#Ultima

1 messages · Page 3 of 1

median crest
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Oh, I forgot about Fey Unstable, I don't know the stats of it

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Major gave me the stats of every other spell

willow cobalt
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Ara Vesta I M1 2.5
Ultima I M1 4
Ultima II M1 6
Fey Unstable M2 9-11

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if you know how to use these numbers, you're good

median crest
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Alright, give me a second then

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I guess Fey unstable M1 is 1

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And I'll say M2 is 10

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Actually, I have messed up Chakram calculations, forgot about the number of hits, how many does it do?

gleaming mesa
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6

median crest
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Can it crit?

gleaming mesa
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yes

median crest
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Does it have M2 disparity? For example 0.75/1.25

gleaming mesa
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idk, probably

outer marlin
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afaik it does

gleaming mesa
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use the same numbers as realmstrikes

outer marlin
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it's practically realmstrikes except you can't use elemental bonuses

median crest
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Alright, I'll do math, 1s

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If it has a max of 3.75 and deals 6 hits, holy shit it's good

hasty creek
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the normal dmg cap or ara dmg cap?

median crest
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If it has 3.75 dealing 6 hits, with a 0.5 min M2, it would deal an average of 1.875 M2 per hit totalling to 11.25 M2, gonna do DPS now

willow cobalt
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the numbers sound good, but they are not M1 mimic

median crest
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It's why I'll do DPS xD

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Only knowing M1 and M2 gives me the data to do it

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The DPS is against 100% HP Morri and 1% HP morri

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Alright, either the skill is the best one ever or the numbers don't add up

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The DPS of Chakram is 226092 DPS. Without crit. This is a lot considering that with the same factors, Ultima is 69091

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Against higher def enemies it goes down to 0, but it's crazy the burst window that it has!

outer marlin
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those numbers seem off

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maybe if it was open beta chakram, that was crazy

median crest
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That's with the 3.75 Max M2 Major said

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And 0.5 min, I could bring it down, but it's still crazy good

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Multi element has an average of 1.5 and deals 3 hits, meaning 4.5 total M2

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Compared to 11,25...

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And it can crit... Oh god

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If anyone can test it with Cactus, I'd appreciate it

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Mag stat is 4400, mag+, ++, t.mag+++, Snotra

willow cobalt
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even so, it is not a reliable spell so i wouldnt bother

median crest
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I'm trying to do some math do it becomes a reasonable skill

willow cobalt
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we are looking for a Ultima subtitute for raiding
raids stats increase while their hp drops so it can go down really quickly

median crest
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It's fking weird otherwise

willow cobalt
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!skille ultima

steep onyxBOT
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Magic
Ultima

Deals mixed damage of all elements, dealing extra damage to those weak against any element. Requires 2 turns in battle.

Tier

10

Mana

360

Causes

Burning
Frozen
Paralyzed
Blight
Blind
Asleep
Rot

Learns

Deity

Monsters

Enlightened King
Enlightened Queen
The Mightiest Mimic
Arisen Quetzalcoatl
Ymir Amphiptere

Followers

The Mightiest Mimic

Information
Pierce (M1): 4
Damage (M2): 1
Attack Count (C): 1
Turns: 2
Critical Hit Chance: 25%
Data from OrnaGuide (https://orna.guide/) Damage = (Att x M1 - Def / 2) x M2 x C
willow cobalt
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here you have the damage formula

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for ultima

median crest
willow cobalt
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compare it to fey unstable

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!skille fey inferno

steep onyxBOT
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Magic
Fey Inferno

Unstable magic that can deal massive fire damage with a good chance to deal critical damage, but may damage or burn its caster. Requires 3 turns in battle.

Tier

10

Mana

300

Enchantment

Fire

Gives

Burning

Causes

Burning

Learns

Heretic

Information
Pierce (M1): 1
Damage (M2): 9 - 11
Attack Count (C): 1
Turns: 3
Critical Hit Chance: 25%
Data from OrnaGuide (https://orna.guide/) Damage = (Att x M1 - Def / 2) x M2 x C
willow cobalt
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raids stats scale as i said
so if a raid has 5k res and you hit with fey inferno a huge number, when the raid is at 25% your damage will drop really hard

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this is especially valid when your magic is low, early heretic and mid heretic

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Fey Unstable M2 is almost triple then Ultima I
but in certain raiding scenarios, you will hit with ultima more then fey unstable

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so if you want to find a good raiding alternative, focus on a high M1 spell

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Chackram is a multihit spell with really really low M2, you will be 0'd really fast

outer marlin
median crest
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The updates leaderboard is

  1. Ultima
  2. Ara Vesta
  3. Fey element 5
  4. Fey Unstable
  5. Multi element 3

Disqualifications: Magic Chakram because of inflated stats in calculations

median crest
outer marlin
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afaik it's 0.5 to 0.75 per hit

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or less

willow cobalt
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it is a good spell anyway
in dungeons maybe 🤔

median crest
willow cobalt
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the best alternative is aquila sigil+ara vesta

median crest
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Yessir

willow cobalt
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M1 of 2.5 and with sigil, M2 of 2

median crest
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And it still it is outpaced by Ultima with bonus elemental DMG from Souls without weaknesses

willow cobalt
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fey unstable is a 3 turn spell with M2 of 9-11 meaning M1 of 1 and M2 of 3-3.66 per turn

willow cobalt
median crest
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But it can crit, being why it's placed below the 3.75 of Chakram

outer marlin
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they can both crit

willow cobalt
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non-crit spells are off the board from the start

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multi elemental is 👎

outer marlin
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even without prom hands, non crit just can't compete with crits innate dmg boost and the crit dmg amity

olive plover
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thin blade use is not his high damage ( it doesn't have) is his 2MP cost

median crest
willow cobalt
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nerfing Ultima to an unusable point will make raiding pre Heretic Ara+Celestial Staff with 5 prom hands an awful experience

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Nerfing prom hands and ultima, we will wish towers of olympia didnt release mimic

gleaming mesa
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dont forget endless where you need ultima after F200 :P

willow cobalt
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Heretics will riot

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damage cap like riot

median crest
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As Fuximus said, we want Fey Element 5 to deal more DMG than Ultima when exploiting an elemental weakness

willow cobalt
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making Fey Unstable a M1 spell will fix it easy

outer marlin
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I think ultima is fine to be the go to skill when you want piercing or weakness exploit

willow cobalt
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also maybe a 2 turn variant

outer marlin
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the problem is when you can make everything weak with blights and stack elemental damage modifiers until it's also the best spell for raw damage

willow cobalt
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Fey Unstable I M1 of 5
Fey Unstable II M1 of 7.5
fixed ✅

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no elemental boost like bulwark or souls of achlys but the higher M will compensate the lack of it and the elemental exploiting bonus

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we will see more apollyon pets users mimic

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nerf ultima, nerf phoenix, nerf everyone
why all disscusions these days are about nerfs?

gleaming mesa
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because we dont have T11 yet

willow cobalt
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we will never have T11 🥲

modest sable
median crest
modest sable
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nerf everyone, everyone must suffer

willow cobalt
outer marlin
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it is when mostly everyone could already do end game content with their eyes closed even before all the powercreep of last year

willow cobalt
median crest
modest sable
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Im fine with that, IF endless gets massively reworked

willow cobalt
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fix Hands of Selene
no more Beo abusing it

gleaming mesa
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or fix it so only beo abuse it

willow cobalt
outer marlin
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Sure, hands of selene are busted, nerf it

modest sable
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I dont care if heretics are good at something lol

willow cobalt
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instead of working like a team of players asking for more power, we want to nerf each other mimic

modest sable
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but you cant deny that things like ultima, phoenix and prometheus hands are all outliers. It just happens to be the case that heretic uses all of those

outer marlin
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we don't need more power, there is no content that warrants us being any more stronger than we already are

willow cobalt
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every piece of power is challenged in endless

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nerf ultima?
nerf heretic endless
phoenix?
nerf all users of it in endless

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nerf snapshoting?
nerf gs in endless

modest sable
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snapshotting would nerf everyone

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just GS more than others

willow cobalt
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hybrid power?
beo will go back at eating cactus mimic

outer marlin
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beo was already better at player dmg than follower dmg even before towers mimic

modest sable
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same for GS lol

willow cobalt
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same for heretic

modest sable
willow cobalt
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WE FOUND THE PROBLEM
UNRELEASE TOWERS

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towers divided us my friends 🥲

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we became greedy of power, wanting other classes power be lowered so we can shine

modest sable
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dude no lol

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people just want the game to be more balanced

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its not a matter of wanting to drag down other classes

willow cobalt
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i think everything is balanced
ppl got used with towers content
no more skill issues

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@outer marlin you are a Beo
things are going great there with hybrid build right?

outer marlin
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It's quite nice, though prom hands and selene hands could use a nerf and I'd still be doing great

willow cobalt
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got any difficuties in some content areas?

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like pvp, raiding, endless

outer marlin
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yeah endless kinda big gay that there's no booster hybrid weapons

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suggested questing instruments a while ago

willow cobalt
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i see
orn endless right?

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how far can you reach without a problem?

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i guess Verse IV cruising through them

outer marlin
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I haven't done much endless so I can't say for sure, making some gf questing staves with fero eyes and I'll try another time

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verse IV, ultima if extra pen is needed

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aegir cause it's busted af

willow cobalt
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so beo is no longer bad after towers released

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i'm happy to hear this 🙃

outer marlin
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followers are still bad and I'll continue to argue for it to need something

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hydrus is in a good spot though

modest sable
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I wish gs got something like beo hydrus

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a heretic GS hybrid would be hella cool

willow cobalt
outer marlin
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players don't always use the best build though, since all classes see play and not just heretic

willow cobalt
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like we can raid with fey unstable and oneshot everything
or sigil and vesta
but ultima is faster and easier

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we're talking about end game players
250 AL 25+

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you wont find 2 different aproaches of a class to be equal and achieve balance

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one will always be better

outer marlin
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I don't think everything should be equal and perfectly balanced, but the disparity shouldn't be so high. It shouldn't matter if you want to be the tank with a shield, the nimble melee fighter, a crazy caster, a beastmaster, or a summoner of massive armies. They should be at least comparable, and I currently think for followers that isn't the case

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but this is gettign too offtopic again

lusty wasp
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In my limited experiences versus AV2 , it crits alot !

maiden crane
median crest
nocturne nacelle
median crest
willow cobalt
unreal hemlock
unreal hemlock
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Please do not turn a balance discussion into a class war - again

modest sable
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I also use ultima as my main raiding method

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but I still think its too strong

unreal hemlock
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I've advocated for no gauntlet snapshotting, when that is one of GS' biggest strenghts, and many a phoenix user has advocated for bonking the bird (or blackened eyes) in the noggin.

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People should stop assuming that there is malice behind these propositions

willow cobalt
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so just nerf it so we struggle in the mud like other classes do

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why should we finish raids in a few seconds using ultima when we can do it in minutes?
qol nerf indeed

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advocating for a nerf that will affect the qol of a class is bad
players will burn and others will fight back

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Odie nerfed things the right way
for example Shoulders of Themis(they were thrown in the abyss with this nerf)
it was harsh but i agree, they were op

unreal hemlock
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You're taking this to extremes. Not to mention that these are just discussions and in no way represent any NF action.

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Regarding shoulders of themis, yes, they were very strong, but their main strength was also due to ultima.

modest sable
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you got used to overpowered stuff and then complain if it gets brought back down to earth

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when it was overpowered to begin with

unreal hemlock
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Boosting just holy skills isn't that strong outside ultima + holy enchantments on weapons

unreal hemlock
willow cobalt
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GS can snapshot gazers in orn endless and pass floor 300 with no problem in orn gear while even i struggle to reach
and i'm not making a thread about it requesting a nerf because i dont care and if players are happy doing it, i'm ok

modest sable
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john literally made a thread about snapshjotting as well

unreal hemlock
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That's your opinion, and that's okay.

willow cobalt
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really

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then he should open a thread about it

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i would like to see that

modest sable
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Im not sure why you seem to think this is about nerfing other classes

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its not like all GS mains conspire to nerf heretic or something

willow cobalt
unreal hemlock
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In any case, it's fine to have your own opinion, and it is fine to voice your opinion.
But it is not okay to take other people's opinions down by telling them they have wrong intentions

modest sable
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I just want the game to be more balanced overall

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I also want GS to be nerfed in pvp

unreal hemlock
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We have a thread for that too 🎉

outer marlin
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gilga got crit spiked shield removed for a reason

modest sable
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I dont think nerfing heretic as a class is necessary. I do think nerfing ultima and phoenix are necessary though

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because those are clearly outliers

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but that is still an indirect nerf for heretic nonetheless

unreal hemlock
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Plus, it's not like Ultima is just a heretic thing, and that phoenix is just a heretic thing

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Phoenix is an everyone-except-GS thing, and Ultima is an everyone-except-RS thing

outer marlin
unreal hemlock
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(Yes I am including gilga because Forg mimic )

outer marlin
willow cobalt
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how do you think the community will react to a Phoenix DC nerf?
how do you think NF thinks the community will react to it?
in a good way or a bad way?

balmy hedge
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if ultima got nerfed, what would GS/beos use out of curiosity?

willow cobalt
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do you think NF is going to embrace the players rage about it?

unreal hemlock
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We don't need to think how the community will react, we already had the thread.
NF have nerfed things before. People have been unhappy, but nerfs need to happen sometimes

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ie SS

outer marlin
unreal hemlock
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game didn't end

willow cobalt
outer marlin
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for beo

unreal hemlock
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GS would use BP, like they're supposed to

modest sable
balmy hedge
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so if mages used ultima, gs used bp, that's the ideal outcome, i.e. "balance"

willow cobalt
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how did gilga react to spiked shield nerf?
i remember a lot of players quit because of this
Phoenix will not only affect gilga but all classes except GS(who want it nerfed)

unreal hemlock
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Personally (just my opinion), i'd still rather see an additional split between the mages and the ultima, whereas specific elemental exploitations should be better than the blanket

outer marlin
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imo the ideal outcome would be if mages used ultima, fey unstables, chakram, ara vesta situationally

unreal hemlock
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but that's more of a me thing

modest sable
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it doesnt necessarily have to lose DC though. However I think we can all agree that DC + ward turn upkeep + attacks is a little too much

unreal hemlock
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Ultima should be the "universally good" but not the "universally best" is my stance

balmy hedge
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i just don't think this game is mature enough to support that level of action diversity just yet in terms of battle mechanics

willow cobalt
outer marlin
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it can lose some of the extras it has though since DC by itself is already so good

balmy hedge
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but then people will still all use phoenix as the de facto pet

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so we're just universally nerfing for the sake of nerfing?

willow cobalt
balmy hedge
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i also get the whole argument around "there should be pet diversity"

outer marlin
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if it loses some of its extras then we can look at other followers that might need extra help without needing to overbuff everything into the moon just to compete with it

balmy hedge
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and again, i don't think this game has enough battle mechanics depth to support that... people will gravitate towards 1 pet

unreal hemlock
willow cobalt
balmy hedge
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yeah lotan arguably did more for pet diversity than anything else tbh

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for once the effort to switch was worth it

willow cobalt
willow cobalt
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things progressed

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we will soon get celestial pets

balmy hedge
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and everyone will use the best one

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so it doesn't matter if they release 1 or 80 celestial pets

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math dictates that 1 will be the "overall" best in terms of utility

willow cobalt
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end game pets for end game players
leave the newbs use the first ones until they get acces to them

balmy hedge
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and for super geared endgame players, defenses are never an issue

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which makes it even easier to figure out "best"

willow cobalt
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exactly

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why most Gilgas dont use Arisen Shield anymore?

balmy hedge
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phoenix could lose block, ward turns, and literally not attack and it'd still be the pet choice of 99% of players

willow cobalt
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we got better gear

balmy hedge
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if not ultima, it's av2 spam

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and then we'll be back here with a thread called "av2" arguing that should be nerfed for the sake of diversity

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in the NF newsletter there's mention of a long term goal of action oriented battle system

willow cobalt
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it's just a waste of time talking here about nerfs and changes
play the game and leave Odie to decide what needs a nerf or not mimic
advocating for a nerf and not receiving it will dissapoint you 🙃

balmy hedge
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THAT will introduce diversity if it's actually real-time

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turn based systems you just can't get out of mathematical optimization

modest sable
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so what is your point? You want overpowered things to remain overpowered because everyone would still use the overpowered thing if it was nerfed? That tells a lot about how strong it was to begin with

willow cobalt
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get stronger

balmy hedge
willow cobalt
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new content, new powers and more diversity

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GS got this month gear allowing them to transfer buffs to summons easier
isnt that a buff to GS endless?

balmy hedge
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the irony that "almost every class uses ultima" and yet no one pays attention to poor druid providing golem fortitude that everyone uses, or the fact that every caster uses snotra and every melee uses gunnr, and those are beo skills

willow cobalt
unreal hemlock
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I really don't want to turn this back into the phoenix thread, but I'll reiterate this because it was an important point.

Phoenix is the all-round strongest pet. It only comes second to blight pets specifically for ultima play.
As such, for pet diversity to exist, pets need to be released with similar power to phoenix.
This means that the average new pet would have to give 100% damage and defense boost, ward turn upkeep and defenses for little to no investment, for it to be comparable to phoenix
That is an immense form of powercreep, and 99% of the pets in the game float at around ~50% damage increase with a downside, which is the baseline for all pets. If new pets are to be brought up to phoenix levels, that will cause massive number bloat in the game (and also make GS and Beo fall further behind, since GS can't use pets, and Beo uses them for damage, not buffs)

unreal hemlock
modest sable
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the reasons why some things need to be nerfed imo is because the diversity is at an all time low. 99% of people use phoenix, basically any class with a half decent magic stat uses ultima. There need to be multiple builds viable imo, not just a single one to rule them all like what is currently the case

willow cobalt
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i would like to see a better pet then phoenix

unreal hemlock
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I would not.

cosmic shadow
willow cobalt
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bloating numbers mean less time wasted

balmy hedge
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there's not enough stat differences in classes so it's all on gear

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and there's not enough gear choice differences so everyone's mag stat ends up being the same

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so yeah, not surprising everyone gravitates towards the same spell

unreal hemlock
modest sable
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for example fey elemental spells being better than ultima for a raid being weak to that element

balmy hedge
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if you want to force diversity, do it like spiked shield / chained shield.. build in auto nerf for classes that shouldn't use it in the name of spell diversity

willow cobalt
unreal hemlock
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What are the important things?

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What do you like about orna?

willow cobalt
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remember clearing tower speed
Heretics clear it in 30-40-50 minutes while GS take maybe longer
focus on improving this if you love your class

outer marlin
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or have spells that excel at specific things. Have a high piercing spell, a high m2 spell, a spell that outperforms everythign else when an enemy is weak to it

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more damage spells with secondary effects that could be thrown in as support

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between your main spammable spell

balmy hedge
willow cobalt
outer marlin
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currently ultima is the piercing option, the weakness exploit option and the damage option all in one

balmy hedge
willow cobalt
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tbh i dont care about how i raid, ultima or av
the only thing i care about ultima is making those 2 turn raid videos for hof or smashing a big number and brag about it

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cough cough

Screenshot_20230216_143816_Video_Player.jpg
balmy hedge
willow cobalt
willow cobalt
balmy hedge
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what else is interesting, sigils and av2

willow cobalt
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we brothers now

balmy hedge
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i mean if you're gonna argue for like .. a "mark" on a target before ultima can utilize the 8 element weakness

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sure it's more "interesting" but man is that a hassle

outer marlin
balmy hedge
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yeah the biggest barrier is turn-based

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anything else

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because at end game defenses are ignorable

willow cobalt
balmy hedge
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everyone will NEVER care about defenses when you're geared

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and singularly it's about offenses, and that's easy math

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calculate damage per turn, job done

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spam the one single spell

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maaaaaybe for long raids there's an m1 difference you need to take into account

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diversity = spam spell A up to 70%, then spam spell B

outer marlin
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I care about defenses sometimes. beo 💀

balmy hedge
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git gud

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and stop caring

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tbh, this fomor event is legit interesting

outer marlin
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yeah that's how you die

balmy hedge
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because it forces different mechanics

outer marlin
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if you play a bad class

balmy hedge
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THAT angle is great

unreal hemlock
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I do like the fomor event a lot. it makes people actually think

balmy hedge
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no one's using ultima when raids can only be killed by dots

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hello diversity

willow cobalt
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high ascension level = less need for defensive gear and more power

balmy hedge
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BUT

modest sable
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yeah I changed to chimera for the fomorian event instead of phoenix. Just because chimera can deal with the noct bosses quicker

balmy hedge
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is anyone else using anything else other than BURN on these suckers?

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no. why? burn is best DPT

outer marlin
unreal hemlock
willow cobalt
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and i can easily die too if i go full nuke mode mimic
paper thin nuke

balmy hedge
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you mean hof nuke 😛

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ya when wrbs and shit that matters requires different mechanics

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we'll get action diversity

willow cobalt
balmy hedge
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otherwise it's just brute force math :\

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also if it's just elemental weakness, make the faction bonus bigger for single element skills, we'll also see spell diversity

willow cobalt
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i think this is proving the point of this thread 🤔

balmy hedge
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it's coz your lotan is sick

unreal hemlock
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That's kinda the issue. The damage output of people has been bloated so hard that people just oneshot things. And there are 3 ways to work around that (that come to mind)

  1. Reduce player damage output (easiest to implement, people are often against it)
  2. Increase everything's health (harder to implement, increases barrier of entry for new players, fundamentally the same as 1. but objectively worse)
  3. Add unique mechanics to every challenging foe to disallow brainless one button tapping (hardest to implement, requires redesigning a large chunk of the game)
balmy hedge
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should get him checked out

willow cobalt
balmy hedge
unreal hemlock
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If everything is oneshottable, then you're not really playing orna, you're playing ascension simulator. Might as well go play an incremental game, where you get to watch number go up with a lot less effort.

balmy hedge
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also why introduce damage cap (which is #1) and then introduce things that break damage cap

willow cobalt
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lets be honest
who cares about current raids?

balmy hedge
unreal hemlock
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sure

balmy hedge
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i'm all for 3 from john's list

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and strongly feel that any other adjustments is just lip service

unreal hemlock
balmy hedge
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because people will just gravitate towards the next best thing and spam that

unreal hemlock
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Phoenician gear is also pretty good for how common it is

willow cobalt
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i mean.. once you get them

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you get that ofyc or that af weapon

balmy hedge
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it's just interesting the answer is "what would you use if ultima is nerfed" is maybe still ultima

outer marlin
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I care about my 20 cort per morri mighty_mimic

willow cobalt
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the raids become useless then

modest sable
unreal hemlock
balmy hedge
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but this game is literally an incremental counter simulator....?

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wrapped around pixels, sure

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but it's literally that. 1 exponential function driving exp, 1 RNG driving loot, 1 straight multiplication formula for damage

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3 things come together for us to watch numbers grow on a screen

willow cobalt
unreal hemlock
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Personally I play orna for the exploration aspect, finding out different things, trying them out, experiencing new events, having fun with new builds

balmy hedge
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your #3 john is basically let people watch number go up in a slightly different context if you can suspend disbelief

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ya i think the TC / area control ideas are awesome, would love to see that more tbh

unreal hemlock
balmy hedge
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new builds tho is... "better number generator" 😄

willow cobalt
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we need 100m hp raids
a real challenge

balmy hedge
#

watch numbers go up slightly faster

willow cobalt
#

1B hp raid boggers

#

kill it in one-go or it's hp resets

unreal hemlock
willow cobalt
#

that is a challenge

#

ultima is put to good use then

unreal hemlock
modest sable
#

I play this game mainly because of the GPS aspect. Would not be playing it if that was not a thing. I also like to experiment with different classes and builds

unreal hemlock
#

if it's non-event, then... yeah, sure. We're walking towards that path

modest sable
#

ascension is definitely not my main goal

balmy hedge
willow cobalt
balmy hedge
#

majority of people want to pew pew

unreal hemlock
#

well, that's what towers are for, right now

#

and I appreciate that the towers aren't raids

balmy hedge
#

and they hail zipper as their god's acolyte mimic

willow cobalt
#

towers are the longer version of dungeons
and once you get all you want, you wont enter them anymore

modest sable
balmy hedge
#

what john is doing is NOT casual fyi

unreal hemlock
#

correct.

balmy hedge
#

it's actually 200x more time investment

#

you be casual and collect all fomorian gear

#

not possible

#

if you're casual you're asking "guys which is more dmg typhon staff or demeter staff"

#

oh cool thx i'll use the more dmg one

#

off i go to pew pew

unreal hemlock
#

I currently only have an ornate damona shield

#

the rest eludes me

balmy hedge
#

that's just filthy casual

willow cobalt
#

casual playerbase is not disscussing here

modest sable
#

my point was, not everyone cares about efficiency and the ascension grind

willow cobalt
#

we all filthy addicted to this game

balmy hedge
#

but everyone cares about doing more dmg

#

and small niche are like sure i'll do something interesting at the great sacrifice of dmg

unreal hemlock
#

That's a sidevote

#

I don't agree, I don't disagree

balmy hedge
#

thanks?

#

😄

outer marlin
unreal hemlock
#

I care about the combat being interesting

modest sable
#

I sidevoted right

unreal hemlock
#

More damage is optional

balmy hedge
#

you know you can make combat more interesting today by just adding more shit to your rotation

#

it's interesting but slower

willow cobalt
#

for me interesting combat means a way to one-shot my enemy before he one-shots me(i'm heretic)

balmy hedge
#

but i don't think that's a price people are willing to pay

willow cobalt
balmy hedge
#

enter turn economy

#

your GS 512 run for example

#

it's interesting

unreal hemlock
#

If I add more things to my rotation for no effect that's not really interesting

#

It's a waste of time

balmy hedge
#

right so what is the effect

#

DAMAGE right?

#

all roads lead to "let me do some more shit that allow me to do more damage"

unreal hemlock
#

Could be health.
I like life pacting

balmy hedge
#

yeah but defenses are trivial in this game unless you're inarin

unreal hemlock
#

I mean yeah that part is fair, since dealing damage is objectively the end goal of the game

balmy hedge
#

inarin, defender of defenses, stalwart of the shield

#

will spam 100 turns of ward for any content

#

even kingdom gauntlets

#

just in case

outer marlin
#

I usually am not a defender of defenses, that's why I die sometimes when I run full booster horde dungeons, or I get oneshot by a raid ult cause beo has no defensive stat passive

balmy hedge
#

if you're not dying every now and then you're not pushing hard enough to chase dmg 😛

outer marlin
#

time to stack more ascensions so I can zero things out like everyone else

modest sable
balmy hedge
#

rng defense best defense

#

keeps things interesting

#

why nerf ultima, your fights are already plenty interesting coz you can die anytime mimic

willow cobalt
#

offense is the best defense 😆

balmy hedge
#

^ hell yeah in turn based games

#

if your enemy cannot take a turn

#

guess what you don't need defenses

willow cobalt
#

unless you miss or the enemy has second chance ☠️

#

or not enough damage since others want nerfs mimic

balmy hedge
#

just enforce dmg caps then and not add items that break it after introducing it

#

easy code

#

max dmg 4,999,999, people can use bp instead of ultima

#

yay diversity

#

ironically if the cap is low, people will not use ultima because of 2 turn cost

#

and then i'll def start a thread "omg make multi turn skills great again" mimic

outer marlin
#

"multihit skills are op cause you can hit dmg cap several times, pls nerf" mighty_mimic

willow cobalt
#

i love it mimic

spring quarry
velvet epoch
#

Curious to see what happens. We should have a poll based on what people actually want the ultima nerf to be instead of what they expect. Personally, I don't want to spend more time raiding, so id vote for a tiny nerf if any. Not sure why people are begging to spend more time in raids

gleaming mesa
#

it's not even a joke

#

it's a summoner trait

#

sacrifice your stats for summons

spring quarry
median crest
#

🧵I think that the problem with Ultima is the infinite scaling that it has, since it's a pure M1 spell.

If you take a look at the leaderboard of the raiding spells, you can reach to one conclusion just by looking at the basics of each spells

All of the spells except the worst one (Multi element 3) can crit. Giving crit essentially makes M2 duplicate. Meaning that even if Multi element 3 has total 3.75 M2, Chakram can literally double it just by existing, even when you can have 20% more DMG with elemental bonus, or the 50% bonus DMG from elemental alignment, needing a book or a pet. Essentially, wasting resources for trying to make something else just approach to another spell

Next thing that we can look at is Fey Unstable/Magic Chakram. So, what's special about those? They can both crit, meaning they are instantly better than Multi element 3. They have around total 3.75 M2 (3.33 for Fey, 3.75 for Chakram). Fey Unstable is worse since it has less M2 and it's a 3 turn spell

Up the row we have 3rd place! Fey element 5! What brings this spell to top 3? 2 M1. Yep, that's all, 2 M1 is all it takes for it to be placed at top 3 is having M1, even if is a low number like 2. I have to say that It can also crit, making a somewhat 2 M1, 2 M2 spell, but smh

In second place we have Ara Vesta 1 & 2. Some of you might say: "Hey, it's with Aquila, right?". To answer that question, I'm going to say no!. Ara Vesta has a 2.5 M1, making it better than Fey element, except in case it has an elemental weakness. But good luck finding one that you can exploit with Fey spells in raids. With Aquila, Ara vesta becomes even stronger, since it can become with 1 sigil + crit a 2.5 M1, 4 M2 in around turn 2, up to 5 turns (turn 7) or such. Nonetheless, really cool spell idea

In the top of the world, we have to imagine dragons, since Ultima comes flaming hot, how surprising. Ultima is a 2 turn skill, something that can put off a few people that don't know about the skill. [1/2]

#

Ultima is a spell with 4 M1, being the biggest one of the leaderboard, but with a 2 turn cast it brings its M2 to 0.5. so what's good about it? Everything that can synergize with it. It can crit, bringing M2 to 1 again, it can deal elemental weakness, with x2.4 DMG (or M2), it can also be used with souls of Achlys, bringing DMG up by 40%, meaning it's a 1.4 M2, but also being able to be used with the Bulwark passive. Bringing the M2 to 1.75

Without an elemental weakness, Ultima reaches the amazing 4 M1 1.75 M2, being insane compared to the 3.75 or 3.33 M2 of other spells, or the 2.5 M1 of the second best spell

With ANY elemental weakness, ultima M2 goes up to 4.2!!! Bringing M2 to even a higher point than the insane M1! That scaling, as interesting items comes out, it just keeps increasing. [2/2]

median crest
#

The difference that Ultima has in comparison with the second best skill is 1.5 more M1 while having 0.1666667 less M2 in the worst case, while having with only a relatively normal case 1.5 more M1 and 2.53 more M2

gleaming mesa
#

so instead of numbers i took some pics

#

the damage is in-line with the other spells (except celestial arrow)

#

sure, you can push it further with a weakness

#

but i think most people prefer DC over blight

spring quarry
#

Assuming that each SS shows roughly optimized builds. i.e. bulwark/achlys with ultima, crit multi with the skills that crit, wtfever you can use to buff multielem (just +mag I guess).

#

Also if the raid natively comes with a weakness, Ultima pulls way way ahead even compared to e.g. fire weak and using fey inferno/multi-flame/fey-flame.

gleaming mesa
#

yes, the builds are optimized
celestial staff with 5 prom hands
a.kala full of achly souls
bulwark when ultima
FSS
Arisen Rings

spring quarry
#

The other other "magic" skill I'd add into the list is Verse4.
Can't use staves with sequencer for it, unfortunately, since there's no good mixed att/mag staves (other than Ljosalfar at like 900 each).

velvet epoch
willow cobalt
#

back when we didnt have celestial weapons, we had a second staff with souls of achlys and Ultima II dealed more damage then Fey Unstable

#

but now we have instead a staff that we use in both cases and the damage is the same

#

only that ultima is piercing and has a 2.4 elemental exploitation

green hamlet
#

This thread is on par with the Phoenix thread in terms of comments

median crest
# gleaming mesa

Most of it makes a lot of sense! The boss is T5 so M2 skills excel even more than they should in usual gameplay, but most of it checks out. Thanks for the follow-up! I really appreciate it

median crest
median crest
# gleaming mesa

Complementary comment on the in game data compared to the calculations

Turn 1 spells: Ara Vesta doing more DMG without sigils than Fey elemental, just like I said. Magic Chakram doing more DMG since it's an M2 spell, meaning it has more DMG vs lower defense enemies, but the DMG falls off quickly

Turn 2 spells: Ultima decimating the competition by X2 DMG

Turn 3 spells: Ultima 2 dealing the same DMG as Fey Unstable, this makes sense because Fey Unstable is a pure M2 skills, meaning against Starlord has the DMG inflated by it. Even that being the case, Ultima 2 still competes with it even though it's a pure M1 skill against a low defense enemy

#

If I hadn't made it clear before. I'm really thankful for the in-game test Zagat! 💜💜

gleaming mesa
#

turns out the extra 40% from souls make the spell better than the others

median crest
#

And that's for now, if they make X or Y items that buffs any spells , it would also affect Ultima! Increasing its DMG even more if nothing is done!

gleaming mesa
#

with the current items we're fully using all slots to boost ultima

#

even if they add a 4% water adorn, it will replace the current ones

#

not boost it anymore

spring quarry
#

helm and accessories are minor boosts atm. helm is often just whatever with azures, rings are arisens or carls or something also small.

median crest
gleaming mesa
#

np, they can add a drawback, +fire damage, -water damage

spring quarry
#

the concern is more that they can't do dedicated elemental things in existing slots though. hopefully they wouldn't just casually drop another 1.2x onto us.

gleaming mesa
#

and it can be balanced out for ultima

spring quarry
#

pairing all +element with -diffelement would work, if they'd commit to that as a means of keeping Ultima permanently tied down.

#

though it does make you wonder if there should instead be a mechanical change to the way Ultima scales from various +element effects

unreal hemlock
#

I don't hate the +fire -water idea

#

it would make sense, thematically, as well as in keeping it from getting out of hand for ultima

#

but at the same time it'd be weird because the only reason for such an interaction would be because of ultima

#

and designing entire effects just to work around a specific spell is odd to me

olive plover
#

One workaround of this could be "all non omnimancy of X element gains +X% damage"

#

That way you don't need to give a negative to something and ultima doesn't benefits from it because is omnimancy

nocturne nacelle
stable mango
#

What was the spec of Heretic ?

green hamlet
#

So..~the same

nocturne nacelle
nocturne nacelle
#

Heretic with 13 AL and simple weapons

#

So not same

willow cobalt
real cipher
#

1 turn skill + no weakness vs 2 turn skill + weakness

nocturne nacelle
#

This just shows how easy it is.

#

Except amorri

real cipher
#

This doesnt compare anything, need a more balanced comparison

green hamlet
willow cobalt
#

his pets gives 50% dmg permanent
while our gives 140% temporary debuff

#

do the test without pets and show us mimic

green hamlet
#

?

#

Show a class at its best

#

Compare classes at their best

stable mango
#

Or just take a Beo Hydrus with just the same stuffs, the same pet and try Ultima and Realmstrikes in the same battle, simple no ?

real cipher
#

Could work, beoH / deity

stable mango
#

as long you have the same Att/Mag or near

#

the advantage of Beo is Hybrid, so if you have a little too much Att, it will give 50% of this "little too much" to Mag and vice-versa

willow cobalt
#

i got 75m max with ultima
so he wins

#

75m for a 2 turn vs 88m 1 turn

real cipher
olive plover
stable mango
green hamlet
#

Seems weird, since there's times where Ultima easily outdamages rstrikes...

stable mango
#

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication."

  • Leonardo Da Vinci
green hamlet
real cipher
median crest
# nocturne nacelle Ultima Comparison

As it has been said before, this thread is to compare Ultima to other spells. Not skills, if you want to compare Ultima to other skills, you should make another thread

olive plover
#

it can be tested with other skills, but it should be done in the same conditions, either a class with hybrid like stats or any class using the hybrid amity

#

and same buffs/pets enemy etc

median crest
real cipher
#

Then as long as one perform better than the others at a certain given situation, then.. all good

median crest
jovial yacht
#

comparing character that hit for 10s of millions of damage is irrelevant IMO.

real cipher
#

For some people, yes
For others that wants meme SS, maybe not

jovial yacht
#

ok but balancing the game should have nothing to do with zipper screenshots

real cipher
#

I never said that, but yup i agree

median crest
#

Well, if you want to compare Ultima to other melee skills, feel free to create a new thread

nocturne nacelle
real cipher
#

Same with that one ultima then? 🤷‍♂️

nocturne nacelle
#

Ultima getting cap is real and common

real cipher
nocturne nacelle
nocturne nacelle
real cipher
#

Thats not the point..

median crest
jovial yacht
#

the real topic is how buff stacking works on ultima and ultimastrikes

#

and how it makes it superior to other options

willow cobalt
#

aham aham

Screenshot_20230220_181419_Gallery.jpg
jovial yacht
#

casualy one-shoting a.morri lmao

willow cobalt
#

that is far from casual

nocturne nacelle
#

And that's without weakness

#

With weakness that will be 100mil

willow cobalt
#

if it's so easy, why dont you do it yourself?

jovial yacht
#

the new cap remover let you skip the part where raids become stronger when they lose HP.

nocturne nacelle
real cipher
jovial yacht
willow cobalt
#

i advise you do the same

#

they are watching us 👀

jovial yacht
#

can't even make a joke on a 44M hit on a.morri... what a time.

willow cobalt
#

i know, right? mimic

jovial yacht
#

my point on raid scaling still stand tho. Big number oneshoting is just skipping the mechanic, making it a real think on the lower spectrum of the players

willow cobalt
#

everything is offensive these days

#

gen z are running this discord

jovial yacht
#

you're playing a dangerous game mimic

willow cobalt
#

if something happens to me, you will know why

jovial yacht
#

they'll try to hide it like they did to abyss

unreal hemlock
jovial yacht
#

yes I know, he even left the french discord, it the joke. Like a gestapo of mods banning people and finding unrealistic reasons for their disappearance.

#

you're too new as a mod to know those circles, just be careful of mein.

unreal hemlock
#

Ah, I don't do other discords, was unaware he left everywhere, but it makes sense

balmy hedge
median crest
median crest
unreal hemlock
#

ease of access

median crest
#

Thanks John!

jovial yacht
#

yes I saw it, but still people are posting pointless screenshots of ultima or realmstrikes with AL and high-end gear like it was relevant to the topic

#

and by people I mean zipper and sore

median crest
#

That should be kept for another thread

drowsy knot
#

Let's stick with the discussion topic if possible, pls and thank you ❤️

jovial yacht
#

how dare you delete this masterpeace

#

and it was a good summary of the conversation so far

silk stag
#

How about if ultima only scaled off of one element at a time it would still deal mix of all elements but like if you use should of achlys then you have to blight the raid with holy or dark blight for the adorn to work as it does or raid has to be weak to holy or dark on it's own

I am no mage and i don't use ultima but i don't want a good spell butchered
And i think single elemental scaling should solve most of this threads issues 👍

lavish kayak
#

there should be no more ultima issues anymore, you won't see broken ultima screenshots from now on

unreal hemlock
#

There were also suggestions regarding making boosts that specifically avoid boosting omnimancies, or boosts with downsides (like +water -fire)

#

All of which would do a good job at enabling non-ultima elemental play without necessarily needing to neuter ultima

silk stag
#

I agree

#

And the main power surge Prometheus hands are looked at

rapid bridge
#

Oh no Abyss quit? RiP 😦

Also yeah, promo hands too good at throwing hands.

stable mango
gleaming mesa
nocturne nacelle
#

That's 50% extra damage

rapid bridge
nocturne nacelle
#

And I had celestial bow with 5 Prometheus hands

jovial yacht
#

isn't zerk 3 alone 50%

nocturne nacelle
#

That's 2.48x damage there alone

gleaming mesa
#

doesnt matter, you used everything you could on heretic vs not everything on realm

nocturne nacelle
#

Also I had lost art which is another 1.3-1.4x

gleaming mesa
#

and still came out ahead

nocturne nacelle
#

While I used celestial bow with 5 hands, lost art, zerk 3 and 2, att and att++

gleaming mesa
#

ok so no celestial staff on heretic

#

but that's not the point

jovial yacht
nocturne nacelle
#

And there's a difference of 27 Als

gleaming mesa
#

so without shrooms, what else could you use in both cases?

#

heretic: nothing
RS: gunnr

#

so to reach the same DPS we need snotra

#

and you call that OP?

jovial yacht
#

not having 5 prom on heretic is a MASSIVE change

#

you could multiply this number by 2

nocturne nacelle
nocturne nacelle
#

If my heretic had that many it would have been one hit

nocturne nacelle
#

It would have been one hit otherwise

regal quail
#

It looks like many ideas have been thrown out regarding reworking ultima. I would just like to provide some perspective on the issues, and really what I believe is the key issue: there are some classes that deal significantly more damage than other classes.

Let's face it, orna is a unique rpg. In other rpgs, the different classes play different roles, tankers to tank, healers to heal, dps to do dmg. In orna, although there are different classes, there is basically 1 objective for all classes: deal as much dmg as u can without dying. This is true for heretic, summoner, rs, beo, deity, even gilga the tank.

If this is the only objective, then everyone is going to be measured based on the 2 criteria: survivability and damage. Given that pve survivability becomes a moot point with sufficient AL, the only thing left for people to focus on is damage. And herein lies the problem: some classes deal a lot more damage than others.

Therefore, whatever is done will need to head in a direction where all classes can reach similar max dmg, with the flavour coming from possibly diff classes having diff strengths on diff mobs, or diff game modes. So things like gating the skill on deity doesn't work, as it does not solve the main issue at hand. I believe giving melee a similar dmg skill will go a long way to reduce the disparity.

spring quarry
#

Ultima being overtuned is not a class problem. Virtually everyone that can use Ultima, uses Ultima.
The clearest example being of course that it's a Deity skill but everyone talks about Heretic in this thread. 😛

It's better than whatever follower thing beo has going on, it's better than whatever summon thing GS has going on.
It's better than whatever other spells mages would use except maybe Ara Vesta on HAra specifically.

Realm and Gilga can use Ultima as-is, with a hybrid amity. The big lack there is all-class equippable staves for Sequencer, but it's close to being a strong option even on the least magicky classes in the game. And now with Ultimastrikes, Ultima's problems of scaling from everything are gonna show up there too.

jovial yacht
spring quarry
#

Thwack amity isn't an Ultima-specific thing. 🤷‍♂️ That and the prometheus steady hands making crit damage go bonkers is a different thread.

#

Other than "Ultima scales with crit, because it scales with everything, which is really the topic here".

nocturne nacelle
frozen locust
#

Everyone thought Big Forg Gilga ultima builds were a meme...till they weren't 😄

pale oasis
#

Gilgamage hasn't ever been exclusively a meme 😅

nocturne nacelle
green hamlet
nocturne nacelle
#

Yeah

green hamlet
#

So zerk 2 and 3 would be more? And didn't you also have zerk 1?

nocturne nacelle
#

Yep, zerk 2 and Zerk 3 is more

#

But one if similar to gunnr or snotra

pale oasis
#

but yeah, to the aforementioned point.. Ultima is not a class thing. sometimes class things exacerbate Ultima's inherent issue, but Ultima is not class-specific. all classes that can use it does use it. that's essentially just.. not Realm, as it has a double digit magic stat (also separate to this all).

also, generally speaking, screenshots are terrible ways to discuss things with objectivity. all numbers for all skills/spells are known, as are the damage boosts associated with it all. just.. math it out. I'd seen some attempts at it, and I commend those

nocturne nacelle
#

Since gunnr/snotra is 50% extra att/mag

north trellis
green hamlet
#

Which is smart

jovial yacht
velvet epoch
#

These uneven comparisons geeking me out

#

Love the numbers discussion above though that was quality. Ult2 vs ult vs fey unst

green hamlet
#

What about ultimastrikes tho

spring quarry
#

whereas 40% is the thwack amity value.

spring quarry
pale oasis
jovial yacht
gleaming mesa
#

it's not additive

#

that's the base value, 2.5x

jovial yacht
#

So it's all multiplicative with a base of 2 ?

outer marlin
#

it's multiplicative with a base of 2 unless you're realm or heretic, then it's a base of 2.5

pale oasis
#

(nyx is 2.25x but whatever)

jovial yacht
#

25% more damage innately is still massive for no real counter part IMO

gleaming mesa
#

sure, but if you want 100% crit you give up some stats

#

and crit spells do less damage than others when they dont crit

jovial yacht
#

5 prom + wyrm song + innate ultima %... what did you lost ?

unreal hemlock
#

yeah those three things together add up to over 100% which is... kinda silly

gleaming mesa
#

thats before prom hands tbh

unreal hemlock
#

Yeah. The hands are a different problem altogether

#

Which I'm sure ~everyone agrees are overtuned

distant bobcat
#

Prom hands invalidated the grind before towers dropped. Change my mind 😅

jovial yacht
#

and even if it's true, what you lose, everyone do. Except heretic still have 25% more damage for no reason.

gleaming mesa
#

and realm

#

and other classes have their strengths obviously

spring quarry
jovial yacht
#

all endgame is crit > some classes have innate stronger crit > they are better. Sounds logic to me

unreal hemlock
#

Yeah, they're already under the radar, so there's not much of a point

olive plover
#

The reason is being the phisical and magical dps classes, to differentiated from the others

unreal hemlock
gleaming mesa
jovial yacht
gleaming mesa
#

this is a conversation for another topic

jovial yacht
#

I don't think so, because the spell being crit you have to keep in mind that some classes have much higher damage on crit.

distant bobcat
#

Yep. Let’s focus on skill and not classes

#

There are other threads. Not sure why class always gets brought up here

spring quarry
#

agreed^. Class Balance isn't the goal of Ultima changes -- questions are like "what should mages be doing other than Ultima?", "what enemies should be strong against Ultima?", etc.

jovial yacht
#

just like you have to keep in mind GS passive to light/dark

#

because of those 2 classes, if you make ultima no crit, heretic will cry, if you make ultima no element, GS will cry. So yes you have to keep classes in mind

gleaming mesa
#

so my concerns about ultima nerfs are:

#

  • M1 = 4 (endless nerf)
    It's the only spell with a high M1 that can crit. If this is lowered,
    heretic's (and deity) ability to do endless receives a huge nerf.
    After F200 you either use ultima (and hope for a crit) or chip away at zerk mobs.

    • 2 turn cast spells (sequencer useless)
      (now with Vesta, this isn't such a huge concern anymore, but still)

Ultima still is the only (out of 3) good spell to use with sequencer.
Take out 40% damage/10 achly souls/or the ability to crit and it's back to being worse than a 1 turn spell.
Going back to the damage comparison pic i posted, Ultima (prom + souls) has the same DPS as Vesta (prom + sigil)

- **Weakness**

The "problem" exists when weakness comes into play. I agree that with an innate weakness, ultima is better than any spell.
I dont count Lotan and other blight pets since you have a 15% chance to stick a blight and lose DC. This is only good for meme screenshots IMO.

So then how many raids have a natural weakness? in T10 only 1 b.polly (+3 other ygg/kerb/covyn)
Not many, but i can see how this stops NF from adding weak raids.
I can see a nerf coming here.

pale oasis
#

hey, for the folks with AV. what's the fade chance (eg. 20%/turn, 10%/turn) of aquila sigil?

#

alternatively, you can give a guesstimate of the uptime (eg. 90%, 80%)

#

I'm inclined to say 80% uptime, but wanted additional thoughts

gleaming mesa
#

i never bothered to count

pale oasis
#

that has been my (admittedly limited!) experience with it

outer marlin
#

Speaking of m1: AV has an m1 of 2.5 which is higher than any melee option other than the buffed attack button and horizontal slash 3

pale oasis
#

FB3 🤡

outer marlin
#

ah yeah full bend 3 has an m1=3

pale oasis
#

anyways, apologies for incoming wall of text but.. I wanted to do the math 🙂

#

Ultima I
M1=4.0, M2=1.0

  • faction: 1.25
  • bulwark: 1.2
  • soul of achlys x10: (1.02^2)^10 (M2=~1.49)
  • weakness: 2.4
  • dualcast: 1.2
  • quickcast: 1.3 (M2=0.65, for per turn numbers)
  • sequencer: 1.15 (counted as M1, but is a greater effect)

M1=4.6, M2={weak=4.1725..., nonweak=1.7386...} = {weak=~19.19, nonweak=~8.00}/turn

Ultima II
M1=6.0, M2=1.0

  • faction: 1.25
  • bulwark: 1.2
  • soul of achlys x10: (1.02^2)^10 (M2=~1.49)
  • weakness: 2.4
  • dualcast: 1.2
  • quickcast: 1.15 (M2=0.3833..., for per turn numbers)
  • sequencer: 1.15 (counted as M1, but is a greater effect)

M1=6.9, M2={weak=2.4607..., nonweak=1.0253...} = {weak=~16.97, nonweak=~7.07}/turn

Realm Strikes (+15% accuracy eg. 3x ARR)
M1=1.0, M2=4.0

  • faction: 1.25
  • swashbuckler: 1.5 (counted as M1, but is a greater effect)

M1=1.5, M2=5 = 7.50/turn

Realm Strikes (base 15% miss)
M1=1.0, M2=3.4

  • faction: 1.25
  • swashbuckler: 1.5 (counted as M1, but is a greater effect)

M1=1.5, M2=4.25 = ~6.38/turn

Fey Unstables
M1=1.0, M2=10.0

  • faction: 1.25
  • dualcast: 1.2
  • quickcast: 1.15 (M2=0.3833..., for per turn numbers)
  • sequencer: 1.15 (counted as M1, but is a greater effect)

M1=1.15, M2=5.75 = ~6.61/turn

Ara Vesta I/II
M1=2.5, M2=1.0

  • aquila: 1.8 (assuming 80% uptime)
  • here/ara: 1.15
  • dualcast: 1.2
  • sequencer: 1.15 (counted as M1, but is a greater effect)

M1=2.875, M2=2.484 = ~7.14/turn

Horizontal Slash
M1=2.6, M2=1.0

  • faction: 1.25
  • swashbuckler: 1.5 (counted as M1, but is a greater effect)

M1=3.9, M2=1.25 = ~4.88/turn

UNIVERSAL BOOSTERS, NOT INCLUDED ON A PER-SKILL BASIS, ALL M2
Crit (base): 2.0
Crit (Heretic/Realmshifter): 1.25
Crit (amity): 1.4
Prometheus: 5x: 2.48832
Phoenix: 2.0
Lugus Gauntlets: 2.0

SUMMARISED COMPARISONS
Ultima I: {weak=~19.19, nonweak=~8.00}/turn
Ultima II: {weak=~16.97, nonweak=~7.07}/turn
Realm Strikes (no miss): 7.50/turn
Realm Strikes (base): ~6.38/turn
Fey Unstables: ~6.61/turn
Ara Vesta I/II: ~7.14/turn
Horizontal Slash III: ~4.88/turn

jovial yacht
#

what's you best physical M1 ?

stiff latch
#

Horizontal Slash 3 was it?

outer marlin
#

the attack button if you have enough buffs

#

horizontal slash 3 from gilga ursa has an m1 of 2.6

distant bobcat
#

I though gs 3/4 had the best due to high M1 and M2. But I don’t know the math

jovial yacht
#

best physical m1 is 2.6 so how nerfing ultima 4 will destroy the spell ?

pale oasis
#

pulling this out of the post...
SUMMARISED COMPARISONS
Ultima I: {weak=~19.25, nonweak=~8.02}/turn
Ultima II: {weak=~17.03, nonweak=~7.09}/turn
Realm Strikes (accuracy): 7.50/turn
Realm Strikes (base): ~6.38/turn
Fey Unstables: ~6.61/turn
Ara Vesta I/II: ~7.14/turn

#

I can add HS3, for argument's sake

#

un momento

lavish kayak
#

did blood pact got intentionally left out on that one

gleaming mesa
#

add ultimastrikes mimic

jovial yacht
#

HS3 being celestial locked is also meh

pale oasis
lavish kayak
#

oh right infinite m1 i forgot

pale oasis
#

essentially

#

and extremely variable M2

#

it also doesn't crit, so it's sort of out of scope here

jovial yacht
pale oasis
gleaming mesa
#

hard?

pale oasis
#

Ultimastrikes is the ~only skill I don't know/can't get the M1/M2 of other than BP

#

and I don't care to do an hour of menial testing atm. i'm just drafting this as a basic comparison point

green hamlet
pale oasis
#

SUMMARISED COMPARISONS
Ultima I: {weak=~19.19, nonweak=~8.00}/turn
Ultima II: {weak=~16.97, nonweak=~7.07}/turn
Realm Strikes (no miss): 7.50/turn
Realm Strikes (base): ~6.38/turn
Fey Unstables: ~6.61/turn
Ara Vesta I/II: ~7.14/turn
Horizontal Slash III: ~4.88/turn

#

i was literally about to tag you

#

lol

#

just barely beat me to pressing enter

outer marlin
#

Can't wait for some god tier crit + elemental dmg amity to be found and ultima goes to over 10/turn on nonweak

pale oasis
#

i'd maybe also pin the summarised one

median crest
unreal hemlock
#

I was just catching up to it :p

pale oasis
median crest
#

The M1 of ultima is 4, but when done the math, it's 2.99

pale oasis
#

yes, per turn.

median crest
#

But the penetration is the same, only thing going down is the dmg

#

Dividing M1 and M2 by 2 is a bigger nerf than it should

pale oasis
#

this is not, and cannot, be a perfect comparison. all of these skills/spells have varying M1/M2 splits, and base multipliers (eg. seq's 1.15, swash's 1.5) are separate to them both

#

I did not divide M2 by 2

median crest
#

Then I think M2 should be divided by 2 instead of M1

pale oasis
#

for multi-turns I split their primary damage (M1 for U, M2 for FUs) by turns taken

outer marlin
#

This comparison doesn't factor in enemy def so it doesn'tmatter either way

pale oasis
#

^

#

I think that is splitting hairs. the overarching point of the comparison is the summarised "total multipliers"

outer marlin
#

you can just add on as an extra point that the m1 skills also are stronger on high def opponents

median crest
#

M1 is usually more valuable than M2 either way, even if it's not a very important thing, it should still be counted on

unreal hemlock
#

Also ultima is winning on ~every account, even without the enemy defenses being considered

pale oasis
#

I can't provide perfect accuracy, nor can I add caveats for every distinction that exists (and there are many!). It should be understood as a generalised comparison, not a perfect one. It works for this discussion, but on a per-encounter basis it won't hold up as well

unreal hemlock
#

the more defenses you pile onto the math, the more ultima leaning it will be

gleaming mesa
#

btw, now that i look at the list

#

for RS you only added faction

#

and swash

pale oasis
#

what else is there?

gleaming mesa
#

weakness?

#

lost art?

#

i can think of items

pale oasis
#

are these commonly used? it is a comparison of potential, but i'd think it should also be reasonable

outer marlin
#

you can include a weakness mod of x1.5 and compare it to ultima's weakness mod

#

it'll lose btw

gleaming mesa
#

idk, it feels unfair that you added 10 souls + bulwark

pale oasis
#

Ultima gets a weakness comp. because 1) it always hits a weakness if there is one, and 2) it has an increased multiplier against weaks. i'm not sure it's a common thing for melee to hit weaknesses, but if there's enough people who want to talk about it then.. sure

outer marlin
#

there'd be a relevant dmg boosting adorn and chestpiece for realmstrikes if there was one

pale oasis
#

unless you mean to say bulwark and achlys are not commonly used

green hamlet
#

Although, depending on how your teammate plays it might just be slower than soloing

outer marlin
green hamlet
#

Maybe good for HoF hits

pale oasis
#

there is subjectivity in all of this, so any comparison can only go so far, but as long as context is kept in mind I think it's far more applicable than random damage screenshots

green hamlet
pale oasis
#

that was the goal of drafting it

pale oasis
obtuse badge
#

Sorry if I'm behind on the discussion, but does that comparison show that the main culprit behind ultima producing extreme numbers is exploiting weakness?

spring quarry
#

it's in there. even w/o hitting weak, it has huge damage

pale oasis
outer marlin
#

it has high damage even when not exploiting weakness due to how you can scale the damage up with elemental dmg bonuses that seem to come with little or no downside

runic hill
#

bulwark/achlys are in every baby's first ultima kit, hitting both faction+weakness with realmstrikes is situational

distant bobcat
pale oasis
obtuse badge
#

How would the damage compare if ultima was elementless?

pale oasis
#

for brevity's sake, i'll only draft U1 (the better spell either way)

#

one sec

pale oasis
obtuse badge
#

I guess excluding since it wouldn't have an element, right?

pale oasis
#

I'd think that's changing Ultima's entire identity so 😬

outer marlin
#

then it'd have the lowest damage of them all, and also completely remove its identity as a spell which is not something anyone wants (I hope)

pale oasis
#

Ultima I (THEORETICAL ELEMENTLESS RE: DAMAGE BOOSTS)
M1=4.0, M2=1.0

  • weakness: 2.4
  • sequencer: 1.15 (counted as M1, but is a greater effect)
  • dualcast: 1.2
  • quickcast: 1.3 (effectively: M1=2.6/t)

M1=2.99, M2={weak=2.88, nonweak=1.2} = {weak=~8.61, nonweak=~3.59}/turn

#

so yeah, Ultima being elementless wouldn't really make sense without additional tuning

#

but additional tuning should be an option imho

#

but, interestingly enough, even without any further tuning, keeping the weak mult places it as the best (non current ultima) by a significant enough margin -- 15% higher than Realm Strikes

outer marlin
#

Unless the enemy is weak to your faction element

#

then realmstrikes/fey unstables could do more damage

pale oasis
#

yes, good point. this theoretical ultima would be a universal thing -- any weak makes it good, but if you know that the weakness aligns with your faction then it would be overtaken

#

so this Ultima's place is ease of use more than anything

distant bobcat
#

But there are not many raids (if any) that have a faction elemental weakness.

#

Holy/dark/arcane

pale oasis
#

none that are applicable to T10/11, no. there are some like the T5 scruug with a fire weak

#

but that's just bullying toddlers so it's irrelevant to this conversation, really

#

the big thing would be the titan fights

distant bobcat
#

Fair on titan fights. An option to be competitive with ultima is for melee users to spend a dollar or two per tower to change factions.

#

But that might not be worth talking about to fix the issue

pale oasis
#

no, i wouldn't say so. I would classify exploiting weaknesses as almost exclusively an Ultima thing

#

it's a thing for faction damage only sometimes, and only if convenient

#

another noteworthy thing is, for Realm Strikes/Fey Unstables, faction bonus can't always be used due to res/imms. Ultima uses faction bonus regardless of it all

distant bobcat
pale oasis
#

but yeah i don't really want to add a billion caveats to (what's supposed to be) a generalised comparison

distant bobcat
#

Agreed. Better to think apple to apple here

#

Non elements resist

pale oasis
#

Ultima I (PARTIAL ELEMENTAL DAMAGE BOOSTS)
M1=4.0, M2=1.0

  • faction: 1.03125
  • bulwark: 1.025
  • soul of achlys x10: 1.06125
  • weakness: 2.4 (?)
  • sequencer: 1.15 (counted as M1, but is a greater effect)
  • dualcast: 1.2
  • quickcast: 1.3 (effectively: M1=2.6/t)

M1=2.99, M2={weak=3.2307..., nonweak=1.3461...} = {weak=~9.6598..., nonweak=~4.025...}/turn

#

I thought this was interesting

#

essentially taking single elemental bonuses and slashing them to 1/8th, as Ultima is 8 elements

#

another interesting one I wanted to explore was holy/dark/arc/drag only Ultima. the thought being Deity's "breaking the traditions of elemental alignment"

Ultima I (NON-BASIC ELEMENTS ONLY)
M1=4.0, M2=1.0

  • bulwark: 1.05
  • soul of achlys x10: 1.1225
  • weakness: 2.4
  • sequencer: 1.15 (counted as M1, but is a greater effect)
  • dualcast: 1.2
  • quickcast: 1.3 (effectively: M1=2.6/t)

M1=2.99, M2={weak=3.39444, nonweak=1.41435} = {weak=~10.15..., nonweak=~4.23...}/turn

#

one thing to note here is that bonuses are slashed to 1/4th instead of 1/8th, so this allows for holy/dark/arc/drag stuff to actually exist without them just being Ultima nonsense. for instance achlys souls could be increased safely, as their effect for mono-element (1.02/per) aren't particularly noteworthy. also something such as Themis's holy augs wouldn't have to be toned down (largely in part) thanks to Ultima

#

I was curious what fractional boosts for Ultima would look like and, it turns out, it'd still be a useful spell. it would no longer be universally the best, though. it wouldn't be as much power for as little effort as it is now

outer marlin
#

I think themis shoulders still needed to be toned down, holy melee skills could do quite a lot with those

#

don't think you can justify over 3x dmg from adorns alone

pale oasis
#

yeah, I agree. a 1.2-1.3x mult on a single Titan augment is just too much

distant bobcat
pale oasis
#

the main point is "mono-elemental boosts could exist without being ultima fodder". bulwark is an interesting piece, but adding more items like it (eg. in head, legs, offhand, accessory) would currently just.. break ultima

#

essentially robbing those elements of useful/cool stuff as useful/cool for that element

outer marlin
#

but imagine slotting 5 different elemental boosts in your ultima gauntlet and oneshotting half of the universe though

pale oasis
#

it's up to NFS to decide whether this game is solely about power fantasy or not. currently, that's the endgame. ultima shenanigans, infinite ascension scaling, speed being the primary metric, not consistency (correlates to difficulty).

runic hill
#

I was wondering about making the elemental multipliers add into their own term instead of being individually multiplicative and looks like it's ~15.9 (weak) ~6.38 nonweak, although GS would hate this uniquely more than everyone else harold

pale oasis
#

that'd change a little, but not a ton. it wouldn't weaken ultima in a significant enough way that other things are worth considering

#

that's a change that's worth doing if the spell was only a little overtuned, not its current state of "outdamages everything without weak mults and then deletes the enemy if they have a weakness"

unreal hemlock
#

Regarding the eventual deviation towards Augment talk, should I open a Celestial Augment thread?

balmy hedge
#

sure, one more dumpster fire constructive thread where all opinions are data-driven and respectful can't hurt

pale oasis
balmy hedge
#

idk tho, like the problems with augments are sort of well understood i think?

unreal hemlock
#

Hands would probably be the less important of the talk tbh

#

more like, to gauge people's opinions on other titans' other body parts

distant bobcat
#

I made that note above to keep this convo on ultima

balmy hedge
#

wow are we objectifying titans now

#

but yes ok that would be helpful

spring quarry
#

Well... kinda.

On one hand, you have Odie saying that Celestial Weapons shouldn't strictly outclass other weapons.
On the other, you have people who got a 3.7x in the weapon slot and then complained that it became only a 2.5x.

#

That'd be the augment discussion.

distant bobcat
#

^

pale oasis
#

I also used unrounded numbers for Achlys, so the end numbers changed ever so slightly for the Ultimas (by 0.02-0.06). I wanted to be perfectly accurate as far as the multipliers are concerned

#

U1 being 8.00/turn is very cute imo

unreal hemlock
#

#1089980998617411624

pale oasis
nocturne nacelle
spring quarry
#

!skille full bend

steep onyxBOT
#
Skill
Full Bend

Loose an arrow with great might, either missing or dealing critical damage while breaking an opponent's defenses.

Tier

3

Mana

100

Causes

Def ↓

Learns

Hunter

Monsters

Pollux

Followers

Pollux

Information
Pierce (M1): 1.75
Damage (M2): 1
Attack Count (C): 1
Turns: 1
Critical Hit Chance: 5%
Data from OrnaGuide (https://orna.guide/) Damage = (Att x M1 - Def / 2) x M2 x C
spring quarry
#

that... version3

outer marlin
#

hunter and ranger specs have that skill

#

selene has full bend 3

#

ah, it's full bend 2 that has m1=3

#

idk how much full bend 3 is

#

no one can use that skill other than selene

nocturne nacelle
nocturne nacelle
#

20 with two 10 slot staffs

pale oasis
#

I am not counting two staves

#

see the bottom of the comparison list for why

nocturne nacelle
pale oasis
nocturne nacelle
pale oasis
spring quarry
#

achlys is 1.02x holy, 1.02x dark.
ultima benefits from both sides of this.

nocturne nacelle
#

1.02^2^10

pale oasis
#

1.02 = 2%/boost
^2 = 2 boosts, as it is holy and dark
^10 = 10 adorns

nocturne nacelle
#

That's what was written

spring quarry
#

OH. gotcha

#

yeah 1.02^(2*10), not 1.02^1024

nocturne nacelle
#

Yeah this

pale oasis
#

OoO, my calculator takes 1.02^2^10 as (1.02^2)^10

runic hill
#

That’s the standard order of operations

pale oasis
#

yup

nocturne nacelle
#

It is, but to make it simple for everyone we have ([{}]) these

spring quarry
#

+1 always parens

pale oasis
#

i.. sure. this is why the estimated multiplier (~1.49) is in parentheses beside it 😅

#

edited it. I did not mean for this thread to become "discuss how major types his numbers", but oops 😅

runic hill
#

splitting hairs when it's clear what is actually meant lol

pale oasis
#

is this where I send a picture of my TI-83+ lol

nocturne nacelle
pale oasis
nocturne nacelle
pale oasis
#

It was 😛

#

all the discussion about the comparison post is why posting the breakdown of things can be counterproductive. it's much easier to nitpick how things are stated when the results are unchanged either way

#

had I posted just the final two points, none of it would have happened lmao

nocturne nacelle
#

How does the raid boss scaling works?

#

Is it 200% stats at almost 1% hp?

runic hill
#

don't need to know if you just one shot with ultima harold

nocturne nacelle
runic hill
#

i've seen damage cap ultimas from hybrid amity rs

pale oasis
nocturne nacelle
#

So how does M1 affect these?

median crest
#

The more M1, the less attack you need to pierce through it's defenses

#

The more M2, the more dmg you deal for each att that has pierced through the defences

runic hill
pale oasis
# nocturne nacelle So how does M1 affect these?

damage is a subtractive formula, so M1 helps you clear that "threshold" where you deal damage.

att/mag * M1 - def/res is the simplified formula, so either M1 / +att/mag have a huge effect on ending damage if that subtractive part is close to even (so being zeroed out). it's particularly noticeable on things with high M2, as that happens after the subtractive part.

if you have an M2 of 2.5 (a standard crit on here/realm), but only deal 10k then it's not doing much. if you pierce better, so you're doing 20k (which isn't necessarily M1 *= 2, it could be M1 *= 1.1) your M2 effects have more to multiply.

if you can't pierce then no amount of M2 is going to do anything. something with an M1=0 (def/res always subtracts your att/mag * M1 to 0) could have 15 trillion M2 and still deal zero

#

i don't know how to simplify the explanation beyond "multiply your att/mag by M1, then minus enemy def/res, then apply m2 effects"

nocturne nacelle
pale oasis
# nocturne nacelle Yeah, I get that

then you're golden. it's fairly tough to grasp the actual effect of increasing M1/att/mag, but it really is a gigantic effect for many players in many situations.

It's only at the endgame where everyone's att/mag is so high compared to every (PvE) enemy's def/res that M1 may as well be M2

stiff latch
#

Another way to think about it is that each point of def/res lowers damage by (overall M2)/2.
So an M1 = 1 M2 = 10 loses 10x as much damage per point than an M1 = 4 M2 = 1 skill

nocturne nacelle
#

Just like how Realmstrikes deal 0 on gargoyle while HS kills it.

pale oasis
#

really just those last 3. Towers got outscaled pretty hard once folks got used to all the encounters

nocturne nacelle
#

Yeah, players rediscovered some skills

outer marlin
#

there's a few enemies where you can notice def

#

like that berserk bear with triple def up

#

hit it with magic and it instantly dies though

nocturne nacelle
outer marlin
#

I know

pale oasis
outer marlin
#

it's just an example where if you were to hit it with an m1=1 move at a high floor

#

you might be in for a surprise

nocturne nacelle
#

So in endless Ultima becomes even more powerful compared to others

#

As it has the highest M1 of every spell and skill

pale oasis
#

berserks are really the only fights in Towers where M1 matters

stiff latch
#

Does also require 2 turns most of the time mind

outer marlin
#

default attack has better piercing, and ultima beign two turns is a potential danger in endless

nocturne nacelle
pale oasis
nocturne nacelle
#

Hmm

#

I need to test some more skills to get some numbers

pale oasis
#

really tough enemies though, yeah, Ultima can be the preferred choice. if AV/Omni takes 3 turns but maybe U1 kills in 2 turns, for example

outer marlin
#

The one beoH endless I did I spammed verse 4 and only used ultima when I really needed it

nocturne nacelle
gleaming mesa
#

you need it at F200

outer marlin
#

I didn't use ultima until like f500, although that was depth endless. Might need it sooner in orn gear

pale oasis
# nocturne nacelle So does attack button

attack button is terrible, in my opinion. yes, it's technically the highest M1 in the game, but the total damage is not good. comparing it to HS3 (since it's the thing being brought up here), attack deals 38% of what HS3 deals against 0def. it will take a lot for that ratio to stop being net negative

nocturne nacelle
#

There's AV

gleaming mesa
#

you can take 3 turns to kill a zerk, more if he has MF

nocturne nacelle
gleaming mesa
#

or use ultima

nocturne nacelle
pale oasis
#

attack is cited as the highest M1 from a technicality standpoint, but it isn't practical or game-changing. most of the time it's used because it's enough, and it's free, not because the piercing is required

nocturne nacelle
#

I don't think so.

#

They don't even have 250k hp at this point

gleaming mesa
#

then go try it to convince yourself

nocturne nacelle
gleaming mesa
#

i doubt this

#

but w/e

pale oasis
#

not overly relevant to the discussion thread's purpose, though. that interaction isn't an Ultima thing, nor is it considered to be out of line/unfun

gleaming mesa
#

but it is relevant

#

i saw many people want to nerf ultima's M1

pale oasis
#

that's not an Ultima thing, nor is it even a multi-turn exclusive thing. think def/res shredding

spring quarry
#

Ultima could lose some M1 and still have the highest M1.
That's, in fact, the change that NF first tried out in the beta.

Ultima1 M1=4, Ultima2 M1=6 -> Ultima1 M1=3, Ultima2 M1=4, Ultima3 M1=5

pale oasis
#

that got roflstomped as soon as folks got wind of it

#

additional context was U3 being 4 turn -- so U1/U2/U3 being 2/3/4 turns respectively ^

nocturne nacelle
#

The major misconception about Ultima M1 is that they all think there's attack button which has the highest M1.

gleaming mesa
#

could lose some M1 and also lose 200F of endless :)

nocturne nacelle
#

Though attack has it

#

But it's not that great

spring quarry
nocturne nacelle
#

While Ultima is oneshot kill

pale oasis
#

citing basic attack's "M1" has almost always lacked the relevant context

gleaming mesa
#

av is zero'd out very quick

nocturne nacelle
nocturne nacelle
gleaming mesa
#

also with 5% crit it's not worth using

#

major knows

outer marlin
#

it has 2.5 which shouldn't zero out that quick unless you don't have any magic

spring quarry
#

this might be talking about orn-endless, which is quite low mag (and attack) stat

nocturne nacelle
#

Lol if AV zeros out, then there's no skill which would remain

gleaming mesa
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exactly

spring quarry
#

yeah, orn endless blows for everyone except GS

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see also #1084941152534413343

amber tide
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Nearly 3k comments, wowee

nocturne nacelle
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And does attack button works same for you guys too?

outer marlin
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it should

pale oasis
nocturne nacelle
outer marlin
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I deal 0 dmg when I have gunnr up since it cuts beo's attack button m1 by 90%

gleaming mesa
pale oasis
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I could be wrong though

outer marlin
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at the very least buffs affect piercing for mage default attacks too

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I just don't know how strong it is

nocturne nacelle
jovial yacht
unreal hemlock
gleaming mesa
nocturne nacelle
pale oasis
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yeah, I don't know why you would lol

nocturne nacelle
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I want to know

pale oasis
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anyone can test anything 😛

nocturne nacelle
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True, I also have the gear for it

amber tide
unreal hemlock
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Oh yeah, that reminds me

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please ping me or any online moderator if you want something pinned

jovial yacht
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can't wait for Odie to read the civil war between RS and Heretics to know who's the biggest (numbers)

unreal hemlock
gleaming mesa
nocturne nacelle
unreal hemlock
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Could've sworn I had pinned that. I guess my brain forgor after seeing Major's wall

pale oasis
gleaming mesa
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for the moment

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i'm mainly trying to divert attention away from the spell and more to the multipliers

pale oasis
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yes, so the problem does not only exist "when weakness comes into play". that's my point, hence my citation of that part specifically

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i'll write up something dedicated and opinion based at some point. it'll be easier to do now that i've gone through and done the calculations for it and other comparable stuff

gleaming mesa
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so a mage's attack is weaker