balance-feedback-discussion

[primal cloak]

Ok, @slim dragon

@unborn iris Devs said anyway its not a simulator, tho we all would like to be as realistically as possible, all the features we’ve seen animals have in real world

@slim dragon …chill ok?

Don’t eat grass, smoke it 🙂

[slim dragon]

If you weren't reading my lines with an angry voice I wouldn't seem as angry to you

[obtuse bison]

@violet basin Love the idea and i really wanna see that in evrima, Stegos are so op that 4 of them killed a group of 12 fully grown deinos.

[golden coral]

That has got to be the worst deinos ever if they somehow managed to not win a fight like that (not even killing a single stego? Or did they all fight on land far from water?) but also fail to see how it was going and react accordingly to it during the fight.

[fresh laurel]

Utah really does a bad job at that...

[obtuse bison]

They camped water

2 on both sides with there tails constantly waking and hitting us.( Stegos kill a fully grown deino with 3 wacks a fully grown deino can kill a fully grown stego with 8 bites.)

[golden coral]

Then the deinos were even worse players. Sorry, but that's entirely on the deinos being dumber than the rocks in the river. And no, it does not. It takes 5 headshots for a stego to kill a deino. More for the body. And it takes 6 headshots + any bite that does damage to kill a stego for a deino.

If you had an actual army of deinos and you still lost to the stegos, especially if they stood like that and put themselves in a vunerable position, then that comes down to you making rather questionable decisions. And if you could not fight them, why not just swim up/down river, try and force movement and so on. You certainly could have taken a whack or two and "run the gauntlet" as it were.

[obtuse bison]

we tryed that and they followed us.

[golden coral]

What river were you at then, if you had no way out, and somehow let them all "hunt" you down?

[obtuse bison]

We was at stego water falls.

[hollow canyon]

both of those values are wrong

and yea that's some awful Deino gameplay there if you're dying in such large numbers

[golden coral]

I'm not sure where that is, is it up NW, at the "cuddle rock" area?

[hollow canyon]

2 good Deinos can clap a Stego relatively reliably, you most likely won't kill it because it will just run away though

[obtuse bison]

Its up NW.

[golden coral]

In any case, even up there, you can swim upriver and get to the end of the river, which is a better spot if you need to "escape". Especially since the end there is rather tricky terrain if I recall correctly. So yeah, I'm.. I have no idea how you let those stegos somehow get you when you can swim in the river, at the bottom, and so on.

[hollow canyon]

The number of hits to kill will vary for both animals because of the locational damage but there's no scenario in which a Stego is killing a fully grown Deino with three attacks

[golden coral]

But with those numbers, you could have just swarmed the stegos I'm pretty sure..

So yeah, I'm sorry but I can't really see this being anything but your own poor decisions and I guess really good decisions on part of the stegos

[obtuse bison]

Its prob cas i started playing evirma yesterday, I am just a bad deino.

and the reason why we all died is cas we was being scardy cats lmao.

[hollow canyon]

Yea that's most likely why you just have to kind of learn how to play it, I'd suggest to try some practice servers

[obtuse bison]

Nobody wanted to attack

[hollow canyon]

that's typically how it goes

especially with Deinos

[obtuse bison]

I am good at combat just not confidence.

[hollow canyon]

If you hesitate you WILL die

[obtuse bison]

Dont wanna attack cas i am scared ill die and waste 6 hours.

[hollow canyon]

if you're going for a kill on Stego you go in and kill it, you have to kind of go all in and know what you're doing

[hollow canyon]

understandable

I still remember back on update 3.5 seeing two Deinos thinking about going for a Stego that was sitting on the shore and talking about how to kill it, I just swam up to it and killed it while they were having that debate

to be perfectly honest though

1v1 you WILL lose it vast majority of the time on the current patch

[golden coral]

And this, is the main issue I would say. If you're fighting something like a stego, as deino, where you can't use your main grab mechanic, you need to commit, and you need to risk it. It is a dangerous opponent, and not one you're suited to hunt at all, so it takes a bit more than the usual lunge and drown. And it's fair if you're new, you'll learn. But as both me and Aken stated, the numbers turns in your favour when you have two deinos vs one stego, and if you have three vs one stego, you should be able to just overpower it.

[hollow canyon]

unfortunately since the time I was killing Stegos as a Deino Deino got its land speed nerfed to the ground and it's harder to actually keep up the pressure on Stego during the fight now

[golden coral]

But the "scaredy cat" as well as the difference in how you have to approach a stego vs anything else, is why most deinos don't do so well. It's scary, more so when you're suddenly have to fight "properly" instead of drown stuff, and the thing you're up against can fight back just fine. But it is doable, trust me, you just need the right approach and preferably a partner (solo deino does struggle hard, I do not recommend messing with stegos, just dive and take your leave)

[hasty coyote]

At least what I used to do was go in first, lunge and run for the head. Then land some alt bites and leave whenever my hp got low, then another deino can continue when I back off. However, there are better ways to do this, and you need to back off if the stego backs off

[azure crescent]

fun fact if you dont want to die you can just swim away

[tranquil pawn]

[frail bobcat]

Smort

[trail hedge]

I just come to terms with the impermanence of my dino life and once the opportunity arises I aim to die in the most comedic fashion possible

[jagged mauve]

haha

or you're like me, and you watch all the carnage below you from the skies XD

[azure hinge]

@alpine nest and @slim dragon hey just curious what you two dislike what I said about deino, or if you just think they are perfectly balanced right now and would want them to just not have much interactions with other dinos besides waiting to see if anyone ever comes to the water?

btw im a staunch supporter of utah buffs massively honestly even beyond just pounce fix, they just seem so useless and boring

[azure hinge]

and that goes for anyone id like to know what people think about deino and its lack of interaction

[slim dragon]

I don't like the idea of it gaining damage resistance when in water, it makes no sense.

Also, the idea of deino going more on land is a big no for me

[frail bobcat]

A damage resistance is just a bad idea it already has bleed resistance

@slender kettle why do so many people not realize that utah is a A-Tier when its pounce is fixed. It has good stam, a attack with insane bleed, very good stam heal and a fast sprint. Does it need more?

[slim dragon]

@twin oar One pounce from a utah and pachy is as good as dead. Here's your balance.

[twin oar]

Not true though is it, i've survived a Utah pounce as Pachy

[slim dragon]

It happens rarely

And utah has the advantage of controlling the engagement against a pachy, so it only makes sense that pachy has an advantage in combat

[twin oar]

Not always true though, if you're in need of food & all you can find is a Pachy.

[frail bobcat]

And a utah should be punished badly for getting hit

[twin oar]

1 hit = dead?

1 lucky alt attack knocks you down, then an instant no run up ram fractures you. Then you can't run away & die.

Yeah sounds like bullshit balancing xD

[frail bobcat]

No, a lying down utah nearly always gets a body fracture which lets you live and you continue the fight to some extent

[twin oar]

nearly always, not in my experience

[frail bobcat]

Then the pachy is good

But a utah isnt meant to be hit anyways

[twin oar]

Utah has to dance around finessing a Pachy into wasting stamina, whilst Pachy just hits you once & you good as dead.

[twin oar]

Good at standing over your stunned dino & pressing RMB?

[frail bobcat]

No it has to time the hit to get a leg fracture

[twin oar]

you're stunned lying on the floor, ofcourse theres plenty time

[frail bobcat]

A utah has a high skill floor but if you master it then you wont get hit

[twin oar]

I've killed more Pachys than i've died to, but dying to RNG or just 1 lucky hit is bullshit balancing.

[frail bobcat]

Im not a good utah btw. But its always my fault when I die or ping

[minor condor]

I personally think the alt shouldn’t knock Utah down or Utah shouldn’t take 10 seconds to get up. Pachy is strong for sure but balancing is needed.

[tall bronze]

I mean Pachy is supposed to be risky for a single Utah to take on. The pounce (when it works) can actually be very bad for the Pachy I believe.

[rotund sparrow]

Can a alt hit from a pach cancel a utah pounce? Never happened to me but I'm curious if anyone knows

[frail bobcat]

Yes

[rotund sparrow]

Ah, thank you

[hasty coyote]

@twin oar I understand the fight is heavily pachy sided, but its not as bad as you say it is.
Pachy should have the advantage since it is slower, takes longer to grow, and has attacks that work well against utahs. In pachy v utah: a 1v1 is pachy sided but a utah can still win. A 1v2 is utah sided but the pachy can still win. A 1v3 is generally a death sentence for the pachy unless there is a skill issue or abuseable terrain.
If pachy hits you, its either doing a LOT of damage or a fracture. A leg fracture generally means death, which I agree is kinda unfair, but is necessary. However, unless it gets a leg break, the utah can always just run off and heal.
Utah on the other hand, just needs to land a single pounce to completely screw over a pachy. The pachy has 2 options: stay still and be an easy target, or try to run and fight off the utahs but make bleed MUCH worse. A single bucked pounce does like 1/3 to 1/2 of pachy's bleed, and a double pounce is just instant death.

Generally, utahs should not try to 1v1 pachies unless they are desperate or confident. You should generally have more numbers or good cover to fight them. However, a pack of utahs can overwhelm pachies easily. If a pachy knocks down a utah, a second can pounce it while it positions to ram or alt attack. A missed ram can also be a great opportunity to pounce if you have the right position.

[rotund sparrow]

I like both Pachy and Utah, they're both pretty fun in fights

[frail bobcat]

It is a cool matchup

[rotund sparrow]

Mhm

[hasty coyote]

So yes, a single mistake can ruin a fight, but at least with pachies you have a much higher chance to actually survive compared to other dinos like teno and stego.

[rotund sparrow]

Tbh currently it's another pachy that always ends up messing me up before any utah

[frail bobcat]

This is why I heavily train utah vs pachy matchups, to kill pachys if I have to

[twin oar]

I've killed more Pachys than I've died to as Utah. 1 lucky hit or just RNG shouldnt be a death sentence.

1 pounce doesn't kill a Pachy, 1 lucky hit on a Utah does effectively kill it.

Terrible balance.

[rotund sparrow]

My own friends.. break my legs

[old blaze]

That's a valid point but pachy's alt attack which is as fast as any bite is basicly a "one shot" (following a fracture and a death sentence)

[frail bobcat]

Its not a lucky hit, its a mistake from your side. A utah does not get hit unless IT does something wrong

[rotund sparrow]

I feel bad for utah

[frail bobcat]

But the is less punishing if he misses in the new update anyway, so that will be interesting

[rotund sparrow]

Definitely has a high skill ceiling though

[hasty coyote]

I'd say it is pretty good for the most part. Pachy can not run, so it has to have the advantage in a fight, its fight or flight balancing.
1 pachy hit takes utah out the fight and forces it to retreat. 1 utah pounce forces pachy into a lose-lose situation that will generally cause its death.

However, I can agree that they could make a knocked down utah not get leg broken, since it feels kinda scummy.

[frail bobcat]

A body break is enough

[rotund sparrow]

A utah is usually out of the fight if it get knocked down

[hasty coyote]

its not a death sentence unless its a leg fracture, which I agree is a bit too harsh.
Also, alt attacks cost a good amount of stamina, so if you bait a pachy to use a few of them, then it will eventually start being much more cautious about using them and providing more openings for you.

[frail bobcat]

I have that problem as a pachy

[twin oar]

Have you seen some of the hitbox & sync fuck up videos online? It can 100% & definitely be a lucky hit haha

[frail bobcat]

Its weird that you get knocked down by tail hits

[hasty coyote]

I play pachy and have not mastered the fight, so I know the average pachy mentality in these fights. I also know what the utah can and should do in these fights from the ones I have seen and lsot.

[azure hinge]

@frail bobcat I mean it's a way to stop deinos from being camped on water banks where it should have the advantage.

[twin oar]

Yes I know, I've killed many Pachys. Still bullshit RNG if you get a leg fracture.

[azure hinge]

@slim dragon and that's the whole point there is no water interaction if you don't want land gators then you should want the interaction fixed there only thing that would make them stronger on land would be the water drain which isn't really a buff I mean it just makes no sense how low it is. You should be in favor of every other dino having deceased water sustain, because there is almost 0 interactions with the deino and other dinos, partly because of bugged spots.

[hasty coyote]

Its not RNG at all. Its positional. I know exactly where to hit to get a leg break 90% of the time on a knocked down utah. The only "RNG" is the occasional janky hitbox or desync, which doesnt happen often on a knocked down utah. However, I can point out many times where my ram hits on my side, but the utah doesnt take damage because it was moving.

[azure hinge]

And plus land gators can never be a thing they are too slow

[hasty coyote]

I don't think you can get knocked down from a tail, its mostly lag that makes it look like a tail hit on your side, but a body hit for the pachy.

[frail bobcat]

I get knocked down by tailhits (is seems like it) like 50% of the time, so this is weird. Another reason is a failed pounce but that wont happen as often anymore

[twin oar]

Ok so it's fair to get a 1 button win Vs a Dino with same weight & growth time?

Aslong as it's all skill based

[frail bobcat]

It takes longer to grow and is 50kg heavier

[twin oar]

Barely any difference then 😂

[frail bobcat]

Yes. A animal that takes longer to grow should have the advantage

[twin oar]

The advantage is a 1button pretty much instant kill?

You guys love playing Pachy, that's obviously. Don't agree at all though.

[frail bobcat]

I am maining utah and its kinda sad that you take the "you main that animal" argument

[twin oar]

How is it sad? It's the most common scenario on this discord.

The fact you think Pachy with its 10 minute longer grow time & 5% extra weight deserves a 1 button win Vs Utah would lead me to believe you probably have a soft spot for Pachy.

[frail bobcat]

In my opionion should the pachy only be able to do body fractures, because the utah survives that and still give the pachy a good advantage

[frail bobcat]

Im not saying 1 button win and im repeating that I am maining utah and ptera

I want utah to be in the spot where it belongs

So I want that for every other playable

[old blaze]

Just curious, do you think utah is in a good spot rn compared to rest of the roster?

[azure hinge]

No Utah is like a rat only good at running on to things others can't

And I don't even play Utah and that's my opinion

[dim haven]

How does that help Pachy defend against carnos?

[frail bobcat]

Oh sorry i forgot to add "when it knocked it down". Chomped a few words there lol

[dim haven]

Ah so basically you think Pachy shouldn’t be able to do leg fractures to Utah

[frail bobcat]

Not when they are knocked down

[dim haven]

I agree then

[frail bobcat]

Everything else, yes

[frail bobcat]

Ok

[dim haven]

Makes sense because being able to break utahs legs when it’s knocked down kinda allows pachys to be overly aggressive when it’s not supposed to be like that

[frail bobcat]

Utah is still the one hunting

[minor condor]

I think pachy shouldn’t be able to fracture legs when the Utah falls because the angle of the Utah when fallen shouldn’t even be hit because when pachy uses rmb headbutt it’s head is still above utah

[livid spindle]

Sometimes pachy's attack with alt will make utah fall down again when he stands up, which also means that utah may die in Pachy's first attack.

[hollow canyon]

It is supposed to be like that though

I mean I'm not a fan of how Pachy works in general, it's just a really toxic playable by its design imo but it is what it is

Pachy can't be all that aggressive against you as it uses stamina for its attacks while having the same stamina pool as Utah and being slower

[hollow canyon]

@twin oar I don't see how that's a realism vs balance argument. Pachy mauls Utah for balance reasons, realistically it would most likely just get murdered.

[half girder]

pbrookes that’s a skill issue sadly, why are you 1v1ing something that exists to completely counter you?

maybe have a pack mate and bait things out? pachy uses lots of stamina and you have to abuse that. plus one buck pounce and the pachy is already down 50% bleed, if it stands still maybe learn to bait and attack, easier said then done with how servers are but ya gotta try things, plus utah is the easiest thing to grow

[hollow canyon]

I kind of have to say that it's getting rather tiresome to hear that every animal in the game exists to completely counter Utah. I think that's a fair assessment of maybe Carno and Deino(especially the latter one). But saying that about Pachy or Tenonto is just bizarre.

[hasty coyote]

(sorry for late reply, had to do stuff)
I'm not considering leg breaks, because I can completely agree with not allowing leg breaks while they are knocked down, but getting a leg break on a running utah is very difficult.

Both Pachy and utah are basically glass cannons, they deal some insane damage but have very low hp. So their fights are generally based on who hits their ability first.
Breaks should be an easy win-button because they are non-lethal. So the utah can lose the fight, heal back up, and then come back to fight or find something else to hunt. However, killing is much more difficult since the pachy can't just come back after it loses the fight.
Plus, as I said before, Pachy can't run from the fight while utah can always decide to not fight or leave. So, pachy needs to have the advantage in the fight.

[primal heart]

That may happen in 1v1 fight，but if we got more pachy，Uthas can never survive，pachy is able to protect partner and Utha ...

This a common phenomenon, they give single herb a higher ability to survive, ignoring the fact that herb group have a higher ability to chace and done a kill.Better choice for carnivores is not to start fight，then Carnivores have lost their meaning

[dusky surge]

Over 80% of all real life carnivore hunts end in failure. Sometimes, you need to know when a fight isn’t worth taking as a carnivore.

[hollow canyon]

yea idk about that, they might end in failure but it isn't because the carnivore died during the hunt but more so it ran out of steam

[primal heart]

Indeed in failure,but not death.
But I do think so, the hunting success rate of this game is a little too high

[dusky surge]

Also I think they’re nerfing pachy’s damage in U5

[hollow canyon]

Yea I think it got slightly nerfed although I'm not entirely sure

I vaguely recall something like that being in the patch notes or what not

although I doubt it will have major impact on this match up

[primal heart]

loktarogar

[livid spindle]

Because of this, the relationship of carno's teno tends to be normal, teno is stronger, but carno always tries, because if unsuccessful, carno can escape, and fracture often means that predators will be killed by pachy, and pachy may also sneak up on those predators. I think pachy will improve this if he really reduces his attack power, which means that killing a carno completely will require more attacks and face greater risks.

[primal heart]

Agree.Pachy need to take more rask to kill another animal,(is's too deadly in Update4),and better run away from Carno,and Carno definitely shouldn't attack Pachy when other threats nearby.

A single charge-hit do almost as much damage as utah can do with all stamina.

[frail bobcat]

A non bucked pounce does more

[azure crescent]

it only ends in death in this game because carnivore players dont know when to back out

[azure crescent]

because utah's pounce is not made for damage lmao

also where did you see that carno could ram things 1.5 times its own weight

cause something tells me that that's not real

also @twin oar pachy is made to counter utah lmao of course its gonna be hard

(still not even that hard though)

[twin oar]

Yeah it's not hard to kill Pachy as Utah, I never said it was. I just think it's bullshit balancing that 1 lucky hit or potential mistake can be a death sentence for a Utah.

[azure crescent]

i think that's more on utah's side than pachy's side

[twin oar]

& like someone said higher up, everything seems to be a "counter" to Utah on this discord

[twin oar]

But 1 hit being a death sentence, come on bro...

[azure crescent]

it's what happens when you put a small game hunter in a roster full of small dinos haha

unironically worst choice for carnivore

that devs could've made

[twin oar]

This is why I'm saying realism Vs balanced gameplay. Balance the roster we've got now around what's playable currently. Not what will be playable in 2 years time.

[primal heart]

We may need more species
The fewer species playable, the more polarized the balance becomes.
Maybe the balance will be more dynamic when playables are added faster

[primal heart]

Carno can charge through animal that 1.5time it's weight,and will hurt themselve if target is heavier.

[azure crescent]

i asked where you learned that lmao

cause carno couldn't even ram things its own size iirc, let alone larger

carno would break its neck if it charged like it does in TI

[primal heart]

Er...are we talking about gameplay or what？

In game it just could

[azure crescent]

ohhhhh you're talking about in game lol

how did you find out carno could ram things up to 2.7 tons

@primal heart

sounds like a lot of testing to me

anyways on your main point, carno isnt even supposed to take things larger than it, while pachy is

if anything both should share the limit, being either 2 tons for both or 2.7 tons for both

[primal heart]

Maybe Experience？

[azure crescent]

^

[primal heart]

I actually means pachy will be able to fracture animal too bigger than it(in current data),like allos,and I don't think pachy should be able to do so.

[azure crescent]

why?

allo is over 3 tons so it can't even do it without the nerf you suggested

[dusky surge]

if it doesn't STUN the allo, wouldn't the pachy basically be running directly into the jaws of death

also allo is like 2.7 tons

[azure crescent]

exactly my idea

[primal heart]

I think allo will be slower,so pachy could just run away from it...
By the way,are you Truely think pachy should against allo？

It's just 500kg

[azure crescent]

no, i'm just suggesting that carno and pachy should share the same threshold

[obtuse ocean]

allo will destroy pachy if it attacks it for sure : P

[azure crescent]

yes

if you're going to reduce pachy's ram threshold then reduce carno's to be below 2.7t too

a carno also shouldn't charge an allo

[primal heart]

I think it's ok to charge and do damage,but should not cause fracture,than pachy or carno COULD choose to attack allo but allo will win.

[azure crescent]

i'm genuinely so confused on what your point is

do you want to reduce the threshold or no?

i'm talking both for pachy and carno

[primal heart]

Pachycephalus is so strong because every time it makes an effective attack, its opponent may break bone and have trouble escaping subsequent attacks,so I think do not reduce the threshold of attack,but reduce the threshold of fracture.

Pachy does no damage against animal over 3t

[azure crescent]

so it should do damage to 3t+ animal, but no fracture?

[primal heart]

Yes

[azure crescent]

what about carno's threshold

[primal heart]

Since it has no fracture capacity, I don't care

[azure crescent]

i agree with you

[primal heart]

[dusky surge]

i never even implied that

i said that a pachy fighting an allo would essentially be suicide

[livid spindle]

If carno hits a creature that is equal to itself or only a little heavier than itself, it will make it dizzy, but it will do almost no harm.

[eager ledge]

Still that amount of weight focused into a single pressure point ( aka it’s domed thick skull) smacking in to something would pretty much shatter anything it hits the leg of the allo would shatter do to the forces and pressure of the impact of the tip of the dome hitting it

[hot bluff]

Is this Carno buggy? He stops and gives you 10x bites in the same place

[primal heart]

Indeed,but in game it's hard to accept that 1.8t animal can be easily slow down by a simple hit，I mean , animal can't just stand there and let you find the most valuable point to hit.

And allo is bigger

[eager ledge]

Focusing 500kg into on single pressure point is op in real life dude just be glad it only slows down carno with one hit in game instead of out right 2 shoting it to death in the game

[eager ledge]

You basically getting hit with something similar to slightly weaker cannon ball shot

[slim dragon]

If the game was realistic most species would one-shot each other
And they would also probably die when they use their special abilities

[eager ledge]

That is why I say just be glad it only slows the carno down

[slim dragon]

Yeah I was adding to your statement

[eager ledge]

Ok

[eager ledge]

Animals are freakishly op it’s crazy how strong some of them are irl

[primal heart]

I'm more convinced that pachy evolved to compete for female mating rights. They COULD objectively use their head to attack predators, but they wouldn't do it because their only instinct was to run.

The player's control takes the herbivores out of their instinct and pushes them 100 percent to their physical limits.
So they seemed so powerful that they were no longer suitable prey.
This is a point that most eco-gamers and pure gamers have been debating.

Ecological players want herbivores to have physical strength while reducing their ability to kill larger carnivores, and all animals should pay some price for behavior that is not in line with their ecology.

Pure gamers, on the other hand, want their animals to be faster and stronger (after all, no one wants to die and everyone likes to beat others).

[livid spindle]

Although pachy's combat effectiveness is extremely unscientific at present, it may not be suitable to weaken it too much as far as the current balance is concerned. If a carno can easily deal with 4~5 pachy, no one will choose pachy, but there is a problem that herbivores kill herbivores too easily, because their attack power is too strong.

[primal heart]

This is where we need to figure out. whether the game is more about authenticity or more about the fun of the player

[final epoch]

Your game SUCKS

[dusky surge]

I feel like you underestimate how violent herbivores can be

[dusky surge]

also lmao

[final epoch]

lol

[slim dragon]

It's 100% more about player fun

[livid spindle]

In fact, most of you overestimate it.

[slim dragon]

Nothing in the game is authentic
Animals are genetically modified
They allegedly break the laws of physics where necessary
Gameplay matters over realism.

[dusky surge]

Cows kill more people per year than many carnivores lmao

Hippos, a herbivore, are classified as THE MOST dangerous land animal

[livid spindle]

Mosquitoes kill more people than most animals.

[dusky surge]

Cool but we aren't getting playable mosquitos so I don't know why we're bringing them up

[slim dragon]

Mosquitoes aren't herbivores either
Well males are but it's not males who kill people

[primal heart]

Oh man,Today's virtual cricket fight begins

[livid spindle]

There is no point in comparing the number of killings.

[final epoch]

Isle is the worst game ever
1- the graphics sucks , my ps2 do better then this
2- bad gameplay ,
3- op dinosaurs
4- carno is op af

[slim dragon]

You're the one who started it

[dusky surge]

cool

[slim dragon]

Thanks for your opinion

[primal heart]

I'm talking about game play

[final epoch]

I’m kidding lol , your game is soo good ,keep up the good work !.

[dusky surge]

epic

[lean atlas]

and justfaisal the worst deino or the best idk

[dusky surge]

what

[livid spindle]

It's just that usually herbivores can't beat predators bigger than themselves.

But for the sake of gameplay, no one will play the role that can only be eaten by others.

[final epoch]

My Stupid friend is Indian, he doesn’t know English that well , he’s saying he’s the best deino player ever @lean atlas

[lean atlas]

your dad from qasim

[slim dragon]

I don't think you two are in the right channel for this

[lean atlas]

sorry

[livid spindle]

I don't understand.

[slim dragon]

#isle-discussion is the place you're looking for

[primal heart]

In realistic yes.But in game they better have ability to do so.

[final epoch]

Racist af !!! Respect this server pls

[primal heart]

[final epoch]

😀

[livid spindle]

Carno shouldn't have too much fighting power, but we need a dinosaur with such ability, but it will be more difficult for it to catch up with those herbivores.

[primal heart]

I agree.carno should focus on little animal

Then...where's our Bigger,Stronger beast？

[livid spindle]

Now it's more because of boredom. You can find a place with food and safety to live alone, but usually people choose to fight. People usually just need a goal. I think if I can count my living time and some other data after death, I might try my best to make this data look better.

[dusky surge]

cerato is neither bigger nor stronger as a beast

[livid spindle]

Cerato can compete with carno, so that the quantity of carno is not so large.

[dusky surge]

cerato will probably be destroyed by a carno in the carno's natural habitat

[livid spindle]

What we need is checks and balances among various species, otherwise most people will only play with one of them.

[primal heart]

My mistake

[livid spindle]

Carno is bigger and faster than UT, and many people have no reason to choose UT over Carno.

[dusky surge]

Utahraptor has it's benefits, the worst part about it is the bugs

[livid spindle]

But you need friends.

But if you can have five carno friends, isn't it more powerful than five utah friends?

[primal heart]

Yes bug sucks

[dusky surge]

In certain scenarios, yes

5 carno friends are also harder to feed

[slim dragon]

More powerful, yes
But everything isn't about power

1 carno will most likely win against 1 utah
2 carnos will win against 2 utahs
15 carnos will still win against 15 utahs
But that doesn't mean rex will be the only viable animal in the game just because it can beat almost everything else in equal numbers

[dusky surge]

no obviously bigger = better

[slim dragon]

utah needs to eat grass and die

[obtuse ocean]

I just hope they make sure herbis cant be in big groups, cus that gonna make you have big packs. 3+ rexes. When shants/trikes comes to even go after a herd. That will also result you suddently need 15 carnos in a pack to even try etc

[slim dragon]

Or maybe find other strategies instead of rushing in the middle of a big herd ?
How do you think predators irl manage to kill herding animals ?

[dreamy fiber]

Usually nothing can beat something bigger than itself in a raw fight with very few exceptions, but that's not because they can't. It's about attitude.

More animals will run at the first hint of danger or will run from threat of injury. Not many animals are willing to throw themselves at a bigger threat because it just not smart to do. But that honestly does not mean that they cant win. Its just reflective of the more common survival strategies

[obtuse ocean]

we are not talking about real life here, but if your rex fighting a trike in game. A pachy gonna one shot you after that fight

[slim dragon]

You don't get the point
Even is the game is not real life, some rules still applies
First one being that you need to be smart to take down prey

A rex should staight-out lose to a trike when fighting it head-on

[obtuse ocean]

exactly , and you will not go after big herds, Even if you kill something. You gonna die after the fight

Cus some of the herbs will simply dont let you heal

[slim dragon]

That's what ambush is for
It's not not have to waste your health fighting

[primal heart]

Utha have it's own fun,they get sense of achievement by work together,that's why many player still use utha,but what about dryo？they can't even find some friends

[obtuse ocean]

Even if you get suprise attack on a trike whatever, rest of the herd will still zerg you after.

[primal heart]

Cause being killed is not fun

[obtuse ocean]

If you get suprise attack on a trike, it still gonna hurt

[slim dragon]

It's also how pack tactics (should) work
It's not about mobbing a single target and out-damaging them
It's about forcing them to put themselves at a disadvantage so you can kill them at a reduced risk

[livid spindle]

But there will be a situation in the game, or it has already appeared: pachy and carno attack teno together, or a group of pachy kills any animals they find that can be killed, including Pachy who doesn't belong to their team.

[slim dragon]

That is another, unrelated problem

[livid spindle]

Dryo only needs a little attribute buff. I don't understand. It should be a very simple thing, but they are unwilling to do it.

[slim dragon]

It doesn't need an attribute buff ?
It needs a reason for people to play it

Dryo isn't unviable, it's just boring

[livid spindle]

The newborn dryo is slow, not as fast as the baby stego. After 30 minutes, you get a creature with a bite force of only 10, which is as fast as Utah.

[obtuse ocean]

lol yea ? we all know that. Its humans playing with brain. They are not reacting how real herbis do lol. But your not gonna after a herd as rex if they can be in huge groups. And then suddently you need 3+ rexes to go after that. And 15+ carnos. That was the point.

[slim dragon]

I don't see how the biteforce of dryo matters

[primal heart]

How about let herbs invite ai units？Taking them out of the woods and showing them off might be another way to have fun.Maybe more players will choose small herbivores？

[livid spindle]

Dryo's infancy is just like pachy before. pachy has been fixed, but dryo hasn't.

[slim dragon]

I've used that kind of tactic and outsmarted many players in different game situations, humans are as much prone to making errors as animals

[obtuse ocean]

your not outsmarting anyone by going after a trike and killing it, then die from all the people attacking you after the fight.

[slim dragon]

Not sure about that and I don't know how it would even make things more interesting
Even is AIs are following you, they're still AIs

[slim dragon]

No
But I didn't say this was the way to go

[obtuse ocean]

Well that will happend if they are in big groups

[primal heart]

Well, maybe you're a player who only likes confrontational games

[dreamy fiber]

No, dryo is absolutely unviable. It's supposed to be evasive and skittish but if you're spotted by a utah you are so dead. You can't really outrun them and your dodge doesn't work in a very good or intuitive manner. Dryo needs it's burrows which would be amazing. It doesn't require a stay buff with burrows because that means your gameplay loop will revolve around making a burrow ad being close enough to safety that you oly need to get to your goal, not ru aimlessly.

[slim dragon]

Force your target to get away from the herd
Ensure you can get away without being killed after making you kill, either with a bite either to hide and come back later to eat it
The solution depends on the situation

[slim dragon]

Burrow yes
That'd be way better than a plain biteforce buff

[slim dragon]

That doesn't answer my question

[livid spindle]

Usually, more people play Hypsilophodon than dryo, but this is not because Hypsilophodon is stronger or faster. A creature needs its own unique ability, so that it can be selected by players.

[slim dragon]

How would it even work ? Would it be just Ais following you around ? Would they obey your orders ? Would they work like additional lives ?

[dreamy fiber]

It'll only be viable with its burrows, because as it stands its trash. Like complete and utter rubbish lol

Also you can't force your target away. That's a strategy that works with real animals, not with people

[slim dragon]

It worked with people quite consistently when I tried it tho

[dreamy fiber]

I think you might've been fighting dumb people lol
Its always an optimal strategy for herds to dog pile you.

Unless your group is bigger, of course

[slim dragon]

Well choosing to fight dumb people is a strategy

[dreamy fiber]

That requires being psychic

[slim dragon]

I cannot be the only psychic guy on earth

[livid spindle]

Now, the juvenile dryo needs a faster speed. Only when it is an adult can it barely escape some predators, and no one will like it. Besides, I can see from the video that young pachy can reach the speed of dryo in the stress test.

[dreamy fiber]

You may well be. You can't exactly know who's unskilled or dumb until you actually engage the fight and you certainly can't tell what everyone in the group is

[slim dragon]

I agree selecting your prey, forcing them to get away from their herd, then successfully beating them and killing them without allowing the others to intervene might be MUCH harder to do in the isle than in any other game, but it's still possible

For me, a good hunting experience should involve 80% observing your prey and 20% going for the kill

[primal heart]

Ai units will follow you, and a group of dryo must attract carnivores and you may can enjoy walking your dogs

[dreamy fiber]

Its not. That strategy I the real world requires animals to panic and run, breaking formation and leaving behind people. You can only make unskilled or amateur players panic and you have no way to know who they are.

[slim dragon]

Actually I've always only hid as a juvie dryo, so I can't tell if their speed is that bad
But it's not hard to grow one either

[primal heart]

Appreciate how funny they are when they go after you？

[dreamy fiber]

Anyone who actually knows what they're doing is considerably more likely to stand and fight because they know running is bad, which is only something that translates into animals until the point of panic and run

[livid spindle]

The newborn dryo can't catch up with the newborn stego.

[slim dragon]

My problem with having small dinos be able to attract AIs to their group is that it implies that there will be AIs the same species as players, but that you will still be able to differentiate them machanic-wise, which are two things I don't like

[dreamy fiber]

The closest you can do is to pick a distant target and try to do enough damage before you get attacked. Which means you can run and return later assuming it didn't happen at dam or nw

[slim dragon]

I didn't know that
So well ok, maybe it deserves better speed scaling
But I still say dryo doesn't need a massive buff to its stats, but rather new mechanics

[livid spindle]

They don't have time to make the new mechanism of dryo, but the buff property only needs a little time. I suggested it from the feasibility point of view.

[dusky surge]

why would i pick the herbivore which is already played by AI lmao

[livid spindle]

At first, the speed of newborn pachy was also slow. Later, they buffed the speed of newborn pachy, but dryo was forgotten.

[dreamy fiber]

That's also partly cause stego zooms when it gets moving

[slim dragon]

They have time
They're gonna have to work on burrows some day or the other

[dreamy fiber]

That's cuz they don't care about dryo. It would really be one of the coolest additions with the burrows but I guess they must've had significant issues with them

[livid spindle]

But before that, dryo almost didn't exist.

[primal heart]

So what's your idea to make small herbs more fun and attract player use it？

[dusky surge]

give them actually interesting mechanics, like hypsi's planned climbing ability?

[primal heart]

So...dryo will face Herrerasaurus？that sounds interesting

[dusky surge]

dryo???

[primal heart]

Wait hypsy have climbing ？

[dusky surge]

yes

[primal heart]

I only know charge jump

[dusky surge]

its intended to be arboreal

[primal heart]

Wow ,never use it to climb trees,I think I will try it next time

[dusky surge]

its not in yet

[rotund sparrow]

I hate deer ai as a juvi

[slim dragon]

@azure crescent thief

[azure crescent]

i can credit if you want

[slim dragon]

Nah dw x)
There are no owner's rights on suggestions

[mental roost]

The absolute cruel thievery is mind blowing

[hasty coyote]

@wispy valley I just have a small issue with your suggestion: your math is off.
The first point has 70% edible and 35% bones, that’s 105%

[wispy valley]

O shit thank you. Before I had it at 65% edible, which is why the new calc is off.

[hasty coyote]

All good lol

[hollow canyon]

It's funny how the last two feedbacks basically directly contradict one another.

"weight shouldn't determine all the things that weight WOULD realistically determine"

"well nah, it should determine all the things that it realistically would determine"

wild stuff

Then the best part is that some people actually upvoted both those suggestions

[mental roost]

The duality of man

[azure crescent]

that’s not what mine says

[hollow canyon]

You're saying that changing hp of a creature shouldn't change all of the things you listed there - newsflash - it doesn't

you can change a tonne of those without touching weight

[azure crescent]

it does currently, because changing the hp of a creature literally changes the weight too

and vice versa

[hollow canyon]

no, it literally doesn't

[azure crescent]

with the current weight=hp it does

[hollow canyon]

there are set values for most of those things that can be changed to make those interactions occur differently despite the weight remaining the same

so no, it quite literally doesn't

not that it matters because all of those things SHOULD be impacted by weight

just like HP should be impacted by it

[azure crescent]

i didn’t say they shouldn’t be impacted by weight, just that they shouldn’t be impacted by hp

[hollow canyon]

more massive animal = more hp = more food = harder to cc

[hollow canyon]

they should though

[azure crescent]

8 ton animal
8k hp
decides to buff hp and keep weight the same
cc and food values stay the same because weight stays the same

[hollow canyon]

all those things are brought back tot he same point of one animal being bigger and therefore:

1. yielding more food
2. being more difficult to CC
3. having a larger health pool

[hollow canyon]

there's 0 reason to keep weight the same if you buff hp

either both should be increased or neither should

[azure crescent]

the reason is resistance to fall damage, food amount, cc resistance and bonebreak resistance

[hollow canyon]

yes, all should be directly correlated as it is right now

the details of HOW that works can be changed

there's a number of different values that affect that

[azure crescent]

that’s what i’m trying to say

i may have worded it poorly but that’s what i’m trying to say

[hollow canyon]

that all of those should be determined by health and weight? I agree in that case

but that's not what your feedback implies

[azure crescent]

i’m getting confused lol

i should probably just go to sleep

[hollow canyon]

Idk what you can get confused about:

a larger animal yields more food, it's also harder to CC because of how massive it is and it is harder to break its bones, it also has relatively more blood so you need to take longer to bleed it out as it can afford to lose more blood before it keels over

all those values make absolute sense being directly correlated to one another

IF there's a need for some animal not to be impacted by bleed so much or if it has to be MORE impacted by that

then that can actually be arranged without tinkering with its blood

the same is the case for very many other things

[azure crescent]

i see

[hollow canyon]

there are other specific values and thresholds that determine that

such as stagger thresholds, knockdown thresholds and so on

and again as I stated - the next feedback basically directly contradicts yours but that hasn't stopped a few people from upvoting both which is just absolutely bizarre to me and makes me wonder whether people even read the things they upvote

[azure crescent]

most people really don’t lol

[wispy valley]

The post before mine listed what HP should not affect.

My post listed what WEIGHT should affect.

Two different things. I believe weight absolutely ahould tie into many combat-related things.

Weight = HP is what I am all for.

x/y=z where X is your weight, Y is target weight, Z is damage dealt is the system people do not like, and me either.

[azure crescent]

how would that system work? unless i’m doing things wrong a carno would do 3.6 dmg to a pachy

or i’m not understanding at all and i’m bad at math

[hollow canyon]

old legacy weight system

in that case we wouldn't have irl weights of dinosaurs because apexes would be absolutely and completely immortal

even in legacy their weights were severely decreased

[zealous citrus]

14 ton shant

[hollow canyon]

Rex was 5800kg only because at its real weight it could basically ignore the attacks of the mid tiers

yea Shant would be completely untouchable

[wispy valley]

Our old system calculated damage by your damage times your weight, divided by your target weight.

So say you did 300 damage and weigh 2 tons. You bite something that weighs one ton. You do 300(2000/1000) which is 300(2) which is 600 damage.

With this new system, regardless of weight, you now do 300 damage to the smaller animal. Weight = health and nothing more.

[hollow canyon]

^

Exactly

[azure crescent]

ahhh i see

current one for dmg is good

[hollow canyon]

Although I personally very much like the old system and I'd rather have that back and have the values changed from the irl values

[wispy valley]

I do say the weight mechanic should affect fracture damage. A pachy hitting a dryo would do much more fracture damage than a pachy hitting a Rex

Either that or give bones their own HP values and at certain thresholds, they either crack (greenstick), split, or straight up stick out your leg (compound)

Limbs, including the tail, should have their own HP values that contribute to the entire HP pool, but their damage should be capped to where attacking the same limb over and over with blunt or bite damage alone will not kill the animal, like tail biting.

Head, torso, and spine should share HP values. One part hits 0%, the animal dies.

Anyway, this new system allows for more believable HP and consistent damage outcomes. Something that weighs 8 tons should have 8000 HP.

[primal heart]

Damage influence by weight is a good idea in evrima.
Utha must suffer more than a carno when hit by pachy or Teno.

[dusky surge]

no it isnt lmao

utah already suffers more because it has less health

we don't need to add the weight scaling back too

[hasty coyote]

If you mean the current weight=hp system, then yeah. But if you mean legacy’s system, then nah

[slim dragon]

Weight scaling on damage could apply, but only for specific attacks
Like tramples or slams

[primal heart]

It's good solution

[hasty coyote]

Plus, utah does suffer more than carno when it gets hit. Carno takes more hits than pachy can do with all of its stamina. Utah gets 3-shotted by a pachy

[primal heart]

Then How about the risk of fracture based on the weight difference? It's been mentioned before

[slim dragon]

I don't think it's necessary or a good thing to have
Also fracture isn't chance-based

[fresh laurel]

KNOCKDOWN NERF WOOOOOOOOO

TAIL HITS DO LESSS WOOOOOOOOOO

Carno bleeds easier apparently so yay for utah

UTAH BITE BUFF FINALLY

[silk harness]

At this point I'm more excited for the balance changes than skins or nesting. Carno's bite hitbox looks so much better on streams. I can't wait to fight it as a buffed Utah (possibly with a functional pounce???)

Please???

[fresh laurel]

the best is

CARNO BLEEDS EASIER

they might actually have to stop running around like a crack head in front of a utah pack

and utah bite might be worth going in for now?....

[calm ibex]

i think carno bite hitbox fix together with reduced dmg taken from tail bites are gonna be biggest

[fresh laurel]

I wonder how badly Carno will do against packs now

and how fighting teno will go, now that it takes less damage on the tail

[silk harness]

What I'm curious about is how tf bleed works exactly. Buffing the raw damage of utah's bite doesn't really change many matchups since bleed usually kills, but I've also heard that the amount of bleed applied is just tied to damage. So possibly utah bite is getting more raw damage AND applying more bleed in U5?

[fresh laurel]

pretty sure its like utah does 55 bleed damage to a dinosaur who might have 500 bleed hp due to their weight

so yea utah would be doing more bleed

its also the reason why carno does a lot of bleed

[silk harness]

Yeah that's what I heard, e.g. carno would do 175 bleed with each bite. Is a dino's blood pool also just tied to their weight?

[fresh laurel]

dont think it was changed for carno? before

[fresh laurel]

pretty sure

its why deino and stego are hard to bleed

[silk harness]

I wonder how they're making carno easier to bleed then. I do think there are like bleed heal and bleed resist stats that are independent of weight. I keep hearing that deino is bleed resistant beyond just having a high weight and thus a high blood pool.

[fresh laurel]

they can still change it separately i think

[silk harness]

Stego also seems to have ridiculous bleed heal compared to other dinos

[fresh laurel]

never tested bleed heal but I think stego is pretty in scale when to bleed heal

probably due to how much they heal because lots of blood

like percent based I think its the same

[calm ibex]

yea thats actually decent indirect teno buff since its so easy to get cheeky bites on its tail

[silk harness]

All ik is I once got a full unbucked pounce on a stego while it was sprinting back to dam. Kept sprinting after I ran out of stam. And then it healed that after standing still for less than a minute

[fresh laurel]

not sure how i feel though for it buffing teno

like sure its easy to bite their tail but...

its hard to really bite teno besides the tail-

[calm ibex]

yep

[silk harness]

Tip of the tail bites already do nothing to teno. I once got bit probably close to 10 times on the tip by a carno and it did almost no damage. Also doesn't apply bleed.

[fresh laurel]

teno hits hard everwhere

[fresh laurel]

you gotta go a bit more in

[silk harness]

Yeah the base of the tail is good damage. I hope they don't nerf damage to that area too much

[fresh laurel]

same

[fresh laurel]

it lost a lot of blood

well kinda

bleed still heals when running but drains quicker

[silk harness]

I'd be surprised if it lost anything too significant. I feel like it could only lose so much in about a minute, maybe a minute and a half

[fresh laurel]

I heard 2 utahs doing a full pounce at the same time does more bleed than 2 separate pounces

[silk harness]

It had also been bleeding from a whole pack of utahs pouncing prior to that, so it clearly wasn't too stressed about bleed % to be sprinting and not bucking

[silk harness]

It's true, more damage too. It multiplies for each one on at the same time, so you can get up to 4 on stego

Back in U3 when stego was weaker, you could kill it almost instantly with just 1 quad pounce

[fresh laurel]

i remember those days

good times

god i cant wait for update 5, i just wanna read the update log

[silk harness]

I don't know exactly how much it multiplies though. I don't think a double pounce is actually x2 bleed/damage. Probably closer to x1.5 or something

But yeah I'm itching to read that full balance changelog

[fresh laurel]

65n utah doe

wonder how utah vs pachy will go now

[silk harness]

Is that your prediction or is 65n confirmed?

[fresh laurel]

its confirmed

[silk harness]

Heard pachy got damage nerfs so it might honestly be utah-sided

[fresh laurel]

in the devblog lol

also someone took a pic https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/855527844670865438/992251973179019294/unknown.png

[fresh laurel]

also knockdown stun is reduced now so...

[silk harness]

Ah ok. I just saw that it was buffed in the devblog, but not by how much. 65n is solid, any higher might be a bit much

[fresh laurel]

from the videos though, it seems utah will be rewarded more for playing careful and skillful while pachy has to play less braindead

[silk harness]

Yeah that's huge for utah v pachy

[fresh laurel]

at least utah wont be doing crazy damage to the tail of pachy?

utah has to aim for the body more-

[silk harness]

Shit, just did the math and utah will need one less body bite to kill pachy. Doesn't sound like a lot but you're talking 9 bites vs 8 bites which is significant imo

[fresh laurel]

I hope this change makes carno ram not be so good at sniping tail hits smh

[fresh laurel]

and if pounce works...

utah kills itself in 7 bites now i think, W for Cannibles

[silk harness]

God please fix it or AT LEAST improve it. I don't even care about the visual bugs, just get rid of the bug that leaves you floating helpless in the air. It's a straight death sentence

[fresh laurel]

fix any pounce bug

no even better, ALL

hopefully pounce is fixed fr though now

It seems to work well much more in the videos

[silk harness]

Most stress test footage I've seen still has buggy pounces, but that was early on. I heard they keep changing it with each build and apparently it's pretty decent right now. Haven't seen a ton of recent utah gameplay

[fresh laurel]

utah can chip 130 off stego with head bites now

[fresh laurel]

the utah bugs probably made streamers put utah to the side for now lmao

[dusky surge]

blood pool = weight = health. I believe that all bleed damages are calculated by damage/100 (unless you're utah's pounce)

[fresh laurel]

what the heck are with your names bruv

[dusky surge]

they're GOOD names

[silk harness]

Damage divided by 100? Can you explain that further? Like how much bleed percentage would a utah bite take from another utah?

[dusky surge]

bleed... percentage?

[fresh laurel]

[dusky surge]

bleed ticks over time

and the amount of bleed you take is dependent on movement

[fresh laurel]

so uh mr cerato, what do you think of the balance changes mentioned in the devblog

[dusky surge]

faster move = more bleed

i like most if not all

[fresh laurel]

including utah 65n?

[dusky surge]

yes

[fresh laurel]

[dusky surge]

its not a HUGE buff to 100

(like some LUNATICS have suggested)

[fresh laurel]

people asked for 100?

[dusky surge]

it's a minor buff that helps it out

[dusky surge]

yes

[fresh laurel]

how do you think utah vs pachy or utah vs carno will go with said changes now?

[silk harness]

Mb that was a dumb question. I just don't understand what determines the amount of time something bleeds for. E.g. why does a carno bite generally deal more bleed than a utah bite if movement speed is equal in both cases

[fresh laurel]

knockdown is less duration and carno bleeds easier

[dusky surge]

its dependent on damage

carno bite does more damage so it does more bleed as well

[silk harness]

Do you know if the timer is static? Like will a carno bite make a utah and a stego both bleed for the same amount of time? Obviously a stego will bleed less because bigger blood pool, but

[dusky surge]

timer is dependent on health, food, water and stamina

[silk harness]

Ah right, diet increases bleed heal

I knew about the stamina dependency from an oldass video, but wasn't sure if it was still a factor in U4.5

Bleed just seems like a hard thing to test with so many factors, I haven't been able to find much info on it. Ty for answering my questions tho

[dusky surge]

if utah is bad, carno still wins. If utahs are good and have good numbers, they have an okay chance

[silk harness]

I do think we'll start to see the best utah players winning 1v1s with carnos. Since they can actually land bites now without trading most of the time.

[obtuse ocean]

Then its something wrong with balance, unless its huge skill diffrence

[dusky surge]

what are you referring to

[obtuse ocean]

the guy above me

[dusky surge]

utahs will still likely only be winning if they are very skilled

carnos very likely already have the upperhand

even if changed, they're still carnos

three bites and the utah is out

[slim dragon]

I think a big game hunter with the highest skill ceiling in the game winning against a non-brawler type big prey is okay as long as it's hard to pull off

[dusky surge]

its very much dependent on how competent the carno vs the utah is

many carnos play pretty dumb as it is

honestly, we'll likely see a far lesser population of carnos, as carnos who aren't careful will be quickly killed by utahs at a young age, and the free diet period is FAR less prevalent in U5

They'll actually need to be semi-competent to grow and survive

[slim dragon]

Wait
I can already smell the massive wave of people asking to buff carno because now it requires skill to play incoming

[obtuse ocean]

lol true

[dusky surge]

yep (even tho its juvi stage will still possess amazing speed, acceleration and stamina)

it'll be nice to see a greater diversity of animals, especially carnivores

[obtuse ocean]

yea im waiting for more dinos, most bigger guys since im more a solo player.

[dusky surge]

deinos and carnos are harder to grow, utah is stronger than he was before, deino actually wants to cannibalise more, so on

good ways to moderate the populations of these animals

[obtuse ocean]

il be honest, growing in evrima is so darn easy.

Espescially carno

[slim dragon]

You say that like growing in legacy was any hard

[obtuse ocean]

well if someone saw you in legacy as juvi, you where dead. Here you can flee

atleast as deino and carno, stego your prob dead

[slim dragon]

But in legacy you could just walk away from hotspots and be handfed by server AI
Or be fed for your entire growth time with a single berry bush

[dusky surge]

true as

legacy was a matter of gaming the system

if you knew where and how to grow, you could basically always do it

[obtuse ocean]

yea, but ai made sounds. So others could go after it.

[dusky surge]

the only difference between growing a utah and rex is the time taken, not the difficulty of them

[slim dragon]

Fun fact
The first dino I ever grew to adulthood was sucho, I thought it was able to fish so I spent my life following a river looking for a place where I could fish
It happened that this river was the most barren place in the server

[obtuse ocean]

Growing giga in legacy was hell

[dusky surge]

couldnt even fish :(

growing a giga in legacy was only hell if you hate staying in one place for a long time

[slim dragon]

After some time I thought sucho unlocked the ability to fish once adult
When I discovered it didn't I stopped playing legacy

[dusky surge]

(i have very little patience so I often got fucked by leaving my safe growing spots)

[obtuse ocean]

you wont keep up the food when you hit sub, if you way out with noone around

[dusky surge]

fair as

[dusky surge]

you'd be surprised how much avas can feed

[obtuse ocean]

if your on a server with 150+ people you gonna have a hard time, if your not in spots where others carnis are

[dusky surge]

also, the fact that they SPAWNED NEAR YOU WHEN HUNGRY was fucking silly

Made growth a cakewalk

[obtuse ocean]

like evrima : D they are ai everywhere

[dusky surge]

So glad in EVRIMA you have to seek out AI, and they have more unique behaviours than "scream and become food"

[slim dragon]

Also "hungry" was under 70%
So even if you somehow failed to kill the AI (which I did) you still had plenty of time and a lot of attempts

[obtuse ocean]

seek out AI ?? they are everywhere, lol

[slim dragon]

I just wish evrima AI was a little harder to catch and smarter

[dusky surge]

I like what they've done so far. Speedy deer, burrowing rabbits and aggro boars are great starts

[slim dragon]

Yeah but deer are not speedy enough and boars are either too much aggro, either too weak
A boar should definitely be able to survive a carno charge

Also AI sometimes randomly stops running away and let you kill them

[obtuse ocean]

I dont fear for my life in evrima, as i did in legacy when growing. If you get cought in everima you have a good chance of escaping.

Stego was somewhat hard to grow tho

[dusky surge]

in legacy i felt barely afraid once i had found my growth spot

i remember feeding my full adult rex on nothing but tacos and avas lmao

[obtuse ocean]

yea but if you got caught, no matter what. If i saw you, i could easly kill you

[slim dragon]

And that was a problem

[dusky surge]

and that was kinda lame honestly

[obtuse ocean]

in legacy, i can choose to run

i mean evrima

[dusky surge]

which is good

juvis deserve to be fun too

[obtuse ocean]

So you want easy grow ?

[dusky surge]

i want people to actually PLAY the game during juvi

[slim dragon]

We want to be able to survive by other means than hiding in a bush for 6 hours straight

[dusky surge]

rather than doing the hiding tactic because they KNEW they'd lose to anything that saw them

[obtuse ocean]

Well you can run, your not gonna do anyting else lol

[slim dragon]

Being able to run is already 100% more options than there were in legacy

[obtuse ocean]

i can agreee on that, hiding was boring

[dusky surge]

juvi gets such a bad rap because of legacy

EVRIMA trying to aid that is incredible

[obtuse ocean]

But you prob gonna be hiding with all other carnis , if you going something bigger then allo and up

[dusky surge]

good thing we have diets to encourage people to eventually leave the bush lmao

[obtuse ocean]

lol that is true

[slim dragon]

I don't see what you mean
Juvie rex should be perfectly able to hunt small things and run away from larger threats

Although I can see things like juvie trike, para and shant having a lot of trouble surviving alone

[obtuse ocean]

yea at the very start, but as you grow. That gonna change. A allo will still beat the crap outta you after juvi : P

[dusky surge]

yea, i see that

[slim dragon]

Uhhh
Heavy speculation ?

[dusky surge]

wait, why are we talking about allo?

i'm doubtful allo will have the required speed to catch up to most juvis in this game

[obtuse ocean]

not really, for balance issue. Im sure rex gonna be hard to grow

[dusky surge]

allo seems like something that will be fast, but lack endurance. Good stam regen, good speed, terrible stam time.

[slim dragon]

If a juvie rex cannot fight nor run away from an allo past a certain age then the balance is bad

[slim dragon]

Sounds like bigger carno

[dusky surge]

Nah, unlike carno, it'd have decent trot and trot stam regen

[slim dragon]

I honestly see Allo more as an endurance hunter
And alberto as a big brawler heavy-damage-dealer

[dusky surge]

which is why i'd give allo good trot speed personally

based on the animations, it likely will have a very good trotspeed anyways

[slim dragon]

yeah

[keen plover]

I remember the idea before for it to have its great trot to help keep pressure on larger creatures in packs, while the fast speed would help it run down smaller things.

[dusky surge]

that was my idea, yea

[keen plover]

Also the great trot would help it actually traverse the map without having to run around

yeah yours

[dusky surge]

sprint for ambushes, trot for endurance against animals like stego

[obtuse ocean]

Why? your small, your weak and can die.

[keen plover]

juvi rex should be fast.

There is no reason such a fragile creature should be run down by an allo

[obtuse ocean]

juvi rex sure, but when u grow you gonna be slower and less stam

[slim dragon]

Because if something that took 5 hours to grow ends up in a situation where it has no chance of survival it's bad balance

[slim dragon]

When you start getting slower you become stronger as well

[obtuse ocean]

yes, but you still can be clapped by a allo/dilo/utah/cera etc

[slim dragon]

I expect rex to start trading off speed for strength at around 4 tons
Which is already more than enough to fend off any allo

[dusky surge]

juvi rex can escape allo, sub rex can face allo head to head and adult rex will kill a cocky allo

[slim dragon]

Clearly not

[obtuse ocean]

You wanne be unthoucable or something ? Run away from everything , then be strong enough to kill whatever that can catch u ?

[keen plover]

I feel like juvi rex should be left to carno and utah

[dusky surge]

most deaths in this game should be caused by player error, not "because my animal is better than ur animal!"

[slim dragon]

That's not what I said, but you seem to underestimate the size difference between those animals

[obtuse ocean]

If your sub rex, i think an allo can kill you. If they are two, you gonna have problems

[keen plover]

well yes

[dusky surge]

a sub rex should be able to kill an allo and vice versa

[obtuse ocean]

depends on the growth stage

[dusky surge]

i said the growth stage

[obtuse ocean]

early sub doubt it

[slim dragon]

I think a sub rex will have no trouble fighting off an allo
Allo is 2.5 tons I think ?
By the time it reaches subadult, assuming adult rex is 7 or 8 tons, it should weigh 5 tons at least

[dusky surge]

I'd say a sub rex will be at minimum like 3 tons

[keen plover]

Early sub should be fast. Also they have a new weight scaling, where things bulk up towards adult stage. Subject to change of course

[obtuse ocean]

now ur speculating, closest thing we have is legacy power level. And allo did easly kill sub rexes

[dusky surge]

thats legacy

[slim dragon]

You shouldn't base yourself off legacy balance
I'm making estimates based on the probable animal weights

[keen plover]

Allo is 2.8T- legacy sized

[dusky surge]

and sub rexes could easily kill allos in legacy so

it depended on the player

[keen plover]

both could kill each other

[obtuse ocean]

if you died to a grown allo as sub rex , your bad lol

i mean as rex

[dusky surge]

???

[obtuse ocean]

allo beat the crap outta sub rexes, your faster more stam and you bleed the crap outta them

[keen plover]

I mean, allo needs barely any bites to stack enough bleed to hurt a rex while it uses its godly heal

legacy balance though lol

[dusky surge]

sub rexes could and did kill allos. Also legacy balance sucks donkey balls

[slim dragon]

Legacy balance is a great example
Of what not to do

[obtuse ocean]

if your bad yes , u could die

[keen plover]

both could kill each others. Depended on who struck first. Anyways

[dusky surge]

anyways, idk why you want sub and juvi phase to suck but you know, to each their own

just die to anything that sees you, really get that old fashioned bush gameplay back up and running

[obtuse ocean]

Look at stego, strong and slow as juvi. But you stilla gonna die to a grow carno or two

[keen plover]

but that has to be slow since animations don't allow things to be quicker

[dusky surge]

So every animal should be like that?

[true ginkgo]

Weight = HP system is good imo.

I don't understand so many peoples issues with it.

[keen plover]

Stego is literally capped in speed unless you get something ungodly

[dusky surge]

I honestly don't get it either

[slim dragon]

Makes every balance change unnecessarily harder, unrealistic and forces having inaccurate weights in order to balance things out

[true ginkgo]

Before the weight = HP system you ended up with awful stuff like a 550kg stego having 1/3 the health of a 500kg utah.

And it had less health than a 120kg dryo.

[obtuse ocean]

Most likly apexes, atleast its speculation on something thats already in game.

[dusky surge]

i disagree, i think it makes balance easier personally

[slim dragon]

Separating health and eight doesn't ecessarily means putting random bad values in their place

[dusky surge]

having to balance health values for individual growth stages, specific animals and so on is AWFUL

I much prefer the current day system

[true ginkgo]

Weight = HP keeps animals health consistent and predictable throughout their entire growth. Rather than only balancing adult health and making juvies all over the place.

[dusky surge]

And in no way does it "force" unrealistic weights

[slim dragon]

You can' tchange an animal's health without also changing
-fall damage
-food intake
-corpse food amount
-grabbing/pinning threshold
-fracture resitance
-blood pool
-CC resistance
As a game designer you should understand that poses more problems than it solves

[true ginkgo]

Those wern't random bad values. That was the exact stats up to update 3.5

[slim dragon]

Make it a curve, like weight growth ? I don't see a problem there

[dusky surge]

You can... program special case mechanics, you know that?

Pachy has a special headshot multiplier, and complete resistance to head fractures

[slim dragon]

I said what I said
Utah having 1000 health was a random and bad value, doesn't mean that separating health and weight will necessarily mean that utah health will go back to 1000

[slim dragon]

Whywould you program additionnal mechanics while you could simply change values ?

[true ginkgo]

Like if people really want 4000hp stego, they should just rename it to wuerhosaurus.

Which is.... a 4000kg stego relative which looks almost identical.

[slim dragon]

hp is an indicative video-game value, I don't see how it wouldn't be stego anymore
If it stays at 6 tons

[dusky surge]

If it meant having consistent balancing values, I would do that. If I'm adding 55 whole animals, the last thing I want is to spend more time writing up more stats to ensure a niche, rather than simply modifying other factors outside of health and weight to reach the desired result

You have no idea how adding more variables makes the process INFINITELY harder to work with and balance

[slim dragon]

The best would be to have a more complex health system rather than a single health bar, kinda like Rimworld, but that would be a lot to ask

[true ginkgo]

But personally I like apexes having a ton of health. It's not meant to be a fighting game where every animal can fight every animal.

It's a survival game. If you see some creatures you should just run.

[obtuse ocean]

yes, as grown. Not in juvi/sub stage. You are not grown. you are weaker. So yes, something that is grown can easly kill you.

[slim dragon]

But it's not consistent if one animal takes 20% more damage, another one takes 10% less and so on

[slim dragon]

I didn't say every animal should be able to fight every other

[dusky surge]

you only do that if you feel it is warranted, like how pachy's head takes less damage. That makes perfect sense and works fine with the animal

Changing the values "just cus" solves nothing

[slim dragon]

Changing values can be perfectly justified
Notably by the fact that being heavier doesn't make you proportionnally tougher

[dusky surge]

I personally would feel way more stressed out trying to balance this game if weight and health were seperated

[slim dragon]

Let's compare a 80 kg human to a 80 kg boar
If a human gets hit by a car going 90 km/h, they will most likely die or suffer a lot of broken bones.
If a boar that weighs the same is hit by the same car going 90 km/h, it simply gets up and runs away. Unrealistic as hell, isn't it ?

[slim dragon]

But at least you'd have the opportunity to make it balanced

[frail bobcat]

Weight= health is fine

[dusky surge]

much as i would with the current system

[obtuse ocean]

Well do you alot of trade off picking apexes with huge health and power, speed /walking / stamina / food etc

[dusky surge]

the system in no way defeats the concept of good balance

[slim dragon]

Well, so what happens if you need to make an animal slightly tougher to give it better chances of survival, so you increase its weight but it ends up being less viable because now it cannot sustain itself properly ?

[frail bobcat]

Damage resistance to certain things

[keen plover]

can't changing individual locational damage remedy that?

[slim dragon]

And worse, now it also becomes immune to its main competitor's grabbing ability because it exceeded the weight threshold

[slim dragon]

So it's the same thing, but instead you have dinos which, for some reason, take 10% less damage or take 20% more damage
Is that any more consistent than having different health values for dinos of the same weight ?

[dusky surge]

if i needed to make an animal more tough, i'd either
A: Change its individual damage mods to specific sources of damage (bleed, locational resistances, fracture resist, so on)
B: Add more to its niches that assist it in surviving, rather than buff HP directly

[slim dragon]

So let's take the example of cerato, assuming it needs to fight off bigger foes
You'd rather have Cerato take 80% damage to the body, 120% damage to head and 17% damage to tail with 1100 health, instead of giving cerato 1500 health and the same damage resistances as any other playable ?

Well actually every playable would end up having different damage resisstances if we go that route

[dusky surge]

or i'd add a mechanic to cerato that specifically aids in fighting and defending itself against larger foes and see how that goes

[frail bobcat]

You know that anky will exist with the weight = health system and I bet it will have resistances

[dusky surge]

probably will have a unique armour mechanic to aid it

[slim dragon]

That's quite a complex mental gymnastic
"I don't want to change one value so I'm gonna spend 3 months coming up with a mechanic that solves the one balance problem this dino has"

[slim dragon]

It's fine for anky because it literally has armor

[dusky surge]

or just change other stats like speed, damage resists or so on

[obtuse ocean]

And forces me to play a style i dont really want : P

[slim dragon]

But in that case armour should reduce damage by a set amount so that it's different from simply having more health

[dusky surge]

we already have that mechanic

[frail bobcat]

Tail hits

[slim dragon]

So changing stats like speed and damage is fine but changing health is forbidden

[slim dragon]

What about tail hits ?

[dusky surge]

i really would rather know my max HP rather than not

weight = HP lets me do that

without rigorous testing

[slim dragon]

What if max HP is written in character screen then ?

[frail bobcat]

Its kind of an armor system

[slim dragon]

It's not like it'd be less immersive than it already is, we already have utahs with 50 newtons biteforce according to character screen

[slim dragon]

No ? It's locational damage

[frail bobcat]

That is kind of the same

[dusky surge]

i'd hate that. The character screen is meant to display the dinosaur's physical stats, easily identifiable traits that irl scientists could find. You cannot quantify HP in a way that doesn't immediately gamify it

[frail bobcat]

65 Newtons

[dusky surge]

We can quantify speed, bite force and weight

[slim dragon]

So you want to know your exact health value but you don't want it to look like a videogame either ?

[dusky surge]

which weight = HP does well

[slim dragon]

Also one could come up with pretty much anything to quantify health in a "rp" way.
Blood pressure, brain activity, idk

[dusky surge]

1000 brain activity

blood pressure sounds more like a bleed thing

[slim dragon]

But weight=hp either implies unrealistic weight values, either unrealistic dinosaur resistances

[dusky surge]

also who the fuck is quantifying the animal's blood pressure

[keen plover]

I'm still a bit lost. What's the issue with weight=hp?

[dusky surge]

and the idea that a stego has a MASSIVE brain activity is fucking hilarious to me

[frail bobcat]

Dunno

[slim dragon]

These are random values, I'm not a doctor, but I'm 100% sure there is a way to quantify how healthy a person or animal is

[dusky surge]

i honestly dont know

[dusky surge]

not numerically, no

there is no way to accurately numerically identify the amount of damage a person can take till dead

[slim dragon]

I also find it stupid to tie health directly to weight because it has no basis
Why not base health on length or on bone density while we're at it ?

[slim dragon]

Because there is no health irl, but at that point the problem comes with the fact of having a health bar itself

And that's also why I think a rimworld-like system would be slightly better

[azure crescent]

or just have the heart hp bar thing show the exact hp you have when you hover your mouse over it

[slim dragon]

Also we may have a disagreement on that because I personnally find that in a survival game, you shouldn't know your exact stats

It makes things more tense instead of knowing "oh that animal deals 300 damage per attack and I have 6000 health, I can tank it and still win"

[frail bobcat]

But it will be like that with another system and experienced players

[keen plover]

True, people will meta find out the info or hackers will. May as well give us the value.

[slim dragon]

Unless they know the exact values, then no
It's fine thinking you can outdamage someone in a facetanking contest, but it's better if you don't know exactly to what extent

[slim dragon]

It wouldn't be as easy at least

[frail bobcat]

They will know

[slim dragon]

And it's also the reason I would like more complex damage calculation systems

So damage is more variable

[dusky surge]

people are still begging for teno's tailslam stats

[keen plover]

Funny thing is, you can find out the values in a test server. By inspecting the values

[dreamy fiber]

You can't add numeric values - well, not without a lot of complexity - to real damage
But the Isle is a video game with set damage points lol

So the health existing but essentially just not showing the value of what you were hit for is void. A player that knows the values already already knows their rough health. A new player does not.
So all hiding the health does is make you make worse informed decisions as an inexperienced player.

The fact that I can't see the health value has never added to my immersion in any single way. I still look at it as a health bar and get confused when it looks to be empty but I'm alive. Hiding the health is a decision which, imo, just makes skill ceilings more difficult to obtain and is frustrating

[slim dragon]

Hiding the health value wouldn't actually change much if it makes sense

[frail bobcat]

It would change much

[dreamy fiber]

It would for less experienced players

[slim dragon]

It increases people's weariness for not knowing exactly
It changes from "I can still take 1.5 bites before dying" to
"I can take 1 or two more bites before dying"

[dreamy fiber]

For more experiences players not reallyx so it just creates a power imbalance.

I don't think it's really had that effect at all lol
I never look at it and think like that. It's usually pretty clear how much you can take exactly

[slim dragon]

Look, I play a lot of Monster Hunter. Monster health values are hidden in this game, yet with a little bit of experience you can guess quite precisely how much health left a monster has
You don't know the exact number of hits you still need to kill it, but it's better because it adds to the tension

[dreamy fiber]

Yes but that's my point, it takes experience and thus creates a power imbalance between players. This is Pvp not pve

[slim dragon]

All it would need would be to have more indicative damage screens
Also the heart icon in the character screen is good enough as an indication, you don't need to know the exact value

[dreamy fiber]

The damage screen are pretty awful compared to the heart ngl

[slim dragon]

An imbalance for roughly knowing how much health you have instead of roughly guessing how much health you have ? All it does is making new players less confident, which they should be

[keen plover]

legacy's damage screen was way better tbh

at least you knew how low you were. Not better than the heart though

[dreamy fiber]

You look like you have major damage but you're at like 80% health lol

Not really. Most new players should be wary anywway they don't know anything yet. All it does is gimp their ability to make an informed decision.

[dreamy fiber]

I agree. Its one of the few points I prefer legacy on

[slim dragon]

No ? The damage screens and heart icons should be way enough to know how much health you have left and make the right decision
You don't need to know how much health you exactly have

[keen plover]

oh no one needs to know the numerical value

[frail bobcat]

Yes, I was multiple times like oh shit and then I was almost full health

[dreamy fiber]

You don't need to but that isn't the point I'm making. I think it's. Better quality of life adjustment for new players to be able to see since it simply doesn't really effect experienced players

There's already an imbalance between New and experienced players through knowledge, they don't really need punishing more for choosing to pick up the game lol

And don't get me wrong there should be an imbalance in Pvp in this case, but I don't think the game should be actively harming or interfering with it.

[slim dragon]

It's not punishment if nobody needs to know the exact value

Why woud a new player need to know it more than an experience player ? It's the opposite

A newbie player will have enough info seeing "oh the heart is half empty, I must be around half health"
Where an experienced player would be the one wanting to know they have 456 hp left instead of 460 (even if that's basically useless)

[dreamy fiber]

(the health bar has very little impact on me, I could really care less in terms of my own gameplay experience)
And no that isn't really true so see:
And experienced player already knows what the value of a hit the yre going to take is roughly worth a new player doesn't know the value until they've been hit. But klnot knowing the values means that they still don't know the exact value and also don't actually have a way to learn about head shot multiplier innately

[slim dragon]

They don't need to

[dreamy fiber]

Because they can't read the darned values. It's a lot easier to just pass over a block of red than it is to read numbers

Yes they do need to. That's part of learning the game.

[slim dragon]

You make not knowing the exact health value much bigger of a problem than it actually is

A lot of games actually don't tell you exactly how much health you have, or they only do in menus

[keen plover]

Knowing your exact HP adds a lot to the meta. Sometimes you think you're one shot, but you could be 2 shot. It changes your action

[dreamy fiber]

No, I'm not, I'm stating the exactly issue with it. As I previously stated I don't come of the opinion that you need to see it.

I believe it creates an imbalance and thst this imbalance is already preexisting in a condition due to knowledge which is fine however the game interferes and in a Pvp survival game that's pretty rough for new folk. I don't know how many times I need to repeat it to you.j do however think you need to learn the mechanics of the game which is why head shit M is important

[slim dragon]

And that' why I think not knowing is better in that regard
Also the reason I would like more complex damage calculations, so that NOBODY knows the exact values

[dreamy fiber]

Shot*

If more complex damage calculations existed, I think the no health value would be fine tbh

But that's not the case lol

[slim dragon]

And it's a shame because it makes combat much more arcade than survival

[obtuse ocean]

I dont think ever in legacy i cared about exact health, you just sorta knew you would be one shotted when your on last screen. If not you had seconds before bled out.

[dreamy fiber]

That said given how rough the Isle can be at times there'd probably be a lot of issues with dynamic damage LOL I can imagine some very salty situations

[slim dragon]

If people can't handle the salt in a survival-horror game that's on them

[keen plover]

tbf, you had decent amount of HP in the last screen. You usually just died due to bleed being DOT.

[dreamy fiber]

No I mean the Isle is always buggy af

[keen plover]

iirc, last screen was like 30% of your hp

[dreamy fiber]

There's no doubt dynamic damage would bug out so hard

[slim dragon]

If The Isle remains as buggy as it is currently in its final state I will consider it doesn't deserve my attention anymore

[dreamy fiber]

And players do have a reason to be upset if they it probably won't ever reach a final state. Its just one of those games.
Not saying its impossible but it doesn't look likely

[obtuse ocean]

yes, and thats where skill comes in. A guy who played the game for awhile understand this. And thats fine for me.

[slim dragon]

Also they managed to make seamless growth, dynamic health and stat adjustments from diets, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to add a little more to the damage calculations

Something as simple as "more stamina=more damage" would suffice

[dreamy fiber]

I wouldn't say it's that seamless in game. You can noticeably see the growth and I've seen it done better

[frail bobcat]

No, this is a VERY bad idea

[obtuse ocean]

that would be horrible,

[slim dragon]

How so ?

[frail bobcat]

It would be a waiting fest and would take all the speed out of the combat

[obtuse ocean]

You can be in a pack, trade bite heal the stam up. Then trade bite again, just dont let the guy your attacking heal

[dreamy fiber]

More stam = more damage might not really interact well with the current combat. It'd need an overhaul to make thst fit well

[slim dragon]

You mean, because poeple would wait to fill up their stamina before attacking again ? But if the other guy gets their stamina back too, it changes nothing
Also you're screwing any ambush if you do that

[frail bobcat]

Thats the point, its annoying and changes nothing

[slim dragon]

Not much different than what currently happens

[frail bobcat]

Except for stretching out the fights

[slim dragon]

It makes it so you can't 100% predict the issue of a fight or the damage an opponent will deal to you

[dreamy fiber]

But even ignoring going to regen stam, which people do anyway, some creatures are built around careful stam management in the current system like teno. Stam = damage would basically just ruin teno, and would leave sonething like stego even more indisputable.

[slim dragon]

Also rewards attacking with full stamina (or keeping it in case you must defend yourself) and backing off when you're low

[dreamy fiber]

Not syaig it can't work but you are looking at a total combat overhaul

[frail bobcat]

Which is annoying. Why does everything have to be not random

[slim dragon]

Because randomness is shit

[slim dragon]

Yes

[obtuse ocean]

I dont want to know ive already won a fight in groups, by calculating the fight. And just trade bites lol.

[frail bobcat]

And it would make 2 vs 1 ridicoulusly unfair

[slim dragon]

Depends on the amount of damage boost/nerf

[dreamy fiber]

*in the current system
But he has agreed thst you'd need an overhaul which would change the dynamics of the current fights

She essentially we have no idea how it would look since everything would change

[fresh laurel]

well, that was an interesting discussion

[hollow canyon]

as if it wasn't in Evrima... it's the same thing, the system is just slightly different

[hollow canyon]

depends on how big the subrex is, a fully grown sub rex easily murdered Allo 1v1

[hollow canyon]

that's nonsense actually and simply isn't true

I've already gone over it above but I will repeat myself

each interaction in the game is determined by more than one value - you have the weight of the target, the weight of the attacker and then the threshold

you can simply change the threshold if you don't like how it works(some of the thresholds should absolutely get changes otherwise we will have pachies knocking Ceratos down)

aside from that however - all those things should absolutely be proportional to one another

being unable to change those values without changing others is a good thing, not a bad thing, it prevents the game from having some completely ludicrous interactions like when a tiny Utah had more hp than an animal twice its size

weight=hp should absolutely remain a thing, you have to be more specific about what exactly is the current problem caused by the fact that these two values are equal.

[wispy valley]

I do agree weight = hp should always be a thing, but weight should not determine how much damage you do against another creature. Unless trample damage. Cuz come on, a baby Utah would definitely get squished to a pancake if a Rex stepped on it.

Those equations are best reserved for armor and locational damage.

[mental roost]

Can I get some syrup with that baby Utah?
Fried chicken and waffles is somewhat popular afterall in the States.

[wispy valley]

So how will trample damage work? Feet will have their own hit box that causes trample damage when the dinosaur walks? But only between specific animation points. Only one tick of damage for each foot, hopefully.

[grave veldt]

it would also need to be for specific dinosaurs not just weight

[wispy valley]

Uh? No. A Utah could step on a Compy and do significant damage.

Be 500kg and step on something that weighs 7 kg. Compy squish.

That's like a human stepping on a mouse and breaking its back.

[azure crescent]

what do you mean?

[grave veldt]

Oh no I mean special occasions such as how it would look strange for a deino to trample a stego for example due to it being so low to the ground even if it weighs more

[azure crescent]

even if deino was taller than stego it wouldn't trample it because of the weight difference + the plates

[mental roost]

Make tall Deino a reality; I need to see how cursed and awful that'd look

[thin mantle]

Brachienosuchus, make it happen devs

[mental roost]

Deinosuchus but it's on stilts

[thin mantle]

Deinosuchus going full Godrick, grafting more deino limbs onto its own to make giant deino limb tentacle legs

https://tenor.com/view/godrick-hi-elden-ring-gif-25033347

Make it happen devs!!!

[mental roost]

FOREFATHERS ONE AND ALL, BARE WITNESS!!

[thin mantle]

Now I want deino to have a giant axe and breath fire

[mental roost]

Deinosuchus the grafted

[somber sphinx]

Magy the golden order

[thin mantle]

Magy with MPD made of stone with the matrix of reality in its torso wielding a hammer of a thousand compies

https://tenor.com/view/radagon-gif-25353169

Oh I’m gonna have fun when mod support comes to Evrima

[mental roost]

I want to draw Deinosuchus the grafted now, fuck

[somber sphinx]

Utah the fal omen

[mental roost]

Utah the uwu omen

[somber sphinx]

[thin mantle]

Missed opportunity for “UwUtah, Lord of Blood”

[mental roost]

Miquella is mine, and mine alone

[thin mantle]

Dilonia, Goddess of Venom

[somber sphinx]

Allo blade of miquella

[mental roost]

and she has never known, defeet

[somber sphinx]

Alberto the black blade

[thin mantle]

Troodon, Lord of Blasphemy ||yes this is a dig against troodon ||

[thin mantle]

Imma go snatch the Alberto model from Gmod Isle and supplant Maliketh with Alberto now

Gimme 10 years while I learn how to do that

[somber sphinx]

Faster than the isle?!??

[thin mantle]

Oh god, that’s my next project, porting all Gmod legacy models into ER

Every enemy shall be replaced

The Elden beast will become a giant celestial taco

[mental roost]

Rune bear Tyrannosaurus Rex

[thin mantle]

Perfect

I’ll replace the big flaming head chariots with a giant fire breathing proto

[hollow canyon]

@twin oar latency, the way locational interacts with CC has been changed in update 4.5 to make tailhits not cause CC so it's either lag or a bug.

[wintry mountain]

more than likely the former unfortunately

something we cannot do much about

[hollow canyon]

@hot bluff Only the first hit from Pachy CCs the Utah. All the following attacks do not apply CC. Utahraptor's main combat tool is its pounce. This animal is based on bleeding its opponent out. Pachy has a very low blood pool. The general approach to hunting it is to bait its ram attack and then pounce it while it's in the recovery phase of its attack. You then apply as much bleed as you can onto it and try to make it move as much as you can as it bleeds out. Tenonto and Carno aren't realistically killable by a single Utahraptor. This animal is a pack hunter whose lethality increases with its numbers. It needs to have its packmates cover for it while it regains stamina after pouncing.

Also - the bite rate of Utah and Carno is actually the same, both bite once per second

however Utah's bite might be registering slightly later in the animation

And you not having played legacy is completely irrelevant, that game is in general quite irrelevant to Evrima's balance.

Also - for what it's worth Utahraptor seems to be receiving a buff so it might get better in the next update.

[hollow canyon]

@celest copper Honestly that's quite baffling, Tenonto is probably the hardest animal to play in the game at the moment. Herbivores are harder to grow although easier to maintain than their carnivorous counterparts.
As a matter of fact - carnivores are getting a nerf directed at their growth in update 5.

The secondary attacks of herbivores cost stamina to use. Especially on Tenonto idk how you can say that it or Pachy have "infinite secondary attacks". Tenonto can tailslam only some 10 times before it's out of gas and just dies to its opponent without being able to fight back... really at all.

And "apex" in this game does not have the same meaning as it does in ecology. We're not talking about apexes as the animals that are at the top of the foodchains. Apex was merely a term used to describe the dinosaurs you could get at the top of the progression trees which later on evolved to simply apply to the dinosaurs that take the longest time to grow and have the most power behind them.

[celest copper]

This is stated out of experience, the teno can spam the tail attack and kick attack, but when it's stamina is low it only take a couple of seconds before it is ready to spam an extra 2 tail or kick attacks.

Comparing the requirements from a juvenile to adult, growing a herbivore is easier, you spawn somewhere out of common sense and find a plant for your diet. While carnivores need to kill something and you only have a chance for you finding food is scarce. Herbivores have it easier, way than carnivores

I soloed 2 carnos as a 90% Edit: teno and easily discouraged an utah pack attacking me as a 70% grown stego.

[hollow canyon]

I definitely disagree with that

Tenonto and Carno are similar in terms of how difficult they are to grow, Pachy is harder than Utah, Deino is easier than Stego.

Idk how 2 Carnos can get soloed by a 90% Tenonto tbh, that sounds like a massive skill issue

they should generally be winning 2v1 against a single adult Tenonto with relatively little problem

[golden coral]

Carnis just need to find one carcass and youre set to 50% and more. Easier in general than the herbis. Also, a teno spamming attacks just dies, same really goes for pachy and even stego when theyre out of stam.

[hollow canyon]

As for herbivores' growth, you need to make your way across the entire map at the start of your growth.

Carnivores have to move more often but less

[celest copper]

I already knew you would disagree.
Also it takes absolutely no skill to grow a single herbivore,
Carno take 2hrs and 15min, Teno takes 1hr 45min: and their on the same level?
You sound exactly like every other herbivore main, and will whine to keep the position or make it even easier for yourselves.

[hollow canyon]

I actually vastly prefer carnivores

And they don't take that long, not in reality

you're not taking diets into account while stating those numbers

[celest copper]

If you really disagree with it being easier to grow a carnivore than a herbivore, then you haven't played a carnivore, and probably only plan to do it once

[hollow canyon]

That's just wrong though, I play 3 animals the most:

1. Tenonto
2. Carno
3. Deino

The rest I play much less

but my 4th most played dinosaur is Utah so

Tenonto takes roughly around 2h-2h10 minutes to grow to full adult because of the diets

Carno takes perhaps slightly longer but it's not a big difference

The two are very comparable

Utah is definitely easier to grow than Pachy though, you just find 2 things you can eat throughout your entire growth and you're on your way to full adult

Deino is vastly easier than Stego, it's actually one of the easiest animals to grow, a literal afk simulator where you don't really have to do anything just sit in a spot where other Deinos don't find you and munch on fish

Stego has to move across the whole map(although admittedly, I don't play Stego much if at all)

[celest copper]

For teno it took me an 1hr and 50min max, but it seems that it was only out of experience of playing an animal diet (carnivore) that has no place in the game at the moment, and that was my first attempt a while ago

[hollow canyon]

That's really weird, just the path you have to take from radish to mountain ash should add more than 5 minutes to your growth

[celest copper]

Not really if you know how to play a carnivore, it should be really easy

[hollow canyon]

Why... are you mentioning carnivores here?

Carnivores have a perfect diet the moment they find anything to eat at all

They don't have to run across the entire map, they just find any meat and munch it until they max out their nutrients

[celest copper]

In comparison, you are mentioning them in your recent messages about "utah and pachy", "deino and stego"

[celest copper]

That isn't how it works at all

[hollow canyon]

I mean yea - carnivores are easier to grow in these two examples

Tenonto might be easier to grow than Carno but just marginally, in my experience they are pretty comparable

Deino is definitely vastly easier than Stego just by the virtue of having solo access to fish and being uncontested in the water

[golden coral]

It is.

[hollow canyon]

Utah just eats one-two things throughout its entire growth and gets to full adult without breaking a sweat, it's one of the easier animals to grow

Pachy meanwhile has to move between different nutrient plants and it can be easily killed by pretty much any carnivore that notices it(or a herbivore that feels particularly bloodthirsty for that matter)

[celest copper]

How do you get the meat? your chances are ai that out run you or kill you, then you can feed off your dead body, which usually de spawns, your other chance at finding meat will be another player, perhaps a juvie which might take some time to find, or a carcass.
There isn't just meat lying around.

[hollow canyon]

If someone is dying to AI then that's a massive skill issue

And I don't disagree that acquiring meat is generally harder than acquiring plants

the difference is that you have to acquire 3 different plants vs any meat whatsoever

out of the two I think the meat is actually slightly easier

especially when you learn the spawn points of AI

and know where to go to get easy food

[dusky surge]

carnivores are currently 100% the easier to grow between the two

[celest copper]

Also the deino and stego are terrible comparisons, yes apparently in this "ecosystem" their both "apexes", but the deino is in a limited space, and the stego has everywhere to roam for food that doesn't move. Also the deino in reality doesn't care what it eats as long as it's meat, yet it has to obey a diet in this game.

[celest copper]

Then you haven't played a carnivore 😄, because you would know what I am talking about

[hollow canyon]

wat? wdym "deino in reality doesn't care what it eats as long as its meat"?

[hollow canyon]

I have played a carnivore though, I think you might just lack experience to know where to go to find free happy meals.

[dusky surge]

carnivore is my fave of the two. It's def easier to grow

[celest copper]

They can't be picky, they are limited to living in water, not many animals live in water the way they do, which is why it seems that the cannibalize so often

[hollow canyon]

Deino being in a limited space makes it easier to acquire food with since it doesn't have to traverse the whole map for it, it just swims around and munches on fish that is in the area, rather than having to make its way through the entire map

[hollow canyon]

I mean... neither were theropods based on what we know, carnivore diets in this game are a complete joke

I don't disagree with that

[celest copper]

Those happy meals usually are guarded by herbivores 🤦‍♂️

[hollow canyon]

diets are trash, especially for carnivores

[hollow canyon]

no they aren't?

[dusky surge]

diets are fine, i'm just waiting on gore, but the current diets are fine for what they are

[hollow canyon]

I'm talking about AI that can't fight back and in many cases don't even run away

Diets are trash, might get better with time but I'm not going to be hopeful about that

[celest copper]

In my feedback I was stating how easy it is to survive as a herbivore compared to it as a carnivore, I don't know how we stuck to diets in this case

[hollow canyon]

Well herbivores have a much easier time maintaining them

[celest copper]

I don't know about you, but in the official servers they run away in a proximity

[golden coral]

Deino has fish in a good few spots. Way easier than stego and much safer.

[hollow canyon]

yea well, depends which AI, turtles aint exactly running away from Carlo or Ultrarapters

[celest copper]

And to grow over all, yes it may take longer, but you know where your food is and it isn't going anywhere

[celest copper]

You can't just survive off of fish the entire time

[celest copper]

Why would you risk going to a beach finding and killing a turtle as a land predator or even the deino?

[golden coral]

You can actually

[celest copper]

If you want a terrible diet, then yes you can do that,

[dusky surge]

juvi deino can literally sustain itself on anything it finds. A 50% free pass is pretty sweet all things considered

[golden coral]

Eat fish until 50%,grow to 80+ before any worries. Easy growth compared to stego. This goes for all carnis vs herbis

[celest copper]

I didn't quite know that 50% growth was adult

[golden coral]

Herbis have it easier to get all diets as grown, but carnis grow easier overall.

[dusky surge]

no, but it's a good chunk, and if you keep your stomach full by the time you reach 50%, you'll have gotten at least 60% of your growth easy

carnis def have the easiest growth, and this comes from someone who plays both (although I play carni more)

[celest copper]

it isn't hard at all to play a herbivore over all, a carnivore, if you don't care about playing carnivore then you can call it anything you want once you reach 100% because you don't care to play it

You think it is easier to grow a carnivore because it receives complete diet from "one piece of meat"? then it really seems like you don't play carnivore for fun but rather to make a point that you've played carnivore before, more like only once or four times

[hollow canyon]

"risk"? what in the world are you talking about? Beach is one of the easiest places to get food in.

[celest copper]

If you play carnivore you would understand that your hunger drops significantly, going to the beach as any carnivore, takes time to get there find food and enough to satisfy you hunger