balance-feedback-discussion

[hollow canyon]

Does Pachy still cancel attacks?

Does it have its juvie animations?

[placid reef]

pretty sure it will always cancel pounce as thats the intended idea but idk bout teno/ carno

[hollow canyon]

No, it's definitely not

That's a bug, I know that for sure

[placid reef]

did the devs say that?

[hollow canyon]

note - canceling attacks and stunning

are two different things

wait, I think I will need to find that video, becaue you seem to be unaware of what Pachy can do

[placid reef]

oh wait, are our refering to overriding abilities or smth else bc i was thinking of the former

[hollow canyon]

Basically - if you use the ram at the right time you can stop a Stego from attacking in the middle of its tail whack

and receive no damage

[placid reef]

ahh, isnt that what happens in that teno v pachy video?

[hollow canyon]

same goes for Deino - it's lunging/biting you and you just cancel that completely making it go yahooooo

[hollow canyon]

yes... I think? No idea, show me the video

it's the reason why Pachy doesn't get splattered on the ground by Tenonto's tailslam if that's what you're asking

as it was intended during the MT that Tenonto would dumpster Pachy

the change was supposed to make it so that tailslam is prioritised over the ram

but it doesn't work like that

or hasn't last I've heard/checked

[placid reef]

ye, same for most other abilities except pounce, pachy shouldnt take priority over most stuff

[hollow canyon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WqiUvr7ofo

that's what I'm talking about with "canceling" ^

"This" is not intended

no matter how Pachy-lovers put it and what kind of mental gymnastics they commit to to defend this abomination

it's getting nerfed, the question is when

...and yes that's a juvie Pachy stunning and cancelling attacks of a fully grown Carno there

[alpine plover]

tbf no animal should have an outright advantage over another animal

[placid reef]

its on a testing map/ QA where it was a teno and pachy fighting and pachy canceled all of the tail slams

[placid reef]

juvie pachy can also stagger an adult carno lmao, more reasons i hate the stun system, including stagger and knocks

[hollow canyon]

Tbf a tonne of animals should have outright advantages over other animals. Pachy is not one of those animals though unless we're talking about it having an advantage over Dryo/Hypsi

[alpine plover]

perhaps there should be a bit of unfairness towards carnivores to make hunting something that takes some skill, but there still should be balance

[hollow canyon]

Why though? Carnivores are required to kill stuff to stay alive(and they have to kill a lot of it as it is)

it should be perhaps slightly in favour of herbivores in most cases

[placid reef]

carno should by no means get stunned/ stopped by pachy in no condition except if carno is stationary and pachy is running charge

[hollow canyon]

but just slightly

[alpine plover]

Yes

[placid reef]

thats what he meant there

[alpine plover]

but like hunting should take skill rather than blind pouncing or whatever

[hollow canyon]

This game has pretty much never been about blind pouncing though

in general I'd say that carnivores are more or less in an alright-ish spots

it's herbivores that need nerfhammer coming their way

all of them for different reasons

[placid reef]

in balance not design to be more clear

[hollow canyon]

well yes

I'd argue that there's hardly any animal in the game that is well designed right now

[placid reef]

tho there was one suggestion for carno that i really like and might just be it for carno, and utah... i persoanlly made plenty of suggestions for this poor bastard

[hollow canyon]

in Evrima that is

[placid reef]

deino is if we exclude diets... but designed well doesnt mean good for a game

[hollow canyon]

No, it's really not

it's probably around the top of awfully designed animals as far as I'm concerned

[placid reef]

it supposed to sit there and just wait to lunge, and it does that, diets and map fuck it over so it cant do that

[hollow canyon]

going by that logic Tenonto is a well designed creature because it's supposed to CC and tailslam stuff to its death and it does just that

Utah's supposed to pounce stuff and bleed it and it does that too

[placid reef]

well teno would be way more complex, deino doesnt have much going for it... but ye, fair

when you have to be stationary to survive bu default you are just the most basic designs

[spring dagger]

feels good to obliterate herds as a carno now tho

c:

[placid reef]

so they only fixed tap charge?

[spring dagger]

Yeah from what i gathered

the ALT is still borked

[placid reef]

well 1 down, a thousand more to go...

[spring dagger]

I think the ALT change would mean that pachy is balanced but i really like the changes to it's tap for carno, so many braindead idiots still thinking its OP

just murdered 10 pachys on EU1 with a mate just now

[placid reef]

glad that they are taking a more agreesive stand to balancing/ fixing, o more 2 updates till next update for now

also that u5 beeing a much simpler update they can do this

[hollow canyon]

Riiight... "much simpler"

[placid reef]

its just skins and nesting (which already has finished all the courting anim)

also ik they will find a way to make it 4 months

[spring dagger]

Ok so just to tally up the kills we got:

We killed 9 pachys
1 teno,
1 stego
2 utahs

as two carnos

All at mud pond

[placid reef]

did any pachy tap charge? and how many fully charged?

[spring dagger]

One full charged and stunned my mate for 3 seconds which almost got him killed, the rest tap charged

The tap STILL does fracture and damage but it doesnt stun, which is fair

[placid reef]

so pachy isnt defenseless against larger oponents either, nice

[spring dagger]

Yeah it is very balanced against carno atm. They just need to fix utah

[placid reef]

well it prob does just less farcture damage

[spring dagger]

Nah it still takes two headbutts to fracture a carno, but it does a metric ass tonne of damage now

Like 1/4 with every hit, give or take

[placid reef]

pachy players v carno: w...we have to have skill...?!

[spring dagger]

I literally walked into the face of 4 of them and they didnt do shit to me

Other than body fracture, partly because one guy just hit me and the others kept hitting eachother

[placid reef]

do you feel like they could've escaped if they tried to?

[spring dagger]

Yes and no

They were in the open plains bit near mud pond but i was body fractured and the stam usage is pretty bad with body fracture and carno in general.

I feel the matchup is pretty fair overall. If you facetank a carno you deserve to die but you can sitll put out damage

[placid reef]

right, so idealy their diet would be more in forests/ small plains and maybe have to migrate trough a large plain from time to time for the shortest route or just go forest and spend more time

[spring dagger]

Yeah, Pachy would be restricted to forests

[placid reef]

forests and small plain pockets like in some forests

[spring dagger]

ye

Overall i think its fair. I dont have any complaints aside from ALT spam but thats it

[placid reef]

but imo every small should need to migrate trough large plains for 1 diet, for carnos sake

maybe not hypsi and a few others

[barren oracle]

Stun lock

[spring dagger]

Doesnt work on carno anymore

Unless it's a full charge which is fine

[fresh laurel]

How would they do that lol

[spring dagger]

The match up between pachy and utah is what i was referring to

[placid reef]

alt for one...

[spring dagger]

The ALT should deflect pounce but an animation plays where you throw them to the ground for massive damage and stam cost

idk, its abit contentious

ALT just stunning you and then fucking you over like that is stupid and not fun

Could even just be like a bucking thing where like you throw them and the utah lands on its feet but you still do the dmg to them

Making bleed less redundant through my proposition could also work though

[fresh laurel]

This

And bleed being slighly faster ig

[placid reef]

wdym? utah already bleeds pachy like theres no tomorrow

[fresh laurel]

Im saying for bigger targets

Ahem le stego...

Not sure on carno

[placid reef]

it doesnt scale, stego just has more blood pool

[fresh laurel]

Teno bleeds good

[placid reef]

also stego is inherent anti utah too

[placid reef]

ye 1.6k blood pool vs 6k

i wonder why...

[fresh laurel]

Thought utah was gonna put stego into its place

[placid reef]

i mean rn its the best one for that but realistically def not, utah is a thorn for ceratopsians

[fresh laurel]

If carno cant beat them then utah since dies to well... carno

[fresh laurel]

How so

What would make utah pack vs trike better than stego

[wise sparrow]

Weak flanks

Stego has a huge tail to protect it while trike has its head. Nova will have a way easier time with trike

[fresh laurel]

I wonder if utah could pounce trike back...

[fresh laurel]

Nova...

[placid reef]

stego is a reverse trike (trike for the sake of simplicity) its main form of defense is at its back on its tail, it inherently has the best flank defense bc it can swing the most damage in the game, trike is the other way, its damage is on its head, heavy, bulky and good large game brawlers, but their flanks are notoriously weak

[wise sparrow]

I prefer apolloraptor honestly

[fresh laurel]

Me too

[scenic flame]

generic the best way to deal with stego.....just walk away there is an entire map

[sinful cove]

a good 90% of stegos are all bunched at one spot on the map almost every time anyway. easy to avoid, i always do

the one good thing about oasis is it quarantines most of the isle's cancer players

[scenic flame]

yeah and if your another herbivore there are other places to get food you dont need to stay near oasis

[calm ibex]

i dont recall stego being such a "issue" before this patch even though its been in the game for quite a while, which is why i think its more of a diet / map issue than playable

[sinful cove]

diet is one of the big factors

since the devs thought it was a good idea to put every herbi food at one spot, a spot that also has shallow water and a wallowing pit

herbivore food should be distributed randomly all over its biomes, rather than in clusters

[alpine plover]

I think Stego was always an issue in terms of overall balance, but it’s tremendously worse now because of the diet locations and map layout

[sinful cove]

the oasis invites easy mix packing and other toxic behaviour

[placid reef]

well randomly in the respective biomes of each, you meant, right?

[sinful cove]

yeah like agave should just be in all dry plains and coconuts should just be all along the coastal plains

[alpine plover]

It’s quite literally impossible to play utah or carno right now due to the mixherding situation

Center pond is a big part of that problem

[sinful cove]

rather than "i gotta go to one of these specific spots on the coast to find coconuts"

i play utah without issue, but unfortunately i dont get a lot of good player interactions because of oasis

[alpine plover]

usually have to wait for a herbivore to leave center pond to actually fight it

or else you’ll get like

3 fps

[sinful cove]

idk if im just lucky but i can usually come across boars or juvie carnos when im on utah

[calm ibex]

i would not use word "impossible", i've been able to play both without issues however i tend to play on the eastern river and swamp
(the map border lag around mud pool at oasis is just unplayable)

[placid reef]

if they can section of larger biomes into sections and smaller bioms as a section etc they can just set that each one will have some set plants that spawn randomly there as long as there is 1 plant there and maybe 10 across all sectors

[sinful cove]

without visiting the cancer that is oasis, but sadly it means i rarely get to have actually enjoyable fights

[alpine plover]

carnotaurus has it worse than utah as well

Constant starvation

[sinful cove]

i feel bad for deinos lol

[alpine plover]

Deino is just

[placid reef]

i feel bad for carnis

[alpine plover]

it’s there

[placid reef]

except ptera, he's spectator mode not carni

[alpine plover]

Ptera just does whatever

[calm ibex]

however if stego is removed would it not be only fair to downsize deino to 4tons too, now it can still lunge rest of the roster without being unkillable (also remove bleed resist so utahs are not useless) 🙂

[sinful cove]

we pteras got it easy because there's always fish and it literally cant die of thirst unless the player controlling it is actually braindead

[placid reef]

or just make utahs not need to fight deino...

[calm ibex]

lets say stego was not in atm, what do you think would happen at oasis mudpool? it would be guarded by same players using crocs

[alpine plover]

so essentially, the ecosystem currently is one massive pile of garbage

carno constantly starving 24/7, deino sitting in the water waiting to die by another deino, utah scavenging like the little rat it is and herbivores just sitting in one area till the end of time

also ptera

ptera is there I guess

[wise sparrow]

Just ptera

It's a thing.

[sinful cove]

ptera is the least problematic animal

[alpine plover]

he can fly

[wise sparrow]

...and?

[alpine plover]

and has a cool beak

and a neat 2 call

[wise sparrow]

Oh and he can fly!

[sinful cove]

pt's gameplay is swallow fish and spam call because nobody can stop you

[alpine plover]

Yes

[calm ibex]

ptera should be encouraged into interacting with rest of the roster, being reduced to fish sim which it is right now is lame

[alpine plover]

Increase pteras damage 🙂

[placid reef]

honestly, humans would help with that once they are finished, no more than 1 bullet

[scenic flame]

idk why you think carno starves it has access to food away from oasis if you starve its because you are hanging around where you dont have access to food

[calm ibex]

i had some of the most fun in evrima as ptera hunting juvies before that shit got nerfed 😿

[alpine plover]

you can’t really hunt anything when everything is at the pond defending each other

[sinful cove]

fish, hypsi which makes 0 sense, and rabbits which also make no sense. maybe in the future he'll get eggs on his diet, and i know carcasses are supposed to be a thing for pt too so he'll have more runins if he isnt cautious

[alpine plover]

I barley managed to survive with my carno, luckily there was a teno by itself in the plains

[scenic flame]

go eat deer that on a carno diet

[sinful cove]

pt can still kill juvie carnos is the juvie carnos are too confident

[alpine plover]

Mini quetz

[wise sparrow]

Ah yes the deer that dont respawn and fill 2% of your food

[scenic flame]

they spawn near the swamp

[sinful cove]

idk why carno doesnt have boar on its diet. bastards are everywhere

[scenic flame]

i find them all the time

[alpine plover]

diets as of now are

[wise sparrow]

By the time you catch one and eat it you will have lost more than you gained from the last

[alpine plover]

Carno megapacks

Gotta love em

Just attack everything until they all eventually starve out one by one

In the never ending cycle of torment

[scenic flame]

i mean you can still eat what you kill just wont get nutrients

[sinful cove]

honestly theyd probably starve a bit slower if they stopped broadcast spamming so every solo player knows where not to go

[calm ibex]

i never understood people who take part on it like, "lets wipe the server and spam 1 call and starve"

[wise sparrow]

But I'm a large apex predator so i have to roar after killing a frog!!!!!

[alpine plover]

Victory roar!

[sinful cove]

"rawr xd wait why are you running away"

[alpine plover]

Carnos still not knowing that you can’t charge a stego

Had like 3 other carnos die because they tried to charge a stego

[sinful cove]

carnos coming to the feedback channels after charging a stego and dying "i was hungry so i should have been able to kill it"

[sinful cove]

reminds me of my last experience in a utah pack vs a tenonto

why i usually go solo

[alpine plover]

this 1.8 ton animal that’s supposed to suck at killing things larger than itself died to this 6 ton monster tank with swords on its tail

[alpine plover]

What happened

[sinful cove]

leader says "tenonto", the only word uttered before the whole pack runs single file towards the tenonto and each of them is tail slammed to death

it was hilarious as fuck i felt like i was watching ai

[alpine plover]

Most intelligent utah player

[placid reef]

when was this? like what update

[sinful cove]

it was on live during the diet qa

[alpine plover]

I feel as if tenonto isn’t as deadly as it used to be

[wise sparrow]

Early qa teno

[sinful cove]

i dont touch packs now cus of that and other experiences lol

[placid reef]

ah, last time i really played ti was in u2 and honestly i barely found dumb utah players, like all above average

[alpine plover]

Update 2 was carnorex hell

[placid reef]

except 2 that decided to jump one by one in a stego even after i told them not to

[wise sparrow]

U3 was deinorex and carnorex hell

[alpine plover]

Update 4 is pachyrex hell

[sinful cove]

era of the beyblade gator

[wise sparrow]

U4 is stego and pond hell

[placid reef]

the 1 roar made it easy to avoid them beforehand, except those 2 carnos that actually ambushed us

[alpine plover]

Yeah I don’t remember carnos really using the charge back in update 2

Was just easier to run in and bite while doing 4 billion damage

[placid reef]

ik they did they just 1 called before doing that, and one day it was me another utah and 2 juvies and we just wake up to 2 carnos behind us, we died

[wise sparrow]

I remember hitting a carno 6 times with my tail in early qa, eating all my stam, just to get killed by the 7 carnos I was fighting off and hearing a million carno roars as I respawned

[sinful cove]

carnos probably have the same playerbase as the gigas in legacy who killed juvies on the beach and broadcasted after

[alpine plover]

Victory roar

[wise sparrow]

I remember fighting a giga for 10 fucking minutes as a juvi dilo on nycta because he was so bad he kept missing all his bites. Missing bites. On fucking legacy as an apex

[alpine plover]

Most skilled nycta player

[sinful cove]

lmao i had an incident like that with juvi diablo vs a rex. its so easy to grow on legacy that most of the apexes are bottom of the barrel players

[placid reef]

isle nycta

honestly, im glad now growth is longer, now only if it was fun

[sinful cove]

yeah if only afk wasnt preferable to the diet system

i was never an afker but when the game wants to force me in to certain regions i lose interest in travel

[wise sparrow]

I tried to grow as a cera and got rushed down by 2 rexes. They ran at me and every time they were about to catch me they'd try to be cool and 3 call, then I'd turn behind them, repeat until the rexes were out of stam

I was a juvi

[alpine plover]

B-but it’s badass !

[sinful cove]

lol you sure they werent trolling

i had 2 allos do that to me as juvie utah, just harass me and move on

[wise sparrow]

They were trying to bite then bitched in chat that I was "stam and speed hacking"

[sinful cove]

i know some rex players are that dumb though they want to live out some jp fantasy

juvi cerato was surprisngly good considering how mediocre its adult form was

[wise sparrow]

Gotta love how juvi rex was the only slightly viable juvi

[sinful cove]

juvi rex was definitely the only good apex juvi, though some other juvies were viable

carno juvi was fine

[placid reef]

trike juvi

[wise sparrow]

Juvie dibble

Juvi para

[sinful cove]

trike was so bad its entire growth and the end product wasnt even worth the suffering

[sinful cove]

para as a whole

[placid reef]

pachy

[sinful cove]

pachy juvie was one of the less shitty ones but its adult form wasnt worth it

[wise sparrow]

Any herbi aside from dibble and galli

[sinful cove]

maia adult was good shit

[wise sparrow]

Oh right maia

[sinful cove]

maia, diablo and galli were the holy trinity of survival herbis

the fact that they said tenonto will be the fastest quad makes me worry for evrima maia

[wise sparrow]

Isn't maia a biped?

[alpine plover]

Maia was OP

[sinful cove]

idk it kinda swaps

[alpine plover]

the devil

[sinful cove]

maia was op because it could chase and attack

if they remedied that then it could still be a speedcow

[alpine plover]

wonder if evrima Maia will be similar

Don’t think it should be faster than utah though

[sinful cove]

i hope evrima maia, along with hadrosaurs in general, focuses more on cc than fighting

[wise sparrow]

I remember being so pumped for jwe2 and the fact that they said herbis would be stronger. Only for trike to be destroyed by cera

[alpine plover]

That game was a disappointment

[sinful cove]

lol doesnt brachi get bodies by 2 raptors in jwe2

[placid reef]

maia had bulk, speed and attack, thats busted, here it looses one, we dont know which

[alpine plover]

a game I wasted 60 dollars on and I regret my decision

[placid reef]

sauropods

[sinful cove]

maia having speed and bulk is fine but its attack potential should be heavily toned down

[wise sparrow]

And gallis to just stop at full stam to let the carni catch up

[placid reef]

happy i didnt get it, gonna spend it one some good shit, PK

[sinful cove]

pk looks hot

[wise sparrow]

I wanna find a mod that like makes the herbi stats make sense

[alpine plover]

Maia should just have attacks that stops the thing attacking it, not downright killing it

[placid reef]

pk has rhino and micro so i buy

[alpine plover]

Maia trample

[wise sparrow]

Pk is great cause it doesn't jerk off carnivores 24/7

[sinful cove]

maia attacks should just be shoulder checks, a back kick and its headbutt should make it lose its momentum so it cant chase you while spammign headbuff

[wise sparrow]

And the models are

[sinful cove]

hadros in egneral would probably do best using trample as their biggest weapon

otherwise its cc the attackers and get out

[placid reef]

i dont even know how the combat works there if there is any

all ik is that i like it

[alpine plover]

unless it’s para (remove para)

[sinful cove]

para sound attack wen

[alpine plover]

para sound attack that instantly makes every animal blow up

[sinful cove]

para giving people tinnitus

[alpine plover]

[sinful cove]

actually yes this is better

para horn causes so many vibrations that everything in its radius combusts in to flames

[alpine plover]

looks like that silly allosaurus won’t be hunting the para any longer

[sinful cove]

it's allover

[alpine plover]

has pathetic bleed while the mighty para has mighty sonic booms that can destroy the planet

[alpine plover]

I hate you

[sinful cove]

hey now dont be so fragillis

[alpine plover]

now you’re getting cancelled by magy

[placid reef]

you think thats a pun...

[spare badger]

[placid reef]

https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/855527844670865438/934112733295693946 cry

[alpine plover]

then slams it head in the ground cracks its dome to show how much of a crackhead he is

aight ill take myself out...

[hollow canyon]

Just going to point out that the whole discussion/argument about how the diets have caused Stego to be such a menace now are null and void really.

The only reason why Stego wasn't such a menace before was because... you simply didn't notice it being a menace like it is now. Stego was hot garbage until the August patch came out. I outright soloed them with a Carno before it. A good Utah could probably pull it off 1v1 too. It was only from 3.75 when it received a big buff and all the smaller animals got hit with nerfs that it became such a powerhouse... and that was the patch that introduced the logout bug which decimated Evrima's playerbase effectively making the branch outright unplayable, especially to animals with a 5h growthtime like Stego.

In other words - Stego's been this strong for a long time, they just didn't have much of an occasion to be oppressive until now.

Having said that all the herbivore diet plants around the oasis making it the best spot on the whole map is an issue that definitely doesn't help it but the point stands.

[spring dagger]

Spreading the plants out won't remedy the issue either, there's bound to be diets available to which they can just subsist of 1 diet and sit there

There's no negatives to diets which there absolutely should be

[wise sparrow]

Having 1 repetitive nutrient should start to cause debuffs. Say you've had coconut for like 30 minutes and nothing else, unless you get something else, you will start to suffer diet debuffs. As your diet is not varied at all and there for not a balanced diet which is unhealthy

[hollow canyon]

I completely and utterly disagree with that

if people want to keep their diet at good let them

[wise sparrow]

Then they just camp at one spot and never move once adult

Diets atm only make juvi life hell and dont effect adults in the slightest

[hollow canyon]

Because diets are trash in general

they are an even bigger nonsense for carnivores

I've only now cared to grow a Carno

and when I saw how nonsensical its diet is

[wise sparrow]

Ok for carnivores that idea won't work

[hollow canyon]

it just left me speechless

I genuinely don't believe that there's a single person who's capable of consistently maintaining a perfect diet on Carnotaurus right now

[wise sparrow]

"Hmm yes I have an entire stego corpse here... I dont want it cause I dont feel like it"

[hollow canyon]

or Utah for that matter

Utah might be outright worse out of the two

[wise sparrow]

Carni diets are the worst

[hollow canyon]

in general it's a joke how strongly the game caters to herbivores currently

and then there are still people who claim that carnivores are easy because they get all nutrients prior to adult

when herbivores are 10 times easier and require borderline 0 effort to grow

and yet we still get feedbacks like this one:

#balance-feedback message

[alpine plover]

Had a carno for about 5 hours, it’s pretty much impossible

could only really hunt down other carnos and the occasional utah for nutrition

pachy and teno is a no go because for some reason they didn’t exist at the time and if they did they were all at center pond

[calm ibex]

if you think removing stego alone will solve the issues you'll be mistaken,
instead of stego you just get deinos doing the same camping. or just carnos. hotspots really highlight inbalances and which animal on average performs the best

[alpine plover]

nobody plays dryo and deer gives you nothing so there’s that

[hollow canyon]

Even when they do exist any half-competent Tenonto should clap you with ease

then again half the people in this game are such brainlets that they might just forget they can turn so you might be able to kill some halfwit

just by charging him repeatedly while he moves in a straight line

[alpine plover]

that’s exactly what I did too

tenontos are..

Haven’t seen a competent one in awhile

[hollow canyon]

I honestly don't see very many of them altogether

it's mainly Pachys and Stegos

[alpine plover]

not sure why, tenonto is extremely powerful

then again a good majority can’t play it properly

[half girder]

yeah, just died cuz of stun lock and op stego

pachy this pachy that barely any teno convos going on, yeah its a hard creature but the thing kept me still so i can get one shot by a damn stego

i think there should def be a window to get out instead of being stuck in the hitbox still the stuns stop

[fresh laurel]

me when teno stuns locks

2 tenos are gods to mid tiers and below

[hollow canyon]

I've been saying this animal is overpowered currently for quite some time, it's just that not that many people play it so it's not that noticeable

Just play it yourself and you will see

[alpine plover]

If you make one mistake as carno while fighting a teno you’re probably going to be sent back to the selection screen

in a matter of seconds too

stuck in that stun lock and there’s no way out

as for utah pretty much the same thing

you get kicked or tailslammed? No escaping unless it just decides not to finish you off when you’re stunned

Teno is pretty much the ultimate punisher

[spare badger]

You cant kill a carno off 1 stun

2 yes
1 no

The carno gets stun immunity afterwards
So you can't instakill a carno

[fresh laurel]

help utah again...

i miss utah doing funny teno solo

[alpine plover]

2 utahs can actually bleed a teno out pretty easily, thats if the teno is even alone

very situational circumstance

idk u4 balance is.... can't really find a word to describe it

[fresh laurel]

yea...

what are the chances utah would find anything solo

diets rn arent what they are meant to be

avoid huge packs or have more solo players wandering the map

utah is doing a good job at small game ig

but ngl u4 stun locks feel unfair

alot...

[alpine plover]

u4 as an update feels kinda unfair

feels a lot more frustrating compared to the previous updates

u3 wasn't that bad, u2 was probably the best state of evrima, super enjoyable and not much to say about u1

[fresh laurel]

u2 was fair for all dinos tbh

carno could go 50 50 with teno where if teno makes a mistakes then gg

or carno makes one then gg

stego i forgot

[alpine plover]

i feel like every dinosaur was good in u2 except for stego

stego would get shredded by utahs in like

30 seconds with the pounce

not even

[sinful cove]

was u2 the time where dryos were soloing stegos

[alpine plover]

probably, haven't tried it out myself but i would believe it

[sinful cove]

i dont remember which patch it was where dryo had overtuned damage but i almost soloed a stego until its backup rolled in lol it was pathetic

stego was indeed fodder back then

[fresh laurel]

then just nerf dryo lol?

[sinful cove]

huh? it did get nerfed lol

[fresh laurel]

ik

but im saying why do u3.7 mega nerf

when we could go back to u2 balance

I think utah was perfect in u2 imo

[sinful cove]

the issue is that stego was so bad that dryos could solo it, but it wasnt dryo exclusive. utah soloed stego with just bites

stego is just a difficult animal to balance in this stage, it shouldnt be there at all but eh its too late now

[fresh laurel]

eh idk man... stegos prob were just bad

[sinful cove]

it was any stego that wasnt hugging a tree which i guess you could call bad but tree/rock hugging is a boring tactic that shouldnt be needed

its swings were incredibly easy to avoid

[fresh laurel]

eh maybe its because stego needed more moves

back in u2 people kept suggesting a faster swipe with weaker dmg as a alternate attack for stego

[sinful cove]

yeah it does need more moves, quite a few animals could use mor emoves

[fresh laurel]

ahem one trick pony carno and utah

[sinful cove]

stego could use a larger sweep with lower damage and more bleed focused, utah could use more variation on its pounce, carno could use a swing

[fresh laurel]

i just wish we could go back to u2 balancing

[sinful cove]

hypsi is apparently getting expanded on in the future at least

[fresh laurel]

#bringbacku2

[sinful cove]

for the most part u2 was better yeah, but we also didnt have pachy and diet oasis

oasis is a big issue

because even if animals are balanced, if they are encouraged to mega/mix pack at one spot they become problematic

[fresh laurel]

simple

bring u2 balancing and fix diets and bring pachy

[sinful cove]

herbi food needs more distribution. right now it is like chunks of cold butter on toast, it's in chunks. it should be like warm butter spread in its respective biomes

[fresh laurel]

i know that diets felt rushed

[sinful cove]

no cancerous hotspots. oasis has a problem not only with food, but it has shallow water and a wallow pit. it's a package deal

a few food hotspots might not be such a bad thing as long as they arent also by shallow water and wallowing pits and whatnot, and diet food is well distributed otherwise, but i dont think there should be hotspots with foods for all sorts of different animals like what oasis has

[fresh laurel]

ok what im saying is u2 was evrima peak at fun

[sinful cove]

yeah it was pretty good

[fresh laurel]

u2 I think utah bite could of been a plain 100n and dryo with a bite nerf and hypsi was fine imo and stego needed another swipe move

then add diets with gore

[dusky surge]

i'll be honest, bleed utah seems cool but needs a few QoL changes. Bleed feels way more impactful as a receiver than the actual bleeder. Kinda wish the animal's model would get bloodier and bloodier the more bleed the animal took (without wallowing/taking a swim), that way you would know how low their blood is

[fresh laurel]

that would be cool

or go the lazy route and let utah smell your blood levels

[dusky surge]

atm, if you get bled by a utah, you FEEL that shit much more than the utah

a single pounce hop on and off a stego does shocking amount of bleed, even if the stego is stationary

[fresh laurel]

we could upgrade utah bleed resist?

[dusky surge]

if a pack of utahs manage to run a stego out of stam then pounce spam, dear god it's fucked

[dusky surge]

what would that have to do with anything

why would utah even need bleed res

[fresh laurel]

i dont even know you confused me here

[fresh laurel]

isnt that the point

[dusky surge]

yea

[fresh laurel]

stego shouldnt be spaming swings

or else utah pounce will rip it apart

[fresh laurel]

qol?

any other qol ideas you got?

[dusky surge]

quality of life

[fresh laurel]

i know what it means lol

[dusky surge]

you very much phrased it like you didn't lmao

[fresh laurel]

sorry XD

#bringu2balance

[dusky surge]

i disagree

update 2 worked in a vacuum. You can't expect it to work nearly as well in U4 isle

U2's DPS raptor was cool when it was like, the smallest thing around, but it would be utterly insufferable to face as a Pachy

Balancing around U2's choices at this state in the game would be a horrid idea. We'd have to account for deino, ptera and pachy, and since HP didn't equal weight, things would just become extremely over-complicated

[fresh laurel]

eh

adjustments could be made

[dusky surge]

then it's not U2 balance

[fresh laurel]

well to be fair pachy would have to be adjusted to fit in

we cant take a u4 pachy into u2

[dusky surge]

frankly, I find update 4 balance good, my primary concern is with the hotspots more than the animals themselves. Stego seems oppressive because literally all activity is centralised to one core location and a defensive dino generally prospers if its defending a single locale

i have yet to see a pachy one-cycle me to death

and haven't had as much issues with stegos as many say

my core issue with these animals becomes more apparent when they try and guard key locations and get away with it because where the fuck else do people go

[hollow canyon]

Yes you can, I've done it before

[fresh laurel]

one cycle?

whats that lmao

[dusky surge]

attack once and use that attack stun to kill

[fresh laurel]

thats pachy to utah rn

[dusky surge]

apparently also to carno

[fresh laurel]

yup...

[dusky surge]

even tho it's never happened to me

and i've killed a lot of pachys

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto also claps an adult Utah 1v1 even when it's not fully grown, I had a... "pleasure" of fighting one when I was only some 60% grown, Utah died in a blink of an eye.

[fresh laurel]

I dont like growing for 1 hour 15 to get stun locked by something in my tier doesnt feel right

[fresh laurel]

my 40% utah got stun locked for tenos half my size biggest laugh i ever had

i barley made it out

[hollow canyon]

Yea Teno just murders stuff

it's all just about whether you can land the tailslam

[dusky surge]

had the joy of encountering a hacker teno yesterday

[hollow canyon]

ngl I'm bad at landing tailslams

[fresh laurel]

what was their hack?

[dusky surge]

albeit, the teno sucked ass, but it could perfectly track my juvi utah mate through a dense foliage no problem

[hollow canyon]

the game still makes up for me playing like a dumbo by virtue of handing me the third highest damage output in the game

[dusky surge]

mf kept running forward and biting, it was bizarre

[fresh laurel]

i found a carno doing that and it slaughterd my juvie utah pack XD

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto is probably not the optimal animal for the hackers tbh

[dusky surge]

i rarely throw out hackusations since i find sometimes there are coincidences but this mf was essentially an AI

he was the weirdest encounter I've ever faced

[fresh laurel]

i think stun needs to be reduced in this game heavily imo

[spare badger]

Tenos can't kill stegos
Sad

[dusky surge]

perfect tracking, but always ran in pure straight lines and bit the air

[fresh laurel]

thats when i can be fine with combat

[dusky surge]

why would they EVER need to do that

[spare badger]

Fun

[hollow canyon]

Yea Tenos can't clap Stegos

they can clap 50% stegos though

[dusky surge]

nah, saw some dude try to do that on stream then whine the game was unbalanced when he rightfully got clapped by an adult stego

[hollow canyon]

relatively well at that

[spare badger]

Or apparently it was a cannibal stego and killed a stego that someone in my herd was friends with
5 tenos died lmao

[hollow canyon]

meanwhile the same 50% Stego dumpsters Carno

[dusky surge]

he picked a fight he shouldn't have, got fucking destroyed and said "game bad" lmao

[hollow canyon]

There were some tests done on one discord I'm on - we were betting on who will win between 50% grown Stego vs adult Carno

[spare badger]

I haven't even gotten to fight carnos or Utah's they all run away bruh

[hollow canyon]

I was quite confident Stego would take it

but tbh I didn't expect that Carno wouldn't win even once

[spare badger]

How? Explain it to me please

[hollow canyon]

Basically - it's all about locational

If you open up with a tailslam to the head

they carno will almost certainly go down

[spare badger]

I see

[hollow canyon]

it just catches another two followups and the next attack kills it

[spare badger]

The stun lasts long enough for 3 headshots total?

[hollow canyon]

the way I did it was - kick to the head into three tailslams and Carno died before it could go away

no, you don't need 3 headshots if you already landed one

you only need like ~180 dmg or so

[fresh laurel]

lol my first time playing teno i legit stun locked a carno to death

[hollow canyon]

basically - first headshot lands on the head and stuns the Carno, then you land another two

[fresh laurel]

legit it couldnt run away

[hollow canyon]

the last tailslam just goes w/e and Carno keels over

[spare badger]

Alright so thats just headshots then that's not too bad
Stupid but not the worst

[hollow canyon]

if you don't open with a tailslam it might depend on how fast Carno can start moving, they did sometimes get away from me but sometimes they did die

[fresh laurel]

so uh stun nerfs? because I dont think stuns work in a game where it takes hours to make some good progress

[hollow canyon]

It just kind of depends, it's doable but

ugh, hard to pull off

I'm pretty trash at Tenonto so I only know that it can be done

It's not something that I ever did consistently

[spare badger]

You shouldn't be hit once and garunteed death essentially
The fact teno stuns isn't the problem, the stun mechanic works in theory, get a stun, do enough damage and they run away with their tail between their legs

[hollow canyon]

Oh no, it's not Tenonto's stun that's the problem

it's that absurd damage output

it just needs a nerf to the damage of the tailslam coupled with a decrease in stamina cost

[fresh laurel]

except its so easy to abuse

[hollow canyon]

There are some alternatives to that but

[fresh laurel]

i frames...

[dusky surge]

i kinda have to agree. I'd keep the stun and add maybe fractures if they just... Reduced the damage. 250 would be a fine amount, right now I think it does as much as a carno charge, which is a much harder move to set up and pull off.

[hollow canyon]

in general 1.6t iguanodontid has no right to deal 360N with any attack

[hollow canyon]

250 is what it was on the MT

admittedly Carno was stronger there

[spare badger]

That's too low

[dusky surge]

give it ACTUAL fractures

[hollow canyon]

I think it could be done

if you decreased the stamina cost too

[dusky surge]

it was meant to have fractures in the MT but the damage was set so unbelievably low

[hollow canyon]

that's 5 headshots to take out a Carno

[spare badger]

With fractures and decreased stam drain maybe

[hollow canyon]

imo there's no need for fractures

just buff the stamina

it was laughable that it could only use the tailslam 10 times while doing that damage

[dusky surge]

Claws and kicks just don't even come close either which is sad

[hollow canyon]

buffing stamina would make the fights last longer

which is always a good thing

[spare badger]

300N ish?

[hollow canyon]

claws are alright-ish, it's the kick that's awful

[fresh laurel]

300N?

wow

[hollow canyon]

imo it would be doable even with 250, I'd personally try to put it at... 290?

[spare badger]

Kick is semi decent for offensive tenos

[hollow canyon]

Yea, it's only good for running people down

which isn't what this animal should be doing

[dusky surge]

Claws can be combod and they are a decent spam move since low stam, mid damage, good turn and hitbox, and bleed

[hollow canyon]

Yea I mean... you can facetank a Carno with claws

[spare badger]

They removed bleed from the kick which made it worse

[hollow canyon]

ngl I never used the kick for the bleed

it was just a setup for the tailslams to me

[spare badger]

I did
Getting a kick slam combo was my bread and butter

[hollow canyon]

I mean yea - that's what kick is for

[dusky surge]

the kick, iirc, does like 250 damage. Which is good but like, tail is just... infinitely better.

Frankly, give kick the better knockdown, like a horse kicking its foe and tail slam the better stun

[hollow canyon]

Yea tail is just a better attack

it's much stronger, much easier to land, has a better range

[dusky surge]

Kick should be doing more knockdown imho, but it doesn't

[hollow canyon]

just nerf its damage and buff stamina and it should be alright

I'd even buff the damage on the kick

[dusky surge]

even tho its exactly the move you'd use if you were knocking something down

[hollow canyon]

true

[spare badger]

But would it be able to knock a carno down tho

[dusky surge]

no lmao

[spare badger]

So what matchup does it change

[hollow canyon]

tenonto? maybe?

I think kick already knocks it down though

but I'm not sure, I've never tried it, I only know that tailslam applies a knockdown in a mirror match up

[dusky surge]

kick actually knocks down less things than tailslam atm

[hollow canyon]

in general though, Tenonto can get nerfed and remain just fine atm

[hollow canyon]

I see, fair enough

[dusky surge]

i'd actually prefer to see a shift in power rather than an outright nerf

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto is probably the most... versatile(?) animal in the game

at least I think so

it's just really good in every aspect

[dusky surge]

teno has 4 attacks and one is just better than every other one

[hollow canyon]

yea true

that is an issue with its design

[spare badger]

Imo increase the kick hitbox, remove stun from slam and give it fracture
Give me a reason to use kick

[dusky surge]

claw has it's niche of being a cheap stam to damage cost

but its outshined by the quick DPS of tailslam

[hollow canyon]

I thought about it

[spare badger]

Claw is Utah repellent
Bite is for trolling
Kick is for not much rn
Slam is the mvp rn

[dusky surge]

kick allows for stuns while moving and takes less stam

still outshined by tailslam's high range and good damage and better stuns

[hollow canyon]

but there is a tiiiiny issue with increasing kick's range

[spare badger]

That being?

[hollow canyon]

you see - unless you change the animation people will be getting hit by attacks that seemingly don't connect

that would be kinda... lame?

[dusky surge]

very lame

[hollow canyon]

I mean if something doesn't connect then it shouldn't affect you I believe

[spare badger]

Idk rn it seems like it misses when it's supposed to hit
The hitbox is just kinda crap

[hollow canyon]

if we could have the animation modified then sure but that might be a bit hard

I mean that would be for the QA to check, I genuinely have no idea, never checked it(Wavepoole get on it!)

on a serious note if it doesn't connect when it should

then that is a problem

I might ask some people who have access to Taco Island to check it, I'm unlucky enough to be in a position where I can't access that server

for some reason I can't connect to NA servers at all, well most of them anyways

[spare badger]

I should have gotten the hit on at least 4 kicks today and none registered even tho the foot was right on their face

[hollow canyon]

might be lag, it has to be checked in a controlled environment I think

[spare badger]

I think the hitbox fizzles out too quickly

[slim dragon]

@sinful cove Instead of giving diminishing returns for Pachy's stuns only, I would make it so dinos get increasing stunning/stagger resistance as they get stunned, that lasts for a few seconds

[sinful cove]

thats what i meant sort of, giving diminishing returns to all cc, this isn't exclusively pachy

just adding a cc diminishing return by default can remove future balance issues when they add more CCers

[slim dragon]

Yeah but you wrote "Pachy"
Also I feel if should be tied to the attacked rather than the attacker
Diminishing returns = the more you stun people, the less you stun
Stagger resitance = the more you get stunned by anyone, the less you are stunned

[sinful cove]

pachy has the issue the most rn i think so i put it in his category, i added clarification in the suggestion tho now

and yeah thats how it would work. similar to how old jump used to drain more and more stam as you spammed it, cc would become ineffective as it is spammed until a timer that starts after the last application is reset

[quick anchor]

I agree bilbo

[dusky surge]

@sinful cove i'd just give deino a vertical lunge and give that a much higher weight cap. Since vertical lunge can't ambush people on the shores, it'd only really be useful for either catching flyers or grabbing someone swimming.

do agree with fracture bite tho

good for making people leave you alone

[fresh laurel]

isnt that planned?

lol

[dusky surge]

vertical lunge is planned

weight cap thing isn't

[fresh laurel]

fracture bite for deino will be fun ngl

maybe can stop water camping stegos...

[spare badger]

Imo having water half weight would be pretty shitty for things like sucho...

[sinful cove]

Thats why i specified terrestrials, sub aquatics could be spared or face reduced effects tbh

Though sucho doesn't look like a swimmer anyway, looks more like a wader, hard to tell what the devs gonna do with it lol

[dusky surge]

I think sucho will be def found in more shallow waters

the animals that would really need to worry about deino already could be dragged/killed without the bonus drag parameters (beipi, austro, bary, etc) or would be too heavy to even drag (spino)

[sinful cove]

It would mainly be a deterrence tool against land apexes who act too cocky

Like stegos do rn, and other large animals will do if they know they can get away with it

[dusky surge]

honestly, thinking about it... would anky even be ABLE to swim?

like, would it be a reasonable weakness for anky to just fucking sink

because look at everything about anky and tell me it could even brave any form of deep river

[sinful cove]

Anky would look stupid af swimming lol maybe hell just have a better oxygen pool so he can hippo run

Even new mammal anky would look stupid swimming

[dusky surge]

anky is near immortal to everything outside a rex, so having it being unable to swim doesn't even sound that farfetched as a downside

like, sure, it struggles to migrate as easily, but that just means it needs to seek shallow crossings or land/man-made bridges

carno seems pretty ridiculous swimming, but it has an abysmal swim speed and swim duration to make up for it. Anky doesn't even look like it could float if it tried

[sinful cove]

Or simply require water travel a lot less. Anky makes sense as an arid animal

Eating extra large quantities of abundant and low quality food

[dusky surge]

Yea

Honestly, it seems natural to have some hydrophobic animals for reasons outside of "deino"

[placid reef]

why would austro beipi and minmi even think to be in a large river/ deep water, like at least austro can sense deino from land but still

[placid reef]

make its diets most in one part, then when it has to migrate for reasons there will be some more shallow spots where sucho and spino exist too, or waits for droughts to take place with the cost that there is less water

[sinful cove]

Not like anky is built for travel anyway, it caters to a more stagnant playerbase who would be fine spending long times in one region constantly eating junk food in open plains

[fresh laurel]

what we talking about guys

[placid reef]

ye like it would migrate rare, and when it does it mostly waits for a drought

[spring dagger]

Fracture on a deino bite isn't a good idea, we would literally end up with a bootleg rex 2

All your other points are solid though. Deino's should not have buffs to their main attack given they are currently unkillable unless they're severely incompetent or stego

[placid reef]

deino cant follow his prey unlike rex

[dusky surge]

We wouldn't tho since those fractures are based on chance and reduce the prey to outright walking speed, and rex has the speed to carry up

In this scenario, deino can't follow up nearly as efficiently

[spring dagger]

I still dont think a playable which relies upon its 1 shot grab for anything below around 4 tonnes, to also get a fracture is a good idea.

[dusky surge]

4.6? It's just 4

[spring dagger]

I just woke up, mb.

If they were to give it fracture they'd have to change its grab so it isnt braindead like BOB's Mosa

Because what about semi aquatics that get grabbed? you're bone broke and then what, you're just fucked.

[placid reef]

fractures would only be usefull for prey larger thna 4t

also fracture could be just for the bite and not lunge?

[spring dagger]

Yeah but for anything that isn't larger than 4t theres no counterplay available to them now. Not like there was anyway but still, giving more avenues to deny counterplay is just a bad idea

[dusky surge]

grab wouldn't do fracture, only bite

also you can easily modify the fracture damage count

[spring dagger]

I think there just needs to be fundemental changes to the grab, you grab shit and it's weight is not reflected at all, it's like they just jump into your mouth

[dusky surge]

it's a good way to get people to get the fuck out of your space

[placid reef]

its a game... not a movie

[spring dagger]

It's still a braindead mechanic.

You press and hold RMB and they die. woo, so playable.

[dusky surge]

How would you even change the lunge

[spring dagger]

There has to be counterplay available, i propose that there be a tug of war mechanic, in which if you grab something they can try and fight you off but if they fall below a stamina threshold they get grabbed and it barely costs you any stamina to keep them held in your mouth.

[placid reef]

if smth less than 4t has counterplay for a an 8t croc we have other problems

[dusky surge]

lmao very true

imagine a utah tug of warring a deino lmao

[spring dagger]

O god no

LOL fuck, I mean a carno could maybe do it for a little bit but not for long, there should just a small margin to escape, i dont want to have to worry about instantly losing my progress because of BOB v2.

[placid reef]

austro... might be what helps with deino for 4t or less dinos, if you see an austro just chilling in water then you know its safe, but if you see one yeeting out of there you know whats to come

[dusky surge]

also apparently people think beipi will be deino fodder as if the thing wouldn't have good water vision

[placid reef]

also makes people want to keep austro alive and around

as the only one that can sense from land whats in water

[dusky surge]

basically put, i feel that beipi and austro populations will always be where deino populations aren't

no austros by the water and no beipis swimming? bad sign

[placid reef]

beipi might have the water sense with its nest as it looks to be floating so if you see a beipi nest (especially with eggs) you know its safe, and just seeing an austro around just vibing is also a good sign, neither of them is death sentence

[dusky surge]

i doubt it'll have water sense

[placid reef]

and that makes larger dinos want to keep them around

[dusky surge]

just good water vision

also yea, people should just leave austro alone lmao

[placid reef]

maybe but austro still would be the best sign for safe waters or not

as seeing it is the sign, beipi has to be spotted swimming

[dusky surge]

oh, austro has good water vision above water, beipi has good water vision under

imo, that'd be an interesting thing for both sides

austro is a warning, beipi is reactionary

[placid reef]

thats a nice way to be, if you see a beipi running out of water si a bad sign and not seeing an austro near water is a bda sign

then comes minmi, lets just allow minmi to get moss while in water to camouflage

[dusky surge]

minmi is the best

[spring dagger]

Minimi is cute

[spring dagger]

so innocent and brave

[spring dagger]

Mix packers will definitely ruin that philosophy.

Austro can just pair and bait, deino comes out and bang you're dead

Infact i see people doing that more than actually fighting eachother

[dusky surge]

why bring mixpackers into actually fun things lmao

who actually gives a shit

i refuse to account for losers

[spring dagger]

Because they're going to ruin a fun thing as per usual?

And make it super fucking exploitable and easy. Especially coupled with a 1 shot grab move.

[dusky surge]

i think that'll be less frequent than you assume

idk, i think assuming "x player" will ruin something is just boring

[spring dagger]

It is a boring philosophy yeah, but if you give people an inch, they will take a mile and this is true with pretty much everyhting

[dusky surge]

i rarely even see that much mixpacking in the game honestly

[spring dagger]

I see it pretty often

[alpine plover]

this is very true

[dusky surge]

also you should know by now that mixpackers NEVER go small harmless animals

[dusky surge]

i want my small dumb idiot in the game now

[alpine plover]

(not an idiot) but yes

Sadly, not being featured in any concept art about fixing water ways and water sources- adding new water flora- means I doubt Minmi will be added any time soon

[dusky surge]

yea

[alpine plover]

especially seeing that it's literally one of the ONLY animals able to do that

[dusky surge]

i kinda hope minmi cant even swim and just prances on the bottom of the water merrily

[slim dragon]

I'd prefer minmi to be able to swim AND prance merrily on the bottom of the water
Cause a semiaquatic that cannot swim is kinda fucked, since it needs to go back on the shore to breathe
Thus making it less viable in water than fully terrestrial animals

[placid reef]

looks like at best it kinda just hops like its on the moon on the bottom of the rivers

[placid reef]

give it above avg oxygen? it is a semi aquatic, it needs to manage its air well as its not an aligator

[slim dragon]

Still makes going into water a very bad idea for a minmi
A carnivore could just camp the water's edge and let you drown

There is a reason there are no animals in nature that must breathe air, can't swim yet live in water

[placid reef]

that would mean it came after minmi got in water, and with the idea that minmi can moon jump in water (and we have 3rd person cameras) it cant go to a bit highr ground depending on depth and just jump to get a glimpse of whats outside?

also... hippos

babies do swim but not adults

[dusky surge]

@barren oracle i'd prefer dryo is given anything but biteforce tbh, tired of every animal needing to fight and i find fighting with dryo the weakest part to it

[placid reef]

dryo is getting a dodge rework and god knows what else they think to give it, just make it not a runner but an evasive style

[slim dragon]

Hippos do swim, including adults
And they're good at it

Idk why so many people believe hippos can't swim

[barren oracle]

I want to not die to juvie carnos though T_T

[dusky surge]

turn radius

[placid reef]

dryo is an unfinished animal, what did you expect

[hollow canyon]

That sounds like a skill issue if you ask me

Dryo should most certainly not be dying to Carno... of any size

If it is then that's an issue with a Dryo player

2 fresh spawn Carnos should most certainly have a pretty good chance of a taking a Dryo down, I don't know what's surprising about that

[barren oracle]

That’s just me trying to fight them

There is 0 chance of dying

You can legit just leave whenever

But like. I don’t like being bullied away from food

[hollow canyon]

Well... then you know what I'm about to say

https://tenor.com/view/skillissue-skill-issue-gif-22125481

[alpine plover]

https://tenor.com/view/fnaf-skill-issue-idiotwatch-funny-gif-22799962

[spare badger]

Dryo needs to be a nocturnal animal

[barren oracle]

@spare badger as much as i like increasing the skill cap isnt it already hell to figure out how to play teno

Thats not even counting utah...

[spare badger]

Nah not really

Maybe I'm biased cause I've played teno since day 1 but it's not that hard to learn

[barren oracle]

I mean its got slam

[spare badger]

Right now it's 'stun with tail slam and kill with tail slam"

[barren oracle]

thats already confusing enough to figure out the existence of

Nvm utahs skill level

you gotta learn how in fucks name bleed works, find a pack to play with or bring friends, find a lone dinosaur away from oasis, and land pounces without dying

[spare badger]

I feel evrima is meant to have a much more in depth combat
And yea it can be hard to learn at first but there are so many places to ask/videos to watch on how to play the game

Brb

[hollow canyon]

It really isn't

Tenonto is difficult to play by design but it's current stats make it a good pick even for people bad at the game

even if you're bad at this animal the damage output carries you easily

[barren oracle]

All herbivores are a good pick

all carnivores are bad picks

[hollow canyon]

Yea but Tenonto specifically is in this golden spot where it has no real weaknesses and downsides

it has a good growth, easy diet and plays nicely, having a strong adult, it's good at moving around and has a great pvp potential

Pachy has the issue of having a trash juvenile and its diet being annoying prior to 50% due to coconuts

Stego just... takes a long time to grow

and its juv is also rather slow so travelling for diet might be annoying, Tenonto suffers none of these issues

Really I'd say that Tenonto is in a good spot as an animal aside from the fact that it needs a nerf to its damageoutput(and a potential buff to stamina usage)

[spare badger]

I just think slam is overused and too good and want kick to be useful

[hollow canyon]

Pachy and Stego both need more work than Tenonto does really

Yea slam is overused because it's overpowered

[placid reef]

ngl lowering its slam damage and mopving some of the effects from the slam to the kick and giving slam fracture would be great

[quasi grove]

Yeah Tenonto is hard carried by how beefed its tail slam damage and attack speed is
Kick is effectively useless in the face of tail slam and claw attack is pretty slow if you arent using the forward variant
(Bite is also literally useless as it does garbage damage)

But when nerfing or changing it you have to keep the stamina cost in mind, especially on something that cannot run away from most of its significant threats on land

[spare badger]

My thinking is that a body fracture makes long fights harder, which is what tenonis designed for

[placid reef]

i mean every dino will have bite and for a lot it will be useless

[hollow canyon]

Yea the lack of a stamina compensation was the reason why Tenonto turned out so garbage during the MT. You just can't nerf an animal like that without giving it some compensation.

And while Tenonto cannot outrun most things on land its really good at avoiding anything and everything when it uses the water. E.g. if you have a Carno on you you can just swim across a river and then wish that Carno gl in chasing you. If it does you can just wait for it to come to the other shore and slam it as it enters your range.

[placid reef]

watch this utah get no compensation and get its weight reduced bc of the new utah

[quasi grove]

I still dislike that water reliance due to Tenonto being completely helpless if caught swimming by any legitimate semi-aquatic

[hollow canyon]

which we have a whole of... 1 in the game right now

and that's the number we will likely be stuck in for years to come

besides Idk if semiaquatic animals are going to be able to actually outswim a Tenonto

I honestly doubt they will be swimming faster than this

[quasi grove]

Considering Deino already does
Theres a good chance

[spare badger]

Slam should be used as a hard punish for getting a stun, as a fracture reduces stam capacity. Reducing the stam cost on the attacks let's teno be a good brawler, allowing it to have long fights

[quasi grove]

Since smaller proper semi-aquatics getting fucking swam down by Deino sounds dumb

[placid reef]

wow, shocker, the animal designed to only live in water swims fast

[hollow canyon]

Deino is a croc

I doubt the other semiaquatics are going to be as fast as Deino in the water

[placid reef]

deino better be the fastest swimmer

[spare badger]

Yea but what else would kill a teno besides a sucho, bary, or spino? And teno should be able to our speed them in water

[quasi grove]

We also have otter stork raptor
Baryonyx who will probably just be fast
And Sucho and Spino being large enough to just sprint across most bodies after you

[hollow canyon]

I mean maybe some tiny thing like Beipi will be able to swim faster than Deino but... I doubt it?

[placid reef]

i'd say bary is equal speed

[spare badger]

Bary true but bary is smaller so it makes some sense

[hollow canyon]

otter stork raptor is way too tiny to duke it out with a Tenonto

unless it deals some absurdly high damage it's just not going to do anything to Teno

[quasi grove]

If the Tenonto is swimming it easily can
Cause Teno can only bite

[spare badger]

Bary is the only real contender for it

[placid reef]

imo its the same speed/ or just is able to see in water much better than deino to doge it easier

[quasi grove]

Kill it before it gets back to land is the real question

[hollow canyon]

and if it does deal enough damage to threaten a Tenonto then that's an issue with balance

[placid reef]

and austro wont either?

[quasi grove]

Austro will probably have an actually usable bite
But it's also full semi-aquatic so who knows what else it'll get

[hollow canyon]

how much damage do you think Austro bite will do?

[quasi grove]

How much does Utah do rn?

[placid reef]

austro is still gonna be in the range of this utahs bite

[hollow canyon]

Because I think you're completely overestimating it

[placid reef]

55

[hollow canyon]

Utah does 55N

[spare badger]

Teno will be able to outspeed any real semi-aquatic threat in water and on land

[quasi grove]

If Utah stays at 55
Probably somewhere around 30

[hollow canyon]

It needs to bite a Tenonto something like 32 times, it's just not a viable strategy

Yea that would be some 54 bites

[quasi grove]

But also Utah bite being that low is kind of a joke

[hollow canyon]

that's just not a threat to Tenonto as I said

[placid reef]

honestly bary would equal it but not like it wants to fight it, but in terms of speed

i'd put cera as the one that will fight teno more

[quasi grove]

It depends on if Austro can use any serious abilities whilst swimming

[hollow canyon]

Both Bary and Cerato would get murdered by the current Tenonto

one of the reasons why this animal needs a nerf badly

[quasi grove]

On land
In the water probably not

[spare badger]

Bary and cera are both teno rivals in size

[placid reef]

well ofc, but im taking with the idea that it gets nerfed back to reality

[placid reef]

and both semi aquatics

[spare badger]

All 3

Which is cool

[hollow canyon]

I mean it would need some pretty tough nerfs for Cerato to be able to have a go at it

[placid reef]

well cera more like teno than bary, austro etc

[hollow canyon]

same goes for Bary - note that these animals are in the range where they just drop on the ground if they get hit

[quasi grove]

Cera isnt semi-aquatic
It's just a good swimmer like Teno based on its concept art

Still need to see if they give Cera roids or not

[hollow canyon]

that's much worse of a situation than Carno is in

[placid reef]

just nerfing the damage a bit giving it fractures and making kicks knockdown instead

[placid reef]

well ye thast why i added that its more like teno than bary, austro etc

[spare badger]

Cerato and bary are far more agile than a carno so avoiding a stun by the kick should be easier for them
(If we are basing this off of my Tenonto changes)

[placid reef]

imo for both it should still be a bit more in tenos favour as its also larger than both

[quasi grove]

And can easily be slower than both

[spare badger]

But they will be in conflict a fair amount

[hollow canyon]

I completely agree, it should be a Tenonto favoured match up

but not heavily so

[placid reef]

yup

[spare badger]

I can easily imagine sub teno being preyed on by bary and cera heavily

[hollow canyon]

meanwhile I think that Carno vs Tenonto out in the open should absolutely be Carno favoured, if you got caught by a Carno in the middle of nowhere far from your natural habitat then you're the one at fault

[spare badger]

If they nerf slam damage and the kick is the only knockdown tool bary and cera will have a much better chance

[placid reef]

well slam should still knock stuff like utah in the ground, but kicks stun/stagger, but knockdowns just need to be ragdols rather than just fancy stuns

[hollow canyon]

true

[spare badger]

Because kick's stun is most useful against unagile opponents like carno

Cera and bary will definitely be much more agile, and so I feel the matchups would be more fair then

[spare badger]

Slam could still knock over Utah but eh I'm neither here nor there on that

[quasi grove]

I still feel like tail slam should stun
Since that was the key part of Tenos tail use in its concept art

[spare badger]

Tenos tail will still be a key part of its combat
But used for fractures instead

And it gives kick a purpose

[placid reef]

i mean if you slam a tree on a human you;d expect it to pin them in the ground, but thats why i added at the end the ragdol part, bc knockdowns shouldnt just be fancy stuns like rn

[quasi grove]

Can trade damage for stun or stun for damage
I dont think tail slam should be doing higher damage over the harder to land kick

But yeah CC overall needs more attention and diversity than just funny stuns

[spare badger]

Slam should do more damage but kick should be more rewarding, hence giving kick the exclusive use of stun in tenos kit

[hollow canyon]

I think it could be just that tailslam perhaps applies a shoter stagger than the kick?

In general wouldn't it be possible to just tinker with the length of the CC?

[spare badger]

It gives all tenos moves use

Bite: juvie killing
Claw: good defense against smalls, uses little stam
Kick: Stuns and bleeds, usable when running
Slam: applies fracture and good damage, a hard counter after landing a kick

[quasi grove]

Kicks pathetic range and and being too slow to combo off of imo means it should be the strongest attack
In a finisher kinda sense

[spare badger]

Kick looks like a stun move
Slam looks like a fracture move

[quasi grove]

I see it the other way around

[placid reef]

aight so here's my take on the stun mechanics:

Stuns are garbage (unless we get some electric dino or strain)
knockdowns shouldnt just be fancy stuns but dynamic, ragdoll, yeet you around etc, not just full stop you and plop to the floor
staggers shouldnt be fancy stuns like magic, a stagger should be just short enough that the person that staggered cant get a hit in, so staggers would be to stop an attack without recieving damage

TL;DR- there should never be easily accessible mechanic that freezes people in combat for ez/free hits (stasis d2 flashbacks)
thoughts?

[spare badger]

I'd say staggers should allow for at least 1 more hit in but idk

[placid reef]

more just that it allows you to prepare another hit or breathing room, so the stagger is done but if you they choose to stay there instead of running theres a 2nd round

[quasi grove]

Attack combos are useful for slower creatures to pin down faster ones so they get punished for being hit without just having it be an insta kill

Cause if Tenonto didnt have stun
Utah would run through it like a track meet

[spare badger]

Yea
But it should be a combo
Not spamming one move
Hence why I think kick should stun and slam should fracture

[quasi grove]

Slam stun
Kick finisher
Either way it works better than only tail slam and no kicking unless they present themselves to your hind feet

[placid reef]

also to add to my comment, stagger or knockdowns cant be stacked, if someone has either of those 2 applied, he cant recieve more of them for that duration ad 2 sec after they are finished

stuns should just get removed too

[spare badger]

So final thoughts on my balance suggestion?

[placid reef]

so stun locking cant be achieved by just pressin 1 button but by comboing but still a breathing room where you can escape it

[quasi grove]

Well there is a stun cooldown after you get stunned once already in the game

[placid reef]

so stagger -> knock -> bite etc

stunning itself where you just freeze there is prob the most stupid shit i have seen in this game after early legacy days

[violet garnet]

@woven ginkgo it is 8 tons that would break every bone in its body i do agree with less fall damage but a 10 foot fall for a deino is right

[fresh laurel]

me when juvie stego one shots my utah thats bigger than it

[hollow canyon]

Well... it can't oneshot an adult Utah, that's for sure

Utah's oneshottable by a fresh juv Stego up until about ~60% of growth

a fresh sub(50%) stego almost oneshots a fully grown Utah

it also claps a fully grown Carno so yea, Stego's deceptively small but strong

[spare badger]

Lmao a sub carno did the most obvious attack and charged me (wouldn't have done anything I was bigger) and all I did was press A and slam him 4 times
How long do ya think it'll take for em to complain teno is more broken than stego

He was in a pack of 4 and only he attempted to engage

[hollow canyon]

Idk if Teno is more broken than Stego or vice versa but Teno does clap a 50% Stego from what I know

which is at least something since Carno dies to it

[spare badger]

That was a joke

And that was not even a balance issue to be fair it was just a really obvious approach

And a sub carno that got knocked over by a slam

[hollow canyon]

I know you were joking but I'm serious, idk which one is more "broken"... I mean I guess Stego because it's more gamebreaking but Tenonto is imo better in terms of being all around good

idk why a sub Carno was even charging you

[spare badger]

Some Utah's attempted to fight me but I slammed 1 and got 3 claws on the other

[hollow canyon]

does he realise what happens if he hits that charge?

newsflash: he dies

[spare badger]

Ic
Stego def more broken cause nothing can touch it, Teno is just slightly too good

[spare badger]

90% sure there was an adult there too
And 3 other subs

[hollow canyon]

it's like... Stego is definitely better when fully grown

but I'd rather play Tenonto just because it's both cooler, nicer to play and has a much better growth

[spare badger]

That doesn't mean it's broken it means it's a good, fun playable
Slightly overtuned? Yes

[hollow canyon]

well really "broken" implies that it's in one or another form just bad for the game, it's commonly used as a synonym of "overpowered" but the original meaning of that word was quite different

I'd say that Tenonto is more so just overpowered than broken

it's only the tailslam that's broken because it makes all the other attacks, especially the kick, obsolete

But yea Tenonto itself doesn't technically oppress any playable unlike Stego

[barren oracle]

[fresh laurel]

idk about you that part needs some changing...

[hollow canyon]

which one? 50% Stego clapping a Carno?

[fresh laurel]

nah

juvie stego attack dmg

sub is fine ig

[hollow canyon]

I mean I don't disagree but idk

[fresh laurel]

leaves a bad taste in my mouth when juvie stego does so much dmg despite being smaller

I wouldnt mind if it got a dmg nerf at younger stages and had a good weight gain throughout its younger life

[spare badger]

Experienced a head fracture for the first time
While attacking 2 carnos a pachy accidentally hit me

@near socket prob a headshot, in order for slam to not 1 hit it would need to be lower than it was in MT when teno was trash

[hollow canyon]

not true

it could be way higher than that and a headshot would still not be killing a Utah

[spare badger]

Utah weighs under 500kg
And MT teno slam did 250N iirc
And headshots deal double damage
(Correct me if I'm wrong)

[hollow canyon]

You're wrong about the last part

they only do double damage to Stego

all the others have a x1.5 headshot multiplier

Tenonto needs to deall less than 300 damage to avoid having it oneshot a Utah

...or just buff Utah's health slightly

then the slam can deal ~305 dmg(for example) and we have a situation in which Utah doesn't get oneshot but Carno still dies to as many headshots as it does now

in general Tenonto's tailslam can easily be nerfed without making the animal garbage

[spare badger]

I see

Although I couldve sworn it was 3x on stego but guess I'm wrong

[dusky surge]

headshots only do double damage in the case of stego

[fresh laurel]

best option...

[fresh laurel]

Ok so what if

utah alt bite didnt make it lose acceleration

[spare badger]

That would look so stupid

[dusky surge]

why would that be a thing

[half girder]

alt does more dmg, shouldnt be like a normal bite

about stego, i think it should take hella headshot dmg

[spare badger]

It does

[dusky surge]

that's already the case

[half girder]

last time i played croc it tanked 2 headshots and 5 body shots

[dusky surge]

stego is tanky

[fresh laurel]

good thing it was a what if

[fresh laurel]

i thought it was glass canon

[spare badger]

Since when

Utah is a glass cannon

Stego is a beefy boi

[dusky surge]

among apexes, yes

[fresh laurel]

oh ok

[dusky surge]

it's very much just tanky in this environment

[fresh laurel]

I wouldnt go that far...

[dusky surge]

it literally is

[fresh laurel]

bleed ig

[dusky surge]

it has low defensive options, high offense options and low health

[spare badger]

Exactly

Utah is a glass cannon
Teno is a brawler
Stego is a tank

[fresh laurel]

well im in for a world of explaining

[fresh laurel]

would carno be hit and run?

[dusky surge]

i feel like at this point we're just making niches lmao

[fresh laurel]

and only offensive thing for utah i can think of is utah's bleed...

[fresh laurel]

variety

always good

[dusky surge]

not really

you're just making up niches as you go lmao

[fresh laurel]

me?

hol up...

[dusky surge]

the fuck is a hit and run in the context of the isle

[fresh laurel]

simple

you hit the target...

and run away

and repeat

[dusky surge]

so specifically carno

[fresh laurel]

yes

[dusky surge]

it's not really a niche if only one animal has it lmao

[fresh laurel]

I just asked if carno is hit and run?

[fresh laurel]

utah kinda works with it

legit pounce and run away

but bite every so often

[fresh laurel]

what are all the niches then

[spare badger]

Carno is small game/ambush

Ambush w/ charge
Run down smalls
Or charge into a herd and pick up a baby

[half girder]

i hate when a baby cucks my charge

[fresh laurel]

collision be like

[half girder]

no i pick it up and my charge stops

wish where if u held it youd keep going

[fresh laurel]

eh

that would be nice

but not sure how the game would stop you from doing ram while holding something

[fresh laurel]

question?

how much dmg does utah pounce do until half stamina

[placid reef]

Dilo

[spring dagger]

Troodon as well.

[placid reef]

well with troo he just comes in hordes, does venom and just sits and watches you suffer, troo is not a hit and run like dilo, he's a masochist

[spring dagger]

Masochist that is indeed a bootleg utah

[near socket]

looked like body to me, but it could be?

[spare badger]

teno cant 1 hit on a body shot, period

[spring dagger]

Utahs head hitbox is fucked

It most likely was a headshot

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto "only" takes out 80% of Utah's health on a bodyshot but it doesn't kill you.

But yes it does need a nerf.

[spring dagger]

I think the hitbox needs rectifying

Then it should be fine, a teno should be extremely dangerous for a utah

[hollow canyon]

It shouldn't oneshot it

it was extremely dangerous to it even back in 3.5

[wintry mountain]

Teno is indeed in a massively overloaded spot, pachy on the otherhand has quite a few game breaking bugs connected to it that have since been reported, will need to see how it preforms without it stunlocking everything when it shouldn't be

Tenonto in general as an animal needs its tool kit revamped, as it's clear that what was meant to be its main form of cc has become an all in one attack tool, defeating and invalidating the purpose of attacks like the kick or claws

[alpine plover]

Just increase the Kick dmg, give it fractures, and remove the dmg on the tailslam, ez.
And if they want a tailslam that does alot of dmg, they can add the running tail slam where the teno kinda flips over and WHAM

[fresh laurel]

It doesnt