balance-feedback-discussion

[half girder]

allo would shit on both hard core

it’s 2.8 in legacy

[placid reef]

allo almost 2 times carnos weight

[opaque beacon]

true

[placid reef]

fast attack, way better bleed

[opaque beacon]

but its slower

[carmine patrol]

Realistically allo is 1.6 to 2tons max

[half girder]

3 bites to cera will bleed it out

or should

[opaque beacon]

Evrima is gonna be much different though idk

its gonna have so much more factors than just landing 3 hits if you know what I mean

[half girder]

i can’t wait for allo’s sexy ass 1 call

[carmine patrol]

Allo in evrima prob same weight as carno, maybe slightly heavier

[opaque beacon]

[half girder]

what?!

wait nvm

[carmine patrol]

They're the same size

[half girder]

how much was carno in legacy?

[opaque beacon]

Allo is going to be a little be heavier than a carno

Allo is more meaty and slow, Carno is going to be muscular and fast

[carmine patrol]

Yeah, 2Ton allo

[half girder]

either way an allo will have more stam so..

what was carno in legacy???

[opaque beacon]

dude carnos stam is absolute shit

[opaque beacon]

idk

[half girder]

i’ll check

[carmine patrol]

2100 iirc

[placid reef]

allo is in the 3t range now, unless you mean a specific specimen?

[half girder]

ok

so allo will be….

2.4

[opaque beacon]

2 ton allo, 1800 carno and 1500 cera seems fair

225 cera, 175 carno, 275 allo

[half girder]

yessssp

[opaque beacon]

bite force

[half girder]

plus that allo bleed MMMPH

[opaque beacon]

lol

[half girder]

i can’t wait to 1 call then bite something when i’m right behind it

[opaque beacon]

I think utah is going to do the most bleed I think

[half girder]

allos ability will do much more bleed

[opaque beacon]

Not sure*

[half girder]

and it’s bite

[carmine patrol]

Allo with 275 bite force is a bit too much imo

[half girder]

allo will have insane bleed so

250 dmg is nice

[carmine patrol]

Yea

[opaque beacon]

Just 25 higher than cera? Idk

[carmine patrol]

230-250

[half girder]

balance dude

it will have poggers bleed

[golden coral]

I don't think we know what allo will do? For all we know maybe it won't be a bleeder any more, or is that guaranteed? The closest I know of Evrima allo would be the grapple thing, if that's official even?

[carmine patrol]

Allo had a weak bite force irl

[half girder]

hope it is

it better be. 😡

[opaque beacon]

Allo should 2 shot utah just like before

[half girder]

that was false

[opaque beacon]

if it one shots im done 😂

[half girder]

hell no

[placid reef]

we're getting the largest weight discovered of every creature, and for allo is 2.8/2.9t, not 2.4

[half girder]

DAAAAMN

but balance

[placid reef]

also Allo is just a big lighter than alberto like 200-300 less

[opaque beacon]

what u mean

[half girder]

allo

[placid reef]

we're getting the largest weight known at the time the creature was slated

[half girder]

well even better

[opaque beacon]

450 allo bite force?

[half girder]

im maining the shit out of it

[opaque beacon]

idk man

[half girder]

no no

[placid reef]

almost deino bite force 💀

[carmine patrol]

Should carno stun allo with a charge?

[half girder]

i said that wrong lol

[opaque beacon]

Ik lmao im confused

[placid reef]

uh.. perhaps actually

[opaque beacon]

what

[half girder]

250+250

[opaque beacon]

HO

[carmine patrol]

That's 500

[opaque beacon]

oh yeah makes sense

[half girder]

exactly

[placid reef]

bc if an allo gets hit by a carno charge thats it own falt since its way more agile

[half girder]

2 shot pachy too

[carmine patrol]

2 shot pachy

[half girder]

fuck i meant 500

[opaque beacon]

ok im going to sleep

gn peeps

[half girder]

same i’m tired asf

[carmine patrol]

Have a gn

[half girder]

yes

[opaque beacon]

thx

[livid spindle]

There have always been many herbivores because they are more powerful. Many people choose carno just because it is easier for carno to escape from mixed packaging. It is too easy for herbivores to kill herbivores. In the past, carnivores could eat enough to avoid unnecessary battles. Now, carnivores are more difficult to find food than herbivores and weaker than herbivores. I don't think this is a challenge. If only this is used to restrict carnivores, herbivores will take over the position of carnivores.You can limit the accumulation of carno by reducing some food, but now, compared with the past, which has half the AI quantity and twice the food consumption, it means that carnivores will be 4 times hungrier than before, which seems too much.

[placid reef]

wrong channel?

[livid spindle]

I was replying.

[placid reef]

ah, ok

[livid spindle]

Especially, carnivores need to eat the same weight of food, but it is difficult for carnivores to kill herbivores as big as themselves, so they should not cut the number of AI. Otherwise, carnivores will choose cannibals more, because even if they cooperate to kill herbivores, they will not eat enough.

[half girder]

so far from my 5+ hours of playing i’ve seen carnos utahs some tenos and like 4 pachys

gn fr

[alpine plover]

I dont get all the people saying to nerf utah bleed, my friend fought 4 as a teno today and lived just fine. It's just a matter of not running around with pounces

[wispy kite]

#balance-feedback message
@livid spindle
I disagree. With a ping of 100 and some desync there needs to be some tolerance for a close pounce.
Same actually goes for the Carno charge, hitting the tail or the air closeby often results in a hit as well.

[livid spindle]

Well, we'll see what it is over time.

[keen plover]

Sure, but that would just lead to the carno being within range of an allo after the attack. You stun it once, and get maybe 1 bite with your 175n bite. Allo would still have way more hp than a carno. It would be suicide balance wise. There's no need for carno to stun an allo.

[livid spindle]

I wonder how much allo will weigh. I saw a picture with a forecast of 2.8 tons. Since cerato can grab carno's food, and cerato escapes from allo in conceptual art, I think allo should be much more powerful than carno.

[placid reef]

allo is ~2.9t

so yea, also allo works much more dif than carno, doesnt rely as much on ambushes, it uses its bleed and andurance more

[keen plover]

Probs isn't even a contest. All larger carnis are pretty much anti - carno in a fight. Carnos main tool, charge can only stun up to 2.7T. Allo being larger than that means carno can only run around it and bite.

[livid spindle]

I think carno should not be good at dealing with predators bigger than himself. They just need to point their mouths at carno.

[keen plover]

Pretty much. Unless obviously a carno is paired up with another carno or two. Which at that point, it should challenge larger mid tiers like allo

I just think the balance for a 1 v 1 would mean a carno avoids larger carnis

[livid spindle]

Teno can sometimes deal with two carnos, so I think allo also needs more carnos to win.

If this is an rts game, two carnos will definitely win teno, but everyone has their own ideas. Although teno kills at most one carno, carno doesn't want to be killed, so sometimes teno can survive from two carnos.

[obtuse ocean]

2 carnos, doubt its even worth looking at an allo.

[livid spindle]

Allo should not be on carno's diet. Why would carno take such a risk? Of course, if allo is injured, carno will definitely try it.

[old hull]

it is quite amusing seeing carno players having to finally be careful playing it and they cannot stand it

its crazy when the game demands some level of skill out of us isnt it , i just want to walk foward and slaughter packs of 30 raptors by spamming 1 key

[short spire]

“You- you mean I actually have to use ambushing and plan out my attacks?? Noooooo!!! I should be able to kill 10 raptors at a time!!!! Utah is overpowered!!!!!”

[keen plover]

I mean, the only reason carno did that previously was due to pounce being absolutely broken.

[dusky surge]

@fossil gazelle they do if you're in nesting grounds

[fossil gazelle]

From my experience people rarely nest there

[dreamy fiber]

If you guarantee a growth boost, what's the point in the baseline growth? lol
Your parents, if they planned, will provide nutrients and, if they dare, will nest in nesting grounds. It's not up to you if you get those, it's part of the choice for the parents.

[obtuse ocean]

If you have skill as utah you can dodge the carno by ease, and that is the playstyle given to the carno. You brawl the utah, it has zero agility compared to utah. But now you need zero skill as utah, dont even get punished if you make a mistake.

[white cove]

@worldly timber did they buff stego bite?

[grave veldt]

no its the same

50 N i believe or 55 i forgot

[white cove]

yeah didnt think so

[worldly timber]

no they buffed it

its says it in the patch notes

nvm

it read that wrong

[winter iris]

I agree. I really can't understand why devs keep making herbivores stronger every time, and keep making hunger increase for carnivores. This just unbalances the game making it non-sense. If they really want to have more herbivores they should just implement some code that caps the number of carnivores in a server. Same thing with carnotaurus, the only real way to avoid too many carnos is capping their number in a server, that's it. Every other thing would simply unbalance the game in the long term, especially if they keep changing stats every 2 months clearly in favour of some dinosaurs

[livid spindle]

In fact, I think that herbivores should be mostly AI, a few players, and carnivores are mostly players, because it's really hard for you to let players play herbivores, unless herbivores are better at hunting than carnivores, or there is some other way to make herbivores interesting. Just letting herbivores crush carnivores in battle will only lead to another result. They are still carnivorous players, but they just can't eat meat. And herbivores kill each other because they are too strong to need friends. Carnivores kill each other even if they are weak, because attacking the same kind before being attacked by the same kind is the easiest way to get a piece of food equal to your own weight.

Carnivores and herbivores should probably have completely different game styles. I have imagined that the game of herbivores should be turned into operating a group of herbivores, but that may not be what some players want, or that herbivores can communicate with each other more easily than carnivores, such as a wide-ranging chat channel, or you can be the leader of the same kind of AI

Or maybe they should focus more on new content. Players have little choice in species. If CAR is stronger, many people choose carno, which makes you feel that carno is stronger. When utah is stronger, many people choose utah, which makes you think utah is stronger. After all, we only have two kinds of land carnivores, either this flooding or that flooding. Therefore, they let herbivores achieve 1v2 or even 1v3 at the same weight, because carnivores have a numerical advantage. Nowadays, many people choose herbivores because of their fighting power, but they don't choose herbivores because they can't easily catch up with and kill others. Herbivores need other interests, not just fighting power.

With regard to balance, many times, a little adjustment can change the status quo, but they always go too far. I don't think carno needs adjustment, utah reserves its own strengthening, and pachy only needs to weaken its attack power a little, instead of losing half of it directly.

Just today, 8 utah's beat 8 pachy's.

[thin mantle]

They’re balanced that way not because carnivores have numerical advantages, but because they want herbivores to be a pin in the ass to take down. On average carnivores are meant to be the more challenging class

[thin mantle]

@worldly timber If you have placed yourself into circumstances that even ALLOW you to get within range of a stegos bite…. I have idea what to tell ya

[half girder]

glad people agree with pachy needing a slight buff

[thin mantle]

What buffs must be made?

[hasty coyote]

I haven't been able to fight too much myself, but the 2 times I did I lost HARD. I only lived 2 utahs because I broke both of them, then made a random mad dash into the forest after bashing one of them again, but they didn't chase me for some reason. Or tracking isnt good enough anymore. Then I fought some carnos in a 3v2, but that was mostly a skill issue for why we lost.

Overall though, it seems to be MUCH harder to kill things, but still difficult to break and run.

[twilit juniper]

@wispy kite But what about from a utahs perspective, catching a carno off guard. I've survived as a carno with 5 utahs attacking by sticking to a rock for safety, and lived. But most carno players are pretty bad, no offense to anyone out there. And they just run around, trying to bite the utah rather than standing still and not escalating theyre bleed more.
Of course if a carno gets the charge on the utahs, rip to the utahs most likely. But not many play carno as a stealth predator that it is.

And my example in that feedback was testing the bleed, damage and everything all around on a private evrima server. A utah pouncing a carno, both just letting it happen, 1-1.5 pounces bleeds it if the carno just trots around after the utah has pounced it. i was more talking about actual balance stats rather than a skill issue. Since wether your skilled at carno/utah or not, is not a balance issue, its just a personal issue

also apologies for pinging you, but this place is the place for balance feedback discussions xD not the actual feedback channel

[hasty coyote]

If you're talking about pachy, I would need to have more combat to figure out the exact issue. But I would say either better stam regen or better breaks could be a good one.

[thin mantle]

Well tap rams already frac Utahs most of the time, depends on the hitzone. Better stam sounds good enough to me, Pachy has always had pretty pisspoor stam

[half girder]

just more raw dmg

[thin mantle]

Why….

[half girder]

they over nerfed it

[thin mantle]

Alt still does the same damage

[half girder]

the ram

[hasty coyote]

Honestly, if they were to up the raw damage, do it for alt bites

Ram already gives fractures and stuns

[half girder]

went from 160 to 100

[thin mantle]

Wasn’t in the patch notes

[half girder]

120 damage literally does no harm

i’ve done testing

[hasty coyote]

ram damage did get nerfed HARD

[half girder]

fluff have u been playing..?

wanna hop on scope

[thin mantle]

Yep!

I’m at work rn

[hasty coyote]

I would hop on with you to test, but my game literally won't start up

[thin mantle]

But testing would be good, I wanna be concrete

[half girder]

yes i’ll put u up against my good pachy fren

[thin mantle]

If Alt got nerfed then they need to unnerf it, ram damage is basically irrelevant of the abilities purpose so I have no issue with that nerf

[hasty coyote]

It just decided to die, and nothing has fixed it so far. but If i get it fixed, ill be down to help test

[thin mantle]

Pachy needs more stam tho

[half girder]

it didn’t

[thin mantle]

Oh then we’re fine then

[half girder]

i said it’s ram also no it doesn’t

[hasty coyote]

alt didnt get nerfed, only ram

[half girder]

it’s stam is fine

[thin mantle]

Oh, then what’s the issue?

[half girder]

doesnt need a stam buff

[thin mantle]

I suppose I’d change that stance to, needs a better trot

[half girder]

wym

faster?

[hasty coyote]

The fact that its still hard to run away, but now even harder to kill the attacker. Thats my issue at least, but I still would need more combat to figure out exactly what is wrong. I just feel MUCH weaker than I did before.

[thin mantle]

Slightly faster

[half girder]

yeah tbh

rapdex we can set up scope

[thin mantle]

Well, just don’t kill the attacker, if it’s a Carno break it’s leg and leave. If it’s a Utah use Alt to stun it then break its leg or body with a ram afterwards

[hasty coyote]

I tried that, but I have only gotten body fractures recently, and its messing me up.

[half girder]

id rather kill something then let it come back nd hunt me later

[thin mantle]

Then That’s a hot reg issue

[thin mantle]

Then go for it, it’ll just take longer

[hasty coyote]

I wish i could. my game decided to just die and won't start up all of a sudden

[half girder]

nerfing something to kinda force it to hit and run is absurd

glad we can still kill shit though

[thin mantle]

Why necessarily? That’s only applicable to Carno and even then, you can still kill it

[hasty coyote]

a bit, but as I said before, I still need to fight more to see if and what is the issue. I have only had 2 fights so far, neither went too well.

[half girder]

hitting the leg sometimes gives it body dw

it could be desync

or lag

[golden coral]

Wasn't pachy not supposed to kill the carno, only break and run? So isn't this kind of how it's supposed to be?

[half girder]

yes but it’s kind of overkill

5 shots to kill a utah is silly

17 for carno for how big pachy is, is also silly

[golden coral]

That might be very true, I was speficially thinking of the carno, since you mentioned that you'd rather kill, but I seem to recall that it was said that a pachy that stays and fights the carno dies.

And with new tracking, running away should be more doable at least I think

[thin mantle]

Test first, then advocate for buffs or nerfs, but tbh Pachy just needs functionality adjustments so it can do what it’s supposed to competently

[half girder]

can’t do that with these goofy goober severs

[thin mantle]

Yeah the servers are an ever frustrating constant with this game

[hasty coyote]

thats why I haven't made a post or anything yet. I'm just talking from my limited experience so far this update.

[thin mantle]

Oh I know I’m moreso speaking to the principles credit instead of saying you’re doing a bad

[half girder]

legacy players coming over saying pachy is op, just too funny

[thin mantle]

Legacy players coming over saying Utah is underpowered

“Why doesn’t balance function on how fast you pirouette anymore “

[half girder]

lol

[worldly timber]

@thin mantle the the area was flat. idk how i missed headshots

probably mistiming the bites

[thin mantle]

As a Utah, if you’re not attempting to pounce the stego you’ll suffer. Stego has the fastest head turn par deino so it’s easy to dodge with, plus the damage is so negligible compared to pounces bleed that there’s almost no point. Even tho stego is a pretty piss poor target for Utahs considering how well guarded stegos flanks are. The bite dealing 15% of a Utahs hp is nothing to really concern ourselves with, it’s pathetically negligible when compared to its swing (which deals about 1250 iirc), and swing has a much greater reach and arc.

[hasty coyote]

Ok i finally got my game working, so if you still want I can hop on

[half girder]

join unofficial thera p

[keen plover]

You on scope? Mind if I join?

Also nice to see people wanting utah to have longer recovery time on missed pounce

[hasty coyote]

not yet at least, but I'll tell you when we are

[keen plover]

👍

[hexed sorrel]

@twilit juniper no it doesnt, if you buck, you should be able to last 3-4 bucked pounces. just STAND still. STOP chasing things around, keep your stamina high, try biting before things pounce you (its possible) and try biting on exit.

[twilit juniper]

Yeah i dont chase things (im the utah in this scenario btw, not the carno) but i bled out a carno with 1.5 pounces without the bucking.. and it died within 2-3 mins of standing still.. =/ idk what kind of tests you did

[hexed sorrel]

dude

without bucking, thats the point. you are MEANT to buck. also, you could bleed carnos last update with 2 full pounces no buck

I feel like people just aren't used to carno being not able to just chase things down no matter what

just give it a few weeks/months so people can actually adapt to a new playstyle to counter utahs

[twilit juniper]

but im pretty sure the balance feedback (where i have the original post) is meant to be for stats/balance, rather than for if your good at the game or not (buck or not, run around or not)

[twilit juniper]

True that

[hexed sorrel]

if you are bad at the game, its not a balance issue, its a you issuee

[twilit juniper]

exactly

thats what ive been saying, that the carno vs utah fight, is kinda busted, if were looking at what dino it is and its pure stats and how much dmg it does, thinking about armor and weight too... not taking in account skill

[hexed sorrel]

in fact, next time I get the chance to hop on a server ill grow carnos and hunt utahs specifically just to see how bad or not bad it is. but as a utah duo with my mate, bucking carnos do just fine.

what is armor?

[twilit juniper]

please do when you get the chance, maybe on a insta grow server where you can rlly see how it is without the intensity of a proper fight with different skill levels.
and armor on the dinos, like carno having it on the back, and i dont think utah has it, but maybe it does, need to look at the wiki for that.
(im pretty sure evrima takes weight and armor in account, the same reason why a dino for example has 100 dmg, but wouldn't actually do 100 dmg to everything, due to armor and weight <- extreme example)

[hexed sorrel]

pretty sure thats only legacy unless you mean liek pachys head does .75 damage or something

[twilit juniper]

legacy was never that ''good'' to take in account weight o-o but ive never done tests on legacy so i wont talk about it too much. but ive definietly done evrima tests with a pt for example (ik shit dino) but it had like 5 dmg at one point, but it did like 0. something or only 1-2 to carnos and even less to deinos. cuz armor and weight difference.

[hexed sorrel]

weight difference isnt a thing in evrima

only in legacy

[twilit juniper]

It absolutely is

[hexed sorrel]

they removed it

[twilit juniper]

when

[hexed sorrel]

if it is, utah only does 16.25 damage to carno?

no. it does 65.

[golden coral]

Weight does not factor in for damage in Evrima no.

[hexed sorrel]

unless it is, but it had to have been WAY different to than legacy

[twilit juniper]

i believe it then, but omg they removed weight, evrima is doomed bruh

[golden coral]

What?

[wintry gate]

I found a glitch when carrying bits of meat, sometimes it shows the animation of carrying the meat but yet. It's eather flying around your body or not there ! Lol it's funny but I figured I'd bring this up to everyone

[twilit juniper]

it makes absolutely no sense to remove weight

[hexed sorrel]

makes it a lot more simple

[twilit juniper]

simple, but unrealistic x^x

and isle prides itself on realism

[hexed sorrel]

rather than giving utah 200 bite force and acro 250

but acro doing WAY more than utah

[golden coral]

Weight isn't removed? It just no longer affects damage given/taken

[hexed sorrel]

weight=health

[golden coral]

It most likely will affect trample damage in some way, that seems reasonable at least

[hexed sorrel]

they added weight=health in update 3 i believe

deino used to weigh like 8 tons but have 6000 health but they made it the same

[golden coral]

No, I think it was later, wasn't 3 when utahs had 1K and stegos 4K health and all that? Or am I entirely lost here... :p

[hexed sorrel]

I think that was 2

or... was it, I have no idea

the gap between updates were too long

[golden coral]

Possible, I will admit, it feels like an age ago, so by all means feel free to question and correct me on this :p

[hexed sorrel]

they do have weight, like carno cant charge anything heavier than it or utah cant hold down anything heavier than it, but its just not as crucial as legacy

[worldly timber]

i played enrima since day 1. i been doing my pounces and biting when i barely have some stam left. its does sad that this game cant register anything

[half girder]

yes

buck is super effective

just buck them off and run

[obtuse ocean]

Im still laughing over how easy utah is now, me the worste utah player can stand infront of a carno pounce and teleport to its side. If i miss, no worries

[hexed sorrel]

that I agree with, head pounces should be removed

[hexed sorrel]

however, idk why I feel this "im a carno player and I got killed by a duo utah and now im pissed" vibe from this message lol

[obtuse ocean]

That? utah is way to good atm, i have no drawback. I knew it was, but this is stupid lol

yea you did, and way more

[hexed sorrel]

its really not THAT good

[obtuse ocean]

the bleed is insane lol

[hexed sorrel]

bleed damage didnt change

[obtuse ocean]

Carno got nerfed

[hexed sorrel]

pounce does the exact same amount of bleed

[warm lagoon]

Bruh XD

[hexed sorrel]

yeah its that carno got nerfed

[warm lagoon]

Takes no skill

[hexed sorrel]

it does, if you're alone

[warm lagoon]

Utah is point and click

[obtuse ocean]

it takes zero skill, way to op for a small dino . Who already have everything, expect a tiny speed nerf compared to carno.

[hexed sorrel]

guys, you aren't meant to be able to kill a 6-8 utah pack as a single carno

[warm lagoon]

Eh, I've solod the shit out of tenos since update 5 dropped with extreme ease

[hexed sorrel]

can get outstammed by a carno

[warm lagoon]

Its not a challenge anymore

[hexed sorrel]

tenos were ass

[hexed sorrel]

update 5 utah vs teno was the same thing as update 4

[obtuse ocean]

if u get cought by a carno as utah, you deserve it. So easy to dodge

[hexed sorrel]

just stop and run, the acceleration on carno is godly

[obtuse ocean]

And im a bad utah just as that beeing sad

[warm lagoon]

Utahs don't even have to time their pounces anymore

[hexed sorrel]

also, if you pounce the head of the carno you can get bit aswell

[hexed sorrel]

you do

[warm lagoon]

They practically have auto aim and can pounce from point blank

[hexed sorrel]

if you point blank they can hit you

[warm lagoon]

Pouncing used to be fun

[hexed sorrel]

pouncing used to be broken

now its fixed

[obtuse ocean]

This gonna be fun seeing utahs jumping all over the place doing mistakes, cant even pounce. But still no need to worry about beeing caught

I have no problem dying to good utahs, but now its just a joke lol

[hexed sorrel]

what is?

[short spire]

The bad thing with utah right now is that landing a pounce requires very little skill since you can do it from point blank now. Other than that, carnos just have to learn how to play defense.

[hexed sorrel]

^^

[warm lagoon]

YESSIR

[hexed sorrel]

carno vs utah is good

[obtuse ocean]

what u mean good ?

[hexed sorrel]

as in, nothing needs to be changed

stats wise

[obtuse ocean]

lol

[hexed sorrel]

its been like 2 days since the update and people are already jumping to conclusions

sure the pounce is buggy and easy to hit, but you have an idea on how broken it was when update 4 was out? I bet you didn't say shit back then xD

[short spire]

Yeah all the stats are good just make the pounce require more timing and increase the recovery from a miss

[obtuse ocean]

I dont think ever i have complained about anything in the isle balance wise, but this is just a joke lol

[hexed sorrel]

you were just roaming around on your carno life killing 8 utah packs

[hexed sorrel]

utah is a very agile animal, its supposed to get up fast not lay down and say "hit me" I think more of a stamina punishment

so utah dont just spam pounces

OR, delay the pounce

[short spire]

Right now there’s still very little opportunity to punish a miss though

[hexed sorrel]

so right click and maybe 0.25 seconds it pounces

[short spire]

Which is a big thing for pvp games

[warm lagoon]

On god

[short spire]

Teno should be able to turn around and get a kick in if they’re quick enough

[hexed sorrel]

think about lions, when they miss a pounce irl do they just sit there and wait? no, they lose a shit ton of stamina. Ik this is a shit comparison but its the closest one I can think of

[hexed sorrel]

still dont think that's the case, I think a stamina punishment is better

[obtuse ocean]

If a lion hits a hyena, its dead

[short spire]

It still takes them a good couple seconds to get up

[hexed sorrel]

you should lose around 30% of stamina missing a pounce

[short spire]

Stamina punishment wouldn’t be terrible but I’d rather see more recovery time

[hexed sorrel]

no it doesnt, they get up that instant and run away, sure they lose a BUNCH of energy( again, it needs more stamina punishment)

[hexed sorrel]

no lmao

missing a pounce and letting the teno hit you is life and death

so missing a pounce on a teno = death?

[warm lagoon]

Nah, saying on is the tough part

[thin mantle]

What I think they meant, is that now that Utah has a consistent pounce with a borderline nonexistent miss punishment and a buck timer to cushion it, the bleed is too much

[hexed sorrel]

they cant really do anything about that besides making it an arcade-y minigame

[hexed sorrel]

buck timer?

[thin mantle]

Bucking has a cooldown

[golden coral]

This. I don't think the carno blood nerf was needed. And the cooldown on buck is.. questionable, but I haven't seen it in action myself so can't say much there.

[warm lagoon]

Honestly that would be fun ngl

[golden coral]

@hexed sorrelFrom what I know, if you buck, there's now a cooldown before you can buck again or attack. This could mean that you can "chain" pounces on something, especially with the point blank if that's as easy as people say to land.

[warm lagoon]

Kinda like saurian

[hexed sorrel]

I do. my friend and I went to a free grow server just to see how much pounces it would take to bleed out a carno. DEADASS he pounced me 5 times all bucked and I was 50% blood. heres the thing, I was running the whole time

[hexed sorrel]

chain a pounce? you mean as a pack or a single utah?

[obtuse ocean]

So if you dont run, they gonna watch you die. SInce the only thing you have on utah is speed, what does that require ? you to run and catch em

[golden coral]

Huh. Well that matches very ill with what others claim. I've not been able to test anything lately due to IRL issues, but that sounds like it's just fine, if you buck. And yes, chain with a pair or more. Solo you'd obviously be low on stam after the target bucks, but if they buck, they're now potentially "open" to anyone else. If it works like I think and has had it described to me. You should try that out.

[hexed sorrel]

you can actually out stamina a utah if it doesnt go to the forest

[obtuse ocean]

They come in pack, sure 1v1

[hexed sorrel]

the thing is, bucking costs barely any stam

[golden coral]

I meant for the one being bucked being low on stam.

[hexed sorrel]

so if your 2-3 utahs and they buck, it can just chase you down

[golden coral]

But that's not relevant there, the point was that after a buck, it can't immediately attack or buck again, leaving it open for every other utah to safely get on, even from the front possibly.

Carno might be somewhat okay due to being faster, but everyone else..

[hexed sorrel]

u sure? i see stegos attacking RIGHT after they buck

I died to one lol

[obtuse ocean]

i did buck, but then another came on me. And its so easy to use pounce, even without any fear if u screw up

[unique reef]

Just a skill diff

[short spire]

Carno blood nerf is fine, just learn how to play defense. If you get attacked by utahs, stand your ground and don’t chase them. Attack them when they come to you, and utilize alt-bite

[unique reef]

All stego players are just faster duh

[hexed sorrel]

that isn't the point, read the convo. the point is delayed attacks after bucks which apparently doesn't exist on stego

[golden coral]

From what I've been told, yes. But I haven't been able to test, so maybe it's not that bad, or maybe people misjudged. I honestly don't know, but they added a cooldown at the very least.

[unique reef]

Indeed, that was the joke

[hexed sorrel]

I think the yadded a cooldown on constantly bucking so people dont bait it

[short spire]

I don’t remember seeing anything in patch notes about a bucking cooldown

[obtuse ocean]

You cant play defensive, you have speed on em. And thats its. I stood infront of a carno as utah and pounced and teleported to its side

[hexed sorrel]

there was a bucking cooldown, but I mean so people cant spam it and bait the utah's exit

or... I think that's what it meant

[short spire]

If you run, you’re just making the bleed way worse. Bite them, it doesn’t take that many hits.

[golden coral]

To be fair, that's a bad idea too if that's all it is, since it removes some mindgames :p

[short spire]

Pouncing in front of things is dumb tho

Once again, pounce should take more skill to land

But the actual numerical values are fine

[golden coral]

@hexed sorrelI'll have to ask you to test it out or find someone that can, because I honestly don't know and I'm not.. in a good state to play games, much less test things right now

[hexed sorrel]

I used to have a server, but I dont got it no more, them shits are expensive lol

[obtuse ocean]

yea much more skill, and if you fail that gonna hurt

[hexed sorrel]

that would just make a missed pounce a death sentence if you are fighting a teno

I still believe a missed pounce should have a bigger stamina punishment

like 20-30% if you miss

[golden coral]

I get the idea, I still don't think the nerf was needed, bleed was lethal enough as it was. Also standing still if there's utahs around you seems like a terrible idea, how do you prevent more pounces from landing then, or are you supposed to "tank" them?

[hexed sorrel]

well, its better than sprinting and not getting any hits, if you stand there, let them pounce, but buck and hit them on exit you should be able to kill them, also 4-6 utahs should have a MAJOR advantage against a single carno

or

try DODGINg the pounce, not running away 2 miles, but a simple run to the side and drift

[golden coral]

Oh yes, if there's 3 utahs they should kill the carno, but might lose one or two depending on how it goes. More than three, the carno will die and they should be able to get out with no losses, or maybe just one. I don't imagine a carno winning if there's four or more utahs, unless they are really messing up. I'm thinking mostly 2-3 utahs depending on how everyone plays.

[hexed sorrel]

1<carno 2<carno 3=carno 4>carno is what I think

[golden coral]

More or less, I think we can agree there!

[livid spindle]

Yes, you can almost only see the footprints under your feet. When I was chasing the deer, I found the footprints with great difficulty. If you just pass by a footprint, you will probably ignore it.

[livid spindle]

@hexed sorrel I think stego should be kept at twice the level of head injury. In the future, stego's weakness will be fatal in the face of large dinosaurs. At the same time, I don't think stego should be free to rush to the enemy and attack the enemy in front of him with his tail. I think we should weaken stego's damage and give stego the ability to attack the enemy behind him by swinging his tail quickly. However, if stego wags his tail sharply to attack the enemy in front of him, it will be slower and more exhausting, which means stego can't rush to the enemy and expose his head at will, but strengthen the rear protection to punish reckless predators.

[short spire]

Yeah but how long will it be till one of those large dinos gets added

The stats can be changed back when that happens

But for now it should be balanced around the current roster

[golden coral]

It kind of is..

[short spire]

It still takes a deino, the most powerful carnivore in the game, six headshots to kill

If a deino headshots you 6 times as adult Stego you suck

[golden coral]

A deino, a critter that is not meant to kill with bites. You got a one-shot mechanic, more or less, on everything but grown stegos.

Also even with current multipliers, two deinos can kill a grown stego, so there is that.

[short spire]

Once again, balance around the current roster. Deino shouldn’t be able to kill adult stegos in the full game, but this isn’t the full game

two deinos can kill a Stego
Cool, so the strongest carnivore in the current roster needs to 2v1 it… haha… balance

[golden coral]

Yes, I think that's fine when deinos aren't really supposed to hunt stegos in the first place. And I'm not sure I agree entirely with balancing around current roster, while it's not a bad idea, it can set a bad precedent and when things then change, everyone gets very upset. And you're telling me, that because deino has one bad matchup, it's bad balance? Should we balance it so pteras and dryos can kill stuff too, aside from the hatchlings/juvies they should be able to fight?

[livid spindle]

Seven times, because stego will restore 1 health.

Deino needs seven head shots to kill stego.

[short spire]

The problem isn’t that deino has a bad matchup against stego, it’s that everyone has a bad matchup against Stego.

@raw reef to be fair, fish give like no hunger to adult deino.

[raw reef]

yeah but you can find like 20 lmao

i just think it should give the diet with teno and pachy

[livid spindle]

It should be said that neither 6-ton stego nor 8-ton deino should appear in the present stage. They said that small dragons should be produced first to improve the ecology slowly, which means that no dinosaur can match them for a long time.

I think stego and deino should both be creatures of about 4 tons.

[raw reef]

eh 4 ton deino would make cannibalism bad tho

[golden coral]

Just like everyone has a bad matchup vs deinos really. Since they can avoid stegos, and nothing else bar their own kind can hunt them, which can apply to stego too. But sure, we could lower stats (more reasonable then than adding even more of a multiplier) for both deino and stego to make them both huntable by the rest.

4T deino would be pretty good, small enough to be challenged, big enough to hunt everything it should properly.

[raw reef]

8 shot or less by other deinos tho

[golden coral]

I'm not sure I see an issue there?

[livid spindle]

I think whether it's cannibalism or mixed packaging, it shouldn't be the official thing to consider too much, because you can't stop them in a server with no rules. Players will set up their own servers, and players will choose the way they want to play. What the official should consider is the balance under normal circumstances.

[raw reef]

dont you think 8 shot or less is too bad for something that takes hours to grow lmao

[raw reef]

deino is deino diet tho

so it should really be considered

[livid spindle]

Growth time should be reduced accordingly.

[raw reef]

than there would be even more deinos than rn

and rn the deino pop is already a problem not being able to drink anywhere thats not shallow lmao

[golden coral]

Not really no, they're cannibals and supposed to murder each other more often than not I'd say. Besides, stego takes as long to grow, and kills each others in 5 hits.. :p

I don't think the numbers of hits are neccesarily the issue, but rather how the combat looks in those mirror matches

[raw reef]

eh fair enough

[short spire]

Drinking is fine honestly, deino players are dumb and only go to certain spots

[livid spindle]

The water area is too small for deino to avoid. If you have no friends, it may not be suitable to choose deino. And I think cannibalism should be a big fish eating a small fish, rather than two adults of the same age trying to attack first than the other side. Even if you have only 1 HP left, so what? You win and will recover soon.

[raw reef]

exactly lol

[livid spindle]

When I came up to breathe, animals came to drink water, which made me miss many opportunities

But this is just an entertainment activity. Deino can hardly eat enough by ambushing. When I'm hungry, I need to find fish. When I'm full, I can ambush in a place

[raw reef]

hope they fix the ass food values next update lol

idk why but they like to mess up food values every update

[livid spindle]

They said it was to limit the super large mixed packaging, but as I said, the official should not consider this. You can make the mixed packaging uncomfortable, but that means that ordinary players will be more uncomfortable

[raw reef]

they shouldnt even try to fix it right now

[livid spindle]

From the perspective of the administrator, AI is half less than before, and the food consumption of all animals has doubled, which means that predators are four times hungry than before

Think about it. Carnivores need to eat food equal to their own weight, and it is difficult for carnivores to kill herbivores of the same weight. Clustering means more hunger, which leads to the most suitable target for carnivores is the same kind and other carnivores.

In particular, it is difficult for predators to choose to build nests. When you give everything for nests and eggs, you lose half of your hunger, and you can only pray that meat will fall from the sky

[clever tiger]

people are getting mad they cant win fights against stegos, you're just outing how bad you are. Literally everything can out stam/run the stego. If you die to a stego it's 100% your own fault lmao

[errant plinth]

seriously no fish no ai and predictably no corpses either because who the fuck would play in a massive dead zone.

[solar lodge]

Utah groups are using babies tp drain stamina and keep bleed in fight wich is ridiculous, bucking off 2 babies as an adult stego took 1/4 of stamina and added bleed, this new pounce and bucking system just make it so exploitable its dumb, had to run to a cliff and dimount them on a edge in reach to be hit to survive, wich again wont always there be a favorable terrain and depending on it to survive an overboosted mechanic is bad for the game, why should i invest my time on any dino to be killed with little effort from the other player wich is also very easy and fast to grow, kinda of a rant but thid new pounce with aimbot plus bleed buff, blood pools nerfs and the fact that baby utahs can just join the fight and be useful is just ridiculous and doesn't make sense this got a green pass

[raw reef]

to be fair the complains more on the fact that stegos untouchable,but yeah its on you if you die lmao

[half girder]

4.5 tons for stego and 6 for deino would be nice

why do u disagree bro

[dusky surge]

because i really dislike the idea of arbitrarily reducing the weight of these animals

[half girder]

why

[dusky surge]

seems like a bandaid fix that solves very little and makes the already pathetic younger stegos even weaker

[half girder]

doing over 500 dmg at sub isn’t pathetic

[dusky surge]

also would they stay like this or would they switch back when bigger animals are in? When's the point where they regain the weight they should have

[half girder]

one shotting an adult utah without developed thagomizers is silly as a juvie

5.2-5.5 tons?

idk about deino though

[verbal zenith]

Yeah, puts it in the same batting cage of a adult Deino till its bite buff

[dusky surge]

@topaz panther they literally just buffed it

[delicate pecan]

@fluid pawn Nerf utah and buff carno because you are a bad player?

[clever tiger]

Yeah but notice how no stego players are complaining about not being able to chase down/kill anything. Play stupid games win stupid prizes. Eventually there will be something bigger added then everyone will complain about it being too op. It's literally like complaining that you can't take down a pue solo in legacy lol

[raw reef]

their fuckup was adding apex herbi before adding apex land carni to kill it lol

cant wait for 2040 we get evrima apex dinos

[true ginkgo]

This.

Stego shouldn't even have been added until things like acro.

[dusky surge]

why acro?

[true ginkgo]

Smallest of the land 'apex' carnivores.

[dusky surge]

it's not even apex tier

it's a large tier, more in line with sucho

[true ginkgo]

always counted large tier as the same thing as apex tier. As apex doesn't apply to herbis

[dusky surge]

wdym "doesn't apply", of course it does

a stego is an apex tier animal, same with trike and shant

[true ginkgo]

Apex has a very specific meaning, which is top predator of an ecosystem.

[dusky surge]

the game's definition of apex and irl definitions of apex is not the same

[true ginkgo]

Which is why I prefer 'large tier' as it works for both herbis and carnis.

[dusky surge]

apex within the Isle mean something completely different

The confirmed tiers are, from smallest to largest:

extra small, small, pseudo-mid, mid, large, apex

Stego and deino both fall within apex tier

Despite not matching the scientific definition of apex

[true ginkgo]

Nova has acro at 5,800kg on the his charts. Only 200kg difference from stego.

I do think that acro should be at a disadvantage to stego, being both faster and lighter. But it's not exactly a massive gap like carno to stego.

[dusky surge]

stego should still be superior by a long shot simply because of huge damage (which is the reason stego even got apex)

[true ginkgo]

I mean stego also got it due to its large size. It's 6 tons, and potentially up to 8 tons irl.

It's a massive and heavily armed herbivore.

[placid reef]

for an apex stego is the squishiest by a long shot, its there soley bc of its damage beeing the highest

[left scroll]

yeah personally i dont give much mind to people calling for stego nerfs. The issue isnt stego being strong, the issue is a lack of other animals in the game at its power level that can realistically fight with it. Frankly I really don't think carnos and utahs should even be bothering with stego once the roster is more fleshed out. If they can kill stegos that gives me concern over how stego would hold up against the apex/very big carnis

Last thing we need is a repeat of legacy stego where it either steamrolls something (all the non-apexes) or is absolutely crushed by it (rex, giga, spino). But that said, I just don't think utah and carno are within the size range to really be thinking about stego

kinda hope allo is one of the first large-ish carnis we see added, imo 2v1 allo stego should be a nicely balanced matchup and allo can fill that apex predator niche really well (compared to carno lol) until they dedicate time to stuff like rex and giga

[placid reef]

stego directly counters utahs gameplay

carno doesnt have the tools to really fight large prey

[dusky surge]

stego is very well designed for utah counterplay with its flank defense

[placid reef]

now lets see how Anky turns out

[dusky surge]

anky should be the best designed at outright ignoring utah

[placid reef]

or kentro

[dusky surge]

nah kentro is a walking punji pit for herrera

[left scroll]

ye, i think utahs should be able to hunt big things in large enough packs but stego to me isnt it. i dont think the dinosaur with 4, metre-long impaling spikes is a great prey choice for a 450kg carnivore lol. I think utahs are better designed to hunt stuff with more limited reach in their attacks

[dusky surge]

still sucks we have zero ceratopsians

[placid reef]

literally either dibble or styraco

[dusky surge]

im hoping the recent devlog was legit in saying dibble was indev

[obtuse ocean]

How many hits does deino need to kill a carno ?

[placid reef]

4

[dusky surge]

Diablo would be an amazing addition to this roster imho

[obtuse ocean]

4? its not even near an apex then.

[placid reef]

if its hs 3 i think

[dusky surge]

it also takes one hit to kill one with RMB so...

[placid reef]

yea deinos main bite... is just there

[obtuse ocean]

yea, thats true. But then the bite force is off in force

[dusky surge]

thats to ensure people actually use its special ability

[placid reef]

when larger dinos come out they'll have to buff its damage to like 700

[obtuse ocean]

Rex prob gonna 1 shot a carno

[dusky surge]

doubt

[placid reef]

doubt

[placid reef]

rex should do 1k max or above 1k if it has to charge the attack

[obtuse ocean]

It would almost 1 shot an allo before

[dusky surge]

back in legacy

where weight also = damage

[obtuse ocean]

yea but power diffrence still gonna be same, i dont see a rex biting a carno 2-3 times

[placid reef]

where utah used to be 1t...

[dusky surge]

it's likely going to have a powerful RMB

but i doubt the bite is going to do 1800+ damage

[placid reef]

i see rex having a main bite of like 900 damage and a charge bite with bone break that does well above 1k

[raw reef]

rex should 1 shot any mid tier and the severely injure smaller large tiers,while its atacks being hard to land on someone thats avare of their surroundings,being able to get easily outstamed and outmanuevered by p much everything else

[obtuse ocean]

Im gonna be really suprised if i can facetank a rex as carno and come out alive lol

[dusky surge]

that sounds absurd

one shotting a mid-tier is ridiculous

that would put its bite force at around 4000

[obtuse ocean]

how come, it did in legacy. And they have said its more or less gonna be same

[dusky surge]

the weight system has been entirely changed

[obtuse ocean]

I dont think an allo gonna die from a rex bite, but its sure as hell gonna be out of that fight or have 10 sec tops before it needs to sit down

[dusky surge]

imagine a stego being fucking two-tapped by a rex while barely being able to scratch it, what a joke

also, legacy was VERY clearly apex biased

apexes were a tier of their own being so strong

[raw reef]

if you letcarnivore like a t rex put its gigantic jaws on you you tottaly deserrve being killed

[dusky surge]

so everything loses and rex always wins

awesome gameplay cant wait

[obtuse ocean]

better then having mid tiers owning them and everything else, if grouped. Thats rex on steroids

[dusky surge]

everything rex can catch up to would be outright fodder to it

that's so ridiculous

this isn't legacy anymore

[raw reef]

why is a rex,thats only combat action being a slow bite a gigantic pressence and slow movement being able to 1 shot a midtier like carno,fastest dino in the game so bad lol

[obtuse ocean]

like what ? trike shant prob ? They gonna be hitting hard back

[dusky surge]

you said "any mid-tier"

that includes shit like the 4000kg plateosaurus

[raw reef]

dont use fancy words

[dusky surge]

what fancy words

im talking about a confirmed animal for the roster

plateosaurus is a confirmed mid-tier

[raw reef]

tbh something with 4k hp sounds more large tier than midtier lmao

[obtuse ocean]

Devs have said it, it wont change much. And if spino gonna destroy a deino, it sure will oblivate a mid tier if it catches it

[dusky surge]

spino destroying deino is already so fucking dumb so i still hate that argument

[obtuse ocean]

i know, and i get that. But since they have said it, it prob will happend

[dusky surge]

its such an unbalanced concept

[left scroll]

you can make sure something has a significant advantage over something else without it being able to 1-shot

[raw reef]

spino and deino coexisting is stupid anyways lmao

why add 2 aquatic apex carnivores when the aquatic spaces are so small

[dusky surge]

you can give rex a special ability that could HELP it kill a carno, but having it be "LMB = dead" is silly imho

[left scroll]

more swamps please 😩

[raw reef]

what else are you supposted to give rex lmao

[left scroll]

i miss that there used to be several swamps on the map, it was more interesting and would be better for the full roster

[obtuse ocean]

How come, carnos choose to go for the rex. The rex 100% deserve that food, if one does a mistake that is

[raw reef]

its litteraly whole thing is bite,its not agile,not fast,its just got a bite

and litteraly everything can avoid it

so if you die to it its entirely on you to fucking walk into an apex predator jaws

[dusky surge]

A crushing grab bite that costs stam but will deal constant damage as it crushes the animal in its jaws, for example

Not just "LMB = dead"

[raw reef]

so same thing but longer

[dusky surge]

yes

because then you can balance it that a stego doesn't instantly die if a rex sees it

[placid reef]

you know that trike would be either 3 tapped by your 4000N rex

[obtuse ocean]

it wont , cus u have location damage. And i if rex goes for the tail, he gonna die.

[left scroll]

you just need to be weary not to overtune the damage. Yes rex should easily be able to kill carno, but it doesnt need to one shot it. Carno probably barely leaves a dent on rex so its not like the rex is in trouble. if you overtune the damage then a lot of large animals that maybe cant outrun rex so easily would suffer

[dusky surge]

no he won't, because he can "one-tap any mid-tier"

stego's 1200 damage vs rex 3000+ damage isn't looking too good for stego

[raw reef]

dude imagine if your a fully grown trex you bite a carno,an animal massively smaller than you than it doesnt die

thats some deino not being able to 1 shot pachy shit

[placid reef]

https://tenor.com/view/burying-dying-dead-grave-gif-17189345

[left scroll]

im just saying. balance is more than just "one shot smaller thing"

[keen plover]

What is this argument lol

[dusky surge]

a rex is only a slight bit bigger than a deino

[obtuse ocean]

lol if i was carno i would just go and annoy the crap outta any rex for fun then, if i didnt die even if i made a mistake

[placid reef]

I have no fuckin idea

[raw reef]

and carno is supposed to be a glass cannon anyways

[keen plover]

rex should do like 800n per bite imo. It also has a special bite. and alt

[raw reef]

damn 3 shotting + carnos gg ez

[placid reef]

ye its special if its a charge bite should do above 1k

[dusky surge]

thats why you give it an ability that lets it kill a carno easily if too close

[obtuse ocean]

As devs said about spino it will be able to grab dinos , twist their skull. That gonna hurt

[placid reef]

are you really trying to suggest that if rex doesnt 1 shot a carno its gonna kill it? 💀

[raw reef]

have you ever seen a carnotaurus,its so fucking slim that if a rex bit it all of its bones would probably break lmao

[keen plover]

carno v utah...

[placid reef]

have you seen a Cera, thats actually slim

[keen plover]

carno would destroy utah

[left scroll]

yea i dont think rex's main bite actually needs to be something very special. high damage sure but nothing crazy. default attacks are a good way to have an average ability to rely on when stam runs low (something I wish they used across the roster more, its a real missed opportunity. if you run out of stam you should always have a reliable, basic attack to fall back on, even if its nothing crazy)

[dusky surge]

rex one-tapping carno with LMB is some legacy-level power scaling. Everything is decent and then THE GODS ARRIVE UPON THE EARTH AND SMITE THOSE WHO DARE GAZE FOR BUT A MOMENT UPON THEIR DIVINE FLESH

[obtuse ocean]

Well its also bad balance if the rex cant even kill the smallest mid tier if it gets close enough, since it will never catch it. And then even dont get kill or food

[placid reef]

https://tenor.com/view/bruce-almighty-smite-jim-carrey-jim-carry-jim-carey-bruce-almighty-gif-5451718

[left scroll]

its why i kinda wish stego had a tail swipe as a weaker tail attack for if it runs out of stam to do the jab. have the jab as its high-power attack, swipe as something weaker 😔

[dusky surge]

a STEGO can't one-tap a carno but rex can???

[raw reef]

all im saying is carno litteraly has no reason to be bitten by rex,infinitely faster,more agile,more stam,if it gets bitten its entirely its fault lmao

[placid reef]

WHY DOES IT NEED TO HUNT IT?

it not even gonna feed it shit

its ~ 1/5th of rexs weight

[raw reef]

maybe when they know how to fix food values amirite

[dusky surge]

unless you buff the living shit out of animals like stego and deino to make the gap between apex and everything else even wider, rex can't exceed 1000 bite force

[obtuse ocean]

Its not about hunting, its about a carno going after a rex cus he dumb or something. And he dont even die even tho he got bit

[placid reef]

food values are proportional to how large the thing you eat is compared to your own weight, at least should

[dusky surge]

then give it an ability that ensures it dies

[left scroll]

i dont think we need legacy-like stego where it one shot basically every midtier but damn if i didnt wish it wrecked carnos shit more easily 😩 i get not doing that atm cus theres jack shit to hunt stego but man

[placid reef]

Are you really suggesting that Rex is in danger if it cant 1 shot carno?

[obtuse ocean]

Not at all, im talking about actually killing it so it gets food.

[placid reef]

its like that one guy saying that hpysi not having growth is an unfair advantage to every other dino 💀

[dusky surge]

you guys realise this isn't legacy where it's an LMB fest right? We can have more than one attack

[left scroll]

exactly my point lmao. even if the rex doesnt 1-shot a carno, what the fuck is a carno going to do to a rex yknow?

[raw reef]

more saying that if a carno goes in for a rex to bite it the carno should die because tis stupid lmao

[dusky surge]

which is fine and reasonable, but the LMB bite should not one-tap it

[alpine plover]

The tendon gnasher

[placid reef]

you know why Utahs take fights they shouldnt? bc they are agile, Carno? carno turns slower than a ship with no deck and half its hull ripped in shallow water

[raw reef]

you need to consider rex vs rex too or rex v other apex

if you give rex low dmg rex v rex is gona be cancer,not to consider other apexes lmao

[obtuse ocean]

Yes, but they have speed stam agility. They litterly have everything you need to chase hunt and kill every dino in game. Rex only have power and health compared to a utah

[placid reef]

all 3 apexes would have biome advantages, giga in plains, spino in water and rex in forests

[keen plover]

You know there's multiple attacks right?

[raw reef]

yeah

[dusky surge]

i am

[placid reef]

yes, but they also technically can compete with some apexes but have not even a fraction of ones health and theyr hunting is attrition based, most dinos in the game do not use this

[dusky surge]

imagine stego v rex while rex outdamages it with its basic bite

[keen plover]

You could have basic attack do 800n, alt deal 1000-1100 + not to mention the really good special ability

[raw reef]

theres gona be a special ability?

[placid reef]

yes, every dino will have a special

Rex is likely gonna involve bonebreak

[obtuse ocean]

Yea sure they can compete, but with all that stam / agility / speed you get compared to a rex. A mistake can be the end of you.

[raw reef]

ah so legacy

[placid reef]

also that they said rex is the one thats gonna change the least mechanically, just touch ups

[raw reef]

so we geting funny legacy rex

[placid reef]

yes, carno doesnt have the agility and stam that utah does and no way to actually challange a rex without the rex laughing at you

[keen plover]

I don't think basic attack should do fractures, rather the alt + special imo

[dusky surge]

not really

[raw reef]

wonder if theyll give rex 180 alt bite lmao that d be funny

[dusky surge]

they would

everyone is getting alt-bites

[obtuse ocean]

I think rex gonna have problem with smaller dinos, and not much vs mid.

[dusky surge]

except for non-combatants like dryo or hypsi, or animals that don't need it, like stego

[raw reef]

except dryo

lmao yeah

[placid reef]

smalls will do piss all to a rex, also... trample damage

[dusky surge]

if carno gets one, rex will get one

[raw reef]

wonder how long rex is gona take to grow too

[obtuse ocean]

off long, and prob really hard to grow

[placid reef]

7h best but really hard to actually get there

[raw reef]

considering its supposed to be stronger than stego,and i been afking here for like 3 hours now

[placid reef]

imo

[dusky surge]

doubt, i'd put it more at 5-6

[raw reef]

too fast for something like rex tbh

[placid reef]

fair but it will also prob have to get diets from like juvi

[dusky surge]

also idk how to feel about rex being "stronger than stego", especially if rex can outrun it

[keen plover]

you could just balance rex instead of giving it a really long grow time lol

[raw reef]

but in stego v rex,rex is gona bite it in the tail a lot and the stego is gona hit it on the head a lot

so you need to consider that

[placid reef]

if a rex isnt carefull stego will easily take 1/4th of its health in 1 swing

[obtuse ocean]

Stego will prob run since its gonna be out in the open neways, and see it a mile away.

[dusky surge]

what kind of rex is going to consistently tailbite a stego? that just sounds like a bad rex

[placid reef]

and rex needs ambushes aka forests

[dusky surge]

but can stego outrun rex?

[obtuse ocean]

yea, i dont see rex hunting stegos lol

[placid reef]

so yea, if its smth Stego should be afraid of its Giga not Rex

[raw reef]

well its really not gona be agile enough to get to its head since stegos turn in place is really fast so

[keen plover]

why would stego run. Rex will likely be faster and have a way better trot?

[raw reef]

idk how a rex would walk around the stego if the stegos turning around

[keen plover]

That just sets you up to have no stam and lose the fight

[placid reef]

rex would be like 25km/h

[obtuse ocean]

I dont know, i think the stam of rex gonna be crap.

[placid reef]

so its not really cathing much, it has to ambush it

[keen plover]

Doubt. Rex is 100% doing minimum legacy speed

[placid reef]

rex was an endurance machine

[keen plover]

There is no way rex is slower than legacy lol

[dusky surge]

rex is not going to be so slow that a stego can reliably race it lmao

[placid reef]

we're using irl values and rex ran at ~25km/h

[obtuse ocean]

it was ? It was filled with muscles, like lions. It either catches it , or dont

[keen plover]

If rex is going 25km, spino would be going less that 20km

[placid reef]

for once rex cant run, its literally just powerwalks

[dusky surge]

spino would literally have trouble catching up to deino on land lmaooo

[raw reef]

to be fair it shits on it for some reason so

[placid reef]

how fast is stego nr?

[keen plover]

lmao

Also stego is 26km

[dusky surge]

(still extremely stupid idea conceptually)

[obtuse ocean]

ahh, ok. But i think the giga will be endurace hunter. Since they said it will be something like old rex. Thats just what i think, can be 100% wrong

[dusky surge]

i REALLY hope they reconsider that shit

[placid reef]

giga will be speed and endurance since it uses more bleed than actual raw power

[raw reef]

(yes lets make the aquatics in the smallest biome in the game be unfair instead of 50-50)

[dusky surge]

giga should be focused more on speedy chases, giga is a fast boy

[obtuse ocean]

yea thats what i see aswell

did they even make any concept of giga yet ?

[keen plover]

no

[placid reef]

theres a reason why rex would live more in forests and giga stay in plains

[dusky surge]

imagine being a deino trapped in a small body of water during a drought and a spino finds it. Deino dead because wrong place wrong time get fucked

[raw reef]

cant wait to see giganotasaurus in the isle 2023

[keen plover]

2023?

[raw reef]

oh wait sorry 2030

[placid reef]

Wave rn: 💀

[obtuse ocean]

i know they said in one stream if the deino sees the spino, he will get away by ease. If its not like close up, but you could be right to

[raw reef]

damn ig they gona make spino fat asf

[placid reef]

also Dondi said that Spino shits on deino if it catches it

[keen plover]

Anyways, rex should be faster than stego - but stego has the advantage in a 1 v 1. Simple and easy

[obtuse ocean]

yea

[raw reef]

i wish this game made an accurate spino

[dusky surge]

how the fuck is a deino always getting away with ease unless everything is going to stay a boring bland linear river that never becomes so dry that its difficult to traverse? Unless they plan to give spino a fucking pathetic speed

[raw reef]

but alas its not as marketable

[placid reef]

i mean if a rex is going out of forests... to hunt Stegos... in Gigas biome... it chose that fate its coming

[raw reef]

would be really nice to see a spino thats not a murder machine lookin ass and more of a short back legged dude thats just swimmin in rivers you know

[obtuse ocean]

i honestly dont know eiter, but no way spino gonna be catching deinos by ease. I think deinos gonna kill tons of growing spinos

[placid reef]

Plus rex will have Anky to fight in forests it seems

[dusky surge]

i like spino conceptually but they lost me with the deino matchup claims. It's very shortsighted especially since deino is the MORE restricted animal out of the two

Deino relies on water more than any confirmed animal

[placid reef]

well spino is also a Kaiju

[dusky surge]

Including spino

[raw reef]

spino should win on land and deino in water gg ez

[obtuse ocean]

Spino dont have the grab ability, and thats darn good ability

[dusky surge]

very true, very based take

[placid reef]

all the semi aquatics are just in a very weird spot in general

that are Sucho or larger

[raw reef]

they need to add some actualy good water biomes

[obtuse ocean]

yea, think spino gonna have probem vs cherius tho lol

[raw reef]

id like a lake thats like idk,twins from legacy

[placid reef]

im still waiting to see marshes in the game

[raw reef]

where theres rivers leading to it and its a good place for semis

[dusky surge]

i dont understand why they are designing the aquatic ecosystem the way they are

it just seems like this kills this kills this kills this

very linear food chain with little room for difference

no real matchups besides cherry and spino

[placid reef]

its weird bc you have to balance out deino and sucho, both extremists, one in deep water and the other shallow, then you have Cherry and Spino and you have to make sure they fit in without making on of the others useless

[raw reef]

to be fair we will probs get that theri duck dude like 20 years later when they work on their game again so

[obtuse ocean]

off yea, i have no clue how they gonna balance sucho tho lol

[raw reef]

i mean,probably just land dino that would run to water while in danger or when needs fish

[keen plover]

sucho should thrive in shallows

[placid reef]

and then where do every small aquatics fit, do they have their own even shallower biome? just a lot of sutff that can be screwed with them

[dusky surge]

it honestly seems they just fucking hate deino since

• spino always claps deino regardless of situation according to devs
• cherius is around equal to spino in strength so im betting the same happens here too
• sucho is a shallow-based carnivore which is out of deino's lunge range (this is fine honestly sucho and deino don't need to be fighting)
• bary fucking CLAPS A DEINO IN CONCEPT ART WHY

what the fuck does deino do

[placid reef]

bary... whaaa?!

[keen plover]

smaller deino probs, but yeah

[placid reef]

thats not an adult deino

[obtuse ocean]

i think that was a small deino it clapped : P

[placid reef]

low sub at best

[keen plover]

Bary will probs have water sense + better water vision than deino.

[raw reef]

WTF BARY??=

bruh if barry kills a deino istg im uninstalling

[keen plover]

it will

[placid reef]

it was in barys concept when in nailed a smaller deino with its claws in the head or smth like that

[keen plover]

Smaller deinos

[placid reef]

Baby punter

[raw reef]

baby deinos it should kill

cuz fuck deinos

they picked to play deinos and honestly they should die

[dusky surge]

Cherry and sucho should remain in shallows and rarely interact with deino
Beipi, austro, bary and minmi should be more accessible and basically fucked by a deino that catches them
Spino should be an equal fight to deino depending on situation (deino wins in water, spino on land). These animals should respect each other's space and not have one always go for the throat

[raw reef]

but adults it should not

[keen plover]

Bary is 1400kg. 0% chance it kills a full grown deino

[placid reef]

well Austro im not even thinking bc the guy can sense a deino from land

thats an exception

[dusky surge]

But it should stand no chance in a fight is my point

[placid reef]

oh def

[dusky surge]

All of the animals I listed in the second tier were more just "has an easy time avoiding but will die if it tries to throw hands"

[placid reef]

but im not talking fights, im just saying viability, like can they be viable in a biome without beeing on the run 24/7

[keen plover]

I mean, bary would require water sense imo.

[placid reef]

anything that swims should have water sense

[dusky surge]

All spinosaurids should get water sense imho

[dusky surge]

disagree with that one

i'd only give deino, sucho, spino and bary water sense

[placid reef]

well what else swims other than bary and spino, deino, and austro and beipi?

[dusky surge]

beipi, austro and minmi would rely more on good vision

[placid reef]

i really doubt Sucho will swim (and i mean diving)

[dusky surge]

water sense is the direct result of sensory organs designed for them that spinosaurids and crocodilians both have

[placid reef]

then just give beipi, austro etc much better vision in water than them, just enough that they can excape if they eact fast enough

[dusky surge]

so yes, even sucho should have it (although i'd make sucho's ability to be able to stick its head in the water and "feel" for fish)

[placid reef]

but im more concerned that the small guys will just have to be on the run 24/7, unless they really hit the mark with aquatic biomes by then

bc theres also stuff like Teno and Cera that like water more than other dinos without beeing directly semi aquatic

[raw reef]

damn

i just facetanked a fullass adult carno as a 40% stego

[keen plover]

Yeah that's an issue. Maybe they like different water sources with higher clarity?

[raw reef]

this games p good tbh

[keen plover]

I mean, why did the carno not charge lol

or bait swings out

[raw reef]

because its stupid lmao

[keen plover]

40% stego is how large?

[raw reef]

989 tons rn

[placid reef]

they really need to make aquatic biomes have like HUGE variety in not just depths, but also land design, rocks, spots where smaller dinos can relax without stressing about beeing eaten at any point, VERY well thought out food placements and so on

[keen plover]

KG?

[raw reef]

oh wait yeah

kg not tons lmao

[dusky surge]

ideal weight

[keen plover]

So not even 1T and a carno lost....

Lol

[raw reef]

because fuck carno not only it was probably starving and i was his only hope he also cant kill a baby

lmao

[keen plover]

100%. If you're small and go into the deep ends, it should be a bad time generally. You would still have the capabilities to escape. However, I think 'shallow' areas is what the smaller semi - aquatics should prefer.

Obviously terrain changes as well

[placid reef]

deep water should be for the more food but most risk but also not be the only source

[keen plover]

I wonder how well beipi would survive with the current rivers

[placid reef]

rn aquatic biomes, or well the only one we have in game is just way to tiny to be suitable for every type of semi aquatic, rivers aint much better either

[raw reef]

currently it would be ass lmao

go in water,deino go on land,utah megapack

[analog mirage]

Just add more variety in the rivers and maybe add another swamp

[placid reef]

another swamp wont fix much, we need a good swamp

[analog mirage]

Well yeah

[placid reef]

in general we need a rework of the water biomes

[analog mirage]

Yes

[placid reef]

rn they are only suitable for deino and any big dino

[analog mirage]

I think the current swamp is fine in terms of level design, just needs more to draw people to it

[raw reef]

yeah litteraly no reason to go to it rn except to sit on the damn

[placid reef]

this swamp has no reason for a small semi aquatic to dare get near it

[keen plover]

I mean, most of the creatures aren't really designed around living near swamps. Makes sense no one goes

[analog mirage]

Add more mountain ash in the little islands inside swamp

Then Teno is encouraged to swim around those areas to find mountain ash

We also need to go back to a biome specific diet so players have more freedom of where they wanna go. There’s plenty of space on the map the devs just aren’t using it

[raw reef]

funny how i can just

get diet ,in center as stego,than run in a forest and afk to adult

and litteraly noone can see me cuz how darrk this game is

[analog mirage]

Isn’t stegos stuff all in the same area?

[raw reef]

yeah lol

litteraly sitting here and geting diet food every half a hour

maybe even less than half a hour prob more

[analog mirage]

That’s why we need to go back to biome diets.

[raw reef]

i wanted to play something more fun,like pachy or dryo but the diets threw me off so i just sat my ass here lmao

[dusky surge]

i still want a swamp in the north west where literally no one goes

[keen plover]

pachy diets are easy

[dusky surge]

there's a wide open space there with nothing

[frail bobcat]

The giant plains?

[keen plover]

Pachy diets are all in one general area. Same with dryo

[frail bobcat]

I am always there

[raw reef]

bro i ran around so much found litteraly NOTHİNG

[keen plover]

How? Orange and coconuts are south + agave is everywhere in center

[raw reef]

idk why but i didnt find any

ig im bad at this fun and fair diet system

[keen plover]

Sometimes it do be annoying finding diets

Although generally, you'll find them eventually.

[analog mirage]

Now imagine if pachy could use the plains around the coast and not be forced to be in one specific plains

[keen plover]

Pachy's would be camped

[placid reef]

the thing is the game doesnt push you in any direction, it will say, Grasslands, Jungles...

Like which tf one? theres 60 of them since diest dont exists in every biome

[raw reef]

they sure do love limiting people to just 1 plain when you dont know where your going 90% of the time

[analog mirage]

^

Let people go where they wanna go but still have to go to certain biomes in order to find food. Don’t limit people to one plains cause that kills the gameplay

[placid reef]

im still not sure why thet didnt go for food spawns in any of the designated biomes, but some biomes have a much better time finding it

[analog mirage]

They just went for the main biggest arenas around. Swamp, center plains and NW plains. But they didn’t fix any of the issues with the rest of the map being used

So spreading food sources across the entire map in biomes and also probably adding more water sources will help significantly

[true needle]

Hi

[dusky surge]

wouldnt a pounce recovery of 3 seconds be equal to or longer than prior recoveries

in which case why

[half girder]

yeah the pachy diet is the dumbest thing

when you’re adult you’d have to eat like 20 oranges to fill up

and this encourages carnivore camping

[dusky surge]

better than melons imho

[half girder]

nah

[placid reef]

the previous one was 3 sec iirc

[half girder]

prob did it to make up for how hard they nerfed it

[dusky surge]

i dont think it was nerfed that hard

[placid reef]

wait Pachy got buffed? cant remember

[dusky surge]

pachy got buffed and nerfed

[placid reef]

aha

[half girder]

the thing is dogshit

holy fuck how could you say that lol

[dusky surge]

whats wrong with the swamp lmao

[placid reef]

the swamp is fine, for large aquatics

[half girder]

copy paste plants, reefs

[dusky surge]

okay, forests already do that

[half girder]

looks garb, delta swamp looks nice though

[placid reef]

screw forests, the whole map

[half girder]

yeah that makes them shit too

[dusky surge]

do you want... not copy paste plants?

[placid reef]

you want the devs to make millions of unique models now?

[dusky surge]

in which case how the fuck do you expect that to happen

[half girder]

i want a good looking spot

work on the area

[dusky surge]

i like how swamp looks what

what looks bad about it

[placid reef]

swamps looks fine, its not designed that well but looks good

[half girder]

everything

[dusky surge]

the only issue i have with swamp is that it's way too small for a "swamp" and is far too intertwined with plains

i'd go full in and make the entire corner actual swamplands

[placid reef]

its more just a lake than a swamp imo

with a lot shrubbery

[half girder]

i want less copy paste in one spot aka reefs and those tall bushes and a more refined swamp like up2

that swamp was just amazing

[placid reef]

honestly idk why they dont just make some biomes take like a whole section of the map, like coasts are ofc beaches like rn but in ne the whole section is just a large coastal/ tropical biome

[dusky surge]

people really talk up update 2's map but frankly i just thought it was very bland

[half girder]

it was better than this tbh

this map just sucks currently

[dusky surge]

it was just kind of... lots of plains and sometimes trees and water

[half girder]

looked better visually too

[dusky surge]

not a fair comparison. We all know update 5 is just fucked visually

i still like new map aesthetically to old map

[half girder]

not fair? lmao

[dusky surge]

update 4's map looks way cooler than update 2's

[half girder]

update 4 was also shit

the oasis completely fucked the game

[dusky surge]

looked good tho

utterly garbage for the game but it was kinda sick looking

[half girder]

it was

would be kool if sw nesting ground had one

it feels so damn scuffed

[placid reef]

would be cool if NG had anything

[dusky surge]

it'd be nice if the coastal nesting grounds had one water source lmao

[half girder]

exactly dude

[dusky surge]

the coastal nesting ground is so goddamn far from every and anything

[half girder]

do they think before implementing shit like this

[dusky surge]

nesting grounds are really cool conceptually but they need more resources

[placid reef]

died as hatchling ptera bc there was no water there in a 6 mile radius

[half girder]

that’s a skill issue

[placid reef]

they are allso kinda weird, some are very hilly which is kinda weird for a nesting ground

[dusky surge]

i do wonder what Jace's big thing is

[placid reef]

and some look more like what coasts should actually look like everywhere

[half girder]

more glitched water spots

[placid reef]

man imagine its a whole map rework or some shit like that

[dusky surge]

nesting grounds had barely the same amount of skill and care put into them as the other new areas, makes me think he was probably working on something bigger

cant wait to see it

[half girder]

the map size thier going with all while being unable to optimize 25% of it with just 100 people

yiiiikee

[dusky surge]

what

[half girder]

i can’t heckin wait for the smaller map

[dusky surge]

i honestly don't know how to feel about a smaller map

i like larger areas to explore

rather than a smaller pvp arena design

[half girder]

i like performance and good ping

[dusky surge]

that doesn't come from a smaller map lmaoo

[half girder]

thenyaw size

smaller map less players

[dusky surge]

what

[half girder]

i mean still prob 100

[dusky surge]

they aren't going to reduce playercount

[half girder]

but on a bigger map the cap will have to be increased

[dusky surge]

i would prefer that if they could improve servers

[half girder]

hopefully instead of using auto generate for most things they go through the map like the pot devs did

tweaked things and make them look clean

[dusky surge]

and yet PoT's map is fucking barren and forces you to go places through quests lmao

i much prefer EVRIMA's map aesthetically tbh

[half girder]

i know but the map is actually done well

[placid reef]

well.... Evrima aint that much better on the barren side of things

[half girder]

quests n all that shit aside

[dusky surge]

I honestly would love a new map because I wanna explore shit more

[half girder]

coming 2040

[dusky surge]

I like EVRIMA because it's more satisfying to explore imho

[dusky surge]

cringe meme

[half girder]

it’s not

it’s not a meme

[dusky surge]

it is lmao

"update long lmao" is so overdone its sad

we've seen updates pushed out VERY fast when nothing is fucking the devs up

[half girder]

this is just the beginning

no dino all year

[dusky surge]

i remember they confirmed troo this year

[half girder]

i’m hearing a lot of stuff about that

people saying next year this year in oct, like bro

[dusky surge]

hey man, they delivered on humans within the year last year so

we'll see

[half girder]

i mean.. meh

[dusky surge]

plus troodon is mostly complete

[half girder]

it is done

they can throw in stego why not troodon

[dusky surge]

i mean it aint got its mechanics done but its basically aesthetically complete

no NV, no venom and no mimicry yet iirc

so obv troo can't be dropped just yet

[half girder]

is it confirmed to even have mimic

[dusky surge]

it is confirmed

also stego is far less mechanically complex than troo

[half girder]

even if i hear anything in the game now im still gonna go to the sounds lol

pvp is what i desire

troodon does look kool, like snake ish

[dusky surge]

i think its meant to be essentially the snake of the isle

[half girder]

i can’t wait to play it

[dusky surge]

with added flavour

probs gonna be pretty garbo on its own but idc because im gonna be playing it with mates

[half girder]

i hope they bring back legacy’s like distant calls kind of sfx or whatever it’s called

i played recently and it was scary asf

[dusky surge]

once troodon comes out its going to have the best calls in the game too so thats cool

[half girder]

yeah

[analog mirage]

Troodon bad on its own only gonna kill babies and Juvies on its own

[dusky surge]

1 and 4 calls on troodon are unmatched

[dusky surge]

good

[half girder]

shouldn’t be killing big things tbh

only smalls really

[dusky surge]

honestly with perks i'd give troodon the ability to become an egg stealer. Really drive the goblin gameplay down

[analog mirage]

I feel like Troodon will become worse over time as more playables come in it’ll be hard to find big packs of troodon

[dusky surge]

i reckon biggest should be shit like tenonto or stuff its designed to fight

[placid reef]

unironically better egg stealer than ovi

[half girder]

bob nest raider

[dusky surge]

bob perks ew

i'm so excited for a nocturnal animal i just like playing stealthy goblins

[analog mirage]

Same

Honestly why doesn’t Ovi have mimicry. Fits it much better than Troodon

[dusky surge]

I really like it on Troodon tho

[placid reef]

but its fits the egg stealer better

[analog mirage]

It’s fine on troodon. But it really should go to Ovi too

[half girder]

facts

not both

[dusky surge]

I literally do not know how it will work any better for ovi

Troodon can use it to lure dipshits into forests and poison the shit out of them

[half girder]

ovi will be troll dino

[placid reef]

Ovi is supposed to steal eggs, and mimicry is the tool to get close to eggs

without it what sane dino will even care, it'd just stay there bc ovi isnt scary

[dusky surge]

ovi will probs be fun. I'd give it shit like the ability to climb, save itself from long falls, do huge hypsi-esque leaps and sniff out nests from ages away. Any nest it can smell, it can reach

[analog mirage]

Yeah Ovi should have a fall damage resistance

[dusky surge]

pteras be damned im coming for your shit

[placid reef]

they said Herra will go for ptera too

[half girder]

as pter id prob nest on top of high ground

like one of the pillars at sw

[dusky surge]

which is why i want ovi climb

[analog mirage]

Ehhh Ovi doesn’t really seem like a climber

[dusky surge]

i want those hypsi eggs

[analog mirage]

Just let Herrera do that and kill nesting pteras

[dusky surge]

and if i have to climb to get them i will

[half girder]

i don’t think it’ll have the stam lol

the pillar is massive..

[dusky surge]

its also got spots to rest on the way up iirc

[half girder]

not on the pillars

[half girder]

yes