balance-feedback-discussion

[hasty coyote]

Exactly

[onyx surge]

Agreed but the fight is more favorable to pachy alt is stronger and easier to land than utahs whole kit

Really you shouldn’t fight a pachy alone unless you’re capable

[hasty coyote]

@onyx surge I do agree that teno v carno isn’t in a bad, but spot have a few issues with your argument:
1: you can’t balance pachies around being in groups(I will link you a message where I already explained why not because it’s too infuriating to explain again)
2: leg break is not a “get out of jail free card” carno is almost as fast and has more stam since it costs a lot for pachy to ram
3: nothing can outrun a carno, you might have less stam but you can cover more distance than any other dino, you can kill them before you run out, and other herbie’s attacks cost a lot of stam.
4: running on a rock only delays the inevitable, only teno can cross rivers to escape effectively and its built to do so, and hiding in the forest doesn’t work because of tracking

[wise sparrow]

Pachy is also a longer grow and far slower. Pachy has every right to stomp a utah into the dirt

[hasty coyote]

Yeah the fight is pachy favored and it should be. Pachy can’t run from the utah so it has to be able to fight it.

This is why dinos need to be viable solo and can’t be balanced around having a group.
#balance-feedback-discussion message

[onyx surge]

I dont disagree

do agree that teno v carno isn’t in a bad, but spot have a few issues with your argument:
1: you can’t balance pachies around being in groups(I will link you a message where I already explained why not because it’s too infuriating to explain again)
You have to because they are meant to be in groups if you buff to where it’s capable of handling a carno alone how do you think it would play out when they are in groups of six
2: leg break is not a “get out of jail free card” carno is almost as fast and has more stam since it costs a lot for pachy to ram
Almost still can’t catch it which is problematic for carno considering pachys are usually in packs
3: nothing can outrun a carno, you might have less stam but you can cover more distance than any other dino, you can kill them before you run out, and other herbie’s attacks cost a lot of stam.
You beat a carno by draining it that’s why I mentioned out run
4: running on a rock only delays the inevitable, only teno can cross rivers to escape effectively and its built to do so, and hiding in the forest doesn’t work because of tracking
Not the inevitable safe logs is very common when they do that and when you run into jungle you can find water and cross that which will keep you safe I’ve done it many times very easy to escape

[onyx surge]

I’ve read it and I understand they should be able to somewhat handle it alone but think about the players that grow a 3 hr Dino Only to lose to one drastically smaller than them you have be considerate in the most plausible way

Really the problem is the roster is too small but buffing Dino’s won’t fix that

[azure crescent]

these dudes saying ram has no momentum when standing but they ignore the fact that the pachy literally throws itself against you 💀

if you think pachy is OP then you actually genuinely literally have a skill issue

like unironically

[onyx surge]

I don’t think anyone does they are just very strong in a pack

[azure crescent]

it's almost as if it's supposed to do well in groups

[onyx surge]

yeah and i agree

[hasty coyote]

I don’t think you got the point of most of what I was saying. If pachy is balanced only in groups, then why not just play carno? Plus, carno isn’t “losing to a drastically smaller dino” that drastically smaller dino is running away. I don’t want a solo pachy to kill a carno, and it can’t, but it needs to be able to run. Otherwise you just die the moment a carno sees you

[azure crescent]

yeah and it's not impossible, as a single carno it's possible if you get the jump on them, which is quite easy if they're near SE

a single pachy doesnt do enough dmg to kill carno before it runs out of stam

you'd see more solo pachies if they were viable solo

[onyx surge]

It can run its very easy to get a leg fracture and escape this is also a survival game you can’t go wherever you want without repercussions

[onyx surge]

I just think if you buff pachy to where it can handle a carno do the same to any Dino relative to its size

And eventually people will see the problem

[hasty coyote]

1: you don’t bother them in a group. A single carno or even a small group shouldn’t be able to just slaughter 2x more pachies. These pachies have no way of running, and carno can easily just avoid them.
2:still can’t balance in groups, a leg broke carno can just run down a solo pachy.
3:you die before you can drain a carno’s stam
4:can’t deny safe logs, rivers shouldn’t be the only escape, and carno’s are plains hunters and shouldn’t be tracking you down through a forest.

[hasty coyote]

Handle a carno and kill a carno are very different. I just want pachy to be able to run after it gets a break. A good utah can kill a carno. Plus the general balance of this game “can’t run? Fight. Can’t fight? Run” makes stuff like pachy (which are slow glass cannons) forced to fight their predators.

If carno starts losing a fight, it just runs off. If carno sees a fight it can’t win, it just runs off. If pachy sees anything other than an apex or large dino, it has to fight because it can’t run.

[onyx surge]

1. They have a way to run 2. It’s the best possible way to balance it 3. If you are alone and you don’t understand your Dino 4. It’s in the game people will take advantage of it

[azure crescent]

not to kill, just to be able to make the stun-and-run strat work

pachy shouldnt kill carno, yes, but it should get away safely from a solo encounter

[hasty coyote]

Explain to me then, why is it best to make solo pachy unviable, and balance it around groups is the best way to balance it?

[onyx surge]

It can run if you can’t escape I’m pretty sure you don’t know what to do in those situations I’ve never had a hard time escaping a carno as a Utah or pachy

[azure crescent]

no because it ends up having worse stam than carno because the initial ram wastes like 10%

[onyx surge]

The thing is it isn’t it has many opportunities

[azure crescent]

if you're caught in open fields you're done if you're alone

[azure crescent]

solo pachy is indeed unviable, all because of carno

[hasty coyote]

You know, where all it’s diet is and what 90% of the map is

[azure crescent]

if the carno has 2 braincells it will usually kill the pachy

first you've got the fact that the first charge probably WON'T hit its leg

which makes carno end up have more stam

because of the stam wasted from ramming

[hasty coyote]

Then the carno just tail rides and makes each next hit 10x harder to land

[onyx surge]

Near jungles which is an escape doesn’t take long to reach it

[azure crescent]

and takes even less for a carno, which has like the same turn radius

[onyx surge]

If tail rides you don’t know what you’re doing

[wise sparrow]

Tracking system go brrrr

[hasty coyote]

Doesn’t take long to die either, and tracking negates the cover of jungles

[onyx surge]

Water

[azure crescent]

also ^ how the fuck can a carno tailride a pachy

[wise sparrow]

Deino

[onyx surge]

Lmao you’ll cross before it gets you

[azure crescent]

if you go for the leg of the carno it leaves your back pretty open for it

[onyx surge]

I’ve done many many times

[wise sparrow]

I'd honestly rather take my chances with a carno than get 1 shot by the invisible water worm

[onyx surge]

When your in a jungle goal it to get to water literally your best and smartest choice

[azure crescent]

Can it fight? If no, then run, if yes, then fight.
Pachy can’t run, and can’t fight solo against a carno

[onyx surge]

and it shouldn’t

[azure crescent]

but the thing is the diets for pachy are like in the MIDDLE of the plains, not near the jungle

[hasty coyote]

I dont know if triborg is just fighting the dumbest carnos in existence, or is just the most godly pachy in existence

[azure crescent]

and it can’t run either if its going for a perfect diet

[azure crescent]

considering how carno players are prob the first

[onyx surge]

I’m not impressively good I just know the map

[azure crescent]

bruh

[azure crescent]

^

[wise sparrow]

1 carno sees a solo pachy, pachy is almost instantly dead

2 carnos, that's just an instant death sentence to almost every solo herbivore

[onyx surge]

The nerfs and buffs you guys are taking about just aren’t gonna stick because at the end of the day this game is directed towards groups

[azure crescent]

^ its more common to see carno groups than pachy groups

and carno groups can take pachy groups so easy

[onyx surge]

Yeah and they never last long

[azure crescent]

pachies literally NEED the dam to survive like 2 carnos

[wise sparrow]

I've seen 5 carnos sustain themselves for hours because of funni defenseless dumb ai

[onyx surge]

Yeah I’m not saying anything toward that you guys might be misunderstanding me

[hasty coyote]

Then you can’t balance them around pachy in a group and carnos being in a smaller group, a 1v1 is carno win, and a 6v6 is a carno win, so less people play pachy, so pachies have smaller groups, so less people play pachy, and this repeats until we get even larger hordes of carnos than we do now

[onyx surge]

Like I said the problem is also a small roster do you want this game to be focused mainly competitively?

[hasty coyote]

No, I really don’t. Every time I try to explain that pachy should survive alone for XYZ, you just say: but carno shouldn’t lose.

[onyx surge]

Because your point doesn’t only apply to pachy it applies to all Dino’s relative to it

[hasty coyote]

No, but every Dino needs a way to survive, or they end up like dryo and hypsi

[wise sparrow]

Honestly carno either needs to be heavily reworked or removed. Current carno will be impossible to balance

[hasty coyote]

I’m meaning pachy specifically because it’s slow and a glass cannon. Utah is agile and a glass cannon. Dryo is just very agile.

[onyx surge]

The pachy can survive on its own never said it can’t ?

[analog mirage]

Huh?

Current Carno is meh, it has issues but nothing major.

[hasty coyote]

I don’t believe that either, teno v carno is good, pachy just needs buffs and tracking needs nerfs

[analog mirage]

It’ll probably just get overshadowed from other playables in the future unless it gets a rework

[onyx surge]

Look man you’re clearly misunderstanding me I’m saying pachy is fine and it doesn’t need to be buffed and if you do buff it to that degree you literally have to change the opproach of the game

[hasty coyote]

If the carno has more than 2 brain cells and pachy isn’t godly, then it struggles to survive way too much. You have to get a leg break first ram to guarantee an escape. If you don’t, then you get tail ridden, waste more stam trying to hit, and eventually get tracked down even if you do manage to break them.

[hasty coyote]

I’m saying pachy is in a bad spot atm, so it needs help.

[onyx surge]

You carno can’t tail ride a pachy this isn’t legacy ?

It really isn’t the roster is small and the game is buggy

[hasty coyote]

Yes you can shake them off, but it’s difficult and then makes hitting the ram 10x more difficult because of the turning. During the oasis times (when pachy was broken I admit) you could 180 ram a carno that tried to chase you. It was a great way to stop them from just w m1

That’s why I personally want a way to trade speed for turning. If you stand still, the turn nerf doesn’t happen.

[onyx surge]

Not really the carnos turn is very bad compared to pachy

Yeah I think that would be fine trading the rams speed for turning

Pressures the player to be more defensive which should be the approach for pachys

[hasty coyote]

I don’t want to just gut carno or make pachy a god, I just want hitting and escaping to be more reliable.

[onyx surge]

the thing is it already is you’re most likely to get a leg fracture rather than a body which will create an opportunity for the pachy

[hasty coyote]

My issue is not the fracture I get, it’s about actually landing a hit against a carno that understands how to dodge and running after getting the break.

[onyx surge]

Yeah and if that carno knows how to dodge that carno is very good you don’t really dodge it they just miss from a miss read

[hasty coyote]

My main issues and what I would like are in this message. I just want pachy to be more reliable, that way it’s viable solo, but isn’t overbearing in a horde. However, you should still likely avoid pachies if they have a big group.
#balance-feedback message

[onyx surge]

Yeah I’ve read it before and I feel the same towards the ram

[wispy valley]

@wise sparrow a side to side swing for carno, maybe? Use its head and neck as a battering ram. Could also be a means to fight other males for mating rights. Sauropods do this with their necks. Carno may be able to do that too with its long ass, thicc neck

[hasty coyote]

Don’t give carno pachy’s alt swing pls. Unless it’s not supposed to be used in combat, and more cosmetic or for in-fighting

[azure crescent]

@alpine plover it already breaks pachy bones if it rams you at the same time

[alpine plover]

bro ima be fr with you every time ive ever gone head on with a pachy hes kicked my ass

and that shouldn’t be the only instance a charge breaks bones this is nearly a 2 ton animal running at 55kmh

[azure crescent]

i think charge is like 60 kmh lmao

[wise sparrow]

No that would make carno unapproachable to anything smaller

[wise sparrow]

@alpine plover there are a lot of problems with carno doing fracture.

It's the fastest animal in the game. Giving it the most powerful ability is dumb
What fractures would it do? Head fractures would just practically be instant kills, body fracture would also be an instant kill considering every animal other than carno physically cannot function without stamina, leg fracture is also basically a death sentence because nothing short of an apex is able to tank bites from carno. They all need agility to have a fighting chance, leg fracture removes that.
Carno is strong enough as is. It doesn't need a giant buff like that

Not to mention if carno gets fractures it would only be fair to give teno some too which would be equally as busted unless it was only head fractures. Not to mention that would also remove all of pachy's identity

[alpine plover]

or maybe ppl should just be aware of their surroundings and not get charged? the charge is meant to be an absolute death sentence.

and no you wouldn’t have to give teno fractures

[wise sparrow]

The sheer damage and bleed and stun charge applies is more than enough. If you lose a fight after landing a charge I think you need to find a new main

[alpine plover]

i feel like ur talking abt balance while im talking abt realism

[wise sparrow]

Balance should always be put over realism

[dim haven]

@alpine plover are you a troll?

[alpine plover]

ight how abt carno charge breaks bones on anything smaller than a teno, assuming it doesn’t kill whatever it charges on impact.

[wise sparrow]

Ah yes because clearly pachy and utah need to be even more fucked after getting charged

You can kill pachy and utah before they even recover from the stun

[dim haven]

Why make Carno even more powerful than it needs to be and every thing smaller than a teno gets killed by charge alone lmao

[alpine plover]

ight fine then no bone break🤷‍♂️

no realism

[wise sparrow]

Is it realistic? Yes
Is it balanced in any form? Not by a long shot

Not to mention carno chargeing in the first place isn't realistic

[alpine plover]

ok so ur talking abt balance while im talking abt realism

[dim haven]

If we’re actually being realistic carno was thought to use it’s head as a club, Troodon doesn’t even exist, and Oviraptor doesn’t steal eggs.It’s a game dude

[dim haven]

So why put it in the balance feedback??????

[alpine plover]

the point is abt making the charge realistic smart one

[alpine plover]

where else would i put it?

mechanics ig

[wise sparrow]

Also if you wanna get super realistic teno would effectively one shot carno with a kick to the head and fractures would last for weeks

[alpine plover]

my apologies. god forbid i accidentally use the wrong feedback channel.

[dim haven]

It’s a game and again carno uses its head more as a club with its teeth so idk what you’re trying to say with realism

[wise sparrow]

You didn't use the wrong channel

[alpine plover]

then take it up with the devs. as of right now at this very moment, carno charges, so at least make the charge effects make sense.

[dim haven]

It should be in no channel tbh, dumb idea

[alpine plover]

plz stfu already ur adding nothing to the debate

[dim haven]

Is not knocking down creatures that weigh tons good enough?

[alpine plover]

its fine. for the 100th time im talking abt realism.

[dim haven]

What debate?This is balance feedback discussion and it’s public, ik you’re a bit slow with reading but it’s ok lil bud😢

[alpine plover]

idec abt the bone breaks anymore. im jus trying to get my point thru ur thick skull.

[dim haven]

Of what?

[alpine plover]

that its abt realism u dumb cunt

were u dropped as a child?

[dim haven]

The game isn’t about realism as I just pointed out Troodon doesn’t exist and oviraptor doesn’t steal eggs dumbasa

[alpine plover]

fun fact troodon and oviraptor arent even in the game

[wise sparrow]

I understand you are talking realism, and yes, charge dealing fractures is realistic.

However this is the same game where carno can walk off a shattered femur. Realism is secondary, if it will ruin the balance, things will get fictionalized

[dim haven]

They’re being implemented in the game you “realistic”

[alpine plover]

alright i see ur point. thank you for having a coherent discussion with me.

[dim haven]

Like devs literally said this week Troodon is being worked on rn

[alpine plover]

they’re gonna be in by the time the games dead lol

[dim haven]

Yes because dumb ideas like yours are brought up.Honestly not surprising

[alpine plover]

fuck the realism then.🤷‍♂️

and thanks for having an extremely respectful discussion

[dim haven]

Yup if it makes the game idc about it as much

[dim haven]

No problem😁👍🏾

[onyx surge]

Dryo needs a buff 🗿 btw im biased

[wise sparrow]

I will never understand why they nerfed dryo

[dim haven]

Seriously tho

[wise sparrow]

Isle devs let small herbivores have fun challenge (impossible)

[mental roost]

Same...I can understand lowering it's bite force, but... just why make it so much worse. It was perfectly fine being just a little faster than Utah.

[dim haven]

Yeah, they literally took the only thing that could make it a little bit of fun since it doesn’t have burrowing rn

[mental roost]

||Avid burrower Dyro hater. I just think it's dumb, and it'd be better to make Dyro more social and maybe even nocturnal.||

[onyx surge]

It’s teriible atm the dodge is horrendous

It should get a move that gives it a burst of speed

[wise sparrow]

If dryo gets burrows I will pull my hair out

Give dryo something unique

[mental roost]

It will.. because they apparently can't think of anything more unique that also makes sense.

[onyx surge]

😩 I would die for burrows

[mental roost]

Nothing about Dyro makes it look like a burrower. N o t h i n g.

[onyx surge]

Don’t care looks cool 🗿

Yeah you right tho

[mental roost]

It has long legs, large eyes, a aerodynamic body, cute design, and generally pretty vocal. You can do so much more with that than a borrowing ass burrower that'd be better given to animals that fit the role better in terms of design and gameplay.

[wise sparrow]

We already have
Minmi
Proto
Homalo
Presumably ava
Megalaina to a degree.
We dont need MORE burrowing animals

[mental roost]

Protoceratops can work as a burrower(shield to block the entrance and deny invaders entry)

[wise sparrow]

Proto actually has proof of living in burrows so he gets a pass

[mental roost]

Would also simultaneously reward it due to its short but muscular limbs, low to the ground body plan, and slower mobility that'd given it a genuine reason to use burrows.

Homalo would be sick if it got complex burrows...Just saying.

[onyx surge]

Pt should have a grab mechanic I wanna snatch eggs and juvis

[mental roost]

Quetz.

[onyx surge]

Pt…..

[wise sparrow]

No. Pt is far to light and front heavy to grab juvies

[onyx surge]

😔 but grab fun tho

[mental roost]

Also intruding on Quetz's turf a little too much(whenever the hell it'll get added that is).

Probably when Johnny Siverhand becomes a reality.

https://media.giphy.com/media/fSpC2w245xoVyCCuVx/giphy.gif

^POV: Quetz just got added to the Isle

[onyx surge]

That will be an amazing day when it comes

[spare badger]

What would Quetz even grab? Dryo?

It gets pinned by Utah

2 shot by carno too

[mental roost]

My taxes.

[fresh laurel]

isnt quetz 500 pounds?

[spare badger]

250 lmao

[fresh laurel]

wait

oops meant 500 pounds lmao

[fresh laurel]

How would they even make quetz function with such size though

imagine dying to something in like 4 hits before you could even see it hitting you lmao

[spare badger]

Idk lol
It has to be light to fly

Utah pins it

[fresh laurel]

just saying man... Quetz size with such low hp seems a bit unviable

imagine ptera bumping into it in the sky XD

I guess Quetz could have some range on its attacks?

[spare badger]

Yea

[fresh laurel]

Quetz peck better pack some power to it ngl

[spare badger]

Allo could be able to 1 shot it

Depending on how strong they make it

[fresh laurel]

wait could quetz just punch things to death?

[spare badger]

Dunno

[fresh laurel]

feel like it would hurt a lot

punch for raw dmg and peck for bleed?...

Oh man just realized how quetz will die to headshot hits

if it tries to peck you, you could just bite and trade which would be horrible for quetz more than it is you lol

[mental roost]

Beak takes reduced damage.
--This is a joke-

[stray venture]

Ik this convo died hours ago but I thought megalaina was a burrow raider so would it really be a burrower?

[dusky surge]

realistically carno's neck would fucking break if it tried to do that charge irl

[covert cave]

My man would be laid out 💀

[fresh laurel]

utah wouldnt even be able to out run carno in any way lol

[hasty coyote]

@fleet torrent I'm replying here instead of mechanic feedback because your suggestions is about balance

I agree with what you're saying for the most part, but changing pachy to need a run up before ramming and limiting the turn even more will just make its ram useless. The turning nerfs are already allowing carnos to just tail ride since pachies have a hard time actually turning around to bash them. It will also hurt the pachy v utah balance because pachy could easily rely on hitting an alt swing, then hitting a ram while they're down to get a bone break and end the fight. This would force pachies to only use alt attacks to win the fight, which they still can dont get me wrong, but it just limits their options for the fight.

Personally, I would do the opposite, allow pachy to trade speed for agility. If you are standing still or walking, the turn nerf while charging would not go into effect. Also, just as a minor convince, allow pachies to hold their charge indefinitely and cancel it with left click. These should make pachy much more defensive rather than chasing down their predators and allow them to not just be juked by WASD. And as an added bonus, you can see pachies rear up in a defensive position when they see a threat, which is just kinda cool.

[native berry]

@alpine plover was that a joke or a serious suggestion?

[dusky surge]

hes entirely serious

[alpine plover]

hopefully you have an aneurysm over how ridiculous it is

[keen plover]

I personally don't mind if carno has fractures eventually on its charge. Not pachy fractures, but something to change the outcome of the fight to favour you greatly. Whenever there's more roster options + fracture severity

[alpine plover]

that works

or they could take charge away and give us the accurate club head

[native berry]

if there are more dinos that counter carnos it would be fine yeah but at this point of time it would straight up kill the game for me

[keen plover]

Yeah it would be way too much currently

[dusky surge]

id be fine with a perk for it

less damage/more stam on charge but you get fracture damage

[keen plover]

Oh yeah, perks. That could work out well actually

[azure crescent]

should i put this in a message im gonna put with perk ideas when i get home? i’ll credit for the idea of course

[alpine plover]

i would love that

[wise sparrow]

https://tenor.com/view/aneurysm-hhhhomeboyyyy-kings-dark-tidings-saga-by-kel-kade-reaperleviathan-head-explode-gif-21578105

[alpine plover]

yes

[fallen vale]

@inner lynx. This new scent system is much better and can / will be fine tuned. The old scent mechanic was horrendous. Yes they pumped it from The hunter, game studios pump each others ideas all the time. There's no need to re-invent de wheel everytime either when something does what you want, just take that. Chillout

[inner lynx]

"much better" is a bit generous, and the older scenting mechanic had more complexity to it and room to grow. I wouldn't call the old scenting system horrendous at all. It might have tanked FPS, but that's partially to poor optimization. Pumping a purely PvE hunting mechanic into a PvP game isn't a good call, and it shows. Actually, I might be hypocritical because I am in full support of the Wolfquest has a scenting system. It works to where each animal has a passive scent trail that follows them, and it can be picked up on when sniffing. Winding mechanics are also a thing, so it would add more dynamic encounters where a hunter would want to keep their scent downwind of their prey to avoid being detected. Something similar could be given to The Isle as it is simply more fitting. And offering your own ideas to be taken into consideration for the game as I see fit is the exact idea of feedback, so what's your point?

[fallen vale]

You sounded outraged and accusatory last night, you didn't like the reply you got and sound outraged and accusatory again today.

https://tenor.com/view/say-what-dunno-shrug-john-krasinski-idk-gif-16557956

[modest carbon]

I think it just needs some major adjusting, I do agree with the PvE argument side of it but as long as it's toned down to make it fair the system is a lot better

herbivores should be able to smell footprints or at least lredators though.

[inner lynx]

How did I sound outraged?

Making valid points and disagreeing with a Dev is not being outraged.

[fleet torrent]

Yes, I don't know, I published my opinion where I thought it was correct.
Let's see, I like the opinion but as I said I personally consider that the pachy is well above the carnotaur having the possibility of having better movement when doing his special ability, it is not just giving the carnotaur an advantage since i also mentioned things that They should be seen in it, for example the "spam bites", etc. But balancing the fighting quite a bit would not be bad at all. Obviously we can't balance (for example) a stego to a carno, the stego will be 100x better (in my opinion), it's stronger, a lot more health, stamina, full tank only slow, but what I'm going for is that things are very unbalanced right now, sometimes I notice that it becomes frustrating to play like this. Not only me, when I play with randoms in "packs" they also comment that something bothers them. But hey, we'll see how everything goes in UPD5

[old hull]

for the record ive seen your comments on the new tracking and im 100% with you , devs as per usual have the i know better attitude and how dare we question their wisdom right

even if the mud was added to the river banks it still would not make this tracking system any better , its so damn easy to track anything it honestly ruined that part of a hunt/being hunted , i mean cmon its litterally a blue arrow pointing to where your target is lol

[alpine plover]

I think the devs always had issues thinking over design philosophies and what the macro effect they could potentially have starting from the micro

The little arrow pointer, and the see through foot prints separate in a vacuum mean little.

Together though, then we have a near inescapable, unavoidable tracking system when they're coupled together in unison

Also mentioning the fact that apparently the system comes from a pve game

An entirely different set of mechanics geared to favour the single player leverage in their environment

This could be apparent in several other concepts we've seen in this game, such as roster niche overlap(apexes-bloated roster) that detract from ecosystems, the inclusion of humans that do not benefit the roster, the abundance of mashed other concepts all under the same hood of the current game(hypos, mutants, cannibals, tribes, mercs). It's common in design/storytelling to scrap ideas(even good ones) to pick a premise for realistic standards or goals to hit. All of those other concepts can easily be vaulted for another future project.

[inner lynx]

I completely agree, I don't think they have any realistic foresight for this game. Their whole plans for hypos, tribals, and fleshed out merc gameplay just seems overtly-ambitious. Our average wait for title updates has been around 5 months, and even then, the content is minimal (this doesn't mean that the work put into it should be discredited, but the content in updates quickly becomes boring after a couple days or weeks of play time). The Devs always seem to put attention to working on their ambitious ideas for existing mechanics "for the future". It's probably most things I see Punch say in regards to upgrading or rebalancing an existing mechanic or animal in the game, and it feels a bit negligent. If you question it, you're spoke to as if you're an ignorant child that knows nothing about how this game is developed. They'll preach the whole "this is early access" or pull the "it's in development" card, but that doesn't excuse poor management for game development. At this rate, the teasing for mercs, tribals, and strains feels like a marketing scheme rather then a promise. This game will have it's 7th anniversary this year, and after all these years of human emphasis in the game, we still have not seen any except very simple iterations that lack any complexity or interaction with the environment besides killing/being killed.

[alpine plover]

@fossil sun No

[fossil sun]

isle player moment

i dont understand why people are fine with it lmao

[slim dragon]

Cause it makes teno something else than a one-trick-pony
If tailslam is better than kick in everything, why does kick even exists ?

[fossil sun]

then why does stego bite exist

and why does teno bite exist

[somber sphinx]

People only spammed tail-slam and nothing else bc it gas everything: long range and hight damage

It was pure cancer

[fossil sun]

isnt its tail slam its main ability and defence...

[somber sphinx]

It was still unbalanced and it was no skill

[fossil sun]

you say that yet people spam kick most of the time now you are making an attack thats supposed to be its big attack worser then its alternative attack

[somber sphinx]

People use combos now, now u use the tail for stiunning then kicking them in the face

[fossil sun]

not every dinosaur needs to be mega skill... and plus it isnt that op atleast you cant move around whilst tail slamming since you are stuck in position so its possible to dodge and punish the teno player

[somber sphinx]

It stuns the oponment, has an insane reach and high damage def unbalanced

[fossil sun]

then fix the range

or just make it that you cant be stunned if hit by the tip of the tail and only at the base of the tail

[somber sphinx]

Fix the kicks hitbox and stam for teno is the only thing it needs

[fossil sun]

theres no fucking need for a damage change

[somber sphinx]

Theres no need to go back to u3 teno

[fossil sun]

teno's kick is supposed to do less damage but an easier move to hit oppoments

[mental roost]

I'd be fine with the tail slam doing more damage but having lower DPS and being less efficient than the kick. It'll always just feel wrong in a sense, that an animal's primary feature is not being used to its full capacity, despite being: the signature trait of the animal, and realistically its most devastating form of defense.

[dusky surge]

i prefer new teno

old teno was super lame to play imho

[mental roost]

I'm not particular to either. I prefer old Teno staying truer to what the animal's design is and following up on it.. New Teno doesn't have that but makes use of its kit better, while simultaneously feeling like it's missing something or its lost something as a result.

I'd be much more intrigued to see other potential avenues on how to change things while taking what's been learned from U1-U4 Teno and what's been learned from U4 5 Teno.

[somber sphinx]

Old teno was easy to play and had no skill

[mental roost]

Old Teno was basically just timing, stamina management and hoping lag didn't screw you over. New Teno is more engaging but still feels... hard to describe it, but: not as efficient or as good as it could be as a full on design, accounting for both how the animal looks, sounds, wields and plays.

It's a combo brawler, so it should be using all of its kit depending on situation and circumstance... but I still feel that the tail's been nerfed in a way that's left more to be desired. Sort of the feeling that: you're on the right path and there's more potential to be explored and built upon.. yet no push to actually go down that path.

You could modify stun mechanics, stamina, wind ups, and potential combo tools and kits--although I'd be concerned about current game balance as it'd all be experimental and trying to make sure it's not going too far, but not being too afraid to dive deeper into new possibilities.

[alpine plover]

Because if you give tail dmg too it just turns Teno into a "one attack only" creature which is not what it's supposed to be.
It's supposed to use everything in its kit to brawl. Not one singular attack that trumps everything

Only thing tail slam needs is better stamina.
And imo kick range is fine. I just think that instead of bleed it should have fractures

Teno with high tail slam dmg is just flat out boring. Sorry.
The only skill involved in it is timing and that's it.
"Oh no, I hit my attack once! Time to now spam it 3 more times and that = the death of my opponent". Yes, very skillful and fun gameplay

[fossil sun]

I would probably just make tail slam do more damage but just fix the range like it wont stun or do a ton of damage by the tip or the end of the tail and the stun can only work if hit at the base of the tail

[alpine plover]

So then why have all the other attacks

[fossil sun]

then why have stego bite

[alpine plover]

It's actually pretty useful, believe it or not

[fossil sun]

kick= easier to hit things claw=bleed

[alpine plover]

Lmao

Did you actually just say kick is easier to hit?

[fossil sun]

wtf how...

[alpine plover]

Baiting, dealing quick dmg

Stego's bite isn't exactly slow. While it's only 50 N it racks that dmg up pretty quick

[fossil sun]

ye

[alpine plover]

And just the slightest bit of dmg taken from the opponent makes the tail even more devestating

[fossil sun]

and its kick is also less costly

[alpine plover]

Yeah

So just make the tail slam less costy but kick, tada

[fossil sun]

fair ig

[alpine plover]

I still don't think kick should have bleed, but rather fractures

Anyways. Did you make the suggestion because you have troubles fighting Carno in 1v1?

[fossil sun]

yea thats bs

why does kick do bleed

[alpine plover]

Well

[fossil sun]

I dont think it really needs fractures it should just be a base damage

[alpine plover]

It's not "bullshit". It does actually make sense. I just think having fractures on it is better

[fossil sun]

because balance probably or it was an isle dev moment

[fossil sun]

ye makes more sense then bleed

[alpine plover]

Teno rn is pretty balanced. Aside from tail being too costy it's the most balanced creature imo

[alpine plover]

Eh not really

[fossil sun]

ok you have to admit that that tail move looks more devestating lmao

[alpine plover]

Big claws go brr

That one, def

In-game? Not really

[fossil sun]

hm I suppose

[alpine plover]

The one in the concept has a lot more momentum lmao

(I still want it)

[fossil sun]

I dont play evrima alot lol I just hope it doesnt do good bleed damage otherwise that would be stupid

[alpine plover]

The kick does do pretty good bleed lmao

But it's short range so like..Y'know

[fossil sun]

fair but it shouldnt do alot of bleed damage

[alpine plover]

This is ideal teno to me:

Tail: 2nd least stamina consumption, lots of range, stuns the opponent
Kick: High dmg dealer, most stam consumption, fractures, short range
Claws: Omnidirectional, decent dmg, high bleed, little stamina
Bite: Quick little nip to stack abit of dmg / use for chasing

[fossil sun]

here is how I would fix teno slam: more damage then kick,nerf the range and it can only stun and do alot of damage to you if the base or the start of the tail hits you and it doesnt stun you at the tip of the tail and make it more costly. just my opinion after all feel free to disagree

[carmine patrol]

tbf kick's hitbox is actually good and synched with the animation and I never actually had a problem with kick not hitting when it should've

the only time when I have problems with kick is when you knock down a sub carno; when it's on the ground and you try to kick its head it wont register even if you're right on the carno so you have to go for body/tail shots

[hollow canyon]

All that Tenonto really needs atm is just lowered stamina cost on both kick and tailslam

imo they both cost too much

[alpine plover]

Tail slam, sure

Kick, nah

[wise sparrow]

Kick is fine stamina wise it just needs a functional hitbox

[alpine plover]

You have to be conservative brawling as Teno, making it too forgiving turns it way too effective, when it already has the stats to escape engagements too

[wise sparrow]

Tail slam though... wtf were they doing?

[alpine plover]

I like the new tail slam(aside from stam cost)

It's a ranged stun tool, to punish carelessness and combo it with your kick which is the damage dealer.

Here's an example of properly using the tail slam/kick combo

https://youtu.be/WlcDzuhLJow

[wise sparrow]

Tail being the damage dealer was a mistake just because of how long range it is

[alpine plover]

I think it was the better play to reorient tail slams purpose rather than adjusting the entire stun system to accommodate it

[wise sparrow]

Although for some reason they kept it's old stam cost

[alpine plover]

Since Aken did mention that in prior updates, you could possibly stun lock Carno's into death with constant tail slams

[wise sparrow]

Stuns in general are just bad. They need a rework imo

Same with grabs

[alpine plover]

Depends if there's counterplay, stuns/grabs work well when there's layers to it

[wise sparrow]

Both of them are dumb mechanics that lock you in place with no player agency. Grab being the bigger offender

Because I sure do love being punished for playing anything under 4 tones

[alpine plover]

I do dislike current knockdowns in this game

You're on the ground for way too long

Way too forgiving for the defender

[placid reef]

haven't checked with the isle in some time, has tenos tail slam been changed?

[wise sparrow]

You should be able to scramble around while downed. Still enough to heavily fuck you over, but enough to give some way of survival

[alpine plover]

Tail slam does less damage
Kick's been buffed

[wise sparrow]

Kick is now the main damage dealer and slam is so expensive it is nearly obsolete

[placid reef]

aha... so slashes are still pretty redundant ig

[alpine plover]

Sprawl, burns stam to get up from a knockdown

[placid reef]

wasnt stuff like this beeing suggested even months ago for like failed pounce and the sorts?

[alpine plover]

I think for the current iteration of knockdown should be a new version which is "concuss"
If you get hit in the head, you could be knocked down without the ability to sprawl. With your screen briefly in a hardly visible blur

[placid reef]

so pachy and ones similar to it would be immune?

[alpine plover]

Say if a Teno knicks you on the body/base of the tail as a Utah, you should be able to sprawl from that, Teno only having brief time to dish out another attack.
If a Teno gets a headshot though, it deserves the long knockdown to punish.

[wise sparrow]

Tons of ideas have been suggested for month but never even get acknowledged

[placid reef]

ikr, suggested a Utah kick like six months ago lol

[alpine plover]

I think Pachy/Ceratopsians deserve immunity given their combat style
Face forward

[wise sparrow]

Ever since it came out the diet system was called awful. And yet not a single tweak at all

[placid reef]

no no no... they removed oasis

[alpine plover]

No tweaks at all which is concerning

Given it's a universal system affecting everyone

[placid reef]

true, and anky

[wise sparrow]

And then you complain the devs never listin, they come over and say they do, and then never speak/acknowledge feedback after

[alpine plover]

And when it's in this state, affecting growth, stats, gameplay loop
They should've doubled down on tweaks, balance, updating this system throughout all these months

[placid reef]

has anything happened with mud pools or are they as useless as always?

[wise sparrow]

Still just used as a get out of jail free card for carnos

[placid reef]

got on a hypsi yesterday to see how the game has been and went through north river which was dried up and the fact you couldnt wallow in it... shame

The Isle: 1 step forward, 2 steps backwards

[hollow canyon]

It does have a functional hitbox, it's one of the more reliable hitboxes in the game. Its cost is too high though, that's for sure the same is the case with tailslam.

The kick's current cost is more or less what tailslam's cost should be

the kick should have a lower stam cost than that

The only reason why Tenotno's kick seems to have a bad hitbox is because every single goddamn attack in the game has an ACTUALLY bad hitbox that extends and hits stuff that is not in the actual range, this makes the kick seem worse than it actually is.

In other words - among all the broken attacks, the one attack that works as it should might appear broken.

[hasty coyote]

you say that, but you can miss point blank with a pachy ram still

like you literally have to position so that the tip of your head hits the edge of their body, or you phase through half the time.

[hollow canyon]

Not sure what that has to do with my point that Tenonto's kick is one of the few attacks with a reliable hitbox that actually works as it should?

[hasty coyote]

you said that EVERYTHING that has a terrible hitbox extends too far, im giving you an example that doesnt. Personally, the only hitboxes that are too big are carno's bite and steg's swing.

id have to see what they do to tail stam, but a carno can just bite the base of tail and not get hit by the kick, so teno is forced to slam, which uses way too much stam.

[hollow canyon]

Well yea it was a bit of an exaggeration.

Pretty sure every bite works the same as Carno's bite

just btw

I was informed it's a global issue for obvious reasons most noticeable on Carno

[hasty coyote]

I havent seen people test the others, but I remember the test you posted in here a while ago about carno's bite, and that was just aids

[hollow canyon]

It is

and apparently that's the case for all the bites from what I understand

something to do with how they're coded iirc

[hasty coyote]

@alpine plover the main reason deino has a much weaker bite is to force it to use lunge on smaller dinos. Otherwise it can basically just 1-shot a teno by biting instead of having to drag it underwater. Also, deino suffers from carno syndrome, it bodies things smaller than it hard, but loses to most things the same size and larger.

[native berry]

@limber delta and also make it grow as fast as a dryo

[dusky surge]

y'know you could just ask to nerf carno rather than sarcasm that isnt actually constructive feedback lmao

[placid reef]

nah thats to hard and evident

[calm ibex]

tbf this one gets more reactions and attention, til it gets deleted that is....

[limber delta]

They deleted it so they clearly know what the issue is with carno, they just need to actually do something about it

[analog mirage]

Honestly. I think the main issue isn’t actually Carno itself, rather a lack of other playables to balance out Carno competition and interaction

Every carnivore main basically only has Carno and Utah to play. Plus there’s nothing to really compete with Carno so adding Bary, Cerato, Dilo will help with that.

Other playables like Diablo and Kentro will make Carno think twice and it will try to either be extremely cautious with them or not go for them at all

[placid reef]

dilo would be more for utah i feel like

[analog mirage]

Yes and no

Dilo isn’t much during day time, it’s kinda forced to fight whatever sees it in sight but at night it can definitely help kill things like Carno

[placid reef]

dilo is still 250kg heavier than utah

also the beggining of night dwelers is more of a sign we just need to have hiding spaces, like caves, logs, overhangs, we've seen them in concept arts so many times, small relatively safe places to rest

[analog mirage]

Yeah

Like I said, more competition = more things Carno has to contend with plus spreads out Carnivore players

I’m sure not everyone will wanna play Carno once we have a more spread out roster

[atomic mantle]

I feel like the herb on herb combat wasn’t thought through when matching up pachy against teno, unless there’s a rock or water the the teno is almost always wrecked by leg fracture. And tenos never have the stamina to escape a pachy. When I play teno I shouldn’t be chasing carnos and running from pachies, and when I play pachy I shouldn’t be wrecking everything but full stegs, carnos, and deinos

[hasty coyote]

I disagree with most of this.
tenos have more stam than pachies while sprinting, so all a teno has to do is keep running and just kick/tail slam the pachy when it goes in for a ram. A slam or kick knocks pachy to the ground and is normally a death sentence for the pachy. Pachy also doesnt have enough stam to fully kill a teno in one go, they need to sit and regen which gives you a chance to kill them. 2 might have enough stam, but just keep running from them and you should be good. 3+ you just need to run from and are at least slower than a pack of carnos.

The rest is just the balance of the game "cant fight? run. cant run? fight." Pachy doesnt have the option to run from anything other than stego or deino, so it needs to be able to fight them.

[atomic mantle]

When I play pachy tenos never stand a chance, once I break their leg it’s usually nothing but 4 calls and them trying to zig zag through bushes. I was completely unaware that pachies had less stam then tenos because when I play as teno im usually out stammed or when I’m pachy they they all seem to be burnt out because they resort to biting. I don’t think it’s pure skill that I keep out fighting tenos it just seems like they’re just a bad match up because as a teno it feels like I’m just fighting stronger Utah’s that traded bleed for bone break.

[atomic mantle]

This is all 1v1, if there is multiple tenos they can usually keep pachies at bay even if they’re out numbered

[hasty coyote]

i havent 1v1 tenos too much, but the times i have its a hard battle. I norm run out of stam before i can kill them and have to run off and regen then come back, even when i hit every ram. However, a pachy isnt just a stronger utah with break, pachies are much less agile, more predictable, and have far less stam. A single kick or slam gives you enough time to either claw them or just slam/kick again to kill them.

Also, im like 80% sure that pachies have less stam than tenos while just running, i havent directly tested it, so if im wrong then my bad. However, if a teno misses a few tail slams or kicks, then thats a lot of its stam gone right there. And pachies use a lot of stam for their attacks too (10% on a hit ram 5% on a missed i believe) plus they have to basically constantly sprint since their walk and trot are terrible, especially compared to teno's amazing trot

[half girder]

3v4ed tenos that used cuddle rock, teno be free food

[dusky surge]

thems some really bad tenos

[half girder]

baiting the tail and abusing the fact that teno takes pretty good tail damage is pog

[dusky surge]

teno takes the same amount of tail damage as everyone else as far as i know lmao

also the point still stands that the tenos are bad at the game lmao

[half girder]

yeah, very easy food

love killing them with tail bites

[rapid flicker]

That trot is what kills pachy as a design.

[keen plover]

I don't think it kills the design. Not everything is meant to have a good trot. Pachy is mainly a defensive animal that when need be can fracture and run. Other systems like tracking need to be changed to allow them to actually run away

[carmine patrol]

ye but it has a much larger tail so it's easier to hit and it's hard for the teno to do anything about it

[dusky surge]

it literally has a tail slam

[carmine patrol]

you can't tail slam if you already tail slammed before

so bait and then bite the teno's tail

[dusky surge]

it can literally walk off the rock and fight rather than trying to do whatever those tenos were doing

i still stand by the fact that those tenos were dogwater

[carmine patrol]

true

I'm also growing my first carno since the patch and oh boy they are super easy to grow compared to tenos ar pachies

[keen plover]

If a carno is smart, 2 kicks should be more than enough for them to run off

[carmine patrol]

4

[keen plover]

4 is getting really low

I wouldn't risk 4, especially with the risk of healing all that health

[carmine patrol]

well just don't make another mistake, the teno literally can't touch you if you don't make a mistake

[keen plover]

I guess that makes sense, but won't work for me. 200-300 ping

[carmine patrol]

then play on a server you have less ping on 😄

unless you can't

[keen plover]

AUS is dead

[carmine patrol]

poor guy

[keen plover]

Friday night 28/100

[carmine patrol]

I have 130-180 ping on eu servers and 300 on na

gonna try to play on an NA server just to know how it feels like

[dusky surge]

oi its better than normal

we're literally doing out best to revive it

[keen plover]

Just saw, I'm in rn

bruh my utah is gone Time to grow another one

[placid reef]

OOF

[carmine patrol]

how do you revive a dead server?

[keen plover]

by getting people on

[placid reef]

got on ti in a morning here in eu and 1 server was almost full, and im 1-2h ahead of most of europe

[keen plover]

30/100

[placid reef]

economical monopoly

[obsidian yacht]

@inner lynx you do realize that this game is a major wip

[carmine patrol]

that's the problem, no-one wants to get on because most players are in NA or Eu and they have 200-700 ping on Au so why would they get on it?

[keen plover]

I mainly meant AU players, since I've seen a lot on NA specifically

Issue is, they have playables in most other servers so they play on that first

• most likely to be full but yeah

[carmine patrol]

dont they have like 500+ ping on NA?

why would they play there?

[keen plover]

200-300 for NA. Like 300-400 for EU (for me anyway)

Also, oddly enough. You don't really feel ping unless you're playing something like a pachy

[carmine patrol]

or utah

[keen plover]

I play carno and teno, so I can afford to take a hit so it's fine. Although you do get screwed as something small

[keen plover]

yeah that as well, and dryo lol

[carmine patrol]

Who plays dryo?

[keen plover]

[carmine patrol]

XD

[alpine plover]

excuse me

[jagged cosmos]

@faint robin i think the solution to that second problem you mentioned about carnis tracking too easily would be to bring back old wallowing basically. Removing the ability to wallow on riverbanks is what makes it so hard to hide from predators now when bleeding

[faint robin]

Idk if it is true because when you are running with carno or utah on your tail there is no time to wallow

[unborn iris]

If you have a carno or utah on your tail they're not tracking you. They're just chasing you.

[jagged cosmos]

^

back when we could wallow on riverbanks it was actually super helpful to go and sneak a wallow in the moment you were alone

rn with mudpits being so spread out it feels like a forgettable mechanic

[placid reef]

it doesnt feel, it is a forgettable mechanic

[jagged cosmos]

yeah xD

[unborn iris]

Either way, it would be a lot better than your options now. Mud pits are just bad design. Bring back river wallowing. Delete mud pits. Not being able to do anything but bite in there is kind of broken.

[jagged cosmos]

agreed

[unborn iris]

Carno can just facetank a stego in a mud pit.

[placid reef]

idk why river banks cant be brought back at least just to cover foot prints and slow blood drips by a good margin

[jagged cosmos]

i could see mudpits in the future being like.. a better alternative to a riverbank if you happen to find one, but all in all riverbanks are still better rn

i wish they'd atleast make certain areas of riverbanks be muddy and other parts be more rocky or sandy, that way its not absolutely everywhere but still a lot more accessible than mudpits

[placid reef]

i'd just make it dynamic in a way

[unborn iris]

Honestly even if river wallowing stopped your tracks, blood included, but you still bled like normal.. it would be nice.

[placid reef]

like we have dried up rivers but you cant do shit at them, you can get out of water but that wouldnt make a temporary muddy spot

[unborn iris]

I'm not sure how much sense that makes.. but just that river wallowing wouldn't be as good, somehow.

[placid reef]

maybe just reduce the amount of visible blood, instead of every 10 cm, its like every 5 m

[unborn iris]

Yeah, something.

[onyx surge]

I do

[placid reef]

same bleed, just visually changed so its harder to track

[jagged cosmos]

like riverbanks would be used to cover tracks, sort of a temporary solution, and mudpits would be used for properly clotting the wounds and such?

[unborn iris]

Exactly, if that's what they want.

[placid reef]

basically

[jagged cosmos]

thatd be nice yeah

[placid reef]

mudpits do everything, but riverbanks just help to against traking

[jagged cosmos]

itd also help a bit with deino gameplay too, since removing muddy riverbanks removed half of the reason anyone would go to rivers

[unborn iris]

But remove the inability to use alternate attacks in mud pit. Should be able to do anything in a mud pit.

[jagged cosmos]

yeah thats dumb

just the other day i was a carno fighting a utah in a mudpit and it couldnt pounce me there, makes no sense

if anything thatd be the best place for utahs to ambush something

[unborn iris]

Yeah. If something goes in there, utah may as well give up or be ready to wait for them to get thirsty or something.

[jagged cosmos]

yeah

[keen plover]

Not really, since carno moves quick in mud and utah can't really use its agility there

Well quick compared to utah

Even if you could pounce, it isn't worth the risk

[unborn iris]

So mud pit should just be a free get away from utahs?

[jagged cosmos]

well regardless its still weird that things cant attack properly in mudpits

[keen plover]

They would be regardless

you go in, utah dies if it attacks

[unborn iris]

Nah

You use to be able to pounce in there.

With directional dismount, you have a good chance to get away.

[jagged cosmos]

it should be left up to the player's skill not the game preventing the attack alltogether

[unborn iris]

Especially with multiple utahs attacking.

[jagged cosmos]

i know some players out there would be skilled enough to pounce and escape

[keen plover]

Depends on the mudpool tbf

Some are tiny, some are moderate

[jagged cosmos]

ofc, thats when it comes down to brains

[keen plover]

and 1 is large

Although the small ones, yeah you should get the carno

[unborn iris]

Yeah, obviously old oasis is just a carno playground. But that's part of the problem. All you can do is bite in the mud. Doesn't really make sense.

[jagged cosmos]

yeah

and i saw someone said stego cant swing there?

[unborn iris]

Nothing can do anything except bite.

[jagged cosmos]

wacky

[unborn iris]

That's literally it, for any dino.

[keen plover]

I agree with that, especially as a teno when you go in to heal and utahs chase you in lol

and just turns into a bite fest mess

[jagged cosmos]

i can imagine the deeper mudpits would kill your stam usage, but you should still be able to do the attacks

[keen plover]

I feel like the only issue with going into one should be slower movement. Stam cost should be the same

[jagged cosmos]

have you ever seen those documentaries where something gets stuck and dies from exhaustion?

im talking like... the ones that go up to your dinos chest kind of deep

[keen plover]

OOOOOH

read it wrong, but yeah.

Think we're getting stuff like that

[jagged cosmos]

i hope so, thatd be a cool thing

[keen plover]

We'll eventually have tarpits so

In fact, tar is in the current game

[jagged cosmos]

tarpits, the forbidden mudpits

[placid reef]

now the real questions:

Mudpits for sauropods

[keen plover]

Dear lord

[tranquil pawn]

Tarpits?

[jagged cosmos]

both tarpits and mudpits can do that but yeah basically

[tranquil pawn]

but tarpits would kill you?

[jagged cosmos]

i think? tho i was just talking ab deep mudpits

[placid reef]

live events

[keen plover]

Sauropod herds would be cool to watch (slow, but cool)

[placid reef]

all the collective 3 that got on the server

[keen plover]

I hope they don't make it stupidly long

[placid reef]

god, in time, server size will really be a big problem

maybe technology will have evolved enough by then

[keen plover]

Yeah, hopefully they can make 200 work idk if that's possible

150-200

[placid reef]

they had 200 in legacy, they ran like shit but they existed

by the time the need for a bigger server comes it should be pheasable

but there will prob be a need for a more diversified or rotation set in place

bc even 200, on a map around this size with all that will be added...

[keen plover]

It did run like shit, nycta especially (I think it's 200???)

But yeah, I'm worried the official server roster might be a lot

So players may be too spread in playables + a big map to further spread them out

[placid reef]

i had an idea for when they get more maps in

[inner lynx]

And that is justification for laziness how?

@elfin ginkgo Why?

[obsidian yacht]

Not laziness, prioritization

[inner lynx]

They prioritize adding new content rather than fixing the already poorly-made/not functioning mechanics?

Sounds like a bad priority.

[pearl thunder]

@full fiber deino can prevent this from not being land croc

[full fiber]

You...do know that crocodilians can slap their predators in the water, too, right? And what will stop animals from coming up and attacking you while you are regaining stam on the shore in the sun (like the devs plan)?

[wise sparrow]

Walk back into the water with your monstrous health pool

[full fiber]

Assuming you can.

[obsidian yacht]

u realize they cant fix everything at once right?

[fresh laurel]

Wouldnt the old mechanics become game breaking?

Like do you really think the devs should leave utah pounce and game hitboxes how they are rn?

Just so you can play as some apex or something that will die to said broken mechanics

Like imagine they didnt fix the all seeing nametag bug... like revenge killers would go ham

[inner lynx]

Yes? But to ensure that every mechanic functions as intended and is balanced is kind of important. Otherwise, putting it off is just negligible.

[inner lynx]

I don't, and I never advocated in favor of that.

[hollow canyon]

I think what you're doing is the definition of barking under the wrong tree, CowboyCharles is saying exactly that they SHOULD fix this stuff first before moving on to add new things to the game.

[fresh laurel]

Yea I noticed earlier lmao sorry

[alpine plover]

@foggy magnet tbf there was the sound cue

[foggy magnet]

ye but it was very soft

[alpine plover]

Ehh

[hollow canyon]

That video is a literal definion of a skill issue

[alpine plover]

It was loud enough, just turn up the game volume

[foggy magnet]

and wow you reacted fast btw

[alpine plover]

Uhh yeah, kinda hard for people with good awareness to let a Carno snooping about to ambush them

In open plains

[foggy magnet]

i was standing there wondering what was going on bc the other utah just killed another utah so wasnt realy focusing on backgroung noises

so i geuse i could have been more attentive

[alpine plover]

Yeah

[hollow canyon]

Yea, you definitely could've

[alpine plover]

Maybe watching upping the volume and looking around every once in awhile would help

[foggy magnet]

i was always looking around, why would i look around when there is a cannibalistic utah who might want to kill me

i8 would look at him

[alpine plover]

Because there could be a Carno

And it's open plains, you'd spot it a long while away

[foggy magnet]

i was behind bush i couldnt see behind me

[alpine plover]

If it was a jungle or forest with foliage than it'd be understandable, not everyone has tuned reflexes. But not in this case, it was the plains

[foggy magnet]

i can show little bit of before that if want proo

proof*

and i did hear the carnos before and knew of them but they were figthing stegos so there was constant noise(and the video is busy uploading about he bush thing)

[low kiln]

The sound cue of the carno charging can be heard for roughly 1 second, and it's a pretty audible purr

[slim dragon]

So you were hearing carnos but weren't watching and thus you got killed, so the solution would be to increase the noise they make when they run ?

[low kiln]

In this situation, it was due to negligence that you've died, as you did stand out in plain open.

[foggy magnet]

by little and like i said i was focusing on the cannabilistic utah

[low kiln]

There were even heavy footsteps carno leaves as it's charging.

[slim dragon]

I hate to say it but it really looks like a skill issue

[low kiln]

lmao

[slim dragon]

Not saying I wouldn't have died in the same situation. But I'm not an exceptional player either

[low kiln]

I heard 3 audible footsteps, and the charge cue, before you were forced to commit non-alive.

[foggy magnet]

as you go back over footage is seems easy to say it but when in game it is not that easy as watching footage

[slim dragon]

Well as you said you also were watching a movie at the same time

Sometimes you gotta admit that when you lose, it's your own fault

[low kiln]

I often play carno, and fight other carnos, I can hear from a good distance when they charge, and have enough time to react.

[foggy magnet]

i know i guese that could have massive effect

[foggy magnet]

and yes it is my fault i dont want to continue figthing so im just going to up my volume if not already max

[foggy magnet]

the video failed to upload so just trust me that there was bush

[reef viper]

@red seal I main an adult Stego and Deinos have a stun that when played right will eventually lead to Stegos being knocked down in health to about 50% within 2-4 seconds. We put our tail in the water or stand sideways along the shore to minimize the amount of potential damage from an adult Deino while drinking or protecting others that need to drink. It doesn't always work because a lot of skilled Deinos can come at us from an angle to inflict maximum damage. It feels pretty balanced on my Stegos at least.

[red seal]

@reef viper Stegos come to the river just beacuse they want to kill deinos for fun. Stegos should be scared of deinos and not the other way around. Deinos can't even go out of the water without getting attacked by a stego. That is just not how things are supposed to work.

[slim dragon]

If deinos can go out of the water without fearing stegos, what prevents them from going out of the water and ruining the entire land ecosystem ?

[red seal]

deinos should be able to rest on land without getting attacked by a stego for no reason.

[slim dragon]

They already can
Rest in a place that isn't easily accessible to stegos (there are some on the map)
Or rest in a place where you can see things coming from afar and get back into the water if someone comes in to attack you

[red seal]

Herbies are not supposed to be this agressive... I have a clip of a stego running at me from a mile away the second i got out of the water. And when a stego can kill 3 deinos very easy, the stego deserves a nerf.

The stego is too strong for the dinos you can play at the moment. It is just way stronger than anything else rn.

[slim dragon]

https://tenor.com/view/beasts-of-bermuda-kaperoo-the-isle-path-of-titans-gif-23526654

[covert cave]

was waiting for that

[slim dragon]

Same as deino I guess ?

[covert cave]

yes

[slim dragon]

you're welcome

[covert cave]

kentro / bary replacement

[reef viper]

Well, depends on the stego. You also have to remember that each individual player has their own unique style of play. You'll have some aggressive ones and others will be defensive. Just avoid adult stegos for now. They may be weak when the bigger dinos come in.

And then you'll have others to complain about. xD

[frail bobcat]

A stego/deino matchup should be more like "do I really risk my life fighting a stego/deino". You know, like activly attacking the other and staying in the fight even after the stego left the river to drink. And it shouldnt be that a stego group can just block entire rivers.

[half girder]

#balance-feedback message i think the penalty is fine considering it’s a very strong attack, this creature is meant to be played in a pack so a miss should be very punishing for that member, as for bucking i do think it could use a slight nerf in terms of draining a utahs stam in seconds.

@alpine plover

[sonic needle]

@native berry yes Deinos survive pretty easy just from fish. But most of the time I only play Deino and i wish to that we could hunt more of the "Bigger" Dinos But every part of the River had to be Wider and a good bit deeper in my Opinion. Crocs normaly dont stay somewhere where its to shallow. And shallow spots mean Hotspots for every other Dino.

[native berry]

true true

[sonic needle]

i mean it would be nice if there were a few shallow spots but we are Humans playing as Dinos and we know where its safe and where its not safe. Thats why there are always these Hotspots. A normal Animal would only see the Water and that its thirsty.

[native berry]

on the other side its not fun to lose a full grown dino just because you had to drink and got eaten by a deino. Because if you cant see it comming its not really your fault and you could do nothing about it what makes it so bad. I think there should be safe drinking spots but they need to be obivious and only a few so there would be a lot of land carnivores around

[hasty coyote]

They could also make the “safe” spots to drink shallow enough so that a croc moving around can be easily seen by the ripples, but a croc staying still on the edge is not noticeable. That way crocs still have a chance to kill, but the prey has the counterplay of keeping an eye on the water or waiting 5 mins to make sure there isn’t a croc waiting for them.

[white cove]

Isn't stego bloodpool pretty chunked by pounces

Like, their numbers work together well enough that 1 or 2 pounces wont kill it, but it's just such a risky ability to use

Thought i feel like ive been ~6s pounced and had it deal like 10% blood

Idk, been a while since i played

[onyx surge]

the audio for the footsteps is sometimes off and even if you hear it the carno wont miss by then

[alpine plover]

I agree there should be tradeoff, keyword is “reduce”

[half girder]

no

its fine where it is lol

[alpine plover]

It’s not

[half girder]

it is tho

[alpine plover]

Elaborate, I wanna hear it

[half girder]

its a pack dino, reducing it will only give that member a better chance to get away with more hp

only things id say is removing the pause after a dismount and remove the stupid delay before the pounce

other then that i dont see the issue

obv the bug which will hopefully be fixed

[alpine plover]

So do you agree with the current high risk it takes to land pounce?

[half girder]

yes

[alpine plover]

I see, then to retain the skill gap, you’d have to appropriately compensate the reward for landing your pounce

Essentially buffing pounce in one way or another

[half girder]

less stam drain when bucking for sure

[alpine plover]

Again, this is a solution thought of because of bucking the reward for pounce is always moderate, therefore reducing the risk to moderate would be fair on the Utahs part

Though you might be the players interested in retaining high skill gaps

[half girder]

si

u missed a pounce? simply get gud

or cry about it

[alpine plover]

So we’d instead have to tweak bucking and add an alternative way to counter it by maybe sprinting.

[alpine plover]

Players can be good, there just not being compensated appropriately for being good

[half girder]

i mean there is tho

[alpine plover]

Water?

[half girder]

a double pounce even with a buck or running buck which speeds the bleed would almost kill a carno

standing buck, dead carno

i mean kinda

i never really fight utahs cuz i normally run into carnos

as carno and pachy

last i ran into a pack they just ran off when i was solo carno

i stopped playing utah recently cuz the bug makes it boring

carno is op its boring too

[alpine plover]

True, but that’s a specific combo trading off an exorbitant amount of stam. That had to be achieved methodically

[half girder]

not really if your pack knows how to play the game

its rare to find good utahs tho so

they all cannibalize and die to carnos

[alpine plover]

That’s still a skill gap achieved by knowledge and landing a pounce where missing is likely death

[half girder]

not really, ive missed loads of times and made it out alive?

i dont see the issue tbh

u missed thats on u

its only an hour to grow lol

utah is super super easy to regrow

but tbh grow a carno, much more fun and balanced

[alpine plover]

I really think your idea of balance currently is coming from a place of the top 10% of players. Is it good that the skill gap exists? Absolutely. But just because you can pop off with a mediocre sniper doesn’t mean that reflects the general performance of it’s capability as a well tuned pick

[half girder]

get good, its simple really

join scopeog sometime

[golden coral]

But balance is done from the best, since that is what people can and will pull off in the end. You can't balance from middle ground, because then you'll get potentially unexpected results when you run into the really good players.

[half girder]

we practice there maybe we can elp u

amen erik

[golden coral]

Anyway, for pounce/bucking interaction, there's probably a good few versions that can be done, depending on what the interaction is meant to be, and if buck is supposed to be a proper counter to pouncing or not. And if not, what else aside from terrain they might come up with, on both sides. I would also agree with removing the "stop" before pounce, though I've never personally had much issue with it, but maybe I'm just good at leading my pounce. The dismount needs some work, I honestly think it looks very bad the way the utah currently "shoots" off. And you could exchange the stun on miss for extra stam drain, as long as it has the effect of preventing pounce upon pounce, which at least to me is what the primary purpose is.

[alpine plover]

If the best can only achieve adequate/moderate results. While average players achieving minimal results. It’s not a good reflection of the general balance. It leads to the current state of Utah where it’s only moderately viable to the players with high skill gaps.

[golden coral]

I'm.. not sure I would say they only achieve moderate results. But that might come down to what we think is adequate in results for any given matchup, so hard to judge.

But far as I can tell, when utah does work without bugging, it's fine.

[alpine plover]

If the margin of error is so small, it’s strenuous. Yet the effect once achieved is there still exists tradeoff where you gain an limited amount of possible bleed. This makes it a strenuous ability where you achieve a small amount of your possible output. While losing stam in the process

[golden coral]

But you do achieve more the longer the battle goes on, due to the defender losing stam as well and so on. Sure, in the beginning it's slow, but that's kind of how bleeders work currently. You get more out of it if the target is low on stam, health, food and water. So you wear them down. And well, I wouldn't say the margin of error is small, at least not when pounce is working properly, but that is just my experience with it.

But what else would you do? Lower stam drain, and also lower bleed/damage output? So it just drags out the fight longer but feels better for the utah since it's staying on longer? Or remove bucking but make the full pounce much weaker, so you always stay on but you just need to repeat many more times?

I guess the issue is that a full pounce is plenty lethal, so you can't let that happen unless the defender messes up, or things will just die to utahs.

Hence why bucking is so quick at removing the utah.

[alpine plover]

Nerf bucking by making it cost more stam, add an alternative to bucking by sprinting to removing a pounce, with minimal stam lost between both parties, at the cost of attaining more bleed.

[golden coral]

But you can't nerf the defenders abilities without also nerfing the pounce, since as stated, a full pounce is lethal. Otherwise you're getting closer to killing quickly as opposed to the attrition bleed is supposed to be?

[alpine plover]

You can nerf a defenders ability when it’s overturned and takes minimal effort to ward off the aggressor. You press one button.

[golden coral]

Would probably be better if they added a proper counter, then you could work on making pounce quicker or more effective in some manner.

Except.. buck is not a proper counter

It delays, it does not prevent.

[alpine plover]

Adding layers of multiple counter-play circumvents this

[golden coral]

I'm all for making the interaction between pounce and buck more interesting than just pressing a button. But I also want a proper counter, and not just something that you have to do to not die "immediately" and that only works to delay the threat anyway.

Sure you could add other ways, we did have the whole knocking utahs off via tree after all. Maybe if we get that back as well.

But that doesn't really make bucking more interesting

[alpine plover]

Why should there be a proper counter to pounce when landed? There isn’t any when Pachy lands it’s headbutt, pr Teno landing a tail slam.

It’s ability doesn’t payoff too unless the target is moving or enough time is passing where you haven’t died in the attrition

[golden coral]

So you'd rather add more hoops for the utah to land a pounce to where it can be countered by some measure then?

But I would imagine we have bucking because it would be odd for an animal to just.. sit there while something is hanging on to it and attacking it. But if pounce were more of a direct contact latch, that might solve it. But then it wouldn't be a pounce..

[half girder]

indeed

[golden coral]

Also, pounce is a continous attack, as opposed to tail slam or headbutt or charge. So I'm guessing that has to be part of the equation too.

I guess that'd be another option, instead of hanging on, the utah just pounces on, inflicts a certain amount of bleed, and jumps off again. Rinse and repeat that instead more times or something.

[half girder]

bro what

[alpine plover]

True, Full Utah Pounces are downright busted

Though because of buck it’s never feasible

[golden coral]

Well, I think those two come together

Full pounce is too good, which means buck has to delay it sufficiently, or things just die. As for how to fix it.. not sure

I know I want the utah to utilize both bleed and damage in turn to take something large out

But then that'd require a bit of a "rework" as well as a change back towards old shredder utah

[half girder]

yeah its really hard to balance it tbh

but the more utahs the easier the hunt

even through bucks youre still applying the bleed with a full buck pounce

all comes down to skill at that point

[alpine plover]

Tbh I miss old evrima Utah when it took more than one ability to achieve success

[half girder]

its a bleeder, work hard great pay offs

[alpine plover]

I think the dependence on pounce edges it much more meticulously balanced than any other playable that has or will ever come to Evrima

[half girder]

itll just be legacy then

[golden coral]

You could still make utah a bleeder even if pounce did damage, more or less

As long as we mean "you bleed the prey to make it weak and vunerable before you kill it", it'd work

[golden coral]

Pounce is just such a problem child on almost every level I think.

But I'm pretty sure we could rework the utah a bit to make it use both bites/claw swipes and pounces for a succesful hunt against larger targets

[alpine plover]

To start

Alt bite could use a rework

A defensive stationary attack doesn’t benefit Utah at all for its niche

Same can be said for Carno

[golden coral]

I don't know, I could see a use for the alt bite vs troodons honestly, if they're capable of taking on a utah that is (and if they can take a teno possibly, then I guess a utah is doable?)

[tranquil pawn]

Nacen idk why but you have the best Utah suggestions I've ever seen 😂

[alpine plover]

The trick is to sleep on it

[tranquil pawn]

[slim dragon]

Didn't read the entire conversation,but Utah's alt-bite isn't starionary. It's the opposite, it's a perfect tool for quickly changing direction while sprinting
At least, that's how it was last time I played

[placid reef]

I dont see Utahs alt as a defense tool, but as an offensive one for it a good offensive is its defense

[azure crescent]

it's amazing for attacking the head of stegos since it moves so fast

it's one of the few alt attacks not meant to be defensive

[golden coral]

@sonic needle You.. do realize that stego is still a large and tough animal. Yes, it is "fragile" compared to the others like anky and trike, and honestly, deino would not even touch them. And yes, 20-30 min sounds reasonable, and I would imagine it would take a bit longer for something as big as shant, if that's even on the menu for a utah pack. There's most likely going to be some kind of "upper limit" to what you can reasonably hunt, no matter what you play as. Or lower limit in the case of the apexes perhaps.

[azure crescent]

also its 6 headshots by deino not 8

[golden coral]

I think the comparison is a bit odd as well. Yes stego would at least be vunerable in some way, though I'd still say it's well beyond deinos prey range, but a trike, or anky? ... One is fully armored to a degree even a rex would struggle with, or should be at least, and the other will most likely see a rex and go "charge" at it. Not exactly something I imagine a deino would even attempt. And then there's shant..

[azure crescent]

^ shant isn't even armored and it's tough as fuck, the same applies for stego since most of its body is just dense enough to shrug off most attacks

[wintry mountain]

Lunging a stego and biting does wonders, but deino is meant to be this untouchable apex slayer(if you really wanna do it, two deinos can with fairly decent success)

Especially when it's grab outright secures a victory against over half of the planned roster

We have utah to deal with stegos, when pounce works ofc

Deino basically only has itself, as it has the wonderful ability to just, swim away from any threat

So stego being it's literal only bad match up right now is fine.

[sonic needle]

yeah it should be a bit Tanky but not almost invulnerable. Stegos shouldnt be able to stand in the water and go fishing for Deinos. And i mean the Head is rly rly Small compared to the rest of the Body and a bite in that little thing should probably rly hurt the Stego. I mean it would be fine if it was a 50/50 so both need 4 Hits or 6 or whatever but right now its an invulnerable walking Tank. The only enemy are other Stegos atm at least. yeah and Stego can just put its tiny head inside a tree and swings 180 degrees around itself 😄

[wintry mountain]

Deino can also just, swim away or sit at the bottom of a river and never be touched

Like don't get me wrong, I think deino and stego were horrible choices for the current roster

[dusky surge]

you literally have every choice not to fight stego as deino

deino can choose not to fight every member of the roster besides itself

[wintry mountain]

Like I said, stego being it's only bad match up is fine

When pounce worked, utah packs absolutely screwed a stego, key word being pounce working 🗿

[dusky surge]

not only having the best health and bleed pool/bleed resist in the whole damn game, it also has the best environmental defences

[golden coral]

And deino can just.. well, swim away. If you play smart as deino, the only thing you'll die to is another better/bigger deino, or outnumbered. So no different from stego there really, except that stego would be more vunerable to the rest of the things, like utah and carno, than deino is. And sure, tiny stego head, but it did have some form of armor it turns out, and even so, with how deino is designed, it seems like it's not meant to hunt larger things, unless they up the grab ability, or just go with letting it bite stuff to death I guess.

[wintry mountain]

Well, part of the deino fishing issue is the fact that you can actually see rhe outline of deino underwater too

Big bug

I'd also argue that deinos breath is a bit laughable, but other than that

Ehh?? It's easy as hell to sustain food wise, it autowins against the entire roster minus other adult deinos and adult stegos

[golden coral]

Well, if stego had a little rework on its current attacks, it could be made much harder for the stego to "fish", and even fight on land somewhat

[wintry mountain]

If rivers were well designed too

[mental field]

@desert tundra about your point with carnivores having it easy to grow is more bc they dont have a preferred food until sub adult they might need to make it so it starts as a juvie but then again it can be hard to find food early when you dont know where to look

i kinda like the idea you have to stop mixpacking but i dont think it can be something for big groups as well and it might end up messing with raptors too since they need to bleed out most stuff theyre hunting and with how long it can take it might just discourage them from hunting stegos all together

oh and the mixpack stuff would probably make it so people dont play hypsi or dryos since they rely on stego or teno protection rn

[desert tundra]

I mostly say It because every hervivore i see seeks protection on the stegos, and i say this as a Teno player myself

I get your point though

[mental field]

Yeah I like the idea bc I tend to play as a raptor and yeah I'd love to see people more separated but I also don't want some dinosaurs to be borderline unplayable

[hasty coyote]

I don’t think any mechanic that directly impacts mixpacking like that will work out well. It will always have unintended consequences. It will either allow people to abuse it, like a raptor follows a steg til it gets debuffed then the pack attacks, or it’s not impactful enough and doesn’t change anything.

[desert tundra]

DAMN now i feel bad with my commemt

Gotta delete it

[hasty coyote]

That type of mechanic has been asked for a LOT, but there’s too many issues with it.

But don’t delete it, it’s a good message to the devs that we still don’t want it

[desert tundra]

Too late

[hasty coyote]

Oh well lol

[mental field]

Yeah we just kinda have to find a good way to stop the mix packing idk how far apart stego food is from other herbis food but I think even if it wasn't close to each other they'd probably still follow the stegos

[desert tundra]

Or when you attacking a lone hervivore and some randoms from different species pop Up to defend it

Like why

[hasty coyote]

I think the opposite needs to be true, give them the same food and limit it much more. That way stegs don’t want to protect others because they will eat the stego’s food.

[mental field]

Yeah there probably isn't really a way to stop that either though

Actually that might work they'll still mixpack but it'll force the numbers down a lot

[hasty coyote]

Yeah mixpacking will likely always be a thing, the key is limiting it and creating competition, because herbivore have no reason to hurt each other atm

[desert tundra]

yeeee competition

There needs to be some kind of rivalry between them

[hasty coyote]

Dryo shares food with other herbivores atm, but it’s so small and there’s so much food that there’s no reason to kill them.

[mental field]

Yeah the only time you see herbis killing other shit is if they mixpack with a carno or if they don't trust pachys

[fresh laurel]

wasnt that when pounce was dmg over bleed?

[wintry mountain]

No

Pounce bleed decimates stego

Just pounce has to work

[placid reef]

didnt someone test and found out a solo utah could kill a stego in like 1 min or some shit if he got a full pounce or two

[slim dragon]

@limber delta Stego already takes additionnal damage on its head compared to other dinos
Pachy already takes reduced damage to the head
And I disagree with the rest, there is no real balance reason to back them up, especially deino with base damage resistance everywhere, like it isn't tanky enough already

[fresh laurel]

Dont think thats possible

[limber delta]

I am aware of the first points, I’m saying to increase the intensity of them in those cases.

Other cases: Stego has plates and keratin on its tail, and the balance reason is to dissuade attacking from poor spots and further encourage head baiting. Additionally it gives deino a better chance against it

Carno: Dissuades attacking where its charge is located and encourages attacking its leg, where small/mid tier dinos such as pachy and utah hit it most

Deino: It’s huge, it deserves to be more tanky except against its own weight class and above. And you failed to mention the weakness I gave it which would make it even more vulnerable on land, so less body stealing, overall stronger in water, weaker on land

[fresh laurel]

that would mean 4 utahs pouncing stego until half stam would just be ez claps

[placid reef]

might be teno im thinking about, its been some time

[fresh laurel]

think thats carno

[placid reef]

basically the same, 200 kg dif

[fresh laurel]

tru

also what is utah pounce dmg for a full pounce

[placid reef]

its hard damage? or like how much it bleeds?

[fresh laurel]

pure dmg

[placid reef]

i think 130

[fresh laurel]

think bleed would be a inconsistant measure

[fresh laurel]

but a full pounce one shots utah itself

[slim dragon]

Stego already takes literally 0 damage on its back plates and tail spikes
And I don't think carno deserves damage reduction on its head, sure it uses it to charge but see it as a risk/reward situation for the carno
Exposing its head but dealing massive damage

[sonic needle]

I mean even Crocs nowdays Hunt larger things. But they dont grab them at the torso. They grab them at the neck or Leg and drag them into the water.

[placid reef]

pounce bleed i just remember a 3%, every other bleed is 1%

[placid reef]

what kind of utah?

[fresh laurel]

full grown utah? we only have one utah lol

[placid reef]

utah could mean juvie, sub

[slim dragon]

And I see no reason for carno to take additionnal damage to its legs, unless you're a pachy trying to do a break, it isn't really something you can target, and even if you could, it doesn't make a lot of sense, unless carno has a second brain inside of its legs

[placid reef]

still utah

[fresh laurel]

no one uses a lower growth version of a dinosaur when talking stats normally

[placid reef]

fair, so the moment you land a pounce on a utah it just dies?

[slim dragon]

Same goes for deino's tail, it's not any more muscly or less protected than carno's or tenonto's

[fresh laurel]

it dies to a almost full pounce/pin

[placid reef]

instantly or like soon after?

[fresh laurel]

during the pin? you dont know how easy it is to kill a utah as utah with pin?

[placid reef]

havent played utah in some time, nor have i seen or fought one

havent really played the isle in some time lol

[fresh laurel]

plus you could stop pouncing/pinning early to let utah bleed out really quick

[placid reef]

but just knowing pin does insta ~130, thats like 1/3 of utahs health

[fresh laurel]

I mean this issue has been a thing since release

[placid reef]

and may do some damage over time but idk about that

[limber delta]

Utahs biting, pachys charging, tenos kicking/slamming ect

And it does make sense, carno’s legs are built for speed and damaging them can cause huge overall damage, it’s like focusing a cheetah’s legs or a bird’s wings

Plus, like deinos tail, it DOES have lots of muscle, and is internally vulnerable, especially in the blood loss aspect

[fresh laurel]

when used on other Utahs pretty sure it just does dmg over time

[placid reef]

i mean, utahs dont have much health and bleed is not kind to low health stuff, still remember before the bleed change of 3.75 a short pin from a teammate almost killed a utah

[fresh laurel]

last time I pounced a utah this update it took almsot all my stam to kill them so...

[placid reef]

interesting

[slim dragon]

I already said, deino's tail is not different from teno's or carno's. If anything, teno's tail probably has a lot more muscle and internal blood vessels. Also muscle isn't what makes something take more damage. It literally serves as armor to boars and bulls. I don't know if you have ever noticed, but cheetah's legs and bird wings are exceptionnally thin, and thus they are very susceptible to fractures. But remember raw damage is literally killing an animal through attacking a set position. I don't think carnos should be more at risk of suddedn death from having their legs bitten, same for deino's tail.

[fresh laurel]

Anyways would be cool if depending on where you latch onto something as utah that pounce bleed would differ

like pounce the ribs for bleed increase compared to the tail

[slim dragon]

And no, deino doesn't deserve to be "more tanky except against its own weight". It has no reason to be so, no justification neither balance-wise or logically-wise.

[placid reef]

i did have a few ideas to add more spice to pounce, notably a kick

[fresh laurel]

I have 2 ideas for pounce
bracing against buck
and swapping sides of your target when pouncing

pounce needs more counterplay against things and just more action instead of just hold rmb

[placid reef]

1st one i saw a few times around but 2nd, you mean if pounce the right side you could switch to the left side at the cost of more stam?

[fresh laurel]

yea

[placid reef]

hm, interesting idea

[fresh laurel]

you see your target running to a tree? swap sides

plus it would help with targets camping shallow water to make you land in water

[slim dragon]

I don't see how one would animate that
Unless utah gets some spider-like climbing abilities

[fresh laurel]

utah could do a jump motion kinda and slide down to the other side

[placid reef]

https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/401481371249541120/913858736890716211 this is the kick idea i mentioned

also another idea i had for pounce https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/423939730544132096/977654478524268674

[fresh laurel]

its possible to animate it without looking silly

[slim dragon]

That wouldn't work if the prey is moving in the slightest

[placid reef]

utah: titanoboa edition

[fresh laurel]

make animation fast and dont over think it cus its game mechanic

[placid reef]

honestly, that would be very hard as we have so many dinos all with dif widths

[fresh laurel]

that second idea sounds neat
so like pouncing a pachy's left side would make it turn more to the left?

[limber delta]

crocodilians use tails for propulsion and thus are among the most heavily muscle dense tails, and muscle dense material is very prone to blood loss and damage, unlike keratinous material, bone or even fatty material. It’s actually way more dangerous for a ripped man to be stabbed or struck hard than a fat man for this reason. Carno’s legs are also thin for its size, they are very lean and muscular with little fat to protect it. Unfortunately we can’t include locational damage beyond fractures and overall health pool, so your realism fails to apply in that regard (especially since dinos already suddenly die from leg damage lol, even the game disagrees with you)
By your logic for deino, anky should also not have this property, and should be able to be significantly damaged by tiny predators simply because the only determinable factor for that as of yet is weight.

[slim dragon]

That's the thing, I'm not ure it would be very beneficial as a game mechanic either
So it would be only useful for when someone can scrape utahs off a tree, so that mechanic would come back, but then it'd be useless since utahs can basically just move around their pounced prey like acrobats and ignore it ?

[fresh laurel]

I mean you could make it not be on dinos with spikes such as Stego or Kentro

[placid reef]

yes, cant buck, but costs more stam to pounce, so you can balance it out but they can buck, more counterplay and more interesting for a pack

[slim dragon]

You never mentioned armor
And I never mentioned realism
You decided to do irl comparisons, I gave you other ones

[fresh laurel]

true you got a point there

[placid reef]

god i hope it wouldnt have been on those lol, swish kebab

[limber delta]

My ‘comparisons’ are biological features, yours are denying game mechanics such as leg damage

[fresh laurel]

lord please make an animation where a full grown utah pouncing pachy doesnt look silly with pachy moving speed showing no pain

[slim dragon]

And you probably forgot that teno uses its tail for propulsion too, and carno literally has the thickest and most mucled tail of any dinosaur

[fresh laurel]

can we like add animations for when a utah latches onto dinosaurs?

[slim dragon]

I'm not denying game mechanics
But dinos dying from leg damage is already stupid enough to not make it happen more often

[limber delta]

Teno swims using its tail?

[placid reef]

you think its worth to post that in general feedback?

[slim dragon]

Yep, that's why it swims so fast

[fresh laurel]

hell yea

[limber delta]

It doesn’t. The animation barely has the tail moving, show me a video of a tenonto being a torpedo

[fresh laurel]

hot take
when dinosaurs get pounced by utah they slow down a bit

[slim dragon]

Do you think I have a folder of random Isle videos lying around ?

[placid reef]

based on how many utahs i'd say

bc if 1 utah slows down a stego...

[limber delta]

I have never seen a tenonto swim like a fish. This may because it is not an aquatic animal 🗿

[slim dragon]

That might be terrible for balance, a full pack of utah could already be extremely strong if pounce worked properly, imagine if it slowed down targets on top of that

[placid reef]

fair

[slim dragon]

It's water-oriented in its lifestyle

[fresh laurel]

As long as Pachy isnt running full speed while something almost as heavy as it is, is on it then its fine

[limber delta]

but it is not aquatic and hasn’t adapted its tail for millions of years to become a biological torpedo. You are literally arguing that a land based herbivorous dinosaur compares to a near fully aquatic reptile

[fresh laurel]

what are yall even arguing about?

[slim dragon]

Well, yes ? You sound kinda biased towards deinosuchus tho, I don't see what's so exceptional about it that would warrant the things you mentioned

[slim dragon]

Initially, rool's suggestion in balance feedback. Right now, who has the most muscly tail between teno and deino

[placid reef]

do you think my idea with adding a balance mechanic to pounce is too utah sided?

[fresh laurel]

I would say Deino has the more muscly tail ngl

[slim dragon]

It's purely Utah sided. It gives benefits to utahs but none to the prey. So, considering the actual strength of a working pounce, yes.

Unless it comes with nerfs to base pounce efficiency

[placid reef]

it also increases stam cost and lowers output for pounce

[fresh laurel]

I mean buck rn solves all issues lol

[placid reef]

when they are not balanced on the dino, when there are utahs equal on both sides it works like normal

[fresh laurel]

Would be funny to make your prey turn to the edge of a cliff and fall to their death as utah

[limber delta]

I argued that deino, being a crocodilian, has one of the most muscular tails in the animal kingdom due to using it as a primary tool for movement, Bubulblu then argues that tenonto, a land based animal that uses its tail as a balance and sometimes a weapon, somehow compares

[slim dragon]

So basically it would increase the skill floor and skill ceiling of Utah. I'm not sure it needs it. If the goal of your ideas is to do so, you'd have to justify why utah should require more skill to play (and why it should require more skill to play against utah)
If it's supposed to buff Utah, I would say it's just not necessary, wait for a pounce fix and see.

[placid reef]

its more an interesting addition to make pounce less boring and add more teamwork and coordination incentive

[fresh laurel]

I mean to swim as something as heavy as deino you would need some crazy tail power

[slim dragon]

Now that's a personal opinion, but I think everything in videogames should remain as simple as possible. If pounce has to be made less boring, I would rather do it through changing and adjustic current mechanics rather than adding new ones.

[fresh laurel]

I think Utah pounce could use some more things to make it feel more fun to use ngl seeing as utah is a one trick pony

[limber delta]

Additionally, crocodilians don’t use their legs to swim forward, they only use their tails for propulsion. It’s like a motor boat

[fresh laurel]

also how would you make pounce more fun without adding more things?

[fresh laurel]

Would you rather get hit by Teno tail or smacked by Deino tail? hmmm

[slim dragon]

idk, I don't play Utah a lot. And when I do, I never land my pounces. Some equalizing between bite and pounce damage could be a good start, so that Utahs could alternate instead of always going for the pounce
It should still remain the best option dps-èwise, but not the only alternative

[limber delta]

deino’s tail is so big and heavy that it can’t even lift it on land lol, but if it could, it could finally kill a stego 😂

[slim dragon]

Also, I would completely remove the bucking mechanic and base Utah's stam drain on the pounced creaturee's movement. Stego's bucking animation would be moved to its jump button, and teno... it's literally the kick anim.
So you'd have to pounce when the enemy is not moving too much as to not waste stamina

[fresh laurel]

I agree there
bite needs to be more useful instead of always making Utah rely on a situational move (situational because you need the prey to be in perfect position)
I would wait to see how Utahs do witha fixed pounce then see how improving bite works

[slim dragon]

Like Utah has a super cool and fluid alt-bite, but it's not used much because your only real option is pounce

[fresh laurel]

give utah a proper claw attack ayo?

[slim dragon]

It instakills everything smaller than you when you would need between 2 and 10 bites

[placid reef]

idk alt bite is great for dealing with multiple smaller guys

as the only alt that doesnt lock you in place

its bite might see way more use when we get more smaller tier dinos

[fresh laurel]

Utah bite has so much risk thanks to your hp with such low reward ngl

it doesnt even help keep your bleed game going that much

[slim dragon]

I don't think Utah's bite should deal a lot of damage either, but... eh balance is super finicky in this game

[fresh laurel]

if it were up to me I would make bite 75n or just increase the bleed a bit

[placid reef]

honestly, it might just need better bleed, to be used as a tool to keep its pounce bleed going

[slim dragon]

If you increase Utah bite damage it might end up murdering carnos with no possible counterplay
If you increase its bleed, it might become super oppressive to everything and terrible to play against

[fresh laurel]

tbf if a Carno is losing to Utah in bite only that Carno might need to practice

Most Carnos rn are pretty horrible and only live this long because of how easy their growth is rn lmao

[placid reef]

its bite if straight up buffed stat wise, which is ehh, shouldn't be by much as it can have unforseen outcomes

[slim dragon]

I'm talking about hypothetical balance changes, we don't know what 5N of biteforce might change
It may be way more intense than you would expect

[fresh laurel]

oh no! 5 extra damage!

now how will my Carno blitz Utah

I can see 10 and up actually changing balance

[slim dragon]

You've never seen a MOBA patchnotes have you ?
Where a 0.5% increase in a character's damage can instantly become game-breaking
The Isle isn't that extreme, but balance has to be handled carefully the same way

[azure crescent]

he isnt even comparing them, just saying that it uses its tail in the swim anim, which it does, though not as well as deino

[placid reef]

Destiny moment

[fresh laurel]

Except when you consider all the dinosaurs hp and such how exactly does 5 more damage make utah start blitzing the roster

5 more damage may just make killing smalls easier but thats really it

[slim dragon]

No, that's on large opponents that it would be the most effective
If something has 5000 health, you switch from needing 50 bites to kill it to 40
May not seem that much but on a PvP setting, it can really change everything
I'm not saying it will, but you'd never know

[fresh laurel]

Dont see how one would even be landing 50 or 40 bites without getting one shot at some point

but I see your point ig?

[placid reef]

Utahs are essentially playing Dark Souls rn, never underestimate these fuckers

[fresh laurel]

Bite just needs to be worth using more and I think increasing its bleed a tad could be a start after seeing how fixed pounce does

[fresh laurel]

[half girder]

doesnt need more bleed on its bite, pounced needs to be fixed

[fresh laurel]

Bite needs to be more rewarding
plus I just said after we see how a fixed pounce fairs lol

[half girder]

bite bleed is fine

[fresh laurel]

legit does nothing

[half girder]

it does tho?

or just use alt bite

[fresh laurel]

doesnt do meaningful bleed

[azure crescent]

just bite more than once?

ofc a single bite does very little, it's just one

once the bites stack after a while the bleed is pretty good

[fresh laurel]

the risk needed and the amount needed to stack anything meaningful is just eh

[azure crescent]

i dont find it hard to land bites on stuff unless its a teno

[azure crescent]

idk man 5 bites is already pretty damn good

[fresh laurel]

its really not unless you were pouncing heavily and at that point its really just the pounce bleed

[azure crescent]

5 utah bites deal nearly as much bleed as 2 carno bites

and 2 carno bites deal a hefty anount of bleed

also bite isnt even supposed to bleed targets out lol

[fresh laurel]

yet look at carno

[azure crescent]

bite is mainly for harassing large prey

[azure crescent]

we are not talking about carno

[fresh laurel]

just mentioning carno bleed

[azure crescent]

carno’s bite should do less bleed, but that’s not a reason to make utah bite deal a lot of bleed

[azure crescent]

i mentioned carno bites because it currently is busted and i wanted to show you the impact a few utah bites have

[fresh laurel]

again gl landing all 5 bites to a player that can time its attacks

anyways Ill do some testing to see myself

[azure crescent]

i mean if you’re not skilled enough to land 5 bites on the average isle player that’s probably not a balance issue

specially with alt bite, which is like, the third best alt attack

[fresh laurel]

Think thats more so the players you are fighting being bad

Had you seen most Carno players rn?

[azure crescent]

yeah, still not a balance issue tho lol

also biting carnos simply does not work in this patch

[fresh laurel]

wdym

[azure crescent]

you can bite tenos to death but carnos? nope

only a braindead carno would die to utah bites in this update

[fresh laurel]

How many pure bites does it take to kill teno?

[azure crescent]

on body?

[fresh laurel]

yea

[azure crescent]

well i usually go for the head but on the body its like

29

[fresh laurel]

and for the head?

[azure crescent]

on the head its 14

less than half

[fresh laurel]

how many pounces to bleed a teno?

[azure crescent]

depends on a lot of things

is the teno standing still?

[fresh laurel]

lets say Teno is being idle playing defensively

[azure crescent]

is the utah solo?

[fresh laurel]

does that really matter when the question is how many pounces?

[azure crescent]

yeah cuz if two utahs do it at the same time the bleed is like 3 times better

[fresh laurel]

oh then how many for one

[azure crescent]

probably like uh

3 or 4 full pounces

assuming teno doesnt buck n stuff

[fresh laurel]

and for 2?

[azure crescent]

if both do it at the same time they really just need to keep the teno moving for it to die