balance-feedback-discussion

[fresh laurel]

so 2 induvial pounces does smaller bleed than 2 utahs pouncing at the same time?

[azure crescent]

yeah its weird

[fresh laurel]

doesnt make sense?

[azure crescent]

it stacks like crazy

[azure crescent]

i know, its weird

[fresh laurel]

why would it differ depending on the amount of raptors

compared to number of pounces

Seems to only benefit duos but I guess thats what Utah is suppose to do?

[azure crescent]

i guess so

[fresh laurel]

just seems to make solo fighting a bit sad

[azure crescent]

true haha but a full normal pounce is still pretty good

can deal a solid 500 bleed or more if prey moves

not % of course lol

[fresh laurel]

500 bleed one shots pachy noice

[hasty coyote]

It multiplies from what I heard, so being pounced by like 3 utahs at once is just death

[fresh laurel]

also how is bleed drain speed taken into account

[azure crescent]

if it moves a lot then yes

[fresh laurel]

wait so like 1 pounce x 2?

for 2 raptors?

[azure crescent]

i mean it does it quite fast, in like 3 minutes or less

[azure crescent]

i think the speed doubles and the amount does a bit more than double

[hasty coyote]

And people say utah pounce does nothing to pachy compared to pachy ram against utah

[fresh laurel]

I never really had trouble fighting pachy in this patch ngl

though back when it didnt get the turn nerf while ramming it was a bit scary ngl

[azure crescent]

and people say pachy is overpowered against utah AND CARNO

[hasty coyote]

It’s something like 1 utah does 1, 2 at once does like 3, 3 at once does like 5.

[fresh laurel]

I remember seeing 3 Pachys jump a Carno and kill it

[azure crescent]

^ some crazy stuff

[fresh laurel]

thats a weird ramp up

[azure crescent]

once me and someone else were fighting a pachy and it missed a ram, we both pounced it at the same time and it died within the same minute i think

[hasty coyote]

I have only fought utahs a few times, 3 of my big fights have been me sitting on a rock and bashing them off. Mostly comes down to the utahs actually landing a pounce and being patient.

[hasty coyote]

Oh yeah that sounds about right

[fresh laurel]

I remember being in a 8 man Utah pack and we saw a pachy
shall I elaborate?

[azure crescent]

the poor thing

[hasty coyote]

The issue is that both their main abilities basically 1-shot each other, both have a lot of end lag after a miss, and both bug out a lot.

[fresh laurel]

Died in mere seconds

[hasty coyote]

Poor guy lol

[fresh laurel]

how do you bug pachy ram doe
utah pounce i get since collision but pachy ram?

[azure crescent]

1 vs 1 is pachy sided
1 vs 2 is equal but slightly pachy sided
1 vs 3 and more is a dead pachy
(assuming all players have the same skill level)

[desert tundra]

That against a Utah right?

[azure crescent]

yes

[desert tundra]

👍✨

[hasty coyote]

Lag and terrible hitboxes, combined they make an ability only hit half the time

[hasty coyote]

I’d say 1v2 is more utah sided personally, but I don’t have the most experience fighting utahs either.

[azure crescent]

most pachy players panick if outnumbered but if its a smart player they will be defensive and therefore will make the utahs hesitate more

[hasty coyote]

Otherwise, sounds about right. That matchup is good once the abilities work.

[hasty coyote]

I would personally prefer if they made the ram more defensive than offensive. You can use it to run at someone who can’t dodge it (like carno) or stand your ground against things like utahs

[fresh laurel]

carno hitbox now explain

[azure crescent]

i would love the ability to control how long your ramming stance lasts depending on whether you move or not

[hasty coyote]

Yep, just yep.

[fresh laurel]

man carno hitbox might be on legacy rex levels

[hasty coyote]

I’d like them to make the ram last until you cancel it, change the cancel to a left click rather than looking at the floor, and not nerf turn while you stand still or walk.

[fresh laurel]

and also can we see adjustments to small dinosaurs tail hits? they do a weird lot of a dmg

[hasty coyote]

Ark giga levels, I have seen a utah get bit from behind a carno’s legs

[azure crescent]

sadly the only way a dryo can survive a carno is to try and get bitten on the tail instead of literally anywhere else

[fresh laurel]

I hope update 5 fix that carno hitbox doe

[fresh laurel]

my question is why do tail hits hurt as much as they do to smalls?

[azure crescent]

i’m assuming its because of their low max hp

[fresh laurel]

and killing with pure tail hits is quite funky to me ngl

[azure crescent]

cause the dmg reduction is like the same

[fresh laurel]

I mean as in why dont they have a smaller dmg reduction

[azure crescent]

no idea

[fresh laurel]

like does it look like a stego swiping utah tail would hurt as much as it does now?

or a better example
getting rammed on the tail for some reason is pretty damaging

[wispy valley]

Thoughts?

[frail bobcat]

Carno is good currently, its a threat and when more dinos get added to the rooster there will be less problems with mega packs

But a charge rework would be cool

[golden coral]

If anything, carno should be more damage and less bleed. Drift I could see, simply cause it makes it a bit more interesting. And no fractures for a charge, we've tried that, it was not a good time.

[wispy valley]

How would ramming into something with the weight of a car at 35 miles an hour not cause fractures?

Nani

[golden coral]

Balance in game before realism, at least to some degree. And I think if carno charged like that, it'd be more likely to break it's own neck than do what it does in the game anyway. Aside from that, like I said, carno charge had fractures, it wasn't good or fun. So no thank you on that one, unless you can make it so one charge isn't just death due to said fractures.

[tall bronze]

To be fair, when Carno had fractures, that's with the current no-severities fractures. When you get a fracture right now, it's just "you're either fractured or not."

But once severities come, we can have things like "A Carno charged you and gave you a mild body fracture!" so it's not as bad and has variability. Once those come, I can see Carno (and many other things) getting fracture potential. Plus fractures need to not be considered a "special" thing, just an injury

[golden coral]

Possible, but then that would be for when that is the case, and thus not something to be changed as of now. But it's not really needed anyway due to carno knocking things down or stunning, which is plenty effective on it's own. Same why teno tailslam does no fracture I would imagine, there's no need, you knock things down or stun them so you have useful CC as it stands.

[tall bronze]

Oh yeah right now fractures for more stuff would be bad 😛

But in the future I definitely think it should be similar to bleed where many things can do it, just certain things focus on it. And yeah, even if you don't need it per se, it could still help deter 24/7 fighting since injuries would be more severe. As long as it makes sense for it to happen. (eg; Teno kicks a Utah in the face, that's obviously a fracture :P)

[golden coral]

True, I've seen some people thinking stego swing should also do fractures, which I guess make some sense as well then.

[tall bronze]

It definitely should in the future 😛 It's massive spikes being rammed into ya. Don't like it? Be more careful then >:D

[wintry mountain]

Still trying to figure out why people think that the walk turn buff also meant its sprint turn was buffed(Carno)

Can agree on the major points of hitbox and bleed, both of which are far to overtuned on Carno specifically

but reducing its turn any further kinda undermines the whole point of a threat to smalls, as now there's no thought required in escaping one in its own element

[azure crescent]

carlos, teno is more than 3 times bigger than utah

[spare badger]

Did it affect the drift at all?

[wintry mountain]

Drift was not changed, no

Walk and Turn in place

[spare badger]

Is it he acceleration that makes it worse?

[wintry mountain]

acceleration again doesnt mess with those values

just means it hits top speed faster

[spare badger]

Yea
So it can stop, turn and chase faster, making it feel like carno turns better

Even tho it doesn't

[wintry mountain]

pr much

We could mess with the drift more, but that's a slippery slope in of itself

I'd like to see the hitbox toned back first

and ofc bleed

We've seen time and time again that these massive all in one changes dont work well, often over nerfing or buffing

[spare badger]

Yea
But the devs seem to prefer big updates rather than incremental ones, which makes balancing a lot harder

[dusky surge]

agreed, nerfing bleed, tracking and juvi perks (stamina/diets) would do wonders for making this animal more in-line with the rest of the roster while not sacrificing, but rather heightening, it's identity

[thin mantle]

@subtle berry The last thing teno needs is for it's kick damage to be nerfed to compensate for the fact that utahs are small and weak, ffs teno's hind legs are nearly the same size as utahs whole torso, getting kicked in the face by 1 of those should fucking end you, it's moreso unrealistic that it doesn't already, but for balancing purposes it requires 2 hits, which is perfectly fine

[tranquil pawn]

^^^^^

[subtle berry]

Then they have to buff utah's hp

[thin mantle]

Why

You make it seem like it’s a problem that Utah is that vulnerable to teno’s combos

[subtle berry]

Because that makes Utah in a real bad and weak place while facing a teno...

And Utah os supposed to be a little bit strong

Is*

[thin mantle]

Not at all, if you’re getting hit when fighting a teno as a Utah that’s your fault for not understanding the way in which utah is balanced. You’re not meant to take any damage playing Utah, your whole purpose and balance is around hit avoidance

Utah has greater agility speed and acceleration than teno along with being much smaller, it also has pounce, it’s options are immense

[dusky surge]

teno is designed to be good at dealing with utah

if it wasnt, it'd just die to them

[thin mantle]

Getting stunned should guarantee your death if the teno can’t get distracted in time

Especially since you’re being smashed by a tail bigger than you are, you’re a dromeosaur made of paper machete and needles, even proportionally you’re designed to be light and weak

This kinda reminds me of when people thought Utah should be able to tank a single hit from a stego, as if that doesn’t radically alter their dynamic negatively

[subtle berry]

Yeah, you are right, I agree, but the problem is that if you kicked, your chances of surviving is pretty much 0 and is a little bit unfair. But ok, you are right. No need to nerf teno.

[thin mantle]

That’s kinda the point, getting hit by an attack that ends your life should reduce your odds of survival to 0, but yeah good chat

[dusky surge]

the best way to survive is move in packs. Distracted tenos give opportunities to either flee or attack, depending on what the teno prioritises and your current situation

if a teno is trying to follow up on a kick for a kill confirm, he isn't bucking

if a teno is bucking and trying to get rid of utahs attacking it, it isn't following up

[hollow canyon]

@vale harness

I generally agree with pretty much everything you said there - although to be perfectly honest I wouldn't be opposed to mountain ash BEING in that swamp, we generally just need every plant to be present in more places on the map rather just in one particular spot - however I have to point out that according to what I've seen and tested before Tenonto's kick hitbox works as intended(one of the few attacks that work as intended).

I'd say that every other attack should be brought in line with Tenonto's kick hitbox, as most if not all of them are bugged in one way or another. Tenonto's kick seems like it's bad only because it has a worse attack socket than all the bugged attacks like Carno's xenomorph jaws.

[vale harness]

tenos kick goes plenty high. however, it seems to be shaped like a upside down ramp starting from tenos tail, finishing at the bottom of its feet. cause i've pinned carnos, then had my feet go through their head but not even hit.

but i do agree. most animals should have their hitbox's re-evaluated. honestly the only part i really care about with fixing carno, is fixing the fact that they can snipe me from a ways away with their hitbox.

[hollow canyon]

Yes, unfortunately the bite attack sockets are just seemingly set up wrong resulting in situations like these, Carno specifically is a big beneficiary of the issues that arise from this.

This is an absolute menace while facing a Carno and severely disadvantages Tenonto as it can just get bitten from outside of the range of its kick.

I think these two animals would be pretty decently balanced if it wasn't for this(although I'm still in favour of reducing the stamina cost on both the kick and the tailslam).

[hollow canyon]

Also regarding Tenonto - I'm really not sure about its hitbox being wrong, I tested it quite at length and it seemed to connect precisely only when it should from what I've seen, unlike pretty much every other attack in the game.

[wintry mountain]

Disadvantages simply by being a reasonable attack hitbox

[hollow canyon]

@alpine plover Idk where in the world you got that idea from. Carnotaurus irl had a pretty beefy bite for a theropod of that size. It bit harder than a same-sized Allosaurus and significantly harder than an Alligator. Its low biteforce in the game is more so due to the fact that it has to be balanced in some way(in general an accurate Carno would be extremely oppressive to large chunks of the roster).

[hollow canyon]

I actually completely agree with this, if you don't know something just beware of talking as you just end up spreading misinformation.

Allosaurus having a biteforce of 33000N is just... absurd

Idk where you're getting those values from, that's a higher biteforce than a Giganotosaurus and it rivals tyrannosaurids

That's pretty much exactly the biteforce estimate of Daspletosaurus torosus

We're talking about a specimen of tyrannosaurid that reached in excess of 3t which makes it a larger animal than any confirmed Allosaurus fragilis.

The biteforce of Carnotaurus according to Rowe, Snively et al. from last year was estimated at 10kN+. Also its mandible shows a great degree of stress resistance that surpasses most theropods.

The same study estimates the biteforce of Allosaurus(UUVP 6000=DINO 2560) at some 8kN+, this specimen is roughly the size of Carno holotype, perhaps slightly smaller.

How in the world do you know that? Carnotaurus is the only confirmed animal from its formation at its stratigraphic level. We really don't know what animals it co-existed with.

Allosaurus also very likely wasn't an "apex" due to the fact that it co-existed with theropods larger than itself such as Torvosaurus and Saurophaganax.

[tranquil pawn]

Ok do whatever the heck you want but if you want realistic carno, slow it down and remove the charge, this is a game and the fast charge knock down niche creature shouldn't have a strong bite force, huh?

[hollow canyon]

Carno most definitely shouldn't have a strong bite in the game

Also realistically it likely was indeed slower than in the game.

then again most dinosaurs were and it would be really silly to try to make them as fast as irl

[tranquil pawn]

Ok so what's the debate about?

[hollow canyon]

About the misinformation he is spreading.

Carno's biteforce is where it should be in the game

[tranquil pawn]

For its niche isn't it too much?

[hollow canyon]

It is threeshotting Utahs and Pachys exactly as it should

[tranquil pawn]

Realistically idek but for example let's say it is realistic in bite force, for its niche it should have a weaker bite

[hollow canyon]

It needs some 10 bites to kill a Tenonto assuming its landing bodyshots which is also exactly where it should be.

Its bite is perfectly fine for its niche.

[tranquil pawn]

I disagree, it's quite a bit too strong

Rn carno players don't even use charge because they can bite down their victims

[hollow canyon]

Charge is just bad

I don't use it either because it's kind of a trash very niche ability

Most of all - charge is an absolutely awful pick for a small game hunter

[tranquil pawn]

Too bad, that's the animals niche, ambush predator that runs down its prey and knocks them over

[hollow canyon]

it just doesn't fit Carno's niche

[tranquil pawn]

Too bad

[hollow canyon]

Carno's not an ambush predator and charge isn't a tool designed around ambush hunting

[tranquil pawn]

If it has the charge niche it needs a weaker bite

[hollow canyon]

Good cause it doesn't have "the charge niche"

[tranquil pawn]

Irl maybe not but it has the fastest sprint ingame with the charge mechanic

[hollow canyon]

I'm not talking about irl

[tranquil pawn]

And what it should be doing with that niche is bushing it's prey

[hollow canyon]

Carno has the charge niche to the same extent that Dryo has the dodge niche

[tranquil pawn]

Pretty sure it is, ambush your prey, charge em down, get a few good bites in, rinse and repeat

[hollow canyon]

You don't, you just run your prey down and kill it out in the open where there are no obstacles that it could use to get away from you

If you're getting ambushed by Carno... I mean idk what to tell you? Stop watching youtube while playing the game I guess?

[tranquil pawn]

That's not how it was intended, tf is the point of the mechanic the Devs spent so long making if all you do is find prey in an open field and boom they're dead?

[hollow canyon]

Well no, they're not dead

I've gotten away from Carnos out in the open on multiple occasions

[tranquil pawn]

Have you even played evrima in the last month

[hollow canyon]

Yea

A tiny bit though

[tranquil pawn]

Have you seen the range of that bite? It's twice the length of its body

It's the fastest thing and now has the ability to absolutely screw utahs

With its agility

And even stegos get easily killed by them

[hollow canyon]

I've played Utah vs Carno just fine, the only thing that eventually got me killed was the pounce bugging out.

[tranquil pawn]

To play carno rn requires literally 3 braincells

[hollow canyon]

If you're dying to Carno as a Stego idk what to tell you

[tranquil pawn]

I'm not the stego... I never play stego

Stego is just nasty

[hollow canyon]

Do send the video of you killing a Stego as a Carno though

[tranquil pawn]

I don't take videos Bucko

[hollow canyon]

Cause idk... you either have to be dying to Carnos as a Stego or killing Stegos as a Carno

[tranquil pawn]

I'm not a YouTuber if you couldn't tell

[hollow canyon]

You don't have to be a youtuber to make a video what are you talking about?

[tranquil pawn]

Ok we're getting off topic

[hollow canyon]

I'd say we're done with this topic

[tranquil pawn]

Why would I waste my time taking videos? Anyways whatever

[tranquil pawn]

Agreed

[hollow canyon]

To provide some evidence for the absurd claims you're making

[tranquil pawn]

Ok I can't- this is why i try to stay away from balance feedback, it's the most controversial and opinionated and judgemental place on islecord , I'm out dude.

[hollow canyon]

In general what you're saying is just... wrong, there's a grain of truth in certain parts of what you're saying but you greatly exaggerate it for one reason or another.

e.g. the bite hitbox that you're talking about

I'm the one who's made the videos about it(and no, that doesn't make me a youtuber)

Here you have it

Carno's hitbox extends roughly 1 yard in front of it

It needs a fix badly

as I've pointed above if you scroll up

this is a big issue because it screws over a lot of animals, especially Tenonto that ends up getting bitten from outside of the range of its kick

[hollow canyon]

Trust me, if you start talking nonsense in Isle discussion and I notice that I will be just as judgmental and call you out on the nonsense you're saying.

[tranquil pawn]

U do U bud

[hollow canyon]

I wish I could say the same

but for the sake of the game - don't

[tranquil pawn]

It's quite a ton coming from you but I'll let that slide

[hollow canyon]

This is from the study I spoke of before

the last value is the force that the masseter muscles could produce while biting

the second from the right is how it compares to an American Alligator

the next one to the left is the mandibular ramus length

that's... old

like 20+ years old

my guy, I'm showing you a study from last year

that thing is from the 90s

yea things change, especially in paleontology

https://anatomypubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ar.24602

I'm showing you a study that was dedicated to studying the biteforces of theropods

one that was conducted last year, using contemporary methods and estimating von Misses stress upon the maxilla and mandible of theropods

What year is the book from?

What's the title?

Sure go for it however honestly you might want to DM me about this and note that I'm going to work in a second so I will likely respond in a few hours when I'm back, we probably shouldn't continue this conversation in this channel

[noble wave]

How are you supposed to survive as tenonto once out of stam? Once you're out you literally can't do anything whereas carno can just spam bite

[golden coral]

How many carnos were involved?

[alpine plover]

@stark knoll i dont have the clip but earlier and pachy did a 180 on me and right clicked me and broke my legs

[stark knoll]

So it turned in place and tap rammed you?

[alpine plover]

yes

but the tap ram turned it

[stark knoll]

Yea, you can turn while charging it

[alpine plover]

nah what i mean is i was literally behind him standing still and he was still too when all of a sudden he phases through time and space and instantly 180 tap rams me. maybe it was desync, maybe it was lag. all ik is that it was BS.

im guessing it was lag or something but it was horrible

[versed rune]

just read the whole biteforce discussion. Even putting all scientific papers and analyses aside, i fail to understand who in their right mind would come to the conclusion that an animal that evolved to be a literal mouth on legs while ALSO having a short, rounded skull would have a weak bite force

[alpine plover]

they’re just carno haters bro. thats literally all there is to it.

Balance Feedback is just ppl wanting to buff the dinos they like and nerf the ones they die to due to their incompetence.

[fresh laurel]

maybe it was the alt attack?

[alpine plover]

nah, it leg fractured me.

[fresh laurel]

yup thats the alt attack

[alpine plover]

alt attack breaks bones?

[fresh laurel]

apparently

[alpine plover]

since when?

[fresh laurel]

ok fr though describe the animation

like how did the pachy turn to hit you?...

[fresh laurel]

?

[alpine plover]

no animation. it turned instantly. it was 100% the right click.

[fresh laurel]

think desync plus lag spike

[alpine plover]

ye fr

[azure crescent]

tap charge can turn you like 90 degrees

[noble wave]

Anyone think that there should be something to stop carno from just being able to run away when it's low on health? Tenontos don't have this option, especially when fighting multiple carnos

[golden coral]

You do have some options, such as using terrain (water especially) and so on. And if you're solo vs multiple carnos, you're.. kind of not meant to handle that all too well.

[keen plover]

No, because that would suck for the carno. It has the perk of being the fastest runner- so it should be able to avoid risks if it decides to run off

Also that would just make things more tedious and would probably translate into other species of such a thing was done

[native berry]

getting so sick of dying because you met a few coordinated carnos

there is nothing you can do against it

@raw cypress they nerfed dryos?

[raw cypress]

Less attack damage, slower iirc, might have less stam too

[native berry]

ah I see because so many played dryo and dominated the map they had to nerf it

[raw cypress]

They didnt dominate the map

[native berry]

:p

[raw cypress]

It was just balanced

[native berry]

I know it was sarcastic but almost nobody played dryo in the past and almost nobody is playing it today

[hollow canyon]

You have no idea what you're talking about

Old update 3.5 Dryo was completely broken

[golden coral]

As what, if I may ask?

[raw cypress]

How to tell somebody mains Utah:

[hollow canyon]

Is it by the fact that they make such ridiculous statements as you do?

[native berry]

pachy or tenno, most carnos post no threat to me but some are coordinated and charge me so I barely cant dodge it and when 1 hits they all go on me and insta kill me

[raw cypress]

bet you played no alt servers

[hollow canyon]

You bet wrong

[native berry]

what was broken about it?

[stark knoll]

Be constructive

[hollow canyon]

75N biteforce, absurd growth time, speed and agility and a decent amount of health. You could actually kill A LOT of things with the old Dryo.

[raw cypress]

Because this is constructive

[golden coral]

Ah, yeah pachy I can see. As teno you should be able to run if not fight multiple carnos. At least if you utilize your swimming capabilities. As pachy I guess.. forest and crouch if you're not bleeding. But in most cases, if you do, as solo, run into multiple carnos, especially coordinated ones, you're going to be in severe trouble, that's just how it is.

[hollow canyon]

What I said there was a fact

[native berry]

I mean nerfing the bite force would have been enough right?

[hollow canyon]

you have no idea what you're talking about

[hollow canyon]

That's exactly what got nerfed about it

[native berry]

I just checked and everything got nerfed

from blood hp to speed

[hollow canyon]

Where did you check it?

[native berry]

steam updates

[hollow canyon]

blood and hp got nerfed on every creature smaller than Deino and Stego

the devs basically equated the weights and hp pools at the time

blood=hp so that was also nerfed

again - on every animal

[native berry]

but do you think its in a okay spot right now?

[hollow canyon]

It's in a more sensible spot than it was previously but Dryo is just conceptually bad and needs some reworks and additional stuff

nobody played it when it was broken level of good either

[native berry]

I can agree on that

[hollow canyon]

well a handful of people that actually knew how the game worked and how oppressive this little thing could be in the hands of a competent player did

[native berry]

I mean it can still kill all the babies except stegos

[hollow canyon]

It can kind of but at the time you could maul adult stegos with it

It was just absurd whenever it was handled by a player that could actually utilise it

there were like 3 such people aware of how absurd this animal was at the time

you just spawned in, sat it in some bush and went afk for 30 minutes to get back to a fully grown animal that was quite capable of killing stuff

didn't have to eat, didn't have to drink, just fresh spawn to full adult in a single go to get an animal that never died unless you were afk or actively looking for death

while also being quite capable of killing stuff if you wanted to do that

[native berry]

yeah that wasnt right then

but right now its not capable of surviving except hiding behind other herbies

[hollow canyon]

The animal is just not very well implemented but that isn't a reason to make it what it shouldn't be

[hollow canyon]

What's killing you when you're a Dryo?

[native berry]

raptors or carnos that are deticated

[hollow canyon]

Carno shouldn't be able to touch a fully grown Dryo

[native berry]

carnos is not the biggest problem no

[hollow canyon]

Utah is the same speed while having a lower stamina pool

admittedly the tracking is way too good atm and kind of screws the escaping animal over but

[native berry]

utah is faster

[hollow canyon]

I really don't think Dryo should have much trouble surviving a Utah currently

What's Dryo's speed now?

[native berry]

dont know out of my head but I get out ran by raptors

[hollow canyon]

it's not

I just checked it right now

[native berry]

on wiki?

[hollow canyon]

both Dryo and Utah are the same speed

[hollow canyon]

no, in the game

[native berry]

they feel faster tho

atleast I cant out run them for to long until I have to start turning

[hollow canyon]

They're the same speed

Dryo's speed hasn't been touched in... forever

like over a year

Not sure about the stam, it wasn't touched directly but the devs did tinker with the stamina pools of all the animals in general at one point so Dryo might've(most likely) had it lowered along with all the others

[native berry]

it goes down quite fast cant run from nw rock to north center forrest

[hollow canyon]

Let me do some testing really quickly, I haven't bothered with Dryo's stamina while testing other animals so I don't recall its runtime atm

[native berry]

its longer then raptor but they always seems to catch up with me after a while

[hollow canyon]

it has 120 seconds of runtime

[native berry]

and raptor?

[hollow canyon]

less than that for sure

let me check how much exactly

[native berry]

I know I am just curious

[hollow canyon]

iirc 110 seconds from top of my head but I might be recalling wrong

either way the difference should be larger if you ask me

Dryo used to dwarf all other animals stamina-wise iirc but it seems that it got hit pretty hard during that global stamina nerf

[hollow canyon]

105 seconds*

@native berry

[native berry]

aight

[hollow canyon]

Iirc Pachy is also 105, Tenonto is something like 90 and Carno 60 or around that

The reason why you're likely getting caught by Utahs when you play a Dryo is that

the animal that gives chase is in a way by default faster... kind of

every time you make a turn it puts you at a disadvantage against the person who's chasing you

so in a case like that you technically want to move in a straight line

[native berry]

true its maby that I get caught by more then 1 and some can safe some stam and take over the chase or something but most of the time if I see a few utahs I am doomed the tracking doesnt help either

[hollow canyon]

could be

I don't want to say what the reason is, I do think that the stam gap between the two is too small to be perfectly honest

Dryo was just ok when it was slower than Utah tbh(but then again, tracking was nowhere near as oppressive at the time and Dryo had a divine levels of stamina)

atm I'd definitely buff its stam levels

[native berry]

before the tracking it wasnt a problem indeed

you could just run in a bush do some weird stuff and they had to go at a slower pase to see where you went

[hollow canyon]

but the animal itself likely won't see much people playing it just because of how the game is right now and how little it has to offer

[native berry]

it really needs the borrow and nesting

I wouldnt have played as much galli if I couldnt nest

its not fun running around doing nothing but raising babies or having a underground chill lounge makes it more fun

[hollow canyon]

I personally think that the thing that hit it the hardest was the diets

that mechanic in its current state is just really bad for small herbivores

[native berry]

I find it quite easy to get full diet for dryo

[hollow canyon]

it exponentially increases the time investment you need to make into growing one

[native berry]

all its diets spawn in center

[hollow canyon]

Yea but the thing is that you only really start growing after getting those nutrients

on an animal that you want to play quickly, with very little effort I'd say that wasting time running between the different plants kind of makes it a waste of time

[native berry]

yea I can understand that

[hollow canyon]

I wouldn't touch Dryo because I could just grow a Tenonto with a similar effort

well maybe slightly higher but for a much better return if that makes sense

[native berry]

yea thats a problem I find aswell only really fun thing right now is pvp

I think dryo suffers from that even more

[hollow canyon]

yea I don't have a problem with that, I play this game pretty much solely for the PvP aspect but it does make certain animals such as Dryo less than ideal

[native berry]

but nesting will fix that problem tbh

[hollow canyon]

idk something will have to be done about Dryo to give it more flavour so that people can play it

Idk, maybe, I don't care for nesting

Dryo just needs some additional stuff for sure because even when it was good at pvp there was just a few people playing it

[native berry]

I used to play a lot of galli on legacy and everybody that I knew that played it said the only thing that was fun was the adraline from running and raising babies

I think dryo would be fine in the future but atm it really needs some changes until then or push those changes so its playable faster

[hollow canyon]

The devs don't have any plans for it in the near future, it's not the priority they said that much so far

[native berry]

bruh

[hollow canyon]

It might get some more stuff at some point but it's hardly the priority

same goes for all the other playables that are already in the game really

although that wasn't said directly but that's what I'd expect

The part about Dryo was stated up front when someone asked about it recently

[native berry]

I mean besides some bugs or broken tactics I think the rest is quite fine really

[hollow canyon]

Arguable

I think Carno, Utah, Tenonto, Pachy are fine-ish

Pteranodon and Hypsi - idk, Hypsi probably not so much but w/e meme animal

Stego and Deino imo are a misunderstanding in their current form and need some drastic changes in the future

[native berry]

yeah true true, also pteradon has a way to long growth (only 15 minutes less then a raptor if I am correct, old info tho)

but on the other side its the most fun to grow

[hollow canyon]

It used to be 15 minutes less than Utah but idk what it is now after diets were introduced, it's one of the animals I didn't care to test

[keen plover]

Like Aken said, diets screwed over dryo population even more than 3.75 did. Hypsi being full grown automatically- meaning dryos one purpose- short grow- is worthless for those who want a small playable. Even Ptera took some of the dryo players who wanted it for a quick grow and it navigates the map easier. Only time I saw a shit ton of dryos was when they had their old damage and when it first came out.

[thin mantle]

@deft holly Utah is supposed to be bad at hunting stegos, I thought this would be self evident but I guess it needs clarifying. Few animals can effectively guard their flanks as good as stego and anky (will be able to), them utilizing strategies that force dismounts that put the utah within their attack range is simply that player using their environment intelligently, its not something many animals can capitalize on, certainly not as effectively. This will become much more prevalent when hadrosaurs and ceratopsians are in game. It's best not to punish the second most competent flank defender in the roster for using it's tools well, it's a circumstantial issue not a balance one

[deft holly]

what??? utah is literally made to hunt stego bruh whatchu on

[thin mantle]

Stego is objectively the second worst non sauropod terrestrial target utahs could go for

It is one of the few animals that prioritize defending it's flanks, that's where utahs attack from and dismount off of

It's silly to balance utah to be especially effective against the 1 animal that's specifically designed to counter their advantages, that just puts utah in a position of being FAR too competent against any future inclusion without stego's advantages, that encompasses most of the future animals

[deft holly]

stego isnt a sauropod bruh

you must be trolling right?

@keen plover you readin this bruh

[keen plover]

Why'd I get tagged lol

[thin mantle]

Yes I know, engaging with my arguments would be nice tho

[deft holly]

look im gonna say this in the nicest way possible, i dont know if you know what youre talking about my guy

[deft holly]

read it bruh

[keen plover]

What's wrong with it

Stego is anti flank?

[thin mantle]

Very much so

It's attacks specifically gaurd it's flanks

@deft holly Anyway where were we? How am I wrong exactly?

[deft holly]

utahs kit is for killing stego anc things like it

its meant to kill it

[thin mantle]

What is it meant to kill specifically

[deft holly]

large herbivores or things slower than it and not very agile

[thin mantle]

Every single one to great effect? Seems inaccurate, especially since certain large tanky herbies are optimized to combat utahs tactics, why must it decimate an entire size category and not have specific matchps in that size category where it excels in whilst also being deficient in others? That's like saying that carno should hunt literally everything smaller than it because it's a "small game hunter" despite the existence of animals like ptera and kentro, animals that are borderline anti carno or just completely inaccessible. This game doesn't utilize generalizations that way, and if it did that'd be a point of criticism, it shouldn't be used as a defense as it's an incredibly simplistic way to view balance

Stego is one of the few animals that have attacks oriented towards utah's point of entry for using it's only relevant attack against it, it is categorically one of the hardest large animals to kill because of that alone, something like trike would struggle to the point of irrelevancy with utah's current balance, it'd have almost no tools to defend itself from them aside from terrain

So balancing utah to be a reliable predator for stego's is disregarding the bigger picture, that's a gratuitous overcompensation for a poor roster decision

[keen plover]

Stego is like the best anti-pack dino

[thin mantle]

Next to anky yeah pretty much

[keen plover]

I have a new proposition. Make teno equally as fast as pachy 🥺

[mental roost]

Not to be mean but.. I think you might want to read that again..

[hasty coyote]

Utah has difficulty attacking stegs, and id say it’s in a decent spot atm. The issue is just that pounce is broken, slopes, trees, and water ruin it, and sometimes it just decides not to work.
However, utah and crocs are the only things capable of killing stegs atm.

[deft holly]

he edited that

[hasty coyote]

I thought they were?

[mental roost]

A h

[keen plover]

No

40.5km vs 41.8km

[mental roost]

I'm fucking blind

[keen plover]

Teno can't run from a pachy

[thin mantle]

I fixed a spelling error, I autocorrected none to non... that was barely an edit

[keen plover]

and those things fracture you and fuck with your ability to fight back

[hasty coyote]

Yeah, basically the same

[thin mantle]

It'd be better to fix teno's hit prio so that slam overrides ram

[hasty coyote]

That’s, kinda the point

[keen plover]

well yeah

but pachy just cancels your attack

[thin mantle]

The main issue is that tneo is incapable of defending itself unless the pachy misses them, which it can't really instigate because it's slower

[hasty coyote]

Also, teno’s can literally hit 1 stun and kill a pachy. Or just outrun them because they have more stam

[keen plover]

Pachy has more stam actually

and is faster

I see no issue with teno and pachy being the same speed. Look at utah and dryo

[hasty coyote]

I’d have to test it, if pachy can outstam then yeah something needs to be done.

[thin mantle]

Slopes trees and water don't ruin it, those are environmental factors utahs should take under consideration when even attempting a hunt, and they're tools that prey can use to combat their efforts.... pounce is very broken, but those factors don't destroy pounce's utility, it just means that pounce needs to be used carefully

[hasty coyote]

You mean the nonexistent and the buggy?

[keen plover]

Doesn't change the balance decision on it

[dusky surge]

he never said stego is a sauropod lmao what

[thin mantle]

If a pachy lands a single hit, the teno has a leg or body fracture, it's not catching that pachy. Teno can't catch a ramming pachy with any of it's attacks because of how broken their attack prio is rn, pachy cancels out every attack teno has, if the two hitboxes collide the pachy will deal the damage

[deft holly]

he edited it

[thin mantle]

I literally changed "none" to "non" because of an autocorrect spelling error, why is this so important to you :l

[keen plover]

20% stam cost on slam

[hasty coyote]

Trees I understand, but a slope shouldn’t make it impossible to pounce. Pouncing from under limits your range heavily and from above makes your dismount right on top of the steg.

[keen plover]

and the pachy cancels your attack...

[thin mantle]

That only applies to stego, stego can punish that dismount because it attacks towards the flank, most animals can't do this, it's an issue of matchups, it's not a flaw

[dusky surge]

also yea stego is absolutely one of the worst apexes for a utah to hunt

[thin mantle]

4 slams in the tank after a single hit you couldn't avoid or counter...............yaaaaay

[thin mantle]

Evrima's busted ass roster has damaged the perception of this fact far more than I'm comfortable with

[keen plover]

I'm not saying a pachy shouldn't fracture it, I'm saying the teno needs options to avoid the fight. Same speed would help with that

Also changes to priority? is it a bug idk

[thin mantle]

Or just let slam take prio over ram, which both makes logistical sense and should exist anyway

[thin mantle]

No ram is just the highest priority attack in the game rn

That's "by design"

[keen plover]

Stupid...

[hasty coyote]

Then yeah, slam should have prio, and kick should either be a trade like carno or kick should have prio. From the fights I have done, it’s very hard to 1v1 a teno and you don’t have enough stam to fill kill it.

[thin mantle]

Makes some sense, but it should be selectively applicable. Ram should take prio over kick, but not in the conventional sense, it should be a charge esq trade

[thin mantle]

Oh shit we merged brains for a sec lol

[deft holly]

utah is meant to kill stego i dont get why you dont think not

[hasty coyote]

Great minds think alike lol

[thin mantle]

As a pachy, if you land a single attack you've already won, the teno can't actually do anything to you after the initial headbutt, a body fracture cripples your ability to even use your attacks and a leg fracture borderline disables your mobility strengths, so it's only a matter of time at that point

[thin mantle]

For all the reasons I layed out and was corroborated on by many here, none of which you've actually refuted

[deft holly]

im playing a game bro i dont wanna read that much

[thin mantle]

Then don't make suggestions in the discord, this is what happens

[deft holly]

what???

[thin mantle]

You're inviting conversation

[deft holly]

no im not

[hasty coyote]

I have only done 1 true 1v1, and I was the pachy, had to do hit and runs until I eventually killed them, lived at like 5 hp because he had to claw my tail

[keen plover]

I've solo'd a decent amount of tenos. 2 pachys and you're guaranteed to kill it. Same speed please... It's not like pachy is a carnivore anyway...

[thin mantle]

I mean..... you did respond to my @ soooooo

[deft holly]

because i disagree i havent refuted things because i dont wanna argue bro 💀

[thin mantle]

mhm, after a few kills it gets REALLY easy, after learning the best disengagement window after a ram you become unhittable.... I'm not even joking

[keen plover]

Killing tenos as a pachy isn't even hard

[thin mantle]

Well again, that's kinda what this channel is for
Actually that's 90% of the discussion on the discord

Just saying this should be expected that's all

[deft holly]

when i finish my game ill refute everything just let me finish

[hasty coyote]

Yeah I would need to learn the matchup more, 90% of what I do is fight carnos lol

[thin mantle]

No pressure, I'd respond to it tomorrow anyway, but I'd love some counterarguments if you've got any to share :D

[keen plover]

Nobody as pachys fights tenos because it's hard. They do it because it's easy. Heck I do it as well.

[thin mantle]

Yeah, aka pachy's worst matchup lol

[thin mantle]

I only don't do it anymore because I felt bad about effortlessly erasing people's progress, but that's just me, no shame in taking advantage of it

typically in games, I like it when I have to try

[hasty coyote]

Yep, helps tone my skills lol.

[thin mantle]

Always a good thing 👍

[keen plover]

I wouldn't mind pachys as much if the rivers were actually something you could use. I'd love to just swim to avoid them lol

I mean, at least you can jump across

[thin mantle]

Mhm, unfortunately.....the water 1 shots

[hasty coyote]

That’s also why I generally want them to do mechanical changes rather than just buff stats, pachy’s stats are good (except stun ranges, those are hilarious) maybe slight running stam increase at the cost of increased ram cost.

[thin mantle]

That's what I'd do, on top of completely deleting it's turn nerf when trotting during a charge

as well as charges being able to be held indefinitely

with a tradeoff being a minor stam drain, and I do mean minor

[hasty coyote]

I personally stay away from swimming as a pachy, I like the blood on my skull, I’d rather die with glory than run like a coward.

[thin mantle]

If only they were all like you....

Maybe us teno's could...yknow....survive

[hasty coyote]

Personally I think the turn nerf is enough of con, maybe just stop stam regen.

[keen plover]

There's been a lot of pachy mobs on lately lol. They don't play fair, just attack whatever moves- which is fine. However balance sucks when you're playing solo teno and there isn't a good reason why it shouldn't be the same speed as a pachy

[thin mantle]

That's fine, but like I said, the turn nerf shouldn't apply when trotting or below

[thin mantle]

Mhm, I'm not too married to the idea of teno being 1 k faster, but I'd wanna see it tested live

[hasty coyote]

Yeah, if they just allow pachy to play more defensive, it will be much better while not being oppressive

[thin mantle]

Just to see if we notice any changes

[keen plover]

It was 45km before

[hasty coyote]

Man, I wish I could find those, last life I had I got canni by 2 pachies

[keen plover]

The mobs don't let you group up. They literally kill whatever

I love saying mob

[hasty coyote]

And it makes people think pachy is op, because they don’t know how to pick a fight, or just got swarmed and don’t understand every other animal can do the same

[thin mantle]

That was my main concern with pachy being added in the first place, that it'd be far too much of a traveling battering ram that finds things and breaks their shins at it's whim, which for any primarily fracturing dino, shouldn't be the case. Fracture's are an incredibly powerful and fate defining status effect that dramatically shifts the balance of any engagement it exists in, fracture proficiency shouldn't be given out so flippantly, especially to dinos that are relatively fast, which pachy is. Hopefully pachy undergoes some changes to both render it functional under that standard and more viable than before, at least that's my hope, and I think the changes we've presented here would go a long way in doing that. But that's enough optimism, time for bed

[hasty coyote]

Yep, same. Gn

[keen plover]

night mate

[thin mantle]

👋

[mild fractal]

havent played in a while. is utah still shit

[deft holly]

@waxen lance

[hollow canyon]

@analog mirage

It's not faster than utah's

each bite in the game aside from Deinosuchus has the same speed

matter of fact this is the case for most attacks in general

[analog mirage]

They definitely do not

They might seem similar but Carno is able to bite faster

[hollow canyon]

Not true

They might SEEM different

but I literally counted how many times you can attack in the same timespan

almost every attack got the same result

unless by "bite faster" you mean that the foreswing of the attack aka the anticipation phase is shorter in Carno, that could be true, I haven't tested that

[analog mirage]

What I mean is the dps being faster

[hollow canyon]

Dps can't be "faster", it can only be "higher" or "lower".

DPS stands for "damage per second" and yea Carno will have a higher dps just by the virtue of having a much higher attack value

What you seem to be trying to say is that it has a higher attack rate which isn't true as I stated above, both animals bite at the same rate even if it may not seem that way

[dusky surge]

why do we keep suggesting nerfs to carnos turning

[craggy trench]

why not

Tell me im curious of your take on it

[hollow canyon]

because people are pepegas at the game and can't outmaneuver Carno even with its current turn rate.

Carno does have issues but turning isn't one of them

[dusky surge]

i still think carno just needs nerfs to three things. Tracking, bleeding and juvi

[craggy trench]

I recommend the nerf not because outmaneuvering is hard, its to make its alt bite put to good use and make it more skill based,

[sonic flame]

Imo all the other juvis should be buffed to carnos level

Buffs are always better than nerfs when possible

[hollow canyon]

^, especially when it comes to juvies

[sonic flame]

And for the juvis, they could desperately use the help

[hollow canyon]

Yea I'd nerf tracking, bleeding and fix the xenomorph jaws

juvie Carno should stay the way it is and the other juvies should be brought up to that level... in some way

[sonic flame]

Faster run animations is a good start imo

Did some side by sides, theoretically you could get most of the juvi animals moving at a similar speed to hypsi

[craggy trench]

Imo carno is still a little op in close range fights. It shouldn't be. It should try its first shot on creeping up and charging. If it fails or misses it can catch up to its prey using its high speed and try to land bites OR if its not a prey but competition or another carni like utah, it can use alt-bites close range to wound the other which is running around you trying to outmaneuver

Tbf, idk about whats the true intention of the devs, I just try to triangulate their true intention by paying attention to what the carno's skills are.

and nobody uses alt bites. there must be something wrong with that am I right?

Imo it should be like a motorcycle with a jammed steering wheel which has an omni-directional lance lol

[hasty coyote]

Tell that to pachy’s ram, but honestly I just want them to change ram turning and not carno’s

[fresh laurel]

wdym?

[analog mirage]

I think peoples main issue with Carno rn is it’s too good at close range combat which it shouldn’t be

[frail bobcat]

I think the carno should feel like a cheetah. Very fast ambush, runs very fast for short amounts of time and needs some time to regen stamina after it fails an ambush. And if the carno is tired then its weak.

[fresh laurel]

I always liked the idea of cheetah Carno ngl

[craggy trench]

Yeah, right? Thats what alt attack of carno is for imo.

if the carno can spam click fast maneuvering smaller dinosaurs, it is unbalanced.

[analog mirage]

Should be a better pursuit and ambush hunter

[sonic flame]

Allow all the juvi animals to have very fast movement for their size

[fresh laurel]

like faster than their adults?

[sonic flame]

Relative to their size yes

[fresh laurel]

would be helpful so that juvie utah doesnt just die to its adult

[keen plover]

Sub playables should be faster as well. Sub teno should be speedy

Make it old teno speed lol

[hasty coyote]

That’s one of the issues with growing, there’s a long stage of “too slow to run, too weak to fight”

Pachy has the best juvie imo, but that’s because ram’s stun limits are way too high. I have seen a 30-50% pachy knock down a utah and break it’s leg

[fresh laurel]

Did you see the Pesky video where a tiny Pachy broke Carno leg?

[keen plover]

You can break another pachys leg at 70kg iirc

at like 100-200kg, you can solo a full grown pachy if you ambush them

[fresh laurel]

https://youtu.be/-ES3H9FeUSo?t=398

at this time...

[hasty coyote]

Yeah, that one was odd

[fresh laurel]

they should readjust how big you have to be in order to stun or break something legs

[hasty coyote]

An adult pachy can stun anything up to 3 tons and knock down up to 1.5 tons

[fresh laurel]

bruh

and its only 500kg?!

[hasty coyote]

450

[fresh laurel]

utah is 450

[hasty coyote]

Or was utah 450?

[fresh laurel]

pachy is 500kg lol

[hasty coyote]

Yep, got them mixed up lol

[fresh laurel]

XD happens to the best of us

a 500kg Utah... imagine

[fresh laurel]

anyways that would be like seeing Utah pin a 3 ton dinosaur

[hasty coyote]

Plus, that stun test wasn’t even the limit (if I remember correctly). The guy I got this from was bashing a stego in the face, it could get a light skull break on the first hit up to 4.5 tons.
However don’t fully quote me on this one, I’d recommend testing to see if this is true lol

[keen plover]

Pachy should be hard capped to 1800kg

[hasty coyote]

I’d say make knock down at like 1ton-750kg and stun limit at about 2 tons

Maybe move the upper limit on stun depending on if it needs to defend against something large for whatever reason.

Also, cera is about 1.2 tons, so pachy could currently knock down a cera

[keen plover]

Balanced

[keen plover]

2T seems too high for what it is but eh

Just keep it at 1800kg, it has no business fighting anything larger

[fresh laurel]

Ah yes the bully carnivore getting bullied by pachy

[hollow canyon]

Pachy knocking down things larger than itself is about as sensible as Utah pinning things larger than itself.

[frail bobcat]

No actually not, because when a twentyfive kilogramm stone ramms against my knee, imma fall down

[keen plover]

Exactly. Makes no sense. Utah should pin pachy by that logic, but nope LOL

[hollow canyon]

if a big cat, pretty much your own weight was to jump you, you would also fall down and likely be unable to get up with it on top of you

[keen plover]

Yeah, pachy would topple over

Pachy already has fractures and stuns, it shouldn't need to knock down something larger than it

[frail bobcat]

True, utah should be able to pounce pachy. Didnt see it from that perspective

[keen plover]

Also reduced damage on its head which it attacks with

It has the overwhelming advantage in its weight class. It shouldn't also knock them down

[keen plover]

Things larger that is*

Dilos matchup with pachy is already one sided, but knockdowns cements that

An assumption, dilo could be busted^

Anyways, another point. Why is dryos stam so bad for what it is?

[calm ibex]

if all herbs shared diets you'd get even more mixing rather than competition since they'd all be in same place,

Having no diets and friends is stronger than diets and solo

[random prairie]

You make a good point. Carnos and deinos are both cannibal, yet for some reason it's "toxic" to go after your species. (Carno mega packs still exist even with carno being cannibal) Same could be same said with herbivores rn. If pachy kills a teno, for some reason people will call that pachy a "canni" or a mean "koser". I guess this could be more people's mentality more then anything else.

[azure crescent]

yes, your own weight, if a caracal jumped at you you could get back up

[hollow canyon]

Utah ain't "a caracal"

[azure crescent]

i’m aware, i’m just saying that if you’re significantly larger than something it isn’t pinning you down

[hollow canyon]

Yea but that's irrelevant to my point

Pachy isn't much larger than Utah

[azure crescent]

that is true

[hollow canyon]

if we're going full on realism Utah would likely pin a Pachy and Pachy would very likely cause things larger than itself to drop on the ground

I don't think either of the two should be a thing though

[azure crescent]

also true, i feel like something like pachy would be the largest pinnable thing a utah could attack

but even then, going with realism, a pachy would struggle a lot

[slim dragon]

It's actually a weird case where Utah can't pin things larger than itself because of balance but pachy can knock down things larger than itself because of realism. The problem is the inconsistency between the two. On the other hand, I can see utah pinning things larger than itself extremely OP, while pachy not being able to knock things larger than itself might become a massive disadvantage

Unless pinning damage is drastically reduced so anything 450 kg or higher isn't one-shot by a full pin

[frail bobcat]

Or pin would become "buckable" to a certain point

Would be also cool to defend from canni utahs if you could buck them off and then kill them

[slim dragon]

I don't think it should. That would require making two pinned animations for every dino, one where it actually struggles and one where it does nothing. And since there is no point in not bucking when you're pinned... just tweak the stamina cost of pinning so it feels like the pinned animal is struggling.

[slim dragon]

If a full pounce isn't enough to one-shot a Utah, then this become possible without further mechanic

[frail bobcat]

But a utah being able to defend a pounce would be also cool

[slim dragon]

I guess pouncing another utah could do some damage back to the attacker

[frail bobcat]

Because the other utah can just go stab with its own talon

[slim dragon]

Yes, but doing so is much less efficient if you can't put your weight into it

[frail bobcat]

But at least that a pounce isnt a free kill for the attacker

[slim dragon]

So pouncing another utah would serve as a finisher when you already have the advantage, or a surprise initiator to give you said advantage (but leave you out of stam) but would not be a free kill

And pouncing a full-health utah when you're low on health yourself would simply be suicide

And taking damage while pouncing could also be implemented with other playables as a mechanic, like we see bary clawing a pouncing utah in its concept art, maybe bary's bucking could not be as efficient stam-wise to dismount the attacke,r but deal damage instead

[frail bobcat]

I hope that bary will be restricted to its territory so it cant prey on utah and utah cant prey on bary

[slim dragon]

Well if bary is slower than utah (very likely) then it probably won't prey on it
And if it can deal damage back to a pouncing utah, then utah probably won't hunt it either

Although I see nothing wrong with bary hunting utah

[dusky surge]

i just dont want another thing added that shitstomps utah lmao

[slim dragon]

Bary is a perfect animal for shitstomping utah tho

[dusky surge]

how

[slim dragon]

Bigger, able to defend its flanks, lives in an environment that disadvantages utah, seems both fast and agile enough to deal with one or several of them

[dusky surge]

idk i just dislike how every damn animal added needs to be a utah counter

even the herbivore apex they added was the one best designed for killing utahs

besides anky ofc

[slim dragon]

Not all of them, but bary definitely would work well as a utah counter
Much more efficient than cerato or carno, for example

[dusky surge]

carno's pretty efficient at it ngl

[slim dragon]

It's too much for what it should be

A utah shouldn't be trying to go toe-to-toe with a carno imo, but carno shouldn't be hunting utah that much either

[dusky surge]

why not?

[slim dragon]

Because Utah is specifically suited for dealing with bigger, but less agile animals
They both kinda counter each other

[dusky surge]

except carno's agility isn't a problem when it can literally just run

carno is very well designed for killing/scaring off utahs

especially with a well done ambush

[fresh laurel]

wasnt utah weight 500kg before?

[slim dragon]

That's what I say, they both counter each other
Ofc a carno should be perfectly able to kill utah with an ambush

But imagine them both trying to face off each other out in the open, there should be no winner

[frail bobcat]

bary and utah should only meet when utah has to drink, there should be no more interaction to be honest. Some animals can just exist together and rarely interact with eachother

[slim dragon]

yep
Although I don't think bary should be locked to water
It seems capable enough as a terrestrial hunter
not saying it should hunt utah, but Utah should just move along whenever it sees a bary, wether it is near water or not.

[alpine plover]

Bary seems fairly nimble

And the terrain advantage for it's environment does give it a strong edge

I would say Bary would be a soft counter

Landing a half pounce or so could decimate it

Similar place as Teno, except without Teno's crazy damage output

Teno in my eyes isn't even a "Utah Counter"
Just Pounce in general is the counter to Utah which is why the matchups feel that way

[hasty coyote]

Just read the previous conversation about utah pin/pachy knockdown. And I can tell you right now, if utah can pin a pachy, then the fight is much more utah sided. Pachy takes longer to grow and can not run from a utah, so it does and should have the advantage in a 1v1. The fight atm is in a decent spot, it’s pachy sided in the 1v1 but a good utah can take out most pachies. Then 2v1 is utah sided, and a 3v1 is generally a death sentence for pachy.

A full pounce can basically 1-shot a pachy, even a bucked pounce does like 1/3 of your bleed, which is basically a death sentence if the utah can still fight. Also, if I remember correctly, utah pounce stops abilities, so pachy is basically pinned but can move and buck.

While pachy can not 1-shot utah, the most it can do is get a lucky leg break and run it down from there. But if pachy runs it down, then it’s open to attack and making its bleed even worse. Any other bone break or spam alt attacks just generally end the fight there, utah has to run away and pachy can’t catch it.

However, I do agree that pachy’s knock down ranges are absolutely massive currently, and should be nerfed. Then they can alter them as more Dino’s are added.

[alpine plover]

I did suggest two forms of knockdown

One being like the current knockdown, but you can trade off stam to get up quicker. This being the default knockdown

[frail bobcat]

Utah and bary should just not have a good reason to attack each other other than food

[alpine plover]

Then concuss knockdown
This is achieved through headshots. You're vision is blurred, and you're knocked on without the ability to sprawl up quickly. Essentially the current iteration of knockdown.

[frail bobcat]

A utah pounce should at least slow the pachy down while it hangs onto it

[hasty coyote]

maybe, but id say let them fix pounce and ram before changing the fight much. its just a battle of the bugs currently lol

[frail bobcat]

Yeah

[half girder]

thought about pounce slowing something but that’d be pretty op

makes way for a utah to easily get another pounce, bite the tail of the pachy or even the body

logically very realistic but realism usually kills balance

[fresh laurel]

but bucking and tree sliding would kinda balance it

plus most of the time you wouldnt be alone so...

not saying you have to group to live

[half girder]

i mean with pachy you do..

[fresh laurel]

current pachy

if they balance its ram turning and fix the hitbox

[half girder]

makes the creature almost feel.. none enjoyable, rn its just awful

[fresh laurel]

imo they should of made ram make pachy move slightly slower or something but nope

can counter ram just by moving a bit to the left or right rn lmao

[half girder]

game is just everywhere rn..

especially utah, tping around the map lmaooo

[fresh laurel]

wdym

[half girder]

pounce bug

[fresh laurel]

lol

ngl

I wonder how Utah is going to fair against other things its size

[hasty coyote]

yeah both pachy and utah are suffering from bugs, and the changes are hurting pachy a lot (tracking, diet, and nerfs). personally i want only 3 changed for pachy ram: 1. you're able to cancel it with lmb instead of looking at the ground, 2. you can hold the charge infinitely but cant regen stam while charging a ram, and 3. make it so you turn normal while holding a charge and not sprinting. this should buff pachy's defensive capabilities, but not just be a stat buff or an offensive buff. plus it has the added benefit of pachies "stancing up" for a fight, which just looks cool.

[fresh laurel]

now what if... We give Utah a way to see how much blood a victim has left

Think it would benefit newer players more since veterans might just know from testing

[hasty coyote]

personally i want them to change the bleed/tracking mechanic like that. 99% bleed shouldnt have you be spilling your blood out like an overturned cup

the lower percentage you have, the faster you drip

[fresh laurel]

fax but to elaborate on what I had in mind. The lower your blood bar is the darker the blood trail would be for bleeders tracking it

[fresh laurel]

heh that works too

[hasty coyote]

that could also work

[fresh laurel]

smort people think alike

[hasty coyote]

both are viable options, we just have to see what the devs decide to do next update.

[fresh laurel]

If they do it next update (Update 5)

[hollow canyon]

Just going to point out that Pachy is technically supposed to have the same growth time as Utah

it effectively grows longer because diets are a thing but their base growth times were set up to be the same iirc when update 4 came out

[fresh laurel]

man I hope update 5 adjust diets to be much more enjoyable

ain no way you expect Utah to hunt a very tiny portion of the roster once we get like over 50 playables

sure ai but like I think devs would expect player interactions as your main interactable

[half girder]

#balance-feedback message

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-infinity-war-avengers-gif-20036370

[half girder]

destroy them

[keen plover]

Depends on their speed and agility. If they can keep moving and constantly hit a utah, then it probs has no chance

Although if it's smaller, I see utah killing it. Anything larger and they have the advantage

[fleet sigil]

I think every nutrient should have a AI in its group for carnivores because having to rely on someone playing said Dino kinda sucks

[keen plover]

I think they should spread some of the playables around. Utah for example has boar, teno and pachy on the same diets. Why not add boar to the third diet or teno/pachy?

[azure crescent]

how in the hell are people saying pachy is op 💀

[dusky surge]

lol true

[azure crescent]

@analog mirage ram only manages to kill a carno if either the carno is actual dogshit or if the pachy is in a group

otherwise i find it difficult to actually kill a carno

a solo pachy would run out of stam before killing a carno with ram

[analog mirage]

It’s very easy to die to a group of pachys as a Carno. If you got for one you are bond to be hit by at least one. Then it’s basically over

[slim dragon]

Well I don't think a herd of pachys should run from a single carno either

[hasty coyote]

personally, if you run into a horde of pachies as a carno, thats kinda your fault. the horde is much slower and cant catch up, so you should just avoid them.

if all of those pachies were instead carno, you wouldnt be able to run from them and would just die. If they were utahs, many people wouldnt have a problem if they killed things larger than them that cant run. So i dont think dying to a group of pachies is too much of a bad thing because they cant run from anything and are forced to fight, if someone decides to run into a horde of pachies its their decision. However, teno is the only one who suffers from pachy hordes because its slightly slower and pachy ram has prio over all of teno's attacks.

[dusky surge]

if you dont waste all your stam, you can easily escape, as pachies cant track and cant catch up to you with their speed. Simply disengage in a forest or something and you good

[hasty coyote]

@deft holly ram leaves a decent opening and costs a good chunk of stam, and any longer time would allow carnos to get potentially 2 bites in. So i would like to hear your 2 cents on why pachy should be punished harder for using its main ability?

[thin mantle]

EO where are my debunks

[deft holly]

Look at something like Utah, Utah whenever it misses a pounce has the longest piece of delay and has to sit through and extremely long animation meaning it will most likely die in a fight, also ram tends to carry momentum when used meaning it Carrie’s some of the momentum with a ram while it’s recovering from its delay after a missed ram meaning it can run off faster.

[deft holly]

Honestly I just couldn’t be bothered you put up good points but I just can’t be bothered

[thin mantle]

That’s fair 👍

[deft holly]

Also on that notion, no it’s not really a long opening it’s a very short one, only for a carno Iike said on its ass, otherwise it’s just going to be a tail bite at best

[hasty coyote]

the difference is that utah is also much more agile and fast, pachy has almost no choice in what it fights because its slower. but honestly the missed utah pounce is a bit too long personally anyway. If we nerf pachy's ram delay, it mostly impacts the carno matchup because most pachies dont really ram while fighting utahs, alt attacks are much more efficient. also 2 tail bites from a carnos is still about half your health as a pachy, so that would mean you go from missing 4 times is death, to missing 2 times is death, which would make pachy extremely weak.

[frail bobcat]

utah pounce recover needs to be faster

[hasty coyote]

i agree, but i also am not the best on utah's balance, i basically only play pachy.

[frail bobcat]

im kinda new but i main utah to be good as one dinosaur and everytime i miss a pounce i shit my pants for the time i recover

because its a fricking 80 year old when it gets up

[deft holly]

I have to disagree on the tail bite part, that doesn’t make sense carno bite force is 175 pachy has 500 hp meaning 4 bites would count as body hits so that’s not right. Also pachy when it missed a ram just gets to spin around and then hit a carno again, a singular pachy can also roll a single carno not kill it but make it impossible to kill the pachy and a 2v1 as pachy is still very much in the realm of possibilities I’ve done it a lot. Pachy does not really have a down time on when it can be attacked a small tweak would be great to it. But yeah that tail bite thing does not make sense my guy

[hasty coyote]

i panic whenever i miss a ram, and utah has 2x the recovery time, so i can imagine how scary it is lol.

[frail bobcat]

yes

the utah is even more fragile

so 3 times as scary

[hasty coyote]

ok then, it would go down to 3 misses instead of 2, ill give you that, but its still very punishing. Also, pachies can't just "spin around and hit a carno again" it needs to shake the carno off its tail and then hope it made enough distance for the ram to hit. the turn nerfs made pachy much worse at getting a carno off its tail, then we also have to deal with the fact that WASD counters ram, all the carno needs to do is tap d and it will teleport 3 feet to the left and make the pachy miss the ram. So a pachy can roll a carno, but that carno would need to be bad and the pachy would need to be good, and again for 2 pachies, a mediocre carno can easily kill 2 mediocre pachies.

[golden coral]

The tail issue could be due to carnos extendable jaws and thus passing by the tip/tail.

[hasty coyote]

yeah i basically only tank body shots from carnos, even though im out their range on my side

[frail bobcat]

yes his bite extends a bit

if they fix it carno will be much weaker in close combat

[hasty coyote]

and if they fix pachy ram it should be a lot better too, id say half to 1/3 of my rams just dont do anything

[deft holly]

Pachies very much can, by the time the carno sees the missed ram it begins drifting to get a bites, the pachy has already gained distance and is ready to face the carno full on, also with that WASD tap D and go to the left thing is not true if you’re missing a ram in that situation it’s your fault for being careless either way you will still get Merked. Also remember if a carno is drifting that’s the easier bone break of your life. Seriously you overestimate how fast carno can turn either way predicting where a carno would go to is good aswell. But seriously you miss a ram and keep going that’s how it is currently. If someone is dying in these situations they are taking terrible rams or missing terribly

How much ping do you have btw rapdex you seem to have said point to high ping

Also I’m going to bed I need to

But I’ll leave you with that

[hasty coyote]

im not sure what ping i have honestly, but its not too high. it normally happens when the server decides to lag or the target is fast and small like utah. i hit most my rams on carno, maybe like 1/10 to 1/5 dont hit and its mostly when i hit them perpendicular, but like half my rams do nothing on utahs, but it acts like i hit them on my side (i lose stam, see the animation, they fall over, but then they slide across the ground and get up like nothing happened)

plus, idk what type of carnos you're fighting, i cant tell if you're just godly at pachy or fighting the dumb carnos (which i agree are easy to bully), but i normally fight carnos who have managed to find their 3rd braincell and can actually fight. And i can make them drift, but by the time i spin around i norm have barely enough time to ram and then most the time they change directions abruptly after i already let go of my ram.

[alpine plover]

@mint rain why shouldn’t carno swim faster than pachy?

[fresh laurel]

probably because it would make escape harder for pachy

[alpine plover]

well carno should swim faster than pachy. it just makes sense.

[fresh laurel]

it really doesnt? I mean do you see them arms?

[alpine plover]

they use their legs and tail

[fresh laurel]

Plus we dont exactly do realism in the isle

balance over realism

[alpine plover]

cringe

i hate that aspect

[fresh laurel]

I mean realistically Carno wouldnt be charging at things

[alpine plover]

yeah ik

[fresh laurel]

Utah would be slower but heavier

[alpine plover]

carno needs a diff moveset

charge is dum

[fresh laurel]

eh

I like it relying on charge

Its a plain hunter and charge is an attack that suits it

[alpine plover]

imo take away charge and some of its speed and make it a brawler that uses its club head for huge damage.

make the head slow and heavy but a decimating strike

[fresh laurel]

sir you want to make the fastest mid tier carnivore a brawler?

you know... the one that hunts smalls

[alpine plover]

did you not see what i said abt speed?

well according to you the isle doesnt do realism anyway

[fresh laurel]

you said slow

[alpine plover]

i literally said take away some of carno’s speed

[fresh laurel]

What you are suggesting would change Carno niche hard and balancing

[alpine plover]

okay so?

[fresh laurel]

so theres no reason to make Carno a brawler when you got other mid tiers that could do it better

[alpine plover]

like what?

cerato?

[fresh laurel]

Possibly

[alpine plover]

ehh

idk

[fresh laurel]

I just dont think brawler fits Carno

[spare badger]

If carno was a brawler it would be broken cause it would be fast and strong

Other animals in its tier are supposed to be able to outbrawl it since they can't run away

[hasty coyote]

personally, i think carno is ok balance wise, almost everything else is just broken or weak. id rather them buff/fix other dinos, then seeing if carno needs nerfs still. I dont want balance to constantly be a swing between what is broken and what is strong. Update 4.5 already just swung balance the opposite way too hard.
However, the mechanics make it WAY too strong, scent makes escaping them impossible, carnivore diets make it too easy to grow them compared to their prey, and theres enough food to keep them all fed in megapacks. Honestly, theres just too much food in general, anything can megapack and be fine.

[hollow canyon]

The only nerfs Carno needs are a nerf to its bleed and fix to that goddamn hitbox. The rest of the animal is exactly where it should be, it's a major threat to small animals as intended, especially in the plains where it can run them down. All those other animals in question though could use some changes to potentially fix their interactions between one another and with Carno.

Tenonto's attacks should be given priority over the attacks of most other animals. It could also use a lower stamina cost on both its back-attacks(yes, that includes the kick, which costs quite a bit more stamina than it should imo).

Utah needs to have its pounce fixed but I really wouldn't be opposed to buffing its bite slightly.

Pachy - I would probably change a couple of things about how it works.

Increase the blunt damage on its ram attack, decrease the stamina cost and the actual damage it deals(I'm not sure if blunt damage=attack damage but if that's the case it should change). I'd also change the way its CC works so as not to stagger Carnos, instead I'd suggest to "disarm them" for perhaps even a longer time than they currently get staggered for.

This would result in Carno being unable to punish Pachy after the little guy runs into it while also not being just repeatedly CCed over and over. We could then also do away with the CC-resistance to Pachy's ram attack while doing that.

This is just what I'm currently thinking about these three. Pachy would probably receive the most radical changes with what I'm proposing here but to be perfectly honest - I really think it needs that, I think its current design is rather problematic(and will in effect always make this animal either really bad or way too good).

It would also be really nice if the locational damage worked in a more reliable way but I don't see that getting fixed anytime soon.

[mental roost]

^ honesty kind of agree with these changes,.. though maybe doing something with the Ram hit box on Pachy wouldn’t hurt( supposedly it’s a little wonky). Being stun locked to death, repeatedly isn’t exactly a good design philosophy.

[hollow canyon]

Yea but it's also necessary so that Pachy doesn't get turned into minced meat after landing its attack. What I'm proposing there could perhaps give us some form of a middle ground where neither party gets screwed over too much.

As for that ram hitbox - I've mentioned that in the last paragraph but... I really don't think it will be that easy of a fix.

[mental roost]

It’d also be nice to have fracture severity levels…If carno plays dumb, it should be punished by becoming increasingly crippled. But ultimately having the choice to disengage before things get that bad( player choice of:” is this really worth it?”

No idea if we’re still getting those though, or when.

[hollow canyon]

I agree, idk what's up with the fracture severity levels - those were meant to be a thing but at this point Idk if we're getting them at some point in the future or if fractures are now considered done

[stark knoll]

Severities are still planned

[hollow canyon]

Is it confirmed by the devs?

[stark knoll]

Yup

[hollow canyon]

I mean you're a QA member so I guess if you're saying that they must've said so at some point themselves.

I probably just missed it

[stark knoll]

Punchpacket was asked recently

[hollow canyon]

oh, I see, fair enough, yea I missed that

[mental roost]

Good to hear that.

[hasty coyote]

those are some good changes, but personally i just want 3 things to make pachy more defense and stand-your-ground oriented rather than "i get the first hit or i likely die"
1: make the turn nerf only go into effect when sprinting and charging a ram, so holding a charge and walking doesnt nerf your turn.
2: make ram canceled with left click instead of looking down.
3: allow ram to be held infinitely, but you cant regen stam while holding and holding for a long time reduces the damage slightly (like 60-75% of a well timed charged ram).

[hollow canyon]

I'm not opposed to any of those changes in fact I thought about some of them too but I wasn't sure how they'd work if combined with what I proposed above so I'd first try doing what I describe up there and then introduce the things you've mentioned now

Well I'm not entirely sure how I feel about 3 I'd have to give it some thought

2. is definitely a good idea

[hasty coyote]

yeah if they keep pachy offense-only, its much less forgiving and finding a middle-ground is difficult. Thats why i want them to allow pachies to play defensively with ram, so pachy has more options rather than "im gonna run at you, you either dodge or the fight is over"

[hollow canyon]

just a QoL change

[hasty coyote]

canceling it with left click is just something that should be present, unless ram canceling is a bug in the first place. Also, if you juggle it right, you can basically have an infinite ram currently, its just difficult to do consistently.

main thing with infinite charge is that it should be just to allow pachies to have the ability to use ram defensively, and not a great option offensively. Maybe even change it so that sprinting too long auto-cancels the ram too.

[alpine plover]

Tbh Pachy is too offensive orientated in it's design for it's own good

It's become a much better carnivore pack hunter than Utah is currently in the ecosystem

The staggers or stuns do support it in combos, multiple hits for herd members in offensive capability.

While fun, it can be frustrating to essentially at times be doomed. Pachy's ability needs to be orientated for better defensive purposes.

[hasty coyote]

personally, thats what i hope for too, but pachy will always be dangerous in groups, leg breaks are very powerful. If leg break isnt strong enough, solo pachies have no chance to escape. If they're too strong, a leg break in a pack is a death sentence.

maybe make a loud sound que for pachy's ram so they cant easily ambush in groups. However, they also have no option other than to fight because they are very slow compared to other things their size

[alpine plover]

Hmm

[hasty coyote]

so groups of pachies will and need to be threatening

[alpine plover]

How about holding a ram while sprinting burns more stam

They always did look a bit ridiculous doing it
But using it in more "offensive" fashions would quickly become a concern for stamina.

[hasty coyote]

they'd have to buff its defence use to do that, otherwise its terrible overall. like my changes with that could work, but without changes like mine it just kills pachies

[alpine plover]

Of course there'd be compensations for doing so

Like mentioned above

[hasty coyote]

plus, stamina is not an issue, solo pachies dont have enough stam to kill a carno. 2 can if they dont miss a lot.

[alpine plover]

Offensive - you can still do it, but for significantly less effectiveness
Defensive - there's more help and some added buffs for using Pachy in this way.

I don't think Solo Pachies should really kill mid tiers or even around psuedo mids either

To thrawt off or getaway unscathed from encounters

Though I do think heavy fractures should leave longer lasting affects that can develop to be more dangerous overtime
So a Pachy could technically "kill" a Carno for wounding it with fractures. Essentially an "Assist kill"

[hasty coyote]

depends, solo pachies dont, but groups should. otherwise most people wont go pachy, why not just go something like teno and actually be able to kill? Also, if they struggle to kill a few carnos in a group, a group of carnos will wipe pachies. Then we run into my main issue with grouping with balancing around grouping, why not just go something else thats stronger in groups?

[alpine plover]

You can still have the best of both worlds by making Pachy more "escape-like" while still being highly dangerous to it's predators

[hasty coyote]

solo pachies shouldnt kill one, break and run. 2 can kill one if theres a skill issue, and 3 will kill one

[alpine plover]

I believe instead of outright killing it's predators, they should be dealt with from fracture severities doing the killing instead.

Or aiding in it's demise

[hasty coyote]

my issue is that if they cant fully kill 1-2 in a group, they run into other major issues. If a group cant kill 1-2, how is a solo supposed to escape from 1? If a group cant kill 1-2, what happens with the predators also pack up?

plus you have to face the fact that people want to kill each other, not just wound. A wounded predator can come back later. If the fracture are so severe that it basically cripples the predator for a long time, then randomly getting hit and being fractured will anger many, many people.

people already get mad with the leg break that lasts like 2-5 mins and they can literally walk it off, imagine having a leg fracture for like 10-30 mins

[alpine plover]

The issue is with how fractures work, they're much too short term, and should be thought of differently as a status effect.
A group could kill 1-2 in a group as pachies. But it's much more inclined to inflict them with fractures which inhibit the performance and possibly worsen overtime. Of course there'd be avenues to deal with this mechanically.

[hasty coyote]

in a 1v1 or an even matchup, a break and run strat should be the better choice. However, it should not be the only choice.

[alpine plover]

I don't think I can see a world where Pachy won't kill a Utah in a few hits with a charged heabutt

[hasty coyote]

personally i think fracture severities should help a lot for pachy. also making fractures get worse the more you use them, so no more walking off a leg break
light leg break? ok guess i should back off before it gets worse.

[alpine plover]

The alt headswing is fairly effective at swarming them off too

[alpine plover]

Essentially what I was suggesting

There'd be light-medium-heavy fractures.

[hasty coyote]

i do agree that bone breaks should be a major deterrent in a fight and pachy should prefer to break and run in some scenarios, but being forced to break and run is going to cripple pachies instead.

[alpine plover]

A solo Pachy can inflict potentially heavy fractures by continuously breaking up a Carno's body when a Carno refuses to disengage. Essentially dooming it to low chances of survival, cannot catch food, starvation, or vulnerability to even a simple lone Utah. Locked health at 10-20%.

A much more longstanding status affect compared to the normal or lighter fractures afflicted.

[hasty coyote]

carno v pachy 1v1: break and run
carno v pachy 1v2: break and run, maybe kill if theres a skill issue
carno v pachy 1v3+: carno should likely not engage unless it can pick one off easily, leg break is death

against utahs, should be fairly even but pachy sided. Based on who hits first

[alpine plover]

This serves to not fuck over people who just got bush ambushed from a Pachy that headbutted it = light fractures
While actually fucking over players who refuse to disengage pursuing a Pachy. = heavy fractures

[hasty coyote]

eeehhhh, people will HATE that, i can tell you now. It would likely mean pachy needs to be balance where it cant kill anything without a skill issue, so most people would just run them down anyway. Then carni players will hate that a single fight they had 30 mins ago got them killed and cry for pachy nerfs, they already cry that pachy groups are too oppressive, imagine dealing with the after effects long after you disengaged.
Essentially, i dont think making bone breraks a long-term impact would be a good thing for either party. They should generally be short-term or last only a little while after the fight.

i think the impact should be great, not the duration

[alpine plover]

I think the trend of short burst herbi brawlers isn't healthy either for the ecosystem
Given the soon incoming abundance of them.
Increasingly engaging with Pachies repeatedly should result in those long term consequences. And Pachies, or even groups of them surely have more then enough opportunity to disengage an already retreating foe. They simply move in to kill it for entertainment, when the desired affect has already been achieved

Teno's abilities are very defense orientated. Which circumvents players from treating it the same way as Pachy is currently treated.

[hasty coyote]

the issue is that most the predators are also short-burst. Carno 4-shots pachy and kills it with ram, utah can deal like 30% of pachy's bleed in a single pounce(with buck) and losing 50% is death, and deino is deino.
If you force the glass cannon small to be in an extended fight to win against things that can kill it easily while being unable to run from said fights, its not going to end well and would require a complete rebalance of the dino.

most the smalls are short-burst. I assume many of the larger dinos will have more extended battles. Pachy v utah is based on who hits first, while teno v carno is a longer brawl.

[alpine plover]

Well winning isn't also essentially killing either
Hate quoting a dev, but getting out of the situation safely unscathed seems like a win in my book. Especially if you leave a consequence for your pursuer to make it more difficult for them that effects their survival.
Though the concept of slowly ramping up fracture severity could be saved for the addition of Anky as well, specifically for dealing with stubborn Carni Apexes

[hasty coyote]

Honestly I can’t think of any more arguments because this is just kinda looping between 2 opinions.
“breaks aren’t enough”
“Breaks are enough”
Was a good argument tho

[alpine plover]

I didn't think of it too much as an argument, just discussing the idea of how to rectify a current balance issue

[hasty coyote]

We gonna argue about this too now lmao. Was a good discussion then.

[alpine plover]

It's great that Pachy can defend itself appropriately. But how it achieves that could be an issue. Especially when it's no longer just about defending itself. They're "hunting" now in the ecosystem which I find not the best representation of how Pachy should be balanced.

I know there was a dude in the server all for herbivores going around "stomping" carnis
Though with a concrete visual example of how it's playing out. Turns out it isn't panning out too well

[hasty coyote]

It’s an issue with every Dino atm because they’re controlled by people. Everything kills for spot. Hopefully future mechanics should give people other things to do.
But pachy is more prevalent because it runs on the foundation of “the best defense is a good offense” so it goes on the offense because people find it fun, and it’s kinda forced to.

[alpine plover]

Even if other mechanics were given to have player "have other things to do" it does not rectify players engaging in nearly careless forms of combat without consequence other than hitting a timer again for growth

If players had "more to lose" or if there were more complex health systems punishing stubborn players

Which is why the mentioned "players upset from a fight 30 mins ago" isn't such a bad deal given they must've been consistently engaging recklessly to a point of near death in a hunt.

[thin mantle]

@pallid igloo it isn’t deino’s job to make stegos fear for their lives, stego is the only animal deino doesn’t threaten, which makes sense given deino’s purpose

And ofcourse, this is outside the context of Duo’s, which can easily take a stego down when coordinated

[half girder]

deino gon be free food for spino

[raw cypress]

imagine

if they dont let Spino swim Deino is gonna thrash it

[sonic needle]

@twin oar your point right there with the "buged" water Spots and being able to see Deino move underwater and his O2 and etc. is just the reason why i stoped playing this Game 3 Months ago. Sadly they lose more and more Players and dont do anything about it

[half girder]

#balance-feedback message at the cost of stam sure, if a full charge headbutt hits you, you sure as hell wouldn’t be able to get up fast unless you use stam, knockdowns do need work with alt swings tho

[mental roost]

Eat grass and die... of course. Also fun fact: Triceratops is generally believed to have won majority of the time, not Tyrannosaurus Rex. Majority of hunts fail in nature, because the prey is either too fast and escapes, or fights back and isn't able to be put down. That's why predators prey on the weak, sick, young and old. Because healthy herbivores are significantly harder to bring down, even alone.
The same really goes for any heavily armored, combative herbivore. They'll generally always beat out their predators in a head to head fight, let it be due to size difference, or weaponry(horns that can break through some bones, and puncture directly into the body, alongside a crest to protect the only real weak point.. that being the neck).

In either case, on a both gameplay and realistic standpoint: Triceratops should be holding the advantage in a fight, the majority of the time unless the Rex is able to pull off a sufficient ambush--same goes for any animal really. Getting an ambush drastically boosts your odds of success, let them be a fast runner, or heavily armored opponent.

-Sidenote: I know that's not the main point of the message, but I still felt like doing this because boredom and attempting to clear up a few things.

[hasty coyote]

@sonic needle im just going to send you this: #balance-feedback message

That arguemtent is made way too many times, the "just herd up" mindset doesnt work.

its never always a 1v1, but its never always a 1v3 either. Just look at the current game, carnos alone outnumber most the herbies in the game, if you balance the herbies to not be able to defend themselves while they cant run either, then theres no point in playing them.

[sonic needle]

true your right with that. I just mean that you see it nowdays with Zebras and buffalos. If they were a bit smarter they would notice that they are 10 or 20 Times the Numbers of theyre Predators and could attack but they are not going to because they are weaker. The only Option is for them to Run and the sick and old get captured and probably killed. I mean for a Game its quiet difficult to balance it right. But still its just annoying to see Stegos being able to camp the waters with a Group of 5 and nothing is able to do anything about it. Same with the Carnos now but Stegos and Deinos are still able to kill them or skilled Pachy players. But Stegos in a big group cant be killed and thats what bothers me. Its just Weird atm and idk if Adding more Dinos would make it easier to balance or Harder.

[golden coral]

Limit stegos to two adults, just like deinos. Of course, something that actually "enforces" a group limit would be needed too, but still. There's no reason for stegos, being an apex, to come in groups of more than two adults. Nothing of that size and power should come in more than pairs really, be it carni or herbi.

[hasty coyote]

Honestly, the issue with stegs is that nothing we have in the current roster SHOULD hunt them, but that doent mean they cant. Crocs body anything smaller than them but are weak to anything around thier size and larger. And steg is like the 2nd(only to anky) worst thing for utahs to hunt, it 1-shots them with wide and long attacks. Stegs were just not a good dino to add in atm because nothing can hunt them.

So I would decrease their food MASSIVELY, so they have much more competition and limit their own numbers. Maybe nerf their blood pool a bit too so utahs can have an easier time.

Lastly, we cant balance the game off real life. Real life isnt fun or fair (we're playing a videogame instead of hunting animals for a reason lol) and these dinos are not controlled by animals, they're controlled by people who act very differently.

[thin mantle]

See Rap gets it^

[slim dragon]

I wake up
I see a Eat Grass and Die suggestion
Day ruined

[slim dragon]

@sonic needle I feel the need to correct you on how animals, especially zebras, behave. They're not as stupid as you may think, they just don't have the same mindset as us humans, and be aware that a lone zebra can perfectly kill one, maybe two lions. But when a pack of 4+ lions come by, no matter the size of the zebra herd, they all run away. Because none of them want to risk its life fighting them off, and if one turns around to fend off the attackers, they don't trust the others to join them. And they're right, because if someone sacrifices for the herd, better take the opportunity to run away rather than sacrifice yourself as well. But you should know that in nature, "prey" animals are often stronger than their predators, even when alone. But if run is an option, they're always gonna run, because it seems less risky. An animal, as opposed to us humans, does not know what it can or cannot kill before trying it out. So since your suggestion was revolving around trikes, do you think a trike would realistically run away from a rex ? It's an animal that has two swords, a shield and a knife on its face. Rex is also faster than a trike. In that situation, trike is like a rhino. Do you see rhinos running away often ? No because they can't. But that is the reason they can kill any predator (except humans) without taking much risk. So trike beats rex 1v1. And if you're not okay with that, try to think about how predators manage to kill prey irl. Think. Ambush. Outsmart. Don't suicide yourself on something that is clearly stronger than you.

[mental roost]

The predator with the highest hunting success rate today is the African Wild Dog(this is excluding dragonflies)... who is only at around 60% of their hunts, on even solo targets. Lion prides? One in four hunts actually secures a kill. Mesozoic era, it'd follow a similar idea no doubt. Majority of hunts fail. Whatever dinosaur would have the highest hunting success chance though, I have no clue though, you'd have to probably do some digging on that--with no real accurate conclusion being plausible.

[slim dragon]

Actually the predator with the highest success rate is the domestic cat, with around 80%
But cats are cheaters
And I thought african wild dogs were around 30% ? (which is already enormous, considering the average in nature is 10%)

[mental roost]

Last I checked, their success rate was 60%, which is really good. -Also yeah, domestic cats casually causing extinctions of native wildlife moment.

Dragon flies had a success chance in the 90's or some shit though. Didn't want to include them though, because well.. insects; insect warfare is a unique topic all around.

[frail bobcat]

Why are cats cheaters?

[slim dragon]

Because they can wall-run, they emit pheromones that confuse their prey, they have 9 lives, they have one of the best nightvisions of any animal, and they literally have antennae

[mental roost]

And are protected and bred further by humans, so they have a safety wall on top of that.

[frail bobcat]

wait Wft what pheromones?

[tranquil pawn]

yeah their bodies are home to a microbe that reduces fear so the prey in the cats territory isn't afraid and goes into the open to get nommed on

[hollow canyon]

I don't want to get into the whole herbivores vs carnivores argument because tbh people on both sides in this thread have been just spouting utter nonsense with regard to that so I will just focus on one thing - that Ankylo is NOT smaller than that Spinosaurus.

matter of fact the concept art Spinsoaurus seems to be quite a bit smaller than I expected the animal to be

This Ankylosaurus would likely outweigh it by quite a bit

[old hull]

i would not even give that art any thought , chances are spino wont be able to do that to anky at all

just look at deinos concept , it shows it eyeballing stegos and biting a tenontos head , neither of which you can actually do

[hollow canyon]

Idk about that

This idea of Spino flipping Anky has been mentioned by Dondi before from what I recall

so it very likely might be something that makes it into the game

as for Deino and Stego - of course you can bite Stego's head as Deino

the one thing that I wouldn't pay much attention to when it comes to concept arts are the sizes of animals

[old hull]

yeah but dondi and the devs say many things , many of those never make it into the game

[hollow canyon]

they aren't necessarily representative of them in the game at all

[old hull]

that is true

[dusky surge]

thats because plans and concepts can easily change, it's just you guys are fortunate enough to hear about these plans well before any other community for any other game would

the isle is SHOCKINGLY open about its long term plans

[hollow canyon]

I'm mainly getting at the argument that the Spino is "bigger" than Anky there, it actually isn't

Ankylosaurus is at the very least the same size if not outright larger than Spinosaurus on that concept art

[old hull]

is that what people have a problem with?

[hollow canyon]

" I mean just look at the Concept art with the Spino and the Anky. I mean first of Spino is a lot bigger then Anky but if that Anky was in a group of 2"

my point is that Spino isn't a lot bigger than Anky

[old hull]

size looks fine to me , if anything im surprised its that big at all

[hollow canyon]

it's probably the other way around - that Anky is larger than Spino most likely

in general speaking in terms of realism - lest that Spino has bones made of titanium it isn't flipping that behemoth of an animal

[old hull]

true but it is a game , if the devs think it should flip it , then it will flip it

[hollow canyon]

assuming Spinosaurus is more or less 14.5m long which is the common irl estimate for it then that Ankylosaurus is likely the largest animal in the game barring Shant and sauropods

[dusky surge]

personally, i honestly would not care if spino got that "anky flipping" mechanic removed

it just seems dumb and EXTREMELY specific

it's like how the concept art shows bary slamming deino's mouth shut

it's unnecessary as a mechanic that only serves to fuck over one playable so another can seem cooler in comparison

[hollow canyon]

I personally don't think that Spino has any business approaching Anky in the first place

[mighty tree]

Saying a trex would win a 1v1 against trike most of the time is like saying a single lion would kill a buffalo most of the time

[hollow canyon]

except a single lion is like 1/3rd the size of a buffalo while T.rex is bigger to much bigger than Trike

depending on what specimen of each you use

[mighty tree]

also except triceratops has it easier to impale a trex with front facing horns

[hollow canyon]

Which makes your comparison with lion and buffalo all that much more ridiculous?

The two scenarios are just completely irrelevant to one another

For any other person that has a bright idea of trying to state which of the two won against one another - just stop, we have barely any evidence of how interactions between these two animals went. Unless you pull out a time machine from somewhere, travel back to Cretaceous and get some statistical data about the interactions between these animals don't use irl for your argument. It just makes you look like you have no idea what you're talking about and isn't relevant to the balance of the game either way.

[dusky surge]

entirely agreed, these animals were the last two i thought of ever facing off

let alone spino having any form of advantage

[hollow canyon]

I think that T.rex should be the only apex predator capable of threatening an Anky in a 1v1 scenario. It's literally designed to do just that and I think that apex herbivores should mainly be threatened by specific predators that are designed around countering them in one way or another. E.g. a T.rex should fare very poorly against a sauropod and Giga should just walk past Anky without even thinking of bothering itself with it.

[dusky surge]

100% agreed

Giga likes sauropods, stegos and shants, rex likes trikes and ankys, spino likes deino and... deino

[hollow canyon]

I'd generally want an armour mechanic to be introduced into the game but idk I guess I'd have to create a feedback on how that should work.

[mighty tree]

holy shit, i just meant how trike would win most of the time unless the trex is in a duo or trio

[hollow canyon]

and you know that because? What? You've seen some T.rex have a go at a Trike while walking through your backyard or something?

[mighty tree]

no

its speculative mostly,

[hollow canyon]

You don't say...

[mighty tree]

but afterall if something gets stabbed with a 3 foot long sword made out of keratin it would most likely die

[mighty tree]

in the chest*

[steady current]

Or belly

[alpine plover]

Because its common sense?

Trike is an actual tank and can solo rex

Unless there was a rex pair like spinex said

[mighty tree]

even a legshot would be fatal cause it could make the trex disabled

[alpine plover]

Think trike against a rex like a lion vs cape buffalo

[alpine plover]

Same with a rex vs anky scenario

[hollow canyon]

I think I said that in my first message - I don't want to engage in this pure cretinism of one ignorant know it all claiming that "but mah trikeratop stabby stabby the trex" and another clown shouting "but me trex go crunch your trik". There's very little palaeontological evidence to how the encounters between these animals went.

[steady current]

Well rexes were probably hunting in packs

As far as we know

[hollow canyon]

I'm not going to explain again how dumb this comparison is, just read up above.

[mighty tree]

what else would the trike do

tail slap it?

[alpine plover]

Bite it?

[mighty tree]

perhaps even fart on it

[alpine plover]

Or kick it 👴🏻

[mighty tree]

thats a hadrosaur

ornithopod

[hollow canyon]

But my suggestion is - if you have no idea about palaeontology, don't mention it in your video game arguments? It's literally irrelevant anyways, if the game was meant to be based on realism 3/4 of the roster would just go extinct almost immediately.

[hollow canyon]

Wanna show some more evidence of how little of an idea of what you're talking about you have? Triceratops bites were absolutely devastating.

[alpine plover]

This man rlly said

[mighty tree]

if i had no idea about paleontology i would come here saying how a pack of unfeathered velociraptors could scar a trike to death

[hollow canyon]

I mean I don't see much of a difference between that and what you're doing right now

[mighty tree]

💀

alr

[hollow canyon]

It's irrelevant for the game balance anyways

If T.rex is faster than Trike(which it will be) the confrontation between the two shouldn't be in T.rex's favour

otherwise Trike will be just bad

this whole argument of "bu...bu-but in real life" is completely irrelevant to the game's balance, if the game was balanced around how the interactions between these animals went, almost all the carnivores on the roster would go extinct very quickly, because T.rex would just outcompete them

a large part of the herbivore roster would also be literally unplayable

[mighty tree]

yeah it would be

[hollow canyon]

@azure crescent Better yet - make all the apexes solo-only animals.

[azure crescent]

true, i only mentioned trike n anky cuz of above posts

[fresh laurel]

Why is Giga stego?

I mean it would seem like Rex would have the easier time with stego

[golden coral]

Pairs please. Solo is boring, let me have at least someone to talk to and play with!

[azure crescent]

i can see pairs during mating

[fresh laurel]

didnt trike win more often irl?

so if you use realism trike still should have that advantage

[golden coral]

I guess. I do favour pairs just because I enjoy interaction in the game, but I can do solo stego, wouldn't be the first time after all :p

[hollow canyon]

We don't have a time machine to check last I've heard

[fresh laurel]

Wasnt meaning it like that XD

[hollow canyon]

also, I really, really don't want to get into this discussion

BUT

size comparison between a Trike and T.rex

[azure crescent]

he literally just said that argument was irrelevant

[hollow canyon]

the grey silhouette Trike is fragmentary, it might've gotten that big but it's not certain

the T.rex is complete

[fresh laurel]

I was saying that because he said realism doesnt matter for game balance and I was mentioning how trike might of had an advantage irl anyways

[hollow canyon]

Does that make it clear why the comparison between these two and a lion vs buffalo is just pure absurd? We don't know how the "fights", "hunts" and what not between these animals went

and it's completely and absolutely irrelevant to the game's balance

[azure crescent]

but it will in game too cuz it cant run from rex

[fresh laurel]

pretty sure devs dont want that again

Trike shouldnt just die in a face tank if its slower

[azure crescent]

thats what i said

[hasty coyote]

Here’s my idea for the fight in-game, if trike can keep its face to the Rex, it wins. If the Rex gets behind or ambushes it, then Rex wins.

[hollow canyon]

I think it should be a skill match up where the use of special abilities dictates who wins with Trike having an advantage over T.rex. Trike should also dumpster Spino and Giga. T.rex should be it's most difficult match up

[azure crescent]

anky should cause rex some problems too

[hollow canyon]

yea naturally, both Trike and Anky should be mainly concerned about T.rex but also have a bit of an advantage over it because they're slower than it

[fresh laurel]

Rex should probably have a great advantage if it lands a ambush with a bone crushing bite

[azure crescent]

i think the worst non sauropod herbivores a rex can hunt is shant and cheirus

[hasty coyote]

That too, I just don’t know what either of their abilities will be, or if trike ends up like stego and doesn’t really have an ability.

[slim dragon]

I can't see a solo rex reliably killing a shant

[azure crescent]

that’s what i said

[slim dragon]

Oh so by "can hunt" you mean in an extreme case

[azure crescent]

cheirus rivals rex’s size and shant is just bigger