balance-feedback-discussion

[tranquil pawn]

concept art head is much more pog

[somber sphinx]

Thats what i meant, this one looks much better

[tranquil pawn]

yeah

which part?

[alpine plover]

head

[tranquil pawn]

chest do look thin I agree

[tranquil pawn]

nah looks fine imo

[alpine plover]

yea

[somber sphinx]

Tbh, i really like austro’s design

[tranquil pawn]

concept art austro is giga chad, maybe thicker chest though

[alpine plover]

i dont like the fact that they have originial designes mixed with jp ripoffs

[tranquil pawn]

we have austro in jp?

[alpine plover]

utah, rex...

[tranquil pawn]

I'm messin with ya ik you mean utah

[alpine plover]

lol

[tranquil pawn]

rex isn't Jpified apart from sounds which will almost guaranteed be different in evrima

[alpine plover]

it kinda does

[tranquil pawn]

this is this quite different

[alpine plover]

very similar

[tranquil pawn]

the head has very noticeable difference and TI rex looks more... good

[tranquil pawn]

how do you make a rex different? realistic rex doesn't count because the isle

[alpine plover]

idk it just doesn't look right, utah and rex dont belong with the original models they've made

2 different worlds

im gonna go have lunch

[celest copper]

Your right, there both the same species lol, I'm kidding

But they are

[unborn iris]

Carno charge does the same or less damage than teno's normal attacks.

[dusky surge]

it does do a lot of damage, but it's also super telegraphed if you see it coming

it also melts stam like crazy

[spring dawn]

That's kind of besides the point, though. Carno charge should not be able to hit several quadrupedal targets in a row

[unborn iris]

Why.

He went through your head apparently.

That's the only way he's doing anywhere near 30% damage.

[spring dawn]

Because there's no way a carno wouldn't fall flat on its face running into a four legged creature almost its weight class

[unborn iris]

If he hit your body you would stop him and he couldn't. But he aimed it and you were unaware enough and he got you in the head. Both of you.

[spring dawn]

Hitting the body doesn't stop him though

[unborn iris]

Hmm, yeah I think you're right. Carno will because it doesn't get knocked down.

Maybe that's what needs changing, the threshold where you flatten with charge.

But even then.. teno vs carno is pretty teno sided already.

Charge is not very hard to avoid unless they get an actual ambush.

Or you are not paying attention.

[spring dawn]

This was 6 carnos vs 3 tenos :)

[unborn iris]

Then that's a megapack issue.

Teno can have what.. 8 tenos in a group?

[spring dawn]

So, if they decide to take turns charging into you, then you're toast.

[unborn iris]

Carno group size is 3.

[spring dawn]

No carno group size is 6 ...

[unborn iris]

So you are complaining about damage, in reality it's another issue.

No it's not. It's 3.

[spring dawn]

Do you play the game?

[unborn iris]

I do.

[spring dawn]

Are you a carno right now?

[unborn iris]

If you have 6 carnos in a group you are in stress test with growing carnos. Or it's a bug. Carno group size is 3.

[spring dawn]

That's even worse. But there will always be more than 3 carnos in a group - I very rarely ever see only 3.
Regardless of that, charge is still broken as all hell. Great mechanic for small prey hunting, stupid that it can be utilized without backlash against a teno, only 200 kg from the carno's weight

[unborn iris]

Your teno attacks are essentially better than charges.

You can literally cancel a carno charge with tail slam and stun him to get 2 kicks to his face

Which is doing much more than 1 charge.

Megapacks are a problem. But teno requires skill to use right. So a bad teno is going to get facerolled by carnos because it's easier to use.

But.. 6 carnos is definitely a hard fight.

There's a reason they capped the groups at 3.,

[spring dawn]

There's also a reason why the cap doesn't work

[unborn iris]

Exactly. And it's not because charge is OP.

[spring dawn]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on the charge

[unborn iris]

That's fair.

[eternal quiver]

where did you get that goofy ahh number from

[dusky surge]

carno def has a group size of 3 lmao, not 6

[spring dawn]

used to be goofy ahh 6 once

[eternal quiver]

goofy ahh ptera player

[spring dawn]

goofy ahh ptera mains

[eternal quiver]

goofy ahh ptera gets stuck in rock until baby pachy admin joins

[spring dawn]

man that's even goofier than the charge

[eternal quiver]

not goofier than getting pounced by a baby raptor as an adult ptera, flying up and breaking all bones in mid air after the utah gets off

[dusky surge]

this whole discussion is goofy

[spring dawn]

omg i remember that hahaha

[eternal quiver]

cant wait for the new utah pounce teleport feature when update 5 drops

[spring dawn]

so many more rocks to get stuck in

[carmine apex]

i just want the utah to get buffed

feels bad

[hasty coyote]

I dont think utah should be buffed or nerfed yet
Pounce is just broken, so its kinda hard to assess what it needs. Pounce can end up dealing too much bleed, and a buff could make it op. Or it could end up still being weak and a nerf could ruin it.

[frail bobcat]

They need to wait for the pounce to be fixed

[carmine apex]

yeah wait 2030 for pounce to get fixed

[hexed sorrel]

pounce doesnt need a buff or nerf, its just the bite thats kind of useless atm

[dusky surge]

i honestly dont think the bite is that bad

if it was better, it'd defeat the point

[tranquil pawn]

yeah and besides it does its job fine, you can kill pachies solo with bites alone if you dodge well and considering pounce is broken, it's a good way to keep up the bleed

[hexed sorrel]

I dont mean the damage, I mean the bleed of bite needs a slight buff. right now, you cant bleed anything with it, you can only damage kill stuff

Idk, in my opinion I feel like people should have a choice to either bite bleed, which would obviously be a lot harder but still possible rather than just bleeding things with pounce. right now you cannot bleed things out with bite, you can only kill by damage

If utah can only do pounce it would be very predictable

[frail bobcat]

They should nerf the damage and heavily buff the bleed

[dusky surge]

why tho

[obtuse ocean]

Totally agree bleed needs buff

[frail bobcat]

Because the bite is useless in combat against animals that you wont do enough damage to kill it with raw damage, you will bleed a teno out and not kill him

[obtuse ocean]

Lets say you need 3 or 4 bites to kill a sucho as allo, if your in a group of 4 allos. You can just trade bites and win.

[dusky surge]

what does sucho or allo have to do with this discussion about utah lmao

[obtuse ocean]

It was an example of why bleed needed a buff

[dusky surge]

bleed is fine as-is, and we were talking about specifically utah

[obtuse ocean]

So your fine with just trading bites when bigger guys comes ?

[dusky surge]

utah's pounce bleed is fucking insane and can kill any animal with enough pouncing

[dusky surge]

no because each animal will have unique abilities to make combat more than just bite-trades

[obtuse ocean]

yea, but whatever ability you have cant kill whatever thats attacking you in one go. They can still just tank the hit and trade bites.

[dusky surge]

i... don't see what your point is here

combat isn't meant to be one and done

it's meant to be dynamic based on player skill

all abilities in the Isle EVRIMA have SOME relevance to an animal's playstyle

no one is going to just ignore them

[frail bobcat]

But a bleeder should make more bleed than raw damage

[obtuse ocean]

You dont see my point ? If you are sucho and we are 4 allos, and we need 4 hits to kill you. We can trade hits with you. Cus im not gonna die when your attacking me.

[frail bobcat]

And id rather have a low damage/good bleed bite on utah

[golden coral]

Wouldn't that make some sense though. For the things that are small enough that you can kill then, also the things that tend to be good at juking a pounce, you use the bite. Damage over bleed. Meanwhile, for the things with lot of health, that are slower, you use pounce and bleed them out over time. Different hunting method for different prey, and thus different attacks for said prey.

[frail bobcat]

Then give the altbite good bleed but bad damage

[golden coral]

But why?

You have an attack with good bleed, you have an attack with decent bite force but less bleed. If the target needs to be bled out, you pounce. If you can kill it quickly with raw damage, you bite. Why add another bite that just does pounce but worse?

[frail bobcat]

But a bite shouldnt be useless in a battle, its your primary attack after all

[dusky surge]

a bite isnt useless

utahs can, and have, felled tenos and stegos with only bites

[golden coral]

What part of "If you hunt x prey item, bite is good. If you hunt y prey item, pounce is good" means bite is useless in a battle? It just means different prey, different tactics. Instead of biting and pouncing them all. You're better off biting something small and fast moving, because it can be hard to land pounce, you're better of pouncing something slow and big, because you'll take ages to bite them down, as you should.

Utah is still a primary bleeder due to it hunting things with pounce more often than not, but it should still be able to hunt smaller stuff on it's own, which is where the bite fits in better.

Bleeder does not have to mean every single attack does that, just that your primary attacks do it and that your main prey items are handled that way.

[dusky surge]

i agree, the bite has its uses. Utah is agile and quick enough for it to be an extremely non-committal damage/bleed move, and even with its low damage, it still seriously racks up in packs or over time

[keen plover]

buff bite

[hexed sorrel]

just because you saw someone kill a stego with 100+ bites as utah doesnt mean it becomes viable, people have done it, which is extremely impressive. For example, ive seen a carno kill a deino 1v1 does that make carno vs deino a close matchup? no! deino wins almost 100% of the time if they are equally matched

[hexed sorrel]

idk, I feel like utah's bite should do more bleed than damage, you can out-damage a stego rather than bleed it which I think is stupid

if something knows all you'll do is pounce then its just wayy to predictable

[dreamy fiber]

It's 18 bites to the head, 36 to the body.
Utah and stego should no means be a close matchup. Lol
Those numbers seem reasonable to me for a small bite

[hexed sorrel]

what?

36 to the body?

[dreamy fiber]

That's utah v stego yes

[hexed sorrel]

no

it takes 55 bites to the head

basic math

stego head bite multiplier is 2x

55x2 is 110

6000/110...

[calm ibex]

[hexed sorrel]

55 bites to the head it takes

[dreamy fiber]

Mm 🤷 never done it myself, came from the people that can. I'll check when I get home. Can't right now

[hexed sorrel]

its really not that complicated. stegos head damage multiplier is 2x, every other dino is 1.5 except pachy. since its 2x, you do 2x55 which is utahs bite force, the health of stego which is 6000 divided by utahs headshot to stego which is 110. the result is 54.~ which is 55 since you cant do half a bite or less.

maybe even around 60 since the stego will heal during the fight

[alpine nest]

when where the last time you played evrima?

[dusky surge]

two days ago

[alpine nest]

did you try to kill a adult stego or a adult teno only with bites i'm sorry but if you realy did that the stego or teno would be a absolutly noob who did no attacks or where afk

[dusky surge]

i never said i did that

i physically can't since I am forced to play on 100 ping whenever I play

but I've seen it happen, and the tenos and stegos weren't stupid, the utahs were just way smarter

[alpine nest]

i'm playing utah really often and the last time it was possible to kill stego or teno only with bites where 1 year ago when stego and carno where released i don't know where you got that this is still possible

[dusky surge]

watching people do it

thats where i got the idea

[alpine nest]

year people fighting noobs who played the isle evrima for the first time and don't know how to attack

[dusky surge]

no, competent utahs facing off against tenos who are doing their best to kill using a variety of attacks

utahs are just more competent and know how to dodge/weave and attack

[alpine nest]

but if you got hit 1 time you would take a lot of time to get up and the teno could attack you 4 times while you lay down

the utah just need to much time to stand up

[dusky surge]

this is true

that's why the utah is agile and fast

so it can NOT get hit

[alpine nest]

i want to see you trying not to get hit

[frail bobcat]

But a utah bite is not very good in combat against larger animals

[dusky surge]

i wish, but I'm an Australian who can't play on AU servers because they're dead

so it's pretty tough for me

[dusky surge]

and why exactly, should it be

[frail bobcat]

Normally its the utahs fault to get hit because he made a mistake

[alpine nest]

desink

[dusky surge]

you know what IS effective against larger animals? The pounce

[alpine nest]

year this is the only way to bring down larger animals

[dusky surge]

... and?

you think a utah should be BITING a stego to death?

[frail bobcat]

No but a secondary tool would be nice so the combatstyle of the utah can vary even more

[dusky surge]

the bite has its uses against smaller, quicker prey, whereas the pounce serves the purpose of felling larger prey

[dusky surge]

you have a secondary tool, pounce. You can pounce or bite, bite being less risky if you know when to time it and good for keeping bleed going

if the bite is a bleed machine, it'll just fucking kill every smaller animal utah hunts. Dryos will literally run themselves to death because of utah's bleed

[somber sphinx]

@pale wyvern we dont know what troo’s venom would do plus the isle’s wiki is outdated and dont use it for sources, its really bad

[frail bobcat]

I even made a suggestion about utahs alt bite being changed

It solves the problem

[alpine nest]

bite is more risky than pounce because of the turn radius of a teno or the tail attack of a stego also the alt attack of the pachy would bring a utah easily down

[dusky surge]

then attack when they're in animation cooldown, it works well

this is how competent utahs engage their prey

they bait the attack, then punish

[dusky surge]

what needs to be changed about it, it works fine atm

[frail bobcat]

I think he knows how to play utah, he has a raptor as his profice picture

Look at the suggestion

[alpine nest]

you can outplay the cooldown with spaming altattacks

[dusky surge]

every single fucking person with a raptor pfp just wants to buff the shit out of utah until its the best animal in the game

[frail bobcat]

Yes

[frail bobcat]

I dont think so

[dusky surge]

i have seen it literally so many times on this discord

to the point where it's a literal running joke with some mates

[frail bobcat]

Im not saying that the alt bite is too weak

[dusky surge]

i LIKE utah, I DON'T like utah being fucking OP

@frail bobcat why would an attack which utilises utah's claws and mouth do LESS damage than a standard bite lmao

[alpine nest]

no we just want the utah to be fun again and no weak predator which only can eat ai, dryos or hypsis which nobody play

[frail bobcat]

It does more bleed then

[dusky surge]

utah is already one of the best animals in the game, the worst part about it is the buggy pounce. Fix that and the utah might be fucking OP

[frail bobcat]

Not op

[dusky surge]

like, current utah is pretty damn good if the pounce WORKS

[frail bobcat]

Just good

[dusky surge]

yes, OP. Utah is fucking nutty atm

[frail bobcat]

No

[dusky surge]

the only issue with it is the godawful bugs

[frail bobcat]

I wouldnt consider a small tier predator with a good predator and its main ability being linked with a huge cooldown, op

[alpine nest]

utah also should get up faster if getting hit by a teno tail or a pachy bonk! did you see wild dogs which getting hit by a zebras hoofs and got up pretty fast?
why does the utah take so long to get up after got hitten?

[slim dragon]

I'd say because utah is 450 kg and not 30

[frail bobcat]

Its called balance, if a utah gets hit it needs its punishment

[dusky surge]

Great running stamina, great stamina regen, great jump height, great turn speed, great speed, INSANELY GOOD bleed, awesome endurance, good alt-bite

And next update it's getting buffs to missed pounce recovery and other pounce stuff, making it even better. This animal only has bugs holding it back from becoming god-tier

[alpine nest]

yes but not this long that you are surely dead if got hitten

[slim dragon]

I think Utah's get up animation wouldn't feel so long if it was simply more dynamic, like in Monster Hunter or the wolves in Elden Ring (that second example is just something I noticed while watching videos, when a wolf is knocked down it flails around and bites at the air which extends the time it takes getting up without looking like it's lethargic)

[frail bobcat]

Did you see how strong pachy will be in the update?

[dusky surge]

i know you want your epic awesome Blue raptor that can kill a trike with great ease like in JWE2 but a pack of competent utahs without bugs will just be fucking insane

[dusky surge]

and they'll still die to one good pounce despite it all

[frail bobcat]

I normally need 3 pounces to kill a pachy

[dusky surge]

utah is good, it doesn't NEED nerfs, it needs bugfixes, and it ABSOLUTELY does not need buffs

[dusky surge]

if you're getting bucked off in like, 2 seconds, then yea

[alpine nest]

no i just want a animal like in the beginnings of evrima when utah and teno where perfectly ballanced

[dusky surge]

utah was literally fucking broken when EVRIMA came out what the fuck

[frail bobcat]

Agreed, it just needs the change in U5 and the pounce fixed

[dusky surge]

the thing had NO pounce cooldown, INSANE damage on pounce, teno was missing a good few of its attacks, good bite damage, so on

[frail bobcat]

Good that it got nerfed

[dusky surge]

The one good thing about this argument is that it does prove my belief that every single raptor pfp wants raptor to be fucking insanely strong

i literally would call my "main" dinosaur utahraptor. Still don't want it to be super fucking strong tho

[alpine nest]

you really don't play utah right?

[dusky surge]

my favourite animal to play is utahraptor

which is why i hate its bugs

[frail bobcat]

Im maining utah and the only thing I want is this alt bite thingy, but thats not entirely necessary

[dusky surge]

so goddamn much

because the bugs make an otherwise very strong animal fucking dogshit, and in the worst way

[frail bobcat]

Fixed utah will be interesting in the new update, if they fix it

[dusky surge]

you get punished as utah for doing the right thing in combat, and it's such utter ass

this does NOT mean utah needs a buff, mind you, it means utah needs to stop being the buggiest animal in the game

[dreamy fiber]

Other than the bugs, utah is fine. The only thing in the game that I fundamentally disagree with in its balancing is stego.

I don't really main anything though tbh, I just play whatever I feel like at the time tbh

[alpine nest]

they just nerfed the pounce again

[hasty coyote]

A full bucked pounce should generally do 1/3 to 1/2 of pachy’s bleed. Which is basically a death sentence because it can’t run and has terrible bleed regen. And if pachy hits a ram, it forces utah to run, and a lucky leg break is death.

So pachy isn’t going to be op (unless they changed more things I haven’t heard about), the matchup is just based on who hits first and is slightly pachy sided because it can’t run from utah.

[inner lynx]

@pale wyvern Ever heard of pit vipers?

[carmine apex]

i dont feel thats balanced,u get stunned once u died,so u die in 1 hit

[frail bobcat]

No

You can get up again

[hasty coyote]

you won't survive a teno hit, but its easy to bait out those hits and they have a lot of start up and end lag where they are predictable and vulnerable respectively.
And unless a pachy hits a charged ram headshot and alt attacks your head while you're down or gets a leg break, you will live a pachy attack.

[carmine apex]

well then i think my game is bugged,got hit by teno back attack,stunned couldnt get up and dead,got hit a by a carno head attack,stunned then dead,got hit by a pachy head attack,stunned dead

should i be spamming space bar or something to get up faster? cause if u fail pounce(90% of the times its cause its bugged) you are dead 80% of the time

[hasty coyote]

carno ram and steno slam are death, but you can generally avoid them with your mobility. Pachies can not 1-shot you though unless you were already hurt prior.

[frail bobcat]

You can hit pounce pretty reliable if you aim it correctly

[carmine apex]

i aim towards their side and sometimes i just go thourgh them or get stuck on them

and it counts at failed which gets me stunned for 5 secs

[hasty coyote]

yeah thats just pounce bugging, I tend to not take that into consideration with balance, because there are many other bugs that can do stuff like that. hopefully update 5 will fix it.

[carmine apex]

yeah lets hope it does,cause it makes me pretty mad when i die cause the pounce gets bugged or for example if u are able to connect a pounce,sometimes when u decide to jump out you stay on the for example stego tail

or sometimes u get bucked instantly while you were full stam etc...

[hasty coyote]

yep
I even got bugged by a utah before, the utah was stuck floating and the game constantly thought I was being pounced, so I couldnt ram, sit, or even eat. All I could do was move and buck. I managed to fix it, but it took a while lol.

[devout acorn]

@dreamy fiber 23 herbivores that like to body guard downvoted your feedback. They are so obnoxious & it just reminds me how a large portion of the playerbase for this game are actual school age children.

[hasty coyote]

No, its just that this mechanic can cause many, many other issues

you defend your nest from a baby carni? well now you get sick because theres a dead body there
Killed a utah that tried to hop on the rock you're hiding on? guess you're sick now.

didn't know a body was in the bush? guess you got worms.

[frail bobcat]

No mechanic that prevents bodycamping is not abusable

[hasty coyote]

Many people have suggested stuff like it, but its either too strong and abuseable, or too weak and will only hurt people in niche situations.|

the main issues is that there is nothing else to do except combat and we don't have a full ecosystem. If something can kill stegos, then they will likely body guard less. Also, don't go into a herd of dinos expecting to just kill one and be good, these are people, and people have spite and vengeance.

[dreamy fiber]

This was already discussed a lot. Can't help you've missed the discussions on solutions to problems. But all the problems swith bodyguard sickness are avoidable, not a given. It all depends on how the mechanic is implemented.

[carmine apex]

the body guard sucks,im now on EU3 as utah,im starving and 3 tenos are guarding a dead hypsi

so yeah,something should be implementedf

[hasty coyote]

I'm pretty sure I was there, I'm explaining the issues with it to them too. I still don't believe they are all avoidable.

[dreamy fiber]

I do believe they all avoidable and I have enough faith that the devs with a brainstorming session and QA testing could come up with a much better rendition of it than myself in 10 minutes lol

Let alone that you brought up the issues that were pretty much resolved already.

[hasty coyote]

Yes but they way you had it would likely not do anything except hurt nesting and herbies staying in one area. Which is the " too weak and will only hurt people in niche situations" part of my argument. Most body guarding only happens for like 10 mins max, its just that carnivores generally need to eat what they kill because they will starve in that 10 mins.

[devout acorn]

That makes sense I suppose I can understand that. But there has to be some other mechanic that can be implemented to detur herbis from body guarding because as it stands herbis are bigger bullies than carnivores. & I am impartial to both since I play all different dinos. I think a lot of it has to do with a good portion of the playerbase being actual school children. Not all, but definitely a good portion.

[dreamy fiber]

already resolved nesting and combat issues. Herbs can just move if they're not in combat. Over-eating is a niche situation and the game still tackles it. It doesn't have to be a 10 minute timer. I proposed very little, because I don't intend and never intended to work out all the details given that it's a suggestion. If it was something considered further, I'd sit down more on it. But I have no intention of spending 3/4 hours brainstorming the perfect body guard illness for a suggestion on discord lol

I expect that those that read the suggestions be reasonable and realise that, and discuss it in this channel and engage me more if they consider something an issue. It's a big topic with a lot to discuss. That said,I won't run circles around issues already considered and resolved to a standard I'm personally happy with. Does the timer have to be 15-20 mins? no.
Does nesting have to protected with a buffer? No
Does combat have to factor? No
Do all dinosaurs even need to be affected? No
Does it just have to just be herbs affected? No
Basically everything can be swapped and changed. It's not an absolute idea. It's a bare-bones one with a lot to grow, and one that's specifically suggested to combat a problem in the game without restriction the freedom of players to choose to continue to do it if they so desire, but to their disadvantage. I really dont see anything wrong with a bodyguard sickness if it's handled carefully.
It's all relative to what is considered a workable solution which I am not a participant in making because it's an initial spit-ball suggestion. But considering that we all came within reasonable agreement and then it's suddenly not okay at all, idk what to say.

If it's slap-dash and someone removed their brain before implementing it, yeah lol
But I don't think that's gonna get past the drawing board

[pale wyvern]

no

[inner lynx]

Well, they can use their venom as a tracking agent. Most snakes have incredible olfactory systems and have acute senses of smell.

[pale wyvern]

ok but regarding troodon do you think that will help ? most probably he will usless since track is little of help, since they will do around 30 bite force.

EDIT:
I suggest that venom will do something i stated on balance feedback!!

[alpine plover]

@ionic glacier It was diets growth that killed the Dryo playerbase, not the current stats. They were still people playing Dryo in worse cases

[tranquil pawn]

I'm really very sure the venom won't be for tracking seeing as that wouldn't help it kill shit and wouldn't help much anyways 😂

[somber sphinx]

How do you know that? We dont Even know what troo’s venom would do

[hexed sorrel]

it is clear that they wont fix the pounce lol. bugs for it has been here since day 1. so make it better in other ways UNTIL they fix pounce

[obtuse ocean]

We do sorta know, Keep your wits about you. Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear

[somber sphinx]

…thats refering to its mimic not venom

[obtuse ocean]

Ok, i tho the poison would do something about what you see and hear.

[tranquil pawn]

Pretty sure that's Dilo right? Dilo got the hallucinogenic venom right?

[somber sphinx]

Well dilo wil kinda be able to do that

[somber sphinx]

Yep

[tranquil pawn]

Hehehe, got it first Boi!

[somber sphinx]

[tranquil pawn]

[dusky surge]

galliclaw wins

one point for galliclaw

[somber sphinx]

[obtuse ocean]

Why do they then refer that to troodon : P

if thats dilos venom

[tranquil pawn]

[somber sphinx]

Mabye bc it was refering to its mimic or something

[obtuse ocean]

No, mimic is refferd to later on

[tranquil pawn]

Besides in concept art Dilo clearly has the hallucinations venom and troodon does something like weakening or smth

Idk but that teno isn't dying of seeing shit, it's a weak mf

[obtuse ocean]

Darn guys, you guys know more then the devs : P

[tranquil pawn]

Also even if troodon had hallucinogens it would be useless since its bite would prolly be really weak on base damage

[tranquil pawn]

Also dude I didn't say shit about that my guy, we's speculating based on the info they've given us

[dusky surge]

the devs did confirm troodon WON'T have hallucinogens

[obtuse ocean]

Significantly larger than the Troodon, the Dilophosaurus is a predator that favors nocturnal hunting. Equipped with exceptional night vision and a nasty venomous bite, which if inflicted after sunset will leave you wondering what's real... and what's not.

[tranquil pawn]

Oh hello Mr troodon

[obtuse ocean]

This nimble critter, while not particularly dangerous on it's own, can become quite problematic for a wide variety of creatures when operating in a coordinated group through the use of their venomous bite. Keep your wits about you. Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear. This creature is known to mimic certain noises.

[tranquil pawn]

Sounds like hallucinations to me

[tranquil pawn]

I'm aware of the troodon Trello as well but idk man

[tranquil pawn]

Le proof

[obtuse ocean]

yea i dont know what the venom will be, but according to that. They will have some sort of venom that will make you wondring whats going on : P

[tranquil pawn]

The Trello is some times quite inaccurate and Devs change their mind too

[somber sphinx]

«Belive half of what you see and none of what you hear» sounds like that you need to be carefull if you hear a dino bc it could be a troodon but idk

[tranquil pawn]

< Half of what you see

[somber sphinx]

[tranquil pawn]

[obtuse ocean]

yea that is from troodon

[tranquil pawn]

Never know with the isle

[tranquil pawn]

He knows

[obtuse ocean]

Well if we start discussing stuff thats not on the trello, we have no clue what we are talking about : P then its 100% speculation

[tranquil pawn]

[obtuse ocean]

I have no clue either, but reading from that. It looks like it will affect what we see and hear in some way : P

[tranquil pawn]

I hope not because that would be useless for troodon lol, the reason Dilo would have it is because its bite base damage would actually be useful 😂

[somber sphinx]

Dilo kills with bite/bleed and use halucination to confuse the prey 😎👍. Troodon kills with venom😎👍

[obtuse ocean]

lol true, but i got beaten by a few pachys the other day as carno. I could barly see anything at the end : P If i saw that little the troodons could prob bite me 40 times and nothing i could do : P

[tranquil pawn]

[tranquil pawn]

I don't assume it's gonna blind you like head fractures and anyways they still couldn't kill u

[somber sphinx]

People often say that dilo and troo are wery simular but the only thing they have in common is that they are nocturnal

[slim dragon]

and venomous

[somber sphinx]

That too Yeah

[obtuse ocean]

nocturnal is that night hunting ?

[slim dragon]

yes

[obtuse ocean]

Wonder if they will fight eachother at night : P

[slim dragon]

probably not
Since dilo will most likely be around 14x troodon's size, if not more

[obtuse ocean]

yea, but as it said. In groups they can take down alot of dinos : P

[fresh laurel]

ngl I find it really weird how pachy gets more power in groups than Utahs

anyways thats just what I wanted to say

[slim dragon]

You're not going to take down something that can see you clearly in the night, is probably almost as fast as you and may even be immune to venom

[somber sphinx]

Most likely not, troo could go after juvi dilos but not adults

[somber sphinx]

The best action would to take out the children

[obtuse ocean]

if they can only take down a juvi dilo in groups, they not gonna have many stuff to kill

[slim dragon]

Everything doesn't need to be able to kill everything else
Dilo is like the least optimal prey for troodon to take down

[somber sphinx]

I mean, i could see 1 troo killing a juvi dilo but the problem is that the dilo wil be able to see the troodons wich is a pretty good counter against troodons

[obtuse ocean]

ahh yes, if we are talking about counters i totally agree. I was thinking about size wise

[golden coral]

@stoic dawnWhere do you get this idea from that the deino will rival the rex? It's been said it will swim away from a spino more often than not, and you imagine it will what.. go up on land or hunt rexes successfully? Also, irl biteforce is irrelevant, as is irl brainpower, since for the first, game balance, and the second, we're all human minds in dinosaur bodies or however the lore go, not actual dinos so there is that

[somber sphinx]

Pluss deino is supposed to go after mid’d and run away from apexes,

U know, i think the best solution is to nerf deino’s weight so that people dont think its supposed to go after apexes

[golden coral]

I just want to know where this whole "deino vs rex" thing comes from, because that does not seem all that plausible

[somber sphinx]

People go «big gator its supposed to go after apexes»

[golden coral]

And you could, 4T deino could grab and kill everything in the roster just fine, bar stegos that it already can't grab. But then you'd have to nerf stego power, since otherwise a deino caught even for a moment on land just dies.

As it stands, even if it can't "fight" a stego, it can take sufficient hits to move around and away

[somber sphinx]

Yes and i feel like if people want to be bigger they gave to earn in thought elder and they could go up to 8 tons but they cant sustain on fish and it would be Harder to hunt bc they need to be in wider rivers or big waters to hunt than their 4 ton counterpart

[golden coral]

Deino is fine being plenty heavy, in that much sense, it is an apex and not something current roster should hunt. And it can still oneshot everything but too big stegos, which two deinos can hunt if they have to.

[dusky surge]

Hope.

[stoic dawn]

i heard that it would take on rexes, that was months ago they could've changed it but no need to attack me for a simple misunderstanding, i know that irl numbers and stuff wont be put into the game, that'll just cause more inbalancement issues, and I'm fairly certain i put in brackets that's not what i expected for the game, just the comparison of what would actually go down and stated I don't expect that to change for the accuracy of how thinsg wouldve really been, the fact that they most likely had millions of years inbetween them. i get that brainpower and the lore and what not is just how the game is functioned. its just nuts that the stego can repetitively hit a deino while it struggles on the edge of water while the blood thirsty stego has half its body in the water for the kill the 45 degree turn for deino usually for me keeps it in that place where it gets absolutely punted into the ground. im just saying i feel the power that the stegos tail does is too much, if it takes 12 bites for a deino to kill a stego and 4-5 hits for a stego to kill deino i feel is a bit much, i personally think it could be more evenly matched. it often takes more then 2 crocs to take just one stego.. im just saying for my personal opinion that it's a tad bit unbalanced thats my rant and explanation done i shall no longer talk about this to avoid further conflict, thanks for your time.

[stoic dawn]

it is meant to be semi aquatic, both land and water dwelling. shouldn't mean it should get smacked by angry herds even after going for a body just laying 40 meters away for no reason.

[jagged mauve]

I agree

For me it would make sense for dieno headshots to be fatal if it can fit your head completely in its mouth

[slim dragon]

please no

[stoic dawn]

and for how bloody fast that stego can move its head out the way just helps keep its head out of the way

[slim dragon]

Nothing should one-shot a 5-hour growth dino

[somber sphinx]

I agree that stego shouldnt be able to go fishing for deinos but like we said, deino isn’t supposed to go after apexes or atleast animals bigger than 4 tons

[jagged mauve]

It doesn't need to be a oneshot then, just headshots should count

Like a concussion at least

[stoic dawn]

it would make sense but it won't happen, then the croc would be too op. i just think stego tail should do a few less damage that is all

[jagged mauve]

That would be good too

Best solution I think

[somber sphinx]

No, just make it do less dmg in water or slower in water

[stoic dawn]

they should'nt but most times its the stego that picks the fight, thats how it feels to me lol

[somber sphinx]

Here’s How you could win against a stego…swim the other way

[stoic dawn]

that'd be great too, it'd make sense for the tail to swing slower in water because y'know, water and fast= physics... idk it wasn't my strongest subject

[jagged mauve]

I have a question, is the stego on the dieno's diet?

[stoic dawn]

i believe so?

i think maybe

[jagged mauve]

Hmm,,

[golden coral]

Eh.. it's not "semiaquatic" like that no. And yes, if you go up on land and there's big enough things nearby that can kill you, they most likely will. Be it a carni or herbi..

[stoic dawn]

i think hypsi is not on the diet and that is all

[jagged mauve]

If it is, and the matchup currently exists like this, the only way you can get it is by snatching a baby
Which is fine
But if you're not fast enough the parents will clap you
And I feel like they would go out of their way to kill you in revenge, especially if there's more than one stego

Not much of a point I'm just thinking

[stoic dawn]

why have a water creature that can go on land if it'll get bullied if it's meant to be an "apex"

[somber sphinx]

«Apex» in its enviroment, and deinos enviroment is the water

[golden coral]

Because it's not really meant to go on land, and if it does, it's meant to be vunerable? Imagine if you had to migrate between lakes, and you run into a trike or rex or something..

That would be a proper vunerability if anything, since nothing bar spino or cheirus can touch it in the water really

Point is more so, a deino can go up on land yes, but that should be risky, unless it's right by the shore so you can just turn around and retreat should you need it

But going too far inland should absolutely be a bad idea for a deino if there's big enough things around that can pose a threat, or enough numbers of something

[stoic dawn]

anyways I've had my rant, you've had yours. most definitely entertaining for the moderators, just a baby cry fest at this point, I get what you're saying going inland very bad yes, disaster. croc one shot everything but 50% + stego op, carnivore stego 4 hit kill giant croc while it turns to retreat while on the waters edge hmm op, mm yes balanced indeed.

[tranquil pawn]

*gator

[somber sphinx]

[stoic dawn]

fat reptilian

[tranquil pawn]

[dusky surge]

stego should beat deino, otherwise we end up with U3's water rex all over again

and god knows I don't want that

[tranquil pawn]

stego should beat deino *on land

[tranquil pawn]

oh the memories hurt

[stoic dawn]

funny thing is, it can still kill deino with hal it body in the water, thats the unbalanced thing

[dusky surge]

the only situation a deino should be winning is if the stego is like, 50% submerged

[tranquil pawn]

yeah, that

[tranquil pawn]

which currently they go hunting for deinos when 50% submerged

[dusky surge]

i mean...

on one hand, yea, that kinda sucks

on the other, the deino can 100% avoid it

[stoic dawn]

it'd die either way if it's starving

i'd rather attemp the kill then die starving

[tranquil pawn]

yeah lmao

[tranquil pawn]

elite fish go brrrr

[stoic dawn]

I mean I hadn't played for months but I remember them not filling you up much

[tranquil pawn]

yeah nah they upped food values for all carnis, you can survive entirely on elite fish now

[stoic dawn]

neat

[somber sphinx]

A 8 ton gator shouldnt be able to sustain itself on fish

[stoic dawn]

yeah.

[dusky surge]

and yet it does

[tranquil pawn]

^

[golden coral]

Honestly, if a stego is that deep into the river, you could probably have one of the deinos lunge in front and block it from going back on land, and then just bite away at it's face while the other can attack the sides/neck.

[dreamy fiber]

No, you can't do that. It only takes the stego focusing on the land one and that plan is squashed

[golden coral]

The stego would not be able to survive all those bites. And if it tries to turn to aim for the one now in front, it only leaves it's head open for the one in the water. That plus the lunge stun, I really don't see how the stego would make it back on land alive at that point.

[pale wyvern]

in teory the wiki say's Venom will be a track, the statment reference is said from kissenkitty developer with a screenshot https://isle.fandom.com/wiki/Venom_Branch

[tranquil pawn]

yeah the wiki is pretty inaccurate, devs change their mind + this was a while back

[tranquil pawn]

pretty sure that's outdated info

[somber sphinx]

^

Plus the tracking sounds more fiting to Mega

[tranquil pawn]

mhm

would be so useless because the bites are so weak anyways

[somber sphinx]

I mean it could Also get something else with it like How komofo’s venom work + it could smell the prey it bit

[hasty coyote]

If you want, I can explain why it feels like that but isn’t 100% true.

[dreamy fiber]

Well the only problem with that is that the stego absolutely can survive all those bites lol
They can take an absurd amount of hits from a deino as it stands. They basically have no shot of killing them in the water unless they just sit there

[golden coral]

It takes 6 headshots (well, 6 + one other bite anywhere) for a deino to kill a stego so.. no, it can not "tank" two deinos like that, not if one is biting the head/neck and the other biting the side. If two deinos can not kill a stego that is standing that deep, that they can almost swim around it rather than having to crawl on land, then either there's something else going on with how hits work, or those deinos are just outright terrible. Especially since they can just swim lunge/stun at that, in this case, giving at least one of them an extra free hit or two.

[ionic glacier]

For me it was the stats tho.

[dreamy fiber]

I feel like we'd see a whole lot more dead stegos by the water if this was functioning as intended. You'll often get gangs of large deinos just picking at stegos. 3,4 even 5. As it stands, they literally bait deinos at the side and nothing results from deino lunges. Some are willing to sit in the water to test for deinos.

This shouldn't be the case.

Let alone that imo it should be less than 6 head shots. It's head is tiny and if you can't protect it you should be punished. 6 gives too much breathing room. It's pretty easy to not get that many landed on you as a stego, so while the intention for stegos to be weak with their head is there
Functionally, its failing. I don't think it's actually broken but more of a small hotbox is hard to hit situation, which results in them just never getting punished.

I mean this is to the point where I've literally never seen a dead stego outside of a juv.

It's silly

[golden coral]

That's because the deinos are bad players and not thinking things through. What I said with how many hits it takes is true, so.. that's down to the deinos not playing very well. We'd see many more dead stegos by the water if the deinos played better, and if they played smarter, we'd not see any dead deinos since they can escape stegos in the first place.

Deino isn't really meant to punish stego, but they can, as stated. Making it less headshots would only encourage more facetanking, especially in stego vs stego, which is already a terrible matchup. If anything, both playables need more options during combat, more push and pull, so it's not just get close and spam attack.

I mean.. I can't explain it better, the stego is plenty vunerable, it just requires coordination, teamwork, and actually commiting + having a plan in the first place. Far too many times I've seen deinos go in one at a time, trade a bite or two for a swing, then retreat, taking another swing and then they have to sit on the other side of the river to heal. No wonder the stegos get away if they think the approach is to trade bites one at a time and nothing more to it...

If you have three deinos, and the stego is that far into water, there's no way it should survive unless the deinos are just bad at it. The sheer numbers say the stego would run out of health before all three of them do, and that's counting the stego getting almost all of the quick jab angles, and not "wasting" any attacks.

[dreamy fiber]

Imo if they were plenty vulnerable we'd see more go down. As it stands only the best can really do it but it's hard work and dedication on their part. That does seem plenty vulnerable. They're treated like a darned dark souls boss battle which would be fine except for the fact that it just doesn't fit the roster. It's not like deinos should be the only one taking them on either. Imo, they shouldn't for the most part. It should be a terrestrial predator.

And nothing stacks up well except a gang of deinos
Even a body shot from a deino should be significant - not dooming, but felt - tbh and its just not.

[golden coral]

I would agree that deino shouldn't really go after prey it can't lunge and thus drown, since that's it's main mechanic. Issue here then is that the current terrestial predators we have, aren't really good at taking on a stego, and in some cases, not good at taking on anything else really (utahs suffer from this a lot). And yeah, deino bites aren't really felt that much, but that's not so much on the stego but the deino having it's drown mechanic to prioritize. Which means you can't give it too good biteforce, or it'll just use that and well, that would not be the point of the deino then.

We do need a better roster, some hadrosaurs and ceratopsids for the utahs to go after (and more dryos, however that's to be achieved..), and then something properly big for the stegos to contend with. But the second issue has it's own problems, the risk of replacing carno with said bigger predator, and it's potential lack of food aside from stegos, if it's that big.

I also think a part of the issue for the deino/stego matchup remains the hotspot at NW, at least that's where I usually see things go down, which is it's own problem due to not being ideal for deinos to escape from there, unlike the bigger rivers where they are way more untouchable.

[dreamy fiber]

Pretty much. I honestly just think stego was a fat error in behalf of the devs to introduce without a real predator on equal footing with it. Not to beat it, but something to keep each other in check.

Deino feels considerably more stand alone than stego does, and even when it's not you playing it it adds a constant environmental hazard that I enjoy.

Stego, though, has overall had a negative impact on a lot of players experience of the game in its current state and it looks like it won't have a real predator for a while tbh

[golden coral]

It sort of was, especially since it does not feel like stego is a developed playable, but that could just be me. Both deino and stego suffers from rather boring combat, far too.. legacy like I suppose (aside from the lunge, but then that is a questionable mechanic in it's own way due to no counterplay except to just go where deinos can not, which in turn entirely negates the deino as a playable).

[dusky surge]

id say utahs WOULD be decent at stego hunting if their pounce actually worked

[golden coral]

Depends on how we define decent, in comparison to other things, I think :p

[dusky surge]

idk, utah is pretty strong as-is, its greatest weakness imho is its awful bugginess

[golden coral]

But it would at least be more fun for the utahs, if their pounce worked properly!

[dreamy fiber]

That is true. I think the lunge is supposed to be worked on again eventually.
It ahoud probably be more like location and stamina (of deino and prey) result in a thrashing contest. If the deino wins, fine. If they lose, the should be stunned for a few seconds to allow escape.

And yeah utahs are okay at hunting them but it's largely pretty risky for the and the pounce is a major. Issue

And probably always will be..

[golden coral]

Yeah.. the pounce is a bother, but hopefully at some point it can work well enough

[dreamy fiber]

I mn dbears hunt was wild, but the stego even tried to safelog and he totally could've if he'd done it earlier

And thats with a really good hunt on the utahs end tbh

[dusky surge]

honestly, if i WERE to nerf stego, i'd only do one major thing, which is increase the stam for tail swings (at least for now)

i believe you can do like, 20 tail swings before running out of stam

[dreamy fiber]

I'd agree tbh
And.. Get rid of safelog during combat haha

[dusky surge]

i mean, i'd just have sleep be possibly interrupted

you cant really sleep if something is constantly attacking you

[calm ibex]

only thing i'd "nerf" about stego is double check hit registration for head hitbox.
I happened to witness a while ago stego that wanted to die and fed itself to croc, croc landed seemingly perfect headshots and it took 10 bites

[golden coral]

Thats honestly not that much. We had it at 10 way back,and that was just too little from what I can recall.

[dreamy fiber]

Exactly. Get rid of it. It's stupid things can safelog in combat.

[golden coral]

And the problem with interrupting log is well, you can just harass someone and prevent them from logging.

[dreamy fiber]

Find a better place to log

[dusky surge]

i mean, stego's stam regen is pretty dogshit all things considered

i think it has the worst stam regen in the game

[golden coral]

That argument won't hold Frost, what if I need to go and you're a single utah just following me. You get to keep me in the game forever then?

Or you just happen to come across someone logging, which also can be a thing.

[golden coral]

So wouldn't it be pretty bad if you limit the amount of attacks even more then?

[dusky surge]

in the current game, i don't think it NEEDS 20 attacks

When the roster expands, absolutely

[golden coral]

So.. 15 or something then?

[dusky surge]

But this is a game where most animals can be one-tapped by the thing

[dreamy fiber]

It's a niche situation and pretty irrelevant. Don't log with a predator nearby, or anyone. Ever. Let alone that people dc all the time and pose stuff. I'm not gonna cry or be upset about someone who can't time themselves lol

[dusky surge]

i believe it takes 5% stam atm, so you could just make it take, like 6-8%

[golden coral]

No, it's not irrelevant. Adding a feature that allows someone to harass someone else, preventing them from logging out, is kind of bad, no matter if it's a predator nearby, or another fellow herd member, or just an irritating ptera or dryo or troodon that doesn't actually stand a chance at killing you, but can still just prevent you from logging, or force you to just disconnect and then stand there vunerable.

[golden coral]

I guess. But I honestly don't see a reason for it. 20 attacks aren't that much, and you have to count misses and other usage of stamina as well. Don't think there's ever been a situation where it's been a matter of it being able to attack "too much"?

[hasty coyote]

They could make it so that if you take X amount of damage while logging out it auto wakes you up.

[golden coral]

But I suppose 15 or so hits would work, 10 I think was tried and it's just way too low.

[hasty coyote]

so they can make it like stegos won't wake up if a pt is pecking them, but if a pack of raptors are pouncing it and biting, it would wake up.

[dreamy fiber]

If they were so small you cl
Ould just choose not to safelog and be fine, let alone you can kill them I consider it a player issue if you don't know how long you might have and don't leave yourself time to find safe places to be. The only people who combat log rn are those in trouble.

It is possible that it could be that you can't combat log below a certain health threshold

So below 50% or something

[golden coral]

So I should be forced to stay in game vunerable because.. no good reason? Besides, you can't combat log anyway, since you have to lie down and rest. Meaning you are fully vunerable, if that's not enough to kill, then you shouldn't be messing with the thing in the first place really. No matter how you change it, at some point it can be abused and you can harass people, which is just a bad idea, and there's no reason to add that. And it's not just a matter of finding a "safe place", like I said, what if someone just follows you. Not like you can prevent that if you're the bigger and slower target.

Not all playables have the luxury of having out of reach spots they can abuse :p

[dreamy fiber]

Tbh most people re reasonable to leave themselves time already since you need to account for if you're attacked by a legitimate threat already. If you let yourself be tracked and followed I mean, that's part of the game. Should've left yourself time. I ha e zero sympathy for people who can't leave time for themselves, it's a player error.

And the problem is that everything is killable but people try to log in desperation and can succeed. They shouldn't.

And, say, which. I hate having to cover every little detail but, if something like a hypsi attacked a stego and there was a 50% threshold, it's never. Gonna get there.

If it can get there, it's a significant threat. And shouldn't have been ignored in the first place

[golden coral]

It has nothing to do with time. But I could say the same then, I have zero sympathy for a player that can't kill their target in the 60 seconds of complete vunerability it has. No need to make it easier for bad players then? You're also entirely missing the point of being unable to get rid of the "threat", since if you're slower, what are you supposed to do?

And how would you fix playables that can just reach some place where the hunter can not and log safely from there?

[dreamy fiber]

But it's nothing to do with being bad. A difficult and hard fight in TI can drag on for 30, 40 minutes. There's nothing bad about taking time, it's being careful. Lol

Its purely unsportsmanlike and rude to log after like, 15/20 minutes of fighting someone because you're losing.

Moreover, it's not like combat logging is unique to the Isle ice played lots of games with it. Never had an issue, and with one with considerably more problematic systems that the one proposed here.

furthermore idc about creatures being able to get to inaccessible locations by their hunter. If they knowhow to get there and cab achieve that, they deserve the escape.

It's fundamentally a part of the games design that some creatures can tackle obstacles others cant

[golden coral]

But in both cases you lose the target you worked hard to get. You might not care, but I would most likely be just as unhappy in both cases. And it does have to do with you being bad and not choosing a good target, at least partially. There are very few hunts that would take that long, and in almost no case can the target just lie down and safely get out during such circumstances. So it's not really an issue in the first place if it does happen once in a blue moon.

If you can come up with a way to "fix" it while still letting people log as they see fit and not be forced to stay in game or be extra vunerable, by all means go ahead. But saying that you shouldn't be able to log because someone happened upon you, or decided to follow you after a battle or something, does not sound fun at all to me, nor a useful mechanic for an issue that doesn't really exist anymore (unlike in legacy where you could actually argue that you could just log during combat more or less safely).

@dreamy fiberYou know, there's one way to handle it. Make it so that if you have achieved lethal levels of bleed, you can log, but your character just dies. Lethal leves as in, no matter what you do, be it immediate wallowing + resting, you're going to bleed out anyway. That's the only circumstance that would also need it for that matter.

[dreamy fiber]

No. Its not a bad pick. Some people pick these targets specifically because they're hard and tat is part of the audience of the Isle. They exist, and even without them people shouldn't log for a 10 or 5 minute fight either. That's just the extreme. So it's not a once in a blue moon scenario, it's an extreme example from a small portion of the player base who'd benefit the most.

But no, if you're combat logging you're a jerk and your should be vulnerable. I haven't played a single game where combat logging punishments have not improved my experience, I doubt the Isle would be different.

And frankly, the people who suffer most from combat log issues aren't people paying attention. They're usually people who have no control and who d/c, but if this is an issue specially squared on safe logging, I don't have any issues.

So, yeah, my opinion is that if you're combat logging you should be vulnerable. I don't intend to think of a solution where you wouldn't be, because safe logging is by nature making you vulnerable anyway.

And to be honest moast combat logging solutions don't allow you to correct yourself. This rendition is pretty nice. If you're really stuck you'd just have to not safe log and quit, by that's dependent on the player.

(most are active punishments. Time out, remove progress etc)

[golden coral]

It's very much a once in blue moon that something logs like that, much less pulls it off, so that would be a bad pick. Well, I don't know what kind of games you've played, but clearly we disagree on the issue there. I don't think "combat logging" especially in the Isle where you can't do so without being extremely vunerable, is an issue. And what you want is already in, if you're lying there, sleeping, how is that not vunerable to you? You very much are vunerable, so then there should be no issue here even for you. Also sounds like most of those solutions are rather terrible honestly. Maybe they work for a game with less investment of time and effort. If you don't want to think of a solution that prevents harassment and stopping someone from logging at all, then you're fine with letting someone prevent someone else from logging entirely. You don't want vunerabilities, you want to control what someone else does.

You're arguing for vunerability while logging, which is exactly what safelogging is. And if you just disconnect, you're standing there for 5 min, perfectly vunerable to everything that should even attempt to attack you in the first place.

So yes, your "someone can safelog and survive" is very much a rare case if they're trying to do so while in combat or even close to it. Unless you regularily try to take on things you shouldn't take on by yourself and somehow let them lie there and just log on you?

[dreamy fiber]

Someone can safelog in combat and survive. The intended purpose of safelog is not for you to use it to escape combat. I would gladly have it so that if you use safelog to combat log you lose your Dino, but I think being woken is considerably fairer. (with th 50% health threshold, or even 25%).

But the reality, as it stands, is a stego can and could get away from utah packs. That's a threat and safe logging should not be used while your getting attacked. This problem will become bigger as larger and tanker playable are introduced.

Can you reasonably be harassed with a health threshold? To some extent. You'd have to already be hurt, but there's pros and cons to doing everything. I don't expect perfection.

Why is some form of combat log solution necessary? Because the primary gameplay loop revolves around sustaining yourself with food and water. Ignoring the extreme scenarios for now, allowing combat logging to deny someone your death actively deprives them of the resources they require to continue which rocks the foundation of the game. It is therefore a significant problem and should be addressed more harshly. I view the solution proposed as very light in comparison to similar games, but better .

Into the extreme example. Do i play this way? No. ButI will gladly stick my neck out and say those who do go for a challenge deserve as much respect as any other player in this topic. Just because they pick a challenge does not mean they deserve to be ignored or logged on. This is a way some people like to play, and I personally prioritise people who are playing that way respectfully over someone who might get upset that they couldnt escape by just exiting the game.

So yes we can fundamentally disagree. But any game with a heavy combat focus needs to address combat logging aptly. There's loads of variations already out there, but blocking the use of safe log is pretty appropriate for the Isle.

[golden coral]

No matter how you put a threshold, it can and will be abused. It will not work out, because there are circumstances where you will be able to harass someone at those points. And like I said, you can not log "in combat" and survive unless it's vey specific, once in a blue moon circumstances, where you're trying to attack something you really should not. I expect solutions that does not allow for players to harass others, and I'd take the extremely rare "combat log" over more likely harassment more often. And no, a stego can not, not from a utah pack. I counted the damage, and if it just lie down and starts to safelog, it will most likely not survive, unless it's somehow wedged itself in a position where you can not get to it, and I'd consider that fair, like jumping on a rock or similar. Even deino if it just lies down to safelog woud be killed by sufficient amount of utahs before it actually gets out. And that's with utahs rather "poor" damage.

Also how would you even figure out when a safelog is used "for combat" for that matter. That seems like one of those "stress system" issues honestly. There is no need for a solution to a problem that does not exist, or does not exist in any noticable manner. Not to mention like I said, using terrain can do the same thing. Allowing something to reach an for others unreachable spot does exactly the same thing, this sounds more like one of those "it feels okay in this case, but not in that case", but that's not logical. No, going for a challenge is .. not exactly ideal in a survival game, if you want to risk it, fine, but that's just it, you're risking something. You might want to favour "stupid" players like that, I prefer to favour "smart" players I suppose, logging or no logging.

And you can call your solution "light", or whatever, but it's still a bad solution as far as I'm concerned. Any mechanic that allows for players to control someone else and their ability to play/leave the game like that is bad, simple as that. And the game is survival before combat, so.. again, if this was a common occurence and an actual issue, then maybe, but it's not. And no, blocking logout is never good. You're also not taking situations into account such as protecting someone until they log, and so on. So far I've yet to see any "variation" of combat log that can't be abused or misused in some way, shape, or form.

And again, you can not "combat log" in the Isle. You have to lie down and be extremely vunerable to safe log, and if you don't, you just stand there for 5 min and can do nothing at all cause you're out of the game entirely. That is plenty enough vunerability to avoid any but the most rare, extreme circumstances, and that's plenty good enough, without a doubt.

And if it's a matter of utahs and their bleed vs a stego or deino, then I offered a simple fix for that. Just make it so that if a playable has accumulated lethal bleed (as in no amount of wallowing + resting will save you, you will die no matter what), and you log, your playable dies. There you go, now there's no reason to add anything else, because anything that can't kill the sleeping thing in 30-50 seconds by raw damage on the most vunerable parts, should not be going after it.

[golden coral]

There's no need for any of that. What you're describing is a non-issue and the one circumstance where it could possibly be argued for, I have already offered a "fix" for that does not allow for any potential abuse issues.

Larger and tankier playables should perhaps not be hunted by smaller and weaker ones. There could be a limit to that after all. And for the whole "denial of food", this can be done in a few ways already. Not to mention you can still have the whole jump on a rock before bleeding out or down somewhere where the target can not get to you without dying themselves and so on. Can't see how that's any more fun to deal with, but maybe I care more about the results than you do.

[thin mantle]

No Erik, you’re simply wrong. I as a Troodon player should force an Anky player to stay in the game as long as I’m still alive… otherwise it’d be unfair food denial

[golden coral]

Because that makes sense to you? Look, if there's a need for a "fix" for bleeders, that can probably be arranged. But there's no need to add something like "you can't safelog during combat", however that's supposed to be measured, because you can protect a fellow player while they log, you can just make enough distance (such as a carno or something) and then log, and so on.

If you can't kill something lying there, completely open, then you chose the wrong target.

[thin mantle]

@alpine plover Stego can’t fish for deinos, this is not a possible behaviors unless the deino is completely unaware of the rest of the river it’s in. If you lack the skill to solo that stego or you think that stego is too good, or has group mates, or you lack group mates…. Swim…. Away. You have the entire river system at your disposal in which you cannot be detected or tracked unless you’re bleeding horrendously, you can also just cross the river and rest there if you’re bleeding, then go back to the rivers when you’re undetectable.
The mistake is assuming that deino should be a 1v1 matchup with stego on equal footing. Stego already does become massively disadvantaged in water, when it’s swimming. If it’s swimming it physically cannot attack you, if you have 3 deinos you can make a kill box with your own hitboxes and deny the stego any escape route, you can bring a friend and have one of you lunge stun the stego while you get 2 of your 6 necessary headshots, then rinse repeat till the stego dies….

So many options for deinos, and I can’t stress enough how “simply leaving” is a totally reasonable and viable option.

[azure crescent]

✅

[golden coral]

I do think making stamina cost doubled if you're deep enough to be affected by the depth (can only walk or slow run), could be helpful. That way you can also remove that for things like teno or semiaquatic stuff, giving them a defensive advantage if you try to go after them there instead of wating for them to come further inland. Could also add more than just "swim" as a method of counter.

[alpine plover]

a

herbs shouldn't be so aggressive, they need to be punished for that

[dusky surge]

someone post the gif

[thin mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/beasts-of-bermuda-kaperoo-the-isle-path-of-titans-gif-23526654

[alpine plover]

exactly

[dusky surge]

i dont think he got the joke

[thin mantle]

Irony...

[alpine plover]

im not stupid

im just being serious

[thin mantle]

So then I'd ask, why should herbivores be punished arbitrarily for simply being aggressive

That's not at all out of character

[alpine plover]

because its fucking annoyinh

indeed it isn't

[thin mantle]

Oh, well if that's where we're at, then I hope this isn't a dealbreaker issue for you, them being allowed that behavior is never changing

[alpine plover]

you'll never know

it doesn't make sense to me

[alpine plover]

btw i didn't read what you said, its too long

[thin mantle]

Hippos, Moose, any species of Buffalo, elephants, etc....there are many examples of it absolutely being a common and consistent part of their behavior

[alpine plover]

its a game

[thin mantle]

Then you're not invested in seeing what you wish to see changed, changed. Discussions like that one are common if not necessary for your idea to be accepted or integrated

[thin mantle]

Then what about it doesn't make sense

[alpine plover]

nah dude its just too long to read and im lazy, in fact i only read the first sentence of this message

[thin mantle]

Oh, well then have a nice day. Not worth the effort. Woulda loved to have had an actual discussion

[alpine plover]

not my fault, i dont like long texts

[golden coral]

It is, and we're humans playing as dinosaurs. You can't apply animal logic, since players will do as they see fit more often than not.

[alpine plover]

thats why getting punished for doing that is the only way you can prevent them from doing that

[thin mantle]

Thats....just hilarious

[golden coral]

But why punish them? Why isn't it fine to charge at whatever you want to try and kill it? I mean, I'm all for discouraging mindless fighting, but that should really go for everyone then. And most people enjoy the combat and want to fight more often than not so.. not sure that'd be a popular idea.

[alpine plover]

it ruins the immersion and its annoying

stegos can't just go invade and rule deino's natural habitat like that

[thin mantle]

They can't, as soon as they start swimming they're powerless

[alpine plover]

they can reach very far with that big ass tail

[thin mantle]

Ok....this is a problem why?

[alpine plover]

no

[thin mantle]

If you swim 4 meters to the left or right they can't even see you

Stego's aren't a threat unless you allow them to be

[alpine plover]

its not about escaping

its annoying to see

[thin mantle]

Well, as I said before, hope that's not deal breaking for you

[alpine plover]

if you really wanna talk about animals in real life elephants and hippos dont go randomly chasing after stuff, unless you're invading their terrotory they wont touch you

[thin mantle]

I guess theres nothing to say other than you're factually wrong

and it's just a game

[golden coral]

It can't really. It comes down to deinos lack of understanding on how to approach the fight. Or just.. swimming away and calling it a day.

[alpine plover]

seriously?

[alpine plover]

they're statistically better than deinos anyway

[thin mantle]

Yep! It's future threat removal, although moose and hippos just do it for the shits and gigs, happens around here all the time with the former

[golden coral]

But anyway, deinos can handle stegos, especially if the stegos "invade" the water, they just need to approach it correctly.

[thin mantle]

Aside from hp bleed pool bleed resistance regen and safety

[alpine plover]

its basically a 25/75

[golden coral]

Eh.. yes and no. Deino has superior health, blood pool, blood resist, and general survivability and ability to avoid the stego better than the stego can avoid the deino, more or less.

[golden coral]

For a solo deino, yes. For two deinos vs a solo stego, no, that's 75/25 to the deinos.

[alpine plover]

stegos attack damage is double deino's attack damage, while deino's hp isn't double the stego's hp so its really just a loss

[thin mantle]

Ok, but they're not intended to be equivalent creatures

So this isn't an issue

[golden coral]

You don't need double to have better stats. Meanwhile stego has a vunerable head while deino has "normal" multilplier there, if you want to compare damage in some way.

[alpine plover]

@thin mantle

[thin mantle]

Right, I agree with all of this

[alpine plover]

its hard to reach the head since the tail is mostly pointed towards you and there isn't really a way to hit the head unless the stego is stupid enough

[thin mantle]

That's why you bring a friend or be strategic/stealthy to get 2 headshots off before it turns

[alpine plover]

if you're in vc

[thin mantle]

It isn't a problem that stego is able to make it's primarily weakness difficult to reach against single targets

[thin mantle]

Well, I've done this many times with randoms using in game chat so no

[alpine plover]

dude it was just an answer to erik's comment

[golden coral]

There is if you have two deinos, you cooperate, and you plan the attack. Which is key parts of what deinos has to do to hunt a stego. Since the stego can't just be grabbed, it requires a bit more finesse.

[thin mantle]

Ok?

[alpine plover]

its not that easy to cooperate and "plan" through text

[thin mantle]

No it's not, but it can be done.

[alpine plover]

and most of the times there are atleast 2 stegos

[thin mantle]

Then don't attack them

[golden coral]

It.. kind of is to be honest. You can talk about what each of you will do and so on.

[thin mantle]

That's just a bad idea

[golden coral]

Plan generally also means you have something figured out before you attack, and you can certainly talk that out

[thin mantle]

Pre-established strategies :D

[alpine plover]

most people ignore what you say, atleast in my experience

[thin mantle]

Then take that as a missed opportunity, either that or play with a friend

[alpine plover]

step 1: have a friend

[thin mantle]

If you lack a friend to play with, and you're not confident fighting a stego alone, don't fight them

[golden coral]

Well.. I can't really help you there. I was mostly pointing out that you can, especially as deino in the water safely, talk with the other guy, plan out an approach, and so on. And you don't need someone to tell you in VC "go", you can have already agreed that when you lunge, the other guy goes in for an attack from this angle. And so on.

[alpine plover]

it goes back to what i said, this shouldn't happen, you shouldn't just ignore

[thin mantle]

And why is that, why should deino be stronger than stego

[alpine plover]

now you're putting words in my mouth

[thin mantle]

Oh sorry about that, why should stego be hydrophobic

[alpine plover]

i never said deino should be stronger than stego, if deinos go on land, stegos have the upperhand, same thing if a stego goes in water, instead stegos could just go in both water and land and still have the upperhand

[thin mantle]

No they don't, if a stego goes for a swim it literally can't defend itself

It only has it's 40 dmg bite

[alpine plover]

you can go almost half way in the river and not swim

[thin mantle]

Ok, and this is a problem why?

[alpine plover]

doesn't matter if you swim or not, you're in water, you're invading deino's territory

[thin mantle]

Ok, and again, this is a problem why

Why must deino have it's sacred holy ground

[alpine plover]

im not saying they shouldn't invade their territory, BUT they should get punished for that

[alpine plover]

balance reasons duh

[thin mantle]

They do, if 2 deino's exist they can take the stego down

[alpine plover]

have you ever tried to kill a stego?

[thin mantle]

Well...no not at all, deino doesn't under any circumstances have to fight a stego

[thin mantle]

As a deino I've killed roughly 30 since U3

[alpine plover]

lying is a sin

god's watching

[thin mantle]

Well...ok...not doing that so we must be good. Moving on

[alpine plover]

moving on to what

[thin mantle]

Moving onto whatever point you're trying to make

Because I'm still confused why this isn't something you can just fix by....swimming to the left or right

[alpine plover]

its not balanced

[thin mantle]

Deino doesn't have to fight stego, and you can effortlessly escape them, so it is balanced

[alpine plover]

deino is still in disadvantage whether its in water or ground while stego in in advantage in both cases

[alpine plover]

it comes to creature balancing not how the player acts

[thin mantle]

Stop ignoring the fact that a swimming stego cannot defend itself, and I still don't understand why deino being at a disadvantage when a stego is still standing, on the shore or not, is a problem

[thin mantle]

Player actions are absolutely a balancing element, if you can escape a target stronger than you, your creature is balanced

One of the few rules of balance in this game

[alpine plover]

stop ignoring the fact that stegos can reach till half lenght of the river if you consider the tail

[thin mantle]

Oh I'm not, swim left or right, you're literally invisible underwater

You're not forced to stay in a stegos range

[alpine plover]

you keep bringing up "it can swim away" I KNOW THAT, what im saying the creature has advantage in both cases when it shouldn't

[thin mantle]

Why shouldn't it....

[alpine plover]

cuz its a fucking LAND animal

not a fucking hybrid

[thin mantle]

And that matters why?

Again, it's still standing, it's not swimming

[alpine plover]

you say "why" way too many times

[thin mantle]

Because you don't give reasons, so I have to keep asking

[alpine plover]

"not a reason"

[thin mantle]

It's not a valid one, I have literally no idea what about stego being a land animal means that it should be disadvantaged when wading at a depth it can still ground itself

Especially since a swimming stego has no defenses

[hasty coyote]

I'm just going to put this out because its what started the conversation: most herbies need to strike first.
I'm mainly looking at pachies, if they get hit first, they will likely lose the fight.

[thin mantle]

Mhm, it's in all herbivore players best interest to dispose of future threats

It's deciding whether you can do so without dying or substantially injuring yourself which is what keeps you from doing that to all potential threats

[hasty coyote]

I understand its annoying when people go out of their way to chase you down and kill you, but they're people. Carnivores over hunt as well.

[thin mantle]

Appraising the situation, etc

[hasty coyote]

And stego "fishing" will be fixed when stegos actually have a threat. They only do it because they're bored and they can.

[alpine plover]

and they shouldn't

they made stego become an apex at this point

[hasty coyote]

no, but the opposite of crocs being able to consistently win would be worse

[hasty coyote]

it and croc are both apexes

[golden coral]

Stego is an apex?

[thin mantle]

Well, it is....

[alpine plover]

stego is the apex of the apexes

FOR NOW

[thin mantle]

Strongest creature in game currently, won't always be, and that position won't be uprooted by deino of all things

[golden coral]

No, it's more or less meant to be an apex, and will probably be buffed in the future.

You know, when we got things like rex and other terrifying stuff in

[alpine plover]

stego is not an apex

[golden coral]

It is..

And it has some room to be buffed for that as well

[alpine plover]

it isnt

[thin mantle]

It absolutely is

[alpine plover]

as of now stego is pretty much an apex

I’d put it as more of a pseudo once bigger stuff is added, if it’s initial weight is kept of course

[golden coral]

Except it is. No idea why you'd think it's not. It can come in at 7-8T, that's plenty large enough.

[alpine plover]

at max stego is a low high tier

[hasty coyote]

yes, but its better to have 2 apexs and one stomps the other, than to have 1 apex that stomps literally the entire roster and is unavoidable.
Stegos you can always move away from, but you are FORCED to go to the water with crocs

[hasty coyote]

stego and deino are both considered apexes

[alpine plover]

for now

[hasty coyote]

acro and alberto are the top of large

[thin mantle]

Imagine having 1 matchup in game where you're even at a disadvantage....that's deino rn

[golden coral]

No, they are. Just because there's other even more powerful stuff doesn't mean they're not apexes..

[alpine plover]

im gonna go have lunch

nice conversation

[thin mantle]

👋

[hasty coyote]

no, it is just considered an apex. Along with rex, trike, shant, giga, and anky(i think) and there are likely more i can't remember.

[thin mantle]

If spinos CA is anything to go on, anky will be massive

[hasty coyote]

oh yeah, forgot about spino lol

[eager ledge]

I hope anky big because I know they very big irl do you guys know how big they will be ?

[verbal zenith]

I hope they keep deino as a apex. Direct carni water apexs of Spino and Deino while land carni apex would be gigas and rex's. Helps with balancing cause if a spino can flee into water (which they likely will cause better swim) but insures that the water wouldn't be a guaranteed safe.

just a check and balance

[golden coral]

From what's been said, spino would be the stronger apex, with deino being better off swimming away more often than not.

[eager ledge]

How big is the spino going to have they said

Typo

[golden coral]

No idea, but most likely plenty big and powerful, being that it's JP inspired and all.

[eager ledge]

Oh it’s that one

[hasty coyote]

They should be about irl sized, so absolutely massive. However, I’m not sure what they’re going to do with the apexes, since the only mid tier so far is carno. So I’ll just wait and see what they decide to do with my boy.

So hopefully they will finish the smalls soon and work up the food chain.

[eager ledge]

It will be interesting when the duck with therizino claws is done

[eager ledge]

Biepi

[hasty coyote]

Deinocherius is also coming, which is just an apex sized beipi

[eager ledge]

True

[alpine plover]

https://tenor.com/view/deinocheirus-prehistoric-planet-pp-deino-duck-gif-25447955

[stark knoll]

@obtuse bison Legacy won't receive any balance updates

[dusky surge]

stego and deino are confirmed, by developers, to be apex, now and forever

[tall bronze]

[dusky surge]

what's sad about that lmao

[harsh lark]

power creep

[dusky surge]

how?

how is stego and deino being apexes = power creep? Wouldn't them being large-tiers mean more power creep when ACTUAL apexes come in?

[harsh lark]

idk how you can miss the point and loop logic that hard so let me just illustrate it to you

[alpine plover]

Talk to em

[harsh lark]

Everyone else _____power gap Stego/Deino_______________power gap_______Spino/Rex (Apexes confirmed to be able to take on Steg/Deino with ease)

[dusky surge]

why the fuck would they add rex and spino and let them "take on [deino/steg] with ease"? That kind of defeats the point of an ecosystem if another animal fucking destroys them

[harsh lark]

are you dense?

[dusky surge]

it's not like steg is outrunning rex my good man

[harsh lark]

the devs have literally said "Deino would rather swim away from spino"

and spino/rex are both larger than stego/deino

[frail bobcat]

*rather

[hasty coyote]

would rather =/= lose every time

[harsh lark]

there is going to be a confirmed power gap between Stego/Deino and Spino/Rex

[frail bobcat]

A utah would rather run away from a carno too

[dusky surge]

doesn't mean it has to, nor does it mean it consistently loses. It means the engagement itself is not ideal, and the deino can easily choose to evade the spino rather than take an unnecessary fight

[harsh lark]

which means there will be an ENORMOUS gap between Spino/Rex and everyone already below Stego/Deino

A deino can already walk into a meat grinder and shrug it off, imagine what a spino will do lmao

[dusky surge]

how the fuck can you balance a power gap between stego and rex? Stego can't outrun or outswim the rex, so what's it going to do, eat grass and die?

[hasty coyote]

If they do that, then rex and spino would have to slow af, like cripplingly slow.

[dusky surge]

you'd have to make rex literally crippled speed in order to allow it to be an "apex" to stego

which frankly, would fucking suck for rexes

[hasty coyote]

and before you say it, dont you dare say "herd up"

[harsh lark]

stop and think for a second instead of typing out outrage posts like im saying something too shocking to comprehend.

even if you ignore what the devs have said

[dusky surge]

which im not doing

[frail bobcat]

A dino needs to be viable solo, if its just better in a herd, it is what it is

[harsh lark]

based off the current weight=hp balancing you can already see that Rex/Spino will weigh more than Stego and Deino, which means being more tanky

[frail bobcat]

Which does not mean that they will be much stronger

[harsh lark]

???? do you miss what game we're playing right now?

[hasty coyote]

deino has more hp than steg, but steg still wins the fight

[dusky surge]

this is 100% true. Doesn't prove that they stomp these animals every time, but at least this much is confirmed true

[frail bobcat]

Spino had the most health in legacy too. Guess whos the best apex in legacy?

[slim dragon]

Yes

[mental roost]

I kind of feel like saying it's an "enormous" gap is a little bit of an...exaggeration?? It's theoretically possible to avoid huge power creep; just difficult to do so I guess and something the team should look out for.

[dusky surge]

how i see the spino vs deino matchup going is that neither animal will have much desire to do anything with each other. Deino's high bite force, water speed and bleed resist vs spino's high weight and health pool make them frustrating for the other animal to face, so I'd just see them generally not paying much heed to each other, rather than spino somehow "hunting" deino

[harsh lark]

why are you people so caught up on X VS Y DUEL WHO WINS it's baseless theory crafting. My point is that Stego/Deino are already practically unstoppable ingame as is, and yet the devs intend on adding things which will make even them turn tail. Thats the textbook definition of power creep, if this game ever gets to the point where it adds something like shant, you will see Teno players once in a blue moon.

[dusky surge]

any apex is going to make another apex turn tail

[harsh lark]

Forget the individual X vs Y balancing, it doesn't matter, because the games entire power scaling as a whole is fucking itself up big time

[dusky surge]

thats how apexes are

[slim dragon]

Stego and deino aren't "op" per say
They just have no contenders

[mental roost]

I'd be fine with Spino being able to "persuade" Deino to move around a little bit more. Not an active hunting situation but just a little push.

-The ecosystem of the game in general is well for the future and even right now.....weird.

[frail bobcat]

Do you know difficult it will be to grow apexes when other apexes are out and the mid tiers that can kill them in their juvie stages?

[dusky surge]

there's not going to be some insane power gap. Spino and rex will have their perks, deino and stego will have theirs, there is nothing stating that one of these apex pairs always stomps the other

[mental roost]

Also still worries me how long Troodon will actally be played unless the mechanics are enjoyable enough to make up for it

[harsh lark]

not again with the "this will be balanced by how hard it is to play!!!" that has never worked since progression was made 5 years ago.
Apexes are not hard to get in Isle, not hard to get in BOB, and not hard to get in POT, and they will never be difficult in any of them. People grew Hypo Rexes when they were in progression, they grow 3.0 apatos in BOB and in POT they grow enough spinos to fill the whole character select.

If you make Apexes a free ride once they get to adult they will inevitably fill up and take over a server, because no matter what growth initiation frying pan you throw them into it can always be bypassed.

[dusky surge]

this is fine, but the idea of deino being somehow "hunted" by spino is just ridiculous to me

[frail bobcat]

You dont know how hard it will be to get apexes, but I think they will find a way to make it fair

[dusky surge]

stego is already really hard to grow imho, to the point i've just given up trying and played less punishing animals, so I think the Isle honestly stands the best chance of actually having difficult growth on apexes

[hasty coyote]

that is the issue of this game, most people will gravitate owards the larger dinos. However, there are many ways to combat this. My favorite 2 would be to give smaller dinos much more interesting mechanics and attacks and to make apexes hard to sustain.

hypsi is getting climb, spit, and super jump. Meanwhile stego just gets a tail swing. So, hypsi is smaller, but much more interesting to play.

To make apexes hard to sustain, just limit their food much more than other herbivores. Pachies should be able to feed a full herd of 8, maybe scuffle over who gets the last melon. On the other hand, apexes like stego would be fighting over who gets the pumpkin and who has to keep searching.
Carni apexes would also require a lot more food to fill them. A kill on a stego could feed an entire raptor pack for days, but a rex would need to kill a stego just to feed a pair for a day.

[harsh lark]

Except we already know how hard apexes are to grow because we've already seen it done in three seperate games now. It doesn't matter what hoops the devs force you to jump into because everyone can bypass them by abusing things like megapacking or logging in only during low activity hours.

[frail bobcat]

Just make them have diet from the start on and there gonna be much harder to grow

[harsh lark]

No??? Its really not a "do it and done" easy fix solution, otherwise this problem would have been solved years ago.

[frail bobcat]

What are you complaining about again?

[harsh lark]

You hit the nail on the head with apexes being hard to sustain. Unfortunately no game accomplishes this and Apexes just tend to be an easy ride once they hit adult, being EASIER rather than harder to sustain of all things. Diets really should of done this for Isle but the plant spawns on Spiro are way too lenient. The only time we ever encountered serious resource scarcity was during the update 4 stress tests.

[harsh lark]

Just read the post history if you can't keep up with the convo.

[obtuse ocean]

If its gonna be hard to grow a carni apex and substain it, you need make it really hard to be in herds aswell. If a rex kills a trike, in can prob get one shotted by a pachy after that fight. So noone wold attack anything.

[hasty coyote]

well update 5 seems to be helping with scarcity, such as coco trees only having like 5 rather than like 30 each

[frail bobcat]

And a apex maybe is a thing you wouldnt want in your herd, simply because of how much it eats

[obtuse ocean]

yea, they need to nerf the food. I hope we dont see big groups of rexes etc. Cus they need to be that many since herds are big

[harsh lark]

its hard to truly limit apexes with food because we're not forced to stay ingame until we starve to death. If someones working with a discord group they can just log off and have their pack/herd tell them when food respawned/arrived. Basically what people did with Hypo rexes when those were in Prog.

[frail bobcat]

They should just make it that they have to hunt players because they cant sustain themselfes on AI when fully grown

[obtuse ocean]

yea, but your not gonna hunt anything big if the herds are big. Since you gonna die even if you kill a trike. Since they will just attack you after when your hurt

[hasty coyote]

exactly what I was going for with my part, herbivore apexes should be just as hard to sustain as carnivores. And diets should spread out herbivores that would be bad with each other. like currently, pachy+teno is very op, so move pachy diets around the northwest of the map and along the coasts, then keep teno down in the southeast and center areas.

[frail bobcat]

A apex should be a kinda rare sight to see

[frail bobcat]

Did you make a suggestion for that yet?

[hasty coyote]

apexes should be like: "man, he actually was able to do that"

[frail bobcat]

It should take actual skill and knowlegde of the game to grow one

[hasty coyote]

yeah its in general feedback up a bit, i can link it in a sec. However, it was also a rough sketch and the exact areas could be changed to better fit the idea

[frail bobcat]

Maybe that the northwest diet of teno get moved to east

[hasty coyote]

This was my general idea for herbie diets:
#general-feedback message

[frail bobcat]

Already upvoted it, lol

[obtuse ocean]

who knows they might kill eachother alot : P

[frail bobcat]

Because the teno/pachy mixherding is really op, that needs to change

They will make it fair by giving them in different niches

I doubt that the rex will hunt sauropods

But I also doubt it that a giga wil go after a trike

[hasty coyote]

main complaints I have heard so far was that stego diet shouldnt be spread out as far, because just walking far distances isnt difficult, its just hard. But that would require new mechanics that make getting a diet difficult, which I can't personally think of lol. Also that pachy's diets should be moved North West to allow more space for teno.

[frail bobcat]

But it cant stay how it is now

[hasty coyote]

yeah, I dont think all of the apexes should be exactly equal, some should run from each other, and some are better at fighting others. However, they should generally be able to put up a good fight against each other.

[obtuse ocean]

Yea they will, deino gonna be running if it sees a spino etc : P

[eager ledge]

If deinos were realistic spino would die very quick do to a ability called death roll I wish deinos had death roll in the isle it make killing things as a deino more fun

[obtuse ocean]

death roll, dont they use that on a dead body ?

[dusky surge]

it wouldnt be very fun or balanced if deino could easily kill spino would it

[obtuse ocean]

I agree , that would sux : P

deino will prob kill tons of spinos while they are trying to grow, but a full grown. You leave : P

[eager ledge]

That is how most aquatic crocodilians take down prey they don’t just grab and pull they twist and turn also

[dusky surge]

okay cool but would that be fun or balanced

[obtuse ocean]

Thats like having legacy rex same speed as giga, noone would be playing giga

[eager ledge]

That would because all spino would have to do is get out of water and it would be fine because deinos are horrible at land travel

[dusky surge]

so... deino kills literally every animal in the game if it comes near the water cool

that sounds REALLY enjoyable for everyone

[eager ledge]

Dude if the spino caches it on land I’m sure it be a story were deino dies easy because they suck on land have you heard of lure tactics I do all the time as a baby Utah and when the deino jumps out of water chasing me my buddy’s pounce them and tail bite them

[dusky surge]

so the deino can ONLY die if it does something dumb and goes up on land, otherwise it can kill anything that dare touches its sacred water

nothing can contest it in water and it never has to go up on land

explain to me how this is at all balanced or fair

you ALWAYS win near water, so the only way to die is literally trying to purposely kill yourself by running as far from water as possible and just letting an apex stomp you, since mid-tiers or lower don't stand a chance and you can just tank large-tiers

[eager ledge]

Explain to why a spino should be a better aquatic Dino than the most aquatic thing on the roster

[dusky surge]

Explain why a deino should be killing a spino consistently in the spino's natural habitat

Just because deino lives in water doesn't mean spino doesn't

If anything, the spino v deino confrontation should have both sides wanting nothing to do with it. Spino has a better chance on land, deino has a better chance in water, so when they confront each other, they just kind of move to their winning environment and enter a stalemate and simply leave, or wait for the other to become overconfident and go for the kill. These animals will be bumping into each other a lot, so giving a tool to deino to ONE-TAP the biggest apex predator in the game might not be the greatest idea

[eager ledge]

Dienos have one the highest biteforces for it being a tiny bit land creature also spino may be able to swim but that doesn’t mean would or should be able to take down a dieno in water since dieno is manly biult to stay in water meaning it would have more maneuverability over spino and would probably do more damage than spino to since it has twice the bite of a rex spino would have the upper hand tho in shallowish water because it feet would touch the ground so it would have the high ground so in that instance it would win

[obtuse ocean]

Spino is not better in water then deino, its just a power house. Deino can choose to leave

[dusky surge]

i feel like you are forgetting the fact spino has massive claws

also i never disagreed that deino should be better in water

[eager ledge]

Yes that is why I said if grounds it’s self would be able to win because the high ground sinario

[slim dragon]

Deino one-shotting everything under 4 tons is already far-fetched... so in what universe should it one shot an apex that will probably weigh over 10 tons ?

Also if we wanted to go the full realistic route deino might not even be able to deathroll

[dusky surge]

8 ton animal baybee

[eager ledge]

It’s anatomy says otherwise

[slim dragon]

It's anatomy ? What do you mean ?

[eager ledge]

You have to have a spiecifice jaw structure to death roll or the head would spap open in the process luckily by design they have a good head shape

[slim dragon]

It's not only a matter of head shape
It's also a matter of weighing 8 tons

[eager ledge]

Nile crocs can get to 1 ton they do it just fine if you legs and tail are also shaped a certain way they would be able to do using momentum of the first twist no matter how much you weigh also you gotta have a thick neck and there anatomy shows they did

[dusky surge]

yea and deinos are 8 times that

[eager ledge]

I know

[slim dragon]

I'm not so sure about that
Also 1 ton is nowhere near 8 tons
It's 1/8 of 8 tons
Imagine a 740 kg human trying to do a roll

[dusky surge]

the biggest issue with deino deathroll is why the hell would it even need such a move?

it already has a great attack that allows it to easily dispatch anything below half its weight

that in itself is already an extremely valid and powerful hunting method

[slim dragon]

Yeah lunge is already as OP as it is
Imagine growing an alberto to adult only to get snatched and instakilled by a deino...

[dusky surge]

that will happen, which I'm personally fine with, but it very much illustrates where the deino's niche should lie

[eager ledge]

There are ways of escaping the jaws I’ve button mashed the keyboard as a full grown teno and broke free some how I don’t no wat button I pushed I was pressing all of them

[dusky surge]

that doesn't change anything

the only thing that matters is the deino's stamina

if the deino runs out of stamina or lets you go, you can go

otherwise, you can't

[eager ledge]

Crap me got to sleep its 1:43am good night guys we shall agree to disagree on the spino dieno thing

[azure crescent]

i sure do love deino players not knowing their place as an animal

elaborate on the X @dusky surge

[dusky surge]

the concept of hypsi wrestling a deino is ridiculous to me

[azure crescent]

itd have like a minimum weight threshold

[dusky surge]

you did say ALL animal sizes

[azure crescent]

like 700 kg or smaller its just the current lunge

[azure crescent]

mb

[tranquil pawn]

my dudes contradicted his own point

[dusky surge]

also, WHY

just seems like a way to add tedium to the system

[azure crescent]

more interactive

[tranquil pawn]

I assume its for the stego X deino interaction in lunges

[azure crescent]

no

[tranquil pawn]

really? ok then

[azure crescent]

its just to make lunging more fun

because the enemy can now actually struggle depending on their size

[tranquil pawn]

but if the deino has full stam it won't matter

[dusky surge]

idk how failing more lunges is fun for the deino

[azure crescent]

failing? deino still wins by default if the victim is 4 tons or lighter

[tranquil pawn]

• deino already has enough trouble with lunges not registering, making the times you do hit a lunge be a 50/50 would kinda suck, I understand deino shouldn't one shot with lunge but like...

if lunge hitboxes worked maybe though

[dusky surge]

mud idea is cool tho

[azure crescent]

i never had issues with lunge haha i didnt know it was bugged like that

[azure crescent]

itd kinda suck for deinos to just die of thirst because the game said “fuck you”

[dusky surge]

i mean

droughts aren't THAT fast

[tranquil pawn]

[dusky surge]

the water levels would likely drop slowly

[azure crescent]

most deinos aren’t that smart either lmao they wouldnt even notice

[tranquil pawn]

what would deinos do in a drought though, stegos gonna kill them like its hunting season lol

[dusky surge]

in which case they should die

[azure crescent]

true

[dusky surge]

its like AFKing in a forest then being surprised when your animal dies to forest fires

[tranquil pawn]

mhm

[azure crescent]

makes sense

[dusky surge]

speaking of I REALLY want cool niches related to forest fires

[tranquil pawn]

but srsly what would deino do in droughts?

[tranquil pawn]

also heck friggin yes but that would rely on a most likely rare rng event and having your niche based on rng is shit

[dusky surge]

move to the remaining water

it'd actually be harder to avoid deinos during drought

since the limited water will likely also contain deinos

[azure crescent]

• with the mud idea you can’t even be that safe when near mud too

[tranquil pawn]

what if there is none?

[dusky surge]

then every single animal will die of thirst

so that doesn't seem very logical

[tranquil pawn]

true

[azure crescent]

laughing in proto

[tranquil pawn]

has proto salt drinking even been confirmed or only from this one pic?

[dusky surge]

i'd love to see a species with little fleshed out niche to have something like a dietary option that only appears in post-fire

[tranquil pawn]

I'm aware that is a beach dw

[azure crescent]

charcoal for anky

[azure crescent]

don’t think so

[tranquil pawn]

but like... forest fires would be rng right? so having diets based on rng would not be fun right? sounds fun to rely on post forest fires ||cough cough prehistoric planet cough cough|| but it would rely on chance

[dusky surge]

i've been advocating for this before I even watched Prehistoric Planet, but I do hope that show gives devs some inspiration

[tranquil pawn]

[azure crescent]

same, i sadly doubt it tho

[tranquil pawn]

trike eating clay

[azure crescent]

i love the idea of biomes n shit but the current map size doesnt allow very much

[tranquil pawn]

if we get a megamap, herbis should have some diets in every biome but each biome should be a massive part of the map so it wouldn't be the same as rn like Dam and NW

[azure crescent]

true

i want biomes like desert to be their own map where stuff like velo would thrive

[tranquil pawn]

[dusky surge]

Well, actually, I had a diet idea for herbis. Herbis get 2 diets per nutrient, one is a general nutrient (common, easy to obtain, no special pre-requisites) and another is a specialist option (harder to attain or rarer, or only appears in certain scenarios). For example, teno can attain a divers perk with perks to reach the waters floor and eat aquatic plants, or wait for drought to utilise the opportunity to reach this rarer food. This would be for all herbivores, so you can build a perk build specifically for reaching a certain nutrient and significantly change your playstyle, or stick with safer, more consistent meals.

Weather, perks and more would all play a part in what you can have in your "specialist" diet, and would mean certain circumstances create certain survival niches for species

[tranquil pawn]

[azure crescent]

unironically amazing idea

also diving teno perk lets go

[tranquil pawn]

actually that's a friggin awesome idea

Post it BOI!

[azure crescent]

do it

[tranquil pawn]

prolly in general feedback though

[calm ibex]

its good idea, if you dont have to sacrifice another perk to get it

[azure crescent]

why would you need that

[calm ibex]

about choices, other wise everyone has all perks eventually

[tranquil pawn]

I mean I would assume there would be a limit to perks so you don't get them all

[azure crescent]

some perks will be more specialized and therefore have higher requirements but in general perks shouldn’t punish you

[tranquil pawn]

[calm ibex]

and that is the issue, if there is a perk that is more beneficial then that sees more use

[azure crescent]

its not about being more beneficial

[tranquil pawn]

specialized or generalized don't mean more or less beneficial

[calm ibex]

survival game, make choices that improve your chances

[azure crescent]

its just if you like the playstyle it offers to you, you might have to give up something else

survivability remains the same

[tranquil pawn]

yeah, depending on how you want to play, you can adjust the perks to your own playstyle

stat changes like bite force, speed or stamina shouldn't be in perks because that's dumb

[calm ibex]

anyway, its a good idea
i'm just being pessimistic about perks in general til we see actual footage of it

[azure crescent]

all perks will benefit your chances of survival, they will just do it in different methods

[tranquil pawn]

[azure crescent]

i want diving perks for teno and megalania

[tranquil pawn]

I now love the pog emoji

[azure crescent]

i can tell

[tranquil pawn]

[azure crescent]

i sure do love when people use 2 kav videos to show something is unbalanced even though they havent experienced it yet

[tranquil pawn]

[inner lynx]

Like?

[dusky surge]

everyone who's been complaining about U5 balance over the past few days

despite not actually being in the stress test

[azure crescent]

@minor condor all your numbers are wrong

it takes 6 alt bites to a stegos head to kill it and 4 headshots from a stego to kill a deino

and 7 bodyshots for you as a deino to die to a stego

you are tanky enough to take a hit or two, face the other direction and swim away from the stego entirely

[inner lynx]

I think it's fair to complain even without playing it.

Like, utah doubling in size and gaining almost half of its current damage in just 10% is a bit extreme.

I'd prefer if growth in size could be a bit more linear, or growth speed would decrease as an animal ages.

Since sub-adult utah is inherently worse than adults excluding stamina and hiding capability (size), it just promotes people to stow away their animal somewhere safe to grow until full adult.

I suppose it's also an issue that a lot of sub-adult and juvenile animals are just inherently worse then their adult variant.

[frail bobcat]

Hypno sees the feedback, he will change it if he has common sense

[inner lynx]

In all honesty I don't think he actually plays the game consistently to see how it performs in the publics hands.

Otherwise we'd have a lot more adjustments to balancing then we do now.

[frail bobcat]

He has discord and he sees the feedback of the stresstesters

[inner lynx]

Then comes the question of "why isn't it fixed sooner?"

[frail bobcat]

Because its only out for like a few days and they want feedback

[inner lynx]

It's been over two weeks but oh well.

[frail bobcat]

The weight and speed changes?

[inner lynx]

No, the stress test has been out for over 2 weeks.

[frail bobcat]

The stresstest has patches too

[somber sphinx]

So pesky wants U2 balance back…great

The only thing i SLIGHTLY agree on is reducing deinos weight but thats it

[jagged mauve]

damn a dryo can clap a hypsi XD

[flint quartz]

I dont know why but u seem like a guy or gal who thinks new anky is semi aquatic

[somber sphinx]

What💀 where did that come from

[flint quartz]

I don’t know just get that aura from u

[somber sphinx]

but i dont, didnt we have a convensation about anky not being a semi-aquatic?

[flint quartz]

Idk

[somber sphinx]

Yep we did so i win😎

[flint quartz]

There isn’t an argument to win

[dusky surge]

he wins

congrats warden

[flint quartz]

Yeah but what you know what nvm

[alpine plover]

What's that supposed to mean, no one else can give their feedback based on tubers?

[dusky surge]

im saying making huge scenes over if something has been nerfed into oblivion or not despite knowing very little of the full picture is ridiculous

[alpine plover]

Well that goes without saying. But people can still give feedback however they like.

I mean look at thr anky concept, I'm sure someone will hate it. But it isn't even in the game at all yet lol

[flint quartz]

Hippo mode

[flint quartz]

@lament cloak may u plz explain ur reaction to my opinion

[lament cloak]

"here is my hot take and if you disagree you're biased"

[flint quartz]

I mean u have to be rlly bias towards rex to think it can survive 3 anky head shot tail swings

Key word head shot

Also its not a hot take a lot of other people think the same

[lament cloak]

counter point: video game

[flint quartz]

https://tenor.com/view/ok-and-dream-fans-markiplier-thumbs-up-ltsazo-markiplier-gif-21712999

Sorry ur right new opinion. Rex should 1 shot anky and anky don’t stand a chance

[lament cloak]

where did i say that?

[flint quartz]

Ur implying it

[lament cloak]

no?

[flint quartz]

Ok what do u think anky should be able to kill if ur right

[flint quartz]

Also I never said u said it

[azure hinge]

i mean im very much a realism type person but also, its a video game

rex should be able to step on anky and break its spine

[flint quartz]

💀

[verbal zenith]

I don't think that'll end well for either party

[flint quartz]

https://tenor.com/view/bullshit-allosaurus-had-never-seen-such-bullshit-before-theallosaurus-annoyed-allosaurus-bullshit-gif-25911312

[azure hinge]

i mean im just messing around, but im very much for balance i dont mind rex being strong but i wouldnt mind it being taken down by other smaller things

but i just something like that isnt balanced

[flint quartz]

Yeah anky aint exactly paper thin

[azure hinge]

its never fun to get hit by something and get 1 shot

[hasty coyote]

@flint quartz Although anky should probably break a rex easily and deal decent damage, you do realize how much rex weighs right? Anky would be doing more damage than stego to 2-3 shot a rex to the head, and stego is supposed to be doing some of the highest damage of the apexes. If anky can deal fracture AND too much damage, its just op.

[azure hinge]

so even if its 50% of its health thats not fun basically a 1 shot

[flint quartz]

Well ik its a game but irl anky had about a 75% chance to win a fight with a rex

[hasty coyote]

Rex should be anky's worst matchup, but neither of them should be damn near 1-shotting each other

[hasty coyote]

A: how do you know that?
B: its a game, and balance beats realism every time

[flint quartz]

A a lot of studyiny B i said its a game im aware

[hasty coyote]

Plus, apexes will not be just 1-shotting each other. Look at deino v stego, they have to hit each other 4+ times in the head and stego has some VERY high damage. Anky should not be dealing much raw damage, but rather break other apexes and force them to run.

[flint quartz]

Bro it should break apexes

https://tenor.com/view/markiplier-rage-markiplier-chair-gif-24522072

[dusky surge]

rex should just end the fight fractured to hell, or continue and die horribly

its a fracture machine

[flint quartz]

Yes

[dusky surge]

it shouldn't be 2-3 shot to the head

that would make anky have literally some of the highest damage in the game

[flint quartz]

How many then?

[hasty coyote]

I'm saying it should break them, did you not read the rest of my message? I'm just saying it shouldn't be doing insane damage AND breaking them.

[lament cloak]

anky doesnt need fractures if its going to be doing that much damage

[flint quartz]

Yeah but u see… its not

[mental roost]

Anky definitely shouldn't be doing low damage.. although I wouldn't mind if it had lower damage than some of the other apexes: on body hits.
-Bring in special damage types, so that blunt weapons have additional damage on the head on top of the headshot multiplier. -Or something like that.

[flint quartz]

https://tenor.com/view/yes-sir-dog-nodding-head-gif-24754457

[hasty coyote]

Well, we don't know the exact stats of either, but I'd probably put it around 10. However, that would also require the fine tuning of the devs.

[dusky surge]

A rex would likely clock in at AROUND 8000-9000 health, with a headshot multiplier of the base 1.5x. This will mean the anky would have to be doing AT LEAST around 2000 damage per swing in order to be 3 tapping a rex, and MUCH MORE to 2-tap.

[flint quartz]

10 headshots

[lament cloak]

2000 damage. thats how much damage anky needs to be doing to 3 shot rex to the head. that is way too much damage, why even have fractures if you are just going to kill your target instantly

[dusky surge]

Anky, imho, should be doing at most 1000 damage per tailswing, with the blunt modifier which allows it to fracture

[lament cloak]

3000 damage if you are going to two shot it. thats way more than double what stego does

[flint quartz]

Bro calm down it was just a guess

[hasty coyote]

If you break a rex, its likely going to take much more to actually be able to kill you. However, as I said, that would require me knowing how much hp both of them have and the damage of rex, as well as the balance testing.

[mental roost]

2000 damage is insane...the only thing I can imagine doing that much is Shant, and the large sauropods.
-Nightmare fuel

[flint quartz]

No body knows anything about there stats

[lament cloak]

that is an extraordinarily unnecessary amount of damage

[dusky surge]

Honestly, I'd feel comfortable with 750 damage anky, provided it comes with HEFTY fracture damage

[hasty coyote]

Anky def won't be doing "low damage" to like 70% of the roster, but it will be dealing low damage compared to other apexes, since it also has fractures and INSANE tankyness.

[flint quartz]

Well i mean the heaviest ankys were like actual tanks

[lament cloak]

depending on how armour works anky might be the most tanky animal on the roster excluding sauropods, combined with the most devastating fracture tool in the game, it definitly should be on the lower side when it comes to dmg out put compared to the other apexes

[hasty coyote]

exactly, anky is tanky af and has fractures to make sure it takes even less damage, so it doesnt need to deal high damage like a stego.

[mental roost]

I don't really want or enjoy the idea of a situation where a T. Rex can keep on an Anky and keep eating hits due to its high health and anky's "low" damage, even with fractures, because unlike Pachy who can run fast(slow for its size though); anky is a tub of lard. That's my primary concern that could come about, if the fractures don't prove severe enough to deter such an instance.

Not saying it'll happen but it is a concern; but also depends on what's done with both Rex, and Anky so.....we got 20 years to wait and found out.

[flint quartz]

Probably the tankiest

At least size to weight ratio

[woeful star]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WORzahzw4E might be away to save Evrima from being super unbalanced all made pesky