possible changes for them, nor to discuss their current power levels. Simply to state that if the entire chunk of pets gets moved, those classes do too, be it up or down. Which is also a negative side on changing the entire baseline in terms of quantity of work

Ignoring the whole powercreep issue to begin with

[novel acorn]

I'm starting the campaign to give Atlas a multi hit skill instead of towerfall. I hope the six other realm players will join me in my quest.

[azure granite]

That'd be cool

Throw in a suggestion and I'll hit it with a vote

[pulsar gorge]

Same

[burnt mantle]

it's funny how all GS and beos this thread

[pulsar gorge]

https://tenor.com/view/water-spray-stop-sprinkle-water-gif-11895255

[soft maple]

Just as I was typing some sarcasm hits.

Zipper, I believe you've been asked already

[burnt mantle]

we had Phoenix with Blackened eyes since last year's February
why complain about it after 1 year?

[burnt mantle]

what did i do?

[wraith shell]

nah I didnt 😛

[novel acorn]

I complained about it last year in february

[buoyant yew]

BeoH is easily the best/easiest user of ashen phoenix though since he innately has enough action rate to support it

and can wear smart ai gear

[burnt mantle]

since when criticism = sarcasm?

[soft maple]

it's funny how all GS and beos this thread

We definitely don't need to get jabby to have discourse.

[pulsar gorge]

Just mute him or move on. You're taking the troll bait

[wraith shell]

no Zipper this is not a conspiracy to nerf heretics

[burnt mantle]

discourse from what?
it's just an observation

[pulsar gorge]

But yeah stuff like this, we should start flooding suggestion and start getting broader opinions?

[soft maple]

It may be time to close this thread if it isn't producing fruit.
It definitely seems each time I check in there are jabs, sarcasm, derailments and more.

Perhaps reconvene when folks feel inclined to keep more focused.

[soft maple]

Legitimately just said let's not jab.

[burnt mantle]

please dont be sarcastic

[soft maple]

No. We're all going to work on this together.

The mod team has been worded up, we aren't tolerating this. We get far too many complaints, it's not on.

Let's just start to talk without trolling each other. It's not too tough.

[pulsar gorge]

Trying to.

[novel acorn]

I'd rather see the mod hammers come out. Plenty of warnings given at this point, and it will be too easy to shut down threads if all it takes is some trolling/jabbing

[soft maple]

That's the plan.