🔮cn-gameplay-discussion

[rancid plank]

Do you have SSS Sonq and 4* Kiaelf/bunny/elysia?

Luna weapon is probably going to be very helpful but if you have PS you can probably cope some of it in RL, 10 atk always good too

From a meta perspective that’s way more valuable than a skin so only you can decide how much you care about it

[bitter urchin]

Elf i have songque s and chenxue s

[bitter urchin]

Yeah cause the last time i got a weapon which was seele’s i barely use it now so i feel like its a bit of a waste

[rancid plank]

SS Sonque is helpful for World Star and plausibly better than elf frags, especially if you don’t have any already. You could also consider Lamp or JDS stamps but probably neither is worth it unless you don’t have HLE?

In which case you could justify jds more easily

[copper shale]

elf is dead

[fervent hinge]

Finally no more ELF shenanigans

[copper shale]

jds stamps unless ur alr s2 cuz s2 to ss is kinda nice

s2 is meme tho

but that is if they even run phys alien guard

[smoky lintel]

Yeah SS sonk aop for the general Ari regen seems nice tbh

Allows some shit for ele teams that need 2 SO

[rain isle]

I'll probably get them stamps since I don't have que aop

[smoky lintel]

Well ofc it's still limited to domain reso but it's not like the tag is super rare

[copper shale]

that makes que better no, also u can think of it as the same deal as elf frags, kiana frags was availiable for a long time, it was worth to spent multiple spending events to get kiana to higher rank

songque op in this one prob means next one also has her

aop prob lives lot longer than the valk stamps ur getting

[fervent hinge]

Hopefully, we can't really bank on it they might be evil and do sera next so you have to wait like 2 years to get SS Sonkop

[gleaming imp]

I can see Sera within 1-2 big spending event patches

Though personally if I were to get a aop to next rank via spending event It would be cx for my trio and vita

[main goblet]

is it actually good? mine is s2 alr
but like the only uses i have for jds rn is a throwaway third slot for a MA team
im thinking about s sq aop and 4ing my 3 kia elf if i use all of my funds
or one of the two if i don't have to spend all of my savings

[fervent hinge]

Patches so far apart now it makes it hard to get anything this way

[copper shale]

its a noticeable upgrade if phys alien rerusn

but ur prob more gated by not having ss sera

[main goblet]

mhm...

yeah ranking kiaelf and/or getting s sq aop is better for me

[copper shale]

i would probs get the stamps via bp

and spending get aop

[main goblet]

thinking about sq letting my rita get surplus faster

[main goblet]

ic but im f2p so i can't
maybe spending shop when its there
for now im skipping sena stamps from the shop

[copper shale]

i mean for u its easy cuz u have like no aops

so songque aop is clear winner here

[main goblet]

i mean supply shop oops

i skipped thel stamps in favour of kia elf frags and i don't have a problem rn but i do wanna get her s2 down the line

[rain isle]

:o

[craggy sentinel]

oh supply shop doesnt change right stea

oop yea no changes

[ripe urchin]

i kinda wonder if i should try to get hotr from the spending event for more crystals but they will probably give her away for free

[drifting fulcrum]

Haiiii, anybody know which banner is next after miss espionage?

[desert lily]

PS Sushang

[drifting fulcrum]

The bleed one right?

[desert lily]

Yes

[drifting fulcrum]

Alright, i'm skipping then

[desert lily]

[drifting fulcrum]

I need flawless benediction to rerun🥹

[desert lily]

It will eventually
Just don't know when

[velvet dune]

It reran a Patch ago so youll prob have to wait quite abit

[glass nacelle]

lol mei super qte is 3rd combo

insta kill bio mob

[craggy sentinel]

lmfao

[prisma tartan]

atleast is non boss

[steep axle]

Did i have to see corabad in this fine rainy night

Also is there a mei + HoRb video yet 😭

I would search on bilibili but i dont even know how to search exact thing

[steep axle]

Wasnt hotr free like last patch

[ripe urchin]

https://tenor.com/view/bronya-think-loading-gif-honkai-impact-gif-26952642

...i forgot

[craggy sentinel]

https://youtu.be/UFpXmmcMEX8?si=_wgs786b3qAF7lj1

[main goblet]

nah don't bother, any valk that isn't in WT yet that is in the selection is definitely being added to WT soon
plus she's alr in dorm and reserve so her time is up

[steep axle]

144p 🤤

[steep axle]

why is cora still there on HoRb team

i hate GoI

[smoky lintel]

because HoRb's impair does esentially nothing because it's the same as the one in XDCs stigs so you prob still want breach, though in RL below any other symbioses support will do fine

just replace what cora does with their respective support rotation for a general idea

ofc this can change with the boss

[steep axle]

i hate GoI
but mei ely badum team tho

[craggy sentinel]

then use that team

i dont think you’re in rl that much

[desert lily]

XDC HLE FWS probably fine in RL anyways too

[craggy sentinel]

definitely fine

unless he’s nirb then he can just run whatever variation of supports and he’ll retain/promo

[desert lily]

I'm likely gonna test between three different ones
XDC HLE FWS
XDC FDD HLE
XDC FDD FWS

[craggy sentinel]

fdd fws wins anyways smh

[desert lily]

[steep axle]

im in agony 2 rn

[craggy sentinel]

then do whatever you want

it literally doesnt matter

[steep axle]

forgot to do abyss last week

[craggy sentinel]

rl and below = do whatever your want with your choice of supports

you are not forced to use fdd and you are not forced to choose specific supports to retain/promo

[steep axle]

i need to get back to rl before that aponia hits

[steep axle]

i havent retained rl a single time since vita release 🥀

[craggy sentinel]

either a hands issue or account issue, could be both considering my time lurking and seeing your convos in #📿gacha-salt🧂

[steep axle]

what can i say im a gacha salt resident

i got more luck on getting competitive brackets than getting any valk

[craggy sentinel]

eu rl and competitive

i think you just got slapped because you dont know how to rotate

[rain isle]

It has indeed become more competitive since p2 release

[desert lily]

Glblul RL and competitive kek

[craggy sentinel]

not so competitive that you cant retain it lmao

[rain isle]

Even in EU. No sweatfest tho

Well ye

[craggy sentinel]

i’ve been doing 1 run and just t1 in rl

[rain isle]

I think you're getting slack brackets ngl

[craggy sentinel]

the amount of players that knows how to play and actually rotate in rl is sad

[rain isle]

It ain't that easy on my end XD

[craggy sentinel]

nope

they’re decent, just not good

[rain isle]

Oeuf

[desert lily]

[little bronze]

two questions
is it more important to get sonque aop or songque valk if i have her weapon but not her
when will the valk after mei be announced

[solar surge]

well, the aop can't equip a weapon, so...

[craggy sentinel]

not like songque the valk is actually relevant

[craggy sentinel]

aop if you dont really have anyone aside from ds and the elfs

[solar surge]

Yeah, sadly.
...still not sure if her new hat is a seashell or an upside down ice-cream cone.

[craggy sentinel]

im like 99% sure its an icecream cone

lemme see

[craggy sentinel]

its an ice cream cone

[solar surge]

for reference, this kind of shell 🐚 , not the clam style

[craggy sentinel]

yeah it doesnt look like that tho

[solar surge]

ah, fair. Thanks for taking a look!

[craggy sentinel]

its shaped like an ice cream cone and it has that waffle pattern

[solar surge]

[little bronze]

I do have ss chenxue. does that change things?

[craggy sentinel]

tbh the spending event is kinda mid, do consult other profs tho

[glass nacelle]

Ur mid

Look like event doesn't show playable character

Have to wait main story

[copper shale]

if i was u i get valk over aop, how did u get her weap in the first place

normally its stamp vs aop

but valk is different than stamp

[solar surge]

don't people still mostly use Dreamsicle AOP, anyway?
I have Sonngque, Teri, and Chenxue AOP, and only sometimes remember "oh yeah, I need Teri to have my double Kiana/ Sushang QTE barrage"

[copper shale]

who is people

i have never used dreamseeker

[solar surge]

me neither, but I'm not much of a people-person

[untold tree]

i use dreamseeker a little more than half the time cause i dont have chenxue

i imagine people who dont have teri or chenxue use dreamseeker always

[still vine]

i use chenxue on everything since i randomly decided to get her a while back and i don't care enough to play story to get the memeseeker ranks anyway

[copper shale]

im saying to define "people" first before saying stuff like this

theres nobody in nirb here that uses ds

[untold tree]

there has to still be f2p in nirv i refuse to believe there arent

no way theyre all super lucky

[copper shale]

u can be f2p but still have aop

[untold tree]

both tho and also the roster necessary to retain nirv? that requires pretty good luck

[copper shale]

its just planning, they could either be sandbagging or be sneaking myraid

[untold tree]

idk sounds improbable to me that all nirv players have both relevant aops...

[copper shale]

but why u do assume all nirv have to f2p

[untold tree]

im not...? but nirv isnt THAT small

[copper shale]

just play on a somewhat competitive server and they all whels

[untold tree]

i mean ig it also depends your definition of nirv..? cause i'm counting those people who spend like 50% of their time in nirv and the rest of their time fighting to get back into it after a shitty cycle

[copper shale]

bouncing vs retain nirv is completely different

[untold tree]

no not bouncing bouncing is 33%

[copper shale]

no thats just bouncing

bro ur making up shit

no one ever said 50% = retain

and bouncing is 33%

[untold tree]

bouncing definitely starts at 33% tho

[copper shale]

?

[untold tree]

you lose 200 on a demote right? and you get 100 per rl win

so its 33% to be consistently bouncing

thats just how math

[copper shale]

bro it doesnt matter how often you get to nirv, if u cant manage to stay in nirv all the time, im calling u bounce

[untold tree]

unless they changed the numbers

[slate elm]

i don't think we need any hard definitions for this. An account doesn't stay truly consistent relatively to all this in the long term

bouncing is simply just going between RL and Nirvana. There can be variations to this

[untold tree]

ok well thats why im saying depends how you define it lmao cause i define it as if you stay there more than half the time you're a nirv level of player

[copper shale]

nirv is not level of skill

abyss tiers dont necessariyl mean ur playing really well or bad

[untold tree]

... i mean you can't get to nirv by being absolute shit....

theres megawhels in rl all the time

[slate elm]

yeah but you also can get to nirv without being crazily good at the game

the other extreme also applies

and there's layers in between

[copper shale]

thers a difference betwen playing bad vs spending 0 time on caring how the game works at all

[untold tree]

its still a level

[slate elm]

cycles aren't the same either

[untold tree]

multiple factors and account states influence it

but its still a level of play... just cause its not 100% skill dependent doesn't mean its not a level of play

[slate elm]

fighting against kalpas or paros is very different in skill/leniency as opposed to raven or something

[untold tree]

and like, thats why i was talking about f2p nirv lol, unless youre saying thats a fucktiny group nowadays

[copper shale]

it is still tiny, it always was, and used to be even harder

[slate elm]

it's tiny but it's valid

DS can be capable in nirvana in some cases but this is a case by case basis and not to be discussed too generally

does the cycle/boss give you enough room to compensate for DS' short comings?

Does it not end mid second outburst to make delaying outburst workable? Does it give you ways to farm/gain more ARI? Does it have less bulk to make damage differences not as significant?

do strats for the fight skip a stellar drain that a DS run can compensate against by performing that stellar drain?

[untold tree]

didn't nirv expand size a bit ago
not that that's done much for the competition in rl which you would think it would have

[copper shale]

?

[slate elm]

that was long ago but yes it added +0 trophy slots

although this isn't always 5 slots. if your bracket is small enough it might just be 6-9th instead

but also consider the decline in the nirvana playerbase in glb servers too

[untold tree]

oh are there less brackets now?

[slate elm]

i don't have any hard data for this but yes it does feel that way

even demoting can give you a myriad placement

[untold tree]

dang... well that would explain it

[slate elm]

anyway we're kind of digressing

how this ties into nirv players using DS is prob more complicated or even not too relevant

and as time goes on, competitive players get more and more opportunities (regardless of efficiency) to get a gacha op too which declines DS uses further

(but # of DS users doesn't correlate to if DS can get capable scores or not)

[untold tree]

oh yeah definitely, as more people pick up aops from random opportunities

but rn ds is definitely still widely used in rl and i just find it weird to say that no one in nirv uses ds

[copper shale]

but why u using rl to talk about nirv

and i already said, it can be server dependent

[untold tree]

cause its the next step up...? bouncers are in rl too so i see them all the time /shrug

[copper shale]

? xd

[slate elm]

anyway i don't know what you really mean and i feel you prob didn't mean nirvana which is what the talk eventually shifted to

even in RL i do see a good amount of gacha ops there for better or for worse (general cost to score efficiency the meta advice is they are not recommended until nirvana. DS is good enough to get retain/promote scores)

[untold tree]

and also the people who stumble those people are the worst its why im super annoyed in rl right now lmao

at least i assume its people stumbling and demoting into the cycles that are bad for me specifically XD

[slate elm]

is it that weird? As you kinda mentioned earlier, people in higher tiers are going to be doing something more "right" than bad. They're more committed to the game in some way.

And nirv is the highest tiers so it's going to at least contain people who are spending and playing meta or nothing too far off from that

[untold tree]

its a bit weird because of my knowledge of my own resource use and the fact that i'm positive theres f2p nirv players

[copper shale]

and you believe ur own knowledge is all encompassing?

[slate elm]

the bulk in nirvana often pushes towards double SO fights too, which validates gacha ops more strongly when the ARI regen is actually used

[untold tree]

like, im not 100% efficient crystal wise obviously but i know what my income and spending is and im struggling to make out where i would have shifted spending from to account for pulling another aop

[slate elm]

we don't need to speak like that lol

it's not like starlit is hard denying everything we say but we do each have our own perspectives on this

and they're not enforcing that perspective atm. I'm actually the one who asked for it

[untold tree]

surely the extra 20 crystals per cycle for retaining nirv over rl doesn't account for THAT much

[slate elm]

f2p people in nirvana is possible but this is going to extend into the bouncing discussion, and also why looking at it with a hard definition of it will be flawed

[slate elm]

keep in mind for glb this may also include myriad crystals too

but yeah still not much in the grand scheme of things

[untold tree]

yeh myriad would explain some of it

[copper shale]

so you believe because you have limited resources, you believe that there must be people in nirvana who also on same the level of resource as you, with no extra income, but ur ignoring how competitive the server is

[untold tree]

esp since i didnt realize the bracket number shrank

[slate elm]

there's so much more i want to say on this but i have three different ways to extend the topic atm lol

[untold tree]

thats literally why i prefaced everything by saying "there has to still be f2p nirv"

because i have a f2p player's resources....

[slate elm]

first of all i know of some people that used to be nirvana regulars that are dropping into RL nowadays in NA. Nirvana playerbase ofc isn't constant and some of this discussion can flip the other way around

[copper shale]

f2p nirv by itself, can be paradoxical

[slate elm]

tbh there's only so much that can be said with f2p

[copper shale]

f2p means nothing about ds as well

[untold tree]

thats the question tho like. i swear there are a non-trivial number of f2p nirv players

[slate elm]

yes i want to get to that later

[untold tree]

so unless youre telling me there ARENT

[slate elm]

about purposely skewing your account towards gacha op to prep for nirv retains

[untold tree]

are you telling me there arent???

[copper shale]

which server u wanna look at, andriod/ios for sure nope

[slate elm]

i rather get away from the f2p label once we reach nirv because at that point it's more about the details than the general idea of it

[copper shale]

even sea i havent seen any body retained with ds, and again ds doesnt mean f2p

you cant tell, ur saying stuff that dont necessarily correlate

[untold tree]

im saying that f2p players are the most likely players to not have one or both of the relevant aops

[slate elm]

f2p already is a wash when luck can be a varying factor. People can wind up with SS Rita in a single ten pull

[untold tree]

because they have the least resources

[slate elm]

let's move away from f2p and be more detailed about what the team can be like

[gleaming imp]

I think f2p can have a aop or two, two maybe a stretch but one is doable

[slate elm]

if we're talking about lower resourced players then they won't afford every new release, prob have DS than a gacha op. I get what you're saying

[untold tree]

oh i guess there's also the other definition thing of "what do you mean by retain"... cause like. you can be a 100% time in nirv player and still get -200 sometimes...

[slate elm]

but alot of f2p advice goes for being balanced to retain RL and maybe bounce

but going balanced with DS op in nirvana isn't a retaining strategy

you can be s0 across the board and still demote in nirv brackets

heck even back in p1 i had full s0 trio and still demoted because i was stuck on klein elf, and trio was just so popular

(also bracket luck is a thing but i won't go into that now)

[copper shale]

damn didnt go for s2 hoo first, 🧱

[untold tree]

bracket luck my beloathed

[slate elm]

my mistake was not going to S2 HoTr :V

[copper shale]

wat u mean not ss alr

[slate elm]

(ok well my bracket luck story is retaining a phys otto cycle with PS dps but this was with fish skip jds)

[slate elm]

if not s2 then ss is also out of the question so yeah lol

[untold tree]

ahhh fish skip... the thing i never had hands for XD not that it was super relevant in rl

[slate elm]

anyway in light of all this, i do tell people that if they're RL stable, they can consider skipping a low prospect release to pick up a gacha op instead. That way, maybe they can retain more specific cycles or even gain trophies on them rather than constantly retaining or demoting

this goes back to what afklord said about planning

it does go against general recommendations for RL retain but this isn't so general anymore

[untold tree]

i do think the dont pull aops thing in rl isn't as good of an advice anymore yeah... at least for teri and chenxue they just make stuff so much comfier and also like. its actually kinda hard these days to find ds refs 😅

[slate elm]

ok no i still stand by the no gacha op suggestion if we're only talking rl

[copper shale]

bro no rl is fine

[slate elm]

look through hieu le's channel

and see the point gain between having a gacha op or not

[copper shale]

people with aops arent even doing better than aops most of the time

[slate elm]

it almost always like 10-30 points. It's not what you need to retain for its cost

[copper shale]

if ur complaining about aops in rl ur playing too bad

[gleaming imp]

Can I 🤓? And point out the current boss in global point diff between chenxue and ds

[copper shale]

no

[slate elm]

what current boss

it's just mobs

[gleaming imp]

Mobs*

[untold tree]

i mean i'm still on my high horse about actually 10-30 points matters in rl these days but people keep trying to convince me that im just on a 1 year plus tear of bad bracket luck

which like. maybe????? but reality for me specifically is that 10-30 points matters

[copper shale]

10-30 points but we are on a different base, ur prob missing more than 100

for you to believe that it mattesr

[slate elm]

the current one is big but also a outlier. This is also HLE dps (i assume we're still talking about hieu le) rather than FWS dps, and the nature of the weather heavily emphasizes some timing that DS naturally falls out of

[untold tree]

if i'm missing more than 100 then literally everyone in my bracket is also missing like 100

[copper shale]

yes and thats nomrla

rl bracket thats normal yes

[untold tree]

because im looking at point differentials between the top scorers and the first -100

[slate elm]

it can. But if we're talking f2p, spending 60-120 rolls for a gacha op for only 30 points is so much worse as opposed to trading that to not miss a weapon so you can actually use a valk in her shill cycle

[untold tree]

which is almost always below 100 points of difference these days and sometimes below 50

the below 50 times are the bad times...

[slate elm]

ofc there can be some gray cases like being able to use lesser valks to still retain in RL. That's a case by case basis there

[copper shale]

you shouldnt care about relative point, you should only care if you're actually playing well enough to what you can get

chances are if u are playing well enough ur not close to demoting

[untold tree]

the relative point is what determines if i can afford not to be busy irl and still stay in rl... cause ive demoted to agony several times this past years cause i was too busy to play abyss on closing day

[slate elm]

i think that's more personal than something to say generally for other people

[untold tree]

i'd like to be able to eat the random -100s that come from life without struggle

[slate elm]

that's up to you then

if you're willing to pay the price for that luxury it's fine and fair

but again not everyone is going to hold that value

and it's simpler to go by what's strictly possible

i'm not saying everyone has to be meta sweaty about this though and i do think everyone is busy in their own way

but each person can decide that level and balance for themselves as long as they have the full info

[untold tree]

i guess my point is that like. rl retain advice is generally presented as "this is a comfortable level of play for most invested players, this is what you should do to maintain a comfortable level of play" and i think that the strict anti-aop recommendation doesn't actually reflect that comfort level

[slate elm]

hm in my mind RL is more like what's realistically possible rather than comfortable

for comfort i do speak of how valid it can be to settle for less such as agony 3

[untold tree]

i guess thats where we differ then

[slate elm]

but again this is a case by case basis

[copper shale]

you cannot say invest/whel more just so you can be bad and retain, no one gives advice like that

[untold tree]

i feel like its pretty commonly presented as a "yeah you can get to this and chill there"

[untold tree]

i meant invested as in like emotionally invested in the game, not invested as in putting money

non-casual

[copper shale]

emotional value has nothing to do with u retaining

[gleaming imp]

I personally think a f2p should strive for rl retain level since it offers the most income comfortably

[slate elm]

everyone is going to have different sentiments

[untold tree]

i feel like you are purposefully misinterpreting my statements

[copper shale]

because you can be emotionally not invested, but still play well, and "chill"

[slate elm]

i think this is very valid to point out though

[untold tree]

i think youre being pedantic on purpose.

[slate elm]

me?

[untold tree]

im talking about the people who try to play the game every abyss cycle and do everythign the game has to offer

[copper shale]

you mean this point?

[untold tree]

no, theafklord

thats investment

not monetary investment but thats still investment

people who aren't casuals

[gleaming imp]

Personally I just take the L and accept the -100 and hope I can +100 on other bosses to make up for the loss -100 since my goal is staying in RL

[slate elm]

i mean sure but also we generally say investment around here in a more tangible manner

emotional investment and sentiment are fair to acknowledge but not as tangible and not something we can standardize

[copper shale]

i still dont see connection between you emotionally invested or not, and linking it with no aop not good enough for rl

[naive briar]

[untold tree]

would you guys be happier if i said regulars??? its the same sentiment im trying to get across

the people who play every day and do everything

time investment

[gleaming imp]

I mean you can just do dailies only and call it a day for like 3 days a week on hi3

That's what I do

[untold tree]

yeah thats the level of player im talking about

[copper shale]

and drya still rl despite all the bricks he do

[untold tree]

thats the type of player who the rl advice seems to be tailored to

[gleaming imp]

I'll have you know I'm playing 4d chess

[untold tree]

like. what else am i supposed to call that type of player

[copper shale]

the people you speak of who only logs in 3 days a week on hi3, still benefits more from the not pulling aop decision

i dont see what you tryna say

its pretty hard for a person who logs in 3 day a week to get aops as well

[gleaming imp]

I find It easy

[untold tree]

what

did drya not mean log on daily to do dailies and only spend more time than that 3 days a week

not log on 3 days a week period

[gleaming imp]

That's what I meant, for 3 days I just log in and do dailies and call it a day, the rest of the week i do the usual abyss, ma, ER, event etc

[slate elm]

anyway in an attempt to bring the topic back a bit

if you're pulling most new valk releases rather than gacha ops, and you're getting close to hieu le's RL DS scores, i really don't think you're going to be worried about losing trophies even with the 30 point deficit

[untold tree]

yeah thats what i thought, im that way too lmao but then it got turned into only logging on 3 days a week and i got confused

[gleaming imp]

Oh, rip your crystal gain

[slate elm]

so the cycles you will lose trophies are those where you skipped a shill valk for and don't have any good enough alternatives (and this gets worse if you pull a gacha op with your limited income and miss out on other new valks)

and also while this current cycle is seeing a massive point difference from the gacha op, it's one of the more notorious cycles to be mindful of. I feel many people are just going to lose points because they don't know how to deal with it well regardless

[copper shale]

i mean like i dont see how i misintrepreted stuff, first it was about f2p and nirv, which f2p itself means nothing, and belonging to nirv or not has so many factors.
then it was about aops for rl, which also makes no sense
then it was about investment to retain, but thats a purely subjective thing, and objectively speaking you retain or not in rl , is just you playing well or not, maybe ur more encouraged to push for the scores, but it doesnt change the objective outcomes

[untold tree]

i dont think we ever talked about investment to retain.......

[slate elm]

this was the emotional investment talk from earlier isn't it?

[untold tree]

not for rl anyways

[copper shale]

but you preceded that with aops in rl

and if not then what are you tryna say at the end

i dont see me misinterpreting, purposefully or not, if we are talking about retaining and abyss brackets

[untold tree]

the emotional investment point was that the "for rl players don't spend anything on aops, only pull valks and their weapons" advice which i find is usually targeted toward players like myself and drya who play the game daily but don't hard mald stuff, which is the type of player i consider the baseline of "invested" in playing the game, at least gameplay-wise

but i think it shouldn't be so hard of a no

[slate elm]

let's loosen the talk a bit. While as much as I would personally encourage skipping Gacha Ops to retain RL

i'm also sure that it's possible to retain RL well enough even if you pull a gacha op

and furthermore drya has proven being able to retain RL a good amount despite pulling asc/adv when it's not being recommended at all

[untold tree]

it should be more like... if you get lucky on something then you can consider spending some funds on aops if you like them, rather than a hard "just save it for next valk"

[gleaming imp]

Trio winning because of rita

More thriving would be more accurate

[slate elm]

i'm going to disagree there. Because in the long run, f2ps can eventually run into skipping something eventually on average luck

so any good luck to mitigate against such cases down the line can arguably be better long term

i'm not going to care if you have a gacha op or not if you don't have any dps options for a particular cycle

teri op certainly didn't save PAWS dps against paros

[copper shale]

its poor advice to pull gachaops to make up for not playing well or wanna be comfy, when you're not pushing the best for everything, because advices are meant with purely competitive mindset by default, unless you explicitly say otherwise, that you have a non-meta oriented goal

[untold tree]

yeah but some valks are just so skippable... i mean if it werent for the fact that i keep failing to do abyss i probably wouldnt be having my agony problems lmao and ive skipped some stuff too

[slate elm]

then sure that can more depend on specific cases

[untold tree]

actually a relatively critical stuff cause i still dont have thelema weapon lmao

altho thats become less relevant as time passes but it was pretty relevant then

[slate elm]

i feel this is the second or third time i'm hearing of an extreme scenario being used to make a point but such cases should be accounted specifically and separately. Otherwise we're trying to talk generally right?

[untold tree]

idk i guess what i want out of my retain is more +100s than the average rl retainer cause i want decent wiggle room for situations of being busy and only remembering abyss after it closes built into my score
but like, thats not that many more +100s than the average rl retainer and having teri aop has made things so much comfier for me that i would actually have skipped having helia entirely to have chenxue tbh (since i didnt get helia weapon anyways, so having that valk wasnt really worth it)

[copper shale]

trsut u can do +100 with ds

[untold tree]

from what i can tell anyways chenxue aop is used often enough that it would make things that much more comfy

[copper shale]

chenxue aop means little in the wrong cycle

[slate elm]

teri is also a weird case since she only needs S compared to other gacha op

but also of what i know, teri op really doesn't get full mileage often especially in RL

[untold tree]

what cycles these days arent teri or chenxue cycles tho

[copper shale]

litrerally the rita cycles this patch

[slate elm]

all the rita ones lol

or the horb ones last patch

we had so much sera rep lately

i do think chenxue op is a bit more valid since GoI is a bit more rigid

[untold tree]

i mean im not advocating people pull sera

[slate elm]

but i'm still not going to say you need CX for RL

[untold tree]

im advocating for if people get lucky on a shill valk and chenxue is up, maybe consider chenxue instead of saving for next patch

[copper shale]

no

for the people u said earlier, who are just rl casuals, thats a no

[untold tree]

does depend on the next patch valk and stuff obviously but like

[slate elm]

i'm not going to advocate that generally but there can be times where people tell me what they specifically want that i can consider it more

[rancid plank]

You can definitely +100 NA with no op

[untold tree]

i think its reasonable to say that especially if youre going into a skip patch

[copper shale]

no u dont understand why its a skip

[slate elm]

we got afew people coming in where they want to go all in on Mei, so i can raise CX

but this goes more to sentimental investment than actual objective point value

[rancid plank]

I’ve been bouncing in and out of Nirvana all patch with flat S0 dreamseeker and a lot of missing attack

[copper shale]

"skip patch" incoming doesnt mean, ignore next patch and waste ur crystals on aops

[rancid plank]

Chenxue doesn’t help if you don’t know how to play

[copper shale]

if you wasted ur crystals, then on the patch after skip, ur even more screwed

the reason why its a "skip", its because you alr struggling in crystals, and the patch after they cant get all

[untold tree]

no?

[rancid plank]

Skip patches are for people who are low on crystals and have established accounts; they have to skip something and skip patches are the least bad targets

Not because you want to skip a new release

It’s essentially damage control

You identify that you’re low enough on crystals you’re gonna miss something in the next few patches

And then proactively do it on something less painful to miss out on

[slate elm]

some people go around saying "lantern is bad, sparkle is bad" but strictly speaking that wouldn't be true. You would still be screwed on shadow star tank or fire kosma. They're still good, but not as good or widely useful as others.

so a "skip patch" is still suffering but not as much as other patches

[copper shale]

and when you're skipping = hoarding, means ur alr low on crystals, you proceed to then pull aops, great.

[untold tree]

if patch 1 is a patch you pull and patch 2 is a patch you plan to skip its cause youre planning on blowing all your savings on patch 1 and then you wont have enough for patch 2 anyways and maybe patch 3 is a major spending event or some shit so you want a big fund for that patch
but if you get patch 1 valk in like 20 pulls then suddenly you have 70 pulls that you WERE planning on spending that you suddenly have extra in your plan, that 70 pulls isnt gonna make you suddenly able to get patch 2 valk and also all the stuff you want in patch 3
and yeah sure you could potentially save it for patch 4 in the future but like. why not spend it now for an aop so your life is comfier for half a year

[slate elm]

not everyone values that comfort

[untold tree]

because 3 patches IS now half a year

[rancid plank]

Well if you don’t spend you will have to skip fewer patches in the future

[copper shale]

^

[slate elm]

so some may value that patch 4

esp if it means they can actually compete

[untold tree]

some may value that but some may also want to just have the half a year of comfort

[slate elm]

i'm going to controversially say there's no right or wrong there. It depends on how aware you are and what you want

[copper shale]

the comfort you value carries more sentimental values, as repeteadly stated before, and thats a non-meta oriented goal

[slate elm]

but objectively point wise speaking, prepping for that patch 4 would be better for that sort of goal

[untold tree]

so the suggestion should not always be "save", it should be "you can just save BUT there is also another option to make your immediate future comfy if you want that"

[copper shale]

no

[slate elm]

if the person i'm helping expresses to me they want that, and don't mind the pitfall later, then it's fine. yes

[untold tree]

this should be information that is offered to everyone in this situation is what im saying

like. it shouldn't be a wait for them to bring it up thing? it should just be available

again obviously this is only in situations of "so you got lucky now what"

[copper shale]

well obvioiusly if i pull and not save, then im going to be better off than those who dont pull right now regardless

[untold tree]

if youre not lucky then dont

[slate elm]

now we need to talk about what comfy really means because the idea of it isn't universal either

[untold tree]

which is already kind of a rare situation

so why not offer that option in the rare situations

[gleaming imp]

I personally think comfy means having a account that can retain rl/stay in it majority of the time for a long time

[untold tree]

i mean it immediately makes it so you can follow more refs which i think is a big comfiness boost, one of my main frustrations is that finding refs is actually really annoying these days... theres only like 1 or 2 people who post ds refs that i know of and often theres something there that doesnt work for me so i actually have to run multiple times to figure out what changes i can make

[slate elm]

we already said a gacha op can give roughly 30 points in rl in absolute ideal terms so maybe the luxury is having that higher point final to outclass other high scores without needing to mald for single digit points

but not everyone minds resetting abyss or following a ref to get a mostly strong enough score either. It's not like this always requires 6 hours or anything

you also raised the idea of having a busy life, so the gacha op can compensate for bad playing

but also keep in mind what QT said earlier. A gacha op can also serve effectively nothing if you don't know how they benefit.

[untold tree]

i think not having to mald for single digit points is a given in comfiness...

[copper shale]

following ref and not following ref = comfortness boost? thats not a reason to pull aops

[slate elm]

again it's not like you always need ot do that to begin with, esp in RL

[untold tree]

happens to me way more than it should

[copper shale]

now im going to say something that blows ur mind, but what if ur original score wasnt good so to speak

[slate elm]

i won't deny that and i can see why you value it overall, but it's a minority in my eyes. Not saying i neglect it for others but in the case of others there's just greater priorities

[untold tree]

i mean usually its for the +100 spot which ig i dont need need but again i want the buffer for when im busy

[slate elm]

ok well... let's not constantly change goal posts here

although i have seen my fair share of struggling to retain RL at all

[untold tree]

but it is sometimes for the 0 spot

[slate elm]

but for any of these cases, the solution was never to get the gacha op

it's always some huge execution issue or team infrastructure issue

actually most commonly i think it's just not having a valid dps to use

[untold tree]

i don't think ive changed the goalposts...? i stated pretty clearly what my situation is...

[slate elm]

i was talking about RL retain merely

why did it suddenly became +100 RL

[untold tree]

cause you need those +100s for the times you need to -100

everyone needs to -100 some time

[slate elm]

sure but i said this more for skip valk cases

[untold tree]

wait are you guys working under the retaining rl = constant +0s premise

[slate elm]

which you're exaggerating the opportunities of with getting a gacha op

no

i think you can +100 just fine with just DS

gacha ops can maybe work out a few edge cases i won't deny that

[untold tree]

you can but its a lot comfier with aop

[slate elm]

but not the majority

i feel like your argument would hold more water in nirvana than in RL overall

[gleaming imp]

+100 with DS is definitely doable with a Valk like hoh on her shill in RL that's what I did before I got ss chenxue

[slate elm]

hoh is a bit weird because she's an old valk so her ranks are more in play there

i don't think CX relates to HoHE either

[gleaming imp]

Though I sometimes used my ss teriteri on hoh when the extra initial ar mattered more

[slate elm]

i did have one cycle where i used Teri Op for an HoHE team for hellmaru though

[untold tree]

like... pulling an aop is what, 2/5th of the expected cost of a whole new valk? you can get 2 whole aops plus change for just skipping one valk

its not like not pulling the aop will suddenly get you an entire valk unless youre super lucky

[copper shale]

u don't skip valk to pull aop

skip valk for next coming valk

[slate elm]

it's simplest to see that weapon hard pity and aop hard pity are the same cost

although aop often want to reach ss rank

[copper shale]

^

[untold tree]

and im not advocating for you to? im saying that you'd have to get lucky 2 and a half times to get a whole extra valk out of saving your xtals in a "wow i got lucky!" situation

by expected costs

[copper shale]

being lucky means you avoid skipping valk

[slate elm]

or maybe you can look at is as not skipping a dkey

[copper shale]

not aop

[untold tree]

i mean im basing this off my personal spending which is dkeys are must pulls

ig maybe that's also weird, i dunno

[copper shale]

personal spending doesn't change anything

personal income does

[gleaming imp]

I love dkeys, I find them to be very cheap and affordable and get alot of mileage from them

[untold tree]

im a fiend for collecting shiny things lmao i think the second featured gacha thing i pulled ever in this game was fhd XD which was a WAY worse investment at the time than any dkey these days

[main goblet]

whats this convo about rn

[slate elm]

maybe in some short term and nuanced scenario you can make an argument where a gacha op is more valued than a particular valk whether it's cost or the specific unappealing valk properties, etc

but in the long term and generally speaking across a grander total of a consideration it prob won't pan out that way

[copper shale]

about pulling aops in rl

[main goblet]

hmm

i have beaten every aop haver in rl and i still do today
not bc aops aren't good but bc ppl dont care/dont play well so ds is more than enough for rl
but u can get aop if u wanna get a comfy nirv retain
my last 4 nirv cycles were lucky with me surviving with kia elf and ds but i think thats just bc my brackets didnt play for some reason

[slate elm]

and don't get me wrong i'm not saying to neglect the first half of this. It's something to always keep in mind especially when helping individual people. It's a case by case consideration

[main goblet]

yeah i would rather recommend based on acc situation

[slate elm]

there's a few times where i do tell people, hey having a gacha op means you can run around in the story open worlds with her if you like her alot

[rancid plank]

Bigger than AoP is not having attack tbh missing attack is so painful sometimes

At least with no gacha op you know u can’t follow ref

[slate elm]

there's also a few times where i do validate getting a meta SS op at just S because the person likes them/expressed interest

[copper shale]

if person decided he wont be playing long, then sure, but if he gonna stay playing the game for a extended period of time, never it is better to skip valk for aop

[main goblet]

true but this is less of an issue now since most dkeys are farmable
the only ones ure missing is stellar keys

[slate elm]

meta wise meta wise

[main goblet]

it is time consuming tho

[rancid plank]

Yeah. Plus I have bad impulse control and keep buying things other than dkeys

[slate elm]

i do often remind people when advice given is meta wise and not an absolute rule if i feel it conflicts a bit of what they were initially looking for too

[gleaming imp]

My personal reason for pulling gacha aops for, for teriteri aop was I skipped simp so I felt like I had to make it up to teriteri and because it was teriteri and also a buff for my vita (i got s teriteri in 5 pulls so i decided to go for ss teriteri for that), chenxue because it was a buff for my trio and vita

[slate elm]

i mean strictly speaking mechanically, the fact that teri op and qua teri are both teri are not relevant

but sentimentally i understand otherwise

[copper shale]

and by default advices are meta wise unless they say they wanna do something, but right now its one trying to say something else as meta advise when its not

[main goblet]

i mean u skip most of the stuff so its not surprising tbh

[untold tree]

idk the way i look at it is that like. lots of people skip the same valks right cause of meta and rn f2p rl players can pretty much get all of the big meta relevant valks and skip the patches that are universally agreed to be good skip patches
in situations where you get lucky in the first 30 pulls on a valk its not going to significantly mess up your lockstep with the rest of the crowd on which patches to skip if you pull an aop with the funds you didn't end up spending, you'd have to get lucky 2 times to get enough to pull one of those valks that people agree are the better skip options, which are like 2 times a year at best at this point with the extended patch length, so the option of "have a comfier now" should be explained to people who are in this specific "i got lucky" situation

[slate elm]

for an absolutely new player i do think we need to clarify it's meta advice and why it's important

because alot of new players coming in are more for characters/story than meta

[main goblet]

mhm

[copper shale]

if absolutely new sure

[untold tree]

im basing the pulling power of f2p rl on my own pulling power which i think is fair enough because im actually not 100% rl these days because of aforementioned complete failures to play abyss at all (im losing like at least 1500 crystals a patch cause i keep forgetting)

[gleaming imp]

You should set alarms

[untold tree]

i really should...

[copper shale]

skip is not same, everyone skips different valks depending on their historical state

[untold tree]

you cannot deny that there ARE big skip valks tho

lamp, sparkle, rita

[rancid plank]

Yeah. For instance Rita is only a skip Valkyrie if you have trio, trying to skip with no img team is just hurting yourself

[copper shale]

big skip valks is only big depending on ur acc state

and ur account tier

[main goblet]

its more like lineup of the valk, the valk can be good but the next patch offers something better
even if the valk isnt impactful ull still add shill u have to take the l on or bruteforce
also i dont get the part of getting lucky in 30 pulls and pulling aops
also even if u get lucky and can get something else, there can still be consideration for saving if what is there rn will not be as impactful or next version(s) you have to spend more
but for the sake of rl just having the right team is enough

[copper shale]

he just saying if he get lucky he treats it as bonus crystals that he can dump it on aop, instead of treating it as part of the save up for next valk

[main goblet]

bosses with specific mechanics punish more than adding an extra boost to ur team

[copper shale]

which is not optimal

[slate elm]

idk the way i look at it is that like. lots of people skip the same valks right cause of meta and rn f2p rl players can pretty much get all of the big meta relevant valks and skip the patches that are universally agreed to be good skip patches

i feel the crowd has deviated alot as of late. We haven't had as much clear skips like Lantern or Teri back in the day. Arguably Rita was a skip but the stellar surplus mechanic was also very shiny and new to ignore completely.

in situations where you get lucky in the first 30 pulls on a valk its not going to significantly mess up your lockstep with the rest of the crowd
In a short term, i get the idea of having more to work with if you get lucky relative to the rest to the crowd

however if we're considering it statistically across a large crowd, we're not considering everyone to pull at hard pity either
Also, just because you get good luck now doesn't mean you won't get bad luck later. Statistically for long term your roll results will also pan out towards an average.

[main goblet]

oh okay

oh also ull skip if u cant afford anyways

[copper shale]

what do u have to say to my 114k ss+1 rita

[main goblet]

although i havent pulled aops but i wont consider this unless im sure i can get the aop itself, the pity carry over but i wont just pull any aop and esp when i want ss for nirv, this is irrelevant to rl

[untold tree]

im saying that if you get lucky then the advice should be "ok your options rn are you can save that extra like 60 pulls of xtals for something at least like half a year later or you can use it now to get an aop and have less mald on probably like 40% of bosses for the next like half a year"
rather than the advice being "just save" full stop

[slate elm]

ultimately the advice is conservative and long term. If you can be certain that you'll always get valks+weapon of interest with excess to spare, then sure the remainder can go towards other things like gacha ops, niche valks, for the purposes of competing higher or merely luxury. Whatever you want

The problem is we cannot be sure.

[atomic coral]

imo being able to have more valks for more bosses is comfier than pulling aops

[untold tree]

some people wont care about the less mald sure but i think it should be explained to them
because rn the state of rl is that a 30 point difference can change things

even a 10 point difference can change things

[slate elm]

that can go for any abyss of any tier if it's nuanced enough

but i wouldn't say this is generally the case for RL

[main goblet]

trust me getting an aop for someone who wont mald wont change anything

[copper shale]

30 point difference from where, ofc it can matter, even 1 point can, but between +100, 0, -100 is not 30 point
if you are playing well in the first place

[untold tree]

well yeah but i dont have personal experience with nirv in p2

so i can't speak to it

[main goblet]

bc they wont even care about adjesting their rot to make use of the aop

[untold tree]

and below rl i can't speak to the income being able to facilitate such a decision

[main goblet]

its around few pulls less and aops there is even more useless

[gleaming imp]

Income in RL per patch is huge these days with the long patches of now

[atomic coral]

ds vs s aop is only a 15-20 diff on average in my experience

you shouldn't be seeing aop diffs until nirv

[untold tree]

can follow more refs which automatically means less times restarting the fight imo

[slate elm]

you keep stressing this half a year/multi month/multiple patch thing and i understand it's not appealing to all people but it goes both ways

and the reality is, i had people coming to me before saying they are only looking to play HI3 for a few months and i would adjust such recommendations appropriately

[main goblet]

thats not a problem tho

[slate elm]

but that's a whole different can of worms because it also extends to maybe giving up on meta entirely and focusing more on casually

[main goblet]

ds refs are everywhere

[untold tree]

i literally can never find ds refs that work 😭

[main goblet]

its nirv thats more restrictive based on the refs ranks and aop

[main goblet]

what issues are u facing?

[copper shale]

but u didnt look hard enough or ur just playing bad, because the rl ds refs are fine

[untold tree]

i mean this patch specifically all the ds refs are also rita refs

which, i dont have rita /shrug

[copper shale]

and thats not ds problem

[main goblet]

ok thats not ds issue lolol

[untold tree]

and for some reason trio refs are impossible for me to find idk why

[main goblet]

its u skipping valks

[copper shale]

pulling sss chenxue won't help u with retaining in rita shill

[untold tree]

yeh but lots of people are running trio and yet... no refs

[slate elm]

i will say i did came in 7th in RL for the first lightning marut weather with HoO dps

[main goblet]

where are u looking

[copper shale]

then they are just better players

[untold tree]

sorry by lots of people i mean lots of people who talk in this server

[copper shale]

or they literally got nothing

[main goblet]

bili bili is full of refs and u can follow certain channels on yt

[untold tree]

not lots of people in my bracket

[main goblet]

or even check here

[untold tree]

my brackets are full of rita havers

[rancid plank]

Depends on the S aop S chen isn’t anywhere near that

[slate elm]

having rita doesn't automatically makes their score impassable

there's plenty of bad rita players too

but ofc the higher you go the less this is the case

[untold tree]

oh yeah i should say again im only talking about specifically teri and chenxue rn i dont think the others are worth it lmao

[main goblet]

oh also if u mean trio in rita shill then obv ppl will record their best team
or have heavly ranked trio thats prob in nirv

[slate elm]

it does pain me a bit to see a rita score on a rita cycle drop into demotion range though lol

[copper shale]

you now just completely sidetracked from your original statements about ds not good enough in rl though if you talking about skipping valks

[untold tree]

tbh i find it kinda funny

[atomic coral]

i see sss ritas in rl doing worse than trio

[untold tree]

yeah

[slate elm]

i do think this conversation has shifted topics or subtopics too many times at this point that i've lost alot of focus myself. We did get to explore many avenues though

but anyway maybe we should resituate ourselves

[copper shale]

must be wearing too many layers on their feets

[main goblet]

im not suprised tbh when i see stuff like this bc the bracket by default would have the needed valks and u only have 0 slots untill u demote but i get it

[untold tree]

i. never said ds is not good enough for rl smh

i said that gacha aop makes rl more comfy

[main goblet]

and we told u it wont help

[untold tree]

ds is fine you just have to mald sometimes

[slate elm]

and this comfiness is very arbitrary as we have heavily discussed by now

[copper shale]

u don't need gacha ops for comfy scores

[untold tree]

gacha valk would cut down the malding

which is comfy

er, aop

[slate elm]

but it's a competitive game and most are getting the gacha valk

[copper shale]

bro u not really making sense anymore

[main goblet]

old players undrestand the game more and will mald more
new players are missing too many pieces to go for aop

and are also dealing with atk

[untold tree]

its 3am cut me some slack on using the wrong word smh i feel like youre constantly being pedantic just to be pedantic at me

[atomic coral]

new players need valks first before even thinking about aop

[main goblet]

yeah

[copper shale]

valkless never justifies aops

[slate elm]

look i think i can find your points understandable, but the arbitrary nature of them doesn't stand in hard objective fields of the game. It's not like they're exempted completely from advice and help considerations though but at that point it's a very case by case consideration

[untold tree]

i think it should be considered in more cases

[atomic coral]

there's new players who think aops can be replacements for valks in teams

[main goblet]

mayhaps sleep tbh, u have been yapping on the same thing that have been explained alr, have some rest so u can think about it /gen

[untold tree]

cant havent done my dailies yet

[slate elm]

i feel alot of your drive to make them considered more are skewed by your personal experiences that have highly critical aspects

[gleaming imp]

[copper shale]

they dont stand

so no

case by case is exception alr

[main goblet]

nah esp with f2p income getting aop on top of valks is so much pain

even with long patch

[untold tree]

thats why i specified in luck situations 😭

[copper shale]

no

[main goblet]

and u cant control ur luck

[slate elm]

and again i don't mean to invalidate anything but it's one matter when talking about yourself, and it's another matter of how much of it applies to absolutely everyone else

especially in a general first impression sense

again good luck now doesn't mean no bad luck later

[untold tree]

im not saying its advice for everyone im saying if they get lucky people should be made aware that its not the 100% hardline save situation that everyone in this server touts

[slate elm]

and i give advice conservatively over the long term in mind

[main goblet]

aassumptions mainly assume worse case scenario so that more ppl can relate and the exceptions are better discussed to see what can be done

[copper shale]

but the other option you believe in, is not real

[untold tree]

its 100% real

[main goblet]

its not..

[untold tree]

having teri has made so many fights way easier and i have to spend less time on them

[slate elm]

for you

but not for everyone, and for most people objectively it won't

[untold tree]

i dont see how it wont

[copper shale]

just like how i don't see how its difficult with ds in rl

[untold tree]

did i say it was difficult? no

[slate elm]

the extra shift isn't well mileaged upon. It does more damage but it still costs time. It only comes out to like 10% more overall damage.

[untold tree]

i said teriop makes things easier

[slate elm]

and that's arbitrary

[copper shale]

difficult is relative, gacha op easier = ds harder

[slate elm]

the shift is one big action

[main goblet]

ur senario is that u dont wanna play more and just want direct upgrates tbh
u dont take ur time to play to realize that the extra dmg from a luxury pull can be bypassed by understanding the rot better or experimenting /lh

[slate elm]

and alot of RL fights are actually pretty glassy that whatever benefits teri provides is partially wasted so you're not even getting that full 10%

[untold tree]

harder is not equivalent to difficult
normal is harder than easy

[slate elm]

so relatively vs absolutely

but again that depends on the person

[copper shale]

bro go sleep atp

its too late

[slate elm]

the most i can say here is i do consider it if it's relevant to the individual

or the scenario

[main goblet]

mhm

[untold tree]

i mean. yeah? why is that a problem. if i can spend 30 minutes less to get the same score thats 30 minutes more i can spend doing something else and i am 100% certain im not the only person who wants that???? people have lives

i dont think thats a rare thing to want at all

[slate elm]

and some people can get it in one DS run

don't make it sound like it's always the case with the gacha op for every scenario

[main goblet]

the different btwn a careless run and a good run goes a long way
and it doesnt take time to cut from ur irl duties

at best its few restarts bc u didnt do the first part of something correctly

[slate elm]

tbh if you want to discuss time, the time it takes to explain this arbitrary nature of these considerations to any person is also pretty consuming too

[main goblet]

verses not wanting to care so u pay (with crystals) for a small fix

[slate elm]

i mean i do it because i enjoy yapping the game, but some people asking for help don't want to consider so much and want something more curt

[untold tree]

it definitely does? looking up a useable ref often takes like 15 minutes, and then several restarts to actually get the run down correctly because im not the type of person who can watch a ref once and do it perfectly and i doubt most people are

[slate elm]

do you pause as you go through a ref?

[untold tree]

yeah

but pausing messes up my flow a lot

[slate elm]

some fights i literally just pause and do each action and only do one run overall

actually i did it for this abyss

[untold tree]

so i have to do it several times

[slate elm]

again everyone is different there

[copper shale]

^ just pause at each step its not like genshin or wuwa refs where u can't pause

at most it costs u 3 or 4 points for not being the fastest but u get the rot down correctly and saves restarts

[slate elm]

even in nirv those 3-4 pts aren't always important (although it's more likely they are)

[copper shale]

have u seen my bracket yet

[untold tree]

iunno i end up in less than 10 points making a difference situations way more than i should in rl...

[main goblet]

well most neither, its about how willing will u to do things correctly, at most the things u restart is the start if u did it late or the transition if u messed up
but getting an aop to fix it isnt compensating the issue, its just temporary masking it bc u dont wanna try
obv its skill related and its not an issue if youre generally active to learn these things and try them, but if ull be pissed and leave right away the n thats a different thing
or if u dont care about doing abyss in honkai than anothing game or smth

[untold tree]

which everyone here keeps telling me isnt the norm but that doesnt save me from ending up in those situations

[main goblet]

most ppl i see with issues with score often dont realize the mistakes theyre doing or let it slide or are still clunky at doing things at the right time

[slate elm]

there's one more topic i can bring up for all this. As a helper, it becomes a bit of your own responsibility of what kind of advice you give. Strictly this shouldn't be the case since the person receiving the help should be critical and make their own decisions but that's just not always the case

but advice that could have disastrous consequences down the road shouldn't be given lightly. They must be made clear

[main goblet]

all n all it changes based on how much time and energy u give it (in the long term)

but back to aops, getting them for this is like paying for a solution

[slate elm]

i do factor irl time it takes in alot of advices btw. I do actively tell people to skimp on events if they're low on time and aren't interested in the costume or something

[copper shale]

can just hypothesize where one pulls aop cuz good luck then can't get weap next patch cuz bad luck

[main goblet]

pausing and taking breaks is normal too

[slate elm]

burnout is a very critical factor

---

also breaking through has alot of changes

and i always say the time it takes to adjust to it is valid to consider delaying the breakthrough if they're not ready for it

---

sometimes people come in with a whole list of things they want to get with a budget that doesn't fit safely

[main goblet]

its just based on how ready they are

[slate elm]

and all i can do from there is to prioritize accordingly

so that's one case where what starlit is saying of good luck > excess sparable income comes into play

[main goblet]

for burnout i still do dailies but dont stress it, some ppl prefer taking a break all together
what matters is that u know what youre getting and lossing anyways

[slate elm]

i think the most annoying aspect is if it's a dkey since those go away early and it's a conflict of time and uncertain income

[untold tree]

i mean you'd have to already have been in danger of that to have that happen in the situation im proposing /shrug

[main goblet]

the think is, u cant guess
u can be the luckiest person for 6 patches and it suddenly goes downhill
or be the unluckest person for 6 patches but u lucksack the next version
theres nothing ingame about this either

[somber egret]

I demand more HOHO Cards income

[main goblet]

i demand abyss doing itself

[rancid plank]

Knight bpass 🙂

[somber egret]

Ai-chan can help you
||But pay 3000 Crystals first||

[main goblet]

[untold tree]

thats planning tho? like if you go into a patch with the plan "ok i can spend 130 pulls this patch and then i will go into next patch with approximately 130 pulls" or something like that then your planning is already risking getting super unlucky on weapon on one of the patches
but then you go "oh i only had to spend 70 pulls this patch and now i have 60 spare pulls more than my planned budget" then the option of pulling an aop becomes available because at worst you'll have to cut into 20 pulls of the next patch's income to get weapon, which is a risk you were already having to consider anyways

[main goblet]

either way i see you over estimating how pulling an aop will fix ur time and play issue
i srsly suggest u to go to sleep and think about this convo when youre more awake
and not to treat this game as a job

[untold tree]

sleeping will not make me change my mind on this matter

[main goblet]

it will and either way its good for u

[slate elm]

i think this is stepping the line a bit lol

[untold tree]

i have been fighting people about rl being maldier than people make it out to be for literally the entirety of part 2

[slate elm]

but anyway i think we explored this topic enough and are mostly repeating points now

i'm sorry but i can't agree

[untold tree]

this is just an extension of that stance

[copper shale]

t1 sea rl with ds and -140 atk

[rancid plank]

-140? Crazy

[copper shale]

nooby account and very slack bracket

[slate elm]

i can imagine ways it's been more difficult to you from what you described of yourself

and i do think RL can still be challenging especially to developing players

but i haven't seen enough from others or myself to suggest that RL has been stepping up greatly, much less to validate a gacha op in strict terms. For luxury, that's your own call

and it's fine to disagree. The game is dynamic enough to let all sorts of weird scenarios happen and i can certainly imagine them.

But part of this talk extends to helping a crowd of many others generally.

[untold tree]

i think it IS a generally useful luxury tho, not just something that's only useful for a handful of players

[somber egret]

Here https://space.bilibili.com/23938690
Learn from Senyuuki tutorials they do it in RL with DS and all S-rank

[main goblet]

thats not what u meant tho
yeah u can have a normal plan (but assume worse case if u want to get something) and have a backup for if things go differently
but the effect can be different bc it may not follow the initial plan or the backup plan
and lets say something new pops up then youll be like "damn i wish i kept xyz which would have helped me"

also the plan is also what content ull do to have for future patches, maybe ull have more or less income bc of new events, revisting old stuff or irl stuff like moving out or taking a break

[slate elm]

when that luxury is at the cost of something not for luxury, it's how it becomes controversial

[copper shale]

luxury and mass don't go together

[untold tree]

i disagree with the irl time these things use nowadays

[slate elm]

people asking advice usually aren't at the point of luxury to begin with, and usually are asking for not luxury advice

and we already discussed that

i already brought up all sorts of other ways to account for irl time

[untold tree]

i think it'd be more useful for the general crowd actually given how long stuff lasts now

[slate elm]

i don't care how long it last if it's not making a difference

if it lasts for 3 years but only sees 1 actual important use does that validate it?

[gleaming imp]

RL is very chill these days, though I -100 on paws, hle, ps shill so

[atomic coral]

considering the amount of people who pull aops in rl and still don't have good scores, I don't think it's helping the general crowd

[untold tree]

give me your brackets...

[somber egret]

[slate elm]

anyway unless we have something new to discuss, we can prob wrap it up here

[main goblet]

theres sm to discuss about this, most of the case is that ppl who are still new or dont play that much may see themself in a tier theyre unfamiliar with, like an average ago player that gets pushed to rl
or ppl having more options than b4
or more income than b4
or ppl making their own decisions like pulling for ranks bc they love the valk and u get paired with them (still rare)

thats why its normal to see aops in agony and rl

[main goblet]

yes pls

[frozen cobalt]

so no new valk reveal in event

story valk next patch?

[copper shale]

he's ok but actually ds go to on bilibil is Ruahd (东哥） and 憨憨索拉卡 and 雷电女王的康纳酱

[smoky lintel]

a part of why RL also might feel a bit more maldy is that when gear becomes less of an factor because it's easily accessible other things like atk,affixes, skill may matter a bit more compared to p1, it's really just a shift of what's important. I still think that RL is generally more on the calm side but this is subjective in the end

anyway i'll just stop it here because the wish to stop was already expressed lmao

[untold tree]

yeah we've talked about the why before but it doesn't change that it feels maldier than p1 /shrug
anyways we've talked about this several times before and no one has ever changed anyone else's minds

[copper shale]

p1 was crazy mald what u mean

[untold tree]

less mald to me

[copper shale]

t1 vs t100 is 20 pts diff

[untold tree]

and i was an inconsistent nirv bouncer in p1

what no im talking about rl

idk what myriad was like

[rancid plank]

Hopefully you can promote on flower or tank so you don’t have to go back to A3 this patch

[frozen cobalt]

i litterally skip rita and still in RL this patch

[atomic coral]

when artbooks were on the line in p1, rl actually locked in and were actually malding, i don't see that much mald anymore

[somber egret]

Senyuuki uses their recordings,
He only making it in a step-by-step stuff and further explanations

[copper shale]

oh

[gleaming imp]

I mean it’s possible for flower, I got +100 on img lighting bull with trio with a 740 score

The Rita’s were not ritaing that day

[rancid plank]

[gleaming imp]

Overall rest of 8.6 I stay in RL so I’m happy

[untold tree]

lol who needs rita when you can have your op trio XD

[frozen cobalt]

same

[gleaming imp]

My Trio only does so well because high investment and SS chenxue

[main goblet]

i have an answer to this but as said b4 this convo is too long that we should just move on

[frozen cobalt]

when vol 1 was given i litterally drop to ag3 to clear faster

since i alr got 600d

[rancid plank]

Well rn you’re at 1800 right? And then there’s flux lantern into quantum so that’s gonna be 1600

And then end of patch is dom aponia and sampo

So you’re gonna need to mald for some promos in between

[slate elm]

scores are usually a bit lower than what they should be on the first cycle. Alot of people here didn't realize Rita's eva > weap until later

[main goblet]

the chance i had to get free artbook was lost bc hoyo decided to not give glb anymore </3

[slate elm]

personally i got away with lv 45 stigs on JDS in nirv on the first cycle, but obv it didn't stand well the next time the cycle came back (epernay? iirc)

[untold tree]

... i forgot about the art book mines... ive got story only friends who tried to build back up to agony to get art book and they couldn't do it cause even the lore people were locking in lmao that was such a time

[slate elm]

ah yeah lol

[main goblet]

also esp for rl and below players they cant max stuff day 1

[slate elm]

and then the second vol of the artbook got more people prepping ahead of time

[untold tree]

youve never seen such a competitive agony 1 XD

[main goblet]

and yeah as u said ppl discover tricks later on

[untold tree]

and we never will again

[slate elm]

i want to see a competitive sinful bracket tbh

people figuring out animations rather than damage

[frozen cobalt]

[main goblet]

competitive forb bracket when

4k when

[rancid plank]

Oh heck I’m not gonna be able to max luna stigs day 1 next patch unless I get really lucky in gacha

I was thinking I had plenty of prisms for once but no I need 42

[slate elm]

tickets already accounted for?

[main goblet]

damn

[slate elm]

idk when we get them actually

[untold tree]

spending event them

[gleaming imp]

Aponia is easy retain, and sampo should be a retain as well since my trio has improved since last time he was here so, hopefully at least

[somber egret]

Come here, it's so much fun here

[main goblet]

i mean i think the event gives u some resource day 1

[somber egret]

[rancid plank]

I’m gonna have like 32 prisms going into next patch counting the ticket

It’s dire

[main goblet]

i almost didnt get my hle wp maxed but was saved by event

[slate elm]

ah...

[rancid plank]

I’m gonna have like level 45 luna stigs

Unless I lucksacc stigmas

Or I roll for sync 2 dkey or something

[main goblet]

hmm i mean u can max the one whos boss is first so u have time for the sec valk
also if u have anything u didnt max rn like past events u can do em

[untold tree]

you can do it i pray for your lucksack

[rancid plank]

I have 1 more voyage log to do

So I’ll make sure to finish that

[main goblet]

imagine doube dkey in the same 10 pull

[rancid plank]

Then I’ll roll for sync 3

Idk

[main goblet]

then u get syn 3 in 1 extra pull

[rancid plank]

Mostly I don’t make 10 pulls

In gacha

Waste of crystals

[untold tree]

3 dkey and 7 stigs in a 10x obviously

solves your cube problem too

[copper shale]

i was eva weap seller

[slate elm]

i talked about ss rita in a single ten pull earlier as an extreme but... i've seen 3 people that did it this patch

[main goblet]

but either way i think for now just finish what u didnt and when the patch is up prio mei bc her boss is first then see ur overall pulls bc u might get the prisms u want

[rancid plank]

I wish ai could put carnival tickets into wep banner so I could go for sync 2 FdD wep and get 2 prisms

[main goblet]

u also have the boxes if u get the full set from gacha

[slate elm]

yeah i recall that lol

[untold tree]

i swear there was an old spending even that allowed this am i just hallucinating

[main goblet]

i would be nice tbh
bc theres ppl with wpless valks too

[rancid plank]

Yeah luckily I have plenty of crystals for my pulls it’s just mats that are dire

[main goblet]

yeah its rough when u level every new valk

[rancid plank]

And worse when you backpull

[main goblet]

although the only things im low on are locks, ncc sometimes and metal

[slate elm]

no i'm pretty sure there wasn't

because when i first heard of carnival that was the first thing i wanted to do

[rancid plank]

I’m fine on locks and metal but NCC and prisms are a constant struggle

[main goblet]

thanks for my mostly shit luck i can build a mini house with the prisms i have

[somber egret]

Carnival tickets only goes to Carnival Supply

[slate elm]

back then i was prism starved and thelema/lantern syns actually looked nice for MA

[untold tree]

was it that we got a separate ticket for weapon banner then...? cause i remember planning to pull on a carnival weapon banner with free pulls

[rancid plank]

Can I trade u like 4000 locks for 4 prisms ty

[main goblet]

yesss deal 🤝

[somber egret]

You probably thinking of the old EXPA-FOCA Select, where it uses the same equipment/battlesuit tickets

[untold tree]

ah yeah maybe, it was from a really long time ago

[main goblet]

im sure QT means that the free carnival pulls are for valks only
the carnival weap supply dont count

[slate elm]

the only opportunities i can think of for free p2 gacha weapons are

• mini spending event (no dkey dupe)
• raffle (good luck)
  • can also lead to bp voucher
• free helia weapon when she was snuffed out half a year later lol

[untold tree]

no it was definitely before p2

[slate elm]

oh

hm i don't want to think that far lol

[main goblet]

damn i was coping hard to get smth from raffle
but guess what

rip ipad

[untold tree]

i put everything into the valk+weapon in that raffle i think cause i was thelemaless... alas, no dice

[slate elm]

we did have reruns in p1 back on anni/cny patches but i don't remember what they were called

i'm pretty sure carnival is specifically p2 only

[main goblet]

yeah

carnival is new

[slate elm]

back in p1 it was some banner we can select across 5 options

[main goblet]

idk the p1 stuff tho

[fervent hinge]

Did someone say p1

[main goblet]

firepower supply...?

[fervent hinge]

Yep

[untold tree]

idk the names of banners lmao i just know there was a rotating banner thing during annis we used to get tickets for

[main goblet]

[slate elm]

no it wasn't firepower

[fervent hinge]

EXPA/FOCA Select maybe

[main goblet]

oh yeah i wanted to get weaps from there but i got random stigs that i dont use

[slate elm]

firepower was different

[copper shale]

that was the chance to get dkey

[untold tree]

probably expa select, that sounds familiar

[copper shale]

and xy sword never appeared

[slate elm]

yeah that sounds more right

[fervent hinge]

[untold tree]

xy sword appeared once! thats where i got my xy sword

[main goblet]

they should rename xys to gatekept sword

[copper shale]

ik it was there once but not appearing after is basically like extinct

[untold tree]

do you think they'll do another bp raffle in 8.7... im coping

[slate elm]

around march 2023 for xy sword in fp supply?

apparently i got it then too

[fervent hinge]

I forgot where I got mine probably fp as well

[untold tree]

sounds about right

[frozen cobalt]

the gatekeep 10atk

[slate elm]

that's every new dkey nowadays :V

[main goblet]

oh okay so expa/foca is just a normal rerun but u pick the valk n gear u want from the pool?

[untold tree]

wait no 2022 according to the logs

i searched "xy sword firepower" and thats the earliest people were talking about it lol

[main goblet]

does it also have the thing that if u dont get the s rank valk and gear with what u want then the pity goes bye bye when the whole supply ends?

[fervent hinge]

2 more dkeys and my HoV is 1700 atk

[slate elm]

it might be both

apparently i yapped about missing the first one, and seeing it again and getting it lol

[untold tree]

i remember it only being once tho... idk thats years ago i probably remember wrong XD

xy sword the rarest item in the game at this point

[gleaming imp]

I had to get mine from 8.4 mini spending event

[slate elm]

sept 2022 was when i was regretting not getting it. So some time before that

[somber egret]

generally pity does not carry over to the next supply for p1 equipment supply, so it's a total waste to "try some luck on it, and snipe that 1 stig or a weapon you're missing"

forgot about the battlesuit

[untold tree]

im p sure all banners were technically called expa/foca

expa/foca select was just the rotating one that showed up at annis i think

cause you got to select the rateup out of the 3 possible rateups

[main goblet]

ic

[untold tree]

it was expansion supply and focused supply

[fervent hinge]

Yes

[untold tree]

before they renamed it to the way more sensible battlesuit and equipment supplies

[main goblet]

did it also give u free pulls for the specific supply to intice players to pull more if they dont get the stuff or is that just carnival now

[fervent hinge]

Don't forget expa equipment for the whales

[fervent hinge]

Just carnival does that

[main goblet]

hmm

[untold tree]

p sure they gave tickets for expa/foca select

[fervent hinge]

They weren't locked to it tho

[main goblet]

iinteresting

[fervent hinge]

They just gave out expa foca tickets on annis

[main goblet]

thats better than carnival tbh lol

cuz at least u can use the pulls elsewhere

[fervent hinge]

Eh well now we get both

They shit out free cards, give us discounts on every new release, and still give us even more expa foca supply cards for anni on top of that

[main goblet]

fair

[fervent hinge]

Expa foca was dogshit tho cuz you only had 3 days to pull and the pity reset (for gear) every 3 days p sure it carried over for valk

[main goblet]

tf

[untold tree]

i cannot remember if it carried over to the main valk banner...

[fervent hinge]

Can't really remember

Nobody pulled that shit anyway

[steady grail]

[fervent hinge]

Only stupid people who thought 10k xtals is enough for valk gear

[steady grail]

me so happy the next update will be so kiamei coded

[fervent hinge]

When p1 you needed a minimum of 2 billion crystals to get gear

[steady grail]

am i

am i dreaming?

[main goblet]

im sure that if a played in p1 i would have 2/4 gear on average

[fervent hinge]

Yes go back to sleep

[fervent hinge]

I did lol

[main goblet]

[fervent hinge]

P1 was pretty shit gacha wise

[main goblet]

damn..

[fervent hinge]

F2p were just forced to pull sp valks constantly and ignore everything else

Gear*

[main goblet]

and theres ppl that complained that p2 is worse but thats a topic for another day

[main goblet]

oh..

[untold tree]

yeah you just prayed for early weapon and coped hard lol

[fervent hinge]

Yeah if they got lucky f2p could pull like 1 S rank per year

And cope for gear

[untold tree]

i did! i pulled it for hotr weapon lmao, i checked my records
cause i'd skipped hotr weapon the previous patch so i would have enough funds to hit spending milestones

[main goblet]

[somber egret]

[untold tree]

f2p could get the herrschers and all sp valk gears
source me who got all the herrscher (no weapon tho) and all sp valk gears except for some reason fischl's weapon

[main goblet]

ai chan greedy

[untold tree]

not that fish weapon was super relevant but i came to honkai because i started playing genshin and then saw senti and decided i wanted that
So when genshin collab came around i felt obligated

[main goblet]

thats not good value considering that valks are gear relined tho, but good to know

[untold tree]

also holy shit this guy actually explains everything in detail... 🙏

[untold tree]

not nearly so much in p1

probably due to the fact that it was cost prohibitive to get all the gear in p1, even whales weren't having a good time even if they DID spend to get it XD

[slate elm]

it was pretty viable to use budget gear in p1 to even attain high RL

like using turg or jst on an elemental support instead of the signature

some dps have very specific cases too

like hos could use Sirin T with dirac or shui MB

so cost for specific valks could be cut down that way

[untold tree]

I could achieve nirv like once or twice every patch with my scuffed herrschers and support impact at the end there lol, altho I did get geared trio so that helped a lot

[slate elm]

even HoFi could've dropped B piece for Newt B, or run turg

[untold tree]

The g3 and g4 stigs put in work

[slate elm]

you did need to stick more to the regular rotation for newt b cases ofc

Delta was pretty funny

her signature stigs was pretty much dead on arrival

[untold tree]

The good old days of glut ppm newt

[slate elm]

yeah and hos opted for that as a support too

so hos was very affordable and capable on a budget build in both roles

crazy valk

she had so many other options too

[untold tree]

Such a good investment on her release... She carried me through all of my early game p much

[main goblet]

whats her sig?

[slate elm]

dickens iirc

https://honkaiimpact3.fandom.com/wiki/Dickens

[frozen cobalt]

i used shui for delta

[slate elm]

it was still performing enough but other stuff for specific scenarios can be better (shuijing)

there's other stuff too but idr them too well

BKE stigs, Newt T, idr

[main goblet]

oh lol

i still have a dicken piece that i got somehow and it still got no use
lk i can just use it for reso

[untold tree]

Collection ranks 👍

[main goblet]

lol

[glass nacelle]

Nice cn gameplay

[copper shale]

kek

[feral epoch]

hi

[prisma tartan]

sparkle?

[shrewd socket]

sparxie

[naive briar]

same thing

[slate elm]

https://klipy.com/gifs/spongebob-squarepants-spongebob-meme-1

[desert lily]

[prisma tartan]

wow sparkle got new BS

or form

[naive briar]

thats vtuber sparkle

[willow perch]

Piyo suit when

[shrewd socket]

m i t o s i s

[prisma tartan]

https://tenor.com/view/senadina-sena-honkai-honkai-impact-honkai-impact-3-gif-10672144146216192108

[rain isle]

Sena

[still vine]

[glass nacelle]

[rain isle]

[limpid glacier]

Global beta tommr trust😔

[shrewd socket]

probably next week

it's 2-1 week beta

[desert lily]

Expecting 1 week beta

[limpid glacier]

😞

Sadge

[copper shale]

wat happened to skipping

[obsidian berry]

99% of gamblers...

[muted mauve]

Genuinely unbalanced deck.
Both my wins have been me going from 0 score to win in one turn after setup.

[muted mauve]

Both -> My last 3

Hyperion Deck the only one that is good against trio

[abstract night]

As the person like weeks late

Hows mei as a ws support?

[muted mauve]

waiting for higher quality version

[little bronze]

https://giphy.com/gifs/pot-of-greed-meme-freaky-QZ7k5l1nC1zfumLw8y

[desert lily]

[gleaming imp]

Besties

[little bronze]

I SUMMON POT OF GREED

[clear vigil]

[slate elm]

LV DKey Considerations

Beneficial factors:

• assuming the player picked up the free luna in this patch, i do agree that it's a low cost to get an astral ring unit with newer tags (h.shift and symbiosis) that newer players are especially in need of, such as for Mei dps
• LV as a dps covers Grail ring type, psychic, lightning, bleed damage too. At the very least this dps role can serve in lesser tiers of abyss.
• LV still provides bleed and maybe hitcount utility. Bleed is especially walling of a niche to not cover (vill-v boss).
• it's still +10 atk for the account which is appreciated in the long term for the higher meta

Hesitant factors:

• Added gacha weapons for an existing valkyrie historically do not last as long in the top meta as opposed to a new valk release. This is justified given the lesser cost
• LV being an older valk will have a higher meta standard for her personal ranks. So newer players that eventually reach higher exalted tiers may find her dps scenarios more uphill to contest against
• regarding the +10 atk as a dkey...
  • more casual players may not care about it and have other more immediate priorities for their crystals
  • in the long long long term, we can maybe expect these dkeys to become more available/affordable without crystals
• LV's dkey banner expires sooner than Mei's banner. While a fresh player can theoretically acquire enough crystals for both, this is a huge demand for some people with busier lives or don't want to rush through the story. Needing to have LV from 8.6 rita's patch prevents rerolling for Mei in the later patch as well
• LV as a H.Shift/Symbiosis support does not seem generally good compared to others. She's potent specifically for PS or PAWS dps https://i.imgur.com/ROlyUjU.png https://i.imgur.com/lqJLqXz.png

Overall I do think it's considerable but not an automatic must get (granted I don't really think anything is like this anymore).

[naive nexus]

On this topic Is it worth pulling lunar vows Dkey for the atk over building her? I'd think no but maybe. (This may be the gacha demons speaking)

Oops nvrmnd

lol I need to read the second half

lol

[slate elm]

you're a newer player right?

do you have long term plans for nirvana?

[naive nexus]

Probably not

And yeah I started around a year ago