balance-feedback-discussion

[tacit oriole]

if a teno gets 3x headshots on a carno they put it on 10% hp

[wild cove]

I do agree that it wasn't a good idea to nerf Stego's main predator i.e. Utah into the ground, although playing devil's advocate here, Utah would probably just roflstomp everything else except stego anyway because its easier and less risk to go chomp basically everything else except deino

[tacit oriole]

carno vs stego was in a really good place last patch, took skill and patience but it was doable

now? forget it

[wide cosmos]

Well before it took 2-3bites from carno to kill Utah now it just gets one shoted by everything

[wild cove]

I mean the one thing I'm somewhat glad for is that Deino actually has to fear one of the isle's other species, but Utah should've been put in a better spot to hunt Stego

[golden coral]

Do you have any comparsions to other critters?

[tacit oriole]

the changes to deino were spot-on imo

[wide cosmos]

Might Atwell just play dryo as a carnivore

[mental roost]

Sadly no.. but that's still really damn good.

[tacit oriole]

we've had a bunch of 2x deino vs stego on our server it's... close

expect one of you to die at a minimum

but the stego can just run away now

[golden coral]

Carno should not be hunting a stego. It's a small game hunter, stego is the last thing it should ever hunt. It should barely hunt other carnos or tenos.

What is with people not understanding the role of a given animal?

[wild cove]

^

[tacit oriole]

I mean I get that, and with a massiv roster that's a good idea, but we don't have every niche filled

[golden coral]

I wish the devs would be more open in what every critter is supposed to do and not do

[brittle storm]

yes but with the current roster stego doesnt have any predators

[golden coral]

It doesn't need any. When diets come out, you can make life hell for stegos that way

[brittle storm]

and the deino is supposed to be an apex

[golden coral]

And we're almost there

[wild cove]

Which honestly should just be fixed with touching up Utah more so they stand some chance of taking one down

[golden coral]

Not to mention that utahs can hunt stegos, I've yet to see anything saying they can't in this patch

Has anyone properly tested out a max pack vs a stego?

[tacit oriole]

Carno got a swim speed buff tho

[wild cove]

I think that requires enough people being able to grow a full adult pack first lol

[wild cove]

Ew why

[tacit oriole]

dunno lol, I'm just testing stam stuff and noticed it

[golden coral]

But when someone has tested a proper pack of utahs vs a stego, then we'll know

[wild cove]

Carno physically should not be any sort of great or even decent swimmer

[wild cove]

I mean it'll probably also help when everyone isn't rubber-banding

[golden coral]

If that's impossible or takes very long then I'll grant you utah needs some serious help

[brittle storm]

yeah

[tacit oriole]

We have about a dozen people on auto-grow testing that sort of thing, utahs can hunt stegos using pounce and just rotating through, takes a while though

[golden coral]

But with the dismount fix, stego is no longer going to cull you when you get off

[tacit oriole]

but as soon as you have a second stego it doesn't work anymore

[golden coral]

So now there's no reason to not use the pounce

[tacit oriole]

one of our players is very good at picking utahs off other stegos with tail swipes lol

[brittle storm]

except for the pounce fcking especially that move

[golden coral]

How long is a while for that matter? :p

[brittle storm]

i mean by the lag

[wild cove]

I guess its going to come down to how the update affects player population then and herds

[golden coral]

Well, I can't talk about lag or rubberbanding, that's not how we balance things. And for that matter, I can barely get anywhere on the server right now as my baby stego, I keep rubberbanding back xD

[tacit oriole]

same with teno helpers, can kick utahs off stegos pretty easily

[wide cosmos]

How much HP did carno have before this update?

[golden coral]

Going to take me half an age to get anywhere if this keeps up

[golden coral]

2K I think, it lost 200

[tacit oriole]

5 min? quicker than it used to be to bleed them out

pounce is a lot safer now

[brittle storm]

by the way how much stamina does the deino alt bite cost for a 100% deino?

[tacit oriole]

10% per use

3:30 to recharge from 0 to full

[golden coral]

That's just what the bleed itself does right, not a proper fight?

[mental roost]

10% for all stages of Deino?

-Poor smol deino..

[brittle storm]

10%? jesus thats sooo much

[tacit oriole]

that's with 4 utahs rotating through safely and resting

[golden coral]

Yeah but, assuming the stego doesn't fight back or anything?

And how long duration on the pounces?

[tacit oriole]

about half stam

[wild cove]

Also as a sidenote, I did manage to get into a 1v1 with a small raptor as Hypsi and win, but I can't really say how much of that is viability and how much is just lag and rubber-banding. I'll report more back once server stability is improved, assuming I can find a small lone raptor without something else trying to chomp my ass lol

[golden coral]

So, in total two full pounces, or there abouts?

[tacit oriole]

stego can't really fight back against good utahs, apart from tree hugging

[golden coral]

Or half from 4 utahs then?

[tacit oriole]

half then off and rest then pounce again

[golden coral]

The fuck are you saying?

[wild cove]

Stego's are herd animals though, right? Or at least supposed to be

I'm not a dino buff so

[tacit oriole]

utahs just need to circle on either side, wait for a swipe, then pounce the other side

[golden coral]

Not to me. And here's why. First off, they're large, that means massive food intakes. Second, they're very weaponized, that means danger in fighting off competition. As such, I can't see them, or any other large animal being more than pairs. Also because of balance reasons.

[tacit oriole]

when the one pounced jumps off, stego will try to swipe, other side pounces on

buck does a lot more now though, 2 bucks will throw a utah off

[golden coral]

Alright. So, all the utahs gave it half a pounce, and the stego bled out from that? And if so, the buck is nerfed I think, it used to only require one bucking to get the utahs off?

[tacit oriole]

buck always just inflicts stam drain on the pounced utah

[wild cove]

I mean friendly fire applies to all dinos regardless, so that point is only slightly relevant. If you're constantly killing your own team, either you or your team are probably bad and have no coordination lol

Natural selection at that point

[tacit oriole]

if the utah runs out, they get thrown off

[wild cove]

Most stego players group up in my experience though, at least currently

We'll see how diets change that

[golden coral]

I didn't mean friendly fire :p

[tacit oriole]

tenos can easily protect stegos too

[true basalt]

This update is fineee

[tacit oriole]

[golden coral]

Yeah but last I recall, one full buck would drain the utahs stamina, now you're saying it takes two full bucks to do it?

[wild cove]

just looks like nature doing its job to me 😛

jk

[golden coral]

@tacit orioleCould you test how many full pounces it takes to bleed a stego out?

[true basalt]

The texutres

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, I'll do that tomorrow, letting people just muck around atm while I test stamina stuff

1 full utah pounce takes a sprinting carno down to 55% blood, if that helps

but I'm not sure what the sprinting/standing/sitting bleedrate modifiers are

Also: (excuse the photo of a screen, not taken by me)

[golden coral]

Haven't seen that sort of shenanigans in a long time.. :p

[brittle storm]

is this how a stego looks like after not getting enough to eat?

[hollow canyon]

@tacit orioleAre you sure about the speed of Tenonto being 46.8km/h? I've been told it's 40.5km/h

[tacit oriole]

Nah just a bug

[tacit oriole]

Ah, my mistake, you are correct - 40.5. That makes way more sense, thanks for catching it

[mental roost]

D'OH

[tacit oriole]

[mental roost]

How much damage should a Stego do at around 60%?

biteforce: 26.8 Newtons

[brittle storm]

oh lol imagine if you are a utah and a teno is chasing the hell out of you at the same speed

that would have been nightmare stuff

[tacit oriole]

Yeah I was WTFing all over that haha

[tacit oriole]

Unsure, I would guess 450-500

[mental roost]

Rip

[tacit oriole]

50% is 386 so maybe less

[hollow canyon]

Can Tenonto oneshot a Utah with the tailslam headshot?@tacit oriole

[wide cosmos]

According to numbers yes

Utah can get one's shotel by everything except maybe dryo

[tacit oriole]

Headshot will 1-tap a Utah, yes

Hard to land though

[wide cosmos]

Im confused, was Utah not easy enough to kill before? These changed don't make sense to me

[tacit oriole]

The change was "Make HP equal to weight" without remembering why it's different now

[oak wind]

Tf

[tacit oriole]

Teno can sprint swim for longer than it can sprint run for, dunno how that makes sense

[oak wind]

People wanting Stego nerf when it finally is worthy

[tacit oriole]

1:45 and 2:30

[oak wind]

Stego was previously underpowered and now that it got a buff people wants it to be nerfed.

While Utah being previously overturned and finally some kind of nerfed, players want to buff it.

I also hope Stego one shot Carno in the head

That'd be

[mental roost]

Oof..

Just one shot a sub adult carno who trotted up to me and bit me..

[wide cosmos]

How was Utah overpowered before?

[golden coral]

@empty cosmosI think it's better this way, less weird hitbox/performance issues, the game can't neccesarily handle the faster pace.

[tacit oriole]

Can, both by maths and tested

so carnos can't even safely engage a stego anymore

[wheat field]

They shouldn’t be able to

[tacit oriole]

hit rego has been tweaked a bit, so it's harder for stegos to land headshots

[oak wind]

Overturned.

It was:
-fast
-had great stamina recovery
-had good Stam
-had good damages
-had op health
-was fairly nimble

[golden coral]

Seems like it's the stego/utah matchup that causes the most issues here. Not sure how to fix that one though without utah being too weak against other things.

[tacit oriole]

A lot of airchair maths suggest utah was stronger than it really, in practice, was

[ocean wagon]

The only thing Utah really needed fixed was it’s health and weight

[oak wind]

Stamina as well tbh.

[tacit oriole]

in practice - as in auto-grow fights - utah was pretty underwhelming unless it was in really good hands

[ocean wagon]

Everything else listed are what make Utah, Utah

[golden coral]

About the same that claimed stego was so much stronger than it was I'd say.

[oak wind]

I mean

Utah doesn't need all of what it had

Make it some kind of a specialist.

Not a generalist

Short distance hunter, pounce of small animals and hunter of very large in huge packs.

[tacit oriole]

5 utahs was never that scary in survival, as a teno or carno or stego

[ocean wagon]

Specialist is what carno is

[tacit oriole]

but 5 carnos was VERY scary

[oak wind]

Utah being decent as hunting medium is ehh except if ornithopods tbh.

[golden coral]

They were. They absolutely were. Granted carnos may have been scarier, in the same numbers, but 4-5 utahs were all you needed. Barely even half a pack.

And thats why the stego/utah matchup is so weird.

[oak wind]

Utah hunting Tyreophoras, Merginocephals well isnt a good idea. Even less against theropods.

[tacit oriole]

maybe it was just the tenos I packed with, but one of them could 1v3 utahs on the regular

[oak wind]

Seems fair.

[ocean wagon]

The only medium tier dinos atm are teno and carno. And a solo Utah 9/10 won’t win a 1v1 with them

[oak wind]

But now if CC it is even more dead.

[tacit oriole]

probably is, but now even a full pack would struggle with a teno pair

[oak wind]

As they shouldn't Billy.

[tacit oriole]

one tailslam headshot, two if you miss the head

[oak wind]

Even in packs, they wouldn't be great because of the low space on them.

[tacit oriole]

teno still gets 8 before it runs out

[ocean wagon]

Exactly so why nerf them even more

[oak wind]

Because they do not need to be that good.

Let it be good at similar sized animals and smaller. Then very large in groups.

Squishy fast but low runner hunter.

[ocean wagon]

Like I said I can understand the weight pin change because Utah shouldn’t be pining anything 1000 kg but everything else is needed

[oak wind]

It doesn't need of good stamina tbh.

[tacit oriole]

pounce actually deals more damage than pin anyway, so it's not that big of a deal

[ocean wagon]

Why not

[oak wind]

But now at least more than Tenonto as it is faster.

Because being fast and large endurance is overtuned. Give either of one or just decent.

To me, animals should mostly run less than a minute or so.

[tacit oriole]

here's a fun fact: teno empty to full stam is 1:50 standing, 1:30 sitting

[oak wind]

Some may run for long.

Like Hadrosaurs.

Or Tyrannosaurs.

[ocean wagon]

Wha-

[hollow prairie]

I agree, Utah needs to have a buff again. It shouldn’t pin like it used to. Utah is meant to fight by darting quickly in, getting bites, and dodging. Plus the pounce! Now the pounce is weak and the bite feels useless, it feels unplayable. This might just be my opinion though!

[ocean wagon]

So trex should be an endurance runner while Utah cant run for more than 1 min

Is what you just said

[oak wind]

Pounce is good against small things, and large in high numbers.

Rex doesn't run tbh.

Powerwalk.

If you play Utah alone, hunt other Utahs or juveniles and dryos kekw.

[tacit oriole]

I feel like Afterthought just wants more focus on each dinos gimmick - same for carno - nerf bite, buff charge

[hollow prairie]

Utah is now slower, getting behind Carnos to get bites is now risky due to the faster alt bite, its pounce is nerfed and its bite is very useless. Carno bullied Utah’s before but now.. Oof.

[oak wind]

As it should.

[ocean wagon]

If anything carno is a generalist now

[golden coral]

No it's not. It's meant to use the pounce. Not run and bite.

[tacit oriole]

I don't think pounce was actually nerfed, I think it may have been buffed

[hollow prairie]

Go watch ScopeOG, he runs in and bait attacks to get bites on the legs and using pounce when necessary. He is an amazing Utah.

[oak wind]

Carno hunting similar sized and smaller is actually good and better than smaller only.

Then for large things it isn't good.

[hollow prairie]

Now that playstyle might not be possible.

[oak wind]

It shouldn't hunt Stego and Deino well at all.

[ocean wagon]

No you’re not getting it, carno is supposed to be hunting smaller things only

[golden coral]

Doesn't mean it's supposed to play like that. That was my point.

[oak wind]

But Utah wasn't meant to be like that.

[tacit oriole]

It absolutely isn't possible, unless you make slash work

[oak wind]

Tbh it's bad.

[hollow prairie]

Well, in my opinion, Utah isn’t fun anymore. It is not the same dino and it needs a buff.

[tacit oriole]

Biting is only useful for keeping bleeds open now

[oak wind]

Like, bait. Make the guy be out of stamina.

Then pounce it hard.

In packs.

[ocean wagon]

If carno is tackling things it’s size, then theres no point in adding cera or allo

[frosty heron]

Fixing the pounce is not a buff, it's a fix of a thing that shouldn't be happening

[oak wind]

But rn, Utah would only be decent at hunting its own kind, juveniles and Dryo. Possibly large things but mid tiers are and should be really though to hunt.

[hollow prairie]

The pounce is fine, its the damage that is the problems in my opinion.

[frosty heron]

But I dunno how Pounce is buffed, isn't supposed to be dealing less bleed dmg now?

[tacit oriole]

True, but net in-game power is still better for pounce than it used to be

[oak wind]

It stuns Cerato tbh. But doesn't tackle it. Same with Tenonto.

[ocean wagon]

It was already hard to solo mid tier shit

[oak wind]

So it gets a' advantage if.

[hollow prairie]

Of course, the hunts should be tough, and they were before but now it is very different. Utah feels too weak.

[oak wind]

Should be pretty much impossible.

[hollow prairie]

Uh no

That would make the balance wack as hell.

[frosty heron]

Big no to that

[oak wind]

Wait for things like Dilo, Pachy, Ava for Utah.

[tacit oriole]

I won't be rolling another utah in survival, put it that way. Tried fighting a bunch of stuff all evening and nope, it's actually weaker than pre-patch dryo imo

[hollow prairie]

Ew no

[ocean wagon]

Which is was, now even in packs you get spanked even harder

[hollow prairie]

That would make Utah gameplay boring. : /

[oak wind]

Even in packs

Utah shouldn't be that good at hunting mid tiers

And anti flanker like Stego

And Deino

[ocean wagon]

This is satire

[hollow prairie]

Utah’s should be a high skill dino, it shouldn’t be restricted too hard.

[oak wind]

Like, rn Utah isn't that good because it had not a lot of things it is meant to hunt.

[tacit oriole]

big pack utah might still have a chance against teno/carno pairs but tenos and stegos are going to roll in big herds now and nothing will be able to touch them, mark my words

[hollow prairie]

I don’t want to hunt just Ava’s, Dryo’s, etc.

Key word: might

[oak wind]

You're meant to if Solo.

[hollow canyon]

Carno's not gonna be hunting large stuff much if at all now. Its damage has been lowered and their hp pools are larger. A pack of Carnos might be able to kill a Deino that got itself stuck on land but other than that... yea gl hf. You need at least 16 headshots to kill a Stego now.

[oak wind]

If in pack then go for possibly Maia, Plateo, Para, Shant.

Large bodied animals.

[ocean wagon]

Maia and para are mid tiers

[oak wind]

Then you're fucked if you go for something like Allo, Alberto.

[hollow prairie]

Has to be satire, I really hope that the devs change this. Utah got slapped before unless it was played by a pro, like ScopeOG, but now its punched.

[oak wind]

Para may be large as it is 11 tons.

[ocean wagon]

Compared to the actual apexes in this game, para is a mid tier

[golden coral]

Really? Is it that much worse vs everything now?

[oak wind]

Force wise it is.

[hollow prairie]

Yes.

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, had 3 or 4 hardcore utah mains come in and try and make it work. They are rolling tenos now

[wide cosmos]

Carnos can now one shot utahs with alt bite...

[oak wind]

But size wise it is a decent thing to be hunted By Utahraptor packs. It is large and piunce must be effective on it'

[hollow prairie]

Of course..

[wide cosmos]

Looks like utahs been reduced to hunting AI Dryos only

[golden coral]

All critters should demand skill. It has nothing to do with what they should or should not hunt. UTahs should not be good at hunting everything. Leave them to be great vs larger animals, and bad vs medium/small. Or the other way around, but there has to be both good and bad.

[oak wind]

That needs to Utah to come at the Carno and Carno timing it's bite.

[ocean wagon]

Size doesn’t mean anything if you do shit damage. That’s like arguing that legacy Acro was an apex

[hollow prairie]

These are very high skilled players though, what about the more average base? Even they got slapped before.

[tacit oriole]

That was my thinking. One of them was able to solo stegos pre-patch - they beat me twice in a row

[oak wind]

I mean, Utah doesn't do good damages that much but in high packs, they can do relay strategy.

And those animals are large.

[golden coral]

Depends on how big para we get I think.

[oak wind]

So a lot of Utahs fan pounce them.

[golden coral]

But you said it worked just fine vs stego earlier?

[tacit oriole]

I wouldn't say fine, it took a lot of skill and patience, but they could do it

[hollow prairie]

Yes, there are some amazing Utah’s out there now. It isn’t going to be the same anymore, they will have to work even harder to play and beat things solo.

[ocean wagon]

Legacy acro was as large as a giga, so you think those two are in the same apex class

[oak wind]

Legacy Acro was a progression animal.

[tacit oriole]

So it is worth noting: stamina recharge scales with blood amount now

[golden coral]

5 min is not a lot. I'm sorry but that is neither much skill or patience. Come back when it takes 30 min minimum and we'll see.

[oak wind]

It cannot be compared.

[hollow prairie]

To me, this is just my opinion, even though the pounce was hard to land Utah felt better before this update. Others seem to agree, it needs to be buffed again.

[carmine charm]

@tacit oriole tell me if you need any help in testing or organizing the sheet.

[tacit oriole]

If you have 50% blood your stamina recharges at 50%

[golden coral]

I mean, Para these days is as heavy as most of the other big things. Just saying. If we get full sized para, it'll be up there in weight and all.

[hollow canyon]

Legacy Acro was bugged

[tacit oriole]

Will do, thankfully have a pretty good group of people happy to test this sort of thing

[ocean wagon]

What does it being a progression Dino have to do with anything?

[hollow canyon]

It wasn't intentionally that large

[golden coral]

And this is why utah needed severe nerfs.

[oak wind]

They haven't been touched since 4 years

Or 3.

[alpine plover]

acro wasnt ment to be played

[ocean wagon]

My point being it wasn’t an apex regardless of its size

[hollow prairie]

Uh no. This person is highly skilled, it shouldn’t be nerfed. A solo teno can wipe the floor with one Utah and a pack if it is skilled enough.

[oak wind]

It was meant to be playable on a game mod that has been abandoned '

[hollow canyon]

It wasn't meant to be an apex by size or anything else. Largest estimates of Parasaurolophus dwarf an Acro. Para is twice bigger

[alpine plover]

i mean acro should get destroyed by all 3 apexes like rex giga spino but it bullies all mid tiers and smaller

[golden coral]

It should. Unless that stego was AFK, a solo utah should just not win, no matter your skill. It is not a fighting game, it's a survival game.

[oak wind]

So, in sandbox/survival, Acro wasn't actually balanced.

[alpine plover]

thats why shant was kinda op a f

[hollow prairie]

It is a survival game, you are meant to fight in..? What is your logic.

[ocean wagon]

You’re missing my point. Para is the acro of the herbivores

[oak wind]

Utah should just die to a Stego or Stego out heal Utah's damages.

If it is alone'

[tacit oriole]

It was a little too good in the right hands, but I think the nerfs were way too hard. The issue is there was no real thought or care put into the nerfs - it went "HP equal to weight, that means half hp, and lets scale bite with HP"

[hollow canyon]

It's not. Acro is literally a midget compared to the apexes, Para isn't. It's larger than a Trike if they go with the largest specimen.

[hollow prairie]

Thank you, I agree. I don’t mind the speed nerfs so much, but the damage nerfs make it so hard to fight or defend yourself as Utah.

[oak wind]

Acro is half weight of Para lmfao

[ocean wagon]

Legacy acro was not a midget it was as big as giga

[oak wind]

But it wasn't balanced

As

[hollow canyon]

Because it was bugged? That's not how large it was supposed to be - its model just bugged out from one patch to another.

[oak wind]

It hasn't been touched in 3 years

Smae goes for Camara

[hollow canyon]

The devs left it like that because it was a sandbox animal that they didn't care to fix at that point.

[oak wind]

If we go Acro/Giga size, Acro is 5.8 tons and 11.3 meters long while Giga is 8.3 tons and 13.2 meters long iirc.

[ocean wagon]

My point being size isnt the only requirement for being an apex

[oak wind]

But Acro wasn't meant to be an apex

[golden coral]

It's survival. That means it's about remaining alive, everything else is just part of it/secondary. My logic is that it's not a fighting game and thus, everything does not need to be able to kill everything else under reasonable circumstances, much less solo.

[hollow prairie]

But Acro is an apex

[hollow canyon]

Our point is that Acro's size in the legacy was completely irrelevant because its model was bugged making it much larger than it was supposed to be.

[ocean wagon]

Neither is para

[oak wind]

It isn't

And Para isn't

Para is a large sized animals

[golden coral]

That I can grant you, I'm not claiming the current balance is perfect. That remains to be seen how good/bad this really is when people get used to it after a few weeks.

[tacit oriole]

I'm not an expert by any means, but I play with good players in an environment that lets them test stuff pretty easily, so yeah

[hollow prairie]

The Isle is a PVP game, you fight to kill your opponents to eat and survive or defend yourself. Everything should be able to fight everything, defend itself, and it should have a high skill cap. The game would be so boring if a Carno couldn’t fight other midtiers or a Utah could only hunt Ava’s, Dryo’s, etc.

[hollow canyon]

You simply do not know whether Parasaurolophus is going to be a mid tier or not because the devs haven't specified how large it's going to be in the new iteration of the game but they did say that it's too large to be included in Evrima.

[golden coral]

@tacit orioleThough I think at least they put far more thought into this than prior balances. Before it was far more "random", but now it's at least some coherency in all weight = health and damage sacled properly and all that. So that much is better, instead of it being the whole, utah has double health to weight, stego doesn't even have health to weight, and so on with most of the others, with damage variying massively too, such as dryo having extreme damage for what it is.

[ocean wagon]

You said Utah’s shouldn’t go after mid tiers, then proceed to list two mid tiers and an apex as if Maia or para are compared to shan’t

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, this is the "realism" patch, but idk how healthy it is for gameplay

[oak wind]

Firstly meant to be a survival first.

[hollow prairie]

Yes, realism is nice, the game is going to be beautiful. But too much realism can be bad.

[hollow canyon]

Pretty sure he meant "mid tier carnivores" there

[oak wind]

Thing is that Hadrosaurs are large bodied animals that have a lot of space and flanks on them.

[hollow prairie]

And to survive you have to fight, kill, defend yourself, eat.

[hollow canyon]

Considering he listed Allo and Alberto afterwards

[oak wind]

So pounce is really efficient.

[golden coral]

It's a Survival Horror PvPvE game. You might think it would be boring, but I severely disagree. I do not think everything should be able to fight everything, or kill it, unless very very specific circumstances. Simple as that. If you don't want to hunt only "small", don't be a carno. If you don't want to hunt only x, don't be y. That's how an ecosystem works.

[oak wind]

If mid tier carnivores? Utah is screwed and can flee.

Carno should have a bit less Stam but be very oppressive.

[ocean wagon]

No I’m pretty sure he meant what he said if he listed herbivores

[raw sparrow]

are u guys even testing the new changes before complainging?

[golden coral]

It is good. They're trying to get away from the whole "deathmatch pvp", and the more things they do and add that gives you reason to do stuff and live beyond fighting, the better. And that includes balancing too.

[oak wind]

Everything killing everything is dumb and there are no specialization or actual niches.

[hollow prairie]

It is a survival horror game, yes, but PVP is what it is designed for. You are meant to fight other people, you are meant to learn skills to defeat opponents much stronger than you are. It will be boring if the dino you are designed to kill isn’t played often and you only fight AI

[golden coral]

No, most have not. Or if they have, they've only tested stats, rather than ingame actual survival scenarios I suspect. Barring some exceptions I'm sure.

[hollow prairie]

Well, for certain dinos it would be very boring.

[oak wind]

No? If way stronger just get the fuck away.

[hollow canyon]

He listed a mid tier herbivore - Maia as well as Para(an apex/large/medium-sized carnivore) as things that a Utah should be hunting and listed Allo and Alberto as things that Utah should not be going after. I think it's pretty clear what he meant there.

[oak wind]

Everything being able to take down everything is even more boring and makes no senses.

[tacit oriole]

If anybody is curious, utahs are only barely faster than carnos in the water now

[hollow canyon]

I agree, I can't imagine playing a Minmi and being unable to kill large animals.

[golden coral]

Well, they're moving away from just "designed for PvP", so we need to follow with that thinking. And no, you're meant to learn skills and smarts to stay alive, not to "defeat opponents". It's not a fighting game, you should care about remaining alive, not what you can or can not kill. Can you find food, if you can, all is well. Simple as that.

[ocean wagon]

And I quote “If in pack then go for possibly Maia, Plateo, Para, Shant.”

[hollow prairie]

How? Now you have to actually know how to fight everything instead of some things being just free food. I do think tailriding should be gone or extremely limited in Evrima. But things should be able to stand a chance against each other using skill and strategy.

[golden coral]

You'll be getting stuff to do, elders, perks, diets (which will include fighting so there you go), nesting, and so on. And maybe even more stuff, beyond just fighting. That is absolutely a part of it, you hunt and you kill, but as long as you can hunt and kill what you need for your survival, you don't need to be able to hunt and kill the rest.

[hollow canyon]

It's pretty clear that he meant that it shouldn't be hunting mid tier carnivores then? He listed just herbivores?

[oak wind]

Welp now I don't listen to you then. Lose all credibility with the tail riding thing.

[hollow prairie]

Ah well, it was interesting debating you.

[oak wind]

Same kind of guy as Sti(n) KY Utah

[golden coral]

And yes. You can still kill a stego as a solo utah, it should just be immensely difficult. It's not like you shouldn't be able to cause it any harm, just that it should be one in a 1000% thing that happens. Not anything you'd ever do for normal survival.

[hollow prairie]

I don’t agree with anything you say but it was an interesting debate.

[oak wind]

Same.

[tacit oriole]

Hell yeah, that's how debates should go

well, with a little more common ground but love to see it regardless

[hollow prairie]

Well, I hope it is still possible, you should be able to take things down that are really powerful if you are smart and highly skilled. I hope that aspect to the game wasn’t altered with. : (

[golden coral]

Here's the thing. Assuming both the stego and utah are equally skilled, who wins?

[hollow prairie]

Maybe it should be 60/40, leaned in the Stego’s favor. Or 70/30.

[golden coral]

Assume they both play perfectly, they know their playables perfectly

[alpine plover]

Stego

[hollow prairie]

But it shouldn’t be impossible.

[golden coral]

At best that'd be a draw

[dry canyon]

stego every time if he know what hes doing

[golden coral]

The utah wouldn't be able to get to the stego at all, while the stego would obviously not be able to catch the utah.

[alpine plover]

(Also I wouldn’t recommend assriding a stego)

[dry canyon]

you cant pounce a stego you will get hit on the dismount

[hollow prairie]

If the Utah can bait attacks and waste the Stego’s stamina then it should win. But if the Stego is smart and highly skilled it should be very hard for the Utah.

[hollow prairie]

Of course not lmao.

[golden coral]

On a 1v1? I don't know about that one...

[hollow canyon]

Are you serious?

[golden coral]

Assme the stego does not fall for any bait at all?

[hollow prairie]

What do you think?

[golden coral]

I did say both sides played it perfectly

Which would entail none of them falls for the others baits

[hollow prairie]

Then the Utah has to be riskier and the Stego will most likely win or the Utah will give up.

[worldly venture]

What yall debating about

[hollow prairie]

A good stego vs good utah fight outcome.

[worldly venture]

Like, a 1v1?

[hollow prairie]

Yup.

[wide cosmos]

We don't have enough dinos in game to have nieches.

[worldly venture]

I mean of course the Utah should lose is that even an argument?

[hollow prairie]

Eh I disagree.

[hollow canyon]

I think that a serious person wouldn't say that an animal that takes 65 minutes to grow and gets to choose it engagements should be capable of killing an animal that grows for 300 minutes and is too slow to run away/attack you 40% or even 30% of the time.

[worldly venture]

A good Utah against a bad stego sure, but not against a good stego

[hollow prairie]

It should not be impossible.

[alpine plover]

500 kg rat vs 6 ton cow with spikes not even 500kg anymore

[worldly venture]

No duh but you put the keyword "Good" in that and it sure as hell starts to look like it

[dry canyon]

450 kg now

[worldly venture]

450 now

[hollow prairie]

Hmmm, I have to disagree. That is what makes growing apexes so scary. They should feel threatened by things like Allos, Utah’s, Carnos, etc. Things with much lower grow times.

[alpine plover]

apexes shouldn’t have to fear small tier utahs

[hollow prairie]

If apexes were untouched by other tiers there would be no fear factor.

[alpine plover]

unless it’s a large pack

[worldly venture]

Exactly lmao

At least not in a 1v1

[oak wind]

Not yet.

[hollow canyon]

Yes, and a Hypsi should be able to kill a Utah roughly 30% of the time too.

[alpine plover]

Maybe if there’s like 6-8 super patient and coordinated utahs, maybe

[hollow canyon]

That's the quality of balance you're talking about right there

[hollow prairie]

The 1v1 should be close to impossible for the Utah, but not completely impossible if it is smarter than its opponent.

[worldly venture]

Pack gameplay is what they fear, not the lone fucking animal

[alpine plover]

Yeah this isn’t legacy anymore

[golden coral]

Alright, pretty much how it should go. The difference in our opinion is more so how large the skill gap should be. But if both sides play it perfectly, I can't see it end any other way than the weaker one giving up. Or dying in a desperate attempt or something.

[worldly venture]

No shit? What's your point I don't get it. Plus you said they're roughly the same skill level?

[alpine plover]

evrima is relying more on a realistic standpoint, at least combat wise.

[golden coral]

Allos I can grant you in packs, same with utahs. Carno, no, it's a small game hunter, forget that.

[hollow prairie]

I’m saying that in a 1v1 a good Utah and a good Stego should still be able to have a match up.

[hollow canyon]

Just like a good Hypsi should have a match up against a good Utah

[hollow prairie]

It should be very hard for the Utah but not impossible.

[hollow canyon]

^ just change that to Hypsi

[worldly venture]

Like I can see an equal skill Carno killing a stego if they try hard enough, but a Utah. Yeah no

[golden coral]

@worldly ventureBasically, what I asked was. If a rex/stego/whatever animal you prefer, is up 1v1 against a utah/other similar thing, who wins if they both play it perfectly. And my own opinion is that it's a draw. The smaller thing can't get to the large thing without getting caught and die, and the large thing can't catch the smaller thing.

[hollow prairie]

If the Hypsi is really good and uses its surroundings, maybe it could win. Just like Utah vs Stego. However, Utah and Hypsi are not the same dino. Utah is meant to be fast, use its pounce, baits attacks, dodge, etc. It was built to fight while Hypsi was built to run away.

[worldly venture]

I think the game should be built around reasonable combat yes

Keyword reasonable

[worldly venture]

Yeah that sounds right

[hollow prairie]

I agree.

[worldly venture]

And you think a Utah killing a same skill stego is reasonable

...?

[alpine plover]

It’s 6 tons

[hollow prairie]

I do yes. But that is my opinion.

[alpine plover]

It could simply lay on utah and kill it

[golden coral]

Same skill would mean there would be no openings for the weaker animal, but also no way for the stronger animal to get the weaker one, so...

[hollow prairie]

If the Utah just let it lmfao.

[golden coral]

Same skill/smarts.

[worldly venture]

Honestly the stego doesn't even have to use it's tail, if it goes for the body it's dead, if it goes for the head it gets pecked to shit

[alpine plover]

Now a good Utah pack should definitely be able to kill a stego

[hollow prairie]

A good stego would still be trying to kill its opponent and create openings. The Utah would leave openings for the stego, depends on how they take advantage of each other in the fight.

[worldly venture]

^
But not a solo Utah, no way

[dry canyon]

stego should get a lay over ability, if pounced it will lay down and crush the utah

[frosty heron]

Stego can bite Utahs to death now with the hp nerf

[alpine plover]

Yeah it’s way too small

[hollow prairie]

Of course, yeah, a pack should.

[worldly venture]

Yes

[golden coral]

The general point is that if they're both as good as each other, neither would leave any openings that the other can take advantage of. It'll be a stalemate. You can't hit me, but I can't hit you either, sort of deal.

At least to me.

[worldly venture]

What's its new attack damaged? If its anywhere above 50 the Utah can't do shit lol

[golden coral]

Ah yes, let me just stay here while the stego nibbles on me :p

[hollow prairie]

Well, this was an interesting debate, I don’t really agree with much of what yall said but it was interesting hearing your opinions. I hope they bring Utah back to how it was before this update, with a few changes. That is just me though. Have a good day everyone. : )

[worldly venture]

Thing is Erik, is that the Utah going for the head is still vulnerable to damage, even if its not fatal damage

[golden coral]

Same to you

[frosty heron]

I mean if the dumb Utah tries to to go for headshots you can kill it that way

Or at least do big damage

[golden coral]

I know, I just meant you can't really say a stego is liable to nibble you to death :p

[worldly venture]

Have a gamer day and try not to let this weird ass update bother you too much

[alpine plover]

Solo utah- relies on killing small tiers and scavenging

Multiple utahs- meant to take down large game if coordinated well, using raw bleed to kill their enemies

numbers are always better, especially if you’re tiny

[worldly venture]

You'd be surprised how many none afk people just don't have ears lmao, but yes if the Utah knows it's there it won't happen

64% dryo really be our here with 3.9 damage, shee

[golden coral]

Fair enough.

No more combat dryo!

[alpine plover]

Finally

[worldly venture]

I'm sad and also happy at the same time

[golden coral]

I think we need to let the update be for a week or two

Let people get used to it and all

[frosty heron]

I can't be happy with this update, seriously

[worldly venture]

Like it's a good thing but I'll miss bullying the entire server as a small little stick

[frosty heron]

It's the worst balance wise

[golden coral]

Then we'll see how it actually turns out, when people have figured out new strategies and tactics and all

[empty cosmos]

@worldly venture its not that bad in game as i thought. it sounds much worse than it is

[worldly venture]

Same, some of it was good though, mostly the deino alt bite stuff and the dryo changes

But the most of it I really am not into

[worldly venture]

In regards to what?

[alpine plover]

Carno charge buff is cool

[worldly venture]

Okay yeah agreed, I like new Carno kinda

[wide cosmos]

Steggo is not really utahs game, I don't think solo Utah should be equally matched to a solo steggo, assuming equal skill levels. But that's was already the case. Now Utah will struggle to take down a tenno or a carno without loosing most or whole pack. It can get one shoted by any of them

[frosty heron]

Yeah and the overall speed nerfs it's fine, but Utah is garbage, Carno vs Teno isn't a 50/50 anymore and Stego is gonna go fish Deinos again

[golden coral]

How does the carno/teno matchup go?

[empty cosmos]

guys; easier doesn't mean better

[golden coral]

The fishing deinos is a river issue

But we're getting new map for that one

[empty cosmos]

there are so many games that are made to cater to children

[golden coral]

And no more shallows hopefully

[frosty heron]

I'll say 60 for the Teno and 40 for the Carno now

[hollow canyon]

Going by the stats - if you land the charge you can kill a Tenonto, if you don't... gl hf

[worldly venture]

Now I've killed a stego as solo Utah, but that's because the stego was terrible, poor fella had to get advice from a Carno that was watching us fight lmao

It was update 2 though so

[worldly venture]

Eh, it's still only 8 bites, I think the biggest game changer is the speed and drift nerf

For Carno that is

[alpine plover]

Update 3, you could still kill stegos as well

solo utah

It’s unbelievably easy unfortunately

[worldly venture]

Yeah you could but I stopped playing Utah and only ever played it in a pack

[wide cosmos]

Bad stego against good Utah sure. I saw good dryo take down bad utahs. That doesn't mean dryo needs to be nerfed

[hollow canyon]

It will be 9 bites unless you can land them in a very rapid succession/land someheadshots

[tacit oriole]

Yup

[worldly venture]

Killed a Utah or two as dryo in up 3, pretty funny

[empty cosmos]

People who think deinos need a buff are hilarious

[alpine plover]

deino is insanely strong lol

[frosty heron]

Deinos were busted , deserved nerf

[tacit oriole]

Deino vs carno is legit fun now though

[empty cosmos]

When people complain that deinos arent strong enough against steggos I laugh loudly

[alpine plover]

eh, it’s not too bad. Just alt bite costs stam now

[frosty heron]

Although the Stego fishing situation, if it happens it could be unfair

[empty cosmos]

Deino vs carno is ass now

[alpine plover]

now deinos won’t go out into a middle of a field

[primal dove]

8k health poggers

[empty cosmos]

It took serious skill for carnos to kill deinos before. Now it will be impossible

[golden coral]

It did. Dryo should not be able to do that. :p And you probably still can, just takes far more of a skill gap now.

[tacit oriole]

And 18 km/hr sprint and 15s sprint time on land AND 3:30 Stam recharge time

[alpine plover]

Deserved tbh

8 ton alligator

[golden coral]

@worldly ventureIt's more fun to let a utah pack chase you, run in circle sort of in the forest, watch the ground be covered in tracks, then juke them, crouch in nearby bush, and see how long it takes them to give up because they can't track you to save their lives.

[tacit oriole]

Not complaining, but they got nerfed pretty hard this patcj

[golden coral]

Back before dryos got faster than utahs :p

[alpine plover]

Those nerfs don’t really mean much, I’m sure it’s still extremely powerful

[empty cosmos]

The deinos got hard nerfed???

[alpine plover]

I have to test it out myself

[empty cosmos]

They got a health buff.

Their alt bite takes stam which was needed but the health buff was not neccessary imo

[tacit oriole]

Deinos are unkillable in water now, except vs stegos, but on land far from water even utahs can kill them fairly easily

[frosty heron]

If Stego got health buff based on weight, Deino health should get buffed too

[empty cosmos]

I find Deinos soooo boring to play

They're just campers lmao

[alpine plover]

Yeah they kinda are, but that’s because the lack of playables it can hunt

[worldly venture]

I mean yeah stuff like that is why I played so much dryo in up 2 and 3, but of course once I realised that I could be a demon spawn I chose that life

[wide cosmos]

HP nerf of the Utah went way too hard. It's no match to a carno. Carnos will run rampant on land with no competition. It was hard enough to take down carnos as a pack, now its almost impossible.

[tacit oriole]

If you get a deino middle of plains west of pond, 3 utahs can bleed it out before it can get back, it's great

[raw sparrow]

and those deinos deserve the death

[golden coral]

Fair enough, to each their own and all that. I just find a bit more fun in tricking them than outright harming them I think.

[golden coral]

That's what gators do you know. :p

[alpine plover]

They sit and wait

[golden coral]

Why would there be a deino in the middle of the plains?.. ^^

[alpine plover]

because

they can press w

[golden coral]

You realize how stupid that sounds right? :p

[tacit oriole]

Well in our case because they got TPd, but land crocs were a thing U3

[brittle dirge]

it was

starting health was reduced but its max hp was increased

[tacit oriole]

Going to see a lot more cannibalism in deinos now they can't just bait and body carnos on land

[golden coral]

Well yes, but you got to admit the "picture" of it is a bit hilarious xD

[tacit oriole]

Yup

[alpine plover]

The Isle

[worldly venture]

Maybe both?

[tacit oriole]

Find it

[alpine plover]

I won’t because this game sucks I’m deleting it scam (wait I can’t say that now)

[empty cosmos]

yea i hate the health buff of deinos

[wide cosmos]

Main thing that bothers me is that I see Utahs as competitors to Carnos. Before update it took 16 bites to kill a carno and 2-3 bites from carno to kill a Utah. Now Utah pack gonna be easy pickings for Carnos since it will take 1-2 bites to kill a Utah.

[tacit oriole]

Survive The Isle, or STI for short

[worldly venture]

Just a fight with a juvi, maybe fresh sub tah, so glad they're still easy to deal with as dryo

[empty cosmos]

new raptor sound is cool

[alpine plover]

does it sound any different?

[tacit oriole]

Usually 3 bites still, bit damage nerf and hitbox fixes makes 2-shotting them harder

[empty cosmos]

yea lol they made it the jurassic park sound

I liked the old raptor sound too

[tacit oriole]

But the 1-shot from charge is brutal

Especially with the short windup now

[wide cosmos]

Carno charge one shots Utah and it has no cooldown

[primal dove]

f u n n y.

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, and hitting one doesn't stop the charge, so you can mow through a few in one go

[wide cosmos]

Alt bite is also much faster so flanking or trying to dodge carnos even harder now

You'll loose your whole pack before you kill single carno

[alpine plover]

can carno even fight teno now?

[frosty heron]

Carno gonna be doing Thomas the train memes with Utahs now

[hollow canyon]

The number of bites that Carno needs to kill a Utah hasn't changed

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, tailridding is not even close to possible

[alpine plover]

make you you try to tail ride a deino, I think it’s a great idea

[tacit oriole]

Plus base of tail is only 60% damage on carnos

[worldly venture]

I see that being pounced from half a mile away is still a problem, how fun

[alpine plover]

Nice

Exactly what we wanted

[hollow canyon]

Also Utahs aren't meant to be Carno's competitors, the two hunt completely different prey items. Carno's trash at fighting large stuff but handles medium/smaller animals better, whilst Utah can actually take down the likes of Stego(and Deino if it crawls too far in land).

[tacit oriole]

The problem is: what the hell is Utah meant to hunt now?

Dryo? Nobody going to play that

[hollow canyon]

Stego and animals that are still growing

[empty cosmos]

wtf why did the carno bug of showing health depleting as you're growing actually take health now lmao

[wide cosmos]

That wasn't the problem I understand that carno is bigger and stronger than Utah and it makes sense for it to take that many bites. Problem is that utahs will die to easy to them

[frosty heron]

Stego? Nah they will be in mixed Herds with Tenos

[hollow canyon]

And yea it can hunt Dryo/Hypsi too obviously but I'm not even counting those guys

[raw sparrow]

means utah players have to actually move out and look for food

[alpine plover]

I’m gonna miss murdering everything with dryo now

[tacit oriole]

So only unaccompanied minors? Think that's a reliable source of food?

[hollow canyon]

They're dying just as easily as they did before

[tacit oriole]

Most people grow with parents these days

[empty cosmos]

WHY AM I TAKING DAMAGE WHEN I DIDNT TAKE ANY DAMAGE

[hollow canyon]

That shouldn't be a thing anymore when they release the diets

[alpine plover]

I think that’s your hp growing or something

punch said something about that I think

[hollow canyon]

You're not taking damage, you're just growing. Your max HP and blood pool are increasing but your current HP is not increasing as fast.

[tacit oriole]

$50 says tenos outnumber utahs and carnos combined this Friday night lol

[frosty heron]

Only God knows when that's gonna happen, for now herds gonna be unkillable

[hollow canyon]

Quite likely, it might be the biggest winner of this patch honestly

[frosty heron]

And I really dislike that

[hollow canyon]

I know, mixherds are absolutely toxic and shouldn't be a thing

[alpine plover]

Imagine pachy and teno herds

[wide cosmos]

Nope utahs are one shot by anything bigger than it. Before you could retreat if you got bit. Now you'll just drop dead.

[versed rune]

i just grew a dryo for shits and giggles and can confirm, no one will play it. it feels super slow and its turn radius is terrible now. i get they want people to use the dodge but the dodge still sucks too.

[alpine plover]

NOOOOO

dryo isn’t good anymore

[frosty heron]

Poor Lil guy Dryo

[tacit oriole]

Broken yes, toxic no. It's 100% natural for herbivores to stay close to other herbivores

It was alright before but it will be super extra broken now

[versed rune]

dryo def needed a speed nerf to make it feel more fun cuz it aint fun if you can escape literally anything with pure speed alone, but the mobility nerf was quite unnecessary

[hollow canyon]

Say that to the elephants that decide some rhinoceros looked at them the wrong way

[empty cosmos]

Why was everyone complaining about dryo lmao

[golden coral]

And how much I wish that wasnt a thing.. xD

[tacit oriole]

Yeah but that's apexes. Bison pack with buffalo pack with zebra pack with antelope

[worldly venture]

I believe that megaherds are toxic, but not mixherds

[frosty heron]

But it will and same with Teno megapacks out of the limits, it just happens

[tacit oriole]

Only giraffe and elephants are too untouchable to bother mixherding

[hollow canyon]

They only get oneshot by a Tenonto if it lands a headshot with the tailslam and by Deino's bite. Carno doesn't oneshot them with their normal bite. Unless you're talking about being able to retreat after missing the pounce.

[tacit oriole]

Also lol I know the video you watched, that's just classic cranky old bull elephant stunts, like rabid stegos. They like to tip landrovers over too

[golden coral]

Mixherding is as unbalanced as mixpacking, and therein lies the issue with them.

[versed rune]

i * heard * carno does devastating damage to a utah with its charge now, but i havent tested this. can anyone confirm or deny that

[wide cosmos]

Mix packing herbies are fine. Mix packing herbies and carnivores are toxic

[hollow canyon]

They are absolutely toxic - you have multiple species of different herbivores covering for each other's weaknesses and making each other capable of handling and killing things that they shouldn't be able to hunt and kill. Those are no better than mixpacks and hopefully are gone into oblivion with the release of the diets.

[golden coral]

No, mixpacking herbis are not fine. It's just as unbalanced as mixpacking carnis. Why do you think stego + teno is fine but carno + utahs is not?

[hollow canyon]

^

[tacit oriole]

I respect the position you are coming from, but almost all RP servers alow mixherds for a reason

[golden coral]

Yes, because they're "RP" and not realistic :p

[tacit oriole]

Mixherds is realistic, it just isnt good for gameplay

[wide cosmos]

Carno and Utah mixpacking is also not ok, maybe I worded it incorrectly. Herbies mixpacking makes sense since their abilities are defensive.

[hollow canyon]

It really doesn't matter what RP servers allow. It's down to their owners what they do with it but it's not how the game is meant to be played.

[golden coral]

I don't think the abilities being offensive or defensive makes a difference. If you're trying to hunt a tenonto as two carnos, and it has four stego bodyguards...

You see the issue right?

[hollow canyon]

^

[golden coral]

Or the other way around

[tacit oriole]

I guess we'll have to wait and see how hard Afterthought pushes against mixherds with diets and other mechanics.

[empty cosmos]

but isn't the reason people hate mixpacking because it ruins their immersion? Herbivores mixpack irl

[golden coral]

You find a small stego, sub or so. You're a utah pack, but the stego has 6 adult tenontos with it

[worldly venture]

Let me rephrase, some mixherds are not toxic, like ones with only a couple creatures, or ones with smalls and larges

[wide cosmos]

Would make no difference if it had 4 teno bodyguards, you are comparing number at this point

[tacit oriole]

Mixpacks yes, but mixherds is just broken from a gameplay point of view

[hollow canyon]

It only breaks the balance if animals are allowed to pack with other species. Some specific species might be allowed to pack with one another but it should only be allowed in specific circumstances and be very limited.

[worldly venture]

Massive groups of tenos and stegos and shit is definitely cringe though

[golden coral]

It would because of what they can do. The tenontos can all be handled a certain way, the stegos another.

Tenonto stuns carno, stego kills it

[empty cosmos]

Personally I don't mind anyone defensively mixpacking. It's when people aggressively mixpack going around killing everyone that I hate

[tacit oriole]

IRL animals mixherds BECAUSE it's such a strong strategy

[hollow canyon]

I mind people mixpacking in any way, it just shouldn't be allowed

[empty cosmos]

They'd ruin the game if they put rules on the server tho

[tacit oriole]

But it's too strong for the game to be balanced around

[hollow canyon]

It's not supposed to be done via rules, it will be enforced via diets

[golden coral]

Except irl they only tolerate, don't actively cooperate, 95% of the time at least

[empty cosmos]

I've been put on a "mixpacking hitlist" twice when I wasn't even mixpacking

It would be awful to have it as a rule

Diets yeah that makes sense

[tacit oriole]

I stopped caring what those sort of people thought of me long ago lol

[golden coral]

xD

[tacit oriole]

Won't be labelled a canni but screw the rwst

[wide cosmos]

I wish it was that simple. Also I tenno could do the same thing stun you and dog pile you. Outcome is the same no matter the species if they have number on you

[golden coral]

Diets will hopefully fix mixing/megapacking

[worldly venture]

Isle hitlists are great, I get to take note of asshole players and cannibalise the shit out of them if I see em again

[tacit oriole]

Also: when did this become #isle-discussion

[empty cosmos]

This one time this guy saw me drinking water and the croc didn't go after me and he spent 2 days following me around finding me to kill me

Saying I was a mixpacker

[worldly venture]

Oh no that's cringe, I don't actively seek people out, just fucking murder them if I find em

[golden coral]

It is, but numbers can be compensated for with what you have instead. In any case, you can cover for weaknesses with other critters, and that makes it unbalanced, at least to me. Sure, numbers can mitigate or make it worse, but even so, the main point is that it's still bad.

[tacit oriole]

Some people just cannot wrap their heads around carnivores only killing when they are hungry

[empty cosmos]

I love hanging out with different dinos when there's a lot of food. I see no problem with it

But I would never team up with different dinos to go out killing

that seems unfair

[tacit oriole]

Same. I'll join in a pond tea party in the full knowledge that a hungry carno might turn me into a snack

But I won't help another species make a kill

[empty cosmos]

Love pond tea parties

[alpine plover]

I just realized I had a full grown tenonto saved on an Eu server

I know what to do now

[empty cosmos]

Anyway it doesn't make sense to kill more than you can eat

[tacit oriole]

Some people just want to play the Dinosaur Fighting Game and tell all kinds of moral driven narratives to make their preference seem like the ethical choice

[empty cosmos]

looool

[wide cosmos]

It's bad is just a statement, you haven't made a point why herbies shouldn't mixpack. Herbies don't have offensive ability or ability to chase you down. Carnis can choose the engagement and disengage whenever. Thats my point on why herbies mixpacking are fine and carnis not

[tacit oriole]

Anyway I'm going to head to bed before a mod yells at us for being off topic, night all - I'll have Stam and hopefully bleed data for you all by this time tomorrow

[golden coral]

Alright. Look in legacy. Carno/Rex team, means you can't both escape or fight. Maia/Trike team = does the same. Or diablo/trike team, or whatever you prefer. Gallis can act as scouts and harassers, and any time spent trying to get them, is time the trike murder squad uses to catch up. You can play the same way with both carnis and herbis. Same in Evrima. Use dryo/tenonto to run the utah down. Granted, now with dryo nerf, you can't, but you could before.

But even if it was purely defense, you could still combo things like stun + damage. Hypsi spit + sudden charge of something else. Stego covering something else drinking. Being able to hide behind something that if it was it's own species, your group would be able to approach.

[wild cove]

Okay but the whole point of Utah is you're not supposed to be soloing big game... its a pack hunter. You should be hunting in a pack. Saying Utah is bad because it can't solo Stegos is just ridiculous and completely missing the point of what Utah is supposed to be. At that point, yeah you SHOULD be playing a different dino. One that is designed for solo play specifically.

[wide cosmos]

Using legacy as an example don't make sense. They are very different games machanicaly. Seem like the point you are trying to make is that herbies should be easy pickings. The example you gave for evrima is also incorrect. Tenno would not be able to run down Utah and if dryo tried it would be dead. All other combos you mention is meant to defend against carnis.

[wild cove]

Honestly having a bigger dino protect another smaller dino when it goes to get a drink or something like that isn't even half as bad as you're making it sound lol

If people are mix-herding or mix-packing specifically to go track other players down and roflstomp them, then sure, it can be pretty toxic

If people are just grouping up to play defensively that's a different issue imo

[golden coral]

I assure you, before this patch, dryo/teno could run down utahs. That was a thing. And the main point is that you can defend with your own species, but then you're limited to the power that yields, and the abilities you have. Instead of covering your weaknesses with something else. Two tenontos is not the same to fight as one teno and one trike for a pair of carnos.

[golden coral]

Defensively is still breaking the balance, and even drinking can be an issue. How do you solve that when you want to lunge the teno but it hides like a baby stego behind the adult stegos? :p

[wild cove]

If they want to play that way, let them, but I've seldom ever seen Teno hiding behind Stego. Might change with the update but its no worse than a pack of utahs rolling with a Carno buddy decimating everything in its path. Both happen. Whether it "should" happen is irrelevant to whether it actually DOES happen.

[raw sparrow]

for people saying utahs are too weak, are u playing it as intended?

[golden coral]

And all I'm saying is that both sides, and things, causes imbalances that should not happen. Does it happen, yes. Should it happen, no. Not in my eyes at least. That's all there is to it. I was just trying to say that mixing, be it carni/carni, carni/herbi, or herbi/herbi, all causes balance issues and such. People like to not think that herbi mixing causes issues but it does, just as much as carni mixing does.

[wide cosmos]

Is the intention to only hunt dryos?

[golden coral]

If you're fine with people mixing, that's perfectly fine by me, we'll just play on different servers :p

[wide cosmos]

We're just have a discussion. I honestly don't know any servers that don't allow herbie mixing

[wild cove]

I mean I think the main difference though is carni's mix-packing is more of a problem because they're designed to seek and kill. Most Herbi's are not, they're meant to defend when attacked. Not all dinos are created equal, obviously, so if you have Dryos and Hypsi mix-packing with Stego for protection, for instance, that's really not that big of a deal. Diets should also inhibit big herbi's from forming megapacks, but if you think Hypsi + Teno or Dryo + Stego is breaking balance when some Herbi's have a clear disadvantage to all Carni's, idk what to tell you.

Its just playing smart to hang around other dinos that are more capable of wrecking predators. Unless you think small, more defenseless dinos should just suck it up and die for "balance", which at that point is just openly favoring some people should be allowed to enjoy playing the game and others shouldn't.

[raw sparrow]

@wide cosmos are dryos the only thing you can hunt?

[wide cosmos]

With this update seems like it

[raw sparrow]

@wide cosmos you think utahs are intended to play solo?

[brittle dirge]

it absolutely makes a difference when Carni's generally have better mobility than herbi's do on top of abilities designed to be used offensively, and in this example here you can just..get more Carno's to help with the hunt or just move on to something else. Carni's always have the option of picking their battles whereas herbi's don't really have that. the fight always comes to them. now I agree that herds can be unbalanced but not to the same extent that mixpacking carni's can

[golden coral]

@runic cliffBecause they were not meant to be troll critters. They got the damage nerf because they're not meant to be doing damage to anything but their own or similar sized I guess.

[golden coral]

Yeah. I don't mind talking about it? I just said I'm fine with if you or someone else likes it, all it means is that we'll play on whatever server suits us since I dislike it.

[wild cove]

Dryo, Hypsi, crocs if they're stupid enough to try to Land Tank, and Stego if you can actually get a group to properly coordinate, which Utahs should be doing anyway. They're designed for group play, not soloing

Teno too if you can coordinate with your group

[wide cosmos]

Absolutely not. That's why I like playing Utah because of pack gameplay. But now in order to kill tenno or carno as a pack, you'll loose most if not whole pack

[wild cove]

I hate to be "that guy", but its partially a Learn To Play issue with Utah now, and actually play as a group instead of trying to be a solo brawler.

[wide cosmos]

Also a random deino bite will insta kill adult utah

[golden coral]

I can agree that one combat-able and one non-combat able "mixing" can be fine, same with carnivores really. But the issue is mostly those where everyone involved can do combat and be good at it. But I also believe that every critter should be fine on it's own, and not need anyone else, much less anyone of a different species, to be survivable. That's just bad balance. A dryo does not need to be defended by a stego, it can run and hide, as it should.

[wild cove]

Or a bunch of randos just running in to spam bite

[golden coral]

Because you can make the same argument for small carnivores being hunted by big carnivores, just like small herbivores. It's far better to make every playable capable of survival on it's own, not reliant on herd/packmates, and especially not reliant on other species. Not sure where you got that I would think small things should just "suck it up and die"?

[raw sparrow]

@wide cosmos this isnt legacy, its gonna require a few more calories to think about how to get your food, a pack of utahs is more than capable of taking down a carno.. pounce has been buffed, you even try it?

[oak wind]

can't bring down a Stego as Utahs

It is an anti flanker and getting in water is a good strategy.

[wide cosmos]

I play with a pack, we use VC and know the mechanics and how to play as a Utah. Before you had a chance to retreat and hunt another day if you got hurt. Now everyone just dies over and over to one shots. It's not fun.

[oak wind]

Stego is fine. Just need something able to take it down such as Acro or shit like Allo in packs.

Also Dryo damages were ridiculously high.

Some animals do not need to fight in order to be able to survive.

Look at Dryo, Galli and such animals.

Even with high skill.

They should be skilled at escaping, which will be more efficient and take less risks.

[wild cove]

Technically most dinos already are capable of surviving on their own without relying on a herd or pack.

But "being capable of" and being fun to do are two separate things. I can survive easily as a Hypsi by myself by always running away from everything. But that's no fun. Why am I playing a multiplayer game to never encounter other players except to avoid them? I'd go play something else.

If I decide to mixherd with some stegos and tenos and a pack of utahs or carnos attacks me or the other dinos there, it should expect retaliation, whether that's a stego tail swing or hypsi acid spit to the face, or whatever else is going on. If some people get mad about that, that's a personal issue. The Isle combat for carnis has relied way too much on mindless Run-And-Spam-Bite combat for way too long, imo.

I'm personally eager to see people actually play with skill and thought involved, not Mindlessly Bite Til It Dies. Which I think this update should help with, at least with the people willing to adapt.

That's not to say its perfect, of course, but I think the direction its going is the right direction.

[oak wind]

Thing is that, you do your live. You eat, drink, mate, migrate and then when there is a player, there is the pressure to be hunted and get caught like the cat and mouth game when you're a kidoo.

Animals focusing more on their abilities is good.

Tbh.

It makes then more interesting than before and should be encourage to act that way.

[golden coral]

You should go find other hypsis and make a treehouse! I completely understand the lack of fun or appeal of being social, I just believe it should be with your own kind and thus avoid balance issues or otherwise. And while I can agree somewhat on your stance on carni combat, I don't think mixing is the answer to that. I quite agree on everything being skill related, I wouldn't mind if stego got something as it's own ability to work with for that matter. I think it's just that to me, it's your life and possibly your species. Anyone else is either predator, prey, or irrelevant. So you should not care, as a hypsi, if the tenonto is being murdered by a carno or two.

[wild cove]

That'd be a great suggestion if tree jumping wasn't broken af and carni's couldn't still grab you out of trees lol

As for whether or not I should care if a Teno or something else is being murdered that I'm herding with... who do you think they're going to kill next when the Teno is dead? lol

[golden coral]

I know, but I think dev confirmed that cool picture of nest building and things like that in trees for hypsi in the future. So that could make hypsi gameplay a bit more interesting. Especially if juvie utahs, and herreras and things would come by.

[wild cove]

It could, yeah, but that's still a couple updates off

[golden coral]

But yeah, though that's why you run away while they're busy murdering said tenonto. Though I will admit I'm a bit frustrated when people try to hide behind me as stego, they're just getting in the way of me fighting you know.

And if I do accidentally kill one of them while trying to get the predator, they like to yell at me... :p

[wild cove]

Eh its stupid to get mad if someone accidentally hit you with friendly fire imo

That's a personal problem for them at that point

[oak wind]

If someone die in my pack

[golden coral]

So I guess I mostly want whoever is mixing with me to not expect me to care, I will preserve my own life, and if you're in my way, then that's on you. At least how it feels for me.

[oak wind]

I just run away

And take the time to get out of the situation LOL

[wild cove]

I can agree on that lol

[golden coral]

But I trust you can see why I would dislike dryos or stuff trying to run around me or hide behind me when I try to fight and keep myself alive. If you want to mix with me, fine, I'll tolerate you, but... be aware that I am out for myself first and you are acceptable collateral... :p

[wild cove]

Hypsi already dies to so many things so easily its dumb to get mad when you die as one

Its just par for the course

[oak wind]

Hypsi is designed to just be like a sandbox animal

[golden coral]

But I don't mind other herbis keeping me company, I just dislike the idea that we're all one big herd and I have to care about anyone else you know :p

[oak wind]

And I think it should never get growth tbh

Like all other smalls of its size.

[wild cove]

But wut about the RPers!

lol

[oak wind]

I'm myself a RPers

Not a dock though

And I'm against some things because of the community

[wild cove]

I am as well 😛 Just not in the Isle lol

Anyway I was joking XD

[oak wind]

Like, piss and shit isn't bad but will be used so dumbly by the com so I do not want of that.

[wild cove]

Either way I don't think mix-herds totally break balance any more than it breaks balance if 10 Stegos team up instead of 1 Stego and 3 Tenos and 2 Dryos and 4 Hypsis

[oak wind]

Thing is that in the current roster, Tenonto can stun and so then Stego just come and jabs.

Personally, I'm fine with mix pack as long as it only is like moving together.

[wild cove]

Carno and Utah can both outpace Stego and Teno though, and choose other prey if they want to

They're not forced to engage

Hypsi, Dryo, and Ptera and Deino are still all options if they can catch them

As are going and finding lone Teno and Stego, esp fresh spawns

[oak wind]

That's the thing with those carnivores and herbivores.

Right now, only Carnis can engage.

[wild cove]

Which is probably how it should be tbh

[oak wind]

For current herbivores, yes.

[wild cove]

Honestly I don't think giving some Herbis more love right now is a bad thing. The Isle has had a loooooooong problem with Carni overpopulation

[oak wind]

I can see some of the upcoming one be the one to engage like ceratopsians.

[golden coral]

@dawn falconHow good/bad is the bleed? Has it been tested very much?

[oak wind]

I wonder if he tried in a pack or not.

If you pounce alone a Ten, Carno or Steg of course it will be worthless.

I can see large packs of Utahs taking down in long hunts larger animals with relay strategy.

[golden coral]

Why do people think small animals should hunt large animals? That's not really what should happen in most cases, barring a few exceptions designed for it. And even then, "large" animals is a very broad term.

[wild cove]

Honestly I don't understand the complaints about "Stego takes a long time to kill" like they're expecting to just rampage murder a 6000 ton animal in a few seconds

[golden coral]

No idea why that was bad in legacy... that's hardly the issues in legacy at least not to me

[oak wind]

Stego is a fortress for the current roster, and should be an anti flanker tbh.

[golden coral]

And if that testing earlier was accurate, then 5 min with 4 utahs cycling will kill a stego. That's.. not long at all, barely even the start of a hunt honestly.

[oak wind]

Which makes it unattackable for current carnivores as they all are flankers.

So rn it is fine.

[wild cove]

I don't really play Carni's that much or Stego but I'd rather have a long, drawn-out fight that was hard-won than just "lol bite 3 times u ded"

It feels more meaningful imo

[golden coral]

I was once hunted by a trio of carnos as stego, and this was with the thagomizer trick being a thing. Because of my planning and positioning, it took them over an hour and a half to kill me. They had to go off and get ai dryos on the nearby field to buy more time.

Now that was a proper, long and well done hunt, and those carnos deserved that kill ever so much.

[oak wind]

But Utah and Allo players like to be able to take down things quickly.

Ngl, back in the days even if it was almost impossible, I loved to hunt Puertas as apexes.

Even just Youngs.

I almost did it someday as a Rex to a young sandbox Puerta.

Took me like half a hour

Until he logged out

[wild cove]

Kinda what I mean though, ya. When you can just spam-kill everything easily, kills are pretty meaningless. No challenge, no real accomplishment.

Like why do people think Carnos and Utahs would try to take on full adult Deino before the nerf constantly

Its not like they don't know Deino could wreck everything easily

Yet people constantly threw themselves at Deino. I assume for some challenge

Granted some people are also just dumb

[oak wind]

Deino destroying current roster if they come to it is normal tbh.

Wait for larger animals.

Larger predators.

[golden coral]

If I hadn't planned ahead and had flowers nearby to eat, I would have died a lot sooner. I was planning on starving them out/forcing them into a more direct engagement to kill them, but I forgot there were easy AI dryos on the plains out there, and with them being three, they could obviously take turns. But that was well done on their side, and the fact that they had patience to hunt a single stego for over an hour, was impressive to me at least.

That's some actual patience and work.

[wild cove]

Exactly

I'd rather see that kind of stuff than people just running around killing everything in sight with ease so you have 50 dead bodies and nobody is eating them

Because killing everything in sight is effortless

That's only fun if you think mindlessly killing everything in sight is good gameplay

Its not

[dawn falcon]

A full pounce will drain about 1/4 a carnos bleed gauge.

Not to mention Utah is slow

Carno with its alt bite can turn incredibly fast, which is not good when Utah is so slow

[wild cove]

Tbh I think of it kinda like Rex mains on Legacy, who like to brag about how good they are at the game even though they're playing an OP dino that is LITERALLY broken with its fucky bite box that always 1-shots everything on a specific side of it

[golden coral]

How does it work vs stego. I'd say those are better prey than the predator designed to hunt you. :p

Or teno for that matter. Though those are also a bit more dangerous.

[dawn falcon]

I’ve only tested it with Carno

I’ll try testing with Stego sometime today

[golden coral]

Let me know how it works on other matchups too.

[dawn falcon]

Also wtf is this new balance feedback post

[golden coral]

?

[versed rune]

I think the basic takeaway here is that the speed nerfs were a terrible idea because now people have all the reaction time in the world to counter something instead of being proactive

[dawn falcon]

I don’t think the speed nerfs were terrible

The rubberbanding makes it hard to tell

[versed rune]

This is true

[golden coral]

Better people have reaction time than not.

There are many other ways to hunt and fight than just baits and trying to time stuff

[dawn falcon]

It’s just that Utah has a slower turn and mobility which makes it easier to be hit.

[versed rune]

You could still react before though. Quite quickly

[dawn falcon]

Just barely

[golden coral]

Eh, I think things were a bit too fast before

[versed rune]

I haven’t tested utah yet, what does it feel like

[golden coral]

Maybe slightly too slow now, but things did need to be slowed down overall

[indigo vigil]

Im so salt as a utah main rn I swear to shit

[dawn falcon]

Feels great outside of combat, but in combat, unless it’s a stego, dryo, or smaller teno, your mobility makes you easier to be hit.

[golden coral]

Wouldn't know much on speeds, since I play stego and we're not fast to being with. But I don't think things were good before, that was just too fast in general, and caused performance issues at that.

[indigo vigil]

it was so fun before, now its an AI

[dawn falcon]

So like

[indigo vigil]

I feel like carno vs 2 utahs should be 50 50, man It takes 2 mega mains in which usually dont even kill it if a carno knows what its doing

[dawn falcon]

The matchups for Utah v. Stego, Dryo, and sub teno is pretty good

It

But

Utah v. Carno, unless Utah is in a pack of like 5-6, it’s even harder to take down a carno

[golden coral]

Well, that's fair I think

[dawn falcon]

Especially that alt bite

[golden coral]

Carno is your desginated hunter

You see one, you run the hell away

[indigo vigil]

Dude stego us untouchable

[golden coral]

It's not, by any means. You got a safe dismount now, enjoy that!

[dawn falcon]

Well, it would be better if half the pack didn’t die in the fight to kill a carno

Atleast imo

[versed rune]

The performance feels worse this update to be honest, my frames have tanked by about 10 personally. And I get that things felt too fast paced but you have to remember that our two terrestrial carnivores are the two fastest carnivores that will ever be in the game, and we have no reference point as far as slower carnivores go

[golden coral]

Well, 2-3 utahs could probably discourage the carno if it insists. 4+ should make a carno worry if you have a plan for how to handle it?

[indigo vigil]

Who wants to play a creature that cannot fight anything, only thing MAYBE you couldve fight a good bit ago was tenonto and under, which is ptera/hyspie/dryo, who plays these things?

[golden coral]

To survive. It's a survival game. If you're not content with surviving, then well... that's on you?

[dawn falcon]

Yeah but with that alt bite, it can lunge super quickly when you dismount, prob getting a tail hit.

[golden coral]

Well yes, fps and rubberbanding. But I meant that the whole weird hitboxes/teleporting/shit like that, I think has to do with speed.

[dawn falcon]

But I’m hoping it’s just the rubberbanding that makes things feel bad

[versed rune]

It probably did to be honest, the animations looked very jittery with the higher speeds

But

[golden coral]

@versed runeWhen Evrima first came out, utahs were fast, and they teleported and all sorts of shenanigans. That's what I mean. The game can't handle too high speeds, for any playable. Carno was fast, and it.. kind of weirded out the hitbox I think. It had issues with that.

[versed rune]

It feels like we sacrificed control over our dinosaurs this update

They feel a lot clunkier

[indigo vigil]

Your excuse is 1 small thing isle quoted, while a good game should have playable characters that are all fun, utah is not fun, it is a nightmare, as a utah main only way I can survive is if I go full sweat and after a good hour you wanna crush your utahs skull in

[golden coral]

Didnt the dismount distance help there? Is that only vs stego? But a tailhit, especially a tip of the tail, is survivable right?

[golden coral]

I'll play utah to and see how good it is in a bit, though rubberbanding isnt helping anyone so I'll let them fix that first. And how is utah not fun, if you can still hunt stegos, dryos, most likely tenos, and probably even smaller carnos at that.

[indigo vigil]

Erik I get a utah is a low tier and should be weak, but a good pair of 2 low tiers should be able to fight in a 50-50 against a mid tier

[golden coral]

Not if that "midtier" is designated to shit on it

If it was a "large cerato" then maybe

[versed rune]

I’m kinda on the fence about utah/carno. Like a carno should be a hard counter to utah, but on the same token two coordinated Utahs should be able to bring one down. Two good Utahs could definitely take out a carno last patch, but can they still do it now?

[indigo vigil]

The thing is people dont play dryos or tenontos enough to make utahs worth it, carnos do megapacks, OTHER utahs cannibalise because lets face it, its the only thing they can comfortably kill, and only stego a utah can kill is a 75 growth and below, plus a low tier shouldn't be too uppy with fighting apexes, from what devs said and I agree on that

[golden coral]

Or something similar, but carno specifically is designed to hunt smaller stuff. And teno is also, designed to fight back viciously. As is Pachy. As it stands, most of the roster are not really good prey, utah needs a bunch of stuff like galli, maia, maybe a ceratopsid, and so on.

[versed rune]

Of course if the carno knows what it’s doing it can easily thrash those two Utahs even if they’re coordinated

[indigo vigil]

Erik Im talking about evrima, and yeah I know carno should be a counter to utah, so is teno, and the thing is, I like teno, but I despise carno, since tenono has to be smart, while a carnos a run at utah and bite

[golden coral]

You can kill a full grown stego pretty well now if you have 3-4 utahs or more and the stego isn't just hunkered up in a perfect position. Cycle pounce and it will bleed out.

[dawn falcon]

Yeah

It’s easier to kill a stego

[indigo vigil]

you two utah mains?

[dawn falcon]

Just gotta be careful that sometimes you won’t latch when pouncing

[golden coral]

I was talking about Evrima too? Pachy is coming here so :P

[dawn falcon]

I’ve played more Utah than anything else yeah

[golden coral]

No, not by any means, but I have played it a little, especially before this update, and I've tested with it. I'm familiar enough to have the basics down.

[indigo vigil]

not galli/maia/cera/dilo or any of those

[golden coral]

They're coming in time. Galli and cera and dilo is on the trello...

And we know they'll move over all the legacy dinos at some point, more or less

[indigo vigil]

Well fuck me I have never seen a good pack of utahs take a steg down, and maybe with this time it will be better fighting steg, but still, before that you couldnt pounce as well as head run ins is also a death zone due to ur hitbox lagging behind you

[indigo vigil]

Why add utah as the first dino of the game if so, it shouldve been low tiers and up, not suddenly everything that would kill utah besides 3 little midgets which cannot fight for anything

[dawn falcon]

You really.. REALLY need to be careful with stegos now. That new turn could be the end of you

Saw a Utah miss a pounce cause a stego turned out of the way of the pounce

[golden coral]

I don't know why they chose utah and teno as the first animal. I think it's because of utah having the pounce, and teno probably for a good opponent.

[dawn falcon]

And got turned into a kebab

[indigo vigil]

I liked teno vs utah first time, now its turning more into "hey everyone go bully utah"

[golden coral]

First time?

[indigo vigil]

I can still fight tenontos, not too much disagreement with time

[dawn falcon]

Utah just needs more bleed damage so far and better mobility and it’s fine.

[indigo vigil]

Yep :/ ig

I used to have fun training as a utah and being an actual danger if im smart

[dawn falcon]

The nerfs weren’t really all too bad. They just forgot a couple things that threw Utah off the boards

[indigo vigil]

which are..?

[golden coral]

If utah can still bleed a stego out in 2-3 pounces, then I don't know if it needs more

[indigo vigil]

its dmg is 55, I really dont agree with that

[dawn falcon]

Better mobility and bleed damage lol

It should be relying on pounce not it’s bite

[golden coral]

Maybe carno needs to bleed more instead

[dawn falcon]

That should be for smaller creatures

[golden coral]

I imagine a carno should not want to be bleeding at all

[indigo vigil]

well wouldnt you know, speed isnt an option since you'll get hit behind you a good 4m away

ON THE BODY.

and bleed, maybe yeah it'd be good

but it cannot get the hits in for the bleed nor with pounce or bite, why, well its health is shit, and pounce 5 ticks bucking and utah cannot run anymore

and a short pounce does almost nothing..

[dawn falcon]

Which

Is

Why

I said

Better bleed

Damage

[indigo vigil]

eh, maybe..

but it'll die before anything

from hp or stam

[dawn falcon]

And mobility should be better by far. Utah is a fragile agile rat, or atleast it’s supposed to be

[indigo vigil]

The engine dont allow that :,))

[dawn falcon]

So don’t get hit (easier said then done)

Or just conserve stam

But

[indigo vigil]

I do, though as I said engine is breaking the utah

[dawn falcon]

Utah just needs better bleed and mobility and it won’t die as much

[indigo vigil]

I do see your point but the engine just wont allow, remember wifi isnt perfect for everyone

even mine(lithuanian wifi which is one of the tops) can really suffer with the game with a 1.4k gaming pc

its also the other players wifi that affects the fight

[dawn falcon]

Wdym the engine won’t allow it. I don’t remember engines not allowing you to balance a creature? Or adjust its stats

Or

Do you mean the performance

[indigo vigil]

and well you should know potato pcs and piss wifi players love bullying

[indigo vigil]

performance

and sadly if you get limited by internet stuff, you gotta work around it (in my view)

[dawn falcon]

Agreed

That’s just something the devs have to work on

[indigo vigil]

so instead give the utah more stam and more dmg, a bit more bleed with 500hp possibly

[dawn falcon]

Luckily Filipe said he found one of the causes for the rubberbanding last night

Well we’ll see from then on

[dawn falcon]

Weight reflects its health

So whatever Utah weighs will be it’s health

[indigo vigil]

yeah, I know , tho thats what I mean, make both 500

I also wouldn't complain about like 650...

[dawn falcon]

Nah

That would cause more balance issues

[indigo vigil]

But thats me

yeah prob

[dawn falcon]

specially since Utah could PIN a sub teno

When it weighed more

[indigo vigil]

yeah Id like that

[dawn falcon]

I don’t

Pinning a sub teno means it could pin even dilo which isn’t a good thing

[indigo vigil]

But ima go now to test myself stuff, also install anti cheat ig? randomly need it now for isle

[dawn falcon]

Cause of all the foliage hackers

[indigo vigil]

Id say pinning should also have a buck

[dawn falcon]

Yeah that too

It’s confirmed luckily

[indigo vigil]

Dont make it op though, cuz fuuuuucks sakes, 5 ticks 0 stam

I shall repeat this until my death XD

anyway adios.. nice to see rickardo you can take both sides of the story and aren't stuck up on one side, need more people like that when you discuss stuff

[dawn falcon]

No problem

[golden coral]

@indigo vigilYou could up agility I think. It's the raw speed that fucks shit up from my experience. So utah could get agility back, but not speed, and still not cause trouble.

Or at least I think so..

[indigo vigil]

it'd look unrealistic prob, and for a game like the isle, ehhhhh

[golden coral]

Maybe so, just wanted to clarify, since you mentioned engine breaking :p

Which is unfortunately not inaccurate.. xD

[dawn falcon]

Yeah I think better agility would work

A better turn speed so it can dodge Carno

[indigo vigil]

carnos got one hell of a turn too however

If you are playing right though

[golden coral]

@primal doveYes. Utah is the designated large game hunter. Granted, I believe it should be different difficulties depending on the apex/large animal and how it functions, and I believe it should take a full, or close to full pack to have the amount of power needed to take one on in a reasonably comfortable manner.

[primal dove]

not only utah basically any pack hunter

some people talked about herds being very strong like 3h ago i think im fine with that, but the same should also go for experienced and cooperative packs

[golden coral]

I would say it depends on the packhunter

Not everyone plays the same and has the same abilities, keep that in mind

Utah has pounce, it's a very specifically good mechanic vs large animals cause of the safe in attacking, assuming you land the pounce. Just running in and biting as some other pack hunter might do would be far more dangerous, and less suited to be used vs too large or too powerful animals.

Also size and stuff has to be taken into account

Troodon is a swarm animal, but it's.. well, tiny

[indigo vigil]

Utah currently only does 20% around dmg to a tenonto full pounce

[golden coral]

Dilos might work in smaller groups to hunt stuff, but they also are at a bit more risk, especially before any venom kicks in (or at daytime).

[golden coral]

How much bleed though? Remember it's bleed based attrition. You're not meant to kill with damage but to bleed the prey out.

Though I'm surprised it's that little if they did more to a carno... odd that teno would take less damage

[indigo vigil]

about 75 full after it or more

I think

[golden coral]

I think someone said one full pounce on carno is about 30% health, should be about the same for a teno then, no?

[primal dove]

it´s not mainly about the damage, it´s about the bleed

[indigo vigil]

also they do not have the stam to bleed

its lowest stam in game

[golden coral]

So a full pounce on a teno would do what, 25% bleed or so?

[indigo vigil]

with 2 alt bites on the head and a full pounce on a tenonto I did 25% dmg down, so..

[solemn sequoia]

even with bleed you need to use all of your stam for that without a buck

[golden coral]

How about the bleed? Or do you mean bleed "damage"?

[indigo vigil]

damage damage

not bleed

it cannot be a bleeder

[hollow canyon]

You're not killing via pounce's damage, you kill via bleed if you use the pounce

[indigo vigil]

too low stam

^^^^

bucking 5 ticks ur stam gone

[golden coral]

What do you mean too low stam?

[indigo vigil]

its lowest in game stam

[golden coral]

So pounce over and over, in pairs/trios?

[hollow canyon]

You disengage if the target starts bucking

[solemn sequoia]

bucking

[hollow canyon]

No, Utah doesn't have the lowest stamina

[indigo vigil]

even if it only takes 1 tick of that buck on you, its like 20 minimum less stam

[golden coral]

And yeah, pounce, disengage, bleed, pounce, disengage, take it over time. If the teno tries to run, it cant fight back. If it fights, you bait and let it wear itself out.

[oak wind]

Reason why it doesn't take it down alone but in packs.

[solemn sequoia]

packs can't do shit

[indigo vigil]

I mean this as a pack

[golden coral]

At least if I understood correctly, teno stamina is no longer good enough to allow it to both fight and run

[hollow canyon]

You do that and circle the Utahs that do the pouncing. Utah regenerates its full stam in 130 seconds while standing from 0 to 100%

[oak wind]

As a pack of 6 Utahs?

[primal dove]

some ppl pounce it and while ur enemy is distracted other utahs go for some bites

[indigo vigil]

deino finally cannot spon forever

[indigo vigil]

ya

[indigo vigil]

Me and my buddies do that

but its only available for a split second

[primal dove]

yea the biting utah is just kinda pouring salt over the wound if that makes any sense

[oak wind]

I don't believe so except if it bucks. But anyway it isn't meant to hunt such sized preys as they can't be a lot on Tenonto.

[indigo vigil]

unless u wanna loose all ur buddies

[oak wind]

Animal that could hunt in packs and use bite and run technic are Allo and Alberto imo.

[indigo vigil]

utah was known to hunt bigger prey than it the fuck you mean

[oak wind]

Using different mechanics. One fracture and the another one bleed.

[indigo vigil]

so what ur saying is

a utah

[golden coral]

You really need 6 utahs to hunt a solo teno?