balance-feedback-discussion

[lapis wave]

Yea that needs fixing

[fresh laurel]

Kinda think the whole tail as a whole needs more dmg negation

[alpine plover]

Hot take, nerf damage by 50% for Carno's normal bite. Have it be used as a utility to slow down afflicted prey based on weight.
Alt biting being the main damage attack

You'll see a lot less Carno's sprinting in fields killing things en mass. More methodical play required

[fresh laurel]

whats Carno current bite?

[alpine plover]

I think 200-300? Need one of the stats bros to confirm

[fresh laurel]

dont think it was 300 for sure...

else Carno is 2 shotting pachy pretty easily to the body

[lapis wave]

I think croc is in the 2-300

[fresh laurel]

Deino is 500

700 for alt bite or something

[lapis wave]

Oh shit nevermind then

[fresh laurel]

lmao 200 or 300 for deino is too low

you did notice Deino one shotting Utah and Pachy right?...

also Carno mains will hate me for this but fix Carno bite hitbox to be the actual model :D

[lapis wave]

I always just dragged ‘em underwater only thing I ever bite as croc is other croc

[alpine plover]

I don't disagree there

[fresh laurel]

Carno can land bites so easily that its like legacy Rex

abuse that weird bite hitbox...

[alpine plover]

I think Carno's would be a bit more concerned when most of it's competitors doesn't go down in 2-4 normal bites by zipping around

It'd have to actually use timing, positioning to get that damage with it's alt bite

[fresh laurel]

Also can we please see tail hitboxes not be the killing blows?
Like I think they should just purely cause reduced turning the more its hit but not be the killing hit ever...

[lapis wave]

When allo or other things are hunting the carnos it’ll be different

they’re just the biggest right now is all

[fresh laurel]

carno shouldnt even be bothering to fight allo... if it does then something is wrong

like Carno should just run away when a Allo pulls up... sure it could kill it if said Allo is really bad

heck any mid tier bigger than Cera

[lapis wave]

That is what I mean, rn carno is big man on campus but when allo comes it’ll be diff

[fresh laurel]

I mean if Carno in the Cera reveal ran from that size mid tier then imagine a Alberto showing up or something

[fresh laurel]

Im just worried all Carnos move to Allo cus funny power

I dont wanna deal with Allo megapacks

I mean sure it would be easier to escape ig

[alpine plover]

Depends

The interesting thing about this game is how players interact with players

The issue is how to achieve that

Because right now, Carno could be much more interesting

[fresh laurel]

I think 50% for bite dmg is too much and would probably make ending a recently charged prey a bit too hard

I think Carno is fine is stats just maybe make it harder to turn again while fixing its hitboxes and desync

[alpine plover]

I think the turning is fine actually

It's too easy to dish out the damage it can do in unison with it's mobility

It makes it high speed x high damage

[fresh laurel]

eh Carno should turn like a tank and not try to engage in pvp only ambush...

[alpine plover]

That's the issue

Do you know what Carno's niche is?

[fresh laurel]

ambusher m8

plain animal that ambushes its prey

[alpine plover]

No, it's small game predator

Effective at dealing with small prey using it's speed

[fresh laurel]

thats what it targets lmao

its hunting style is a ambusher

you know... the reason why it has a charge

[alpine plover]

Yeah, and if you nerf the turning. It becomes incapable at dealing with small prey

[fresh laurel]

Carno biggest prey is Teno so far

and it should really be only to kill one by charging one

but rn Carno can turn pretty well to just have a biting fight

[alpine plover]

Charging is a specific utility for ambushing, and an ambush isn't always guaranteed

Carno struggled at pursuit due to poor turning

[fresh laurel]

you mean the prey that have to be ambushed to even be killed?...

Ambushing doesnt require the best turning

[fresh laurel]

thats what balances ambushing
It all depends on your prey awareness

[alpine plover]

Then if you'd nerf the turning. You'd need to make a compensation. Giving Carno even greater speed

[fresh laurel]

and Carno shouldnt be pursuing prey

if it fails the ambush then it could try to chase but in the end the prey has won the escape

[alpine plover]

Question

What is Carno's habitat?

[fresh laurel]

that literally doens make sense

[fresh laurel]

plains ingame...

not forest thats for sure

[alpine plover]

How can it ambush as viably in the plains with less cover?

[fresh laurel]

bushes

or thanks to the new camera system it can try ambushing a prey looking away

[alpine plover]

Far and few between, with significantly less foliage

[fresh laurel]

Are you trying to say it should be a forest hunter?

[alpine plover]

No

[fresh laurel]

Carno has a pretty good time ambushing rn

[alpine plover]

I'm saying having an ambush predator in the plains without a substantial amount of cover is flawed

If Carno was an ideal ambush predator, it'd be in the forest. Not the plains

[fresh laurel]

yet it works rn

new camera system helps ambushing work better too

[alpine plover]

Only because of desync, and bite being too universal at hunting/boxing

[fresh laurel]

no...

Charging works pretty well

I have yet for desync to make me die away from carno

Though I do know Carno could get its weird growl when starting to charge removed

it already thumps like hell

[alpine plover]

The only example I can think of is charging being good against Teno

[fresh laurel]

but I find Carno ambush to work best when prey is eating or laying down

[fresh laurel]

it works well on anything it hits

it also does headshot multiplier dmg that almost one shots raptors

[alpine plover]

Charge should never hit Raptors unless out of desync or just terrible player inadequacy

Regardless, bite shouldn't be this effective for Carno

[fresh laurel]

Charge should be able to hit anything as long as Carno can align itself well and if said prey isnt being very aware

Carno lands charge = dead prey
Carno misses = better luck next time

not try and pursue prey

Though I would wait to see how smalls do when Carno bite gets fixed in its hitbox

[alpine plover]

I agree, if that's the case for Teno in that situation
Unless the Teno is terrible, or you're a good player.

[fresh laurel]

I just want my point to be that Carno rn likes to brawl most things thanks to its decent turning and bite dmg when that shouldnt be the case. It should try to charge the prey to do the huge dmg chunk and knock down

[alpine plover]

nerfing the bite damage would help it stop brawling

while keeping it effective at hunting small agile prey

[fresh laurel]

yet it would make charge kills harder to do

[alpine plover]

Not neccesarily

[fresh laurel]

charge something and dont have the bite power to end it

[alpine plover]

You can use alt bite

[fresh laurel]

That would be too much stamina to use than its worth so not sure...

Also doesnt alt bite scale with normal bite?

like change one and the other changes

[alpine plover]

Alt bite can mow a raptor down in two hits

Used stam for an ambush, for alt bite.
That's cost for a quick kill used

[fresh laurel]

yes but I want Carno to be in a spot where if it charges Teno then the fight is decided while not being able to pursue or brawl prey

Carno should rely on charge as hard as utah relies on a fixed pounced

remember charging itself costs some hefty stam

[alpine plover]

Nerfing bite reduces it brawling at max speed, drifting about
Keeping alt bite as the main way to deal damage forces Carno's to be selective at using it's attacks, while leaving it open to be countered by Teno's tail slam/kicks

This would make Carno hunting Teno's very methodical if the ambush isn't acheived

[fresh laurel]

hmmmm...

I think I see what you're getting at

Maybe have carno base bite be the lowest of its tier while being the biggest of the smalls

[alpine plover]

Right, imagine this
Carno lands a charge, knocks a Teno. Then moves to get in two alt attack on the head. Good amount of stam spent, for a great amount of damage, barely leaving in time right before the Teno is able to counter back

[fresh laurel]

also reduce Carno bleed gosh dang

Wait I think reducing dmg reduces bleed anyways

[alpine plover]

There you go

Three birds one stone

[fresh laurel]

And with fixed bite hitboxes so carno isnt biting things 1251581265198 meters away...

while nerfing tracking for Carno...

I can see Carno not demolishing smalls

[alpine plover]

It solves:
Carno's high bleed
Carno boxing/brawling in gangs at high speed
Puts emphasis on charging/combo'ing. (Smarter play)

[fresh laurel]

90% of Carno users would still spam bite sadly

[alpine plover]

But not without consequences

Not gonna get away with that with Teno/Pachy anymore

Or large Utah packs. Can't mow them down in short minutes

[fresh laurel]

Pachy still needs its old charge turning just reduced run speed imo

Like instead of nerfing that things turn when holding rmb have it reduce speed...

[alpine plover]

True

Though this would force Carno's to be smart to get it's results
Combo'ing to get high damage rather than spamming

[fresh laurel]

Utahs might be able to get away with much more mistakes too so that either might be good or very bad for carno side if a good few Utahs show

[alpine plover]

Carno would have to counter with alt bite

[fresh laurel]

Alt bite too slow for Utahs sadly

[alpine plover]

Say it's running in a line, break checks. Alt bite to the side to sweep

[fresh laurel]

So carno is stuck to basic bites until Utah messes up

[alpine plover]

Aka combo'ing

[fresh laurel]

hmmm

I can see that only working on bad Utahs ig

But at the same time Utahs should be very scary if they all are good

[alpine plover]

You can still mow them down with alt bite or charge

Just not favourable to outright brawl in fields

You'd avoid the Utah packs, until they're all sitting down and not noticing you

[fresh laurel]

If we have your change in the game (plus bite hitbox fix)
then you got Carno being forced to use its brain more in combat
Carno having longer down times after a kill
Smalls have more room for mistakes
Carno isnt gonna mow down Utah packs as easily
Teno is gonna have a easier time dealing with Carno if a charge was not landed
Pachy still dies LMAO

Seems right

[alpine plover]

We all know Pachy needs some help

Though you understand what I'm getting at mostly

Because if you think about it

Every other creature is using combo's right now to be effective
Other than Deino/Stego/Carno

[fresh laurel]

Though one thing Carno should get nerfed in is tracking...
This thing lets a plain hunter be able to keep a hunt going in forests...

[alpine plover]

Tracking is just busted, not worth getting into

[fresh laurel]

Deino deserves a tug of war mechanic lunge

Stego could use a option of having a faster swipe that is weaker dmg
while making the main swipe no reach the head

I still think Swipe front range should be reduced so Stego has to turn more often but eh

[alpine plover]

You mean the jab?

[fresh laurel]

The jab idea that went around back when Stego sucked yea

[alpine plover]

I think a tail sweep should be in, while the jab costing more stam

[fresh laurel]

I just want Stego frontal swipe range nerfed in range

thats legit it

[alpine plover]

Or slow it down

[fresh laurel]

maybe higher stamina consumption but Stegos need to feel more like their head is very unsafe to have carnivores around

[alpine plover]

True, Stego is nearly omni directional

When it's supposedly flank defense

[fresh laurel]

I mean nerfing the range of swipe to the head would force Stego to have to turn

Stego range makes it feel like a Trike in terms of body protection

Can protect its head and tail and sides (sides make sense but head??)

[fresh laurel]

How does that tail bend far enough anyways to reach the head?

[alpine plover]

It was flexible enough to reach the head

It's tail irl

[fresh laurel]

heh neat

Feel bad for Allos but neat...

[alpine plover]

Though sweeping up to it's head is another thing

[fresh laurel]

Like how it is ingame?

[alpine plover]

Yea

[fresh laurel]

Also Wouldnt Stego tail swipe lose dmg by the end of the animation realistically? or...

[alpine plover]

Game says no

Max damage at all areas of swing

[fresh laurel]

So many ways to balance the damn thing in Evrima... you know the mode that has only smalls and 2 bigs being Deino and Stego

Deino is water locked so thats fine

Stego though...

[alpine plover]

Stego infests the game

Body camping, just general assholes no one can do about

[fresh laurel]

Stego legit unkillable in a herd which makes it sadder

Like Teno herds its easier to attack them since they dont have a big dmg attack for the head protection

[alpine plover]

Stego isn't killed by raptors because of pounce

[fresh laurel]

but Stego its a 360 1k dmg all around

[alpine plover]

it's bugged

[fresh laurel]

Even then it takes a hell of a time to kill a Stego that Utahs dont really bother unless they are bored or no other food

Diets doesnt help

since you can be punished for eating Stego in the long run

You know... only filling one nutrient and junk

Like imagine working your ass off for one nutrient...

[fresh laurel]

Remember the dimension video?

[alpine plover]

Yeah, not taking into account that other Stegos could be around to body camp a hard earned kill

[fresh laurel]

The one where the Utah player watched its own death happen like it was in the shadow realm

all because of pounce...

[alpine plover]

i think i seen that

[fresh laurel]

What change would you say Stego or Utah needs to encourage Utah keeping Stego pops lower

I think Utah pops really only lowered due to people not wanting to make use out of the nerfed Utah when they could go brain dead carno

[alpine plover]

It's an apex, nothing much until better predators come through
Fixing pounce is one step
Making Stego bleed like a fruit, take much longer to grow, reduce the tail jab speed near the head. Slight increase in headshot vulnerability

[fresh laurel]

What if we keep it simple and...
Increase swipe stamina cost
Reduce its all around body range especially at the head

[alpine plover]

Ehh

Increasing the cost of jab can quickly leave it defenseless

As much as I hate Stego, you gotta keep it balanced for it's weight class

[fresh laurel]

1k dmg m8
most things die before you run out IF YOU MANAGE YOUR JABS RIGHT

aka make Stego not mindlessly spam jabs and have some skill

[alpine plover]

Then give it the sweep for an alternative

[bright cargo]

Stego is fine the way it is. The swipe is slow and easy to bait out. Just fix pounce and add more predators + other mid tier herbies. You won't see many stegos around

[tall bronze]

The fact we have to balance an ecosystem of what's supposed to be smalls around something that weighs 6 t o n s is angering

[versed rune]

4.25 ton stego with 1300 tail swing damage would be balanced

[dusky surge]

so stego with basically the same damage but less weight

[alpine plover]

i knew i would catch hate

lmao

[versed rune]

i think it does 1200 right now?? but yea steg should have his weight cut down by a fair margin

[versed rune]

my brother in christ carno would need 6 whole bites to kill a raptor what alternate outcome were you expecting

[alpine plover]

To dish out heat

You mean 6 whole bites of a stam costless attack that would be repurposed at catching prey. Rather than using the alt attack

[dusky surge]

what

[alpine plover]

smh

people didnt even read

[versed rune]

yea im not gonna lie i had a stroke reading that

were you referring to like, overhauling primary bites to where they're used for biting and holding rather than dps??

[dusky surge]

also imagine having carno's alt-bite be its main damage source dear lord

[alpine plover]

did no one read the feedback other than the title

[dusky surge]

i did, didn't make me like it any more

[versed rune]

what are "catching" and "harassing" supposed to mean

it's a bit vague

[alpine plover]

"To compensate: You could implement a new stagger type affect: slow
By inflicting a brief "slow" you could retool normal bite as a utility for catching or harassing prey. This could be the norm for all carnivore predators as a tool for normal bite."

[versed rune]

ok but what does that mean exactly

[alpine plover]

briefly reducing movement, slowing sprint, trot, etc.

[dusky surge]

You know, carno already has a tool which applies a stun, but also does damage.

Charge exists

[alpine plover]

A universal rework to the normal bite

[versed rune]

yeah,, and contrary to what seems to be popular belief, carno shouldnt exactly have a low damage output either...

[dusky surge]

The concept of only charge/alt-bite being the things carno can actually ATTACK with is kinda lame

[alpine plover]

Yeah, the alt attack should be pretty hard as it currently is

[versed rune]

carno's alt attack is cringe tho

[dusky surge]

It really is

[versed rune]

zero personality + tryhard strat

[alpine plover]

It should still oneshot the small targets it can trample with it's normal bite

[alpine plover]

What's the issue with incorporating combo's in Carno's tool kit

If anything, it could be a conditional benefit to Carno

[versed rune]

nothing but how is that a combo

[alpine plover]

Having an additional tool of "slow"
Emphasis on synergizing multiple mechanics for success

[dusky surge]

why cant people leave the extremely simple "run and kill" animal as the extremely simple "run and kill" animal. Not every animal needs to be a combo king imho

[hasty coyote]

the issue with carno is not how simple it is imo, we do need simple dinos for newer players. The issue is that the herbies are facing like 3 different issues that then compound

[alpine plover]

What's wrong with broadening the tool sets of carnivores?

[dusky surge]

Why not make an animal that's better suited for the job of being a combo carnivore?

Why does the FASTEST ANIMAL IN THE GAME need to SLOW

EVERY ANIMAL IS SLOW COMPARED TO CARNO

[versed rune]

Nothing's wrong with it but not like that

[hasty coyote]

Herbies got garbo diets, worse stats than carno, tracking is busted, and all of this causes carno megapacks, which is yet another issue

[versed rune]

me when i advocate for small game hunter (i also think the small game should be able to kill the small game hunter)

[hasty coyote]

the issue isnt carno's pressure, its that everything else is broken

[alpine plover]

Why not have most playables have wider varied/mechanics tool sets as the trend
Pachy/Teno/Utah should be an example

[versed rune]

carno is the most balanced dino rn everything else is just dogcrap

[dusky surge]

Because the stinky monkey brain animal should exist, and making every animal do different shit with their primary bites isn't new player friendly

Let carno be stinky monkey brain

[hasty coyote]

teno, literally just needs minor adjustments. carno needs a tracking overhaul/mega nerf

[dusky surge]

I love carno's stats rn but HATE the tracking

[versed rune]

mega nerf

what does mega nerf mean

[alpine plover]

It can still oneshot the small prey with it's speed

[minor zealot]

the stupid arrow pointing tracking system is op

[versed rune]

true

[minor zealot]

if ppl cant tell where a dinos toe footprint is pointing then its their fault for losing its prey

[hasty coyote]

that way we have a balanced hard/easy dinos. Teno, pachy, and utah are hard, but rewarding. While stego, deino, and carno are easy to learn, but dont have much variety and can be skill issued by a good player (generally)

[versed rune]

current tracking is nauseating and the fact that they even thought of changing it from the original is ridiculous

[dusky surge]

Leave me my smelly baby brain carno. Nerf the tracking on carno, make it primarily a sight-based predator which can't track in forests for shit, buff the other animals that contest it, change basically nothing else

[versed rune]

wait so how are we supposed to nerf carno's tracking tho?? its the exact same as everything else

[alpine plover]

Though why should Carno be simplistic when there's a clear trend of broadening tool kits supporting playstyles

[jolly matrix]

https://tenor.com/view/popcorn-entertainment-gif-9904298

[minor zealot]

just remove the arrow pointing mechanism from carno. thatll be the "nerf"

[hasty coyote]

plus, making a slow on the bite just makes getting it off of you even more aids. pachy already has trouble getting a carno off its tail, now imagine it cant run away once it has to turn.

[dusky surge]

Because good game design should imply that there are some entry-level or simple playable to help the player become accustomed to more complex systems, rather than throwing the new guy into the deep end in the hopes they'll learn

[versed rune]

every dino has that tho. just remove it from all of em cuz tracking is cringe

[dusky surge]

If everything is complex and annoying, new players will drop the game because all the dinosaurs are complex and annoying

[minor zealot]

yea ngl I wish they just removed it. too annoying

[versed rune]

also i wouldnt really call carno simple to play.

i mean. i guess its simple. but itll function very differently from other carnivores in its weight class.

carno's just the default rn so theres really no reference points

[minor zealot]

regular tracks should stay. its the damn blue track thats cringe\

[hasty coyote]

heres what i want for tracking, carno has their tracking gutted, cant smell prints much, cant smell blood much. Utah should have slightly worse blood smell than now (just make the timer between blood pools longer) and the cone removed.

[alpine plover]

Carno can still do that though
Easily nabbing up small prey with it's bite in oneshot
Running away from bad encounters
While leaving room to get accustomed to more potential when the newcomer learns the buttons

[dusky surge]

carno should, imho, have a simplistic and easy to learn kit. The complexities come from other animals and the matchups between them, but otherwise, players shouldn't be trying to learn when best to utilise 4 different attacks like with tenonto, they should pick up the basics on carno quickly

[versed rune]

that doesnt solve the issue of tracking is unfair as hell. it just makes it so carno cant utilize a mechanic

[dusky surge]

Its speed makes it safe and more forgiving, which makes it better for newbies

[alpine plover]

pls dont talk about tracking, its a waste of time when its busted all around

[versed rune]

yea pretty much. easy to learn how to use but the matchups vary wildly because its playstyle is so simple

its like an irony sort of thing

[alpine plover]

Okay

How would it's playstyle vary if this change were implemented

How would it play differently then it currently does

[hasty coyote]

honestly, i dont play carnis often, so im just basing what I know off what I have seen and experienced. If yall got better suggestions on how to fix it then im all ears.

[hasty coyote]

tail riding pachies so much easier

[versed rune]

it doesnt matter because the devs have already gone on record saying that primary bites will be staying as is for the foreseeable future

[hasty coyote]

it cant do hit and run attacks

[alpine plover]

"foreseeable"

[dusky surge]

Players will very likely move towards the simplest move in their kit first, the bite. If you have a bite that's utter dogshit, and instead of using your simple kit to move VERY fast and bite your prey, and you do nothing with that, it's going to be awful

Not to mention that, again, a slow is literally the least useful stun a carno could apply

Since carno doesn't need things to move slower, it's the fastest animal on land

[alpine plover]

Okay, so what exactly is bites purpose atm
Catching prey? Combat?

[versed rune]

bring carno up to 200 damage, charge up to 300, nerf his normal sprinting turn, alter the stats of other dinos accordingly

im in favor of buffing every dino except for the giant ones, who could honestly also use small damage buffs, just hp nerfs would have to be included.

[dusky surge]

Both. It's a simple tool that's easy to use in pursuits, ambushes and face to face combat. It's efficiency varies in all of these scenarios, but it's still extremely accessible and at least somewhat impactful regardless of where you use it

[versed rune]

this idea of "carno shouldnt fight lole!!!!" is wacky ngl

like this is a survival game why do people insist on making it so a large carnivore isnt able to fight

[alpine plover]

So right now, bite is a zero stam cost move, that does good damage, that you can hit and run with, that does bleed for tracking, which also wears out opponents, and is for catching prey.

[hasty coyote]

im not saying how to fix carno, im saying how to fix tracking. Carno's stats arent too bad atm. Pachy just needs help getting breaks and making them more impactful, but then running away is nearly impossible because of tracking and its low stam. Teno v carno isnt in a bad spot atm either from what i have seen

[dusky surge]

Yes

[alpine plover]

Carno should fight, I never said it shouldn't

[versed rune]

i dont think you want to go down the route of arguing in favor of the beasts of bermuda ability meter system

[alpine plover]

Strawman x2

I'll start counting

[versed rune]

how is that a strawman 💀

[hasty coyote]

pachy's headbutt is a knockdown/stun, does solid damage, can be charged up while moving, can completely cripple a dino, and is used for both a starter and a finisher.

[versed rune]

bro if you want primary bites to cost stam you're literally advocating for BoB ability. which means that the moment you run out of stam you're LITERALLY dead

thats ridiculous no matter what dino u are

[minor zealot]

regular bite shouldnt cost stam. ofc they do decent amount of damage, they are huge

[dusky surge]

My man, halving carno's attack damage and making it into a slow-tool defeats the whole-ass point of carno. Why would it need to slow as the fastest damn animal I literally do not understand

[hasty coyote]

you can say a lot about a lot of abilities, doesnt mean their weaknesses dont exist either

[alpine plover]

That's a multi purpose ability that has a lot of bang for little buck
It's already a utility based on bleed alone, let alone the damage included which allows to deal a substantial amount and zip out with little commitment

[versed rune]

teno vs carno just suffers from this issue that tail slam is literally useless rn

worse than kick in every way

[alpine plover]

It's to slow it down for the alt attack as a finisher

[dusky surge]

Deino also has that but that's apparently not an issue. That's how carnivores work in this game, the bites are the easiest non-committal options

[minor zealot]

tail slam isnt useless its actually rlly good. its the kick that sucks due to its hit box being extremely small that it misses 70% of the time

[alpine plover]

When did I say it's not an issue?

[hasty coyote]

it isnt too bad still, all they need to do is reduce the stam cost of tail slam a bit and maybe extend the kick hitbox a bit. then teno is golden

[dusky surge]

Exactly

[versed rune]

honestly, id rather see 1650 hp teno with 300 tail slam damage and 200 kick damage, and cut his stam cost on attacks in half

meanwhile do 1850 hp carno with 300 charge damage and 200 bite force, with a slight reduction in sprint turn

so basically carno can mow through a teno's hp if he gets the charge but teno has the ability to not tire out quick and can match carno's damage, but on a defensive scale

[alpine plover]

I don't have an issue with non committal options
They can provide utility for catching, tracking, harassing prey on it's own
I have an issue with non committal options capable of significant damage on top of that.

[minor zealot]

mmmm a tenos dmg and hp doesnt need to be touched(just stam and hitbox needs to be fixed). 1v1 a teno does rlly good (if they know how to play teno)

[alpine plover]

And no, I'm not gonna argue that the bite shouldn't kill a juvie. Inb4 the strawman

[jolly matrix]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/844785369823707217/969810106952859648/KSYSxOOo.gif

[alpine plover]

https://tenor.com/view/goat-standing-wax-figure-creepy-gif-17526503

[hollow canyon]

Pursuit predator running down smaller things that encounter it out in the open. Ambush is literally antithetical to what Carno is supposed to be doing. It wants to have you out in the open with as little obstacles as possible, anything that gets in its way(which is pretty much everything that would allow other predators to ambush their prey) should be a problem for it.

We will have a tonne of ambush predators in the game, we don't need Carno to be yet another one.

[half girder]

pachy main? how's pachy in your opinion?

[rapid flicker]

I think with some reduced stamina on attacks or faster walking animation and with a nerf to the carno turn radius it should be solid.

Right now pachy has just too many downsides

[golden coral]

Wouldn't faster trot be nicer for pachy, isn't that rather slow as it stands?

[rapid flicker]

They walk just as fast as a stego

[half girder]

its pretty damn slow, so is the crouch

[golden coral]

They do? I don't think I ever used walk much, but I felt the trot was terrible for travel.

[rapid flicker]

yes it is, incredibly slow

[half girder]

i would say reduced stam drain on sprinting

[rapid flicker]

no more on attacks

[golden coral]

Eh.. I'd prefer to make the trots good over all

Better to travel, than running everywhere

[rapid flicker]

The thing is, because they walk so slow they have to use more stamina for running and also use stamina for attacks on top of that

and without stamina pachy is a sitting duck

[half girder]

less stam drain would make the hit and run play work alot more better

[rapid flicker]

Oh and dont forget. pachy is the only dino that also uses stamina for eating

[half girder]

downward headbutt is pretty good

something in ur hitbox ez knock down and fracture

stam cost is alot but its fine tbh

and the turning is just awful, maybe a lower radius, not like up4 but abit better, a good carno would just dodge

[rapid flicker]

I dont think pachy needs tighter turn. carno just needs a wider one

[half girder]

pachy turns like up2 carno

its awful

[rapid flicker]

I guess we are talking about the charging turn yes?

[half girder]

yes ofc

[rapid flicker]

holding the ram while turning

only time you are gonna use that is against carnos

but its unusable on them because they turn too sharp

Against utahs you are better off using ALT attack

[half girder]

maybe if they didnt which they should it would

tail riding should not be a thing but as of this update it sure is

[rapid flicker]

Carno should never be allowed to tailride anything

Turn radius should be its main weakness

Straight line speed god with bad turning

[half girder]

well, hopefully some wishes come true so pachy can feel faster and more fluid like up4

[rapid flicker]

In my opinion U4 pachy was fine. The only problem was oasis and stunlocks

but yeah carno got buffed. so now pachy needs some aswell

Even the most skilled pachy doesnt stand a chance against the worst carno player in a 1v1, the way things are balanced now.

[half girder]

but pachy isnt supposed to be 1v1ing a carno in a video game 🤓

[rapid flicker]

carno should win most of the time

not all the time

[half girder]

a bad carno that doesnt have good movement and cant predict should be punished, but its hard to turn on them lol

its really hard hitting them with this visual bug too

[rapid flicker]

Its not even about movement or anything. You just dont have enough stamina to get enough hits in to kill the carno

[half girder]

i mean, honestly, solo im fine with running, but in groups pachy with tap fracture is just too ez

still dont fully know if its a bug, def helps with 1v1ing a carno but damn

[rapid flicker]

Yeah i dont know what is currently happening with tap ram

[half girder]

pachy is abit busted with that lol

[rapid flicker]

After every update you have to figure things out again

After update 4.5 Alt attack suddenly does 1/2 dmg of a charge

while it used to be 1/5

But you dont see those things in the patch notes

[half girder]

yeah, shadow buff and nerfs are annoying

fighting utahs rn its just absurd as pachy, wasting stam thinking you landed a headbutt, i just dont even want to play rn

[rapid flicker]

true

But utah has his own problems aswell

[somber sphinx]

@slender kettle cera wont have a better health pool than a carno bc weight=health and if that were the case then we would have a cera pop problem

Cera prob will have a simular dmg to carno or Worse

[golden coral]

While ceratorex was fun in it's own way, I don't think we want that back. The very high resistance to bleed/assorted effects, sure. But the raw health/damage, not so much.

[unborn iris]

Wouldn't that just be a worse carno?

What can it possibly have to not just be a carno with no speed? Turning isn't really going to cut it.

[somber sphinx]

not really, cera is a scavanger/brawler while carno is an ambusher

[unborn iris]

I'm genuinely asking, I've been curious about this.

So a brawler with less health and damage than a carno? How does that work?

Carno picks that apart.

[somber sphinx]

here is the thing that would work, carno would win against cera in an open plains while cera wins agains a carno in a dense forest

[unborn iris]

That's easy to say.. but how, with less damage, health, and speed.

[somber sphinx]

agility and cera wil have a spesial attack that we dont know about

[unborn iris]

Yeah

It will be interesting to see how they do it.

[somber sphinx]

but if they wanted to make the dinos realistic as possible then cera would be weak as hell

[somber sphinx]

but remember that if we were to get a cera that has better bite force and health than a carno then we would just get the carno problem again but with cera

So bringing back ceratorex is a bad idea

[rapid flicker]

Thats why carno needs to turn like a bus and cera needs to be agile but with much less speed then carno

then both fill a different niche

[somber sphinx]

Yes, carno should turn like a buss while cera would be wery agile, but if we are going back to ceratorex then every carnivore player would play cera bc its stronger and better

[somber sphinx]

Yes, carno should turn like a buss while cera would be wery agile, but if we are going back to ceratorex then every carnivore player would play cera bc its stronger and better

[craggy trench]

#balance-feedback message

you can just crouch in forest

tracking is wallhack when you are at middle of plains, you can easily lose carnos in a forest by making distance and crouching and running again after some time

#balance-feedback message
you can just crouch too

Well stego and teno cannot crouch but they stealth

Some herbi players still can not understand the full potential of crouch

They just run around in plains..

If you are teno and cannot crouch you can use rivers and your OP swimming to lose tracks

Carnos swim like how cars swim

[hasty coyote]

heres the issue with that
A: tenos cant even crouch
B: i play pachy, i already have a hard enough time getting a carno off my tail, i cant just crouch to get away

[craggy trench]

I understand that problem. To cope with that when Im playing teno I just jump to a river and swim like a croc to lose carnos on my back. To cope with that as a pachy I just dont wander too far from forest line when Im in plains. I always have plan B

And both of this tactics work too well for me that I would think tracking nerf is unnecessary. Its just punishment for wanderin lone herbis.

[hasty coyote]

I always keep an escape plan as a pachy as well, whether that be a forest or a rock nearby

[hasty coyote]

Herbies have to be viable solo too

[craggy trench]

I dont think it is certain death when you are solo. I play solo pachy. For example when Im solo pachy at MIDDLE of plains the risk increases as the land carnivores can track me until I hide in a forest. I am still viable solo. Its just the balance.

You may not agree Its my opinion that its easy to dodge carnis tracking when you know what to do.

but its still punishing when you dont know what to do. So I would think its kind of balanced

[hasty coyote]

I have had a perfect situation that makes me really hate the current tracking. I was drinking as a solo pachy and a carno rammed me, but somehow didnt kill me because he didnt bite while i was on the ground. I then break his ribs and skull in 2 bashes and ran deep into the forest right next to me. He managed to catch up to me before my stam had regen, and he still had a broken face and ribs. I managed to escape still because he was bad, but the fact that I can literally cripple someone and play pretty well but still be found is insane

[craggy trench]

Oh yeah its one of those situations

[marsh lion]

Could I also add this, I think not having river wallowing or even other wallowing spots also make it even harder to lose a carnivore trying to get you

[craggy trench]

Maybe carnos cannot track when their face is broken? How about that_?

It makes sense in a way

I can maybe post it in feedback

[marsh lion]

I like this too☝️

[hasty coyote]

personally, I want carno to be more of the plains dino and not have too good tracking, so if you manage to get to the forest, then you are likely safe.

[marsh lion]

Actually make it for all carnivores in general to not be able to track with a broken face

[hasty coyote]

that is a bit weird that they still can, but I can understand why they have it.

THIS is what I dont want: https://youtu.be/XkiDgZ4NEp4?t=140

granted, these carnos are actually smart, but they can go through thick vegetation while sprinting to find that pachy

how was that pachy supposed to escape? crouching doesnt stop the bleed tracks, and these carnos can sprint while tracking through thick vegetation

[marsh lion]

True

[hasty coyote]

if they allow carnis to track through vegetation this easily, they should have to stop and smell, not just smell for 1 sec then sprint them down

[marsh lion]

Plus there is no place to wallow either which also sucks

[craggy trench]

I posted in feedback

[craggy trench]

at the same place when I was a pachy earlier, I succesfully hid from 5 carno pack

[marsh lion]

👍

[craggy trench]

I just got the urge to get up and run but I kept on crouching they literally walked right past me

but if youre bleeding... thats scary

[hasty coyote]

thats might also be why you managed to escape, most the carnos in those hordes are not the best at tracking, or the game in general. i have managed to hide from 2 carnos after i traded with one because the other pachy I was with ran across the river and the carnos followed them instead.

I may have exaggerated with "wallhacks" but its honestly still broken af if the carnos are smart

[craggy trench]

youre right yeah. but there arent many smart carnos lol

[marsh lion]

I mean I understand both you guy's points on the tracking. I personally like the tracking but I also think that not having a lot of places wallow to hide cover your bleed and tracks is the main problem for it to be overpowered.

[hasty coyote]

they either need to make it less impactful (which i prefer personally) or make more areas to wallow

[craggy trench]

Okay Im just gonna give u a little hint I learned earlier. I always had an urge to not crouch when carno is checking right next to me but when I resisted and stayed at same place it is literally impossible for the carno to see you. Pachy is a very short dinosaur regarding its size so trust in your crouch more thats all I have to say.

[craggy trench]

Yeah maybe make the blue marker showing the next tracks much wider so they need to explore a little more, spend a little more time

[hasty coyote]

yeah it is hard for carnos to see you, when im being tracked through a forest, the carnos still dont see me when im crouched. but a smart carno will find me.

[hasty coyote]

honestly, i have seen this suggestion a few times: just remove the marker. That way you have to look at the tracks to tell where they lead and have to guess where they went

it also allows herbies to throw them off the trail easier

[craggy trench]

no, sometimes when the herbi changes directions after it left the last footprints, the footprint direction and where its gone can differ so much

But maybe with few tweaks the tracking would be much better

it isnt obv perfect rn so yeah

[hasty coyote]

exactly, that way you are able to throw a carno off your trail easier in a forest, and if they dont find the tracks fast enough you escape.

yeah I just also have some bias as I mostly play pachy and it already has trouble escaping with its bad stam. If they make the pachy more easily able to run after a break I wouldnt mind tracking, but if they keep pachy's stam low after a fight, then it needs to be able to throw a carno off its trail

[craggy trench]

I think one of the reasons pachy's stam is low is because its actually meant to be in a group

if the stam is tweaked so a solo pachy has easier time would make groups too OP

they are OP even now..

[marsh lion]

Yeah Pachy stam is fine, you just gotta learn how to manage it

[hasty coyote]

honestly, if they balance it to force it in a group, that would be aids. A solo pachy needs to be able to escape. Also, a group of anything its terrifying, pachs of utahs would be 10x more scary if their pounce wasnt Russian roulette. Plus, a group of carnos can murder quite a lot, just look in the vid i sent above. The issue with hordes of pachies is when the carnos are not coordinated enough and get leg broken and bashed to death.

[hasty coyote]

its not too bad honestly, just very hard to escape from something faster and has more stam than you that can track you through a forest. If they allow pachies a way to throw off carnos, bash easier, have better stam, or make the breaks they get more impactful, then solo pachies have a chance to survive a carno attack

[old hull]

pachy having such a terrible trot speed indirectly makes its stam feel even worse too because you basically have to sprint constantly , trying to trot mid fight vs utah or carno is just asking to die

ive seen a few people saying just reduce how much stamina gets eaten up by pachy just sprinting and that could do , wont make them any stronger since they still waste a ton of stam ramming

[hasty coyote]

that honestly one of the main fixes i want, even put that im my suggestions lol

[old hull]

dis guud

[marsh lion]

Idk, I still think you can throw off a Carno if you pull it off well enough, and the bashing imo is fine but the hitbox in which a pachy tries to hit something and it doesn't register is really broken and needs fixed. The better stam, I still think it's in a good spot. Making the breaks more impactful, do you mean like say if someone has a broken leg they get slower the more they try to move around with it type deal? Wouldn't mind that tbh

[marsh lion]

I do like this as well

[hasty coyote]

those are just some of my ideas, I dont want ALL of them to happen, just like 1 maybe 2.

By making breaks more impactful, it would just depend on the break. For legs id say make them unable to heal or take WAY longer to heal if you keep walking/sprinting. For ribs, id say using stam makes them take longer to heal or make regening stam slower too. And for skull, make biting cost more hp, that way you cant just run down people still and spam bite like you dont care, it should be risky to spam bite with no skull. Any of those changes would normally end the fight after the first break, and continuing fighting be VERY risky.

[marsh lion]

Ok the way you explained it here, I understand it clearly now and these are some good ideas

[somber sphinx]

@vagrant plover carnos Max group limit is 3. before it was 4-5

[vagrant plover]

I'm sure there were 2 in update 2. But I might be wrong.
but it should be like this now.

[minor zealot]

Having only 2 carnos in a group will literally do nothing

[vagrant plover]

Utahs would have a chance. a pack of utahs can win against 2 if they are lucky. but 3 carnos just kill everything in their path except stego group.

[minor zealot]

Yet again 2 carno grp limit won't change anything

10 carnos already stick together with the 3 grp limit

Stegos don't follow grp limit aswell. No one does

[vagrant plover]

that's why we need a mechanic that does damage to the players when the group is too big to fend off something like that

[slim dragon]

Doing damage to players when there's too many of them is too extreme

In survival games, only that which could realistically kill you should deal damage

[vagrant plover]

like 7 full grown carnos ?🤨

many do not play naturally. and if they did, the mechanics wouldn't bother them

[slim dragon]

It's not a matter of playing naturally or not
It's the fact that except guinea pigs, animals don't die from stress alone

Also as many people often said, proximity-based debuffs are a terrible thing

Especially if they affect health

[vagrant plover]

dozens of animals can die from stress

[slim dragon]

Only in very extreme cases
Plus, it's a game

[indigo vigil]

who said it effected health

I thought it could be that youd get a debuff on stam

if theres like 30 carnos in 1 spot

[slim dragon]

Scroll up 10 messages

Still has the problem of being a proximity-based debuff

It would work better as a griefing and trolling tool than for balance

[indigo vigil]

its not a stress factor though, its a competition

[slim dragon]

Same thing
Your dino doesn't think, you're controlling it.

Also people should stop afking for situational buffs and debuffs, this game isn't a MMORPG or a MOBA

[solemn sequoia]

to be fair the idea was to prevent megapacks

[slim dragon]

I know and there's been plenty of ideas like yours. The version that only affects dinos of the same species is the least bad imo, but it doesn't mean it should be implemented.

[indigo vigil]

thats why u gotta FORCE them to not megapack

[slim dragon]

Yeah, but not through buffs or debuffs

[indigo vigil]

since I think we call know carnos/pachys are overpopulating

[indigo vigil]

how would u suggest it then

[slim dragon]

There are several options
First one ould be balancing out creatures and ecosystem so megapacking is not efficient and end up in members ending up starving. Also the hardest one to accomplish

Second one is improving the already present megapack scent cue to make it more obvious and more useful for potential prey so that they don't run into the megapack
But it doesn't fix carno megapacks since they're faster than everything else

[indigo vigil]

yeah, it doesnt fix it

[solemn sequoia]

so with the debuff idea make it so megapacks starve quicker from being close together so they either starve or kill each other for food

[slim dragon]

A food-related debuff would be the only thing I would like to see in-game
But it might have unwanted effects, like making megapacks rampage the entire map even more instead of culling them

[indigo vigil]

yeah ^

water maybe though?

or health regen

[slim dragon]

Another solution, which sadly a lot of players wouldn't hate would be to have a larger map, and lots of AI including dinos so that even if all 100 players on a server are playing carno (or even rex) it doesn't ruin the ecosystem nor other people's experience.

[indigo vigil]

still a lot of carnos by that, though

and theres too much fps lag to do that

[slim dragon]

These two wouldn't work
Water is an infinite resource
Health regen only affects the ones who get hurt, but the point of a megapack is to win every fight with no resistance

[indigo vigil]

or possibly they have the cannibal effect due to being near too many carnos

make them snap around like rabid dinos haha

but thats a far stretch

[vagrant plover]

maybe another mechanic that focuses on cannibalism when there are too many. that they only get nutrients of the same kind

[slim dragon]

Uhhhhhh
Yeah no

That kinda doesn't make sense

[vagrant plover]

Like mega packs

[indigo vigil]

OR make it that a whole ONE option of the carnos diet would be only another carno, no ai alternative, no utah. So that their forced to munch each other

since carnos are cutting down the only other land carnivore 24/7 instead of each other which thats what devs wanted to do

[slim dragon]

Changing dinos diets based on having too much of your same species around is a very specific, doublty useful and unjustified mechanic

[indigo vigil]

how?

you cant have a full realistic approch to megapacks

[slim dragon]

A lot of people say that in videogames, gameplay matters over everything else
But it's a lie
Coherence matters over gameplay

[indigo vigil]

sometimes you JUST HAVE TO look at it mechanically

[slim dragon]

I'm not saying it should be realistic, I'm saying it should make sense

[indigo vigil]

and yeah, carnos are cannibals

~makes sense~

[solemn sequoia]

yeah, and megapacks that go over the pack limit should be punished for doing so

[slim dragon]

Yeah they're cannibals and it makes sense
But try applying it to something else, like Utahs who aren't cannibals

[indigo vigil]

yeah so dont apply it to utahs lmao

[slim dragon]

There's a lot of other utahs around them, so suddendly their body adapts so they have to eat utah meat and ONLY utah meat ?

[slim dragon]

So that's an andit-megapack mechanic that only applies to carnos

[solemn sequoia]

again the suggestion was that each dino would get a debuff that would affect them the most

[indigo vigil]

dont make it a change? make it so day 1 u can only fill up that meter with other carno bodies

[spare badger]

Oh hi alter

[indigo vigil]

and what are the biggest megapacks atm

[solemn sequoia]

hi dino

[slim dragon]

At that point might as well wait until there are more playables and see if the problem persists instead of trying to fix something that is mostly due to the fact the game is still in its early stage of development

[vagrant plover]

yes, let's wait a few years

[indigo vigil]

More playables would work, sincea lot of big rex mains are going to carnos bc they want their little strongest dinos, yet still carno overpacks are an issue

[indigo vigil]

as this guy said, too much time too

[slim dragon]

You're not getting the problem here
The problem doesn't come from carnos themselves, it comes from the players
They don't want to play carno, they want to play the strongest thing around with no consequence
So if megapacking as carno comes with consequences, they will still megapack, but as something else

[solemn sequoia]

to be fair even in legacy megapacks are an issue, people just swarm the strongest dino

[indigo vigil]

yeah so make it a debuff on ALL CREATURES who over pack

[spare badger]

It seems like a non-intrusive way of dealing with large packs, depending on what is debuffed and how exactly it would work

[slim dragon]

In legacy magapacks are even more of an issue because they are extremely easy to sustain, there are no group limits and there is no balance

[indigo vigil]

thats why its up to the devs

[solemn sequoia]

The idea was that every dino would get their own debuff for megapacks so that if any dino does so they get a debuff that hits them hard for doing so

[slim dragon]

Then it has to be a debuff that works on every creature
Cause cannibalism won't work on herivores

[spare badger]

Overpack scent it a good start, but we need more than that

[slim dragon]

So you'd have to balance a mechanic that is there to fix a balance problem

Why not return to the root of the problem, get out with this "debuff idea" and look at what causes megapacks, why they are so bad, and find solutions to this ?

[indigo vigil]

u dont need only cannibalism to fix that though

utah - speed debuff if over populated
carno - cannibalism if over populated
pachy - no control of the player headbutt debuff if over populated
tenonto - random attacks debuff if over populated
Stegos - random tail swings

lemmy write this out

[slim dragon]

Look
People megapack as carno because it's what gives them the highest chances of survival
Because nothing can fight a carno megapack, and even if they could, they can run from anything
Being in a megapack also allows them to get pretty much infinite amounts of free food

[indigo vigil]

at minimum itd make the species space out / make it easier to kill off the lone ones

[slim dragon]

It is among those line that there is a problem that should be fixed

[indigo vigil]

and I already gave u a way to combat that

[slim dragon]

No, you're looking to late in the course of events. You're looking at way to disable megapacks after they've form, while the solution would be to have them never form.

[solemn sequoia]

hence why there should be a heavy downside for doing so to discourage people from going overt the pack limit set by the devs in order to keep things balanced

[indigo vigil]

better to have a way to quit them after it happens, rather than nothing

[slim dragon]

If megapacks can still form, although they get debuffs and would quickly die, they can still form. So the problem is unsolved. It just becomes something that is only present temporarily

[indigo vigil]

bc ur pointing out the problems
not giving the solutions

[indigo vigil]

its to make the 3rd parties that are attacking them kill them or drive them to seperate

[slim dragon]

Ofc why do you think balancing takes months or even years ? It needs deep tinkering, not 3 random people throwing around random ideas and instaalty choosing one for lack of a better one after 30 minutes

[indigo vigil]

thats why the message is wide spread

so the devs can think on it and make their own solution

[solemn sequoia]

thats why its in balance feedback

thats litteraly what this chat is for

[indigo vigil]

plus if it doesnt work, they can take it out

[solemn sequoia]

also you can't stop mega packs from forming but you can sure as hell make it hurt if people do form them

[slim dragon]

I don't have a solution right now
But if I worked among the dev team and was tasked to find one, I would spend a few days listing every thing that causes the problem, measuring its severity and the influence of each one of them, then I would spend weeks finding as many solutions as I can and trying to get what the side-effects of all of those would be, then I would come up with a potential solution, put it to test, realize it doesn't work, and start over again, but with a little more insight

[spare badger]

It's a hard thing to fix

[slim dragon]

exactly

[indigo vigil]

thats why its a suggestion

[solemn sequoia]

and thats why its a suggestion, it can be tweeked by the devs if they like it

[slim dragon]

Could also take example from other games and see if/how they can apply to The Isle

[indigo vigil]

mhm

so it should be seen as a good thing, to test

[slim dragon]

It would be better to provide solutions that devs don't have to rethink in their entirety if we want to be of any use to them

[indigo vigil]

Im not saying DO IT AND DONT EVER CHANGE IT - Im saying test it out, if it works to make megapacks less likely to form/ more easily killable, itd be ccooool.

[slim dragon]

Sure
But maybe it has already been tested internally with QA

[solemn sequoia]

we don't know hence the suggestion

[slim dragon]

And I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work, hence the debate

Not as a definitive fix anyways

[spare badger]

But the many suggestions show that the community wants something to change, so hopefully the devs can figure something out

[indigo vigil]

it better be it a small spike into megapacks rather than nothing

like dont we want small things to change big things like a domino effects?

so, itd be reasonable, add small things to turn into a big thing

[slim dragon]

Honestly, I would prefer nothing for now since there are a lot of incoming changes that might cull the issue without needing to do anything on top of that. For example, the addition of cerato and troodon

[indigo vigil]

like diets - they worked. they made people travel and yet they dont.. NEED to

[solemn sequoia]

the issue with megapacks is that its not dino specific, its player specific, so long as there isn't a mechanic to discourage it chances are we'll see the same thing where the strongest best dinos will be overplayed to a point megapacks will form, its an issue in legacy despite the variety of creatures so why would more creatures resolve this issue?

[slim dragon]

Because

1. It gives more variety of things to play. Right now, for people who want to play a land carnivore, there's tiehr carno or Utah. But utah is weaker, smaller, slower and more buggy than carno. So it already explains 75% of the megapack issue.

2. Eventually in the roster there will be nothing that can't be challenged. That's why we have an apex trio, and not just rex. Currently carno is unchallenged because it is both the strongest and fastest predator in the game.

[solemn sequoia]

ok, but even in legacy the issue exists despite the presence of 3 apexes with trike giga and rex

[slim dragon]

3. There is nothing to do but run around and fight rn. So once you're a full-grown carno, joining a megapack and fighting until you die is the only thing to do, just like stegos corpseguarding.

[slim dragon]

But legacy is very poorly balanced, and neither trike nor giga can match a rex

Also apexes are just stronger than the other species in legacy

[solemn sequoia]

and your telling me evrima will be balanced enough so apex megapacks won't exist?

like why play an allo when you can play one of the big 3 in a megapack?

[slim dragon]

I wasn't finished tho
4. A lot of people seem to forget this, but humans will probably do a very good job at reducing the megapack commonality and power

[hollow canyon]

cause Allo can do things that the apexes cannot do

[slim dragon]

I you don't believe evrima can ever be balanced, I don't know what you're even doing here

[indigo vigil]

humans arent a priority

[solemn sequoia]

and are going to be squishy and actuall good weapons will be hard to come by

[slim dragon]

They aren't to you
But they are as much part of the final game as any dino

[indigo vigil]

bru

their not being polished now yes?

so they arent priority

[hollow canyon]

As for the point that legacy had multiple apexes and yet the Rex was the strongest - while that is true Rex wasn't actually the only apex played.

[slim dragon]

Work on humans is pretty advanced already

[hollow canyon]

I'd pick Giga over Rex any day of the week

while it performed worse in a 1v1 it had other things going for itself

[indigo vigil]

u can literally see nests rn are the priority

[hollow canyon]

and most of all - it was just much more entertaining to play

[indigo vigil]

everythings pretty advanced already, but not gonna be added very soon most likely

[slim dragon]

Also what I mean is that a lot of players who just want to run around and fight things will probably switch over to humans, since they are low commitment(no growth) and I doubt a group of 20 humans will ever be as oppressive as a group of 20 carnos

[indigo vigil]

yeah but they wont come by now

and its be cool to have shit now, wouldnt it?

not 3 years later

[hollow canyon]

What he said there doesn't imply he believes Evrima cannot be balanced- it obviously can, he seems to be more so saying that it won't be well balanced

[indigo vigil]

plus u urself said u think megapacks look for the strongest thing to get, so humans wouldnt be strongest to pick so they wouldnt pick them

[slim dragon]

So this discussion just revolves around the same thing and loops back to its first point. I don't see implementing and balancing a mechanic that we know will probably be temporary worthwile.

[slim dragon]

Depends on how you look at it

[indigo vigil]

we are always shooting back fixes at u while u go to another topic to win against to lol

[slim dragon]

You're always shooting back the same fix over and over

So it loops indeed

[indigo vigil]

making u go into a circle, get anxious and start saying "oh its not worth doing on now"

Bc its the fix my guy..

maybe not 100 fix, but its a fix, to a point

[solemn sequoia]

and your litterally just saying no its not important even if its an issue isle has had for a long time

[indigo vigil]

thats why its so wide spread..

so it fixes all ur problems (possibly)

and thats why it should be put in, to TEST THAT. If it doesnt work, dont do it

[solemn sequoia]

even in progression days there were megapacks, and your telling me adding some dinos will fix that?

[slim dragon]

I would rather have devs use their time to work on what's gonna be really useful for the game instead of something that we know will become obsolete with more game development

[indigo vigil]

delete it from the code if it doesnt work

[indigo vigil]

everythings useful. You shouldnt bypass an issue because this one other things cooler

[slim dragon]

It's not the same game
Tailriding was a problem for the entirety of legacy's existence, and it was eliminated with evrima's very first iteration
In evrima there actually is something to balance instead of just changing the creatures' speed and damage

[indigo vigil]

doesnt change the fact megas are still there

[slim dragon]

Of course they are
I explained why several times already

[indigo vigil]

so u just shot back against ur comment

ur looping it urself

[slim dragon]

I have no choice, you're not trying to make any progress here

We could go on like this for hours if you want

But actually we wont because I'm gonna go to bed soon enough

[crude garnet]

Wasn't there a token system planned to unlock apexes and other mid/large carnivores?

[slim dragon]

Not afaik

[crude garnet]

Well last thing i want is to be in a server where 80% of the players are trying to grow the big boys, it's gonna be legacy PTSD all over again

[golden coral]

Someone had that idea, not sure if the devs ever decided on it. In any case, Necro has the right idea up there. If you want to solve it, you need to first figure out all the reasons why what you're trying to solve exist, and work from there.

[crude garnet]

Someone made a really good sugestion to unlock apexes a while back, about you have to complete the life cycle of several carnivores to be granted a token to unlock an apex

[slim dragon]

Literally legacy progression mode
I'd personnally hate it

[crude garnet]

Then again if people want to play their fav dinos, sandbox would still be a thing

[golden coral]

Yeah, not a fan myself, don't like having to play critters I may not like to get to play one I do like

[crude garnet]

People will always gravitate towards those dinosaurs, and the ecosystem will never be balanced that way

[solemn sequoia]

hence why the idea is nice, we're not stopping people playing the dino they want we're just limiting the amount of a certain dino in an area over the pack limit

[slim dragon]

First reason being, either it's server-locked and you gotta do the entire process of unlocking every carnivore for every server you play on
So if the server you unlocked rex on is full, well too bad for you, play velo instead
Either it's not server-locked and people can just do their grows and an empty server to unlock rex, and it accomplishes nothing
Except preventing people like me from ever playing rex because I don't have hundreds of hours to waste on dinos I don't want to play

[solemn sequoia]

and encouraging them to fight so popullation isn't 80% big

[crude garnet]

If they aren't locked somehow then id rather them not be playable at all, hopefully they learned from legacy

[slim dragon]

Also do you know why everyone played only the big guys on legacy ? It's because smalls had literally nothing going for them
They weren't fun in the slightest (assuming anything in legacy was actually fun)
No mechanics, no abilities, no specificities... only dryo had the marvelous ability of "afk in a bush, but you're literally impossible to find"
Which is already different in evrima

So the "apex plague" is much less likely to happen

[crude garnet]

Well one thing is certain

They will be alot easier to counter in this version of the game

[slim dragon]

Also legacy had some mechanics which favored apexes over everything else balance-wise

[fresh laurel]

I can see someone liking Utah pounce gameplay with packs over lets say Rex solo ambushing gameplay now in evrima

[fresh laurel]

what were those?

[fresh laurel]

I mean you wont see bary trying to kill a apex for sure

[keen plover]

In legacy, apexes could quite literally just alt turn and never have to worry about dying. Bad AI fed them when they were in a pinch and ambush mechanics let them catch their prey. In evrima, it won’t be surprising if Utah packs killed an apex. There might not be free AI for them like legacy and they will likely be slower than most things with no mechanic to help them ‘ambush’.

These few changes alone will bring down carni apex population

Also food values and hunger time leading them to needing a sizeable kill

[fresh laurel]

Oh yea I did forget about alt turn servers... How the game was intended to be played. Yea I can see how just being faster isnt enough to make you not play the big powerful carnivore

Legacy balancing was so dumb at the same time lmao. Rex face tanking Trike...? The Herbivore that has a armored face and is slower

[keen plover]

Yeah. Don’t get me started on giga alt turn. Dear lord. Rexes weren’t even that bad to deal with, it was the god damn gigas

You could potentially kill a Rex in groups of smaller carnis. Gigas??? Good luck

[fresh laurel]

Giga you needed to out number like crazy to even try

but a pair is gg

[keen plover]

They also had a chokehold on a lot of playables due to that trot. However all bipedal creatures can crouch, so that won’t be a risk for them at least

[fresh laurel]

Me as Giga trotting down an Allo that out stams me and out speeds

[keen plover]

Tbf, it’s not like they didn’t want ‘armour’ it’s just that the game had no locational damage and collision

[fresh laurel]

yet they could of made sure in stats that Rex couldnt beat a Trike by face tanking lol

[keen plover]

and it’s not like allo had a bad trot either. A bit cheap but I always tapped shift vs gigas as an allo to have a ‘faster’ trot without losing stam

[fresh laurel]

like Trike having higher hp to take more hits while rex takes sheer attack dmg and bleed dmg at the same time

[keen plover]

Trike having a 250n swing

[fresh laurel]

In Evrima I find that harder to do since for some reason devs dont give you the option to turn off auto tap sprint

[keen plover]

Yeah I hate that thing man

[fresh laurel]

Ikr

[keen plover]

What’s wrong with fine control???

[fresh laurel]

I try to do faster trots as Utah to avoid being out walk speed by some playables yet I go into a full sprint losing more stam...

like bruh

[keen plover]

I get the reason above, but also who cares? You’re still using your own stamina and regen to your advantage

(As in the reason I have with allo)

Like if I tap shift once every 5 seconds, what’s the issue?

It was essentially a system where you run slower and in turn have more stamina. I wish we had a system where you go from a jog (trot??), run and a sprint.

[fresh laurel]

I think its more of an oversight on how the new control would affect pvp

like it might seem helpful to some people that they can just tap shift to run instead of hold but then you ruin the fast trot technique

[keen plover]

Yeah. Me personally, I’ve been in a fight and tapped shift and ran a bit into something. I’m not sure what dev stance is on this and whether it was completely intentional and something they plan to give options for

[fresh laurel]

hopefully it can be asked one day

[half girder]

#balance-feedback message lmao wtf is that feedback

pachy headbutting charging is already dogshit, wdym more like carno's??

@gloomy robin

its a small not a damn truck dude

[keen plover]

So people are able to escape? 🤨

Fodder pachy vs Utah next

[hasty coyote]

imagine playing a pachy and having less agility than a dino who is stronger than you in every way and their main weakness is agility

[spiral girder]

@gloomy robin pachy doesn't need to have that change. You need to change how you fight it as a teno. Teno has decent bleed on their claws and pachy has crap bleed resist. Dodge their headbutt and claw the crap outta them, they'll die before you.

[dusky surge]

Takes 4 claws to basically kill pachy.

If they don’t die, they’ll be on the brink

And they’ll bleed like crazy

[hollow canyon]

I swear I've been playing a different game than all the people who say this.

Do you really think that Dilos and Utahs weren't played in the legacy? Because in my experience they were played a tonne. Utah might've been either the most common dino in the game or one of the most common ones.

[dusky surge]

@late bobcat i personally dont see what the issue is with cerato turning fast but we have no way of telling it it'll stay that way when it's added

[dusky surge]

also yea, dilo and utahs were everywhere

[hollow canyon]

I guess you could argue that the small herbivores weren't played much but to be perfectly fair - Pachy was goddamn awful and could be soloed by a Dilo while taking longer to grow than a MAIA which was a far better animal. Dryo was locked on most servers because it could break the game and that left us with Galli as the only small herbivore that was good.

Also what's up with people wanting to turn Cerato back into Torvosaurus that it used to be before its rework?

If I'm choosing Cerato I want to play Cerato not a completely different animal.

Speaking about suggestions like @slender kettle 's

[slim dragon]

They were played because they could kill apexes

[hollow canyon]

They could kill anything

it depended on the numbers and the situation

[slim dragon]

I haven't played legacy a lot, but all I saw was rexes and utahs
And when I watch videos it mostly includes rexes

[hollow canyon]

Well... if you didn't play it a lot then why are you making comments about it?

[slim dragon]

I only learned recently that carno and cerato were playable in legacy

[hollow canyon]

What you're saying simply isn't true

[slim dragon]

Also were acro and alberto in survival ? Cause I've never seen them either

[hollow canyon]

No

they were not in survival

both were broken

Acro was like a smaller Giga on steroids

it ran as fast as Utah and its ambush allowed it to catch every animal that wasn't Carno/Galli or an ambushing Utah

it also trotted faster than Giga

Alberto ran as fast if not faster than Dilo

these animals would've needed a general rework before being added to survival

Alberto was so not-ready that it couldn't even nest

iirc it was the last animal that was added to the game before the devs decided to create survival as a game mode

[late bobcat]

because Cerato is bigger than Utah. Bigger animal turns faster than smaller animal even it has stronger bite force is hell unbalance.

[hollow canyon]

Not if that bigger animal is slower

Carno will likely be turning slower than Allo/Alberto and there's nothing wrong with that

[dusky surge]

Thats hardly true at all. Carno will very likely be outturned by animals far larger than it, and that's fine. Utah is far more focused on an aggressive hunter playstyle whereas cerato is a slower, more defensive animal. It having a high turn radius to help guard its flanks would make perfect sense

[late bobcat]

thank you for reply! I don't think cerato is defensive animal at the isle. I played the isle long time but I saw many ceratos make group and killing carno, allo, utah. so Cerato's advantage is still guarded by grouping and bite force. giving them high turn is too enough. and There is still no bigger carnivore like rex right now. This is applies to all animals but if there is no big carnivore(rex,giga,spino etc), devs should give dinos status with according to it.

[dusky surge]

thats legacy

evrima cerato is advertised as a very different kind of animal

that scavenges, steals and defends corpses

[hollow canyon]

I mean... you could have Dryos group up and kill stuff too that wouldn't mean their offensive capabilities were good. Legacy Cerato was absolute trash at offense, borderline non-existent ambush and bleed coupled with atrocious bleed resistance. Really anyone dying to this animal in legacy should rethink their choices in life. Allo murdered Cerato, with alt turn you could probably take on more than one Cerato at a time as an Allo. If Carno died to Cerato that the definition of a skill issue.

Same goes for Utah really, the only situation where you can die to a Cerato as a Utah is if you're the one hunting it and it stays on the defensive.

If you die to it with Cerato attacking you - skill issue again

[late bobcat]

yea, I agree to it. but In most cases the Playstyles between just Dino and Player who control this dino will be diffelent things.

I still don't know how cerato status in detail dev decided so this is why I'm saying it

[keen plover]

I'd love to say that cerato is only a small tier bully, but from the trail cam video, I'm not so sure- since something about it made carnos move off a kill.

[hollow canyon]

we will see what Cerato does in the game, with that size difference it shouldn't be trying to mess with a Carno but if it has something that makes you not want to fight it like idk some septic bite or w/e else then it could be understandable why larger animals wouldn't want to mess with it.

[keen plover]

Idk if a septic bite would stop a carno from steam rolling a cera quickly

[hollow canyon]

it wouldn't but it could make it not worth fighting one

if the consequences you'd have to then suffer were bad and long-lasting enough it could make you just want to get the hell out in the first place

[keen plover]

True, but this would also imply that the cera player would be risking their life in hopes the carno player does decide to run off

Since yeah it's risky for the carno, but it can probably survive while you'll likely die

I still think we may get a larger cera

[hollow canyon]

sure but if the growth of Cerato is relatively much easier and faster than the growth of Carno then the Carno player might want to not risk this fight at all. Especially if this effect stacks up and the more you get bitten by Cerato the more sick you get.

It just wouldn't be worth it for Carno

There are also ways of making Cerato fight a Carno even if it's smaller but I think they might be too far into the development of Cerato for me to be throwing those ideas around

[keen plover]

Assuming juvi carni diets change though, since they will likely be similar in difficulty in growing and grow time. (although juvi carno being more viable since it's pretty much immortal to other species since speed).

[hollow canyon]

I disagree, I don't think they should be similar in grow time at all

I think Carno should have a far more hefty growthtime than Cerato

[keen plover]

Utah is currently 75 minutes tbf. I can see cera at 2 hours

carno is like 2 hours and 30 minutes I think?

[hollow canyon]

I'd personally put Carno at 2h30m with a perfect diet(the way it used to be back in the day) with Cerato being around 1h40m

Utah should be down to 60m, I think it was even meant to be at around that mark at some point not sure if that was changed or not

[keen plover]

Idk about lowering utah grow time, since its ability to punch up so much

It could be fine though?

[hollow canyon]

It's not that awfully good at punching up atm, if it performs too well in that department after eventually getting it fixes it can always be nerfed or just tinkered with.

I think it's way too pounce-centric

and I'm not a fan of it being a bleeder tbh but oh well

well to be perfectly honest I'm not a fan of Evrima's bleed in the first place

I think bleed should just lower hp, the idea behind legacy's bleed was good, it's just that the numbers were utterly ridiculous and awful

as in - each animal applied way too much bleed and they healed it way too slowly

this way the fights turned into - get the jump on your opponent, throw this many attacks at them then back off and wait for them to bleed out, instead of being long, endurance hunts where you'd have to repeatedly apply the bleed onto your opponent to weaken them enough to eventually bring them down

Having said all that I think that Utah should simply maul its opponents and go after their HP

[keen plover]

Yeah, I personally don't know how to feel about current utah. Short grow, bleed focused, big packs, high speed, agility, yet it being squishy is what stops it from being OP. The current playables are all kind of anti-utah, which makes it seem weak.

In the future with some ceratopsians and hadrosaurs, I can see utah being really good

[half girder]

for sure

pachy should take longer honestly

or utah take less

[rapid flicker]

@late bobcat Even a Puertasaurus should turn faster then carno

[dusky surge]

pue is not being added to EVRIMA :)

[late bobcat]

brachi might be added

[hollow canyon]

I mean Pue might not be the correct example but I think that pretty much all the theropods should turn faster than current Carno.

[dusky surge]

that'd be fair honestly

[slim dragon]

I'd like to point out that neither brachi or pue are theropods

[hollow canyon]

Pretty goddamn perceptive, ngl

I spoke about the theropods because I do think that certain other dinosaurs should perhaps turn slower than Carno - including some of the sauropods

[slim dragon]

Yeah I'm exceptionnally smart

[white cove]

evrima bleed's is certainly closer to your desired bleed usage, moreso than I personally think any number balancing could turn hp go down bleed into
though I understand your point

[slender kettle]

Because the current Cerato is absolutely useless and if it's slower and less maneuverable that Carno's and Utah's, it needs a way of fighting back.

[half girder]

brachi will do nice as free food

unless they don’t give it a slow ass stomp

[dusky surge]

ain't nothing killing an adult brachi so easily lmao

[half girder]

surely

me n my boys will shred it

dw mr cera in 2064 you’ll see us take it down once it’s added

[dusky surge]

massive doubt lmao

the HP alone on that thing would far destroy the biggest carnivore

[half girder]

pfffft

[dusky surge]

could probably trample a rex lmao

[half girder]

it def can

should be able to

[dusky surge]

nothing is gonna kill it so easily, unless it's literally a genetic monstrosity

[half girder]

😈

[dusky surge]

sauropods irl were literally fucking unkillable gods once adult lmao

you'd LITERALLY need a hypo or some shit

especially since brachi is almost 40 tons, compared to rex's 9 tons. Brachi would fucking destroy it simply by being

[half girder]

growth better be 10hrs

nothing more

[somber sphinx]

Just make it so that whoever wins is decided by where they are, like carno having the advantage in the open plains while cera has the advantage in the jungle. Lets not make it so that one of those animals win in both areas

[dusky surge]

10 hours sounds like perfect diet for a sauropod lmao

[half girder]

and maybe

nvm

[dusky surge]

the entire point of sauropods is killing them before they essentially reached godhood

[slender kettle]

The problem is that no one like being in the jungle.

[half girder]

ye

elder brachi…

1000hrs

[somber sphinx]

Dosent matter, we should def not bring back ceratorex

[half girder]

jungles are awful rn

[somber sphinx]

It was unbalanced as hell

[half girder]

like walking in poop

[somber sphinx]

Yeah jungle needs some love

[half girder]

really hope they edit the current map, why not just go small i don’t get these devs

thenyaw was so goooood

[somber sphinx]

Or just let jace rework the current map

[dusky surge]

thenyaw was bigger than this current map lmao

by a massive mile

[half girder]

it wasn’t perfect

not too big not too smol

ez 200 player map

imagine the volcano eruption

fffffuck

[dusky surge]

that would fucking suck

BoB-type bullshit

[half girder]

it would but it’d be dope

[slender kettle]

Unless you give it a nasty bite and some decent resistance to bleed, it'll be a pushover, and nothing will keep the Cano's from overpopulating. No one wants to be an animal that can't fight nor escape.

[dusky surge]

"lost my animal because extinction event"

[half girder]

lmao

why not lose 50hr elder to it?

[somber sphinx]

I just want cera to have better turn, bleed resistente and a decent bite so that it can fend of from carnos

[dusky surge]

BoB sucks and the weather system is a clear example of how you can fuck it up. Losing an animal to an RNG lightning strike, and the only ways to counter it is either staying completely still in a single area or investing in the "don't die instantly" perk is so cringe

[half girder]

true

went on the game with the new update

got bored just after spawning in

[slender kettle]

That's what I'm trying to say. I don't want it to dominate, but I want it to make Carno's and Tenato's think twice before attacking.

[somber sphinx]

And from the video it seems cera would have a spesial attack to make carnos think twise

[half girder]

this game needs more devs to speed up the development

best spot on the map is at swamp tbh, i went there today and it was so pretty

a cool towering rock in the center of a lake

great spot for ptera nesting tbh

[somber sphinx]

Wish there were more fish at the swamps

[half girder]

true

need more kinds of fish tbh

big ones like deino eats

[somber sphinx]

Or what sucho and spino would eat, like saw fish

That would be hostile to juvis

[half girder]

yes

[hollow canyon]

Current Cerato is useless for completely different reasons than turn rate.

It's actually more tanky and deals more damage than Carno, that doesn't change the fact that it's a useless piece of garbage.

Because those aren't the only things that decide whether an animal is good or not.

[hollow canyon]

it's not because it works on a completely separate "hp" pool.

The numbers for it are less scuffed than the ones for legacy though but that doesn't matter - the numbers for legacy's bleed got messed up with time, they haven't always been the way they are now.

[hasty coyote]

@twin oar The reason pachy's attacks are so punishing is because they have to be. A single utah pounce could be enough to bleed out a pachy. Even then, you generally need 2 raptors to kill a pachy. The alt attacks generally just end the fight right then, alt into a bash gives a free bone break and spam swinging does over half a utah's hp. If a utah can hit a single pounce and just make the pachy chase it, then the pachy bleeds out. So pachies need a way to force the raptors to back away with a single attack. Lastly, the balanceing of the game is "Cant fight? Run. Cant run? Fight." pachy belongs to the latter, it has less stam and is slower than a Utah, so it has to be able to fight off a utah or 2.

[twin oar]

If you compare Pounce AKA the buggiest thing in the game to Pachys alt attack though. Ones wayyyyyyy easier to land & sooo much more consistent.

[twin oar]

Landing one, instant 360 super stun that barely costs any stamina, shouldnt be game over. Not balanced imo

[hasty coyote]

theres a difference though, pounce is just bugged so we cant base balance off of bugs. Also, alt swing isnt a 1-shot, the raptor still has a chance to kill the pachy or run away. A pounce forces the pachy to kill the utah or be bled out

[hasty coyote]

it costs a decent amount of stam, especially if you can bait the pachy into swinging.

[twin oar]

If they land the alt attack, then hit you a few more times whilst you're super stunned. That gives you a leg break, then they can chase you down & kill you anyway.

[twin oar]

Even if you do bait them into swinging, 1-2seconds later they can use the alt attack again.

[hasty coyote]

only the bash does break damage, but I do understand that the leg break is very punishing

[hasty coyote]

then just bait them again until they stop swinging and pounce, very easy to bleed from there

plus, are you trying to 1v1 a pachy or do you have a pack to back you up?

[twin oar]

Pachy can afford to make so many mistakes vs a Utah, but Utah can barely afford any. With same weight & grow time.

[hollow canyon]

1v1 Pachy kind of just stomps Utah, even if you pounce it - it won't really matter if Pachy knows what it's doing.

[hasty coyote]

they do not have either of those, utah has a shorter growth time and is much ligher, utah is 250 while pachy is 500 iirc

[twin oar]

nope 450kg & 500kg, almost the same

[hollow canyon]

While testing this match up(probably the most buggy match up in the game btw, I don't remember a single fight where something didn't bug out). I've been pounced three times in one round and still won the fight.

[twin oar]

& if it is shorter, it isnt by a huge amount

[hollow canyon]

this is complete nonsense btw

[twin oar]

Look at it this way, Pachy lands 1 alt attack, then spams you whilst you're down. You'll be left with around 50% hp at most.

You get bit once by an adult carno, biggest* land predator we've got RN, & you'll have more than 50% hp left.

[hasty coyote]

i was that wrong then, havent checked the stats of utah much myself, but I have played the matchup as pachy

[hollow canyon]

Base growth times of both animals are the same and the weight difference is 50 in favour of Pachy(realistically probably solely so that Pachy doesn't get instagibbed by the pounce).

[twin oar]

essentially, blow for blow vs Utah, carno does less damage than a Pachy with that insane stunlock.

[hollow canyon]

Not exactly - Pachy only deals more damage than Carno by utilising its ram, alt attack deals less damage than Carno

[twin oar]

If they land 1 alt attack, then spam alt whilst you're stunned it'll be around 50% hp left (so 1 stunlock from 1 alt attack)

Carno bites you once, you'll have more than 50% left

not exaclty blow for blow, but since you're stunned on the floor unable to do anything, its free hits

[hollow canyon]

Oh you mean the full combo vs a single bite from Carno, then yea that's true but Pachy is defensive and can't really run at you and get you down on the ground if you're watching you're back. Carno meanwhile can and will get to you and murder you out in the open.

but yes it won't CC you with each bite

[half girder]

one pounce can heavily bleed a pachy

[hasty coyote]

my main point is that a utah can nearly kill a pachy with a single pounce and has the agency in the engagement, the utah can run whenever it likes, but pachy can not. So pachy needs a way to force the utah to stop attacking quickly.

[half girder]

even if it bucks, and if it run bucks thats more bleed

[hollow canyon]

As I said - I've survived 3 pounces during one fight before killing a Utah(ended up on 8% blood).

[twin oar]

Well then until Pounce gets some serious fixes & lands more consistently, I believe Pachy alt attack vs Utah should be nerfed.

Because Pounce just doesnt work half the time

[hollow canyon]

Getting pounced is bad but not as bad as getting hit by Pachy's attack as a Utah

[half girder]

fr? i rem bleeding out a pachy as a sub utah with 1 pounce and like 2 bites

[hollow canyon]

Those Pachys have had to be running around quite a lot

Note that I was fighting 1v1

[half girder]

he was, so was i

[hollow canyon]

Yea well that's its issue

[half girder]

he played very offensive

[hollow canyon]

if Pachy gets pounced it has to stay on the defensiv

[hasty coyote]

utah can still run (unless it gets its legs broken) after an alt swing. Pachy can not

[hollow canyon]

Well there's your answer -- he was just really really bad

[half girder]

pachy is built for anti utah so its understandable

[twin oar]

Problem is, landing that pounce is so difficult & risky compared to just hitting alt attack

[hollow canyon]

wdym? Alt swing gets you knocked down? How are you running while being CCed?

[half girder]

2 utahs easily kill 1

[hasty coyote]

i mean after it does the combo while you are down

[hollow canyon]

This is said about literally every animal

[half girder]

well its fact ig

[hollow canyon]

If you don't get your leg fractured but I don't see what that has to do with anything

You're not really outrunning a Utah as a Pachy in the first plae

and you shouldn't want to be running away either way

I'm not saying this match up is bad

I have no opinion of it and idc tbh

[half girder]

leg fracture utah still has a chance, dodge headbutts and itll be out of stam

[hollow canyon]

both are so buggy that they aren't worth playing imo

[half girder]

very true

[hollow canyon]

The kinds of stuff I've seen while testing Utah vs Pachy was just insane

I've ran this fight like 10 times and there was not a single time when something didn't bug out

[half girder]

utahs are super strong in groups pachy keeps them in check

[hollow canyon]

it was either the pounce going mental, Pachy's ram not landing at point blank range or Utah teleporting around

[half girder]

there a desync bug going on

where youd hit something but it doesnt reg

[hasty coyote]

After an alt swing, you can then bash the utah while its on the ground and get a leg break, which is a death sentence for the utah unless it has a pack.

My main point is the balance rule of this game "Cant fight? Run. Cant run? Fight." The pachy can not run in this battle so it has to fight off the utah.

[half girder]

as pachy u literally waste ur stam and as utah you just float

[hasty coyote]

pachy is still very fun personally, but thats because landing a break is just WAY too satisfying

[half girder]

pachy was over nerfed this patch for no reason

[hollow canyon]

They've buffed Pachy this patch if anything

[half girder]

its a bug

[hollow canyon]

that doesn't change its bugginess

I don't think the tap ram is a bug

[half girder]

hypno told me

its a bug

[hollow canyon]

Fair enough then

[half girder]

maybe something went haywire in the files and old ones replaced some

while they were testing ue5

[hasty coyote]

its mainly that they wanted to fix every issue people had in the begining up4, but in doing so it removed all the benefits to playing pachy and many herbivores

[hollow canyon]

well stuff like this just keeps on happening in this game's development

[half girder]

bring back old pachy and keep stun window, it was so fun

[hasty coyote]

i have said what I wanted for pachy many times (just look in balance feedback), and surprisingly some of it happened. they actually fixed the hitbox of ram

[half girder]

orrr keep current and lower stun window

i mean everyone complained about that

its way better now, sort of.

[azure crescent]

this is because the utah wasn't using bleed right, as it is a patience game, and it doesn't act on the spot

[hasty coyote]

Heres the issue with pachy:
anything you do to improve its defense will likely improve its offence.
anything you do to make solo pachy viable will make it stronger in packs and mixpacks

[hollow canyon]

Idk what you mean by "using the bleed right"

[azure crescent]

because they didn't wait (i assume) for your blood pool to go down and just kept on trying to attack you

[half girder]

very true, but look at carno

[hollow canyon]

No they waited for quite some time, this fight did last quite a bit

[half girder]

stego shouldnt even be in but..

[hollow canyon]

they repeatedly pounced me because I wasn't bleeding out

[half girder]

idk

[azure crescent]

i was wrong then

[hollow canyon]

You just can't move much as a Pachy if you get pounced but as long as you stay still for the most part you can live for quite some time

[azure crescent]

my bad

[azure crescent]

yeah most pachy players don't manage their blood right so i assumed you were on the offensive too

my mistake

[hasty coyote]

yeah, I can kill carnos atm with a leg break, but thats because the carnos are garbo and I know what I'm doing. I would have no chance against a carno that actually knew what it was doing. Also, carnos are almost never alone, which makes escaping them impossible as a solo pachy

[half girder]

yeah, really wish solo was more viable, why should i always have to group to play the game, before i was fine but now its just unfun

[hasty coyote]

thats just kinda the issue with pachy, its either way too scary in a group, or unviable as a solo. However, id prefer groups to be scary because anything can just run from pachies

[twin oar]

Keep the Pachy attack damage etc the same, just reduce the stunlock duration. Especially vs Utah

Vs Carno its not so bad, because carno can tank the hits more.

[half girder]

its anti utah.

its supposed to shut them down

[twin oar]

everything is anti utah

[azure crescent]

it's supposed to counter utah

[half girder]

i mean

yeah but..

[twin oar]

xD

[hasty coyote]

the issue with that is we only have 2 types of cc, knockdown or stun. Stun is way too short and would make utah only take 1-2 hits from an alt swing

[azure crescent]

the average utah should not be able to win against the average pachy

[half girder]

utahs can fight a stego pachy cant

pachy keeps them in check

in the future this utah will fight rexes, pachy will always run

[half girder]

yeah

maybe since pachy will hard dom smalls its growth time can be increased idk

[azure crescent]

2 utahs and 1 pachy is more fair but still kinda on the pachy's side

3v1 the pachy is dead

[half girder]

rn the game is so server sided

[azure crescent]

^

[half girder]

like theres no skill involved much atm, its rng lol