balance-feedback-discussion

[hollow canyon]

Yea I think Stegos, Carnos and Deino should be played solo at least for now

or at least their group limits should be hard-enforced

#general-feedback message

My suggestion as to how to hard enforce group limits

[waxen sail]

on servers this might be enforced but I take it official servers have no rules besides dont be racist

[hollow canyon]

Yea, I'm not talking about rules though

I'm talking about the game enforcing those limits

Read the suggestion I linked there, that's what I'd personally do to stop them from megapacking and encourage them to compete with each other

And just for the record - Carnos are no better and they have a far better scaling with numbers than Stegos do so that's the first animal I'd hit with this mechanic

[waxen sail]

I think I could see myself agreeing with that kind of mechanic for stupid big packs, if server size don't change

[hollow canyon]

I don't think server size changing would stop people from packing up into absurdly high numbers all the time, these three animals specifically need something to stop them from going over the limits all of them for different reasons really

Stegos's vulnerability just drops like a rock thrown into a lake when it starts herding up, especially into those high numbers, when I was playing Utah and packed up my pack didn't even want to go for 2 Stegos because they deemed it too dangerous

[waxen sail]

I mean if server size is bigger trying to avoid packs makes no sense, for apexes I get it no matter the size of the server

[vale harness]

nope. just mocking the devs. if balance is constantly being worked on, then why is there like 2-3ish patches every year. and why do they never actually balance the game? isn't balance supposed to be like a week or two apart until there is good balance.

[hollow canyon]

Carno is a small game hunter and that kind of specialist makes no sense in a pack - it eats small animals, a large pack shouldn't be able to maintain itself on small game. Furthermore the moment these guys start packing up their lethality just explodes.

[waxen sail]

If we had shants and camas packing it'd be quite unfair, like for rexes and gigas, but for stegos and carnos I'm not convinced

[hollow canyon]

Fighting one Carno is relatively easy, now if you have 4 of them circling around you with each one of them having the potential to knock you over

that's just pure cancer to deal with

[waxen sail]

yeah, reminds me of playing utah on legacy and hunting rexes

[hollow canyon]

Those animals won't be in any time soon, it will take years for SHant and Cama to come out

same for Giga

[waxen sail]

is there a list of which dino they plan to release in order ?

I'm a bit curious

[stark knoll]

No planned order outside of the roadmap

[waxen sail]

oh okok

[hollow canyon]

^

But the explanation I got from some mods and QA was that "it takes time for balance to be "discovered" e.g. the thagomizer biting was only discovered after a couple of months after the release of update 2

And yea we only know about the animals that are on the roadmap

We have iirc 9 more playables coming out in Evrima, then the rest seems to be planned for after Evrima becomes the main branch

But yea I'd say that it would be nice if we got some balance changes every month or so until its in the right place, keeping animals in a dumpsterfire for so long just feels bad

[vale harness]

i don't get it. every balance patch is a word for word shit show of whatever is in balance and feedback. how do they not find them if people won't shut up bout em

[hollow canyon]

Tinker with it, experiment with it and see where it takes us

[hollow canyon]

No, no, basically what was meant by that is that it takes time for us - the community - to figure out the balance of each patch

e.g. when update 3.5 came out it wasn't straight away clear that Deino could now 1v1 Stego

when update 2 came out people didn't know that Carno can solo a Stego by biting its tail

until a group of people figured out how to do all this stuff

[waxen sail]

Thinking about it, aken, if we were to push devs for an anti-pack it would beat the purpose of nesting for some dinos, which makes it a pack of 3 minimum 🤔

[vale harness]

yea we're about a month in and people all sorta sayin the same thing. revert carno buffs, nerf stego, change pachy and teno

[hollow canyon]

No, because juveniles are supposed to count differently towards group limits

[waxen sail]

2 adult stegos + the nested, and if they all stay together which kind of makes sense 5h later we got 3 adult stegos

[hollow canyon]

I disagree with reverting Carno buffs, I'd nerf it somewhere else if anything, I also disagree with nerfing Stego

Pachy does need straight buffs though

I'd revert its turn rate nerf too

Teno some QoL help to make tailslam better

but that's it

[vale harness]

i have no idea how carno was weak last update. its turning wasn't even bad, all you had to do was make some space between charges

[hollow canyon]

Last update I went 1v2 and 1v3 vs Carnos and won those fights decisively

I'm pretty sure it was trash

Although to be fair I haven't played Carno myself

[hollow canyon]

just to clarify - I was Teno there

[vale harness]

as everyone now would say "skill issue"

[hollow canyon]

it was pretty much the only animal I played on that patch and imo the one by far most worth playing

Idk if it was a skill issue tbh, with Carnos turn rate and Teno's damage output it was just really easy for me to drop them

the "skilled" Carnos in those fights were the ones that survived them

[vale harness]

it's a skill issue in this patch tho. what changed

carnos stronger?

tenos in carnos position

[hollow canyon]

Carno does have a shot at killing a Tenonto

And Teno doesn't dumpster multiple Carnos at once

I could die in this patch in a 1v1

it hasn't happened so far but it was close at times

[vale harness]

it did before. we all think of update 2 carno as like a lil overpowered. so now carno being clearly the strongest, just makes it "balanced"

[hollow canyon]

update 2 Carno was absurdly overpowered

much, much stronger than it is now

[vale harness]

i don't get how the fastest dino gets so much power. like i feel so bad for utahs. i dogged a pack of 12 as 1 carno

[hollow canyon]

It had better agility, better biteforce, needed less htk on Teno, had an absurd stamina

[dusky surge]

no? what kind of games is balancing every week or two lmao

[hollow canyon]

The one thing that was helping out Teno at the time was that it also had a higher damage output and it could 4shot Carno with headshots

[vale harness]

every other game makes the fastest dino have glaring weaknesses, but carno doesnt have that shit

[vale harness]

: | what my guy

you are saying all the games take 4 months inbetween balance patches?

[hollow canyon]

He's saying that changing balance every week or two would be too often

and I agree, that's too often

Every month would be ok imo

or month and a half perhaps

[vale harness]

right, and after you make a big patch, you follow that patch up with up to 5 other small patches tweaking stuff. you don't just leave

then, you leave for 4 months

[hollow canyon]

Wyatt, a serious question, do you feel that Tenonto currently loses to Carno 1v1?

[vale harness]

we got 1 patch that fixed juvie stam.... that's it

[hollow canyon]

Because I'm getting the impression that that's what you think

[vale harness]

yea, i do. if a carnos bad then it'll lose. but i don't like that the fastest dino should be able to fight every other mid tier and leave if it starts to get challenged

every other dino gets punished with death. and carno can just run

[hollow canyon]

Carno isn't going to fight any mid tiers, all the mid tiers are larger than it, it would take some serious skill issue on part of the likes of Allo or Styraco to die to a Carno

[vale harness]

mid tiers in game

everything besides stego deino

[hollow canyon]

I mean Teno at best might be considered a mid tier perhaps?

[spare badger]

Teno is the largest animal carno should be trying to fight in my opinion

[hollow canyon]

Utah and Pachy aren't mid tiers

[hollow canyon]

^ that and another Carno

[spare badger]

Ofc

Carnos prey: itself, stuff teno and smaller

[vale harness]

yea i don't think it's fair to have at best a 50/50 fight with a dino that's faster than you

tf is that. then we question whether or not it's too strong?

[hollow canyon]

Teno doesn't have "at best a 50/50 fight" with Carno atm

[vale harness]

what's your ratio

[hollow canyon]

I haven't lost a single time against Carnos so far in a 1v1

me and a couple of folks were running Carno vs Teno between ourselves some 20 times and Teno won every time

I was Teno most often there

[spare badger]

I think the MU is 50/50 rn cause of tenos weird stamina values, maybe 55/45
(Honestly it mostly depends on who gets more frames) (I get 15-30...)

[hollow canyon]

but still

I didn't win as Carno vs Doctor Nova either

[vale harness]

so when does it go from a skill issue to a balance problem. it seems like whenver teno is weak its skill. and when carno's weak it's balance

[spare badger]

What server do you go on to practice 1v1ing ppl?

[hollow canyon]

It was on Taco

We weren't practicing we were testing some Deino Stego stuff

and then decided to mess around with Carno vs Teno

I don't even consider myself a particularly good Teno tbh

If you want to call me a main of something I'm probably best with Deino of all things

despite the fact that I hate the animal

Gaming Para is really good with Teno on this discord

and he says it's just fine

I will need to ask him about how he fares vs Dashark this patch

on the previous one Dashark hasn't won a single time despite the fact that he's likely the best Carno in the community

so yea this really wasn't a fair match up before

[keen plover]

I’ve only beat para once as a Carno this patch. 2 carnos and you can reliably kill him. Last patch, 2 Carnos was still possible to kill for him

I’d argue teno is great 1 v 1. Yeah it isn’t as clearly favourable as before- but now you have an actual risk. Before it was like, ‘yeah it can kill me, but I’m not really scared’. You could juggle between 2 carnos easily

[dusky surge]

did you just say para

[hollow canyon]

Para is a person actually

he wasn't talking about the dinosaur

and yea I don't doubt you can kill most Tenontos reliably in a 2v1, that's hardly surprising

[keen plover]

Old tail slam teno could, but now it’s a tall order. Not 100% impossible but very, very unlikely

[hollow canyon]

The best I did was killing one Carno and swimming away from the other one when I was 1v2ing but tbh I do think that 2 Carnos vs 1 Teno is borderline impossible to win for Teno atm

not that I think that's bad, I find Teno beating 2 Carnos at once kind of ridiculous

it should have the advantage over solo Carno though to the point where most fights 1v1 end with Carno just tucking tail and running

[keen plover]

Carno players rarely run in a fight. They always end up dead leaving you more hurt. I personally wish carno players would run off after the first combo

[hollow canyon]

It depends, I sometimes had them run away, damn in update 4 they very often ran away without a fight to my initial surprise

then I realised why they were running when I fought more Carnos and realised how badly Teno outmatched Carno on that patch

[keen plover]

Yeah that was actually hell. Just tail slam galore. Get the first stun=you win. If they come back they’ll die. Was it possible to tail slam then to death though from full health? I don’t think I’ve done that

[hollow canyon]

Definitely possible on update 3.5, idk about update 4 though, I doubt it

I've only ever done that on update 3.5 but all the attacks I landed there were headshots and a Carno that walked up to me when I was sitting down just went down from 100 to 0 before it realised what was happening

[spare badger]

They would run more if carnos were hard to grow

[hollow canyon]

Idk, I think it's a matter of pride for some people

I've had them run away from me quite a lot on update 4

currently it's a 50/50 they sometimes run and sometimes they die

that's when they're solo... and they're rarely ever solo

[stable quest]

Teno shouldn't be able to kill 2 carnos (unless the carnos are dumb) but more beat them up. I fought a lot of 1v2s update 4 and i never really won but i sent them running away a few times, which is how it should be unless they decide to go back in and get themselves killed. Carnos only ever die if they decide to keep fighting a teno and continuously get themselves messed up. Teno is more of a I might not kill you and you might not kill me but you'll be the one at a worse disadvantage because you tried to mess with me and it felt like that more during update 4. Now if i see 2 carnos i have to book it and hide because teno is only really suited to 1v1s but like you said carnos are never alone.

[old hull]

fluff preaching that good word

see the trick is not to make carno not a cannibal , it being the fastest carnivore it kinda has to be otherwise nothing will actually be a threat , but any cannibal dinos should be forced to cannibalize instead of it being an option

tie 1 nutrient exclusively to cannibalism and they will become their own population control

that or reward those who do cannibalize with some sort of buff

[golden coral]

Isn't the problem that cannibalism leads to self sustaining populations? It won't help if you tie one nutrient specifically, it just means they will be fine with one nutrient and only survive on all the carnos that are around?

[hasty coyote]

id recommend not giving them a direct buff for cannibalism, it just makes it easier for them to kill other carnos and other dinos

[old hull]

atm yes sadly because of how shitty carnivore diets are , since you only really need 1 nutrient to be alright so my suggestion would not work , if the diets for carnivores were changed then it could

lets say carnos had to be on all 3 nutrients to be doing well , and only 1 of those is given from cannibalism they would be forced to kill eachother alongside hunting their usual prey

[golden coral]

Yeah, that might help. So far cannibalism do not seem to thin the population at all, for the two critters that are supposed to do so. :p

[old hull]

could use this same thing to maybe finally kill the horrid state of deinosuchus players where it is not all the hardcore difficult to grow apex alligator we said we would get , its just megapack fisheating simulator

[old hull]

indeed

[hasty coyote]

its more that carnos basically got a tripple buff, so now everyone picks them. Then they just swarm and eat thier dead, so the cannibalsim actually helps them now

if carno numbers drop, then the cannibalism will help limit their numbers more

[old hull]

carno rn has legit all the benefits and no downsizes , playing anything other then it is shooting yourself in the foot

sure you can pick a teno that has to travel and keep its diet up , or pick a carno eat 1 deer and sit in a bush for an hour

you can build up a utah pack and get some kills... or pick carno and do the exact same thing faster

its a damn shame , i actually enjoyed carno in the previous patch since it actually took a little bit of thought to use

[stable quest]

as an adult traveling is fine but as a baby thats just wayyyy too much and if u end up dying you lost a good 30 mins to an hour trying to grow because you had to travel the map

[old hull]

the herbivores having to travel is great , the trouble is the carnivores dont have to so they are much MUCH easier to grow

[hollow canyon]

@thin mantle Are you free right now?

[stable quest]

thats true, the amount of times i die to adult utahs and carnos as a baby is insane, i havent once come across a baby utah or baby carno while im growing because they can find anything to eat and be set til they hit 50-60%

[hollow canyon]

I doubly disagree with that(kind of)

[golden coral]

I do wish it was a bit less extreme, I'm not sure why we had to go from "oasis" to "migrate across the entire map". At least I would like dynamic diets while growing up, so you migrate more the older you get and more capable, if anything.

[hollow canyon]

As in - carnivores having this growth is kind of bad but herbivores having to travel is... well let's just say that "great" is just about the last word I'd use to describe that

[old hull]

il agree with that yeah , making herbivores travel is nice but its a bit too aggressive atm , for example i cant imagine keeping all 3 nutrients up while nesting if they stay the same

your just gonna run out of atleast 1 depending on how long it takes

[stable quest]

true

i personally don't mind running across the map to get my diet, but when nesting comes into play that might be the last thing i want to do especially if i have to constantly worry about my diet but i mean we'll see how it goes

[hollow canyon]

With carnivores the main problem is that the availability of their food is just really not dependent on them. Back before diets were a thing it worked as it should have - herbivores just had to find a bush and munch on it while carnivores had to hunt. The proportions were ok there but then we got diets and it's all upside down now

Ehhh... let me ask you this question: how much time have you spent running across the map for your nutrients?

Because I've done it so many times that I get nauseous just thinking about it

[stable quest]

thats just me personally, because i know the fastest route to take i play herb a lot so i've learned how to give myself the least amount of trouble when it comes to getting my nutrients

[hollow canyon]

Right but that doesn't answer my question

it typically takes me some 15-25 minutes to get a perfect diet

and that's the most boring 15-25 minutes I have to spend in the game

lately I've been rebinding my keys so that forward movement is on space so that I can put something on my keyboard and have my animal run on its own

[stable quest]

yeah then u have to worry about dying aswell, it really depends on how im feeling, if i really feel like growing an herb ill push through it but any other time i dont even wanna get on

[old hull]

that and back before we had diets they told us we would have 1-2 diet foods in an area and the third off somewhere so it wouldnt be too tedious , and now here we are

[hollow canyon]

I don't really have to worry about dying?

I think I've died once to an adult Utah as a fresh spawn Teno during all my trips

admittedly I took a bad route at the time cause I was impatient

after I make it all the way across the map it's just a complete afk-fest

[thin mantle]

Not right now, may be a few hours till I’m not busy. What’s up?

[hollow canyon]

Wanted to ask if you want to hop on Taco with me

[stable quest]

might just be me ive died a couple times even when im being careful i let my guard down for a second and all of a sudden a utah comes out of no where while im eating

[hollow canyon]

I want to see that thing you were talking about with Carno and Teno

the part about biting the tail

I was wondering whether there are carnos that can pull that off well enough to win a fight

but so far nobody could pull it off so

I want to fight someone who can do it

[thin mantle]

Oh I totally would later, I actually wanted to do some testing for my own comprehension unrelated to that but we can do that too. I’m genuinely hoping that I’m wrong and that my hitboxes were having strange server side shenanigans instead of actually being that viable

[hollow canyon]

I don't think it's possible to quite win a fight that way but I think you can get some damage off on the tailtip every now and then

although i'd personally probably not try tailslaming you if you tried that

[old hull]

still even if it is not a viable way for carno to kill teno , it still curbstomps it badly

[hollow canyon]

I'd just... you know move my tail away

What? Carno curbstomps Teno?

That's a big #doubt from me

[thin mantle]

Mhm so would I, I listed it as a thing that people could do mostly. Because it does put the Carno within range for a hit but the turnout allows you to avoid it if the server doesn’t bug out

Can we test it later? Or are you gonna be out

[thin mantle]

Lol nah

[hollow canyon]

Hard to say, I might be gone after a couple of hours

[thin mantle]

I’d argue that Carno is a bit too competent against teno rn but it doesn’t destroy it

[hollow canyon]

I can't say I'm supposed to be doing something tomorrow and it's getting late-ish

I mean in my experience Tenonto wins this handily 1v1

[hollow canyon]

Wanna have a go at it? Maybe you're better than Carnos I fought so far

[old hull]

oh i doubt it , i barely play the damn thing

[hollow canyon]

I'd like to fight some good Carno and I don't see Dashark on here lately

I've won against every Carno I fought so far

and typically I win by a large margin

in my experience this fight should realistically end with Carno retreating most of the time but a lot of people in the game like to be sent off to the character select soooo

that's how I get pictures like these

[old hull]

i had only played carno once during update 4 thats about it , i have put a few hours into pachy in this version and i was not happy with its changes (duh they suck)

[hollow canyon]

Pachy is trash so is Utah these two animals are so bug-ridden it's insane

I've tested Pachy today a bit and it's a joke

The ram is such a buggy piece of garbage its insane

[thin mantle]

I could try? Not the most competent Carno but then again I haven’t really had a good test of my skills with it lately

[old hull]

pretty much , and the ram is all you have too

[hasty coyote]

today, literally 5 of my rams in a row did nothing

[hollow canyon]

Sure but as I said I don't think I will be available in a few hours

I mean I might stay on but I was technically supposed to go somewhere tomorrow

[hasty coyote]

i hopped off because i was fightng like 5 carnos too and just crying on a rock

[hollow canyon]

at the same time I'm expecting a package to come so I probably shouldn't be leaving the house

[thin mantle]

Shit, well I can be back at my pc within the next 1-2 if that works?

My minimum is one

[stable quest]

lmfaoo sounds like my average teno gameplay

[hollow canyon]

up to you, tag me when you're available, if not we can do it some other day

[hollow canyon]

A couple of comments about the ram

for starters - this ability misses if you use it at point blank

you will just do nothing if you're really close to your opponent

[thin mantle]

Yep will do 👍

[hollow canyon]

you have to RELEASE it before you reach the enemy

[hasty coyote]

that rock you have to jump on at NW? because i just stockpile cocos there and live ther lol

[hasty coyote]

oh yeah i know, trust me i play pachy a lot, got my skull to basically black multiple times

[hollow canyon]

secondly - if you release it while looking downwards - it just cancels itself

I see, well basically this animal is a joke like not even in terms of balance but in terms of how its designed

[old hull]

yeah pachy atm feels slow , chunky and unresponsive , how a creature half the size of carno feels much slower then it is incredible lol

[hollow canyon]

the issue with it and Utah are the collisions

[stable quest]

i get bullied at swamp by 3-5 carnos if im alone i just sit on the dam until they leave or im healed enough to keep fighting

[hasty coyote]

i hit them, heard the crunch, but neither my stam dropped or the carno moved

[stable quest]

i havent been to nw in a while i cant stand the frames..

[hollow canyon]

I know it just needs a straight up buffs to agility

it plays like a dumpsterfire rolling downhill

I'm not playing this thing in survival unless someone pays me to do that

[hasty coyote]

nah, its pretty fun still, they just ruined the ram this update, so now i have to cry on rocks

[hollow canyon]

I'd honestly just remove the backswing on ram for now

[hasty coyote]

you mean the alt attack? or the turn around?

[hollow canyon]

this thing is so unreliable that you shouldn't be forced to stop in place after you use it

[old hull]

pachys ram also feels like it was designed to be used against targets that are not moving... even tho both of its predators are fast and agile

[hollow canyon]

Nah, backswing is the animation that plays and locks you in place after you use the ram

[hasty coyote]

oh you mean that, yeah it wasnt there last update

[hollow canyon]

It was there

[old hull]

pachys stamina as well is sooooo shitty , you are constantly running out of stam

[hollow canyon]

I can assure you of that, it was there since the beginning on the QA

[stable quest]

question, does the ground smack for opening coconuts do damage to players aswell?

[hollow canyon]

Yesn't

It does damage if you can use it

but half the time it will just cancel the ram completely

[hasty coyote]

hah, i have rammed multiple carnos directly in the thigh because they were afk or just not looking, always rib breaks

[stable quest]

alright because i swear ive tried to use it so many times and it feels like it doesnt do damage or yes, it just cancels the ram

[hasty coyote]

yeah, but not enough to care

[hollow canyon]

I'm pretty sure I've managed to deal damage with it

[old hull]

lucky you , i cant even get any fractures at all anymore lol

il ram carnos 2-3 times and they just sit there not giving a shit

[hollow canyon]

I've managed to get two leg fractures when I was testing it vs Carno

[stable quest]

i had a pachy with me that rammed a carno once in the side and it got a leg fracture somehow

[hollow canyon]

but there's a general issue with the locational damage in the game

[hasty coyote]

yeah, perfect diet carnos have to take 2 hits to break something, which is bs imo, but otherwise you have to charge it all the way up

[thin mantle]

Diets don’t affect your resistance to fracture damage

Unless they do and I’ve just missed something

[hollow canyon]

So for example - if you're a Tenonto and you start tailslaming something over the body half the time if not more the game will register that as leg damage

[hasty coyote]

they do for carno, if you hop on that server, test it

[hollow canyon]

that's where the myths of "Teno takes 10 tailslams to kill Carno" come from

[hasty coyote]

i promise it takes 2 hits if they have full diet

[old hull]

sounds about right lol

[hollow canyon]

In reality it needs 8

or 7 and a clawswipe iirc

or 7 and 2 bites

[old hull]

so any experienced tenos here , how do you fight carnos now?

[hasty coyote]

dont get me started on how the carno charge and pachy ram interactions makes a head-on collision break both of your legs

[stable quest]

@hollow canyon another question, is it just me or did tailslams never seem to hit in update 4? i have a clip of me kicking a carno to the ground and slamming its head twice but it taking no damage

[hollow canyon]

no idea, that's weird tailslams worked just fine for me

[old hull]

ah yes , if i headbutt a wall il break my knees

[hollow canyon]

kick is your best friend

so basically what I do is:

[old hull]

so tailslam is just a no go now i assume

[hollow canyon]

you only ever tailslam if you're above half stam

if you're below - forget this attack exists

I turn walk on most of the time, it increases stamina regen by a lot

[stable quest]

i havent tail slammed at all this update also because im trash at hitting it since i havent played it in a bit..

[hollow canyon]

I only trot when I want to move faster

[thin mantle]

Completely dodge charges, reject advances with tail slam then get at least 2 kicks or claws on its head while the stun is active, rinse repeat

[old hull]

wait thats a thing? you regen stam faster by walking?

[hollow canyon]

duh

[stable quest]

and standing still

[hollow canyon]

sitting>standing>walking>trotting

the differences are big

[old hull]

how long as this been a thing?

[hasty coyote]

i hate how inconsistent it is. 4/5 times you break your ribs, and they lose their skull. then RNGesus decides "Nah fam you die" and breaks your legs

[hollow canyon]

Since... forever

I tested it on update 3 to check the differences

[stable quest]

i never realized standing still regens ur stam pretty fast i get so caught up in fighting i dont think to chill for a second and stand still haha

[hollow canyon]

and they are LARGE

[spare badger]

How big is the difference between walking and trotting

[thin mantle]

Since launch

[old hull]

damn , good to know

[hollow canyon]

iirc it was something like 180 seconds walking, 270 seconds trotting

[thin mantle]

Less movement = better regen

[old hull]

again arent we all glad the game explains its quirks to us

[hollow canyon]

for full regen on Utah

I might be wrong with exact values, I've checked that ages ago

I might test it again, but trust me that it makes a tonne of difference

secondly- about Teno vs Carno, when Carno is running at you but can't charge because e.g. it's turning or something - you want to bodyblock it

[stable quest]

i heard this from a teno i was playing with but can u bleed out a carno with only the claw slash attack? like if they dance around you for too long without attack after u hit them do they have to go and heal it off?

[hollow canyon]

if it comes to a stop you can easily kick it

then you just go medieval on its face

Carno dies to 5 kicks to the face

[thin mantle]

The game could definitely use some more info given to the player, at the very least all your attack values instead of just bite

[hollow canyon]

Kicks deal a tonne of bleed, they deal much more bleed than Carno's bites do

[stable quest]

oh good to know i didnt know the exact amount

[hollow canyon]

tailslams are also 5 btw

if you can land 5 headshots with slams - you kill a Carno

[stable quest]

oh damn, didnt know that either

[hollow canyon]

but kick is better

[stable quest]

guess i better practice my tail slams again just in case

[hollow canyon]

just outright vastly better because it costs much less stamina and causes bleed

[stable quest]

how many kicks can u perform before u run out of stam?

[old hull]

https://tenor.com/view/the-studio-taking-notes-paying-attention-interested-gif-17315574

[hollow canyon]

nah, I typically only tailslam either when Carno'd already left my kick range if I can get a cheeky slam at the end

[hollow canyon]

I think it was 20? I've tested it a long time ago so I'm not sure

but much more than slams

so aside from that - if Carno is trying to be cheeky and stays away from the kick but in the range of your slam

if you land the slam - you turn away and clawswipe it

[thin mantle]

Aken do you know teno’s current spam damage, roughly ofc

[hollow canyon]

in general if it's not in range of the kick

You mean for the slam?

[stable quest]

those cheeky slams are so satisfying to hit

[hollow canyon]

I test stuff

slam does roughly 250 dmg atm

kick does somewhat more but I haven't checked the exact value

[stable quest]

wait really? i thought they nerfed it to 180

[hollow canyon]

it's less than 300 though

[hollow canyon]

No... this is a myth

[stable quest]

WHAAAAAT

[hollow canyon]

People say that because they test it by tailslaming Carno over the "body"

[stable quest]

well thats another good thing to know

ahhhh i see

[hollow canyon]

they end up hitting legs which take less damage

and then they think they need 10 slams=180 damage on the tailslam

[thin mantle]

That’s about what I thought it was, I haven’t done any testing in ages for basically anything so I wasn’t sure, so thanks!

[hollow canyon]

which is wrong anyways, you'd need more than 10 if it was 180 damage

in general - if tailslam dealt 180 damage

you wouldn't even kill a Carno if you unloaded your whole stamina pool on it with the tailslams

Teno is a very specific playable and it takes some figuring out to play it correctly

especially now

prior to the last patch this animal was all about tailslamming if you could land those tailslams you'd pretty much win every fight easily

[stable quest]

thats why i enjoy it so much, ive played it probably more than anything else, i dont think ive touched carno at all

[hollow canyon]

atm it has to do some more things

I play it the most on this patch

and I haven't enjoyed it this much yet

I do agree certain aspects of it could use some help

tailslam is too costly imo

[hasty coyote]

"Updated damage for Charge vs Ram impact" that is what they said when the reworked the whole interaction. Instead of pachy just completely losing, it causes both of them to break a bone

[hollow canyon]

that damage output just doesn't justify the stamina cost

but other than that this animal is actually really good

I'd like tailslam to be more usable because it gives Teno player more options as to what they can do

atm I only ever tailslam if I have a tonne of stamina and I want to dish out some additional damage on Carno

or if I can land an attack on more than one person at once

still - need to have more than half the stam

If you're playing Teno you're a man(woman?) of culture but it does take some effort to learn to play this animal properly and utilise it to its full extent

[old hull]

which still means pachy loses cuz carno can just limp walk after it and kill it haha

might as well had done nothing at all

[stable quest]

i love teno even if im not the best at it, it has so many options of attacking that makes me want to get better at it

[hasty coyote]

most the time it breaks the pachy's ribs and the carno's skull, which I do like. but it randomly breaks your legs depending on the angle you hit at

[hollow canyon]

and Teno is also the one animal where you see the biggest difference between one that is really good with it and one that's really bad

[old hull]

ah alright

[thin mantle]

High skill floor

[hollow canyon]

Exactly

and I think this is fine?

There should be animals that are harder and those that are easier to play

Teno by its very design is in the former category

Also - Teno's capabilities increase when you're wading

[hasty coyote]

maybe not so much with the current roster, its the only herbivore that doesnt get 1-shot or 1-shots everything. They should just decrease the skill floor slightly

[hollow canyon]

if the fight is taking at the swamp and you force your opponent to wade you pretty much instawin the fight because they can't freely run away from you

[stable quest]

i enjoy that about it, you cant play it expecting to be able to defend yourself and if you dont know how to and a carni realizes that you're in big trouble

[hasty coyote]

im not saying make it able to face tank things, but make it slighly more forgiving

[old hull]

teno having a high skill ceiling is great , ive always really enjoyed playing it , the issue is when carno which is faster and therefore always the aggressor can equal or outmatch you in power when only using 1/10 of the skill

[hollow canyon]

I've defeated a Utah pack while being on a last smidge of health

I really don't think that Carno is equal to Teno in a fight

Idk, I might've not fought a good Carno yet

[stable quest]

damn i wasnt as lucky as u, drained all my stam by the time i knocked them down

[hollow canyon]

but if they are at 1/10th of my skill I'm quite confident I can wipe the floor with them

No, basically what I was saying there was

I was on the swamp after fighting a Carno

[hasty coyote]

basically same reason I enjoy pachy, when its ram isnt completely busted, If carnos/utahs come near, its their problem they now lack a femur or a skull

[old hull]

just looking at its toolkit , it should be , it can do an almost equal amount of damage then tenos tailslam for free , it has the charge which if landed can do enourmous damage and it can leave the fight at anytime

[hollow canyon]

and a Utha pack showed up

[old hull]

its speed is the real thing , if carno wasnt so fast its brute strenght would be A ok with me

[hollow canyon]

I moved to deeper water and they all just died trying to fight me there

Carno really doesn't do equal damage to Teno, I can assure you of that

a Carno that tries to brawl with Teno just dies

I think I only fought one guy who tried that really hard

he ate 3 kicks to the face and just keeled over

[old hull]

for sure yeah but its not too far from it , and it can do it with 0 cost of stam , meanwhile both of tenos damage dealers take quite alot of it

[stable quest]

im honestly a little more scared fighting a utah pack than carnos, i got jumped by probably 8 of them and couldnt do anything because i got pounced and had no stam

[old hull]

and as a teno you cant just away , you fight or die

[hasty coyote]

the issue is it has no weaknes other than rocks or a skill issue. Faster than everything, strong as or stronger than most things, and basically as manuverable as them all

[hollow canyon]

nah, the kick takes very little stam

teno can run away but it has to use water for that

and yea Carno can track it but

[hasty coyote]

but thats croc territory

[hollow canyon]

that's a problem with tracking in general

it needs a nerf

That's true there's some risk to using the water

[old hull]

oh yeah the tracking system straight up sucks , its almost wallhacks

[hollow canyon]

but tbh I've never died while using it mid fight

[old hull]

atleast the old tracking required you to actually follow the steps , this new one litterally has an arrow telling you where to go lol

[hollow canyon]

I did die like twice as Teno to crocs while traveling(best death was on an almost completely empty server, I was about to log out, Deino caught me and released me and I got to experience Deino space program)

[old hull]

why not just put a marker on my prey at that point

[hollow canyon]

To make it completely clear - I think that this level of tracking is alright but

[stable quest]

ive probably died more to deinos than anything else as teno..

[hollow canyon]

not for every carnivore

[stable quest]

i go afk for 2 minutes in a bush and they somehow always find me

[hollow canyon]

only certain specific carnivores should get tracking this good e.g. Cerato

[hasty coyote]

I was a pachy literally broke a carno's face and ribs, used the rest of my stam to run into the forest. he tracked me all the way there, with his bones still broken, before my stam was even full. I escaped still, but the fact he tracked me is insane

[hollow canyon]

Carno shouldn't track like at all

[thin mantle]

I’d prolly make this level of tracking the absolute best tracking can possibly be

[old hull]

there is only easy fix to the tracking , put the damn mud back at the rivers

[hollow canyon]

^^^

Idk why they removed that

[old hull]

rn it has no counterplay , if your dino cant crouch you will die to your pursuer

[hollow canyon]

I don't remember the last time that I wallowed

[stable quest]

the mud on the riverbanks was lovely, but now u have to know exact spots that most of the time u wont even be able to get to

yeah i havent wallowed at all

[old hull]

i have no wallowed for its purpose once since they removed it from rivers , i sometimes wallow just for the lols if i happen to walk by a mudpool

[stable quest]

same

[old hull]

removing the mud from rivers was such a dumb thing , it gave deinosuchus more chances to hunt too

[stable quest]

it was always nerve racking wallowing near the river, never knew if one would come out and get u, but now on top of that no longer being a thing people have found glitched drinking spots

[spare badger]

Aken, do you use default controls when you play teno?

[hollow canyon]

Yea

I haven't tinkered with the controls until recently

and I only change them for a few minutes while afk-traveling

then I get back to default

[old hull]

if a carno hits a charge on a teno , how much dmg does it do roughly?

[hollow canyon]

Iirc it does around 300dmg

but I haven't tested it thoroughly

note - I typically don't get hit by charge so I'm saying the value based on what I've heard

and charge works with locational so if you get hit on the tip of the tail you won't take much damage

[spare badger]

If you get hit by charge you will lose a lot of health since they will probably get 2 headshots

[spare badger]

Iirc it 1 shots Utah with a headshot so that sounds about right

[hollow canyon]

Yea with a headshot

although I'd say that landing 2 headshots would be difficult, Carno has to stop and turn around and then aim two bites onto the head on top of that

it's doable but depends on the circumstances

and at what angle you got hit

you don't want to get hit by the charge in general

but it's also really easy to dodge it so I personally don't have much of a problem with it

unless I do something dumb like fighting a pack of 4+ Carnos

[spare badger]

Usually they aim for the head
They don't always hit it though
So a charge will yield anywhere from 650 damage (all body) to 975 (all head)

Assuming they bite you twice when you're down (they usually do only 2 and run after that)

[hollow canyon]

Carno can do only 2 bites, if it does more it gets hit

and that's at most

[spare badger]

Yea that's why

*any carno with a brain
Some do 3 and get kicked in the face

Basically, don't get hit by it

[spare badger]

How much DMG reduction is on tail hits (base and tip) ?

[hollow canyon]

depends on the animal that gets hit

they have different multipliers iirc

the tip is typically 0.1 and the base is 0.25 iirc

[spare badger]

For teno?

I'm asking cause when I got charged in the tail it seems like it did more than one bite
And I wanted to confirm or deny that suspicion

[hollow canyon]

I'm not sure about Teno

those values are for Utah for sure

I'm on the fence about Teno and I think it may have a higher multiplier on its tailtip

[spare badger]

Also, Taco is the free grow server yea?

[hollow canyon]

yea

I mean, not exactly

Taco is a server where they give admin privileges to people that ask for them so they can grow whoever and so on

[dusky surge]

@fossil sun i dont even think dryo needs a buff, i just think it needs something to DO. You can buff it as much as you want but it'd remain pretty bland with its current design

i'd honestly advocate for giving dryo more shit to do, because atm, it's pretty well balanced, just unbelievably dull with what it can do compared to the rest of the roster

[fossil sun]

Still think dryo would be a buff because it’s a buggy creature rn

[dusky surge]

if its a buggy creature, wouldn't you want a bugfix rather than a buff?

[fossil sun]

I mean yea but both would be better

At this point I don’t even know what I am trying too say

[dusky surge]

idk man, if it could burrow, or if it could have really good night vision when update 5.5 rolls around, anything, i'd be happy

[fossil sun]

I agree

It needs something to stand out instead of just a regular base dinosaur

[fossil sun]

Same and it’s confirmed too have burrow

[alpine plover]

Has it been proposed that the Utah's pounce cause a blurring effect ? If the blood loss is high enough, it would be logical to cause this effect. Some dinosaure might be more sensitive to it than other.

[dusky surge]

why specifically utah tho

[alpine plover]

because the pounce purpose is to make the victim bleed a lot

[dusky surge]

so why not have it be a bleed effect lmao

[lusty berry]

Because he wants to specifically buff utah and nothing else, and with a pretty nutty type of buff too... Obscuring vision is super strong and not really necessary on a single dino but better as a low blood meter effect.

[alpine plover]

it make sense for other too. But yes Utah right now are low, but i said blurring, not obscuring. The impact is far less important

[lusty berry]

Blurring vision is obscuring vision, It's not seeing something the way you should.. thats 1.. 2.. Utah just need a bug fix, they are fine. This has been discussed many times in here and many times it always comes down to the same thing of "We don't want Update 2 Utah" Giving them along this blurring the vision status doesn't HELP utah at all. least not in the way you intend. instead it ends up with a problem where you can't tell whats in front of you because a single raptor managed to bleed you. makes you easier to hunt, impossible to actually escape danger because even in Carno's case you can run right into a Deino's mouth. Honestly? this would even destroy Stego because they wouldn't know where to aim their tails. It would be better as a very low bleed effect but not specifically for Utah.

Also I loved the convos from yesterday about Teno's skill floor to ceiling. because that difference is actually great to see in a design at times because you don't mindlessly win fights. Good Tenos will ALWAYS get my props.

[hollow canyon]

Utah is "fine" as in - the animal's stats are ok, but it's such a buggy piece of garbage that it's just not worth playing.

Same goes for Pachy

I've ran the Pachy vs Utah fight some... 10 times yesterday I think?

The number of times where everything worked as intended was equal to a fat, round 0

One of the two had to bug out

EVERY
SINGLE
TIME

[unborn iris]

Utah with working pounce is fine. Pachy is fine, MAYBE a slightly longer cooldown on the alt bite or a higher stamina usage, not sure.. Think carno needs to lose some of the acceleration and standing turn rate.

Think I'm about to start playing some teno to get a feel for it. Actually liked the teno vs carno matchup in testing. Always felt one-sided when I played carno.

[hollow canyon]

I don't think that Pachy is fine, I'd buff its turn rate while ramming, probably the running turn rate by a smidge too, maybe increase the blunt damage too so that it can fracture Carno's body with one ram

[unborn iris]

But teno can body a carno.

[hollow canyon]

Wanna try 1v1ing me?

[unborn iris]

I have gotten fractures in one hit on pachy. I'm not really sure what's going on with it. It's not supposed to be RNG, but it does feel inconsistent at times.

[hollow canyon]

I'd like to play against someone who feels confident with Carno

[unborn iris]

Teno should win a 1v1, from my experience.

[hollow canyon]

explanation - depends on the locational area you hit and how long you charged the ram

[unborn iris]

I just mean in-game, I always felt like carno dominated teno. But I think it's just more situational and player-dependant.

Now that I've actually played some teno in testing.

[hollow canyon]

if you hit the body - you won't fracture it with one hit

I've played Teno in survival and I've won every 1v1

[unborn iris]

Yeah

[hollow canyon]

as Carno I've 1v3ed and 1v2ed Tenos

but that means nothing, Teno literally has a much higher skill floor and people are just bad with it

[unborn iris]

For sure.

[hollow canyon]

hell most people are bad with Deino which is imo a much simpler animal to play

I really think that the game has to be balanced around everyone playing their animals optimally

[unborn iris]

Agreed

But then you have to ignore ALOT of feedback.

[hollow canyon]

Well yea, that's what I'd do, the people that have problems just seriously have to learn to play, idk maybe we have to wait for some youtubers to do some guides on how to play the animals like Teno

I'd honestly make that myself but I can't even dream about recording fights in Evrima on my PC

I already play on everything turned to the lowest settings and it works rather poorly half the time

I think Teno vs Carno is where it should be, it's in my experience heavily Teno favoured 1v1, Carno does have a chance but it's difficult against a competent Tenontosaurus, 2v1 Carnos win against it handily though

and honestly that's how it should be in my opinion

[unborn iris]

I agree, carno can disengage at any point. And one bad engagement isn't death.

It's a good matchup, it's fun on both sides, to me.

[hollow canyon]

Same

I like it, probably more than I did on 3.5

The fights last longer, Carno doesn't annihilate Teno if it lands the charge and Teno doesn't end the fight in a single combo either

yesterday I was trying to do a cheeky tailslam on my friend who was charging me

my timing was off and he hit the charge but I still won the fight

I did lose quite a bit of health though, I don't recommend letting them land the charge

I'm really glad they lowered the damage of both Carno and Teno in general

the two animals that I have an issue with are Utah and Pachy as I said

I think the whole rest works fine

Btw have you not experienced all this weird stuff with Pachy's ram just phasing through things or canceling itself?

Because I'm quite certain that if you try to attack with it at point blank it just goes through the target

the hitbox of it is most likely in front of Pachy and if you're too close it just doesn't affect the target

that's my working hypothesis

[unborn iris]

The tail shot thing. They just made tail shots not stun or fracture for everything. Utah can no longer latch a pounce on the tail, so you get the bugged animation when you hit tail. Teno and carno can't stun on the tail anymore. Pachy can't stun or fracture on the tail, so they will get a bugged animation like they got knocked down and still moving away, but on their screen they're not down.

And they made pachy ram server side hit detection. Almost 90% sure. That's why you are having so many issues like with pounce.

It was the only server side hit detection ability before.

[hollow canyon]

oh... so those bugs happen when you attack the tail?

[unborn iris]

Which is why it's been so fucked

[hollow canyon]

Definitely ^ I've noticed yesterday that I tried ramming Utah mid air, Erik who was the Utah there said that from his perspective I didn't ram while he was pouncing in effect what happened was that he landed the pounce even though from my perspective ram should've hit him mid-air

I will test the stuff with the tail

[unborn iris]

Yeah, pretty sure that's the issue with bugged pounces and rams. There's still an animation for hitting them. Just bugs

[hollow canyon]

Ugh, Idk if ram is as buggy as pounce is then I have severe doubts as to whether Pachy can be balanced at all

[unborn iris]

Yeah

[hollow canyon]

Utah is in an awful state because of this and it has been like this for a long time now

[unborn iris]

But the alternative is a client side version of both of those.. which can be really frustrating too.

[hollow canyon]

more than half a year

[unborn iris]

Hopefully they can figure it out.

[hollow canyon]

Although I stand by the fact that I'm quite certain Pachy's ram's hitbox is a bit weird

because we were testing this on a standing target and the attack just phased through it

[unborn iris]

Yeah, there's definitely some wonkyness with it.

[hollow canyon]

there's also an issue that the ram gets cancelled if you look downwards with it at times

[unborn iris]

Like sometimes if you're too close you phase through, like utahs pounce.

[hollow canyon]

*most of the time as a matter of fact

yea

[unborn iris]

Have you noticed the coconut smash does damage and fracture now?

[hollow canyon]

Yea, I've used it yesterday

When it worked it fractured the Utah

although it was a body fracture - I just kept on getting bodyfractures on the Utah the whole time

which is really weird btw

if you try tailslamming a Carno or Pachy or Utah as Teno and aim for their body and the attack lands on the hind-portion of torso and belly where the legs are

that will register as a legshot

and yet on Pachy it's almost as if it was the other way around

if you attack the legs and that whole part of the body you deal a body fracture

I've managed to leg fracture a Carno twice by ramming its legs from the front

I might do some more testing but

tbh the game is just so buggy and works in such an unreliable way that sometimes it makes me feel hopeless

the sound was also gone half the time when I was testing stuff yesterday

all the attacks just didn't give any audio feedback

[unborn iris]

Yeah, and knowing you're not actually hitting where you see yourself hitting, makes it feel really random in-game.

[hollow canyon]

exactly

[half girder]

not an issue lol, thats how u cancel it

looking up does it too, though id rather press a key to stop

[hollow canyon]

Oh so that's intentional

Honestly after testing Pachy more - body fracture should be gone, at least for now, they should just leave leg fracture

even if you hit body

Leg fracture landed just once when I wasn't even aiming for a leg

[half girder]

what..

why should it be gone?

[hollow canyon]

The locational in the game is just absolutely awful

Because body fracture is prioritised over leg fracture

even when you clearly hit legs

If hitboxes work this poorly the devs should make it so that hitting fully charged ram gives a leg fracture so that Pachy can work

[half girder]

yeah..

its rng

[hollow canyon]

Just remove body fracture for now and make it so that there's just leg and head fracture unless they can fix this

but I doubt it will be fixable

also - they should change the locational prioritisation

currently AoE attacks that hit body and legs count as leg hits

that makes tailslam even worse than it should be normally

and that's why people say that it takes 10 to kill a Carno - they keep landing legshots even though they're clearly attacking body

I know that 3.5 was messed up with how you could bite a head of something through its entire body but that doesn't mean that legs should be prioritised now, it just makes most sense that if you hit multiple body parts with an attack then it counts as a body-hit

at least if you ask me

unless it works like that for some other reason that I'm not aware of

[lusty berry]

maybe it'd be better if certain rams were more prioritized towards certain fractures when you hit from the side?

Like charged rams could be better at breaking legs if it reads further back on the body?

Aken I agree with the body shot on AOE instead of legs.

Honestly? This all sounds like interactions because they removed the tail damage boxes and such.. if that makes sense? Which from what i am reading of the earlier convos? yea the bugs aren't the dinos themselves (Player attacking) more so the way the game is reading is being well.. It's trying to bite it's ear if you get what I am saying. However I am not sure how one would fix that without breaking more things.. AND keeping it the same mind you..

[hollow canyon]

You can still damage the tails, the "damage boxes" aka "hitboxes" still exist there, they just technically shouldn't apply CC

and I'm saying "technically shouldn't" because I rammed Carno's tail(or should I say - the space beneath its tail) and it both CCed the Carno and caused... a body fracture of course

the hitboxes are just all over the place in the game, locational is a problem too, Carno's got xenomorph jaws that get to stick out of its mouth and bite things two yards in front of it, Utah's pounce seems to cause it to fall flat on the ground for no reason when it hits sometimes, Pachy completely misses the ram if it releases it at point blank

...honestly there's probably more stuff that doesn't work in the game combat-wise than stuff that does work

Teno's kick hitbox might be bugged too but I'm not sure about this, I think it's just the range that should be a bit longer but they'd have to reanimate it I guess

so that's most likely not happening

Teno is a relatively ez fix - just decrease the stam cost on the tailslam and the animal should be much better, it will be even better if bodyshots stop counting as legshots which causes Carnos to take much less damage than they should be taking

Utah and Pachy are both rolling around in a dumpsterfire so full of bugs that idk if they can be fixed at all

Also - if Pachy cancels its ram by looking downward then GJ to whoever came up with that. It's not like your attacks knock down Utahs which would normally allow you to ram it if it wasn't for the fact that you cancel your ram if you look downwards

[spare badger]

I played Utah yesterday
My packmate pounced a carno, landed, got knocked off somehow, and teleported in front of its mouth and got killed

Pounce glitching and the lag made killing the carno somewhat difficult
Even though there were 4 adults and a few subs/juvies

[dusky surge]

i think it is, the hitbox is very odd

Many times I've seen my kick "hit" but not do anything

[hollow canyon]

So you see, the thing is that I technically tried to test it and I put Carno's head right behind Tenonto and the kick landed when the legs made contact with Carno's head but

The thing is that the hitbox seems to be... idk really narrow I guess?

I'm not even sure like I've never been able to recreate it not landing when testing it, it does seem not to land mid-fight

But e.g. with Carno bites working wonky I can just go and test it - bite a Utah from a yard away and then it's clear that it's not working properly, I can't do the same with Tenos kick

and how can we start fixing it if we don't know what exactly breaks about it?

Having said that - I really wouldn't mind it if we extended the hitbox a bit but that would really require a change in the animation

[dusky surge]

Honestly, based on my experiences, what I'd do to balance out the game currently is
Teno: Tail-slam stam reduction (perhaps same amount as kick). Kick hitbox mods to make it feel better.
Carno: Nothing to base stats, but give it way worse tracking for both blood and footprints, and give it a bleed mod lower than average.
Utah: Nothing, it just needs bugfixes. It's a really good animal when it works.
Deino: Nothing, it's fine.
Pachy: Make fractures more impactful by making them take additional fracture damage by consistent usage of the fractured body part, buff the damage on all headbutts to compensate for tighter turning and add an ability to permanently hold the headbutt ram until manually cancelled, at the cost of turnrate (controversial, but I believe this turn mechanic to be quite good and interesting)
Ptera, hypsi and dryo: Doesn't really matter lmao

[hollow canyon]

Can't comment on Pachy, after testing it today I honestly find this animal quite hopeless, I agree with the rest

And by "hopeless" I mean that it's just broken and needs a tonne of fixes

[dusky surge]

I think people who suggest utah buffs forget this animal is a fucking menace when it works

[hollow canyon]

The issue is it doesn't work half the time

[dusky surge]

Exactly lmao

[hollow canyon]

I tried testing it yesterday along with Pachy and goddamn - I haven't had both work even once

every single goddamn time something just broke

[spare badger]

I did play in a pack yesterday and when we had frames it was really fun

And strong

[hollow canyon]

The amount of bugs I saw just yesterday in those few fights - Pachy phasing through its target, Pachy canceling its ram(while looking down - allegedly that's intentional), Utah pouncing and disjointing, Utah pouncing, latching and then ending up on the ground

[dusky surge]

Honestly, I can bring myself to like carno with better turns and better accel if the animal is also fucking dogwater at endurance hunting. The moment you exit the open plains and escape into a dense forest, its low stam and poor tracking should mean you've basically just escaped it

[hollow canyon]

^

That's how it should be

Carno should operate well in the open but the moment you get to woods it can't follow you

[dusky surge]

It should want line of sight on you more than anything

Honestly, I'm shocked they haven't actually decided to add balancing around tracking

[hollow canyon]

Honestly another important thing that I believe to be an issue:

locational and how it prioritises damage

[dusky surge]

Since if they want "bloodhound rex" as Dondi says, there needs to be animals that track WAY worse, because EVERYTHING feels like bloodhound rex atm

[hollow canyon]

From what I've noticed if you hit multiple body parts including legs - it counts as a leghit

[spare badger]

Tracking is busted rn, my Utah pack tracked a carno through the forest super easily it wasn't even funny

[hollow canyon]

iirc this is caused by a change done in 3.75

which was supposed to stop Deino from biting through whole Stego's body to reach its head

and now if you hit multiple body parts legs take the damage(iirc there was another high priority area) this causes AoE attacks like the tailslam do very little damage to bipedal animals

I've had a tonne of trouble landing an actual body hit on Pachy while testing the damage of the tailslam

it took multiple attempts

it's just weird how legs take priority and tank the damage from AoE attacks like that

it's an issue, most people don't notice it and just think they deal very little damage because their attacks is weak

"Locational damage adjustments to prevent people from being bitten on the head through their entire body." This is the change I have in mind

Unless I'm misremembering something this change was done in a way that two body parts block the damage from going any further

I believe that if there's an AoE attack that affects multiple locational areas it should always prioritise body and deal as much damage as if you just landed a bodyshot

[hasty coyote]

@fresh zinc finally, a man of culture who also understands that specific interaction is just aids. Worse yet, it seems to be based on how you hit the carno. If you phase through its body during the ram and hit the legs(which puts you directly in its mouth) or hit it at an incline, then it happens. Otherwise it’s normally a head or rib break

[fresh zinc]

its completely rng based it was a full on head on head contest when i hit on my screen and on other peoples as well so it being a rng chance to break legs on a head on head hit is absolutely dumb, the only way it would ever make sense is if being hit by a carno charge had a chance for fractures but it dosnt so i digress.

[hasty coyote]

Yeah I don’t understand what does it, I assume it’s the jankey hitboxes. I have countered like 5 charges in a row, they lose head I lose ribs for all. Then I charge one on a slope, and it breaks both our legs and kills me.

[fresh zinc]

i usually get a head fract on the carno and a body on me but this morning i had a leg fract at dam, survived that along with being bit by a croc while running lol, then one at nw that ultimately got me killed cause it was just flat ground. my whole problem with it is if the pachy is supposed to be a hit and run dino for it to even have a chance to get a leg fract from contesting a charge(which it is supposed to do) then thats just a lose lose for my poor pachys

[hasty coyote]

I think they should make it guaranteed rib break for pachy. And a guaranteed head break for the carno. Unless you hit the carno from the side while it’s charging, then you both lose ribs.

[fresh zinc]

i 100% agree

in no way i look at it does a leg fract for either dino make logical sense when a charge is contested lol

[hasty coyote]

I think contesting a charge should be risky, but rewarding

[hasty coyote]

I have had it break my legs like 2-3 times out of like my 15 contests so far, every leg break is instant death

[fresh zinc]

its the only smart thing to do as a pachy when a carno is charging you cause its almost impossible to actually dodge one since they turn and no matter where they hit you, you get knocked down.

[fresh zinc]

it is a very sad day when you make the smart move to fract and run and it ends up being a leg break to bad they can still tail ride you even when they have a leg fract

[hasty coyote]

If it hits your tail (magically) then it only does half ur hp, but I have only had that happen once or twice

[fresh zinc]

then 1 bit and your dead anyways XD

supposedly pachys dont take extra damage from head bites which makes sense cause of the several inches of bone thats there but i got head bit once and lost 70% hp somehow from 1 carno bite

[hasty coyote]

Same, only happened once or twice again, but that damn near 1-shot me somehow

[fresh zinc]

yeah this patch is 100% for the carnivores and herbies just have a hard time growing at all thats another thing that needs to be rebalanced/ fixed its all carno bias right now they are the apex and just mega pack and control the servers rn

[hasty coyote]

Yeah, here’s the issue from the way I see it. Carno got a Quadra buff: carno buff, herbie nerfs, oasis nuked, and herbie diets are terrible. So a lot of people went carno because herbie is not as fun, so then hordes started forming. The cannibalism, which was supposed to make them kill each other, now allows them to eat the herbies they kill and their fallen allies. So that basically became a 5th buff instead of a nerf. So now most people just go carno instead of herbies.

[fresh zinc]

exactly i love my pachys but unless you herd with stegos or tenos or just have 2 or more pachys with you its unplayable, the tracking system is so broken you cant escape at all and most rock you find around forest and in center, take multiple attempts to actually hop on and be safe so you die anyways

its funny to see the carno mains downvote my post they just want the easy kills 😛

[hasty coyote]

Tracking is broken. I broke a carno’s ribs and skull, then used the rest of my stam to run into the forest. The carno still tracked me down, with its broken bones, before I could even regen all my stam. I still lived because he was blind, but the fact that he could is insane.

Now I just get cocos from NE and sit on the rock at NW

[fresh zinc]

yeah i had a carno with all 3 fractures out pace me and out stam me and just ran me down its crazy insane how stupid op carnos are rn

[hasty coyote]

Ngl when I first read it, I thought you said you wanted to remove leg break. They might have just misread what you said

[fresh zinc]

haha no only from the carno charge contest hit

just the fact the carno leg fract trot is still faster than a pachy trot is mind blowing

[hasty coyote]

Have you seen pachy trot tho lmao, it’s honestly better to just sit, ur going about as fast

[fresh zinc]

lmao cant exactly sit when a leg fract carno riding your ass and im out of stam trying to gtfo of there XD

[hasty coyote]

I have gained a lot of skill because of how difficult it is to play pachy, the buffs gonna make me destroy these carnos

[fresh zinc]

oh 100% im a pachy main before this patch and after i still play alot of pachy just took some tweeking on playstyle but you cant play pachy solo no more sadly

[hasty coyote]

The crunch is to satisfying, and watching the carno who tried to ram you limp away is just too good. Plus bloody skulls are a great way to show that you know what you are doing.

[fresh zinc]

oh 100% i love everything about pachy just the nerf was a bit harsh to nerf our charge turn speed but at the same time buff carno turn speed kinda cringe

i do wish there was a way to keep it when going from swamp to nw without takjing 2 hours

[hasty coyote]

That gave me an idea, I’m gonna suggest it in a bit.

[mighty haven]

@gloomy ravine that's just not true any decent carno will dogwalk a similary skilled teno and atleast 5 utahs without breaking a sweat, carno is fundamentally broken balance wise compared to utah,teno and pachy.

[gloomy ravine]

give me 4 good men and best carno you have, he will die ( we 5 utahs)

[covert cave]

Until pounce bug happens and you get killed while floating in the air

[old hull]

even still the carno buffs were for the most part just not needed , carno performed just fine before , maybe with the exception of the charge changes cuz those are pretty good

the extra turning and agility is just a crutch for the worse players can use now

a crutch that carno very much didnt need

[wise sparrow]

Carno only seemed bad because oasis had 7billion herbis at it at all times. U4 carno would've done amazingly here

[noble wave]

How long would you say it's going to take admins to listen to feedback and balance the game better?

[golden coral]

We don't tend to get balance patches too often, but I'm sure we'll get there. Though in many cases it's less balance and instead bugs that causes issues, which is a whole other matter.

[hollow canyon]

Yea there's barely any animal in the game that isn't bugged in some way

[noble wave]

True true, I feel they should focus on that more though before releasing new things, I would have thought they would have looked at the feedback straight away after they changed the balancing to see what everyone thought of it and what needs to be changed as I can't see it take them too long to do as with quite a few things it's clear on what needs to be nerfed and what needs a buff

[golden coral]

You can't take immediate feedback though, when you make changes, people need to get used to that first.

And no, it's not as clear as you might think, since it depends a lot on how people play :p

I've seen all kinds of statements on balance that are.. well, very odd to say the least

[noble wave]

Then have it like a test thing and true yeah people will always want to buff what they play most

[elder steppe]

yeah someone brought up exactly what you are saying a while ago and i decided to stop posting about change dino this or change dino that

[noble wave]

But when you look at what's played most on servers that's a pretty good indicator on what needs a nerf and what needs a buff, for example I don't see many people playing utah anymore

And there be a lot of carnos

[golden coral]

It's not so much that you can't post feedback, just that if they've made a change, such as utah going from damage to bleed, or teno now having kick be useful and not just slam, it does require a bit of practice to get used to the new style, most of the time at least.

[golden coral]

Not neccesarily, since it also depends on other circumstances, such as food, map, and just what people prefer in general.

[noble wave]

I guess I can see why people would pick carno over utah since its is just stronger and you're less likely to die as it but that's just bow carno is meant to be, I feel like if we had rules like only so many carnos per pack it wouldn't make them seem so op like they had with the legacy servers

[elder steppe]

Well that the thing with pack limit, it doesn't stop you with grouping with another full pack. So I don't think mega packs of any species can be easily solved. Also the official servers don't have admins or rules so it's pretty much a free for all, which is why I play them.

[golden coral]

Utahs main issue is A, pounce is buggy, and B, no good prey items in the roster

It's not so much carno being stronger or better, but rather that utah bugs out so much it's just a pain to play, and when it does work, you're up against things that are designed to be your worst nightmares in a sense :p

[noble wave]

Yeah I've tried playing utah and it's pounce is awfully buggy

I would say utah takes more skill to play too and is more risky so people prefer to go for the just spam bite option of the carno

[hollow canyon]

To be perfectly honest I'd really like it if Utah's bite was more usable atm it's just really irrelevant against almost everything

[dusky surge]

i dont think i like ANY of the proposed changes to any animal in that list of rebalances lmao

[somber sphinx]

Some were ok but most were terreble

Mostly the teno and deino requests

[dusky surge]

i dislike both the teno and deino changes lmao

[somber sphinx]

Teno is perfectely balanced now, idk why people want to change it, also for deino they can just change its diet as the roster gets bigger

[dusky surge]

teno needs a buff to tail, but not damage

i'd much prefer a lower stam cost

[somber sphinx]

Yeah, thats the only buff teno needs

[dusky surge]

have it be a good long-ranged supportive poking tool

kick should be the core hard-hitter, with damage, bleed and stun on its side

[somber sphinx]

Use the tail for stunning the opponent then kick it to death

[dusky surge]

claws should be the low-stam but easy to hit DPS dealers

and bite is for chasing small shit away

i love every attack of teno actually having a use

[somber sphinx]

Same

[dusky surge]

rather than update 4 combos
tail slam into tail slam into tail slam into tail slam into tail slam

[somber sphinx]

Before people only used tail slam bc it had everything, long range, high damage and didn’t use mutch Stam

[dusky surge]

it used the same amount of stam it currently does

but 10% stam is way more forgivable if you're also doing so much shit

[somber sphinx]

Interesting

[dusky surge]

it did SO MUCH DAMAGE that the stam was 100% worth it

[hasty coyote]

The pachy change isn’t too bad, but I it needs a bit more still

[dusky surge]

eh

i'd like other things to do with pachy

[hasty coyote]

or just something different

[dusky surge]

idk, i might be alone, but i found the turn nerf interesting

i don't think pachy is good at all, don't get me wrong

that animal needs DESPERATE help

[hasty coyote]

I'm ok with it, but with the carno buff makes it aids

i kinda like the idea of moutain goat pachy, so maybe some areas where it can get away from carnos or force them to attack head-on could be cool as well

but honestly, i just mainly need them to fix the issues and specific interactions with the ram

[hasty coyote]

the issue is that pachy lacks the ability run after a break. so now you have to play around rocks, larger herbivores, and/or a group of pachies.

[dusky surge]

Here's what I'd do with pachy:

• Ram charge can now be held indefinitely until the pachy decides to manually deactivate it or use the ram. This comes at the cost of turn radius
• Ram base damage (and thus also fracture damage) increased on all ram types (tap ram, running tap ram, charged ram, running charged ram, downwards ram)
• Fractures gain fracture damage by using the damaged body part (moving aggravates legs fracture using stam aggravates body, biting aggravates head)

Just really hammer home glass cannon imho

[hasty coyote]

those changes seem pretty good honestly, especailly if they decide to actually fix the ram

[dusky surge]

i always liked the idea of a pachy seeing you and just raising up in a defensive pose

[hasty coyote]

my main issue is it needs to be punishing enough to prevent carnos from losing their bones and just not caring, but not too punishing that a pachy can easily skill issue a carno

[hasty coyote]

thats another great thing I like to see lol, you should be scared of facing a pachy head-on.

[spare badger]

Why did they buff carno in the first place
It really didn't need it

[dusky surge]

i... disagree

[spare badger]

I feel like it was more of a product of everything else being broken

[dusky surge]

i feel that people are saying shit like "oh carno was perfect in update 4"

it was not

[spare badger]

Actually, the charge change was good

[dusky surge]

carno was a fucking trainwreck in update 4. It was a big, fast, scavenger

[hasty coyote]

the issue is that nearly every change they made helped carnos and hurt herbies, so many herbies want the direct buffs gone

[dusky surge]

Even when it DID kill small game, the amount of food it REQUIRED was so great that it couldn't feed itself

So the fucker died from starvation, if not from the animals it was meant to hunt

[spare badger]

That would be solved with the food value changes, yes?

[dusky surge]

And it was, but the animal was so pitiful at hunting literally ANYTHING that the food value changes meant little to change that

[hasty coyote]

I think the charge buff, hunger buff, and the addition of canni were good. But the turning radius buff was a bit too much imo, they can take it down a bit to the middle between last patch and this one

but maybe thats because i play pachy and hate that carnos can just tail ride half the time

[spare badger]

I forgot how many changes carno got lmao

[dusky surge]

Canni was always a thing since U4

I don't think they added that at all

[hasty coyote]

i thought that was added just this patch

ill check real quick

[dusky surge]

No

It was def a U4 thing too

[hollow canyon]

Carnos could do that in update 4 too

[hasty coyote]

idk, i cant see that they made the change so im prob wrong, didnt play carno much U4

[hollow canyon]

The running turn wasn't changed

Matter of fact it just got nerfed in update 4

[hasty coyote]

in update 4, i didnt have much trouble with tail riding because i could do a 180 as i charge the bash and hit the carno head on, but the turn nerfs on bash stop it.

Now I have to shake it off and hope that i turn fast enough to bash it, then hope my bash doesnt just phase through and do nothing

[hollow canyon]

Well, I'm just telling you that update 4 Carno turned the same as the current one while running

The phasing through happens when you release the bash too late

As in - it's not really "too late" but if you get too close to your target it just doesn't work

the ability is just broken

[hasty coyote]

i mean like i release, hit them, hear the sound effect, drain my stam, but the carno doesnt take damage

[hollow canyon]

I have a working hypothesis as to why that is but I can't really prove it

[hollow canyon]

Yes, it doesn't get fractured either, you just don't do anything, I tested it quite a bit and this is what happens when you ram the Carno from up close

Well really any animal, this isn't specific to Carno

[hasty coyote]

i think the hitbox is just further ahead of the pachy instead of being directly on its face

[hollow canyon]

Yea, I also think so

[hasty coyote]

kinda have to cut it close when the carno drift turns right in your face

[hollow canyon]

The point is that this needs to get a fix it would be good to report it although I'm pretty sure the QA know about it

[hasty coyote]

plus, there are like 3 different phase thoughs that I have seen. 1: you phase through and act as if you missed and get stuck at their feet, 2 you hit them, watch them get knocked over, but they slide away and get up as if nothing happens, and 3 you hit them but slide through and they dont take dmage

Pachy just suffers from crippling (pun intended) bugs and specific interations that just get you killed since 1 mistake could be enough for the predator to captalize.

[dusky surge]

my god, those stego changes look like they'd just make stego a pathetic and unfun excuse of an apex

less blood, can't even one-tap a pseudo-mid/mid-tier, can't even run far (despite having one of the game's lower stamina pools)

the idea of changing stego to be fair for a CARNO to fight it would make the animal a literal fucking joke

[slim dragon]

You don't understand
This would make playing stego more interesting

[dusky surge]

sounds really interesting for my 6 ton powerhouse glass cannon to be more glass and less cannon

[slim dragon]

You're the one saying you would like to play a weak and useless creature all the time (humans)

[keen plover]

Carnos having more prey options!!! I agree!

[dusky surge]

now hear me out guys

what if, they just fixed the pounce

and THEN we can decide if stego needs less blood

[slim dragon]

No
Fixing bugs useless
Balance the game around bugs

[dusky surge]

because, god forbid, utah might be EFFECTIVE against stego if it had a working pounce

i do like how that suggestion manages to nerf literally everything about stego

endurance, mobility and damage, all nerfed

[keen plover]

Pretty much free food to the current carno horde lol

[dusky surge]

also i don't understand why tf carnos are running up to stegos then whining when they get hit in the head and die?

my brother in christ, you placed your head in front of the stego

[keen plover]

It isn't even in your diet lol

[dusky surge]

you see, carno mains don't realise this, but they have SPEED, not just for COMBAT, but for DISENGAGING FROM FOES OUTSIDE THEIR ABILITY

little known pro tip

you can RUN AWAY and the stego can do jackshit

its almost like a hard counter to stego's kill potential

[keen plover]

Carnos already have a great matchup with pretty much every other terrestrial animal. Issue is, they completely see it as a PVP game, so they want to have a chance at everything

[dusky surge]

also, gotta love how stego got its damage nerfed TWICE in that suggestion

nerf stego's damage to not one-shot carno, then strip an extra 20-30% if trying to fight deino

but also reduce its running stam so it can't run away either

and decrease its blood pool so any bite will just remove any ability to regen stam

so basically, stego's main carnivore that isn't a threat to it is... ptera. And even ptera can dodge its attacks and fuck with it.

[keen plover]

I love how all of this absolutely screws with younger stegos as well. Growing for 3-4 hours to be soloed by a carno

[dusky surge]

yep

just utterly destroyed as an animal

i feel like people's hate-boners for stego shouldn't mean it needs to become worthless

[keen plover]

I used to complain a lot about stego, but with the new map. They're so easy to avoid and they can't be everywhere to protect herbis

[dusky surge]

stego is literally the hardest animal to grow in the game rn, but fuck it, let's make the process to grow HARDER and the reward shitty

[keen plover]

Also they counter deinos, which I love

[dusky surge]

no, that's a problem apparently

deino should be able to kill stego and have no viable threats at all

[keen plover]

Eating food on land and there's stegos around? Deinos can't come out of the water to bully you off your kill

[keen plover]

realistic deino bite!

[dusky surge]

stego stuck its tail in the water? completely unfair, there's absolutely no way i can swim

• on the other side of the river
• under the water so they can't hit me
• through the tail, tanking a hit and continuing because it isn't lethal

I'M JUST DOOMED

THERE'S NO WAY I CAN DEAL WITH THIS

[keen plover]

I love how so far, the devs haven't changed the matchup

I hope it's kept the same

[dusky surge]

If they do change the matchup, deino will be a fucking unstoppable land pest

People seem to really not understand that deino NEEDS stego to not be a fucking annoyance to every other playable

stego can at least, arguably, be taken down by a pack of competent utahs

deino, on the other hand, has 2000 more blood and BLEED RESIST

which HALVES THE BLEED IT TAKES

literally nothing could stop deinos if not for themselves and stegos

and even so, deinos CAN fight stegos, if they know what they're doing. And with another deino, you can do so pretty consistently

[keen plover]

Yeah, all my NW experiences with deinos is 4 adults come out of the water, take your kill. You kill something else? Here they come again.

Not sure how good their range is, but damn

[dusky surge]

it's utterly absurd how many want stego nerfed when they have complete power to literally never engage it and thus, never die to it

and then they want deino to kill it, as if that won't make deino even WORSE than stego

[keen plover]

Yeah stego is literally a non issue at this point. Don't engage it. ESPECIALLY WITH THE NEW FOOD VALUES AS A CARNO.

Utahs never starve

[dusky surge]

"nerf carno but also nerf stego so carno can fight it and deino can fight it and utah can fight it also buff utah after fixing the pounce and buff teno so it has all the buffs it already has but with the tailslam damage from U4"

[keen plover]

All the matchups apart from carno v pachy are good. You can generally avoid and fighting things.

[dusky surge]

pachy DOES need a buff, unironically

[keen plover]

Leave it as is apart from pachy, and that's it

[dusky surge]

also i'd rather carno gets a nerf to the goddamn tracking and bleed

the base stats are actually FUN on carno

[keen plover]

Yeah carno is great, kill those 2 stats. Carno should be a line of sight hunter like you guys were talking about yesterday iirc?

[dusky surge]

he's really fucking fun to get ambushes, but should def focus more on raw damage and quick kills rather than endurance bleed and tracking

yea, LoS hunter is ideal

i want carno to be the hunter that essentially lacks object permanence

once it can't see you, it's going to struggle finding you again

its ideal hunting style should be to kill you before you even SEE it

[keen plover]

Reducing the amount of blood that shows up for it?

[dusky surge]

both footprints and blood imho

[keen plover]

Yeah that would be fine for carno

Technically an ambush hunter with charge so yeah

[dusky surge]

seriously, we can keep carno as "broken" as it is, just make it very fast

[keen plover]

And if you're struggling to kill something with that speed, then give up lol

[dusky surge]

it should embody fast

[keen plover]

yeah, I'm hoping we get an update on the tracking system soon

So there's ranges to it

[harsh lark]

i love stego i love playing the dino that doesnt have to worry about survival at all in a survival game 🤡

[old hull]

for me personally its not so much that i wish carnos or deinos can kill stego , but its more of a stego being so insanely overtuned that any smart player will just ignore them completely , it just kinda makes them very dull , everytime you see a stego your just gonna sigh and go somewhere else , and since they server 0 purpose in the ecosystem in their state why even have them there at all

decreasing the stupid high healthpools of both croc and stego just for now so they can actually be even a lil threatened by anything would be (imo) prefferable then to keep them how they are where they are just slow fat damage sponges

[dusky surge]

i honestly think the purpose of curbing deinos is decent enough as a place in the ecosystem lmao

[dusky surge]

decreasing deino's blood pool would be meaningless unless you utterly destroyed it

[old hull]

true but that is just relying on deino playing being absolutely moronic , which tbf 99% of them are

if players actually used their brain , stego would never kill anything

besides other stegos i suppose lol

[harsh lark]

a herbivore being the sole regulating force for a carnivores population makes the "ecosystem" in this game even more of a joke then it already is.

[dusky surge]

also this applies to deino equally as much as stego, in fact, more so, since deino has easier and safer growth and can evade any and all threats in its natural environment

and cannibalism doesn't mean jackshit, because i know full well stegos kill their own too

[old hull]

also me personally would reduce both the health of stego and deino but try to keep their balance the same when fighting eachother , i just wish they could be killed by anything else

[dusky surge]

they could be if utah wasnt utterly fucked in terms of bugs

[old hull]

im not one of those i wanna chompa chompa the stego in the head once and kill it reeee

[harsh lark]

never said it was good for deino either, watching dinos drink from shallows all day just to get facetanked 1:1 by another bored deino sure is worth the 5 hours of afking

[old hull]

also true

[dusky surge]

utah very much CAN hypothetically fuck a stego up in packs, the issue is pounce is so utterly busted that it literally CAN'T in this state

[harsh lark]

food for thought

[old hull]

for sure yeah , ive managed to kill 1 or 2 stegos with a pack of raptors before in update 4 , but yeah atm its rolling the dice everytime you attack

[harsh lark]

if your mechanics arent perfect and your netcode makes it infeasible to expect players to play perfectly, it doesnt hurt to allows safety nets when players are risking hours of time investment in every fight

[dusky surge]

the bleed output on utah is so good that a good pack can easily fell a stego. Also the fact that stego has very bad stam regen compared to the rest of the roster means that bleed will make it harder for it to fight

[old hull]

and even if you land a pounce , roll the dice again when you detach and pray you dont get hit lol

[harsh lark]

Utah having unreliable mechanics wouldnt be as bad if it didnt also happen to die on the first lag hit it takes

[dusky surge]

im unsure what you mean by this, what "safety nets" can even be added

utah dies to stego, it's not like we should add a mechanic that means utah can tank a stego hit

[harsh lark]

utah gets hit by stego, its left with 1% hp instead of having an hour+ investment deleted instantly for things outside of its control

[dusky surge]

egh

no thanks lmao

that extra hit changes everything about the engagement

and makes the utah MASSIVELY favoured

[old hull]

that sounds good on paper but in reality it would make utah way too easy since stego cant pursue you can just kill it by attrition

[harsh lark]

??? because a 1% utah will massively destroy the balance of isle

[old hull]

that 1% utah can run off and heal while its buddies keep the pressure

[dusky surge]

because, if you're on 1HP against a stego, stego is not well acclimated to chip damage. The utah can, and probably will, continue its assault. Being able to take two hits means you can continue to fight, and would means utahs can play far more wrecklessly

[old hull]

yeah contrary to what most think utah is in a pretty good spot rn balance wise , its the mechanics being so unreliable that make it shitty

[harsh lark]

With capped HP it wouldnt heal back in any feasible time at all anyways, especially from 1%. Also the metric fuckton of bleed it would have to go take care of too

[dusky surge]

it doesn't even NEED to heal. It can just as easily continue attacking, since the tail jab is a precision-shot, unless the stego manages to hit two, the utah lives. It essentially means that utah gets far more capabilities to fight and the stego should treat a utah as if it has health ABOVE 1200

[harsh lark]

If the utah doesnt go heal the stego lands one bite on its tail and kills it lmao, it literally has 1% hp

[old hull]

for sure and this sounds alright if you think of small numbers of utahs , but scale it up to their max group size (or higher since litterally noone cares about it) then it becomes a huuuge issue

[dusky surge]

a stego managing to land a bite on a utah would require literal incompetence from the utah

that 1% HP changes literally everything about the engagement and makes it so utah favoured

[harsh lark]

Or just more lag/buggy/netcode shitfest that got it hit by the tail in the first place.

[dusky surge]

it means a pack of 8 utahs would require 16 hits to dispatch, which is absurd as a requirement for a stego

take this from someone who has worked and been educating in game design: Never balance around bugs

[harsh lark]

why are you under the impression that utah left on 1% could just go pick up a medkit and immediately get back into the fight.

[old hull]

i would leave stegos high damage alone , it makes sence its purpose is to be a slow tank , it cannot pursue anything at all so it needs the high damage to punish bad positioning from attackers

[dusky surge]

???

I'm saying that a utah on 1HP could literally just not stop fighting

It doesn't NEED to have some magic heal

it can just continue to attack the stego

[harsh lark]

literally the opposite of what you should do. Refusing to achknowledge bugs you can't fix only bogs down the game a shit ton. The current example with utahs not even having a viable matchup with stego because they risk oneshots on every attack from bugs/lag/netcode is a prime example

[old hull]

also true , utah doesnt rely on health it relies on agility , so even if its almost dead it dont matter

[dusky surge]

Dude, balancing around bugs is bad design 101

Bugs are inconsistent, you can't apply design principles to them

[harsh lark]

Designing your game as if every consequence is a fault of the player is also bad design.

[dusky surge]

i mean... isnt you dying to a stego a consequence of you selecting to fight it?

[harsh lark]

Yeah a utah can get hit by a stego and deservedly be oneshot because it let that happen, but the other half of the time when it happens for other reasons and the player loses an hour+ time investment is also a shitty discouraging thing the game shouldnt have.

[dusky surge]

i also have experienced similar things, but not once have i felt that an adequate solution would make utah able to tank a stego swing

[harsh lark]

didnt we start this convo off the basis that stego doesnt have enough things that can risk fighting it? you literally just accepted my original point

[old hull]

then we arent talking balance anymore we are talking about bugs being annoying , which agreed lol

[dusky surge]

what?

it's frustrating, sure, but it really shouldn't mean that utah should tank shit it has no right tanking

[harsh lark]

how is being left a oneshot for anything in the game "Tanking"

[old hull]

we already had a version where utah could take a hit from stego on the tail and survive and it was awful

[dusky surge]

so should utahs survive deino bites, rex bites and whatever else?

[harsh lark]

if you got hit by a stego the first thing you should do is forget engaging it anymore and run 5 miles away into a bush begging to god a juvi dryo doesnt follow and one tap you

[dusky surge]

being fair here

if utah can survive stego swings

[old hull]

well they can survive a deino bite already :p

[dusky surge]

why not let it survive every one shot

[dusky surge]

only tail bites

[harsh lark]

If pounce wasnt buggy, unreliable, as well as hitboxes and lag/netcode? Absolutely. Unfortunately we don't have this, which is why I'm advising the "safety net" for oneshots because utah is still an hour investment.

[old hull]

disagree , dont make balance changes because of bugs , fix the bugs instead

[dusky surge]

so then, should a dryo survive... anything that can one-shot it? how about a hypsi? Should I, as a hypsi, be allowed to run up to a stego and take it.

[harsh lark]

Its simple game design, making a "Hardcore" game also includes being fair, not trying to beat down the player at every turn until the games unfun

[harsh lark]

See back to our original point, a dryo has no reason to engage a stego, oneshot away. Utah is another story though considering its expected to take on stego in packs.

[dusky surge]

Alright, say I'm a troodon biting a stego, and it swings and hits my head, should I, as a troodon, survive that?

[dusky surge]

And to this point, should a dryo be allowed to survive a rex bite?

[harsh lark]

Can you stop trying to derail the convo into other dinos lol. We're talking about utah, not unreleased dinos

[dusky surge]

I'm trying to understand here

[harsh lark]

please at least say something reasonable

[dusky surge]

If animals are allowed to survive one-shots, why should it be only utahs? Other animals may need those safety nets

In which case, why not give EVERY animal one-shot immunity?

Regardless of diet, lifestyle or playstyle

Doesn't make much sense for only the utah to have access to a safety net that may benefit every playable

[harsh lark]

Already went over this, Utah is a small dino whos expected to fight big dinos despite being an hour investment. If you expect this to do this it should be able to engage big dinos and make a single mistake in the case of elements outside of the players control

You trying to extend this reasoning to other small dinos who arent supposed to interact with bigger dinos is just a strawman at this point.

[deft blaze]

That's precisely why they go in groups, nobody expects a utah to win a fight against a stego solo

[dusky surge]

So, if you don't want to risk instantly losing your animal to a larger animal you're ENCOURAGED to hunt... Why would you pick utah? I feel the fundamental issue here is not utah's inability to survive a stego attack, but the fact that you want the animal which is designed to take these risks to not be subject to them

I pick utah knowing FULL well I may lose the animal in an instant during a hunt

If that doesn't appeal to you, carno exists

So does deino

The animal is designed to acknowledge and take on these risks

Removing these risks defeats the while point

[old hull]

i wish we could play deino properly , the drinking out of the ground bugs are terrible , at the swamp alone i found atleast 5-6 safe drinking spots just wandering around as a carno

[dusky surge]

Utah doesn't need a safety net because the basis of it's whole damn animal is being unsafe during a hunt. It's a very risk-reward oriented playstyle

Removing that defeats the purpose of the animal and the core basis of it's entire playstyle

[harsh lark]

I fully achknowledge that Utah should be taking a big risk hunting big dinos, but this risk should be dependent on your own skill, not whether or not you get lucky with how much you run into bugs/lag/faulty netcode. When you design utah to be oneshot on any hit as if these elements dont exist, you're just making a playable designed to waste peoples times, regardless of how well they play.

[dusky surge]

I fully acknowledge this, but I would much rather the broken shit be fixed than utah have unfair bullshit

[old hull]

then why not demand a fix to the busted mechanics instead of adding a safety net

if pounce actually worked , we would not have this conversation

[noble wave]

Very true it us a much more risky playstyle, its problem at the moment is that it's pounce is just awfully buggy

[dusky surge]

The bugs and lag are fucking awful and unfair, but adding more bullshit to counteract the buggy bullshit leaves both sides feeling frustrated

[harsh lark]

In a perfect world thats fair, but unless the devs come out with proof that they can fix it in the near future, the game should be balanced with the assumption they can't. Online games as a rule will always have inconsistent moments compared to single player ones.

[old hull]

lets say next patch breaks carnos charge , should we ask for a bigger hitbox or just ask for it to be fixed

[dusky surge]

Imagine you're playing stego, game's running fine, and you perfectly skillshot a utah in a fight. Both of you are in control of your characters, but the utah just... Walks off. Alive

[noble wave]

True before they buff or nerf anything they need to fix the bugs of the game

[old hull]

if they cant fix it all then they failed and the mechanic should just be removed interely

[dusky surge]

That's a great point

[harsh lark]

Thats a problem why? The utah effectively lost. Hes extremely injured, has to go heal and lose hunger/thirst wasting time on that and thats assuming he doesnt get finished off by an opportunist. Theres a strange obsession with every engagement in this game HAVING to end with somebody losing hours of time investment.

[dusky surge]

But there's the thing, redo that situation with 8 utahs constantly pouncing you

You swing wildly but they just take it and keep pouncing

[harsh lark]

Imagine this, dont be shocked but just consider it, a stego just walks away after hitting a utah instead of sticking around waiting for it to heal.

[dusky surge]

And you literally can't do shit

[harsh lark]

I already told you

a utah would be left on 1% hp, they arent "Taking" shit

[dusky surge]

they're alive and fully capable of pouncing

they can continue to attack, they're absolutely taking the hit

[harsh lark]

hell if 8 utahs dog piled you they'd literally friendly fire and kill eachother after being left one taps by your tail whips

[deft blaze]

But they could just back off while the other utahs continued to attack

[dusky surge]

so... as a stego, you should just HOPE the idiots kill themselves rather than be able to kill them yourself?

needing a whole extra attack makes and breaks engagements, especially if you're DOUBLING the amount of attacks required to dispatch something like a utah

[harsh lark]

And? Then they wouldnt be participating in the fight anymore. Like I said, a 1% hp utah would effectively be absent from the fight, theres no staying in there unless you want to die.

[old hull]

it wouldnt stay at 1% for long , stuff heals very quickly in this game so he could just go right back into it in no time

[dusky surge]

also, even on 1% HP, you're completely capable of attacking

[old hull]

now put in a pack of 10 utahs and the stego has a fight it will either lose or take like 2 hours to finish

[harsh lark]

But he wouldn't, capped hp exists so he'd be oneshot on the next hit even if he fully healed up.

[old hull]

it doesnt matter he is still alive , and thus can just attack again

[dusky surge]

utah is supposed to be able to weave and dodge around stego's attacks, now imagine if it can do that and also take one hit and continue to fight

[harsh lark]

why do you guys keep insisting a 1% utah could keep continuing to fight as if its on full hp? Bleed alone would hard force a utah to disengage.

[keen plover]

You can essentially do the long game. You could grief a stego and keep hunting for a lifetime. Also AI is abudant so you can switch out and get food

What stops a pack from literally locking you in?

also a 1% utah in this case is essentially current utah lol. Since they're both 1 shot

[harsh lark]

This entire scenario pretty much ignores the possibilities of in that massive amount of time the stego finds

• herdmates
• a better spot to defend itself in
• literally just outheals the utahs attempts to kill it because the utahs have to spend more time healing than attacking

[harsh lark]

Its not? a 1% utah would have to immediately find a spot to wallow to heal its bleed, worry about being onetapped by literally any juvi/ptera/hypsi that was watching the fight, and then spend an obscene time healing just to get another safe shot at the stego

[deft blaze]

And why the hell would a utah be attacking a stego on its own