balance-feedback-discussion

[hasty coyote]

Yeah if the carno starts running, then I just keep bashing it

[frail flicker]

Fair, I'm just bad at playing carno so I usually play Utah

[hasty coyote]

And carno side should be: “well you can either try to limp it down and risk more injury, or just leave it be”

[alpine plover]

absolutely

[frail flicker]

Ye

[wise sparrow]

If pachy was solely forced to fracture and run carno would be in no real danger hunting one. And that's not what carno needs atm

[hasty coyote]

The issue is, both sides have the opposite of what they should, pachy can’t run because of tracking and the carno doesn’t have to care about the limp

[wise sparrow]

I've seen people thinking pachy should fracture and run from utah

[frail flicker]

Yikes

[hasty coyote]

Oh no, I just knock them down with an alt, then break their legs while they’re down, then they learn their lesson as I cave their skull in

[wise sparrow]

I wonder how dilo will survive the hard headed heathen

[stray venture]

I dont think it will

unless its at night or something

[hasty coyote]

*bonk “oh I gotta run NOW”

[stray venture]

how fast will dilo be

[frail flicker]

Yk, a group of 6 pachies hit me with a ram and they all kept trying to hit me again, sadly I had a leg fracture but I was able to weave around em and bite em still, I died but it was hilarious to see em miss XD

[wise sparrow]

They were either bad or the isle was showing off its amazing performance

[hasty coyote]

Yeah that another issue for me, ram is inconsistent. It can be countered by WASD and half the time just doesn’t register

I have been mid ram and a carno just taps D and I miss

[frail flicker]

I think they were just bad because atleast it wasn't lagging too much for me, but it coulda been on their end

[hasty coyote]

Here are the current ways I have seen ram just not work:
Point blank it just misses for no reason

I hit a small Dino on my side, watch them fall over, and lose stam, but they just slide away and act as if they never got hit

Phasing through carnos after hearing the hit sound and losing stam.

Phasing through the front half of carno and end up hitting its legs.

[alpine plover]

when you say slide, do you mean they do the topple animation but move away -- sliding across the ground during the animation -- as if they werent hit?

[hushed robin]

It sounds like high ping, but I might be wrong. It is the isle after all.

[verbal owl]

@solemn sequoia Thought about something similar, but there is still a problem. People can abuse that to make other player weaker (or a whole group), then kill with the rest of the team ... To avoid that, you would have to affect the whole team/specie with the one that is close range in order to make it dissuasive :/ And what about a long hunt ? they can take easily more than 5-10 min (you would have to stop that debuff timer by actively hunting the prey/defending something by hurting/biting etc.). I'm not being mean in anyway cause I really like that idea, just I can't see a mechanism that helps against mix/overpack without giving an opportunity to players to abuse it.

[half girder]

sounds about right

#balance-feedback message they should eat grass and die, why play the game as an aggressive dino? they should sit around on the dam or rock and play defense, why be aggressive even when its in their nature?

[hasty coyote]

yep

[hasty coyote]

im not sure if its ping or not, it norm happens when theres lag in a area, like a lot of bodies or people. but it also happens normally, and for everyone else it just looks like i barely missed

[alpine plover]

@mortal island skill issue

[mortal island]

I was hiding in a bush. Not attacking them. So how is that a skill issue? Even if it was, which it wasnt, a Utah can be one shot by pachy, carno, stego, and teno. What other dino can say the same.

[alpine plover]

I can agree desync/bugs invalidate Utah's existence

But in proper form, if you master the movement/acceleration mechanics. Nothing could ever hit you

You can kill Pachy's/Teno's/Stegos solo

Carno is a bit more tricky cause of stam regulating, but still doable

Utah does about maybe 1000 blood damage from a pounce once that bar is accumulated from blood loss by keeping them moving

I would be in favour of speeding up the process of blood loss somehow though. It sometimes feel too close as something akin to poison

With bucking all you gotta do is press E and the pounce is gone, not sure where the counterplay is there other than a "No" button

[hollow canyon]

Pachy actually

it gets oneshot by all those dinosaurs you've listed there

And it is a skill issue because Pachy is significantly slower than you therefore you shouldn't have allowed them to get close to you.

[hollow canyon]

idk about that

[frail bobcat]

If somebody jumps onto your side slashes you with a knife multiple times you are dead.

[hollow canyon]

Water is wet, salt is salty, it's sunny outside of my window

[frail bobcat]

Its not sunny outside my window :(

[hollow canyon]

Shall we make some more random statements that have nothing to do with what's being discussed?

[frail bobcat]

Sæd

[white cove]

@alpine plover not saying pounce isn't broken but isn't 9 uitahs taking on a single stego with 4 losses not horifically unbalanced

[half girder]

utah just needs its pounce actually fixed

[dusky surge]

Why do people all of a sudden want pachy nerfed lmao

[mental roost]

Because: eat grass and die, even if the animal is buggy and wonky in its mechanics(ram seems to be getting the most attention.)

[dusky surge]

I've heard people say its alt-bite and ram should be nerfed on seperate occasions

like my man, it's really not that strong

[fresh laurel]

Think when desync and fps issues are improved on that pachy wont be seen as op to people since improving those would make dodging and hitboxes seem better and easier

[half girder]

i find it hard to play pachy with desync and shit lol

full charge just to miss even though i hit on my screen

minus like 10% stam

carno is the only dino that works rn lmao

[hollow canyon]

Tbh I don't think it is all that unbalanced. Stego is probably the worst apex for Utahs to engage and I think they should expect at least such losses while trying to take on apexes.

[old hull]

i dont think most players issue with stego hunts as raptor is the fact that stego can destroy you the second you make 1 little mistake , its more the pounce being so unreliable that its a gamble whenever you attack a stego , regardless of how good of a utah you try to be sometimes the game will just say fuck you go back to the select screen

not even just stego either , teno and carno fights can feel the same its just with those 2 you can usually survive 1 hit and live so the dumb game screwing you over stings less

[somber sphinx]

They need to nerf stegos blood pool, fix pounce and make it so that utah dosen’t take 2 years to get back up

[hollow canyon]

It's just so baffling seeing comments about how Pachy should be nerfed and buffed one right after another

[slim dragon]

Because devs are carnivore biased
Except when they are herbivore biased

[dusky surge]

thats a very nothing statement

also what does this have to do with devs

[slim dragon]

That's what a lot of people complain about
They either say devs have always been carnivore-biased, or they have always been herbivore-biased

[hollow canyon]

The devs are neither, they just sometimes don't necessarily foresee the consequences of their actions and swing the pendulum either one thing or the other too much.

[slim dragon]

Yeah I know that very well
I was being sarcastic

[hollow canyon]

I know you were, but multiple people nevertheless claim it one way or the other

[hollow canyon]

@pure veldt My guy, there's a 6 hour slowmode in that channel, you aren't sending that message, you'd better edit the previous one.

[pure veldt]

hold on a sec

ty btw

[hollow canyon]

You're welcome

[pure veldt]

done

please look at that

[white cove]

hard fkn agree

I get that I need to put in effort and not make mistakes to kill a stego without dying, sure thing

I'll bait the swing and avoid the turns

but pouncing then just hanging in mid air awkwardly is just

[old hull]

pretty much , why bother trying to improve at hunting a stego when you will almost guarantee bug out your pounce atleast once during the hunt , and once is all it needs to get you killed

also people are asking for pachy nerfs again?? pachy is barely viable as it is , nerf it more and it might as well be a dryo

[twin oar]

@desert tundra I said pretty much the exact same thing a few days ago & it was heavily downvoted, the people on this discord can't make their minds up 😂

[hollow canyon]

"Utah" and "hours of growth" don't go in the same sentence.

[twin oar]

vs Utah they're super viable.

[old hull]

eh i would still rather be the utah in that fight , you are faster more agile and you only have to hit it with a pounce once and the pachy is history

[hollow canyon]

not true

[twin oar]

try landing that once pounce though how it is. Pachy have a 360 instant super stun

that'll do more damage than a single carno bite to a Utah.

[old hull]

i have many times , its not that difficult

[hollow canyon]

People need to stop saying that Pachy dies from a single pounce, it's just not true

I've lived through 3 pounces and still won the fight

[twin oar]

Its Pachy players way of saying its fine vs Utah xD

[hollow canyon]

its pachy players way of saying they have no idea how to pachy

or more so - they have no idea how to vs Utah

[twin oar]

My only problem with Pachy is that alt attack, remove the stun & its fine vs Utah.

[azure crescent]

what about my idea? it would mainly be for large targets and it would promote coordination for utah players

[old hull]

well its also hard to say for sure how many pounces will kill anything since it depends on how much they move around after being pounced

so your average pachy wont survive much more then 1 pounce

[azure crescent]

pachy vs utah is supposed to be more pachy sided, and its supposed to make all of the pachys attacks VERY punishing for the utah

[half girder]

pachy is anti utah

[hollow canyon]

Pachy would be heavily disadvantaged vs Utah if you removed that stun

[old hull]

yeah i dont see the problem with pachys alt , it eats up a decent chunk of stam and its range is really small , utah can easily just avoid it

[half girder]

supposed to counter it

[twin oar]

standing still holding alt waiting to left click is abit too much anti Utah though.

[azure crescent]

^ its supposed to be countering utah

[hollow canyon]

...unless we increase the damage of Pachy's alt while removing the stun

[half girder]

bait the alt bite and pounce or cry about it

[old hull]

then just wait till the dumb spammer runs out of stam , it dont take long since pachys stam is shite

[azure crescent]

that's literally the point
it's supposed to be a utah's nemesis
also just use altbite and dont go for pounces a lot

[half girder]

the stun is fine its ur fault u got hit

cry about it

[azure crescent]

just keep getting hits out of it and let it waste stam

then its pretty fucking vulnerable because shitty bite

[twin oar]

the stun does more damage than a carnos bite. "cry about it" how old are we? xD

[half girder]

people also crying utah miss penalty

[old hull]

and even if you get hit by pachys alt , you will survive through majority of the time

[half girder]

ffs this community cant understand balance

my carni isnt op wtfff wtfff

[azure crescent]

islecord when they get punished for doing something the wrong way (it's clearly unbalanced)

[hollow canyon]

tbh, I was one of the main people who have argued to introduce this penalty but idk if it's necessary atm. Utah was much stronger back then

[half girder]

they need to optimize the damn game

[old hull]

well they all came from years of legacy where you need 0 skill and are spoonfed till adult on every carnivore , naturally they are all lazy whinny lil shits lol

[twin oar]

yes you'll survive it mostly, but with less hp than a carnos bite will do.

[azure crescent]

bro its a a 500 kg animal throwing itself with its 23 cm thick skull first towards you

[twin oar]

instantly, in a 360 radius

[azure crescent]

and? just fucking play better, it's on you for getting punished

[azure crescent]

actually a full 360 degree alt headbutt isn't that fast

only like slightly faster than carno alt bite i think

[old hull]

its not even instant , it has a pretty predictable windup

[half girder]

its not, makes it easier to land a pounce

tbh

[azure crescent]

yeah its only instant if its facing forwards

[twin oar]

the alt attack has a windup?

[half girder]

yes

[azure crescent]

when facing 90 degrees or more it has quite the noticeable one yes

[old hull]

sorta , its not click and deal dmg theres a delay between starting the attack and actually connecting

[twin oar]

if it does its like 0.5sec, annimation will take longer than you can react

[old hull]

of all the things that ive struggled to fight pachy with , utah was never one of them in my experience

[half girder]

i often bully pachys

[old hull]

same in reverse , im always more concerned about good utahs (once a blue moon) then carnos

[half girder]

get behind them and nibble their tail, bait the alt bite and pounce

[azure crescent]

yeah dont go to far from a pachy if its alt attacking so you get time to go for a bite

alt bite is the way for killing pachy because it is good and has better damage than normal bite

[half girder]

the little stop before the initial pounce is annoying, i feel that really screws utah over, the flow needs work

[old hull]

my way to take out pachy as utah was a simple get the jump in , pounce it and then wait it out till they die , get a bite in here and there not much to it

your average pachy will start panicking pretty quick after they get pounced

[azure crescent]

pounce should have momentum to it

[half girder]

game is just very clunky rn

[azure crescent]

i love seeing when players start getting the black screen and just try to go crazy and attack everything

[old hull]

yuuuup

[hollow canyon]

funny thing is - that didn't use to be a thing, they've introduced that for... whatever ungodly reason

[old hull]

it used to be even worse , now you keep a lil momentum going into it , back then you completely stopped and then pounced

which made pouncing moving targets a nightmare xD

[hasty coyote]

I think we can all agree that pachy and utah are just buggy atm, fix their main bugs and they should be better if not fine in combat

[fresh laurel]

Would ruin realism kinda...

[twin oar]

double the damage & remove the stun, would be more balanced imo

If they hit you with an alt attack as utah, they get another 3-4 free hits on you whilst you're stunned aswel as the teno they're probably mixpacking with.

It's easy to avoid the alt attack yea, but ONE mistake as Utah shouldnt be so punishing, when other dinos can afford to make so many mistakes all the time.

[fresh laurel]

ngl Utah stam usage seems a bit much for running...

[versed rune]

@half girder please explain your reasoning sir

[mint rain]

Utah is trash. Game decides my pounce doesn't work and I lose a little bit over an hour of my life. Even when it does work I have to blow my stamina. After that I dismount and since they took away Utah's ability to run right after I get frozen in place right next to whatever I pounced. The icing on the cake however is I then get hit with a single move by any other of the main roster and I'm either dead or stunned forever.

[wise sparrow]

Welcome to the isle

[mint rain]

my favorite is " well utah is stronger in packs" like yea so is everything else in the game

4-5 pachys vs 8-9 utahs and my money is on pachy all day

[wise sparrow]

Depends on who's ability breaks the most

[mint rain]

hahaha

[wise sparrow]

Will the utah's pounce send them to the backrooms?

Or will the pachy's ram decide it just doesn't feel like it?

[versed rune]

i dont even bother with utah rn because of how crap it is

[mint rain]

I've played basically only utah since day 1 it's all I know

[versed rune]

utah's supposed "prey item" teno can literally clean 1 shot him with kick, and carno's turn is too tight for its own good so utah can hardly weave around him

it's wacky

[mint rain]

Bring back u2/u3 utah, when it actually felt like I did something

[versed rune]

update 3 utah was a bit much, 130 bite damage was wild

id advocate for 500 health utah, 80 bite damage, remove pounce delay

then buff pachy up to 600 hp to compensate

[mint rain]

I dont even mind the delay on a miss pounce, I need the acceleration back on dismount

[versed rune]

yeah dismount is still crap even after it was sped up

it freezes you for a good second

[mint rain]

just let me run right after again

[golden coral]

it's just a roster issue when it comes to utah at this point, that and pounce having its usual issues

[versed rune]

yeah doesnt exactly help when there's no hadrosaurs to hunt

[wise sparrow]

Honestly hadrosaurs wouldn't be the easiest hunt for utahs

[golden coral]

Hadrosaur, ceratopsid, sufficiently big and open, would help so much

[wise sparrow]

If they get trample utahs will have a tough time

ceratopsids however are just begging to be bullied by utah

[golden coral]

If they can juke a carno, (and at least people say they can), then I'm sure they can avoid being trampled relatively easy

But yeah, as long as said hadrosaur and ceratopsid is on the bigger side, it'd be good targets

[wise sparrow]

I just hope hadros aren't walking lunch boxes

[golden coral]

Well no, not saying they should be, but I do think at least some of utahs issues comes less from stats or even mechanics, bugs aside, but the fact that almost all of the roster is "anti utah" in design

[versed rune]

this is a real hot take, but i think maia should have a shorter growth time than teno. maybe as long as utah, about an hour. encourage large herds of them and use them as a "get strong quick" option that can deal knockdown damage, but lack the power to go on outright murdering sprees.

[golden coral]

And well, dryos aren't that common.. :p

I could see it honestly, depends a bit on how big maia gets, but teno has more interesting options, if we get more semiaquatic parts of its life and it is absolutely more designed to fight well, or should be.

[versed rune]

so basically if you play maia or any similar size hadros, its essentially signing up for low commitment and a lot of confrontation with a variety of predators

[golden coral]

So yeah, maia could be a rather "quick and easy" option, especially if it is socially oriented

Good animal for people that enjoy those bigger herds and just wants to stick together, and is bigger and more impressive than being a dryo or such :p

[versed rune]

yeah, even tho teno is significantly smaller, since it's a fighter i feel that it would warrant a longer growth time than maia, since teno should just inherently deal more damage than maia

[golden coral]

Hadros do have that potential of getting bigger groups without becoming impossible to touch, unlike ceratopsids that can potentially be very tough to take on if they get enough numbers

[versed rune]

as for para, just follow the same trend as maia except stronger + longer growth, cuz bigger, but still not a huge time commitment

[wise sparrow]

As much as I fanboy over hadros I do admit that they will likely be a big supporting factor to the food chain for lots of predators. However they should not be easy prey in any capacity considering most of them provide quite a feast

[versed rune]

the problem with legacy hadros is that the time commitment was so long, so it discouraged people from playing them, especially since legacy hadros are food trucks

[wise sparrow]

Maia should be the most flight oriented of the hadros

[versed rune]

it made their populations super rare

[wise sparrow]

shant should be primarily fight, and para should be a good middle ground

As for cory, fuck him.

[golden coral]

Is cory still a thing? :p

I vaguely remember a model that I think was that critter..

[versed rune]

thats why i think maia and para should have incredibly quick grow times relative to their size. 1: create herds, 2: provide prey items

[golden coral]

I could see para be a bit slower, but then I do want something fancy with it sounds as mechanic so there is that

[versed rune]

and the low growth = less worry about death, and just grow another within an hour or so.

[golden coral]

It also works since I'm pretty sure most people expect herds of those animals, which lends itself well to being able to be around a lot

[wise sparrow]

Basically
Maia: easy grow, flees most encounters.
Para: easy growth compared to it's tier. fights solo mid tiers like allo and alberto and runs from packs of them while trampling those who pursue
Shant: Fuck everything in my general vicinity

[versed rune]

yeah. i just hate this mentality of "its bigger, therefore its more of a bitch to grow." generally speaking that rule is fine but it just doesnt work for prey items

[golden coral]

Growth should perhaps be less about size and more about ability in game, and in general less about time and more about difficulty really

And of course the ever lasting issue of making growth fun at that :p

[wise sparrow]

I made a suggestion about growth in general feedback, is that a good example of what you mean?

[versed rune]

me on my way to afk grow my 764th carno surivving solely off the goat spawns at south

[golden coral]

Sounds so very fun :p

[versed rune]

big problem with growth is that they made subadults so terrible that there's absolutely no reason to run around the map as them and try to play

a 95% carno is NOTICABLY worse than a 100% carno stat wise

[wise sparrow]

Growth is less of a challenge and more of a luck of the draw for lots of animals

[half girder]

carno is op rn. simple.

doesnt need more dmg, most of that comes from ram, one ram is a kill for small game.

its turning is absurd with its turn rate plus the accel in speed, it can easily come to a stop and still have great mobility which is insane

carno is suuuuuper easy to grow as well

[versed rune]

which matchups is carno OP in

[half girder]

pachy teno utah

[versed rune]

i agree with the utah one. the only issue there on carno's end is carno turns too well. the rest of the issues are utah. if pachy is affected at all, it's also because of carno's crazy good turn. otherwise pachy vs carno is fine. as for teno, teno's attack damage values literally make no sense currently, and he doesnt have enough stam to attack effectively. that's not a carno issue

the only true issue with carno right now is its sprint turn which i acknowledged in my balance post

[wise sparrow]

Teno vs carno 1v1 is fine, aside from the questionable hitboxes.
However teno has fucking amnesia and cant walk 3 steps without being exhausted so against any more than 1 teno ccan't fight nor run. Which is honestly more of a teno problem

Utah is fucked in every way shape and form due to funni pounce bugs and latency

Pachy got absolutely gutted and while herds can function in some capacity, solos are fucked because of poor turning and, once again, questionable hitboxes

I find it funny that every other animal gets screwed over by hitboxes and carno benefits from it like crazy

[half girder]

goes both ways for pachy and utah

[wise sparrow]

wdym both ways?

[half girder]

bugs

[wise sparrow]

ah

[golden coral]

Where do tenos tend to die to carnos, most often? What part of the map, if any of you have a clue?

[wise sparrow]

Anywhere with enough room for carno to charge, which isn't much

It also happens to be the only types of places half of teno's diet spawns

[golden coral]

Hm.. even around the swamps? I figured most of the issues would come from up NW

[versed rune]

lol most tenos that die to carno are at NW cuz they try to camp that stupid rock then get fucked

[wise sparrow]

I loathe that rock with every fiber of my being

It was funny as fuck when I grew a stego, walked up there, and just vibe checked everyone on it.

[versed rune]

also pachy is in a spectacular place rn. anyone who says carno craps on it is just lying. a solo pachy can cripple a carno and GTFO and multiple pachys have no issue taking out idiot carnos, as they should be able to

[versed rune]

based

[wise sparrow]

"a solo pachy can cripple a carno and GTFO" tracking system go brrrrrrrrrrrrr

[hasty coyote]

solo pachy cant just break and run, you just get tracked down easily, and thats if you can even get a break

[wise sparrow]

Pachy casually having the worst trot of the non apexes

[versed rune]

i mean personally ive been playing pachy more recently and had little issue. plus that's not a carno problem, thats a BS tracking system problem

[wise sparrow]

Also legbreak healing while walking go brrrr

[hasty coyote]

break a leg, they are the same speed now but pachy has less stam. break ribs, you have to hope the carno runs out of stam before you do and you're able to juke it enough. Break a skull, carno just spam bites anyways and runs you outta stam

[wise sparrow]

Pachy has like 2 issues but they end up destroying the whole animal

[hasty coyote]

i just made a post that explains my opinions on the matchup, if you disagree with any of it tell me

[hasty coyote]

i like mountain goat pachy and getting on rocks, but that one rock in particular is not good for the game at all

[golden coral]

Can pachy crouch and avoid tracking that way, or does that no longer work?

[wise sparrow]

Honestly I'd also give pachy a far better trot. It needs to run so much to get anywhere that extra running stam might not do much

[hasty coyote]

bleed

[wise sparrow]

One base of the tail bite from carno has pachy bleedin like a mothafucka

[hasty coyote]

and crouch might as well be sitting its so slow

[hasty coyote]

thats another good option

[versed rune]

oh that's another carno issue actually. too much bleed and not enough raw power

[hasty coyote]

it has enough raw power, just nerf the bleed

[half girder]

ye

[golden coral]

Yeah, pachy needs a better trot. And carno might need to do less bleed yes. Tracking just needs a rework, though at least bleed isn't quite as much of a gps line as tracks, or is it?

[wise sparrow]

Thing is if carno has too much raw power, utah and pachy will feel even more like paper Mache

[hasty coyote]

oh it is, ill bring up a clip that makes me HATE it

[golden coral]

I never really got into pachy, I tested the trot, realized I had to go between swamp and harbor, and went "no thanks.."

[half girder]

it is lmao

[wise sparrow]

Carno was honestly the worst choice for the current roster

[golden coral]

Since I prefer to save my stam for you know, fighting or running, and not traveling. So I made all of two trips back and forth and then gave up.

So I have very little experience with pachy

[half girder]

pachy is just.. maan idk

[golden coral]

Alright, please do! Been a while since I had to run with bleed, but then I also play stego, so you know, running isn't really on my mind :p

[half girder]

stego player poggers

[versed rune]

200 bite carno and 300 damage charge, buff pachy hp to 600 and utah to 500

[golden coral]

Should go be a teno more often, now there's a well designed critter!

@versed runeI know you prefer to buff everything rather than nerf, I'd like to add, look to teno for being a well designed animal and fun to play and fight as and all, and give everyone else the same treatment!

[wise sparrow]

I'm tempted to grow a teno but the fact that if a single carno megapack forms im dead really makes me hesatate

[hasty coyote]

THIS https://youtu.be/XkiDgZ4NEp4?t=120

granted, these carnos were smart and the herbies were not the best, but that tracking is busted

[golden coral]

I'd still say the footprints are worse than the bleed, with the extra fancy glow and "wall hack"

But I'd also like to compare one vs the other, which we can't since they come together.. :p

[hasty coyote]

plus they can track WHILE SPRINTING

[versed rune]

only real issues with teno right now are that his kick is too strong, tail slam is too weak, and he has much too little stam to attack efficiently. tires much too easily

[golden coral]

Trotting, right, not sprinting?

[hasty coyote]

watch, they were sprinting

[half girder]

yes we were sprinting

[hasty coyote]

they trotted for 1-2 secs, then just ran it down

[golden coral]

Eh, I get what they're going for when they changed the kick and tail, even if I think the goal to combo those two are not the best, since I don't feel it works well together. But my point was more so that teno is a well designed animal overall, and it's fun to fight as and so on. So even if the tailslam might need less stam drain, and so on, I think it's a good critter to look for in general for what makes a fun playable.

[half girder]

yeah playing teno was so fun but the stam on the thing is ass

[golden coral]

Ah, right. I'm too tired to think clearly, but yeah, sniff then run of course. Sorry! And yeah, maybe tracking should be less reliable the faster you go or something.

[hasty coyote]

personally, its pretty good atm from what I have heard and seen, just reduce the tail slam stam

[golden coral]

So if you want to track carefully, you'd walk more, if you are very confident, you can run and risk making a mistake or something.

And yeah, teno seems fine, the issues I've seen mostly is the slam costing a bit too much, and the kick hitbox being iffy

[hasty coyote]

or what I would do, make the prints disappear if you start sprinting. and just remove the cones that point directly at the dino

[versed rune]

yea i def agree

[golden coral]

I'm not sure on the goal to make slam and kick work together, but if that's what they want to do.. :p

[hasty coyote]

slam: good range, moderate damage, and higher stam
kick: short range, good damage, lower stam, and bleed

so slam is better as a start up for claws or for slamming utahs
while kick is good for dps against carnos

[golden coral]

Yeah, but I think they sort of want you to first use slam, then kick, which feels a bit awkward due to the range. If you use slam with the range, you need to turn around to get within kick range, and if you wait, then you might as well just kick since it also stuns, last I know at least.

While comboing slam + claw works a bit better since you turn with the claw swipe and then just attacks in front. At least it feels a bit more natural than running up to turn and then kick.

[hasty coyote]

i dont think they are supposed to be used in conjunction, they are for different situations. tail slam is a good start up for claws or to kill smalls. But kick is better for doing high dps against things chasing it like a carno

but I could be wrong, I'm just basing it off of what I have seen and mildly done as teno

[golden coral]

Possible, I could have been misreading what people meant, but I'm sure I've at least seen a few people say that they'd liked both to be used, just one after the other. Personally I agree with you, they are better on their own and for different situations, at least more often than not.

[hasty coyote]

you can definitely slam then go for a kick, its just not as efficient as just clawing them.

[keen plover]

Carno doesn't need a damage buff in any category. Nor does it need a movement nerf. All it needs is a tracking and bleed damage nerf. With 'buffs' to other playables. As well as all playables taking longer to heal fractures while moving.

Teno is an almost perfect playable for what it is imo. It just needs the obvious tailslam cost reduced.

[tranquil pawn]

@alpine plover your comment is quite daft. everyone can clearly see you are a carno main who wants carno to be an op apex.

1. Carno irl was not as fast as it is generally portrayed in games so it did not "evolve" to be fast and hit like a truck but it is a game it fills a niche that is good and viable.
2. The turning radius for an especially fast creature does not make sense and is very stupid, and anyways the turning radius is super unbalanced, also carno is the fastest creature in the whole game and I think it will remain being the fastest as that is its nieche, utah, pachy and teno are slower than it.
3. ok this is fair enough, large creature = large blood pool but atm its abysmally large even for its size and weight, especially considering its the animal that fills the "fast" niche.
4. so overall hitboxes are cursed and bad so carno being able to hit much farther than the creature actually is could be due to lag but that needs to be fixed in any case.
5. you are right here, the stamina is good for the niche it has and isn't too much, it depletes a good amount considering the charge and run are the fastest movement in the game.
   6.By this the person means it can bite stupidly fast when he says there is no cooldown, and he's right, the biting speed of carno is so stupid and dumb that there isn't even a use for the charge when you can spam bite and deal massive damage with no particular skill.
   7.you're right there again, carno was and should be a small game hunter that can also take down larger creatures like stegos if it has skill and such but what this person is getting at is that because carno atm is so op it should have larger things on its diet or make it an actual fair fight for the creatures that are on its diet.
6. not really no unless there is a rock or forest nearby, and even then a carno can still traverse a forest perfectly fine and they will just wait for you to come down from the rock for food or smth.

[old hull]

its funny how the realism bs is used to excuse carnos speed and dmg output but then they completely ignore how carno irl could not do any sharp turns at all without falling over

its almost like they dont actually care about whats accurate or not and just use them as excuses to fit their narrative

[alpine plover]

Let's just forget realism for now

I can kinda agree that the current Carno is just fine, other than tweaks to tracking/bleed/hitbox and juvie growth

The competition needs adjustment too

[old hull]

or forget it entirely , because i have no doubt in my mind the devs do not give a damn about whats accurate or not , the dinos in this game are just classes to be played , they get the stats they get based on what role they are supposed to fill

thus why magy irl is a useless midget , the devs want something else so they changed magy to suit their needs

[alpine plover]

Well ofc

Irl Utah would be extinct within days

[old hull]

irl about 90% of the roster would share that fate too

but we aint doing that because this is a videogame

[alpine plover]

Then let's get on with the point

Realism being moot has been discussed ad nauseum

[old hull]

its also really confusing how unlike most other games , when you talk about balance most cant accept that the playables are just classes in a videogame and not animals

like the amount of people asking for dryo to get more dmg or better attacks , dude its class is a low tier herbivore who runs away and hides from all threats and thats it

if you dont like that playstyle then just pick something that can fight , dont see me picking deinosuchus and complaining that i cant run down a tenonto

they pretend its not but their point is really im a selfish child who wants my favorite dino to do all the things!

you dont pick a healer in overwatch and then complain its not good at killing the enemy lol

[alpine plover]

What point do you have contention with?

[old hull]

the dumb suggestions i keep seeing like give dryo more bite force or new attacks , or give utah better swim speed

suggestions that make 0 sence given the intended use of the dino class they picked

[dusky surge]

yea, those suggestions are always dumb

[old hull]

do agree with what you said about carno tho , as much as i hate the damn thing a curbstomp nerf is not whats needed

just some small tweaks here and there

except the buffing its bite thing , with how fast and easy to spam it still is im not a fan of that idea unless it was added alongside something like slowing down their attack speed so punish spam or having a stam cost

[dusky surge]

yea, i dislike the whole "make carno unable to fucking walk 10 feet without being stricken by breathing problems" style suggestions some people have

[old hull]

true tho i can understand why so many feel that way , carno has been a plague since it was added and so many months after it gets pretty infuriating

to this day my biggest gripe with carnos kit is that unlike the rest of the roster , it doesnt fully rely on its gimmick as its primary attack and has 175 very easy to land and highly spamable dmg source at its disposal at all times

and yeah the charge is very useful , but unlike utah or teno if you neglect use the gimmick you can still kill most of your prey items , try only using left click on utah or teno and your either gonna die to take about a year to kill anything

[dusky surge]

im not exactly upset by an animal not relying on its gimmick

[alpine plover]

I think he's saying that there's a correlation between playables being based around specialized mechanics being simply outclassed by a more simple general playable

Both the need of skill ceiling, or method process of employing the special ability is unneeded for Carno, yet it's power remains. As it is unnecessary for it's viability

[dusky surge]

true, but i feel the issue is that carno fails to have a specialised weakness to compliment its specialised strengths. It's not only a decent generalist but has powerful specialist abilities, such as its great speed

[alpine plover]

While in contrast, the opposite is true

[dusky surge]

the inability to track well at all would be a decent weakness

[alpine plover]

I wouldn't say so imo

[dusky surge]

Why not? It compliments carno's intended gameplay well

[alpine plover]

Maybe only in the case of just running off in jungles completely disengaging, which would help in that situation as a weakness.

[dusky surge]

Also helps with hiding in bushes

[alpine plover]

Hm

Looking at it, the specializations help the other playables "punch up" which garner very interesting playable mechanics. Making small tiers pretty much the most mechanically indepth out of every possible creature in the roster.

I'm concerned about how the more "Generalist" playables power creep the roster though. As for the sake of tweaking balance, it'd suck to compensate the specialized abilities to higher degrees

Such as losing a Teno to a Utah pouncing less than a second

To circumvent this, it'd might be more appropriate to have future mid tiers possibly be more specialized in mechanics. Not looking to Carno as an example for the rest.

[native berry]

@hasty coyote you can cancel pachy ram by looking down and releasing right click, its really fast and easy to do 😉

[keen plover]

Any examples for that

[alpine plover]

Cerato's possible defensive ability. It'd being able to defend/lockdown areas stationery at the threat of consequence or damage.
If implemented, it'd support Cerato's bully playstyle without making it slow Allo chow, while not running around mowing other playables down with insane damage to compensate

[keen plover]

Yeah seems likely from what we've seen

[alpine plover]

Allo is rumored to have a grapple ability
Alberto..??

You get the trend here, it's likely in the best interest of the game's balance to move away from generalist approaches to creatures

Maybe except for Apexes in that regard, have the mechanics not designed for "niches" but outfitted to combat other Apexes
Considering there's not much to explore for hunting given the absurd stats of them

[placid reef]

hey at least its better thna dryo

[placid reef]

nah i'd wager even Apexes are not that generalist, each having their own thing going on

[alpine plover]

For hunting?

[placid reef]

yea

well spino is a bit hard to say rn with the limited knowledge

but a good guess can be acquired

[alpine plover]

They’d all have general trends of high damage, high health, cumbersome mobility in one way or another. Rex needs one bite to land and 90% of the small to mid tier roster is gone. Doesn’t need additional special mechanics to aid it in that

What’s left are other Apex sized creatures. Gigas, Spinos, Deinos, Stegos, Trikes, Shants, other Rexes

It’ll need some mechanics to deal with those specific creatures and vice versa

[placid reef]

yet rex is slow but hits like a truck and has good endurance, whatever it can catch is its game, giga is more agile, weaker but can fight in less direct manners via bleed or reliance on another giga... and spino... spino seems like it doesnt know whar it wants to be

thats what i was going for

ofc stat wise they will all have the same similarity

[alpine plover]

True, but they’re all tied together in the trend of high health/damage. Notice how all of their mobility will be restricted

[placid reef]

then somewhere into this sucho, alberto and acro will come into play... somehow...

[alpine plover]

Even besides that. Rex is gonna need mechanics to combat other Apexes regardless. With locational hitboxes, it’ll be nigh impossible for a Rex to kill a Trike. Therefore Rex needs help in that regard.

[placid reef]

true

maybe some grapple mechanic but thats streching it

but i'd really see rex going way more for shants and gigas for trikes

[alpine plover]

You think so? I think with current bleed. Gigas are going to have a terrible time with hunting Trikes

[placid reef]

perhaps, havent played like att all in soem time so not sure how currently values are

taken it more logically from a theory standpoint

[alpine plover]

With locational hitboxes, they’ll get worse trades, have to move more often, Trike can be more stationary. Possibly have more hp/blood pool to spare

Trike could possibly take on 3 Gigas at bay

It might be necessary to rework how Apexes combat each other to level the playing field

Essentially create mechanics specifically for dealing amongst each other. At a kaiju battle esque approach

[alpine plover]

i dont wanna carno to be an OP apex. i personally think it’s balanced the way it is rn.

and i like how you changed the word stupid to daft

@dusky surge i completely agree with ur feedback

i actually like that idea a lot and thats a rework that i can get behind.

[dusky surge]

im glad sigma carno agrees with my carno feedback

[alpine plover]

im jus saying cuz ppl think im biased cuz of my name

[wispy kite]

You said that Uthas can outrun Carnos and that Pachys are too op for your Carno. It’s not just your name.

[alpine plover]

never said utahs could outrun them bro. they can outturn and use their agility to escape.

and pachys are kinda broke atm

[wispy kite]

I just used the search function to find your comment. It’s still there.

[wispy kite]

Just because they can counter a Carno, meanwhile one pounce by a Utha and it bleeds out.

[hasty coyote]

I know and I do it, I just got character limited so I couldn’t say “rather than staring at the floor and back up” plus. I think a left click cancel is just easier

[unborn iris]

I feel like with fixed pounce and bonk, the utah and pachy are doing pretty good, maybe some tweaks on the leg breaks.. either seems like impossible to get like the previous update or you are breaking legs every time, like right now.
Wavepoole/mr cerato pretty much nails the carno's needed adjustments.
And Teno feels pretty good right now. I honestly think with less stam usage on the tail slam, like has been previously suggested, it would be a little busted.

[dusky surge]

@alpine plover with all due respect that stego looks like its limping lmao

id rather our current anim

also pretty surprised that people actually agree with my take on not actually nerfing carn stats lmao

since people have been begging for nerfs for ages

[unborn iris]

People will always beg for nerfs. Easier than learning and practicing how to counter things.

A lot of people don't realize playing something is the best way to learn how to counter it, as well.

[dusky surge]

i dont even play much carno or stego, i just know game design principles and that you cant solve every issue by nerfing it till it doesnt exist

[hasty coyote]

If they buff pachy to be able to trade speed for mobility, then I’m fine with carno. But the fact that carno can sidestep after I released my ram and I miss then be able to tail ride is annoying.

[unborn iris]

Wait.. balance around you missing your ram?

[dusky surge]

i mean... for some reason people are suddenly saying pachy is OP

despite it absolutely not being OP

[unborn iris]

Right now, the bonk has almost as many issues as the pounce.

[dusky surge]

I do reckon that pachy SHOULD be punished for missing, but I also think it needs to be rewarded more for actually hitting

make it fucking hurt

[hasty coyote]

If I miss then I miss, but I literally already released the ram dead on, then they teleport 2 feet left and I miss. My main issue is that they can tail ride after the fact, even if I get them off I don’t have enough time to turn and ram.

[unborn iris]

I like the idea that pachy needs situational awareness. If you get caught out you can die very easily. If you miss a ram in the open, you can easily die. On the same hand, if you catch a carno not paying attention you can end him pretty easily with a leg break.

[hasty coyote]

Before the ram nerfs I used to be able to 180 ram a carno behind me, now I have to shake them off and hope I hit and the game doesn’t just say “nah”

[unborn iris]

And since the recent patch, I haven't had as much issues juking carnos as either pachy or utah.

I don't know if they reverted turn buffs or just bite radius. But something changed.

Juke until you can get in a bush or forest.

You shouldn't just be brawling carnos in the open.

[hasty coyote]

They changed the ram hitbox, so it prioritizes legs rather than ribs

[unborn iris]

Yeah, I could tell that one. You definitely get leg breaks easier now.

[hasty coyote]

It’s sooo much better now. But I still have the issue of a speed demon with bad agility tail riding a prey an entire weight class below

[alpine plover]

well if i said that i didn’t mean it lol

[alpine plover]

pachys are OP bc they can stun things 3x the size of them when they are babies and their charge without any ramp up time whatsoever. the ram also doesn’t take hardly any stamina unless you actually carry out the headbutt.

[placid reef]

but where is muh big numbers going down change yadayadaya...

[azure crescent]

bruh you can literally facetank pachies as carno because of stun immunity

[dusky surge]

pachies are not OP

[azure crescent]

^

they’re not awful but they could be in a far better position

[alpine plover]

theres no way ur serious

u literally cant

[dusky surge]

how do you not know this

pachies are very easy to hunt and kill as carno

[solemn sequoia]

Aren’t pachy like 2 bites for carno to kill?

[dusky surge]

3 but yes very easy

[alpine plover]

bro its not 3💀

dont lie

[dusky surge]

what is 175 times 3

[alpine plover]

literally takes more than 3 bro

[dusky surge]

175 times 3 is 525

[alpine plover]

sure the math says 3 but its not

dude ive never killed a pachy in 3 bites unless i charged them

[dusky surge]

pachy has 500 HP

[alpine plover]

yea ik

[dusky surge]

therefore it takes 3 bites

because carno does 175 damage

[alpine plover]

yeah no shit. but for some ungodly reason, pachys take more than 3 bites.

[dusky surge]

if you want to kill a pachy in 3 bites probably should aim for the body instead of the head or tail, since those areas take reduced damage for a pachy

[alpine plover]

yeah ik but still

[dusky surge]

so the issue isn't pachy takes more than 3 bites, it's that you're biting the wrong areas.

[alpine plover]

yea lemme land a perfect body shot every bite

[dusky surge]

Also what's one extra bite matter?

[alpine plover]

ive bit a pachy 7 times before😐

[dusky surge]

Carno can bite for days, there's no stam cost or penalty to movement

literally how

[alpine plover]

dont ask me ask the devs

[dusky surge]

you'd have to literally bite it on the tail tip repeatedly

[alpine plover]

well i didn’t

so idk. desync and lag prolly.

[dusky surge]

so how is pachy OP if your problem is caused by lag and desync, which are entirely disconnected from balance

[azure crescent]

you just go for the head and tail LOL just get better and go for bodyshots

[alpine plover]

🤓

[azure crescent]

“ive never killed a pachy without hunting them the right way”🤓

[hasty coyote]

the first 2 things are just bugs, a baby carno can break a pachy's ribs with the charge and ram interaction but that doesnt make carno babies op. The last one isnt op at all, pachies already have terrible stam and lose even more stam from actually landing the headbutt.

[azure crescent]

carno mains when pachy can defend itself and isnt a walking buffet

[dusky surge]

i like how somehow we've gone from "pachy is underpowered and carno is OP" to "carno is fine and pachy is OP" within a single update

despite no changes to these animals

[azure crescent]

either way nerfing is not the way

[placid reef]

If you expected anything less from The Isle idk what to tell you

[hasty coyote]

I have gone to Carno is fineish and pachy needs help

[alpine plover]

💀

[azure crescent]

i wish carno got the drift nerfed like in original 4.5 bug

[hasty coyote]

the main thing i need nerfed is tracking and maybe carno turn, but buffing pachy's turn in exchange for speed instead is preferable. Like standing still/walking makes you not get the turn speed nerf

[hasty coyote]

that was an interesting time, didnt get to use it much, but it was interesting

[azure crescent]

carno mains irl when they walk up to a pachy and it doesnt just let them kill it for free

[hasty coyote]

plus, idk where yall think pachy is op from, they can break your legs, yes, but you're still nearly as fast and can dodge them because of the delay in ram and position makes you teleport 2 feet to the side instantly for the pachy. also, a single pachy does not even have enough stam to kill a carno, 2 have a much higher chance, but at that point it evens out because those 2 pachies have more total hours growing than the carno

[dusky surge]

carno mains when a herbivore fails to eat grass and die

[azure crescent]

so true

[dusky surge]

like dude, i understand your name is sigma carno, but the legit fact that you GENUINELY believe pachy is overpowered is absurd lmao

[azure crescent]

Imagine failing to kill a pachy as carno in 4.75

[placid reef]

man the topic to balance has changed a lot in these few months but glad the spirits' the same as always lmao

[dusky surge]

lmao true

if pachy really was OP, you'd see a LOT more of them in servers. Carno def is the overtuned one atm, not pachy

[placid reef]

haven't looked that much in the server so idefk what has changed but at least it feels like home still

[hasty coyote]

I understand liking carno and not wanting it nerfed, I dont want the game to just be nerfing everything until they feel terrible to play. But thinking pachy is op while the carno to pachy ratio is like 5:1 is absurd

[dusky surge]

*carno to pachy ratio

[hasty coyote]

u right 1 sec lol

[placid reef]

god TI really is like D2 but in dino form, especially for balancing

[alpine plover]

cringey asf

[hasty coyote]

its just that they take too long to balance out major issues, if they did a balance + bug fix patch every month people wouldnt be as heated and the game would be a lot more balanced

[azure crescent]

lol thats your only reply

[alpine plover]

and urs is saying i want pachys to be free food.

[dusky surge]

(you kinda do)

[hasty coyote]

then what do you want pachies to be?

[placid reef]

fair point, but i have learned from Destiny that even with that there will never be peace for such communities

[azure crescent]

i mean you’re complaining that they’re not free food

[placid reef]

there will always be something new to complain about

[alpine plover]

who?

[hasty coyote]

probably not, but there would be less

[azure crescent]

you

[alpine plover]

asked. stfu dumbass.

[hasty coyote]

lmao i knew it

[azure crescent]

you

[alpine plover]

🤓

[azure crescent]

you irl

imagine losing to something a third of your size as literally the most powerful animal and land carni in the game as of now

[hasty coyote]

imagine not having a valid argument and instead relying on just being toxic. If you have a good reason to nerf pachies, then I would listen, but the main issues you have brought up are either not issues or just bugs

[dusky surge]

i really like when people don't make arguments and instead use overused memes because they don't want to prove their point and just want to exhaust the other guy

favourite part about the internet 100%

[alpine plover]

you irl

[placid reef]

the internet ever since social media has been created lol

[hasty coyote]

lmao the watermark

[alpine plover]

i can send the full vid

[dusky surge]

sigma carno, with all due respect, you've given us literally zero reason to believe that pachy is OP, nor have you given any sort of indication of how you'd change pachy WITHOUT it being free food, you've just kind of thrown out half-assed insults to anyone who mildly disagrees with you

[placid reef]

when i see someone start using memes and not giving any points i just leave knowing i won the argument

[alpine plover]

ok

[azure crescent]

exactly what a carno player would say

[alpine plover]

thats a good one

[azure crescent]

🤓

[hasty coyote]

nah, id rather hear an actual reason for why pachy is op that isnt a bug or not an issue

[alpine plover]

the thing can literally break my leg from a stand still. no momentum required. thats dumb.

[azure crescent]

and how much dmg does it do?

[alpine plover]

it fucking breaks my leg you dumb cunt

[hasty coyote]

thats the point of the move though?

[dusky surge]

im legit baffled lmao

[alpine plover]

theres no momentum behind it

how tf can that break bones

[hasty coyote]

he literally jumps forward during the animation, there is momentum

[dusky surge]

It's launching its fucking skull at you with all the force in its body what???

[placid reef]

and whats stopping you from biting? you are more than 3 times its size

[hasty coyote]

balance and its cool

[alpine plover]

the fact that i just got headbutted💀

[hasty coyote]

what else is a pachy supposed to to?

other than be a fat dryo

[azure crescent]

tap charge does like no dmg and fractures, while a hold charge does actual damage

it’s throwing its full body weight right into you with its 23 cm thick skull

[alpine plover]

have momentum behind its rams?

[placid reef]

it broke your leg not you godamn mouth

[dusky surge]

so if a pachy isn't running around 24/7 it loses the fight

[azure crescent]

have you ever seen the animation

[dusky surge]

also it does have momentum legit just look at the anim

[azure crescent]

its literally throwing itself at you

[hasty coyote]

it does, it throws its body forward, but you said pachies shouldnt break, if they cant break then what are they supposed to do?

[dusky surge]

have you ever actually played pachy

[alpine plover]

its abt balance not the animation

[dusky surge]

??????

[alpine plover]

yes

its easy asf

[azure crescent]

but it literally has momentum

[alpine plover]

not rlly

[dusky surge]

this man is living in the fucking phantom zone

[alpine plover]

bet

[azure crescent]

and its already mechanically dine, the more you hold it the more dmg and fracture

[azure crescent]

bro the anim has momentum, it moves forward and throws itself

that is momentum

[hasty coyote]

how so? when is a pachy ever standing still around a carno? We already get a worse turn from holding the charge, so i dont see an issue here

[placid reef]

https://tenor.com/view/twilight-zone-formula-clock-eye-ball-gif-14367278

[azure crescent]

ah yes, a pachy not being able to defend itself, perfect balance

[dusky surge]

remember kids

eat grass and die

[alpine plover]

ur literally exaggerating my words bro💀

[dusky surge]

okay how does the pachy defend itself against a carno if it needs a fully charged running ram every time in order to stun/break a carno's bone

[alpine plover]

doesn’t need to be fully charged

just needs a lil run up imo

[hasty coyote]

even then, I want to know what is the impact of a leg break? you run slightly slower than a pachy now, but a single pachy cant kill a carno, they dont have enough stam

[dusky surge]

So running tap ram is fine but fully charged standing ram isn't

for some reason

[alpine plover]

they’re almost always in packs. theres never just one.

[dusky surge]

(because they're trash solo but yea)

[alpine plover]

yeah exactly

hes talking like their solo dinos

they’re*

[dusky surge]

wow its almost like the herd animal having herds makes them better

[hasty coyote]

thats a bug currently, and the little run up is it raising its head like a goat. they have the same momentum with the charge whether they used it standing or sprinting.

[dusky surge]

you realise you can just run the fuck away from a pachy herd if you see one, right?

you are a carno

[placid reef]

its almost like you cant just punch your way out of everything

[hasty coyote]

because they cant survive solo, and thats the issue I have. unless you got like 5 pachies, you cant survive.

[dusky surge]

and hes gone

BET HE CALLED ME A SLUR LMAOOO

[placid reef]

welp...

[dusky surge]

i got a ping and he's gone

[placid reef]

and there goes the circle of life in the Islecord

[hasty coyote]

well im going to say one last thing and hope he reads it, if not then I dont care, but I need to make this said

[covert cave]

That guy got laid out lmao

[dusky surge]

he did

[covert cave]

Was lurking this whole time

[dusky surge]

apparently my point about running away from the animal that's slower than you is stupid

[alpine plover]

I was just watching all of it, entertaining lmao

[placid reef]

no no no, you dont get it, thats not neuron activation

https://tenor.com/view/monkey-monke-neuron-activation-neuron-activation-gif-20850506

[dusky surge]

he didnt explain how it's stupid but he did indeed inform me that it was stupid

im assuming he would say something like either
A: Why should I run away from a pachy, I'm a carno
B: I can't run away with a leg break
C: Pachys can hide

In which case
A: Because you're outnumbered and they're slower than you, and you don't automatically win a fight due to being a carnivore
B: Don't get to the point where you have a broken leg
C: Stop walking near areas where entire fucking herds of pachys can hide easily for an ambush

[azure crescent]

LOL dude got sent to the shadow realm

[alpine plover]

Got reduced to atoms

[placid reef]

not yet, Repdex is gonna see to that lmao

[alpine plover]

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-infinity-war-avengers-gif-20036370

[placid reef]

he's charging up the BFG 10000

[dusky surge]

already dead but gotta burn that corpse

[placid reef]

gotta delete every molecule like its the zombie virus or some shit

[hasty coyote]

EVERY dino needs to be viable solo in some capacity If a dino isnt viable solo, then less people to play it since they NEED to find a herd, which means smaller herds, which means less people play, and this just compounds constantly. I dont mean "they should be able win a 1v1 to the death" with literally every dino, but they should have an option. "Cant run? fight. Cant fight? Run." that is the general balance of this game. At the moment, a solo pachy has to Fight to break a bone on a carno, then Run. its a fun playstyle, but it doesnt work currently because A its hard to break a bone. B bone breaks are not impactful enough. C you cant run after the fact. So currently, a solo pachy has to be like 5x better than the carno and the carno needs to make mistakes for the pachy to be able to run, but if the pachy makes a single mistake it dies. It should not be an easy fight for the pachy, it should be more like a 50/50 for pachy breaks and runs or carno kills. So pachy can not survive alone currently because its main strategy doesnt work.
One thing I also hate is that "just herd up" mentality doesnt work, carnis can do the same thing. If you need 3 of a herbie to survive a single carnivore, then why dont those people all go carnivore and make a massive swarm instead? and thats exactly what we see with carno currently. So you should be scared of herbie herds, especially pachies, they will kill you if they break your leg.

[alpine plover]

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-infinity-gauntlet-snap-finger-snap-gif-12502580

[hasty coyote]

great memes for the name lol

[half girder]

yeah, would be nice if solo pachy was viable

[native berry]

I am getting so sick of the just herd up comments, people tend to play more carnivores then herbivores so even if you go in a group of 20 pachies its just a matter of time you are fighting a pack of 20 carnos. This comment only works when less people play carnivore then herbivore but because how they designed diets and other stuff most player play carnivores so herding up is only a counter argument if you find a way to balance the population and that's only possible by making the experience of carnivores worse then herbivores

[hasty coyote]

Even then, oasis had lots of carnos still around. Most people enjoy large carnivores or just carnivores in general. So there will always be a lot of carnivores, generally the same or more than herbivores. Then, if you force herbivore to herd up, then they are just gonna mix pack and mega pack, so we have the oasis problem again.

If you see a herd, you should generally back off unless you have a pack, not just try to pick one off and die, then complain that herds are too strong.

[native berry]

even then you can wait and sneak around until 1 slanders from the pack

[hasty coyote]

That’s why I said generally, if you manage to see one slacking, then you can try, but if you die it’s your fault

[placid reef]

would be nice if most of the roster would be viable

[half girder]

some are

[dusky surge]

are most?

[spare badger]

There are like, almost 30 playables that could probably be cut and not many would care

[half girder]

if they weren't going as big as they want rn the game would be done in like 3 years

going AAA as an indie company

game will never be done, unless they go smaller

[placid reef]

Game already is AAA level

which already is impresive enough

well... for the most part

[dusky surge]

@alpine plover honestly that seems really cool and somewhat interesting. I wouldn't even be opposed to having it have a greater stam drain and more speed as long as the button is held, for ambushes

[alpine plover]

The epiphany hit last night

Stego was on a slight lopsided hill

[dusky surge]

Also, having a custom anim means people will know your intentions

[alpine plover]

Whole ass pack of Utahs were just sitting there

I watched as they could do nothing

Thought "huh, pounce doesn't really work on hills or terrain don't it?"

[dusky surge]

Honestly it does seem interesting and would fit utah well for both ambush and pursuit

[alpine plover]

Aside for the higher skilled players

It'd make Utah more of a proper threat to the majority of the playerbase in the current ecosystem

For an average Teno or Pachy, Utah in numbers of 2-4 would actually be a bit more scary

[placid reef]

@alpine plover i think i had a very similar idea a long time ago, but i do like the telegraphy you added for charged

[dusky surge]

it's also not just an outright stat buff, it actually makes it more mechanically interesting and capable

[alpine plover]

Ofc, for sake of reliability, you risk the opportunity for counterplay

While for the leap, you risk outright death quick for more unpredictable pounces

[dusky surge]

i actually really do like this

[alpine plover]

Yeah, instead of waiting about to punish a missed pounce, you'd might have to be looking more intently for Utah's in closer vicinity, making them more alike the intelligent unpredictable-sporadic creatures they're portrayed as

High skilled players can still kill them like fodder, but the added element adds some nerve to the encounters

Hunts would look more natural too, similar to wolf/lions hunting

You wouldn't have to be as sweaty as me or QA to play Utah too lol

Since right now, it's pretty much an obsolete pick to most players.

[tranquil pawn]

@fallen vale Perfectly agree, also love your vids, I think I remember watching one of your vids when you faced a whole utah pack against another streamer and they kept using baby utahs to reopen your bleed wounds, anyways yeah that is a large problem with the current spawn system.

[fallen vale]

Thanks! Yes I always edit out many parts of the fight. That one particular fight actually lasted around 20+ minutes and the video is like 5 mins long. There was A LOT of baby utahs spamming and the pachy managed to escape the big ones and got baby utah spammed to death for like 5 mins as he was low on everything

[tranquil pawn]

interesting

sounds epic

but also oof

[fallen vale]

Sometimes that one bleed refresh means life and death as you fall under the 50% and start not regening your stamina properly. It also means big utahs don't need to take risks to keep bleed on. Or burning your stam to get them off can end up costing your life. Their pounce also can cancel important life saving actions

It's overall a complete 100% built-in game mechanic that is there for Grieffing only

[tranquil pawn]

its almost brutal how salty players can completely screw you over when you used skill to take them down

[stable quest]

Can agree, I had broken my leg as a teno and was in a pretty bad spot and how do I almost die? One adult utah and 2 spam pouncing babies coming back to keep my bleed going because the game allows them to.

[frail bobcat]

I think many players just want the person dead after they got killed

No matter how dirty the tactics are

I am new and everytime i get killed i am looking where my mistake was and i nearly always find it

[hasty coyote]

Yep, people want revenge and there’s nothing we can do to stop them from being mad. So we have to just not allow them to cause more damage

[frail bobcat]

But sometimes you cant do anything about your death

[stable quest]

Yep

[hasty coyote]

Getting run down by 5 carnos as a pachy is not fun

[stable quest]

I got chased by 2 or 3 pachys and a carno as my teno

Talk about overkill lmaoo

[frail bobcat]

Nah this is natural selection, you did a clearly do something wrong

[hasty coyote]

Pachies teaming with a carno? Ewwww.

[frail bobcat]

They should bonk each other

Not bonk things together

[stable quest]

Yeah happened the other day, I got one of the pachys because they just happened to run through a bush I was hiding in trying to look for me so I came up behind them and kicked them to death

[frail bobcat]

Get them mixpackers

[hasty coyote]

At least you got one of them

[stable quest]

I honestly shouldve just ran when I had the chance the pachys were kinda messing me up haha in used to fighting utahs and carnos

The carno got me though so I dont feel too bad about my death

[hasty coyote]

Personally, I play on a unofficial server where mixpacking is common because I like the chaos, but mixpacking on official is aids

[frail bobcat]

I dont know tho why mixpacking is so big, everybody hates it and it still exists. I never saw a mixpacker in chats

[stable quest]

Yeah I play on tje zoo sometimes just to relax cuz it's free grows who doesnt want free grows, and mix packing isnt hurting anyone but official servers is just annoying

[hasty coyote]

Same server I play on lol.

[stable quest]

I havent played in a bit tho official is just better for me, no 12 packs of carnos on there like the zoo

[hasty coyote]

Because a lot of the mixpackers are friends or are other people who like mixpacking, so they just kinda clump up at certain spots easily. The people who hate mixpacking are generally mad about it and come here to yell about it.

[stable quest]

Mixpacking is okay in certain situations like free grows, ur gonna come back in an hour or 2 so why cry about it? But if ur growing on official and die to mixpacking its understandable

[frail bobcat]

Its understandable if your friend likes to play carno and you like teno, you still want to play together

[hasty coyote]

Yeah mixpacking on official is not right, unofficial it’s fine if everyone there is chill about it.

[frail bobcat]

But its shit on official where people want to have the dinosaur feeling

[stable quest]

Official is just a guessing game at this point tho I've been finding a lot of cannibals or mixpackers idk who to trust

[frail bobcat]

And not "Fuck i cant attack this dryo as a utah because it has three teno and two carnos by its side"

[hasty coyote]

People just starting to get bored, so they want to fight new things, and a lot of the normal players are leaving til next update

[keen plover]

Yeah lack of content

[stable quest]

^

[frail bobcat]

I think the new update will bring more joy to the game

[stable quest]

Yeah I feel like I need something to do besides growing and fighting

I like doing that but not many other options

[dusky surge]

honestly, as much as i hate the "add mor dinos 4 game 2 be good!!!" mindset, i do hope they do follow up on what they said they'd do and start throwing in a few new additions to the roster as time goes on

adding a new animal means new interactions, hunting, surviving and so on

pachy simply existing literally changed the whole-ass game you cannot deny this

[hasty coyote]

If we only get troodon by update 7, this game is likely going to lose a lot of players

[frail bobcat]

With actual cool abilities and stuff that makes sense (not looking to magy)

[dusky surge]

they said they'd add a few animals in-between now and troodon

[dusky surge]

oi, magy is just as valid as everyone else

[keen plover]

Hopefully cera and galli

[stable quest]

Better watch the bushes..

[frail bobcat]

Its nothing compared to its real life counter part, the biggest predator on there island was a PTEROSAUR

[dusky surge]

cera was deconfirmed for update 5 iirc

[frail bobcat]

Its just weird

[dusky surge]

my brother in christ i literally do not care i still want magy

[keen plover]

Punch said nothing will come in update 5. Maybe update 5.5 or 6

iirc

[hasty coyote]

I can’t wait for cerato to be in the knock down weight of pachy

[keen plover]

Knockdown weight needs to be reduced to like 800kg or something lol

[dusky surge]

never

[keen plover]

[hasty coyote]

Yeah I’d say 1 ton to 750kg should be max

[dusky surge]

y'all pussies

[hasty coyote]

But it’s 1.5 tons atm

[dusky surge]

i fully accept the king of knockdown

its EXTREMELY funny

[hasty coyote]

Oh I definitely will, I’d love to completely body cera. But I want ceras to bash lol

[keen plover]

Not fun to receive though. Although I love to do it as pachy

[frail bobcat]

And if you are 1,5 tons heavy and get rammed by a thing that is 1 ton heavy, that shit hurts

[dusky surge]

okay but is it not amazing to see a fresh-adult carno get fucking slaughtered by a roided up skull junky

[stable quest]

Lmfaoo

[keen plover]

It is

[dusky surge]

its 500kg

[hasty coyote]

Pachy isn’t a ton, it’s 450

[frail bobcat]

Bruh

[keen plover]

500kg

[hasty coyote]

Or is raptor 450?

[keen plover]

450kg utah

[frail bobcat]

Then it makes not so much sense

[dusky surge]

Raptor 450kg

[hasty coyote]

Ah, close enough

[dusky surge]

More importantly how long you out here thinking pachy a whole-ass ton

[frail bobcat]

THEN WHY DOES IT NOT FALL DOWN WHEN A UTAH POUNCES IT?

It makes no sense

[dusky surge]

Pachy has 50kg

[stable quest]

Pachys r kinda scary now they're like 30% babies can come out of no where and break ur leg at full adult

[dusky surge]

therefor it wins

[hasty coyote]

It’s 50 kg more, utah can only pounce same size and smaller

[stable quest]

No ones safe

[frail bobcat]

I dont say pin

I saw at least let it fall over ir something

But come on

[hasty coyote]

That’s just pin and literally just ruins the matchup

[frail bobcat]

Then at least slow it down

[hasty coyote]

It already stops ram

And uses stam to buck, and does massive bleed

[frail bobcat]

Oh yeah sorry i forgot, a pounce is a basic one shot for the pachy, is it?

[hasty coyote]

A utah pounce is almost as good as a pachy ram.

[hasty coyote]

If you buck, it takes like 1/4 of your bleed

[frail bobcat]

K

[hasty coyote]

And then you have to run around and chase the raptor or it just nips you with pachy’s terrible bleed heal

[frail bobcat]

But when you buck i think you cant run, or how does this work?

[hasty coyote]

You can still run, bucking just costs stam

[frail bobcat]

K

[hasty coyote]

I have had 3 main fights with utahs, if they land a pounce it’s basically a death sentence

[frail bobcat]

And if you land a ram they are dead

Or what

[hasty coyote]

Depends on the break you get, if it’s a leg break they die because you outrun them. Anything else and they have to run away.

I norm alt swing and break them while they’re down

Instantly ends the fight

[frail bobcat]

So a body and head break just bans them from the fight if there is a pack of em

So pachy and utah have a balanced match up or what?

[hasty coyote]

Basically, they can tank 2 rams and live. Ribs cripples their stam so they can’t chase or pounce, and head break cripples their damage

[hasty coyote]

Currently it’s pretty good, pachy has the advantage, but not by much. A good utah can kill a mediocre pachy. But it’s basically a bug contest, whoever has less bugs happen to their main abilities win lol

[keen plover]

Even then, land an alt attack to knock them down and just fracture them. Or aim for the head after ramming to kill them

[hasty coyote]

Pounce decides to miss, free ram. Ram decides to miss, free bite and wastes stam.

[keen plover]

Keep alt attacking on the head after a charge and they'll die

[hasty coyote]

That’s generally what I try to do

[keen plover]

Pretty much, if a good pachy has you down once- you're dead

[hasty coyote]

Well, the issue is landing the ram first, I norm just go for alt into ram since it’s more consistent

Plus, I generally don’t care for fully killing the raptor if I don’t have to, hitting the ram is good enough for me lol

[keen plover]

Fair, I just like ending them so they don't multiply later

[thin mantle]

@analog mirage I’m actually baffled by how controversial your feedback post is, it’s undeniable that Carno easily has the agility to dance around a teno and the damage to contend, especially with how it lacks tenos conditions of having its damage hitboxes placed behind it or stationary when attacking.
Your change doesn’t even make it impossible for carnos to kill tenos, the main change is that they can’t approve the fight as they would as a Utah, which is kinda what they do now, or at least what they’re capable of doing.
That’s one of the primary factors causing Carno to be generic and boring to me, it’s far too versatile, which is hilarious as it’s meant to be one of the most specialized specialists stat wise of all the critters. But anyway that’s just my brief two cents on the matter.

[analog mirage]

Yeah one big issue with Carno is it’s able to choose its fights and control a good chunk of said fight which is a bad idea for the literal fastest creature

I already knew some people wouldn’t like it as they think Carno is fine for what it is.

[frail bobcat]

Carno wont be as dominant when cera gets added

[analog mirage]

How?

[golden coral]

That however, does not make carno more fun, or interesting, to play as

Which I believe was at least in part Saltys point

[analog mirage]

Compared to how Carno functions rn things like Dilo and Bary will have a bigger stakes and different ways they need to approach fights, they won’t always have one sided fights against others and.

Carno on the other hand rn is to put it simple “run, bite, repeat” and doesn’t really have any uniqueness in the way it’ll fight or face opponents.

[dusky surge]

i agree, but not for the reason you probably think. I actually think the only reason carno won't be as dominant is that it'll be another land predator to play. Literally, the act of adding another land predator will weaken carno's chokehold by giving players more avenues to try out their carnivore playstyle without automatically jumping to carno

[analog mirage]

Yea. It’ll spread out carnivore players so it’s not all just Carno

[dusky surge]

frankly im quite excited for cerato simply because I'd like a more diverse ecosystem. One thing I hope for is for certain animals to be added, then a niche, low-played dinosaur suddenly finds it's got a hefty advantage against the new guy, so people start playing it to fuck with the newbie

[analog mirage]

But basically the reason I made those changes is so you simply can’t run in all guns blazing and hit like a truck.
If you do with my changes it’ll most definitely lose a fight.

Make it rely on a good ambush to get a ram and bites in while encouraging more skilled players to not run in since they know how to exploit the creature to how it was never intended to play

[slim dragon]

With cerato I might finally be able to play a land predator without feeling useless or cringe

[dusky surge]

I don't like it personally, I just dislike the idea of nerfing stats again for no reason, especially since current carno feels legit fun. I'm still all for nerfing juvi buffs, tracking and bleed before nerfing things like turn

[analog mirage]

I also raised the stamina for Carno because it allows for players to feel like they can run for a while without needing to stop every 10 seconds

It’s better for the whole “fast paced gameplay” while balancing out the worse turning

[dusky surge]

personally also not a fan of increased stam for carno, idk

[analog mirage]

I just don’t feel that fast paced gameplay when I have to stop for my stamina all the time

[dusky surge]

it already has one of the best resting stam regens in the game

[analog mirage]

I’m not complaint about that. It’s that it runs out way too quick

[dusky surge]

I disagree, I think it works fine how it is tbh

It's a burst sprinter

The best way currently to escape a carno is to out-endure it

Take that away and we're fucked

[analog mirage]

It’s fine for now yes, however in the future who will really wanna play that when there’s more interesting options like Allo or Alberto, even Bary

Just becomes more generic and less interesting in terms of gameplay

[dusky surge]

its literally the fastest animal

idk how thats generic

it quite literally has the title of "fastest animal"

[analog mirage]

I think for people (like me) who want fast paced gameplay, sure they want it to be the fastest. But they also wanna enjoy the time of sprinting and feel they can go everywhere. Which is why a lot of people liked Legacy Carno

Some people didn’t like it cause they felt it wasn’t very strong and wasn’t worth playing. While others simply played it because of how fast and good it felt to sprint

[dusky surge]

also i still dislike this new concept of "carno HAS to be as mechanically in-depth and skill-based as animals like utah and teno!"

No it doesn't. Not every single animal needs to do some crazy shit all the time to be a good playable. Sometimes, being fast, charging faster and biting hard is all you need for a fun time. Some animals in nature are basic as fuck. Carno is that animal. Let it be that animal. It's a simple beast for people who just want to run and bite, having it do some crazy shit that doesn't fit it to meet some skill-quota does nothing but make carno weirder and clunkier

[dusky surge]

legacy carno literally spent an hour regenning stam lmao i'd rather this

[analog mirage]

That’s not the point

[dusky surge]

i quite literally had an entire debate with a friend playing legacy carno while we waited for our stam to regen

we watched night turn to day and our stam still wasn't full

[analog mirage]

You could say the same for how I don’t wanna play a fast animal when I can barely have time to be fast

[dusky surge]

i dont want to play a fast animal and spend literally over 10 minutes sitting my ass still and watching nothing happen

[analog mirage]

Sounds like a personal opinion

[dusky surge]

I run fast, I tire fast, I rest fast, I run fast

Speed is key in all facets of my existence

[analog mirage]

I never said it needed a long ass stam regen. Obviously it would be balanced to not be super long but not be quick like we have rn

Legacy “balance” is irrelevant. I’m merely talking of the perspective of how the creature felt

[dusky surge]

okay but why tho, carno doesnt need to be an endurance predator when it has a move to instantly knock down and kill a small opponent

its quite literally built perfectly for ambushing and killing within the first 10 seconds

[analog mirage]

I think a pursuit hunter who goes after things like Utah, Gali, Dilo, anything smaller than it and trying to hit a ram in a fast paced pursuit while also dealing with a turn that allows for some sense of challenge is much more interesting than sitting in a bush waiting for something to come by so I can ram it

However it should rely on ambushes against larger prey

[dusky surge]

the ram is quite literally useless in a pursuit unless your target is dumb

especially against smalls

it is entirely countered by simply stepping to the sides of the charge's trajectory

[analog mirage]

Instead of spam biting in a pursuit, you have to land one ram to knock them over and end the pursuit instead of “ I’ll get lucky, bite you then wait for you to bleed out or get more bites”

[analog mirage]

That’s the challenge of hunting. It shouldn’t always be easy I run up and ram you win for me

[dusky surge]

i really dont think carno is, or should be, a pursuit predator

i always liked the whole "tire it out" way of dealing with it

[analog mirage]

Then we agree to disagree. We both have our visions of how we wanna play Carno and that’s fine

[dusky surge]

carno is more like an adrenaline predator, and the prey should feel the adrenaline rush and try its damnedest to get the fucker off its back and tire it out

[golden coral]

... isn't that what pursuit is all about?

[analog mirage]

Yes

My point

[dusky surge]

a pursuit predator means its VERY hard to tire out or does not tire easily

[golden coral]

No

Thats endurance, or persistance

[analog mirage]

Have you ever watched a car chase

[analog mirage]

Alberto

Endurance hunter

[dusky surge]

why alberto lmao

[analog mirage]

Why not

Brawler/endurance hunter

Slower but harder to get off you

[keen plover]

I don't see the issue with carno 'brawling' a teno- which even then, a good teno can still beat on you. It's like the only playable in that size range it can brawl anyway.

Diablo and Kentro won't allow carno to brawl it

[analog mirage]

Idk, we will see as more playables come in ig

[keen plover]

Carnos main issue is that it's so common. We just need roster additions. Apart from that, it should keep its movements since this is an enjoyable carno

[analog mirage]

Depends who you ask ig. Some people prefer this Carno while other like legacy Carno

[keen plover]

legacy carno?

[analog mirage]

The pursuit hunter

[keen plover]

Only thing that made it good was no collision, bleed stacking and godly stam. Everything else was garbage

[analog mirage]

Definitely Wasn’t perfect, but had a good feel

[keen plover]

It turned like shit though

Horrible creature

[golden coral]

To be fair, legacy carno could run for pretty long, not really a well made pursuit hunter either, and it also had the whole bad turn radius which doesnt mesh well with hunting the usually more agile smaller critters :p

[analog mirage]

Felt better when you had to pursuit prey and didn’t just run it and bite

[keen plover]

You still ran and bit. It just took 20 billion years to actually land a hit on a semi competent player. Feel like that's the reason it had so much stam lol

It was still as mindless as now

[analog mirage]

Yeah. It was fun for some, not for others

I just feel Carno might be a bit overshadowed from others in the future

[keen plover]

I mean yeah. Depends how long it takes to grow larger mid tiers. If most players are diablo, kentros, maias, allos etc. Idk how well carno will fair outside of eating AI and dunking on utahs

Although kentro and diablo are smaller*

but are hard carno counters

[analog mirage]

A larger roster will most definitely help out Carno so we wait I guess

[keen plover]

I see it as the opposite

[thin mantle]

Still wish carno wasn't so generically versatile...

[analog mirage]

It’ll help Carno figure out it’s place I guess. And see if it needs changes or not

[keen plover]

The thing is to that

[thin mantle]

?

[analog mirage]

You mean how it’s able to turn so quickly

When standing at least

[keen plover]

Teno is, if we're being real, a 'fleshy' target. It doesn't have any armour to it- so a carno should be able to brawl it. Imo anyway. Diablo and Kentro will likely just dunk on a brawling carno

That's like the only herbi in that size range that carno can brawl anyway. (idk about magy)

[analog mirage]

Magys it’s own shitshow

I can see Carno being careful but going after Maia. Depending what size we get

[thin mantle]

Well it's a combination of:
Highest Speed
Competent Stationary Defense via alt bite and it's standing turn
Good bleed
High Damage
High comparative HP when considering the ratio of it's other stats

Teno being a fleshy target shouldn't be the deciding factor in carno's ability to brawl it, I'm not even talking about it's ability to do so or not, just how competent it is, which rn is far too high

[analog mirage]

Just make the standing/walking turn worse, change its bleed value. Maybe that’ll help

[keen plover]

Bleed value change on carno and teno stamina cost on slams should be enough imo. I'd even argue giving teno light fractures on kicks whenever severity is a thing

Same with carno charge

[analog mirage]

Idk why kick doesn’t do slight fracture……. Oh wait it’s cause scaled fractures don’t exist

[thin mantle]

I'm also coming to realize how clunky teno's damage balance is between it's two main attacks.... kick is an incredibly silly main damage dealer when it can't be used in tandem with slam, you can't follow up a slam with more than 1 kick 90% of the time, the investment just isn't worth it when you can get off 3-4 slams and deal even more damage than you would've if you attempted a reposition

[analog mirage]

Kick should be made used to make larger targets not be able to come after you as well (with lighter fractures) and Tailslam to stun creatures with a heavy attack. Probably used for smaller things like Dilo or Utah

[keen plover]

I'd honestly give slam a reduced cost, increase the cost of kicks and give them fractures (light to medium??) so that a follow up would deter carnos from engaging for a while and limit their ability to brawl you

Idk if that's a good thing though lol

[analog mirage]

That sounds fine

[thin mantle]

I generally discourage adding fractures to most animals.... I'm perhaps fine with it, although I'd render the fracturing a slam only thing to compensate for the high bleed of kick...
I'd want to see it tested, I wanna see how that is to play

Not sure how I feel about it but I wouldn't mind seeing it implemented for evaluation

[analog mirage]

Fractures shouldn’t go to everything. However most hadrosaurs maybe outside Maia should deal fractures

Teno, para, shant, Pachyrhino, Pachy, Anky, Deino, Rex are the main things I see having fractures

[keen plover]

I feel like fractures should be common. Yeah some things deal insane fracture damage (pachy, rex, alberto) but some things should deal less

[analog mirage]

Alberto, ehhh it doesn’t really need them but sure

[old hull]

carnivores with fractures just gives me legacy ptsd , not a fan of that idea

[keen plover]

Like an allo chasing a para and gets kicked? light fractures to reduce speed by 10-15% idk something like that

[analog mirage]

Only Deino and Rex.

[old hull]

deino? why

[keen plover]

I mean, I expect alberto to have it in some capacity

[analog mirage]

Look at it, it’s literally a giant crocadile. That thing lunges you, your legs are broken

[old hull]

but if it lunges you , you get drowned

[analog mirage]

Also helps it fend off against stegos, and ensure death with things it can drown

[keen plover]

But then that leads to deinos brawling things rather than drowning

[old hull]

i dont think fractures would affect their fight with stego at all , since stego doesnt need to move

just keep swinging

[analog mirage]

If a deino fractured the head maybe

[old hull]

even if head fractures completly blinded stego , you know where the croc is they cant exactly maneuver

just swing and it will die

[analog mirage]

However deino players can’t brawl on land anyways due to water drain and VERY POOR turn

[keen plover]

It would change the matchup a decent amount and since it has fractures, it could get the stegos leg

[analog mirage]

Like I said, meant to more fend them off not win them fights

[keen plover]

It would probs be deino favoured actually

which sounds stupid since it shouldn't brawl on land

[old hull]

seems pointless then , when does deino have to fend off a stego

you either jump out and attack one , or you dont fight it at all

[analog mirage]

When they come to drink and defend every single Herbi drinking

[old hull]

well in that case you either choose to risk it and lunge , or cut your losses and dont

[analog mirage]

You know how opportunistic deino is right

It’s survival insists on things coming to drink

[old hull]

like i dont disagree with croc being able to kill stego im all for it , i just dont think fractures is the way to go about it

[analog mirage]

All just ideas and speculation

[old hull]

i played quite a bit of stego back when it and deino were about 50/50 in a fight and i quite enjoyed it , and in reverse having stego as a prey item for croc is fun

[analog mirage]

Just think, Deino is able to drown Alberto

[old hull]

yeah so?

[keen plover]

stupid, but yeah

[analog mirage]

Imagine you spend 4+ hours growing a Alberto only for you to be drowned by a deino

[keen plover]

3-4 hours probs and yeah- stupid since deino is 5 easy hours

[old hull]

its always a risk , but its not like deino doesnt have any counterplay

they cant hold their breath for very long so if you really want to be persistant you can wait one out

[analog mirage]

No it’s just the idea of it being able to drown it

[old hull]

or just watch the water from the woods for a bit before just going to drink

[analog mirage]

It’s just a weird idea to think about

[old hull]

i mean rex could do the same thing to every midtier back on legacy

[keen plover]

tbf, you can see a rex coming

although you could use common sense to avoid a deino

[dusky surge]

yea but rex could also leave the forest without being useless

[keen plover]

Deino is a non-issue since it's garbo

well the map is

[old hull]

i just dont see it as an issue even if the map was good , now if we wanna argue that its not fair for a deino to be so easy to grow and have that power im with you 100%

supposed to be the hardest one to grow , yet you can watch entire movies during its hunger decay lol

imagine if deino was actually quite difficult to grow , suddenly when you do get lunged by one your gonna be more like damn that guy actually grew one of those and got me , gg on him

instead of ffs that asshole just sat in the swamp watching anime and then ended my life in 1 click

[keen plover]

I don't see deino ever being hard

Well in the current game, since it literally has waters all to itself

[old hull]

same , but i would be nice if it was

[hasty coyote]

Less fish, much, much less fish

[old hull]

one suggestion ive seen is remove elite fish from its diet entirely past 50% , and force them to cannibalize their own to have their 1 nutrient

[analog mirage]

Austro and bary will help kill them off

Sucho too ig

[old hull]

that way if they wanna kumbaya in packs of 20 and be anti cannibal idiots they will be very weak

[analog mirage]

(The smaller ones at least) Bary and sucho go after the bigger ones that aren’t full grown

[keen plover]

BUT CANNIBALISM IS BAD

[analog mirage]

Cannibalism is good at encouraging them to kill each other…..it’s also good at keeping mega packs alive

[keen plover]

Honestly, I want it to be harsh like that

It keeps utah alive currently

and they're not 'cannibals'

[analog mirage]

Lol

[keen plover]

cannibalism is not a ready system

[old hull]

cannibalism by itself cant prevent megapacking , we gonna need something else

[analog mirage]

Cannibalism isn’t good for the small roster

[slim dragon]

@twin oar You know why Pachy can charge while being stationary ? That's because it's a defensive animal and shouldn't be encouraged to run after its prey
It's dsigned so it can wait for the enemy to come at it, and punish them

[old hull]

i also think the problem is cannibalism atm is an option , not forced

so for carnos its a safety net whenever they get desperate , not something they have to do

[analog mirage]

Other way around

Cannibalism is forced (Carno on Carno diet)

[keen plover]

No, since you can eat utahs

[analog mirage]

You want nutrients. Gotta kill others

[keen plover]

And there is A LOT of utahs

[analog mirage]

If you can’t find any, your next best bet is just other Carnos

[dusky surge]

bold to call pachy's opponents prey and not "things that will utterly fuck it up if it doesnt land a headbutt"

[old hull]

sadly with the current carnivore diets , you dont really care if you only got the 1 nutrient

[slim dragon]

You know what I mean

[old hull]

so as a carno you will never feel like you have to cannibalize , its just a bonus you got

so naturally , carno megapacks everywhere

[twin oar]

It doesn't make sense from a realism point of view or a balance point of view.

[slim dragon]

It does for both. Look at pachy's animation, it's moving like a hammer. As for balance, I just explained to you why it does.

[twin oar]

Can charge while stationary, the clues in the title. Charging requires momentum

[slim dragon]

That's why pachy rears up before charging, and doing so increases its damage

[old hull]

you gotta be very careful when changing pachys agility , its gonna have to content with utah almost constantly so slow it down too much and its fodder

[twin oar]

If we're going for hyper realism & breaking bones from a standstill is realistic, why does carno not "charge" & knock things over without having to move?

[twin oar]

Log in as Pachy & tap RMB, it's instant. Can't even see the rearing up it happens so fast

[dusky surge]

its not a charge, its a ram

its literally referred to as a ram

[slim dragon]

Because we're not going for hyper-realism AND carno is a carnivore, there's nothing wrong with it running down its prey

[slim dragon]

And it has the same result as punching without winding up so yeah

[hasty coyote]

Taping rmb does not do nearly as much as charging, and running while ramming do makes it deal more damage I believe.

[twin oar]

Well, if that's true it's not working correctly. I just took a standing "ram" as Utah & left with around 40% hp & broken legs.

[hasty coyote]

Plus, then what is a pachy supposed to do to a carno after it misses its first ram?

[twin oar]

Get punished for the mistake like it should be

[hasty coyote]

If you force it to gain momentum, then missing its first ram is just death.

[slim dragon]

What if you hit but don't kill the carno then ? You don't deal enough damage to kill it, and now you cannot ram anymore

[twin oar]

Survival game isn't it? Make a mistake get punished... 😂

[hasty coyote]

I’m not sure about that one, that sounds like a charged running ram to me.

[hasty coyote]

Make a mistake and instantly lose 2 hours of progress?

[twin oar]

Can 100% guarantee it wasn't, was on dam at swamp.

[hasty coyote]

Did you fall off the side?

[twin oar]

Miss one pounce & lose 90 minutes, what's the issue?

[twin oar]

No, take my word it was from the ram. I'm not lieing about it, it's what happened.

[hasty coyote]

The issue is that utah can run instead of fighting, pachy is slower than all of its predators. Plus pounce has its own issues

[twin oar]

Ok what if you miss a pounce Vs Pachy? Now your legs are broken because ram is instant with no preplanning & you're being chased down.

[hasty coyote]

I’m not sure about that one then tbh. But making pachy require momentum is literally just going to put pachy in the same spot as dryo and hypsi.

[slim dragon]

Why would even ram, a defensive tool, require to be sprinting to be used
That's basically removing it from existence unless you expect pachy to actively run down other things

[twin oar]

It's got it's alt attack with a knock down, why not use the knock down to reposition for a ram with some momentum?

Alt attack that's instant & 360 also

[hasty coyote]

1: pachy has the advantage in that fight
2: utah can run instead of fighting and pachy has no way to escape
3: you can pounce the pachy if it misses a ram, which basically dooms it if it can’t catch you
4: that is IF the pachy gets a leg break. Anything else and you can just run away

[slim dragon]

Cause it's way less effective and doens't allow you to reposition if the thing in question (namely carno) doesn't get knockdown ?

[hasty coyote]

It isn’t instant either, it has a wind up. Just juke it and land a bite or pounce.

[twin oar]

How longs the wind up, 0.5sec at most? 😂

[hasty coyote]

If you’re fighting a pachy, here’s a massive tip: they have absolutely terrible bleed regen. Just bite it, make it run, and bite again. You don’t kill them with raw damage.

[hasty coyote]

You can also just bait it out

It has some bad range, run at it and turn away, pachy will waste an alt. Then go attack it and run off again.

[twin oar]

Off out for food, so my last reply.

Pachy is in need of some nerfs in areas & buffs in others from my experience. But to say it's all buffs required is completely wrong in my opinion.

[hasty coyote]

I just think you’re approaching the fight wrong and nerfing the wrong areas.

[twin oar]

Yes you can juke it, still doesn't change its OP when or if it lands Vs Utah & Pachy can get juked so many times with minimal punishment.

[hasty coyote]

It’s stam is pretty bad, you run it out of stam and it dies quickly. Land a few bites or a pounce and keep it moving, easy bled out from there as they start to panic

[twin oar]

You run it low in anyway it's on the dam or rocks at NW camping it out which is where the instant ram becomes an issue. I've played alot of Utah & some Pachy & plenty experience battling between.

[wise sparrow]

Pachy vs Utah is
Utah gets a pounce? Utah wins.
Pachy gets a ram? Pachy wins.

And both moves are almost equally buggy lmao

[hasty coyote]

That’s just a map issue, those rocks and dam mess up every fight.