balance-feedback-discussion

[tacit oriole]

But I'm eating lunch

[thin mantle]

Kinda, but I can clarify anything necessary

Yeah Erik I forget we have different timezones..... and it's night for me now so for you..... yeah bud go to bed 😄 It's been great having ya as always

So! Back to the aforementioned Stamina

[spare badger]

Ooo
A stamina discussion
I've got some time to kill

[tacit oriole]

So the two things I dislike about the current stamina system is:

1. Sprinting and sitting is the fastest form of transport
2. Regeneration of stamina mid-fight or immediately post-fight is too quick to give opportunistic hunters a chance to capitalise

[thin mantle]

Oh no xD

[spare badger]

Restaurant wait times are loooong

[tacit oriole]

I want tenos to be like I could kill this carno, but then I'd be at risk of getting bushes while resting

Same for carnos just yeeting themselves around the map

[thin mantle]

I honestly don't see an issue to be fixed there, carnos are faster so it's not like the teno can just kill it by chasing it down

[tacit oriole]

Same for wearing down stegos tbh

[tacit oriole]

But that's my dissertation

[thin mantle]

Prepares for long exposition
(so here's the thing)

[tacit oriole]

[thin mantle]

having stamina pools be increased in order to make resting longer/more dangerous reduces the amount of stamina management one must do during a fight. For some creatures stamina management is vital for either their own survival (moreso herbis) or for effectively hunting a given target (moreso carnis). Having values in place that reduce that management system delegitimizes the fighting tactics of many dinos in game currently, as well as future dinos added to the game. However, the current values are pretty good and actually adds incentive to dodging stamina draining attacks to wear an animal down over time. This is the same for carnivores that rely on sprinting to get hits in (currently all carnivores besides deino).

[tacit oriole]

Ah ok, to be clear: not proposing increasing pools, only decreasing regen rates

I think the pool sizes are

[thin mantle]

Oh no, my treatment will thus be much harsher...... you have been warned

[tacit oriole]

Or actually, even more specifically, proposing nerfing the sit bonus

[tacit oriole]

Oh my... Ok hit me chief

[thin mantle]

I'm gonna do a seperate message then, because my og 4 paragraphs was running on a false premise 😭

[tacit oriole]

Haha still a good mini disposition, and I agree fwiw

[spare badger]

[tacit oriole]

While the burn is still cooking, I'd like to add I see stamina as akin to mana in games like Diablo

[spare badger]

That
Makes sense

[thin mantle]

I'd like to focus on Utah in particular. Utah is all about stamina management, it's incredibly dependent on using just the right amount of stamina in a pounce in order to apply as much damage/bleed as possible, then run off to regain it. If the rates of stamina regeneration were decreased then that utah would be out of the fight doing absolutely nothing for that much longer, the process wouldn't be 'dangerous' but simply arduous and time consuming, substantially slowing the pace of the engagement and running the risk of becoming "boring" (as subjective as that is). I wouldn't agree that this is a very good way to add something substantive to the game, because many carnivores rely on stamina usage to complete literally any task. Some of which need to drain all or almost all stam just to be effective in any way. Plus Utah specifically is made of porcelain and thus relies on dodging to survive during fights. The same applies to when it is being chased, the only advantage it really has is mobility. So why would increasing the amount of time it takes to regain stamina positively impact the gameplay?

[tacit oriole]

Fair, point to Fluff

[thin mantle]

An attempt was made, I hope it was a good one

[tacit oriole]

But a rebuttal: if stamina regen was lower, Utah would be more likely to find prey with low stamina, and wouldn't be so reliant on multiple pounce cycles

However it would potentially limit their sustained attrition power

[thin mantle]

Yes that is true, however that would functionally change nothing. Kinda like how the speed nerf was applied universally as to not give any creature an advantage over another post nerf

[tacit oriole]

Well, the universal speed nerf was still a buff to carno... But yeah

[thin mantle]

The only substantive change that would be made is a longer wait time on stamina.

[thin mantle]

Technically true, but there is still a rough parallel

[tacit oriole]

The reason I'm attached to it for Utah is because I feel like Utahs whole MO is finding weakened/tired/stressed targets and finishing them off

[thin mantle]

Universally reducing stamina regen rates only limits the amount of things that can be done by the player in a certain amount of time, basically slowing the gameplay.

[tacit oriole]

And I also think most dinos go from totally exhausted to fighting fit too quickly for them to get that chance

[thin mantle]

It's a game in which days pass in 30 minutes so I don't see a problem with the recovery speed, plus that isn't what utahs do

Utahs are designed to hunt targets much larger than they are

Frail/weak/exhausted are just general hunting preferences of carnivores

[tacit oriole]

Perhaps, but with the current bleed system they get massive bonuses to anything that isn't in tip-top shape

[thin mantle]

And there is no way of knowing how much stamina a creatures has at any given moment outside of literally watching every action they take that requires stamina

[tacit oriole]

Which leads me to believe that they are designed to hunt hungry/tired/injured dinos

[ocean wagon]

they are

[thin mantle]

Everything is, plus balancing a dino around hunting targets that are under certain status effects is a pretty questionable way to balance a dino

[spare badger]

A new challenger has appeared!

[ocean wagon]

this

[golden coral]

I'll just point out, maybe we should save on what we think x or y animal is designed for, and let the devs balance and show us. As this patch has demonstrated with the utah changes.

And yes, I should sleep, but I wanted to see what this looks like from the outside as it were :p

[spare badger]

Diets will hopefully tell us more

[thin mantle]

Well then discussions wouldn't be necessary and all of this wouldn't be happening. Even if this discussion produces nothing real in game is inconsequential to me

I enjoy it nonetheless, and I find functionality consensus cathartic c:

[golden coral]

You could always discuss theoretics or what you'd personally prefer. Which is always fun, though you might get into trouble with the green ones again! Also I agree with you, hunting the "weak" should be preferable for every carnivore, and not something only x or y does. Sure, some can be better at it, or better at finding said weaknesses, but it should still be more common than not for every hunter really.

[thin mantle]

Oh I could care less what the green people think about me, cuz theoretics is all we are talking about and there isn't anything regarding those they have more authority on than I do >:)

And yeah dinos should be balanced around fighting other dinos regardless of status effects. Typically combat balancing is organized between the two combatants at equal stats (equal as in they are both at their full capabilites)

[tacit oriole]

I really enjoy having an argument with a logical informed person. Almost always learn something from it

[thin mantle]

Yeah testing your own beliefs is the best way to reinforce them, and if you find one of your opinions faulty then you can alter accordingly

God the longer this goes on the more I sound like a Thesaurus so i'm sorry about that

[tacit oriole]

Like I only went to the depths of bleed testing I did because Erik was like "dude, utahs aren't as trash ad you think they are. Trust me"

And heaps fell out of that

[golden coral]

Just so!

[golden coral]

Glad to be of assistance!

[tacit oriole]

I'd still also like to see the scent system reworked, including the ability to track dinos over significantly longer distamces

Perhaps even being able to tell if tracks were left by an injured dino

[spare badger]

Maybe that could be up to player skill
Like there are only small differences only a skilled player can spot type of thing

[tacit oriole]

That was what my suggestion was about, making the differences subtle but available of you knew what you were looking for

Having them fade out over time, slight colour differences between herbivores and carnivores, having left foot/right foot look slightly different if they are limping, maybe a little more red tinged if they are injured

Having sitting down leave a scent behind as well that lasts even longer

So maybe you pick up a trail only because they layed down for a while in a visible spot

[ocean wagon]

what if

pre-nerf utah

was just utah

with elder utah stats

[tacit oriole]

🤯

[sly pilot]

utah is normally balanced, only stamina and bleeding damage worries me

[sinful cove]

Yes lets make the 8 ton crocodile take barely longer to grow than a 1.8 ton small game ambusher that gets oneshot by its special attack

[naive drum]

Deino being easier to grow will only exacerbate the crocodile infested rivers

[true ginkgo]

Nice seeing those comments from Hypno in here, as it gives an idea of what the vision for the game is.

Interesting that everyone is suggesting utah agility buffs, but not dryo and hispy. They were both equally hard hit by the high inertia.

[alpine plover]

Nobody plays them so

[true ginkgo]

Dryo my beloved.

[oak wind]

Dryo and Ptera is what I played the most on evrima

[wild cove]

Waves in Hypsi main

Hypsi needs some love on the intertia bit as well but if you actually play it a lot, its doable at the moment if you're skilled at juking and using the environment

Having said that

Hypsi is only really able to survive if you have some skill because of its size but mostly because Carno and Utah turn inertia are also ass right now

When Utah turn inertia is fixed, its going to be a different story

also lot of crocs that like to adopt Hypsi for w/e reason, if you're not spitting in their face

Hypsi is actually in a pretty good spot vs baby utah though as long as a sub/adult isn't around to one-shot kill you

Which it should be so it can defend its nests in U5+ against similar sized dinos threatening their nests

[barren oracle]

@sly pilot if utah took tree stun damage

it would die in 10 pounces

[tacit oriole]

Dryo just needs its dodge fixed. Inertia is a secondary issue. Hypsi... hypsi is a meme

Dryo also doesn't need to hunt to survive

[tacit oriole]

lol my last baby utah died to a hypsi 'cos I forgot how useless baby utahs are now

[tender sundial]

guys please can someone help me i got stuck on a rock on the edge of a fall on the ocean and im an adult rex please i dont wanna loose my rexo :<

wow

i died

wow

thanks isle

frekin 6 hours for nothing

[modest carbon]

Rip legacy

[barren oracle]

legacy is cringe

[thin mantle]

Uhhh, this is #balance-feedback-discussion so this wouldn’t be the right tab for that

[tender sundial]

i just want to buy a new grown rexo

but when i go on extras in the isle i cant pick any of the 2

like "credits" or "gallery"

[thin mantle]

You cannot buy dinos outside of private discord currency’s

You have to grow it

[hallow spire]

[barren oracle]

this has been going on for 5 minutes now

proves utahs are good for something

also steg died lmao

[hallow spire]

wow lol

[barren oracle]

utahs can take on stegs easy

just takes patience

as you can see 1 of de utahs were too risky

[true ginkgo]

Good utahs can take a stego easily with patience and coordination.

Even a full pack of 'meh' utahs with no coordination can still beat a stego with heavy losses.

Which is how it should be.

[barren oracle]

steg apex tho

and they cant win against carnos

[primal dove]

problem is u can be as good as u want but u still can be hit while dismounting

otherwise the matchup is "fine"

[ocean wagon]

Yeah my only concern with stego vs Utah match up is not being able to safely dismount

[hallow spire]

same if the dismount problem went away (and not being able to pounce something thats in shallow water) the matchup would be 100% fine

[wide cosmos]

Only if the steggo doesn't know how to buck, use trees and terrain and is absolute bot of a player. Also the steggo in the picture doesn't look like full adult

[wide cosmos]

That's not true unless you are fighting sub steggo. Only time Utah pack can take down an adult steggo is if the steggo player is clueless, aka no bucking and not using terain.

[ocean wagon]

@vocal minnow with the exception of hypsi, everything in game is meant to deal with Utah rather well

[golden coral]

No, it is true. You can fight an adult stego, even if it bucks. Terrain is a bit trickier, but still. It doesn't have to be a substego.

[vocal minnow]

Oh yeah @ocean wagon my fault

[golden coral]

Buck does not by any means prevent you from hunting the stego, if the stego does not tree-hug or otherwise use water bug or similar, bucking will not save it if the utahs know what they're doing. 4-5+ can and will kill an adult stego in the "open", given time and effort and not.. well, messing up pouncing.

[ocean wagon]

On the side note of stego, why do their Juvi stages do so much damage. Their spikes are just little dull nubs

[wide cosmos]

I bet adult steggo could just stand in shallow water and logout from the game before Utah pack could kill it. There's so many counters to pounce and stegos have so much hp/blood. It's only one of anecdotal best case scenario where Utah pack can kill a steggo.

[golden coral]

Probably because they can't evade for shit :p But yeah, should be more CC and less damage, much less bleed.

[ocean wagon]

Even so

Juvi stegos should be an easy meal for carnivores bigger than it

[golden coral]

Yes, if it stands in shallow water it get's stupid. No one here thinks that bug is fine or should remain. But we don't also balance according to bugs or similar, so there is that.

[ocean wagon]

It 2-3 shotting a Utah seems.....extreme

[golden coral]

They should. I would rather we get a quad "sneak" and similar, for juvies in general, not just stego. So you can be out and about without leaving a gps trail to your location :p Though bigger in size doesn't neccesarily equate power, so it's a little variable to be fair.

[barren oracle]

a its a full adult

also free grow server so no consquences

[ocean wagon]

Well the point of their juvi stage is to literally stay hidden being theyre super vulnerable

Stego by default has pretty good camo

[golden coral]

Yes and no. Staying hidden isn't really fun gameplay, I'd rather all juvies be out and about, and either be in "better" biomes in some ways or otherwise have ways to handle being hunted and so beyond "don't get seen ever"

Especially with diets forcing everyone out and about

[barren oracle]

juvies are fradgile

hence nesting

and hiding

[golden coral]

Well, that'd be hatchlings really, juvies should be more independent

I'd be fine with hatchling stage and nesting and all, but you won't always be nested, so as a fresh "spawn" you should be able to be a bit more independent

Like juvie utahs climbing or stuff

[ocean wagon]

Im going off based on its model, it shouldn't be taking on utahs with nubs. That's like someone trying to stab you with the end of a broom stick

[barren oracle]

a juvie can fight a juvie

but its not meant to be able to fight back

[golden coral]

Agreed. Nerf damage, and bleed more importantly. Add a bit of CC instead perhaps. There are obviously ways to work with it and different things to do. It's more so that being spotted = death unless shown mercy, isn't really fun, no matter growth stage or anything. Viable means you need to have a way out, somehow.

[barren oracle]

juvies are for scanvenging

[golden coral]

That's fine. Hence maybe different biomes a bit, where you're more likely to fight things your size and less running into things that'll just walk all over you.

[ocean wagon]

Yeah I can agree to that

[golden coral]

Nah, I don't think juvies should just scavenge, sure they can, but even a juvie utah should want to start hunting something.

Hatchlings are fine being fed and cared for, but there's that and there's spawning in on your own

[barren oracle]

i mean diets will make that possible

[golden coral]

Should not be as "bad" as each others I don't think

[barren oracle]

cause juvies will be going to fufil theirs

and juvie carnivores will do the same by going to the area a herbi does

[golden coral]

True, we'll see how diets change stuff

[barren oracle]

it will make a little bit variety

cant wait for update 4

but we gotta wait a bit more -_-

[golden coral]

No more bushcamping as the best strategy to grow a herbi :p

[ocean wagon]

Also I would like to point out though, most species (especially reptiles) who start life out without the protection of their parents, do typically go with the "stay hidden and dont get spotted" survival tactic

[barren oracle]

diets will be nice

hopefully some buffs for hatchlings come with em tbh

like speed or stam

[golden coral]

They do. And it's fine, as long as it involves a bit of moving around, and the ability to stay hidden on the move. Hence my wish for a quad sneak. As a dryo or utah you can just go "hm.. did I hear something.. time to sneak for a bit"

But you can't do that as quad

But yeah, it's more so when hidden becomes the whole "stay in bush forever" it gets bad

[barren oracle]

i mean trotting is slower and quieter

[wide cosmos]

We've done testing with our pack. It is possible to take down adult steggo if it only trots around in the open and swings his tail. The moment steg starts using terain it becomes unkikllable. All I'm saying is that steggo is not a viable game for Utah pack, same as Deino

[golden coral]

It is. But it leaves the same massive "gps" scent trail.

[barren oracle]

you just bleed it out

[golden coral]

So just go sniff, and follow the glowing line to the target

[barren oracle]

i mean wallowing

[ocean wagon]

Well diets would force it to move around and forage for food. They just have to stay quiet in a bush whenever they aren't looking for food. And this should only be viable for juvi stage. As they reach into subadult and their adult stages, I do think that their food demand should be a bit harsher which actually forces them to migrate and take longer journeys

[golden coral]

Yes, which means you need to find spots for that, and hope no deino or otherwise is seeing you out in the open. And if you're found otherwise, you're screwed. Unlike the bipeds that can crouch.

[golden coral]

Sounds more or less okay I think.

[ocean wagon]

This also tied back with stego by default having really good camo

[golden coral]

It's mostly the lack of "crouch" that I wish would change

[wide cosmos]

Lol... not sure if sarcasm

[golden coral]

Utah or dryo = crouch and sneak away, you're untrackable :p

[ocean wagon]

As an adult they don't really need it l, but as a juvi/hatching im assuming they'd rely on it when they're sitting in a bush

[golden coral]

Teno or stego = nothing to do

Exchange "sitting in bush" for "moving through bushes" and we're good :p

[barren oracle]

nah its true

just camp water

and bleed it

[ocean wagon]

👍

[wide cosmos]

Your entire pack will either die from steggo or starvation before it bleeds out... thats what happened last time we tried to bleed out a steggo that actually used the terrain.

[barren oracle]

have you seen the bleed damage

and who starves as utah

its pretty easy to find a dryo ai

[wide cosmos]

Ok, now I'm convinced you are playing a different game

[barren oracle]

wdym bro

[hallow spire]

anything is possible lol

[barren oracle]

just spawn north

[golden coral]

Game experience can vary a fair amount

So it's perfectly possible that both their claims are accurate

[wide cosmos]

Adult dryo give about 20%food to an adult Utah. Now imagine pack of atleast 6 adults

[hallow spire]

a adult dryo should at least give 40-50 to a adult utah

[barren oracle]

i play far too much evrima

so yeah probably

[ocean wagon]

Id say 70% tbh

Dryos are damn near the same size

[hallow spire]

tru

[wide cosmos]

I thinknit should fully feed an adult Utah, but that's not the case, hunting dryos as Utah is only viable if you are solo or growing. If you try to survive off dryos as a pack you won't last

[hallow spire]

agreed

[ocean wagon]

A dryo should honestly fill a solo utah up, a Utah is not eating an entire dryo and saying "i still have room for dessert"

[wide cosmos]

Back on topic, in the current state of the game, hunting steggos as a pack of utahs is not an option.

[onyx trellis]

First time playing since last update. Reading from patch notes that ptera health and damage have been reduced made me laugh. Anything can already one hit or atleast kill faster than ptera can take off ground. And killing anything with ptera was damn challenging so i guess now its even worse?

[wide cosmos]

Everyone's damage and HP been rebalanced. If pteras kept 50 bite force it would be as strong as adult Utah currently

[dawn falcon]

You do have a point thunder

[true ginkgo]

It’s almost like ptera is an absolutely tiny scavenger made of tissue paper. And not an animal built for combat.

[dawn falcon]

Brings me back to when Ptera could kill full stegos due to the hit boxes and damage

[golden coral]

@vocal minnow Pouncing is still doing it's job, utah isn't half as trash as you make it out to be. And as far as I know, more pouncers at the same time does increase the cost of bucking, so there is that. You're not supposed to go for headbites, but pounces and do so over time. That means more than one wave of pouncing. You're an attrition hunter now, that does mean the first attacks aren't going to feel like much, but it stacks up overtime. And if bucking isn't the "hard counter" to pouncing, then you'll just see more tree-hugging. Better to fix those and keep bucking as the primary go to to survive being pounced, as it should be. As long as you get off in time, you can still continue the hunt after all.

[true ginkgo]

We don’t want bob flyers

[dawn falcon]

Head biting should be like the last resort, or if you have to fight species of the same tier or a little higher.

[golden coral]

Headbiting, or biting in general, should be for keeping the bleed up, vs big prey at least. For small prey, sure biting can be main damage, since small prey could be harder to land a pounce on obviously.

[wide cosmos]

Not saying Utah is trash. But Utah is not a big game pack hunter as some people are trying to make it look, at least not in the current state of the game. Bucking cost almost no stamina, and even if you have 4 utahs on you the stamina increase is barely noticeable, not enough to make any difference. I know how to hunt with the Utah and bites are only to keep the bleed going while pounce is the main tool in hunting the bigger game. If you had more experience as a Utah you would understand that steggo is virtually unkillable assuming similar skill levels from a steggo and the pack.

[spare badger]

Well, using any stamina in a fight, especially for a herbivore is super dangerous, cause they need Stam for any of their good attacks

And bleed reduces it's regen too

Maybe giving Utah a little more Stam would help

[golden coral]

It is a large game hunter though. Maybe not as effective as it as you'd like to be (though I think it's plenty effective enough), but it's designed as one. Bucking will eventually run out if you just keep cycling, and then there's nothing to do. And that's what attrition means. You need to keep it over time, not just all pounce once, get bucked off and call it a day. Assuming the stego stands in the open and doesn't abuse water bug or tree-hugging, 4-5 utahs will kill it, as long as they don't mess up and get caught pouncing.

And I was responding to the feedback to be fair, I didn't say you thought utah was trash or similar :p

[dawn falcon]

That makes more sense. Agreed

[wide cosmos]

If fights took place in an open desert with no rocks trees or water that would be the case, but in reality all herbies need to do is park themselves against any object or water and Utah packs can't do nothing to them

[golden coral]

Yes and we all know the water bug is stupid.

But the thing is, I don't argue balance from a bug

[spare badger]

The trees can be worked around July a good utah

[golden coral]

The trees/rocks are more questionable, I do want interaction with the envrionment, but I agree just standing there hugging a tree is a bit.. stupid

[spare badger]

Cause movement speed is slowed when your pounced

[golden coral]

I want bucking to be the best/primary go-to vs pouncing, and trees/rocks more so for cutting of attack vectors and rubbing off utahs in a run/similar

[spare badger]

I rely on stuffing out approaches of pounce, cause teno has enough mobility. Stego on the other hand

[wide cosmos]

Problem is if you take away all the damage from Utah and only leave pounce which is very unreliable it will make the dino not viable

[golden coral]

Standing next to a river to prevent pounce access to one side = fine. Standing in shallow river to make pouncing bug out = not fine.

[barren oracle]

i hate the whole tier thing tbh

[golden coral]

But it isn't so unreliable, not from the test I've seen and been part of. And the utah is viable, most certainly. You can survive as one I'm pretty sure at least.

[wide cosmos]

It is viable but far from what it's intended by devs

[true ginkgo]

tfw people posting JWE fights. Where one velo kills all hadrosaurs easy.

[spare badger]

I hate that
Wish they could fight back

[true ginkgo]

Tiers arn't official. They're fan categories grouping animals by mass and growth times.

[spare badger]

And not only iguanodon

[hallow spire]

lol he was using it as an example of poucning weighing down prey if enough utahs pounce it the vid wasnt a good example but i see where he was going with it

[barren oracle]

yeah

but i hate that their used in evrima

[golden coral]

Well, viable is viable. But we'll see, no doubt things will be finetuned. I'm not saying utah is perfect right now, but I think the issues lies more in bugs/similar than just "bleed weak/pounce trash" you know? :p

[barren oracle]

everythings viable

[golden coral]

I trust you get my point here. I think the bigger issues we're seeing from the balance patch is more important to look at first

[true ginkgo]

Tiers arn't a viability measurment. They never have been.

[golden coral]

Before we claim something isn't working out or isn't viable

[spare badger]

They are just us trying to categorize dinos

[golden coral]

Better to fix the water pounce bug than just "adjust" the pounce to counter for it

[alpine plover]

But you cant pounce herbis when they are staying together?????

[true ginkgo]

A 'small tier' is just as viable as a 'large tier'.

[alpine plover]

So hoe are going to do damage?

[golden coral]

So you hunt the solo ones? Or the smaller group if it's like two tenos vs 6-7 utahs. You'd not be able to pounce a pair of rexes or gigas either I doubt.

[alpine plover]

How

[wide cosmos]

You can, if you smart

[hallow spire]

bleed them out

[alpine plover]

Doesnt work at all

[dawn falcon]

Utah is designed to take down big game with it’s pounce by racking up bleed with 2 or more individuals, and continuing to push harder in order to bleed out the game. Equipped with their agility and stamina, they’re more than capable of dodging attacks and quickly returning fire. The Utahraptor uses teamwork to it’s advantage, bringing down game far larger than most creatures could afford to take out. Even when the prey is huddled together, the pack will target a specific individual and pounce them.

[golden coral]

Especially now with hunger for herbis increased too, I'm pretty sure herbis are less friendly to each other

[dawn falcon]

This is how I see it

[true ginkgo]

viability isn't about the ability to fight. it's about the ability to survive (not including afk in bush, as that's not playing)

[golden coral]

Rumor has it that tenos and stegos are at war :p

[hallow spire]

it does, utah isnt supposed to be a big damage dealing dino

[alpine plover]

Everyone herbi is in a group so how will it work

[alpine plover]

I think you have never played as utah

[wide cosmos]

Devs themselves said Utah is intended to be big game pack hunters

[dawn falcon]

Have you

[hallow spire]

i have lol i usually play that the most

[dawn falcon]

I think we all have lol

[golden coral]

Yes. The problem here is that there's so much differing opinions in how many pounces it should take/how fast it should go. Even if the prey bucks, just.. keep at it, is my opinion on it. Everything but carno, you're in control of the engagement of, and carnos are well, meant to hunt you so.

So it's fine to take it over time, that teno, much less stego, ain't gonna run away on you, unless you let it

[hallow spire]

ik im saying its not supposed to do big damage but its supposed to do a lot of bleed

[wide cosmos]

Stego can starve out entire pack of Utah while he can graze before Utah can kill it

[alpine plover]

Yeah but he buck and that is the reason why you cant pounce

[golden coral]

And that's a hunger drain issue, but if it's grazing, just kill it

Trust me, low food = bad bleed

[alpine plover]

Your stamina is gone so fast

[golden coral]

You also need to keep in mind you need to hunt while you're full, not wait until later :p

[true ginkgo]

Except utahs can already hunt big game. A max pack of average utahs with no coordination still wins vs a stego most of the time, with big losses.

And hopefully the no water pounce and the fern dance exploits get patched.

[hallow spire]

what? u can just dismount and go recover ur stam while the rest of ur pack distracts it

[golden coral]

The moment you no longer have a readily available corpse, the hunt is on

[dawn falcon]

Indeed. I’d say the bigger the prey, the longer it should last. A teno could go for 5 minutes to maybe 8, while a carno is a lot higher due to SPECIALIZING in dealing with Utah’s and other smalls, and then the larger, the longer.

But why do people want a prey like stego to take 5-10 minutes

Wtf

[alpine plover]

Hahaha try this in the chat while you are hunting

[wide cosmos]

Noooooo, I can tell you from experience with coordinated pack

[alpine plover]

Not gonna work

[golden coral]

More so that carno could go as fast as teno, being similar sized, just much more dangerous cause it can dictate the pace a bit as well, unlike the teno. At least that's to me why carno is more dangerous. A teno can not chase you down as easily as a carno can.

[hallow spire]

u dont gotta type it its simple lol

[true ginkgo]

Carno vs utah should just be nasty all around. With lots of death and no one lasting long.

Both are specialised to kill each other.

[hallow spire]

agreed

[golden coral]

You can talk it out before starting the hunt? :p

[alpine plover]

3/4 dont even listen

[dawn falcon]

In carnos kit it’s got enough weapons to go ham on a Utah pack.

[golden coral]

Yes :p Just high risk/high reward. You win, you remove a severe danger and get food :p

[true ginkgo]

You need a better pack. As I suck, but I've been on the winning side as utah.

[wide cosmos]

Utah pack vs carno pack, Utahs will loose all the time with Noone dying on carno side

[alpine plover]

I often tried to group hunt befote the update its hard to find good players to communicate with

[golden coral]

Find better packmates!

[dawn falcon]

So honestly, if something specializes in killing you, you aren’t going to have a good time fighting it

[hallow spire]

especially with that fast ass alt bite they got now (which should be slower) it can kill utahs with its bite even better

[alpine plover]

@hallow spire yeah

[dawn falcon]

But honestly, I always love those 4 other Utah’s with me in a pack, and even without talking, our coordination is amazing.

[alpine plover]

That makes no sense

[wide cosmos]

Yeah I don't believe you. I'll post videos from out hunts as evidence

[true ginkgo]

The alt bite is too fast, and the charge is way too powerful imo.

The charge should be a knockdown, with another bite needed to kill. Not instant kill. Same with tenoto tail slam.

Those abilities power should be in their stun and knockdown. Not their raw damage.

[hallow spire]

[dawn falcon]

Not to mention having to finish off the Utah after a charge distracts the carno

Which means there’s an opening for a pounce

[golden coral]

Meanwhile I've been in hunts and seen the opposite of what you claim. So.. I don't know, maybe it's down to how the utahs play/the stego play.

[wide cosmos]

If you get hit by a charge as a Utah you deserve to die, also I don't believe charge should be oneshoting utahs

[hallow spire]

only thing i see utah needing is a fix on the shallow water bug and better agility

[golden coral]

Or opening to escape if that's the better option, but yes. Having to follow up the tailslam or charge with another attack would probably help there.

[alpine plover]

And staminaaaa

[dawn falcon]

Can’t wait for inertia to finally be customized for every Dino and not have the same inertia

[wide cosmos]

You can't use bot steggos that don't know how to play as an example

[hallow spire]

yea maybe a better stam regen time

[alpine plover]

Yep

[golden coral]

You can't use bot utahs that don't know how to play as example either.

[true ginkgo]

I mean even with knockdown + one bite, the utah is absolutely dead. It just opens up a chance to save them as a packmate.

It also feels more satisfying smacking them down and then turning round for the finisher, instead of instant ragdoll.

[dawn falcon]

Oh god here we go with the “you’re probably a bad stego” shit

That goes nowhere

I could say maybe you’re a bad Utah dying to a good stego

Or someone could say you’re a bad stego dying to a good Utah

It goes nowhere

[wide cosmos]

I'm always trying to. Compare equal skill matches. I can find videos of dryo taking down a carno. That doesn't mean carnos are weak and dryos are op

[alpine plover]

Guys the funniest thing is stego has almost the same bite force as utah ahahah

[true ginkgo]

Tenoto should be the ideal prey for a small group of ~3 utahs imo. It's larger than them, but not too large. And irl utahs hunted several species of iguanadont.

[hallow spire]

indeed

[golden coral]

Which is why the argument is bad. Because you can't really find "equal skill" very easily. How do you even measure that? Who decides what that skill level is and how to compare different playables that demand different things?

[wide cosmos]

Agree, what's the point of the knockdown mechanics of you just one-shot the target

[golden coral]

And so on. It's just not a solid argument.

[hallow spire]

plus they were the first dinos when evrima first came out its only right that teno is utahs ideal food

[golden coral]

Want to know something funnier? Before the balance patch, they had the same bite force of 130, with teno having 110.

[alpine plover]

Hahahahahaha

Herbis and carnivores same bite force ufffff

[golden coral]

Yes. 2 utahs if you're good and the teno rather bad, 3 on average, 4 if you're not that good and the teno is good.

[wide cosmos]

Big difference is that herbies don't cause bleed when they bite

[hallow spire]

true

[alpine plover]

Yeah i know but big blood damage isnt a thing right now

Its kinds like the more damage you take the more you bleed

For example carno bite

What do you guys think about the idea in balance feedback from me

[wide cosmos]

But that's what you are doing you are comparing someone that doesn't know game mechanics dieing to someone that does and using the dinos to make the point But the deciding factor was the skill. It's the same as if pack of pteras killed afk stego therefore pteras are viable big game hunters

[golden coral]

Except some of the game mechanics you're talking about is either bugs, or now shown for being more of an issue than they should be and as such will be worked on. Something you're not taking into account.

[hallow spire]

i like it

[dawn falcon]

Actually

But fact

[golden coral]

If you want to compare skill. Then have the stego in open plains, using only attacks + bucking. Utahs the same, using their attacks and pounce and all that.

[dawn falcon]

Utah is intended to be the FIRST bleeder dino of Evrima

[golden coral]

See how it goes with 8 utahs vs a solo stego.

[wide cosmos]

Some... even if I didn't mention them the point would still stand

[golden coral]

Not really because if we're talking raw skill, then 4-5 utahs can take a stego with current mechanics and bleed and all. Will it take some time, yes. But it's doable.

[wide cosmos]

Done it with 6 utahs and 80% stego, utahs died

I was the steggo

[golden coral]

And I've seen it done with 4 utahs vs adult stego, stego and 3 utahs died.

So then we're back to asking who's showing or not showing skill. I've seen it done with 6-7 utahs, stego died again, with most of the utahs alive. I think one or two died at most.

[wide cosmos]

It's the same as saying 8 dryos killing a steggo is double but would take time

Double doesn't mean anything

[golden coral]

Yes? And that's not a problem

If it is doable, it is

That's.. the entire point of it

[wide cosmos]

It has to be viable not doible

[golden coral]

Viable just means you can survive every encounter

Doable means you can achieve something

[alpine plover]

I mean you dont want to die in the fight so

[golden coral]

And it is both doable to hunt stegos and viable to interact with them as utahs as it stands.

[wide cosmos]

Utah was intended to be big game pack hunter, if it's not viable to hunt steggos then there's the problem

[dawn falcon]

Added something else with the guys feedback

[golden coral]

It has nothing to do with viable. But it is doable, maybe not as easy as you'd like it to be, but it can be done successfully. With more or less ease. Beyond that, then we can argue forever on how easy or hard it should be and get nowhere.. :p

[meager ice]

Stegos are easier IMO to hunt than a carno or teno, but if they are up against a tree or something you might as well walk away

[hallow spire]

AGREED

[alpine plover]

@dawn falcon that would be a game changer

[true ginkgo]

'big game' to utah is anything above utah. tenoto is 'big game' to it.

You don't have to jump up to the most powerful thing on the entire roster and say if you can't beat it it's busted.

[alpine plover]

Or maybe the more utahs the more stamina you need to buck or walk

[golden coral]

@dawn falconThen you'd have to disable slots. Both to allow for more spots, and to make it properly difficult to achieve that many utahs on at the same time.

But the idea itself isn't bad, and having utahs on you should have some effect

[true ginkgo]

The main way stego can win currently is by abusing unintended behaviour. You don't buff utah to fix that.

You fix the bugs instead.

[wide cosmos]

I can apply the same logic to any dinosaur and call it a day. Dryo vs Deino. Ptera vs carno. All of them is doible

[dawn falcon]

Yeah

[hallow spire]

honestly if u manage to get pounced by like 4 utahs as a carno or teno u need to work on ur skills lol

[dawn falcon]

You shouldn’t have to hold hands with the game and have it send you to the side of the Dino you pounced, even when you mistakenly pounced it’s head or tail.

[golden coral]

That is a thing. The more utahs on, the more the bucking cost.

[dawn falcon]

Plus

Pouncing the head of say a carno, should knock you to the ground.

[wide cosmos]

Like I said before that makes no difference. Try to test it for yourself

[alpine plover]

And the less stamina goes away from the utah

[golden coral]

I don't know. I can test, or ask someone I know to test. I just know that a devblog stated it a good while back. I'm just going on official information.

[golden coral]

I don't think that's part of it. Just that it costs more for the bucker. But maybe someone can test that too.

[golden coral]

Pounce thagomizer = die. Pounce tail/head, get knocked down like if you were bucked off. For pretty much all critters. Pounce ceratopsid head = die. Pounce kentro = die (more or less :p)

[hallow spire]

my question is how the hell is anybody gonna kill a kentro lol

[meager ice]

Venom maybe?

[dawn falcon]

Yeah

[dawn falcon]

Bilbo made a good point

Basically

The ones with venom can hunt Kentro easier

[true ginkgo]

There might be two pounce spots on it looking at it.

Other than that, good luck.

[dawn falcon]

Troodon being the MAIN threat to Kentro

Since

It’s so small it can avoid the spikes

And apply the venom

[golden coral]

Small, fast. Headshots or inbetween shoulder and tail. Mono, rugops, similar sized animals. Troodon with venom. Maybe a solo utah headbiting. Since kentro is small and therefor will die a lot faster than a stego, even with lower biteforces and all.

[dawn falcon]

Also

Just some valuable information

[hallow spire]

ah yes my troodons

[dawn falcon]

From the size chart, Kentro is 1200 tons, which means it has that much hp

[golden coral]

Could also give one of those very good bleed resist so they can "brawl" with the kentro :p

[dawn falcon]

So it has 400 less hp technically

[golden coral]

Like I said, kentro is small xD

[true ginkgo]

1200 tons

[dawn falcon]

Wait

Shit

Not THAT HIGH

Lmao

1200kg

[true ginkgo]

utah mains still want to solo it.

[hallow spire]

wont be able to

[golden coral]

If kentro also gets the extra head multiplier like stego has, you'd headshot it in 10 bites with current utah damage. More or less.

[alpine plover]

Noo way i killed 4 carnos as teno

[golden coral]

I could see kentro being soloable by a utah, at the very least something they'd take in pairs

[hallow spire]

teno is carno counter

[golden coral]

It's not as vicious or capable of delivering punishment actively as a teno is

[alpine plover]

Yep but not in open field

[true ginkgo]

I'm guessing that kentro will be similar level to carno and tenoto.

[hallow spire]

yep

[golden coral]

Probs a little less offensively scary, but more passive defense

So more so difficult to "get to", but not as much of a "I will beat the everliving shit out of you" as teno is

[hallow spire]

the exact opposite of a pachy lol

[golden coral]

Pretty much. Sure, you have shoulder checks (or should have), and tailswipes and all, but you're still a stegosaurian, and they don't really do offense very well. So I'm fine with it being more on the defensive than a teno, and just .. tricky to get to I suppose. Since misaiming can be quite lethal xD

Pachy will be angry all the time. You even look at em wrong, and they'll beat you up :p

[meager ice]

I hope pachy can break carno legs

[hallow spire]

only bad thing i see going on with pachy is it mixpacking with carnis (fracture another herbis leg then let the carnis kill it)

[meager ice]

Otherwise it might just be dunked on 24/7

[true ginkgo]

Currently stegos most powerful tool against utah is 'abuse bugs'

Once that's fixed, hopefully the fight is more enjoyable instead of doing the spam movement keys in the middle of ferns dance.

[hallow spire]

it will and it shall

[meager ice]

On the seventh day god said “let there be leg breaks”

and so it shall be

[hallow spire]

[wide cosmos]

Hopefully, I want my pack fights be hard against big game but not impossible as it is now. Right now only time we go after steggo is when we test out if hess a noob or not. If he doesn't buck or use the terrain, that's the only time we know we can kill him.

[true ginkgo]

I like the theory of using the terrain to brush utahs off, but in practice it's ending up as unfun.

Also hanging on should absolutely not be disabled in water. They should hold on as long as they can.

[meager ice]

Maybe you could move positions while pounced like onto back, but it would cost Stam to move there

[hallow spire]

that would actually actually look cool asf and encourage bucking instead of tree knockoffs

[true ginkgo]

Changes I'd make:

• Can pounce up to utah wading depth.
• Can keep clinging on up to the pounced animal swimming depth.
• Rubbing on terrain has the same effect as bucking (draining stam faster). Not instant utah removal.
• Stego attacks cancel if they hit terrain or objects, and don't phase through to kill the utah behind the tree.

[wide cosmos]

What most people do is stand against a rock or a tree and as soon as Utah pounce just turn into it and utah gets dropped and stunned. Just repeat the process until the pack is dead or leaves because of starving.

[hallow spire]

yep

[golden coral]

I like the idea of using momentum for the trees or rocks, to get something off. Combined with lower run times for stego and such, it would hopefully discourage wasting time and stam on running instead of just bucking. I do like if you can still turn towards a rock or tree or river to force the utah jumping off to land in a bad position or get caught by the terrain that way. Safe dismount is good in general, but it's nice if you can still use terrain to complicate things one way or the other.

[gentle vault]

Changed my response a tad to agree with everyone about basking should be done on rocks out in the open for the sake of avoiding exploitation. That's what I had in mind to begin with. When I picture something basking, I see a lizard on a rock in the sun.

And anything at a given moment can eat or attack said lizard

[primal dove]

trying to hunt stegos is a suicide mission, you can still be hit while dismounting and they lose like no bleed bc all they have to do if u pounce them is to buck

also u should lose more stamina when bucking the more utahs are pouncing u and the stam drain for the utahs should be a bit slower the more are pouncing

[gentle vault]

Agreed. Right now I feel that stegos have too much stamina when it comes to running or in general and that as a bulky creature a large enough pack of Utahs should be able to wear it down and kill one.

[primal dove]

it´s the perfect target for utahs. Slow,chunky,big

sadly there is absolute no chance for 8 utahs taking down a stego

and u gotta find 1 who is alone first

[golden coral]

See, that is entirely inccorect.

[primal dove]

fun fact it isnt

[golden coral]

It is

I've been in tests proving otherwise

Simple as that.

[primal dove]

i´ve also been in tests proving otherwise

[gray star]

No eric

[primal dove]

even if u pounce from the front u can still be spiked

[gray star]

Stay till we finish the tests

[gentle vault]

I'd like to see a Utah pounce a stego and clamp down on it's nape and have that drain the hell out of it's stam

[gray star]

Before you post

[golden coral]

While I will grant you that bucking should cost more the more pouncers are on (as stated by the devblog), I don't think it should also slow utah stamina drain.

@gray starI've been in tests. I've seen how it goes.

[gray star]

Yes and the tests with Hard and chonky they killed all of the Utahs with the stego

With the buck and tail swip

[golden coral]

And in the tests I watched, the stego died. With one or two utah losses from a full pack.

[gray star]

The tail swip stops the buck right away

[gray star]

That was the first test.

We did more after

and I was the stego

with no experience

[golden coral]

I'm not talking about your tests, I've seen others as well.

[primal dove]

You can´t just say a species isnt good/bad bc u "tested" it

[gentle vault]

Recently I faced against a pack of 7 carnos as a grown stego. I killed 4 of them and never got to half health or lost more than half stamina. That seems a bit off. Something way faster than me should be able to kill me and couldn't.

[primal dove]

cArNos aReNt dEsIgNeD tO hUnT sTEgOS

[golden coral]

I sincerely doubt that, no matter how good you are :p

And no, stego is not op

[primal dove]

utah isnt bad

[golden coral]

It's not. Utah isn't as bad as most of you make it out to be

[primal dove]

[gentle vault]

A large enough pack of ANYTHING should be able to though

[primal dove]

that´s my point

[gentle vault]

Ah

[golden coral]

Not that you should ever get such large packs in the first place :p

[primal dove]

that´s why i wrote it so weird bc of the irony

[golden coral]

But yes, in theory given enough numbers you can take on anything

[gentle vault]

Bad with irony, sorry .3.

[golden coral]

But that's more a matter of limiting the numbers you can achieve if anything

[graceful wolf]

The utah bleed does not seem to work properly

[primal dove]

np

[golden coral]

It's a matter of numbers at that point :p

[gentle vault]

It really doesn't and at that point the Utah has almost nothing as an advantage when killing things

[primal dove]

yea

[golden coral]

The bleed is a bit bugged, but even so..

[graceful wolf]

Got pounced twice as a teno. Could not even se any damage on my health bar

[golden coral]

You can't kill them all at the same time, stop being silly ^^

[primal dove]

just the fact that you theoretically can get stunned for 5 fucking seconds (if u miss the pounce) just for using ur "special ability" which if u get to land gets negotiated by 1 simple mechanic which drains all of ur stam

great game

[golden coral]

@gray starI'm happy to wait for the rest of your tests too, but you're also not the be all/end all when it comes to that. And the other tests I've seen says otherwise. So you know.. who's to blame for the results?

I don't.. think you realize how many 100 utahs would be.. :p

Though I suppose the game might lag and thus make it easier to just swing and hit or something ^^

[gentle vault]

Utah is usually my main when I don't feel like spending 6 hours to grow something, but atleast in Legacy the Utah has something going for them. Speed and bleed. Right now, it's not worth picking it half the time

[gray star]

No you can spam buck and swing at the same time and catch the utah most times.

[gentle vault]

And this just pisses me off to no end, I have a special ability but it's virtually useless and drains my stam

[primal dove]

it can be ur death sentence

yea nice "special ability"

[gentle vault]

It usually is

[golden coral]

Most times. Implying not always, thus there's still a chance. Also with proper numbers, over time. Again, tests looks different and gives different results. So who's to blame, who's conducting proper tests and who gets to claim they know better than the others? This isn't a situation where only one sides tests are valid and not the others, or something like that.

Pretty sure the utah got the stun on miss to make just spamming pounce bad

Could remove that and add stamina drain instead, would work if it's a sufficient drain.

[primal dove]

i pErSoNaLLy thInK uTaH mAiNs lAcK bRaIncElLs aNd shOuLd jUst gEt beTtEr aT poUnCinG gIt GUd

[golden coral]

Rather that you need to adopt a new mentality :p

Utah does not function like it did before balance patch, need to adjust to that

[primal dove]

it doesnt function at all

[golden coral]

If you're playing like you did before, then no, it won't work out

[primal dove]

how should i play then

[golden coral]

So you say. Meanwhile I know others that still survive and play utah just fine. So I don't know. xD

[primal dove]

just bleed him

[primal dove]

wdym with the term survive im not surviving if im just feeding on ai/juvis

that´s not why i play utah

[golden coral]

And that's not surviving? :p

[primal dove]

it certainly isnt for me

[golden coral]

Well.. to each their own I guess :p

[gentle vault]

I don't think Utah is bad by any means, but it's frustrating to work with right now. It doesn't function at all like a Utah should, Legacy somewhat being a reference and things that I've seen about it's roughly estimated behavior. I can't be in a large pack and expect to take things down like a pack of wolves would.

[primal dove]

i survive when i have fun and get to take down things which are a challenge

[golden coral]

See, that's not surviving. Surviving = staying alive, nothing more or less.

[gray star]

OKay my last message casuse I don't care. I have the footage. I am part of an actual training server, we have found bugs in the game and reported them. We know how to test and we did.

I have the footage I record everything. If You have proof of the utahs being good against stegos. Come to the training server and show us.

[gentle vault]

Can you show us the footage?

[golden coral]

I wasn't the one recording, but I was there watching. I know how to test as well, so there is that. You're not the be all/end all, like I said. Yes, you've found bugs, so have others. Not sure how that is related though. I have seen utahs be able to kill stegos, simple as that. In tests, done more than once. With people I know who also knows how to play the game.

[gentle vault]

Like this said footage is of Utahs killings Stegos or of bugs with them?

[true ginkgo]

If you want to rack up the biggest killcount as a measure of viability, I'm sure deathmatch mode will return at some point.

Yes, there are several bugs involving the utah/stego matchup.

You don't solve those issues by nerfing stego and buffing utah. You solve them by fixing the bugs.

[primal dove]

how did they killed it. How long did it take them to do so. Did someone die. What was the location. Did the stego know how to buck. Did some bugs influence the fight. How many utahs were fighting etc etc etc.

[golden coral]

15 min. Two utahs died of the 7 or so it was. Open plains. Bucking was used yes. No bugs from what I know.

[gentle vault]

At this point, anyone could say they've seen bugs and tested them. None of that matters in the grand scheme of things, it just needs to be looked at and fixed

[primal dove]

great why do so many ppl struggle taking down stegos then?

or killing shit at all?

i mean if utah is as good as u describe it why is everyone struggling suddenly?

[golden coral]

Could it possibly be because people are either A, too hasty, or B, bugs involved or C, just not used to the whole pouncing/bucking back and forth as much. Plenty of reasons you know.

Has it occured to you that maybe you're not as good as you think? :p

[true ginkgo]

Like yeah, stego can stand in a fern patch mashing A and D, and be unkillable.

You don't give the utah 1000 health and 4x damage to solve that. You remove the 'you spin me right round baby' exploit instead.

[golden coral]

I suspect most people are struggling cause of the utah change in behaviour/hunting style

[primal dove]

I understand, but I know ppl who have 1k hours on utah in evrima and they also say they cant take it down in a coordinated pack

[golden coral]

1K hours of.. not playing this new changed utah, keep in mind. But you asked for reasons, so I provided.

We've had the patch for less than a week

I don't claim to be good enough to get used to/adapt that fast, at least not to the same level as I would be if I had played for a month or more before in a different manner.

[primal dove]

it didnt change as much tho. Bait out attacks get some bites/pounces in bleed it out if the target is low enough kill it

[golden coral]

It did change. Since you're now primarily only pouncing and it takes much longer.

[primal dove]

but yea everyone looks at that differently which is good

[golden coral]

Before you could kill stegos faster, now it's that 15-20 min of bucking/cycling pouncers

And mind you, I am saying this is with the stego using bucking and all that, not using bugs or hiding in trees, because I do agree those things should be adjusted

[primal dove]

not if it spikes u while dismounting

[golden coral]

Which I'd rather see we did before changing stats again

[primal dove]

bc it still happens

[golden coral]

Yeah, there's some ways to catch from one of the slots, not sure right now if it's the front or rear ones

But that can be taken into account

As well as most likely planned out for. Sure, if the stego really sets his mind to catching that one utah, but then every other slot is open for new pouncers.

I did say there were a few losses involved, which, if it's fine or not, is up to everyone to decide on.

But losing 1-3 utahs out of 8 to take down a stego seems.. not too unreasonable to me

If it turns out the stego can reliably catch every other dismount, then the dismount needs more work

But then I would again point out it's an issue with the dismount, and not something that should be fixed with more bleed on pounce or changing bucking or something

Right now it seems more so that people want to revert the stat changes, rather than fix the more obvious issues we're seeing

[dawn falcon]

Hm yes. Buff Utah because I got to 1% hp after a teno slap even though I wasn’t at full health

https://tenor.com/view/perfect-sense-great-idea-john-cena-bumblebee-bumblebee-movie-gif-12199715

[stark knoll]

that means "nerf teno" not "buff utah"

nearly everything got its health decreased but tenos damage was untouched

[primal dove]

ohh

mb sry

me english no good

still buff utah :>

[oak wind]

It doesn't tbh

Nor animals do need a nerf.

Or buff.

[primal dove]

disagree

[oak wind]

Stego needs stamina nerf.

[true ginkgo]

Tenotos tail slam (and carnos charge) are the two attacks I currently have most issue with. Their power should be in their ability to stun or outright knock down things utahs size. Rather than raw damage.

Both are one shotting atm so a damage nerf on both would be cool.

[oak wind]

Actually, all small need inertia buff.

Hypsi, Dryo and Utah

[stark knoll]

i rather like the current balance. inertia wasnt properly customized per creature and pounce bugs are being fixed. ignoring those issues, everything feels smooth

[true ginkgo]

Also needs a run which isn't a gallop. Galloping stego is gross.

[primal dove]

and some stam for the utah it´s legit a chase-hunter who doesn´t have enough stam

[oak wind]

I mean

No

Because alone it is an ambush predator

[true ginkgo]

I liked carnos charge when it was knock down utah, turn around, finish him.

Rather than instikill.

[oak wind]

And in pack endurance

Doing relay strategy

So it counts on being with multiple team mates.

Possibly covering it.

[primal dove]

sad thing is u dont get enough bleed stacked if 2 utahs pounce smth for 2s

[oak wind]

Hunting way larger animals

[thin mantle]

Actually utahs are made to be endurance hunters, ambush is just a universally effective hunting strategy

[oak wind]

like Para, Shant which also are way slower.

[primal dove]

but yea the overall idea is good

cycling out utahs

[stark knoll]

you shouldnt

2 seconds is nothing

[oak wind]

Endurance is when you hunt down larger animals tbh.

[primal dove]

that´s the problem with bucking

[oak wind]

It won't out stam smaller animals.

Or out speed them.

It would pin them down.

So, ambush.

[stark knoll]

utah is still pretty fast in the grand scheme of things

[true ginkgo]

I've been ran over by a horse.

My collarbone still hurts 3 years later.

[primal dove]

they are like hyenas/wolves tho

[oak wind]

Alone no

Compare them to things like felines

In packs they can be endurance hunter

Against way larger opponents.

[primal dove]

yea but only idiots play utah solo

[thin herald]

Carno needs to rely on its main ability, that being charge. Cuck it's agility and make it linear.

[thin mantle]

It can be for that but no, endurance means you have a lot of stamina by definition. It being a pursuit predator capable of taking down large targets with attrition is what it’s made for

[thin herald]

Make it turn like an 18 wheeler semi truck

[primal dove]

fuck realism PLEASE

[thin herald]

Realism is a good base for balance, but shouldn't determine balance.

[thin mantle]

It’s an overused standard

[true ginkgo]

What I'm trying to say is the carno charge and tenoto tail slam should have their main power be in their CC abilities. Not just huge damage numbers.

They have plenty of other attacks which provide the damage.

[primal dove]

it did

i mean it should survive the charge itself but not what happens afterwards

[thin herald]

I'm down for Tail slam and Charge to be nerfed in damage but the CC is main use for it. Would also be skilled based.

Utah's alt bite needs to be more rewarding though.

[primal dove]

what exactly do u mean with that?

increase the bleed dmg?

it did

[thin mantle]

For game balance, no they shouldn’t be that rewarding

[true ginkgo]

In update 3, carno would knock down a 500kg utah, and then need two bites to kill. Meanwhile it instikilled a 500kg stego.

This update, it's just instant death the second it touches your tail tip.

Knockdown followed by a finishing bite is far cooler.

[oak wind]

Counter point : those things are way slower an you count on team mates to take them down.

[primal dove]

ok so what u just said is : carnos ram shouldn´t be an actual threat

[oak wind]

It should be as it opens a really good opportunity to the animal.

[primal dove]

ok so there is only 1 wolf always attacking a bison while the others wait for their turn

[oak wind]

But it being something you can use in a fight is dumb tbh.

[oak wind]

No.

They are a huge pack.

[primal dove]

perfect same should be for the utah

[oak wind]

They do like 3 then 3

Waiting for each other to recover.

Switching.

Getting the animal huge quantity of bleed.

That's their endurance hunting tactic.

[thin herald]

I'm fine with nerfing the charge, but keep the one shot aspect to Utahs.

[primal dove]

buff its stam so that IF ur prey item runs away u still can catch up to it after a pounce

[oak wind]

If you didn't succeed to get it then you've lost my friend.

You needed better timers and not everyone going for it.

[primal dove]

one shot aspect? werent they bleeder?

or is that just my opinion

[oak wind]

You can still keep players to pursue.

Carno isn't bleeder.

[primal dove]

ootah

[oak wind]

Utah is.

[primal dove]

y

[primal dove]

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[oak wind]

And that's what make its prey item not really able to do something.

[thin herald]

By nerfing the charge, I mean base damage. It does 600 which is a bit oppressive if landed right because then you can just 3 alt bite tenos head and it dies. Maybe nerf the charge as of now. Keep it above Utah's weight of 450 though. The charge should one shot Utahs. However, the charge should be primarily used for CC rather than pure damage.

[oak wind]

As it is their main way to keep something from escaping.

[thin herald]

Also adds skill to the game rather than just going around and chompa chompa

Because you can kill a full grown teno by charging it 3 times

Guess your right on that.

Yea

Imo the biteforce needs to be nerfed again

Small amount

[oak wind]

Wait

Charge CC Stego ?

[thin herald]

No

[oak wind]

Oh

[thin herald]

You get stunned but the stego doesnt

[primal dove]

200N is fine

and even get little damage

[wide cosmos]

I'm curious how is Carno punished for missing his charge, loose a little more stam for no reward? Same for tenno tail slam. Because if Utah misses its ability it means certain death. So with that logic if Utah lands a pounce it should be guaranteed kill? But wait, bucking...

[thin herald]

Tfw Stamina is the basis for all fights

[primal dove]

ohh yea u can also die for succesfully using ur special ability

but i think we just have to git gud

i think carnos charge should just be made more viable

[wide cosmos]

So because of that carnos should be able to one shot utahs?

Probably alot harder then pressing E

[thin herald]

It is viable though

To make it even more of a viable option, nerf the fuck out of its agility

[wide cosmos]

Carnos charge should knock down, not one shot. That's the while reason for it. Also make the wind up alot faster to make the charge more viable

[thin herald]

Still want Legacy agility for Evrima Carno

Agree

People are like "ew no. We don't need legacy agility for Carno". My guy, we have turn in place, alt bite. It's fine if we nerf the overall agility of the adult Carno. It can still fight.

[wide cosmos]

Ok then with that logics Utah pounce should straight up kill a Carno

[thin herald]

What?

450 kg animal vs 1,8 ton creature.

.....

You see the issue with the 450 kg winning?

Same

I think it should be very apparent if not clearly obvious.

[wide cosmos]

Completely missing the point here...

We are not talking about who would win

[thin herald]

You were implying it

[wide cosmos]

But the purpose of the special ability

[thin herald]

You were implying that a 450 kg can kill a 1,8 ton creature with ease.

[primal dove]

well a 450kg creature solo shouldnt kill such a beast but a pack of such creature DEFINITELY should

[wide cosmos]

That was my counter argument, It was meant to be ridiculous

Carnos charge is meant to stun and have a follow-up same as Utah pounce suppose to cause bleed and wide down the pray. Those mechanics would loose its purpose if either of them could straight up kill the target

[hallow spire]

true

[thin herald]

But Carno a carno sprinting at a nimble Utah should kill it. You have a creature 4x the weight sprinting at 55+kmph. Why shouldn't that not kill the Utah?

[hallow spire]

bcuz its charge isnt supposed to one shot its supposed to knockdown i get what ur saying and it is realistic but it throws away what carnos charge is supposed to do which is stun and then bite

[hollow canyon]

The reason why Carno's charge deals this much damage is for the Carno to be able to contest Tenonto after its biteforce nerf. Tenonto currently outdamages Carno hard if you disregard the charge.

[wide cosmos]

Because this is a dinosaur game not real life

[thin herald]

But you have a creature sprinting at a creature that weighs 4x less than it. Plus this game is going for realism for it's mechanics and physics.

[wide cosmos]

I agree that carnon charge should be buffed in a way where you could do it from less of a distance. But it shouldn't one-shot utahs

[thin herald]

So by all means, a carno should kill a utah

[hollow canyon]

I agree that it's meh that it oneshots Utah, the damage dealt being buffed on it isn't caused by the Utah, it's to offset the biteforce nerf in the match up against Tenonto

[hallow spire]

oh ok

[wide cosmos]

If you want to go for realism thaen deinos should have a bite force of around 6000 and be able to bite your carno in half. You see a problem with that?

[hallow spire]

lol

[hollow canyon]

Deino not dealing as much damage as it should is a different matter altogether - they were specifically made smaller than the real life estimate because the Deinosuchus we have in the game was supposed to be the smaller species - D.rugosus

[thin mantle]

If that were true then a Utah successfully pouncing any creature a single time would disembowel it. That’s why this is a game

[thin herald]

But our Utah isn't a true utah

[hollow canyon]

You severely overestimate how much damage a Utah could dish out by pouncing.

[thin mantle]

That’s not a point, I’m talking about our Utah

[hollow canyon]

Dromaeosaurs didn't use their foot claws to disembowel animals

[thin herald]

And Utahs have serious bleed so that statement is invalid.

[hollow canyon]

They used them to grip onto the animal and deal damage with their mouths

[thin herald]

But it is? Since our Utah isn't anatomically a true Utah.

[thin mantle]

Again, our Utah using its claws for slashing. Referring to irl Utah doesn’t really make sense

[hallow spire]

in game it looks like they use there foot claws to claw at them too

[thin mantle]

But irl Utah is irrelevant to the discussion about our Utah

[hollow canyon]

Yea but the efficacy of that would heavily depend on what they're pouncing and just how sharp their claws would be. In general it isn't that simple to pierce the hide of another animal. A tiger can kick another tiger doing very little to it with a strike that would kill a human being on the spot. Animals in general can typically take quite a bit of punishment.

In general slashing with the feet like that wouldn't be a very good idea in most cases.

[thin mantle]

But in game they quite literally slash at/through the hide if whatever they are attacking. Otherwise it wouldn’t draw so much blood. It’s apart of their animation

[hollow canyon]

Sure because that's the animation of it, that's why it causes a lot of bleeding

Realistically speaking Carno shouldn't be oneshotting a Utah with the charge, I agree with that

but as I said before the decision to increase Carno's damage output on the charge was probably more so caused by the Tenonto match up than the Utah match up

[thin mantle]

Right! I think we’re on the same page regarding that

[golden coral]

@hollow canyonIf you nerfed the teno tail damage, would it work out better vs a nerfed carno charge then, when the teno can't just do massive damage quite as easily and would have to rely on claws or kicks, putting it more in line with the carnos bites?

[hollow canyon]

The issue is that nerfing Tenonto's damage has to be done very carefully - the animal uses up a tonne of stamina on its attacks, it would be very easy to screw it over by any changes to the damage output

Not a fan of increasing the claw-swipe's damage because it will kill Utahs too easily imo

it's probably the easiest attack to land in Tenonto's kit

kick... maybe? I've suggested that before but it's also tricky as Tenontos very often use it defensively too to set up animals for the tailslams according to what I've been told

I'm genuinely quite torn about how to balance these three out

Perhaps general lowering of the stamina cost and damage on Tenonto's back-facing attacks could be one solution

[golden coral]

Could remove the CC on the kick maybe? Is it really needed there when they have the slam? For that matter, how much stamina does the slam drain now, is it increased?

[hollow canyon]

10% for the slam, kick is something like 6.6%

I've seen some people claim that removing the CC on the kick(I actually only suggested upping the stam cost on it) would kill Tenonto as a playable.

[golden coral]

Hm.. 10% was maybe a bit harsh. And maybe it would, but I doubt it. Was that before or after all the other changes for that matter? Or with changes taken into account otherwise?

[hollow canyon]

It's been 10% on the tailslam since like forever

[dawn falcon]

I think it’s mainly due to kick being a stronger version of alt bite which can let you control the turn?

Idk

[hollow canyon]

It's the kick's cost that has been changed

It was 4% or 5% before and it's 6.6% now

You can kick 15 times now while having full stamina, 16 counting the stam regen if you're not bleeding

[thin mantle]

The addition of future playable should be taken into account when discussing this kind of stuff. Particularly since most of the future roster is larger in size than the playable see have right now

Just a note

[golden coral]

Hm. Maybe its not so bad then, never really had issues with it. But the idea was mostly that if carno charge gets damage nerf, teno has to be adjusted so it can't just tank the damage, counter and then kill the carno.

[hollow canyon]

Most of the upcoming additions are actually still on the smaller side. I'm particularly worried about Ceratosaurus for now as it's in the size-range where it would get knocked down by any CC from Tenonto

[hallow spire]

balancing for the game is always gonna change the more things get added to the game so imo almost nothing is permanent when they change stats for a dino

[thin mantle]

The size for Cerato is not set in stone, especially since it’s supposed to be a physical superior to Carno

[hollow canyon]

Not a single estimate of Ceratosaurus is large enough not to get stunned by Tenonto

even the really questionnable 1.6t size estimate puts it at equal size to Tenonto and Tenonto knocks itself down with its CC

[thin mantle]

What do you mean? Irl size statistics are irrelevant to this game

[hollow canyon]

Are you sure about that? The devs have specifically stated that they will be aiming for the largest paleoaccurate sizes for each animal in the game with some exceptions(those exceptions being smaller than their largest estimates).

The exceptions so far are Herrera and Deinosuchus

[thin mantle]

And stego, Utah, tenonto

And Carno

[hollow canyon]

Utahraptor being another one but it's a bit different to the real life Utah as it's much less robust. I personally wouldn't mind it being upped to 500kg.

Carno, Tenonto and Stego are accurate

Carno's largest size estimate is 1.8t indeed(there's a potential 2.1t estimate that I've seen at some point but 1.8t is the common estimate for this animal). Tenonto is 1.6t irl as well.

Stegosaurus is 6t as well

They are accurate for the most part

[thin mantle]

Well a few of those maximum estimates are too low, stegos max was 7, Tento is is 1.95. Ultimately it’s irrelevant, our stego isn’t anatomically accurate, so is teno, so is Utah, so is Magy, so is troodon (which isn’t a taxon anymore).

My point is that paleo accuracy isn’t a consistent standard for the devs and I really don’t care if it is or not. Especially when it comes to size, Utah has fluctuated quite a bit

[hollow canyon]

Stego's max is 6t currently, with the latest changes it might even go up to 8t but when it was being released in Evrima the largest Stegosaurus S.ungulatus was 6t. Tenonto's largest paleoaccurate estimate was also 1.6t not 1.95t(although it might be around that with the density changes).

The devs have stated that for the most part they intend to stick to the largest paleoaccurate sizes of most dinosaurs.

It's been stated before the release of Evrima

and so far they're doing a good job keeping their word.

[thin mantle]

Utah

Why does it not count

[hollow canyon]

It's... not exactly close to a real-life Utah, it's less massive than its real life counterpart therefore its weight is likely reduced to reflect that.

[thin mantle]

Why not do the same to other dinos

They’ve set a precedent with Utah so it wouldn’t be unwarranted

[hollow canyon]

A lot of people don't like Utah specifically because of what it is

[spare badger]

Yea
Buff cerato size
Similar to Utah treatment

[hollow canyon]

Utah treatment would be decreasing its size - besides it's already being changed in many ways from its real-life counterpart as an animal.

[thin mantle]

Doesn’t really matter, it is how it is so the precedent exists. I dislike that it’s called Utahraptor but I enjoy it in game

[small pawn]

how is it not a utah raptor? thats where im confused

[hollow canyon]

The precedent isn't what we're talking about though - we're not talking about making Cerato a completely different animal than it is - it's already different to the real life counterpart in how it's going to play. Utah's precedent makes the animal smaller - I'm failing to see how that helps Ceratosaurus whose issue is that it's small.

[thin mantle]

It is much smaller in game compared to irl

[meager ice]

Maybe the difference is due to the isle lore

[hollow canyon]

It's not a Utahraptor because the real life Utahraptor is a very robust apex predator. It's not so much smaller in the game but it's much less "massive"

[small pawn]

Got ya, ok i thought it was a bigger difference though i can agree with the statement

[hollow canyon]

Real life Utahraptor is a polar-bear sized animal that's very stoat but not particularly fast.

[thin mantle]

Anatomically it’s also very different in skeletal structure and proportions

[hollow canyon]

This is a real-life Utahraptor

[hallow spire]

big boy

[hollow canyon]

It's not a particularly fast animal, but it's more robust in its build than the in-game dinosaur.

[thin mantle]

Indeed, irl Utah was pretty thick

[thin mantle]

All differences in the dinos physique is justified by the lore. That’s why the concepts in game differ in minor or major ways from the og

[true ginkgo]

Irl utah was bulky, larger, and slow. Isle raptor is skinny, smaller, and super fast

[thin mantle]

That’s why spino looks like a crocodile Trex

[true ginkgo]

Basically they wanted jp raptor

Irl utah is like a cassowary and a grizzly bear loved each other very much

[small pawn]

Like these

[thin mantle]

That’s the perfect way to describe it😂

[small pawn]

well jp raptors arent correct either

[true ginkgo]

Yeah sure we could make stego a 3 ton mid tier. But why? We’re getting kentro. And I’m pretty sure rex isn’t going to be made small either

[thin mantle]

By comparison to legacy, Rex is getting 3 tons heavier

[hallow spire]

heres another exampe of a bulky utah much more intimidating than the one we have now imo lol

[thin mantle]

It’s skeleton is still pretty off, but otherwise it’s proportionately more accurate

[hallow spire]

yea

[true ginkgo]

Shrinking stego makes it more balanced now. But turns it into apex bait later on.

Hell I question how the current stego will survive a rex encounter

[dawn falcon]

https://tenor.com/view/wide-eyes-americas-got-talent-agt-oh-no-omg-gif-22701276

[vagrant mural]

It won’t

[thin mantle]

Numbers I’d assume, especially with how high it’s damage is. If it were running away from the rex it could probably backwards facing tail attack that deals lower damage. It could also have a massive damage reduction from rexes due to posture, seeing as how rexes would be biting down onto the plates. Granted the plates wouldn’t “realistically help” but from a gameplay standpoint I can imagine a lot of ways stegos could either avoid or counter rexes

[true ginkgo]

I can easily imagine the rex tanking a tail attack as it sprints up. Then lmb spam to win.

[lament cloak]

isle utah: thin, agile, speedy, featherless, pack hunter, gets onehit by everything.
irl utah: bulky, slow, solitary, feathers, will just wrestle you to death even if you're alot bigger

real utah is pretty much the opposite of our utah

[meager ice]

Stego bleed from tail will kill it

[spare badger]

I thought irl Utah worked in small packs

[small pawn]

i think that is something utah need to have which i may not be seeing is a bleed

[lament cloak]

im pretty sure its solitary

[small pawn]

it takes to much for them to cause a bleed

[spare badger]

Imma go look at the utahraptor project again real quick

[tacit oriole]

Negative, bucking Stam cost is fixed. It's a mistake to pounce more than one at once, most times (unless you have a big pack)

[tacit oriole]

Tree rubbing isn't the really strong strategy. What good herbivores do is point you at the tree and buck

[vagrant mural]

While the ones found in the utahraptor project could indicate hunt at pack hunting, it’s much more likely it was either a feeding frenzy or a predator trap, and even if they did hunt in groups it was more likely to be uncoordinated mobbing

[tacit oriole]

Can confirm lol. Ate some juicy teno steaks last night thanks to it

[spare badger]

Babies in a feeding frenzy too?
Mobbing would make sense
There were 6 in the same spot
Because they found a trapped iguanodontid

Pack hunting we can't figure out yet

[golden coral]

Why would it be a mistake to pounce more than one at a time? That should be the main thing, since we got multiple slots. And what is fixed with bucking stam cost? What was wrong with the cost in the first place?

Also not sure why pointing the pouncer at the tree would be the strong strategy, can you explain how it's better than just rubbing them off outright?

I do enjoy that stegos and tenos are at war, now wait until pachy is in and we'll have a mexican standoff. xD

[small pawn]

doesnt really matter people in game will pack hunt no matter the species

[spare badger]

True

The Utahraptor pack hunting is based off of information we have about deinonychus I believe

[tacit oriole]

Ok so:
Why is multi-pouncing bad? Because your 1st aim in a Utah fight is to drain your targets stamina to maximize bleed. If you all pile on, the prey gets to drain all of the utahs Stam with a couple of bucks without expending much if its own

[tacit oriole]

Why tree pointing is strong: rubbing just knocks a Utah off, and you aren't guaranteed being able to kill it (even as stego). If you point the Utah at a tree, it becomes impossible for them to safe dismount and you can control where they land then kill them

Plus they get a stagger/stun when they hit the tree

So yeah you take a little more bleed but you get a 100% guaranteed kill

Much like pointing them up hill

[golden coral]

For the multipouncing, shouldn't that drain more stamina than if you do it one by one? So it would be worth trying to get more utahs on than just taking turns. If not it really should, it makes sense to me that the pack should be encouraged to utilize all of the slots available. Might be worth looking over perhaps?

Second, I suppose, though if they get rubbed off they do the whole knocked on your ass thing, which takes longer than a stun and they're right there, no real chance of missing. Do you get a stagger even if you hit a tree or rock from a dismount now then? But it's a fair point, and it makes some sense to utilize terrain like that, instead of just turning and getting the utah off that quick. Also gives the utah a bit more time to react, as well as the rest of the pack.

[tacit oriole]

I wish I could reply inline. Should buck do less or cost more with more utahs? Absolutely. Does it? Not that I've seen. It should also do less or more depending on where you pounce - a front slot on a teno would be more affected by buck than a rear slot.

Regarding rubbing, it's not been a guaranteed kill in my experience, especially as a teno. Might just be because I'm not great at aiming slams, but tree rubbing seems a bit random and the utahs tend to glitch and teleport around and be hard to consistently hit with kick/slam. I've gotten much better success sacrificing that bit of extra blood and Stam to properly control where they land

Plus if you are rubbing you can only get rid of one side, where bucking will get rid of all of them if they are stacking on

Most utahs will jump off if they see you going for a rub too, but I've caught a few out with just pointing

[golden coral]

There is a weird glitch with some of the trees, could be part of the reaosn. I've had better luck perhaps with using the trees as stego, but then as stego I have a bit more range than the teno. And yes, but you can only aim one at a time, or just walk another step and get the other one off too. They're not that far from each other on the slots.

Yeah, more interesting mechanics for pouncing/bucking would be nice. But there's supposed to be an increase in cost with the amount of pouncers. So says the devblog/patch notes.

Another thing for you to test I suppose :p

[tacit oriole]

But 1v3 or 1v4 as teno if the utahs are good at baiting and controlling your attention is rough

It's a lot like old stego vs carno

[golden coral]

As it should be, 1v3 should mean a dead teno on average.

[tacit oriole]

Camping shallows is still legit too, except for some strange reason nobody seems to be heading there to drink anymore

[golden coral]

Just like 7-8 utahs should be about 50/50 vs stego, much as I dislike using that term cause it's so confusing. But 2 utahs vs 1 teno should be in tenos favour, 3v1 is in utah favour but still a fight, and then 4v1 teno is well, dead teno unless utahs mess up.

But go test the bucking thing, try with stego, since it has more slots. Should be a noticable effect, unless that change never went through. Or so I would expect at least.

[tacit oriole]

Teno has 6 slots just like stego I'm pretty sure

[golden coral]

Too many people have died falling down while going for water I bet!

[tacit oriole]

Haha maybe

[golden coral]

Wait what? Far as I know teno/carno has 2 slots, stego has 4?

Where would you even fit 6 utahs on a teno? :p

Or stego for that matter.. xD

[tacit oriole]

I'll check next time I can, but basically shoulders, hips, and base of tail for stego

Base of tail is a punishable mistake though, you can swing them into a tree

[golden coral]

Yeah, please test, far as I know it's the 2 and 4 slots. And well, that would make some sense at least, can't imagine holding on to a swinging tail would be easy either, would be one of those extra stamina draining spots if that would be a thing.

But test out if the amount of pouncers has an effect on bucking, because it should far as I know.

@tacit oriole"Bucking costs more depending on the number of pouncers."

Says in patchnotes.

[tacit oriole]

Hmm, may be a bug, may be something I've missed. I'll retract that statement until I can test it

[golden coral]

I also want to see how you'd fit 6 utahs on a teno xD

Sure they do have a noticable rear end but still :p

[tacit oriole]

Teno is definitely at least 4, but yeah I'll try if I can. Many of the people I used to do this stuff with are taking a bit of a break from TI until they fix all the issues with this patch

Which I have a sinking feeling won't happen until U4

[golden coral]

Well.. hopefully u4 is sooner rather than later

So we can survive until then :p

[thin mantle]

I’m a very patient person, like VERY patient. But I seriously can’t wait for the graphics, FPS, roster, balance, and entertainment value of this game to either improve or get fixed🤤

[golden coral]

You're not happy with the graphics? Performance I agree with, roster the same, I'm missing a good few, balance, well that's ever ongoing. Full gameplay loop, reason to stay alive and all that? I've waited for that for 5 years! :p

[thin mantle]

6 for me, I feel you bro😔 I’m more so referring to graphical consistency. A lot of the world assets don’t work too well together right now (new mud being an asset that contrasts with the rest). Plus the render distance and color of grass makes you feel like you’re on a giant mobile grass polka dot :/

Forests right now look great because all the individual assets are fantastic and render doesn’t become a problem due to limited visibility

[golden coral]

Ah. Well.. I've not given that much thought, mostly that the world is too green in general. Much as I love the color, some variation would be nice. Less graphics per say perhaps and more.. design? But I do like the mud, new brighter mud looks better than the old and dark one to me. The grass.. yeah, you have a point there :p

And hm, if you say 6 years it would be almost the same for me, maybe I miscalculated. Been here since the danger floof came out after all!

[thin mantle]

I have seen the rise and fall of the TSL rex🥲 Back in the early days when your options were limited to Carno, rex, shan’t, and a couple others I can’t remember.

[thin mantle]

Oh same I love the new mud, it actually looks like mud instead of chocolate now😂 Although it doesn’t go well with the color palette of the world rn, but works great with the U4 one

[golden coral]

Shant, galli, puerta. Rex, carno, austro. I think at least. Then we got theri... and dryo was one of the early ones too, with only some sounds. And so on.. :p

[thin mantle]

Oh thanks! I could barely remember, I’ll have to check out some old vids of it for nostalgia

God I remember when Austro was viable

Good times

[golden coral]

Depends on if you were the austro or the acro... :p

[thin mantle]

Austro supremacy😈 We used to have pounce

[golden coral]

"viable" he says. Yes, I remember when one pounce would bleed things out ^^

And yes, austro pounce. Pounce a carno on the leg and enjoy the ride :p

[thin mantle]

Let’s go with “a little too viable😉”

[golden coral]

Since you were around back then, did you ever try out the "first person" mode? ^^

[thin mantle]

Although the 40+ Austro mega packs were a joy to behold

[thin mantle]

Once, and only once

[golden coral]

Again, depends entirely on what side you were on... :p I don't think the people finally progging to acro felt that way ^^

[thin mantle]

Imma guess you were a Beta Acro main 😂

[golden coral]

Then you'd at least know how very strange the perspective is when you usually don't realize how big/tall the playable you are is. :D

Not at that point in time, because A, didn't like the skin, and B, trash bag stomping noises ^^

[thin mantle]

Unfortunately that persisted into later versions of Legacy😒

[golden coral]

I did very much enjoy acro later on, so you're not entirely wrong. I like it more than rex or giga.

Bacon acro skin.. :p

[thin mantle]

I only like rex more for the calls and the lack of a terrible camera angle, spino is pog

[thin mantle]

Raw acro skin

[golden coral]

I don't recall acro camera being bad back then, but current weird acro size might play into that.

[thin mantle]

Yeah the acro tail almost pierces the camera

Currently

[golden coral]

Old rex calls! (except the 4 call spam... holy hell was that a pain!).

And yeah, but current acro size is so very off so there is that :p

[thin mantle]

The old tsl rex 1 call was absolutely fantastic, but I still like the current one better😊

[thin mantle]

Correct, I didn’t play much “old acro” I was an Austro main until allo came out, although I’m not proud to admit that😖

The allo swarms were….😳

[golden coral]

I mean, austros are cute and all. I preferred the herrera but austro is good enough I guess. But allo.. eh, fine. Did you also think they looked like big raptors from a distance, the first model that is? :p

No, go away with your megapacking! ^^

[thin mantle]

Oh definitely, especially by comparison to the first Utah model

I just liked Austro for the giggle and the pounce :>

[golden coral]

New concept, yay or nay? :p

[thin mantle]

I actually really like it! I love the super narrow snout it has plus the fan is a massive improvement

It had it before but it’s head looks like a spear now, and that’s just cool to me

[golden coral]

Fair enough, glad you as an austro main likes it. Think you'd go back to being one when it comes out then? I doubt it'll keep pounce, but maybe it's getting something else cool.

[thin mantle]

Without

A

Doubt

It’s going to be a fish eater (most likely the smallest fish eating carnivore) and will prolly be a bit faster than a Utah based on physiology alone (just a speculation tbf)

Being at the bottom of the “fish meta” sounds like a load of fun to me

I’d assume it would be a Dino similar in how you like to play the game tbh

[golden coral]

Oh?

[thin mantle]

Very survival oriented

Not too combatively impressive

[golden coral]

Possible, depends on how fish works out I guess. I am curious about beipi at least

[thin mantle]

Oh very

[golden coral]

But herrera would be preferable, I am so looking forward to arboreal gameplay

And well, the whole death from above!

[thin mantle]

I will absolutely favor herra

Herrera sounds like so much fun, prolly the best ground animal for map exploration

[golden coral]

Dryo or herrera for the small ones. Then kentro I suppose for mid, maybe carno around there too. And then stego, and possibly acro (depending on how that works out) for the larger end. Seems good to me!

All critters I like, with hopefully appealing playstyles and all.

[thin mantle]

Yeah, part of the discussion around stat balance that’s been frustrating for me is how general the ideas seem to be, like stamina for example. That shouldn’t be a generalized mechanic when it comes to how it behaves! Because all dinos have different play styles that allow for differing levels of it.

Just a lil rant😊

[thin mantle]

Thiccro looks like it’ll be so much fun

[mental roost]

Christ Tenoto feels so slow now ..

[fathom obsidian]

like every dino, just gotta getr used to it, every dino got speed nerf

[mental roost]

I know that, but just running around as Tenoto feels.. PAINFULLY SLOW.. and wrong. Likewise Stego feels fine(big and chunky) but Tenoto shouldn't feel sluggish like it does right now.

[gentle vault]

NO NOT ANOTHER CRASH

[thin mantle]

If I were to fix anything, it would be to increase it's resting stamina regen by a small bit and decrease the acceleration. It takes a bit to get to full speed, which is a bit odd for an animal like teno

[vagrant inlet]

@cosmic matrix don’t go to a place where it’s easy to get trapped?

You have an entire river system and you chose to camp in a spawnpoint with lot’s of shallow water, what did you think was going to happen?

[hallow spire]

doesnt matter lol stegos still shouldnt go deino fishing whenever they want and tenonto claw attack shouldnt get a utah on too much low health

[meager ice]

It is a thumb stab, but does comparable damage to a tail slam

[cosmic matrix]

what infinity said

[sly pilot]

@dawn falcon#balance-feedback He's absolutely right

[dawn falcon]

The fuck

What who and huh

[sly pilot]

about the weight that you wrote

[dawn falcon]

https://tenor.com/view/friends-joey-tribbiani-matt-le-blanc-im-so-confused-confused-gif-4572653

[sly pilot]

I just haven't thought about it before

[primal dove]

sadly it´s a hotspot

[wide cosmos]

Sadly the entire maps is just 3 spots; shallows, center and the toilet (south pond) all the other areas are deserted. Occasionally might find someone at SE swamp. Bu it's shame because the map has some really scenic spots that I hope some day will be populated

[thin mantle]

That's what diets are for 😉

[hallow spire]

@charred hare if that was added ppl who died would just switch to there other dino and come back to kill the person that killed them and plus it's a survival game if u die u die u shouldn't have another chance to spawn in as a adult even if it is another species

[graceful wolf]

Hope they will remake the map cus the current one has a shit design with zero logic. Its like designed for deinosuchus to grab dinos and forgot that there are other playables in the game. The map in update 2 was even better

[dawn falcon]

Also hardcapping carnivores is not a good idea.

[hallow spire]

^yep

[dawn falcon]

You should be able to choose your dinosaur without being limited for whatever reason. Just make carnivores hard to grow

[charred hare]

You could implement a "cooldown" so you wouldn't be able to log onto your other dinosaur for a half hour after being killed. Also why does it matter if you have the chance to spawn in as an adult afterwards?

[dawn falcon]

It supports revenge killing.

Doesn’t matter if you have a cool down

[hallow spire]

why would ppl want to wait half an hour to spawn as there other dino lol its just like the region spawns i dont think many ppl wait for the cooldown to go away they just spawn in a different region and deal with it same thing would happen if we were able to switch dinos, and it matters bcuz thats not how this game is supposed to work ur supposed to grow 1 dino to adulthood on 1 server and if it dies then u grow it again or pick something different

[charred hare]

Yeah it does, because you wouldn't be able to kill them on the spot with pinpoint accuracy. And without that ability, how does it support revenge killing anymore than what we have?

[charred hare]

The time it takes to run to where you died is the "cooldown", because by the time you get there, they will likely be gone, or healed to the point where you wouldn't be able to take them as a juvi.

[dawn falcon]

The difference with that and now is you don’t have the option to spawn as an adult. You spawn as a baby as you should.
Also a cooldown won’t matter as long as you have someone watching them to give you information. The only way this would work is by making the cooldown 45-60 minutes, and then you get the question “what’s the point?” It works just fine how it’s currently implemented, without it being useless and unnecessary

[hallow spire]

the spawn region cooldown already does that, if u can spawn as an adult thats just the game holding ur hand for ppl who dont feel like growing again which shouldnt be the case

[charred hare]

because there are too many carnivores

[dawn falcon]

Hardcapping factions is way too artificial to be good. It should be based on the game. If there’s naturally a cap based on food, competition, etc. it’ll cap on its own.

[dawn falcon]

Make herbivores fun to play then lol

[hallow spire]

lol

[charred hare]

but you'd still lose progress on one dino, and after you die on the second you'd have to grow two eventually

[dawn falcon]

There’s always going to be players who prefer carnivores over herbivores. You shouldn’t punish them for having that preference.

Hardcapping is overall a terrible idea.

Just let the game naturally cap the species.

[hallow spire]

u shouldnt even be able to grow 2 dinos on 1 server tho lol

[charred hare]

Why not?
Also, carnivores will always be preferred simply by their nature. Nerfing them to the ground or making herbivores broken is the definition of artificial

[dawn falcon]

But herbivores nor carnivores are broken though

And also it’s to balance

Whereas

Hardcapping is not

[hallow spire]

bcuz that would encourage revenge killing and if were going by the cooldown u suggested nobody is gonna wait for that and they would just spawn in as something else so there'd be no point of adding ur feedback to the game

[thin mantle]

Is someone seriously arguing for harcaps?

[dawn falcon]

Yeah

[hallow spire]

lol

[thin mantle]

because that's an insane implementation

[dawn falcon]

It’s terrible

[thin mantle]

You limit populations through food availability

[dawn falcon]

Imagine punishing players for preferring carnivores

[thin mantle]

That's the best way, which rn doesn't exist but will once U4 is dropped

Super simple

[dawn falcon]

Game should be governed naturally. Species should be capped based on food, water, competition, etc.

Which already exists but only in its simple form

Diets makes it more complex where you have to eat preferred prey to get your proteins, carbs, and lipids.