gtfo-related-questions

[silver fable]

I don't know, it's hard to know entirely what you're going for

[wintry kayak]

I like AR but I think heavy smg feels better

so

I’ll just give it extra range and precision damage

[silver fable]

hah, sure

[wintry kayak]

like a harder AR

[wintry kayak]

heavy smg is pretty easy to balance from what i’ve felt so far

specials is gonna be more trouble btw

I’m gonna ban HEL rifle and gun

[silver fable]

I think of specials in roughly three categories

[junior moon]

sooo, i havent played in over a year. anything major i should now about between now and then?

[silver fable]

category A: hel gun, veruta, arbalist, har, revolver, precision rifle, high cal
category B: choke shotty, sniper
category C: pump shotgun
ambiguous: combat shotgun, hel rifle, burst cannon, scattergun

[modern ibex]

Yeah that is a fantastic idea, since I love going in blind and dont' want to spoil myself

[silver fable]

A is waveclear (loosely uptime-range)
B is ranged damge, high value target killers (range-damage)
C is high-uptime damage, sacrificing range (uptime-damage)

combat shotgun is somewhere between A and C
hel rifle somewhere between A and B
burst cannon used to be in C but lacks the performance into waves post-nerf
scattergun when told "take two of uptime, range, damage" said "I'll take damage and damage"

[modern ibex]

Hm, what would you guys recommend as a special into R3A1 if one was to try and complete the final obj solo?

[upper ginkgo]

pump shotty, combat shotty, revolver

[silver fable]

can't go wrong with a pump shotty imo

[modern ibex]

I've been bringing the Arbalist V but I think the spooling up is going to really hurt trying to trudge the Neonate back to spawn

Damn really? No mid/long range? I guess you don't need it there tbf

Oh wait you're just recommending specials, I'm dumb

[upper ginkgo]

not really, the hardest part is probably the class iv and the burst sentry should do most of the work anyways

you can get away with anything tbh, the mentioned weapons are just the more effective ones

[silver fable]

anyway my recommendation would be to pick at least one gun from each category I outlined
2 from A, 1 from B, and 1 from C would make sense for example

[modern ibex]

Cool, I'll try the pump shotty rather than the Arbalist in the special slot, and I'll try to not blow myself up with a tripmine right at the start either 😎

[mossy aurora]

Is r3a1 the one with hybrids at the end

Then yeah I also would recommend pump shotgun

[silver fable]

arbalist can be fine, it's waveclear-oriented but both mg's get a lot of damage in the current balance so they're quite decent at downing bigs too

though as you mentioned, there is a bit of a micromanagement hurdle with dropping baby then firing when wave comes

brings me back to r2e1 duos

[modern ibex]

Yeah, I love the Arbalist to death but the spooling up and the long reload might be just too much there

[silver fable]

arbalist is in a strong spot right now, feel free to lean into it

it massacres waves while being one of the wave specials that's blessed with respectable power into bigs, you'll get better at managing the charge-up, it has a decent reload cancel

[modern ibex]

Nice, happy to hear that it's actually a strong weapon

I've not looked into reload cancels at all, I'll certainly have to

[silver fable]

veruta is the stronger machine gun at peak, but arbalist is not far behind

[icy cave]

It's still one of the strongest pick, same with veruta. Bringing it within a team is never a bad choice tbh

[modern ibex]

That's great to hear. I did try the Veruta and I found it super hard to see my targets. It could just be me but the crosshair is just way too big

[silver fable]

hel gun, veruta, arbalist, and combat shotgun are imo the biggest balance offenders right now

in that they all play quite a bit too good outside their lane

despite playing amazingly within their lane (waveclear)

if you're running anything within that group then you're running an amply strong weapon, to say the least

[wintry kayak]

I’ll probably put 6 in or something. 4 does not do the variety in specials justice

[faint flame]

does c-foam blobs corrolate with c-foam ammo, excluding c-foam boosters

[wintry kayak]

I wanna say pump shotty with extra flanking bonus, veruta with slightly less damage but 2 stagger, sniper with 15 ammo and revolver with 15 damage (hits charger breakpoint)

what am I missing

[wintry kayak]

C foam ammo is the amount of blobs you can shoot yes

20% = full charge = 12 blobs I believe

[silver fable]

this is honestly a pretty good spread as it stands

[wintry kayak]

I wanna make the MG less versatile, do you think this small rework would be good or bad for the game?

[silver fable]

from my taxonomy above it's 2 from A, 1 from each of B and C

[wintry kayak]

I could technically speaking add one piercer

[silver fable]

I'd consider maybe adding har, just as a nimbler, more accessible auto special

[wintry kayak]

just feel like they’re hard to balance

[wintry kayak]

uhhh fair point but I guess most people playing would be doing so because they’re bored of originals

[silver fable]

yeah I think you need to take damage out of the mag somehow to bring veruta back into line

[wintry kayak]

mhm

lowering mag size is bad though

[silver fable]

sure, but I wouldn't say this is just for beginners

[silver fable]

yeah I could see damage being the way to go

[wintry kayak]

that’s fair

I wanna make it feel more “heavy” though

like uhh

a medium between precision rifle and heavy AR or something

full auto slow fire rate

hits hard but also kicks hard?

either that or the complete opposite

like more of a cqc SMG esque weapon made to magdump quick burst damage

[silver fable]

I'd revert the fire rate buff at the very least

[wintry kayak]

I don’t think it’s overpowered now though

[silver fable]

har is overshadowed by just generally more solid and well-rounded waveclear specials right now, but its dps is a bit silly

[wintry kayak]

so I’d have to buff something else

I mean that 4.something damage is nice yes

[silver fable]

52dps

more than pump shotty

[wintry kayak]

pump shotty is more sustained damage though

[silver fable]

I'm not saying it's strictly better pump shotty or anything silly like that

but r6 har was fine

hell I used to think r6 har had a bit too much damage

[wintry kayak]

imma make one of those damage damage weapons possibly

no range no sustain

[silver fable]

now I long to go back to that balance

[wintry kayak]

but not scattergun

[silver fable]

(for har at least, let's leave r6 sniper in the wastebin of history)

[wintry kayak]

hehe

my beloved

[cold quarry]

r6 sniper but with explosive rounds

[wintry kayak]

burst scatter cannon

like a burst shotgun😎

10 bullets in the mag

2 bursts of 5

[cold quarry]

semi auto

oh good heavens

[wintry kayak]

10x3 damage per shot

😎

it’s just a worse scattergun then

but better against smalls

imagine wiping surges with that

I might experiment with the idea but it feels impossible to balance

like scattergun

(and sniper but don’t tell 10c about that one)

[cold quarry]

scattergun is easy to balance

hook it up to a belt-fed 20rnd magazine

done

perhaps add dragonsbreath pellets for good measure

[icy cave]

wait till you get a team that are bringing 3 snipers on R2E1

[silver fable]

I honestly think scattergun in the last balance we saw it in was fine

right now it might look a bit sus with its r6 ammo compared to current sniper

[wintry kayak]

maybe make it one slug for 160 dmg with 50m falloff instead

[cold quarry]

unironically ive always wanted a one-round gun in this game

the sniper's sniper

[wintry kayak]

can do

[icy cave]

make it a BFG

[wintry kayak]

what if I just make a railgun

like

hel rifle with 1 in the mag

1s chargeup

[icy cave]

dunno not a fan of railing

[cold quarry]

probably the only way you could have an AOE gun in this game would be that

1 in chamber, like 4 on backup

[wintry kayak]

I’ll go pierce as opposed to AOE because AOE is hard

nah

it’s not gonna make it into the game

if I do ever add a piercing weapon

any kind

it will have longer chargeup than in vanilla

bc the ability to use hel rifle reactionary has always felt strange to me

[cold quarry]

i feel like hel rifles ammo is what unbalances it to me

even if you pen NOTHING it has the same damage/ammo as the pump shotty?

[wintry kayak]

like whipping it out and just no scoping a charger to the front at 40m

yep

it’s kinda stupid

[cold quarry]

feel like cutting it down to 25 from 28 would be a decent start at least

[wintry kayak]

if I decide to add hel rifle it will be as a low dps weapon

[wintry kayak]

it’s 30

[cold quarry]

wiki says 28

[wintry kayak]

right now

[cold quarry]

did they buff it

[wintry kayak]

that can’t be right

it’s always one shotted chargers

[silver fable]

it's been 30 since, like, r5

[cold quarry]

no I meant ammo

not damage

[wintry kayak]

ohhhh

the message before it you were talking abt damage

[silver fable]

I think in r3 both hel specials were introduced with weak stats

[wintry kayak]

so I got confused

[silver fable]

then they had a hiatus in r4 while burst cannon dominated

then they both came back in r5 with the damage numbers they have now

or hel gun might've received a slight damage buff in r6? it definitely was 2shotting chargers in r5

[cold quarry]

thats brutal

[silver fable]

from back in the day when they used to get weapon data by shooting each other because data mining was taboo:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TLAEQjYkB8eT67iz2PejtbGBe83YTjUNsf5DlAixegs/edit#gid=599022828

[cold quarry]

ahh numbers!

[neon gust]

helgun was as its most balance

but that was my taste

hel rifle yeah it was kinda dookie

[silver fable]

yeah sub-15 damage hel gun sounds fine

20-damage hel rifle

[neon gust]

people just really understimated the pen and helgun back then

[cold quarry]

hel rifle being able to cream 4 chargers in 1 shot is. really something

[neon gust]

and hel rifle was just for funneling strikers

now look at us now

[silver fable]

fwiw, current thinking tends to value fire rate for dps/throughput, which makes the nearly 1 second between shots on hel rifle a significant impediment

[neon gust]

Hel rifle relies on pen to be effective

[silver fable]

you get 30-something dps out of hel rifle, which without pen means you underperform most waveclear specials into bigs

and the precision multi makes it ass into bosses

[neon gust]

Hel rifle the most balance gun in the game

[silver fable]

hel rifle balance debate is convoluted stuff

[neon gust]

there was a debate?

i always tought we were chill with it

[silver fable]

imo the skill ceiling is high on it, there's a lot you can do to mitigate or often outright cancel the firerate issue

and its output ceiling is still ridiculous

[mossy aurora]

Who cares about dps

[neon gust]

noone really

[cold quarry]

dps is nice but def doesn't make or break a gun 99% of the time

[neon gust]

ive never picked a weapon and said "yo its total damage tis wild" or "yo the dps its crazy"

[silver fable]

dps is the main argument in the "hel rifle trash" corner

[cold quarry]

ive definitely thought those things about the carbine

[neon gust]

i just kidna see what the gun can do and its advantage

[mossy aurora]

DPS is kind of meaningless for how gtfo is

Revolver has high DPS if you mcree every mag and reload cancel, that doesn't mean jack shit

[wintry kayak]

DPS is meaningful on primaries

less so on specials imo

all specials kill fast enough to depend on skill and holding back ammo

[silver fable]

yeah okay, for some guns dps isn't a great indicator, something or other makes it an unrealistic way of gauging what the gun does

[neon gust]

can it 1 shot strikers, charger, whats its purpose, do i funnel yes or no, can i set up a multikilll?, does it have thermals

more applicable to what dps it does

[silver fable]

but for other guns, dps is the thing what tells you how long you need to point the thing at a big before it dies

[wintry kayak]

although the very reason why carbine is so dominant is because of its DPS

[cold quarry]

carbine is dominant for more than that

[mossy aurora]

Isn't the argument for why hel rifle isn't that strong is that the pen doesn't work how it's supposed to and it's really niche, not because it has low dps

[neon gust]

pretty much

[wintry kayak]

for me it’s mostly the haha my gun kills stuff fast so I can get away with getting swarmed

[neon gust]

guns pretty balance imo

[silver fable]

people oversell pen bug, it still gets a lot of pen

[cold quarry]

thats true

but the ammo efficiency, mag size, total ammo being so insanely high help too

[wintry kayak]

mag size and reload are so good yeah

[cold quarry]

reload too forgot that one

[wintry kayak]

I feel like I run out of ammo pretty quickly though

compared to other primaries

[cold quarry]

i feel like compared to other auto/bursts the carbines reserves are endless

esp when it can cleanly 2-burst grunts

[wintry kayak]

I’m having a lot of difficulty balancing my ammo when I play carbine

whatever I do to balancing in my version

[neon gust]

cuz carabine its just braindead gameplay and you can just spam it

and can deal with a lot of things

[wintry kayak]

I will allow burst rifle to one burst with 1 body 2 head

[neon gust]

because of its high damage and fuck ton of ammo

[silver fable]

these are all fair enough, and as someone who takes dps into account I wouldn't try to use dps to shortcut these factors at all

[neon gust]

so if you take a more balance primary you'll be more careful on how you using it

but carabine just busted

[wintry kayak]

carbine is kinda busted yeah

[cold quarry]

carbine makes the game feel like l4d

just effortlessly mulching hordes

same with +main dmg hel revo or dmr

[mossy aurora]

I don't understand how you're saying pen bug is oversold but saying hel rifle only has 30 dps

[wintry kayak]

if I would include carbine I would nerf its damage and increase its precision to make it restricted to closer ranges and more accuracy I think

[mossy aurora]

If you're only getting 30 dps out of hel rifle you aren't using the weapon how it's supposed to be used

[wintry kayak]

also pen bug is only an issue when you shoot legs basically

[mossy aurora]

Nah it happens for other things too

[wintry kayak]

arms possibly

but a clean bodyshot is fine

[neon gust]

nah

[silver fable]

that wasn't factoring in pen, just talking about its killing power into one big in isolation, which can matter

[neon gust]

its broken even on bodyshots

[mossy aurora]

Crawlers are ass for hel rifle

[wintry kayak]

it has 6 pierce in the datablocks right

[neon gust]

trust me, when i was doing that cringe rebalance video i had to do like 17 retakes because the pen didnt fucking work

[wintry kayak]

when do you ever kill more than 3 anyways

not often

[neon gust]

i regret deeply saying revo needs 16.1 damage

that shit was stupid

only that part tho

[wintry kayak]

I think revo deserves to two tap chargers

[neon gust]

small doors

[cold quarry]

high cal in the corner sobbing

[neon gust]

thats where you notice it the most

[wintry kayak]

high cal can easily have 30 damage again btw

[neon gust]

r5e1 you will notice it

[wintry kayak]

it has 8m falloff

it’s not like chargers automatically die

like with AHEM hel rifle

[silver fable]

how much pen were you getting on average though?

[mossy aurora]

Yeah but no one who understands the game thinks "hel rifle isn't that good because it's not that efficient against lone giants"

[neon gust]

memory its fuzzy but i always varied from 2 to 4

[wintry kayak]

who uses hel rifle on R5E1 when you can use sniper instead😎

[silver fable]

3 or 4 would still be pretty high value imo

2 is a little wonky

[neon gust]

i think the issue its more about the consistency of getting those kills

like i go defending this wave thinkinh my hel rifle will pen 5 but then the homie only pens 2

then my next shot pens 4

[silver fable]

if you're frequently getting 1 because pen bug is absorbing absolutely all of your pens, then yeah there's a case that hel rifle doesn't get pen

[neon gust]

then you get overwhelemd

then you push back to teammate crying

[silver fable]

I don't know, I think you're still getting a disgusting cleanup if you're penning random numbers between 2 and 5

[silver fable]

I mean, rayalot sweats on hel rifle fire rate a lot

kills bigs slowly, pen is overrated, etc

[wintry kayak]

I think ammo efficiency is the thing that bothers me

[neon gust]

yeah but ray its a crackhead

[silver fable]

I feel like somewhere in rayalot's (negative) opinion on hel rifle is an opinion that it doesn't output the damage fast enough

[wintry kayak]

your teammates can deal with giants

assuming 4 people shooting has all the damage you will ever need, ammo efficiency is the only thing that matters

okay maybe not the only thing

[silver fable]

ehh, I haven't hurt for ammo in so long in this game

[wintry kayak]

yeah because they made all the weapons so efficient

[silver fable]

also I mainly duo so I feel throughput way more than ammo

[wintry kayak]

I solemnly swear I will cut all ammo packs in half in my rd

make people think about their tools

[silver fable]

but also I feel like if 4mans aren't stressed on throughput ever then that's a balance issue

what's new I guess

[wintry kayak]

make them bring sentries to conserve ammo

[cold quarry]

sounds like more reason this game needs a hard mode

[wintry kayak]

trust there’s hard stuff out there

[fierce nebula]

DPS is how we should judge guns in this game

[wintry kayak]

?!

[neon gust]

they just made bodyshot damage higher

you will se the trend if you watched how the game evolve

[cold quarry]

true but I mean more a 'hardcore' mode that shakes up the gameplay for vets

[mossy aurora]

Hel rifle is fine if you play it with your primary like you have sniper. Use it to supplement your main when you need to, and use it fully when you need it to do it's role

[cold quarry]

bring back r1 audio-only pings

[silver fable]

I love how we're all like "dps must be the sole measure of gun goodness" or "dps is a trash metric that should never be used"

[neon gust]

before headshots where really important, they kinda are still but not the way it was before

[wintry kayak]

yeah but the magdump nature of alarms makes bodyshot damage feel too good

[neon gust]

nah

[wintry kayak]

fair point

[neon gust]

been accurate and efficient was the shit

now i can just straighup dont give a crap and bodyshot everything and still have ammo spare

[wintry kayak]

ammo balancing is hell on sniper yet it’s the only special I bring

unless R4E1

then I bring burst cannon

oh and R2E1 I guess

[mossy aurora]

U mean u are low on primary? Or u are low on special

[wintry kayak]

but that doesn’t count

[wintry kayak]

yes

[silver fable]

I think it can be brought into the action in the average fight more than sniper ever can, kinda like a choke mod

[wintry kayak]

depending on level

either

never both at the same time

[silver fable]

the recovery cancel on hel rifle is good for fitting hel rifle shots into fights

[wintry kayak]

because shooting sniper into smalls feels like a waste and shooting main into bigs feels like a waste

and the levels aren’t perfectly balanced

[mossy aurora]

Shooting mains into big is perfectly fine

[wintry kayak]

with sniper you always have either too much or too little ammo

never in between if you ask me

[mossy aurora]

If you're low on main just shoot to stagger and hold the camera for ur buddies

[cold quarry]

the sawed off would like to know your location

[wintry kayak]

look sawed off sniper is a fun loadout but it makes me feel pretty vunerable

hel shotgun sniper is probably your best bet

and also objectively overpowered bc hel shotgun

[silver fable]

ew

[cold quarry]

almost 400 hours in this game and I just can't enjoy the hel shotgun

[wintry kayak]

not when you have sniper ammo on hand though

[silver fable]

battlecruiser gtfo over here

[wintry kayak]

then it feels like you’re making your team waste ammo

[silver fable]

"yeah I ran through both of my clips, I need a week's paid leave to reload"

[wintry kayak]

because sniper has near perfect efficiency against giants

[wintry kayak]

if you’re still surrounded after emptying a hel shotgun you’re doing something wrong buddy

[hardy grotto]

Good

Pub gun

[wintry kayak]

I hate it

[cold quarry]

i have also never once pubbed

that makes sense

[wintry kayak]

but it’s good

but I hate it

[cold quarry]

it is v good

i have the same thing with hel gun

i know its good but it just doesnt click

[hardy grotto]

every situation I’ve seen ppl take it in they just don’t use it well lmao

[wintry kayak]

it has poor breakpoints

[cold quarry]

AWOL it's very nice for blood doors

[wintry kayak]

so statistically it looks decent

[hardy grotto]

Idk what it is but people just spam it from narn

[silver fable]

uhh what

[mossy aurora]

You don't like your hel shotgun teammates peppering the enemies from 20m away, seasoning them for you to kill?

[wintry kayak]

okay lemme rephrase

[silver fable]

hel gun has undeserved, incredible breakpoints that break the game

[hardy grotto]

yea I don’t like that ryk

[mossy aurora]

😦

[wintry kayak]

hel gun does not do it for me

I would rather bring revolver and that’s saying something

[hardy grotto]

idk I ran hel shotgun for r2e1 duo for a bit and it was really good in most areas

[wintry kayak]

hel shotgun against surges is great

[hardy grotto]

But I ended up swapping to carbine and didn’t rlly notice like any difference

[silver fable]

okay but this is different from saying it has bad breakpoints

it has rifle chip on smalls, chargers don't get to exist around it

[wintry kayak]

yeah my bad, I thought it had 14 damage

but it has 16.25 doesn’t it

14 would be bad breakpoints

I don’t use it enough to notice it does two shot

[native sun]

carbine stinky

[wintry kayak]

carbine bleh

[hardy grotto]

It was the only time I used carbine

and I honestly liked it

[silver fable]

I remember this

I remember it being ass into isolated smalls, therefore bad in error

hell I had an r2e1 duo with hel shotty arc too

same problem

[hardy grotto]

it was so good for the surges tho

Carbine worked super well too tho

I will admit client hel shotgun was kinda nice

[silver fable]

ya I definitely see the argument for it

[hardy grotto]

1 taps on sleepers felt good

[silver fable]

but I also just swapped back to hel revo + veruta meta loadout and got a good enough fight into the surges

just had to learn to fight, iuno

[modern ibex]

Any Sentry recommendations for R3A3? The amount of spikey bois and giants is leading me to believe I should take Sniper Sentry over a Burst Sentry

[silver fable]

spikey bois
to my knowledge there aren't chargers in r3a3

do you mean hybrids?

[fierce walrus]

there are no chargers in r3a3

[silver fable]

anyway 1 bio 2 burst 1 sniper would be my suggestion

no real need for foam or mines in r3a3

[modern ibex]

It must've been those then, I'm not sure what else. They killed me in one hit when they got to me

They didn't look like the Hybrids from R3A1

[silver fable]

we're talking about the reactor level right?

[fierce walrus]

hybrids can melee but like... how

R3A3 is reactor

[modern ibex]

Yeah, the reactor one where you need to duck into the other rooms to get codes

[icy cave]

it has to be hybrids

[fierce walrus]

unless a cheater in the lobby?

[silver fable]

hybrids can melee, but insta-killing is giant charger territory if you have meaningful health beforehand

[modern ibex]

Hm, alright

[silver fable]

still, 1 bio 2 burst 1 sniper is my advice

if r3a3 is spawning giant chargers then I believe that'd be some sort of bug with the wave data

which isn't unheard of, we've seen patches randomly add shadows to an alarm that didn't used to have them in r7c2 for example

[modern ibex]

I could totally see that

[silver fable]

which reactor round were you up to?

[fierce walrus]

yeah game could have just gotten funky

[modern ibex]

I know games like Risk of Rain have a stage director that uses credits to purchase enemies, and certain things can mess with them and let the director spawn some goofy shit

[wintry kayak]

haha giant charger go boom boom (I had 80 hp)

[modern ibex]

I had just finished the first fetch, so 4? I was on the tail end of the third code, dealing with a giant who spawned behind, then turned around to see the spiky guy sprint past my turret and turn me into paste from full health

[wintry kayak]

hybrids are insta kill territory but not their melees

[silver fable]

k, guess we should look out for wave 4 bbcs in r3a3 then

interesting

[neon gust]

chargers in r3a3?

[silver fable]

apparently

[neon gust]

whos smoking crack here

and im teh crackhead

[silver fable]

could be something funky with data blocks a la that r7c2 shadows situation

[neon gust]

I mean there is a possibility the heat thing work as intended

[modern ibex]

I'm gonna run it again and see if there are any issues, could've just been a fluke

[silver fable]

upstairs in the room just north of reactor can be arranged to be a nice holding place for when they start spawning from multiple directions, fwiw

[modern ibex]

Oh that's an interesting thought, I didn't think about moving after the doors open up

[silver fable]

may take some wrangling with leaving the right doors open (most of them) or closed (the east one upstairs, where you'd be holding while they run across the balcony to you)

but it's pretty decent for getting enemies to come at you from a single direction rather than multiple

[modern ibex]

Yeah that's what I need more than anything. I was doing fine on ammo, tool ammo and health, right until I died LUL

[silver fable]

it's not necessary per se, but might be a good idea if you're getting bbc spawns

[static carbon]

How much foam from the launcher do you need to freeze a c-scout? Do you spray it directly on them or at their feet?

[latent obsidian]

You can do it with 4-6ish blobs, its best to spray it right on them

[static carbon]

And how long does this freeze them for?

[latent obsidian]

mm maybe 4 or 5 seconds?

[static carbon]

I'm trying to sneak through that one area in r3d1 and the scouts keep tripping me up

[latent obsidian]

Enough for the same person who cfoamed it to full charge hammer it twice but its close

You in a full squad?

[static carbon]

Yeah

[latent obsidian]

A lot of people pull that room, you can fight it and be okay if you defend in the right spot

Do what you can with the cscouts but worst case scenario is you get caught in the room and die

[static carbon]

Yeah, that happened twice

We got caught in the room full of them

[latent obsidian]

If it were me I'd try and snipe one of the cscouts in the back and then run outside to defend with sentries

Depends on how nice your layout is ofc

[static carbon]

I'm worried about supplies considering the alarm and funny enemy that awaits just after

Does the resupply room have a good amount of resources?

[latent obsidian]

There is a decent amount of supplies ahead of you at that point

[static carbon]

Does a back shot with the sniper take them out?

[latent obsidian]

But you should be well stocked here because you can explore all the areas you rushed through before

[latent obsidian]

Yes

[static carbon]

Oh, and speaking of scouts

In all videos I see, people just run right through tentacles and hit him multiple times without him waking up. In our squad, if we so much as graze him, he immediately goes invincible, leaving no time to even shoot a second bullet

[latent obsidian]

Well idk about hitting multiple times but you get a second or so leeway after touching tentacles

If you know what you are doing you can run up through tentacles as they are extending and get to the scout in time to kill it

Running in while they are fully extended is possible but cutting it very close

[static carbon]

Hmm

[latent obsidian]

but they react to gunshots faster than touching tentacles

[static carbon]

I've also seen people getting multiple melee hits in after botching the first one when the tentacles are retracted

Not sure why the scouts seem so sensitive and quick to react in our play throughs

[latent obsidian]

uhh, from two different people?

One person certainly can't hit the scout a second time in time

[static carbon]

We've tried coordinated take downs of chargers before and as always, it seems like they have no leeway with us

[latent obsidian]

I think if one person hits it hard but doesn't kill it it might be staggered for a short time so another person could finish it off, but thats a small window

[static carbon]

Yeah, we don't get a stagger, it hunches over and screams in less than a second after being hit

[latent obsidian]

Well yeah, less than a second is expected

Do you have a video of what you're talking about cos you shouldn't ever get more time than that

[static carbon]

I'm not at my PC right now, I just thought I'd ask and see what other people have to say

[latent obsidian]

fair

[static carbon]

I guess we just need more practice with scouts

[latent obsidian]

Double melee to kill cscouts is possible but difficult

[static carbon]

Is there any level you recommend for this?

[latent obsidian]

charger scouts in particular? R7D2

Theres also this for regular scouts on R7B1: #gtfo-spoiler-chat message

[silver fable]

there's a small amount of leeway time that you get after hitting a scout, I believe less than half a second, where it can take additional hits before it'll go invincible and scream

not too sure on the mechanics, it may be due to a stagger

for charger scouts in particular you'll require at least two full back hits with hammer to melee one

and due to host-client jank, it's recommended that host hits last

and angle matters -- you'll lose damage if you're more than 22 degrees off from a direct back hit I believe

[static carbon]

Yeah, this all seems like it would be too difficult to set up in that room full of so many charger variants. I think we might just pull the room or sneak past

[silver fable]

depends on room layout

[latent obsidian]

I don't recommend sneaking past 😁

I guess its possible but very risky

[silver fable]

but yeah I'd never sneak past

[static carbon]

It's r3d1, from what I've seen, you can safely sneak past the room and never look back

[silver fable]

snipe one (sniper or hel rifle or choke mod can do this with a backshot), kill room, kill scout wave if another scout went off

[latent obsidian]

If you actually get past then good for you but if a charger scout corners someone part way through the room you're toast

[silver fable]

yeah again, depends on room layout

sometimes the layout just hands cscout melee opportunities to you

[static carbon]

Really, the scout isn't the biggest threat. The issue is that the room has so many other enemies, and the scout forces you to move when enemies are throbbing to escape the tentacles, so its a lose-lose situation

[silver fable]

other times they hover on top of a clump of bbcs or whatever and you don't get a shot

[static carbon]

We also have one player with decently high ping, who oftentimes scuffs easy stealth portions

[latent obsidian]

Definitely don't sneak then 😂

this is one of the most difficult stealth rooms in the game

[silver fable]

again, just snipe a scout and pull room imo

[static carbon]

Yeah, guess we'll just do that

Hopefully the scouts are in different rooms again like last time

[latent obsidian]

as long as you pay attention to the scout wave direction you should be okay

[silver fable]

your combat skills are arguably more important to develop than your ability to sneak through scout rooms anyway

[static carbon]

Our sniper is really good with it, so I have confidence they can kill the scout, should it be only one in the room

I actually posted a video he made in #gtfo-media

Just some other random level

[native sun]

If you can't kill both (or even just one of the) scouts then you can also just keep running away from the room all the way past wherever the scout waves spawn. At that point you can turn around and all the enemies will be coming from the same direction and you can safely hold down M1

[static carbon]

But he's quick with his gun

[latent obsidian]

I watched that actually, pretty clutch hold

[static carbon]

Yeah, the mission end screen was cut off due to short, but only one player was alive at the time the mission end screen appeared and he was in "critical"

[static carbon]

True, that room has multiple entrances, so I can hear where they are coming from and run in that direction

[native sun]

Well if you're confident that you heard where they're coming from then you probably want to run the other way. Achieves the goal of getting all the enemies to be coming from the same direction even faster

[static carbon]

Yeah, I have surround sound, I'm always the one who tells the squad which direction they're coming from during the waves

Guess I'm the ears of the operation?

[latent obsidian]

a sound job

[static carbon]

He'll be happy to hear that

[modern ibex]

Yeah I watched that too, it was hype.

[static carbon]

But yeah, guess I'll get him to clear the scout and then we'll pull

He's happy to hear all of your praises

[icy cave]

you had teammates ?

[mossy aurora]

you talking about like this?

https://streamable.com/huc5ae

[static carbon]

Wow, impressive

I'm sure the other charger giants and charger hybrids would mug me after trying something like that to one of their own, though

[mossy aurora]

that clip is because im playing on 350 ping host from asia

and like they said ealier, if host is one of the people meleeing the charger scout he needs to hit second

[sour bronze]

Does anyone know if there will be any steam achievement business happening with this game?

[civic wave]

Probably not

[sour bronze]

oh well

doesn't really change much

would've been nice to maybe have some extra "challenges". Like an achievement to finish a rundown checkpointless or finish a level hitless, or something like that

[lone mortar]

No

Sadly so

I would want to have some funni achievements tags like “You survived”

[sour bronze]

Yea and it would add more replayablility for ppl who have finished to game but want to continue playing. They could try to get 100% on the game, and finish the extra challenge. This also seems fairly simple to implement, so it would be nice.

but im not gunna get my hopes up

since you know

[dry pumice]

Considering how bugged achievements were in phoenix point... Lets not.

Inb4 another RESET

[modern ibex]

Could I get some tips for using the Biotracker effectively? I tried it for the first time today and it just wasn't it. I see video of squads fighting waves where everything coming in is just constantly lit up.

But when I used it, the range seemed totally random. Sometime it would light up everything on the scanner, and sometimes only a few close things. During the last wave of R1D1 I literally couldn't use it fast enough to mark creatures before they got past the sentries

[dry pumice]

Honestly I don't know myself. The bots are kings with bio and we are nothing compared to them.

The key seems to be to wait until wave gets closer to ping as many as possible and hopefully the time between waves is enough for a cooldown.

[lone mortar]

Well for starters

In alarm spawns

You typically wana hol it at 50 charge of tags

That way you have the luxury of tag first and run back to bio scans

Or late for team/sentries

[modern ibex]

Yeah, the video I was watching had a bot with the tracker and the entire wave was just constantly lit up

[dry pumice]

Yep, bots are bio kings.

They have 2 times the range and half the cooldown.

[modern ibex]

Interesting, so you mean just kind of tap M1 to keep it at half charge so you can use it on demand as needed?

[dry pumice]

They just ping everything.

[modern ibex]

Oh okay, so I'm just not ever going to be able to do what they do

If I'm understanding

[lone mortar]

Not that but

[dry pumice]

You can call out what you see in the screen.

That's a you-exclusive feature.

[lone mortar]

You wana wait a lil bit for enemies to be in range of tags

[modern ibex]

How can AI even compete with my sultry voice?

[lone mortar]

Or youll just be stuck with one guy getting tag

[modern ibex]

Yeah, I think I'm struggling a little about what "in range" is. Will everything on the scanner's small screen show up? Or is there a range within that range?

[lone mortar]

When the bio tracker goes ham

Thats when you take 2s to charge up and tag

[latent obsidian]

you can hear a little beep every time an enemy enters your ping range

[lone mortar]

And voila 80%> enemies population is tagged

[latent obsidian]

the ping range extends beyond what is shown on the bio screen

[modern ibex]

Okay, so I'm just trying to throw as wide a net as possible

[dry pumice]

The range of ping Is slightly bigger than screen

[lone mortar]

Someone might choke and tag only one guy

[dry pumice]

Just a little bit. Like 1-2m or something.

[modern ibex]

Damn, really? It must've just been a connection issue then when I had some range issues before

[lone mortar]

If you get the pinging you can tag em

[modern ibex]

I had one ping where there were like 5+ on the screen and it only tagged ONE guy in the front

[lone mortar]

Simple enough

[lone mortar]

Desync cause those

I can tell

Cause ive been there

[modern ibex]

Ahhhh okay, that makes me feel a lot better, hahah

[lone mortar]

But bots

[craggy pier]

bio has more range than the screen suggests we asked if right clicking would let us see the full distance but bleh

[lone mortar]

They are literally a living scanner when using bios

I mean going trio plus bot on bio is literally a free 30% sentry cpu buff

[modern ibex]

Good lord

[lone mortar]

Yup

[modern ibex]

Alright well happy to know I wasn't missing some obvious "oh you need to do X to tag like bots do!"

[lone mortar]

Bots can both make ur life good or in all situations shit

[lone mortar]

Anything else you may ask?

[modern ibex]

Yeah, is the Drekker Pres MOD 556 any good as a primary? I've been using it in tandem with the Arbalist V as my solo loadout, but would I be better served running an actual AR or something like the Double Tap?

[lone mortar]

You mean the rifle?

[modern ibex]

Yeah, the Rifle

[lone mortar]

Th semi auto with the green scope?

[modern ibex]

That is the one

[lone mortar]

I mean its a jack of trades to the dmr

Having more in mags

But you gonna have 3 shots a normal licker

While DMR 2 tap or 1 headshot

Pretty same reload speed

[modern ibex]

I'm wondering if the ammo efficiency (or rather, inefficiency) of running the DMR in tandem with the Machinegun would make them a bad combo

Like I really wanted a good long-range accurate weapon to compliment the MG, since I use that for hordes or magdumping giants

[native sun]

DMR good make shooter go ded

[lone mortar]

Yup

Its a good point and click

[lone mortar]

Which machine gun

[modern ibex]

Techman Arbalist V, the one with the short spool up time but a lower RoF than the Veruta

[lone mortar]

Yes i know

I main machine guns

[modern ibex]

Oh nice, okay

[lone mortar]

But if you’re running a low RoF gun with a tap gun

Youre gonna fall off on self defense

And i know for a fact that youre not gonna be like me and switch to hammer and destroy a whole wave

[modern ibex]

LMAO

[lone mortar]

So yea

[modern ibex]

Yeah seems unlikely

[lone mortar]

Do have combos that really synergise

Like both I always go pdw and Veurta XII

Or pdw/sniper

Why PDW you may ask?

[modern ibex]

I may ask that indeed

[lone mortar]

Thermal sights based

[neon gust]

saw off, revolver

bullpup and pr

why

because i nerf myself

[modern ibex]

Damn, and that's worth not having any long range accurate weapons?

[lone mortar]

Based

[lone mortar]

I mean

[neon gust]

i mean most fights are within 20 meters

[lone mortar]

Arbalist is a very accurate weapons

[neon gust]

he would shred everything close

[lone mortar]

But youll be fighting mostly in 15-20meters

[modern ibex]

I suppose both of those things are true

[neon gust]

trust me

the only time youll be making 30m+ shots

are either

[lone mortar]

Trust the process

[neon gust]

in floodways/garden

or on the bridges

[lone mortar]

R7C2

[neon gust]

anywhere else youll be fighting at tongue range

[modern ibex]

I've only finished R1 and just started R3, stuck on R3A3 currently. So I've not had much experience with any of those particular tilesets

[lone mortar]

Why R3?

Gotta go by numbers brah

[neon gust]

i hate r3a3 but you should be fine

its a fair level

[modern ibex]

I meant to go R1 into R2 but I misclicked 3 and I REALLY like it so far. And the helmet cosmetic you get for completing it is a banger

[lone mortar]

Its annoying for A3

[neon gust]

r3 its a banger

[lone mortar]

Yep

[neon gust]

its action pack tho

[lone mortar]

R3 is one of the goods

[neon gust]

levels are short and sweet

[lone mortar]

With or without a E tier

[lone mortar]

Tell me R3D1 based without telling me its based

[modern ibex]

Yeah, R3 has been good fun so far, I really love it. The medical tileset in particular is really cool

[neon gust]

i will say

[lone mortar]

You mean labs

[neon gust]

when you go back to r1-r2

[modern ibex]

Yes, that is the one

[neon gust]

levels gonna feel slighly long

and then from r4 and onwards

levels are gonna be long

[modern ibex]

That's good to know. I honestly don't mind the length but it does make the end really tense on a 1:30+ run

[lone mortar]

Still waiting for R6D3

I love when someone wants to sneak through respawning zone with 3 tanks and fails

Then runs out of the zone

Spawning 3 more tanks and hybirds

[neon gust]

its gonna be longer than that

but if you make moves and you master the basics

you can have some pretty good runs

time i mean

[lone mortar]

Do consider going back and finish R2

[modern ibex]

I believe it. The runs I've lost are usually do to bad positioning during an alarm or running my resources dry by doing stuff like whiffing fights with giants

[lone mortar]

Cause R2 is basically “you got time on u boi cause this gonna be a long and painful ride”

Its a testament of resolve on time

[modern ibex]

Oh yeah, I definitely, definitely will. I meant to do them all in order, but I was told I wasn't going to spoil anything or ruin any lore by doing R3 then R2

[lone mortar]

Going blind in C1 or D tiers is long and very high risk of team wipes

[neon gust]

r3 and onwards got cool enemies

[lone mortar]

Yep

[neon gust]

thats basically the spoilers

[lone mortar]

Rather not spoil em

[neon gust]

r2 have a teasing moment of it in r2a1

[lone mortar]

I only said long

[neon gust]

but from r3

spooky shit happens

[lone mortar]

Yep

[modern ibex]

Thanks! the reveals I've gotten so far have been so good

[lone mortar]

You dropping anytime soon?

I could join

[modern ibex]

Oh man I'd love to, but I'm actually about to head to bed, cause I've got work tonight, sadly

[lone mortar]

Fr fr

Don’t sweat it

Its night time for me as well

But ill be here all night

[modern ibex]

Nice, I'll have to take a raincheck then

[lone mortar]

@neon gust how much you betting on R8 being completely recycled stuff

[neon gust]

r8 its painting to be good afaik

hopefully we weill get something nice

[lone mortar]

If its the end

We better fucking get to the surface

[neon gust]

i mean we are in the surface

i guess

[dry pumice]

Or backwards - reach the inner sanctum that they found.

[lone mortar]

While lying motionless of the HSUs with no clue whatsoever

[craggy pier]

Grid menu for boosters would be nice. Scrolling through each one and clicking on them is obnoxious.

[dry pumice]

That one has been foreshadowed for a while now.

[lone mortar]

First time?

[neon gust]

yep

[craggy pier]

No, I'm going to be complaining all the time.

[dry pumice]

Yeah... I asked them kindly, but no one wants to design a new UI.

[lone mortar]

Imagine me stacking and dropping them every time i want new ones

[craggy pier]

I could design one, but I can't implement it

[lone mortar]

Modding POV:

[craggy pier]

I'm too busy with my own projects to make mods for this. But I can help basic design stuff.

[lone mortar]

Hah

As if the peps in modding aren’t like you

But sure

Cant deny any help this game gets

[ruby viper]

any tips for R3C1

[winged turtle]

go faster, bring hel rifle, go faster

[ruby viper]

Fast at the error door or the whole level?

[craggy pier]

fast after hsu

[ocean spindle]

the error

u dont need to speedrun the first few areas

i mean why would u apart from bein sick of the level like i was :3

[craggy pier]

the fact that its boring

[ocean spindle]

im guessin ur havin trouble with only the last stretch, are u with a team?

or bots

[craggy pier]

heavy assault rifles are fine

[ruby viper]

last stretch issue

with a team of 3

[craggy pier]

2 people defend 2 look for hsu pull doors if there is no scout and mine it

[ocean spindle]

yeah, well usually it is about just quickness, the two zones are a bit different, one has a giant room and the other are many rooms
usually the best is for a couple people to hold off the wave with cfoam and a door or defend it a bit away for others to go in, at least thats how i did it i shouldnt b sayin its the best

[winged turtle]

a bot is better than nothin*

[ocean spindle]

yeah
when i did it one person went in, cleared rooms, bonked the scout and searched for the HSU cause it was the one room zone, with the other u can pull those since theres many doors and the hsu is way deeper

so itll save u time yeah

the alarm gets worse as u go along so also b sure to go as fast as possible, if u need to shoot the scout cause u cant go runnin to it and u think u can deal with the enemies there, its also viable, and just along the way when u do have the HSU

if u see any doors u can close, close and mine em, even if u have someone with foam they could hold off the entire wave usin it all

[frigid meadow]

does anyone know the exact number of missions that include big flyers? (including R6)

[past mesa]

10 @frigid meadow

[frigid meadow]

oh wow, more than i thought, are most of those R6?

[past mesa]

5 r6 5 r7

[dry pumice]

Could change with alt R6, but who knows

[frigid meadow]

ah ok thanks

[past mesa]

9 of those levels you are almost always going to see them.

r7 has at least one level where it is "rare" to see flyier spawns

[urban shale]

How do I gain access to the NA region on the discord for lfg?

[dry pumice]

I think using "Channel & Roles" thing at the very top of the list

Not super sure, go check

[urban shale]

Ty I'll check I checked earlier but I may have missed it.

Okay I'm blind nvm.

[brisk lion]

I keep failing at the Monster level, does anyone have advice/loadout tips?

[ocean spindle]

hello, whats the part ur strugglin with?

[brisk lion]

the ending part where you have to grab the 9 items while getting swarmed by sleepers

me and my friends are able to get there no problem, but once we get there its just hell

[ocean spindle]

well, smol pro tip, if u choose a whole path, like goin through the entirety of the 3 zones, u will see the swarm gets bigger for every zone u open
but if u open both doors at the start, if u go through both the swarm will be the same size, the smallest one, which means u can get 6 GLPS freely-ish
apart from that, usually dividing ur team into 2 and 2, 2 searchin 2 defendin works pretty well

and also meleeing enemies to save ammo, tho its not a requirement either

[brisk lion]

ok, do you have any advice for a loadout i should use? I normally use the hel autopistol and the high caliber pistol.

[ocean spindle]

theeeeee autop isnt really for dmg, its for staggerin, it is a very coop weapon and can b useful sometimes but if ur defending or tbh in the whole level, i will not really serve u well since the waves are endless
if u want a similar feel, go for the machinepistol which has about the same range but twice the dmg, which isnt a lot since autop is 1 dmg so machinep is 2 but

better than nothin

apart from that, i would go with somethin maybe a bit more ranged, since the S alarm is very long range, and u will prob want the range too later no spoils

but its not a requirement either

ur team have have the long ranges

[brisk lion]

what would you suggest for range?

[ocean spindle]

maybs an assault rifle as automatic, burst rifle, dmr, double tap as semi automatics, tho burst rifle requires less headshots as the other two
rifle is very long range and less aiming intensive, tho still very helpful
annnnnd hel revo

which is, very nice, two shots a sleeper with one headshot one bodyshot i think

but well ur whole team doesnt need these either, short ranges could also help if u got enemies very close

[brisk lion]

ok, im thinking hel revolver and the regular shotgun

[ocean spindle]

thats a nice combo yeah
i used to go with the chokemod to kill off bigs in the S scan, but thats cause i played it with bots so i was just used to takin care of those lmao, then in completion i was in a team but i still had it out of routine

[flint furnace]

what is a cell skip

[ocean spindle]

a strat in, if im not wrong, R5E1

idk what it is about tho

i mean i guess it involves a cell not being used

[rocky dock]

Guys are enemies supposed to be respawning in R7B3?

Anyways this has completely wrecked our attempt

We didnt have enough resources to finish the level 😢

[ocean spindle]

yeah, at the start of the mission theres a red text popup sayin 'Warning, regenerating biomass detected' or something among those lines
look to the ceiling, in rooms where u see coccoons, it means enemies will respawn there when ur team is 2 rooms away

[abstract elbow]

Should I do r7a1 or r1b1 first

?

[past mesa]

have you beat r1a1

[abstract elbow]

Yeah

I’ve tried r1b1 a couple times and can’t beat it

[jaunty bear]

go for whichever you want

[abstract elbow]

R1b1 is really hard and it takes forever

[fierce walrus]

R1B1 requires a strat then it becomes very easy

and level length wise i think it is average

[solemn flint]

no

[fierce walrus]

Wdym

[solemn flint]

there are no strat

[fierce walrus]

if you know which directions to clear

its easy

[solemn flint]

you dont need to know the direction

just clear everything

[fierce walrus]

you would never make me go through the keycard door

n e v e r

[solemn flint]

me and my team clear every single room just for fun

its skill issue

[fierce walrus]

nah

its a bot issue

[solemn flint]

yes, its skill issue

bot can do work if you can teach them to

[fierce walrus]

with a squad it would def be easier and actually fun

„Teach” bots?

[solemn flint]

tell them what to do

[fierce walrus]

i cannot not make them melee things when not supposed to

[solemn flint]

give them tool and gun that are efficent to use

people have done many solo with bots

[fierce walrus]

i cannot save them from a giant outa nowhere

i have done many solos with bots

[solemn flint]

then you should know how far you can push them

[fierce walrus]

that is why i am saying that section is not good for them

[solemn flint]

they still have limit but still, you can push them far enough

[fierce walrus]

C tier gets hard, D tier is almost impossible

(on average)

[modern ibex]

Any thoughts on the Heavy Assault Rifle vs. the Machinegun? I've been running the Arbalist V for R3A3 and the spinup time and mediocre ammo economy has been giving me trouble during the last few waves that are a little more run and gun

[fierce walrus]

HAR feels vert nice since its kinda a second primary

and unless you have time for aiming with machineguns, recoil will be a problem

[modern ibex]

The recoil on the Arbalist isn't too bad in this scenario since 99% of the time you're just facing a choke and magdumping giants, it's been okay in that regard. It's just been a bit of a struggle when I need to go search for a code but enemies from the wave are STILL spawning, so the long reload time and spinup are really hindering me

[fierce walrus]

oh that is your problem

[sterile citrus]

Reload cancel the arbalist with melee cancel/swap

[modern ibex]

LOL

[sterile citrus]

Its way faster

[modern ibex]

I don't know how to reload cancel, I suppose this is a good time to learn, hahah

[fierce walrus]

if you kill the wave fast enough they will stop spawning on time btw

[solemn flint]

HAR feel kidna weird to use tbh

[sterile citrus]

Reload wait fro bullets to swap to 40, Shove (melee) , swap back to arabalist

Same goes for all guns that have a reload cancel

[fierce walrus]

both assault rifles kinda feel weird to use

[modern ibex]

I'm not kiting them at all, but by the time the terminal search phase starts they're still trickling in. Maybe it's the spots I'm using?

[solemn flint]

if you do single tap then its good

[solemn flint]

which one?

[fierce walrus]

regular and har

are there more

[solemn flint]

the normal one is fine to use

its just carbine is better

har have some recoil issue

[sterile citrus]

Ya. Carbine is just all around good.

[solemn flint]

would prefer the machine gun that have 60 bullet verson

[modern ibex]

Carbine's the 4-round burst one, right?

[sterile citrus]

Ya

[solemn flint]

main+ 4round burst

[fierce walrus]

Carbine is kinda busted

[modern ibex]

I've heard it's super super good

[solemn flint]

HAR is just weird

[modern ibex]

And really good ammo economy despite 4 shots per pull

[fierce walrus]

you can make it pretty much full auto if you keep clicking

[sterile citrus]

I only swap it on certain missions where I use the HEL Shotgun cause reasons

[solemn flint]

hel shotty is also weird

a special gun but they put it on main

[modern ibex]

It definitely feels like it should be a special

[fierce walrus]

i never used hel shotgun

i just don’t like shotguns

[modern ibex]

I think it's objectively good at what it does but boy does it feel bad to use

[solemn flint]

the long reload make it weird to use for a main gun

but it work

its just weird

[modern ibex]

Yeah, no arguments here

[sterile citrus]

Ya it has very niche uses.

[soft crater]

Me: a full auto shotgun. Sign me the FUCK up

(And well it has pen)

One random: guy out here like Terry crews from expandables

[covert remnant]

I like sawed off. ☠️

[grizzled grail]

Anyone know why some reactor waves are so delayed? For R4D1, chargers only showed up a full minute on 2nd wave after alarm was finished and after we cleared the 2 scouts West.

[weary mesa]

Depends on where you hold and how quick you kill

[past mesa]

for r4d1

sometimes you can get unlucky spawns

[silver fable]

if ammo is your issue with arbalist, then heavy assault rifle isn't going to help you

[silver fable]

especially if you're magdumping bigs, the machine guns get to do this more than har because they get more ammo
this sheet provides efficency comparisons etc:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JgIVxWac3LVQvO5btULhpdlYU_Dfe2x2ZxdcQ8-Uy8I/edit#gid=1513327600

in terms of being a nimbler gun for run-and-gun responsiveness, har is that, yes

har is in a bit of a weird place right now, imo it tends to be underrated

it was always great into smalls, and it actually cuts down bigs faster than the machine guns

but you will notice your ammo dwindle if you need to cut down bigs with it often

which kinda makes it a fair waveclear special

[tardy ingot]

Its 5 total for big flyers

Jish said flyers total

[frigid meadow]

ah gotcha, thanks for clarification, but are there missions in R7 with big flyers, or are they R6 exclusive

[past mesa]

r7e1, r7c2

[naive vale]

Is the Accrat ND6 Heavy SMG any good?

[frigid meadow]

yes, solid ammo efficiency, decently short reload, does what a main weapon should

[naive vale]

Thanks.

[silver fable]

[tardy ingot]

3 in r7

[silver fable]

someone said the heavy smg is good?

[tardy ingot]

Heavy smg sucks @naive vale

[frigid meadow]

why does it suck?

[tardy ingot]

Awful efficiency
Garbage dmg/mag
Being a full auto

[silver fable]

yeah heavy smg gets dunked on a lot, hence my

[frigid meadow]

huh it has really good efficiency i thought, you can kill 55 strikers with its max ammo which is more than most other mains, also why is full auto a reason it's bad?

[naive vale]

I like full-auto because I can burst anyways and full auto a giant if needed.

[past mesa]

it is just pdw but worse

[tardy ingot]

ah nvm, appearantly the kills/refill is wrong on the spreadsheet. It has average efficiency. But dreadful mag size

[tardy ingot]

Dont full auto giants with main guns usually :|

[silver fable]

looks like if you do perfect 2+4 kills you can get efficiency comparable to the pistol
but you need to put in unrealistic work to get anywhere close to that, and its poor body efficiency is probably closer to the truth
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JgIVxWac3LVQvO5btULhpdlYU_Dfe2x2ZxdcQ8-Uy8I/edit#gid=1513327600
(edit: eva says the spreadsheet efficiency numbers are wrong, feel free to ignore pending confirmation)

[frigid meadow]

well you're never going to use it against giants since it's a main, all mains have very poor efficiency against tankier enemies

[tardy ingot]

heavy smg needs 3 mags to kill a giant

[covert remnant]

Use sawed-off. 🙏

[naive vale]

I know, I always use special but that isn't an option sometimes.

[tardy ingot]

As said above, its efficiency is better than stated. But average only at best. And mains suffer from usually not getting even remotely close to their theoretical efficiency

[tardy ingot]

Not that one fn

the other

[tardy ingot]

if you wanna mag dump giants. See hel shotgun or carbine

[frigid meadow]

i know but the practicaly doesn't differ immenesely, especially since this game emphasizes precision

[tardy ingot]

hel shotty does 3 1/2 times as much per mag compared to heavy smg

Carbine does 2 times as much

[frigid meadow]

granted the amount of staggering is staggering

[tardy ingot]

Burst is incredibly important

heavy smgs mag size is not good at all

[frigid meadow]

im not saying you full auto spray, of course you're going to burst, i dont see why the mag size being big is a bad thing

[tardy ingot]

Let me shower real quick i gotta get rdy for uni brb

[silver fable]

to me the damning things for heavy smg have to do with its throughput, e.g. low damage per mag, likely 3 kills per mag unless you're a god

[frigid meadow]

if you gotta do stuff go ahead, i was mostly just throwing that comment out while browsing

[frigid meadow]

ammo efficiency is still going to be the most important factor, and mains dont really differ all that much in kills per mag, not to mention reload times arent that long and mostly dont matter anyway if you're keeping your distance (which you should be if you're not running a shotgun)

[silver fable]

nah, imo ammo efficiency hasn't mattered that much in a very long time

and heavy smg is probably hurt by keeping your distance due to its falloff, no?

I looked up the reload times, looks like heavy smg has a decent cancel which helps

[frigid meadow]

in any game with scarce ammunition, ammo efficiency matters due to the fact that you just dont have many bullets, so every bullet becomes much more important

[silver fable]

yeah but gtfo isn't really a game with scarce ammunition

[frigid meadow]

depends on specific falloff, but there arent many long ranges in this game to begin with

some missions i know go overkill with the ammo but most missions restrict your resources, that's always been a core part of the game no?

[silver fable]

yeah but you suggested that players should be keeping their distance when discussing reloads

[frigid meadow]

especially with the amount of alarm padding

yeah reloads dont matter at mid ranges i meant which is most areas in the game for fighting

there are exceptions but most alarms are in moderately big areas

[silver fable]

it's a part of the game's "identity", but if you're skilled with gunplay and getting neat kills then almost every level in the current build gives you more ammo than you need

[frigid meadow]

in short range yes reloads matter a lot more obviously

[silver fable]

friend, heavy smg's falloff starts at 7m

[frigid meadow]

oh really? first ive seen this take, are there specific rundowns that follow this trend? or more overall thing you'd say

[silver fable]

I'd have to go out of my way to pick specific levels that actually feel ammo-constrained

[frigid meadow]

no need for the passive aggression lol, just talking

also idk what 7m looks like exactly

[silver fable]

no aggression (passive or not) implied/intended

[silver fable]

pump shotgun starts falling off at 4m

to get a real idea of how falloff works out though we'd need to nerd out with falloff efficiency calculations

like, hel revo falloff starts at 10m

but at like 20m out you're still 1+1'ing strikers

[past mesa]

Fall off goes from a liner relation shit from start distance to max distance where you do 1/10 of the dmg

[silver fable]

yeah but to know how it affects kill rate you need to analyze breakpoints and whatnot

[past mesa]

It doesn’t change much for pdw and heavy smg

[silver fable]

I guess for an auto you can just say "when does x amount of bullets go below 20 damage"

[modern ibex]

Thanks for the info! I did end up trying an expedition with the HAR instead of the Machinegun and I definitely ran into troubles after needing to dump into bigs multiple times in a row

[silver fable]

we're spoilt by the ammo pools the mg's get access to

[solemn flint]

burst make gun shoot at light speed

its just broke my mouse

[frigid meadow]

do you know of a falloff chart i could look at? now im curious about this

[silver fable]

apparently this sheet does those sort of calculations?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JgIVxWac3LVQvO5btULhpdlYU_Dfe2x2ZxdcQ8-Uy8I/edit#gid=1867550002

[frigid meadow]

ahh the bottom i see, thanks

[silver fable]

also
https://www.reddit.com/r/GTFO/comments/1313txk/resource_weapon_falloff_ranges_and_damage/

[frigid meadow]

oh even better, appreciate it

[silver fable]

I don't know, most of what I've said about heavy smg is kinda armchair stuff

the autos in general are in a rough place, so when they add another one I kinda compare it to pdw on paper and if it doesn't stack up I kinda shrug and move on

[tardy ingot]

Ammo efficiency on mains doesnt matter that much unless the gun is already cracked or bad.

[silver fable]

I don't even think pdw is really worth running

[tardy ingot]

dtr, dmr, hel revo, carbine, burst rifle, rifle?

[silver fable]

like, the thermal is neat, but it's also kind of a crutch?

and in order to bring it, you need to not bring hel revo or carbine

which in particular means not bringing hel revo

and tbh I check out even there

hel revo is bae

but I do think they should do something to lift the non-pdw autos up

pdw is in a nice place if I put my balance cap on

arguably overtuned maybe? I don't know, it's cushy how they made the thermal gun a good hipfire weapon

[tardy ingot]

Also mag size is incredibly important since it lowers what you can do immensily

heavy smg at perfect value draws even on kills/mag to hel revo (a lowish ammo/mag main which has pen and far superior range tho, aswell as being better due to being a semi)

It can not kill 2 chargers per mag. It needs 3 mags to kill a giant or hybrid/chicken or bbc (death basically)

[frigid meadow]

i mean map wise, rarely are you at super log distances, wdym about the ammo efficency?

also outside of dtr dmr and maybe burst rifle, main arent necessarily long distance (but i guess it depends on what you define as long range)

[silver fable]

I think as players get better, they get much better at maximizing the value offered by range

[tardy ingot]

aside from carbine all of those guns easily kill stuff 20m out the same way they do 5 meters

[silver fable]

like, putting work in on enemies 20m away is pretty common

[tardy ingot]

the usual combat is between 2 and 20 meters roughly

[silver fable]

having a bit of a hel rifle arc taught me that you can get value spreading engagements out to the 30m+ range on the bigger tiles

wrt 20m, if you can start an engagement on a wave with your main that far out, then you get to use your main on that wave as it closes that distance, which means your main gets to put in work for a longer duration

mains as a rule are throughput-challenged, so the mains that get to use range to prolong an engagement get a pretty meaningful advantage

[tardy ingot]

@frigid meadow anyhow. Heavy smg is a bottom 3 main basically

it struggles to keep up with a lot of guns

[frigid meadow]

i see, ill probably do some of my own research to be sure but i appreciate the insight. last question, what would you consider to be 2 of the mains' best options?

[tardy ingot]

Carbine and hel revolver

Hel shotgun is arguably giga broken, but its niche due to how it works. Thats why its commonly held below those 2

[frigid meadow]

gotcha, thanks

actually one more last question, why are full auto guns seen as weaker (i mean guns you CAN full auto, i dont MEAN actually shooting full auto), in terms of mains

[tardy ingot]

harder to actually be efficient with due to bullet control
Also a lot of them have very bad stats generally

[frigid meadow]

sorry fixed a typo

[silver fable]

imo it's mostly just the bad stats thing

[slim basin]

people tend to waste a lot of ammo full auto due to overfiring, and just plain missing
the full auto weapons also have worse stats by just a little bit.
combined, they're still pretty OK, but not best

[silver fable]

there are advantages to being able to spray rather than having more of a marksman semi experience, the auto just needs to be actually good

[slim basin]

as a new player they're nice

[silver fable]

I think new players are most prone to wasting ammo on autos

new players with semis are more likely to learn neat kill requirements

but like, the auto specials right now are cracked

[slim basin]

i just remember crutching on heavy AR majorly some years ago 🙂

[tardy ingot]

bullpup: awful reload, base dmg, bad dmg/mag and dmg/refill
Smg: low range and dmg aswell as dmg/mag
AR: lowish dps, dmg/mag, dmg/refill
Pdw: low dmg mag/range (exchanges for insane reload speed, thermal and good dmg/refill)
Machine pp: awful range, spread, not so good ttk

[tardy ingot]

Cuz they actually get more dmg than their semi counterparts (combat shotty aside) for wave clear

[slim basin]

oh, is there a best turret at the moment? last I checked in was when burst was god

or are they balanced now

[silver fable]

burst should be your default

sniper is arguably undertuned, but can still put work into chargers/bigs when you need that, and is good to mix with burst on reactors where it can use generous sightlines to do good work into bigs

auto bad (okay it's meant to be a stagger/delay sentry, on paper maybe good into surge alarms, but in practice even then ehh)

shotgun bad (inherently wonky because sentries aim for heads which wastes shotgun pellets, they compensated by buffing its stats into the ceiling, might be good if you care to put the effort into finding good setups for it but imo save yourself the trouble and take burst)

[slim basin]

aight, sounds good

[silver fable]

on this,
I've registered my mild dissent on these bullpup damage remarks before, imo give it a good reload cancel and maybe a slight improvement to bullet cost and it's fine
I can actually respect switching to mpp for huge up-close holds, though it doesn't get that far out of carbine's shadow here and if you're running a nimble special then you should pass up on mpp in favour of hel shotgun, so mpp's area of comparative advantage is pretty narrow
obv. prevailing opinion is that pdw is pretty strong as is

[cold quarry]

Bullpup 2.1 DMG coming alt:r6 confirmed

[silver fable]

man, if new players weren't so fond of the look and feel of bullpup, I wonder how hard 10cc would buff the gun's damage and ammo in the face of players snubbing that reload

[neon gust]

bp: 2.1 damage, falloff: 12m, bullet cost:1.5 >1.8
smg: 2.3 damage
AR: 2.7

machinepistol, hipfire 3 > 1.0

carabine: 2.38? > 2.1 falloff 10m > 8m burst delay 0.1 > 0.235

now go fight

[silver fable]

bullpup would have to near one-mag a giant to justify that reload

[neon gust]

why are we using giants as a metric

theyre for smalls

if the gun its design for a small

then why try to justify buff it by saying giants

[silver fable]

sure but the impact has to at least come close to justifying the reload

and most specials reload quicker

one-magging a giant was just an example

[neon gust]

the reload needs to justify the benefits of the gun

bp have good, range, laserbeam spread, the only gun with 1x pres mult

[silver fable]

you still only bodyshot like 4 enemies per mag with a 2.1 damage bullpup

[neon gust]

who says anywayone will be bodyshotting

thats an unrealistic standar

[silver fable]

if all the gigachad vets are going to get perfect neat head+body kills with no overspill, then I'll stand corrected

[neon gust]

nobody hits full spreedsheet numbers ever

[silver fable]

but at 2.1 damage you neat bodyshot kill a striker with 10 bullets, which is 4 per mag without overspill

so in practice maybe you get some headshots, maybe you get overspill

[neon gust]

you will get headshots

[silver fable]

imo it nets out at around 4 kills per mag

then you send your gun back to the manufacturer for a reload

[neon gust]

unless whoever its shooting its a lobotomite then i really doub people will go and bodyshot only

[silver fable]

like I said, I expect some headshots, some overspill

[neon gust]

hel revo without reload cancel