balance-feedback-discussion

[slim dragon]

Deino made the worst choice of its life

[fresh laurel]

Lol

[fresh laurel]

Good thing juvie rex life will be hell

Maybe even will challenge juvie giga life

[slim dragon]

I wonder how it will be balanced
Cause irl juvie rex was estimated to be around 50 km/h fast, but that would completely ruin the rest of the roster

[fresh laurel]

Irl smaller rexes were like their own mid tiers right?

Would be funny seeing juvie rex challenge cera XD

[slim dragon]

Yep, they're the reason medium-sized carnivorous dinosaurs didn't exist at the same time and place as rex

[fresh laurel]

Welp if younger rexes were like their own dinos then increase rex growth time?

Since you could actually have fun

Fun makes time fly sooo...

[slim dragon]

That wouldn't solve the problem of making cera, carno, allo and ablerto irrelevant

[fresh laurel]

Alberto would clap juvie rexs pretty sure

Well its good rex is far enough away for devs to make juvies fun

Ngl rex is waay too good in irl

How did it not kill shit to extinction besides trike

[slim dragon]

Depends on the age of the juvie
At some point rex gets bigger than alberto, but at that point it probably won't be faster than it

[fresh laurel]

Yea it wouldnt

[fresh laurel]

I think juvie rexs could be less agile?

We know agility in this game helps a ton now

So allo out moving a rex its size to win could be neat

[slim dragon]

We will see
I kinda hope alberto gets something going for it other than stats tho

[fresh laurel]

Alberto better be slower man

Or have shit stam

Anything to stop legacy allo vs alberto

Legit allo getting run down by alberto?

[slim dragon]

I'd say the opposite, alberto should be faster than allo
Maybe carno but with high damage, high agility and very bad stam ?

[fresh laurel]

Thing is

How would allo avoid alberto

Alberto could just track down allo

[slim dragon]

So basically it needs to pump up its stamina to 100% before any fight, then it can kill pretty much anything of its size-range and smaller, but if the enemy survives the first onslaught alberto is tired and unable to fight

[slim dragon]

Well allo is bigger

[fresh laurel]

Then shouldnt allo be heavier?

Meaning more hp?

[slim dragon]

Yes

According to Nova's charts Allo is bigger and heavier than alberto

[fresh laurel]

If you want alberto be fast it must be less agile

[spare badger]

What?

[slim dragon]

Don't tell me I confused the two

[fresh laurel]

Send chart

I gotta see this

[slim dragon]

I would if I had it

[spare badger]

Yea you did

Alberto has always been larger

[fresh laurel]

Yup..

[slim dragon]

Oh well lookis like I was wrong

[fresh laurel]

Allo should be more agile then lmao

[slim dragon]

Or maybe I mistaken Allo and Acro or something

[spare badger]

Allo will definitely have higher stamina

[fresh laurel]

Well ofc

[slim dragon]

The Allo-Alberto balance problem is really a tough one
The Isle has too many large carnivores

[fresh laurel]

Allo could be agile with good stam and great bleed

Alberto being more tanky ig

Cera well is cera

[spare badger]

Alberto would only have 200 more health

[fresh laurel]

Yup

[spare badger]

It would focus on speed and raw damage

[fresh laurel]

How fast is irl alberto

[spare badger]

Cera is gonna be a brawler like teno, have fast water speed so will be easy enough to balance

[fresh laurel]

Cera fast swimmer?

Hold up...

Cera vs teno in the water

[spare badger]

Have you seen the concept art?

[fresh laurel]

Its been awhile

[slim dragon]

Stupid fast
Like 50 km/h ? Maybe more

[spare badger]

Slam in the water

[fresh laurel]

Cera using its crest

[spare badger]

There's a reason carno is seen as a small game hunter, it's cause of the concept art

[fresh laurel]

Ik

But cera using its crest

[slim dragon]

I doubt cera's crest would be very effective at fighting

But well, Carno slams other creatures with its chin so I guess it's fine

[fresh laurel]

Cera crest for pure bleed maybe

Would be a stantionary head butt ig

[spare badger]

Found the art

In 3 images cera is doing stuff in water

[slim dragon]

Oh sounds nice
Like a punisher for cocky concurrents

[spare badger]

Are the crests strong enough for that though

[fresh laurel]

Cera acts like a honey badger or something and i love it

[slim dragon]

Teno and Cera proceed to have an epic fight in water
Then a deino comes and gulps both down

[fresh laurel]

To break through skin maybe

To do majorndmg maybe not

[fresh laurel]

When utah misses ponce...

[slim dragon]

If cera gets a horn stab, it should definitely cancel pounce like pachy's headbutt does

[fresh laurel]

Ye

Utah pounce rework when

[hollow canyon]

All those people seem to be convinced of that but they wouldn't be able to quote that dev if you asked them who it was... because it didn't. It was more so a coping mechanism of the community roughly ~~a year ago when Deino's biteforce was first shown off on stream.

[hollow canyon]

That's not true either - Allo used to be 200kg heavier than Alberto until just recently.

Alberto got an upsize not long ago(a couple of months back really?)

Allo more or less stayed the same

so Alberto is larger out of the two now

...unless you count NMMNH P-26083 as Allosaurus in which case Allo would be monstrous, dwarfing Alberto and suprassing Sucho's size.

[hollow canyon]

41km/h

Around the speed of Baryonyx all around

Faster than both Sucho and Allo

And sry for the ping, I forgot to turn that off

[fresh laurel]

Damn alberto fast

[hollow canyon]

Yea Tyrannosaurids are fast in general

T.rex juvie was likely even faster than its cousins

Someone above mentioned it running at a speed of 50km/h - it likely ran faster than that

it's possible it exceeded 60km/h

[fresh laurel]

guess we can say devs have no excuse for juvie rexes being boring huh

[hollow canyon]

Juvie carnivores can be made good rather easily

pretty much all of them

[fresh laurel]

how do you make juvie utah and carno good lmao

[hollow canyon]

it's the herbivores that are problematic

Carno juvie got nerfed so many times that it's become trash

it was absurdly good in early update 2

[fresh laurel]

juvie utah tho

[hollow canyon]

juvie Utah was good too

[fresh laurel]

after update 3.5

[hollow canyon]

in update 2 I've been killing most things with it

[fresh laurel]

update 3.5 gave it pounce which was best balance change for utah

[hollow canyon]

I'm not going to comment on that, juv Utah is much worse now with pounce than it was in update 2 without it

[fresh laurel]

how come

ik old utah was fast as hell but

[hollow canyon]

it's much slower and easier to hit now

old juv Utah could abuse most animals by being a complete menace

due to its absurd agility and speed

[fresh laurel]

loved those times ngl

[hollow canyon]

I could 1v2 relatively grown juv Carnos with a fresh spawn Utah on update 2

[fresh laurel]

but old utah in general had great agility soo...

before the weird turning update

[hollow canyon]

the inertia update?

[fresh laurel]

yea

never liked how it affected utah

[hollow canyon]

I mean - I'm just saying that both of those juveniles were good at different points

I'm not saying that was balanced

or that it should be brought back

[fresh laurel]

what would be a balanced way to make them fun lol

[hollow canyon]

I don't know

I'm just saying that they can be made fun and viable with ease

it's a different matter altogether if it's fair to make them that way

[fresh laurel]

well climbing is a good starting point

[dusky surge]

woke up to a Frosty the Icewing feedback. Good day

[sinful cove]

The return of the king

[fresh laurel]

wait what send link

[dusky surge]

look in balance feedback its there

[fresh laurel]

my man....

legit makes me cringe

he wants pachy headbutt to be a perfect block only?

[sinful cove]

Not surprising from a serial herbivore hater

[fresh laurel]

wonder if he talked about trike

[hollow canyon]

Idk why anyone would want to make Pachy's ram as useless of a mechanic as Carno's charge. Pachy might be too good right now but the solution isn't to make it hot garbage.

[fresh laurel]

but legit making pachy headbutt a perfect block thing is dumb lmao

[hollow canyon]

I'm generally just not going to comment on that suggestion, I haven't read it very carefully.

Goodness sake it really needed some structure, dividing it into paragraphs would've made it much more digestible.

[dusky surge]

its frosty

he has always made comedically horrid suggestions

very carnivore favoured every time

[sinful cove]

Remember “turn troodon in to sinornithosaurus because herbivores keep going in to the woods when i attack them”

[dusky surge]

lmao yea

[sinful cove]

“Slow stego swing by 70% or nerf its damage by 45%”

[dusky surge]

i love the percentage value feedback

every time someone makes a percent value, it's always something absurd

[sinful cove]

Where did he pull those percentages out of lmao

[dusky surge]

like giving utah 60% more stam

[sinful cove]

His intellect is clearly beyond our comprehension

[fresh laurel]

if anything just 10% but even then thats not needed

[fresh laurel]

he is multiple universes ahead of us

for he knows how this game shall fall

[spring dagger]

Wewlad

Give pachy no charge and reduce its bleed pool by 45% so that 1 utah bite will kill it

[dusky surge]

the ultimate change

[spring dagger]

[hot lintel]

@versed rune again with the fucking headswing. Why would you give Carno an attack that invalidates both Pachy and Utah? What's Pachy's main way of defending itself against a Carno? Ramming it to cause some type of fractures, aka getting in range of the swing. What's a Utah's main way of hunting Carnos? Pouncing it, aka getting in range of the swing. If Carno had a stationary stun then how in the hell are low tiers supposed to approach it? If Utah pounce or Pachy ram take priority over the headswing than why even have it in the first place since the dinosaurs it's supposed to be effective against, aka low tiers can simply override it. Carno headswing is a dumb idea that would just waste time and resources and it would make Carno op. Alt bite works just fine, why tf people keep asking for it to be a bigger better faster stronger Pachy I'll never understand. Not to mention, stationary stuns at the cost of stamina is Tenonto's whole theme and main way of dealing with Carnos, it sure sounds like an amazing idea to give Carno literally the exact same thing, especially when there's already so many stuns in the game and so many other ones planned for upcoming dinosaurs. Carno doesn't need another stun and it really doesn't feel underdeveloped, it has a bite, an alt bite and a special ability, the exact same as Utah, Pachy and Deino and you don't seem to be complaining about those dinosaurs being underdeveloped. I know you love your Primal Carnage Carno with its headswing attack but The Isle really isn't the place for it. Stop asking for useless bullshit just cause you think it'd be cool to have it.

[spring dagger]

Utah, Pachy and Deino all have functionality with their alt attacks and are actually able to use them. Carnos ALT meanwhile is fucking useless and only serves to sap you of stamina and if you get hit by the ALT from a carno then i'm afraid thats just a skill issue

Carno's ALT is a fucking stationary attack on a pursuit predator. It has to have something different since the ALT doesn't fucking fit the theme of the animal.

With Pachy ALT it is a cancel and a stun, Deino is already weighty and can turn on a dime with ALT to reposition and counter butt-riding, Utah can bait attacks and ALT into them for quite a hefty amount of bleed.

Carno is just hur dur fucking stationary alt that is so slow that it is punishing to use it and has such a high stamina cost relative to the others that (Regen wise, and the fact the stamina pool for carno is so dreadful atm) it just cannot afford to use it.

[dusky surge]

i'll be ENTIRELY honest, and having the small game be countered by the small game hunter doesn't sound that bad lmao. Also, very simple, as I said, make the headswing have good startup but bad endlag. You miss, you open yourself up for attack and get punished. You don't miss and you've done well in the fight.

Also alt-bite for carno is literally one of the most functionally useless attacks in the game and fails to have the purpose that other alt-attacks have
Utah's is mobile with better damage and can be used to do a quick moving attack and keep moving
Tenos does good damage and bleed for low stamina
Deino's is incredibly fast and can protect its flanks easily for a high stamina cost
Pachy's has both stun and damage

Carno has nothing in alt-bite, it's slow, clunky and functionally does not assist it's core purpose in hunting shit that's meant to be smaller than it as the devs stated

[spring dagger]

For once we agree on something wewlad

[dusky surge]

the fact that your primary concern is utahs and pachys being invalidated by something that's over 3x their size and literally designed to be hunting them is silly

it would stop pachys from being so utterly cocky to carnos since the fuckers could actually do something to get them off their ass, and would actually encourage pachys to leave the carnos the fuck alone after fracturing

The headswing should by no means allow the carno to
A: Play effectively in a brawl scenario
B: Punch significantly higher than themselves

A headswing should really only be doing its most significant impact to creatures half its weight or smaller. For animals sized around or above the pseudo-mids, like cerato or teno, headswing would be largely ineffective.

[hot lintel]

Yes and instead of simply buffing the Carno's alt attack add another attack that invalidates half the roster and adds yet another stun in the game when there's already too many of them and even more yet to come

[spring dagger]

Just rework stuns....? They're already too strong as it is and why is it that carno should be fucked over when everything on the roster with the exception of utah (in most circumstances) and deino fucks carno?

As you said, more stuns are coming so what the fuck does it matter giving carno an option to defend itself from smalls?

[hot lintel]

The stunning headswing is esecially a bad idea when you consider that 95% of Carno players opt for face tanking like morons instead of using the dinosaur properly, so having a damaging stunning alt attack that's stationary is only gonna encourage that style of gameplay even further

[spring dagger]

And most carno players DIE facetanking.

Meanwhile a pachy can play super aggressively into a carno and the carno dies if it gets a lucky fracture, the stunlocking is still a problem.

Cause carno doesn't have a reliable way of brawling against a brawler intensive roster

[hot lintel]

No they don't. Most of the time a Carno that face tanks a Teno or Carno is simply gonna take the damage, not die and simply run away to heal

[spring dagger]

Then the teno is playing it wrong. you die in 3 tailslams to the head as a carno from a teno.

You are stunned for fucking 2 seconds give or take.

[hot lintel]

Oh gosh, the animal that's not a brawler can't deal with brawlers

[spring dagger]

Yeah, it can't.

And it should knock over pachys and utahs with an actual USEFUL attack

[hot lintel]

As it's supposed to be?

[spring dagger]

Its a 1.8 tonne animal that cant deal with pachys that swarm it.

"Just run away" only holds up if you're not stunlocked, if you get the leg broke you're fucked.

[hot lintel]

It can simply run away

[spring dagger]

You're predictable.

[hot lintel]

And instead of nerfing stun locking make Carno a part of the problem as well

[spring dagger]

Carno wouldn't be part of a problem, you shouldn't be going up to a small game hunter that will absolutely destroy you as a pachy or utah if you misplay.

[hot lintel]

Give Carno a longer stun immunity after being stunned, make leg fractured animals more resistant to incoming stuns, so many ways of dealing with stun locking but no, make Carno a bigger Pachy, that's gonna solve the problem

[spring dagger]

There is no reliable way a fucking carno can defend itself if it needs to from swarms of a defensive orientated animal.

You want it to ALT attack? yknow that insanely long wind up and low hitbox attack that only does abit more damage?

The head being close to the ground also leaves it vulnerable to fucking head fracture

Theres literally no reason to fucking use it.

[hot lintel]

I've never gotten swarmed by Pachys as a Carno, I stay away from massive bushes and don't run into 5 Pachys at the mud pit like a dumbass

[spring dagger]

I have only because they're assassins and snuck up on me, i didn't die though but the point stands.

There has to be another attack for carno, it shouldn't be at the mercy of fucking smalls that swarm it since it is a SMALL GAME HUNTER and it can barely fulfil this role

if at all.

I've had an easier time hunting tenos than pachys as a carno

[hot lintel]

Ah yes, because there's a 1 in 100 chances that a Carno can die to Pachys we should buff Carno to shit or nerf Pachy into the ground

[spring dagger]

In what way would buffing a small game hunter destroy the game.

When you have teno, stego and pachy in their current state.

The only negative impact i can see is utah, and that poor bastard needs work anyway

[hot lintel]

You do know Pachy's whole niche is punching beyond its weight class, right? You don't need to make all low tiers fodder for bigger things

[spring dagger]

Yeah absolutely but pachy is fucking too strong for it's own good, it still hard bodies utahs, it still fucking mercs carnos provided they're unseen and use bushes

Its not fucking hard to stay in cover and wait for shit to come to you afterall.

It has too much damage, too much CC and not enough counterplay.

Carno on the other hand has a wind-up CC that is insanely hard to hit if you see it coming.

[hot lintel]

Could the solution be to get rid of some of the bushes and make them smaller and more spread out? No, give Carno a stun

That will surely solve the problem

[spring dagger]

It will.

Or even just a fucking stagger

Why should a pachy be able to hunt down a 1.8 tonne animal reliably enough to the point where there are mixpackers dedicated to the erradication of pachys on EU servers now

[hot lintel]

Literally just nerf stun locking and chill the f out with the number of bishes in plains and Pachy will feel a lot less oppressive, no need to make Carno batshit broken

[spring dagger]

Carno wouldn't be broken with an ALT headswing....

It would be broken if it could use it as an offensive tool.

But there are ways and means to outplay a stationary attack

[hot lintel]

They can't. If you think Pachy can hunt down Carnos that aren't dumb you're not playing the same game

[spring dagger]

... Have you even been playing the fucking game mate?

[hot lintel]

That's literally the problem, people will absolutely use it as an offensive tool

[spring dagger]

.... It's a stationary attack

[hot lintel]

Yes, a lot of Carno even, never had a problem with Pachys

[spring dagger]

I cant fucking run with it, i'm not exploiting my speed as a carno which is my main advantage

It's not going to be spammable unlike pachy ALT either

[hot lintel]

That stuns people, Teno needs to be stationary for its tail slam, what would stop a Carno from using it on a Teno that is literally forced to get close to it?

[spring dagger]

Would it stun a fucking teno?

You're overexaggerating here.

I'm talking about pachys and utahs

[hot lintel]

Pesky himself, the guy who made the suggestion said it should stun anything smaller

[spring dagger]

In which they should absolutely be stunned.

[hot lintel]

I don't think it should have any stationary stun period

[spring dagger]

So your fine with no counterplay being available to an animal with a broken leg?

Utah atleast has groups and has relative speed and maneuvarbility

[hot lintel]

The very reason people like playing Pachy is because they can be aggressive to it, remove that factor and half the people that play it ill stop playing it

[spring dagger]

Or people like playing pachy because it's top dog and absolutely bodys everything comparitively

[hot lintel]

I literally said they should make animals with broken legs resistant to stuns so Carnos that get leg fractured can still bite and defend themselves

[spring dagger]

Oh great, what the fuck is that still going to do; you've got no way to space them.

[hot lintel]

Bleeds out it 4 seconds of pounce, bodys everything

[spring dagger]

You have no HARD punish with your kit

If you bleed out for 4 seconds of a pounce then you're playing it wrong.

It bleeds out in a full pounce and 2 half pounces.

[hot lintel]

It literally takes 3 to 4 bites to kill a Pachy, if a Carno is allowed to bite with a broken leg that Pachy is gonna die if it keeps going in

[spring dagger]

Well yeah, but pachys aren't alone are they most of the time.

They can yknow, coordinate

[hot lintel]

If we're talking about multiple pachys then why shouldn't a Carno that messed up and got its leg broken not die to 3 Pachys?

[spring dagger]

It should, but it should be a hard fight given its a fucking 1.8 TONNE animal

right now it's too easy to fucking kill a carno with LB and 3 pachys with you

it is literally the matter of just using multiple angles and taking turns

[hot lintel]

Oh gee, and people that are good at coordination and timing shouldn't be rewarded for it, rather they should get punished in a 3v1

[spring dagger]

Yeah, the animal that has no punish aside from a useless ALT

it's not hard to just tap RMB for 1 second and run into the guy, thats not fucking skillful.

[hot lintel]

It's also not skillful to do basically anything in the game, you're not making a point

[spring dagger]

So Carno charge isnt skillful?

The hardest move to hit in the game if your enemy has a brain.

[hot lintel]

The point is, if they make stun locking less efficient and get rid of majority of the bushes, it'll be harder for Pachys to set up ambushes and 1v1 Carnos by stunning them, which are literally the only 2 problems with Pachy rn, the fact that it can use bushes way too efficiently and once it gets a stun off it can combo something to death

But no, give Carno a broken ass mechanic that impacts way too many matchups and doesn't need to exist

[spring dagger]

.... All small game match ups will be effected by it, as it should...

Carno is a small-game hunter.

[hot lintel]

Hard to hit doesn't mean skillful, you're literally relying on your opponent to not know how to move, that's not skillful

[spring dagger]

It absolutely is skillful.

Thats like saying Arena shooters dont require skill because your enemy moves around alot and is actively dodging your fire.

[hot lintel]

It already is effective enough at hunting small game, it is way too good at hunting Utahs down in the middle of a field because they can still turn decently quick and all it needs to do to a Pachy is ram it and it's game over

[spring dagger]

Utahs shouldnt be in a middle of a field in the first place what.

[hot lintel]

Just because it's a small game hunter doesn't mean it should be a fucking boogieman to evrything under its weight class

[spring dagger]

It absolutely fucking should be.

[hot lintel]

Yes, the animal who's diets are almost all in the fields shouldn't be in a field

[spring dagger]

That's not so much the animals fault as it is the diet spread

which is already being addressed

But utahs should be in cover and not sat there stood in fields RPing, i dont know what you expect

If you die to a carno like that then thats on you.

[hot lintel]

Utah should absolutely be in the plains, where tf else is it gonna stay, in the woods where it can't pounce?

[spring dagger]

Places where there is cover to get away from the speed-demon of the plains....?

and not in the middle of a open field with no dependable cover or refuge points...?

Again if you die to a carno as a utah in the open then thats on you.

[hot lintel]

You don't have to be in the middle of the plains to get chased down and killed by a Carno, you can be near the treeline, it won't give a shit, it will track you down through the forest and kill you just as fine

[spring dagger]

Then be unpredictable? go find a rock or some cover that you can jump up on? the only way you die to a carno in a forest is if you run in a straight line, theres plenty of terrain features for you to exploit

[hot lintel]

Because the "plains hunter" apparently can just track you down perfectly and kill you in the middle of the woods cause that's fair and balanced

[spring dagger]

Theres been plenty of instances where utahs have escaped, its not as hard as you make it out to be.

Logs can trip you up, going inbetween trees will get a carno stuck for a few seconds and bide you some time

Hell, jumping across rivers is a viable strategy

[hot lintel]

The broken tracking system is probably a bigger part in that but still, Carno doesn't get countered by forests nearly as much as it should be

[spring dagger]

It does though...

The mobility decrease with the turn really does fucking show.

Especially if you use narrow cover and exploit your advantage of being a smaller and nimbler animal in comparison to carno

Logs, gaps in trees, rocks, stumps, cliffs, indentations in the land, etc

If you get bit though you're just fucked unless theres cover near you

[hot lintel]

None of that is gonna matter if it got your tracks

[spring dagger]

Then be unpredictable

[hot lintel]

Because tracking is just that broken

[spring dagger]

It needs work for sure.

[hot lintel]

"be unpredictable" as the tracking system is literally pointing an arrow towards where I am

Cool shit

[spring dagger]

If you're going in one direction then you deserve to be caught up and die.

Switch shit up abit, confuse the guy; had plenty of instances where i've been chased and i've got away just fine

[hot lintel]

I never go in one direction and still get found by Carnos because tracking is just that broken, especially if you're bleeding, it's stupidly overpowered

[spring dagger]

Bleeding should allow you to be tracked better, you got hit. Thats the consequence of it.

Regardless of the animal type

[dusky surge]

Here's my prospect:
Headswing only staggers, doesn't knockdown, and the stagger only works on animals half a carno or lower. This would be everything in small-tier and below, the highest adult to be attacked being an adult dilo, the largest of the smalls. Decent damage on the headswing, 250 would be decent, have a good startup but extremely poor endlag, mid stam drain and absolutely stops the carno in its tracks. If used in a chase, this attack is literally less than useless. If in a scenario where you're trying to brawl pseudo-mids or higher, you get fucked, because you have no stun on the attack and it just leaves you open. It primarily exists as a "get off my ass and respect me" against smalls getting cocky.

[hot lintel]

It literally shows every step you've taken, which is exactly what the devs said they didn't like about previous tracking, not to mention it's stupid easy for a Carno to get one bite on you, guess I should just be doomed to die cause the guy tapped left click once and got me with a desync hit

[spring dagger]

Its stupid easy to get a bite on a utah that isnt right next to it and is using cover and trees..?

With desync i will agree but god

[spring dagger]

This

[hot lintel]

Yes, the animal that's built around getting an ambush on something should casually 2 shot a Utah or a Pachy while stationary

[dusky surge]

Bait the headswing, pounce/headbutt, immediate punish

[spring dagger]

^

[hot lintel]

I will never understand why people refuse to play carno as an ambush hunter and keep asking for stupid shit that would make it more of a face tanker Rex wannabee than it already is

[dusky surge]

It's almost like it perfectly plays directly into carno's entire gimmick of not running in a straight line. If you run in a straight line towards a carno, you get fucked. If you run in a straight line away from a carno, you get fucked. If you play to utilise your agility and dodge, then you DON'T get fucked

[spring dagger]

^

[dusky surge]

I LOVE ambush carno but I want a carno that HAS an alt-bite that isn't fucking trash or makes no sense

[spring dagger]

Ambush carno is the way to play it but for fucks sake there has to be alot more to it's kit.

[hot lintel]

I love ambush Carno and still don't give a shit about a headswing that doesn't need to exist

[spring dagger]

I can't be expected to just bite spam into 5 pachys when they can hit me without consequence.

If i have a broken leg that is

And if they constantly chase me which they will

[hot lintel]

Why tf would you even approach 5 Pachys?

[spring dagger]

Charge.

1 charge + 2 bites and thats a dead pachy

[hot lintel]

Even with charge you should never be able to just run into 5 Pachys a solo

As any solo mid tier really

[spring dagger]

I'm not solo.

[dusky surge]

I reckon an allo would fucking melt 5 pachys if it ran into them lmao

i'll be purely honest here, pachys are fucked

[hot lintel]

3 Carnos is the limit, that's way more than enough to destroy 5 Pachys

[dusky surge]

carno is tiny for a mid

[spring dagger]

2 is enough.

Even still, if you get the leg broke you're fucked and you have no reliable way of defending yourself

[dusky surge]

carno is barely not a pseudo-mid

[spring dagger]

having an ALT that makes it so they have to think twice and offer out-play potential and actually relying upon other herbivores to dish the damage out and finish you is fine to me

Its another incentive to have a herd

but RN all it is, its just swarms of pachys and the rare tenonto and stego bullwarks

[hot lintel]

Why should you even be able to defend yourself with a broken leg against 5 Pachys?

[spring dagger]

Why the fuck shouldn't you as a 1.8 tonne animal?

[dusky surge]

i don't want brawler carno, but the carno's horrid turn radius (along with a slow-paced alt-attack with good openings and largely ineffectual impact against larger creatures) would make it anything but. All the headswing would be is a carno's last defence if its too low on stam to effectively escape or needs the small threat killed quick

[hot lintel]

Always mentioning the size as if that's all that fucking matters, classic Legacy style balancing

[dusky surge]

And the best part about the headswing?

You can counter it by literally walking away

[hot lintel]

You already mentioned you're not solo, if you have group mates they can easily defend you if you have a broken leg

[dusky surge]

Since it's stationary, you literally win by not being near the carno

[hot lintel]

Why should a single Carno be able to run into multiple Pachys, get its ankles broken, and still come out on top?

[dusky surge]

It wouldn't

The pachys can just fucking leave

you realise this right

[spring dagger]

Because its a fucking 1.8 tonne animal. Should it just disintegrate like paper? It should still die but the pachys shouldn't be able to murder it like they do

[hot lintel]

Yes, 5 Pachys should run away from a single Carno that's crippled

[spring dagger]

It dies so fucking quick with no counterplay

[hot lintel]

And leave it to heal its fracture and come back

[dusky surge]

You can be well away by the time that leg heals

The entire point of pachy was literally hit and run

[hot lintel]

That's literally what I suggested with Carno getting a stun resistance if its legs are broken

[dusky surge]

It fractures and it leaves

[dusky surge]

So instead of a mechanically smart carno being rewarded, carno is rewarded for... Being fractured? How is that an improvement

[spring dagger]

But what the fuck does that matter if it can't fucking hit them, it's turn is shocking and if you have guys coming at you from multiple angles you have no reliable way of counterplaying them.

[hot lintel]

It isn't. That's what Hypno mentioned in a devblog and he was talking about a single Pachy vs a single Carnp. Why the fuck should 5 Pachys run away from a single Carno?

[spring dagger]

3 pachys should still fucking struggle against a carno

5 should struggle less, but there should still be struggle.

[dusky surge]

also, i still think you haven't realised that headswing is meant to PUNISH WHIFFS. If you MISS the headswing, you get fucking hit

Its got low range and bad endlag

It leaves the carno far more open than just bitespam

[hot lintel]

Not getting stun locked to death is not a reward, it's simply to give the Pachys more of an incentive to not face tank stun lock it after fracturing it

[dusky surge]

It just makes no sense that "oh heavens, my bone has broken, I guess I'm just not shaken by these small beasts ramming into my body anymore"

[hot lintel]

Yes, 5 to 6 collective hours of growth should strugge against a 2 hour growth dino with a broken leg

[dusky surge]

okay but hear me out

[hot lintel]

It makes no sense but it's what's necessary for balance

[dusky surge]

the alt-bite is useless offensively

it's ONLY good defensively

[spring dagger]

Its not even good defensively.

The current one anyway

[hot lintel]

If they don't add a stun resistance (not immunity, resistance) there's nothing stopping Pachy swarms from stun lockings to death, which is the exact thing y'all are complaining about

[dusky surge]

Or, hear me out, an attack that stuns it first

Why not just give it headswing if the attack is so useless in your eyes. See how it turns out

[hot lintel]

The way y'all are describing it makes it sound actually useless and an actual waste of money and animators' time

[spring dagger]

Would you rather the useless ALT that carno has now?

[dusky surge]

More useless than current alt lmao

[hot lintel]

So if the windup is that high why would you even use it, any player with 2 braincells is gonna move out the way and snap your ankles in half

[dusky surge]

Windup isn't high, windup is fast

Endlag is high

[hot lintel]

A buffed current alt yes, because at least it's not yet another annoying ass stun that invalidates all low tiers

[dusky surge]

If you whiff, you get punished by losing distance, opening yourself up and wasting stam

[hot lintel]

fucking tomato tomato

[dusky surge]

it isn't at all

windup and endlag are very different

[hot lintel]

So if you risk that much why even add it when even with that headswing the most reliable play is still to get away from the Pachy and set up an ambush?

[spring dagger]

The stun wouldn't fucking invalidate low-tiers if they play it right

[dusky surge]

It'd be a good tool against smalls but wouldn't invalidate

[spring dagger]

And they tried to buff the current ALT and literally made the problem worse, the fucking ALT was so fast, did a fucktonne of damage and enabled face-tanking that you apparently dont want.

That's all you fucking will accomplish if you buff the ALT, ALT's imo should be more utility based or spacing moves

[hot lintel]

Y'all are betting everything on the chance that its hitbox isn't gonna be broken, desync won't turn it into the most op shit ever and that people won't just misuse it

[dusky surge]

also carno alt-bite is so fucking stupid looking lmao

[spring dagger]

People already abuse tap-charge with pachy. Why even fucking full wind it up? Theres a bug with utah pounce that people have been exploiting to get cheap kills. Carno doesn't have any of that aside from a shitty charge which anyone with half a brain can just dodge it

Atleast an ALT head swing will give carno some much needed defensive move, it's all offense and it cant do shit if shit is swarming it.

When it absolutely should be able to do something and make the matchup more complicated rather than o look tap RMB or o look pounce spam, you can't do shit lol

It'll make people think twice about approaching a 1.8 tonne animal.

[hot lintel]

It's almost as if it's not built for defending itself against swarm of dinos and rather ambushing

[spring dagger]

Animals that are small.

[dusky surge]

RMB is useless in a scenario when you're fighting something else head to head. Might as well have a substitute in that scenario so carno fights aren't just W+M1

[spring dagger]

^

Playing carno is not fun at all. Bottom line it needs a complete kit rework

The charge is so hit or miss i only really use it if i am guaranteed to hit the guy which is usually most of the time admittedly since they're chatting or dont pay attention

It's not even satisfying to fucking land the charge since you cant guarantee the kill

[hot lintel]

Adding an extra mechanic isn't a complete kit rework, plus, that's be a waste of fucking time and money on a dinosaur that already works just fine and only has a few problems that don't even stem from him but from stuns being annoying to deal with

[hot lintel]

If you land a charge on a Utah or a Pachy and don't kill it the problem is at you

[spring dagger]

Or the fact they're just playing with their group.

I absolutely should kill something thats on the ground if i hit it and they dont pay attention.

That's on them.

[hot lintel]

You literally said that herbivores should be encouraged to play with groups

[spring dagger]

Did i say i hit a herbivore?

[hot lintel]

Why should you be able to charge at 5 people at once and still come out on top?

[spring dagger]

Because i fucking hit the hardest move in the game to land and it's entirely predicated on player behaviour

If you play like an idiot you get hit, if you dont then you're good unless it's a desync

[hot lintel]

And even then, if you charge a Pachy or a Utah even in a large group the rest are probably not gonna react in time to save the guy cause all it takes after that is 2 or 3 bites which you can spam

[spring dagger]

Yeah, but all it takes for pachy is 1 hit and you are in a stun train with a seemingly random break of parts.

I got hit in the tail and got my leg broke once for fucks sake.

All it takes is 1 hit and you're done pretty much most of the time

[hot lintel]

Which is why the best move is to not charge at 5 Pachys as a solo Carno and stick around after you landed the charge and got seen

[spring dagger]

Which i dont.

I kill the guy and move on

[hot lintel]

Then wtf are you crying about?

[spring dagger]

The fact that i have no fucking move to get the guys off me if i do get broke and i have to rely upon a slow ass ALT that is completely fucking useless

Like we have been discussing this whole time.

Or my regular bite god fucking forbid with my GOD AWFUL turn

[hot lintel]

if you get hit by a Pachy that you can see that's entirely on you

[spring dagger]

I dont fucking see them, as i've stated before.

And the fact they can TAP and STILL DO FULL FUCKING FRACTURE DAMAGE.

[hot lintel]

Which is why you should stay the fuck away from large bushes at hotspots

[spring dagger]

Like what the fuck is that

So how the fuck do i ambush then, walk me through it.

[hot lintel]

Together with my suggestion that bushes should be cut down in numbers and size

[spring dagger]

Great. that really helps me ambush.

You can't just get rid of the bushes it'll be too predictable to know where people are gonna come from.

Its a double edged sword you haven't considered

[hot lintel]

I never said get rid of them

[spring dagger]

Cut down in numbers and size.

That is getting rid of bushes as we know them

[hot lintel]

That doesn't mean fucking erasing all of them from the map

[spring dagger]

I never said that.

[hot lintel]

You can;t deny that there's too many bushes in plains and too big, even a full fucking Stteg can hide in them

[spring dagger]

Thats what makes the game interesting.

Whilst also being a problem

[hot lintel]

You can cut some of them and make them all smaller and still have Carnos able to set up ambushes

[spring dagger]

From predictable locations....

[hot lintel]

Right now there are bushes that can hite multiple Carnos in one bush

[spring dagger]

Oh gee theres 4 big bushes here and a bunch of small ones

where the fuck is he gonna be i wonder.

[hot lintel]

Your average Isle player isn't gonna think like that

[spring dagger]

You still can't use that as a argument point, the game becomes stale and fucking repetitive to set up ambushes from the same area.

Its just the same shit with different outcomes, those being you hit the guy and kill him or you dont and you miss.

Or you hit him and his group comes immediately because they're in VC

[hot lintel]

You can completely fuck up an ambush and still get the kill on a Pachy or a Utah, without a bs stationary stun

[spring dagger]

If they are fucking stupid yeah

[hot lintel]

Nope, there's nothing a singular Pachy can really do in the middle of a field if a Carno is behind it

[spring dagger]

In the middle of a field without support and no cover.

Which said cover is significantly diminished through your suggestion

[hot lintel]

Where it's forced to go to get its plants, yes

[spring dagger]

It can grab plants and bring it back, eliminating risk; you can have groups go out

Even still. Reducing cover hurts herbivores and the gameplay in general.

[hot lintel]

not with agave they can't

[spring dagger]

OFC they can

They just have to grab more

[hot lintel]

Not to mention getting stuck in eating animations no matter if you hold e to eat or just picking things up

[spring dagger]

I agree with that but even still, just go out in a group

whats the guy gonna do if you've got a buddy or two

[hot lintel]

Nothing, as it should be if it loses the element of surprise and there's multiple targets

[spring dagger]

The element of suprise which is reduced by the reduction of bushes and usable cover.

Thereby making it impossible to both approach them as a carnivore, and escape a carnivore thats on your tail.

Your solution is a detriment to the game at large, cover needs to be that dense imo

[hot lintel]

You're making it seem like way too big of a problem, with how many stupidly large bushes there are rn you can easily remove 25% of them from center plains and not notice a huge difference in your hunting capability

[spring dagger]

Well thats dependant on how hard they wanna go with weed trimming right?

[quaint merlin]

would be cool if the big field bushes were removed entirely and instead fields and forests are more equally spread out and smaller

[spring dagger]

If they get rid of all the big bushes, the game is predictable

If they dont, the game is a jumpscare simulator

[hot lintel]

Considering plains have always had either incredibly large bushes or tall grass, I doubt they'll go hard on the trimming

[quaint merlin]

so ambushing occurs from the forest into the field, and not from the large fucking bushes which just make forests something to be avoided

[hot lintel]

They've always liked putting a bunch of cover in the plains and they won't stop doing that

[spring dagger]

We will see, there was barely any cover in update 2's map aside from the trees so.

[hot lintel]

I'd like that a lot more since let's be fucking real, the whole of center being one big field is fucking stupid

[quaint merlin]

yeah its very fun thats the place where 90% of the playerbase is

like forests rn are also designed bad

[crimson dune]

We need more bushes in oasis, the ones that are already there are only good for pachys prepared to ram anything they see

[hot lintel]

Also just make more herbivores not plains animals cause it's fucking stupid

[quaint merlin]

super dense and those fucking logs hamper movement even more

[quaint merlin]

so add more bushes so pachys can make the striking distance even smaller?

[hot lintel]

Like it's so obvious that the whole reason they made Pachy a plains animal is to interact with Carno, cause if you play Pachy around the forests you'll see it literally feels better as a forest and jungle animal than a plains animal

It's like the animal naturally fits in one biome yet they forced it into the complete opposite

Not to mention Teno being a swamp animal yet being able to live just fine in the fields near oasis

[crimson dune]

I mean further than the actual ones, so herbivores can't see carnos from 100 miles away

[quaint merlin]

because lolz lets just throw all the food next to the water where deinos cant ambush + mudpool surely this wont make a hotspot

[hot lintel]

Devs need to chill tf out with bushes not add even more of them wtf

[quaint merlin]

delete bushes entirely and just use forests for cover

[crimson dune]

Oasis is in the middle of a fucking plain, how am I supposed to ambush with no cover

[quaint merlin]

By making forests and plains more connected instead of big open plains with nothing around

Like in legacy the map was designed so there were no big plains areas

And the forests were less dense but there were still ambush opportunities

[crimson dune]

Evrima fforests are dense cause they are a jungle

I think the more you get to center of the map, the more it should look like legacy's map

[quaint merlin]

Doesnt matter if its a jungle the forests can be made less dense and cluttered and still look like a jungle

But yeah pine forest needs to come back

[crimson dune]

Jungle is supposed to be there for night dinos like troodon but we Don't have any yet

[quaint merlin]

Large part of the map to take up for 2-3 dinos that are already stronger with the night but ok

[hollow canyon]

You know that I probably disagree with you about... a tonne of things regarding Pachy and Carno and what not, however I'm totally with you on this one - I think this would absolutely make Carno invalidate smalls.

We really, really don't need to give Carno a stationary attack that would CC other animals.

[hot lintel]

People have been trying to make an argument that it should have a really long endlag or recovery or whatnot, to make it really punishing for missing, but at that point it just sounds like it wouldn't be worth using

[hollow canyon]

Yea that sounds like it would either be overpowered or worthless, I think that it's a better idea to just give alt bite a buff.

I'd personally just buff it to its old-state where it was really fast and then ramp-up the stamina cost.

[hot lintel]

I just think it'd be really dumb to have Pachy, the dinosaur that's supposed to go in, break something and run away, have to also be considerate of the mf stnning it and then spam biting it to death

[hollow canyon]

Yea I think it would specifically be really bad for Pachy

Utah can kind of disengage a bit after pouncing but Pachy would likely be dead the moment it uses its ram on a Carno.

[hot lintel]

Especially considering that would probably fit a lot better on Cerato, that's the dinosaur that should have a counter to ram, not Carno

[dusky surge]

you can buff the alt-bite all you want, it still doesn't fit carno's kit in any capacity

[hollow canyon]

I'm not a fan of giving animals hard CC like that. I'm already really critical of Pachy having that, I think giving that to Carno would be 10 times more cancerous.

Yea, but alt bite should just be a defensive tool.

[hot lintel]

And an attack that does literally the exact same thing but with a stun would?

[hollow canyon]

I do agree that offensively it doesn't make much sense for Carno

[dusky surge]

headswing isn't proposed to be an offensive tool in any sense

[hollow canyon]

but at the same time giving Carno a CC on an attack other than charge sounds like an awful and cancerous idea that would make the animal broken.

[hot lintel]

Except it absolutely would be used that way

[dusky surge]

it keeps carno in its lane of fighting smalls while actually giving alt-bite utility rather than just being a worse bite

[dusky surge]

literally how do you manage to do that

[hollow canyon]

its the utility that's the problem here

[dusky surge]

if the altbite locks you to a stationary position

[hollow canyon]

Carno stunning stuff like that while stationary is a recipe for a disaster

I think the animal is severely undertuned right now but that would make it an absolute cancer of the game

[hot lintel]

You run at something that's too close for you to get the charge momentum but you still get to stun them with the alt attack

At that point what's the purpose of the charge if the alt attack does the same thing much closer?

[dusky surge]

i would rather either see headswing or do a stego and just don't give carno an alt-bite. The current alt-bite is ridiculous, serves absolutely no functional addition or purpose to carno's kit and is just a worse version of already existing attacks. Unless there's another option for an alt-bite alternate

[dusky surge]

charge does knockdown, alt-bite does stagger

[placid reef]

so its basically the later of what you described, it here but it does nothing in return acting like stego with no alt

so we are already in that stage except the alt exists when it changes nothing if it didnt

[hot lintel]

the alt bite that you're suggesting doesn't exist so we don't even know how it would work, not to mention most people, Pesky included, are asking for the headswing to "swat things away" aka do a knock down or knockback

[dusky surge]

i disagree with knockdown personally

not enough momentum to knockdown and would make it frustrating instant death move

only a stagger

[placid reef]

and i disaggree with stuns and the integration of the other 2 stuns in the game

the 3 stuns rn are either an awfull idea or implemented very poorly

[hot lintel]

That would still be as close to an instant death as possible, against something that was literally forced to get in range of the headswing to break the Carno's leg so it can get away

[dusky surge]

couldn't you bait the headswing then go for the hit, then just run the fuck away while the poor idiot is stunned

[hot lintel]

And no, "just bait it out" isn't a valid argument as that just sounds like annoying extra stepts

[dusky surge]

there's three stuns?

what's the third besides stagger and knockdown

[placid reef]

i count stagger, knocks and stuns under the stun category

[dusky surge]

stagger is stun

[hot lintel]

Yes, bait the headswing and rely on the carno taking the bait instead of keeping it for when you actually go in, then die cause it can spam bite you to death after the stun

[dusky surge]

there's no third stun

[dusky surge]

if it could do that, why doesn't it do that already in current day fights?

[placid reef]

and what do you call canceling attacks, stoping them from attacking etc, and what are staggers then?

[dusky surge]

if it can just spam-bite to death when you go in

[dusky surge]

staggers are basic stuns, knockdowns are advanced stuns

there's really no more complexity than that

[hot lintel]

Cause it can;t fucking stun people while stationar, which is exactly how Varno should work

Ik I misspelled that but I'm gonna keep it that way cause Varno sounds funny

[hollow canyon]

I call cancelling attacks "a bug"

[placid reef]

fair

[hollow canyon]

Pachy's just bugged, in more ways than one, when it gets fixed it should be fine-ish

Carno just needs a faster alt bite and either some more agility or a faster acceleration so that it doesn't take forever before it can start charging

then it should be fine

[dusky surge]

honestly, at this point, just remove alt-bite on carno lmao. It's so fucking stupid and people don't want an alternative. Alt-bite doesn't fit carno in its current state, buffing it just makes it even more stupid and I really can't think of anything else that would work in this scenario

[hollow canyon]

Pachy needs no changes aside from removing that attack cancel and fixing the body fractures with maybe a slight tone-down of the stun that it applies but I would probably wait with that last one

[hollow canyon]

how does buffing it make it more stupid?

[hot lintel]

The reason people keep asking for the broken ass Carno headswing is cause Pachys can apparently stun lock carnos to death (never happened to me while playing Carno cause I'm not a dumbass who runs into 4 Pachys with no plan) but instead of, Idk, maybe changing the way stun works so Carnos can't get stun locked for 4+ seconds anymore they're just asking for even more broken ass annoying op stuns on even more dinosaurs that don't need them

[dusky surge]

have you seen it

[hollow canyon]

You just make it faster to make it more usable

[dusky surge]

it looks utterly absurd and doesn't fit carno in any capacity

[hollow canyon]

Yea I've seen it buffed, it was good then, just had too little stamina cost

[dusky surge]

just "here's your standard running bite but better in case you need to brawl something big close range"

like why

its fucking useless against smalls

its only good on brawling tenontos, which it does horribly rn (for good reason since carno doing that shit is so fucking dumb)

[hollow canyon]

idk in what world alt bite is useful for brawling tenontos

or was for that matter

[dusky surge]

well then

what's its purpose

[hollow canyon]

fighting off smalls like Utahs

[dusky surge]

it can't hit smalls and it fails in brawls

[hollow canyon]

it should be hitting smalls

[dusky surge]

so like

[hollow canyon]

it doesn't because it's just too slow, just make it faster

[dusky surge]

a headswing but worse and more dumb looking

if its faster it looks even dumber

[hollow canyon]

yes, it is a worse headswing, because it doesn't CC stuff

which it shouldn't do

[dusky surge]

you know the best way to deal with smalls is to make them stop moving right

because a small's primary tool is generally its speed

[hollow canyon]

yes and that's too good

[dusky surge]

hence the whole small-game hunter thing

[hollow canyon]

yes, that's exactly why I don't want that - that's too good

you threeshot those smalls, you shouldn't be able to have a stationary attack that stops them in tracks, that sounds just way too good

[dusky surge]

all the headswing changes is niche cases where the utah/pachy are on the offence. The playable most hurt by this is pachy since it generally wants to get close before it makes distance with fractures

try getting hit by a carno alt-bite in a chase as a utah, then tell me how viable headswing will be in hunts

[hollow canyon]

yea, it's honestly completely screwed over unless it can hard CC Carno to stop it from using the headswing... which it also shouldn't be able to do

adding more cancerous hard CC to the game isn't the way to balance out the cancerous CC that's already in the game

[dusky surge]

except this is a rare case where CC would actually help the animal do the job its meant to do without making it entirely oppressive since the alt-bites have usually always been only been viable defensively, unless you're like utah or teno who either have fast animations or can move using altbite

[hot lintel]

It can already do small game hunting just fine, you're asking for it to be damn near untouchable to small tiers unless in groups

[placid reef]

pachy has cc when it shouldnt and we all see how that turned out, either give it to everybody or only allow select few to get it as part of their identity, carno already has an indenity

[hot lintel]

And why shouldn't Pachy cc? Pachy without cc means it would get face tanked to death when it tries to fracture a carno, aka the thing it;s supposed to do to get away

[dusky surge]

my main point is that carno's alt-bite literally fits nowhere in its kit. It's horrid in all conceivable scenarios, from visual to actual in-game application

speeding it up just doesn't fit carno and leads to the alt-bite spammers actually being rewarded for their ape gameplay

since all alt-bites (besides deino) have more damage than base bites, so the faster the alt-bite, the better it can out DPS standard bite

[placid reef]

aight cc is a broad term, also mb tho, meant for the alt, headbut by all means should cc, alt should only knock pounce i meant, the extras are not needed

[dusky surge]

couldnt utahs just abuse pachy without that alt-bite stun

just tank the damage and pounce

[hot lintel]

exactly

[placid reef]

i said it should knock pounce...

[dusky surge]

the ram is far too slow and clunky to hit the utahs so the pachy just dies

[hot lintel]

I've never seen why people keep asking for alt attack stun to go away, it's quite necessary

Pachy alt attack without stun would be just raw damage (that doesn't even do that much damage) with no bleed, no fracture, no stun and that uses up stamina and locks the guy in place, what would be its purpose at that point?

[hollow canyon]

because the idea that Pachy should get to just alt lmb a Utah that's pouncing to knock it down on the ground is broken?

[hollow canyon]

Damage, it would be the damage

like it is on... almost every other animal

[hot lintel]

Pachy's alt attack should stun, it should just not last as long as it doesn now, the stun I mean

[hot lintel]

A Utah is gladly gonna trade that damage to stack bleed on it

Making the alt attack useless

[hollow canyon]

If you're being pounced by Utah you should either have to use the ram to counter the pounce or just get out of its way and dodge it

[hot lintel]

Pachy alt attack should stun Utah for like a second giving the Pachy time to go for another alt attack or a tapped ram, so it can punish the Utah for trying to dance around it when what it should be doing is bait it out or ambush it with pounce

[dusky surge]

Removing stun from alt-bite would drop pachy straight to trash tier

[hot lintel]

A Utah just dancing around the Pachy with no care in the world is just stupid, and no, the ram is not a valid option to counter pounce most of the time cause it's slower and half the time doesn't take priority over the pounce

I've had multiple instances where I rammed a Utah that tried to pounce me, the ramming sound came up but the Utah was tp-ed on my side and I was as good as dead

Just nerf the alt attack stun, don't remove it

[hollow canyon]

It's not so much that it doesn't take priority over the pounce but it likely just doesn't register

I've noticed that the ram just doesn't register when you use it when your opponent is too close

which is... really questionable I'd say

[hot lintel]

That's what 90% of Pachys die to

[hollow canyon]

we could probably try this approach first and see how it works out

[dusky surge]

Honestly, change alt to a stagger instead of a knockdown on Utah sized animals and we’ll see a stark difference in how one-sided the matchups feel

I still have no problems wiping out adult pachys as Utah atm but everyone says they’re basically gods so I guess they are

[hollow canyon]

I think it's entirely down to how good those Pachys are

[hot lintel]

Yeah, I'd say anything under 70% of Pachy's weight or so gets knocked down so it's still deadly on sub Utahs and small Carnos

Yeah Pachy has a decently easy time against Utah but that's literally how it's supposed to be, the devs have said that's gonna be the case months before Pachy even came out

That ties into how Evrima is supposed to work, just because something is within your weight class doesn't mean it's automatically a fair fight

[placid reef]

in fairness, before we start adding or removing stuns, stuns in general need to be changed, reducing duration, effect etc, maybe even dino specific

[hot lintel]

Tbh I never had a problem with the way stuns work, I think too many dinosaurs rely on them and too many upcoming dinosaurs seem to also be going to rely on them, but currently stuns are only a problem if you're being stupid and get hit

Like imagine if Teno's tail slam didn't stun, you'd have to etiher buff the shit out of its damage values, which would be just as cancerous as the stun, or watch it get face tanked to death by Carnos cause it can no longer punish them for going in like morons

[fresh laurel]

It would just be like update 1 teno

Or u2

[hot lintel]

Which was stupid af

[fresh laurel]

Not really

Back then there werent many dinos

[hot lintel]

"A Utah just ran into your ass and you landed a tail slam right on his head? Too bad, he just gets to run away"

[hollow canyon]

Funny enough it wouldn't - Tenonto currently facetanks a Carno even using its claws-swipe

[fresh laurel]

To be fair teno claw swipe countered utah

Plus shallows...

And pounce didnt work on teno back then properly

[versed rune]

I’m not gonna stop advocating for something that fits perfectly in carno’s moveset, sorry.

And pachy/utah can approach it by attacking when the carno misses its attack or they catch it off guard. It’s pretty damn simple.

I’m quite sick of this “carno is OP lole” mentality, where in reality all you gotta do is pay attention so you don’t get ambushed and have good enough jukes to outlast it for its 80 seconds of stamina

[placid reef]

"just attack once it misses", that statment is the same for pachy yet here we are

any cc alt attack brings huge issues for balancing

[hot lintel]

The dinosaur that already has to worry about not getting 3 shot would now also have to worry about predicting a mf's stationary stun just so it can go in and probably not even get the fracture it so desperately needs to get away, or else get stunned and killed by the "ambush sprinter" animal that can apparently just do that

[hot lintel]

Plus, I didn't even say Carno is op in its current state. Shitty fps makes it way harder to juke them than it should be but that's not the Carno's fault

It would however be op if it could just press a button and completely invalidate the 2 dinosaurs that need to get in range of that stun to even do anything to it

And if the punishment for missing the headswing would be that severe why even fucking have it in the first place? Who in their right mind is gonna use an ability like that and open themselves up against the other 2 Pachys or Utahs that are nearby? The only situation where it would even be effective is in a 1v1 against a Pachy or Utah, where Carno already has the upper hand in every single way anyway, so why tf add it?

[versed rune]

because it’s cool and fits in its kit

[spring dagger]

Pachys alt is too fast imo, there's no wind down for it

If the speed was adjusted it would be fine

[hot lintel]

Not to mention, imagine you just pounced a carno and it just happens to time the headswing right and stuns you on dismount and kills you. As if Utah doesn't already have to worry about getting sniped by Tenos, Pachys and Stegos on dismount, Carno would join that club too

[hot lintel]

Cool - yes, fits in its kid - no

The only 2 things it would be good at is shitting on 2 dinosaurs it already shits on or making the Carno even more vulnerable when attacking something

[versed rune]

Wait so is a headswing OP or is it going to make carno vulnerable when using it

You’ve been saying that it’s going to trash it’s opponents but now all the sudden it’s going to detriment carno...???

[hot lintel]

It's gonna be op against a single opponent but completely useless against a group. Carno already does fine in 1v1's against Utahs and Pachys and it can just run away from bigger groups, why have a cancerous stationary stun when it already does fine in those matchups?

Oh right, "cause it'd be cool"

[versed rune]

Yeah you’re pretty much right on the money.

If it fits the animal then why not add it? Focus on fun first, then balance it after you have the idea.

[hot lintel]

I guess Deino should also be able to deathroll a Stego's head off "cause it'd be cool"

[hot lintel]

That's like the dumbest balancing strategy I've ever heard

[versed rune]

No because what you’re using there is a hypothetical instant kill method which could apply to anything else in the game. By that logic carno should be able to bite and grab a dinosaur’s head and snap it’s neck instantly, or utah should be able to stab shit in the heart with a claw kick and one shot it

[hot lintel]

Carno is the dinosaur I've played the most in Evrima's runtime and never have I ever felt like a headswing stun would help my gameplay

[versed rune]

I do thing deino should have a grapple against stego that it can use to get into a tug of war match with it

[hot lintel]

And how would a headswing that stuns a Pachy not be an instant death since it can just spam bite it afterwards?

[versed rune]

And dare I say, because it’s cool and fits the animal

[versed rune]

Should that not be near instant death from an animal that’s nearly 4 times bigger than it?

[hot lintel]

It already has the charge which is pretty much an insteant death, why tf you want it to be able to do that while also standing still I have no idea

[versed rune]

I don’t get this mentality of “small animals are allowed to do crazy shit to things 3-4 times bigger, god forbid carno can damage something 100lbs bigger than it we need 4 nerfs”

[placid reef]

just buff its acceleration or turning, thats in a nutshell the only thing carno needs rn

[versed rune]

It’s accel and turn are fine

The problem is that carno is weak as hell and predictable af

[hot lintel]

Utah is quite literally intended to be a big game hunter in packs and Pachy is supposed to break something on the Carno and run away, I woldn't call that crazy shit, that's jsut basic balancing, you however want Carno to stun a Stego with a charge to the head

[placid reef]

not for something that needs to ambush to succeed and waits 60 years to reach full speed, to start an ability that makes a big af roar so everybody knwos you are coming, and you turn worse than a yacht on land, i wonder why its predictable...

[hot lintel]

It 3 shots Utah and Pachy I don't see how tf you can call it weak as hell

[versed rune]

Yes I do want carno to stun a stego with a charge to its head. Because how would that logically not deal damage?

And what happens if the carno slams into the stego’s side accidentally? Nothing good for the carno I bet.

And I also think pachy should be able to do the same, although there is less of a necessity for it, cuz herbivore

[placid reef]

carno is just predictable bc it either turns way to slow or takes to long to reach itsspeed, also the fact it makes a loud af noise, when it needs to ambush... in plains...

[hot lintel]

Yeah, the answer is just making the Carno able to get momentum faster, not giving it a bs stun that invalidates half the roster

[versed rune]

So is carno the “expert small game hunter” or not

[hot lintel]

It is

[versed rune]

So what’s the problem with it saying fuck you to smalls with a headswing

[placid reef]

wave made an idea where if it crouches for a bit it can reach full srpint imediatly at the cost of a lot of stam, i added that it could turn much better when crouched, esnetially this making it into a turret with 1 shot

[hot lintel]

If you're having trouble hunting Pachys and Utahs in the middle of the field that's on you

[versed rune]

It would literally only apply if the smalls are trying to FIGHT it

Very rarely would a headswing come into play in a chase

[hot lintel]

Cause the smalls literally fucking need to get in the swing's range to even do anything to a Carno

[placid reef]

i mean if you just come out of nowhere 1 call and start chasng one of them thats on the carno, but even ambushing its not given

[versed rune]

So literally juke it.

[hot lintel]

Pachy needs to fight the Carno to even be able to get away because just running won't do it

[hot lintel]

As if juking the spammable bite that does a third of your health isn't enough already, you also have to juke a bs stun that's gonna render you dead

[versed rune]

Again

How in gods name is a stationary directional headswing going to make carno op while chasing

[placid reef]

we already have pachy with just juke it and we see how that goes, now take that and turn it to 11 and makes it 4 times heavier...

[versed rune]

Yeah but pachy turns on a dime and is a tiny target? The same logic doesn’t apply

[placid reef]

bruh, you agree that pachys alt is bs rn, a stun headswing is just that times 4

[hot lintel]

I never said it would, it would just make the Carno near unapproachable for something that absolutely needs to approach it

[versed rune]

Yeah because it’s fast as hell and knocks down things its size

[hot lintel]

I guess "just juke it" applies to Carno and only Carno

"Just juke the Deino lunge bro"

[versed rune]

Karen that analogy makes zero sense

[placid reef]

nah deinos version is just dont go to water duh

[hot lintel]

twas a joke but yes, make fun of my username cause that makes your argument more valid

[versed rune]

What

I was saying your name so didnt have to tag u bro

Chill

[hot lintel]

People are already calling for stuns to be reworked/removed cause of how annoying they are to deal with

I guess the solution is to just put them on everything

That surely will solve the problem

[versed rune]

And I agree with that, they’re total BS for the most part

Utah specifically

He just lays there for 5 seconds

[placid reef]

then stop wanting them on everything untill we see how they end up in the future, bc rn they are garbage

yes if stuns were good rn, or down the line it'd be cool to want more dinos to have them but rn its not the time

[versed rune]

Wdym bro teno being able to spam its power move while everything else has to combo into another attack is fair and balanced

[hot lintel]

Running into a Teno's ass should only leave you with a scratch Ig

[versed rune]

You’re missing my point again

[placid reef]

teno is by no way designed as good as it can be, solely by how you put it spams its sole attack, teno needs to combo just as much as the rest, having 1 trick pony move is a boering way to design smth, like utah

[hot lintel]

It had something going for it when it could hit you with a kick and combo it with a tail slam but something got fucked along the way cause the kick seems to just not have a hitbox anymore

You can kick a carno right in the scrotum and it won't do shit

[placid reef]

imo kick should stun and tail fracture or other way around

[hot lintel]

Replacing stuns with fractures won't help at all lol

[versed rune]

If I had my way stuns wouldn’t exist and knockdowns would be the only thing, and they’d be much less punishing than right now

[placid reef]

its the idea to move parts of the slam utility to other moves like kick

[hot lintel]

You got hit by a tail slam once, guess you're blind for the next 10 minutes

[versed rune]

Stuns just feel so much more unfair than knockdowns

[hot lintel]

How would you balance Teno without stuns?

[placid reef]

i dont like knockdowsn that much either with how you just plop to the ground like some cartoon

well i like it for teno bc it makes sense for its slam

[hot lintel]

A Carno just face tanks your ass, you can't shake it off, can't stun it, it just sits there and downs half your health before dying to the raw damage, sounds fair

[versed rune]

Kick deals more damage than current and also knockdown, tail slam shit while it’s on the ground after a kick

[placid reef]

imo keep staggers for the dinos like teno, and the rest that just get it as a bonus give them a knock

[hot lintel]

So a tail slam stunning a Carno is somehow unfair but a kick knocking a Carno down is fair?

[placid reef]

so stagger is part of the identity and knocks are for dinos that get stuns as a bonus like pachy and carno

[versed rune]

This is for combo incentive. If a teno kicked a carno in the jaw that’s gonna hurt

Granted I’m just spitballing ideas here too

Because most things would be better than what we got currently

[hot lintel]

That never happens cause of how hitboxes work, you're almost never gonna get a headshot on a Carno with a kick, it's hard to get it even with a tail

[versed rune]

So increase the hitbox?

[hot lintel]

I really don't see a problem with how current Teno works, it's worked like this since update 2 and for some reason people are just now whining about it

[hot lintel]

There's only so much you can increase it until it hits shit that doesn't even get physically touched by the feet

[placid reef]

teno has just a bit to much damage for slam but other thna reducing that just bring more incentive to use kicks too/ combo

[versed rune]

The issue is that stuns are objectively bullshit

Especially when they don’t actually hit you which with teno is like 50% of the time

[hot lintel]

They aren't

You only have to deal with them if you run into a Teno's ass which you're never supposed to do

Broken hitboxes and desync aside of course

I'd be ok with buffing Carno charge damage, making it take less time to get the momentum, even getting its bite back to 200, but the bite speed needs to be nerfed and don't give it a bs stationary stun cause that's just stupid

[placid reef]

map/ diet design forces people to fight 24/7, the revelation

more dinos wont change that the map and diets rn are designed like garbage, before they start adding more they need to fix these 2 aspects

its just adding more fuel to the fire

[hexed sorrel]

@vocal gorge sounds like the playerbase problem not the actual devs fault

[vocal gorge]

I see your point- however

When I play ptera I don’t have this consistent competition. Pteranodon doesn’t have any main competitors, just has to be wary of where it lands. With its niche it doesn’t have to directly compete against other creatures to survive, making gameplay a lot less tense

[hexed sorrel]

to be fair, ptera isnt on the main carnivores diets. so there is no real point of killing them, not fun because they cant fight back aswell

by main carnivores i mean terrestrial like utah and carno because ain't no way a deino catching a ptera.

[half girder]

roster and map ruin the game atm

i saw some really really questionable stuff sent in another cord and it made me laugh

[wheat ridge]

all the balance issues are bizzare, its still a minority who plays herbis even in there current state ( quite good ) and people want them to be nerfed and even carnis buffed, all this will lead to ( just like in legacy) 95% carni population, seems like even if you make herbis really powerful, barely anyone plays them and if you nerf them they barely exist + designing them in the first place seemed pointless, im really curious how the devs will fix this issue

[spring dagger]

Still a minority? all i've seen is herbis consistently on EU1 and EU2

Herbis are in such a good spot atm so people gravitate to what is strongest, mainly pachy and stego

[wheat ridge]

idk i always see a ton of crocs , carnos and uhtas and maybe 10 herbis at oasis

[spring dagger]

On NA?

[wheat ridge]

EU

[spring dagger]

huh

Weird, i was just on there and there were like 30 gorillion herbis there

[haughty summit]

I'm a ptera on EU2

[wheat ridge]

its werid, people only paly herbis when they are really good, as soon as they are slightly weaker than same tier carnis, people stop playing them, maybe because everyone just thinks carnis are cooler

[haughty summit]

the majority of the gaming community will always gravitate to what's the strongest 🙂

[wheat ridge]

ye but as soon as herbis are the srongest people cry

[haughty summit]

That's because nobody wants to loose 🙂

[wheat ridge]

ye probably true

[haughty summit]

despite herbi's having a better arsenal of "weaponry" to defend themselves with

[wheat ridge]

well im really curious how the devs will fix this, ignore the issue and just release more interesting and new dinos or nerf herbis and go back to the old the isle of carnis

[kindred estuary]

A lot of people just have carnivores as their favorite dinos since they were kids. All three of my sons favorite animal happens to be t rex for instance.

[haughty summit]

Depends on how they want their game to feel I geuss 😦

[haughty summit]

mine has and always will be the smaller ones like hypsis and austros 😄

[kindred estuary]

Mines been Allo. I always thought having strong arms made it cooler than rex.

[wheat ridge]

ye im hyped lol, tbh i play both sides but carnos hunger drain is cancer, i would play it way more if this wasn a thing, i just want more herbis to exist because legacy was crap when it came to herbi population and hunting herbis was almost non existent

[wheat ridge]

ye cant wait for allo and dilo

[kindred estuary]

I am even pumped for cerato.

I guess im just a big theropod simp.

[wheat ridge]

tbh i pumped for everything that isnt he current roaster xD

[haughty summit]

I'll spit in all you're faces as a hypsi and cackle while running circles as you struggle to regain vision

[kindred estuary]

I really like hypsie tbh.

Its the games tomfoolery setting.

[wheat ridge]

you barely can see anything as hypsie, i hope they so something with the camera

[placid reef]

herbis should be stronger than the equivalent, but not by day and night of a dif like it is now

[fresh laurel]

how different would you say you wanna make teno vs carno compared to now?

or even utah vs pachy

[kindred estuary]

Especially when we consider that the preditors typically have a speed advantage, which allows them to dictate the engagements that happen.

[fresh laurel]

speed helps but when the herbis are this strong....

[kindred estuary]

Herbies should be strong. If they are not, they will disappear.

[spring dagger]

Herbi's biggest strength is the groups they can form tbh

Diets also is heavily herbivore favoured atm

[kindred estuary]

Slight advantage is all im advocating for herbies.

[spring dagger]

I do agree, having herbis be stronger than carnivore contemporaries is a good thing; but this night and day difference is fucked.

The only thing that can hunt a teno is a carno.

[kindred estuary]

Yeah, agreed.

[spring dagger]

Stego is unkillable, Pachy is too strong for it's own good and needs a fucking nerf.

And it got one tbf

But even still, the ALT still does a little too much damage when it should be a utility move, the charge is fine though i would like to see the tap charge COMPLETELY removed from the game but that's just my own personal bias since i've hated it since MT

Generally i think the jist in terms of dietary needs should be this:

Herbis are stronger but require 2 diets to not incur any negatives.

Carnivores are weaker, can go for longer periods of time without food and have to get 1 diet to not incur any negatives.

That way there is an actual incentive to migrate, even with diet spread there is no incentive to actually keep to your diet since the negatives are non-impactful

[kindred estuary]

I would like it if carnivore could go a bit longer without food.

[spring dagger]

Ye

[placid reef]

not this strong, what we have now is borderline bs

[placid reef]

pachy dominates 1 utah and equal chances versus 2, carno gets fucked by teno in tenos biome and vice versa

[fresh laurel]

pachy vs utah ngl should be slightly more fair

teno has a too easy time with carno

[placid reef]

1 utah should have very small chances against a pachy

2 should be where its fair for both

2 utahs v 1 pachy i mean

same would be for minmi, proto, you would need more of the equivalent carni to have a fair matchup

as they are built to fight/ resist to what would hunt them more

[fresh laurel]

how much kg would mono be if you had to think

[placid reef]

320~

around austro or less

[fresh laurel]

herrera?

[placid reef]

around the same

maybe 250

[fresh laurel]

ngl

really wish I could fight back against pounces

when I get pinned by a utah my own size and stuff

[fresh laurel]

just figured out frosty is a undercover dev

[sinful cove]

Dondi's secret alt account

[fresh laurel]

wouldnt be surprised if he was testing us with dumb suggestions

maybe seeing how dumb we really are if we vote yes

[barren oracle]

Frosty always has the best suggestions

[spare badger]

@alpine plover I see where you're coming from but that would totally destroy teno, since it would take much too long to kill a single carno.
Teno fights by punishing the attacker with a stun then doing a lot of damage. Without a good way to do damage teno would be as useless as in the MT patch.

While I agree teno is a little too good nerfing it's punish potential is definitely not the way to do it

Maybe nerfing the stun duration slightly could work but increasing the endlag of slam would be quite devastating imo

[hollow canyon]

@alpine plover
It's the exact opposite of what you're saying - giving Tenonto a cooldown on its tailslam would cause Carno to absolutely butcher it. Tenonto simply needs to have the damage nerfed, it's as simple as that.

In general you got the two reversed - decreasing the damage of the tailslam is a sensible way to balance it out as it doesn't outright invalidate the animal. If anything you can also decrease the stamina cost for it causing it to deal less damage but be available at a lower cost. Meanwhile putting a cooldown on this attack would outright make the animal hot garbage.

I also don't know about tinkering with the stun duration, it might be one way of going about it but I don't understand what's so hard to grasp in the idea that the issue with Tenonto is the absurd damage output that it has on this attack. This is the third most damaging attack in the game, it's the only attack on the animals other than Stego and Deino that HASN'T had its damage toned down when all the smaller animals got hit with the balance patch 3.75.

It simply needs to be put in its place like all the other attacks were.

[unborn iris]

Yeah, thought it was kind of crazy they reverted the damage back to original after the nerf. From 360 to 200, which was too weak.. so instead of trying something in the middle they put it right back to almost double again at 360.

[hollow canyon]

Yea, that's exactly the issue

Although to be fair I think the nerf only lowered it to 250

then again the issue there was that it still kept the same stamina cost

You can't have this attack that takes this much stamina deal much less damage and keep the stamina cost the same, idk what they were thinking

just decrease the stam cost to idk 5-6% and it will be fine

I'd personally make it higher than 250 but I think it could work even with that much damage since Carno's damage output was also nerfed

The longer the fights between roughly same-sized animals last the better it is in my opinion

with Carno it works neat because you have to charge a Tenonto multiple times before you actually kill it

it should be the same for Tenonto, rather than having it so that one kills the other with a single hit of the special ability or vice versa

[unborn iris]

I feel like there's just a lot of bad carnos too, though. I've never had trouble with tenos as a carno. Not that I just kill them every time, but if you get caught 95% of the time you're not dead and can just go away and heal up to try again.

[hollow canyon]

I mean... a good Tenonto will almost kill you if they land a CC on you

they can take out some ~1500 health if they play it correctly

[unborn iris]

That works nicely in a vacuum. But most of the time a teno isn't landing all those headshots like that.

[hollow canyon]

Also - just for the record

[unborn iris]

I'm sure it happens. But not in-practice so much.

[hollow canyon]

Gaming Para and Dashark are probably the most notorious Teno and Carno players on this discord

they went from being 50/50 in 3.5

to Tenonto not losing a single fight now after the changes

[unborn iris]

Interesting.

[hollow canyon]

So yea I'd say that there's definitely some issue balance-wise

[barren oracle]

Or like 1900 if they get headshots

[hollow canyon]

Nah, that was with headshots

I assumed it would hit 3

that leaves Carno with some ~~180 health I think?

[barren oracle]

4 if da stun is a headshot

[hollow canyon]

If it hits 4 the Carno just dies

[barren oracle]

Which isn’t too hard at this point

[hollow canyon]

you don't always get to hit 4 but yea, in general it's possible to 100-0 a Carno

[barren oracle]

What’s the carno gonna do? Turn? Pfffft

[hollow canyon]

it doesn't always happen, it's not even that common

but still that shouldn't be happening at all

[unborn iris]

It is definitely possible. And I haven't played a whole hell of a lot of carno. But it's never happened to me and I have the most fun with the carno teno matchup.

[hollow canyon]

I feel that the devs decreasing the damage output of both animals were on the right track, it's just that Tenonto needed some compensatory buffs

[barren oracle]

I have no fun with any matchups anymore

[hollow canyon]

It happened to me when I was the Tenonto, it never happened to me when I was a Carno

[unborn iris]

Maybe they've altered the charge vs tail mechanic.. but it was pretty easy to just charge a teno over and over.

[barren oracle]

They always play out the same

[hollow canyon]

Then again - I barely touch Carno on this patch because it's just... not good

[barren oracle]

Maybe perks will be able to change that, like a perk that lowers carno charge damage while adding fracture damage

[unborn iris]

When I played carno in mechanic test, the teno had to not get hit with the charge at all for it's tail to count.

[hollow canyon]

No, please, no fracture on Carno's charge

[unborn iris]

Otherwise the carno charge cancelled it.

[hollow canyon]

I don't want that in the game again

[barren oracle]

Not large one like in QA

That was awful

[hollow canyon]

In general atm avoiding the charge is really easy and even if you get hit with it it doesn't really matter all that much

Carno has to charge you multiple times to kill you

[barren oracle]

Charge is irrelevant rn smh

[unborn iris]

How is it irrelevant.

[hollow canyon]

It's not per se irrelevant but a good player won't let you land the charge on them enough to where it will matter

[barren oracle]

Never see it used

[hollow canyon]

it is relevant because it's the only chance Carno has vs Tenonto

[unborn iris]

Because carno attracts some pretty bad players.

[barren oracle]

People kinda dodge it and it’s just not used in the rest of the fight

[unborn iris]

And that's why they think carno is so bad.

That's the problem, people try to brawl with carno. You hit and run.

[hollow canyon]

but nevertheless if it messes up once you can either send it to its grave or have it go heal up for the next 10 minutes or so

Nah, Carno is just bad

[barren oracle]

Frosty isn’t bad wdym

[unborn iris]

Ok?

[barren oracle]

He has peak suggestions

[hollow canyon]

Carno has one thing going for itself atm - it's the speed

[barren oracle]

#balance-feedback message

[hollow canyon]

the issue is that it has multiple downsides accompanying that

[unborn iris]

Right now I think carno's main issues are food consumption.

[hollow canyon]

it needs either a buff to its acceleration or a buff to its turn rate

it definitely needs a buff to the walking/standing/trotting turn

Idk why those were even nerfed in the first place

Like sure - it shouldn't turn well while charging or running

but why should it take forever to turn while it's just standing?

[unborn iris]

To stop them from just standing there and brawling as easily. You could fight off multiple utahs before just by standing your ground and spinning with them.

[hollow canyon]

Carno should be beating Utahs though

[unborn iris]

The only reason I don't play carno right now is because every second of your time is spent finding the next meal. Like literally no break, it's tedious as fuck. But I really like how carno feels right now.

[hollow canyon]

idk what's so surprising about that

[unborn iris]

But not like that.

Now the utahs have some kind of chance.

[barren oracle]

I just want more carnivores ™️

[hollow canyon]

Carno feels like hot garbage atm, I've played it for a bit and it's just ooof

Idk why anyone would choose this animal over Tenonto/Pachy or even Utah

each one of those played much better

I mean yea - the Utahs have some kind of chance because they got fixed after however many months of being hot garbage

[barren oracle]

Nah Utah boring and hard

[hollow canyon]

if a Utah dies to a Carno now they should seriously consider uninstalling

how you can get hit by that thing now is absolutely beyond me

[unborn iris]

I feel like we may be playing a slightly different game. But to each their own.

[hollow canyon]

Yea I definitely feel like we're playing a slightly different game

The hunger drain is really just a nail in the coffin

I probably wouldn't mind it all that much if the animal was actually good

if something is good but demanding then that's fine with me

when it's hot garbage and also a complete vacuum cleaner that needs to eat its own bodyweight every 45 minutes or so then that's a problem

I also think that your impression of it being ok now might be based on the fact that it's bad Utahs that you're playing against or bad Tenontos, just like you're speaking about most Carnos being bad

Tenonto is definitely a far more demanding animal skill-wise just by its design

it's currently carried by its damage being overloaded so even a pretty bad player can pull it off but in normal circumstances this shouldn't really be a thing

[frail flicker]

i do think the food drain for carno wouldnt be as bad if bodys actually gave decent amounts of food, it feels like you constantly have to shovel food into your mouth playing as anything its absurd

[spare badger]

How much damage did Tenonto do in U 3.5?

[hollow canyon]

360N - same as it does now

Tenonto is the only animal that hasn't been hit with the damage nerf on 3.75

[alpine plover]

Damage nerfed would just put it back where it was in 3.75

[hollow canyon]

...or should I say - the tailslam is the only attack that hasn't been hit with it

[spare badger]

I see

[hollow canyon]

...it had the same damage on 3.75?

[alpine plover]

No it was horrible then

[spare badger]

That was MT

[hollow canyon]

No, it wasn't, you're confusing 3.75 with MT

[spare badger]

In MT it was like 250

[alpine plover]

Oh wait yeah

[hollow canyon]

3.75 Tenonto had the same damage it has now

on MT it was bad because its damage got nerfed while its cost remained the same

it should be obvious that if you nerf the damage all across the board for all the animals then the ones that have a stamina cost should get a lowered stamina cost

idk what's so hard to grasp about that

Even then I'm not arguing to lower it quite that much

[spare badger]

All the damage values got nerfed preceding the health = weight change correct?

[hollow canyon]

I'd put it at... 290 probably?

[hollow canyon]

They got nerfed along with that change

it all happened over that one patch - the health changes and the damage changes, all of it simultaneously

Carno lost 40% of its damage output, Utah something like 60% iirc, Dro lost the vast majority of its damage

so did Pteranodon

Tenonto is literally the only one that got out of that patch "unscathed"(damage-wise, it got certain other nerfs)

[alpine plover]

I think another problem is Teno has such a good turn radius you can’t get any bite in without being stunned by Tailslam

[spare badger]

That's not a problem at all

Unless you stop running

Or are too obvious

If slam was nerfed in line with the rest
Like 290 ish
Maybe reduce the stam cost a little but otherwise it should be alright

[alpine plover]

Then again Carno has such a long body it gets hit on the tail and takes lots of damage

The tail needs its own section to take less damage

[spare badger]

It already does

Base of the tail and tip of the tail

[alpine plover]

Doesn’t really feel like it

[spare badger]

Probably desync then

The problem with carnos hunting tenos alone is that they aren't agile enough to avoid tenos attacks most of the time
Which is why in pairs or groups carnos fair a lot better since the Tenonto's attention is on both at once

Kinda like in the concept art

[hollow canyon]

It's quite simple, Tenonto needs to have its damage toned down and Carno needs some QoL buffs, what exactly? That's up for debate

Tenonto is a really clear cut-case though, it does too much damage with the tailslam

it shouldn't be either oneshotting Utahs nor 4shotting Carnos

[spare badger]

I'm fine with it oneshotting Utah with a headshot

Honestly I dislike teno knocking over things less than its weight
I feel that it should be lower than that
Tenonto knocking cerato over doesn't feel right

[alpine plover]

For QOL Carno I would say slightly more stamina a little bit more health and maybe slightly less damage

[spare badger]

I would say give carno more stam and a better turn when stationary/trotting

[hollow canyon]

That's probably the weirdest suggestion ever... why would Carno need more health? And why would you nerf its damage even further? It's already been hit so many times now that it's down to 50% of what it used to be

Higher stamina could be alright I guess but I'm not exactly in favour of that either

Making Carno go out of stam should be one of the ways of defending against it

I'd just give it a better trot so that it doesn't have to run around from place to place if anything

Imo the thing it needs the most is either better turn rate or better acceleration, potentially a mix of both

[fresh laurel]

yes please

[spare badger]

I wouldn't touch carnos running turn radius, carno turning like a bus while running is fine

That's the design of the animal they seem to be going for

[alpine plover]

Idk I feel like Carno doesn’t have that much health

For what it should

[spare badger]

Carno has 1800
It's quite a lot

Carno does not need to be heavier

[hollow canyon]

It has the highet health out of all the... let's call them "not big" animals

[alpine plover]

Probably just tenos high damage

[spare badger]

Carno is in a fine size range

[alpine plover]

Carno does need tweaking but what is for debate

[spare badger]

Not it's health that's for sure

Carno is fine balance wise imo
It's just surrounded by very tough herbis

[alpine plover]

True

[spare badger]

Carnos main food sources are supposed to be things like dryo and galli

And medium dinos in pairs

[alpine plover]

I think a main problem for carnivores in general is that herds are basically immortal

And we don’t really have anything that hunts herds