#balance-feedback-discussion

1 messages · Page 283 of 1

fiery mantle
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Yeah

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I’m just excited for the revised roster to come to EVRIMA

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Excited to see Alberto, Acro and Cera someday

dawn falcon
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I’m just waiting to see a good explanation on why weight = HP should be scrapped

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It just seems to be unnecessary to scrap it when you can have an easier time balancing an animal with it ingame

lament cloak
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is this really neccesary? cmon. we know you pray to a carno statue every day but this is excessive

unknown.png
primal dove
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There are so many ppl hating on the utah nerfs and most of them tried to stay thorough and came with good and reasonable arguments but if u want to change a little thing for other playables u get that. Great community TI_utah.

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but i also think nerfing its turn radius is kinda overkill, nerf the alt bite and everything is fine

sinful cove
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I think the low bleed damage and shitty agility nerf are accidents at least

dawn falcon
winged sierra
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turn radius? that doesn't exist anymore

dawn falcon
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It’s pesky lmao

winged sierra
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turn speed you mean

winged sierra
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who else

primal dove
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did u never click on the profile or what lol

dawn falcon
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Huh

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Pesky and These people and oddly enough the person with the feedback agreed to flip himself off

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primal dove
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ahh ok

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well I can understand them it´s their main probably but such a reaction was unnecessary

dawn falcon
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Yeah

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Especially since Pesky is the funny blue Carno main YouTuber

winged sierra
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it's just comical

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the content creator whose whole personality is being a blue carno reacted with a middle finger to anti-carno* feedback

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*not anti carno but you get what i mean

tacit oriole
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Just to follow up the discussion around growth times, I personally would like to see a return to the old weight curves (so weight matches model at 25/50/75) but actual biteforce follows the curve we have now

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So basically at 75% your are getting near your final weight but you are lanky and significantly weaker than fully grown, sort of a statistic representation of being inexperienced

sonic flame
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That sentence is a direct contradiction

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if you are lanky and signifigantly weaker, due to a lack of horns, muscle mass, or whatever else that is making you weaker, then you would be less massive

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so it would make sense that until you grow into your adult bulky form, only then does your weight and attack power finalize

tacit oriole
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Yes, but that weight difference would not be like deino atm - 4 tons vs 8 tons

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We are talking like your last 500kg of weight

sonic flame
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There is a solid reason why its so much more pronounced with Deino and Stego than with the other animals

tacit oriole
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Think of a 6ft human. 80 kg is about average build, bulk up to 100 kg and that is a huge change in strength and combat capabilities

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As I said though, it's not just about weight. Combat stats also represent things that can't be directly modelled. An old combat veteran of an animal would be a bigger threat than a young inexperienced one

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Even though they might weigh the same

sonic flame
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True, but most of the experience is going to be due to the actual player

tacit oriole
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Yeah, but that is totally separate. The aim is to make growing longer and harder by delaying your combat power as late as reasonable

sonic flame
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I.e. a Stego player that knows how their tail jab attack works vs doesn't know

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Hmm, it wouldn't on its own do a thing to growth times, those are seperate

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and simply by increasing growth times, you can increase the amount of time you spend as a weaker animal

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are there any animals you feel are too strong for their size?

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specifically as they grow

tacit oriole
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To draw a parallel with humans, 75% should be like a 16 year old - basically full size but lacking in strength and prowess

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Growth between 16 and 21 isn't really significant, size wise, but for MMC the total strength and effectiveness would be huge

sonic flame
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Just to be clear, mass is set up to reflect the overall size of the animal, so is the problem that they increase in size or mass too quickly?

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because for the larger animals, the small tick to tick changes really start to pile up

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i.e. our Deino, if it was only slightly larger, would be nearly double the mass

tacit oriole
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In the game atm they have 16 year olds weighing 30kg nd 21 year old weigh 90kg

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It's silly

tacit oriole
sonic flame
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Are you applying that to all the animals, or just to the larger ones

tacit oriole
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I believe it's the same atm for all

sonic flame
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It does vary somewhat, but there's a larger issue causing it

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cause the mass does properly reflect the animals size

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and the size is linear

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The only reason mass is exponential atm is because animals do not stay in a dedicated stage for X amount of time

tacit oriole
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I like the current power curve in some ways, but it's silly to be totally useless until like 95% grown

sonic flame
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i.e. Stego doesn't remain in a subadult stage, so you pass through what should be most of its gameplay near the end

tacit oriole
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You get the full adult model at about 1/3rd final weight

sonic flame
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instead you grow at the same rate from the second you spawn, instead of rapidly to a viable size, and then very slowly to adult

sonic flame
tacit oriole
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The other reason I want weight to grow more realistically - and outpace damage - is to make sub adults better targets for hubting

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Since weight = food

sonic flame
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the weight does grow realistically tho, since square cube law

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it's less noticeable on smaller animals

tacit oriole
sonic flame
tacit oriole
sonic flame
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i.e. Stego goes from its Juvi at 0% growth, and every tick morphs closer to the adult, which is only finished at 100% growth

tacit oriole
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That's cattle weight

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Notice it isn't exponential

sonic flame
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The cattle also don't scale linearly

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the only reason our dinosaur growth is exponential is because scale is linear

tacit oriole
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Yes but TI is absolutely nothing like that atm

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Most animals are an S curve

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With most of the weight being added through the juvy stage

sonic flame
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that's not how that functions at all, most of the animal's mass is during the last 70% or so

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especially on the larger animals

tacit oriole
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Notice with cattle pretty much the same bulk weight is added in the first 100 days and the second 100 days

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The numbers are right there lol

sonic flame
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I get that, I'm just saying, the cattle do not grow like the dinosaurs in the isle

tacit oriole
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Yes, and that is a problem

sonic flame
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Cattle grow rapidly in their first few days of life, and then slow down

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Dinosaurs in the isle grow the exact same length increase every tick

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which makes the mass, which is correct to the models length, exponential because of the square cube law

tacit oriole
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There are 4 defined models which are tweened

sonic flame
sonic flame
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Pachy will have 3 as well, Juvi Sub and Adult

tacit oriole
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Growth is controlled through float curves which can be any shape you want

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So it does not have to be linear at all

sonic flame
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It doesn't have to be, but it is atm, that's what I was attempting to communicate

tacit oriole
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And besides, the 75% model is not 25% smaller than the 100%

sonic flame
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the mass cannot be desynced from the models scale without leading to some really stupid stuff happening

sonic flame
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Scale starts at above 0, and works its way to 1

tacit oriole
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Regardless, this is a distraction. I am arguing how it should be, not how it is now. I know exactly how it works now.

sonic flame
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Evidently not entirely, given that there are several inconsistencies with your explanation and the actual system, but I do get the general point and I agree

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making animals grow more like actual animals instead of linear functions would be nice

tacit oriole
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And how it should be is not tripling in weight in the last 25% of your adolescence

sonic flame
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eh most dinosaurs did reach adulthood rather early in their lives to be fair, and massive mass increases are to be expected as you get bigger

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i.e. if the elders were about 10% larger, then elder stego, a 6 ton animal, would be 8 tons, while elder deino, an 8 ton animal, would be 14 tons

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an elder Utah would work out to around 550kg, while an elder Brachi would likely get up to 60 tons

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all from an increase in linear size of about 10%

tacit oriole
sonic flame
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if they did, they would

tacit oriole
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It is more linear than you might think

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I could pull up all kinds of weight charts if you want, I already have one example

sonic flame
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there are very few animals that increase in length the exact same every period until they are fully grown, if there are any like that I have never heard of it

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keyword, length

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and/or height

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talking about the animal's surface area

tacit oriole
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Who cares about length? The issue here is the weight curve

sonic flame
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if their surface area doubles, volume triples, leading to exponential increase in mass as length/height increases

tacit oriole
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Models matching weight is an entirely separate issue

sonic flame
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that's the thing, their length increases linearly, so their mass increases exponentially

tacit oriole
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It doesn't, though

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Sub adult to adult is a marginal change in length

sonic flame
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if you wanted the mass to increase linearly, length would increase logarithmically

tacit oriole
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And that is exactly what happens

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Look at the models

sonic flame
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Yes I know, 70% deino is not 70% scale or 70% mass tho which is something to keep in mind

tacit oriole
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Hatching to juvy is a huge change, juvy to sub is a slightly smaller change, sub to adult is a marginal change

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Hatching to juvy is like 4x the sizr

sonic flame
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fresh spawn Deino is around 3.5m, while the adult is 11.5

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the curve between those lengths is linear

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so the mass is exponential

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because square cube law

tacit oriole
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Again though, the models matching Wight is a separate issue and easily solved

sonic flame
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The models should match the weight should they not?

tacit oriole
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It is still a separate issue

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  1. Set weight curves 2. Match model to weivht
sonic flame
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The problem causing exponential mass curve is due to being matched to a linear model curve

tacit oriole
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And both are completely arbitrary

sonic flame
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you would need to change the model's curve to fix mass

tacit oriole
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You seem to have this belief that the model changes are linear and have to be

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This is not the case

sonic flame
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It wouldn't be the case usually

tacit oriole
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It is a float curve (a spline) just like weight and bite force

sonic flame
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the reason I am pretty firm that it will be for now is because changing the graphs is not the planned solution to this issue, though it is one option

tacit oriole
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They changed it twice this month

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No reason it can't or won't be changed again

sonic flame
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the other solution is to set up distinct growth stages with distinct timers, so while the graph is linear in the engine, the speed at which something progresses along that graph is determined by another value

tacit oriole
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To be absolutely clear:
Weight, growth, and damage are all float curves of value against time and can be absolutely any shape desired

sonic flame
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changing the graphs simulates the same thing, but requires that every single graph in the game is curved the same way, leaving a far larger margin for error than if a master "growth" curve was used

tacit oriole
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See above statement

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I work in UE. I know how these things are done

sonic flame
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True, however the shape of the graph is ultimately pointless if the x axis is not moved forward at a constant speed

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right now the graph is read at a constant speed, this won't be the case forever

tacit oriole
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... Of course time is constant, that is not important here.

sonic flame
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Time doesn't have to be constant is what I was getting at

tacit oriole
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Yes it does in these curves

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It's against server time

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And there is absolutely no motivation to make it otherwise

sonic flame
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If the first 50% of the x axis is "Juvi" and set to take 200 minutes, and the second half is set to "adult" and takes 100 minutes, then the animal would grow slower at first and then faster in the second part, or something similar to that

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Legacy had something similar

tacit oriole
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Ah, I see where you are misunderstanding

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X in this case is not percentage growth

sonic flame
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and it was one of the few cases where Legacy had something better than Evrima, they had distinct stat blocks for their animals and each growth stage

tacit oriole
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X in the graph is seconds passed

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The fact that percentage growth matches seconds passed linearly is for convenience

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That is purely a gui element, anywY

sonic flame
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the growth percentage matching seconds passed tho is arbitrary and that's what needs to change to get what you wanted

tacit oriole
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In the engine your final adult stage is actually 66.6% grown anyway

sonic flame
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if you spent longer at a younger percentage, then you wouldn't have this giant jump to adult size

tacit oriole
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You start at 33.3% and finish at 66.6% at the moment

sonic flame
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or rather, you would, but it could be drawn out or growth spurts could be more easily simulated

tacit oriole
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It is easy right now. Trust me.

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It can be absolutely any shape or speed desired with minimal work to change it

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It's as easy as changing the points on a spline

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There is no technical reason it has to be what it is now or what it was

sonic flame
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I know how the editing of a graph works

tacit oriole
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Weight a d damage are already unlinked

sonic flame
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All I'm saying is editing the curves in the way you are suggesting is one solution yes, but not the only one

tacit oriole
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It is literally how the engine works

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There is no other solution beyond moving to a new engine... lol

sonic flame
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I'm no programmer so I'm not qualified to argue on this, I'm just parroting what was said when I questioned this same topic

tacit oriole
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I am and I am, but anyway this has been a giant distraction. Just trust that there is no technical barrier to having weight, power, model size, and any other Dino stat change at any speed you want

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The argument is what those curves should be

sonic flame
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I know there isn't a technical "UE4 will crash if you do this" barrier

tacit oriole
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Please just trust me.

sonic flame
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I do, I know that what you are proposing could work

tacit oriole
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And limit the discussions to what they should be, not what you think they can be

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From a game play and realism point of view

sonic flame
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I mean for scale it's pretty obvious that's fucked and the animals should grow rapidly, and then slowly to adulthood

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mass reflects scale so that's irrelevant

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and damage in general is set up to somewhat reflect scale, so it's also linear atm

tacit oriole
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Weight = damage was the case before this months patch, but they aren't linked now

sonic flame
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Ideally everything would be nice and simple, if the animal looks small enough to fuck up, you can fuck it up, if it looks big enough to be a problem, it should probably be a problem

tacit oriole
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For example a 50% weight stego does about 35% damage

sonic flame
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Weight and Damage have always been unlinked, Damage is controlled by a seperate value

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still is

tacit oriole
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Damage curves were definitely pushed right this patch, as well as making the starting values lower (which was a good change imo)

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But I still think being basically useless at 95% then all of a sudden being a killing machine 5 minutes later is silly

sonic flame
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an important thing to note is that the attacks do not scale independently of each other as well, so like Teno's tail slam doesn't do proportionally more damage than its bite as it gets a larger and stronger tail, the ratios of damage are all consistent

tacit oriole
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Bite and other ability damage is unlinked atm too, I tested it

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50% bite does not equal 50% tail damage

sonic flame
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They are all controlled by the same value, so if you have a situation where Carno charge is dealing more porportional damage than it should be, it's a bug

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Afaik from my recent checking of location hitboxes the other day, the values are all correct

tacit oriole
sonic flame
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so I'd have to say your testing was either a one off bug, or you were accidentally striking different locational areas

sonic flame
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and if you've got tail damage desyncing from bite damage, that's a bug

tacit oriole
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So your answer is you were told that they should be

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That's fair

sonic flame
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and quite a serious one at that, since it totally breaks the entire balancing of the combat system

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given that the attack power of juvenile animals should be controlled by that single value, if each attack is using its own value you'd end up with some special abilities doing far more or less damage than they should

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this would not be the first time I've learned of a game breaking combat bug tho

tacit oriole
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Well, no, every ability has a set final value but there is no reason they can't each have their own curve for growth

sonic flame
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Oh when I said should I meant that at the moment that is the case

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and if it is not the case at the moment, things are broken, badly

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I would love to see things like Stegosaurus having a far weaker tail attack until its tail spikes grow in, or Pachy headbutt damage spiking as the dome grows in

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at the moment such a thing is not set up, but would be a nice quality of life enhancement

tacit oriole
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It is possible that I hit a leg hitbox instead of body, so I tell you what - as with every other argument I've gotten into on here I can double check and prove it to you if you want

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I've definitely been wrong before, like tree climbing utahs

sonic flame
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Leg body and for some animals, arm hitboxes can be a bit of a bitch

tacit oriole
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And deino stuns on fg stego

sonic flame
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it's really hard to check those things without debug commands telling you exactly what's what

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since you would have no way of knowing if you are just consistently clipping the leg hitbox

tacit oriole
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Admin commands are pretty reliable for everything except bleed, which is an annoying multivariable puzzle I ran out of motivation to solve

sonic flame
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Yeah the admin commands are pretty nice, but the debug commands are exact

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so I can always verify it's working in a debug build, and since that code wasn't touched, it should be the case on public as well

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also yeah don't feel bad for not understanding bleed, my entire job is to understand every intricacy of the combat system and I only sort of know what's going on with it

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confusing as fuck

tacit oriole
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I k ow my way around most of it, enough to know what matter matters and what doesn't

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But it's a complex implementation

sonic flame
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ideally fractures will take after bleed

tacit oriole
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Like Hunger adds 30s to bleed heal, thirst adds 30s to bleed heal, but Hunger and thirst adds 45s

sonic flame
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that's... an interesting observation

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I'm fairly certain this is a case where my NDA prevents me from elaborating

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though, that is something I should probably look at

tacit oriole
sonic flame
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the bleed I mean

tacit oriole
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Is where I have been recording most of my testing

sonic flame
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oh cute this is like a public version of my sheet

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I love the little icons

tacit oriole
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That's SilverFoxs work, I'm more ugly spreadsheets kinda guy

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Engineers don't make good artists

sonic flame
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hmm, well this is some pretty good deduction, some of it isn't quite right

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No fault of your own of course, a lot of stuff you can't know without the devs telling

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tho I'd be hesitant relying too heavily on this sheet

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but yeah, that's about what'd I'd expect given the currently bleed bug

tacit oriole
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Fair

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It is frustrating that there's this desire to hide stats

sonic flame
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I think it's to avoid a Legacy situation where everyone would just dart into a bush and do math before fighting things

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or the cursed "we bit him 3 times, so he's already dead, stop attacking"

tacit oriole
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Imo good games don't hide stats. Look at CS, DOTA, PoE

sonic flame
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Yeah not my preferred solution, but eh what can ya do

tacit oriole
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It just gives experienced players another Advantage

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I gave up half way through testing anyway, not much point with the next update hopefully just around the corner

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Hence why there are probably errors

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I just want to try and educate so everybody is on an e en playing field

sonic flame
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I get that, plus I mean the experienced players will always just learn this stuff eventually anyway

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Personally I'd love to make a series of indepth videos explaining every in game mechanic, but currently that's not on the cards

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luckily the community is smart and yall have gotten pretty close on several occasions

tacit oriole
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But yeah, I know the Hunger and bleed numbers are rough/incorrect because there was assumptions going into it which proved wrong

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But there have been lots of urban myths with U3 which I wanted to show were or weren't true

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Like Hunger affects heal rates, or thirst affects bleed regen

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But this stuff is also why, even though I have a history in QA, I don't want to be part of the TI QA team - don't want to be shackled in what I can share

sonic flame
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Respectable decision

tacit oriole
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I am glad to hear that QA get decent debug tools instead of just being blind testers

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Anyway, to circle back around to the opening statements

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Weight gain should be more sinusoidal (sin(x-pi/2)+1, 0 < x < pi) than psuedo-exponential (x²)

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Start slow and end slow with most of your weight gain in the middle, if for no other reason than that's how it works in real life

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With damage and/or hp curves adjusted for balance, and model transitions adjusted as required

sonic flame
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hp no longer has its own curve so that's a non issue

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as for weight, I agree with the caveat that growth patterns should likely be focused more on what makes good gameplay than following real life animals too closely

tacit oriole
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Fair point

sonic flame
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i.e. where Stego slows and where Dryo slows shouldn't be the same location

tacit oriole
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I would think that damage is more important to gameplay than straight weight, HP and food issues aside

sonic flame
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True, though visually, a young adult animal I would think should be hitting significantly weaker than a full adult

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which would mean that attack power would likely spike near the end of growth

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now where attack power plateau's would be the most important thing, as a Teno that can't fight a Utah is a dead Teno

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at the same time, a Juvi has the advantage in general of smaller side, and subadults have proportionally faster sprints than adults in most cases

tacit oriole
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From a purely realism point of view - not that this is always a good one - it would depend on the type of attack. Pachy depends hugely on its weight to deal damage, while say carno is more around how bit and strong its Jaws are

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Like a fox terrier can mess you up almost as much as a cattle dog, despite being 1/5th the weight

sonic flame
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true, though for attacks like Carno's charge or Pachy's ram that depend on weight mostly sort themselves out as the animal grows

tacit oriole
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Agreed

sonic flame
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i.e. Teno cannot stun you unless you are within a certain size range anyway, reducing damage more than growth already does seems a bit too harsh for an animal already at a disadvantage

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and for some abilities like Carno's charge, a large enough weight difference will render the ability either useless, or cause recoil damage

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Teno will always deal the same amount of damage, even if it can't stun you, but Carno's charge, currently, deals less damage on a stagger vs a knockdown, has a threshold where the attack does nothing, and finally a threshold where you take damage

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most abilities leaning heavily into mass would ideally either be like Teno or Carno

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Teno for more dedicated defensive attacks, where if nothing else the raw damage may prove helpful, Carno's charge for offensive options

tacit oriole
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Agreed on all counts

sonic flame
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As for things like the Carno's bite, the universal modifier for attack damage during growth should mostly take care of that and other attacks

tacit oriole
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Worth considering what size prey each carnivore is meant to be catching at each stage of its life

sonic flame
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Yeah, there is currently a lack of ontogenetic niche partitioning, something that will hopefully arrive during nesting if not sooner

tacit oriole
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Like a 75% carno vs 75% teno is a whole different fight to FG vFG

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What sizes is Utah meant to be able to solo consistently, etc

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Is that size big enough to feed it

sonic flame
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Yeah, a significant issue does crop up though, that being we are still missing a huge range of animals meant to content with juvenile or subadults of the larger species

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So for the most part, things like what a Utah can hunt growing up are taken into account, but we simply lack the animals to full flesh out an ecosystem

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for now

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That's actually been a bit of an issue as of late

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Balance the animals for the current roster, and rebalance with every new addition, or just balance the animals around what they are meant to be in the final game, and slot the new animals in without having to adjust at much with every new addition

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the current methodology is balance for what they are, hence why Stego and Deino body everything else basically

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or why Utah when alone doesn't feel very scary

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the other option would involve treating Carno as an apex, and Utah as a mid tier

tacit oriole
sonic flame
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Obviously balance is ongoing, and as new combat mechanics and other creatures are added new mechanics and attacks will require stats to be adjusted

tacit oriole
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I think the development cycle is a bit too slow, and the community a bit to established to say "balance around a patch 18 months away"

sonic flame
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Yeah, though with how development currently is, it's not super feasible to create balance patches without delaying content updates since we still have to QA those builds

tacit oriole
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I absolutely understand the overhead around trying to build a new baseline every patch though

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And why they probably don't want to do that

sonic flame
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i.e. this is kinda the update 4 balance that was forced out too early due to a game breaking bug demanding a hotfix

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it was too much to roll back all the changes, so they got pushed ahead of the update with the mechanics the balance was accounting for, luckily it basically worked out

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but yeah, most of these numbers are with fractures taken into account

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so if balance updates were more regular, at least for now, there's the constant issue of pushing numbers that are with mechanics not in the game yet

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or possibly even accounting for playables that are still in development

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i.e. lets say Carno got its numbers tweaked for Cerato sometime in the future, but a balance patch was pushed before Cerato was done, then Carno has these seemingly random numbers to account for a creature not yet in game

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luckily Fracture is basically the final combat mechanic aside from creature specific things like venom and armor, so that makes combat easier to design

tacit oriole
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I do understand too that codebase management in UE is significantly more challenging than in say C# in github

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But I'm hoping that this current patch will be a lessons learnt in keeping backups of each shipped version for hot fixes

sonic flame
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Ideally streamlining the process will happen naturally as we move away from major mechanic implementation and switch to just implementing the animals themselves

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less game changing additions will naturally lead to less things breaking with each update hopefully

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though truthfully, the hurdles of the next few updates are immense

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Skins, not so much, that'll just be up to personal preference of the devs on what we can and can't use, but nesting is going to be quite a challenge, and not just because of all the nesting bugs like building a stairway to heaven

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then gore as well will be a nightmare, every single corpse will be so much more complicated

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venom, eh, not a complicated addition compared to bleed and fractures, only applied by one animal atm, Dilo's venom will be mechanically unique compared to Troodons

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after gore tho, we're basically home free dinosaur wise, just a matter of the creature's specific mechanics. If we make it to that point, then mid content update balance patches should be far more feasible

tacit oriole
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Moving away from a Simple EAC plugin towards something more robust will also require more sophisticated codebase management

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Because anti-cheat updates will need to happen independently of core updates

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EAC was always going to be a stop-gap and had probably already been defeated

#

Anyway thanks for your insight, good to see the QA team is being kept informed

#

While you are here: was it intentional that the teno secondary nerfs got rolled back second patch?

sonic flame
#

Which nerfs specifically?

#

The stamina costs?

tacit oriole
#

Very first patch that dropped tailslam and kick went from 400 & 300 to 300 &. 225

#

Then the following hotfix they went back to 400 &. 300

sonic flame
#

Oh, yeah those were accidental changes

#

intentional damage changes tend to be listed in the balance notes

tacit oriole
#

Ah, I thought that was very well thought out myself.

dawn falcon
#

It’s hilarious how you act like another Head of QA, Nova lmao

#

Not a bad thing tho

#

Funny coincidence

sonic flame
#

It was numbers that were spitballed, but held off since we didn't have an idea for Carno yet

tacit oriole
#

That's just good work ethic

sonic flame
#

Glad you think so lol

dawn falcon
#

I can see it now

Nova
Developer

sonic flame
#

Teno and Carno have a very important rivalry, so while the numbers were used and tested they weren't supposed to go with the rest of these changes

tacit oriole
#

I've been accused of a wannabe mod too. Just how it goes

sonic flame
#

hence why they were taken back, a case of added to early

#

Nah I have no actual development skill

#

Maybe I could learn how to tweak the balance numbers directly or fix an animation

alpine plover
tacit oriole
#

Imo they should of stayed, teno needed it

sonic flame
#

but programming is cursed

#

Teno does need something, but it was a bit too soon

tacit oriole
#

Kick is a bit OP with the bleed changes

sonic flame
#

perhaps its damage will drop with fractures again, but that is its own round of testing that'll need to be done

tacit oriole
#

Slash is no joke either

sonic flame
#

lol sorry but calling that attack Slash is both really clever and fucking funny to me

#

you meant the alternate primary right? the claw attack?

tacit oriole
#

Lol yeah

sonic flame
#

I coined a few terms that I use on the internal balance document for the attacks so I'm used to everyone using those

tacit oriole
#

Does it have an actual name? Or just alt primary

sonic flame
#

Technically it does have an actual name, I don't remember what the devs call it

#

in QA we call it either the alt attack, or the 360 Claw

#

all the alt attacks are 360 (attack name)

#

so Ptera has 360 peck, Carno has 360 Bite, Utah has 360 lunge

tacit oriole
#

Yeah, I like that from a consistency PoV

#

Except its even more for Utah and teno

#

Since bite got nerfed so hard

dawn falcon
#

You act like hypno just less scary TI_DT

sonic flame
dawn falcon
#

Oh really

tacit oriole
#

Are you able to share the basic mechanic behind Utah bite not causing bleed against some hitboxes?

sonic flame
dawn falcon
#

So he’s not just a QA lead then, he actually works on things huh

#

I’m assuming it’s the balance?

#

That he tweaks

sonic flame
#

Nah Filipe and Adam plus in the balance

dawn falcon
#

Don’t have to answer it if NDA

sonic flame
#

Hypno uses it to check some stuff tho if its easy

dawn falcon
#

I see

sonic flame
#

like "will this break if we make it a 1 instead of a 0"

tacit oriole
#

Dammit now I'm getting intrigued about QA... Resist... Resist

alpine plover
#

Hypno runs it all, basically.
Boss man

sonic flame
#

yeah, there was actually an unintentional nerf to Utah, that being the bite not being able to bleed a Stego in the body

dawn falcon
sonic flame
#

I say unintentional because we forgot about a mechanic and I had an "ah ha" moment

dawn falcon
#

It’s gonna be hell

#

Tho

tacit oriole
#

Oh, it's a bug? I mean I think it should stay

sonic flame
#

It's no bug, it's a mechanic that I forgot about lol

dawn falcon
#

Look at Nova. Bet he suffers from QAPTSD TI_Troll

tacit oriole
#

Like realism wise no way a Utah could get through the fatty layers of a stego with a bite

sonic flame
#

You have to deal a certain % of the targets health to bleed them, it was implemented way back in Update 3 stress test

#

I can find the exact patch later, but it was to keep hatchlings from bleeding adults

#

Utah's bite falls under that threshold against an adult Stego

tacit oriole
#

Ah, so it Is linked to ability damage, I did wonder

sonic flame
#

Important to note is that Pounce doesn't have that rule

#

so a 0% Utah's pounce will bleed an adult stego

dawn falcon
#

Is that intended tho

sonic flame
#

yea

#

cause the raw damage is ass

tacit oriole
#

Yeah, pounce applies separate bleed and damage effects per tick, right?

sonic flame
#

Yes and no

#

The damage and all that is normal DOT stuff

#

but the bleed on pounce is unique

#

Pounce bleed uses the same system as regular bleed, but it's much higher than the raw damage would suggest

tacit oriole
#

Bleeds are just applied like debuffs, aren't they? Like independent poison effects with variable duration

#

Psuedo-DoT

sonic flame
#

NDA prevents me from getting specific about how mechanics work lol

#

but basically yeah

tacit oriole
#

Yeah fair. Don't get yourself in trouble

sonic flame
#

Tho bleed itself applies no direct debuff, it lowers blood pool

#

having a lower blood pool gives a debuff

tacit oriole
#

Yup, I'm a big fan of how bleed works this patch

#

No idea if my suggestions played any part in it being implemented but it's everything I wanted from it haha

#

Well, except for how bleeds stack

sonic flame
#

Your bleed damage is determined by your raw damage (higher=higher), bleed time by how "healthy" you are (this part is bugged, will explain how in a second), and movement will increase bleed damage taken in the predetermined time

#

at the moment anyway

dawn falcon
#

I remember recommending wallowing as a way to clot bleed.
What do you know
On update 2, it happened

sonic flame
#

each wound also heals independently

tacit oriole
#

Not a fan of how every bleed effect is independent of every other bleed effect...

#

Yeah, that

sonic flame
#

It's to make it so a Utah can't nip you to keep a Stego jab's worth of bleed going

#

or so they can't use alt attacks to avoid pouncing more than a single time per hunt

#

Regretfully it's time for me to leave, hope yall enjoyed that little side track

tacit oriole
#

I think each attack type should have wounds independent of other attack types, but pounce especially should stack better with other pounces on that slot

sonic flame
tacit oriole
#

Fair, thanks for sharing

dawn falcon
tacit oriole
#

Anyway for anybody else following: Pounce should stack up and keep pounce wounds open, so if you get pounced on the same place twice its much worse than getting pounced in two different places

#

So if you are a stego and have had your left flank shredded by Utah, you want to focus on protecting that until it really starts healing

#

That's just an imo and others probably disagree

dawn falcon
#

I like that idea. It adds a more fundamental risk to being pounced

tacit oriole
#

I like raising the skill ceiling too

#

Atm I feel like Utah combat is a bit too simplistic

#

Pounce, dismount, don't get bit while recovering stam

fathom obsidian
#

Just finished reading, that conversation was very good hope to see more TI_Perfect

vestal gust
#

@hard berry it’s because you’re asking for changes to a legacy dino. That version of the game is no longer in development and the devs aren’t touching it at all

tacit oriole
#

I was hoping I might get a sneaky DM with a clue but sadly they are a person of strong moral character

tacit oriole
sonic flame
#

So bleed time isn’t as long as it should be, reducing bleed damage across the board

tacit oriole
#

Ah, makes sense, so there's an overall healthiness rating determined by HP, stamina, food, water, and it should determine how long bleeds take to heal

#

Then stance determines bleed rate along with the injury itself

sonic flame
#

Yeah, the levels of those all contribute, but atm they contribute too much

#

Thus, it’s too easy to get the minimum timer

#

While the maximum is never seen

tacit oriole
#

Right, so the fact that I'm getting different bleed/sec based purely off of changes to healthiness means I have errors

sonic flame
#

Well bleed per sec is independent of bleed time

#

Your bleed damage is set by the attack, and modified based on movement state

tacit oriole
#

But healthiness doesn't affect bleed/sec, right?

#

Wait

sonic flame
#

Healthiness affects bleed duration

tacit oriole
#

Are you saying that being unhealthy and having a longer bleed heal won't actually make you take more bleed damage?

#

Because that would be very silly

sonic flame
#

So if you bled at 10/sec, healthiness changed if you bleed for 10 seconds or 20 seconds

tacit oriole
#

Yeah good, that's what I assumed

sonic flame
#

Random numbers

#

That 10/sec would be from the attack, and your healthiness at the time of injury determines bleed duration

tacit oriole
#

Thought you were saying healthy = 10/s for 10, unhealthy = 5/s for 20

#

Was saying dat stooooopid

sonic flame
#

Moving faster during that predetermined bleed duration increases bleed rate

#

But yeah no, bleed duration is what your healthiness affects

tacit oriole
#

Yeah good, all as I'd expect, and the original injury determines the base bleed/s based on damage and maybe some sort of bleed flag/value

sonic flame
#

Everything else is handled based on raw damage and movement

#

It’s all based on inflicted raw

#

Only attack in the game that doesn’t use the universal number is pounce

tacit oriole
#

OK so my bleed testing was definitely seriously flawed

sonic flame
#

Everything else inflicts bleed based on a shared bleed damage modifier

tacit oriole
#

I hate doing it because I'm making someone else stand there and waste their time

sonic flame
#

Thus why Stego deals crazy bleed, it has crazy raw damage

tacit oriole
#

Yeah good, makes sense and is nice and consistent

sonic flame
#

Bleeder animals or their special attacks, like the Allo grapple, will likely use unique values to allow them to kill via bleed instead of raw

fathom obsidian
#

That's the reason why I did my test on standing full healthy targets, to get consistent results, bleed has a lot of variables

tacit oriole
#

Presumably blunt-type attacks will have a similar mechanism for fractures

sonic flame
#

Less complicated there, but yeah that’s the general plan

tacit oriole
#

And that Does mean that bleed is affected by locational modifiers, glad I got that right

sonic flame
#

Blunt damage isn’t dot for example, and the effects are quite a bit simpler to understand

#

Yep, it’s why only face or neck bites bleed Stego from Utah

tacit oriole
#

I really like that there is that floor for bleed now, one of the suggestions I was happiest to see implemented

fathom obsidian
#

Is that going to change or is Utah not supposed to bleed stego with body bites?

sonic flame
#

A similar floor will likely exist for fractures

tacit oriole
#

Though tbh I think it could be higher

#

Like the idea is you are bleeding hard enough to leave a trail of blood

sonic flame
#

Plus pounce deals crazy bleed damage relative to the raw

tacit oriole
#

Yeah, and bleeds are independent so you can't keep a pounce going with bites or claws, even if you hit the same spot. Which is fair if unintuitive

fathom obsidian
#

Yeah, i was asking just for the reason to keep the wound open when he goes for a wallow

tacit oriole
#

Wallow clot is just straight removed when you take any damage

#

Which is also a bit silly tbh

#

Like you can get pecked on the toe by a baby ptera and bam stego wallow is gone

sonic flame
#

Yeah the system could use some additional tweaks, bleed is far from complete I’d say

tacit oriole
#

An easy way is you just make any attack against a wallowed target apply high proportional bleed up to the limit of the original wallowed bleed

sonic flame
#

Do keep in mind wallow only slows bleed, it doesn’t stop it on its own

#

To reduce incoming bleed damage to nothing, you need to wallow, then rest

#

The modifiers stack

tacit oriole
#

Makes sense. Wait... Does that mean there's an additive modifier in there?

#

Or a straight floor for bleed

sonic flame
#

Wallow subtracts X% of incoming bleed damage

#

Resting also does that

#

Add them together and you get 100% reduction

tacit oriole
#

I thought they all stacked multiplicative

#

Hmm

sonic flame
#

We had it like that at first, led to some bugs

tacit oriole
#

Yeah, makes sense

sonic flame
#

Also trot is “normal” bleed, walk and below reduce it, sprinting increases it

#

That changes nothing on your sheet, just a bit of trivia

tacit oriole
#

Oh, interesting, I assumed standing was the baseline

fathom obsidian
#

before update 3 wallow used to stop it completely, which wasn't very good imo

tacit oriole
#

Yeah doesn't change anything just interesting

#

I'd like to see wallow effectiveness scale with total wallow amount, too

fathom obsidian
#

So trot is 1x modifier, interesting

sonic flame
#

Standing was base at first, became too much of a hassle to balance so we swapped it to trotting since it’s the fastest movement method without spending stamina

tacit oriole
#

Atm even a microwallow is just as effective as a full one, which is silly

sonic flame
#

I’ll check if it’s a thing on a debug build tomorrow

tacit oriole
#

Ah, see that's the thing

fathom obsidian
tacit oriole
#

It does require the whole animation

#

But only the getting up bit

sonic flame
#

Huh

tacit oriole
#

As long as you get a single shade of mud applied to your model you get the effect when you finish standing

#

Which is obviously a bit silly

sonic flame
#

Yeah, I’ll get that reported, hopefully it’ll make it into the next patch

fathom obsidian
#

Nova can I ask you when bleed baseline got changed from standing to trot? Just to know if my doc is still relevant

tacit oriole
#

I think it makes sense, but just scale the effect based on how wallowed you are

sonic flame
#

It’s all backend numbers, the stuff the players see is gonna be the same

tacit oriole
#

If you get 50% of the wallow you get 50% of the clot effect

fathom obsidian
#

Ok gotcha thanks

tacit oriole
#

Gating it behind full wallow or no effect is even sillier than it is now imo

sonic flame
tacit oriole
#

Yeah, that would be TI_Perfect

#

I'd like to see wallow last longer based on stance too, just quietly

sonic flame
#

Wallow will probably receive some QOL in the future, it’s pretty basic mechanic wise

#

And still doesn’t even work on Hypsi lol, damn feathers keep breaking the overlay

tacit oriole
#

I assumed that was deliberate haha

sonic flame
#

Nah, bugged, and stubborn to

tacit oriole
#

Hypsi too proud to get its plumage dirty

#

Or maybe oily feathers?

#

It is a seriously complex little model

sonic flame
#

Was “fixed” every other patch during update 3, then we gave up on 3.5 till a texture artist could figure it out

#

The eyebrows, feather UVs and actual model could have the mud on them, but not multiple at once

#

So if you got the body, the tail fan had no mud

tacit oriole
#

I doubt many if any have even noticed. I kinda preferred it like it is haha

sonic flame
#

Or the eyebrows would get muddy, and not the body, etc lol

tacit oriole
#

Oh wow

sonic flame
#

It’s a minor bug that most would excuse as intentional, so it’s low priority

tacit oriole
#

Probably also why they don't get any of the damage textures applied

sonic flame
#

Yep

fathom obsidian
#

Nova, so the reason why some player complained about turn rate is also tied to fps right? That's why some players experience it more than others

tacit oriole
#

Not that it would make sense for weird blood textures to get applied to feathers anyway

sonic flame
tacit oriole
fathom obsidian
#

When my fps drop my animals refuse to turn and i was like " oh so that's what they mean"

sonic flame
#

That’s why not only is it tied to FPS, it’s also universal

tacit oriole
#

Because of the desync allowances

sonic flame
#

Utah Carno and Stego all have the same inertia, because we didn’t have time to test and customize

#

It snuck into a build, two days later y’all had a patch

tacit oriole
#

Well, hopefully everyone learnt a bit about deploying late hotfixes and it won't happen again haha

#

Some things you gotta learn the hard way

sonic flame
#

Unless another bug as big as last one happens, we should be fine

#

Someone found an exploit with Hypsi and a third party program to crash servers within 20 seconds of joining

fathom obsidian
#

Speaking of desync I'm worried the current stance is to not implement some sort of lag prediction

tacit oriole
#

It was always going to happen with the developer Backdoor. Hoping U4 will secure it with async encryption keys instead

sonic flame
#

Idk what the plan on that is tbh, will depend on how vital it becomes going forward

tacit oriole
#

I've run the whole gammet on that. Coming from a high security background first reaction was "They WHAT?"

#

Because it's a short step from that to remote code execution

sonic flame
#

Yep

#

Hence the panic patch

tacit oriole
#

Then I sort of realised why when EAC got put in

#

And it makes sense with how and why that's implemented

sonic flame
#

Well, I’ve got to head off to bed, y’all have fun

fathom obsidian
#

Good night Nova

tacit oriole
#

Night, and thanks

fathom obsidian
#

The whole convo was amazing

sonic flame
#

Np, and night

tacit oriole
#

Yeah saved me soooooo much time

#

BTW SOAD previous offer still stands if you want to do extended bleed testing with admin commands to capture exact numbers

#

I did a bit but I obviously made mistakes trying to rush it with bored helpers

fathom obsidian
#

I have a big problem on that, some eu players can't see some servers since like 4 days now, even officials won't appear, gotta check that hide empty button, but the problem is i can't see my own test server, bc it's actually empty and gets hidden, and it won't show anymore (even without hide empty checked)

#

I tried to post on Evrima troubleshooting but got no answers so I don't know what to do, seems to affect a good numbers of EU players this

tacit oriole
#

Hmmm. I had some issues with my server not showing after a name change but it came up after 15min

fathom obsidian
#

So with patch coming soon, i decided to not renew my server for now, since you won't be able to run it with QA stress test version anyway

#

But yeah something strange with eu resolver i guess

tacit oriole
#

It's all through steam though, shouldn't matter

fathom obsidian
#

It's not the first time this happen but it was always temporary

tacit oriole
#

Unless the hosts are blacklisted somehow

fathom obsidian
#

Don't think so, even officials won't show up

tacit oriole
#

I'm pretty ignorant of how the steam server api works so can't really say

fathom obsidian
#

Gotta check that hide empty as work around

tacit oriole
#

Anyway, if you did want to, mine is available and I can chuck you admin on it for testing

fathom obsidian
#

Also tried every solution like changing steam ping etc

#

If it's an NA server it won't show for us i can tell you already

#

But send the server name in dm, tomorrow I'll check if I can see it

cedar shore
#

@sly helm that wouldt work well with the current controlls

hard berry
#

So i said in balance feedback to buff para stam regen and bleed resistance and the majority disagreed. Is the para actually good or something because i heard on youtube that it was terrible

slim dragon
tacit oriole
#

It's like saying "I think the 1993 ford ranger should come with leather seats next year"

hard berry
slim dragon
timber bane
hollow canyon
lament cloak
#

"tenonto, the creature with a literal sword for a tail, should try to choose flight over fight"

#

thats like asking trike to run away from a t rex

barren oracle
#

it should most of the time

#

its fast and small enough

lament cloak
#

it isnt, obviously it isnt going to fight an allo. but its entire kit is built around beating you senseless

#

you don't make something like that run away from fights all the time

dawn falcon
#

People will run if they have to lol

#

Don’t design it that way

#

Leave that to dryo

barren oracle
sinful cove
#

Why does somebody want to punish herbis harder for getting in to fights when they are slower than their predators? They must just hate herbis

#

“Make tenos attacks drain more stam and make its heal shit” like this can come from nowhere but pure spite

barren oracle
#

tbf teno has to chose to fight or run very fast cause its attacks drain so much stam

sinful cove
#

He shoupd only need to run from packs and large predators, wrecking his stam and heal in fights will ruin him against current matchups

#

People want herbis to be shit at fighting and always just run away even if they are slow because they dont want to get killed by a plant eater

barren oracle
#

teno should really stop fighting at like 2 carnos

#

or a cera

sinful cove
#

2 carnos aure, but he usually has no choice

lament cloak
#

teno should fight cera, two carnos. yeah, sure but at that point its dead anyway if they are any competitent

sinful cove
#

Unless the carnos are in open plains and teno spots them 2362826329 meters away or the carnos are just bad

crystal wharf
#

i think we found the utah main

sinful cove
#

“Buff utah, nerf herbivores” yep lmao

crystal wharf
#

fucking
nerf the only combat herbivore in the games history to not be able to fight things its size
perfect

sonic flame
#

Wouldn't Trike and Diablo in Legacy count as combat herbivores?

#

or Stego in Evrima?

#

Though I guess if you mean a brawler then those don't really count

crystal wharf
#

trike and diablo werent complete
should have specified
stego in evrima also isnt complete

sonic flame
#

While I won't disagree with that, which mechanics do you feel are missing from Stego?

crystal wharf
#

"full tail control"

#

whatever that means

sonic flame
#

oh right that

#

I actually forgot about that lol

true ginkgo
crystal wharf
#

stego is finally viable
at least so i've heard

stark knoll
#

imo stego needs a sweep of some sort, i dont want to bring up legacy, but like legacy's

sonic flame
#

since Stego's Jab is better suited to slower moving targets with large weakspots

true ginkgo
#

Stat wise and power wise, stego is very viable.

It's still failing to feel like a stego at all.

crystal wharf
#

i think honestly
stego doesnt need any changes based on the current live build
fractures might change that, though i doubt it

lament cloak
crystal wharf
#

unless pachy swarms just completely check stego in everyway

sonic flame
#

plus locational being fixed means that you can't kill a Stego by shoving your head up its ass

true ginkgo
crystal wharf
true ginkgo
#

a stego shouldn't be just standing its ground and tanking rex. it should be trying to leave while preventing itself being followed.

sonic flame
true ginkgo
sonic flame
#

I think the bigger problem is that Stego is actually weakest from directly behind it

#

since the jab is slower based on angles, and behind it is the 2nd slowest

crystal wharf
#

no apex should actively try to tank another apex
it should be a game of using your special ability to end the encounter
in rexes case, though an ambush into mouth grapple
spino a game of keep away until your enemy falls
stego same as spino

sonic flame
#

but it also has the smallest zone that can be threatened

#

With Stego, if it's jab can stop a Rex's grapple attempt, it may be able to fend off a Rex

#

but it'd be a close thing, Stego, at least at 6 tons, simply isn't big enough to afford a few attacks from Rex

#

though I'd hope most of Rex's damage is based on its mouth grapple instead of promoting LMB spam

true ginkgo
#

Still has the issue that no matter its stats, it's still failing to feel like a stego.

It could be one shotting a hyper rex levels of viable. It doesn't play like anyone pictures a stego.

#

If you ask someone 'how does a stego fight', they will answer 'swing its tail'

And it can't.

sonic flame
#

Yeah, the fact that it's a spear thrust instead of a sweep is kinda fucking strange

#

but it's not entirely out of what people would portray a stego as

#

granted the only example of a jab instead of a swing that I can think of is from a long out of date documentary

crystal wharf
#

the one where it bends its plates?

sonic flame
#

yeah that's the one

crystal wharf
#

that one

sonic flame
#

yep

#

that's basically our Stego jab animation 1 to 1

#

from the side anyway, the fastest angle

true ginkgo
sonic flame
#

You could argue that the front angled jabs are more similar to swings

#

still not exactly swings, but closer at least

#

I assume you would be talking about something like this Frumpkin?

Tail_swing.gif
crystal wharf
#

like
the jab isnt even a bad attack
its great for doing what its meant to do, which is fend off predators while turning you
which will be great when there is things like
oh idk
massive apex predators, to which they arent ducking and dodging attacks

a swing would make more sense for things like utah or troodon which the stego is going to hit once and basically fucking atomize

true ginkgo
#

Jab: Stationary, higher damage, slow, large attack angle.
Swing: Walking/Trotting, lower damage, fast, small attack angle.

sonic flame
#

Wouldn't the lower damage make it easier for a rex to just say "fuck it" and push through the attack?

true ginkgo
#

It can endlessly face away

#

That diagram I posted shows it

sonic flame
#

cause a trotting Stego also isn't going to be outpacing a Rex, so it could do is buy time until the rex gets bored, or pushes through the tail I would imagine

true ginkgo
#

Stopping, taking the time to jab (and aim with it), and then moving to turn again takes a lot longer.

sonic flame
#

give that the jab does somewhat move you into a more optimal position to jab again, proper usage may very well allow you to fend off a rex

#

though again this entire thing comes down to how Rex's grapple works

#

and if the Jab/Swing would have the ability to stop the grapple

#

cause if they can't the rex would just speed through and slam the Stego, moving attack or not

crystal wharf
#

imo
only the strong special attacks should cancel out the others
so it would be a jab needed to stop the grapple

true ginkgo
sonic flame
true ginkgo
#

RMB?

sonic flame
#

the grapple button

#

or rather, the secondary attack

true ginkgo
#

I mean if it can just run up to stego and grab its tail with one button, then it's GG

sonic flame
#

since the LMB would likely just be your classic bite

#

the RMB I'd imagine personally as more of a lunge that if it connects leads into a grapple

#

like Allo but with the mouth, and fracture instead of bleed

#

so the rex may be able to just tank a few of the swings and fucking body the Stego unless the Stego can produce enough raw power to put it off in a few hits

true ginkgo
#

If any dino was going to be a 'camp in one spot' dino, I thought it would be anky.

But looks like they want that thing to be a sprinter.

sonic flame
#

i.e. the Jab's higher damage could potentially allow it to fracture the Rex's face and prevent the Rex from using its pin, or substantially weakening it

true ginkgo
#

I personally think stego should amply the flight and fight simultaneously approach.

sonic flame
#

Yeah our Anky is built for speed, and even so lacks the ability to pivot as well as Stego does, which is saying something because stego turns like a bus

#

Rhino anky eugh

true ginkgo
#

meanwhile irl anky literally lived with rexes...

sonic flame
#

That's a different discussion lol, back to Stego

#

Against a Rex you probably wouldn't want to tangle with it regardless

#

Rex, if it hits you as a Stego, is going to fucking hurt

#

but Stego also isn't gonna be outrunning it ever

hollow canyon
#

I'd hold on with saying how the fights between apexes should look like. I know for sure that I don't want them to by anything like the current fights that involve Stego and Deino but we simply don't know what mechanics each apex is going to have at its disposal. I'm just going to point out that I don't think Spino has any business hunting a Stego. I can see Rex and Giga going after it via different means but Spino specifically imo has no business hunting an apex herbivore with a high damage output.

sonic flame
#

even trot vs trot I'd imagine the rex is going to be fast enough that keeping up shouldn't be an issue

true ginkgo
#

I don't think it's about outrunning it. More just extending the amount of time that rex is trying to get past the tail to the head.

sonic flame
#

Fair, though the rex may just blitz the fight at the start in that case to limit the amount of time the Stego has to smack it

true ginkgo
#

It will take longer to get around a stego trotting away than it will take to get around a stationary stego.

sonic flame
#

especially since the trotting Stego is likely cripplingly slower than a sprinting rex

hollow canyon
#

It might try to do that but it will be getting hit over the head while its closing the distance towards Stego's head, that might be what will be needed for Stego to win that engagement.

sonic flame
#

Spino seems like Stego imo, both are built to fuck you up if you come to them, but have no business being on offense

true ginkgo
#

Really hope kentro has a swing so I can just forget stego exists. Not holding my breath though

sonic flame
#

I mean that was mentioned

#

personally I'd like the swing, but I'd rather see it geared to dealing with crowds of small animals than being its apex defense

hollow canyon
sonic flame
#

making Stego the ultimate glass cannon, at least as far as 'apex' animals go seems like an interesting playstyle

#

So it's hitting hard enough to make even a Rex think twice about running in stupidly, but at the same time it's not really built to fight animals like rex regularly

true ginkgo
#

I like it standing its ground vs smalls and mids, and even psuedo apexes.

But I think that it should be trying to disengage and move away from true apexes.

hollow canyon
#

^

true ginkgo
#

As stego simply isn't on the level of anky, trike, and shant

sonic flame
#

cause in terms of health it's an Acro/Para, but in damage it's more of an apex. The problem is that damage is risky, because it makes you stand still

hollow canyon
#

Yea I think Stego is most well suited to taking on packs of smaller animals much more so than the largest of carnivores. That of course doesn't mean that it should be fodder to the latter.

sonic flame
#

Yeah Stego isn't built for fighting animals like rex, but when it comes to disengaging it kinda feels more like a "heed the warning signs and leave before they show up" and if a rex does find you, hope that you're on your A game because one mistake means death

hollow canyon
#

Quite opposite to the Trike which i think should handle the apexes better than it handles multiple opponents due to its smaller AoE.

sonic flame
#

the trotting tail swing kinda feels less nail biting because you're just walking away and clicking whenever it gets close enough, oversimplification, however I do think it's a bit easier

#

Yeah Trike I'd imagine being borderline invincible from the front, and really only from the front

hollow canyon
#

It is but it's just a little something that might make it possible for the Stego to win the fight if the apex engages it from the back.

true ginkgo
hollow canyon
#

Exactly, if you get to the Trike from behind you're getting yourself some nice Trike-burgers

sonic flame
#

By the time we get actual apexes, I'd be very surprised if there wasn't a robust network of early warning signs

#

since that kind of horror "Something big is coming" stuff is right up Dondi's alley

true ginkgo
#

Either I want the trotting tail swing and the standing jab together.

Or a standing tail swing replacing the jab

sonic flame
#

I definitely feel that making Stego forced to stand still is hard to balance correctly, but could be done well enough that it works, and would make it unique compared to the other apexes. Though at the same time I really have no problem with it getting a swing

#

I'd personally like one, but I can see why we don't have one atm if Jab is doing a good enough job

true ginkgo
#

The jab isn't even great vs smalls, so it doesn't fill the role of punching down large herbi currently.

sonic flame
#

Jab seems built specifically for fucking up larger animals

true ginkgo
#

it's a precision weapon trying to accuratly stab at high speed tiny utahs.

sonic flame
#

Yeah, hence why I was indicating that if we got a swing, I'd like it to be for smaller targets

true ginkgo
#

inb4 trike gets a massive arc head sweep and is the dedicated anti small large herbi. And useless vs apexes

sonic flame
#

Money's on trike getting a charge

true ginkgo
#

I hope so

sonic flame
#

Legacy Dossier had that as a mention, and like the Spinosaurid claw swipes I wouldn't count that info out solely because "haha legacy"

#

don't take it 100% of course

#

but like, I'd bet on it

true ginkgo
#

Even a standing tail swing would be preferable to the current jab imo. Cut the damage, but have it as a huge arc.

sonic flame
#

The jab when you angle it just in front of the shoulders is your best bet for a swing replacement

#

it covers a huge area, and at decent speed

#

2nd fastest angle

true ginkgo
#

Going to have to suggest Wuerhosaurus as a playable to get an actual stegosaur which plays like one. pain

It's like how legacy para felt like playing a ceratopsian. Awful at travelling, amazing at facetanking.

sonic flame
#

And then there's Legacy Diablo

#

stam city

true ginkgo
#

After the first 4 mins, dibble overhauled para due to regening all its stam so fast. Para just had to sit for 20 mins.

#

dibble crossmapped way faster.

sonic flame
#

I think even Cama outpaced Para

#

it's trot was far faster iirc

true ginkgo
#

para had 2nd worst trot in the game i think

#

combined with stam which took like 20 mins to come back.

#

and you needed stam to actually fight too

sonic flame
#

Para was fucking painful

true ginkgo
#

if you dared to ever use your sprint, you were just free food for the first creature which saw you.

#

so just had to travel using the trot

sonic flame
#

Wouldn't have been that bad if the trot wasn't awful

true ginkgo
#

yeah if it had a good trot it would have been far more fun. still wouldn't feel like a para due to being a god facetanker.

#

same issue i'm having with stego tbh.

untold frost
#

Ok i can see the concerns people are having with my suggestion earlier, and I can see why. I think i failed to clarify my intent with this suggestion.

The intent was coming from over aggressive herbis in general, not to make herbis useless. I just find herbi a bit too easy to play and that Im not punished enoyht for looking to fight things. Herbivores in general (to my understanding) should be encouraged to play more defensively and smart to avoid confrontation.

I don't think a single tenonto should be able to 1 v 2 a duo of carnos as someone in this discussion said either, that should be a favorable match up for the 2 carnos.

sinful cove
#

Your suggestion does make teno pretty useless though. Also making all herbis ‘prefer to run away’ despite their inferior speed adds to the issue of herbis having fewer and more boring playstyles than carnis

#

And punishing slow herbis with awful heal times

#

Animals who have no choice but to defend shouldnt be punished more than their attackers

#

This lessens the amount of thought and strategy predators would need to hunt defensives and that’s pretty shit

sonic flame
#

Yeah as the general rule of thumb, if you are too slow to run, you either have to be small enough to hide, or large enough to fight

#

Nothing is faster than a Carno in a straight line, so everything has to be able to deal with a Carno either with stealth, or strength, as an example

#

(technically agility also works in this case, but that's not the case for everything and I like simplifying my examples)

sinful cove
#

Troodon: uses venomous bites and minimal contact aided by their nightvision to exhaust their prey until they are too weak to fight back
Utah: “BLEED BLEED BLEEED”

“Their niches are too similar”

#

At least its what troodon looks like it will do

#

Idk why he thinks they are clones of each other

#

And yeah slow animals who cant hide should have the upper hand in melee

sonic flame
#

Troodon is a mob, Utah is a coordinated group, or at least that's how I look at it

#

Yeah sure Troodon's can play in a coordinated manner, and Utah's can just throw themselves at things and hope to stack enough damage to make their death worth it, but for the most part Troodon is gonna just dart in, bite, dart out and try to repeat as many times as possible, while Utahs are gonna want to be a little more careful

sinful cove
#

They both seem like they can be coordinated but utah seems like he'll rely on it a bit more

sonic flame
#

since losing a Troodon is also far less of a punishment, and each Troodon isn't as powerful

dapper frost
#

the only similarity besides like body frame between them is using numbers to take on larger prey, however they do such by different means

sonic flame
#

I really wouldn't be surprised if Troodon gets a pounce of some sort, but even if it does get a pounce I highly doubt it'll be like Utah's

sinful cove
#

Its like saying giga is the same as acro because they both like to hunt sauropods

#

Or like sucho and spino are the same because they both eat fish

tacit oriole
#

I still think that herbivores should typically have longer heal times than their carnivore equivalents, just like they typically have slower run speeds

#

Herbivores should be avoiding combat where possible, while carnivores don't have that luxury

hollow canyon
#

I mean - I guess that could work for the locked health maybe. Perhaps when an active method of healing that gets introduced(if it gets introduced? We were supposed to be getting it but the devs haven't mentioned it past the patch notes to update 1) it could be faster/easier for carnivores than for herbivores, but I don't think that the normal healing should be necessarily slower as that could be heavily abused in certain match-ups(although admittedly I can absolutely picture some carnivores having this sort of attrition-style of hunting where they go into a lengthy fight where they "outheal" their prey item).

sinful cove
#

Herbis usually dont have the luxury to avoid a fight when a carni is around either

#

They are slower, and diets will push them to certain areas where predators will now know to wait

#

It breeds situations like legacy trike where a giga could tussle with it for a few seconds and then just walk around while it dies because the giga had superior mobility and heal

hollow canyon
#

They only have to get into a fight when they are found by a predator that's willing to hunt them though. You can live as a herbivore without encountering a single soul just fine.

sinful cove
#

Atm maybe, but unless you want to ruin your dinos health youll now have to travel to areas where your paired predators will know to look for you

hollow canyon
#

Giga shouldn't be walking around if it's engaged a Trike tbh, I do understand what you're talking about but generally you want to sit down to abuse your faster healing rate and to save your health points.

#

Can't speak about the future updates but there's always a possibility to avoid players altogether it's down to them whether they can find you while you travel/look for food.

sinful cove
hollow canyon
#

I've never lost to a Trike as a Giga either and I've even 1v2ed them but I've also killed quite a couple of Gigas as a Trike

#

the key factor for the trike in that fight is to stop trotting as soon as it gets bitten

sinful cove
#

Yeah so you just have to be lucky as a big fat slow stego or trike that a faster predator or pack doesnt find you?

hollow canyon
#

any trike that trots in that fight is bad

#

It's arguable whether that's down to luck - you could say that growing a Deino is down to luck right now and yet I can do it pretty much every time I sit down to get a Deino

#

It's more so down to knowing the map and the right areas

sinful cove
#

You can avoid player interaction if you are lucky and/or on a dead server, otherwise your predators just heal faster than you and can h it and run over and over while you die and they recover from your hits

#

Thats what it would lead to

hollow canyon
#

Well it's more so that I do see that certain carnivores could hunt that way by abusing their fast healing, not necessarily just to hunt herbivores but also other carnivores

sinful cove
#

Way to kill the herbi playerbase even more if that is the goal

hollow canyon
#

I think that healing rates should generally depend on the species and shouldn't be the same for every animal

#

be it herbivore or carnivore

sinful cove
#

Punish them harder for combat they cant avoid if a predator sees them

#

Species is fine, faction is not

hollow canyon
#

E.g. if you have a high metabolism animal that's supposed to remain active the whole time with a short hunger timer it would also have a higher healing rate due to the fact that it doesn't have the luxury to just sit down and relax. While others perhaps more catered to players who prefer to just hang around could have more forgiving hunger times while also taking longer to heal.

#

Of course it would have to be balanced on a case to case basis.

#

E.g. an animal that heals longer should probably be the one that gets to choose its engagements more so

#

E.g. a Galli, maybe a Carno

#

If you don't get to choose your engagements then yea you should probably get to heal faster

sinful cove
#

Galli and carno are high metabolism animals so that doesnt add up, but the ones who can escape or arent supposed to fight a lot (ambush hunters, fast hunters, flight animals) should have slower heal times yes

hollow canyon
#

But my point is more so that it would be make sense for some carnivore to hunt via attrition by outhealing its prey items, probably some bleeder since that affects the healing rate.

sinful cove
#

Something that wont have a choice if it is spotted or is intended for brawling large enemies shouldnt be punished for doing it

hollow canyon
#

Idk about Galli, I don't see any reason why it should be healing with an above average rate

sinful cove
#

It shouldnt

#

It should run

#

Same with utah and carno

hollow canyon
#

it's not an animal that can't choose its engagements and it has literally 0 reason to get into a fight with anything, I think it should be one of the slower healers in the game

sinful cove
#

Utah is equipped to avoid hits

#

Well, when the turn bs is fixed

hollow canyon
#

Carno - depends, if it has a high hunger rate as it does currently then it should be healing quickly

sinful cove
#

If carno is supposed to be ambushing and finishing off smaller dinos it doesnt need a fast heal rate

hollow canyon
#

but if it has a larger hunger pool then its healing rate should be slow(admittedly it already kind of is)

sinful cove
#

It isnt supposed ti brawl

#

Cera should have an above average heal rate, carno below average

hollow canyon
#

It already does - Tenonto outheals it quite hard

sinful cove
#

Good honestly

hollow canyon
#

iirc it took me 10 minutes to heal up Tenonto from barely any health to full and 15-17 minutes for Carno

#

It's not really good atm due to its low hunger pool

#

you have to be hunting pretty much all the time with it

sinful cove
#

Cera ahould have teno's heal rate and carno should be discouraged from brawling

#

The hunger pool is ba i agree

#

Carno ahould only need like 20% of his body weight in food

#

Not be eating a whole alligator

hollow canyon
#

I remember once playing the game in a manner where I would spend half the time healing up and half the time fighting a Utah pack because I had to balance out the healing and eating

#

Admittedly locked health was a factor there

sinful cove
#

Predator food intake values are fucked rn

hollow canyon
#

Yea they are

#

that's probably the main issue with it right now

#

so I don't want to make any long-term judgements on the matter

sinful cove
#

Food intake, and turn radius/bleed issue with utah

hollow canyon
#

they were rather artificially set to 45 minutes for most animals where 45 minutes was a very short hunger pool in the legacy

#

iirc Ceratorex had a 45 hunger-timer and it was considered as something that had to eat almost constantly

#

With most animals lasting an hour+ and then the apexes lasting even longer

sinful cove
#

Should also depend on diets now, if you eat stuff you arent supposed ti then sure your hunger should drain faster, but generally 45min is insane for most predators

hollow canyon
#

Fair point

#

I personally don't mind having to eat constantly but I do feel that it should be accompanied by a relatively high healing rate

sinful cove
#

Could see fishers having a faster hunger drain due to easier access but most predators should be able to go longer

hollow canyon
#

otherwise it's kind of bad for solo play

#

it's fine if you're in a large Carno pack because you don't really take much damage if you're packed with a large number of other Carnos but for solo it's pretty ugh

#

And admittedly I don't think Carno should be an animal that groups up... like at all

sinful cove
#

When more smalls are added at least for carno itll make it function more properly

#

Like galli, mono and pachy

#

Carno should have a max of like 3 in a group

hollow canyon
#

Yea

#

3 should be the high limit for it

tacit oriole
#

How about: healing can happen at either a faster or slower speed depending on how full your protein meter is (and healing adds a drain to same) . For herbivores this is usually going to be harder to keep topped up, while carnivores will get tons naturally

hollow canyon
#

I don't see any reason why more Carnos should be in a single pack

sinful cove
#

Or just how well you follow your diet

tacit oriole
#

Good herbivores going for high quality food won't have issues though

sinful cove
#

Instead of adding another reason to skip playing herbi

#

Rn theres clusters of like 10 carnos just terrorizing servers lol

hollow canyon
#

Idk about that, I feel like herbivores offer vastly more value atm.

#

Whenever I feel like going full PvP deathmatch style I just grow a Tenonto

sinful cove
#

Atm because a utah needs to eat a mount everest of food per sitting to not starve

#

People typically pick carnis for pvp, and they even pick carnis to chill because they have pteranodon now

hollow canyon
#

We will just have to wait and see how the diets update plays out, it might change the playing field quite a bit.

sinful cove
#

If you make herbivores generally shittier at recovering from conflicts it adds another reason to pick carni

hollow canyon
#

I pick carnivores for PvP but atm they are just vastly inferior at it than the herbivores. Tenonto offers the most bang for buck atm so it's my go to whenever I want some senseless slaughter

sinful cove
#

Im not too hyped for diets but i hope i get a pleasant surprise

hollow canyon
#

In general I wouldn't expect playerbase to ever pick herbivores more than the carnivores simply because the carnivores have the "cool-factor" to them. They also just offer a more interesting gameplay loop in general, but that doesn't change the fact that currently herbivores are just kind of better. The playerbase decision not to play them doesn't have much if anything to do with their viability. Dryo wasn't played at all when it was completely overpowered, simply because people aren't interested in playing this small, green gremlin that runs around squeaking at people.

#

I'd separate how good something is from how many people play it in this game because the two aren't really all that much connected with one another. Utah despite being a rather poor playable atm is still (not)surprisingly popular.

#

Animals such as Rex and Utah will always be popular even if they are at a dumpsterfire level of bad.

tacit oriole
#

No need to worry about being cannibalised by hungry packmates

#

They are just better in every way except maybe speed... But then you have safe rocks so eh

hollow canyon
#

Idk about finding packmates, I play solo whether I'm a herbivore or a carnivore. I typically just charge whichever carnivore I see first as a Tenonto and start a fight with them, if it's a Carno I sometimes have to encourage them to attack me against Utahs I just follow them around until they give up and decide to attack me.

#

And I'm not a good Tenonto, just to make that clear, it's definitely not a dinosaur for me, its playstyle just seems alien to me and it's clearly designed to play in a way I'm not comfortable with but I see a surprising amount of success with it nevertheless.

tacit oriole
#

Yeah, I'm a bad teno and I can strut around like I own the server

#

I play with a very good teno who has no hesitation going 1v4 vs carno

#

All you need is a rock or the right tree for recovering stamina and you can fight very safely

hollow canyon
#

I've ran 1v3 into carnos at times and survived - on other occassions I got 1v2ed though

tacit oriole
#

Good carno are in short supply atm

hollow canyon
#

I did also get soloed once but admittedly that was due to my 200 IQ play of chasing a Carno down into the river

#

newsflash: Tenonto doesn't do that well in the water

tacit oriole
#

I know someone else who is an amazing carno and they get super frustrated by dead weight packmates

#

They just follow them around and eat food

#

It used to be super easy to keep carno fed when you were good, you used to end up with body piles as long as you could stop deino from stealing

tacit oriole
#

Pond ramp, pond waterfall, many of the rocks around pond itself too

#

Caves around center

hollow canyon
#

I barely ever go to the pond, I typically just run at the first Carno I see around the centre as a Tenonto

sinful cove
#

Is carno even a mid tier

hollow canyon
#

It is, at least it's always been a mid tier

#

the idea that it's not is pretty new and came up a couple of months ago on the discord

#

It's always been the weakest mid tier but a mid tier nevertheless

#

It's definitely not "one of the biggest mid tiers in size" though

alpine plover
#

It’s the weakest mid tier but is a pretty large mid tier compared to stuff like cera and bary

wind anvil
alpine plover
#

Idk the new Utah pounce defiantly made it easier to fight off carnos but they made it a lot harder for carnos basically the fastest thing In the game to even get away from them

sinful cove
#

Corpse debuffs TI_Yikes

hollow canyon
#

Idk whether Cera and bary are mid tiers tbh, I mean... perhaps?

#

Cera was labeled a small carnivore on the roadmap though

sinful cove
#

This guy wants carnis to lose damage when theyre full? So punish them for eating if somebody attacks them after lol

tacit oriole
hollow canyon
#

Yes, it's supposed to be an anti-kfs system I suppose

#

all around a terrible idea

sinful cove
#

Corpse debuffs could be abused with either faction getting them

tacit oriole
#

Not anti-kfs, just anti-camping to give scavengers a chance to eat

#

There are ways to limit abuse, like having them only apply to rotted carrion which can't be dragged

sinful cove
#

Like if a few allos take down some young sub brachi theyre discouraged from defending their kill which would be annoying

tacit oriole
#

It shouldn't apply to anything capable of eating it in its current state

sinful cove
#

I could see like something stopping scavengers from eating a decaying body being toxic and pointless to do but i can see ways to abuse it otherwise

#

Like body droppers in fights to screw over herbis or people just harrassing packs who ate off a kill their worked hard for

tacit oriole
#

Again though, if you make it only apply once the body starts rotting

sinful cove
#

Juvies and smalls who intentionally die to apply a debuff while the fight is still going. Making it apply only to rotting bodies can probably be fine if anyone can move bodies, since i could still see it being used on nesters

tacit oriole
#

Yeah, nesting has to come with herbivore body dragging

sinful cove
#

Id totally get myself killed in some herbi/omni nesting site just to debuff them when my body goes rancid if i disliked the person at all

#

Im a toxic player

tacit oriole
#

Babies are going to die around nests anyway

#

And predators

#

They will need some way to manage corpses near nests even without debuffs

sinful cove
#

Yeah so i wanna be able to toss out dead babies for the compies and not have them stinking up my nest

tacit oriole
#

Exactly

#

Plus debuff ranges should scale on the body size

#

IRL example: you are at the beach. Dead seagull? You can ignore it easily. Dead rotting whale? Yeah don't want to be anywhere near that

#

Nobody will body drop a FG carno unless they are really, really desperate

tacit oriole
#

I've got a pretty robust suggestion for the system but it can wait until after people are used to U4 and compy cleanup

alpine plover
#

Perhaps for herbis the effect starts in the beginning they should move away. But for Carnivores they can stay by the body as long as they want. But the longer a body sit there the longer the emmision goes that could bring in uninvited guests

sinful cove
#

If a player already took the effort to deed themselves before logging off i see no reason to punish them upon logging back in

meager ice
#

It also punishes adult creatures, whom usually have no reason to afk in a tree for 30 mins

dim radish
#

Imagine getting punished for being good at the game because you can feed yourself before you log out

sinful cove
#

That would be frustrating indeed

tacit oriole
#

Imagine getting punished because you have a life and can't idle in TI 24/7

true ginkgo
#

@tidal obsidian ptera is much smaller and lighter than dryo, and is essentially an animated paper plane.

It's not some combat animal made for hunting things 50% larger than itself.

#

ptera eats fish and carrion.

crystal wharf
#

hmm
yes
balance ptera around a bug with fish spawning
10/10 idea

slim dragon
crystal wharf
#

even then
an adult ptera can easily fly from anywhere on the map, to anywhere on the map, in a relatively short amount of time no less

slim dragon
#

Yes
Hence the many downvotes I guess

tacit oriole
#

Look I miss the little stego killing machine too but just gotta accept ptera has no real combat value outside mixpacks

wide cosmos
#

Ptera is menace of babies and juvies. It one shots baby raptors...

tacit oriole
#

To be fair, so does hypsi

#

Not exactly a combat achievement

wide cosmos
#

Hypsies are harmless and you can fight them back unlike the "airforce"

barren oracle
#

hypsi is balanced to be able to defend itself from juvies and help large packs

wide cosmos
#

Just wish it's spit would be more of a cone area rather than snipe. Too hard to spit on anyone that's moving. Especially with the camera angle so low most of the time half the screen is covered by your own head making aiming too difficult

wild cove
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I mean an adult Hypsi can 1v3 a pack of baby raptors if you know what you're doing

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The problem is trying to aim its spit attack against most adult dinos is ass

barren oracle
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just not a hypsi god

sturdy stone
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I'd be happy with just some aim assist, maybe make it an option that could be toggled on and off if you so choose.
I adore hypsi and playing animals that aren't the top of the food chain, but even then it gets frustrating when your one form of defense is impossibly hard to use and damn near useless as a result

barren oracle
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hypsi is the best defensive dino in the game for herds

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what are you gonna do if ones defending a steg

sturdy stone
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A hypsi shouldn't be defending a stego to begin with lol
their whole shtick is that they're so small they should be relying on using them as meat shields, or completely abandoning them to hide

barren oracle
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nah

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they stand the best chance in herds

wild cove
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Symbiotic relationships are a thing in nature lol

barren oracle
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i want hypsis to friendly climb

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cause thats a giga chad move

wild cove
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Hell yeah

sturdy stone
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I'm aware, but it doesn't make sense for an animal the size of a toenail actively throwing themselves as well as wasting their spit at carnivores to defend stegos
they make more sense as animals that hide behind the more able bodied dinos

barren oracle
wild cove
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I mean, it makes perfect sense

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Smart blind hunters run away

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In nature, one of the biggest advantages is making something just inconvenient enough that a predator doesn't bother unless its desperate

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You don't have to make yourself an impossible target, just a more inconvenient one than the other guy

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Pretty sure there's a joke about hiking shoes and bears about this

sturdy stone
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For smaller carnivores I see it absolutely working, I mean for much larger ones like carnos

vocal minnow
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guys will can the utah pinn other dinos after patch 4

meager ice
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It can already pin other Dinos

karmic delta
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"how do we make utah packs easily op"

dim radish
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Ah yes, four Utahs that take about an hour to grow are supposed to maul a five hour behemoth with spikes to death because muh realism

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Balance >>> Realism

vocal minnow
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And and you cant pinn down for example stegos when they are at least 2 i mean i almost never see herbis alone sooo

dim radish
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Still. It would make solo stegs fodder. To a Utah that is so much smaller and weaker

vocal minnow
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i never see solo stegos hahahahha

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or any other dinos

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and its your fault when you stay alone

obtuse ocean
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yea, cus they are making it a cuddling up game now : ) skill is thrown out

slim dragon
vocal minnow
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hahahahaha

golden coral
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Balancing around herds/packs for survival is bad. That is not a viable counter. There's a difference between grouping up for more power, and grouping up to be viable and survive. And pinning is a questionable mechanic in the first place unless there's some kind of counter, we see this in utah vs utah for that matter.

obtuse ocean