Ultima

[olive plover]

@pale oasisi just saw al the conversation and wanted to ask, could you calculate what you did before without crit?

[pale oasis]

yeah, i already have. the pinned post(s) does not include crit in the comparison numbers

the only things included are the stuff under each individual skill/spell

those 'uns

[olive plover]

ok, readed wrongly that part, thanks

[pale oasis]

I just extracted all the "common" stuff since they wouldn't add anything to the comparison beyond unnecessarily inflating every number

[rapid bridge]

The m1 stuff, is that like, expected multiplier or something?

Catching up on the convo and I'm slightly lost on the math stuff

[unreal hemlock]

in non mathy terms, m1 is how well something pierces. m2 is how much you multiply the damage that survived the piercyness

in mathy terms, it's something along the lines of (att/mag x m1 - def/res x something) x m2

[rapid bridge]

Got'cha. That's not the amount of damage he's doing, but the expected multiplier on the m1/m2 amount?

[unreal hemlock]

well in these terms, since no Mag nor Defenses are being taken into consideration

he's just multiplying m1 and m2

[rapid bridge]

Gooooot'cha

Makes sense now, thanks John

[unreal hemlock]

which gives a general "damage" value

[rapid bridge]

https://tenor.com/view/books-the-book-read-belle-gaston-gif-7494310

[pale oasis]

yeah, the comparison stuff is just "what's the expected multiplier specific to <skill or spell>"

so it doesn't include common stuff that they'd all have (eg. crit multipliers, dc)

[rapid bridge]

Mhm

[pale oasis]

the numbers themselves are only useful to compare against each other. you'd need to slap on a bunch of additional multipliers for them to be contextually appropriate for in-game output

eg. buffs, crit multipliers

[proud needle]

that m1 was already nerfed and there are ways to balance that isnt completely ruining the highest level spell in the game and really the only thing that makes heretic damage compare as a damage class really. One way to nerf it while not destroying it is as they have done... nerf m1 and the next would to be nerfing how achlys souls apply to damage calculation by making it into a thing of 'is it dark or light? if yes: 2% more damage, if no: no boost. instead of raising both light AND dark by 2% separately making it scale twice while also scaling multiplicatively per adornment. this would still make it scale for ultima while also letting it not get abused by that mechanic as much. By the same token the gs passive will only apply once instead of twice which is a big diff with how big of a boost that passive gives to light and dark damage. if you make reg resistances reduce ultima it would be 0'ed out pretty quickly by mostly everything in damage and become completely pitiful just because of how damage calculation works in this game... you can be weak and resistant to the same element and benefit and suffer from it at the same time. it multiplies damage by modifier then halves it at the end of damage calculation for resistances. if they had 1 weakness and 2 resistances then ultima would be hitting basically nothing on them from the 75% nerf to the damage from those 2 resistances. ultima has the weakness that it takes 2 turns to use and no rng based chance of doing it faster isnt reliable enough to say... yea i wont die in endless from getting hit while i charge up! and if i miss because heretic has terrible dex? eh oh well i guess i just die. you lose a lot of ward doing sequencer as well so the damage buff does come with negatives as well but since achlys souls are so strong right now it is just well worth it even if you arent playing sequencer

for single target raids sure it is the best skill. it is also the highest level spell in the book

using fey 5 spells in raids and such before ultima im just saying... they really arent that strong and you have to worry about elemental resistances

if someone used prism wall ultima would be down to 6.25% of its damage

[outer marlin]

ultima ignores resistances though

[proud needle]

i was replying to the making resistances work against it

and not just amity reductions

also charon souls in pvp destroy ultima damage

[unreal hemlock]

I can't really respond cuz I am in heavy need of sleeping, but I'm sure reading @pale oasis 's numbers ought to help the math understandings.

[modest sable]

with their 1% summon stats?

[proud needle]

i do see what you mean of other classes abusing it and not being as good as their own kit

but that doesnt mean it should be nerfed for heretic and deity really

when it comes down to it beo is kinda made to be able to do anything with hybrid monster but just not as well as heretic but they get the option to run super tank and use pets too

[knotty thunder]

What the actual fuck

[proud needle]

just as deity doesnt tend to do as much raw damage but like beo they get the versatility and they get high dex and defenses. i see beo and deities do very well not using ultima and often do better not going ultima sequencer...

where it becomes the most "broken" is when you reach a point in the game where you dont need to worry about ward and surviving and you can just focus on raw damage and at that point you can do that stuff with other things and classes too. there are some things that can be nerfed yes but the elementless damage on mobs and raids part is not really one of them... endless i stand by that it isnt all that great as other single turn spells do better for me since i dont have to worry about using 2 turns 70% of the time and such...

once you reach such a point in a game the other raw damage classes are hard hitting as well and dont have the downsides

[pale oasis]

could you break this down into something a little more digestible than that wall of text? 😅

[modest sable]

summary: please do not nerf ultima

[nocturne nacelle]

Try these this with more buffs.

[pale oasis]

that m1 was already nerfed
Ultima's M1 has not been nerfed

really the only thing that makes heretic damage compare as a damage class really
this is definitely untrue. Ultima isn't the only reason Heretic can stay relevant. Even prior to the latest patch with Magic Chakram/Ara Vesta it was doing okay/well/good.

One way to nerf it while not destroying it is as they have done...
i'm a little confused by the "as they have done" part here =/

it is also the highest level spell in the book
it's unclear how much "being the highest level spell" should justify power-wise. it's also subjective. many folks, NFS included, does not believe that this should grant it immunity from balance changes.

they really arent that strong and you have to worry about elemental resistances
I agree, the Fey spells (excluding unstables) could use improvement, but I'm not sure worrying about elemental resistances is particularly worrisome or a bad thing. thinking about resistances/immunities are okay, and elementless/physical options exist now.

if someone used prism wall ultima would be down to 6.25% of its damage
no, not necessarily. many skills/spells (particularly omnimancy ones, which Ultima is) has variable values for all of {weak, resistant, immune}. these numbers can be tuned for Ultima's case (as they currently are), and resistant does not have to be 0.5x. atm ultima is {2.4, 1, 1} for {weak, res, imm} respectively

but that doesnt mean it should be nerfed for heretic and deity really
sure it should. ultima is the strongest on these two classes (GS is.. something, here). there isn't a question of "is ultima too strong?", the question is "how should ultima be dealt with?". the concern isn't gs/beo/gilga using Ultima -- it isn't a class-specific issue

where it becomes the most "broken" is when you reach a point in the game where you dont need to worry about ward and surviving and you can just focus on raw damage and at that point you can do that stuff with other things and classes too
i'm not sure this is an overly constructive point. yes, anything can become broken because the game allows for infinite strength via ascensions. this isn't the reason Ultima is stronger than every single other skill and/or spell in the game. Ultima is stronger than everything else because of Ultima-specific mechanics/interactions. It's not stronger because of ascensions, nor because of Heretic/Deity, nor because of critical hits. not even because of elemental weaknesses. it just is the strongest

re: "it just is the strongest
see the pinned messages for comparisons between Ultima and other meta skills/spells

[median crest]

Being chakram the 4th best Caster raiding spell (for high tier raids), and Ara Vesta the 2nd, I agree with the second point

[pale oasis]

Chakram and AV took the spotlight (or as much as they could with the state of Ultima), but they're not the reason Heretic is relevant either. they're pretty solid tools in the toolkit, and they're great goals. they don't "enable" Heretic just as arisen riftrogue (or other +accuracy sources) don't "enable" Realmshifter/Realm Strikes

[median crest]

Actually, I agree with every point you make Major xD

[pale oasis]

also, I really think this should be highlighted, so i'll repost it outside of the giant slab of text

there isn't a question of "is ultima too strong?", the question is "how should ultima be dealt with?"

[rapid bridge]

Take away Ultima's ps5 until it behaves

[median crest]

I think from all the plausible suggestions that have happened, only 4 has struck some light:

1. Reduce base stats from Ultima. Imo, this wouldn't change much, since the exponential growth of it it's still relevant and it's just matter of time we would have this topic again

2. Remove crit aspect of Ultima (and rebalance the spell with stats or smth else). This option exists since it removes the future crit scaling from many different aspects.

3. Nerf elemental modifiers (not remove). Meaning nerfing Souls / Bulwark for Ultima, not removing them entirely, but nerf them by X%. This would nerf pure Ultima builds and still have the similar spell for non-specialiced builds. Also nerfing the weakness DMG multiplier could be a possibility,

4. Add a ton of drawbacks, -20% max HP when casted, get self-casted all the debuffs you apply, increased mana cost, etc...

[lyric fern]

2,4 would be a no go

[stiff latch]

3 seems the logical one to me

[lyric fern]

When we are mentioninf Ultima, we are including strikes as well right? Because the advantage for ulitstrikes vs Ultima is damage cap

[stiff latch]

If the problem is the multiplier scaling, fix the scaling

[lyric fern]

Since Ultimastrikea has better multipliers than Ultima without sequencer spec of course

[proud needle]

dev team already said they nerfed ultima m1. see modangy about it. and the as they have done was in reference to nerfing the m1 to be a viable way to nerf the spell without destroying it. i havent used chakram since it was in alpha so idk its damage right now. being a high level spell also does mean something. never said it shouldnt have a nerf or be balanced i was just stating that it relies on something having a weakness to deal the damage people assume is just its damage in general... most things that means you need an event pet to do that with and all but one of those sacrifices defenses of using a ward pet. with goryn the purple dragon you get the ward turns weakness and ward regen so it is a very strong way of doing it. even with a pretty good portion of pet act things tend to resist dragon blights at higher level raids and morri and a couple others even straight up dispel them when they do land. the omnimancy spells do get nuked by resistances and the resistances apply separately for each still. try using them. i have. you can make special ones for the skill, sure but if it is applying true elemental damage that can be reduced by resistances then by how resistances apply it will apply all resistances and immunities... which means just me having dragon res on my armor and dark res on my pants making the ultimate spell do less than even t9 spells at that point. even if you make it where only 1 resistance applies like how they made only 1 weakness apply it still entirely cancels out the main power of the spell almost entirely just with that. not to mention how it would scale with them being immune to one of them... i literally do more damage per turn with an ascension 6 rs using a mf 160% ymir brialliant feathers XD with standard quality rs gear other than that. i may do a little more when weakness and mag up 3 is going on my heretic mainly because i have much better gear and 22 ascensions. And i have a ton more ward since a 2h... and m1 isnt an issue

[pale oasis]

the best nerfs to me (not necessarily all at once, obviously) are:

• reducing the interaction with +elemental damage
• reducing damage appropriately based on enemy resistances/immunities
• reducing its piercing
• removing the ability to crit

some other changes i'd like to see are:

• make it much more clear what/how things hit "traditional" weaks/resistances/immunities. right now you need to use Discord to reliably find/be told this information
• make it much more clear/delete the specificity with how it uses elemental damage. eg. atm it gains damage from +element amities, but does not lose damage from -element amities (likewise for the elemental damage reduction amities)

a potential rework that's interesting to me:

• changing ultima to be non-basic elements
  -- largely based off Deity's theming

please, use line breaks and spaces 😭

[proud needle]

already gave a thing to use as a nerf which is making things not scale multiple times from a single achlys soul and such

that already would lower the damage by quite a bit and remove some of the abuse on the mechanics

[stiff latch]

Ultima was nerfed in beta then un-nerfed long before it hit live.
It's still on the cards to be rebalanced soon (hence this discussion).

(I haven't read the rest of the wall)

[proud needle]

the raw damage nerf was reversed

the raw damage nerf that was being tested lowered ultima damage by half

[proud needle]

removing crit scaling would make single turn skills hit harder than it

and the kind of boost to damage to even that out would make it broken for noncrit builds on deity

[median crest]

Being why I said improving Ultima in other places so it wouldn't fall off from that far

You still have weakness multipliers going crazy and elemental multipliers

[proud needle]

getting rid of crit is a huge thing on the spell. that is worse than the halving its damage that they reversed for a reason before

and really only effects people like heretics more than deity

[median crest]

Well, if most of the best skills are crit based, you would have either a crit-based build for Ara Vesta/ Chakram while having elemental builds for Ultima, Crit & elemental can share Souls of Achlys if not that much crit% is needed for them anyway

[proud needle]

deity already can get crazy defenses and dex along with the versatility to do basically anything by using any gear. the elemental damage modifiers i do agree need to be lowered though

[runic hill]

i don't expect to see a nerf as severe as removing crit from ultima

[median crest]

I don't see it either, but I'm defending the option either way

[proud needle]

ultima the ultimate spell that would hit like a wet napkin compared to lower level spells then XD

[runic hill]

yeah sure, that statement is no reflection of what i think should be done

[proud needle]

there are somethings that are abused with the spell that need to be nerfed but overall comparing it to other single turn spells... well you have to double the damage of a single turn spell to see what the real damage comparison is... and if you are using sequencer that does give a crazy 87% ish average boost to damage per turn

i dont really think sequencer needed the buff it got a while back honestly

[pale oasis]

dev team already said they nerfed ultima m1
could you show me where this was said, and what (may have) changed? Ultima's M1 was not changed in live -- you may be confusing an attempted change in Beta that was quickly pulled.

i havent used chakram since it was in alpha so idk its damage right now
knowing alternative damage options seems like key information before stating that Ultima is the only reason Heretic is viable.

i was just stating that it relies on something having a weakness to deal the damage people assume is just its damage in general
nope, it does not require an elemental weakness to outdamage any and all other options in the game. see pinned messages for the comparisons.

most things that means you need an event pet
"most things" is ambiguous. sure, most wouldn't use Ultima to blow up a random Fallen Leviathan in a pnormal dungeon, but an extremely relevant example atm are all Titans.

sacrifices defenses of using a ward pet
ward recovery pets are not meta, and have not been for a while. they aren't bad, but player strength has outscaled all PvE enemies that a damage pet (eg. chimera/phoenix) are the go-to. there is a gigantic discussion thread about phoenix and its complete dominance over pet usage

things tend to resist dragon blights
also not a thing. dragon blights completely sidestep steadfast and other status protection sources. this is intentional, and not a bug.

the omnimancy spells do get nuked by resistances and the resistances apply separately for each still
this is also partially incorrect. some omnimancy spells get nuked by res/imms, but ultima does not. ultima is an omnimancy spell. i didn't say my piece about omnimancy multipliers as speculation. what I stated is how they function.

which means just me having dragon res on my armor and dark res on my pants making the ultimate spell do less than even t9 spells at that point
like stated in my original post, this is not necessarily the case. multipliers can be tuned on a per-spell basis. this is assuming overcorrection which isn't constructive to finding a middle ground.

i literally do more damage per turn with an ascension 6 rs using a mf 160% ymir brialliant feathers XD with standard quality rs gear other than that
then you either 1) don't have comparable magic gear, and/or 2) are building ultima wrong. see the pinned messages for the breakdown of all current meta skill/spell multipliers and how they compare to each other.

[realmshifter stuff] and m1 isnt an issue
sure, in that specific encounter. anecdotal experiences don't tend to provide strong foundations for justifying balance changes.

[proud needle]

making it to where the fey 3 turn spells are viable to use and spend the turns on though would be nice

[pale oasis]

they... are viable.

[proud needle]

um when i test against the highest defenses you will ever see in a raid... yes it does mean something

[median crest]

Shouldn't be, if you increase the M1 & M2 just even by a tiny bit, like 1 or 2 each, you have a really strong spell! Even if it can't crit, it can still do some wild stuff! It might still not get the X2 DMG from crit, but it has X2 M2, doing the same thing, you can't use a 40% crit DMG amity, but you still have a 50% possitive status effects or a 30% dragon/holy/dark one!

And that's not even saying you have 1 more M1, going up to 5!

It's a possible change, and wouldn't hurt Ultima as much as you think

[proud needle]

look at apollyon raid stats and double it for berserk 🙂

then look at the stats when it is low hp and i still do tons with realm strikes

[pale oasis]

please, check the pinned messages. there's a breakdown of every competing damage skill/spell, and it would do you wonders to see an objective comparison

[proud needle]

and yes dragon blights do get resisted because raids like morri it takes like 10 casts for them to work

[pale oasis]

nope, that is just incorrect. blights don't have a 100% application rate, most statuses do not

[proud needle]

and for other raids that dont resist statuses they get applied almost all the time

there is a huge diff

in how often my dragon applies to morri

vs other lower tier raids

and then morri clears it

[median crest]

You get a free turn when she's clearing debuffs though

[distant bobcat]

Maybe having a solution above to the math and:

Having a elemental exhaustion temp effect after casting ultima. Could be for any element. But it would basically apply a small multiplier (like .X or something) to prevent ultima spam. Could still hit high high numbers on first hit, but the consistency would be reduced. Not sure what your thoughts are.

I would also like the effects of bulwark and achlys be significantly reduced. But it is what it is.

[proud needle]

and i am talking about actually running damage hits in raids on my guy with an rs build that is by far weaker than my heretic one in ascensions and weapon. ultima needs some nerf but not some super massive one

[pale oasis]

balance discussions aren't constructive if the basis for points are from inherently incorrect interpretations of game mechanics. this is not an insult, it's 100% reasonable to do and think because the game does not offer this information freely.

i'll re-iterate: draconic blights ignore steadfast/status resistance and, separately, most/all raids do not feature status resistance. they may have status immunities, but they do not have things such as steadfast (either at all, or commonly.)

[proud needle]

and also with the chakram thing i didnt buy the class yet in the release for it so i havent been able to

i tested it in alpha

and it was pretty nice

but not anything too crazy at the time but ik a lot has been changed

and let me go through the thing and try and find the thing 🙂

[pale oasis]

this could be for many reasons. you could be outgeared, you could be building ultima incorrectly, they could have high rolled. are you certain their damage is consistent? was it measured?

these are things worth checking if objectivity is a priority at all. this is exactly why i drafted that comparison list using gameplay multipliers

[median crest]

Ross, that idea is interesting, but I don't like it because it doesn't bring consistency.

When you hit an M1 skill, the thing that you're looking for the most is consistent DMG, or consistency on how a spell works. If an enemy is X, do Y. That's it, but if you add something that changes by turns and just keeps changing, it becomes obsolete because the reliable skill that you are looking for is not available.

[nocturne nacelle]

@proud needle

[proud needle]

when i test damage i do it at the same mana and i use it 100 times 🙂 and in the raid i was using a much worse build and hitting it several times and it still was averaging it very well. sortie even does wonderfully and gives ward turns and has a decent m1. rs is really good wit ha 2h and trev charms

[pale oasis]

I wouldn't advise using screenshots/videos, especially if it's just over in a turn or two 😅

earlier on in this thread there were some very lopsided comparison images with build(s) that clearly favored one thing over the other, so it made things look much different than they actually are. in-game resources are useful, sure, but it's pretty impossible to trust things that aren't meticulously measured, verified and optimised 🤷

[distant bobcat]

To be fair it is predictably unreliable. The status would only be applied after all 8 elements were ripped through the soul (Post cast). You could spend a few turns casting dc or ward up take ect. For the next time you cast it.

An analogy is SS1 has super duper high pen. But only at high ward, so you need to be at high ward to get the results you want. You want mega awesome damage with ultima after just casting it, sure but you gotta wait while your character catches a breath.

[pale oasis]

Sortie's M1 of 1.8 to Ultima's M1 of 4.0/2 does not do Sortie many favours in competing with Ultima. from what I can tell you're not including many of the pieces that make ultima as strong as it is atm. that'd definitely explain why other things can seemingly match/outpace it in your personal experience

[proud needle]

that is against a high def and high res enemy

even realm strikes was still hitting plenty hard

[pale oasis]

again, not an insult. apologies if it reads like one (no clue if it does). it's just a statement, nor is any player to blame for it. game doesn't tell people anything lol

[nocturne nacelle]

Yep it did

[distant bobcat]

I think one of the issues with ultima is that it is reliable. You know if you win or lose. Realm strikes has down sides, SS has down sides, ultima is multi turn some times.

[nocturne nacelle]

With Celestial bow and 5, steady hands

[proud needle]

and yes i do have achlys souls 20 of them i was using since it was without the new weapons

[nocturne nacelle]

And 40 ascensions

[proud needle]

and bulwark

[pale oasis]

"plenty hard" is not useful. define it and then we can draft comparisons to see what's strong and what's not

[proud needle]

1.6m in one turn vs 3m in 2 turns with weakness boost XD

also uses a pet that does nothing but use weakness

[pale oasis]

i'd recommend checking this post for a proper breakdown of numbers associated with everything #1084736327800606853 message

[nocturne nacelle]

Did you even see the gear that it took to get 1.6mil in one turn?

Vs 3mil with ultima?

[median crest]

It's reliable aside from being an insane high dmg spell. Realmstrikes miss chance can be brought down with Riftrogue, SS can be fought with ward recovery, etc...

[pale oasis]

it's pretty hard to discuss something using vague, subjective terminology 😅

the definition of "viable" is pretty subjective, and you'd described the fey unstables as not viable when they're not lagging that far behind all other meta options. i'd describe them as viable. i wouldn't say it's the strongest thing, but they're definitely viable

[median crest]

Do we still have people comparing Ultima to Skills in terms of dmg and DPS?

[nocturne nacelle]

Yep

[median crest]

Smh

[nocturne nacelle]

He said that his RS with 6 al with realmstrikes does much better than his heretic with 21 al with ultima

[distant bobcat]

Based

[median crest]

How do you respectfully say "Skill issue"?

[nocturne nacelle]

Bob

[distant bobcat]

For what it is worth jump on over the general of you want to talk shop about skills and post a summary here. I think this chat has been full on this battle long enough and isn’t what the OP is about

But I am not a mod or a heratic so please fight on

[median crest]

Fey unstable are still very viable! They are better than the popular non-crit spell Multi element 3

[distant bobcat]

🍿

[pale oasis]

yeah, i dunno. it's difficult to have a constructive conversation if the basis for some points are objectively incorrect. i can understand why stuff gets/got misinterpreted, but that doesn't make the convo any less difficult to have

[nocturne nacelle]

They are good

[pale oasis]

i wish the game did a better job of providing information to players

[nocturne nacelle]

Before cap was introduced, I got around 13.5mil with it

So you can kill almost all the raids except amorri with it before that scaling kicks in

[median crest]

Most of the information I got was from Hidden info (Thanks a lot Major), searching stuff can be a bit overwhelming sometimes, specially new things

[distant bobcat]

10000%

[pale oasis]

yeah, i was talking to some other folks about better ways to access community information just a few hours ago

but obviously this sucks donkey balls to do all the time

[distant bobcat]

It would be really nice. Even something on the stats page that had highest hit with:

And you could put some skills up there for other people to see a “record” of it

[pale oasis]

hidden info is also pretty overwhelming, and I should improve it. I just have to find the motivation to do so one day

[distant bobcat]

This! Or if the word screen posted the damage numbers (hades hit omnistrike 3 for x damage)

[median crest]

For what I have been in the thread, it has always been about diversity of Spells on casters, being Ultima the only one used because of its power. It doesn't have anything to do with skills or melee classes, we have #1087421436995588177

[pale oasis]

wanna hear something funny

i distinctly remember having a conversaion about it has always been about diversity of Spells on casters literally a year+ ago

[distant bobcat]

For sure. I think John broke that out. Maybe I just saw two different rants at the wrong time.

[pale oasis]

same context. "if ultima were to be nerfed, what fills the gap?" back then it was just fey unstables

[distant bobcat]

Shit sorry for the ping

[pale oasis]

same exact conversation, but in a much different sandbox

[nocturne nacelle]

Hidden Info is yours? Wow I really want to thank you for that. It helped a lot when I was boosting others.

[distant bobcat]

Definitely some nice crit options. But that begs the question is twack tooo good? Should that be brought down?

[median crest]

I'll guarantee you'll have at least 1 user, being myself

[pale oasis]

no, it's not "mine". i'd been maintaining it for the past few years (or trying to), but the original work was not mine. a chunk of it has been modified/updated by me, but the core idea wasn't me. it was eazyx's (a very old player)

but i'm glad to hear you got use out of it either way

[nocturne nacelle]

Oh.

Well thanks for keeping it updated

[runic hill]

i don't have enough personal protective equipment for that thread

[distant bobcat]

This gave me a great laugh. Thanks 😂

[nocturne nacelle]

It's okay, that one is much calmer than this and the phoenix one.

[pale oasis]

i mean.. probably 😅

using the tried and true methodology for balance changes... yeah, thwack is an outlier. dominates use rates, offers the most success with what's currently deemed good (speed, consistency is a non-issue)

but rolling back powercreep is a tough conversation regardless of what it's about. not a very popular thing, and super divisive

see: phoenix thread

[distant bobcat]

I poured a little out for that one. RIP

For sure a hot take. But probably the bog boaster one should get a pass while we are at it. Sigh I will make a thread tomorrow…

Sorry for the ping

Lol

[pale oasis]

"amities" in general could use a thread, yeah. doesn't have to be thwack specific

i'm not volunteering to start it, i'm gonna let someone else handle that. i'm burnt enough as is

lmaoo

[distant bobcat]

I got it. Well I will take a pass at it 😅

[median crest]

I'm off to sleep, I'll check when I wake up

[distant bobcat]

Cheers! Nice chatting with you 😃

[regal quail]

I wonder how many ppl actually like to have diversity of spells. I rmb in my other rpg experiences that there's always this one spell that everyone rushes to get just because it hits the hardest

Even if there are multiple spells that hit for similar dmg, everyone will just default to one of them

And without ultima this already happens

And for mages it's the fey unstables

So the thread starter's original intention could have been to discuss spell diversity, but ultimately (pun not intended) most ppl who have issues with ultima have issues with how certain classes hit a lot harder with it than others

[runic hill]

that is not an honest representation of the concerns about ultima, at all

[spring quarry]

idk if it's about "being hit harder" I think it's about "being hit at all".
undeniably, heretic is the best ultima user now and will still be the best user of it after any changes. 🤷‍♂️

[regal quail]

If we're talking about pvp, then there's a lot more that needs to be looked at other than ultima. If it's pve, hitting harder would likely be the main concern.

Agreed on heretic being the best user. And heretic being the best ultima user shouldn't be an issue.

[sudden granite]

Based on dmg number. Heretic has the highest number for sure. Overall effectiveness? I am not too sure considering heretic miss a lot due to poor dex

No use having the highest dmg number when u kept missing

[regal quail]

Exactly. There's a lot of videos showing the big numbers, but only heretic players will know the pain of missing

[regal quail]

OK poor response on my part as I didn't understand what u mean. Not hitting does make a big difference

Best example of missing is when I was at lvl 47 in a tower, easy one shot on a berserk boss, and decided not to ward first and go for a 1 turn kill. Guess what happened

[sudden granite]

Also there is a misconception that ultima is a 'one button to kill raidboss in 1 hit'

Bloody hell, there is a lot of set up involved to get the perfect ultima hit: triple magic up from lugus, deific channel and getting the exact crit chance. The chances for all the stars to aligned is probably as low as striking jackpot or loto.

[lyric fern]

That's not really a good example because everyone can miss at those later stages.

But with spells that have a base miss rate like SS does better with mobs that have higher dex

[regal quail]

You're right. And if we're talking about missing, snapshots don't paint a good picture, since it's a percentage. Only by playing the character can there be better understanding

The example just encapsulates the pain of missing at critical moments in my experience

[lyric fern]

The discussion should be closed since all information has been provided and it's going to just be a giant circle loop.

[drowsy knot]

I guess that's up to everyone

A vote I guess?

✅ Lock the thread
❌ Don't lock the thread

[mental tide]

All class do that tho for wrb. Expect maybe lugus but also pretty sure that’s not used by most. *Plus hera can use merlin.

[sudden granite]

My point is some ppl are pushing the narrative that ultima is a 'one button to kill raid boss' to justify the proposed nerf to ultima and ignoring how long/luck based to set the perfect ultima

[lavish kayak]

it has been a loop already even before this thread started

we just changed locations/channels

[pale oasis]

I mean, yeah, Ultima's been a discussion topic for like a year

[mental tide]

It’s not one button, more like 3 buttons. Not really all that much different. Basically it slaps hard too hard.

[sudden granite]

Really??? 3 button

Tell me how do u kill raid boss in 3 turn

[pale oasis]

press ultima

[lavish kayak]

someone needs to watch #heretic-hof-raids

[sudden granite]

Oh yes. Cherry picking

[spring quarry]

I kill all titans as beoH by doing:

• woo (not really necessary I guess)
• MM
• Ultima

that's it that's the fight 😆

then again I'm not a heretic so what do I know

[pale oasis]

Ultima gets really broken, really quickly. Even without this "perfect/luck-based setup" you mentioned, Ultima outdamages everything else. Check the pinned messages for a comparison and breakdown

[spring quarry]

yup. please read the OP and other pinned messages 🙏

[mental tide]

Ps by that I mean 3 ultima should be enough for most with a well build hera. Not including buffing turns only top-end hera do that

[spring quarry]

some ppl are pushing the narrative that ultima is a 'one button to kill raid boss'
this is basically crap 😆

[lavish kayak]

Oh yes. Cherry picking

Tell me how do u kill raid boss in 3 turn

i only answered the question as it is

gotta ask specific questions for specific answers

[lavish kayak]

crap but true at the same time sadly

[spring quarry]

find the people in this thread pushing that narrative 👌

until then it's just heretic whining and also vaguely slanderous

[pale oasis]

the actual narrative is that Ultima needs some fancy setup with buff stacking to outperform everything else

[velvet epoch]

Man this is still cooking? People need to stop asking NF to make raids take longer sheesh

[lavish kayak]

this will continue to cook even after the thread is closed, we'll just gather at a different place

[spring quarry]

Like many threads, this thread is really just #NFBalancePatchWaitingRoom

[velvet epoch]

I have a solution - those who want their ultimas nerfed you can have 'unultima' and it does nerfed damage. Those who want to keep ultima can keep it. Then everyone is happy

[spring quarry]

If I want to play something pathetic I already have the Beowulf class

[velvet epoch]

Got it - so unultima can only be used by non Valhallan classes because it would be insulting to introduce such a spell for them

Done

[lavish kayak]

if they want a nerfed ultima, just use the omniblastas or something

whatever the t9 omni celes skills are called

while waiting on the balance patch

[velvet epoch]

Easy. Balanced. Done

[spring quarry]

As long as everyone knows that this is just jokes that's fine

[rapid bridge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGwzgcci7tw