balance-feedback-discussion

[azure crescent]

yes

[hasty coyote]

Shant is scary tbh

[azure crescent]

speaking of which do you think that tap is working on its art

[hasty coyote]

It’s like an elephant, too big for basically anything to hunt

[azure crescent]

^ but one that can actively run after you

since shant can chase things unlike sauropods

[hollow canyon]

Shant's main worry should be Giga

It's like a Sauropod cosplaying as a hadrosaur so

[azure crescent]

really any apex pair or like 20 utahs

[fresh laurel]

what

XD

[azure crescent]

its true lol

[fresh laurel]

but how

[azure crescent]

its like 14 tons

[fresh laurel]

ayo?

seesh

[slim dragon]

Utah could be a base unit for creature strength in The Isle
Utah is 1 utah strong
Teno is 3 utahs strong
Rex is 16 utahs strong
Shant is 20 utahs strong
Brachi is 80 utahs strong

[azure crescent]

or 12 cant remember

[fresh laurel]

anyways so you guys expect giga to abuse bleed on shant?...

[azure crescent]

or flesh grazing

[fresh laurel]

I mean would shant have an easier time defending itself with evrima turning

wait is flesh grazing giga really confirmed?

[slim dragon]

no

[azure crescent]

i mean herrera will do it

[fresh laurel]

thats what I thought...

wait will rex be heavier now than giga in evrima?

[slim dragon]

Devs mentioned it, but mechanic work hasn't begun on herrera yet afaik, so I wouldn't consider it confirmed

[slim dragon]

We don't know

[azure crescent]

its in the concept

[fresh laurel]

Wonder how utah pack vs shant would go

[slim dragon]

And utah climbs in its concept
Pteras fight in the air and one forces the other to drop a fish
Spino flips an anky
Magy wins
It's concept art, not confirmed mechanics

[fresh laurel]

MAGY WINS LMAO

auto correct moment

[azure crescent]

utah is confirmed to somewhat climb, pteras can fight in the air and you can force someone to drop s fish by attacking

[slim dragon]

Does attacking really makes you drop things ?

[hollow canyon]

depends on who you ask, the lowest estimate for it that I've seen was 12t, the GDI gave it a weight of 16t and I believe there's some speculationg about it being 18t based on some femur or something.

[azure crescent]

by attacking them you either kill them or they drop their fish to fight back

[fresh laurel]

ptera killing itself in this many hits rn is kinda funny to me ngl

[azure crescent]

pteras can kill eachother in 3 hits on body

[hasty coyote]

I think there needs to be canni fight mechanics for certain Dinos, like how pachies can clunk heads together and cancel the damage. Otherwise it’s whoever bites first wins.

[azure crescent]

make stegos be able to lock their tails together and it becomes a death sentence until something bites their union point to seperate them

carno too but not locked together

[thin mantle]

@twin oar all of this could be fixed by simply making kick and slam take prio over ram, as it should both logistically and for balance….

[twin oar]

Hope that change atleast is made then

[thin mantle]

It absolutely should be

[tall bronze]

Severities will also help with fractures a lot

[golden coral]

@mint rain More accurately, roster sucks for utah. As you said, most of the things in the roster are things utahs should approach with caution or don't approach at all, prett much all "anti utah" in design. We need more of the kind that isn't as capable of handling a utah to see how it works out.

[quick latch]

it could just be me or should adult utah have a slight stam boost?

I had full stam ran through a jungle for a bit and ran out of stam got killed by carno i mean it was a full grown carno vs 1 kinda stupid utah player but i mean i jumped maybe 1/2 times but compared to juvie utahs stam it just doesnt seem too good

[thin mantle]

Well that's because literally all juvis have 10x the stam of their adults, it getting worse over time is intended

A juvi carno can deadass CHARGE across the entire map if set in a straight line

[quick latch]

makes sense but it seems to me a full grown utah should have more stam then a little run before resting either buffing stam very slightly or reducing how much stam it takes to jump would help with this

even though i do think jumping especially full growth should take a good chunk of stam

[hollow canyon]

Stamina pools of animals according to my tests:

Utah - 105 seconds
Pachy - 105 seconds
Dryo - 120 seconds
Carno - 60 seconds
Tenonto - 90 seconds(iirc)

[thin mantle]

Giving utah stam buffs like this would DRAMATICALLY shift the balance of their fights... dryo would then need it's stam nearly doubled, teno would need stam buffs to deal with how long utahs are able to bait for, pachy would need stam buffs as well, since a utah at that point can easily outstam most if not all pachy players using baits, and the utility of investing stam into other abilities becomes negligible since you need so little stam to continue fighting or running.
Rn utah only consumes around 5-7% stam when jumping, 10% for a pounce, and can be bucked off in roughly 4 seconds, utah can also run for over a minute without stopping, I don't think it's really that needed, especially when utah can jump to higher locations

[hollow canyon]

well technically those are the runtimes

I honestly wouldn't be opposed to buffing the stam pool of Pachy, Utah and Dryo

it really wouldn't hurt imo

[thin mantle]

if that were the case and slam was brought down to 5% stam I'd be cool with it

[hollow canyon]

I'd probably buff Tenonto a bit too

Nah, slam should go down to like 7-8% imo, kick should be brought down to 5%

[thin mantle]

Oh really? Kick costing less than slam? That's new

[hollow canyon]

I don't think tailslam should have a lower stamina cost than kick

[thin mantle]

makes logistical sense

[hollow canyon]

I mean... kick costs less stamina even now

but if you were to decrease slam's stamina cost to 5% then it would cost less than the kick

[thin mantle]

It's currently 10 right?

[hollow canyon]

For slam? Yea

[thin mantle]

so reducing it to 7-8 gives you....uggh I suck at math xD

about 12 slams

[hollow canyon]

I mean that would give you the same number as the kick atm

depends on whether you go with 7 or 8%

[thin mantle]

yeah with 7 it's around 13

[hollow canyon]

current cost of the kick is 7%

[thin mantle]

14 nvm

[hollow canyon]

nah, you can use it 14 times assuming you don't run around

yea

[thin mantle]

Sounds better than 10 :D

which is realistically 9-8

[hollow canyon]

Yea that's sensible for the tailslam, kick should go down to 5% too imo

[thin mantle]

Yeah

[hollow canyon]

and buff up the runtime by some 10 seconds if you ask me

[thin mantle]

The cost of kick in tandem with slam really offsets my perception of slams cost I think

[quick latch]

uhm idk but i think i said "slight"

[thin mantle]

Reduce swimming stam cost perhaps?

[hollow canyon]

it's already borderline non-existent

reducing that does nothing

[thin mantle]

Remove it entirely

[quick latch]

lol

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto has the highest swimtime in the game

[quick latch]

deino

[thin mantle]

Make it HIGHER

[hollow canyon]

doesn't come even close

[quick latch]

just like am i a joke to you

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto outendures Deino many times over in the water

yea Deino's swimming time is a joke compared to Tenontos

[quick latch]

fish ai 👀

[umbral wasp]

I'm sorry to bother but does anyone know which channel to go to to ask for help for servers not showing up (evermina). I know I have to talk to the admin

[hollow canyon]

Idk if an admin can help you with this try isle discussion or evrima troubleshooting

those are your best bets just describe your problems there and people might be able to help you

[umbral wasp]

sure thanks 🙂

[hollow canyon]

Evrima troubleshooting might be better out of the two

GL

[thin mantle]

Make teno gain stam in water when sprinting

[alpine plover]

Not bad actually

@mint rain True, Utah is just shafted by it's own ability and miniscule margins of errors.

Utah is only moderately competent among higher skilled players. When as a baseline for average players it should already be moderately competent.

[native berry]

@pallid igloo context?

[hollow canyon]

whoever deleted that - you were too slow, I've already managed to lose some iq points reading that essay

[alpine plover]

What they say

[hollow canyon]

You don't even want to know, I'm not getting back my brain cells after reading that, there's no reason others should suffer as I have

[half girder]

all pachy needs is less stam drain whilst running that’s really it with stam.

[alpine plover]

Ehhh

I think Pachy should get nerfed offensive behaviors
With defensive behaviors buffed to compensate.

[fresh laurel]

Wonder what yall think of Pesky balance idea

[golden coral]

Are those supposed to be temporary stats?

[fresh laurel]

Not sure

[golden coral]

Because if temporary, then maybe. If permanent, absolutely not.

[fresh laurel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WORzahzw4E

here is his reasoning

though video is a bit long

[golden coral]

I'm watching, so far I'm not impressed at all

[fresh rover]

I agree with all of them

[golden coral]

I think he's missing the point of an ecosystem, and trying to turn this into a deathmatch, which is not at all what I want from the game so

[fresh rover]

they just seem to make sense

[fresh laurel]

Think he is trying to show each playable pros a bit more?

[golden coral]

I'll see. But the sheer fact that he wants carno to hunt bigger stuff, well no. I don't think carno should hunt things over it's own size, or maybe an additional T or so. And I don't know about carno packs for that matter. I'll keep listening and we'll see.

Oh, nvm. He wants carno to hunt stego, that's immediately a no go. By no means should carno hunt an apex.

[fresh laurel]

he said carno pack

[fresh rover]

i mean he did say in groups as stego is a hard hunt

[fresh laurel]

as you know currently is possible anyways lol

Just really hard

[golden coral]

That's still a no

[fresh laurel]

its a no but thanks to skill its going to happen

[golden coral]

Unless you want 5+ carno packs

[fresh rover]

well yeah I dont think it should be too plausible I do think that it should happen every once and a while

[golden coral]

And I don't think carnos should come in more than trios at most

[fresh laurel]

He didnt specify how big of carno packs but I assume the limit?

Really depends Ig? he said Carno should have reduced running turn radius and less bleed so it would be tougher to fight stego

[golden coral]

Doesn't matter

[fresh rover]

@raw wind lol we both had the same idea

[bronze wasp]

He specifical said he is not advocating for them to attack them, he just wants it to be possible which i think is reasonable

[golden coral]

Carno is the smallest/most fragile and fastest of the "mids", it does not hunt apexes, none of them. Not even acro or parasaur really.

[fresh laurel]

thats solo carno

[fresh rover]

what makes it the most fragile?

[fresh laurel]

A carno pack depending on skill can take on more things

also isnt carno pretty heavy compared to the mid tiers too?

[golden coral]

Not from what I know, though I guess that depends on what we count as mid tier?

[fresh laurel]

I think the limit is alberto?

as in alberto is the biggest mid tier

[bronze wasp]

stego is also not truly a apex. if it where a trike, yes theres no chance for a carno

[fresh laurel]

^ that too

[golden coral]

Ironically, trike would be easier than a stego

[fresh laurel]

actually I would disagree there?

[golden coral]

How come?

[fresh laurel]

Trike would have an easier time protecting its body by turning

[golden coral]

When it comes to smaller/faster pack hunters, trike will always be weaker than stego

[fresh laurel]

And carno turns kinda dog water

[golden coral]

Meanwhile stego does not need to turn at all

[bronze wasp]

if a trike is given a reasonable turn in place it should be able to keep facing the carno

[golden coral]

Well if a trike can, then a stego would be even worse

[fresh laurel]

trike can also put its butt in a wall ggez

[golden coral]

Which was my point

[fresh laurel]

Trike and Stego have their own pros and cons with their good or bad matchups

[golden coral]

Stego is designed to deal with pack hunters, trike is designed to deal with solo targets

[fresh laurel]

But then you gotta remember the other herbivores

Some will give both things a run for their money I assume

Like Anky (hopefully)

[golden coral]

Possibly, but both stego and anky has the "area" defense, and anky has armor on top of that. Making them both good vs smaller/weaker animals relying on speed and agility and all. Meanwhile, trike/shant would be better off vs solo big targets, but struggle immensely vs utah packs and other hunters like that.

[bronze wasp]

you also have to take into account the sheer health of trike will give it alot more leniance to defend from groups

[golden coral]

And if Pesky argues otherwise, then he just.. doesn't understand how the animals are designed

Yes but health doesn't matter if you can not prevent the attackers from getting you very well

[bronze wasp]

yeah that is true

[golden coral]

Stego should be "untouchable" vs utahs, due to their flanking pounce and stego negating that due to tail reach

Meanwhile, trike can not defend flanks/rear at all almost vs something smaller

Thus making utah packs a massive threat due to not having the ability to counter their pounces

[versed rune]

i mean how is a carno gonna close its jaws on a trike effectively tho, even if it nips his butt

[golden coral]

Will it take a bit longer to take the trike out due to more health/blood, yes. Is it many times safer vs a trike, yes.

[bronze wasp]

i think that thats okay to have howerver. trikes should defenitly have weakness. have a group will also help defend your flank

if utah becomes to easy to kill trike, then it would be a problem

[golden coral]

You just keep biting it's rear, it'll struggle to catch you. In general, if you rely on speed and agility, then hadrosaurs and ceratopsids are the main target. If you rely on power, then stegosaurids and ankylosaurids work better.

[fresh laurel]

what if trike ends up with an alt attack-

[golden coral]

Such as?

[fresh laurel]

like how deino bite or utah?

wouldnt make sense tho

just putting it out there as its possible

[bronze wasp]

Bottom line, Trike will do much better against say a giga, while stego would have a harder time. Stego can deal with groups much better. but would have a harder time against apexs

[golden coral]

And mind you, I'm not saying trike should just die to carnos or utahs. I'm saying that compared, stego and anky are "anti small/pack" and trike and shant are more "anti one large target"

[golden coral]

Exactly so.

[fresh laurel]

Im just saying EACH HERBIVORE HAS THEIR OWN GOOD AND BAD MATCHUPS

wait as we get more playables to see ig

[golden coral]

Stego sees acro + and wants to walk away. Stego sees allo-, and just takes them on. Trike does the opposite, it sees a rex and goes "finally, a worthy opponent", while when it sees a utah pack, gets worried.

[bronze wasp]

even if trike gets a alt turn its not gonna be an instant turn so it will not be op

[bronze wasp]

which would be perfectly balanced in my opinon

[fresh laurel]

"Finally, a worthy oppenent" That got me LMAO

[bronze wasp]

so long as it dosnt tip to the point where you auto die if met with your oppisite

[versed rune]

we dont know what trikes attacks will be. i assume it will have an alt attack. plus talk about damage dealing, stego's head is the perfect size for abelisaurids and other mid size carnivores to bite. high risk high reward matchup. allo will probably fight stego the same way carno does rn, except maybe also have a grapple + more damage, but allo would be easier to react to since hes slower

[golden coral]

But this is why I do not agree that carno should hunt stego. Yes, it can bite the head, which should have armor for that matter, gular armor was a thing. But also due to stego having flexibility and reach, having an easier time to hit the carno. Meanwhile trike would struggle, and while hitting it's rear might take some time to take it out, it'd be safer and far more doable.

[fresh laurel]

Though you gotta remember that if trike somehow ends up hitting anything thats not a aex then that victim should be out of commission for a while

[golden coral]

I mean, you can't tell me a trike player won't see a rex and go "yes, I will charge this thing!" :p

[fresh rover]

gular armor would be on its neck right? then the tiny head is still weak

[fresh laurel]

Pov. Legacy awful balancing

[bronze wasp]

Which is perfectly fine to say that, i just think that it can be possible. High risk high reward that takes skill and patience

[golden coral]

Neck and throat from pictures I've seen. Point was more so, stego isn't just "weak head". :p

[bronze wasp]

it shouldnt be a regular or easy thing, just possible

[golden coral]

I imagine allos would need 3+ members to take on a stego. And if they need 2-3 members to stand a chance, carnos would not, due to not coming in higher numbers, and being weaker and far more suspectible to bleed.

[fresh laurel]

I dont think we should speak allo vs stego if we dont even have a hint at what allo ability will be XD

[golden coral]

Yes and no, I think people overestimate the whole "skill", especially since we're aiming for an ecosystem, not a "everything can kill everything". There's limits to what should be achievable.

[versed rune]

oh yea thats another thing, as more carnivores are added, carno population will dip, so carno vs stego will be less relevant in the grand scheme of things

[fresh laurel]

^

[golden coral]

Not to mention that stego will need to be ramped up to match the other apexes in the long run at that. While carno is probably going to be fine doing what it currenly does. Though I do agree it should be a bit more dps and less bleed for the carno.

[fresh laurel]

though hopefully smalls stay relevant

[versed rune]

and i do think carno should have limits. like i said para is his prey size limit, with the exception being stego, since stego itself is already an outliar and functions very differently compared to trike, shant, theri, or even anky

[golden coral]

It really doesn't though, anky and stego does the same thing, or very similar. Except one has better armor :p

[fresh laurel]

So uh can we talk about Pesky idea for the Utahraptor?

80 bite what yall think

[golden coral]

And I think para is too big for carnos as well, keep in mind even maia is big.

[bronze wasp]

The reason i say "skill" is due to carnos optimal playstyle. you should not just walk up to the stego and strat attacking. it needs more stratagy

[versed rune]

i mean yea anky's armor basically means carno cant touch it, and it shouldnt. wouldnt make sense if it could

[fresh laurel]

did you see new para size?? man is like king ghidorah to allo

[golden coral]

I'd say maia or similar size is probably upper limit for carno packs, just like they might be able to harass an allo. But that's about it.

[golden coral]

I know, real life para huge. But I don't think we're getting that since we have shant as well.

[fresh laurel]

I think no matter what you say the limit for something to hunt since as you know players find a way to abuse something or just baiting

[versed rune]

fair argument, but i think for the sake of the game, hadrosaurs should have decent strength, low growth times, and be able to be hunted by most carnivores. quick and easy grow with minimal loss and decent power to encourage more people to play as em. the more hadro players we get and the more we diversify the amount of animals that can hunt them, the more herds we get

[golden coral]

65-70, but honestly, I would rework the utah before changing stats. Same goes for stego really. Their issue isn't so much stats as it's.. a strange design at times. I do agree with Pesky that it would be nice if they had to use more than one ability in combat. And I also want more "abilities" in general for larger dinos too. Stego is just.. meh :p

[fresh laurel]

I think a bigger Para can exist with Shant just depends on how they go about it

[versed rune]

when i saw low hadro growth times i mean 1 hour for maia and maybe the same time as teno for para

maybe 30 minutes longer for para

shant ofc is an exception cuz.... yk. kaiju

[fresh laurel]

I thought Stego was meant to be ai so it had the moveset of a ai which is why its so bland

Also how would you rework Utah?

I mean I want it to not be a one trick pony thats for sure

[golden coral]

Yeah, I think I agreed with you on that one. Pretty sure we agree on the whole growth being determined by more than just size. I still think para would simply be too big, if it can somewhat handle allo, then yeah, I'm not sure carnos should go near honestly. And I don't see carnos coming in bigger numbers than allos, sorry. But that could be personal preference from legacy where I used to run in carno trios and it always felt just perfect :p

[fresh rover]

damn eveyone's putting pesky's video in balance feedback

[golden coral]

I would make the "alt bite" the main attack, make it primarily bleed. Turn pounce into a exponentially increasing raw damage attack, to where you need to bleed the prey so it can not buck before you can finish it off with the pouncing.

[fresh rover]

im starting to feel bad like im spamming lol

[fresh laurel]

Pesky says Carno should 11 shot Stego based on pure head shots but also mentions how Stego would still one shot Carno to the head and has the ability to dodge said bites a bit

(Im still watching the video XD)

[golden coral]

I'm trying to watch it to the end too xD

[fresh laurel]

Bucking takes such a low amount of stamina that you would like death amounts of bleed to make a victim not use it

[versed rune]

hmm yes give me watch time

[fresh laurel]

huh?

[fresh rover]

lol

[versed rune]

watch time = the funny thing that gives youtubers ad rev

[fresh laurel]

imo its good

[golden coral]

This could be fixed by making both attacks and buck take more the less blood you have, or something. I did say rework, and I have more plans for it. But the general idea is to bleed prey by harassing with bites/slashes, then when it is exhausted, you finish it off with a full pounce.

[fresh laurel]

I know

[golden coral]

@versed runeFor the video, I'll just say, slow down a little. And give a bit more explanation perhaps. Though I'm not done so maybe you explain it a bit more in the end.

[fresh rover]

yeah i do think that its important to spread the message but I don't wanna just spam the channel y'know

[fresh laurel]

My idea for utah was
Bite is the damage dealing move
Alt attack would be a claw swipe that focuses on bleed than damage
Pounce would be the mix of the two

[golden coral]

Hm.. I don't know, I like the idea of combining the moves, rather than just mixing it. But that's just personal preference I think.

[fresh laurel]

True

[fresh laurel]

I mean combining would be it does decent damage and decent bleed

Though I think it would still allow Utah to be helpful in a fight even with somewhat lower stam

As in you have enough stam to do things but not do anything meaningful with pounce

[golden coral]

You'd have that in my version too so that sounds okay.

[fresh laurel]

Or make pounce have a damage ramp up

[golden coral]

That's what I meant, I think.

[fresh laurel]

Starts small damage... then over time starts doing noticeable damage?

[golden coral]

Yes. Exponentially more for every "cycle" you're on the target.

This would also allow you to save a pinned friend if you react quick enough perhaps. But yes, that's why you need to weaken the target so it can't buck, because as long as it can, you're never gonna get any actual damage done. Hence the bleed bite harassment during most of the fight, then when the target is weak, you can shred it.

[fresh laurel]

What if bucking took more than with more raptors

like one raptors doesnt require much stam to buck but 4....

[golden coral]

It does already

[fresh laurel]

i mean make it a bit more impactful

[golden coral]

It could be yes, but that's assuming any reworks. As it stands right now, if utah works, it's lethal so :p

[fresh laurel]

just sucks being a predictable one trick pony

doesnt help that with timing you can hit utah mid dismount

[golden coral]

That's fine, more or less, that's just a matter of bad roster and thus bad targets :p See earlier trike vs stego example and so on.

[twin badge]

https://youtu.be/5WORzahzw4E to help out a little bit

[golden coral]

Why Pesky thinks acros would struggle vs stego.. acro would be one of those a stego would be concerned about due to size and power.

But then, if stego got a proper rework, that might help solve that

[fresh laurel]

acro has yet to be shown as its own animal instead of nerfed giga but fast

[golden coral]

Yes but it's still a big and powerful critter far as we know I think. Albertos hunting stegos, not sure, allos, same. They're like the.. lower end of what should comfortably go up against a stego. Stego is the "glass cannon", yes. But it's still a large apex. I think Pesky is kind of missing the point that the others all start at 8T and get larger, while stego is at best 7T, possibly a touch more.

So no matter how you look at it, every other apex is much tankier, that doesn't make stego "non tanky".

So unless you want to lower the "size" of rex, giga, shant, trike and others to about 5-6T health/bloodwise, then I'm not sure how that reasoning goes

[dapper sedge]

In fairness stats tend to be changed on balance, and less on what they would actually be, like deinos bite force not actually being it's bite force, and just the damage it deals

[golden coral]

Yes but they've stated that we're getting accurate sizes and all, more or less. But yeah, I guess we can have much "smaller" apexes in general.

Well, halfway through video. I can say I disagree with what carno should be in general, and I disagree with the sentiment of "closing the gap", since we're lacking almost the entire roster. It's fine if there are things you just never mess with, far as I'm concerned. Also making stego/deino matchup closer is a bad idea. Deinos can already take down a solo stego in pairs, and that's fine. Deino has it's design for drowning, not for biting stuff. It should not really be able to hunt stuff it can not grab.

[dapper sedge]

Agreed on deino, the problem with it right now is Stego is just far too powerful and can often times kill 3 or so deinos with little to no risk. And while that's too strong, i think making it an almost near equal 1v1 would be really bad

[golden coral]

It can only do that due to deinos not quite getting how to approach the match, to be fair.

I keep seeing deinos do the whole, bite, retreat, take damage on retreat, and taking turns. That's.. not ideal when you're taking on something like a stego.

[dapper sedge]

I think there's a lot of ways to make Deino vs stego matchup more interesting than just buffing the biteforce and making it a wanna-be rex

[golden coral]

No doubt. Though most of them requires new mechanics or reworks.

@versed rune So, let's make stego vs stego even more trash than it already is. I.. don't know how you're thinking there, but I'd rather we make it more interesting instead.

[fresh laurel]

fracture deino imagine XD

hot take though lunge should do fracture dmg

[dapper sedge]

I meeean, maybe? I'd have to think about it

[fresh laurel]

I think deino should beat stego with a water ambush

thats really it

[dapper sedge]

Yeah idk, fracture wasn't really what i had in mind but

[mighty tree]

Because unless your name is "brick wall" you wont survive 4 spikes if they hit your head

[golden coral]

Carno just about dies to a headshot, you think larger things won't be able to take one? Also said larger things have the power, most likely, to use that extra weak stego head properly, unlike the smaller ones. We're not doing perfect realism balance after all, or most things would just die when a rex sees them :p

[mental roost]

A adult tyrannosaurus has spotted you: begin Mozart’s lacrimosa

[golden coral]

If you're a stego and a rex is approaching, you should consider how to get out of there alive yes :p At least game wise balance. If we did realism, that'd go for pretty much everyone, so that wouldn't be much fun I don't think xD

[mental roost]

Realism balance hurts some dinosaurs more than others for sure….That and losing say 3-4 hours to one stego swing sounds like hell: surviving the initial hit but dying to blood loss, internal bleeding and infection doesn’t help either. So , kinda glad those aren’t things in a way

[fresh laurel]

hot take reduce utah growth time

[mighty tree]

they definitely will but stego still shouldnt be seen as a punching bag even after all the sins the players have made with them

how would stego survive if a "stronger" than it acro comes? Well it definitely wouldnt outrun it and "wouldnt kill it" so i dont see a point in stego being weaker than acro

[golden coral]

That's why stego might need a bit of a rework. But how I would have it go down? You survive by walking away, keeping the predator at bay by mobile swings, and turning enough to keep it from getting to your head. The idea would be to prevent it from getting to your head long enough to stack up enough damage or bleed that the predator have to back down or risk it's life if it keeps going for it. It's not so much that you can't kill it, more that if you stand and fight, you'll die, but if you can get out of there while keeping yourself safe and potentially stacking up damage, you'll probably survive.

But a stego should by no means want to stand and fight vs something it's own size or bigger, it wants to go away and preferably make the thing after it go the other direction. Unlike trike who will probably go right at the predator more often than not. :p

[alpine plover]

Tbh, I do agree that Stego should have less hp overall

Adding non collision hitboxes to Stego's backplates would make Carni Apex matchups more favourable for Stego

The statistical gap between Apexes and the rest of the roster was always a fundamental issue. Even if Stego is the only terrestial "Apex" it should not be congregating mass herds at this current rate. While at the same time being mostly uncontested.

The diet system has failed in this regard

[golden coral]

Why should stego have less hp, it's already the "smallest" of the apexes? Don't plates already not take damage, that won't really save it, there are other issues, and other solutions to that. Not that the matchup should be all that favourable, apexes should be the threat to stego, unlike smaller stuff. And sure, stegos should not come in herds, no apex should, pairs at most, but that's a different issue. I would agree that the diet system seems to be doing all the things it shouldn't and none of what it really should. And honestly, there were far greater issue than any statistical gap, that if anything was okay, apexes are supposed to be well, apexes after all.

[sonic flame]

What are yall talking about atm?

[hollow canyon]

Stego already has less hp

Stego has very little hp for what it could have and what the apexes in general are supposed to have

[alpine plover]

I mean that you could add the backplates as collision hitboxes(Stops bodyshots if the plates are first hit) to reduce damage.
Essentially if a Rex bites down the base of a Stego. The damage could be significantly reduced. Allowing for fair trades.
While the general lower hp makes the matchup more palpable for Allos/Acros at the same time

[golden coral]

Ah okay. I guess.. but I would imagine they'd all go for the head as it were. So I'm not sure that'd fix most of the issues really. Also seems a bit strange, since you'd hit the plates on the neck if you bite down there. And well, neck is a good target too for a rex or acro. I think acros would be fine honestly, especially our.. well padded acro. :p

[alpine plover]

Mainly the backplates, kind of hard to count the neck ones considering headshots against Stego are pretty much vital.

[golden coral]

Besides, I do want stego to be vunerable to the big things, and less vunerable to the small ones so while I acknowledge there are issues, I much prefer if stegos approach is "I will walk the other way, and stack damage/bleed (preferably) on you if you insist on following"

[alpine plover]

I don't believe that Apexes's hp in general should be too crazy high either.

[golden coral]

It's not a terrible idea to be fair, I think I just would look at attack reworks and stuff first, and I do think that might solve the issue honestly.

A stego should not want to "stand and fight" vs something that can actually fight back after all, it's not a trike.

[alpine plover]

Of course, with the backplates reducing the damage in trades, stacking damage bleed, while keep away with your head will generally be an appropriate tactic.

[hollow canyon]

I don't think those values are crazy high at all

6k seems low for an apex imo

I think apex hps will likely be lower than where they could be

if the devs went full on irl stats 11k hp rex

[golden coral]

I suppose. I'm not against the idea, I'm just not sure on it I guess. But you could make it so plates do negate a bit of the damage perhaps, and even if it does over the neck, I would imagine neck is still vunerable due to being well, the neck. (and that's still counting potential gular armor since I do not doubt that the big guys will have plenty of power (or I'm down for nerfing stegos damage a bit, I'm not the biggest fan of the "extreme weak/extreme damage", but that might just be me)

[alpine plover]

It can definitely work, you can have a 4k hp or less Stego if the backplates reduced damage to an extent where even a Rex's bite is nulled and loses the trade with the thagomizer. Stego's turnrate is pretty good for it's size to add on to that.

[golden coral]

Would depend on how big the rex is as well I think? Though I doubt those plates would do that, keep in mind we have anky, who has actual armor.

So I'd say let anky be the "nullifier" and stego be more of the "I can hit you while I go away, so don't try to get past me"

It'd be very strange if stego somehow had better armor than an anky after all :p

[alpine plover]

I think the weight=hp rule should be a general rule. Though with "armour" or just crazy exorbitant stats. There should be exceptions, like Stego's head multiplier. Or Apexes in general having it's own rules to limit the "11 ton Rex" from having 11k hp

[hollow canyon]

wdym with armour?

[alpine plover]

The inclusion of Anky implies the existence of armor mechanics or hard/soft sides with hitboxes.

[hollow canyon]

idk about that but I am definitely hoping we get a dedicated armour mechanics

[golden coral]

It's an idea to keep in mind, I'm just not entirely sure on how effective or suitable it would be. But making both the gular armor and plates be some sort of armor is doable, no doubt about that. I'm not sure what'd be more armor like, the plates or whatever it had on the neck/throat. I guess it'd keep the neck safe both on top and bottom, making headshots all the more vital I suppose.

[alpine plover]

I am too

[hollow canyon]

I'm afraid anky and what not will just be just more locational snoozefest

while a potential armour mechanics has so much to offer

[alpine plover]

That would just suck if it was only locational
Basically a Stego v2

[sonic flame]

Armor is neat to think about, but potentially unneeded

[alpine plover]

Fracture edition

[sonic flame]

Cause like, you really can just do the exact same thing with locational damage stuff

[hollow canyon]

I think armour offers so much potential and could introduce a tonne of nuance to the game

[alpine plover]

You can compromise, maybe not just "4k hp Stego" but reduce Stego's general hp, while having backplates to compensate for the larger predators.

[hollow canyon]

nah, not at all

[alpine plover]

Not really yeah

[hollow canyon]

with armour I believe that certain animals should just handle it better or worse

[sonic flame]

Okay so what could an armor mechanic exactly do, outside of just damage resistence

[alpine plover]

Armour you can add lots of potential mechanics, and it can come in different forms
Example, spike damage for Kentro

[hollow canyon]

so what I have in mind is that

[sonic flame]

because damage lowering can already be done by 2 existing mechanics

[sonic flame]

Spike damage would be a separate thing from armor

[hollow canyon]

we have some animals that are better at dishing out dps and some animals that are better at getting through armoured opponents

[sonic flame]

Like I'd imagine there'd be a shared "armor" mechanic, and then Kentro just has a spike recoil thing slapped on top of that

[alpine plover]

Use similar coding, or a fundamental as a mechanic that could relate to Anky

[hollow canyon]

armour would be what's stopping something like Giga from thinking aobut approaching something like Anky or Trike

or even Rex for that matter

Giga dishes out a lot of damage and bleed and therefore cuts through animals with large hp pools well

but it can't apply that damage to something that is armoured

[sonic flame]

So out of curiosity

what exactly makes your armor prevent giga from dealing that damage to it?

[hollow canyon]

so even if it gets an ambush on something like Trike or Anky it would generally lose the fight in a long run

[alpine plover]

Armour can also have it's own temporary "hp" as well for a mechanic.
Say an Anky shrugs off Rexes bites in an area until at certain period it could "break" leaving a vulnerable zone to exploit to dish out damage to.

[sonic flame]

Cause if I'm understanding it correctly, you are proposing armor has special interactions with a few other mechanics aside from just less raw damage?

[sonic flame]

I think this is a good time to show an old write up I had for armor before I scrapped the idea

[hollow canyon]

basically there'd be different kinds of damage with some of them getting through armour better while others don't

so for example a difference between a Giga and T.rex in a confrontation against Trike is that

[alpine plover]

Ahh, so basically "bleedthrough"

[golden coral]

Possible, but I would still think stego should be in line with the other apexes when it comes to power and health and all that. Should it be "frail" compared to a trike, no doubt. Should it be too big of a difference, no I don't think so. But it's one way of handling hp vs damage. If we get mechanics like it that is.

[sonic flame]

Theoretically, couldn't you include a sort of "armor piercing" mechanic without needing armor first?

[hollow canyon]

I mean... I don't think so?

[sonic flame]

Like "if this strikes an area that otherwise takes reduced damage, it deals normal or increased damage instead"

So then you have something that can counteract the flat damage reduction of locational modifiers, allowing you to punch through a target that is armored that way

[hollow canyon]

You could maybe do that although I think that there's potential to introduce more stuff to that armour breaking/penetrating

like for example injuries(well really fracture or a subtype of fractures I should say)

[sonic flame]

I initially scrapped my own armor proposal because I was thinking "How do you visually communicate to players that armor hp is depleted"

[golden coral]

Anyway, let me read up here and I'll see if I have something to say about armor as well :p

[alpine plover]

armour would open a new can of worms to introduce mechanics
similarly like fractures was

[sonic flame]

like you could do white scarring over the armored body parts or something

[hollow canyon]

where you can disable armour of an animal for a specific time due to the fracture they received

[hollow canyon]

oh no, I'm not thinking about armour working like that

You think of it as a second hp bar, right?

That's not what I have in mind

[sonic flame]

It was more complicated, but to a degree

the second hp bar would deplete based on incoming damage type as well as severity

but you'd still be able to see the armor is clearly on the model, so it wouldn't make much sense

[hollow canyon]

I mean

that could work pretty well tbh

[sonic flame]

I'll shoot my old write up in here

maybe you can glean a few ideas

[hollow canyon]

this would also help with some match ups like Giga vs Rex

[alpine plover]

A visual and audio cue for broken armour could definitely work as a second hp bar

[hollow canyon]

I think both of them should have armour on their faces at least some degree of it

with Rex having a higher armour penetration it would be able to stomp a Giga in a facetank

[sonic flame]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mePSCdEf6cxG_lbeGfqdB3Z9kqZ-DegW5O0BLL4ZHrE/edit?usp=sharing

[hollow canyon]

but the situation would be changing dramatically if Giga was to get a jump on the T.rex

as the back wouldn't be armoured

[alpine plover]

https://youtu.be/5WORzahzw4E

[hollow canyon]

armour would also borderline stop bleeding

pls tell me it's no that video from Pesky again

[alpine plover]

With "soft armour" for Apexes, you could have Apexes generally have less Hp as well.

[sonic flame]

It's the pesky video again lol

[alpine plover]

Itz good a vid for balance changes

[sonic flame]

I actually found it quite interesting, gave me some neat ideas

[alpine plover]

Same

[hollow canyon]

I didn't exactly think of of apexes having armour in general

[sonic flame]

We converged on the same idea there

[hollow canyon]

what I mean is that they should have armour on their faces

so that in an encounter the one with the higher armour penetration would be winning a facetank

[golden coral]

Eh, I disagree with pretty much all of it. To each their own I guess.

[alpine plover]

Bru

[alpine plover]

I did agree that one Teno kick killing a Utah was silly tho

[hollow canyon]

Do we talk about Pesky video now?

[alpine plover]

Just threw in a comment

[hollow canyon]

I can throw in a comment too

[sonic flame]

Carno HP buff may not be needed, see Deino changes. Bite damage fine, Charge does different damage on stagger and knockdown. What about alt bite?

Deino alt bite damage increase to limit land based brawling, base bite remains unchanged, health remains unchanged. Possibly lunge dmg vs stego increased?

Dryo & Hypsi: Damage even needed? TBD based on discussion

Pachy hp remains the same, means Deino base bite dmg doesn't need to change

Ptera HP buff may not be needed, discuss alternatives. Perhaps wings provide a sort of 'armor' with a low damage zone buffer between it and the utah

Stego head and neck multiplier increased further, base hp remains unchanged, aim for front for good damage. Damage increase may not be needed?

Teno why swap kick and slam stuff? Stam look at more

Utah HP buff may not be needed, bite buff TBD, what about alt bite?

[golden coral]

What?

[sonic flame]

my thoughts on it

[hollow canyon]

"Carno and Tenonto become gods, Pachy becomes utter trash, Utah remains trash, Stego goes from godlike to meh if not outright bad, Deino regains its position from u 3.5... is a short rundown of what this would do. Idk and idc for Ptera Dryo and Hypsi since - meme animals and scouts.
"

that's pretty much what those changes would accomplish

I only saw the tl;dr version, I don't feel like watching the video atm

[alpine plover]

I think the issue is that it's based only from a stat point of few
It doesn't take into account for the special abilities

[hollow canyon]

yea

it is, I'm not taking into account all that because can't be bothered with watching 40minute long video atm

[sonic flame]

It provides some interesting discussion imo, I wouldn't go about most of the proposals the same way tho

[alpine plover]

Same tbh

[sonic flame]

like instead of a flat hp decrease to stego, you could do the same by increasing the modifiers on the head and neck

[golden coral]

Since I disagree with his fundamental ideals, I don't think there's much more to say for me

[sonic flame]

still provides more damage vs stego, but you don't get it for free

[dusky surge]

personally, with the pesky video, i was REALLY thrown off by the massive weight nerfs given to stego and deino. Yes, I understand it makes it better for the CURRENT ecosystem, but Pesky repeatedly refers to allos, acros and albertos when discussing stego with no mention of reverting the weight to 6k, which would mean apexes as a WHOLE would have to be significantly lighter across the board to account, and thus, overall weaker

[hollow canyon]

having said that - increasing Deino's biteforce is just baffling to me, Carno doesn't need a biteforce buff either, halving the stamina cost on Tenonto's attacks is just a "wat?" decision

[golden coral]

Such as making stego more vunerable to carno, just no. Carno should not hunt stego, end of story there.

And yes, his ideal of making things more .. closer in capabilities, does not mesh with my idea of how an ecosystem should be done, so..

[dusky surge]

also carno fighting stego was a massive "ehhhh" for me

[sonic flame]

TBF he did make Stego a very specific niche case

So I can see the merit in what he was saying

[golden coral]

I don't think it should be a specific case

[sonic flame]

as opposed to the slew of "just turn it into kentro"

[hollow canyon]

it's already a very specific niche case with its current hp pool

[golden coral]

Ironically, trike would be better suited for a carno than stego anyway

[hollow canyon]

it's low for an apex animal as it is

[sonic flame]

I can def see the value in having Stego's glass cannon aspect pumped up more

[golden coral]

No thank you, it does not make for a fun playable in a game like this.

[sonic flame]

as long as you don't just do it bluntly

[dusky surge]

just seemed more like a way for carnos to "get back" at stegos rather than anything really founded on mechanics, and just kind of seemed like he wanted a ton of carnivore (utah, carno, deino, allo, alberto, acro and probably other apexes) to be great at fighting it

[golden coral]

Not when you have high "return time"

You don't want playables that take a long time to get, to die quickly. That's fine for the things that grow fast perhaps

[alpine plover]

Currently
I'd soft rework current Pachy
Soft remove the missed Pounce
Generally add more utilities for Carni's attacks to be more tool orientated.
Have Apexes or so on a tighter leash.
Rework diets again

[sonic flame]

Reason I think an increased modifier works better is because stego remains just as tanky, as long as it can protect its head

[dusky surge]

stego i think has enough on its plate without worrying about a "carno pack" (which already kinda defeats the point of the 3 carno groupings)

[sonic flame]

so keep butt pointed to them, big damage, and enough hp to sit out a seige

keep face pointed at them, bad time bears

[golden coral]

That'd work better if we had proper stego attacks to be fair, then I would agree to consider it

[sonic flame]

It's not like the jab doesn't work for that imo

[golden coral]

But currently even facing something, aside from deino, should not really be a bad time

[sonic flame]

because it spins you, and attacks at once

[hollow canyon]

you attack slowly if you do that

[alpine plover]

Jab is very stationery though
It may pose an issue unless it deals a stun

[hollow canyon]

if I understand what you're tring to say - that decreases Stego's attack rate down to... a lower value than Deino's base bite iirc

[alpine plover]

Personally the jab shouldn't be it's primary attack either
I was always fond of it being a sniper ability instead
High damage, high stam

[golden coral]

@sonic flameI think the issue here is that even if you made stego "weaker", carno should just not attempt it. There's nothing smaller than an allo (in packs) that should really attempt a stego or anky. Just like it should be "opposite" for the trike and maybe shant. So while an increase in multipliers could be argued, that should be in relation to the apexes and others that can and should make use of the "go for the head" strategy.

Like, the reason Pesky argues for the nerfs is because he wants carno to hunt stego, as he made a case for, and I disagree with that sentiment entirely. Carno should not really hunt anything much bigger than itself, maybe up to twice it's own size if we want to go that far.

[alpine plover]

Well, Utah is kind of an exception. It's probably the exception in nearly all matchups except maybe Anky/Deino/

[golden coral]

Not really. Stego, anky, deino (unless you find it miles inland possibly), spino (similar situation) (aside from sauropods) should never be approached by a utah pack. They're all animals that either due to their own abilities, armor or tail reach, or environment (cant pounce if you're swimming), are not prey for utahs at all. If you want utahs to hunt large animals, shant, trike, rex and giga are there for that. All animals that can not defend flanks and can't just go into deep water and ignore the threat all together.

[alpine plover]

Yeah, aquatics are generally invincible in that regard. But the semi aquatics far enough inland are general fair game

[golden coral]

Yeah, I put bary, sucho, pachy, kentro, teno, and maybe some others as "hard but doable" targets for utahs.

[alpine plover]

Cherry is just a gigantic hitbox to land pounces on imo. Doesn't seem to be too mobile as a Para or Shant would either

[golden coral]

Due to some envrionmental advantages, and otherwise fighting capabilities. Bary/sucho/cherry possibly as semiaquatic, and pachy/teno/kentro due to design otherwise. And then you got the rest being perfectly fine prey, with some exceptions that I'm not remembering right now :p

[alpine plover]

Though take a dip in water, and you have nearly nothing to worry about

[golden coral]

Cherry I don't know, I keep forgetting we have one xD

But since it can go into water, I'd put it with sucho or bary in envrionmental advantage, unless it goes like spino and just.. dips entirely.

[alpine plover]

Cherry, I imagine will probably be one of the most "safe" Herbi Apexes in the game

[golden coral]

But yeah, I class stego/anky and deino/spino for now as the borderline untouchables, and then some others as doable but tricky for utahs, due to their pounce and flanker abilities. That still leaves most of the roster as pretty good matchups I think at least.

And even the worst matchups could change due to circumstances. You find a stego or anky mauled by a rex, or a spino recovering from taking on some deinos, yeah, that'd be perfectly acceptable targets most likely.

[alpine plover]

Circumstantial I suppose

With the diets on the backburner, and Stego/Deino being the showcases for "Apexes"
I'm really not a fan of this being a possible foreshadowing of how Apexes are again, gonna powercreep the balance of the game like legacy

[golden coral]

@alpine ploverI do think utahs should be a bit more limited honestly, and maybe a bit more capable individually and so in smaller packs. Mostly cause if it can take pretty much everything bar a sauropod, it feels a little.. edgy you know? Tryhard? Like this is the one critter that just.. kills everything else sort of xD

I still think this is the perfect time to figure out how to limit apexes due to food scarcity and similar, and encourage the compeition between them.

Also because it might put some light on those terrible mirror matches :p

Still beyond me who thought "Ah yes, stegos should come in herds"

[alpine plover]

I'm not against that status if it takes so little margin of error to accomplish any of those feats. With very limited conditions to do so.
I am in favour of making Utah less punishing currently though. Considering it takes a high skill gap to produce very moderate results.
Further pushing Utah the "tryhard" pick.

[golden coral]

I don't think the "powercreep" is the issue here. In legacy, sure, but not due to that, but rather the lack of everything else you know. Or at least how I see that.

[alpine plover]

Ehhh, if other Apexes grow in a trend like Stego currently does. The ecosystem will surely be powercreeped to hell

Full of Rex trios once again

[golden coral]

Eh.. I think it comes down to the ecosystem balance view for me. I just dislike it because it does sound a bit like "if you want to kill everything, go this critter" and that shouldn't really be a thing in an ecosystem. Even if you make "excuses" for it, I still dislike the basic concept there I think. I'd rather make utah more of a new player friendly animal (it really should be, poster boy for doing things with the pack after all, should be good for new players looking to find others to learn the game with), and limit its punch up potential more.

[golden coral]

Okay, I think I get what you mean. But well, that would be why I said I think this is the time to figure out how to limit an apex on it's own, without requiring something else to "cull" it. Which should be doable I think at least.

Surely there should be a way to limit stegos and deinos without having something else kill them off, envrionmental reasons, food, competition (since they can kill their own, terrible as the matchups are...), and so on.

[alpine plover]

True, even in isolation, Apexes should still be a difficult feat.
Essentially the hard mode for maximum power in the ecosystem.
Having Stego demolish food constantly, or more on a serious prowl should start being experimented with. Cause they can sit on a rock body guarding for 10 mins when they should be optimally maintaining their behemoth status.

[golden coral]

Hard to grow (well, difficult, but fun, growth is an issue all of its own), and hard, or again, better yet, difficult to maintain more importantly.

[alpine plover]

I respectfully disagree, having "conditional" (keyword) interactions within the game keeps it engaging.

[golden coral]

I think I'd rather have them reach adult more often, but also fail to stay alive more often, than the other way around. And honestly that might go for most things.

[alpine plover]

I'm in favour of this as well.
I'm also in favour of sickness mechanics, or poor diets accelerating weaknesses.
Say a poor maintained Stego should be gravely concerned at the sight of just 2 Utahs bleeding it down effectively

Cause a poor diet Stego can still destroy the entire roster no matter the number almost effortlessly

[golden coral]

I don't think I neccesarily disagree with such interactions (or at least I don't think I do), but I still think there should be limits. I did say "kill everything" sort of, you can surely still have conditional matchups and still some limits aside from that? And since I think utah is a key "new player choice", I think that might be an angle to consider, rather than making it "tryhard".

[golden coral]

Possible. Well, not utahs in that case but the sentiment I can agree with aside from choice of predator and prey. Not sure how bad poor should be, but maybe it's because currently diets mostly shit on recovery, rather than capabilties otherwise?

Which is perhaps less relevant, but might be more so in the future if the encounter rate goes up

So being wounded in general is a bad time

[alpine plover]

I think it should be more based on vulnerability, So you're very easy prey as a poorly maintained Apex

I'd be fine with the super stats Apexes have if they're always on the grind for it.

Slip up, and you're chow for the majority of the combat capable roster

It should be identifiable through scent or visuals as well
So predators can selectively target the weak.

[golden coral]

I think I can agree with the basic sentiment, not sure on the exact values, seeing as I still think an apex is and should be an apex, even a weak one. But it could be interesting if you had the choice between a healthy but bad diet rex vs a badly wounded but perfect diet one as a target. And we first need more vunerabiltiies around for more often. And I think we're getting ways to identify stuff better. (also hopefully tracking changes while we're working on our sniffers :p)

Though with current diets.. well, I dislike using diets for movement, but that's down to me preferring to be territorial. I want to just roam center as a stego, but diets says no, run back and forth or else! :p

[alpine plover]

Basically: Lower blood pools, Lower bleed hp, Significant amounts of locked Hp, Drains more Hp on attacks, Lower Stam regen
(Only applicable to Apexes)

[golden coral]

And yes, I know even one diet makes me plenty powerful, but I A, like the recovery boosts since I'm not the best fighter, and B, survival me says to not be stupid and to play to the best so you know, I have to get the diets!

[golden coral]

Sounds like a potential start. Except applicable to everything. Just that most other things, will have to struggle to get that bad, while apexes struggles to not get that bad.

I dislike anything that is for apexes, or anything else, specifically. And I don't see why other things should not also have to struggle with diets, it's just that their struggle is well, not much of one, compared.

[alpine plover]

I think for Apexes you shouldn't really get leeway to play loosely and roam
Maybe temporarily if you've well kept them. But soon enough you'd have to get back into the grind yet again.

[golden coral]

If we had good and bad "territories" I'd say depending on where you chose to settle, and if you can keep that spot. :p

But then we come back to diets and well, not much time to roam right now, unless you count going back and forth from NW to Swamp :p

But I think I agree in general, if not on all your specifics

And I should probably go to bed now, before I actually start ranting about how much I dislike current diets and their purpose.. :p

[alpine plover]

If you claim areas of abundant food for yourself, sure
Though fighting should be encouraged among Herbivores
While for juvie herbivores should have their own separate food sources.
Along with juvie carnivores

[golden coral]

Think I pretty much agree with all of that :p

[sonic flame]

He also pointed out how it wouldn't be a common occurrence, and personally, while I never want to see a healthy stegosaurus falling to carnos, an injured one I could see being taken out. As it stands tho, even being on less than 20% hp isn't a real concern for stego as long as Utah or Deino aren't nearby

We'll disagree there, and I think that's fine, though I would like to see how something like that would fair for a bit

Hopefully the stress test will allow up to try some different things out in terms of balance

[alpine plover]

I hope there's updates on diets, and for the relative apexes as well

[drowsy wasp]

He did say if you were gonna do it you'd need a pack. Plus if the stego lands a headshot, you're donezo. It would be a super rare occurance.

It should still be possible if you have a group of carnos who really know what they're doing, but if there's a single mistake then somebody's getting dropped

[golden coral]

@sonic flameSeeing as a stego at 1200 or less health (20%) is 3 or 4 shot on head by current carno, I'd say that can happen already. So that occurence can already be a thing, without needing any changes at all. And yes, I do sincerely hope the team can test out all kinds of changes, from stats to spawn rates and attacks and all. @drowsy wasp Yes, and given a sufficiently weakened stego, you can take it on in a trio of carnos (and I don't think carnos should come in higher numbers, they're not a pack animal really). See example, carnos can already kill stegos, and I don't see a reason for it being easier or more common if it's supposed to be so rare.

[sonic flame]

You'd think it could happen, but Stego can very much just shrug off packs of carnos with relatively little concern, I don't really see that changing if you turn it more into the sort of glass cannon pesky is advocating for, but again, to each their own lol

[golden coral]

It's simple math there. A stego at 20% is that weak, it will die to four headshots from carnos. If that stego can "shrug off" a carno pack, then that would be on the carnos I'd say.

Since at that point, unless you get headshot, you can more or less trade with the stego and kill it.

[drowsy wasp]

Stegos just shouldn't be able to roll over everything with pretty much zero competition, cause that's what's happening currently, at least from what I've experienced. That might change once other dinos get added, but we're probably gonna be elderly by then so it'd be nice to have some more balance with the current dinos.

[golden coral]

Same as carnos being able to kill a deino on land, it's also doable, if the deino is sufficiently weakened and low on stam.

[golden coral]

Eh, I honestly don't know what's best, balancing for current roster or for what the critter is supposed to be in the end.

@sonic flameI think my issue with most of these takes is that it's opposite of how the animals should function. And since we have nothing else to compare with, we get these sort of balance issues to contend with.

[sonic flame]

I think there's also an isssue with "should function" being different for everyone

[golden coral]

Not really. The critters design and thus capabilties, is pretty objective. Sure, there's some leeway, but not that much compared to stats or similar.

[sonic flame]

You'd think, and yet, we have such radical disagreements on how X animal is meant to function all the time

[golden coral]

Because people.. aren't always thinking things through..

[sonic flame]

if things were truly so clear cut, there wouldn't be nearly as much discourse, and at the end of the day, this is a video game in development, so an animal's role has ample time to change if wanted

[golden coral]

Like, objectively, form follows function and function follow form

[sonic flame]

That's only to a point tho

[golden coral]

And yes, but also no. Again, design says something. See speed for animals. We can only make them move so fast before it just.. doesn't work out very well. Unless we throw looks and realism and everything else to the side I guess.

[sonic flame]

For example, objectively, and from a design point of view, Ptera running take off and skim dumb and bad, and yet

[drowsy wasp]

Just hoping cerato drops soon, that way there's something that can actually pose a threat on land to stegos, which would let carno focus more on what it's supposed to be.

[sonic flame]

Like there are very clear design aspects for both of those features, and Ptera has like, the opposite of both

well developed hind limbs for running take off, and a knife-thin lower beak for skim

compared to Ptera's tiny back legs and a lower jaw the same width as the top

[golden coral]

As I said, people aren't always thinking. I believe this can apply to anyone.

That does not however, change the objective status of the critter and how it should function if done properly.

[sonic flame]

or Hypsi's high jump, when Hypsi doesn't have anything physically to make you think "huh it should jump 12 meters vertically"

doesn't even bend its legs while charging the jump either lol

[golden coral]

Well, I can't explain someones lack of reasoning.. :p

[sonic flame]

or for another example, Carno's charge not breaking its neck when slamming into Stegos and stuff lol

like I don't think "fuck you video game" is really a point that can be safely ignored here

[golden coral]

Yes and carno charge is also dumb :p

[sonic flame]

Sure Stego as a real animal isn't meant to be any more of a glass cannon than other 6-8 ton animals

but it's also not supposed to gallop, or eat grass

or look the way it does, since ours is based on outdated stego lol

[golden coral]

I don't think we're ignoring it? I'm not saying you can't make the critters do this or that, I'm saying it's objectively wrong and thus shouldn't be done, and that you can't argue that "yes this critter functions like this". You can just say "but game says it does", but that still means you're objectively wrong on how the critter actually functions.

[sonic flame]

If the animal functions like X, doesn't that make me right that that's how the animal functions?

[golden coral]

You can make the rex breathe fire in the game. You can't say "this is how a rex functions" because its not, rex didn't breathe fire (that we know of at least).

[sonic flame]

Oh, you're attempting to apply realism

[golden coral]

Not if we're talling about being correct about how something physically works.

[sonic flame]

Fair, to a point, that line was crossed on launch tho

[golden coral]

Not even realism, but model even :p

You can make a model in game do stuff that it .. physically does not support doing :p

[sonic flame]

Physicality doesn't apply to our game, Pounce doesn't make sense for Utah since the claws aren't serrated or razor thin

Teno's breaking its tail with quite a few animations, the tendons would snap from a tail slam, and the real animal was a biped

[golden coral]

Wait, it was bipedal? :p

[sonic flame]

Yeah

[golden coral]

Missed that when I looked it up somehow xD

[sonic flame]

most people restore it quad in media

which isn't supported atm

But yeah, you can't point to a single one of The Isle's animals and say that it obeys the rules you're trying to place on Stego here

[golden coral]

And yes, I know we can make stuff do whatever we want in the game, I just say that it's wrong to say it works like that when it doesn't. :p

[drowsy wasp]

I got the impression that it was mainly a quadruped, but could run on it's hind limbs if it wanted to. Interesting.

[sonic flame]

they all make concessions for video game stuff, and in the case of a hypothetical glass cannon stego, you could even justify it with the model

[golden coral]

So unless you specifically mean in the setting of the game, then I don't think it's a proper way to look at it, nor argue like that.

[sonic flame]

given that you know, head smaller than utah's probably isn't the most resilient to damage

not helped by our stego seeming to lack throat armor

[golden coral]

I'm sure you could and I don't disagree with that sentiment based on reality, I disagree with it based on it being fun in the game. But it's not quite the same as being able to physically do something it shouldn't :p

Though I doubt it was that weak for real or stegos would have just died out :p

[sonic flame]

and likewise, pointing to stego and saying it shouldn't function like X because of the animal being clearly designed for Y kinda falls apart when you look at our carno, a pretty good reconstruction of the animal, being a small game hunter, when irl carno was one of if not the largest carnivores in its formation iirc

I mean if a real Allosaurus grabbed a real stego by teh skull, probably wasn't a great time to be that stego

tho a real stego is way more agile and flexible than in game

and a real allo would probably hesitate to attack an adult anyway, because animals don't deathmatch for fun lol

[golden coral]

And here I thought it was the opposite, and our stego was made more flexible and agile :p

[golden coral]

Now if we can get players to apply this in game.. :p

[sonic flame]

Nah, IRL stego wasn't as chunky, and likely had the sort of fine motor control over its tail we can only hope for

Players won't care if they are set to 1 hp with a 15 hour heal time, they'll jump into a fight anyway for the lolz

[golden coral]

I don't think thats the best example honestly, since carno could run after things in both cases? Aside from charge, it's not doing anything in game it.. couldn't really do for real there?

Except maybe climbing rocks, like everything else.. :p

[sonic flame]

The argument I'm citing is that carno shouldn't be even trying to hunt stego, when in reality an animal the size of carno probably could threaten a stego pretty severely

like, Carno may not have the sheer mass of an Allo, but its got a big enough mouth and strong enough bite, and should the two have crossed paths, a Carno irl likely could've taken Stegosaurus time to time

unlikely as Stego is the larger animal, which has a massive impact in who survives encounters, but it's not unfeasible to think a 2 ton theropod could take a stego

[golden coral]

Ah. Well that's more.. I guess "potential". I was more so arguing the form/function thing. Such as stego being able to defend sides which a trike can not do, unless we make trike hop around very quickly, while stego has inbuilt ability due to tail swing.

[sonic flame]

I mean I'm sure Trike will get an alt attack

and we did see it's turn in place, quite literally hopping

[golden coral]

Which is what I was originally referring to with the whole making critters into opposite of how they should function

Yes and I find it very strange

[sonic flame]

I personally think of stego more like a lancer

[golden coral]

You take an animal that has clear weaknesses, and turn it upside down, in both cases :p

Which was my point on how they function

[sonic flame]

it's got the ability to thrust its tail with pretty good accuracy a huge distance, something trike can't do without moving in that direction

[golden coral]

We're making stego weak vs what it would be good vs, and trike good vs what it'd be weak vs. Or so it seems at times :p

[sonic flame]

Imo that is part and parcel of making animals more interesting

adding or subtracting weaknesses to get the intended effect

[golden coral]

Yeah, so why are we arguing that stego should then be weak to things that would suffer from that kind of reach, and trike be good vs them when it does not have that reach :p

I mean, you're.. kind of adding a step instead of going with the base animal

Why add or subtract when they baseline have that difference

[sonic flame]

The kind of things Stego's jab is great for are incautious smalls and large animals that it can keep at a distance, Trike is better in close quarters

[golden coral]

It makes no sense what so ever to me

[sonic flame]

I think you need to stop thinking of the base animal and start just treating it like some random video game character

a lot of the design choices make more sense when you stop thinking "but IRL X can't do that! And our model doesn't support that either!"

[golden coral]

I guess, but considering the whole ecosystem and niches and you know, all of that, it just seems like a very strange approach to then throw it all out.

[sonic flame]

Building off this, Stego is weak to animals that can dodge and get in to hit it, or power through the attack, while Trike is weak to animals that can poke at it from a distance with quick attacks or long range

[golden coral]

I mean, that kind of sounds like the whole "x but reverse" sort of, if you apply it like that.

[golden coral]

That made them exactly the same?

[sonic flame]

I mean the benefit of making Stego a lancer type fighter is that you can thrust a tail pretty far, comapred to a short neck

[golden coral]

Except I guess.. what long range attacks?

[sonic flame]

Well Trike is built to take the largest of the large carnivores

[golden coral]

See, you're making them both strong and weak to the same things?

[sonic flame]

I'm not, let me finish

[golden coral]

Alright

[sonic flame]

so it doesn't matter if the rex gets into your range as a Trike, you are built to fight it at that range

if a rex gets into Stegos range, rip

Likewise, if something like a spino or a sucho is using their long necks and heads to snap at you from a distance, that works for you, since you can retaliate with your strongest attack at range, something Trike can't do without fully turning around and giving up vital positioning

and against small animals, Trike is dangerous because it can turn rapidly, but only ever has one direction it is dangerous in, Stego is dangerous because it can cover everywhere at once, until it attack, which leaves it vulnerable

so the smallest animals can exploit both in similar, albeit unique ways

however Stego is by far more equipped against mid tiers, and trike against apexes

[golden coral]

Which.. is kind of what I mean when I say you make them the same. Also.. I don't know what kind of reach you're expecting for a sucho or spino.. but .. I don't think they'll be able to stay out of a trike reach while attacking.

Meanwhile I think trike should be good vs everything on the larger side, stego good vs everything on the smaller side. Rather than making them both good and bad, but in slightly different ways.

Because if you make them just the same but "different", then they get hunted by the same things, which I don't think should be the case. I prefer clear cut "prey range" I suppose.

[sonic flame]

I mean logistically speaking, damn near anything could gank either animal

See I'm not a fan of doing things so cut and dry, I think it takes a lot of the player agency away when it doesn't add much to the gameplay

like "Oh man I'm an Allo, so I just... can't deal with stego, but I'll fuck up a trike because they're weak to me!"

instead of each animal have more general good vs bad matchups

[golden coral]

Well yes, that's why we have such a varied roster, the playables being the "class" rather than what you equip. And sure, you can have it a bit more general, but there should be a clear difference at least to me.

[sonic flame]

To each their own there, I'd rather characters be more similar if it makes each one more fun, than introduce differences for the sake of differences

[golden coral]

That's.. kind of the point to me of the whole ecosystem and choosing your playable. It depends on what you want to do, or not have to do.

I'm not sure how it makes it more fun honestly, because it takes away relevance of choice for your playable.

Same with why you'd choose rex or giga, it would depend on what you want to hunt, since they'd be good vs different kinds of targets

See earlier discussion on armour and stuff

[sonic flame]

It makes your animal able to handle a wider range of situations, and reduces the amount of "guess I'll die" interactions

and personally, when I play a character, I just want them fun, I don't need to feel quirky or special compared to other characters

it's like, if you offer me 20 flavors of chocolate ice cream, I won't be mad that they are too similar, they're all chocolate ice cream, what's not to like

I'll still have my favorite of course, and I wouldn't touch the coconut ice cream, but I've got a nice range of "good, but slightly different"

instead of having one flavor I like in an ice cream shop of 60 flavors

[golden coral]

Not that there should be any "guess I'll die" in the first place. But I'm not sure.. that's relevant here. And sure, it should be fun, but well, fun is very subjective. But to me the choice should come down to "what do I want to do in the ecosystem" and that determines, to a large degree, my playable choice. And it's not like I'm opposed to somewhat "general" choices, but your example of trike vs stego just doesn't work for me. If they are both weak and strong vs very similar choices, then one of them might end up being the better, and then why be the other.. (also I don't like ice cream, sensitive teeth says no thank you! so go away with that stuff!) But if I were to use that example, I'd choose base on what I'm looking for, like.. different juice, which depends on what I'm in the mood for rather than there being a favourite and then the rest is just no good like in your example.

Maybe I'm more varied in my taste and thus don't mind more "locked" choices because I'll inevitably try them all (or most at least), while you're more selective and prefer most things be close to said preference? :p

[sonic flame]

I mean for perspective, I like Kirby games

[golden coral]

That tells me absolutely nothing

[sonic flame]

going somewhere

[golden coral]

I.. vaguely know what a Kirby is, I think.. :p

[sonic flame]

every Kirby copy ability is unique in its own way sure, but they share lots of simple features, that make it easy to swap between them, or pick up new ones if you've never touched them before

so while you might have a unique interaction here, or a special attack there, they are largely the same

there are over 60, and I love them all, despite each fundamentally having the same 2-3 thing repeated over and over

the combinations of those things, and the special flavor is what makes each feel special to me

rather than each needing to be wholly distinct

[golden coral]

Okay, I think I get it, and yeah, that.. seems slightly opposite to how I would react yes.

I'd probably go "but I'm doing the same thing just.. x instead of y.. what's the point?"

[sonic flame]

another example would be pokemon lol

the grand majority, when you get into it, are just copy pastes of each other, but have enough small uniqueness's to set them apart

[golden coral]

Considering I tend to favour a set team of the six favourites for any new gen, I think I still apply my own approach there, seeing as they are often varied enough in theory (in the game, sure they're all just slightly different stats and so on, but I'm a roleplayer, I can assure you I have my own take on them in more.. anime/live style I guess).

[fresh laurel]

ngl one thing that bothers me is how close utah and stego bites are in damage to each other

I mean one has the teeth and jaws made for biting and the other eats plants with a tiny head...

[golden coral]

Stego go nom! :p

[fresh laurel]

But

But

Utah made for eat meat

[golden coral]

Well it does do bleed so there is that! Though I think there was a bug that made stego bite do bleed as well..

But yeah, honestly, some of the herbis having bites is a bit odd

[fresh laurel]

even then ONE HAS THE JAWS MADE FOR BITING AND THE OTHER DOES NIPS

[golden coral]

I get the idea for a basic attack but still

[fresh laurel]

how does one end up with such similar damaging bites...

[golden coral]

But I guess that's why, since it's the basic, no stam drain, attack, it has to be useful

Dryo can get away with it, cause well, dryo run! (also dryo can gank juvies as it stands so there is that). Stego, well, if it can't use the bite, then why is it even there I guess.

But that would be the reason, game balance over realism here.

[fresh laurel]

I mean balance wise Stego could probably bite a pachy to death heh

the nips of death

[golden coral]

Possibly, not sure how that works out. But it'd have to somehow catch the pachy first xD

[fresh laurel]

I say stego only has its nip because people would be pretty mad if stego only had one move

[golden coral]

Though with pachys head taking less damage, and stegos taking more, maybe a few pachies could facetank a stego to death in a bite battle xD

[fresh laurel]

if pachy or utah feels risky

I wonder if stego could bite teno to death though....

[golden coral]

What does teno do in bite damage?

[fresh laurel]

Idk tbh

[golden coral]

Same, otherwise we could calculate it

[fresh laurel]

you use taco server?

[golden coral]

Not often, I dislike the whole discord jumping through hoops to play there. I get it but.. :p

But I should have a grown teno somewhere, so I can check, well, after some sleep and all

[fresh laurel]

alr

just saying though... utah and stego shouldnt have such similar bite damage lol

[golden coral]

Eh, realism wise, not at all. Balance wise, maybe they should, I don't really know. :p

[fresh laurel]

In balance Stego shouldnt rely on biting at all imo while Utah (as bad as the bite is rn) has to

[golden coral]

Oh I would agree, but since we have basic bites, we'll have to deal with it for now. Stego has no other basic attack, and heck, even pachy bites, despite having a perfectly good head to use to bonk things. :p

[fresh laurel]

You are forgetting how Pachy bite is even more pathetic and gives more reason to use its rmb or alt while stego can actually use its bite thanks to its hella high hp and lets not forget its swipe does over 1k damage...

[golden coral]

It was more so just me pointing out that it also has a bite, even if it doesn't make that much sense. And well yes, if stego couldn't use it's bite, it'd be no point in having it. And since every other attack takes stam, or is.. well, rather bad for protective purposes, the bite does have a function.

[fresh laurel]

so why does something that doesnt need to use its bite at all (that has lots of hp and a 1k dmg dealing move) compare with a carnivore that actually has to use its bite

[golden coral]

You don't exactly want to swipe at the utah pouncing your baby.. :p

[fresh laurel]

but at the same time bite wouldnt one shot the utah lol

[golden coral]

I think that's another reason for those bites

No, but it might get it off, I guess? I don't really know to be honest, I'm just pointing out reasons I think make some sense

[fresh laurel]

so if a utah pins your baby at that point you should of been more watchful since theres no saving them then

[golden coral]

I guess it's useful vs smaller utahs and stuff

[fresh laurel]

if it gets off you can swipe to have a better chance of killing

[golden coral]

Like troodons perhaps

[fresh laurel]

the problem with that is stego will get trample soon so troodon will be pretty easy unless they get some sort of pounce

I mean how would troodon even land bites without dying to being stepped on...

keep in mind collision will be improved on

[fresh laurel]

also with troodon you dont really need 50n to deal with them

[golden coral]

Maybe not. I honestly don't have a good answer for you, I'm just trying to provide some arguments that I think works and that I think I've heard from others earlier. :p

[golden coral]

I hope it is, but I'm not sure it will be. Unless you got a confirmation you can provide?

[fresh laurel]

Pretty sure it was said somewhere that they want to find a way to improve collision since you can still walk through areas of dinosaurs

[fresh laurel]

I mean Stego bite being for situational things is fine but again... Utah

I would say buff Utah bite but not sure how people feel about that

[golden coral]

A little bit of a buff might work out, but as I said somewhere way earlier, I'd rather rework it.

But I also think we shouldn't care too much about the values but rather how it works out in game and for the purposes it's meant to do

Even if it does at times look a bit weird :p

[fresh laurel]

Devs intend for Utah to rely on pounce but I dont think they had to nerf the bite this hard to do it

[golden coral]

Perhaps not. Maybe with the stress test team, things can be tested, change for change, easier. Less of these massive changes and more smaller ones.

That would probably help out a lot in general for balance, both stat wise and in other cases such as diets and stuff.

[fresh laurel]

Not sure if Utah bite is on the development radar but hopefully it can be

With how risky trying to a land bite is, I kinda expect said bite to at least do something noticable

I hope you dont think I want Utah to go back to being able to just bite everything to death quickly without using pounce like in update 1

Think its possible to get Utah to have a more impactful bite without changing its reliance on pounce

[golden coral]

Didn't occur to me at all to be honest :p

[fresh laurel]

phew

[golden coral]

And yes, I have my own take on it, but I would like it if both played a part during a hunt. One after the other perhaps, so you first either bite or pounce ,and then use the other for the next step as it were.

I don't think utah should rely only on pounce, I think they should use both bites and pounce

The key is to make it so that one without the other isn't going to end the hunt

At least with how I'd like utah to function

[fresh laurel]

Problem with Utah only relying on pounce is that it can get quite predictable in a fight

[golden coral]

Though with current bleed, that might be a bit of an issue

Stupid health bar bleed.. :p

[fresh laurel]

I think that would be good

Kinda like how carno is?

Cant exactly always kill without using ram

but can still use bite effectively

[golden coral]

Sort of I guess. It's way late here now and I'm goddess be damned tired, but if you're around at a better time, I can explain my idea for utah if you'd like.

[fresh laurel]

Alr gn

[golden coral]

Bordering on too tired to think clearly by now xD

[fresh laurel]

sleep bruv

[tranquil pawn]

well technically bites from herbies friggin hurt, a horse has the same bite as a carnotaurus irl and even the bite of smth as small as a parrot if it gets a good grip is really damn painful lol. balance wise i get it but... y'know they need an attack that doesn't take stam, every herbivores good attacks (excluding hypsi and dryo) takes stam so if they're out they need a better alternative than wait for stam or don't lose stam.

[fresh laurel]

Thing is you got Utah a carnvivore that kinda specialized in using a bite...

[tranquil pawn]

well ofc a utah who had a specialized bite, (being a carnivore and all ) would have a higher biteforce than a stego but it doesn't not make sense for any of the playables not to have a bite

[fresh laurel]

Im fine with stego having a bite

[tranquil pawn]

[fresh laurel]

just not fine with it being close to utah bite this much

💀

[tranquil pawn]

[dusky surge]

i dont see the problem, personally

[fresh laurel]

I mean I kinda tried to explain whats weird with it above

[dusky surge]

utah is specialised in clawing with its GIANT claw toe

i really have never thought of utah as specialised in biting

[half girder]

#balance-feedback message pachy is so op rn dude, i think you dying to a utah or carno is a skill issue

@alpine plover

[alpine plover]

I never died to a utah

utahs are easy to kill as pachy im just primarily pointing out how fractures feel underwhelming against certain creatures like carno

[half girder]

pachy is super powerful rn its nuts

up4 pachy was so perfectly balanced

[alpine plover]

it really isn't if you played with all the animals to have a great understanding of each and every one of their stats

[fresh laurel]

I disagree a bit ngl

[alpine plover]

thank you

[fresh laurel]

U4 pachy still had some things to adjust

[dusky surge]

remember when people called pachy underpowered when U4.5 came out and nothing has changed with it since then lmao

[half girder]

tap charge is so balanced

[dusky surge]

its always had that

[fresh laurel]

tap ram was never really changed

iirc

[alpine plover]

besides dying to a carno, utah, and just every other dino able to kill you isn't skill issue it just depends on the condition of both players and how the fight is going based off landing the most hits while avoiding deadly attacks

[half girder]

they took it away tho cuz it was op then added it back lol

[alpine plover]

so I dont know what you mean by "skill issue" just to be a troll or ignorant

tap charge doesn't do much damage its great for stuns but can still be hard countered

[half girder]

none of the above, learn to maintain ur stam as pachy

[alpine plover]

trust me pachy stamina is not great wether you agree or not

[half girder]

it doesnt stun tho

not atm

[alpine plover]

🤦‍♂️

[half girder]

tap ram doesnt stun..

hope they bring back up4 pachy man, this one is soooo clunky and boring

[alpine plover]

look I ain't tryna start a big debate all im saying is pachy needs more stam because as an animal to defend itself from incoming danger it needs the ability to sustain itself to either escape or hold on into battle without dying because all my stamina is non-existent after 4 headbutts...

[half girder]

solo pachy isnt viable always play with a fren if u want to live

dont really have to worry about stam cuz the carno will run after fractures

[alpine plover]

carno will most of the time win I get but still stamina should be increased just for better manageability idk whats so hard to understand that...

[alpine plover]

even with a slowed leg its still a powerhouse another reason why fractures need to be more lethal against certain animals once again

and don't even get me started on head fractures

[half girder]

how about

they make solo pachy viable

[alpine plover]

pachy is solo viable, you just have to just the right opponents

[half girder]

against a super bad carno sure

[alpine plover]

pachy with groupmates you extend your chances of survivability and offensive power like all other groups in-game

[half girder]

but theyre always in grps

[alpine plover]

yep nowadays its like a bigger utah mentality

its rare finding a solo carno

[half girder]

pachys have been killing each other more than carnos lol

[alpine plover]

I agree with that

[half girder]

we have amazing kill lists

i see ur name u die

pachy is clunky, op, unfun.

bring back up4.

[dusky surge]

they actually nerfed tap ram latest patch

[half girder]

no shot?

fracture levels with current pachy... omg

legacy mode inbound

[alpine plover]

I'v heard some people complaining about charge doing no damage so I ain't surprised if those people using tap ram

[old hull]

i just really hope carno gets those dumb buffs reverted , they used to have some moments of vulnerabily that pachy and utah could exploit , now they turn so fast you have no opening

carno was doing just fine in the previous patch , if anything it was still too good then too

[alpine plover]

True

[dusky surge]

or you can nerf what SHOULD be nerfed about carno, which is its tracking, bleed and broken good juvi stage, rather than making it less good and less fun in stats it doesn't need to be nerfed in

[alpine plover]

You mean on Carno?

[craggy trench]

@quick latch what are those stats about? Can you give me a brief explanation

Okay no need anymore

[half girder]

yes

[quick latch]

Lol yea they are from pesky’s video the video links got taken down because it was viewed as advertising

[hasty coyote]

Pachy’s tap ram breaking carnos is a bug iirc, only a charged ram should stun and break a carno.

However I really dislike the “just find a group” or “they’re always in groups” mindset for dinos, everything should be viable solo (either able to run or fight). Pachy’s issue solo is that it needs to break and run, but breaks aren’t impactful enough and you can’t run because of tracking. This means solo pachies just die, but groups survive. So you only see them in groups because the solos are all dead. Plus, we can’t balance a Dino to force them in groups to be viable. Here are may main arguments against it: #balance-feedback message

[old hull]

by that logic lets curbstomp nerf carnos because they are always in megapacks ;)

[dusky surge]

i fail to see how that's at all what's implied

"Pachy shouldn't be forced into groups to survive" = "nerf carnos to the ground because they megapack sometimes"???

[old hull]

just poking fun at people who do think pachy should stay shit because its always in groups

[dusky surge]

ah, okay

yea, i also think that mindset is stupid

(also carnos can just run from pachies pre-headbutt and i really don't know WHY they get so pissed over them)

every time I've SEEN a carno beaten by a pachy herd, it's almost always the carno that is the initial aggressor

[old hull]

pretty much , but its the typical dummy carnivore player mentality , i should be able to curb stomp everything because i picked big chompa dino

[hollow canyon]

it's more so that Pachy is really goddamn good in groups, the issue is that it's pathetic solo

[dusky surge]

pachy probably has the best power scaling with numbers, even more-so than utah

i can acknowledge that

i dont think any animal is as good a pack animal as pachy is rn

[hollow canyon]

tbh I think Pachy's just broken it will be either bad or good with how it currently is, it needs some slight changes imo to be more enjoyable to both play and play against

[dusky surge]

although, this reliance on groups is a weakness. The moment a pachy falls behind the herd or is picked off, the every pachy in that herd is weaker for it

pachy is just so weird

its either awful or amazing

[old hull]

with the expection of teno , both carno and utah can still just avoid combat with a big pachy group entirely so they are not that good

[wispy valley]

I honestly don't agree with nerfing Deino's health in Pesky's video.. It's an 8 ton animal and mildly armored, so it should be naturally tanky. Maybe not 8000 health, but maybe 7000.

[half girder]

pachy is ass but op, weird

up4 was viable solo and balanced in groups

[wispy valley]

But I feel devs should at least take a look at the balance of this game and take into consideration what they can fix.

[half girder]

i miss it so much

[wispy valley]

Like, ACTUALLY crunch in damage and numbers and include combos

[half girder]

nerf carno movement or revert pachy

[wispy valley]

Carno needs a turn radius nerf while running and more drift.

[half girder]

cuz up4 pachy against this carno would be so much fun ngl

[wispy valley]

But carno weighs 3x as much. Pachys shouldn't be dominating carnos all the time.

Yeah, two pachys against one carno, I would book it.

[half girder]

thats if the carno is bad man

its not rocket science to presss a or d

and then fracture levels are coming with current pachy so solo is a death wish

its sad

ill take it with up4 pachy but current? literally legacy mode

[hasty coyote]

I’d instead say to rework the way ram works slightly, so it’s better defensively than offensively. 1:make ram canceled with left click, 2: make a charged ram last infinitely unless you’re sprinting, and 3: make ram turn faster while not moving.
These should keep pachy able to go on the offensive, but much better at defending itself. It’s not just a stat buff and shouldn’t make groups too much more powerful unless they are on the defensive.

Then also see what fracture severity does and what we need to change, please make fractures get worse if you keep using them. I don’t want carnos walking off a leg fracture.

[old hull]

pachy was more then fine before , carno was and is alot faster so if the carno player lets pachy break his leg then thats his fault

just like if a pachy isn't paying attention and gets pounced by a raptor , his fault so he dies

carno players just want more get out of jail free cards even tho being the fastest is already just that

[fresh laurel]

wasnt up4 pachy stronger in groups than current pachy?

[half girder]

no lol

[fresh laurel]

pretty sure it was

[half girder]

carnos were just bad at the game and oasis was insane

[fresh laurel]

You could avoid oasis

Carno are still bad at the game

[half girder]

i had no prob killing pachys

[fresh laurel]

probaby because people were getting used to pachy?

I mean did you see tenos on release?

[half girder]

months after it released it was still pretty easy

[hollow canyon]

Why would current Pachy be stronger in groups than update 4 Pachy?

[half girder]

hitboxes are odd, leg fractures can happen from the front or even head, leg is super easy to hit plus tap charge insta fracture

[hasty coyote]

Only difference is that rib breaks are actually good

[hasty coyote]

Tap charges don’t unless it’s a raptor. Or the rare bug

[half girder]

its not rare

i do it alot lol

[unborn iris]

On carnos?

[half girder]

and again this pachy with levels of fracture isnt going to go well

forcing players to play in packs with certain dinos is balls

yes on carnos.

[hollow canyon]

...is leg super easy to hit? Last I've tried it seemed completely random

I am not sure whether that was before the last patch or after it

btw just a reminder that update 4 Pachy could use tapram to stop the attacks of every animal in the game

idk I think that's something that's hard to compete with

[half girder]

up4 with a slightly lower stun window and for now, depending on how charged the headbutt is has a timer, somewhat like pot on that certain part of the body, heads ofc take 2x so lets say u charge for 1 second, that can be a 30 second leg break, a 2 second charge 1 minute and full 3 minutes, hitting that same spot would reset the timer, feel like its a cool way to stop pachy kos if the other player is good with movement

[hollow canyon]

Idk if they're "good" but update 4 body fractures were just bugged

[hasty coyote]

Head on seems mostly random due to lag

[half girder]

it is lol

[half girder]

that was on qa

[hollow canyon]

It was on live build too

that thing went live

[half girder]

the fractures or stun?

[hollow canyon]

the thing where Pachy cancelled the attacks of Stegos and Deinos

[half girder]

ahhh that bug ok

yeah i never really did that so..

[hollow canyon]

it was really powerful if used correctly

although it was an obvious bug, good thing it got fixed

[half girder]

yeah that would be aids

[hollow canyon]

but idk, Pachy's just broken and will likely remain this way for the foreseeable future

[half girder]

yeah sadly, unfun fast

[hollow canyon]

it has the most easily applied hard control in the game so

[half girder]

up4 was legendary

[hollow canyon]

balancing that out to work in a sensible way without being oppressive will be difficult

[half girder]

soon pachy will feel like legacy pachy anyway

[hollow canyon]

what's coming soon that will make Pachy so bad?

[hasty coyote]

Pachy is going to end up in the garbage smalls pile like dryo and hypsi

[hollow canyon]

I doubt it

[hasty coyote]

Fracture severity, it could either make or break pachy

[hollow canyon]

I do see them quite often whenever I play the game unlike the other two

[hollow canyon]

you think... that's coming "soon"?

Ah, an optimist I see

I doubt that's going to be added this year

I'd be absolutely shocked if it was

[half girder]

well pachy will be so bad when it does come

[hollow canyon]

a hundred things might change by the time the devs release that

[hasty coyote]

Depends on how they do it. Will pachy only do light fractures? Or will it do medium fractures that get worse over time to be even worse than the fractures we have now?

[half girder]

no idea.

i hope they do it where a full charge is instantly a medium fracture putting the dino down 25% of its speed

[hasty coyote]

I just hope they do something to help pachy, I don’t want 2 playables to be nonexistent, and another 2 be buggy messes, utah is bad enough.

[half girder]

and level 3 max puts it down 50% like now

[hasty coyote]

I hope max is much more for carno

Limping carno is nearly the same speed as pachy

[half girder]

2 second charge will do maybe 15% and 1 second 7%?

cant be too harsh and again they want pachy to always run even in groups, immersion nice, gameplay and fun bad

[hasty coyote]

1 sec is max charge atm

[hasty coyote]

Pachy shouldn’t always run, running should be the easiest option though. If you force 4 pachies to run from 1 carno, then 3 will easily slaughter them with no chance to run.

[half girder]

mhm

[hasty coyote]

Plus, if you never need to worry about a pachy killing you, then there’s no reason to not fight them, and they can’t avoid the fight.

[half girder]

carnos need to get gud at ambushing tbh

i do it all the time

ez kills

and pachy cam being literally on its ass is pretty annoying with the slow turning

[old hull]

i like peskys ideas almost 100% , if i were to add something to it is reduce carnos bitespeed since you gave it back the dmg , and reducing it would stop the brainless playstyle most carnos do of just w + left click spam

that or just bluntly make left click bites for everything take stamina , because no creatures in this game should just be allowed to brainlessly spam bites and win fights

[drowsy furnace]

why would it take stam to open your mouth and bite T_T

[old hull]

same reason it takes stamina to lift my legs and kick lol

example , in peskys stat suggestion carno can dish out the exact same dmg as tenos kick with a bite that he can use on the move , and it costs nothing

meanwhile tenos kick is tricky to use and if you miss you lose stam

it just bugs me that every other dino in evrima has this tricky to use high stam cost ability that they NEED to use to get kills/defend themselves properly , and carno gets to just ignore his and have 175 free dmg at anytime with no punishment for missing

[drowsy furnace]

imagine weighing as much as it does and balancing on your hands and kicking... and its front legs look smaller

[old hull]

you guys focus too much on weights , have you ever played a videogame? having more health should not equal a guarantee win

and if you wanna go with the realism bs , irl rn majority of predators hunt prey much heavier then they are , and they manage

[drowsy furnace]

what does this have to do with making a carno's bite take stam

or a teno's kick

I mean I agree with you that the brainless people are annoying but why give carno something dumb?

[old hull]

to punish said brainless playstyle

[drowsy furnace]

think about it tho

a brainless carno usually loses fights

[old hull]

even so , you still dont have to use your ability to win fights as a carno , you can kill everything except stego and deino with just bites and its not even that difficult

while every other dino has been changed so they cant do that without it being painfully inneficient

[drowsy furnace]

what are you even complaining about? what is allo, cera, alberto, rex, and even giga gonna do then?

not bite?

[old hull]

i sure as shit hope not , thats legacy trash gameplay

they established that evrima will give dinos abilities so they can do what they are supposed to do , and carno is no exception , its charge is hyper lethal when used properly but you dont HAVE to use it while litterally everything else does

[drowsy furnace]

bro.. it has a charge and a bite... tf is it gonna do? spam charge?

teno's best move is tail slam.... so people spam tail slam

[old hull]

yeah an attack which you need to aim and if you miss it costs stam so you get punished for poor timing

does carno get punished for missing a bite? fuck no

[drowsy furnace]

yea.... that's it's secondary ability... when you left click no other dino gets punished for left click

what about deino and stego? what punishment they got?

I'm sorry carno's main attack is it's bite?

[old hull]

because the other dinos left clicks were either always weak or have been nerfed heavily (utah)

carnos bite should be a finisher , something you use to do extra trash dmg to an already injured opponent

not its main fucking weapon with a charge as an extra

[drowsy furnace]

utah is a bleeder... your not supposed to keep biting til its dead

[drowsy furnace]

soo your telling me... you want a carno to ram something... bite and call it a day?

carno's ram is used for maybe 2 extra bites... then they SPAM BITE.... tf they gonna do after the ram?

[keen plover]

wait

carno bite taking stam??

[old hull]

legit dont know what you are not getting , how would slowing carnos bite down or making it cost stam change that part of it lol

[drowsy furnace]

bc that's dumb

[old hull]

you would obviously still bite after a charge , but if you did what i suggested then carnos cant just w + left click spam pachys to death as effortlessly as they do rn

[drowsy furnace]

it's supposed to be easy to kill a pachy

it's like 4 feet tall

and besides pachys can just dodge it

[old hull]

pfft , have you played pachy?

and you now established that you are one of those legacy morons that thinks duuh im bigger so i should win by default so im done wasting my time on you

[drowsy furnace]

?

pachys shouldn't win against carnos

[drowsy furnace]

more weight = more health.... you said yourself that carno should win then

[drowsy furnace]

also.... IT'S 4 FUCKING FEET TALL all it can do is cripple me and run

well... what it should do

[drowsy furnace]

if you like his idea then you should know pachy is an ez kill for carno

[dusky surge]

one problem i have with pesky's video, he doeesn't mention altbites

despite the fact that altbites do indeed do different amounts of damage a lot of the time

[drowsy furnace]

you mean like how easy abilities are to use?

[dusky surge]

what

im talking about alt bites

not abilities

[drowsy furnace]

oh I thought you mis spelled abilities T_T

mb

he did for the useful ones tho... like teno's claw... Idk if he mentioned any others tho

[dusky surge]

headswing, utah claw, carno alt, all have generally higher damage than base bite

[fresh laurel]

HOW IS UTAH ALT A CLAW ANIMATION

[fresh laurel]

why would you make carno base bite cost stam and his alt bite also cost stam... also you do know Carno already has some meh stam

[old hull]

teno and pachy have all of their useful attacks cost stam too lol why is carno so special

[fresh laurel]

those are herbivores... their attacks are heavy hitting or cc plus those are their specials

their lmb is a bite like Carno

Plus how do you expect Carno to keep spamming its ram while chasing after prey if needed

You cant exactly use ram as freely as a tail swing or headbutt

[old hull]

you act like the left click costing stamina means you just cant use it anymore

the only difference it would make is punish braindead gameplay from carnos , and make them actually make their bites count

no more spam left clicking and more precise bites

bad tenos get punished for spamming kicks and slams , carnos should also be punished for braindead spam

[hollow canyon]

Because they apply CC with those attacks

and ngl... I think that if Carno was to get a CC on its bite it would be pretty broken even if it did cost stamina(or perhaps not on bite but on the... what was it that people were suggesting for it? A headswing or something?)

[old hull]

oh god no , pls dont give that thing anything else

its already beyond busted as it is xD

man do i wish the carno was broken in one of these updates and just stayed broken for a good 6-7 months , we have had many where utah and pachy dont work lol

[hollow canyon]

Idk what kind of thinking that is, I'd rather have Utah and Pachy finally get fixed than have another dinosaur added to the list of the broken ones that do not work

Then again them being broken is not really surprising since they rely on more complex mechanics and are just far more complicated in terms of their design, no wonder they are more broken than the likes of Carno and Stego

[old hull]

in a perfect world these damn dinos would work and be balanced , but we are very far from that so best i can hope for is for the game to break in ways that actually benefit us indirectly

too many months of nothing but braindead carno megapacks thinking they are actually even semi decent at this game , i would love a change of pace