Major Hardpoint Changes Suggestion - Discussed with Glen

[ivory shoal]

it goes the same for any comp game

bring 2018 krunker back

[static venture]

yo just add throwing knives to comp

i wanna see some sandstorm lineups

[wary panther]

W platy

[exotic crag]

fax unc

[mossy nova]

I think tdm'ing, spawntrapping all that adds an extra layer to the game

if you remove it by semi-punishing those who choose to do this it just removes an aspect of the game

allowing more casuals to not get farmed on once they hit gold/dia and spend more money + brings in more revenuefrom ads, its purely an economical aspect

simplifying the game makes it appeal more to casuals and literally just removes an aspect of the game just for appeal

its crazy, we either gotta take this boring update and hope we get more of an audience as comp for it, or we let the comp game with its uniqueness die

especially since its "Discussed with glen" just makes even more sense that he has motive to push for a change that will make them more money instead of improving their approach

[viscid folio]

as someone who doesn't play hardpoint at all, I think this would be a good idea

[echo glade]

its not a choice most of the times

just forced to do it

to win

[echo glade]

💀

[viscid folio]

?

[echo glade]

how is it good it just makes npcs even more stronger

💀

qb agario doingpurposes will drop 2k elo instead of 1k everygame and forever stay on master coz they will only lose 10 elo when they lose the game meanwhile someone who drops 10-20x of their kills and gets -30 -40 elo

[steep seal]

Just to clarify, this was my idea that I brought up to help ranked/casual players. Glen thought it was good but worth having a discussion over it more than anything.

Updated idea from lage, if anyone wants to discuss over. I'll pin as well for anybody late.

i think speeding up is better, something like this might encourage more point play but not nerf tdming and pushing off as much cuz rn u get way too much reward for just sitting
maybe something like this:
1 on = 1.5s
2 on = 1.25s
3 on = 1.10s
4 on = 1s

comparison in 4v4 (obj for 10s):

1 on -> same obj
2 on -> current suggestion 133; speeding up 160
3 on -> current suggestion 300; speeding up 272
4 on -> current suggestion 533; speeding up 400

its a big difference

[mossy nova]

Yes but you framing it as "Discussed with glen" looks more to people that are not aware that its just another game going to the trenches bcs of greed by the company. If your target is to eliminate tdm just say it

[steep seal]

It comes to perspective, helping casual players doesnt mean greed always lol

I think gap between becoming good now is like u just need 5+ years of experience or when I played back in the day literal fps pros who could learn the game fast

When wall jumping was added people complained it was shifting the meta away from slow play to faster off site plays

[mossy nova]

Think of it like Bedwars: sometimes the best strategic play is to throw yourself into the void. You lose your position/advantage temporarily, but you respawn with access to resources, better defense options, and a faster rotation back into the fight. In comp, TDM’ing works the same way. You take a short-term loss (less obj points) to secure a better long term position may it be a stronger rotation, map control, or a timing advantage. It’s a deliberate, strategic advantage, not a lack of skill or a cheesy move

[mossy nova]

And now we are converting back to slow site plays?

[echo glade]

yea

[mossy nova]

The title says "discussed with glen". Perspective --> glen and you have it figured out already. And even if there is majority vote, we won't be able to stop it. That's my own personal perspective while it also doesn't really help glen when he is not responding to my DM'S (ghosting) makes me feel even more uncomfortable about someone.

[mossy nova]

Then why do you want to remove the part of a competitive game that requires skill

[echo glade]

i dont i am literally against it

[mossy nova]

Great

[echo glade]

i dont want more masters who should be bronze / silvers just coz they STACK and now will get 2k obj instead of 1k and gain even more elo after winning with 1 kill 20 deaths and 1k obj and lose only 10 elo after losing the game with same 1 kill 20 death 1k obj

[mossy nova]

And do you also get ignored by the krunker staff team or is it some kind of personal vendetta they have against only me

[echo glade]

and this change will just give them more power

[echo glade]

when i say some dumb shit yea but usually no 💀

coz i have a habbit of just instantly dmming the first thing that comes to my mind

[mossy nova]

Aha

So they do indeed just ghost people the moment they start criticizing something

That's odd (its not)

[echo glade]

but mostly i just talk with mooga

with skins stuff and allat

[mossy nova]

we will have to wait on a reply, if they feel obligated

[steep seal]

Glen asked specifically for this to be community based lol

Even if he thinks this is good

and the intentions are good

[mossy nova]

then why is he ignoring community members?

[steep seal]

Do you think the creaters of bedwar intended that mechanic?

[mossy nova]

I am not the creater of bedwars?

[steep seal]

the problem is

instead of going near to site

[mossy nova]

??? slidehopping was a bug

[steep seal]

just answer the question bro

[mossy nova]

our game's movement mechanic is a bug

[steep seal]

u will have a high ranked player basically running around with sniper

abusing the terrible krunker spawn logic

this just incentivizes those players to play near the site

i agree that these values could be over tuned to the point where it seems stupid to take any roams

im talking about people on 3rd site that jump off and wrap the ENTIRE map

because of close and favorable spawns such as slav mentioned

[mossy nova]

yes but now you punish the people who use it for rotational advantage, etc

since they cant ever use it

and only results in less tdm's not eliminate

[steep seal]

Do you think it is healthy as a viewer perspective and a person trying to understand hardpoint coming in?

[mossy nova]

and tdm'ing will only be cery capitalized on in matches that are a clean 2-0 not the tight 2-1 games you see very often in tournaments

[steep seal]

Me and tjwysk casted a site where there was only 1 person on the site for 30 seconds, because they were all doing these "tdm rotations"

simply because the hardpoint doesn't matter enough

Meta shifts are fine

the truth also is this

u are way better off tdming like u mentioned

the peakers advantage to holding site is awful

with how fast players can go

[mossy nova]

even if the feature was not intended, you are not really fixing the problem, the problem as you described yourself is terrible spawn logic, why are you thinking of a temporary solution, that will not fix the entire problem

it only applies to comp

[steep seal]

spawn logic is insanely harder to fix

and i dont think this is a temporary solution

[mossy nova]

plus you yourself are not addressing my concerns, so I get why you want me to answer but do you think its fair when you yourself dont do this?

[steep seal]

the caveats that @coral summit mentioned with 3v4s and when players have the site early are pretty excellent points

[steep seal]

wdym "dont do this"

[mossy nova]

address my concerns

skip half my text and only address 1/2 part of it

[steep seal]

this first sentence is an assumption that is pretty baseless

compared to like ur points on bedwars which i responded on

like i dont know how to respond to that without us deviating from the convo and both of us turning into brick walls

[mossy nova]

how is my sentence baseless? your title is "discussed with glen" ?

its facts?

is it not?

[steep seal]

Yes these ideas have been discussed with glen but u are assuming it is confirmed and good to go lol

and I told u it isn't

and u still don't believe so

so i dont know what else to say

[mossy nova]

no, I told you that was my perspective when I first read it, is that something you can image?

and also if you read further along those lines

[steep seal]

u want me to respond to this?

[mossy nova]

could you think that I can feel that way bcs of the stuff happened with me?

[mossy nova]

last week, not longer ago

[steep seal]

I don't know what to say

If it isn't involving me

Then I can't really help you

[mossy nova]

ill make it more general for you

[steep seal]

again this is exactly why i didnt address that point because we are deviating from the subject and i feel like we can take this to dms instead

[mossy nova]

lets say, you are getting ignored by a game developer, how would you feel?

[mossy nova]

nah, its fine here

[steep seal]

i would feel ok

in valorant game devs ignore all the time

in krunker we have an expectation of the devs to listen to us

[mossy nova]

sorry, let me rephrase, you had contact, but you made critique to the devs and now they are ignoring you

whatever

[steep seal]

depends on how u made that critique

[mossy nova]

if you think ghosting someone is fine thats okay

[steep seal]

id assume they are doing something else better

i have a way higher tolerance though

so i get where u are coming from emotionally

i went 7 months with no response for weeklies back in 2021, no discussion with devs till this year

how i enjoy and play krunker doesn't revolve around admin stuff though so me talking to glen or leo isn't a necessity

i guess now it is, since im the proxy for comp in a way but b4 it didnt matter much

[mossy nova]

yea so thats bothering me, but still if the point is that the shift is introduced to mainly reduce TDM and spawntrapping then it isnt solving the real issue, the root cause is the spawn logic, and adjusting point distribution is like applying a band aid, and to come back to bedwars, its a slow, zone based playing game, not fast paced like krunker is. high speed, rotation, individual outplays, flanks etc. changing points instead of spawn system just risks removing the depth of instead addressing the actual flaw, which is spawn logic

[steep seal]

there is depth to learning how to anchor sites

it's just right now there is no incentive to play near point, not enough ROI for that style

people don't do it because theyve found a way more effective way that has been trained now for years

[mossy nova]

yes, but there is so much still to learn for a ton of players, why are we removing a layer to the game that adds just this little extra to the game that is what makes it unique

but still not fixing the root cause is weird

[steep seal]

The goal is not to remove the layer

[mossy nova]

its like having a broken leg, but then getting painkillers (point changes) so that the situation feels better for a bit, but the broken bone (the spawn system) is still the actual problem. until you fix the broken leg (root cause) the pain will keep coming back no matter how many painkillers you take, I think the problem will just shift itself, from spawntrapping to something that is still unknown

[steep seal]

are u on the values side or the issues side

guep, lage, etc are on the issue side

then the others that down voted are on the values being extreme

[mossy nova]

game logic issue which should be fixed by devs

this is a temporary solution to a permanent problem

[steep seal]

alright that's ur stance

im just making sure u understand what we are talking about

[echo glade]

some yes majority no people who like to tdm will keep tdming forever no matter if they lose or anything 💀

i personally feel like this should be discussed once ranked is fixed

itll just push most people away rn with how ranked alrdy is

coz if this gets implemented with how ranked is right now

people should just stop playing completely

[mossy nova]

core problem:: spawntrapping/TDM'ing

solution: More dynamic spawn flipping when enemies are nearby? make an "area" where players can spawn, not just 1 static spawn option like we have now. or you can add short grace period when spawned into the game. redesign of maps and block angles that are commonly used for spawntrapping in comp

This fixes spawntrapping issues increasingly more, with **more **impact than adjusting how hardpoints work.
this current change of hardpoints will force a massive meta shift which is not needed if you fix the actual problem, krunker comp is in a very good spot meta wise, balance changes have made gun fights more fair than its ever been, And there are some solutions to spawntrapping already like spawning late (which used to work at some point, idk how much this impacts games nowadays) this proves that you can combat spwantrapping meta, making the game more fair. but I don't think that the change of how you gain points on a hardpoint impacts the real problem we are having, which is fucked up spawn mechanics

[sonic finch]

i actually completely agree

[unkempt cypress]

nvm we need this

[marsh sinew]

Would lowkey be good if let's say u had a leaver/afk and if there were 3 on site it would count as 4 and get 40 per 1.5 seconds instead of 30 but this idea just forces flooding

[mossy nova]

^^

its a mindset problem sometimes

but sometimes not

[steep seal]

It’s just the ceiling of spawn trapping

It’s gotten so high and calculated

And u could play to counter a spawn trap

And you’ll simply lose because of peakers advantage

Not a single hp game where you play for spawn traps, usually bigger maps hurt those type of plays but krunker is very fast paced

[lofty wraith]

I feel like this would only make attacking gate sites even worse as it is. Like imagine you are down 200 by 2nd site on sandstorm and then it switches to gate site and they are 4 stacked and keep spawning after u lose a push? If u lose a push they basically get 600-800 points in 10 seconds depending on how much people u killed and if they spawn on

[steep seal]

oh yeah true

bad spawns especially ones on site can be really detrimental

because ive seen that happen before

[neon owl]

Interesting idea, not sure how I feel about it

[desert canopy]

@glossy wing these guys are clueless, what do you think we should do

[mossy nova]

I don't think anyone in here knows the real problem

Which is concerning

[main hinge]

[desert canopy]

We are not sending you any more fenanyl, cause you’re addicted

[mossy nova]

Okay buddy

[marsh sinew]

Idk why asokra is so against tdming

It's a startegy

It's literally a fundamental

This is 2019 weeklies sorry man

If u don't know how to use basic spawns then ur flat out missing out on a fundamental

Plus would create more flooding

[mossy nova]

Its bcs spawn logic is not properly implemented, so its very easy to abuse this, but I don't think the solution is adding extra points

Its like giving painkillers to someone with a broken bone, you are fixing the problem temporarily while the pain (tdm'ing/spawntrapping) still keeps existing

Devs need to rewrite the code for it, I understand its hard and can't be figured out in 1 day, but try fixing that before implementing this temporary solution which is going to shift the meta completely

[mossy nova]

aka, he wants casuals to not feel like they are being beaten over and over again, which is understandable but hes not fixing the real problem

[marsh sinew]

I wa sjust gonna say just fix spans

Spawns

[glossy wing]

how is that supposed to work on a map like sandstorm for example

[mossy nova]

what would you define as a fix?

I would define it as: "not being able to abuse spawntraps"

would you agree?

[glossy wing]

yea

but hows that supposed to work

map is pretty small

[mossy nova]

so adding dynamic spawns instead of the static ones we have right now would be an option?

[mossy nova]

solution: More dynamic spawn flipping when enemies are nearby? make an "area" where players can spawn, not just 1 static spawn option like we have now. or you can add short grace period when spawned into the game. redesign of maps and block angles that are commonly used for spawntrapping in comp
this is what I suggested

[glossy wing]

ohhh

i mean if they add multiple spawn points on the area of a hardpoint that would help a bit yea

[mossy nova]

I think that plus maybe a very small redesign

but very tiny

for example when B point on sand is being played there is a high chance of the enemy spawning on C site in matches (this due to players watching mid andlong at the same time, game logic is to be spawned into C point. then C point is an easy spawntrap which is being abused all the time by players (as seen in montages) if you give the game more options to spawn people on, in this specific site, 2 or 3 spawn points in that site, players already have more of an advantage than before, since there are 3 spawning options, that makes it harder for enemies to spawntrap, since they have to watch 3 spawning positions at once

[glossy wing]

"or you can add short grace period when spawned into the game" u mean invincibility?

[mossy nova]

I mean invincibility

yes

[glossy wing]

ttk is way too low for that to be implemented id say

[mossy nova]

its all better solutions than reworking the meta on how hardpoint should be played

[mossy nova]

its all arguably better than reworking hardpoint logic which doesnt counter the problem at hand: spawnlogic

[glossy wing]

i mean if they would add that there would be way less tdming prob

[mossy nova]

yes

which solves their problem

instead of shifting it

[glossy wing]

theyd just rat a bit outside of spawn

[mossy nova]

I think a combination of these solutions will ultimately work way better than changing how many points per player you get

[glossy wing]

but dynamic spawns sounds pretty interesting

i could imagine that being in the game

[mossy nova]

I think that plus maybe a better spawn point system would ultimately solve the problem

bcs changing the hardpoint point system is just treating the symptons

[desert canopy]

Too much coding for me

And I’m not even the one doing the coding

Kulikitakatí, kulikitakatá
Kulikitakatí, kulikitakatá
Sakalakatikitakatiki, sakalakatikitakatiki
Sakalakatikitakatiki, sakalakatiki-taka
Kulikitaká, kulikitaká
Kulikitaká, kulikitaká y
Sakalakatikitakatiki, sakalakatikitakatiki
Sakalakatikitakatiki, sakalakatikitaka

[sturdy token]

Yup

[gray bridge]

if ur intention is to help new players i dont get how this idea would help

90% of good players dont take ranked seriously, they just try to kill as many as they can, so they are gonna tdm anyway and still win if the other team is bad

and if the other team has 1 good player then it would be expected of that 1 good player to know how to deal with someone tdming

[gray bridge]

and this doesnt solve the roaming issue

spawn traps really aren't that hard to counter, and if someone good is hard spawn trapping and farming against a bunch of bots then thats on matchmaking

this whole idea is like trying to change valorant because immo's are smurfing in bronze and ego swinging on defence at the start of every round

roaming is op because not only is everyones aim crazy these days, but they can also zoom around at 200 speed and beam on 0ads

if you forced a higher ads then its harder for people to move around fast and aim well at the same time, so if i have a flank im probably getting max 1 kill

and people shouldnt be punished for ratting, because its strategic but still balanced, as attackers can clear angles as a team

but i could be wrong, and thats why i think forced ads should be playtested

[mossy nova]

thats not the issue at hand

[gray bridge]

asokra brought up roaming multiple times

and before this thread he was talking about finding ways to deal with roams

[echo glade]

i personally like to roam around and tdm non stop just to feel like im playing clan wars and spawn trapping

😋

its fun

icl

[gray bridge]

thanks devil

[echo glade]

we shall not get rid of tdming

[mossy nova]

yes, but we concluded that it was not an issue of roaming, it was an issue of spawnlogic

if you want to I can share with you the details of how I got to this conclusion

[gray bridge]

sure

[mossy nova]

since the root cause is not roaming

[gray bridge]

i think ur solution is fine theres no harm in that

where people spawn at different parts of the site

[mossy nova]

and your better off treating the root cause than the symptons

[gray bridge]

is that as far as it goes though

just changing spawn points on sites

[mossy nova]

No

Its not the sole solution

There is not 1 solution, there never is

Multiple solutions implemented work for this, and adding a point change to hardpoint certainly is not a solution, since you are only fixing a symptom

[gray bridge]

im just suprised u guys are caring more about spawn traps over roaming

[mossy nova]

I care about spawn logic, spawn trapping is just a part of the spawn logic problem

Spawn logic being the part that needs a change.
Spawn trapping + roaming is part of the "pain" that comes with bad spawn logic.
Besides that, the other "pain" being the shit codebase the devs have to work with making a change harder than it should be.

To come back on that, title/purpose of this thread is wrong (I believe). Shouldn't focus on a change in hardpoint points per player. Changing the numbers doesn't change how competitive players behave, they will always find the new optimal strategy, even if creates a new problem

[mossy nova]

And to add to that, in playtests in the comp test server these changes don't reflect the reality of the solution

Since players need time to develop these new strategies

[gray bridge]

Roaming can’t be fixed by changing how spawns work

[gray bridge]

I agree with you to an extent

If players were on a forced ads and tried to roam we can see how well it works

The only way they adapt is if they want to play offsite they would probably rat

Which is healthier

[echo glade]

we dont want forced ads

😭

the game is good as it people can choose wtv ads they want

[mossy nova]

I am not trying to fix roaming here

I am trying to fix spawnlogic

roaming is a critical feature of the comp gameplay

[desert canopy]

Can we just stop arguing for a minute and listen to our hearts

[mossy nova]

That seems like an irrational move

[desert canopy]

Gangy lower your tone gangy

[mossy nova]

Ur addicted to rage baiting?

Very bad ones, 0/10 not even 1 for effort

[desert canopy]

Just because some people are less smart than you doesn’t mean you can call them rage baiters

[civic hedge]

Its all he does in these threads

[desert canopy]

I’m not but okey

[mossy nova]

What a useless activity

[mossy nova]

@civic hedge What do you think of this thread?

[steep seal]

yeah the peakers

[steep seal]

maybe it can be be brought up again but unfortunately people love the "unfair" over skill

because it's fun

[solemn crystal]

it can be good and cant be good

idk

this will force players to focus on the hardpoints

more than running in the maps as some players do

[steep seal]

I'll say when crispycrust made sandstorm, it was not his intention for people to run around the entire map. Unfortunately with fps based slide hopping that happened, I've heard in the past they wanted grace periods (1 second where you can't kill off spawn). And even @mossy nova suggested that in my dms

[steep seal]

true but 4 holding is still very hard

[gray bridge]

I keep doing crack because I enjoy it ahh argument

[steep seal]

Back in the day we had to count the seconds when we would have to peek out hold slow on sites and if we didn't get the timing right (with 1 movement speed also not 0.97, we'd be cooked) today I only see 1 team doing that which is a team that has only played for 7 years. Counter argument is, those type of teams barely slide hop which take away from movement but they prioritize hardpoint

my grammar was bad in that sentence ignore

i just woke up

i think outside of free-wifi i dont see many teams playing near sites

viewer pov i hate seeing cross map roams, i dont think there should be 5 players in temple when the entire site is empty.

I get it if the site had even 2 people

[echo glade]

Nope that's how the game is for years 💀 game should go from 500 players to 5k not 500 to 50

[steep seal]

default players play on 1 ads

[gray bridge]

You always take the extremes

[mossy nova]

its the best option you have, maybe implemented together with a change in spawns (from static to dynamic) it will help exponentially more than changing the game's objective. now people do rotations to keep in control, if you focus the game on stacking only people will trade endlessly which results in new problem becoming meat grinding on point with zero room for creative plays

[echo glade]

Yea default settings should be set to .5 add

Ads

[steep seal]

It could be done with krunk script also

[mossy nova]

dynamic spawn points?

[echo glade]

Going in greys always goes sideways better to stay fully in black or white

[steep seal]

I dunno if that can be done

[mossy nova]

which part can be done with ks?

[steep seal]

Things such as grace periods

We're looking into other ideas too

[gray bridge]

Dude your opinion doesn’t represent the entire playerbase

Current players will adapt to the change and new players don’t even know that they had the option to change their ads

[steep seal]

It's not even like current players will get worse or not

[mossy nova]

if dynamic spawnpoints dont work, you will have to carefully design more spawnpoints instead of dynamics

[mossy nova]

create "safe but not free" spawn zones

to encourage more neutral rotations

[steep seal]

testing spawns in general is a nightmare, i dunno if dynamic is even possible with krunkscript

but it would fully change the meta

[echo glade]

Default settings are trash coz they are set on 1ads

Forced ads is just bad u can ask leo to make a poll in kb and see the result

[steep seal]

it's also the hard to measure

[echo glade]

💀

[mossy nova]

yes, I tried expiremnting yesterday, but in the editor they dont have the sandstorm map in their quick start menu

[steep seal]

we need devs to be active for the tests and also actual data

[mossy nova]

so I couldn't experiment for the spawn locations

[gray bridge]

Let’s not give someone medicine because it tastes bad

These arguments are so terrible

I just think ur scared of change

[steep seal]

polls aren't good

when people used polls in nack when i was gone they hurt the server

krunker players can take a lot of change

ik gun display is a very weird argument

but when i talked to krunkie for balance changes, he asked me "tell the players to show the guns they are using"

[echo glade]

Well game went to shit coz yendis used to listen to a certain few 💀 clan wars prime example pushed away thousands of people away so they can cater towards top 100-200 dumbasses

So poll is just better

And that's is a fact

[gray bridge]

Holy aura

Tell em queen

[echo glade]

Somehow cw removal was supposed to help the game yet here we are at 500 concurrent 💀 when it was 7-8k

[mossy nova]

😭😭

[gray bridge]

Yeh bro

The 1k good players back then must have loved cw

And the other 6k must’ve loved getting stomped every pub

Def wasn’t cause idk there was a pandemic that player count was up

[mossy nova]

Lol

[gray bridge]

And I’m not saying that the game has lower player count only because there isn’t a pandemic btw

[steep seal]

so u think cw stomping players on default settings is good for the game ??

btw the reason the game had 7-8k was because of covid lol

the reason it has 500

is because of shitty yendis management lol

[echo glade]

Yea thousands of clans which used to get yellow blue pink tags absolutely loved it and enjoyed playing it even the red clan tags
It was just verb and few other dumbasses crying to get it removed coz they didn't want to play it

When nobody forced them to play it in the first place all they had to do was stfu and not play it if they don't want to and game would've been at a better place today

[steep seal]

clan wars took no skill

it's terrible concept

[echo glade]

Even after Covid it was 5k plus

[echo glade]

Shotgun isn't skill either let's remove that too then

[mossy nova]

I only got around 3K tags in 1 week when I had covid in my kpd time

[steep seal]

shotgun is skilled though

[mossy nova]

So cheating defo isn't a problem

[echo glade]

It doesn't matter if it's skilled or not when thousands of people loved playing it and enjoyed the game

[steep seal]

thousands of players didnt like it

only 300 active community people played it

i saw the activity in pubs drop momentarily with cw lol

they would just go to customs

[gray bridge]

i do agree with this

[steep seal]

everybody would be lobby hunting

[echo glade]

And wb the yellow blue purple clans ? They don't exist ?;

[steep seal]

yeah that's cool and all

they can add that concept back in

but it shouldnt be kill based

[echo glade]

That's the core playerbase and they were basically told to fuck off

[steep seal]

they should have better challenges for clan wars

[gray bridge]

fax bro fax bro

[mossy nova]

how is this gonna solve the spawn logic problem?

[echo glade]

Game is going no where as long as everyone's against the absolute core playerbase of the game💀

[gray bridge]

idk devil likes to take tangents

i think it started from how forcing ads was gonna KILL the game

or something

[mossy nova]

solve spawn logic first

then you can complain all you want

[gray bridge]

i think only some spawns need to be tweaked

to stop people from standing still and spraying into a spawn and killing people

[steep seal]

what people do in clanwars is the biggest loser stuff ive seen, just run around stomp people on 30 fps because you'd be scared to play comp against players like 39e, color, and m2ch back in the day

[mossy nova]

yes exactly

[gray bridge]

level req should go up

[steep seal]

if it is for experienced players there should be vc

[mossy nova]

redesign spawn angles, a hybrid approach to spawns withmore static spawning options

[gray bridge]

yea +rep

u get an upvote

👍

[mossy nova]

finally

🥳

[gray bridge]

@steep seal any comment?

and also did you want to address roaming too

[steep seal]

i mean it's good

very tedious though

[gray bridge]

is it

[steep seal]

we're looking at basically 80% perfect spawns i feel like

it's just the 20% makes up a good chunk of the mistakes we see

[gray bridge]

wha

[steep seal]

like

ive played maps

where u can win the site

and people dont spawn on

most maps rn do basic core functions like that

[gray bridge]

no

wait

[steep seal]

im saying if u redesign

u might break that

@hard wadi can attest a bit more than me

it's cat and mouse game

[gray bridge]

hes talking about changing spawns like this so that i cant just stand still and spray into this corner

and kill people

and

[hard wadi]

Change one spawn and two more become problems

There is no winning

[echo glade]

That's happens like once every 20-25 games prolly more

[gray bridge]

the wall behind where those people spawn

[gray bridge]

😭

🔥

[gray bridge]

if that was moved backwards

surely like

[hard wadi]

Krunker spawn logic is just terrible

Wish we could see how it actually works as map makers to understand best placement

theories but no fact

[gray bridge]

anything on roaming?

[steep seal]

not rlly

@gray bridge

ur points were said earlier and i acknoweldged them

[gray bridge]

bro

when i was talking to flipbait he was saying u guys concluded that roaming wasnt an issue

and i havent read the chats above so i just took his word for it

yea or force higher ads

i think

[gray bridge]

idk this feels like one of those things that is never going to happen

nerfing movement might buff semi even harder than it already is

cause semi already outclasses every other gun

nah im just saying nerf semi too

[mossy nova]

@hard wadi what have you tried and what haven't you tried

Concerning spawn logic

And are there any theories

[hard wadi]

whatever u can think i have mostly likely tried:

• completely hidden spawns
• 4 corner spawns
• wide open spawns
• minimal spawns
• extra spawns
• doubled up spawns
• pocket spawn areas

[mossy nova]

Is this for specific maps?

[hard wadi]

Basic theories are that spawns don’t really care about distance, more about direct line of sight

[mossy nova]

Or only and

[hard wadi]

Nope all maps

All maps have used those types of spawns one way or another

[mossy nova]

Would you have examples of the things you tried, for example 4 corner spawns

[mossy nova]

As in: screenshots with map overview

[hard wadi]

Bureau

Cubby on sand yes, I’d also consider Pillar on UG a Psuedo-Pocket spawn

[mossy nova]

Only bureau? Or other maps aswell

[mossy nova]

I can agree with this

But not prove it

I know site probably has the most problems with this type of spawning logic

[hard wadi]

Completely hidden: Gate Spawns, Hut Spawns,
4 corners: Bureau
Wide Open: Pillar on UG, Industry 1st site
Minimal: Bureau (this one is kinda tough because game needs 8 spawns minimum but it’s more of only having one direct spawn per site
Extra Spawns: all maps do this, essentially fake spawns in the middle of the map that almost never get used, like sandstorms ACTUAL market spawn or ug 2nd site spawn
Doubled up: sandstorm having a tree and site spawn, UG having hut and pillar, Lush having 3rd site spawn and a spawn under the scaffolding, doubling up is essentially to try and force one specially to avoid bad interactions
Pocket spawns: cubby on sand, kind-of pillar UG, in a way the first second site spawn on bureau is a pocket as well

Bad because when all spawns are out of POV of player it makes spawn camping really easy

it’s like how players abuse the second site spawn on sand because they’re never in POV until you jump out with ur knife and get #fucked

[hard wadi]

In addition to four corners, sandstorm is essentially a 4 corners map

Undergrowth isn’t though

[mossy nova]

Well then the issue is even more clearly a spanwlogic issue and this wouldn't require us to add more points gain per member of your team that is on site

[echo glade]

150 capped speed instead of forced ads

ez

[hard wadi]

It always has been

[mossy nova]

Then we don't need to implement this change of how hardpoint works

Since the issue is the spawnlogic, not in the way obj is given to teams

[echo glade]

old oasis had a hut spawn even that got camped hard

[hard wadi]

This isn’t that the practices are good or bad, it’s just that they get implemented

some are better than orhers

[mossy nova]

@devs fix spawnlogic, look through the codebase and change the way spawning is approached by the game

[hard wadi]

And u can do a bad hut on many maps

[echo glade]

spawn trapping will forever be a thing coz its fun to farm every single lobby to its maximimum potential

[mossy nova]

Everyone needs this as focus, not hardpoint changes

[echo glade]

thats the hard part

coz sidneys code is soo dogshit

[mossy nova]

Yea no shit

[echo glade]

they would prolly just have to make a fully new system than tinkering with sidneys system

[mossy nova]

But step by step everything can be solved, break down the problem in little problems and every little problem then is easier to fix than just 1 big problem in one go

[echo glade]

true

[mossy nova]

Just approach it step by step

[echo glade]

yea

no point targetting a specific group of people instead just do smth that either affects everyone or noone

[mossy nova]

^^^^

Literally the point im tryna make

This whole suggestion doesn't target spawn logic (which is the issue) it rather gives newer players an advantage in the hardpoint game mode

Idk why we are trying to give newer players more advantage? Why are we lowering the skill gap? Its called ranked for a reason, its competitive by nature and it should not be the other way around

[echo glade]

especially when we alrdy have multiple people on master rank who bot frag every single game and go quad negative everytime

just coz they stack

[mossy nova]

Devs listening to this?

[echo glade]

idk if this is gonna be fixed for next season

so no clue

[mossy nova]

Its a big issue

[echo glade]

like u can carry the entire team and lose 30 elo meanwhile ur npc teammate loses 10 elo coz all he did was sit in a corner on site and nothing else

[mossy nova]

I'd understand it if it were not changed within a few months, but let us know you are looking into it, we as a community will be more happy when you say its gonna take a long time to change rather than no communication at all about it

[echo glade]

this guy is no 4 in asia

on 3.8k elo

💀

[mossy nova]

Yea he's probably not gonna perform well when it comes to an actual pug

[echo glade]

yea

he will go quad negative even in a t3 game

he literally went 1/16 in my game and lost less elo than me

😭

another example

[mossy nova]

Summary for devs: change spawn logic (internally in game code), let us know if you are looking into it, we are more happy this way than when you change the way ranked works, bonus that if you fix spawns you also stop spawnkilling and tdm'ng for a big part

[echo glade]

yea

and also fixing this obj based bullshit

[mossy nova]

Wdym

[echo glade]

elo gains / loses are fully obj based

[mossy nova]

Lmao

[echo glade]

all u have to do is get 1k obj every game and u are guaranteed master

[mossy nova]

Lmao

[echo glade]

coz getting more obj will make you lose the least elo possible which is 10
and when u win u get more elo

💀

[mossy nova]

I think that maybe is another issue, but not related to spawnlogic

[echo glade]

yea

[echo glade]

that issue is the reason this has soo many downvotes coz this will just make that issue even worse and fix nothing

[wary panther]

Bro

This is not true

It’s just matches

Obj doesn’t factor in nearly as much

[mossy nova]

Yall deviating

[echo glade]

nope no of matches doesnt make u lose only 10 obj

having alot of obj does

[wary panther]

thats not true

at all

[echo glade]

so how does qb get only -10 when he goes quad negative with 1k obj

[wary panther]

because of his matches

wait ill make a recording and send it to you in dm

wait

[echo glade]

surely

💀

[wary panther]

just wait

[echo glade]

just watch weeti's stream

every game he stackes he gets more obj

when he stacks less he gets less

[wary panther]

ok i lowkey cant record but i can send screenshots i gues

-10 to -15 per loss now

[echo glade]

100obj 600obj and 1k obj games

[wary panther]

?

i dont see what this is proving

he lost -13 elo

then -13 then -10

if you're talking about that -3 elo then yes you can have it

but the fact that he's losing -13 vs. -40 is only because of his matches played

[echo glade]

did glen confirm that

[wary panther]

glen doesnt respond to shit

we can see trends though and make do with what we have

[echo glade]

-30 -25 -34

[wary panther]

brother

im talking about ranked matches not total

LMAO?

[echo glade]

yea this season

well i cant check agar's this seasons matches but its defo high as usual

[wary panther]

all of his losses are on EU so let me check his eu stats

[wary panther]

he only has 40 right now

judging by the fact he was silver 2 when that screenshot was taken id say he had maybe 20 less

so 20 matches played in the season, hes losing much more

compare that to at the end of season when he's master/diamond with 300 matches played, losing -10. clear statistical trend

[echo glade]

if its on matches played then its even more shit

💀

[wary panther]

ive been saying that bro

shits so ass

i would be happy if it was obj but its just not

[echo glade]

like it couldve literally been targetted towards agario

as bro did spend a bunch of money

[wary panther]

😭

maybe

wouldnt put it past them

[lofty wraith]

Honestly its not the spawns its map size, depending on how fast ur going you can reach another persons spawn or be able to intercept them in like 3 seconds which isnt even spawn logic because you can get anywhere on the map that fast

[wary panther]

obviously

but some people still dont believe it

[steep seal]

We will be testing this change in comp testing on Sunday at 2:30 pm EST

In the private comp testing discord

If there is anybody interested that is not in the discord, I can allow temporary visits for just the test. I'm open to anybody, just don't be obnoxious.

React to this message if you are interested, and I will send you an invite to the server.

[wary panther]

holy shoutover @ li over

thats crazy

[echo glade]

Surely this doesn't get into the game with 14/23

[marsh sinew]

No one is signing up

[mossy nova]

How can we even take these guys serious

I have done a research based on principles of finding the root cause, and yet you still choose (while there's no substantial playerbase to support this) to implement this change? How exactly is this even a feedback thread anymore? We are better off not sending anything at this point since clearly you guys dont even take it into account

[steep seal]

It’s not being implemented

It’s being tested

On krunkscript

Because someone offered to

Btw if the vote was 100-109, it’s still the same

You still don’t forget 30-40%

most the down votes wanted to see the test at least

[steep seal]

Dw bro you’re not invited

[mossy nova]

But this test does not focus on fixing the root cause

[marsh sinew]

ik

[steep seal]

u can say research and all that but u just wrote a couple paragraphs

the root cause cannot be solved with krunk script

and idk maybe @hard wadi u have to explain for the 10th time

[wary panther]

What you know about rolling down in the deep

🥶

[steep seal]

dont make me ban u ....

[wary panther]

Why would I be banned

Sowwy

[steep seal]

[ornate egret]

i didnt understand anything

bruh

[mossy nova]

So you are saying that what I wrote is false?

[steep seal]

it's not research, research contains statistical trials, qualitative/quantitative data, etc

It's more of an opinion but it's well thought out

if u want to optimize spawns this week when you're free we can test that too

but those ideas have been tested before

I think with the hp change, in this play maybe 2 players on free wifi benefit from playing backsite since they can get on site quicker. Industry is a terrible example because it is very biased imo. https://www.twitch.tv/krunkerna/clip/CrunchySincereLocustShadyLulu-VmmaYsAe--4TSn9M?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time

Either way casters are completely loss and we get yet another empty site

What free wifi did is smart because they have the small lead and by taking pushouts they prevent team s from even getting near site

it's impressive because they had players on 1 hp and they did these push-outs and won

[mossy nova]

How do you expect me to gather data😂😂

Im not allowed access to data

Pretty weak argument

[mossy nova]

Ur lowering the skill gap only by doing this

[sonic finch]

^^

[sonic finch]

by the time the fight started they were both 80%+ hp 🤓

[steep seal]

yeah sydex pushed out early

because he knew that

the fight starts

when he fought

mb

[steep seal]

i dont have data either

[steep seal]

the only difference in that fight is 2 players go backsite

instead of running all the way down ramp

with the new change

I've never seen this much push back from a potential test 😂 I'll be very honest. The culture of trying new things has still not fostered yet

@mossy nova when u cook up something with spawns or have a framework (to execute and work with a mapmaker) we will test it

The priority is all the same at the end of the day

[sonic finch]

no one said nothing about not wanting to play test?

we’re just saying our opinions of ur original question

like u asked

[steep seal]

the general rhetoric ive been getting in this chat at least with flipbait is that im blatantly ignoring him and should just not test

[keen sedge]

I think it will make the viewing experience more enjoyable if less people are tdming so it’s at least worth testing

Still I think having 1 person offsite is the most exciting to watch

[desert canopy]

Pizza might be the first guy who did his research from the guys writing on this topic here

Cause I see a lot of people arguing but nobody articulates solid facts

[sonic finch]

ok ur ragebaiting

[desert canopy]

I can’t even say anything cause everybody says I rage bait

[sonic finch]

ur saying he’s the first guy who did his research when i’ve played the game more then he’s ever seen it and same with most of the people here

everyone has done their “research”

[desert canopy]

You don’t know that

I’ve been seeing pizza grind crazy amount and I’m from season 1 of the game

[civic hedge]

The only thing he does in these threads is ragebait lmao better off just ignoring him, he never has anything meaningful to say

Sad that somebody makes ragebaiting their entire persona

[mossy nova]

I've got some news then

Bcs there are people out there that do this continuously in the comp com

[mossy nova]

Apparently im not allowed more than 10 lines in this server so I'll have to recopy shit

Not blatantly ignoring me, but rather ignoring the rational thought process ive been telling you. You said yourself the issue is spawnlogic. Well spawnkilling isn't caused by point values. Its caused by map flow and spawn logic. Spawnkilling happens bcs the spawns are;

• spawns are too predictable
  -spawn control allows the enemy to have more power over the rotation and pace of the game.
  Changing how many points you can get WILL NOT prevent people from spawnkilling, if anything it may even give more incentive to spawnkill since control early of point witha few players while 1 is spawnkilling gives incredible advantage in this new system.
  Now onto the tdm'ing;
  People do it bcs it:
  -feels good
  -is easier than defending the point
  -is less chaotic than fighting on point
  Players don't mentally calculate scores, 95% will follow their ego anyways.

To go on with the behavior of players, its not that if you increase the incentive -> behavior change. Since most if not all people will follow their instincts instead of thinking logically. That's how humans work, they will follow instinct rather than incentive. You can't change that and I can't. So changing a hardpoint value does not fix spawnkilling/tdm'ing while that's effectively what you are trying to achieve

@steep seal

And while I also don't know how to change spawns in a way that spawnkilling isn't happening. I do know what I wrote is logically correct since the incentive of a human doesn't change if you change hardpoint values. And I also do not know a better map structure, since I'm not active in krunker or mapping, but I do know the problem that is causing it

So yes, I think my pushback is rather logically formulated

Instead of the way you think, that people will automatically change their behaviour

And the only data I have is that everytime I look in kpc, or kb the number of members has dropped week over week

[steep seal]

The advantage would be less 1.77x vs 1.33x

You said basically everything people already know and understand

I can make a suggestion saying “improve spawn logic” and the devs will be like “how”

[ornate egret]

spawns are good

pls dont fix

[mossy nova]

dynamic spawns, more spawns, redesign maps to give more of an advantage to players that spawn. grace period when you first spawn in for x amount of time. may only work if you give a hybrid approach to this (combine all these solutions)

here you go

ideas enough