Phoenix Followers and the problem of follower choice

[balmy heart]

Since pets are masters of their skills and spells

So they should have some advantages over the players

Just like spec sequencer

It's a special spec which has mastered magic and can cast one turn faster

[thorn hatch]

So you think it's too punitive ?

[buoyant yew]

It's too punitive for other followers with multiturn moves. TMM, mammon acolyte, crimson gazer, revive pets would get hit hard for no real reason

There's more followers with multiturn moves on top of that, but they don't see any use even with being able to instacast them

[neat scarab]

did y'all talk about the nerf idea to make phoenix DC fail sometimes?

[terse lodge]

I'm not sure where the discussion has gone exactly (don't currently have time to read everything) but I think it'd be fair to swap DC on Phoenix out for a new temp skill that's a merger of Gunnr and Snorta, where atk/mag are greatly increased and def/res decreased (say +100% atk/mag ,-50% def/res) and while it's up the affected person gets a 2nd Chance opportunity regardless of class, and if the 2nd Chance procs it consumes the t.buff. Could call it Phoenix Rising and if the 2nd Chance proc'd it'd say the user was reborn.

Edit: the 2nd Chance part would have limits, and would eat into the total 2nd Chance opportunities.

[grizzled sable]

Just give it a unique skill that is a weaker deific like ygg armors

[thorn hatch]

Well, because it's not the moves are weak, but the follower is inconsistent or doesn't have enough stats.
If you take TMM, he can use turn 1 Ultima, but it isn't used everywhere everytime with Beo, because it doesn't use it well.
On the spectrum's opposite, you have the Mend Wall III followers that are used in a broken PvP style where you just spam Counterattack, and if you have less than half your ward, your pet has high chance to recover 50% of it ... in 1 turn.

[buoyant yew]

And I'm saying burying those inconsistent followers even deeper in the ground with sweeping changes like this when follower beo is already arguably the worst class is not the way to go.

You have to think of the impact it has on other followers, not just phoenix

[white eagle]

beo doesn't use phoenix though, because cactus, nidhog, and several other pets severely outdamage it

[buoyant yew]

beo uses phoenix

not all the time but he does

[white eagle]

and diety uses cactuc, not all the time but he does. doesn't mean it is optimal

the point of phoenix being easily the best class, even a T8 phoenix outclassing T10 pets like chimaera or mighty mimic, shows that it is a problem.

[neat scarab]

cactus is only in early T10

[white eagle]

to the point where end game content is balanced around the player having a phoenix -- it ruins build diversity and makes things stupid all around

[thorn hatch]

Even as Beowulf I just don't use TMM and Mammon's Acolyte, seeing them unused further more will be better to prove they are poorly designed followers ... or just simply : the followers mechanic are poorly designed ...

[buoyant yew]

also beo not being the best user of phoenix has nothing to do with forgeus proposal of multiturn move changes affecting more followers than just phoenix

[thorn hatch]

Pheonix use both skills and spells, unusable for damage because of Snotra/Gunnr nerfing the opposite offensive stat.
It's the same for every pets that use both ... enjoy !

[buoyant yew]

Anyway I didn't mean to make this a beo thread, I just meant that if you're going to make changes to the follower system in general instead of just phoenix you have to consider the potential impact on all followers

[thorn hatch]

Impact neglictable if the followers are very rarely used to not used at all

[buoyant yew]

Doesn't mean you should make them go from rarely used to never used just to bbq a chicken

[thorn hatch]

Well, Odie showed interest in reworking unused pets, so it will show the flaws of those pets to get a better version of it

Maybe buffing TMM magic, or improve its IA to use better the elemental weakness, forcing it to use Ultima more frequently, dunno 🤷

Ultima is just 2 turn spell btw

Mammon's acolyte use Nekrosis III, but do late game mage use Nekrosis III ?

[buoyant yew]

Nekro 2 is 2 turn spell, so unless his nekro III is unique and is a one turn

[pulsar gorge]

Yeah there's no player-available Nekro3

[thorn hatch]

Oh I didn't know that ... and yet and I don't use that pet

[buoyant yew]

macolyte isn't bad

he got me to beo endless X

or well, he and phoenix did

cause I swapped to phoenix every time dc fell off

[thorn hatch]

I thank you to remind me why it's not normal

[buoyant yew]

Phoenix is also the best beo follower in towers cause double def/res means you might not die

[white eagle]

dungeons should be like raids, can't swap gear/spells/pets while inside.

[thorn hatch]

Nekrosis III miss often
It use a skill and two spells

Followers use moves that players can't, and yet it still worst because they don't know how to use them and/or they don't have the stats sufficient to make it good enough

[odd patrol]

this is how you start a riot

[pulsar gorge]

Should be its own discussion

[odd patrol]

removing the ability to swap is another one of those things that would uniquely screw over valhallan classes

[thorn hatch]

That's why I don't think DC on a follower is the problem, the problem is all the mechanics around the followers.
The only crime Pheonix commited is to be a very good pet where every other are correct, bad or just forgotten.

[pulsar gorge]

There, I did it. lol

[odd patrol]

dc on a follower is probably not healthy long term, at this point the only thing NF can do to introduce a new pet that many people would drop KFC for would be like

a follower that casts DC more, or casts DC and some other buff lol

[buoyant yew]

Powercreep DC with a two turn DC2 so players might be more inclined to selfcast it and use a different utility follower instead

[robust quarry]

Honestly I wouldn't mind phoenix being destroyed and we start from that, lol.

[odd patrol]

first we came for their blood pact and batallions becuase we were mad we couldn’t hold territories for 3 years and one shot everyone in pvp anymore

then they came for our beloved Phoenix and ultima in retaliation

then swapping gear in dungeons was taken away because someone didn’t like that

and when the dust cleared everyone was still playing heretic anyway

~ orna, tales of the second falling, 2023

[ocean hamlet]

I've been very much fond of outright removing Phoenix (I've been saying this half-jokingly the past months) but I know that such decisions are things no game developer ever does

Phoenix is used almost exclusively by everyone, no matter where you look. It is practically omnipresent.

[azure granite]

For sanity's sake, would you mind telling everyone what class you play?

[ocean hamlet]

LMAO

Gilgamesh

[azure granite]

Thank you

Your opinion is now considered valid by the high council

[ocean hamlet]

[pulsar gorge]

[soft maple]

1000+ messages is a lot.
Anyone want to do the honours of summarising the consistent view?

[buoyant yew]

Summary: People are extremely divided on this extremely widely used follower

[heavy crescent]

inb4 summarizing takes another 2000 messages

[slim basalt]

Everyone agrees that Phoenix is busted.

People differ on whether one follower being busted is a good or a bad thing for the game.

[ocean hamlet]

There were some ideas thrown in but no unanimous agreement happened

[pulsar gorge]

50% "You're just GS/Beo, you don't understand how much it would hurt to lose DC on -Class-"
25% Birdy is busted
25% Birdy was kind of busted but now way worse due to how accessible and strong Blackened Eyes are.

I think.

[odd patrol]

An exercise perhaps: how would you design a pet that people would take instead of Ashen Phoenix for general content?

[slim basalt]

There's been some agreement from all parties that the protect% is really unnecessary and could probably go away. Like, the follower is already doing a lot.

[novel acorn]

The view is consistently inconsistent

[soft maple]

This works, thank you

[azure granite]

Some believe phoenix should be toned down to make room for more follower variety, others believe it is the remainder of pets that need to keep up with phoenix's standards

And some have reached the conclusion that phoenix is so intrinsically connected to their class power that a nerf to the bird is a nerf to the class itself

[odd patrol]

essentially free double damage and zeroed out incoming damage is a helluva drug

[pulsar gorge]

Eeeyup

[knotty burrow]

We can make it more clear.
Ashen Phoenix's DC means any of these:
• 4 Simultaneous proc of the Yggdrassil raid gear ↑T.All
• 100 Free ascensions
• 1 Full dual proc of lugus gauntlet, Olympian pet Titan's protection and Gullinkambi's Speed III. At the same time

[azure granite]

||1) that'd actually be x2.44 boost, if they stacked and all.
2) ascensions increase your hp and mana as well as ward, and they increase base stats which increases penetration, whereas DC does not
3) Accurate.||
Warning: pedanticism

[knotty burrow]

Oh, I forgot about these

Thanks for the clarification

[warped kayak]

I mean..why have dozens of bad pets and drag the 1 good pet down when you can have dozens of good pets

[slim basalt]

If Phoenix is the baseline, then lots of followers need massive buffs.
Surely it's less work to tone down Phoenix (lower the baseline) and then you don't need massive buffs on all the rest of them. Some buffs, but not huge ones.

Also -- separately -- how much power should be in the follower slot? And how much power should players have? We just got a patch full of huge buffs in celestial classes and augments... is it ever enough? 😅

[odd patrol]

as long as deific channel works the way it does having free DC on a pet as implemented means that buffing everything else to be competitive would be a pretty wild undertaking

[warped kayak]

Make pets that are an outright counter to Phoenix in pvp
Make deific have a higher chance of decaying than other temp buffs
Boost the power of other pets by an adequate amount
Maybe have pets that give larger boosts to 1 stat

[slim basalt]

larger boosts to 1 stat
2x damage isn't enough, we need more than 2x damage 😵‍💫

[ocean hamlet]

Larger boosts than double raises huge concerns

[warped kayak]

Deific gives you 2x to everything.
2,5x to just resistance is all of a sudden out of the question?

[ocean hamlet]

Technically we have more than double in terms of Defense and/or Resistance in the form of Atlas, but that isn't a guaranteed proc. In fact it's rare as heck

And even if it was a guaranteed proc, I'll still take double damage with double defensive stats over this, since most content can be done with no sweat

[slim basalt]

It's really easy to say "just boost the other followers".

Alright, mental exercise time. Here's a T10 event pet: Shade of Achlys.
What buffs do people think it would need to boost it into a place where it is competitive with Phoenix?

What about from this month: Arisen Cernunnos?
How would it be buffed to be competitive with Phoenix?

[odd patrol]

ez, give it deific channel

[ocean hamlet]

LMAO

[slim basalt]

hahaha

[odd patrol]

give all followers DC, problem solved

[slim basalt]

That's basically what it sounds like from the "pls no nerf" camp.

[ocean hamlet]

This closes the entire discussion channel folks, the solution has been found

[odd patrol]

i mean, i'm fine with that solution. it does technically solve the pet variety conundrum.

[slim basalt]

Kind of a thin variety, but technically more than we have right now.

[sudden jackal]

I would like 1 Atlas of Olympia pls. With dc ofcourse

The only time I dont use phoenix as realm is probably low tier dungeons when Serk 1 is enough

[warped kayak]

Shade is actually a pretty cool pet with potential
1 turn coup de grace sounds pretty pog
Then you can give it sleep/stun dart and smoke bomb.
You've got yourself a nice utility pet that can proc bleed and finish off heretics bypassing second chance or stun lock them.
Personally against heretics in pvp I'd take that over Phoenix.

[ocean hamlet]

To be extremely fair I'd still doubt Atlas would be used over AP even if it had DC - Would be nice for Raiding, but all the combination of Lesser Titan Wall, Titan Prot and DC would make the DC proc inconsistent and thus, unreliable

[warped kayak]

Against any second chance class really

[ocean hamlet]

Steadfast over there sipping tea

[slim basalt]

You... have to be joking 😆
Or maybe you don't know how the AI works.

Shade, at current, will spam its debuffs (sigil, sleep dart) against steadfast targets. It will do nothing, forever.

[warped kayak]

It'd still be inferior to Phoenix in raiding tho

[slim basalt]

CDG off of low base attack will get trivially zeroed out. The highest damage thing it does/can do is CShad -- and that's assuming you're not fighting a dark res or immune enemy (pve or pvp) of which there are countless ones.

[warped kayak]

So...boost its proc chances to where steadfast hardly has an effect? Kinda like assassin spec?

[odd patrol]

imo the saddest thing is that the state of ashen phoenix right now means that anyone with an ashen phoenix who doesn't want to play hobo pokemon in their keep can pretty much safely ignore the pets from any new event, forever, unless NF power creeps phoenix ... which ... is maybe not the best idea?

[past canopy]

Correct

Not great haha

[warped kayak]

That's true.
Only reason I look for event pets is because I'm ready for a Phoenix nerf at any time and I like collecting them

[odd patrol]

yeah that's what i meant by hobo pokemon lol

[rich dirge]

wow this discussion is long

im trying to scroll thru everything

[odd patrol]

but i mean okay, if we're gonna power creep phoenix i'll take deific channel, all double ups, and also it summons a full powered ymir to throw out some blights.

[ocean hamlet]

This was very nicely TL;DR'd

[past canopy]

There's 2 sides,

Balance ap & don't nerf my class haha

[odd patrol]

maybe it can cast berserk too.

[ocean hamlet]

That makes me genuinely surprised none of the Dragons came with DC

[slim basalt]

I think people are thinking too small.

A follower that caused you to stop taking damage entirely (in pve) would be kinda competitive with Phoenix, but the player wouldn't deal double damage.
A follower that caused the player to instantly hit damage cap with all skills (in pve) would be kinda competitive with Phoenix, but the player might run out of ward and die sometimes.

[ocean hamlet]

It also makes me find the fact that pets having Divine Bastion isn't sparking much conversation, especially for all the Gilg mains out there

[slim basalt]

Who cares about infinite defense when you can get effectively that much defense + double damage also 😛

[ocean hamlet]

That's how AP was normalised at this point

That even infinite defense doesn't compare

[odd patrol]

gory would have potential!

alas, it's better to just take 0 damage from everything.

[warped kayak]

Why would you need more ward recovery when you get ward back every turn and also 0 out most things

The only reason I can kill geared up gilga in pvp is because of saboteur

[past canopy]

Celestial ward regain axe + ap is just silly haha

[odd patrol]

the eternal clash of "but muh healthy meta" vs. "but muh power fantasy"

[ocean hamlet]

I really need to get that CelAxe one day

[warped kayak]

How about we just remove Phoenix as a pet from the game?

[ocean hamlet]

No developer ever removes content from their game

[warped kayak]

Yeaaaah

Content

[slim basalt]

How about we start with, idk, removing its protect%, or its ward turns?

It would absolutely still get used even with those changes, and even then might be too strong.
If the ballast can go, it should go.

[warped kayak]

Protect chance goes away it's still instant dc.
Ward turns go away it's just t8 Phoenix all over again.

[slim basalt]

I don't even know what you mean. T8 Phoenix grants ward turns.

[warped kayak]

Only from deific itself, no?

[slim basalt]

Yup.

[warped kayak]

It's got no other abilities that give turns

And deific turns alone can't upkeep your ward endlessly.
The only reason t10 Phoenix is better than the t8 one is because it's got so much ward upkeep you can use db2 once and never worry about ward again for a 30 minute raid

[slim basalt]

deific turns alone can't upkeep your ward endlessly.
It definitely can 😅

[warped kayak]

And better stats ig.

[warped kayak]

Tf it can bro 💀
It'd need to use deific every other turn and it still wouldn't be enough

[ocean hamlet]

You would be surprised on how it can be achieved with all the new stuff we got in the past months

[past canopy]

30min raid 💀

[ocean hamlet]

Sounds like my suffering

[warped kayak]

Random number

[odd patrol]

how you raiding on grand summoner with a follower ...

[warped kayak]

I guess gs would take 30 mins (if summon damage alone)

[past canopy]

So not in the ap discussion haha

[warped kayak]

I'm just those 4 parallel universes ahead of you I guess

[warped kayak]

Side comment

[ocean hamlet]

Anyways Ima sleep now I threw my two cents can't wait for an official stance from NFS about it good night have a good day night whatever blame timezones

[warped kayak]

Sleep tight

[severe prawn]

If PhoenixSummoner is the baseline, then lots of Others need massive buffs.
Surely it's less work to tone down Phoenix Summoner (lower the baseline) and then you don't need massive buffs on all the rest of them. Some buffs, but not huge ones.

[knotty burrow]

Change Phoenix Deific to a new skill?
[Name skill]: Increases all stats ↑↑T.All and burns your HP every turn (10%).

[slim basalt]

90% of T11 is summoner? News to me.
The class spread is actually surprisingly even, all things considered. Except for beo, who is dramatically underrepresented.

[knotty burrow]

Makes you consider the burned HP and you dont get double stats for free

[severe prawn]

Going On, 90% of T10 and T9 is summoner

[slim basalt]

If so, sounds like a problem for a different thread 👌

[severe prawn]

Without Phoenix, the last one powerful pet, how can we PVP Summoners and catch up with Summoners in PVE?

[slim basalt]

If all other classes are solely reliant on Phoenix, then that's a great argument for 1) reducing Phoenix, and 2) buffing other classes/nerfing summoner.

But also: I think your data is suspect.

[severe prawn]

sounds like debuff FEY CACTUS for BSTLA

[slim basalt]

Everyone knows summoner is crazy OP in T7/8/9. T10, not so much.

[severe prawn]

just for the reason that it was being used too much

[slim basalt]

Beowulf actually has pretty great pet variety, all things considered.
Phoenix (when doing player damage) gets used, as does Cactus, Fey/Chimera, Ymir, Fjalar, and Lindworm.

Would be a good lesson on how to do followers kinda well 👌

Even some of the really niche pets get used on Beo -- MAcolyte, TMM.

[severe prawn]

so you really know how to make pet variety huh, yeah, more excellent buffed pets instead of the last one debuffed

glad to agree with you

[slim basalt]

I look forward to your "summoner needs nerf" thread 🙏

[blissful python]

Don’t forget fenrir

[blissful python]

Summoner is just solo party play (party play will always beat out solo in terms of strength)

[odd patrol]

I don’t think summoner discussions are really relevant

[blissful python]

True getting off topic

[odd patrol]

there is some relevant info when it comes to summoners not having access to kfc buffs or whatever but “muh summoner is broken” is definitely not it

[onyx barn]

It is relevant in a grand context.

[severe prawn]

which means summoner should be powerful same as five players ?

[onyx barn]

Nerfing phoneix effectively widen the gap between summoner and other class

[severe prawn]

any one has one pet fighting, what if two or three? Phoenix would be less seen

summoners dont care because they have five

[odd patrol]

Followers and summons are extremely different and have different mechanics

[severe prawn]

Nerf Phoneix, Abandon Others

it can be our slogan

[odd patrol]

Phoenix should probably be rebalanced. It is likely other things would need to be rebalanced in response becuase currently some content seems like it may be balanced with free player DC at least partially in mind. Whether or not that happens is up to NF.

But if Phoenix is not rebalanced, then it’s unlikely that other followers will see wide use ever unless NF starts slapping DC or something stronger on every new pet.

with the exception of follower damage Beowulf of course

But that’s a balance discussion for another thread

(Player damage Beowulf inhales KFC just like everyone else)

[blissful python]

Point was it’s harder to balance it

[onyx barn]

Have u tried using phoenix without investment in black eye and amity? At its default state, phoenix is really unreliable as a pet

3% chance for DC per turn?

Ha

[severe prawn]

it can be standard, just equivent to T10 monsters whom other classes AOE and summoners have buffs so hard to kill

enough powerful to clean dungeons

Nerf Phoneix, Abandon Others

again

[odd patrol]

if Phoenix is that critical to content then it is the content and game that need adjusting

[onyx barn]

Ppl forget in order to make phoenix as strong as this thread make out to be. There is significant opportunity cost and investment to make it work.

[odd patrol]

Becuase someone who hits t8 on February 1 will probably hit t10 sometime in March and then they’re SOL until December

[onyx barn]

No, it is not critical to content at all

For example, A crit build and ultima build can kill raid faster than relying on the damn bird

[odd patrol]

it is difficult for me to understand oneway but they seem to be suggesting that nerfing Phoenix would be destroying their gameplay experience

becuase the mean old summoners will come and kill them in their sleep or something

[severe prawn]

you mean summoners would not join PVP

[odd patrol]

summoner is getting a pvp rebalance already

we don’t know what that will look like yet

the summoner pvp issues have already been acknowledged by nf, can we discuss the issue that’s actually the topic of the discussion thread?

it is possible that summoner pvp and phoenix are ~both~ unbalanced you know

[slim basalt]

True. And introducing pets as strong or stronger than Phoenix widens the gap in the other way.
Similarly, follower-damage beo has a gap when "utility" pets do as much or more than "damage" pets.

It's been covered in the thread already once as an interesting side-discussion, but not the main topic.

[odd patrol]

however this is the Phoenix diaucssion these

[severe prawn]

We use Phoneix, for the reason that we have no other powerful enough pets equal to powerful summoner

[slim basalt]

^

[severe prawn]

it’s ok to not understand as being a summoner

[odd patrol]

summoner is also not as powerful as you think it is unless we are talking about t8/9

it’s fairly flawed and falls behind most other classes when it comes to efficiency

in pvp, it’s busted of course

[slim basalt]

I'm playing BeoH and cheesing everything with APhoenix atm 😆
Also I've been playing the game for almost 4 years. Seen it all before.

[severe prawn]

you may have seen before but you may not forsee the future

and you can build a new t10 or t9

[slim basalt]

Okay, we get it -- you're having pvp problems with summoner. Everyone's heart goes out to you.
Make a thread called "summoner is too strong and needs nerf" and take this discussion ->> over there.

[odd patrol]

that thread is already there, actually

it’s literally waiting for you

[slim basalt]

oh hey, you're right. #1084971196749201454 neat

[severe prawn]

the point is not nerfing summoner, as the problem is not nerfing Phoneix

[odd patrol]

if the only way for people to deal with summoner is Phoenix then there are 2 problems that need to be addressed.

[onyx barn]

I argue that the main reason why phoenix is used so much and too frequently is due to its versatility across all content.

You can throw phoenix at any content in the game and it will function well enough all the time.

In terms of game effectiveness and power rating, there are builds that can match or even overtake phoenix. Lotan/ultima build is imo more effective in raid imo, chimera/full crit is another (since there is only so much adornment for either bull eye or black eye)

The problem with those build is that they are situational and only work best for certain content. They are not versatile as just throwing the bird at the problem

[severe prawn]

Phoneix should not be nerf for the reason that it is the only powerful pet, especially in this summoner time

that‘s my point

[white eagle]

it gives the rather unique T-all up, one of the strongest in the game, AND has protect chance. so yea, it's versatile because it is the single best utility pet

[odd patrol]

^

[white eagle]

Until we get content where a boss steals your buffs, and then gives you its debuffs, phoenix will always be the #1 go-to pet

[odd patrol]

now that’s what I call content

[severe prawn]

you summoners cant use Phoneix, so you want to nerf it

[slim basalt]

That's not true, and needlessly inflammatory.

[odd patrol]

I’m literally abusing Phoenix right now on beoH lol

well I was until the game crashed

[slim basalt]

yup. samesies.

[odd patrol]

but also irrelevant

[slim basalt]

I look at my keep full of every follower in the game, and I'm like... actually you know what, I'll just take the best one. 😎
The one and only one, that has been that way for like two years now.

[odd patrol]

thanks for acting out my story though

[quasi saddle]

There are only that many pets people would use, most of them are just for collection sake. (Ashen) Phoenix is still one of the best even since it was released and it shine even more when other classes have access to gears/adornments that overwrite its weakness aka Follower act rate.

[white eagle]

lies. I want variety. I got the T9 ebon mage dude on my omnimancer, and was really disappointed when he was like 1/4th the value of the stupid red turky (T8). Pet variety, with different pets having strengths and weaknesses for different classes to choose is helpful. Hell, the T10 deer with the magic boost would be useful...but the T8 bird with T-all up is still better than it just because of how stupidly overtuned it is

[severe prawn]

nerf Phoneix maybe ok for everyone use it, but now summoners dont care。

[odd patrol]

every pet doomed to die alone in the shadow of a fried chicken

[severe prawn]

nef P is nerf others

[slim basalt]

<@&448920498387288094> okay, it's getting to be too much now.
Can't have people coming in here and 24/7 accusing others of acting in bad faith, repeating themselves ad nauseum in an off-topic manner.

[brittle token]

Closing time?

[slim basalt]

For certain people, sure.

The thread has a topic and it should be stayed on.

[brittle token]

Open for business 📬

And please all, there is a topic on hand, keep to it.
Don't forget about both the server's rules and the thread guidelines.

This forum is designed to house conversations that need a little more separation than the utilisation of #general or #class-discussion.

These threads are not an excuse to be rude or sarcastic toward each other. If you notice anything seemingly sour or vulgar, notify a moderator and let's keep this clean and productive!

[warped kayak]

The issue is we've went over so many possible solutions and there's always something wrong with each one. There's only so many ideas a human mind can come up with.

Forget about thinking outside of the box, we'll need to think outside of the spectrum of human understanding

[azure granite]

There isn't necessarily anything wrong with any of the suggestions.
It's just that someone dissgrees with them.
That's something people have to face eventually - you can't please everyone

I guarantee you that whatever NF implements - if anything - is not going to please everyone

[warped kayak]

But when it comes to something like this, you have to come up with something that isn't going to mess up a small amount of 200k people

[balmy heart]

There are things that are not right either

They look okay on paper just like RS dorido

But we all know how they are in reality

[azure granite]

Do we really have 200k t10 players? Dang, orna has grown

[slim basalt]

Define "mess up".

Losing power isn't an error or mistake. There have been outright nerfs in the past and they... were fine.
Example: MendWall3 used to be 50% ward recovery in 1 turn -> changed to 50%/3turns.

[warped kayak]

There were joke suggestions here, mainly from people that think Phoenix is fine as is.

I've suggested Phoenix alone gives a new t.all^^^ that's additive, which I believe would also be the very first additive buff

[severe prawn]

if coco cola is popular, making it bitter is not good idea. And we can have Pepsi

same as Phoneix

[warped kayak]

And then there's divine bastion that recovers what? 90-95%?

[warped kayak]

There is a bitter variation of coca cola and its actually pretty good.

Coca cola zero sugar lemon to be precise

But if we're gonna stick to references. You can't have something be TOO sweet

[azure granite]

That'd be adding shadow mechanics to the game which isn't particularly a good idea.
It'd also suddenly stack with normal DC being potentially stronger in some scenarios. But ultimately in a full setup it'd be much weaker. All it'd take is Mag Mag and any other 50% booster, be it an alignment or a zerk or a gait, and the new DC would fall short of all the other pets. Which would make it situational I suppose.

[severe prawn]

yeah zero sugar lemon

[onyx barn]

Pls

Coca cola has nothing to do with phoenix discussion

[soft maple]

While I understand what you're saying here - assume in this scenario Coca cola owns every single soft drink and want more sales for their other soft drinks 🙂

In this case, we're not competing with other follower manufacturers. I'm not against more enjoyable diversity

[severe prawn]

and nerf Phoneix is nerf all without summoners which means empowering summoners more

[warped kayak]

There really isn't much to go off of here.

Either something isn't enough of a nerf
It isn't a good nerf
Or it's too big a nerf

[odd patrol]

Coca Cola is a good example because Coca Cola actually got nerfed - it used to have coca leaf extract, the natural source of cocaine

[warped kayak]

My guy

[muted ferry]

nerf phoenix is ​​not just nerf Phoenix, we should build a new balance after nerfing Phoenix.

[severe prawn]

you give me even two Phoneix and still beaten by summoners the same level

[quasi saddle]

Or buff other followers that would compete against phoenix. That will promote diversity.

[warped kayak]

Sounds like a not here issue

[soft maple]

I think I'd like to see summoner related conversation move away from this thread. It's a different topic, and one we're all very aware has some passionate people on either side of the fence.

Regardless, it's not on topic for this conversation.

[muted ferry]

Or keep balance for now and end this thread

[warped kayak]

Was also suggested and very talked around, but a conclusion derived that you'd need to buff all the other followers too much, and continuously make equally as strong followers in the future.

[grizzled sable]

To the guy talking about how phoenix nerf will make summoners op, please understand that phoenix is also op in pve

[soft maple]

I just asked us to move on from summoner talk for this thread, please.

[grizzled sable]

Most of the playerbase at the highest level uses phoenix for most of their gameplay due to the insane buff it gives

[soft maple]

^

[true topaz]

Dc cast rate to static like protect?

[warped kayak]

That's buff chance, which falls under act rate which is buffed by blackened/dark eyes from kerby

[slim basalt]

That would be a nuclear option. Just make +action rate no longer apply to the bird, so it have very explicit t.all^^^ downtimes enforced.

Generally, if it's "special case" logic then it's probably not great.

I wouldn't be in favor of something like that just because it hurts game explainability.

[severe prawn]

Actually why cant we have Buggane as Follower? instead of Phoneix

[warped kayak]

It's funny how from here, you can see that blackened/dark eyes are what made Phoenix broken in the first place

[azure granite]

We've had that tangent before.

Previously the only way to boost phoenix would take a big hit to your stats

[grizzled sable]

Lol wdym

[slim basalt]

Since we're looping, yeah^

[grizzled sable]

100%

[azure granite]

Either via dooms, best eyes, or other pieces of sub optimal gear.

[warped kayak]

Remove Phoenix, give buggane.

[grizzled sable]

[azure granite]

But blackeneds not only double the previous amount, they also come with no downside

[severe prawn]

not remove

[odd patrol]

blackened eyes are not broken on any other follower

[warped kayak]

They come with MORE STATS

[odd patrol]

it’s literally only the chickens

[severe prawn]

more options instead

[grizzled sable]

Blackened eyes are broken with every follower honestly lol

They are just a broken adorn

[warped kayak]

You'd notice they are if other followers were used

[grizzled sable]

It just so happens that phoenix is the best follower

[azure granite]

Blackened eyes could literally be
2% act rate and 2% ward.
And they'd still he busted.

[grizzled sable]

Even bigger shame is other classes make better use of blackened eyes than beo which is kinda sad

[odd patrol]

well Beo generally doesn’t need act rate

so that makes sense

[warped kayak]

I mean...turn 1 dc in pvp is a whole game changer.
1 turn dc in raids is the difference between 0ing out an ult or taking 74k from it.

[thorn hatch]

Well, doesn't change anything for followers, they can still do Mend Wall III in 1 turn efficiently

[grizzled sable]

Yes but by designing an adorn that gives beo's main strength to other classes is just broken design imo

Everyone can have infinite act rate now and the adorn doesn't even have drawbacks

[quasi saddle]

If phoenix didn't exist, Archimedes would have shine for Magic users.

[odd patrol]

archimedes doesn’t zero out incoming damage nor does it snowball with lugus

it’s not really comparable

It would be good, yeah

~~ maybe deific channel is just too strong when not balanced by taking multiple turns to cast ~~

[quasi saddle]

It doesn't but it would make the player cast DC by themselves. Now players would rely on the phoenix to get DC and use Merlin Concoction to get the same effect.

[thorn hatch]

The problem with Pet adorns, they are additive, being on Beo or any other class will have the same effect

If you made them multiplicative, the more pet act/stats multiplier, the better

[muted ferry]

add more cost for using multi-turn skill to pet

[severe prawn]

Beo can have two pets

very cool

[thorn hatch]

I proposed the followers respects the number of turns of skills/spells, with improved mechanics in dungeons for those kind of spells (finally being able to use DB between floors)

Fuximus thinks it will kill 2 rarely used followers (TMM and M.Acolyte)

In my eyes, it nerfs also the Counterattack spam + Pet with Mend Wall III "strategy" in PvP

[slim basalt]

I do? 😅 I might have. I think I'm against making pets respect multi-turns, but I guess I'm fine with that change + a look over all the existing pets with multi-turns and improving them if they're lacking afterward.

Changing all multi-turn follower skills would be a much much larger change than any I suggested near the top of this thread.
Would pretty drastically cut AP's power without some kind of buff afterward.

Most affected would be CG (for better or worse, would likely just be a full remake of the follower). The MendWall/DB pets right behind that.
Smaller stuff like TMM Ultima, Macolyte Nekro3, uhhhh... Dpeg FA? 🤔

[azure granite]

Tbf Nekro3 has no player access and could by all means be a 1 turn spell

But yeah, the rest would apply

I do fancy the multiturns for pet, but you are right, it would be a massive change

[warped kayak]

@slim basalt sometimes a change has to be large, a complete follower revamp here, would give us better room to think about any further Phoenix fixes if they are needed

[azure granite]

Which would casually neuter phoenix by making it respect DC cast time, therefore severely decreasing its own ward and damage upkeep

[warped kayak]

You'd be -1 turn if it were to constantly cast dc I think

Instead of a constant positive

[slim basalt]

overall yeah. not against a change like that -- but that's way way bigger than anything I think NF would be willing to take on. who even knows what the code looks like in there 😅 followers executing multi-turns in 1 turn has always been a weird inconsistency; wouldn't be bad to fix it.

The question is: would Phoenix need a buff in a world where it uses a 3-turn DC? I would think maybe it does.

[warped kayak]

Maybe. We'd have to see.

[quasi saddle]

What I personally think the main issue is the Blackened/Dark eyes.

With sufficient adornment, you can maintain DC with almost 100% uptime without the need for longer duration amity. Not respecting the multi-turns rule also make it even more potent.

Another example would be Altas of Olympia, it is now the better choice of pet for Gilgamesh if you want to get berserk while maintaining high ward and ward count.

Without high act rate, things would be very different.

[slim basalt]

In raids, not much would change. You'd still have pretty decent DC uptime with all that that entails. Ward turn loss would be significant.

PvP and endless phoenix rates would be decimated. Most PvP doesn't even last 3 turns, and similarly, you're not getting 3-turns that often in endless either.

[warped kayak]

Not much code to be done there.
If command could solve the cast time carrying over floors
And the number of turns needed just gets copied from the little Olympian pet or the player turn requirement

[slim basalt]

Not much code to be done there.
ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[warped kayak]

Well...relatively speaking ofc

But definitely isn't a world class challenge

[severe prawn]

balance always more important than easy to do

[muted ferry]

To be honest, putting useful skills into a bunch of useless skills is common in some pets.

[thorn hatch]

I understand it was a follower specialty that have his charm, but that's the only solution that keeps things simple, without making exceptions because of Phoenix.

[thorn hatch]

It stills a fried chicken that can give you +100% all stats in 3 turn and keep your ward active (except if it spams DC)
I consider the protect chance will be taken away

Maybe the global buff could be the multi-turn casting between floors, but it's not Phoenix specific buff

[severe prawn]

ouioui

[hexed solstice]

Just make sure guys the phoenix Nerf doesn't turn solely into dc Nerf
Self casting is already a chore 👍

[azure granite]

None of the iterations actually wanted to nerf DC itself

It's been one of the most consistent points

If anything, giving phoenix a new spell altogether (Phoenician Channel) and nerfing it has been considered.

[thorn hatch]

The problem of having a reworked buff with Phoenix is to be stacked with player's DC, making it even more interesting.
Imagine Deific Channel, Phoenician Channel, Att+++/Mag+++ from Lugus

Except if we decide to make Channel-like spells working like Gait / Call, unstackable

[slim basalt]

If Phoenician Channel gave t.all^^^, it would not stack with DC (which also gives t.all^^^)

[thorn hatch]

What's the point of having 2 names for exactly the same buff ?

[slim basalt]

it could give t.all^^^, but would be different from DC in some way. it could not grant ward turns, for example, or come packaged with a downside.

that's the point.

[grizzled sable]

Do you think removing ward turns only will be a good enough nerf?

Might be, but I'm not sure

I still feel like it will be the most used pet

[thorn hatch]

ward turn is irrelevant in my eyes, except in Endless maybe

[slim basalt]

I'm not sure what NF's target power goal is.

I think removing its ward turn generation would be a significant nerf. Possibly not enough to make it not the best follower in most areas, but it would certainly reduce the distance it has from runners-up.

[pulsar gorge]

Honestly I don't think the ward turns are as much of an issue as the sheer amount of multiplier DC provides easily for the no turn cost/likelihood of casting. The consistency either needs to get dramatically nerfed or DC swapped with T. ATK/MAG 3 (Or having one of each and thus one is cast at a time and at random)

[odd patrol]

give it unstable channel

[thorn hatch]

In raids or dungeons, I just spam Ward of Balor for Walls, and that let me enough turns to finish the content, so meh.

[knotty burrow]

It would, but at least it wouldn't give you so many benefits, whereas other pets give 1 or 2 perks.

Leave the bird as the free cast DC, but remove attacks and protect chance.

[grizzled sable]

id be fine with that but i just wish we had more follower variety

dont like everyone just having free dc all the time but idk

[hardy merlin]

give all classes perma DC, no follower needed. Problem solved

[earnest ginkgo]

give every t all a dot, 5% for t all+, 10% for t all++, 15% for t all+++ but every turn they stay active the dot increases by 1%

one of the problems of DC is not having downsides

[raw isle]

so, give zerker 2/3 and create a new zerker 4?

[earnest ginkgo]

it would be more like temp zerks

the % came off the top of my mind, the main point is an increasing dot over time

[ocean hamlet]

Realms out there jumping with joy

[warped kayak]

Issue is you can't have that without hurting deity for no reason

It's Phoenix we need to fix, not deific channel itself

[earnest ginkgo]

rework their passive so that when DC procs from the passive diety doesn't get dotted

[warped kayak]

Realm waiting for a W since it's release date

[warped kayak]

You're also hurting the use of the self cast deific btw, which doesn't need to be fixed because it takes up the 3 turns

[earnest ginkgo]

or give the phoenix DC a new name so that it procs the dot effect

there are ways to implement it without hurting DC

[warped kayak]

That's one of the solutions, give Phoenix a new ability but wipe deific from it

But 15% is a lot.

[ocean hamlet]

Not that it really matters since one Ashen Ruby is more than enough to negate the DoT

[earnest ginkgo]

it would be like a zerk 4 but temporary

mutually esclusive with DC

[warped kayak]

Well the self damage is capped at 999 anyway

[earnest ginkgo]

so that they cannot stack

[earnest ginkgo]

if you have only 1 effect

[warped kayak]

Yeah

Or no self damage amity

Zerk 1 and 2 do ~2,3k to me with a 75% self damage malus

With 3 it's already at like 3,3k iirc?

[earnest ginkgo]

my point was, to balance phoenix, give the pet a type of DC that has a balanced downside so that you wouldn't want to use it for everything

[warped kayak]

3,3 or3,6
"Zerk 4" would make it 5349

[earnest ginkgo]

without removing the buff from the zerk

[earnest ginkgo]

it wouldn't hurt raiding but you would have to really think about using it in things like endless

[inner temple]

If u gave Phoenix DC with dots(lets call it Ddot), wouldnt that be a separate buff from DC? Ergo allowing DC and Ddot to stack?

[earnest ginkgo]

.

that's why i said this

you could make it work like gaits

you either have one or the other

[inner temple]

Ah, missed that

[earnest ginkgo]

don't worry, there's a lot of text lol

[inner temple]

Im just trying to keep up with heretics explaining why melee cant get buffs in the other thread

[warped kayak]

While this isn't the thread to say this, heretics don't wanna be caught up to, that's why when Ultima gets nerfed, and melee gets an inevitable and usable AoE skill, a lot of mage lines are gonna be crying up a river, since we'll all be on equal footing and all

[balmy flower]

Leave my Ashen Phoenix alone!😝

[pulsar gorge]

No.

[ocean hamlet]

No

[white eagle]

both melee and ranged need a specialization in order to do AOE. you are on equal footing. both of which are equally impacted by the stupid red turkey.

[pulsar gorge]

Melee AoE =/= Mage AoE

[warped kayak]

You've either
A) alerted the horde
Or
B) not read any of the threads about melee AoE
I suggest going to them, reading them, comparing the mage AoE with the melee AoE, and then saying we're equal

[pulsar gorge]

Melee AoE sucks.

See https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1084736465206001704

[white eagle]

move it to the correct discussion thread

[warped kayak]

You literally started 💀

[zinc dagger]

I just got ophion pet and all I can say is that some pets need heavy modifications or complete removal

[rancid crest]

After thinking about this. Phoenix is fine. Some people used phoenix before this years kerberus. The difference is now many people can use it. It's not powercreep, it's leveling the playing field (the powercreep existed since the blackned eyes did)

Why not have better followers that can compete with phoenix?

[slim basalt]

Please give an example of a follower buff that would make a different follower competitive with Phoenix. 🙂

[rancid crest]

I'm low key wondering if this is a GS conspiracy 😜

Easiest example, and you won't like it...

Have.other.followers.give.

T.a.l.l.u.

P.

3

[slim basalt]

Thanks for the contribution.

[rancid crest]

Or zerk and ward turns

[slim basalt]

Atlas gives zerk and ward turns; is not used nearly as much as Phoenix.

[rancid crest]

Sorry 👹

[rancid crest]

Atlas could use a better buff chance so that you could use it without follower action adornments

[hardy merlin]

oh wow. let's just remove beo class entirely while at it

[soft maple]

Just to let folks know - we will start to utilise time outs, kicks etc if there is continued sarcasm and trolling.

Please read the post guidelines, and familiarise yourself with Rule 1 of the #server-rules

These discussions should be allowed to exist for focused and productive discussion without trolling and sarcasm.

Thanks

[thorny stone]

Pets are always going to be used to increase damage. At later points in the game, if a pet doesn't get those numbers up its not worth it.

Polly pets, Chimera, and Lotan (just Lotan /s) increase damage output but not to the extent of a free DC here and there.

Theres no point in neutering Phoenix & DC in my opinion because after that we'll just be stuck with 100 underwhelming pets instead of 99.

I think it would be really cool if followers had passives that they gave to the player.

Chimera could have a toned down version of beast slayer, Anubis/Lotan could give bonus damage to exploiting weakness, Fjalar could increase crit damage, etc. etc.

Ashen Phoenix doesn't need anything else when it casts the best spell in the game. Other pets should catch up give the player passive bonuses when using them.

[slim basalt]

Pets are always going to be used to increase damage.
This begs the question -- how much increase should a follower be expected to provide?

We're talking about offensive utility pets (as a subset of all pets). Polly is 1.5x, Chim is 1.5x, Lotan is 2.4x for Ultima specifically.
Phoenix is a 2x for damage, and comes bundled with an extremely potent defensive boost.

If 1.5x is not enough and 2.0x is "just right", then just giving Chimera a 1.33x passive effect would bring it in line with Phoenix's 2.0x... and then it wouldn't have any of the defensive benefits, right?

I will say that "give followers passives" is at least something to talk about other than a blank "just make everything else better". 😅

[ocean hamlet]

Why do we take AP as the base for whether a follower is decided as "not underwhelming"

[azure granite]

People take AP as the base because it's been a thing for a long time

the most used thing over a long period of time ends up being the baseline

[lavish pollen]

Because people are used to copycatting

[azure granite]

even if it is comparatively just the outlier

[lavish pollen]

(and then people complain they can't do hordes)

[odd patrol]

weird statement when people are taking ashen phoenix for horde content for the free DC

[buoyant yew]

I don't see any follower better than phoenix for horde unless you're base deity

[lavish pollen]

Phoenix isn't good for hordes unless in a specific build.

[buoyant yew]

slapping blackeneds on your carry weapon isn't a specific build

[azure granite]

Phoenix is pretty good in any dungeon content if only for the fact that it can give you the buff even on floor clears

[buoyant yew]

not like you need any other weapon adorns for sweep/dance anyway

except maybe one ashen ruby

[wraith shell]

what? It's like literally the best pet for it generally

[lavish pollen]

If you need event specific items for a pet to shine, it isn't a universal pet.

[wraith shell]

you dont need to

[buoyant yew]

ok slap 20 broken bestial eyes in your two carry staves then

[wraith shell]

my heretic carry build worked fine with 16 broken bestials

[buoyant yew]

not like you need another weapon adorn

for horde content

[slim basalt]

Yeah... Phoenix is pretty much the only thing I see in hordes. Playing with many other people, many other builds. All Phoenix.
If I'm on carry duty, then I'm running Phoenix.

Autoward means less worry about fallen RS hits. The attacks it has picks up stragglers often. The protect% is nice. And of course, it doubles damage so dance/sweep trivially hit the 1-shot threshold.

[novel acorn]

The more I think about it the more I like the idea of pheonix being nerfed via adding a downside to DC.

Did DC fall off? You get all triple down now instead. Good luck!

[ocean hamlet]

Ah yes, your stats get completely zeroed out

[azure granite]

if there are downsides to be had with DC, it'd have to be on DC cast, and not on it running out

if it were on it running out, it'd have to be a DC-replacement-buff, which would then stack with DC

whereas if it's on cast, you can just make an offbrand DC (Phoenician Channel) that also gives the debuff, a-la mimic's mischief

[slim basalt]

Ultimately, the best evidence that Phoenix is too good is just by looking at its use rates.

Players aren't idiots, they'll use the best things they have available to them. Every war screen, every raid ran, all the horde/party content, tower clears... If you don't see Phoenix painted all over all of it, you're not looking. 😛

The point of this thread is: "it's not good to have the follower slot with such low variety."
Not everyone agrees with that premise to begin with. Some players are perfectly happy with there just being "a best thing".

If it's a problem worth fixing -- then it's a question of how to either make the phoenix less good, or make the other followers more good, or talk about things like blackened eyes/smartAI gear (which, as noted in the OP, did change things!), or a combination of any of these things.

[thorny stone]

how much increase should a follower be expected to provide?

depends on the tier i guess-- 2x (offence & defence) at T8 definitely seems like too much, 2x at T10 seems necessary honestly.

Speaking as somebody who isn't deep in AL and has meh equipment, Phoenix @ T10 feels necessary to tackle T10 content.

And personally, i dont want to use Chimera (as an Alternative because redlining as melee is an awful experience. Phoenix feels necessary because the alternatives lead to annoying play experiences.

[azure granite]

that is a good point, that it might just be okay to have one best thing.
that being said, it's weird to have that specifically just on the follower slot

there's no "best item" for any other slot. no best shield, no best hat, no best weapon..

[thorny stone]

the mod switch has been flicked 👀

[novel acorn]

Having a best thing for specific content = good

Having a best thing for all content = meh

[slim basalt]

||Moderator John? 👀❗ Congrats!||

[lavish pollen]

On the ashes of the phoenix John Egbert arises

[buoyant yew]

I don't think ashen phoenix is going to die any time soon

except the raid

that shit gets farmed for pinions

[thorny stone]

well if it did itd just come back

[slim basalt]

Phoenix @ T10 feels necessary to tackle T10 content.
This is a solid argument for 1) reducing phoenix (since it's event gear and core), and 2) improving early T10/low AL things.

That being said -- it doesn't match my personal experience at all. Granted I'm years out of date, but I wonder how much is expectation creep v. enemies actually getting harder. 😛 Like, is this a question of not being able to do any content at all, or is it about not being able to jump straight into the hardest content well before endgame? (i.e. deep endlesses, hard hordes, tall towers, amorri 100%s, etc.)

[ocean hamlet]

I'm calling it myself and you call this a bold take:
No, it's not necessary. It helps for sure, but you're not doomed to have a terrible, unsatisfying T10 experience without it.

I'm living proof - I have the pet, but I'm not using it. I'm sticking mostly with Atlas / TMM

I'm not denying it's strength though - It's obviously doing an amazing job at making T10 much more stupid easy than it already is

[soft maple]

Not saying Phoenix is getting nerfed as I've heard no mutterings of that internally at all - but just to comment on nerfing OP stuff. It happens in other games, number squishes and nerfs to out-and-out best available things all the time - those games don't die when it happens. It encourages utility of other stuff and can make products more engaging.

I'm not against balancing things out a little 🙂

[ocean hamlet]

At this point honestly APhoenix is a strategically dominant choice

AP is not inherently overpowered per se, it just casts shade on every other follower choice

[thorny stone]

let me rephrase what i mean by necessary because i wasn't super clear--

having used chimera/berserker and then switching to a.phoenix/whatever for melee, a.phoenix provides a significant amount of relief on managing resources (HP, mana, ward).

chimera/berserker on some redline classes feels too burdensome despite getting tons of stats, to the point where i actively avoid using it. a.phoenix is the only choice left and its the significantly more convenient choice.

[slim basalt]

I am presupposing that the best (well, really the only realistic) way to balance the followers out is to lower Phoenix at least enough for other followers to pick up parts of its niches.

Way way way at the top of the thread, I mentioned things like:

• Does it need protect%? If not, take it out.
• Does it need ward turn generation? If not, take it out.
• Does it need strong attacks? If not, take it out.

How does a pet with only DC compare against one with a 1.5x but potentially other useful things?
Or -- how could downsides be bundled with its t.all^^^ in such a way that it's not a 2x all the time, but it keeps its other goodies?

There are ways to nibble around the edges here without anything super super drastic like "remove the follower", "massively change DC/follower logic/other systems", "rework every other follower in the game by 1.5x or more", etc.

[novel acorn]

One place that pheonix isn't currently better is hard boss as realmshifter.

Taking chimera is the better choice as it reliably kills everthing floor 16 and lower because it doesn't spam zerk once it's up. This let's realm get buffs up up without losing turns or potentially dying because an immortal lord uses warriors pavane.

If other pets had niche utility, like an AoE that clears low health mobs without needing a huge amount of +act, thay probably opens up options too

[burnt mantle]

Rework DC for Phoenix. Takes away ward turns instead of giving more turns.

[soft maple]

Fux suggested already a DC Buff applying spell variant with no ward turn granting.

[slim basalt]

Consuming ward turns would be a really cool effect. As a downside for... lots of cool things 😄

Not just "not generating", but actively eating them.

[soft maple]

I think some of the better points could be listed out, whether they are in contrast to each other or not having them listed could be cool.

Do post creators have the option to pin comments, or only mods?

If the latter, the initial post could be edited too

[slim basalt]

(only mods; I cannot pin things)

[soft maple]

Well if a list is put together of the solid ideas, I'm sure a mod (or me) could pin it. Then that becomes editable

[ocean hamlet]

I believe Fux already posted some compiled ideas already in this thread, but it would require some scrolling to find it

[thorny stone]

one thing about the list that i will suggest is that it shouldnt just be phoenix nerfs.

[thorny stone]

i think its already been pinned

[lavish pollen]

This?

[ocean hamlet]

Oh, right

It's actually this lmao

[slim basalt]

The list of "buff others" suggestions in this thread is uhh...

• Give chimera zerk3 alongside zerk1 (SansPrime)
• Give all followers passives with multipliers in them (Mintiboi)
• Give all followers DC (someone, jokingly, kinda?)

[azure granite]

There is, in fact, an already pinned message yes

[lavish pollen]

Indeed

So, any extra ideas could be added by Fuximus there

[slim basalt]

When pressed, the "just buff everything else" camp hasn't presented a ton of ideas tbh.

[buoyant yew]

I'm pretty sure some people would unironically say give all followers dc

[thorny stone]

i think we can safely scratch the last one off lmao

• Give all followers passives with multipliers in them (Mintiboi)

more accurately, have pets grant passives (multipliers, bonus damage when doing X, more crit chance, more crit damage, etc.) to the character

[slim basalt]

I mean... it's only about as crazy as everything else. People throwing around 2x's like pillows in a pillow fight ITT. 😛

[novel acorn]

I'll throw something at the "buff everything" just because:

Increase the damage output of all pets so those that don't bring buff utility can at least kill an enemy in T10/T11 content

Cause right now if I want a pet to kill something for me, I'm right back to chimera/pheonix for non beo

[thorny stone]

sneaky beo buff

[ocean hamlet]

Sneaky Beo buff but that could be nicely worked around

[thorny stone]

unboosted pet damage is very underwhelming 👍

[buoyant yew]

It doesn't even need to be particularly worked around, follower beo is bad

[thorny stone]

that would be a nice change

[buoyant yew]

outside of like lv225-230

and gs dethroned him from that

[ocean hamlet]

Even then it's slowly being outclassed by GS as far as I'm aware

I'm only saying as far as I'm aware since I don't even own the class

[buoyant yew]

Beo doing a bit more damage with his fjalar or cactus isn't going to break anything unless you do something stupid like giving cactus a base attack of over 6000

[novel acorn]

Fenrir is right there as a potential game changer but the damage is so bad the health gain is non existant

[slim basalt]

if unboosted pet damage gets a casual uhhh... 4x? then okay, sure, maybe someone's mighty slime follower can kill things.
beo/a would be insanely buffed by this, of course. 😅

(to be clear, it needs some help, it doesn't need that)

[ionic hill]

Question though. All this nerf phoenix talk. How does one deal with summoner benefactor without phoenix?

Summons are extremely strong. Basically scaled to the player with DC up

[thorny stone]

in a seperate thread 👀

[slim basalt]

Yeah. Summoner has come up three times in this thread (now four) in significant side-discussion.

[ionic hill]

Oh. Is it already? Or not yet one?

[slim basalt]

It needs to be its own thread. Or really, just use #1084971196749201454

[thorny stone]

🤷

[buoyant yew]

GS has been brought up repeatedly in this thread and the answer is always the same: GS's strengths in pvp are already on NF's radar

[ionic hill]

Oh. Sorry. I’ve been reading for 20 minutes. But…yeah. Conversation is a bit massive. Lmfao

[ocean hamlet]

That's a given, knowing that AP is a core element of most builds nowadays

[slim basalt]

The best statement about it is:
"If Phoenix is the sole reason why people are able to defeat GS in PVP, then 1) phoenix is too strong, and 2) GS is probably also too strong"

[ionic hill]

Oh. Not sure. I’m not talking about BP. I’m talking about summoners. I haven’t seen any talk about it yet

[pulsar gorge]

Honestly, if the goal is more pets with buffs, why not introduce pets with elemental boosters like that Arcane from the holloween event?

With that kind of thing being a temp buff, you'd still have to juggle

[slim basalt]

In that case, a 1.5x to a specific element would be worse than a 2x to "everything". Unless you mean combined with other stuff.

[ionic hill]

Yeah. That kinda makes sense. Feels like GS summons were made thinking about phoenix. Which, if nothing changes, makes a lot of sense because summons technically don’t get DC. But if DC is nerfed and summons aren’t, then yeah. That would be a problem

[ocean hamlet]

I don't think GS summons were made with Phoenix in mind

That's a flawed design philosophy in my eyes

[ionic hill]

I mean. Not literally. But they are scaled to phoenix

[buoyant yew]

They are scaled to all content, and they just happen to be overtuned in pvp where players don't have the time and place to stack multipliers

[thorny stone]

i think from this discussion the points that i favor for nerfing phoenix are (ordered):

1. remove protect chance from phoenix & a.phoenix
2. remove protect chance AND lower buff chance
3. remove protect chance AND remove attacks

and then for pet overhaul:

0. increase pet damage (simply needs to happen)
1. grant passives to the player depending on the pet
   a. Chimera gives beast slayer with X% cap
   b. Polly pets give X% damage bonus when using Y element
   c. Alchys gives X% damage bonus which increases with each successful crit
   d. etc. etc.

the design space for pets giving passives to players is there and should happen

[buoyant yew]

multipliers summons don't have reliable access to

outside of like, stupidly long endless setups

[pulsar gorge]

I mean, fair, but perhaps with AP's buff being toned down or adjusted, the goal is diversity yeah? So then ease back AP to where it's still among the best, but bring out a few more options. Like new buffs for debuff damage, or elemental buffs (assuming ultima loses elemental bonus scaling). Something that has strength like DC but would work potentially better with certain builds

Give alternatives and take away the one size fits all that AP has become

[slim basalt]

If it was the case that we had a "1.5x to everything" as a baseline, and then had specific "2x to <specific thing>" then that might be useful.
We kinda sorta see that already with Lotan being a 2.4x to Ultima damage while not providing large defensive benefits.

[pulsar gorge]

Mhm. That was where I was thinking. Stuff that is a good choice but for more specific options

The more I think about it, the more I feel like GM, Berserk, and DC on followers might be the source of the issue

Since they're arguable one size fits all followers

[thorny stone]

suggestion: Phoenix Ara and Phoenix Ursa ||_ _||

[pulsar gorge]

[buoyant yew]

Heretic ara follower pls

I'll cast the sigils, follower makes them go boom

[pulsar gorge]

Would be cool

Lyon's Mark the skill and Lyon's execution follower only

[azure granite]

[Burn Out] to replace [Deific Channel]
[Burn Out] Applies t.Att and t.Mag , but gives Waterblight

Keeps the 2x to offenses, loses the 2x to defenses, and adds a situationally dangerous debuff.

[pulsar gorge]

Maybe get inflicted with burn?

[azure granite]

Possible and thematic, yeah. Though a burn reduces offenses by a chunk, which could potentially be counterintuitive

[wraith shell]

then it wouldn't work on redline classes anymore

[pulsar gorge]

Fair, but it's also indiscriminate compared to waterblight which can be semi countered frozenguard/water aligned armor

[burnt mantle]

Absolutely ruin redlining tbh.

[wraith shell]

any type of dot effect is a no go as a debuff for that reason

[pulsar gorge]

Oh yeah true.

Forgot about the redliners, sorry dudes

[azure granite]

I do think having a situationally counterable thing is nice. Having to grab a water enchanted piece of gear to use phoenix would be nice. That being said, I'm not 100% sure on what the interaction between blights and resistances are

I.. genuinely do not remember

[pulsar gorge]

Get inflicted with doom. Finish your raid quick sucker

[buoyant yew]

You can be both weak and resistant to an element at the same time

and both multis will apply

[pulsar gorge]

How about reduced healing effectiveness?

[azure granite]

I see. thanks inarin

[buoyant yew]

That's what I've noticed when I was playing around with ymir on the training cactus

[pulsar gorge]

Something like "Decay" where your HP recovery is cut in half?

[buoyant yew]

flame VII did double the dmg of the other elements on it

even with blights

as cactus has resist to the other three basic elements

[azure granite]

It'd make realmies thematically fit with phoenix more, too. Which is kinda nice, since a mythological creature that revolves around dying and being reborn thematically fits with a class that edges so near death all the time

[pulsar gorge]

Honestly that might be a fair way for everyone. Redliners will be bloodshifting anyway, and ultimately high damage rollers will still fully recover with drain/ruby adornment

But at the same time, if you aren't cautious/aware with your set up, you pay the price

[azure granite]

mind you, the lugus with a downside might still be a bit strong considering that you got stuff like zerks which are already damage with a downside, or alignments which are also damage with a downside

though those are permanent and this would be temporary

[slim basalt]

it just means it's not a universal pet.
realms would obviously need something, but that's not fatal to the goal of "increased follower variety"

[soft maple]

Phoenician Channel could also apply a temporary (t.) debuff to defence and resistance of 90%, akin to gaits. So the T.all ^^^ bonus was essentially just offenisve bonuses while the debuff is active.

Still beefy for offence, but scarier for horde carries, towers and PvP

[pulsar gorge]

Of 90% meaning they lose 90%? Or brought down to 90%?

[soft maple]

Debuff of 90%, similar to gaits.

[pulsar gorge]

Thaaaaat might be a little too rough

[soft maple]

I don't think so 🙂

[pulsar gorge]

I mean they're already going to be losing the 2x buff to defenses already, no? A 190% ornate kick in the nads sounds ouch

[raw isle]

i said something in the line of the third but not exactly like this. the idea whould be giving lorerelated pets either DC or great meditation ( t.mag+++) or his equivalent for t.atk+++

as an example i told the T10 polly aprentices

[slim basalt]

Yeah, I keep leaning on that as a concept.

If it gives a package of (ups, downs) at the same time, then firstly that balances its bonus out a bit more.
Secondly, it actively strongly favors getting both positive status duration effects and benefits getting negative status duration reductions, at the same time.
You want the ups to stay and the downs to go away asap 😛

e.g. it could give t.all^^^ alongside t.def-- t.res--. Big offense boost at the start, shrunken defenses (40% of normal under both of those), then later the downs wear off so you're back at the "normal" 2x until it casts it again.

Similarly, you end up wanting "not too much, not too little" action rate. Too much and it'll spam PC which'll keep you debuffed, too little and you'll not get full t.all^^^ uptime.

Lots of interesting effects there. At least insofar as "one possible change" goes 😄

[rancid crest]

I wasn't joking though. Really, I don't see a problem with having a non-phoenix follower give all up 3 and for example dispel or another utility.

And again, while there is a real danger of power creeping messing with the game in the future. Right now, I don't think phoenix is messing the game. And in fact phoenix makes the game more confortable than other alternatives. If the game gets both grindy and attention demanding there is also a real danger of people getting bored.

[odd patrol]

if the game is actually verging on unplayable without permanent deific channel then combat in general may be unbalanced

I suspect that’s not the case though

[soft maple]

The game is far from unplayable without DC

[rancid crest]

Hmm... I truly meant unconfortable. I can raid just fine with f chimera. But can I stand to raid 150 raids without phoenix?

Because 100 summon scrolls is pretty reasonable or even low. Same for towers. I don't need phoenix but it frees extra options in gear for godforging or even farming.

*100 scrolls per month

[hardy merlin]

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. Whenever I suggested that some kind of GS variant should have access to weakened followers, there's always people accusing me of wanting to "abuse the OP phoenix as GS!"
Ashen phoenix is like an embodiment of OverPower. I can't even begin to imagine a pet that could come close to what AP has to offer for a general DPS class. Atlas is breddy good for gilga, but that's kinda niche

[pulsar gorge]

...yes, as you can raid just fine with fey chimera

[wraith shell]

remember when I suggested a fallen ashen phoenix summon? It doesnt even have DC and a pretty bad moveset in general but I just wanted a new summon. Well that got massively downvoted probably because everyone assumed it was as broken as the pet

[pulsar gorge]

50dkp minus for bringing up summoner again

[soft maple]

I'm not sure the language from Waifu was inferring Phoenix isn't strong, just that they don't consider it over powered. Both can exist

[ocean hamlet]

AP is strong, but not OP in my terms - If you deal low damage in general, Phoenix isn't going to make you magically plow through content

A very edge case example but that was my main takeaway

I don't have any counterargument to the GS thing though - Again, I don't play the class, I don't even own it

Atlas is good, but it's downside is that it is, in my opinion, much more difficult to obtain

It's still overshadowed by Phoenix

[rancid crest]

Out of curiosity, was phoenix a problem before grand summoner? Or is it because everyone now has blackned eyes when before only a few did?

[ocean hamlet]

Ward turns? Phoenix does that as well
Damaging abilities? Phoenix has that as well
Protect? Phoenix has that as well
Defense and Resistance up? Phoenix has that as well, procs it 100% of the time, and additionally doubles your damage

[onyx barn]

Seems that everyone thinks Ashen phoenix is OP as it is. Without amity and black eye investment

I wonder if the commentor here even tried phoenix without any of those investment

[ocean hamlet]

Before Blackeneds you actually had to invest a bit before making AP able to act as often as it can today

[novel acorn]

It was strong before blackened eyes but required more investment via either gear or bestial eyes which are much worse than blackened.

Then blackened eyes came out and there is now 0 investment or gear choice required. Just slap blackened in everything and off you go

[ocean hamlet]

Folks were technically forced to run with AKerby weapons

[rancid crest]

So is it bad that people can improve their builds and play the game faster and more confortably?

Ascension level nerf/ban when?

[novel acorn]

That is a loaded question if I've ever seen one

[ocean hamlet]

I'm not going to comment on the boldness of this whateverism question, but instead I'm going to show this screenshot that has been posted yesterday in this very thread

Do you think this is fine?

[warped kayak]

i don't see the problem

[rancid crest]

No, I think we need new followers that are competitive with AP or improvements to prexisting followers (adding zerk 3 to chimera was mentioned and that sounds good)

[warped kayak]

#1085162509763358782

[ocean hamlet]

It may be me just being ignorant as heck, but why are you folks so hellbent on wanting to have other followers be made stronger instead of reducing the power of the only outlier?

Like, I genuinely want to know

[onyx barn]

Make the game easier and faster?

[ocean hamlet]

As if the game wasn't easy and fast already

[onyx barn]

There ia enough grind in this game

[rancid crest]

This

[onyx barn]

Maybe for u, but not everyone has time for this game 24/7

[slim basalt]

People that don't play 24/7 should still have better follower choices.

[onyx barn]

Pls

[novel acorn]

If we are really going to use the argument that the only reason you can make progress and grind in orna is because of the relative power of pheonix, then there is even more reason to bring it down in power and then reexamine the rest of the game

[onyx barn]

I am replying to waifu on why some ppl want to make other follower stronger

[warped kayak]

but on that note:
every possible view has already been seen in this thread
some think phoenix needs to be completely reworked,
some think deific needs to be redone
some think phoenix should be wiped from the game as a pet entirely
others think that all the other pets need a substantial buff to compete with it
some have suggested that a new similar, non stackable skill is used by AP instead of dc (where you can either have that, or the self cast dc, but just like snotra/gunnr not at the same time)

[slim basalt]

... So, phoenix should be slightly nerfed, other pets should be buffed, and then they'll have more choices.

[onyx barn]

Thats fair to me fuximus

[ocean hamlet]

It's much easier said than done

[soft maple]

Nah, I tell Odie to "just" do things all the time. Ez pz

[ocean hamlet]

Just remove AP trust me best solution

This discussion wouldn't have happened if AP didn't exist in the first place

[warped kayak]

but none of the suggestions that have been made so far (except fuximus' for now) were adequate enough or were too big of a nerf, someone always seems to be displeased. can't help that.
everyone is stubborn here, many understand the position AP is in and where it puts the game, others understand it and want it to stay that way.

[rancid crest]

Sounds good. But again I think slightly is the key word there. Taking the ward turns out for example sound reasonable to me. Adding downsides doesn't.

[slim basalt]

The goal, imo, is to make it iterative. If you try to put everything into one "big bang" change it'll absolutely never ever happen.

I think the safe things atm are stuff like "remove protect%", "remove ward turn generation".
And if it's still dominant, then know that more changes are coming.

"Just buff all other followers" = "big bang". Very very hard to do something like that in one gigantic patch.

[onyx barn]

Good way to start a riot, if u didnt realise how emotive this discussion thread becomes.

It is not wise to ignore their voice because you feel you are right

[warped kayak]

problem is if you removed phoenix there'd just be it's follow up, whatever that may be, and that follow up is then gonna be used over all the other pets, and we'd be in a loop of removing pets until there was a handful left

[soft maple]

someone always seems displeased
Yep, that'll happen. The studio will make sure that decision making overall is best for the health of the game. We don't want to be (too) paralysed by fear of upsetting some folks.

[novel acorn]

(Going to stray a bit from just followers here, sorry fux)

At some point nerfs have to happen for the sake of the game. We can't nerf pheonix. We can't nerf ultima. We can't nerf blackened eyes or JoCs.

What exactly does endgame content look like in the future? Because any content odie makes now to be "challenging" has to be balanced around that power creep. And good luck to anybody not absolutely min/maxing they're character then.

[ocean hamlet]

Tell that to all the Gilgameshes that have been done dirty after the first ss3 nerfs

[hardy merlin]

Personally, I don't think that having a perma double stat output of your hero on a pet as healthy. I understand how people got used to AP - I would know I use it as well, but as long as it can perma DC you it will overshadow all other pets

I feel like it definitely should not be both offense and defense. Or at least it should not be double...

[ocean hamlet]

Nowhere have I said that my words are saint and always right - I am prone to mistakes, but you can't deny that AP is ridiculously powerful. Many people acknowledge this and this can be seen by it's absurdly high presence in T10 / T11

Again, refer to the screenshot I reposted several messages above

[warped kayak]

I said it, can't help that. we're all humans with different points of view.
I believe the NF team should take the plan they believe is best, and will upset the least amount of people.

[ocean hamlet]

Noone likes nerf bats

It's natural for people to do their best to avoid losing their power

[hardy merlin]

I think they should make choices that are healthy for the game in the long run, with concern about displeasing people as secondary

[slim basalt]

I don't mind nerfs. Who cares? I'm here to play a game, not watch my numbers go 📈 forever

[hardy merlin]

people will adjust. we always did

[ocean hamlet]

I'm not competitive so I'm always down for nerfs when they're justified

Like, I'm not even AL20

[hardy merlin]

same here

[warped kayak]

I actually found it way more fun to use chimera, raider and the pvp zerk shroom (but those are finite as all hell because i'm forced into pvp for them or to wait for nagg event), and self cast dc

and i would do that, if i didn't need to farm pvp for the zerk 2 shrooms
so for me, adding zerk 2 to fey chimera (therefore event locking it), or having fey chimera cast zerk 3, would open up this strat without forcing pvp

[rancid crest]

For one, I dislike the idea of nerfing a lot of things in one go. And that is currently being talked about. Secondly, and more importantly orna involves killing the same thing dozens to hundreds of times to get the ornates you want/need. So the game's difficulty has to be balanced around that fact as well.

[hardy merlin]

I'd say just give AP T.all ++ instead of +++ and see where it goes

there's always the decent idea if fixing Blackened eyes Act % to 1% at all qualities...

feels like this adorn really stirred stuff up

[slim basalt]

"nerfing a lot of things in one go"
atm we're talking about nerfing pretty much solely and only Phoenix 😅

and the counterargument is to buff a lot of things in one go

[rancid crest]

The comment I replied to mentiones several nerfs that are being currently discussed.

[slim basalt]

yeah, at some point any one of those things could/should be nerfed

not "all of them at the same time".

[small hull]

I agree with the bones of all of this, but has theorycrafting been done to show what would replace/join AP in the current environment? (Yikes there's a lot to scroll through, sorry if I missed it.)

IIRC, when I was stuck without Phoenix when I started last Feb, my min/max choices were just Golem and Chimera. Two (or three) is certainly better than one, but how limited is the pool after a potential nerf?

[slim basalt]

Well hopefully the pool would be {golem, chimera, phoenix...} for starters 😆
A lot of this is fishing for people to give "buff others" suggestions and concepts. It's brought up a lot in a hand-wavey fashion, without specifics.

What would help a lot (and which only NF has) is usage rates. 😔

[small hull]

That's fair, haha. I know I run Lotaan and Gorynych for fun sometimes, but always end up going back to the bird. Nerfing AP would make me feel better about playing around more for sure.

TBH I've always felt like the issue lies more with Deific Channel than the follower, but I don't play enough classes to have a good grasp on that. Why, for instance, does DC always work for the non-gods when the calls only sometimes work for the non-valhallans? Maybe this isn't the place for that question, but I am curious as a relative newbie.

[ionic hill]

Yikes. 90% reduction on defense? Good bye endless.

[knotty burrow]

Can we throw a pool to remove the Protect and Spells (not buffs - AKA Deific Channel) from the Ashen Phoenix?

[warped kayak]

it does, the issue isn't phoenix it's the fact it gives a 3 turn buff in 1 turn and can do it endlessly with enough pet act rate adorns
dc is a 3 turn self cast spell normally (which is why giving it a fail chance isn't a good idea), or occasionally instant on deity when it hits (like lugus gauntlets).
you can say summons on non summoners take up multiple turns and fail 90% of the time, but summons on non summoners is rarely used as there isn't any use of them, people do it for fun or bullying summoner raids.
while deific is a fundamental buff abused via a pet

[ionic hill]

Let’s see how you like endless without it 😂

[warped kayak]

Your sole argument as to why Phoenix shouldn't get nerfed is endless?

[shadow matrix]

I think it adds to the other arguments already presented. Rather than being the sole and only argument

[slim basalt]

The argument against bundling a -90% def/res debuff with a modified DC
... is that it would harm endless depth for many players that use Phoenix in endless.

[quasi saddle]

The selling point for a pet that can instant cast DC is more appealing than player casting it themselves. If the pet cast DC in 3 turns especially in endless, their survival would fall drastically.

[slim basalt]

Agreed. The argument for "make pets respect cast times" would similarly greatly reduce power in endless.

[quasi saddle]

Also for this case, player would have use other amities to make DC have longer uptime to compensate DC casting time. They have to forsake dps increasing amity for it. Also we don't talk about God-tier amity.

[warped kayak]

Who doesn't use Phoenix in endless tho?

[slim basalt]

Beo/BeoA and GS (all variants) for starters

[warped kayak]

Okay let me rephrase that (even tho GS shouldn't even be mentioned since he doesn't use ANY pets)
What player damage class doesn't use Phoenix in endless

[slim basalt]

Only other option really is a defensive pet; specifically a golem for ward regen. Even then, Phoenix is a defensive pet.

||... hence the creation of this thread. 😅||

[warped kayak]

Exactly

[odd patrol]

endless is a special case because of so much setup opportunity

[quasi saddle]

It is more support than defensive imo.

[odd patrol]

zerk pet is useless past setup

[warped kayak]

Nerfing Phoenix would mean nerfing every part of the game that uses player damage. I thought this was a given when the thread was made?

[slim basalt]

No, that's correct.

[odd patrol]

it doubles your defensive stats and maintains your ward.

[quasi saddle]

But it also doubles your offensive.

[warped kayak]

Yeah

It does everything

[odd patrol]

i mean, that's sort of the central thesis

[warped kayak]

Which a balanced pet shouldn't

[odd patrol]

are the fried chickens the best defensive pet? mostly yes.
are the fried chickens the best offensive pet? mostly yes.

honestly at this point I'm mostly curious what the devs think about it

[soft maple]

I don't speak for the devs, but I do for myself here. I've made a lot of comments in this thread - you can search by my name 🙂

[odd patrol]

of course!

[thorn hatch]

If you are nerfing a little Pheonix, yes it will automatically affect Endless prowesses.
The worst is, after that balance, it's highly probable that no one will be able to do as good as before.
The idea of respecting turns is to be more slower to cast DC, letting moments of vulnerability when you're not under that buff.
If you're in endless and not under DC, I hope you have a shield with -75% damage taken while defending

Actually, if you use every tools of survivability to temporize the DC, you take :

• Gilgamesh
• Ymir Cliff Cuirass
• Ymir Coiled Shield
• Full Ward/Def/Res stuff
• activate defensive Gait, or Defend
• Amity with further Defense reduction or Anti-OS

Litterally, the "I don't want to die" build to push in Endless' depths

[onyx barn]

Except for summoner cough.

[slim basalt]

Summoner could not exist (and indeed, for a long time it didn't) and Phoenix would be overused and there would be limited follower choice in the endgame.

I'm not saying there's no point in mentioning summoner, but I have to admit it's getting pretty tired to see it in this thread so often.

Every time followers get better, summoner gets comparatively worse. Every time followers get worse, summoners get comparatively better. Thank goodness there are other balancing levers in place. Such as the #1084971196749201454 thread 😆

[slim basalt]

To be super clear: this isn't a "new" problem.

The follower came out two years ago (jan2021). Everyone said, "wow that seems busted". +act rate was pretty limited, but mages were making good use of the pet even back then the following month (feb 2021) with Kerb staves, and then later filling those staves with bestial eyes. Even with that, it was starting to take over pet choice.

Blackened eyes were added just over a year ago, feb2022. Suddenly it became very easy to load up a ton of action rate while also using adorns that granted actual stats, and ward%. Later in 2022 there was a follower rework. People watched with bated breath as the single most dominant follower in the game... was completely passed over, as if it didn't exist.

That rework did bring smartAI, though. Nowadays, a small amount of +act and one piece of +smartAI = bird DC's like a DC machine. Even less investment needed than ever before. People have started playing the game, gotten 250, and quit in the time it's been since people have been wondering when or if NF was going to ever return to this bugbear topic.

It would be really nice to see the slot open up again, and to see people making cool and interesting and new builds with all sorts of different followers.

[grizzled sable]

I'm definitely for nerfing phoenix over buffing other followers

[south matrix]

I'm slowly catching up on the messages I've missed here, so I'm sure it's been said 100 times after this, but...
This is why I use Ashen Birb. I'd love it if there were more interesting and viable pet options. But without DC being applied, I get wrecked quickly by endless mobs, some raids, and players alike. I'd never be able to do 125+ floors of endless without it. Even as a lvl 234 AL 10 Hera Sequencer, without DC, my damage output sucks in raids that take forever with their millions of HP. I don't have the patience to take upwards of 20-30 minutes or more to tap the same spell button over and over and over to do an 11 million HP raid. I have Demonforged/godforged 190%+ gear, both in armor and weapons, and good options for T10 at that, not the basic mob garbage you can find. Yet without DC, I feel like I can't play T10 nearly as well as I'd like. I simply don't find T10 as much fun without it, so why wouldn't I wanna use it?
Levelling in T10 is slow as molasses and 100% sucks. DC lets it feel like I'm actually able to get somewhere at least. I don't sit here playing this game for hours on end, so it's a shame that using AP feels like the only way for to have fun in the times I do play it

[grizzled sable]

Powercreep is real and a nerf to the most used pet for more follower variety will be really healthy imo

[azure granite]

On the topic of nerfs and endless depth, Aegir got nerfed. And the world didn't burn down

[slim basalt]

we're even stronger than ever before, with celestial weapons and classes.
new endless records are ripe for the taking 🤷‍♂️

[balmy heart]

Because it was there for just a week and not always for some

And aegir got nerfed for Melee classes but it was a buff for Mage classes

[azure granite]

Because it was a mage item, built and meant for mages, with actual downsides for mages :p

[balmy heart]

So yeah it didn't get nerfed

[azure granite]

The only people that abused the busted period of aegir were melee classes

[balmy heart]

And we didn't complain about it. Because it worked as it should have been

But saying it was nerfed is false

[azure granite]

Depends on the definition of nerf. But that's getting too far removed from the phoenix topic

[balmy heart]

According to the definition it didn't.

And yeah as for AP no nerf for it on dc

[azure granite]

Hey @slim basalt , at what point do we just call it a day, write a TL;DR and close the thread?
I feel like everything that needed to be said has been said, and we're just going around in circles

[balmy heart]

As in endless we still use the same setup as we did years ago

There's no new powercreep gear or adorn there.

[azure granite]

The powercreep in question is specifically the Phoenix + Black(ened) Eye interaction

Yes, the eyes existed last year

[slim basalt]

honorable mention: positive status duration amity

[azure granite]

But, as stated earlier, wayvessel alts, were pretty fresh back then, the luck cap was smaller so less chances at eyes, and only 4 boss floors as opposed to them randomly showing up now

[slim basalt]

I read Dangy asking for a summary. It's something I still need to work on -- scanning the entire thread again and collecting all the useful data.
I'll wrap it up into a bow as a package for NF and then uhh... toss it over the wall and hope something happens. 😅

[azure granite]

The amount of quality kerb eyes grew by A LOT, and as such the cost of using phoenix went down so much that it is not a cost anymore

Phoenix was fine when people had to sacrifice their weapon(s) to the kerberos gods, or their gear to the chimera gods, or insert negative stat adorns into their weapons.

[azure granite]

Godspeed soldier 🫡

[balmy heart]

Yeah, well then if you want balance then there should be a rework of many things and not just Phoenix

But well that's another topic

[slim basalt]

many things and not just Phoenix, but also including Phoenix.

[azure granite]

It has been mentioned that kerb eyes should also be looked at, yes

But if you just smack kerb eyes in the head then that also makes other pets worse. Not AS worse as phoenix, but it still brings the general pet power down, including phoenix

[balmy heart]

Well I don't think it will affect anyone then

[azure granite]

For all the pets to be in balance, you'd need something among the lines of
Kerb Phoenix Others

Or

Phoenix Others

[balmy heart]

As all the other pets are useless except a few

Realms will go to the chimera it doesn't need any eyes or extra pet act

[azure granite]

All the other pets are useless is a bit of a bold statement.

[hexed solstice]

Other than some niche builds boosting a followers seems pointless

[balmy heart]

Gilga will go Golem

[balmy heart]

How about endless?

[hexed solstice]

I meant other than phoenix

[balmy heart]

They are for the content we do.

[balmy heart]

Oh

[hexed solstice]

Yeah like i can boost atlas to replace chimera but that's it
And still then towerfall can't clear monsters

[azure granite]

Just off the top of my head, chimera is good for the zerks, polly apprentices are good for aligns, gorynych is good for blights and ward upkeep, mightiest mimic is good for turn1 mischief, ceruses are good for All, golems are good for just defensive purposes

VSS is good for the defensive doubledowns

[balmy heart]

Blights are useless for melee classes

We also need to take melee classes when you consider pets

[azure granite]

Incorrect. Ultimastrikes aside, y'all also have Affinities or weapon enchantments

[balmy heart]

As most of the things you mentioned are only good for mages

[hexed solstice]

Vss will do it anyways without any act rate if anything it needs smart ai gear for better actions

[balmy heart]

And even with that we are no where near mages

But again that's another topic

[azure granite]

This is less about what followers are good with eyes and more about what followers are overlooked because the spicy chicken exists

[balmy heart]

Affinities yes, but how much time do you think it will take for that same blight to appear?

[azure granite]

Depending on the dragon there might only be one blight. Lotan only does earthern, per example.

[balmy heart]

I tried those.

And let me tell you.

It's hell to get them to work

[azure granite]

Gory I think only does Holy and Dark, which, fair enough, is a bit of a hassle

[balmy heart]

Yeah, but what about other elements?

[balmy heart]

And which player has dark or holy faction?

[hexed solstice]

I don't use phoenix so i can say all followers have niche uses and considering the variety of content i always go back to chimera as all rounder

[azure granite]

Covyn™️ ||||
I get your point.
That aside though, gory doesn't need to be fantastic at the blights when he provides so much ward regen

Oh yeah on the topic of defensive pets, it's been a while since I've seen a fey yeti

[balmy heart]

Lol, we can just do woo for ward regain

[azure granite]

Man's got uses

[balmy heart]

Why waste a pet slot for that?

[hexed solstice]

I do enjoy using other followers though like vss for PvP
Carman for codexing
Lamari for defence
Fey yeti for elemtal immunity and ward
And some petrify followers dragons and appoly aprrentices but that's about it

[balmy heart]

Because we have ward of balor 3 now

[hexed solstice]

If going berserker didn't hurt my ward much or lock me out of aoe i can play this game followerless and it wouldn't make much of a difference

[balmy heart]

Unless you are doing endless

[hexed solstice]

Yeah

Endless is rough and i am not good at it

[balmy heart]

The most important aspect which is the one thing which decides if a player can grow fast or not.

And for an active player to lose that just because other don't like a follower is sad and it undermines or overlooks a lot of players hard work to getting better.

[hexed solstice]

It will surely hurt to not have dc in endless but everything else in game is easy enough to be done without a follower and you won't be missing much i
Liked my time as player when followers were utility rather than necessity

[balmy heart]

Yeah, and I did say that without AP realm will go for chimera, Gilga to Golem, but in endless what can be used?

It will become much slower, less depth and this less orns.

[hexed solstice]

Nothing really once after setup you are pretty much done with buffs other than temp ups
Players would probably go for vss or cruel banshee something

[balmy heart]

Vss effects comes after your attack, but you will die before you do second hit against a zerk

[hexed solstice]

I don't know i have tried many times to do endless with different builds and different followers but nothing really tops constant dc

[hexed solstice]

I agree

[balmy heart]

Unless you give a follower which does all- and forbid+ rebuke, I don't think anything will let you survive

And why can players do forbade and not rebuke?

Why is it tied to a spec?

[hexed solstice]

Also players can break temp defences but perma def are tied to followers

[balmy heart]

Well that's understandable

At least there's equality for everyone

[raw isle]

if they didn't nerf so much, the new celestial addorment

[grizzled sable]

sorry to break it to you bro, but the new celestial adornment isnt a player

it gives you buffs to those elements because they arent faction elements

[raw isle]

but is a fact it exist

[grizzled sable]

if it gave you buff to earth for example earthen boys would be stronger

[raw isle]

even so, the bonus damage of those no-normal factions is bigger than faction bonus ( except dragon that is the same, bulkward give 20%, archlys+new celestial for light and archlys only for dark and aglovale for arcane)

[zinc dagger]

I've been using him a lot but only on Deity because you already have DC a little so it's not that terrible. But as soon as I get deity ursa, it birdin' time.

[keen palm]

Maybe instead of removing the attacks completely, replacing them with attacks with no ward turns that are weaker? Keeps fluff attacks so that theres less dc channel uptime and less ward.

[severe prawn]

a good point I saw before is if other pets are 1.5, and P is 2.0

We should up pets to 3.0, and P is normal again

[zinc dagger]

why you people are wanting powercreep so hard ?

[severe prawn]

3.0 may not enough to fight with summoners, which are 1.5x5

[slim basalt]

Did you ever make a "nerf GS" thread?

[severe prawn]

no

[slim basalt]

Go do that 🙂

[balmy heart]

Only for certain builds

[severe prawn]

not nerf

empower others including P

[slim basalt]

Buff Phoenix, and buff other pets so that they grant triple damage, because you have problems with grand summoner?

[zinc dagger]

to keep you numbers
every class : 30 + 1.5
summoner : 0 + 1.5 * 5

[wraith shell]

except summoners cant really buff their summons like players can

[slim basalt]

It is pointless. Please stop derailing this thread, again, and again.

[severe prawn]

GS can be a standard

but its not important

[slim basalt]

I'm sure #1084971196749201454 is very important, which is a great topic to discuss such matters in.

[severe prawn]

the point is we can enhance all followers to the same level

[slim basalt]

Please give a suggestion; one example buff of a non-Phoenix follower to make it "Phoenix's level".

[severe prawn]

even without talking about GS

[wraith shell]

phoenix dc (2x statS) is far more than what benefactor provides (like 1.6x) what is your point?

[severe prawn]

more design, for me, DB in 1 turn is equal enough

[slim basalt]

Which follower should get DB?
Several already have the skill.

[zinc dagger]

then give the summoner the same self powers as heretic right ?

[severe prawn]

summoner already has

[zinc dagger]

ok lol

[knotty burrow]

Phoenix thread

[slim basalt]

^

[knotty burrow]

Im all hands in to leave the phoenix as a DF Only option

No ward, no heal, no protect

[severe prawn]

like Chimera,

or new one

can we have new pets?

but chimera is ok for me

as a rs

[zinc dagger]

why new pets when 90% of the cast is already useless ?

[knotty burrow]

Then a RS with berserk/ Raider spec can out damage and easily 0 your damage using Phoenix.

[grizzled sable]

Last pet balance patch was cool, we need more to bring pets to the same power level

Which ideally would be in between current pets and phoenix

[zinc dagger]

imo pheonix is too strong, it's like being a deity on crack. DC is to strong to be spammed by a pet.

[crimson kindle]

My 2 cents:
-birb no more T.all^^^ instead get T.Dmg^^^/Dmg^^^ (not viable because gaits will be powercrept heavily)
-choose one: protect chance or ward turns from above skill , not both

My idea is make it a top choice for damage buffs with minor defensive capabilities to not completely neuter it.

[balmy heart]

One thing about pets or classes is that.

[severe prawn]

all pets weak and Phoenix is just not so bad choice

[balmy heart]

There will always be one pet which is best for certain situation.

So it's not possible to have all the pets equal

[severe prawn]

and now nerf? lol

[soft maple]

@severe prawn please try and keep on topic - been mentioned a few times in this thread that we'd like summoner related conversation to be separated out. Start another thread if you'd like, or use one related to summoners

[raw isle]

this is good, but the thing is that fenix is good in ALL situations, making the other options worse unless some niche use ( dragons for blights, or cetain pets for beo)

[zinc dagger]

and the question in this thread is, why pheonix is good (if not best) in all situations.

[soft maple]

We'll start utilising time outs, kicks etc. Per post guidelines, have a read if you need a refresher

[balmy heart]

That's because of the content we are playing.

It's mostly horde mode.

[soft maple]

If there's further derailment folks please ping the moderators. They can solve it

[balmy heart]

And for that Phoenix just happens to be the best

[severe prawn]

all pets weak and Phoenix is just not so bad choice anything mentioned summoners?

[grizzled sable]

you did mention summoners a bit up

lmao

[severe prawn]

yeah ,before

[raw isle]

horde: fenix best, dungeons in general: fenix best, pvp fenix best unless beo, raids fenix best unless RS with chimera or dragon for ultima, etc

[severe prawn]

without mention it, the questions is still there

[soft maple]

You've been asked. Thanks mate

[severe prawn]

pets are useless

so P is the one

[zinc dagger]

dangy 'bout to cut some heads

[grizzled sable]

pets arent useless, phoenix is just too good

pets arent supposed to give you a buff that strong imo

[balmy heart]

Heretic has many options with ultima as there are blights but it's not an option for melee classes

[raw isle]

thats why i said dragons and not one especificaly

[balmy heart]

So it's how the game works which makes it necessary to use phoenix

[raw isle]

i like more gorynch because BD

[balmy heart]

Without phoenix RS will die out completely

In endless it won't survive

[raw isle]

but this is not about endless, but about fenix

[zinc dagger]

problem is, people have relied on free DC for far too long now.

[balmy heart]

In towers rs is worst and without phoenix it would be even more worse

[balmy heart]

This is about balance

Which everyone thinks is not there because of phoenix

So you need to take everything into account

[balmy heart]

Dc isn't free.

You need pet for it😉

[knotty burrow]

DC free cast.

[zinc dagger]

All it take to double all you stats is a pet and 5 adornments, I call it free.

not even mentioning the free ward turns

[knotty burrow]

Maybe kerberos eyes need a look at too

[onyx barn]

5 adornment that I can use for crit too..

[knotty burrow]

Giving 2% ward, def, res, atk, mag and pet act is too much

[balmy heart]

If you want to change it then change it a way it doesn't make a class diabled

I will agree with a nerf which doesn't make the best endless class worst.

Because that's the only thing remaining for RS in which it is still considered good

[zinc dagger]

I'm aware of RS problem, I used to be a RS but switched to melee Deity for obvious reasons.

[balmy heart]

Yeah, that's the thing. Everyone is saying nerf phoenix but completely neglecting the effects it will have on other classes.

[knotty burrow]

Phoenix is not a class (?)

Try getting some ward to survive, like the rest of mortals

[balmy heart]

Without it RS in endless is very bad

[balmy heart]

Rest of the mortals have means to survive

That's the thing

Everyone have second chance now because of their new class or specs

They have steadfast

And many more things which helps them survive

[zinc dagger]

technically, RS have steadfast now

[balmy heart]

Without phoenix RS loses it's attack power and will die to most of the zerks

[balmy heart]

No

That's dorido and it isn't usable in endless

[zinc dagger]

also be careful of offtopic, dangy is sharpening his blade rn.

[balmy heart]

I am on topic

[zinc dagger]

RS endless capabilities should not be tied to a specific pet

here we just need to compare pheonix to the overhaul pet power

[knotty burrow]

Everyone loses power and survival if the phonix gets nerfed. Except Summoner and non-hydrus beo

A power that, by default, is locked behind a 3 turns cast skill

[balmy heart]

That's the thing

This is the current system we are using which works with that one specific pet

So you should also take into it's effect on the system and how it will affect others

[balmy heart]

Other classes have new more power skills.

[severe prawn]

do we have a way for vote or something like that? for collecting opinions

[knotty burrow]

And buffing other pets alongside with nerfin the one strong?

[balmy heart]

They already had survivability

[zinc dagger]

indeed, that's why I said that DC as been considered as a due thing for too long. It's the best buff in the game and is quite easy to get. I'm all for a rebalance around a DC rarification.

[knotty burrow]

You are taking a way too narrow perspective

[balmy heart]

Then first buff other pets before nerfing that one

[azure granite]

That's what the #suggestions channel is for, to some degree. What do you have in mind?

[balmy heart]

And you aren't broadening yours and taking more things into account

[knotty burrow]

Phoenix + RS = Endless success
No-phoenix + RS = No endless success

[balmy heart]

Then there should be a solution first before removing the question altogether

[balmy heart]

But that's a fact

[knotty burrow]

Mind on recalling for me your proposed solution?

[balmy heart]

And also don't forget towers

[balmy heart]

My solution is don't nerf DX on AP and remove other things

[knotty burrow]

The phoenix is over powered, and thats also a fact.

[zinc dagger]

what about a buff to atlas on his def/res t.buff ? what's the problem with him on RS ?

[balmy heart]

Because it's just there for zerk buff

In Endless after zerk buff it's useless

And in towers too

[azure granite]

We should disconnect the conversation from endless a little bit. Endless, unlike other content, can have infinite setup. That instantly devalues one-and-done effects

[balmy heart]

Well there's towers too

[azure granite]

Which means that while zerk, alignments, etc... are obviously used, the final step is phoenix because it's a temporary buff that needs reapplication

[severe prawn]

thx, may you give me a suggestion link for this thread? I cant find it

[balmy heart]

Which is for every class and not Just RS

But rs doesn't have the skills and safety that other classes have

[azure granite]

No matter what you change about other pets or phoenix, if the other buffs are still permanent, and DC is still on phoenix, it will still be the endless pet.

[knotty burrow]

Laughs in Summoner and Beo

[balmy heart]

The most important aspect is safety and orn gain

We can't have both

Phoenix helps us with that

[azure granite]

#💡│suggestions , sorry I linked the wrong one.

[balmy heart]

And similarly in towers.

[knotty burrow]

*Remember that the channel #💡│suggestions is logged by command

[balmy heart]

There are so many magic mobs which just destroys your defences

Even with dc

[azure granite]

I can't say I have an educated opinion of pets in towers. They are recent, and I haven't gone towering outside GS.

[balmy heart]

Without Phoenix RS can't really compete in these two content.

And that's 2 of the 4 types of content

Raids RS were using chimera

Dungeons also we used chimera

But endless and towers Phoenix is really necessary

[severe prawn]

I mean the subbmitter for this Phoneix talk

[zinc dagger]

@balmy heart what would it takes on a pet for you to equip it over pheonix (endless and tower) ?

[balmy heart]

There's really nothing.

That's the issue

Unless NF can give us new skills or passives which other classes already have, as a RS there's no option but Phoenix

[zinc dagger]

so the problem is not pheonix, it's RS not being able to play without DC.

[balmy heart]

Yeah

[ocean hamlet]

Not being able to play effectively

[balmy heart]

Even half of what other classes can do

[grizzled sable]

endless needs a rework

[zinc dagger]

endless needs to disappear

[ocean hamlet]

I don't know, I'm just pointing out that Realm isn't unplayable without a Follower, it just progresses slower

[balmy heart]

Slower is understatement