#balance-feedback-discussion

1 messages · Page 265 of 1

true sonnet
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That is exactly my point

golden coral
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Let's make that clear, he does not think utahs should ever hunt a rex with any degree of success

hollow canyon
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I don't think Utah packs should be that big of a threat to apex animals.

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As it is however - a Utah pack would absolutely obliterate a T.rex in the current Evrima

tacit oriole
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Utah gameplay is all about inflict bleed and harass until they bleed out

true sonnet
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The problem is dmg calculation is diffrent in envrima

golden coral
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The biggest things a utah pack should hunt should be mid, maybe the upper end of mid, but not large animals, especially not the dangerous large animals

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Maybe a para, because it's not a very weaponized critter

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But utahs should not be hunting an acro

tacit oriole
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Rex's will have enough Stam and enough blood that trying to bleed them out would take a stupid amount of time for utahs

golden coral
hollow canyon
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There simply aren't enough mechanics that would make T.rex or any other apex-level theropod viable against the likes of Utahs that could just pounce it scot-free and bleed it out.

true sonnet
tacit oriole
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You give Rex's a big enough stat pool that sure, it's possible eventually, but it would take so long that it's just not viable

golden coral
true sonnet
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I think there gonne add armor or something to help the big dino’s

hollow canyon
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I don't think the sheer stats could save Rex from a Utah pack in the game as it is - there simply aren't mechanics that would make the apexes viable.

golden coral
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Even so Agouti, you still have that issue of 1v4 and 3v5 or however you put it?

tacit oriole
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And you stop utahs speed Stam regenning so they can't just endlessly cycle their pounces

golden coral
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How do you make 1 rex vs utahs very difficult without making two rexes impossible to take?

true sonnet
tacit oriole
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All I'm saying is tenos and stegos will always group up - it would be ridiculous to try and stop them - so they need to be balanced around how most players are going to use them

hollow canyon
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Deinosuchus does fine vs Utah packs because it has its broken alt bite that allows it to turn around on a dime to counter any attack. I do not however see a Rex turning like that. Stego has a large AoE attack and it still doesn't handle Utahs well at all.

golden coral
hollow canyon
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I don't group up as a Tenonto nor do I do that as a Stego

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I've always played them on my own

golden coral
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You do realize you can hunt carnivores too?

tacit oriole
golden coral
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So just apply your logic there instead, if stego isn't a good example for you

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And stego should not group up, any more than trike or rex or giga should, more than pairs at least

hollow canyon
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Fair enough but Carnos also group up and so do Utahs and Deinos

tacit oriole
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Yup

hollow canyon
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I play all those animals alone most of the time but as you said - I'm in the minority

golden coral
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Tenonto herds can be fought by utah packs, and smaller tenonto groups can be hunted by larger utah packs, after all, even one tenonto is good eating for 3-4 utahs I think

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So you'll have to keep in mind the result you get from the hunt

true sonnet
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Holy shit my english is bad

tacit oriole
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Nah we understand

golden coral
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@tacit orioleAnyway, even if stegos group up, you'll have the same issue with carnivores. One rex might be huntable, two of them won't?

true sonnet
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😋

tacit oriole
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Apex herbivore groups should run into the same issues as apex carnivore groups - food stress will eventually force them to disperse

golden coral
# true sonnet Your talking about opportunity but that needs to be possible with safe jump it r...

I don't think it's the proper way to make utahs die on getting off a pounce if they have stamina, they need to be rewarded for landing it. It does not mean they can inflict enough to do something even if they landed it, or that the target can't just recover. You could give stego immense bleed resist/recovery and health/health regen, and a small pack of utahs could attack over and over and still have to give up, if only because they'll run out of food/water before the stego does.

golden coral
true sonnet
tacit oriole
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Atm with grazing you could get all the herbivore in the server in mid and they'd never starve

true sonnet
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But that shifts it totaly so utsh cant do shit anymore

golden coral
true sonnet
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The probleem is safe. If something is a safe thing to do then it also means the other cant do shit about it

tacit oriole
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This is the issue with balancing a sandbox MMO game - you can't leave opportunities for builds or compositions which are too broken

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An example is tenos are supposed to be deino food, but add a stego to tailguard the drinking spots and you always have safety, even without shallows

golden coral
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Anyway, I don't see a problem in saying a utah pack should not even attempt to hunt a duo of large animals. Find the solo ones, or smaller prey items where your numbers can both do attacks and distractions. And so on.

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Honestly, if a stego does that, and the deino knows what it's doing, the stego might very well die :p

true sonnet
golden coral
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Proper ambush + the lunge damage and quick alt bites might overpower even the quick jab, assuming the stego gets only those in correctly

tacit oriole
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Well, I do agree with that, utahs should be primarily hunting things a size bigger to a size smaller

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Utah packs go for larger stuff and wear it down with bleed, solo utahs go for smaller prey and use pounce +pin

true sonnet
tacit oriole
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Not beyond balancing Stam, bleed, and potential prey health pools

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If HP and bloodpools scales up enough with size big prey would just take way too long to kill

true sonnet
tacit oriole
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Or you give relatively low damage AOE attacks (like stego tail sweep) which won't be useful against big stuff but will keep small stuff at bay

tacit oriole
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Oh actually

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Remember big dinos can knock Utah off with trees

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Let that stun them and get them killed

true sonnet
tacit oriole
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Apex carnivores are quicker than Utah, so they can control where the fight happens... Herbi herds should be able to act like trees to knock them off, and solo herbis will want to be in cover anyway

true sonnet
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Maybe you can only pounce a big dino for 3 times on one side till a timer or it heals and in game it would be you cant cling to flesh thats gone

tacit oriole
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Solo herbi in the middle of an open plains is a dead Dino walking anyway

true sonnet
true sonnet
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Only gets better from here

tacit oriole
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Someone might chime in and correct me but I believe the big apex carnivores are meant to be faster and slower turning like carnos

true sonnet
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Did not know that

tacit oriole
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Having a bleed damage cap per side might work, but I think you'd need like a minor fracture when you hit that cap

true sonnet
tacit oriole
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It's a also one of those unintuitive hidden mechanics that I'm not a fan of

hollow canyon
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I don't think so. The devs have been very much opposed to the idea of having large animals turn slowly from what I remember. We don't know the speed of Giga but Rex is supposedly going to keep its old speed of 33.2km/h. Spino's running speed was allegedly 32km/h according to Bryan from what I've heard, so neither of them is exactly a speed demon.

true sonnet
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Well that solves that

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So limiting pounces is prob the way to go with a safe jump

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Or the effect of the pounce

true sonnet
hollow canyon
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Bryan is one of the animators on the dev team of The Isle. He's the one that animated Spinosaurus to my knowledge so I would take his word for it if he says that this is how fast it moves.

true sonnet
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Ok ty

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Do you think a safe jump for pounce will happen?

tacit oriole
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I personally hope so, but as you pointed out some rebalance would also need to occur

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The Utah plague on NA1 after the reset took a long time to clear lol

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Young apexes feel a bit too vulnerable to utahs imo

true sonnet
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Yea i am interested in what they are gonne do

tacit oriole
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If regular wipes are going to be a thing Utah grow time would need to be made longer I think

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At least sub -> adult time

true sonnet
tacit oriole
vagrant inlet
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@bork#8916 you seem like the kind of player to play trike and let a T rex just eat your ass because you were too distracted complaining about complete non-issues on discord, instead of y’know using your defensive weapons.

Now replace Trike with Stego and T rex with Deino

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Do you also run up to a Cerato as a Galli and let it kill you and the complain that balance is broken?

stark knoll
lament cloak
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and if you just say that you can turn your tail around to it so it can't bite your head, the hitbox for deino is quite broken and it can bite your head through your ass

alpine plover
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Bork made that suggestion awhile ago too lol. Bit late to the party

hollow canyon
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Idk what Ato's point is. Deino just dumpsters Stego if it can ambush it and it's a fact that Stego can't really run away once Deino engages it - that's all that Bork was trying to show there I think?

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As for the last two balance feedbacks - no, the strongest animal in the game doesn't need to be any better. Carno and Utah aren't comfortable at all throwing themselves into the water because the moment there's a larger Deino there they just die. Deino also doesn't need to able to drown a Stego, no matter whether it's swimming, sitting, standing or flying for that matter. If a Stego gets into the water it just dies if there's a competent Deino in its vicinity.

wintry anchor
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I wasn't exactly saying that this should be a way for deinos to kill stegos I was thinking more for other larger carnis that will be added to the game. such as a cera or an allo (I know they aren't confirmed for Evrima but i'm just using it as an example). but I see what you mean

hollow canyon
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Allosaurus would go down to a Deinosuchus the very same way a Carno does - it's in the weight range of Deino's prey where it can just end up getting oneshot by Deinosuchus. Cerato is even smaller than Carno(even while being very charitable with its estimates) so it would go down the very same way as Carno does. The smallest animal that Deinosuchus wouldn't be oneshotting assuming the devs keep on sticking to irl weights for the animals is... like a Theri?

wintry anchor
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oh i guess i didn't understand how much weight i deino could catch, i retract my statement then

tacit oriole
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Thanks @broken orbit I'm so slow at doing that

broken orbit
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y e s

tacit oriole
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So @wintry anchor do you think that deinos could latch on at any time, or that it should only be available when lunging? Does their prey have a means of escape, and if so presumably it comes down to who has the most stamina? I assume that they will be stacking bleed and fracture damage while latched on.

Making them latch on with alt bite instead of just another spammable attack could be a way to balance them.

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I do like the idea of some baby croc latching on to an adult like some sort of toothless chihuahua

broken orbit
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im thinking fish eggs would only feed smaller deinos

tacit oriole
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We already have the fish schools for that, and they barely give any nutrition

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I feel like fish eggs would give so little as to be meaningless

wild cove
# hollow canyon As for the last two balance feedbacks - no, the strongest animal in the game doe...

"Carno and Utah aren't comfortable at all throwing themselves into the water because the moment there's a larger Deino there they just die."

Except when there's not a full adult Deino, which was my point.

Yeah no Utah or Carno is going to jump into the water if they don't know or if they know there's a full adult there, but if there's any way they know for sure there's no full adult Deino in the water, they'll quite readily just throw themselves in and spam-bite every other Deino in the water, even sub-adult deinos.

I've only had it happen once when I was playing Deino in a part of river almost no one else hangs out at, but I've seen it plenty of times at center and at the pond where everyone hangs out.

All fear is out the window as long as a full grown Deino isn't around and Carnos and Utahs have no problem jumping in and spam biting growing Deinos to death. Its becoming more and more common when I play to see 3-4 carnos just hurl themselves into the Pond and spam bite everything.

Hell, I actually saw a lone Dryo of all things murder everything at the pond the other night. Literally less than 24 hours ago. Killed a whole pack of half-grown utahs, several deinos, and some fresh spawn carnos, by itself. It had 0 problems jumping right into the river to kill baby and juvie deinos that weren't even trying to attack anyone.

alpine plover
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I have a question.. rather than discuss about a suggestion made

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Utah doesn't do any bleed damage, right? because of his weight

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like, I'm 72% growth and Utah only weights almost 200 KG

stark knoll
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it deals bleed damage

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weight doesnt affect damage in evrima

sinful cove
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Utah's whole thing is basically bleed damage lol

alpine plover
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it’s pounce can shred tenontos in minutes as long as you don’t get bucked off

alpine plover
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it doesn't affect damage but it affect how much bleed is applied into a target

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and I mean, it does bleed damage.. but not as much due to it's low weight

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also.. how do you get up from when somebody stuns you?

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I got stunned by a Teno, and I was still alive.. but I tried to press movement buttons and I still couldn't get up from the floor

sinful cove
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Like you glitched out and permanently stayed in a stunlock?

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There isnt a key to cancel out a stun, it's why it's a stun

tacit oriole
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@alpine plover if lunary says weight doesn't affect damage - bleed or otherwise - you can take that as gospel

alpine plover
sinful cove
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Pretty sure the only thing weight affects is grapple/grab mechanics in combat

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What's a ling time though, teno stun is a few seconds right? Maybe 5 max

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If it lasted longer its pribably a bug

tacit oriole
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3s I'm pretty sure

alpine plover
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that lasted for wayyyyy longer than 5 seconds..

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like, easily +10

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because I stood in the floor for a very long time

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enough time for a Steno to tail-slam me twice and stay quiet for like a few seconds after because it ran out of stam

tacit oriole
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how... how are you still alive

alpine plover
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I wasn't that hurt

tacit oriole
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oh *teno, not *stego

alpine plover
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yeah.. Stego will one shot me anywhere except for the tail

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which still deals an absurd amount of damage

tacit oriole
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yeah was going t say

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1300 to be exact

sinful cove
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Must have been the isle's worst teno, stuns you for 10 seconds and doesn’t finish you off?

tacit oriole
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karate teno only fights until KO

alpine plover
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I think he ran out of stamina or thought I was dead because literally I just stood on the floor in a death-like position for a long time

sinful cove
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Shame on that teno, he failed in his duties, we shall be exiled

hollow canyon
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I mean - of course there will be instances where Carnos/Utahs will realise that there are no adult Deinos around and they will get into the water to kill the small ones but in that case... just swim away? It's not unrealistic at all for the terrestrial predators to get into the water at times when they know they can get away with this. And again - of course you're mentioning "the pond". It's the one spot that people always mention when speaking about Deinos getting bullied and it's probably the silliest place to try to grow a Deino in(hell I've killed a young Deino there as a Carno not long ago myself(just charged it from the treeline when I've noticed the little guy went onto the shore to rest). This is one of the spots where you can for the most part realise whether there's an adult Deino in the area easily rather due to the fact that they have to surface to get from one spot to the other. This coupled with the fact that the Deinos have to get on land to get from one point to the other in that area makes it an amazing deathtrap where you can kill crocs.

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I don't know whether I will ever understand what it is about this places that makes people think it's a good spot to grow Deinos in but I will say it again - it's not. If you're growing there you're literally leaving your survival entirely in the hand's of fate.

Note: I'm still responding to The Cawckiest King - sorry for cutting into your conversation like that.

wintry anchor
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maybe if you are not an adult multiple little deinos could latch on to slow the dino down more

tacit oriole
wild cove
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My one and only point was "Deino are too comfortable on land" isn't mutually exclusive to Deino fighting terrestrial dinos on land.

Other dinos will just as happily jump into the water to kill Deinos with no fear as long as its not a full adult Deino.

Its not just pond either. Its center river, north river, etc. I've literally been watching utahs and carnos slaughter ungrown Deinos all across the map for hours today, on all parts of the map. In fact I'm watching it go down right now lol

tacit oriole
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And yeah, I think people get used to places like pond which are usually defended by adult dienos and are perfectly safe as a result... And then when the adults aren't around, suddenly it's a shock that they might be vulnerable

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I don't think you will find much support for anything that significantly buffs deinos

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Especially when you can just dive out of the way

wild cove
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I wasn't saying buff deino, I just saw a lot of people complaining about it being too comfortable on land like it doesn't go both ways 😛

hollow canyon
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Let me clarify - yes the terrestrial animals do get into the water to hunt Deinos too, however this isn't equivalent to Deinos getting on land. The terrestrial animals are nowhere near as competent in the water and this doesn't happen anywhere near as often. Besides all that Deinosuchus has very little to fear on land whilst the land animals do have things that they have to fear in the water. Is it possible to die to a Carno/Utah while you're in the water as a small Deino? Yea, sure but it's not exactly all that difficult to avoid them. I'd say it's a bit of a false equivalency.

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I don't think Deino is too comfortable on land tbh.

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I think it's not forced to go on land enough

wild cove
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Again, I just saw a lot of complaints about it. I don't even disagree with you on that lol

hollow canyon
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The main issue with the animal is that it does a bit too well at everything whilst being very easy to grow. It grows like a legacy apex and peforms in a similar manner compared to other carnivores which are actually somewhat more reliant on actually putting effort into their growth. It's also completely free to just always disengage and get back into the water if things go wrong for it. Those are my main issues with it.

novel tulip
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If terrestrial animals are jumping in to bite you just swim away

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You have complete and total stealth in the water, if they know exactly where you are thats your fault

wintry anchor
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I really like the idea of always having a compass, it will really help since we're gonna be running around so much more eating the right diet and whatnot.
besides, it's not like animals don't have internal compasses IRL.

about herbis walking and smelling though I think they should have a combination of your two suggestions, only being able to smell certain things, but also having a smaller range

wild cove
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Again that depends.

If a raptor or carno bites a small Deino and its bleeding in the water, they can use that to find you, extremely easily I might add. So the "you have complete and total stealth in the water" isn't entirely true.

From the sound of it anyway, it sounds like you're going off of the "what should be". I'm going off of what I've been watching actually happen for the last week, most of the time from the sidelines.

golden coral
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I guess the problem with your argument is that it comes down do, do these deinos play it smart or not. Because of course "what should be" is how you're supposed to do it.

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I make mistakes when I play as utah or carno, but I can look at that and go "well that was stupid of me".

wild cove
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I mean that also holds true for most other dinos engaging with an adult Deino on land who just decided they're bored of the water. Utah and Carno can outspeed any Deino.

Again, my point was against the people saying Deino is too comfortable on land. It goes both ways. Adult utahs and carnos readily leap into the water to kill small deino all the time with little risk as long as an adult isn't around, acting like they're piranhas or something, just as adult Deino can come onto land to brawl with not much risk.

On both sides, its mostly a L2P issue, with exception to the stego-deino problem that someone put up a video about. That one's a legitimate criticism but the rest just sounds like people crying about unfairness when the issue of "too comfortable outside their intended area" isn't one-sided.

golden coral
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True, carno and utah can avoid an adult deino with no problem. But it's more that deino is supposed to be waterlocked, and it's not really. It's too comfortable on land, for something that is invunerable in water. Sure, a utah or carno can risk it and jump into water, but I'd say they are still more vunerable down there than the deino on land. Even a subadult, can grab and drown utahs I'm pretty sure.

hollow canyon
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You're creating a sense of false equivalency between the two. "As long as an adult isn't around" is a big gamechanger. The terrestrial animals do not know what's under the surface, meanwhile Deino can see what's on land just as well as they can. Deinosuchus is way too good in the game currently and comparing it to Carno or Utah is simply laughable. Deino doesn't go after juvies on land, it goes after every creature there and the only one that is capable of killing it is Stegosaurus(and it's not exactly a free win for the Stego either).

wild cove
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Full adult Deinos go after everything on land. Smaller Deinos don't.

Carnos and utahs kill younger deinos quite easily if the player actually knows how to play. Just take turns playing pounce-and-run if a smaller Deino is on land. Or just run-and-bite if its a really small deino.

Its really not false equivalence. If baby deino was able to start murdering packs of capable adult utahs on land, then it would be false equivalents.

Its just plain silly to expect that a utah or carno can easily go toe-to-toe with a full adult Deino, which on our current roster is basically the top apex.

Also Deino isn't strictly an aquatic creature. Its built for both land and water, its just that its built better for water. There's a pretty good reason crocs haven't changed much in millions of years. They're one of the biggest evolutionary successes there is, next to creatures like sharks.

golden coral
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Adult deinos go after everything on land, adult carnos and utahs do not go after too big deinos unless they want to die. There's a difference there you need to take into account.

hollow canyon
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It is a false equivalency because whatever Utahs and Carnos can do in the water is nowhere comparable to what Deinos can do on land. They also risk far more by going into the water than Deino does by going on land. Younger Deinos should not be dying to Carnos or Utahs at all, if they're doing that it's entirely on them.

As for Deino's apex status it's outright laughable. The animal is absurdly easy to grow(easier than Carno). Deino fears nothing aside from other Deinos. Both while growing and when fully grown. And it's not even about a Utah or Carno going toe-to-toe with a Deino 1v1. Deino can handle 2 or even 3 Carnos at once with ease(all thiswhile being easier to grow than them)

golden coral
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And in this game the gator is pretty much as close to full aquatic as we come, far more so than spino or other water-living critters at least.

hollow canyon
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There's just no comparing a Utah or Carno jumping into the pond, which is one of the dumbest places to try to grow Deinos in, and killing some juvie Deinos to the fully grown Deinosuchus just walking on land to usurp any kill it wants and kill anything that doesn't get away because it knows it's literally untouchable to the rest of the roster with the exception of Stego(which can still be killed, you just need to either catch it while drinking or ambush it from the bushes).

wild cove
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And 2-3 utahs can kill a juvie / sub-adult Deino, in water, where Deino should have the advantage. I've seen it happen multiple times just in the last week.

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It is not actually that hard for utah to kill anything smaller than an adult deino

golden coral
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A juvie, yes most likely. A sub I'm not so sure of. You should be able to grab one of them, and just.. deposit it on the bottom. It'll have to focus on getting out at that point, if you allow it.

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Where do you see this happen? I'd like to see those river locations

hollow canyon
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How do you even die to 2-3 Utahs as a subadult Deino? It's just incomprehensible to me.

golden coral
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Do these deinos know how to spam alt bites? Do they know they can grab in the water too? (at least they should be able to, we got that ability right?)

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I have no doubt a juvie deino is very vunerable, but at subadult you should be starting to get some weight and all that.

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And utahs especially are not that heavy.

hollow canyon
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It is very vulnerable, yea - to other Deinos that is. I honestly can't even think of a single time when I'd die as a growing(or really any) Deino to anything but other Deinos. Nothing is forcing you to interact with those Utahs, you don't have to fight them if you don't want to. Deino doesn't have to see another player throughout its entire lifecycle.

wild cove
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I've seen it happen at pond, at swamp river, and personally I've had that fight on the north river (the one that's not really connected directly to any other rivers) with my own deino that was at 60%-65%. And yes, I do know alt-bite and diving (not face-tanking) and all that. You just need 2-3 utahs swimming a circle spamming bite, popping in and out of the water as needed.

And on both sides of playing Deino and playing other things like Hypsi, Utah, etc, 90% of people dying to adult Deino are playing the game completely stupid, like face-tanking an adult Deino as a fresh spawn.

Its stupid easy to avoid adult Deino most of the time and just not play by Deinos rules. Its not that hard most of the time to figure out if there's an adult Deino in the water either if you're smart about it. Most people would just rather face-tank Deino even when you have a whole group of people saying "stop trying to fight the deino, you're just giving it free food".

That's just a L2P issue at that point, among other things.

golden coral
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Well, pond as stated earlier is for obvious reasons not a good example. I'm not sure on swamp/north river, they might have some shallow areas that could be dangerous. But beyond that. If they are circling up there, just dive, and leave.

hollow canyon
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Yes, it is definitely a l2p issue. The issue is that when someone knows how to play Deino it's the best animal in the game - by far.

golden coral
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You have a good deal of air, you can most likely sit on the bottom and recover from the bleed unless you took too much for some reason. There should be some ways out I think at least.

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Do you perhaps remember what your stats might have been at if you were 60% grown?

wild cove
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If you mean hunger, thirst, and health, I was pretty much full on all three (no other deino competition meant lots of fish and no fights)

golden coral
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Was thinking of weight and biteforce mostly

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But with full food and water, you should have been decent on bleed handling at that

wild cove
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I wasn't looking that closely at weight and bite force but as far as I'm aware, its universal across all deino right?

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For that growth range

golden coral
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Should be yes

wild cove
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In either case, my point still stands that anyone playing adult utah and Carno who actually knows how to play and coordinate can wreck Deino if its not a full adult, and there are lots of ways to figure out if an adult Deino is in the water.

Theoretically "no carno or utah will jump into the water because they don't know" but there are ways to figure it out. And yeah, no smart utah or carno is going to leap headlong into the water if they don't know. But again, there are ways to figure it out.

golden coral
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And how would you figure it out when you can't see? Unless you just wait for 5 min and hope they surface?

wild cove
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It is absolutely stupid easy to bait a lunge

golden coral
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Cause otherwise there's no way to know, unless they are being visible

wild cove
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Obviously it won't work 100% of the time on a smart Deino but I hate to say, a lot of Deino aren't that smart on hiding

golden coral
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Which would be on the deino for falling for a bait and not lunge when it's a guaranteed hit I'd guess, you're also assuming they would do that, and not just ignore you until you go into the water.

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But if you were at 60%, I'm pretty sure you could have fought one or two of those utahs in the water?

wild cove
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I mean I can personally say, I have never, not once, been ambushed by an adult Deino as a utah or carno, at the edge or in the water. But I actually play smart around the water. I HAVE however lost a lot of pack members as adult or carno because they didn't check first.

Again, 90% of people dying to Deino tend to be making dumb choices, in my experience.

#

In either case, yeah I did fight them, using the depths and alt-bite and all that. Part of the problem is also, while Deino has bleed resist, its not bleed-immune, so the utahs can disengage and roll in mud when they want, but Deino just has to wait it out

hollow canyon
#

The issue with that whole point is that no Deino that knows how to play Deino will be dying to Utahs or Carnos while growing. How do you even get into a fight with them? Do you let them bite you on land? Do you try to fight them on land and then start running into the water when you start losing? I'm not gonna lie I've killed some young Deinos as Carno and Tenonto in the water but they were bad - like all of them were really bad at the game. I've also fought Utahs and Carnos before reaching full adult and I haven't died to them.

wild cove
#

Like I said before, if there's no adult Deino in the water, they literally just swim a circle around/over a deino and spam-bite til they kill it. They only have to bite a deino once or twice to make it bleed and then it can't hide.

vagrant mural
#

I’ve seen utahs and carnos jump weak deinos at like south before, but in any other part of the mao you can just swim away

hollow canyon
#

^
And... they run out of stamina while you can just rest on the bottom of the river where they can't reach you?

wild cove
#

Just have 2-3 adult utahs take turns getting stam and jumping back in, or they just wait until deino needs air and re-surfaces. Again, easy to know where when they can see the blood in the water.

hollow canyon
#

But you can heal up the bleed on the bottom of the river and just swim away? Like I'm genuinely failing to see how you can die there unless you make a series of absolutely atrocious decisions.

wild cove
#

Honestly Deino's main problem when it comes to balance is how it can stick its face through rocks n shit, or bite another dino's head through its backside. The actual gameplay part isn't the main problem, its the janky hitbox and related bite location ability

hollow canyon
#

Deino has a plethora of balance problems that cause it to be the most broken animal in the game. The one you're referring to mainly applies to the Stego match up.

wild cove
#

Well, its not just the stego match-up. Its also the hitbox of the Deino itself that makes it difficult to land a hit on when its actually out of the water. Most of its hitbox seems to be located near its head/neck as well, which obviously puts you right where you don't want to be.

#

If you want to actually do damage to it

hollow canyon
#

You can bite the tail and deal damage to it as well, you just deal much less damage, but that's how locational damage works. Deino's whole model has hitboxes.

wild cove
#

They must have fixed it then because I know when Deino was fairly new, you basically couldn't hit Deino without being right on its scruff

hollow canyon
#

What you're referring to is the collision box I think - this one is indeed located near its head, meaning that you can walk into Deinosuchus as another animal as it won't be colliding with you.

#

But hitboxes are a different thing and those work normally.

wild cove
#

Fair enough

#

There is still an issue with adult Deino biting through rocks or ledges and such though. It takes a few tries usually but they can still do it

#

Have people IRL bugging me tho so gonna dip out for the moment ✌️

tacit oriole
#

Hypsi really are pretty useless... And their 1 call is obnoxious. The only use I've seen for them so far was last night when the usual mixpack killsquad was using them to blind when initiating combat.

#

They can't even fight half grown ptera on the ground

tacit oriole
#

Also when that mixpack was trying to take croc pond they couldn't seem to get a blind on my deino, even when I was just sitting there

fading pagoda
#

@tacit oriole dinosaurs and pterosaurs were warm blooded like birds. But things like crocs arent

#

i do like the idea of temperatures effecting stats but they should be weather based instead of basking/afk based

tacit oriole
#

I'm about to make a post in #balance-feedback based on @umbral inlet's idea... when they first posted it I thought it was an awful one but the more I thought about it the more I realised it was actually really smart

#

we could end up with a perk that lets you be warm blooded and remove all the temperature effects, but make you need to eat more

fading pagoda
#

being warm blooded doesnt remove all temperature effects

vagrant mural
#

If temperature is implemented it should simply be a survival stat, like thirst or water imo, I don’t want to be growing slower just because I got a tiny bit too cold

fading pagoda
#

also all dinos and pterasaurs are warm blooded

tacit oriole
#

Well, I think as a 1ton+ warmblooded creature on a tropical island your core temp would probably be pretty stable

tacit oriole
fading pagoda
tacit oriole
#

ah fudge

fading pagoda
#

lol

#

yeah they were warm blooded like birds

vagrant mural
#

Yeah because flying while cold blooded is pretty inefficient

fading pagoda
#

yeah

#

and somth about the bone structure or somth told the scientists they were warmblooded

tacit oriole
#

oh

lament cloak
#

@tacit oriole wdym "let some dinos be warm blooded instead of cold blooded" you know that dinos are warm blooded animals right?

fading pagoda
tacit oriole
lament cloak
#

oh shit your right here, sorry for the ping

fading pagoda
#

lol

#

nah all gud agouti

vagrant mural
#

well I mean most are thought to be mesotherms iirc, but semantics

tacit oriole
#

crazy that they could tell from fossils

#

googles mesotherms

fading pagoda
#

just make some adjustments. You have something in those ideas its just not fully realized yet

tacit oriole
#

"A mesotherm (from Greek μέσος mesos "intermediate" and thermē "heat") is a type of animal with a thermoregulatory strategy intermediate to cold-blooded ectotherms and warm-blooded endotherms."

#

I googled "were dinosaurs cold-blooded" and the results seem... mixed

vagrant mural
#

I believe temperature is actually planned, but I have no idea how they plan to implement it

fading pagoda
#

i mean

#

its in a bunch o documentaries

#

so

vagrant mural
#

It’s still a debated topic but the general consensus seems to be they were most likely active endotherms

fading pagoda
#

also the egg shells of dinosaurs helped figure out that they were warm blooded

tacit oriole
#

From a reasonably reputable source "Scientists have conflicting opinions on this subject. Some paleontologists think that all dinosaurs were 'warm-blooded' in the same sense that modern birds and mammals are: that is, they had rapid metabolic rates. Other scientists think it unlikely that any dinosaur could have had a rapid metabolic rate. Some scientists think that very big dinosaurs could have had warm bodies because of their large body size, just as some sea turtles do today. It may be that some dinosaurs were warm-blooded. The problem is that it is hard to find evidence that unquestionably shows what dinosaur metabolisms were like."

#

So what I'm getting is that it isn't settled enough to be required for realism, but it could be a mechanic to add gameplay value

fading pagoda
#

the majority of the scientific community believes that they are warm blooded. And the dinosaurs in the isle dont exactly act like cold blooded creatures. I think its safe to assume that at least in the isle they are warm blooded

#

and most likely irl they were warm blooded as well but i digress

tacit oriole
#

In my mind any reasonably active dino - doing what dinos are meant to - shouldn't ever really get cold on a tropical island

vagrant mural
#

Idk man having to play my active flying reptile while basking in the sun for a while just to gain heat to perform efficiently tbh

tacit oriole
#

but afk in a bush in the shade or at night...

#

ptera need to stop to rest up on a rock periodically anyway, let'em bask a bit while they are there

fading pagoda
#

dont worry about that

vagrant mural
#

I think diets and the possible body odor mechanic is enough to dissuade afk growth

fading pagoda
tacit oriole
#

gotcha

#

I don't really have a good idea of how punishing diets and odour will be for inactivity, so the whole body temp thing is probably moot...

#

Oh right, it was actually posted... I didn't mean to do it when I did (on my phone), no wonder it kicked off a discussion

tacit oriole
#

oh btw @fading pagoda were you a hypsi at mid on NA1 yesterday and got hunted by a ptera?

fading pagoda
#

Yes lmao

tacit oriole
#

that was probably me >_>

fading pagoda
#

Hahaha

tacit oriole
#

I wanted to see how long I could survive without fish

fading pagoda
#

I was trying to make friends lololol

tacit oriole
#

aww sorry

fading pagoda
#

Nah I get it

tacit oriole
#

but yeah I expected the fight to be way closer

#

you just went smush

fading pagoda
#

How did you know it was me?

#

Oh wait

tacit oriole
fading pagoda
#

We might be talking about somth else

#

I didnt die to a ptera but I did get attacked by one

tacit oriole
#

oh, a couple got away from me as well, might still be the same

fading pagoda
#

Ahh

#

Where did these fights take place?

tacit oriole
#

mid near crossing

fading pagoda
#

Like near shallows?

tacit oriole
#

na down south from shallows, nearer to croc cave

fading pagoda
#

Ah ok. I got attacked at south pond so it prob wasn't me

#

That's an interesting challenge tho going without fish

tacit oriole
#

I sorta wanted to get a feel for how a quetz would hunt too, targeting small game

#

it's really hard to avoid hitting the ground going for hypsi

#

way easier to hunt carno

fading pagoda
#

Yeeah

dim radish
#

I mean.. I don't think temperature needs to be added to the game since there already are enough factors you need to be aware of and afk sitting will most likely be taken care of anyways
But
I am a big fan of the ability to sense body heat. I think giving that a certain nocturnal carnivore that doesn't have that great of a niche already, is something to think about.
You could easily add some holes at the front of the creatures snout in its model to make it resemble the organ many snakes have to detect body heat

tacit oriole
#

Well, I'm not going to feel offended if people give it the old ❌, I knew it was goofy, but better to have it out there

slim dragon
#

@alpine plover Put a stamina drain on deino's alt bite

sinful cove
#

Give deino a 5-7% base stam drain on its alt bite, but when it is spammed, the stam cost doubles for each couple uses. Much better

#

CDs are pretty lame

alpine plover
tacit oriole
#

I kind of liked someone's idea to make alt-bite into a grab and hold type move, so it sort of becomes a damage over time (but you can still spam it a bit if you are missing)

#

Stam cost for alt bite is by far the simplest and easiest though, then you just fight land crocs like stegos

#

They still need map changes to reduce the reliance on suicide land battles for food, though

tacit oriole
#

@grand carbon That ptera issue is actually a bug, not a feature - usually after ground combat you will be bugged and can't fly, I've heard it's an animation issue. Sometimes swimming fixes it, sometimes wallowing, usually I just run to a bush and safe log

#

Definitely not bleeding (I used to think that too) as after safe log you can take off before the bleeding stops

grand carbon
#

Doesnt seem like a bug, but even if it is I would like what I say to still have some effect

#

Pteranodons shouldnt be able to fly easily if bleeding imo

tacit oriole
hollow canyon
#

@tall bronze Only some of the alt bites deal more damage than the normal attacks. It's specifically Pteranodon and Utah that deal more damage and have a stamina cost on their alt bites. Carno and Deino deal normal damage and have no stamina cost. I agree with your propositio that all the "alt bites" should deal increased damage and have a stamina cost though.

tall bronze
#

Oooh alright TI_ParaBaby

hollow canyon
#

As for the last suggestion that Deinos should get any buff to allow them to handle Carnos better - that's a big no. a single adult Deino should be effortlessly handling a Carno pair in the current game. Anyone that's dying to a Carno pair as a fully grown Deinosuchus is doing something wrong. While it's possible to die to a large Carno pack as a Deino, a pair should get absolutely murdered by a fully grown Deinosuchus unless the Deino is a bad player.

#

Deino is currently way too good and needs no buffs of any kinds. It will likely(and rightfully so) receive a nerf.

slim dragon
#

It especially doesn't need a buff to its lunge when it's on land.

#

It is currently the only thing that makes Deino better in water than it is on land.

vagrant mural
#

but I still agree with you

hollow canyon
#

It might be the case, I've tested Ptera ages ago and I just remember it dealing more damage than the normal peck

vagrant mural
#

it deals more damage for sure

hollow canyon
#

not sure if it took more stam but I will take your word for it, anyways the point stands, the alt bites should be put more in line with each other

vagrant mural
#

but I've never seen it take stam before

tacit oriole
#

I don't believe ptera alt-bite uses stam

#

It does animation lock you and halt movement, though

thorn spire
#

Unless you're taking into account the deinos lunge, then I believe a well coordinated carno pair could take one on.

tacit oriole
#

I've both died to a carno pair and killed a carno pair as dieno, so I think it can go either way

#

I'm not a very good dieno, either

hollow canyon
#

I don't think lunge matters at all. I don't see how Deino could lose against a pair of Carnos unless lag worked strongly in their favour or... idk Deino's internet stopped working. Alt bite should absolutely obliterate them. I've taken on trios and quartets of Carnos as a single Deino and I've hardly ever lost half health before killing them/making the still living ones retreat. Alt bite takes out 25% of Carno's health upon a bodyshot. They get threeshot if you land headshots. Meanwhile they need over 10 bites(12 headshots to be precise) to take you out. You also heal significantly faster and handle bleed much better. I genuinely don't see how a pair of Carnos can handle a fully grown Deinosuchus that knows what it's doing.

sinful cove
#

ok but consider this. if the deinos dont know how to use alt bite, are nowhere near deep water, are suffering from 10fps and have middle of the saharan desert internet while their monitor is glitching out, then a pair of skilled carnos can kill them

hollow canyon
#

That is a fair point, I suppose I haven't taken everything into consideration.

sinful cove
#

yess see now you can understand how deino is a very balanced animal

#

totally not busted at all on land

hollow canyon
#

Makes total sense, it should probably get a buff

sinful cove
#

oh absolutely

vagrant mural
#

Flawless logic here gents

hollow canyon
#

Oh - also in one instance where I was fighting against three Carnos those poor dudes didn't even want to go after me so I went on to cannibalise another fully grown Deino right in fron of them. After I'd killed it they decided that this is their chance to get me - 2 of them died and the last one ran away roughly 5 minutes later

tacit oriole
#

Idk if I was somehow getting tailshots instead of body

hollow canyon
tacit oriole
#

But they were both right in my grill

#

Nah I don't think there was any funny business, I think they just had really good positioning and I maybe had some lag

#

It was on croc pond ramp and I was half way up, one dropped behind me

hollow canyon
#

You'd have to be biting the very tip of the tail for it to survive that many bites I believe. I'd have to doublecheck Carno's base of the tail multiplier but I'm pretty sure it's still high enough for it to die to 6 Deino bites landing on that area.

tacit oriole
#

I'd love to see the exact details if you have them

#

That was also my very first dieno so I didn't really know what I was doing

hollow canyon
#

I don't, not at hand that is. I've seen a chart created by people who tested the locational damage of all the animals in detail however I would have to look for it.

#

Well that could explain it, the first time I've played Deino I already had a relatively good idea of how to play it since I've only grown it weeks into the update 3.

#

And I fought multiple Deinos by that time so I knew what worked and what didn't

tacit oriole
#

Ah, gotcha. I'll probably roll another dieno for update 4, but current dieno meta is a bit bland... Part afk croc island, part worried about cannibals, and remainder trying to bait carnos and tenos into land battles for food

golden coral
#

Sounds about right there, fantastic gameplay all around :p

hollow canyon
#

I grow them en masse atm. I think the current one is my fourth in a row or so. I just grow them - mass murder everything and anything until I typically die to another Deino/group of Deinos when I attack them while still having some locked health.

tacit oriole
#

haha, sounds like every stego too

#

Carefully grow for 5 hours then get psychotic from boredom

hollow canyon
#

Stego's meh imo and hardly capable of killing much at all unless it's a part of a mixpack and I don't mixpack(or even pack at all for that matter).

tacit oriole
#

Yeah, that's fair. Also part of the reason I don't play much dieno - I like group play and dienos aren't co-operative by nature, so if you dieno it's mixpack or isolation

#

Tenos at least its always easy to find some of your own kind to cruise with

dusky surge
#

i can assure you

#

stego is not OP and deino is not underpowered

sinful cove
#

This guy in balance feedback has got to be a troll... right?

#

@alpine plover you’re just doing a little trolling huh

dusky surge
#

unless you plan on making deino weak as fuck on land, no

carmine charm
sinful cove
#

Deino beats steg in trading hits due to his broken ass alt bite yeah

dim radish
#

My Deino can't shoot lasers and one shot the spiked lizard SO IT MUST DIE.
Stego must fold like paper under the wrath of the water Rex!

sinful cove
#

Deino bite should be 50000 like google told me and it should bite a stego in half!!!!1!

dim radish
#

And it should shoot out of the water and fly to catch those Pteras!!1
Ptera op, because I can't catch them11!!!eleven

tacit oriole
#

I mean, ptera are a bit OP

#

I say this as a ptera main

sinful cove
#

Ptera and dryo are both a bit overtuned in their PvP abilities for how unreachable they can be with their mobility

#

Ive seen pteras solo kill sub carnos, sure those carnos werent the brightest crayons in the knife shed but still

alpine plover
# sinful cove <@456226577798135808> you’re just doing a little trolling huh

No, 500n bite force for a Deino is comical 😂. The bite force of a salt water croc is 16,460... Nike crocodiles regularly make meals of buffalo without incident... Yet as a Deino you have to run from stegos, because they can just spam their tail at you. Even if you get headshots they can just put manoeuvre you and the whole point of being an ambush predator is invalid in regards to Steph because that one face bite does nothing

#

It’s two bites to kill a Utah for god sake....

alpine plover
worldly venture
#

Yeah tbh as well as a shit ton of nerfs, deino definitely needs a bite force buff

dusky surge
#

Yes, it's a steg, the one contest to a deino. In that scenario, you always can leave.

#

I agree, it is annoying

alpine plover
worldly venture
dusky surge
#

But just because the stego/deino matchup is unfavourable does not mean steg is overpowered or deino is underpowered

alpine plover
dusky surge
#

Steg is simply quite good against deino

#

That's all it is

alpine plover
#

It’s underpowered

dusky surge
#

What???

worldly venture
#

I use nerf subconsciously when talking about deino because it can go fuck itself TI_dondiSmile

dusky surge
#

It absolutely can

alpine plover
#

It takes two bites to kill a Utah

dusky surge
#

You can lunge...

#

That's what deino is designed to do

#

I agree the biteforce is comically low for what a deino should be

#

But deino is not fun to face as it stands

#

It's alt-attack is fucking annoying

#

It can survive far too well in combat on land against anything that isn't a steg or another deino

alpine plover
#

If a stego sticks it’s face in the water and a Deino grabs it, it would rip its head clean off

#

Yet it just turns around and hits you 8 times and you’re toast

worldly venture
#

Well tbf deinos kill stegos all the time by shoving their heads up the stegos ass and alt biting, which hits the head or the high torso due to shitboxes

#

And the stego can only hit the lower torso of the deino unless it moves, and it can't swing while moving

alpine plover
#

A salt water crocs bite is 16,400n. It can screw the head of a buffalo off. The Deino is a salt water croc on steroids and was the river Apex at the time. The current scale of things atm do not reflect that. I’ll leave it at that

worldly venture
#

Well going off that if we made deino realistic it'd be able to 1 or 2 shot everything in the game and no one wants that

alpine plover
#

Realism should never be an argument stance when it comes to game design, only if the mechanics or aesthetic deviates from its realistic aesthetic

#

A lot of mid tiers within the game could not realistically compete against any of the apexes or the apexes sub adult counterparts, as they'd be outcompeted from a lot of their respective niches

alpine plover
#

Balance should always be the forefront of design regardless of the stance of realism

alpine plover
#

If a Deino has the opportunity to ambush a stego, with its tiny unarmored bean head in the water, the head should go, the stego should die.

#

If you want to survive drink with your tail facing the water

#

So your defence and armour are facing the croc

#

That’s where balance comes in

#

Stego was about the same weight and size as a Deino, so the comparison of a Buffalo to a modern day Nile Crocodile is valid and a good thing to look at

sinful cove
#

Holy shit the deino underpowered feedback was completely unironic

worldly venture
#

What if we just deleted Deinosuchus

sinful cove
#

Yes

alpine plover
#

Lol bunch of stego mains having an aneurysm because there’s a Dino that can kind of challenge you...

sinful cove
#

I dont even play stego buddy

#

Not worth the grow

#

But go on

worldly venture
#

I haven't touched stego since just before 3.5 lol

sinful cove
#

Deino is busted as shit on land and that is just a fact

#

Thing brawls like its a terrestrial

alpine plover
#

As it stands currently, even if that'd be the case. Deino is still in a too strong state right now to even justify this change
Stego cannot outrun Deino, cannot attack while running. And loses fairly well if the Deino alt attacks through it's collision to it's head. All the while Deino survives better on land, and has a safe haven with plentiful food to sustain outside competing with fellow carnivores for food if it ever gets in trouble.

alpine plover
worldly venture
#

Solution: don't ambush something you aren't meant to

sinful cove
alpine plover
#

This is the meta rn lol

#

Fix Stego/Deino matchups and adjustments to it's survival placement first before we think about proper changes to Deino

sinful cove
#

Unless youre a total buffoon you cant die 1v1 to a stego especially while swimming

worldly venture
#

Because deino is a semi aquatic with a big emphasis on the aquatic because its a fucking crocodile it isn't supposed to be on land for a long ass time, which is why people going through the shallows and wondering why they died confuses me

alpine plover
#

I’ve done it myself... you can bait the Deino into using it’s lunge and then just run in a line. As long as you maintain some distance the croc will lose stam quicker than the stego

#

This is happening everywhere

#

Even if it did somehow get free, it cannot turn back to fight it as the disparity is too big on hp trades

#

But that’s fine because a croc isn’t supposed to be that good on land

alpine plover
worldly venture
sinful cove
#

Deino is good on land

#

Deino is better on land than stego i daresay

alpine plover
#

It easily is better than Stego on land

worldly venture
sinful cove
#

Fucker spins like a beyblade for 0 stam cost and can retreat into its safe space if it bit off more than it can chew

worldly venture
#

For something that already had the advantage of water for its safety, deino is 20x too strong on land

sinful cove
#

It bites like a drumroll and tanks stego in the tradeoff

alpine plover
#

Even if Deino was outright useless on land and could only move like a slug
It'd still be a powerful playable, it's water camping/ambush and fish supply would still be a good case for it being a top tier

sinful cove
#

Meanwhile a dryo can solo stego or force it to shove its face in a rock and hope for mercy because its attack is super easy to juke and it has nowhere to run

worldly venture
#

As someone who has killed stegos by myself as Utah that is probably true

alpine plover
sinful cove
#

I almost killed a steg with a dryo but it was herded and its bud showed up

worldly venture
#

F

alpine plover
sinful cove
#

So you think its a cool idea for 5+ hour dinos do be lost in 2 hits from something with a safe space that took the same time to grow

worldly venture
#

They're both 5, and one of them is a water ambush predator lmao, it does make sense why stego should get 1 shot by deino

alpine plover
#

If the player used its strengths - The tail and the back armour it would be fine

worldly venture
alpine plover
#

Yeah this argument is a lost cause, I'm out

alpine plover
worldly venture
alpine plover
#

What’s your point? You just invalidated yourself

golden coral
#

@alpine ploverDeino is already way too OP. While you could argue that bite force is low, you have to remember it's a game stat. Not related to real life at all. Second, the deino has a "oneshot" grab mechanic, which is your main method of hunting, so the bite force is fine anyway, since you do not need to, nor should you, use bite for anything but defense if you get caught on land or similar. Also deino wins over stego if it gets the ambush, unless possibly the stego gets all the quick jabs in, and even then the stego will be left with very little health. And that's doable on land, if you get the lunge/stun + the alt bite, you can just lunge past the tail, and bite the head, and it's a done deal.

sinful cove
#

You complained about stegos swinging in water, then say they deserve punishment for facing water with their head. Which one is it pal

#

Literally swim away, if you let a stego thag you to death you honestly deserve it

alpine plover
sinful cove
#

Go to water you can swim in

golden coral
#

And if you want to make the argument that a deino that hits the stego head should just outright kill the stego, sure, but then it should go the other way around. A thagomizer to the face and you're just dead, nothing more to it. Not that oneshots between same size/growth animals are good, longer battles rather than shorter is preferable for more interesting interactions and more skill involved.

sinful cove
#

It you hang out in shallows, you are playing wrong and you deserve to be punished. Your same logic earlier

worldly venture
alpine plover
worldly venture
#

If a stego is bothering you just leave or kill it, like Bruh

golden coral
alpine plover
#

Like a grappling stage

#

Where there’s damage dealt the longer the hold goes on, the croc tries to pull the stego in the water and the stego button mashes to free itself

golden coral
#

Ah. Well yes, a tug-of-war would be more interesting than the current grab, but it's what we have, so we'll have to make do. Though if they did add grappling, I'm pretty sure stego would just pull the deino up on land and that's it.

#

At least I seem to recall Punch mentioning that it would be the stego doing the pulling and not the deino.

sinful cove
#

The stego has land traction on its side yes

worldly venture
#

Yes that's what he said back when we were all dying of boredom from the year long wait

golden coral
#

You're not really meant to hunt bigger stuff as deino, you're designed as a grab and drown ambush hunter, for mid-size and similar.

worldly venture
#

^

alpine plover
golden coral
#

At least for right now, if they do manage more interesting mechanics, that might change. But as of right now it's how it is.

worldly venture
#

And if a stego kills you when you're at the water, I think you need to take a look at what you did wrong more than anything

sinful cove
#

This guy wants deino to essentially oneshot the whole roster in the foreseeable future TI_Wheeze

golden coral
alpine plover
golden coral
alpine plover
worldly venture
alpine plover
#

And the way it should be

golden coral
sinful cove
#

Trike gets destroyed by rex and giga in legacy unless the rex is super unlucky or just bad

worldly venture
worldly venture
sinful cove
#

Deino oneshots everything rn except stego which you said should be a 2 shot

golden coral
#

Anyway, deinos biteforce is fine for what it's designed to do as it stands. Realistic biteforce is not the same as the ingame damage stat, so references to realism is not relevant here. If deino changes in mechanics, it might behave differently, but for now it's already way too OP, and has a stupidly good fighting chance on land, even against stegos unless the stego can get all the quick jabs in, and the deino can manuever around that, as well as do an outright ambush.

#

You'd be surprised how well ambushing from a bush can work at times. Because no one expects the gator to attack from that direction :p

sinful cove
worldly venture
#

If bite force was accurate then one deino could beat 2 or 3 Rexes in the same fight and I'd rather just not

sinful cove
#

Deinos would be oneshotting eachother, top tier combat

worldly venture
#

I asked my friend to stand infront of me and start biting at the same time I started stomping, I was spamming it hard as possible and came out on 4th screen barely alive

dim radish
sinful cove
worldly venture
sinful cove
#

The concept of balance is unheard of to deino players

dim radish
dusky surge
#

Deino is quite good atm, very frustrating to play against tbh due to the way the game is. We have dinos completely incapable of facing it due to the gap between the 1.8 ton carno and the 6/8 ton animals that are steg and deino respectively. Most of our carnivores are poor swimmers or incapable of taking on a deino, so deino's greatest fear is deino itself. Alt-bite makes combat against a deino just the most boring shit ever, literally nothing wants to fight it

worldly venture
dusky surge
#

Cerato is said to be a good swimmer and better suited to face off against larger animals, but we have to wait for that

sinful cove
worldly venture
#

Acting like stamina even makes a difference in that Matchup in the first place like my guy what

dim radish
dusky surge
#

Even then, cerato will only be suited for facing around <50% grown deinos.

sinful cove
#

Hey he just doesn’t wanna die tired when the rex beats his ass lol

worldly venture
#

Exactly!

worldly venture
dim radish
#

“BuT mUh TrAiLeR“

worldly venture
#

Dude the hope trailer was clickbait if deino mains had half a brain they'd have figured that out too and just accepted their fate of constantly fighting larger and larger Carno packs and somehow still winning

sinful cove
#

“The deino 3 called at a rex in the hope trailer, so as you can deduce, this means deino can brawl with a rex and win”

dusky surge
#

I swear to God, simply make the deino worse on land and reduce these ridiculous shallow spots and deino immediately gains a sense of horror

worldly venture
sinful cove
#

Beans TI_Succ

worldly venture
#

That's what the size of those peoples brains are, beans

dim radish
#

I mean, it looked pretty cool but Deino ain't brawling with Apexes

sinful cove
#

Yes this is fact

dusky surge
#

The issue with deinos is that they're for some reason great ground brawlers, which only works because everyone gets their damn water from the shallows

dim radish
#

It should have a 50/50 with Suchos in order to make a fight not worth it, why are people thinking it could take on a rex

worldly venture
#

Deino mains realising they have an equal Matchup with sucho and fighting apexes is just a wet dream TI_TenontoCry

dusky surge
#

Suchos need to be added to give deino mains things to do with their life

#

lmao

worldly venture
dusky surge
#

Deinos just spend their time cannibalising and mixpacking because deino has no natural prey. Probably because everyone exploits the generic safe drink spots

#

I kinda feel bad for deinos

worldly venture
#

Bary mains swimming at the speed of sound towards the juvi deino they heard TI_bary

dim radish
#

Deino won't even be reaching Suchos head xd

dim radish
dusky surge
#

This is true

worldly venture
#

I don't care what my diet is I'll relegate my life to murder of the fat crocs when Bary comes out

dusky surge
#

But at the same time, it kinda makes them bland. This is probably why they want to be able to kill everything

#

Because all they kill is their own kind and fish

worldly venture
#

Yeah have you seen a deino 1v1

#

It is literally just legacy death match server fights all over again

dusky surge
#

Exactly

#

It's boring as fuck

#

Deinos need more action in their sad lives

#

Get rid of these damn shallows

hollow canyon
#

@alpine ploverIf a group of Deinos allows a Stego to stand on the edge of the water and bully them they shouldn't be playing Deino.

dusky surge
#

Fix the broken-ass alt-bite

#

You have an actual water ambusher

worldly venture
#

I swear if Cerato 1v1s are that dull I'm gonna go play Dino world mobile for the rest of my life

#

Ptera, Utah and Carno fights are actually kinda interesting, but of course the one thing that has the diet of itself is just point and click adventure game

hollow canyon
#

Deino and Stego also didn't weigh as much as one another. Deino weighed significantly more but it's been downsized by the developers.

dusky surge
#

I would be fine with them upgrading deino to apex size if they started adding more large animals or some shit and fix their bland-ass land combat

worldly venture
#

I hope that 2 Pachys that dash eachother just fall on their asses if they're the same size

dusky surge
#

true

barren shard
#

@alpine plover completely incorrect but go off

spare badger
#

Stego is the one that needs a buff, a pseudo apex shouldn't have that much trouble against a Raptor.
Deino is the one with no good competition, we need sucho to slap the life out of it

dawn falcon
#

@carmine charm Hotfixes are released after updates but they’re too small to continue releasing after 2-3 hotfixes.
What if the small update breaks more things and now they have to delay the bigger update(s)?

carmine charm
# dawn falcon <@210791943083393026> Hotfixes are released after updates but they’re too small ...

I can clearly see your worry.But there are too many "small" issues in the game that can't wait for a "big" update. Not to mention that the big updates takes too much time. I hope its worth the time 🙂 . My point here is to look for an option which is a win-win situation for the DEVs and Gamers.
What about if normal peasant ppl like me can have access for QA testing? Like every week, for 1-2 days we are filling up the servers, where we of course accept the risk of laggs and bugs.
With a good report system it can boost up the progress.
This is only my opinion, im that guy who likes to think how to improve other then blaming someone or something.
I can't tell the good solution here, but im sure there are more people like me who will be happy to help with testing or anything that can make things better ... or even just happening 😄

dim radish
spare badger
dim radish
vagrant mural
#

sucho thinking it has a 50/50 until the 8 ton gator chomps on its stupid fucking arms and murders it

dim radish
#

Pff that crocroach can't even reach its body it's that flat

#

All Deino will be biting is ankles

spare badger
#

Deino actually can't get a headshot
But sucho will get one everytime

#

Really they will just not fight eachother

#

Unless one is small then oh boy

dim radish
spare badger
#

Exactly

#

That's how deino needs to be balanced
Of course if one is in a group then adult fights will happen

dim radish
#

But even then, they can avoid each other

#

Sucho is better in shallow water/land And Deino can swim better

spare badger
#

How to balance all the dinos
Deino needs sucho
Stego needs a movable cc swing
Carno needs a weaker bite
Dryo needs to be slower and get a better dodge
Hypsi needs longer ranged spit and a better camera
Teno is fine
Ptera is fine

#

That's what I think
Well the TLDR version at least

dim radish
#

Sucho grab/pin please

spare badger
#

Yes

dim radish
#

Crushes Dryo skulls TI_FeelsGoodMan

spare badger
#

Sucho is one of the strongest pseudo apexes, behind acro, right?

dim radish
#

Yes, it should be

#

From a raw strength perspective

#

I liked legacys brawler Sucho that ate mid tiers for breakfast

spare badger
#

Yea

#

Sadly for me

#

All the dinos I wanted to play in legacy

#

Sucked

#

I wanted to play
Pachy
Cerato
Sucho
Para
And they all are bad

dim radish
#

Sucho wasn't actually not that bad if you played on rules servers where other people weren't allowed to kill you in water TI_Troll

But yeah, the rest had issues. Pachy takes hits worse than a piece of jello, Para was not easy to keep, people would rather play Maia and Cerato was in bit of a weird spot around Allo and Carno

spare badger
#

Yea
The only way I could play sucho was to sit in water

#

Otherwise rex and Giga and spino would kill me
Sucho should be faster when it comes out (like 35km/h)

hollow canyon
#

Sucho isn't one of the strongest pseudoapexes at all. It's also weaker than Theri and probably wouldn't do too well against Pachyrhino either. It's more so a strong mid tier really.

spare badger
#

Is theri considered a pseudo?

hollow canyon
#

Yeah, it's 4.5t in weight, smaller than Acro

#

half the size of a Rex

spare badger
#

Huh

hollow canyon
#

Theri isn't a very big animal at all

#

Well, it's big but not quite apex-sized

spare badger
#

They need some dinos to bridge the gap between apexes and the rest of the playables imo

hollow canyon
#

Theri, Acro and others like that fill that size-class of between mid-tiers and apexes. I generally agree that we have too few animals of that size though. Same goes for mid tiers really, there just aren't enough animals between 2t and 5t

#

We really only have like Allo, Sucho, Alberto, Maia, Pachyrhino and Plateo

#

Not sure if Styraco is supposed to be added but I guess it could count although I don't remember if it was larger than 2t

spare badger
#

Isn't sucho gonna be like 5t in the recode tho

#

And like 11 meters?

hollow canyon
#

No idea, the devs have stated the animals are going to be at their largest paleoaccurate sizes which would put Sucho at ~3.6t in weight

#

11.4m

spare badger
#

Wait how big is pachyrhino

hollow canyon
#

3.9t?

#

Sucho might be bigger than the 3.6t as honestly it wouldn't feel right for an animal that takes quite a bit to grow to full adult to be just oneshot killed by a random Deino

spare badger
#

I feel like the maximum size estimate for sucho was 11.5 meters at 5.2 tons or smth

hollow canyon
#

It's not, Sucho's largest estimate is currently 11.4m and 3.6t

#

There's nothing that would suggest it to be bigger

spare badger
#

Huh

#

Well most of my Dino knowledge is pretty outdated lol

hollow canyon
#

Larger estimates are outdated but going by those we'd have a 20t Spinosaurus and something like a 13t Giga

#

While there probably were Suchos weighing 5t we don't have any evidence of their existence so far

spare badger
#

I didn't even know Troodon wasn't a dino anymore u til recently

hollow canyon
#

Things are changing in paleontology quite quickly, it might become a valid genus again in the near future as apparently Latenivenatrix has become synonymous with Stenonychosaurus

spare badger
#

I do remember that the specimen of sucho that we had was thought to be not fully grown
What came of that?

hollow canyon
#

It is fully grown according to our current knowledge

spare badger
#

All my knowledge was from books that were made like 10 years ago that I read when I was little

hollow canyon
#

The whole idea of it not being fully grown comes from an interview with Paul Sereno who said that the animal might've grown a bit larger but there isn't really any evidence that it was immature to our current knowledge if I understand correctly

spare badger
#

Huh

#

Where can I go to read a load of papers on dinos

#

I need to refresh my knowledge

hollow canyon
#

You might want to look in Google scholar and google some stuff. Try asking in the paleotalk channel on this discord as there's quite a couple of very knowledgeable people that are happy to share their knowledge with anyone interested in this topic

#

Nova puts Sucho at 5t in his size chart simply because initially he went along with this idea of Sucho not being fully grown, now however it is more so a matter of balance - if you let Sucho be an animal that's below 4t in weight it can get oneshot by Deinosuchus and considering that the two occupy the same environment their encounters are rather unavoidable.

#

And it simply isn't very fair to have a theropod that will presumably take some 3-4 hours to grow to full adult get oneshot by a croc that takes 5h to grow

spare badger
#

Yea

#

Thanks

hollow canyon
#

So yea there's quite a good case to be made about upsizing Sucho for the sake of gameplay and honestly it being 3.6t or 5t doesn't change much about how it will play since it won't be defeating an Acro or Theri regardless meanwhile it should be beating Allo/Alberto no matter which size you choose for it(although admittedly a 3.6t Sucho would struggle against a single Allo/Alberto far more than a 5t one), nevertheless the animal itself isn't that large in real life.

spare badger
#

Also
Would sucho have increased oxygen and outlast a deino lunge?

hollow canyon
#

I thought about that as an alternative way of fixing this match up but there are other issues with this approach

spare badger
#

Like pulling it into the river with more Crocs probably

hollow canyon
#

so if you let Sucho just have enough oxygen to outlast Deino's stamina there's another issue that may arise - Deino can just release it as far away from the shore as possible and then go medieval on its butt as the Sucho starts to make its way to the shore.

spare badger
#

Yea

hollow canyon
#

I'd hope the lunge mechanic is more developed by the time we get Sucho but if it's not then slapping some 4t+ weight on the Sucho should allow it to avoid becoming a croc-snack

spare badger
#

And there is the possibility that sucho could grow that big and we don't know

Nevertheless upsizing it is a good idea for gameplay

#

And we need to give Deino some competition

hollow canyon
#

Most dinosaurs that we have fossils of would've grown larger than their specimens that we found. It's just a matter of probability - the chance that we found the largest specimens is borderline non-existent.

spare badger
#

True

#

The fact that suchomimus lived by lakes, the mud will probably increase the chance of some fossils being found
I could be totally wrong bit that's how I understand it

tacit oriole
#

I got nothing to add just wanted to point out how interesting that info was @hollow canyon and @spare badger

spare badger
#

Uhh Thanks?

tacit oriole
#

Also agreed all points on your suggestion, which is unusual for one as long as that

spare badger
#

What I did was

#

I looked at what everyone was saying
Plus my experiences
And I compiled what made sense to me

#

Basically shower thoughts

tacit oriole
#

I still am not convinced that the carno could ever be a small game hunters... But it's a bit too meaty as a brawler atm

dusky surge
#

Honestly, cerato needs the higher biteforce, not carno. I've seen carnos try and take on stegs atm, which shouldn't be happening since the entire matchup is made to be unfavourable to carns

tacit oriole
#

Maybe what we need is a mechanic for big therapods to get knocked over

dusky surge
#

I wish they would hurry up and add cerato so we stop seeing these brawler carns

tacit oriole
#

Stegs should be able to just about shove a carno over and curbstomp it imo

dusky surge
#

oh absolutely

#

nothing in carnos kit compliments it fighting a steg

spare badger
#

I agree

tacit oriole
#

Fractures will probably be a big nerf to carnos though, so I'd say we will need to come back and look at all this again after u4

spare badger
#

Cera should be doing what carno is trying to do

dusky surge
#

charge is useless and it hasn't the agility to move in and out of range of a steg's attack radius. It literally should never be fighting a steg

spare badger
tacit oriole
#

I wonder if you could make a shoulder-barge charge work for something like a steg

#

Give it a charge to knock things over and a rear+stomp to attack downed stuff

dusky surge
#

Cera needs to be a territorial scavenger that scares off other creatures from food. I'd see it having a decent turn radius but lower speed, unlike the carno, and possessing a higher bite force with some brutal close-range defensive moves.

spare badger
#

^^^

#

Also diets will force carno to go small game

dusky surge
#

If a cera decides it wants to take food from, say, a raptor or carno, it most likely will. That should be the key point. It's said to even take on deinos with its higher swimspeed and through looking at concept art.

tacit oriole
#

So the idea with Cerato is they would be a little like dienos on land - slower than most things in their weight range (so they to just run away and not be hunted), but with enough power to just stand their ground and fight if they need to?

spare badger
dusky surge
#

Oh yea, obviously

#

No way a <2 ton animal is taking down an 8 ton

spare badger
#

Water could be an escape from smth

dusky surge
#

Yep, since carn and utah both have dogshit swimspeeds

spare badger
#

Like a large pack of carnos
Don't try it with a sucho or bary lol

tacit oriole
#

Is there any other way to say "you are a scavenger, not a hunter" beyond making them slow and loud?

dusky surge
#

Cera will probably end up scavenging food and living near water sources and hauling ass if anything goes poorly, but being able to put up a pretty damn good fight against any equal size or smaller competition

spare badger
#

It should see better than most dinos, but slower than semi aquatics

tacit oriole
dusky surge
#

Not fast

#

They use water to haul ass

#

Since their swim speed is quite good

tacit oriole
#

Oh, gotcha

spare badger
#

Faster than the big Bois
Slower than like a teno probably

dusky surge
#

Their landspeed would be lower than utah or carno.

tacit oriole
#

Makes good game balance sense even if the mechanics of it are a bit weird

spare badger
#

Cera should be the mid tier equivalent to legacy sucho

tacit oriole
#

Give them a tall teno-esq tail and let them croc swim maybe

spare badger
#

It'll bully everything smaller or same size and run for water at anything big

tacit oriole
#

Isn't that meant to be the spino MO as well?

#

And teno, come to think of it

spare badger
#

Spino is the biggest boi

#

Excluding sauropods ofc

#

Not teno really they nerfed it's swim speed

tacit oriole
#

Spino was only a psuedo-apex wasnt it? Like 7t or something

spare badger
#

Wdym

tacit oriole
#

Not rex/giga/allo level

spare badger
#

Spino is the largest carnivore to be released

sinful cove
#

allo > spino? lol no

spare badger
#

Allo is nowhere near apex level

sinful cove
#

spino was out there killing rexes and gigas in legacy

tacit oriole
#

Or am I being the big dumb again

spare badger
#

It's 9 meters

#

Does anyone have the size chart

sinful cove
#

spino is longer than a rex, a heavy bastard, and only not a land hunter because he was shaped like a salamander on steroids irl

tacit oriole
#

Oh yeah scratch allo that wasn't the one I was thinking of

spare badger
#

Acro?

tacit oriole
#

Yeah, that's the one

#

Oh, I guess spino was in the same weight class as the others, my bad

lament cloak
tacit oriole
#

Haha

spare badger
#

Lmao what

tacit oriole
#

Seems legit

spare badger
#

100% accurate source

tacit oriole
#

Allo-Class Battlecruiser

#

Orc approved

#

Is spino slated for Evrima?

spare badger
#

Dunno

#

Did that work? My phone is acting up

tacit oriole
#

It doesn't have an extension but I fixed it

#

Surely no bronto, how in heck would that work haha

stark knoll
#

bronto is soft confirmed i believe, we have an old model

spare badger
#

That's spino

#

That's allo

tacit oriole
#

Confirmed bronto is quetz prey

#

Dunno what else could hunt a 20t prehistoric giraffe

#

Unless utahs can climb up them Attack on Titan style

spare badger
#

Uhh

#

Gigas hunted the largest dino to ever exist sooo

lament cloak
tacit oriole
#

Gigas hunted bronto? Or just ate them

spare badger
#

Giga hunted argentinosaurus did it not?

#

Or is that outdated now too

lament cloak
tacit oriole
#

I feel like I am the least qualified person here to answer those questions

spare badger
#

Never heard of it

sinful cove
#

didnt mapu or carch hunt argent

#

think it was mapu

spare badger
#

Carchara hunted patagonititan

#

It lived with spino

#

Mapu hunted them I think

tacit oriole
#

From that size chart giga heads barely touch bronto stomachs, and if they hunted anything like modern day big cats - strangling rather than ripping and tearing - they'd have to trip them down to kill them. Lions can't hunt giraffe for the same reason

lament cloak
spare badger
#

Also baro is 27m 20 tons
Argentino is 40m 100t
From that quick google I haven't heard of baro so I am probably wrong

tacit oriole
#

Even hyena, who do just bite chunks out of stuff while it's still alive, don't go for giraffe unless they are seriously desperate

tacit oriole
spare badger
#

They are chonky bois

tacit oriole
lament cloak
tacit oriole
spare badger
#

Being a diplodocid it was probably really long
But I doubt it was heavier than an argentino

#

Also according to google both Giga and mapu ate it

tacit oriole
#

Most of the (limited compared to others here) articles I've read suggests that giga/rex et al were mostly scavengers, so I don't think eating equals hunting

sinful cove
#

the rex scavenger article is bs

#

i havent seen that about giga

#

the main paleontologist behind scavenger rex openly admitted he hates rex so thats why he keeps dunking on it

tacit oriole
#

Oh, bleh I'll retract that statement in that case

#

Hey @alpine plover

alpine plover
#

oh no

tacit oriole
#

Saw you typing

alpine plover
#

hi :))))

sinful cove
#

like i hate rex a lot too, overrated dino, but biases should be pushed aside

spare badger
#

No

alpine plover
#

I was gonna say the scavenger rex theory is not only flawed. but stupid

sinful cove
#

the guy behind scavenger rex also made a big deal about rex being stinky and ugly, not even kidding

#

like he went on a lot about how rex was sooo disgusting

alpine plover
#

Professional

spare badger
#

Giga being a scavenger just sounds wrong, look at it's build. It's built like an Allo

sinful cove
#

giga and rex probably scavenged about as much as any predator, an easy meal is an easy meal

#

but they definitely hunted

alpine plover
#

any predator would take a free meal. but rex didn’t only just scavenge. It had amazing endurance and a disgusting biteforce for a reason

spare badger
#

The rex scavenging theory has many holes, but rex could scavenge if it wanted
But we have proof of hunting

tacit oriole
#

Well that seems conclusive to me, thanks brains trust

spare badger
#

We have a tail vertabrae of a hadrosaur that had been bitten by a rex and recovered from the injury

alpine plover
#

Surprised it lived tbh

spare badger
#

For Allo we have proof that stegos stabbed them through the pelvis and survived

sinful cove
#

oh yeah there was that poor bastard who got thagged in the cloaca

alpine plover
#

That must’ve been pain no human could even experience

sinful cove
#

rough day

tacit oriole
spare badger
#

Oof

alpine plover
#

Poor Allo

sinful cove
#

there was also that allo who healed from a wacky jaw injury right

spare badger
#

Sounds painful

#

Yea

sinful cove
#

or was that just for the documentary

alpine plover
#

May have actually happened I think

sinful cove
#

i think it was based on a fragillis fossil but they used a diff species for the doc, but it was based on an actual fossil

spare badger
#

And Giga has the same build as an Allo
Idk if we have proof of them hunting I haven't checked but the similar builds make me think so

alpine plover
#

Well, if recent studies are correct they are well known sauropod butchers

spare badger
#

Yea

sinful cove
#

giganotosaurs also lived in small groups didnt they, they wouldnt need to do that to just bully smaller theropods off of carcasses

alpine plover
#

Those teeth are deadly

spare badger
#

Food to go

#

That was a suggestion
Flesh grazing for Giga
I liked that suggestion

tacit oriole
#

I kinda miss the old legacy carcass system

alpine plover
#

if it can form mobs and communicate well enough to take down titans I think that’s pretty smart for a prehistoric theropod

spare badger
#

Ppl think Giga was dumb?
Sure most dinos aren't as smart as the avian counterparts but it's a predator
Not a stego

tacit oriole
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I think most of those big carnivores would probably have orca-level intellect

spare badger
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Nah

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That's WAY too smart

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Orcas are ridiculously smart

alpine plover
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Rex was pretty damn smart to recent studies. Not as smart as orcas though

spare badger
#

Maybe like modern day carnivore smart

tacit oriole
#

It depends on whether they were properly warm blooded or not, cold and mesothermic animals tend to be a lot dumber

alpine plover
#

orcas probably exceed apes in terms of intelligence

spare badger
#

No tool use racoon gigas

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Orcas are one of the smartest creatures alive
Smarter than apes excluding humans

alpine plover
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Elephants are pretty smart too

tacit oriole
#

I think anything that can grow from ostrich egg size to 8ton in a world as hostile as that would need to be pretty smart

alpine plover
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Imagine how painful it was to reach to adulthood

spare badger
#

Yea
Pack hunters need to be smart
I'd expect a Giga to be about lion intelligence

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Average pack hunters type

tacit oriole
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Do we know how big their brains were? Not that size directly translates to intelligence

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All getting a bit off topic tho

alpine plover
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I think it’s brain was relatively large for its size. Then again brain size doesn’t really matter to begin with

spare badger
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Meh doesn't matter
Intelligence is based off of brain weight to body weight ratio I think

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That's why our heads are so big

tacit oriole
#

Well it's true that bigger bodies tend to need bigger brains just to control them, but big current day herbivores often have surprisingly small brains

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Horses f.e.

alpine plover
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Nooo the chat died

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This was getting interesting

tacit oriole
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Sorry 😞

alpine plover
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It’s ok @tacit oriole

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Anyways, giga when

vagrant mural
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It really depends on how the brain is shaped and wrinkles and stuff iirc

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Like you know how our brains have that distinctive huge wrinkly mass at the front

alpine plover
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That’s just the thing with dinosaurs.

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We can’t really tell

tacit oriole
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Yeah, area and proportions matter - prefrontal cortex vs more utilitarian brain functions

vagrant mural
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I think we do have some brain cases

alpine plover
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so we have to assume due to the body structure

spare badger
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Wrinkles are important
And the ratio of weight of brain to weight of animal

Koalas have like 3 wrinkles and are incredibly stupid

alpine plover
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Koalas are incredibly dumb lol

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literally eat poisonous leaves all the time

tacit oriole
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They just sleep all day, not much intellect required

vagrant mural
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Here is what I think is an allo brain

image0.jpg
alpine plover
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Marsupials in general aren’t very smart I believe

spare badger
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Yea

vagrant mural
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Marsupials are pretty stupid

spare badger
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Below average for mammals

tacit oriole
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Nah, that's not true

alpine plover
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Are you sure @tacit oriole

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Ping

spare badger
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We can distinguish how good dinos are at sight and smell with brain cases tho

vagrant mural
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Koalas can not recognize the leaves they eat on a plate in front of them

spare badger
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Exactly

alpine plover
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they don’t do much to begin with

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Large theropods had to hunt for their food and they are definitely capable of learning.

spare badger
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If you put them in a different tree they will starve
Even if it is eucalyptus

tacit oriole
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Yeah there are a range of mammal analogues which are actually smarter, like the antechinus

spare badger
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Sauropods probably weren't very smart
Which makes sense

alpine plover
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yeah. Didn’t really have to do much

tacit oriole
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Kangaroos and wallabies are smarter than deer, though that's a pretty low bar

vagrant mural
spare badger
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To be expected

alpine plover
vagrant mural
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Definitely

alpine plover
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which makes sense for a Jurassic theropod

spare badger
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Did they work in packs?

alpine plover
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They weren’t very social to begin with

vagrant mural
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The brain case lines up pretty nicely with a croc’s for reference

alpine plover
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No I don’t think so

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Maybe 1-2

vagrant mural
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Allo working in packs has always been a debated subject

spare badger
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Crocs aren't stupid
But they aren't too smart

vagrant mural
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Well all theropods really

alpine plover
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Crocs are actually pretty smart for reptiles

tacit oriole
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I imagine they were probably a bit like dogs, very heavily developed smell and probably sight/sound, very good memory for places and geography, but not like... Ape smarts? Hard to know

alpine plover
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But that’s not saying much

tacit oriole
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Most reptiles can't get super smart just because of their poor temperature regulation

spare badger
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Nah not ape smarts
No tool use
Except maybe for Troodon (idr the name of what it is now)

alpine plover
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Just call it troodon

tacit oriole
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High tech brains need very careful temp regulation

alpine plover
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Who cares what the paleo nerds think lol

vagrant mural
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“”Troodon”” was estimated to be around chicken levels of intelligence

alpine plover
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I’m gonna call Troodon Troodon

vagrant mural
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Which isn’t bad

alpine plover
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Chickens are actually kinda smart tbh

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Most avians are

spare badger
#

I remember the 2 species of Troodon
The huge Alaska one
And the smol other one

vagrant mural
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It’s most definitely better than the majority of theropods

alpine plover
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However the accusation of Troodon being as intelligent as a chicken seems false. Since less intelligent dinosaurs can socialize and communicate pretty well

spare badger
#

Yea
Looking at avians
We can infer that raptors were probably decently intelligent

alpine plover
#

Raptors were probably as smart as birds of prey. Maybe a little dumber

spare badger
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Wolf like intelligence

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Fits with their lifestyle

tacit oriole
#

Birds of prey (big raptors like eagles) are actually pretty freaking dumb in my experience

vagrant mural
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Wolf like intelligence is a stretch

alpine plover
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Wolves are pretty smart so

spare badger
vagrant mural
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In relation to other birds they’re not exactly genius

spare badger
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Yea

tacit oriole
spare badger
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Corvids are really smart tho

tacit oriole
#

Even your basic parrot seems smarter

spare badger
#

Parrots and corvids are very smart

alpine plover
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I’m pretty sure pigeons are more intelligent than birds of prey (then again pigeons are very intelligent for a bird)

vagrant mural
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Truly social raptors might not have appeared until the late Cretaceous

tacit oriole
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Like don't get me wrong, I'm a big raptor (bird) weeboo and love working with them but smart they are not

spare badger
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Deinonychus and the like?

spare badger
#

So being below average for a bird is still smart in the grand scheme of things

alpine plover
#

Ostriches are pretty dumb for a bird but that’s not saying much because birds in general are pretty smart

spare badger
tacit oriole
#

For example pelicans are way smarter than Wedgetails and ospreys

vagrant mural
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Ye birds are pretty smart

alpine plover
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Thanks for compliment :)))))

vagrant mural
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But that probably doesn’t extend to the majority of dinosaurs

tacit oriole
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Pigeons are dumb af tho

alpine plover
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No shut up

spare badger
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Yea
But the closer related ones like raptors are probably closer

spare badger
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Below average for a bird yes

alpine plover
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I mean

vagrant mural
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Pigeons are smart enough to take orders and are excellent navigators

alpine plover
#

that’s very smart for a bird

tacit oriole
#

Pigeons have some skills with navigation, and a great memory, but they really are stupid

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At least that's been my experience, family used to race them

sinful cove
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pigeons will just sit there while a predator mauls one of their own 2 feet away

alpine plover
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this is harassment

vagrant mural
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I mean tbf most birds also don’t get shown on international tv getting mauled by catfish

sinful cove
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pelicans just waltz up and scoop a pigeon that doesnt start reacting until its already caught

spare badger
#

Yea

tacit oriole
#

Pelicans are really hard to catch, even when they are very socialised with people

spare badger
#

pack hunting raptors wouldn't be as smart as wolves but they would be too far behind I think

vagrant mural
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It’s possible they were mobbers like foxes or komodos

tacit oriole
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We get them with hooks or fishing lines tangled around them, you get one chance to grab them and then they won't let you near them again

alpine plover
#

Komodo dragons are actually horrifying

sinful cove
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some troodontids like stenonychosaurs were very smart on dinosaur standards right

spare badger
vagrant mural
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Smart enough to realize if they all pitch in they could kill something bigger but still too stupid to actually coordinate

spare badger
alpine plover
#

Megalania is going to be cool

vagrant mural
#

For reference there is only 1 known raptor to actually pack hunt, and the Harris hawk is pretty limited in terms of range

spare badger
alpine plover
#

I wonder who would win between a cerato and a megalania

spare badger
#

Mobbing a smaller Diplo or smth

tacit oriole
#

Hot take: scavengers tend to be smarter than primary hunters

alpine plover
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cold take

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freezing take

spare badger
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Uhhh

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How smart are vultures

alpine plover
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I am going to turn into a ice cube take

alpine plover
#

not too dumb but not very smart

#

It’s just average

tacit oriole
alpine plover
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dmart

tacit oriole
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Dumb-smart

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I will not correct it

alpine plover
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Kmart

tacit oriole
#

I suck pretty hard at phone keyboards if you haven't noticed already

spare badger
#

Lol same

alpine plover
#

Typing fast on a phone is frustrating

spare badger
#

I'm constantly editing my sentences

alpine plover
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I never use my pc to talk on here

spare badger
#

Nah

tacit oriole
#

This amuses me for some reason

alpine plover
#

Edited

tacit oriole
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(edited)

spare badger
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Yup

vagrant mural
#

Lammergiars and Egyptian vultures use pretty neat techniques so it’s not impossible

tacit oriole
#

Intelligence isn't something that can be really programmed in, but I'd like to see some experimentation into other ways to represent brain/sensory stats... Better or worse smell, maybe some sort of map tool for some dinos, better or worse vision somehow

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Maybe some dinos could get helper aids for sounds with a little direction indicator, maybe something like trodoon could even understand its preys chat

alpine plover
#

Rex should be able to determine what animal is what by smelling it’s tracks due to its superior sense of smell

tacit oriole
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@sinful cove raised a good point that we can't expect to be able to identify every species using the current system, but yeah maybe if you stop and sniff tracks directly you can get a little symbol showing what the Dino was

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Like a footprint icon thing unique to each

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Herbivores should be able to pick herbivore from carnivores, maybe the latter could be more red tinged depending on how much of a threat it was

spare badger
#

I'd like something like that to happen when they add defecation
Like you can see what they ate depending on how good you can smell

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Like if you have a bad sense of ell you can tell it are a dino
Mediocre you can tell it ate a hadrosaur
Really good you can tell it ate a para

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Something like that

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Or you could just tell based off of experience

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There are slight visual differences, etc

tacit oriole
#

I like the idea of having information available, but it needs experience to really get all the data from it

spare badger
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I did suggest that once

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When pooping was announced

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Ppl don't like the concept of pooping tho

tacit oriole
#

Like if you wanted a species to differentiate between members of its own species, have a texture on the footprints which matches the colouration customisation

spare badger
#

Yes

#

Exactly

tacit oriole
#

The whole toiletry thing seems a bit contentious, I think it's kinda neat

spare badger
#

Oh this is a teno cause it has this bush in it and it's the right size

This is a Magy cause of this type of fruit remains and the size

Etc

vagrant mural
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I am an average bodily functions hater

tacit oriole
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Or the shape of the droppings, like we use today