balance-feedback-discussion

[stark knoll]

neither it or carno are even close to being in allos league

unknown

[alpine plover]

Allo is like 2.8 tons right

[stark knoll]

yup

[spare badger]

They're not too far off

[stark knoll]

people are guessing cera will be between 1T and 1.6T but we wont know until we get it

[golden coral]

Yes and no. I'd say they're both the same and different. Cerato might be slower, but can turn aside easier. Carno can move faster, but is worse of responding to a swing.

[versed rune]

here we go with “cera and carno are small tiers”

[stark knoll]

imo cera and carno are pseudomids

definitely not small

but thats all just terminology

[golden coral]

Is teno mid or small?

[spare badger]

PseudoMid

[alpine plover]

Mid def

[stark knoll]

pseudomid if you use that category

[golden coral]

Because if teno is small, then carno and cera is right there. But if it's mid, then I guess cera and carno are mids as well.

[alpine plover]

it’s like the same weight as carno I think

[stark knoll]

otherwise its a mid

[alpine plover]

Can’t remember

[stark knoll]

almost yup

[spare badger]

It's like in between cera and carno

[stark knoll]

1.6T to 1.8T

[golden coral]

Mids on the smaller end then? :p

[alpine plover]

Close enough I guess

[spare badger]

Yea

[golden coral]

To be fair, I think we should stop just thinking in terms of size/weight and also the design of the animal

[versed rune]

I don’t know why we need to hyper-categorize everything. Just because we have pseudo apexes doesn’t mean we need to have pseudo mids too. The power gap between mids and so called “pseudo mids” is much smaller than the one between apexes and pseudo apexes

[versed rune]

This

[spare badger]

True

[alpine plover]

We could categorize teno as a small mid tier and such

[spare badger]

Well

Cera is gonna be a scavenging brawler
And teno is supposed to be a brawler too right?

[golden coral]

Hey, we agree on something! Nice! But yes, I think we need to start taking the critter into account more. A trike and a shant is not the same thing to hunt at all, any more than a kentro and a tenonto is. And so on.

[alpine plover]

Yeah teno is a brawler

[versed rune]

It’s tempting to call teno a pseudo mid tier sure, but then that makes people think that everything else in its general size range shouldn’t touch anything bigger than it

[hollow canyon]

Even the 1.6t estimate for Cerato is a bit iffy - it's based on a single tooth(in an animal known for having relatively some of the largest teeth among the theropods). Actual Ceratosaurus estimates are somewhere between 1t and 1.3t(1.3t being based on a skull).

[versed rune]

So calling teno a mid tier is more liberating

Just on the smaller end

[alpine plover]

I would honestly put cera at 1.6 tons, I think it’s a reasonable size for the game

[spare badger]

Ye

It's a game they'll change it a little for balance
As long as it's not too ridiculous

[hollow canyon]

Depends on what it's supposed to be doing - if it's meant to be able to go toe-to-toe with Carno then it will need every kg it can get.

Because the actual Cerato is much smaller than Carno.

[spare badger]

Ye

[versed rune]

See this is where weight being equal to health becomes a load of bullcrap

[spare badger]

Yesss

I hate it

It should be similar

Not the same

[versed rune]

How the hell is cera supposed to defend against carno if it’s weight has to be the same as it’s health?????

[stark knoll]

unless cera gets dmg resistance

somehow

[spare badger]

Like

[hollow canyon]

No, if 1t Cerato had an artificially increased health pool to be able to tank Carno for no reason it would be completely absurd.

[oak wind]

Cera doesn't fight Carno btw

[versed rune]

Carno would literally body the damn thing

[spare badger]

A head reduction

[oak wind]

At least

[spare badger]

Or like

[oak wind]

It dodges and attacks back

[spare badger]

A really useful special

[oak wind]

Like in legacy

[ocean wagon]

Imo I do think in a 1v1 cera should fend off a carno. Carno isn’t a brawler, cera is

[oak wind]

Cera isn't as well

[versed rune]

Cera should have the overall combat advantage against a carno because carno controls the conflict

And that’s a massive advantage

So in reality they’d be even

[stark knoll]

i wouldnt be opposed to cera having a reduced headshot modifier due to the crests

[spare badger]

Cera v carno should be cera favour
Just like teno v carno
Cause carno can run
And the others cant

[ocean wagon]

^

[stark knoll]

and its possible cera will have similar damage to carno as well, and id imagine itd be much more agile

[spare badger]

That's how the game should be balanced first and foremost

[alpine plover]

I’m supposing cera will have high fracture damage so it could definitely cripple the carno if it gets too cocky

[spare badger]

Yea
A tackle of sorts like in the concept art?

[oak wind]

Is Cera is nimble enough and has a good amount of stamina, this is fine to me. Take on Carno in a forest where it's mobility is reduced.

In the open

get hunted

But try to escape

[versed rune]

I wouldn’t even call that a teno advantage, cause carno can still kill it. The thing that makes teno/carno balanced is that teno can dispatch carno quickly. If cera can’t do that too then he’s fucked

[oak wind]

or lightly fight back.

Cera doesn't really have any attack abilities.

[spare badger]

Fair
With the new health one stun can mean death

[oak wind]

Possibly higher bleed than Carno though.

[spare badger]

Definitely higher bleed

[ocean wagon]

I however do think carno should be able to knock over a cera. But like a cera should be fast enough to just move out of the way

[stark knoll]

i guess what im trying to say is that its possible to balance cera/carno to be a 50/50 without inflating ceras health or size

[versed rune]

It would need to be super damn powerful

[alpine plover]

Hopefully it is tbh

[spare badger]

Yea
Like
45/55 ceras favour

[ocean wagon]

^^^

[alpine plover]

I was disappointed with legacy cera

[hollow canyon]

Cerato's main issue in the game might be Tenonto more so than Carno - with Cerato's weight it is getting knocked down with a tailslam/kick and... gl surviving that.

[ocean wagon]

cera in legacy was only decent in nonALT turn servers

[spare badger]

Yea

Will cera be faster than teno?

[oak wind]

I mean. Cerato is basically a shitty animal that looks cool though. You could give it some small damage reduction because of its thick skin/osteoderms, better bleed, stamina and agility than Carno.

[ocean wagon]

No, please no

Cera shouldn’t be

[alpine plover]

If cera can run from teno, it should definitely be able to fight back then

[spare badger]

Cause then how do we make the matchup cera favour

[valid sedge]

I think that the solution would be to give cera a strong bite, it should not have more hp than carno tho

[hollow canyon]

If it's not faster than a Tenonto it would better have a good enough stamina pool to get away from Tenonto

[ocean wagon]

Wait, is magy bigger than teno?

[spare badger]

No

[hollow canyon]

No

[oak wind]

It isn't.

[alpine plover]

Cera should definitely have above average endurance

[ocean wagon]

Oh ok

[hollow canyon]

Smaller by 300 kg

[versed rune]

Cera should just be more powerful than teno overall because I can’t see cera outrunning teno and actively hunting it

[spare badger]

Ye

[alpine plover]

Cera is also pretty beefy so there’s that

Robust man

[versed rune]

Mhm

[oak wind]

No

Cera is as thin as paper

[alpine plover]

What

[ocean wagon]

Just give cera injury dmg and a decent injury resistance

[spare badger]

I'd be fine with cera having damage reduction
Which will give it the illusion of higher health

[versed rune]

I’d say give cera a super fucking strong knockdown attack, but with more defensive style

[versed rune]

The isles cera is not thin as paper

[alpine plover]

Cera definitely feels more viable in a defensive perspective, due to its bite

[true ginkgo]

@valid sedge 100% agree. If an animal is introduced, it should have a natural competitor or predator.

[sturdy sundial]

you have taken the fish from the ptera, weakest dino in game no hunting skills. only skill is fishing. new update wipe fish out of rivers and starve the ptera we are all starving to death. Now thats what i call balance!

[ocean wagon]

I still like the idea of cera being able to have a lock jaw attack vs a ram attack

[oak wind]

Isle Cera is still thin in top view.

Cerato isn't robust in any reconstructions I've seen tbh. It is deep though.

[alpine plover]

This doesn’t really look paper thin

[stark knoll]

this is unintentional and being investigated

[oak wind]

It doesn't because you mostly see from sideway

[alpine plover]

It’s not over the top muscular, but it’s definitely not scrawny

[oak wind]

https://youtu.be/zDAr2DzXuak

[primal dove]

put him into the qa team. That´s how it should be

[versed rune]

😊 how kind

[oak wind]

Personally, I gotta disagree. Not all species should be able to hunt all others. There should be specialization.

[primal dove]

but to pose a threat at least

[oak wind]

1000 Herrera vs Rex?

[ocean wagon]

Stomp the yard 3

[primal dove]

which server

[versed rune]

The key word in what i said is “potentially”

[oak wind]

I mean

Should 1000 Herrera be a threat to a Rex?

[versed rune]

I mean

Yes????

[primal dove]

yea

[oak wind]

That's like 1000 merkets to a lion

[primal dove]

absolutely

[versed rune]

There’s a thousand of them??

[oak wind]

No?

But they're trampled.

[primal dove]

question

[versed rune]

We’re talking a video game

[oak wind]

All of them.

[versed rune]

Not realism.

[oak wind]

Can't do shit.

I mean

[primal dove]

should the rex be a threat to the 1000 herreras?

[oak wind]

That way it is balanced

Yes

But Herreras can flee

[versed rune]

The herreras are players. Human players. They’ll fight the rex because it’s fun.

[primal dove]

should 100 hyenas be a threat to a lion?

[versed rune]

They’re not actual animals that value their lives

[primal dove]

the typical isle player

[oak wind]

That's like 100 Alberts. So yes.

[ocean wagon]

3 hyenas are a threat to a solo lioness

[primal dove]

what... albert is a pseudo apex

[valid sedge]

8 hyenas are enough to kill a lion

[oak wind]

What?

No

It is smaller than Allo

It's a typical mid tier

[primal dove]

from the looks of the concept arts i´d say it´s bigger and more chonky

[oak wind]

Possibly more chonky

[primal dove]

we are getting off the road

[oak wind]

But still

[versed rune]

Pretttty sure alberto is bigger than allo. But it’s not a pseudo apex either. Alberto cannot go toe to toe with acro or sucho

So alberto is a large mid tier, but still a mid tier

[oak wind]

If they go for accurate lenght and such, what they usually do, it will be some a little bit smaller than Allo.

[primal dove]

yea, but back to the main question. Why shouldn´t a lot of the dinosaurs be a possible threat to other bigger dinos.

[oak wind]

Because the game is meant to become an ecosystem and not anything able to do anything.

That's legit what Dondi said.

[versed rune]

Just so we’re clear no one is saying a Herrera should be able to take down a rex by itself.

[spare badger]

Alberto is slightly larger

[oak wind]

Alberto is taller, less heavy and shorter.

[primal dove]

but that´s how it just works. A lot of small things match 1 big thing.

[oak wind]

So, it is smaller.

[alpine plover]

Remember how tiny Allo was compared to Alberto in legacy lol

[ocean wagon]

Wait that’s albertos actual size???

[oak wind]

Yes.

[ocean wagon]

Legacy was actually cracked out

[primal dove]

sub adult rex lol

[oak wind]

9 meters long for 2.6 tons.

While Allo is 9'7 for 2.9 tons.

[ocean wagon]

Legacy Albert was unnecessarily tall

[oak wind]

Just Albert is taller because Tyrannosaur leg anatomy.

[spare badger]

Alberto's are pretty fast cause of it

[oak wind]

Tyrannosaurs were fast for most of them

[spare badger]

Alberto's were also likely to be pack hunters

[ocean wagon]

The most id accept for Alberto pack limit would be 4

And that’s because their prey range consist of mid sized ceratopsians

[spare badger]

That's fair
Para will also likely be a food item

A hard one to take down

But one of them they ate irl I think

[ocean wagon]

In all fairness how fast would you guys like for para to be? (Using teno as a marker)

[spare badger]

Not sure

Alberto ate large hadros so itll be on its menu

It should be slower than Alberto definitely

It should be like a moose

[lament cloak]

depends on the sizes we get, they are about the same size though

[wintry mountain]

Both animals are around ~2800kg

[true ginkgo]

@ripe stirrup Would rather make the dodge effective as an animation, rather than giving Iframes.

[ripe stirrup]

@true ginkgo It seems to me that this is more difficult to implement than to give invulnerability and increase the cost of stamina

Dryo needs a unique ability that (must work) otherwise it's hypsy 2.0 with a 30 minute growth. What is evasion for? In order not to get hit, a small invulnerability gap will make this ability актуальной, given the Ping

I'm sorry, my English is bad, but I think you understood me correctly

[slim dragon]

I guess that's why burrowing is planned for Dryo

[ripe stirrup]

I thought this feature was only for Legacy, if the developers are going to change it, then there is no point in strengthening it, let the utahs rejoice in easy prey while they can..

[scenic heron]

Evrima burrowing is going to be much more complex than legacy, kind of like bob burrowing

[alpine plover]

@solemn shore utah makes no sense being 700 kg

its a lightly built raptor, pachy is meant to be heavier.

and it was slowed down so the animation looks better

and its stamina is fine

You just listed random buffs

[spare badger]

Well
Irl Utah was 700 kg

But that Utah is bigger irl than in game

So ehh

[true ginkgo]

Source please.

[spare badger]

Google?

Idk it was a long time ago that I learned that

[wintry mountain]

Utah is 500kg going off the biggest specimen

[true ginkgo]

Largest I can even find is 450kg. But havn't looked that hard.

[sinful cove]

700kg utah

The thing is scrawnier than the 500kg animal its based off of

[lament cloak]

700 kg utah

[true ginkgo]

The in game one is considerably skinnier, and if the head is lowered to the correct position, physically smaller than the irl utah.

[solemn shore]

then he would have 700 hp

Kg=Hp now

[lament cloak]

thats alot

4 carno bites

[sinful cove]

700hp utah would have been good before the carno bite nerf

But since carno bite is lower it is too tanky

I used to think 750 was a good spot for utah health prior to the other dinosaurs' changes

[solemn shore]

thinking this way

[solemn shore]

it makes sense

[lament cloak]

no it doesn't, utah is meant to be a squishy pack hunter that takes on mid tiers by not getting hit, not something that tanks hits

[solemn shore]

But:
Teno alt claw: 175 damage
Utah life: 450

[spare badger]

Sorry
I have no clue where I got the 700 from
Perhaps it was pounds and I was being dumb
My apologies

[solemn shore]

I'm saying 700 kg would really be too much

[lament cloak]

oh ok, I misunderstood

[spare badger]

It was an interview from Jim Kirkland
He said over 600 pounds
I was being daft
Apologies

Gotta remember people in America use pounds
I'm Canadian and dont usually

[solemn shore]

I changed the feedback a little bit: #balance-feedback

but it's a fact that utah needs a buff

[spare badger]

How much does Utah weigh now?

[solemn shore]

450

[spare badger]

That's a fair estimate

How fast is it?

[solemn shore]

Kg = Hp, so 450hp too

[solemn shore]

46,6km/h

[spare badger]

Well
That makes sense too

Hmm
I feel like Utah needs something small

[solemn shore]

Damage, Hp and mobility

[spare badger]

Only slightly faster
Or
A more damaging pounce

[stark knoll]

currently the inertia changes hit utah way too hard, unintentionally too

so hopefully we see that get tweaked in the future

[vagrant mural]

what were the inertia changes even aiming to do

[stark knoll]

im not the one to ask sadly

[spare badger]

Yea
Smalls shouldnt have that much difficulty turning
That's what the tails are for

[vagrant mural]

pain

[lament cloak]

make it so things feel heavier

probably

[vagrant mural]

thats kind of lame reasoning tbh

and the things it affects the most aren't even that heavy to begin with

[lament cloak]

450 kg is pretty heavy

[spare badger]

It's a higher estimate

[solemn shore]

Utah doesn't need high damage, the bleed is good, it's just too fragile

[solemn shore]

Fantasy game

[lament cloak]

its supposed to be fragile, its just supposed to not get hit if you play currectly aswell, so its inertia needs to be turned down a little so it can actually not get hit

[spare badger]

Nah
The higher estimates for Utah was about 450
For the really big ones

[vagrant mural]

450 being relatively heavy by our standards doesn't justify what is supposed to be an agile nimble hunter thats supposed to duck in and out of attacks feeling like a bus

[solemn shore]

🕵️

[spare badger]

And if it's too bulky it'll start leaving it's niche
Let's just wait for pachy first before we change Utah too much

[vagrant mural]

I'd say just revert inertia all together, it really doesn't add anything other than frustration from my pov

[spare badger]

Inertia should be lowered

[primal dove]

it just should get more stam and the bleed system should be reworked

[spare badger]

I still don't know how it works yet

[primal dove]

i already made a suggestion in #balance-feedback but not many ppl saw it so ill probably just repost it and post it here

[spare badger]

How did they change bleed in the new update??

[alpine plover]

Thats too bulky

[primal dove]

they just lowered everythings max blood pool

btw found my suggestion what do you think about this?

Idea for the new bleed since it´s nowhere near the one described in the roadmap: You can stack bleed with attacks/special abilities ,for example 1 carno bite fills ur blood drop to lets say 5%. The stages of bleed are the following: Blood drop filled to 50%: You slowly really slowly start losing stamina and your stamina regenaration also gets slowed down. Blood drop filled to 75%: Your speed decreases slightly and you start taking damage over time. (2 times slower than starving/dehydrating).Blood drop filled to 100%: You collapse and stay unconcious for a decent amount of time (5 minutes maximum).

If you have reached a certain threshold of your hp you also might die because of the bleed damage.

The lower your stamina is the faster you lose blood since your heart has to pump more oxygen through your blood and body to keep your organs and limbs healthy and functioning.

The bleeding damage should just be a safe lock so that herds or pack members can´t just merge around a collapsed target and defend it until it wakes up. That´s why it starts later so you can´t just bleed out things after you got some bites in like in legacy.

Locational damage should also affect how much bleed you lose.

Remember, it shouldn´t be like in legacy where you just get some bites in and bleed your target out, stamina drain should be really really slow and give teno ,for example which heavily relies on stamina, a time window to fight its attackers and if it doesn´t use that time window well, then it´s doomed.

Overall the bleeding system would impact active combat more instead of it being just a problem you´ll have to deal later with.

[solemn shore]

700 ~ 550

[safe anchor]

i dont think the stats on utah are all that bad when it comes to speed and turning,base damage could do with a small boost, utahs pounce being focused around bleed instead of raw damage output is a good thing the bleed numbers that it does with pounce could use a small buff thats my current thoughts on it.

[alpine plover]

Utah isn’t even meant to hunt carno or teno.

So it being poor against them is good.

Its like buffing hypsi so it can fight utah

[vagrant mural]

solo, no obviously not

[primal dove]

WHAT

a pack of utahs should be able to kill a carno or teno

[alpine plover]

What? Its the same thing

[vagrant mural]

packs of utahs should absolutely be taking on solo tenos when given the chance, and carno is a threat thats close enough for packs to realistically be able to kill some

[alpine plover]

Yes?

[vagrant mural]

or at least 1 while in a relatively large

[vagrant mural]

_

[alpine plover]

and?

It isn’t

[primal dove]

teno maybe carno definitely

[vagrant mural]

you do realize that completely contr- oh wait I'm talking to dio

[alpine plover]

How?

Its 450kg?

[primal dove]

not solo

[alpine plover]

Well then of course it should

[primal dove]

dont think every utah wants to be able to 1v1 everything i keep saying this

[alpine plover]

5 utahs should be able to take on a carno/teno:

[primal dove]

ok, good, missunderstood u before then mb

[true ginkgo]

packs of utahs can still take both tenoto and stego from testing.

[cedar shore]

@solemn shore While i do feel like utah needs a buff, 700 kg sounds a bit too much imo and isnt the main problem with raptors

[alpine plover]

yeah its just a random buff

with no thought put in it

[cedar shore]

it absolutely needs a stronger bite though

[primal dove]

no, it´s a bleeder

[tacit oriole]

While this is a neat idea I think people who are low on Stam and bleeding are already in a really bad place, adding more mechanics to punish them would make bleed OP in these scenarios

[cedar shore]

They nerfed the bite to encentivice pouncing even though pouncing is a must for killing larger prey, all the damage nerf did was make it harder to hunt small game

[primal dove]

and it´s way better being a bleeder trust me

[alpine plover]

utah 2 shots dryo???

[true ginkgo]

Pounce, inflict bleed, disengage before your stam runs out.

Alternate with the pack until it drops.

[solemn shore]

700 ~ 550

[vagrant mural]

to the head yeah

[cedar shore]

Its a bleeder for large prey yeah

[tacit oriole]

3 shots unless you get a headshot

[vagrant mural]

it like 3 shots it normally

[cedar shore]

The weight = health change was so stupid

why

just why

[alpine plover]

Utah shouldn’t be able to pin pachy so, anything above 500kg is a big no

[alpine plover]

Thats fine

[primal dove]

yea, it´s just that bleed should at least somehow influence the active combat

[alpine plover]

550kg utah is just… no

450 kg at max

if Utah was able to pin pachy what would be the point of playing pachy

[cedar shore]

still 3 shot by carno, 1 shot by charge, and practicly 0 health after a tail slam

[alpine plover]

And?

[true ginkgo]

The weight = health change makes sense. And utahs are still strong enough to fight stegos in a group.

[alpine plover]

450 kg is fine

[cedar shore]

Its not that much

[primal dove]

it definitely should pin it, pachy has a little stun animation if it doesnt hit a "bite" and if the utah gets hit by it it´s dead cuz it nealry oneshot and stuns u

[true ginkgo]

450kg is fine for the rat utah we have.

[cedar shore]

it doesnt make sense, they are 2 entirely different stats, merging them together is only gona make balacing harder in the future

[vagrant mural]

you do realize 90% of utahs cannot land pounces on anything that isn't a stego mid fight right

[thin mantle]

But it weighs more and is proportionately stronger, why would it get pinned

[primal dove]

balancing

[alpine plover]

And?

[alpine plover]

Wdym pouncing is easy.

[vagrant mural]

just dodge the pounce, and punish accordingly

[true ginkgo]

Because larger and heavier animals have more health. Having them separate was causing really weird issues with growth, where 500kg stegos and deinos had a tiny fraction of a 500kg utahs health.

[thin mantle]

No my point is why balance Pachy to get nullified if two utahs are in its general vicinity

[alpine plover]

Cant really dodge a pack of utahs but alright

[vagrant mural]

it is, so is skimming, people still can't do both for some reason

[primal dove]

i mean they are nearly the same weight and that utah comes at u with 48km/h, it´ll just knock it over with that force

[alpine plover]

The isle

[true ginkgo]

I don't like carno charge one shotting utah.

[thin mantle]

How much does Pachy weigh

[primal dove]

u are dead anyway that´s the point

[vagrant mural]

utah would have been dead regardless if it got hit by a charge

[alpine plover]

So you want phacy to be fodder?

[spare badger]

Unknown

[thin mantle]

Yeah finishing off the target was an extra but necessary step

[primal dove]

dunno but the difference isnt that big

[cedar shore]

So? its still balance. Just becuase a creature is big doesnt automatickly mean its tough and durable. Weight should represent its real life weight, aswell as all the status effects, while health is just its tankiness

[alpine plover]

I’m guessing it might be around 500kg, maybe a little less

[true ginkgo]

You could live if a friendly lept on and distracted it.

Carno charge should instantly kill dryo, but not utah.

[vagrant mural]

kinda? I guess if using your brain to actively dodge a high risk high reward ability makes you fodder sure

[thin mantle]

Pachy’s model is both larger and meatier so I’d imagine it would be quite a bit heavier too

[alpine plover]

Pouncing is incredibly easy

[tacit oriole]

I'd like to see pachy at 650kg

[alpine plover]

Especially on a less mobile 🦔

[vagrant mural]

lmao

pachy at 650 kg is just no

[spare badger]

Lemme google it real quick to get an approximate

[alpine plover]

I like 500kg pachy

[tacit oriole]

But I want it :(

[thin mantle]

Why

[tacit oriole]

Gimme meaty pachy

[primal dove]

gotta agree with that one actually ,it also was a good opportunity for utahs to get some pounces on it which sometimes even led to surviving such a lethal ram

[alpine plover]

Because he wants utah to one shot pachy

[vagrant mural]

500 kg is fine and doesn't make it 150 kg heavier

[true ginkgo]

I mean what's the point of playing a big slow growing animal if it's not tough and durable.

Even with the new weights, a max utah pack can still beat a stego most of the time.

[primal dove]

pachy oneshots utah so?

[vagrant mural]

both essentially fuck each other if eithers abilities land

[thin mantle]

Man that’s dumb, Pachy is insanely slow by comparison to Utah. It needs the higher damage and health to compensate for its severally lacking mobility

[primal dove]

Yes, that´s how it should be

[alpine plover]

One is a lot easier to land

[vagrant mural]

it can have higher health, and it does higher damage

[alpine plover]

Pachy isn’t choosing to fight utah

Why should it get one shot?

[vagrant mural]

unless it yknow, does

[primal dove]

imagine an utah or even 2 utahs just being latched onto the side of a pachy and it just keeps going

[alpine plover]

Its slower?

[primal dove]

or even 2 utahs

[tacit oriole]

IRL pachy was up to one ton, wasn't it?

[thin mantle]

It’d be fine if the Utah was on top but not pinning it

[alpine plover]

looks fine

[vagrant mural]

slower animals can attack faster ones

[spare badger]

In saurian

Pachy is 450 kg

[cedar shore]

Thats not what i meant. There just isnt a reason to forcefully match weight and health. it will only make balancing harder. THe devs can simply change a dinosaurs HP so it would be optimally balanced.

[alpine plover]

Do you know what choosing a fight means

[primal dove]

2 utahs should pin down a pachy then otherwise it´s just scuffed

[alpine plover]

You can’t choose a fight if you’re slower

[thin mantle]

Honestly realism arguments and stats don’t matter@much in this game

[spare badger]

It's just for a baseline

[true ginkgo]

And changing an adult dinos HP messes with the HP of its younger stages. So you then end up with a younger stages stats not making sense for its size.

[thin mantle]

That’s like a Diablo having the same health and damage as a Carno

[spare badger]

So in game it'll be 500kg I'm guessing

[vagrant mural]

I mean technically you can, its just the other animal generall controls the interaction

[alpine plover]

You can’t???

[tacit oriole]

Man internet sources are all over the place. Seen everything fr 350 kg to 2000 for pachy

[true ginkgo]

2000 pachy

[tacit oriole]

Ikr

[alpine plover]

If you’re slower, you can’t catch them.

what the fuck

[cedar shore]

??? dude its still better than forcefully matching weight and health

[alpine plover]

You can’t choose when to fight

2000kg pachy

[tacit oriole]

Are we getting Diablo?

[vagrant mural]

have you ever seen a teno attack a goddam utah or carno, or a utah attacking a pre-nerf dryo

[true ginkgo]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5XXYKnWEAAjnpH.png

[primal dove]

WTF

[spare badger]

Highest I found was 1000
But 500 for the isle seems fair
Damn pachy was NOT that big wtf

[cedar shore]

hahahhaa

[vagrant mural]

lmao retro pachy

[primal dove]

realism arguments in a nutshell lmao

[alpine plover]

No?

The utah just runs

[spare badger]

Bigger than rex wtf
I remember these

[tacit oriole]

Pachy replacing trike as herbi apex: confirmed

[thin mantle]

We’re getting every Dino from legacy over time

[vagrant mural]

and then the teno just follows it

[primal dove]

also wth is a teno running as fast as an utah, makes no sense imo

[thin mantle]

Stego:

[alpine plover]

Just run????

[tacit oriole]

Utah can outrun teno lol

[thin mantle]

It doesn’t

[primal dove]

it does read the patchnotes :3

[vagrant mural]

wait seriously?

[primal dove]

yup

[tacit oriole]

It did for a few hours lol, but the second patch fixed it

[primal dove]

or just look up ingame

[vagrant mural]

there's genuinely no way

[alpine plover]

Stop lying….

[fallen chasm]

Okay, realistically, lets talk Cera. Cera and Carno may inevitably be the two main land predators of Evrima, so lets talk about what the Cera could bring to the table to be at least level with the Carno as far as niche and balance. Carno should be the small game run-down predator, but at the moment its a tank. How does the Cera now fit in and how does balance be adjusted?

[alpine plover]

Teno is 40 kmh

utah is 46

Teno does not outrun Utah

[tacit oriole]

Teno is 40.5 Utah is 46.8

[primal dove]

k well then they actually fixed it mb

[vagrant mural]

^

[alpine plover]

They never fixed it?

It was always like that

[tacit oriole]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/876413272285397076/876451255789166632/unknown.png

[thin mantle]

Cera beats up Carno in a 1v1

[spare badger]

45/55 cera favour

[cedar shore]

Im saving that ty

[thin mantle]

It kinda needs to overpower Carno because of its slower speed

[tacit oriole]

I've been too distracted playing on official to do all the bleed stuff sorry

Except bloodpools match weight like HP

[cedar shore]

Is this 100% accurate?

[tacit oriole]

Unless I did a db it is

Dumb*

[cedar shore]

nice

[tacit oriole]

Times are rounded a bit, but they are within a couple of seconds

[primal dove]

well then it was always like that mb, someone just came up with it and I thought it was true lol

[spare badger]

I've had this discussion ABT cera v carno/teno like 5 hours ago in this channel

[tacit oriole]

Note that food and water don't affect blood or stamina regen

But blood affect stamina and healing speeds

Also last 10% of blood regens at double speed

There's also a new mechanic where some low-strength attacks like Utah bite do not always inflict bleed (against a stego, only headshots inflict bleed)

[dawn falcon]

What’s this convo about

[fallen chasm]

Drop me a link to the discussion, I'd like to hear it. I'm a little biased towards Cera but I like a good balanced discussion

[spare badger]

Just like
Scroll up to 5 hours ago

@fallen chasm Here is where the convo started about

[alpine plover]

Cerato isnt a allo???

[spare badger]

Bro just read the whole conversation

I'm not gonna argue about this again

[alpine plover]

And there’s no evidence of allo consistently hunting stego

[tacit oriole]

Why read it when I can just react to that one message

[alpine plover]

Yeah smh let’s bully

[true ginkgo]

A pack of three of so allos should be able to harass and bleed a stego to death.

[spare badger]

I'll let yall read the whole thing
If you don't please don't go and reignite the argument
I know it's a large ask but like please

[alpine plover]

I will now bring back the argument

[primal dove]

yea, allthough i wonder how exactly

[tacit oriole]

I will awkwardly attempt to divert it by talking about Utah bleed numbers

Or not, brb

[alpine plover]

No?

Unless allo is a 4 hour growth, thats unfun for the stego.

[safe anchor]

utah can still kill steggo just need to bleed it out

[tacit oriole]

So like a carno could a week ago?

[safe anchor]

play smart and careful

[alpine plover]

That at least takes a large amount of utahs

[true ginkgo]

I'm expecting it will be 3-3.5 hours.

[primal dove]

they are three tho. 3 allos=1 stego 8 Utahs =1 apex

[tacit oriole]

Only if the stego is dumb and doesn't know about trees

[alpine plover]

This isn’t a calculator

its a survival game

[primal dove]

it´s just how it should be

[true ginkgo]

Utahs can definitely bleed a stego out in the current patch with patience.

[primal dove]

u surviver

[tacit oriole]

Full length, 18s pounce does ~10% bleed.

[safe anchor]

you'd be surprised how many people dont have a clue about it or bucking

[primal dove]

actually all i think utah needs now is more stamina ,the inertia removed and maybe let targets who have been pounced before lose bleed faster from attacks

[tacit oriole]

We spent a whole afternoon trying to work out a strat to bleed out stegos as Utah. You can do it away from trees, but if they are smart and camp in a fern cluster in plains you can't even pounce them

1 carno 3 utahs can do it though

If the carno is good enough

[true ginkgo]

The tree dismount definitely needs work. As it's far too easy to just sit against a tree and instantly dislodge utahs.

[wintry mountain]

The tree tactic is a valid one but uh, have to weigh in and say its a bit silly how you can just tap a movement key and become invicinble

[tacit oriole]

The big issue is stego can swing through trees and ferns while Utah pounce hitbox preferentially hits them instead of dinos

[alpine plover]

Nah

[true ginkgo]

I'd definitely like stegos attack to just cancel if it hits a tree.

[primal dove]

I think utahs should just drop, it´s way to too stupid that a tree can be ur killer

[solemn shore]

Utah pin carno 60%

[alpine plover]

8 utahs? Thats a pitiful amount.

[solemn shore]

[wintry mountain]

Environmental use should still be heavily situational imho

Simply walking into it shouldnt cc a utah

[primal dove]

it´s a whole pack tho

[tacit oriole]

Fern camping pre-patch wasn't an issue because bite/slash could still deal decent bleed, now it's pounce only

[alpine plover]

It should take 20 utahs to reliably take down a apex.

[alpine plover]

And?

Utah should have limits, it isnt god.

[primal dove]

and?

[dawn falcon]

Frumpkin

[true ginkgo]

Like sure, camp against a tree. But if you try to swing it will just block your attack.

[primal dove]

say that about rex

[dawn falcon]

I’m genuinely curious

[alpine plover]

Repeating what I said isn’t very clever

[primal dove]

no

[alpine plover]

Rex isn’t in game.

[tacit oriole]

It won't right now, but it should

[dawn falcon]

How much meat does a carnivore have to eat? It’s own body weight?

[solemn shore]

he does that

[true ginkgo]

I might go and suggest it.

[primal dove]

u just said it should take 20 utahs to take down a rex

[solemn shore]

Carno 60% has 445 kg

I test

[alpine plover]

Its just an example

[golden coral]

I have to ask. Did this strategy contain tricks, such as pretending to give up to make the stego feel safe and leave it's "hideout" and similar ideas?

[alpine plover]

A better way to put it is that it should take 15 utahs to reliably kill a stego.

[fallen chasm]

PoT doesn't do a ton right, but I do like the fact that Dinos run faster downhill and slower uphill, and I think that sort of physics could do well in game here. Also, floating particles wen

[primal dove]

20 rexes will and are truly a pitiful amount tho

[tacit oriole]

Well, it was a private server so not really, but even camping a single tree is problematic so

[alpine plover]

What?….

[fathom obsidian]

lets do 40 why not

[solemn shore]

he gains 200 kg very fast

[fathom obsidian]

are we throwing random numbers?

[alpine plover]

No

[golden coral]

Yes, but you get my point, correct? In a survival situation, where it's not just testing combat, there are potential ways to shift how the engagement is looking and going. So unless you take such into account, you're not getting a fully accurate picture.

[alpine plover]

Im carefully picking amount above utahs pack limit that it can realistically reach

15 good utahs could exist for a decent amount of time

[stark knoll]

how much you want it to or how much it does?

since currently 6-8 utahs can reliably kill a stego via bleed

[alpine plover]

and yeah those guys should be able to take down a stegosaurus

[alpine plover]

How much I want it to

in the future

[tacit oriole]

I don't think the mindgames you are thinking of are as effective as you think they might be

[alpine plover]

He isn’t wrong

[golden coral]

I know for a fact that they are. I've done it vs tenos back when they hid in water and were inedible if they died there.

[alpine plover]

in a 1v1 You have to fight the other person

in a real game, you can escape.

[golden coral]

Most people will not just stand in that "hideout"; they'll either try to log, or move on and get food/water, or just escape.

[alpine plover]

If you get low as teno vs a carno in a 1v1 you have to stay and fight

In a real game you’ll probably run away

[tacit oriole]

Stego mains are very familiar with parking and waiting for carnivores to give up

[golden coral]

They are, but even they grow bored, or will need food/water and so on.

And if you can trick them into risking it, it's enough oftentimes

They won't neccesarily believe you're gone, but they might believe they can make it out

[tacit oriole]

Note that stego drink time got buffed this patch

Everyone expect deino is 30min now

[golden coral]

At the very least, I'd like to see you try those sort of mindgames before deciding how encounters work or do not work

Is that buff?

Or am I misreading what you just wrote

[tacit oriole]

Used to be 20min

Pretty sure

And Utah was longer I thought

[golden coral]

Really? Never counted, just always felt very fast for an animal that was supposed to go out to plains and nom bushes, to run back to river every so often xD

I get why with deino but still, I'd feel like stegos should rather have long water times so they can migrate around, with their amazing speed ^^

But even so, 10 min difference is.. not that much

Granted, increased hunger drains would be great for utahs so they have that time

But as for the mindgames themselves, I'm inclined to think you need to really try it out. Even people that are patient are only so much

[tacit oriole]

I'm just not sure what scenario you could catch a stego in that would make it vulnerable

Sure out of ferns it's not invincible, but fern clumps aren't that far apart

[last crest]

the herbivores are way too over powered, 3 grown Tenos just killed everyone on the map... hunted down our pack of carnos and killed us all first, then when i spawned in south, they came their and killed everyone there too, even their own species :/

[tacit oriole]

Good tenos are really hard to fight as carno this patch

If they aren't dumb enough to let you charge them then it's kinda poopy

[last crest]

they too strong, and fast, with lots of stam

[tacit oriole]

Carno/Utah mixpacks wreck tenos though, if they are smart and coordinated

It doesn't help that tenos outnumber carnivores and are usually in bigger packs

And often have stegos on call

[last crest]

SHOULD REALLY MAKE A SERVER WITH FAST GROWNS, 1 HOUR TO GET FULLY GROWN, 30 MINS FOR SMALL CREATURES, MAYBE 2 HOURS FOR LARGE

[golden coral]

@tacit orioleI would say it's partially in the setup as well, depending on how many utahs you have, and how you think ahead. I'm not saying it's easy, but try it as an excercise. Go on your test server, put the stego in whatever good spot. Then imagine all kinds of different approaches, setups, and so on. And ask yourself, what does the stego know, how can you manipulate what the stego can find out, and what do you think the stego is most likely to do in any given situation from the moment you engage, or even before if you think it might be on the move.

[tacit oriole]

I wish, we have no control over grow timed

[last crest]

or give us option to change it on our own servers at least

[true ginkgo]

suggested it.

[alpine plover]

Not that fast

[last crest]

its a really epic game, but lacking the options to customise to make it how we want

[alpine plover]

40 for utah, 1 hour and 30 for carno/teno

3 for stego/deino

[last crest]

if you grow faster, less bothered about dying, makes people play more, and have more fun

there sometime barely enough food on map

[golden coral]

@true ginkgoYou'd still be able to attack "outwards" right? So like, one side to the rocks, or one side to the tree, but attack the other side?

[tacit oriole]

If utahs get punished with a stagger when they pounce a tree, stegos should be punished with a 0,5s effort to extract their thago from it imo

[golden coral]

Sounds reasonable

[tacit oriole]

If pachy can headbut trees to get fruits stego should be able to thago it too

[golden coral]

I'd like a slightly better camera.. "control" for that, because it's at times hard to know where exactly the camera is vs where you're looking

But otherwise, I'm fine with stego getting "stunned" if it just swings into rocks or trees or stuff

[last crest]

be nice to have a first person camera option

[golden coral]

Zoom in kind of works?

[true ginkgo]

Utah could walk up from the terrain side and bite away while the stego flails against it.

[dawn falcon]

There is

You have to zoom all the way in. It’s just

The camera placement is wonky

So you phase into your body

[last crest]

ah ok

[golden coral]

Not sure how you mean there to be honest :p Maybe I'm just thinking of it from the wrong angle as it were. But if I'm having my side to a tree, the utah can't attack from that side either, much less so if it's a rock for that matter?

[dawn falcon]

If the camera was on your head though, you’d zoom into your head

Which I want

[last crest]

yes

[golden coral]

@woeful walrusFine by me. I don't know why stegos can run as much in the first place honestly, it's a stego. Why are you running around... xD

[woeful walrus]

i have more of an issue with tenos

[golden coral]

Teno I think it's fine, it's supposed to have gotten a stam nerf so it can't just both run and then fight

But it has to choose

[woeful walrus]

especially that a pack of 2 just wiped all of pond

[golden coral]

But stego has stupid runtime for some reason

[true ginkgo]

Stego stand facing the tree ready to tap the rotate button to instant dismount. Utah scrapes against the tree to bite at the stegos face.

Stego rotates to swing, and utah flees back round the tree while the stego swing cancels on the terrain.

[golden coral]

Oh, you mean it'd bite through the tree or so?

[true ginkgo]

You can scrape close to the trees and not phase through them.

but if you try to, the stego swings through the entire tree and kills you

[tacit oriole]

Bite does 0.5% bleed against stego head btw (standing multiplier)

So sure if you can get 200 bites in without getting touched

Stegos can just bite you back if utahs go for that

[golden coral]

Stego bite dumb! :p

[true ginkgo]

I mean I can unsuggest stegos attack cancelling on trees.

If you would rather it phased through

[tacit oriole]

No way

[true ginkgo]

😛

[golden coral]

Hah xD

[tacit oriole]

I'd like to see the pause at the end of the slash animation removed for utahs, too

It's worse than tenos get

[golden coral]

You tried to do the alt 180 and then another alt directly after that straight forward?

[tacit oriole]

Hmm, actually haven't

[golden coral]

Try, let me know if you notice something, compared to just doing alts straight forward normally

[tacit oriole]

Will do

Alt-bite is still not amazing for bleed, it's only slightly better than bite

It doesn't seem to get headshot multipliers properly, but it is good for preventing regen on stego body

[golden coral]

Did you notice any difference in attack speed at any point?

[tacit oriole]

Not outside carno alt-bite

[golden coral]

Hm

[tacit oriole]

But I wouldn't be confident that I would notice small changes siy

[golden coral]

@tacit orioleFrom what I noticed. If I just do altbite after altbite forwards, it takes x long. If I do one altbite to turn around, and another altbite forward from there, I can "chain" those two for a quicker second altbite.

Not perhaps useful for any stego, but another utah or similar chasing you, it might make a difference, if it's not just some strange thing on my side that causes it for me

[tacit oriole]

Oh, I see what you are asking. Haven't had the chance to test that, and won't be able to for a while

Not at home atm

[golden coral]

No worries, but do let me know if you try, since I'm curious if it's a thing or just some weird bug or so for me.

[turbid hazel]

but you gotta wonder do they actually read suggestions

then again i still prefer this over legacy. legacy is uh. whoever can assride the best

stego def didn't need a buff at all

i barely got attacked before.

[tacit oriole]

I hope so, some things we have suggested have come through without being on the roadmap

[turbid hazel]

i've literally never even died as stego before patch, now this and it's going to be impossible unless i try to die

[tacit oriole]

Once you are FG it take carno/Utah mixpacks or another stego to kill you

Even 2 deinos aren't really an issue unless you go swimming with them

[turbid hazel]

only thing that can kill a stego reliably is another stego

[tacit oriole]

I was fighting a really good 5 carno pack before NA1 shat itself, they might have gotten me if they didn't make any mistakes

But it only takes 1 mistake for them to be dead or nearly dead

[turbid hazel]

which personally makes sense to me

[woeful walrus]

Me and 1 other deino easy killed 2 stegos

[turbid hazel]

those stegos probably sucked..

[woeful walrus]

We jumped it from Both sides

[turbid hazel]

i easily bullied 2 deinos as a single stego

[woeful walrus]

Nah they wiped all of pond😂

[turbid hazel]

that's not hard to do

[tacit oriole]

Now stegos can just outrun deinos if you die to one it's all your fault

[turbid hazel]

you did something smart which is why you won

[woeful walrus]

Stegos and tenos are unbalanced

[tacit oriole]

Before the nerf stegos couldn't disengage deinosz made it way more risky

[dawn falcon]

What hell no

[woeful walrus]

I guess

[turbid hazel]

the stegos put themselves in a situation that let you do that

[golden coral]

I think there was that one vid showing a deino could actually "run down" the stego from an ambush and kill it :p

[turbid hazel]

i always make sure that i can't be pinned

[woeful walrus]

They trapped us from both sides of river we had no other option

[dawn falcon]

Stegos are apexes that can be killed by Utah packs

Tenos have to choose either to attack, defend, or run. Doing multiple will destroy your stam and make you an easy kill

[turbid hazel]

teno needs a stam buff

bad

[tacit oriole]

Yeah. Lunge inside its head and alt-bite to slow, stego can't get away

[golden coral]

Also utahs are still very good vs stego, and if a pack of carnos can hunt a stego, then it's fine too. If it actually takes a pack as it should.

[woeful walrus]

A teno out stamina me while I was carno

[tacit oriole]

Now though if a deino tries it you just run forward and get your tail in the deinos head

[turbid hazel]

teno is a fast, agile animal made for long distance

i see carno as something made for short bursts of speed for ambushing

(though running around all the time is fun)

[tacit oriole]

Teno has 10s more sprint but is slower, and they need Stam to fight. Shouldn't be an issue unless they catch you trying to transit

[woeful walrus]

Yes I get that but we did ambush it and everything and 2 tenos killed 5 carnos

Granted not all of us were adults

[turbid hazel]

that's probably why

[tacit oriole]

I think I know the teno who was in that fight, they are pretty godly

Was it last night at like 8pm?

[woeful walrus]

3 of us were and the tenos had enough Stam to chase us down and fight

[turbid hazel]

way back when it was just utah and teno, i was a single teno and i killed like 4 out of 9 utahs chasing me

[woeful walrus]

It was like an hour or 2 ago

[tacit oriole]

Oh, then no

[woeful walrus]

They were godly tho

They wiped pond after too

[turbid hazel]

i don't see why teno lost so much stam

[woeful walrus]

Even sub stegos and other tenos

[tacit oriole]

Teno has a much higher skill ceiling than carno imo

[turbid hazel]

teno is still really fun afaik

i also don't know why turn rates were even touched-

utah's turning was fine where it was, so was basically everything else

[woeful walrus]

Utah feels sluggish now

[turbid hazel]

which it shouldn't...at all

[golden coral]

Inertia will be worked on, or possibly removed, so it'll get better

[tacit oriole]

Agreed

[turbid hazel]

i hope so

[tacit oriole]

Hope so

[turbid hazel]

i do look forward to the diets

[golden coral]

Yes!

[turbid hazel]

the gameplay loop introduced will be great

and it'll definitely encourage much more active gameplay

you might actually see juvis doing something other than sacrificing themselves

[tacit oriole]

We need a bigger roster and higher player caps if dinos are going to be locked into niches

[turbid hazel]

and idk, maybe not their...gamemode idea of having apexes in a different gamemode

just give us survival and sandbox/deathmatch

it's all we want

i guess they don't want to deal with trying to balance that (which you can)

[woeful walrus]

I say either carnivores get buffed or herbis nerfed their play style allows too much aggro leading to hunting for sport

[tacit oriole]

I'd love more control over grow time and gamemodes so we can run Deathmatch servers without needing to micromanage it

[golden coral]

Bigger roster?! We got 55 playables confirmed :p

[turbid hazel]

i personally have no problem with hunting for sport

[woeful walrus]

I do it’s unrealistic

[tacit oriole]

In game not planned haha

[turbid hazel]

people will always do it

it's not something you can prevent

[woeful walrus]

I should not have to worry about a teno wiping a whole area

[golden coral]

As for bigger player cap, that would be nice, but... not sure game/servers can handle much more as it stands at least

[woeful walrus]

I say increase stamina usage of running for tenos

[tacit oriole]

I'd like to see teno stamina regen nerfed a bit

[woeful walrus]

So they can’t chase for miles

[golden coral]

Ah. But yeah, we're going to have a lot so it should be just fine!

[turbid hazel]

i am just

really really hoping

that apexes won't be limited to one gamemode

i don't know who thought that would be a good idea to even suggest

[woeful walrus]

Stego is apex

[golden coral]

And see how much trouble it's causing :p

[turbid hazel]

stego shouldn't have been added until way later

[tacit oriole]

Psuedo-apex I think

[golden coral]

Agreed. Stego was a mistake, but we all know that by now

[turbid hazel]

it's fine how it is, it just isn't meant for this roster

it's a matter of time

[dawn falcon]

Too late to remove stego now

[tacit oriole]

Stego was in a good place before the last patch, it was high risk high reward for carnos

[turbid hazel]

balancing it for the current roster means making it not feel like stego, and then having to go through the effort of reverting these changes

[dawn falcon]

Carnos also shouldn’t be hunting stego

[turbid hazel]

agreed.

[woeful walrus]

Now it’s untouchable

[turbid hazel]

carnos aren't made for hunting stego

they're for tenos and murdering utahs

[woeful walrus]

What are they meant to hunt then?

[dawn falcon]

Stego also isn’t really untouchable. Utah’s packs can bleed it out

[woeful walrus]

Tenos just stun lock you

[dawn falcon]

Small game

[turbid hazel]

carnos have high speed for a reason

[dawn falcon]

And you can bait the tail slam

[tacit oriole]

Agreed, but that change should of waited until there was something else that could hunt them

[turbid hazel]

yeah.

[golden coral]

Carnos should hunt dryos, utahs, and tenos, and utahs should hunt stegos and then tenos, possibly carnos, and dryos when solo

I think at least?

[dawn falcon]

If Utah’s and deinos can atleast take down a stego, it’s fine.

[turbid hazel]

seems fine to me

[woeful walrus]

Only thing that can kill stego is other stego or teno or croc

Only one of those is carni

[dawn falcon]

Utah’s can aswell

[golden coral]

Well, with diets, I can see stego on stego violence being a thing

[turbid hazel]

it's more a problem of roster than balance when it comes to stego.

[woeful walrus]

Yeah with a pack of what? 8?

[golden coral]

Even tenos for younger stegos possibly

[tacit oriole]

If they fix treehugging Utah vs stego would get interesting again

[dawn falcon]

Even 5 Utah’s can take one out

[turbid hazel]

which is reasonable...

[dawn falcon]

4-5 Utah’s is like the least amount of Utah’s required to take out a stego

[golden coral]

4-8 depending on circumstances and how both sides play

[turbid hazel]

if the utahs know what they're doing and communicate it makes it alot easier

[tacit oriole]

Tenos can kill stegos below 90% if they are good, but FG is hard with the shitty kick hit rego

[woeful walrus]

You need to well coordinated however most people here aren’t

[golden coral]

Tail, range, slam. :p

[turbid hazel]

then that's a player problem, not game.

[golden coral]

I wouldn't say you should kick stegos, when you can just slam them

[alpine plover]

@woeful walrus What do you mean by herbivores shouldn’t be disencourged to hunt herbies?

[tacit oriole]

The tail hit box for tenos (60% damage) extends for like 4/5ths of the tail length before you get the 1% tail tip box

[woeful walrus]

You mean carnivores?

[turbid hazel]

i mean KoSing will always be a thing, until proper ruled servers come out

[alpine plover]

yea

mb

[tacit oriole]

Really easy to hit them with a swipe if they point their tail towards you

[turbid hazel]

and you can go there...even though i hate them personally

stares at body down

[golden coral]

But even a "base of tail" is survivable, so is a body hit. So you're relatively good. And you can aim the tail to the sides a little, so I'd try that before getting in close with the kick. At least kick seems more risky to me.

[woeful walrus]

Carnis are meant to hunt herbivores and herbivores are meant to defend not the other way around

[half jackal]

yall need to fix utah

[tacit oriole]

You can take 1, but the bleed sucks hard

[turbid hazel]

you'd be surprised. irl herbies can be really aggro

[woeful walrus]

If provoked yes

[tacit oriole]

But why would tenos hunt stegos anyway

[turbid hazel]

the carni can exist nearby and thats provoking

[turbid hazel]

fun. it's a player problem.

you can't really...get rid of it.

[golden coral]

Well true, but wouldn't you be more at risk with a kick anyone, since you're so much closer?

[woeful walrus]

I’ve seen giraffe chase lions so I agree but what I’m saying is in this game killing for sport is too glorified and too easy

[tacit oriole]

You can kick without stopping though

[golden coral]

Diets. I can imagine sub stegos competing with tenontos perhaps

[woeful walrus]

I just saw 2 tenos wipe stego subs

[turbid hazel]

i don't see how you can glorify kosing

[tacit oriole]

Subs are weak at, you get adult at like 1 ton

[woeful walrus]

They grow their Dino for the sole purpose of going to pond or something and wiping it for fun

[turbid hazel]

that's...not glorifying it????

[tacit oriole]

There was a huge pack if like 20 tenos hunting a stego last night on NA1, stego mixpacked with carnos and killed me (stego) and a bunch of babies I was raising, even the really good tenos were struggling

[golden coral]

To be fair, I have to say, if you're at pond, you are putting yourself in the firing line as it were.

[tacit oriole]

Took another stego to get the job done

[turbid hazel]

the only thing i hate that happens is mixpacking.

[woeful walrus]

Yes but rn I’m talking about me being an adult carno being killed at centre I spawned at pond stayed there for a while and the tenos came and killed everyone even other herbis

[golden coral]

I know. But since people are mentioning pond :p

[woeful walrus]

I rather mixpacking than Kosing

[turbid hazel]

they're allowed to do that though.

kosing and mixpacking tend to go hand in hand from what i've seen

i don't care if you're just, hanging around and chilling

just don't go around with stegos and deinos purging the server and we're cool.

[tacit oriole]

So I don't like KoSing (hunting deinos aside), but tenos killing carnos is just smart. Why leave threats alive?

[woeful walrus]

Allowed ok but it’s too easy and it shouldn’t be this easy to wipe a whole pack of something

[woeful walrus]

That’s what I usually do just chill with people

[turbid hazel]

it's a gameplay choice

[tacit oriole]

As a stego if a carno comes up and t-bags I'll leave it be, but if I was a teno I wouldn't

[alpine plover]

Some herbivores like teno should be aggressive

[woeful walrus]

What’s the difference? You can kill it anyways

[thin mantle]

It’ll try hunting you eventually anyway, why wait?

[alpine plover]

No? Buffalos are a example.

[tacit oriole]

Carno isn't a threat to me as a stego, really

[thin mantle]

Moose

[woeful walrus]

To the point a lot of players also kill other herbis

[sinful cove]

how the fuck is a stego running anything down?

[alpine plover]

Same

[thin mantle]

If contesting for food then maybe

[tacit oriole]

And I'd rather let them get numbers so I can get an actual fight

[alpine plover]

I get into the mindset of the animal Im playing

[woeful walrus]

Ok but running in a place and just killing everything on sight?

[alpine plover]

Teno is meant to be played somewhat aggressive

[golden coral]

@thin mantleGood .. morning I suppose, since it's past midnight here.

[tacit oriole]

I play stego like a cranky bull elephant haha

[woeful walrus]

Yes somewhat

Not killing for sport

[alpine plover]

I mean if they want to, just kill them.

[turbid hazel]

dude. it's a gameplay choice

it will never go away.

[alpine plover]

Only way to stop that is with rules

[sinful cove]

teno and pachy seem like they are supposed to be aggressive af animals who will neutralize threats when they have the chance

[thin mantle]

Teno doesn’t exactly strike me as friendly, especially considering generally herbivores are far more aggressive than carnivores irl

[turbid hazel]

even if you nerf them. it won't go away.

[alpine plover]

yea

[golden coral]

Honestly, most of the large and weaponized animals should be played similarily. Like, you're big, require lots of food, and is a highly lethal animal. Why are someone else going near you and thinking that is safe? :p

[thin mantle]

Hey man good to see ya! Just popped in to see how islecord is behaving today

[turbid hazel]

meanwhile ptera is just the ultimate troll dino

it's a sky rat

[thin mantle]

Sad hypsi noises

[fathom obsidian]

lmao

[turbid hazel]

hypsi too

[golden coral]

It's.. behaving! You can take over for me, I really need to stop hanging around half the night, rumor has it sleep is better for you if you actually sleep at night!

[turbid hazel]

except ptera can get away really easy

[woeful walrus]

I think it’s just plain trolling

[golden coral]

Tree-house hypsis!

[thin mantle]

Sleep is for the weak >:D embrace the endless balance discussion.

[turbid hazel]

i don't see anything wrong with it. it's literally impossible to get rid of people like that unless you want to go onto a rule server (which don't really exist atm)

limiting someone's ways to play is just silly to me

[woeful walrus]

Lots of games do it so that others can still have fun

[turbid hazel]

if someone wants to be a troll, or kos everything they can.

[thin mantle]

This may sound odd, but perhaps humans are controlling these animals and will do standard pvp things in whatever game they like…

Just sayin🤷‍♂️

[turbid hazel]

that doesn't mean the isle has to. plus plenty of people prefer this.

i mean, yeah

[alpine plover]

Soad, what’s your thoughts?

[turbid hazel]

[alpine plover]

I know you’re a pretty decent player

[woeful walrus]

I agree there’s not much to do however I think making stamina changes would maybe help

[turbid hazel]

not everyone plays for the pure survival aspect like you fallen

[alpine plover]

Nah

[woeful walrus]

I don’t always play for pure survival but I just don’t KOS

[turbid hazel]

stamina changes won't do anything

[alpine plover]

Teno needs stam to escape lager predators like allo in the future

[thin mantle]

If ptera gets anymore stamina needs it’ll only be able to take off, then land

[woeful walrus]

It’s not a death match

[thin mantle]

Indeed

[alpine plover]

And people will still hunt with teno, unless you give it the worst stam in the game.

[thin mantle]

At that point people just won’t play it

[turbid hazel]

changing a dino fundamentally because of a few people who like playing the game differently to you is silly.

[woeful walrus]

They can change it back when a new roster is here but for current roster it’s op

[sinful cove]

wrecking herbivor emobility will just help change the 20% herbi player population into a 10% population

[fathom obsidian]

on what sorry? i wasnt following

wait did i write something here?

[thin mantle]

Yeah herbis already have such little incentive to exist

[alpine plover]

On lowering herbivores stamina to disencoruge aggressive behavior

[alpine plover]

yeah lol

[fathom obsidian]

oh then that was a fail haha

[turbid hazel]

because fallen doesn't like kosing

[sinful cove]

herbivores kos it's what they do

[thin mantle]

Escape, quick!

[turbid hazel]

for now you just have to deal with it until ruled servers become more popular again

(i hate rule servers for a reason)

[fathom obsidian]

i dont see too much of a problem with herbie stam, maybe stego can run for too long, dunno but im not concerned

[thin mantle]

I feel like people who complain about that have never seen or researched herbis irl

[sinful cove]

and getting KFSed by an herbi is no worse than getting KFSed by some carno where both will leave your body to continue their sprees anyway

[turbid hazel]

facts

[fathom obsidian]

its not something very important imo

[turbid hazel]

plus, who cares. they're just doing what they find fun

[thin mantle]

The fact that ever carni is heaps faster Kinda levels it out

[sinful cove]

ive seen a deer literally run through like 2 yards to attack some dog that was doing nothing

herbis are bastards irl

[turbid hazel]

it's simply getting rid of possible threats

[thin mantle]

5 people in the town I live in have been killed by Moose this year

[turbid hazel]

jesus.

[sinful cove]

you look at an herbivore the wrong way irl and theyll be like "you fucking dare"

[turbid hazel]

you breathe wrong and they run you down

[thin mantle]

One of the most needlessly agro animals on earth

[turbid hazel]

meanwhile a carni will be like 'hmmmmmmmmmmmm'

[sinful cove]

hippos go out of their way to kill gazelles that are crossing rivers for shits and giggles

[turbid hazel]

hippos are so aggro it isn't even funny

[sinful cove]

elephants kos and do some corpse guarding, hippos also corpse guard

[turbid hazel]

but i can't get mad at pigmy hippos

i'm sorry

[thin mantle]

The thing is, carnis irl need to be much more careful with their matchups. Getting injured completely debilitated their ability to eat. This same principle applies to herbis in reverse, they take very little risk murdering whatever they can because all they really need to do is walk to a plant and nom it

[turbid hazel]

like, for me the rule servers with shit like body down, tethers, no kosing and more is just completely ridiculous. it just caters to people who can't deal with the fact survival is really, really harsh.

[thin mantle]

So if anything herbis are more justified randomly killing people than carnis are

[turbid hazel]

very true.

[sinful cove]

magy will probably only be remotely viable on rules servers

[turbid hazel]

[thin mantle]

If it stays in forests and avoids everything in a higher weight class it might be fine

But that’s the only way I see it working practically

[turbid hazel]

rule servers fucking suck and are more toxic than officials change my mind

balancing a game around that is stupid

[sinful cove]

if its lucky enough that some allo or alberto doesnt decide to go on a peaceful walk through the woods it might be fine

[turbid hazel]

it's clearly not what the devs want if their own officials don't have any of that

[tacit oriole]

RP servers isn't for me but I don't hate on people wanting a more 'authentic' experience

[turbid hazel]

but body down, tethers and no kosing isn't even authentic really

[thin mantle]

So basically a less realistic experience

[alpine plover]

yea, bodydown is the opposite of realistic.

[sinful cove]

the aggro circle rules for herbis are stupid as fuck

[thin mantle]

And kosing rules

[turbid hazel]

if the carni has a chance, it'll kill more if it's not too risky

[alpine plover]

I got warned as a juvie carno for ambushing a baby utah whos pack had a body

[sinful cove]

like i cant attack this rex that has been walking around my herd for 10 minutes because it hasnt entered my no-no circle? really?

[alpine plover]

They seriously wanted me to contest a utah pack as a 35% carno

[thin mantle]

More food is just a universal benefit

[turbid hazel]

exactly

[alpine plover]

Like…. irl the carno would just snatch the utah and run

[thin mantle]

What’s even funnier is that you can’t even steal chunks off the body

[turbid hazel]

facts...

[tacit oriole]

The idea is around making people motivated by the same things IRL animals are motivated by. Lions don't hunt for sport, they hunt to eat them guard the body until they are full

[raw sparrow]

why more food? just eat oother players

[thin mantle]

You have to claim the whole thing

[turbid hazel]

but people tend to do that in officials sometimes. i see it.

[tacit oriole]

Like I said, it's not for me but I can understand why people want it

[thin mantle]

I think we often need to realize that this survival game is played by humans, because I don’t think players should be forced into very specific behaviors

[turbid hazel]

and the fact that i see ruled servers being more toxic as a community than ones without so many rules speaks to me. i can kind of see it but trying to force it on other people who don't is just stupid.

[tacit oriole]

I'm not advocating for it, simply explaining why some people choose that style of server

[turbid hazel]

like what fallen was doing

[raw sparrow]

@thin mantle then why not give every dino the same stats?

[tacit oriole]

I run a completely opposite server haha, no food no survival all combat

[thin mantle]

Oh ofcourse

[turbid hazel]

that doesn't even make sense...

how does that even relate to what fluff is saying

[thin mantle]

What do you mean? I don’t want players to adhere to exact actions that the animals would’ve taken in the wild to a degree that options don’t exist. That’s what I’m saying, what you’re implying I meant is an incredibly hyperbolic interpretation

[tacit oriole]

The idea is you give people tools and an intuitive SOP, bit you give enough flexibility and authority for people to find their own strategies and tactics

That's good PvP 101

[raw sparrow]

yeah u didnt say that at all, people should be forced into playing specific behaviors, a dilo should play like a dilo not a utah or a carno, nor a deino like a stego

[thin mantle]

Yeah, play styles should be a general toolkit you can pick from but it’s up to you to effectively utilize it

[turbid hazel]

they didn't say that either

[raw sparrow]

who is they?

no one said that but people can take it like that

[turbid hazel]

i think you're severely misinterpreting what they're trying to say. fluff is they?

[thin mantle]

I’m not saying as a baseline they should play the same, but variation in player input should allow for multiple dinos to handle similarly depending on the scenario

[thin mantle]

I am a He, in case that makes typing easier

[turbid hazel]

mk i just prefer saying they since, i get called he alot when i'm a she. idk

[raw sparrow]

variation i n player input = skill?

[thin mantle]

Oh absolutely, having multiple ways to approach the same situation encourages skill and adaptation

[turbid hazel]

agreed.

[thin mantle]

Or at least the development of it, if all encounters had 1 method of success that would make player improvement a matter of attaining the execution of that 1 method. This would make gameplay loops pretty 1 dimensional after you figured out how to approach each scenario

[tacit oriole]

Imagine a game like Starcraft where you only had 1 viable build. It wouldn't be a good game