balance-feedback-discussion

[vagrant mural]

If you’re going to use that logic then deino is the current land apex, not carno, which it shouldn’t be

[indigo vigil]

yeah, they need to fix shit

[left scroll]

apex in this conversation simply means whatever animal is on top of it's respective food chain. Currently carno functions as the land apex. once carno and dilo are in, they very well may overthrow it and become the new land apexes, as carno is made weaker to scale with them correctly

deino does need fixing, it's a bit too viable on land

[vagrant mural]

Alt bite stam drain

Please

[indigo vigil]

man, still. all preds are overweight besides utah

[left scroll]

but it's an equal concern for everyone, not just utah

carno will get reduced once more stuff is in

[indigo vigil]

yeah, so they should be fixing it

[left scroll]

just like how stego is pretty weak atm

[indigo vigil]

Id say steg is strong as shit..

[left scroll]

nah it's kinda shit atm lol

[indigo vigil]

carnos stegs and deinos rule the servers

HOW?

it can 1v1 a deino

[vagrant mural]

Ptera is actually in a weird spot, it’s weight position is actually similar to Utah

[left scroll]

utahs and dryos can kill them solo, carno pairs can give them a lot of strife too. land crocs are somewhat equal, kinda depends on the skill

[vagrant mural]

Deino claps it

[indigo vigil]

Ill remind u, deinos were supposed to be a fear for rexes

[left scroll]

stego's only viable weapon is just way too easy to dodge if the animal is agile, which most of the roster is

[vagrant mural]

Isn’t stego supposed to be able to fight a rex as well

[indigo vigil]

show me or this is as worthy as a bucket of I wont say what

[left scroll]

im not sure what the plan for stego vs apexes is tbh

source: nearly died to two carnos as a stego despite playing well

[vagrant mural]

It should be able to hold its own imo

[indigo vigil]

"despite playing well"...

[left scroll]

once again, for like the 3rd time man. Just because you personally didn't witness something, doesn't mean it doesnt happen

[indigo vigil]

same to u

[left scroll]

i mean I've seen what you've claimed. I've seen utahs get absolutely wiped

but I've also seen them be a huge menace

[vagrant mural]

It goes both ways

[indigo vigil]

not really

[vagrant mural]

Utahs are either punching bags

Or an absolute menace

[indigo vigil]

yeah they supposed to be terrors of the small preds

[indigo vigil]

1% of the utahs playerbase

[left scroll]

A solo utah isn't usually a concern I think, unless they're particularly skilled. But utah packs are an issue for most of the roster if the pack plays well

[golden coral]

@indigo vigilJust a quick note, carno ingame weights 1,8 or something. It's not overweight, possibly underweight if anything. And I think only utah has so much more health than weight, stego is weak and fragile for being a stego, and deino is on the smaller side as well compared to how big those things apparently could get.

[left scroll]

part of the issue is just that the playerbase sucks at coordinating lol

[indigo vigil]

1.8 my ass

[left scroll]

yeah that sounds about right

[indigo vigil]

this about evrima man

[left scroll]

i have no clue where you got the 3+ estimate from

[indigo vigil]

bruh

[vagrant mural]

Ptera is 90 kg when more conservative estimates are around 45

But like

[indigo vigil]

time to slay myself again

[golden coral]

It is, what you showed is a bug, that has happened to others as well. Carno does not weight more than 2T unless they've changed since the latest patch.

[vagrant mural]

That’s mainly because of it being able to pick up fish

[vagrant mural]

And the fact I think there was a 90kg Ptera estimate

[indigo vigil]

oh wait wtf

[golden coral]

Like I said.. :p

[indigo vigil]

alr ur right wait.,.

the fuck

[left scroll]

as they said, bug

[golden coral]

I told you, it's a bug, it happens, can happen to other things too

[indigo vigil]

breh.. argh but still, utahs just being a punching bag , it should be able to hold itself up in a pack

[left scroll]

it falls short in a pack because the pounce is too tricky to use and because most players suck at taking turns and just end up killing each other lol

but it's not really an issue with stats

[indigo vigil]

its getting constantly debuffed, too much at this point

keep weight as it is - make dmg better

[vagrant mural]

As long as you’re smart about it utah packs can take on everything expect like deino

[indigo vigil]

again.. 5 ticks and ur 0% stam

[indigo vigil]

^ as I said, and yeah sure but the things like 3 shot all of them and they dead and their stam is TRASH

[left scroll]

yes again, the pounce is too tricky to use. like I said

[indigo vigil]

yeah so u agree with me

tf u being against me for

[left scroll]

because you've also implied there's an issue with it's health and damage

which I don't think is the case

[vagrant mural]

Dryo still wins the Utah matchup even with a pack tho

[indigo vigil]

my argument here has been 'utahs being underput'

[indigo vigil]

..proof

[left scroll]

dryo does too much damage atm lol

[vagrant mural]

Source: I went on a spree and killed a shitload

[indigo vigil]

LMAO NICE. ah yes

I see now

mmMMMMmm

[vagrant mural]

Dryo busted

[left scroll]

but that's partly just because dryo's bite is stupid

and it's too fast

[indigo vigil]

I am very sorry yes for my mistake yes yes

as u obv proved me wrong with "I went on a spree and killed a shitload'

[sinful cove]

Dryo is busted i almost killed a stego with one

[indigo vigil]

yes yes I am SOOO sorry

[vagrant mural]

Never said it had to be adults did I

[left scroll]

it's a comment on how dryo is too good, not that utah is bad

[indigo vigil]

Im talking about utah..

[vagrant mural]

Dryo 1 taps juvi Utah

[left scroll]

right, but they were talking about dryo

[indigo vigil]

it shouldnttt

[vagrant mural]

Combine that with drastically better mobility

[indigo vigil]

yea

so

[vagrant mural]

And

Boom

[indigo vigil]

mhm?

[vagrant mural]

No worries about Utah ever

[left scroll]

idk a full grown dryo probably should kill a fresh spawn juvie imo

[sinful cove]

Dryo one tapping juv utah is a dryo issue not a utah issue

[indigo vigil]

my god

[left scroll]

like, baby utah is tiny compared to adult dryo

[indigo vigil]

yall are dodging my argument

[left scroll]

nah the dryos are

[indigo vigil]

if a utah isnt bad all the things are AROUND it

so fuckin speak up for the devs to fix this

thats what Im tryna do

[vagrant mural]

They should definitely nerf Dryo speed tho

Unironically

[indigo vigil]

so fuckin speak up about it

[vagrant mural]

Keep its bite tho, I find it hilarious it can like 2 shot subs to the head

I have

[indigo vigil]

dont add utah needs a debuff and all shit

[vagrant mural]

Multiple times

[indigo vigil]

It shouldnt be kept bc its funny

[vagrant mural]

Eh

Might as well abuse it before we lose it

[indigo vigil]

and people wonder why less and less people play the isle

[left scroll]

Here's kinda what I gather of the current situation, in the context of utah fighting the rest of the roster

-utah's pounce is too risky to pull off thanks to the awful dismount, so utah's main way of dealing damage is now unreliable, even in packs
-teno is fine
-carno is a bit too beefy, but mostly because it's having to function as land apex
-stego is too easy to dodge, so utah's can take advantage of that
-deino's alt bite needs to take stam, it makes them too hard to fight on land. Not that it matters for a utah who can just. run away
-dryo needs to be a bit slower and do less damage
-hypsi and ptera are...... hypsi and ptera, when it comes to trying to fight a utah

[indigo vigil]

i agree with all of this instead of stego

[left scroll]

stego is absolutely too easy to dodge, it's a big issue for them atm

[indigo vigil]

stego is a pain and a half, as I said 7 bites to body from a stegos beck to a utah body its dead

[left scroll]

right but like. as a solo utah you don't need to fight a stego anyway

[indigo vigil]

and with the utahs hitbox going back, how u expect a utah to 1v1 it

[left scroll]

and a pack of utahs can totally obliterate a stego

[indigo vigil]

yeah but they dont

[left scroll]

I don't expect utah to 1v1 stego cus it doesn't need to

[indigo vigil]

they get hit from milesss away

[vagrant mural]

That’s a desync problem

[indigo vigil]

yeah. I agree

[left scroll]

eh that's just thanks to rubberbanding being terrible atm

[indigo vigil]

yeah so speak up so they fix it

[left scroll]

which applies to basically all fights

you imply we havent

[indigo vigil]

I dont see it

[left scroll]

ah yes, you've truly looked so hard

[indigo vigil]

plus Ive seen it more on utah , carnos and whatnot have it less

[vagrant mural]

When the topic comes up I voice my opinion on it, if I feel strongly about it I might post it in balance feedback

[left scroll]

the issue isnt that utah gets hit from far away, but stego and carno can hit from far away if you get what I mean

[indigo vigil]

it issss

Ive been hit behind a carno

when it wasnt even doing an alt towards me behind him

[left scroll]

yes, because the carno has issues, not the utah

carno does this to the entire roster

[indigo vigil]

my tail MIGHTVE hit its jaws but it takes down like 50% my hp

[vagrant mural]

Carno’s hit boxes combined with the server issues is actual ass rn

[indigo vigil]

so fix shit around utah so it can play

[left scroll]

carno's hitting things from far away is a biiig issue atm, everything suffers from it

[indigo vigil]

can we agree on that , so I can leave this shit alone

dont debuff utahs, fix shit around them

[left scroll]

I mean I don't think it needs to be done for the sake of just utah, but for the sake of the entire roster

I don't think utah really needs any debuffs

[indigo vigil]

yeahh

[left scroll]

desync and animations just need to be improved

[vagrant mural]

Or the sake of the game in general

[indigo vigil]

sooo agreee with mee

XD

[vagrant mural]

Hit boxes rn just kinda suck

[indigo vigil]

alr im done adios

[vagrant mural]

Cya

[indigo vigil]

I dont want my brain fried from yall

[left scroll]

i genuinly dont know why I stuck around for this long lol

[vagrant mural]

Same

[alpine plover]

Cause it’s fun

[tacit oriole]

Yo that comment in #balance-feedback about utahs - don't they have 550 HP, not 1000?

I've one-shot a fully grown, uninjured Utah with a headbite from a deino

and I'm pretty sure a tail bite plus body bite from a deino kills, so thats 600 tops

[crystal wharf]

@vast fossil bite force is an in game damage stat
not the actual realistic bite force of the animal

[hollow canyon]

@tacit orioleIt doesn't and Utah has 1k hp, not 550. I have no idea where you got that number from.

You also couldn't have oneshot a fully grown, uninjured Utah with a headbite. It must've been injured at that point or simply not fully grown.

[tacit oriole]

headshots are supposed to do extra damage

[hollow canyon]

They do

but they do not oneshot a Utah

They take out exactly 75% of Utah's health

[tacit oriole]

I guess my response is: you are very confident it has 1000hp, where are you getting that from

unless it's like... testing

which would be fair

[stark knoll]

amarok's livestreams where he leaks the specific stats

[hollow canyon]

A/ it was shown on streams back when the devs were working on Evrima

Even before Amarok's streams

[tacit oriole]

oh well in that case my bad haha

[stark knoll]

utah has 1k hp

[hollow canyon]

you could see it having 1k health

you can also test it

I've tested Deino vs Utah on a server where I had admin privileges

Deino takes out exactly 50% of Utah's health with a bite on the body

75% with a headshot

[tacit oriole]

OK, thanks for putting me straight on that one

[hollow canyon]

Utah definitely has 1k health as of now

[tacit oriole]

appreciate the explanation and justification

[hollow canyon]

You're welcome

[tacit oriole]

so to confirm: headshots are 1.5x damage?

I might go watch the stream and update the wiki in the morning, actually

and tell the person who confidently told me it was 550 that it's not, haha

[vast fossil]

I agree but taking into consideration that the rex in legacy had 1200 newtons maybe at least increase the deino too 600 and add breaks im not asking for a massive damage increase, im just asking it to be more realistic considering its supposed to be a dino survival simulator

[crystal wharf]

legacy means exactly nothing to evrima balance
at all

and, no
it wont be realistic
because that is a DAMAGE STAT
unless you want deino to oneshot brachi, it will never be realistic

[vagrant mural]

Sabre

[vast fossil]

I'm not asking it to be exact i said more realistic, and just so you know deinos took on brachis and brontos when they met, never an easy fight but they did anyway dude

[crystal wharf]

AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH

[stark knoll]

[vagrant mural]

And where my friend is your very common footage of deino fucking with sauropods

[crystal wharf]

sabre? is it really you?

[vast fossil]

smartass

[vagrant mural]

Come to think of it

[vast fossil]

check again

[vagrant mural]

Hold on one second

[hollow canyon]

Not for all the animals. Every animal has different locational damage multipliers. Utah specifically receives 1.5x the normal damage if it gets hit with a headshot.

[stark knoll]

what

[hollow canyon]

From what I recall e.g. Stegosaurus is more vulnerable to headshots than a Utah. Not sure about most other animals.

[dim radish]

I can't-

[vast fossil]

you cant what?

they lived into the cretaceous period

[hollow canyon]

SaucySalad - Deino is the last animal that needs any kind of buff atm.

[dim radish]

early

[hollow canyon]

It's literally the most broken level of good playable in the game right now.

[tacit oriole]

Cheers

[dim radish]

Deino be snorting the extinct souls of brachis or how do they meet?

[vagrant mural]

sauropods lived in the cretaceous yes, but brachi and bronto lived in the jurassic, in the morrison, deino is most commonly found in the gulf coast plains in mexico apparently, and it lived during the late cretaceous

[tacit oriole]

If deino get a damage buff it needs to be balanced with a nerf elsewhere, but I would agree it feels a bit odd that you can lunge and drag a carno underwater while they helplessly struggle... but also bite them three times and they just lol away into the brush

[alpine plover]

early cretaceous

Not late cretaceous

[vagrant mural]

deinonychus is a raptor

what

[dim radish]

Bruh that's Deinoychus not Deinosuchus

[crystal wharf]

good source right?

[vagrant mural]

and that has even less of an argument for taking on sauropods

[vast fossil]

so the deino wasnt early cretaceous either?

[vagrant mural]

yes

[dim radish]

No

[stark knoll]

thats deinonychus

[crystal wharf]

THATS NOT DEINOSUCHUS

[stark knoll]

deinosuchus is a large crocodilian

[vagrant mural]

deinonychus and deinosuchus are 2 very differnet animals

[dim radish]

I'm dying

[crystal wharf]

this is deinonychus

[stark knoll]

deinonychus is a dromaeosaur aka raptor

[tacit oriole]

holy shit imagine the bite force on that thing

[crystal wharf]

this is deinosuchus

[vagrant mural]

might as well include this guy as well

[tacit oriole]

that's just an ugly teno

nty

[vast fossil]

iight whatever you guys are right, I don't really care to what point anymore, my point was people need to stop saying they need a nerf

[hollow canyon]

It actually isn't that surprising at all. Crocodilians mainly kill by grabbing things and drowning them. They do not really pulverise their prey items with their jaws. Admittedly real life D.hatcheri did have a very impressive bite force at the tip of each tooth but I don't know if its bite would necessarily be quite as damaging.

Oh, Deino definitely needs a nerf

[dim radish]

It does tho

Alt bite needs to cost stam

[tacit oriole]

I think they need less stamina and bites cost stamina

but I don't think less damage is a good idea

[hollow canyon]

Deinosuchus as it is is absurdly easy to grow and keep alive while also having great match ups against every animal in the game.

[tacit oriole]

For me playing them, the bites felt underpowered, but I get why they are where they are

[crystal wharf]

they do need a nerf
because they are only killable by other deinos

[vast fossil]

I agree with that but i dont agree with the bite force unless breaks are added

[oak wind]

Wowowow.

Deinosuchus was a late cretaceous animal, meanwhile the sauropods you were talking about are late jurassic one. More than 50 millions years separate all those animals.

[dim radish]

No One said that

[vast fossil]

yes everyone here just finished saying that the bite force was more than enough and i disagree

[tacit oriole]

A lot of people want deinos nerfed because they are too hard to kill when adults... which I get, but that is kinda realistic

not balanced maybe, but realistic

[hollow canyon]

It's not really that they're too hard to kill when adults. The issue is that they're too easy to grow on top of that

[dim radish]

Psst, Balance is more important than realism

[hollow canyon]

And aren't threatened by any animal in the game.

[tacit oriole]

Well, that's the real issue

[vast fossil]

most people hunt baby deinos instantly anyway not making it easy to grow to adult and some cannibalize soooo

[tacit oriole]

the only thing I've ever died to as a deino

is a deino

tbf that happens a lot

[hollow canyon]

they can hunt baby Deinos all they want - no animal aside from Deino is really capable of killing them unless the baby Deino is outright bad.

[vast fossil]

but thats not the point of the game this isnt a pvp esport

[hollow canyon]

I don't remember when the last time that I died while growing Deino was

[dim radish]

The point of a game is balance

[tacit oriole]

I'm torn between... balance and healthy gameplay... and my love of my big floating logs

[hollow canyon]

Carno is more difficult to grow than the 8t croc

[vast fossil]

they literally call this a simulator survival the point of the game is more realism than balance

[dim radish]

No they don't

[vast fossil]

i agree with you but they're also much faster than all babies in came

[tacit oriole]

all you need to do is reduce big fish spawns in the hatching areas and deinos will get a lot harder to grow

[vast fossil]

game*8

[dim radish]

It's a Horror survival game, an accurate and realism dino game would be saurian

[tacit oriole]

the issue isn't so much that deinos are too safe in the water - they are, but by that logic ptera are too safe in the sky - the issue is that they have no food stress, either

or water stress

[hollow canyon]

It's not really about hatching areas - you're much better off growing Deinos in secluded parts of the map where you don't encounter anyone. You really want to stay away from the central river until you're fully grown.

Even besides that though - Deino is quite a capable animal from ~large juvenile onwards.

[vast fossil]

Dude thats every dino if you stay somewhere secluded but something that might make it harder for deinos to grow is increase waterways and spread out the fish spawns a little more making them have to move a little more to hunt

[hollow canyon]

Well the difference between Ptera and Deino is that the former has to get on land at certain points, meanwhile Deino is free to just chill in the water 24/7.

[tacit oriole]

Like where? The swamp? no food there. Anywhere you can survive as a baby, there are adult deino

[hollow canyon]

You can't grow Utahs/Carnos by being in a secluded area

You have to get food and with Dryo's unreliable spawns it's much harder to rely on it than on the fish.

Deinosuchus grows like a herbivore

while having the offensive capabilities of a carnivore

[hollow canyon]

I can let you know about a couple of spots on DM.

[tacit oriole]

I used to think arch river was safe... but it's only if you can get above the falls

NE near the ocean is also safe, but I died to an adult last time I tried to get there

[vast fossil]

there's only 1 spot deinos can sit to grow the way you say and its a croc pond, only when its defended by adults when its just babies most of them die from running carnos also has to be a good day or the adults will cannibalize you

[hollow canyon]

In my experience swamp is an awful place to grow in as a Deino - you put yourself at a great disadvantage and you might get really vulnerable it a pack of Deinos sits north of you. You won't be able to leave that place at all and as you've pointed out there's hardly any food there in my experience.

[tacit oriole]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying Aken - deino life is chill - but I think there is a place for that in The Isle

[hollow canyon]

Croc pond is awful to grow in as well

That's where I go when I want to hunt Deinos

[tacit oriole]

Croc pond is good when the vibe is good

[vast fossil]

I don't disagree that fish spawns should be a little more scarce but we dont have much else to go we have 3 rivers

[tacit oriole]

and the occasional stress from utahs and carnos is part of the fun

[hollow canyon]

You literally just get yourself stuck in an area where there's only one waterway which makes you vulnerable to other predators.

[tacit oriole]

to be clear: safe isn't fun. Herbivores down near the swamp are safe, but they aren't fun

[hollow canyon]

Safe isn't fun but it's reliable.

[tacit oriole]

So when I rage quit deino on NA1, it's because there are only 3 spawn locations, and all were too hot to survive

[hollow canyon]

I just watch some video/movie/study while growing a Deino, growing it afk is much better atm than growing it actively(although as I said it's not actually that bad at active growth either unlike Stego or Tenonto).

[tacit oriole]

if arch river and the ocean delta are meant to be croc hatchling areas, give them spawnpoints

[hollow canyon]

I never stay close to the spawn points - try leaving them asap and you will have a much better chance of making it to full adult

[vast fossil]

i honestly think deinos need a break to their bite or increase to 600 newtons not to be rude but when your mouth can fit a whole utah and it doesnt die in one bite its kinda dumb

[hollow canyon]

It is kinda dumb, I agree but balancewise Deino is already way too good

[tacit oriole]

Neither did I - first spawn at croc pond I spawned in the river and got immediately attacked and killed. Spawned in SE, swam north for 2 minutes, attacked and killed. Spawned mid and died before I got to shallows

Yes, I could of been more stealthy, but there's no green cover in the rivers

[hollow canyon]

this is more of a reason as to why Deino shouldn't have been increased to D.hatcheri size. They should've kept D.rugosus that we were supposed to get

[tacit oriole]

when I had all 3 spawnpoints on cooldown I quit

[hollow canyon]

But the community kept asking the devs for the largest Deino and this is what we've got - an 8t croc that performs like a 3-4t one.

Oh yea, getting immediately killed does happen

[tacit oriole]

My overall opinion is that safe, carni dinos have a place - ptera and deino both - and part of the horror survival aspect of The Isle is around how scary drinking can be

Deino make drinking scary, which is good

what isn't good is roaming bands of deino in the plains seemingly invincible when there aren't good players who know how to fight them

I don't think nerfing deinos is a good idea, but they need to be more food stressed like carnos and utahs are, while still being viable

Personally, I'd like to see most of the shallows removed along with the majority of the big elite fish spawns

put elite fish in the swamp for deinos who want to chill, leave schools for the babies and the ptera, and make sure there is enough opportunity for them to eat other dinos at the rivers

[oak wind]

Wait for a larger animal to destroy them on land like Fatcro or apexes.

[tacit oriole]

A lot of people, myself included, like playing deino not because ooga booga big scary apex predator but because there is the right mix of danger and safety and usually nice same-species community to hang out with and defend

[oak wind]

Also yeah it is sad that swamps are so unused by Deinos.

[tacit oriole]

I think breaks and diets will be a net nerf for deino - especially if leg breaks limit alt-bit mobility

I think what @hollow canyon said about Deino growing like a herbivore is actually strangely true... hanging out in croc pond as a deino is very much like hanging out down south in Legacy in trike herds used to be

except you are in a much more defined spot and a lot harder to kill

[versed rune]

@vale harness in regards to your suggestion, there is no reason to nerf carno’s drift because it literally has it to prevent it from feeling terrible to play like it did in legacy. Drifting also completely cancels the carno’s forward momentum so there isn’t really a problem there.

As for carno’s bite speed, realistically carnotaurus could likely have made quick strikes with its jaws, but I could agree to a slowdown IF and only if carno received some sort of secondary attack like a headswing or something in place of its alt bite, in order to make the playstyle more interesting and encourage the players to combo their attacks instead of left click to win. We can throw around ideas for how a headswing would function, I have a couple in the back of my head.

As for carno’s healing, it’s honestly pretty terrible in comparison to other dinosaurs. Healing the last 50% of your health as carno can take nearly an hour. I agree that carno shouldn’t have great healing simply due to it falling into a glass cannon/assassin niche, and being able to heal quickly with such incredible speed would be busted

[vale harness]

Fair, I agree, legacy carno was painful and not really too fun to play imo, even though I mained it for alot of the time. I don't wanna make carno fly forward, I just want it so it 'drifts' further forward, make it take a bit longer to stop after sprinting full speed, then turning and sprinting again. I feel like it would be sorta interesting to nerf the carno bite speed, and give it a new attack where it sorta short range charges forward a little bit, kinda using its head to push the attacker/defender back, not really stunning them, but maybe just holding them for enough time to bite. For the heal part, I meant mainly bleed heal/resistance, I'd like carno to have better running bleed resistance, but worse standing bleed resistance. It will still lose bleed while running, but compared to like a teno, it wouldn't increase as much. Then in return the teno has better bleed resistance while standing. Sorta makes it so carno should run and try to wallow if it's pounced by utahs. Not stand and fight

[somber bone]

Also we can’t just assume carno would destroy cera cera could just be made into a CC master and bully carnos that try to brawl against em

[tacit oriole]

Can someone explain where the whole carno head charge thing came from? I feel like they'd just snap their eyebrows off

(sorry for diverting the argument)

[slim dragon]

Genetic engineering

[vale harness]

wait wait wait, i gotta better idea. Instead of nerfing carno bite speed. Just make it so if it bites in quickly over and over its bite damage will be nerfed. First bite is max damage, then if it bites again as soon as it possibly can, its damage will get a 10% nerf, then 25% then 35-40%. Till it does basically nothing. It might be able to bite fast but it wouldn't really get much power or reset on the proceeding bites

[tacit oriole]

Or, have it like RPGs do damage over times

So you can strike heaps but it just reapplied the same DoT... Doesn't make much sense for realism tho

You /could/ make them bleed focused but that's already the utahs thing

[slim dragon]

You can have more than one playable that is bleed focused tho
Although the fact carno and Utah are the only two land predators might make them doubloons

[tacit oriole]

It feels natural to me that big stompy therapods have big chompy bites

[versed rune]

That sounds dangerously close to beasts of Bermuda territory and should not be explored for any dinosaur no matter the species

[tacit oriole]

I think carnos just need an alt-bitr tbh, maybe a stomp or something

They have the least interesting Moveset of any Dino bar the stego

[somber bone]

It has an alt bite it’s just slow and worse than the normal bite

[slim dragon]

Unlike Deino's

[tacit oriole]

Oh my bad, shoes how much I play carno I guess

Yeah deino are a bit weird that way

[slim dragon]

Their alt-bite just seems unfinished
No stam drain, no damage difference, no endlag (or cooldown)

[tacit oriole]

And it's cool down locked, not animation locked like every other bite just about

Like why can't normal bit spin curl you around?

Why does alt bites slow?

I get it has more movement interruption but yeah feels a little underdeveloped

What else a big deino gonna do tho

Chomp and ???

[slim dragon]

It could have a small tail slap

But I'm not sure it would be very useful

[vale harness]

I mean sorta, but it's similar sort of idea to teno doing different damage based on where it hits with its tail. Just for the carnos case. it would punish players that have no idea what they are doing and try to spam bite a dino to death.

[sinful cove]

Hard limits on a roster are an awful idea

It should just be harder to raise carnivores to adult and sustain large packs than it currently is, not force people to play something they don’t want to or switch servers

Imagine you had a carno already saved on a server but then can’t log in to play because the server has max amount of carnos on

[carmine charm]

i see that! But then what about the second part, about herbies?

maybe more people would play herbies?

[sinful cove]

Making herbi food harder to find just makes them even more boring, all they do is eat bush, and this will already happen with diets

Making them have to spend more time looking for a bush to hold e next to will not make people play them more

[carmine charm]

Hm, then i dont know. I want to play sometimes herbies, but the gameplay is too boring for me .

[vast fossil]

i couldnt agree more

[tacit oriole]

This, but balancing carnivores hunger is hard, because it's very dependent on things like the number of new players, what species people are playing, how clumped up people are, how hard it is to hide

Server population makes a huge part too, I've starved ro death as both carno and Utah on AU when there's been like 20 people, half of which are probably deino

[vast fossil]

you're still up dude

go to bed

[tacit oriole]

Just woke up haha

[vast fossil]

ttw

?

[tacit oriole]

TTW? Time to work?

[vast fossil]

we all know thats not what i meant

[tacit oriole]

[vast fossil]

TWWH2 <.<

[tacit oriole]

@ocean glade I agree with the problem as stated, but instead of ramps that carnos can't climb for some reason, I think letting utahs ledge climb or giving them a bit of air control would make more sense. Agreed that if you miss a running jump onto a ledge as a utah you are boned - hopping in place is so infuriating - but I think there are better tools than just making the terrain easier to navigate.

Or maybe air control is something that velos and other feathered raptors should get

[worldly venture]

@ocean glade good the little rat fuckers don't deserve a place to escape to

[ocean glade]

Yeah that would work aswell, just wrote the first thing that came to mind. But definitely needs to be addressed! 🙂

[hallow spire]

[ocean glade]

What I meant was not a single ramp but a ledge first so that Utahs can get up there with the jump

[tacit oriole]

There are a few good safe rocks that you can get with a single running leap

the really good ones need some parkour... but that's OK imo

I play a lot of Utah and I think they are in a good place in terms of escaping carnos

Remember that forests will be a lot harder to hunt in for carnos soon, and easier for utahs to escape into

[carmine charm]

I like the idea about reducing the amount of fish, but i would not remove completely the safe spots for drinks. But i can see that maybe the shallow river is a bit too long, it can be splitted into sections where the water deeper / shallow. Granting at least few chance to drink safe.

[brittle storm]

While playing as a deino you mostly see only the small critter newbies that dont satiate you much, or a group of stegos which will hunt you in most cases as soon as they notice you. The rest is mostly drinking on the safe spots so they dont need to fear an ambush. Atleast thats what i feel because i mostly feed on fish as a deino because i dont get to see much prey (on the east river atleast, because too many cannibals are in the center river the last few days)

[rare bluff]

[tacit oriole]

Jungle arches is ridiculous to, like 800m/yards of shallows with cliffs either side. Super safe for ptera and annoying af for deino commuting through

I've played a lot of Utah and not once been grabbed while drinking, I should be scared every time but it's just so easy to get around. Carnos guarding the shallows is a bigger threat

[tight dome]

@tacit oriole I agree Jungle Gully shouldn’t be as shallow as it is

[lament cloak]

@tacit oriole thats already in the game, though im not sure if its half stamina

[tacit oriole]

Yeah it is, after running for a certain amount of time - but I'm pretty sure it's local only and it stops as soon as you stop running (it's just a queue for the player)... I'd like to see it for combat related fatigue as well

a utah is hassling you and you can hear it panting - probably not going to pounce; stego panting - might be worth trying to wear it down and bait tail swipes; that sort of thing

[hearty vault]

trike must win facetank vs rex in evrima

or riot

[sinful cove]

Trike should leave the fight with well over half its hp if a rex walks up and tries to actually facetank it

[vagrant mural]

me walking away with half hp as a juvi trike factanking a full adult rex

[sinful cove]

Juvie trike should bust through rex like the goku and king piccolo fight

[tacit oriole]

Yo shoutout to the half dozen people who suggested pretty much every single one of my suggestions in #balance-feedback before I did... guess doing it again keeps it visible. I really thought I was being original for a moment there

[young nexus]

@crystal wharf Yeah, it makes absolutely no sense that a stego gets bit by a huge crocodile with enormous bite force so many times until it dies

[crystal wharf]

[young nexus]

Sorry, you didnt mean that?

[crystal wharf]

so you dont see the problem with the deino fucking running down the stego?

[crystal wharf]

deino bite force is more than fine
it needs multiple nerfs to most aspects

[young nexus]

I mean stego was very heavy

[crystal wharf]

and deino is heavier

[young nexus]

deino was heavy aswell but it could run fast for a short time

Modern crocodiles are very fast too

but they quickly get tired

[crystal wharf]

deino is heavier
and shouldnt be able to keep up with something like stego on land

[slim dragon]

I guess the problem is that deino dealt headshot damage with every bite

[crystal wharf]

modern crocodiles arent 8 ton behemoths

[young nexus]

Both stego and deino should get nerfed

Maybe deino should be slower but running would drain less stamina?

[alpine plover]

Something like a deino shouldn’t be chasing a stego on land. It’s a 8 ton alligator. It should have horrible endurance. I mean. It’s not great right now. but. Still

[crystal wharf]

stego needs buffs
it shouldnt be able to be solo'd by utahs

[young nexus]

Sorry man but stego needs a huge nerf in some aspects

[slim dragon]

If deino's bite wasn't able to phase through the entire body of a stego and hit its head, stego would just have been able to kill it

[young nexus]

Tail attack drains definetly not enough stamina

it should be from 10-15% each attack

[slim dragon]

I'd say its mistake was to try to run, but it would probably have died too if it tried to fight, and I agree it's not greeat
Even though it got ambushed

[slim dragon]

10% for a tail jab is waay too much
It was like that in the previous update, and it made stego borderline unviable

Its tail is its only way of defense

[young nexus]

Right, maybe then fix the hitboxes of tail?

u can get killed from 10 meters away

[crystal wharf]

what aspects?

[slim dragon]

Fix rubberbanding first, then see if the hitboxes are fine or not

[crystal wharf]

hmm, yes, the only way stego can defend itself, a slow ass attack you can easily avoid, make it drain all of its stamina too

[young nexus]

You can not easily avoid it, trust me 😂

it's broken as hell

[slim dragon]

If it was a hitbox problem getting killed from 10 meters away would be consistent and nobody would ever be able to dodge stego tail hits

[crystal wharf]

you main deino
of course you arent avoiding it

[young nexus]

Nah, i am not

I main utah

Stego is just too strong

[crystal wharf]

you obviously dont main utah very well

[young nexus]

It's either Agility, Defense or Strength

[crystal wharf]

because utah can solo stego

[slim dragon]

Stego has strength

[young nexus]

If the stego is noob, then sure

[crystal wharf]

@golden coral

[young nexus]

I watched a video where a guy killed solo stego

but he was just good

[golden coral]

What are you on about? Stego needs buffs, not nerfs.

[young nexus]

What buffs?

[golden coral]

More health, proper swing attack for smaller prey, and the jab for bigger, possibly a slightly better turn speed, and most importantly, an attack on the move.

Also, with 10% stamina drain, you'd have 10 attacks, we tried that in an earlier patch, not a good deal for stego at all. 5% is plenty enough.

[young nexus]

The only thing i would add, is killing small prey

[golden coral]

Especially since bite is hardly a proper alternative for an alt attack :p

[young nexus]

running and attacking would be overpowered

legacy already implemented this

[crystal wharf]

who said running?

[golden coral]

Walking/trotting would be fine, but even running would, stego isn't really fast. But how would it be OP anyway, stego is hardly OP in legacy :p

[young nexus]

yeah

walking is fine

[golden coral]

Trotting would be fine too, what do you imagine a stego is going to do, run you down? :p

As the video shows, not very likely ^^

[young nexus]

Stego should be more defensive than offensive tho

i mean attacking when walking isn't offensive

[golden coral]

IT's for a defensive moving retreat? :p IT's supposed to be a rearwards attack

Think like cama/pue perhaps

Not an attack you can reach to the sides, much less forwards with

So not the swing from legacy if thats what you're worried about

[young nexus]

swinging from legacy would ruin the game

they would never probably add it

anyways

it's hard to describe what buffs and nerfs should stego get

it's very detalic and i hope in devs to be creative

[silent harness]

maybe make it so biting the stegos tail doesn't damage the stego or even damages the attacker? I mean its a terrible point to attack what with the plates and thagomizer

[sinful cove]

Oh nooo if stego can attack while moving it might be able to hit you while you're trotting away because it's so fucking slow, so overpowered!

[oak wind]

The main problem I see is that this Stego sucks

[sinful cove]

Yeah they released it too early and shit on it and now it gets soloed by a dryo

[oak wind]

I mean

even the player

Stego is already in a bad position

but

[sinful cove]

Did the bot get you

[alpine plover]

Got sniped

[hollow canyon]

No modern crocodile runs as fast as Deinosuchus in the game

And they are much smaller than Deino, while getting slower the bigger they are. The "running speed" of the largest crocodile on earth atm is somewhere around 9-10km/h.

The fastest one - the Cuban crocodile can hop at a speed of around 20km/h

As for the suggestion that Stego's attack should drain 10-15% stamina - it's a terrible idea. During the previous patch Stego's stamina drain on its attack was 10% and it made the animal absolutely awful. I was soloing them with a Carno because of that.

[silent harness]

how many hits did it take to down a carno btw?

[hollow canyon]

From a Stego? 2

From a Deinosuchus it depends on what part of Carno you're hitting but it will be something between 3 and 5 most of the time.

[halcyon harness]

facts

[tacit oriole]

I think a tail swing while trotting could be balanced, especially with a bite nerf

Make it so their back end is super dangerous and let them pack up to survive

[sinful cove]

This mixpacking suggestion sounds very easy to exploit, mostly in favour of the predators

In fact, maybe entirely in favour of the predators

[tacit oriole]

Why do you say that?

As in, predators hassling herbis to make them debuffed?

Or just that it would be easy to avoid the effects of

[sinful cove]

Ok so if being near a predator for extended time gives you a debuff, with most herbis being slower than their predators, this can easily be exploited. A lone predator or a pair can follow an herbi around until the herbi is debuffed, then the pack can swoop in and take advantage of an animal that would usually be more of a challenge since only a couple pack members are debuffed. And if it debuffs your whole group, they could simply ungroup for the hunt to wear out the hebi

Yeah basically what you said

[tacit oriole]

I mean yeah, but that's sort of how our ancestors hunted, so it's not unrealistic... But it could be bad for gameplay

If you had lions circling you for days I doubt you'd be at your best either

[sinful cove]

Its a mechanic that shits on one faction, unfair and poor design

An easy exploit for low skill carnis to give a slow animal who cant run more of a disadvantage

[tacit oriole]

That's a fair criticism, I agree it's a janky suggestion... Hopefully it sparks a better idea in someone else

[sinful cove]

Mixpacking will be a huge challenge to fix probably, almost every suggestion for it is open to be exploited

[tacit oriole]

I think the whole no buffs from resting makes more sense

Would you sleep well if utahs were hunting you?

And if predators are that close you probably shouldn't be able to rest anyway

[boreal shoal]

yes

cause i know my life wouldn't be long so the suffering would stop.

[sinful cove]

The game shouldnt push more debuffs on you though, the actions if the predators swooping in if you try to rest are enough

[tacit oriole]

Fair. I don't want mixpacks to be stopped, I just want them on an even Playfield

[boreal shoal]

what

[novel tulip]

The only way to deal with mixpacking and overpacking is admins

Worked perfectly in legacy

[boreal shoal]

not really

[sinful cove]

Mixpacks should be stopped as much as they can but most hard mechanics that could be put in place would be exploitable or useless

[novel tulip]

^

[sinful cove]

Probably this

[boreal shoal]

admins r for griefing gosh

[tacit oriole]

Like I said in my suggestion though, there are legitimate reasons for mixpacks - I have a FG teno on AU, if a friend says yo I got a FG Utah on there, let's play without lag for a bit.... Am I supposed to suicide it?

Maybe... But that assumes I'm time rich enough to just keep growing new ones all the timr

[boreal shoal]

yes

[novel tulip]

If its a server with no mixpacking then don't mixpack

Simple

[tacit oriole]

Plus there are more changes coming which will make growing dinos even more investment

[sinful cove]

As long as the mixpacking isnt used against other players its one thing

[tacit oriole]

Official servers aren't and won't be anti-mixpack

[sinful cove]

They are a problem when used for combat, not when just hanging out

[tacit oriole]

Agreed, but there is no way to combat that directly imo. The only way I could come up with is debuffs which make survival harder

[sinful cove]

If it could somehow be done in a way that punished the faster members of the mixpack it could be harder to exploit with but that still would only be a small inconvenience for the large gain of a mixpack

[tacit oriole]

If we expect that every carnivore hunting a large herbivore will probably either kill them quickly or try to wear them down - carno vs stego comes to mind - you could add the debuff as suggested but then also buff them so they aren't too vulnerable

[sinful cove]

Carno shouldnt be touching stego

[tacit oriole]

Oh?

[sinful cove]

It can literally walk away it's a small game hunter

Also though now that i think of it

[tacit oriole]

Carnos atm are getting zoned out of forests where small prey live and pushed into plains where big stuff resides

[sinful cove]

The debuffs can screw over hunters who are supposed to take on larger games in long hunts

[tacit oriole]

Their charge isn't usable against small prey

[sinful cove]

But carno doesnt deserve any helpful against stego

[tacit oriole]

I don't see how they are supposed to be small game hunters

IRL sure... In TI idk

[sinful cove]

So debuffs for being near different species are generally a poor mechanic

Carno should be ambushing small animals with its charge, it does work but people dont use it a lot for some reason

[tacit oriole]

It turns too slow to hit any half decent small prey player though

[sinful cove]

It shouldnt be the fastest predator in the game + take on 5hr dinos

It should have an improved charge and reduced normal bite to make it a better ambusher when more small game comes

[tacit oriole]

Like call me noob, but when I was last playing carno in a big pack we had a dryo running around messing with us, it took a lot of effort to catch it - it for away half a dozen times and only died because it got unluxky

[sinful cove]

Diets will encourage many smalls to hand out in open areas

[tacit oriole]

Plus there just aren't enough small prey opportunities to keep a big carno fed

[sinful cove]

Mainly because of the small roster

There are shit tons of utahs though

Most of the utah packs collectively share about 5 brain cells

Easy pickings

[tacit oriole]

Utah vs carno is a good matchup, but saying carnos shouldn't take on bug prey while also having utahs capable of taking on anything is silly

[boreal shoal]

carno hunted most likely only with its m8

[sinful cove]

Not really, different preds are specialized for different prey

Not every pred should take on large prey

[tacit oriole]

Way easier to balance things around carnivores typically hunting things around their own size

[sinful cove]

Not really

Thats kinda boring

Pretty generic

[tacit oriole]

Maybe, but balancing a big roster is hard - travelling salesman problem

[sinful cove]

Its not awfully hard to make carno more specialized for small prey when the roster gets bigger

[tacit oriole]

The way I see it we will have 4 main areas - waterways, plains, light forest, and heavy forest/mountains

Just like IRL, big stuff will prefer plains where they can properly run and maneuver (and where there is enough feed), mid sized will prefer forests where they can get away from big stuff, and small thing will prefer deep forest and mountains where they can hide and escape

[sinful cove]

Not really

[boreal shoal]

not at all

[sinful cove]

Tigers are a large predator who prefer the forest

[boreal shoal]

someof the biggest predators dont use plains

bears

[tacit oriole]

Lions /tigers are mid sized at best, earth doesn't have real big predators anymore

Except in the ocean

[boreal shoal]

wtf?

this man......

[tacit oriole]

Compare a tiger to an elephant

[boreal shoal]

differenr continents...

[sinful cove]

Didnt rex live in forests

[tacit oriole]

Eurasia? Same continents my dude

You get elephants in Asia with tigers

[spare badger]

^

[tacit oriole]

There's even a famous video of a dude riding an elephant and getting attacked by a tiger

[spare badger]

Yea

I remember that one lol

[boreal shoal]

ok?

[tacit oriole]

Lions and tigers to me are like utahs, and carnos up don't have an equivalent

[boreal shoal]

what

n9

its more like dogs

they are packers

[spare badger]

What?

[boreal shoal]

no*

[spare badger]

He means in size

[tacit oriole]

Tigers cap out at like 300kg

[boreal shoal]

ew

[spare badger]

Utah's are polar bear size and weight

[boreal shoal]

imperial system

[spare badger]

Thats metric?

[tacit oriole]

[boreal shoal]

oops

[spare badger]

Wtf

[boreal shoal]

shhhh

im tired shhh

[tacit oriole]

Anyway tigers are like half Utah weight

Elephants are teno weight

[spare badger]

No

Really?

[tacit oriole]

Nope sorry got that wrong

[spare badger]

Elephant is 6 tons

6000kg

[tacit oriole]

4ton for Asian, up to 6 tons for african

[spare badger]

Ye

[tacit oriole]

So elephants are basically stegos without the tail

[spare badger]

Elephants are like stegos

Yea

[tacit oriole]

Lions and tigers almost never mess with them either

[spare badger]

And the largest carnivore is smaller than utah

It's kind of pathetic

[tacit oriole]

Oceans are a bit more JP-esq still

Orcas and sharks and stuff

[spare badger]

Wonder what would happen if like a sucho or Allo was in Africa

[boreal shoal]

idk

[spare badger]

Whales still dwarf them but orcas do hunt them

[boreal shoal]

jp?

[tacit oriole]

Jurassic Park

[boreal shoal]

disgusting

[tacit oriole]

Dolphins hunt great whites, too

[spare badger]

Orcas kill blue whales

[boreal shoal]

yeah

size dont matter

[tacit oriole]

At least in the ocean, it doesn't

Ain't no trees there

[boreal shoal]

everywhere

[spare badger]

Nah they only can cause they smort

[boreal shoal]

a wolverine will kill a moose

[tacit oriole]

That I'd like to see

[boreal shoal]

lmao

google it lol

[spare badger]

They kill polar bears

[boreal shoal]

what do?

[tacit oriole]

I am haha

[boreal shoal]

nicu

carno is a small game hunter though

its a bully

[tacit oriole]

TIL wolverines are a type of weasel

[boreal shoal]

yup

[spare badger]

An Allo or sucho or smth in Africa I'd like to see what would happen lol
Even Utah's in Africa would be a cool theoretical but that's besides the point

[boreal shoal]

and weasels kill rabbits by snapping bones and hypnotism

[tacit oriole]

So apparently wolverines have been documented as killing moose but they are largely scavengers and opportunistic hunters

Sounds like Utah to me

[boreal shoal]

creatures specialise in what they hunt

what

utah dont do that!?!?!?!?!

[spare badger]

Sounds like cera

[tacit oriole]

https://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/features/five-things-we-learned-about-wolverines

Yeah, maybe more cera

[boreal shoal]

cera was a sauropod hunter wasnt it?

[spare badger]

That's allo

Cera is too small

[tacit oriole]

I'm trying to remember the full name but google is just giving me Cera from Land Before Time

[stark knoll]

ceratosaurus?

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, that's it

Rex looking thing about Utah size

[boreal shoal]

......

[tacit oriole]

Are stegos

Ate*

[boreal shoal]

are you on something? or are you just like 12

[tacit oriole]

Or at least, gnawed on their corpses

[stark knoll]

i dont think cera ate stegos

[stark knoll]

calm down

[vagrant mural]

It’s definitely possible that Cera could have hunted smaller stegos but a full grown one had little to no predators

[tacit oriole]

Eats stego doesn't mean hunts stego though

[stark knoll]

i didnt realize they lived for so long

nearly 20 mil

[vagrant mural]

Yeah for some reason they outlasted allo, chads

[boreal shoal]

tbey arent that old lmao

[stark knoll]

they are, theyre quite basal afaik

[tacit oriole]

Cera were scavengers like some say Rex's were, I think?

Ate a lot of carrion

[vagrant mural]

Cera and rex like all carnis were most likely opportunistic

[tacit oriole]

I'm sure some were like modern day hyena, more comfortable stealing kills than making their own

[vagrant mural]

hyenas actually majorily eat their own kills, lions are more prone to stealing kills

[tacit oriole]

Aaaanyway back on topic, my guess is TI is going to zone carnivores in terrain based on their size, at least to start with - rock paper scissoring dinos is possible but seems way more challenging

[tacit oriole]

Maybe cheetahs are a more extreme comparison

I'm sure some small herbivores will end up in the plains, maybe hanging out with bigger ones for protection, but most will prefer increased cover and easier juking in forests unless food forces them out

[boreal shoal]

what

nah jungle

hiding in leaves

do you just like plains or something.....

[tacit oriole]

Well I prefer Utah and prefer the forests personally, but I don't make suggestions purely based on what benefits my preferred dinos and playstyles

[boreal shoal]

but ur only saying stuff should be in plains

[tacit oriole]

No, I'm saying that I'm expecting big dinos to be zoned into plains

And since carno currently falls under the category of "big dinos", I'm expecting them to be there as well, which means I'm expecting them to be able to hunt things like stego

Not small critters, unless the majority are AI or they get abnormal levels of food from them. Real players just aren't going to put up with being farmed by carnos and if they try to force particular herbis out into spots where they are easily killed then people just won't play those dinos

[slim dragon]

I'd say where a dino should go is more a matter of plyastyle and hunting strategy. Stego goes into the plains because it doesn't care if it's seen from afar since it can kill any attacker. Carno, despite its small size, also goes into plains because with its terrible manoeuvrability, it needs as few obstacles as possible between its prey and itself. Rex might very well be made to fit into jungles, with a playstyle focused around hiding and ambushing from the treeline.

Jungles in evrima aren't dense enough to prevent a rex-sized creature to go through them.

[tacit oriole]

Some parts of the current map, like the far north and north-east, would be very challenging for a rex to hunt in

apart from size they would be heard well before they could see what they were hunting

[slim dragon]

Not if they can walk silently, like every predator in the game

[vagrant mural]

Well as silent as an 8 ton predator can get

[tacit oriole]

I mean elephants move pretty quietly when they are walking. but quadraped and all that

2 legs gotta be harder to move smoothly on

[vagrant mural]

Ideally rex hunts in areas with enough foliage to successfully ambush in, and enough open space to not get hindered

[slim dragon]

It's more a matter of feet adaptation

[slim dragon]

Yeah that's what I'd imagine too

[vagrant mural]

which is why redwoods is the best option

[tacit oriole]

I feel like the current plains areas would be well suited to a rex, enough islands of cover to hide in and reasonably open runs to prety

but very luck based if something comes close enough

worse than deino hunting atm

[slim dragon]

Well Rex wouldn't fare that well in plains
It's not that good to hide and rex is not a runner

[vagrant mural]

The problem with Rex living in the plains is it’s most likely an ambush hunter

And stego can be spotted from far away, and rex is like 2 tons heavier and a decent amount taller than a stego

And most likely louder

[tacit oriole]

or someone who crashes extended fights between other dinos

utahs trying to wear down a stego and making heaps of noise as they do, rex could rock up and just finish people off

[vagrant mural]

I mean yeah it could crash fights, but I doubt anything would see or hear a rex and just chill out

And finish the fight or whatever

Also having it rely entirely on other predators doing the work for it sucks

[tacit oriole]

from my experience as a utah getting gatecrashed by carnos usually a bit to chaotic and noisy to see or hear them coming if they are smart

but yeah not exactly a thrilling apex experience

[vagrant mural]

The problem with comparing carno to rex for that niche tho

Is carno is 5 tons smaller and is the fastest dino in game

[slim dragon]

Excluding ptera

[vagrant mural]

I said dino, not playable

[tacit oriole]

ptera new apex

quetz 😮

[slim dragon]

If quetz is faster than ptera like many people expect, it might go over 80 km/h

[tacit oriole]

would be nice, especially if they are meant to play like big birds of prey or vultures, cruising around high up and taking opportunistic meals

I feel like the current engine wouldn't cope with that though

[slim dragon]

It would, but would need better optimization and network

[tacit oriole]

yeah it struggles a bit with high-speed ptera commuting already

[vagrant mural]

I went so fast as Ptera 1 time my game started shutting myself

[tacit oriole]

the new map might help that a bit, be a bit less busy

[vagrant mural]

I went from like 50 frames to 8

And if quetz is faster

[tacit oriole]

UE is a pretty capable engine, it should be possible to make it work

[worldly venture]

You heard

[umbral inlet]

Who else thinks Utah’s pounce is too linear like it’s on rails? Who else would like more of a gravity effect and a curved trajectory for the pounce?

[ocean wagon]

ehhh i like it how it is now, i just want them to add some sort of kick off so you dont die from landing a pounce

[tacit oriole]

The old pounce was like that, and you had to aim the camera way up to get good range.... It was janky af

[tacit oriole]

@sinful cove since you've been a pretty good bellwether for my ideas so far - and on of the few to offer constructive criticism - thought I'd run my scent system overhaul idea pas you and everyone else before I post it.

The three main things I'd like to see with scents is longer lasting trails, info on how old the trail is, and clearer species differentiation as the roster expands (it's not hard currently, but will be in the future).

The core idea is that trails should last up to 20min or si when sprinting, half that when trotting, and half that again when walking. Trails start out as they are now - bright yellow with the smoke effect, then fade so the smoke is no longer visible, then fade from yellow through grey and finally disappear

Same goes for when you push through bushes, it should leave markings behind

Each species should also have their own specific shade - the differences should be subtle, like the differences in footprints, but enough for experienced players to tell them apart

From a realism point of view I kinda think your own pack should be different again, most pack animals identify pack members by smell after all

It's be kinda neat if we could have a realism mode where you don't get nametags for pack members, but you still have the tools to readily identify them

[sinful cove]

more informative scent could be useful when there are so many future animals that some tracks would be near impossible to tell apart, I think the scent information could tie into the hygeine mechanic that was brought up a couple times by one of the devs, if this happens

where the less you take care of yourself, the more information your tracks give, this rewards players who take care of themselves by making their presence less obvious

[tacit oriole]

Hygiene? As on you will need to bathe in the river to minimise scent, and need to go to the toilet and all that?

[sinful cove]

something like that, yeah, i don't know if it is confirmed but it was mentioned by a dev

so it would be a nice thing that plays into scent, rewarding players who maintain themselves, punishes lazy players

[tacit oriole]

I'm guessing there is no intent to make dinos sweaty or any such thing

[sinful cove]

probably not, i dont think birds sweat do they

most mammals dont even sweat the way humans do

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, it's pretty rare, mostly big herbivores

[sinful cove]

probably more along the lines of filth buildup, mites, dried blood

things that can be removed via simple mechanics like wallowing, washing off in water, dustbathing and preening

[tacit oriole]

Human sweat glands are mostly devolved fur/hair follicles

[sinful cove]

human sweat glands are an adaption that aids in endurance hunting

[tacit oriole]

I wonder if wallowing should leave evidence behind, so if you are trying to track an old trail you can tell if they crossed or wallowed and possibly stayed the same side

[sinful cove]

it would be realistic, though it would kinda nullify the purpose of the mechanic which is helping you lose somebody who is chasing you

would be a bit unfair for low stamina animals

like carnos

[tacit oriole]

Mmm, as neat as it would be to have wallowed animals leaving a hard to follow trail of mud... Probably bad for balance

[sinful cove]

yeah it would serve immersion but kinda mess up one of the ability's main uses

[tacit oriole]

I'd like to see the pack scent cloud system expanded further to include non-packed groups and big fight scenes

Like if there was a lot of fresh blood spilt in an area you'd see a red scent cloud, even if there aren't any bodies yet

[sinful cove]

i think the scent cloud is for general overpacked gatherings even outside of packs, like it depended on the amount of dinos in an area. if it isn't, then yeah it should be

it would make mixpackers have a harder time

a large amount of bodies should also definitely produce a stronger scent that can be smelt from further away, as well as titanic bodies like hypers and brachios

[tacit oriole]

The issue I have with scent cloud is it only pops up of people are actually in a pack (2 call)

You can have as many as you like without that and no cloud

(I have no hard evidence of this, just observations)

[sinful cove]

perhaps ambient ai such as ravens can stir up a racket near large deposits of gore. the pack cloud should be changed to pop up if there is any sort of gathering in a small area, it only showing up for packed peopel really is wasting some of its potential as a mixpacker deterrent, even if it would only be a small inconvenience for them

i had heard it shows up with large gatherings and that it is only in packs, so im not sure either

[tacit oriole]

Ooohhhh, I like your idea of ambient critters

I play a fair bit of Hunt: Showdown and the NPCs are a big part of making stealth harder

[sinful cove]

As long as it doesnt screw over players out of their control its always nice to havw ambient ai activity

[tacit oriole]

Having Ravens finish off unattended corpses is also a better mechanic than despawning

[sinful cove]

If you hear crows or buzzards squawking around in the distance as well as the compy activity youll know something is up even without sniffing, would really add to the life of the island

[tacit oriole]

Gives some info for hungry scavengers too - if they rock up and there are Ravens picking at a corpses might be more inclined to have a go at it (even though it would make noise)

Yeah for sure, that's a great idea

I kinda don't want to make yet another post though, been kinda dominating that thread a little

Might hold off for a bit

[sinful cove]

The balance feedback channel is sort of dead compared to the normal feedback channel anyway, probably wouldn’t hurt lol more suggestions are nice regardless if the poster

[tacit oriole]

I'd love to see insects in the forests - not just for little insectivores, but for stealth aspects as well

Like grasshopper equivalents that you could scare up if you weren't being careful

Ive kinda come full circle on mixpacks... At first I hated then because I thought they were broken, but now I've played enough that I almost like when I find them, it makes things more interesting

[sinful cove]

Cricket ambience going quiet when larger animals walk past would be pretty spooky

[tacit oriole]

Hah... "It's quiet... Too quiet"

[sinful cove]

Perhaps animals not designed to live in densely vegetated areas could trigger the ai more, giving forest animals a bit of an advantage, some similar things for other biomes. Might be a bit weird to do tho

[tacit oriole]

Imagine sneaking through the forest as a Merc when suddenly all the ambient birds take off and all the insects suddenly go quiet

[sinful cove]

Would be creepy especially at night lol

[tacit oriole]

Another thought I had - would some sort of species based heat map be a good idea for the spawn screen?

Say you want to spawn a deino (or log in with an existing) and you see croc pond glowing with carnos... Might stop you getting insta-nommed

It might give away too much info though

Other games mitigate that by only giving you old info on those screens

[sinful cove]

exploiters are pretty determined and could probably use this warning system to find active areas , but idk. if it was simple to implement they could test the waters with such a mechanic

[tacit oriole]

I guess it depends on the level of fidelity. Knowing "there were utahs near centre 2 minutes ago" seems hard to exploit

[sinful cove]

if a random spawn priotirized low population areas without a preview of who is there it could help in a similar way

sort of like that bs they did in path of titans where it purposelly drops you in a dead spot, except in the isle it would be the player's decision if they want to be randomly dropped in a dead area

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, the random spawn was interesting but made it hard to pack up

I liked how it encouraged nesting though

[lament cloak]

@manic token edit that to make an actual suggestion, saying "buff utah" is not a suggestion

[hallow spire]

^

[spare badger]

If anything tehy should just change utahs punce slightly so it works.

[hallow spire]

Wym?

[spare badger]

Like so how Utah had the weird delay before it can Run after successfully landing a pounce. I feel bad when I can get a free kill on them

[tacit oriole]

I think that delay would be fine if the pounce was worth risking it

It is maybe a little too long, but the issue is mainly pouncing is a death sentence against FG teno, carno, stego

It's only really worth it for pinning small prey

[sinful cove]

Utahs who manage their stam and dismount voluntarily should be allowed to kick off for a safer landing

[tacit oriole]

Absolutely - got stam? safe dismount. No stam? ruh roh

Bucking should pause the slashing as the utah clings on and reduce both their stam

[tacit oriole]

Yup, sucho swamp should be teeming with life

Mid is tired and uninspired, it's a real shame that all the really cool bits of the map are out at the edges where nobody ever visits

[sinful cove]

I think a carno rework (nerfed bite and agility, buffed charge) can wait for pachy and galli to be in the game, but it should definitely happen

[worldly venture]

That's what I meant. Bruiser Carno is fine until we have more additions that generally challenge its playstyle or have a tough time when they shouldn't

[sinful cove]

Yeah with no other midtier passing dino intended to brawl in the game yet its fine for carno to multitask his role until more of his preferred prey is in or an actual bruiser is added

[worldly venture]

Cerato addition might be enough to think of changes

But that won't be for a little while most likely

[sinful cove]

I feel like cera won't be too far behind pachy but im probably wrong lol, guess it depends if they have any complex mechanics planned for him

[worldly venture]

Really, I'd think Galli, Cera and Maia would be good enough, maybe even more than enough

[worldly venture]

They said the devs wanted Beipi and Cera in after Pachy so maybe but knowing them they'll have changed their minds

[frosty heron]

I wouldnt touch Carno until Cera is on the game , otherwise we can make the current balance go into a worse situation

Tbh I think Deino needs balance first as a priority , that thing is busted Lol

[hollow canyon]

Any of the suggested changes for the Carno would make the animal borderline unplayable. I also have no idea where you're getting it being able to turn well from. It turns like a truck in Evrima and I believe it's one of the aspects that got nerfed about it between update 2 and 3.

You can run in circles around a Carno as some of the smaller animals like Utah or Dryo.

Overall it's probably one of the few well balanced animals currently with clear weaknesses and strengths.

[foggy oyster]

I think the Utah pounce is way to weak
Maybe i dont know how the mechanic works komplett
But for my its way to weak and not usable u can only use it on smaller dinos or for finisher but everything bigger than the Utah can press E and free hit the utah afterwards for example the stego

[umbral inlet]

Aim and pounce trajectory are different tho. Looking at the target, pouncing, that should land you on whatever ur aiming at. But the actual pounce trajectory should have some gravity and curve to it, where the game itself calculates the right curve for the pounce depending on where ur looking.

[umbral inlet]

That’s why dismounting while you still have stamina needs to execute a leap clear function to jump out of range.

[true sonnet]

But how would a stego defend itsell against a group of utah then?

[foggy oyster]

for example but that makes it maybe to strong i think the pounce is a mechanic that can be only to strong ore not usable

[hollow canyon]

Well it's at the very least extremely situational but at the same time it's really powerful. You only need to pounce another animal for a relatively short time to put a lethal amount of bleed on it. Tbh if it wasn't for the change to the hitboxes Utah would've very likely been more powerful atm than it was during the early days of update 2.

[foggy oyster]

But even when the utah dismount
He is a free kill for a stego
or a free hit for an other dino

[hollow canyon]

Yes that's due to the change to how the locational damage works in the game, this dismount was always a thing but it hadn't been a problem until the first hotfix after update 3 got released.

[spare badger]

@fair niche ask in the isle discussion channel

[fair niche]

all good i hope i got it now thanks to one of the devs

[tacit oriole]

I think if a single stego is getting attacked by a pack of utahs, it should be under threat. 1v5 shouldn't be easy...

If it's 2+ stegos or stego/teno groups utahs are not a threat anyway, and herbivores are meant to work in small groups or herds

[spare badger]

Teno claw is very effective against utahs

[tacit oriole]

Tenos are a really well designed all rounder imo

[spare badger]

Yea

They should get a faster health regen then most to promote their brawler playstyles

Rn they have trouble cause groups of carnos wreck them
Carno has too much DPS imo
Needs more endlag

[tacit oriole]

Be neat to see rarer herbi superfoods which give buffs to healing and the life

I'd still like to see herbivores able to rarely eat small amounts of meat to give dietary buffs

Maybe have things like salt licks around for them

Make it all a bit more intricate and interesting

[tacit oriole]

Fractures will make carno brawling a bit harder I think

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto doesn't need any buff to anything atm. If anything the animal might be too good.

Tenonto vs Carno is a 50/50 match up that can end up in the death of either of the two upon making the slightest mistake there. Tenonto definitely doesn't need any help there.

It is true that groups of Carnos wreck single Tenontos but that's simply down to the popularity of Carno

[tacit oriole]

Tenos don't scale up like carnos do though

[hollow canyon]

They absolutely do

[tacit oriole]

1v1 sure, it's 50/50... 5v5 though

[spare badger]

I completely forgot teno is getting fractures

[tacit oriole]

Carnos will usually win

[hollow canyon]

If a single Tenonto lands a hit on you and they are in a herd you're not getting out of that stun alive

[tacit oriole]

If you have carno buddies it's a lot harder to get stunlocked by tenos, unless they are bad

[hollow canyon]

You don't have to get stunlocked at all

[tacit oriole]

Most tenos herds end up hitting each other as much as their tatgets

[hollow canyon]

a single stun is enough to kill you if you have more than 1 Tenonto focusing you

you should die every single time unless they mess up badly

I remember a video from Mr.Dbear from the very beginning of update 2 and from what I recall even back then Tenontos were doing better the more of them were involved in a fight and ever since then Carno got rather weaker

[tacit oriole]

Not saying you are wrong, but my personal experience of group carni vs teno was carnos won fairly decisively

[hollow canyon]

Might be down to skill

[tacit oriole]

Probably

[hollow canyon]

it's hard to say because it's circumstantial evidence

[tacit oriole]

Carno charge stuns are nothing to be sniffed at either

[hollow canyon]

In most cases you will have more Carnos than Tenontos in any fight simply because they are far more popular

that doesn't mean Tenonto is weak though, it's anything but that

And yes Carno's charge is a powerful tool in this match up but honestly I found it rather easy to avoid whenever I've faced a Carno

[tacit oriole]

Big teno groups tend to disperse quicker too, or end up fighting Deino

[hollow canyon]

admittedly it might be harder to do in a group fight but I've never gotten into any herd as a Tenonto so I either have experience of 1v1 against Carnos or 1v3+

First case has always been relatively easy while the latter one ended in a rather predictable way too

i.e. with me dying very quickly

[tacit oriole]

What I've noticed with teno group fights is most seem to be a bit passive, or struggle with positioning - trying to bait a single carno into moving into a tailslam and not watching their front quarters

So you can usually focus them down while the other group members keep the other tenos busy

Then once a couple are dead the rest clear off and fights over

[hollow canyon]

That's a fair point, I think Tenontos perform far better when they are a more coordinated group using voice chat

communicating via text in the game definitely puts a dent on their ability to outgun Carnos in a straight fight

[tacit oriole]

Is really like to see some proper coordinated teno fights to see what they are really capable of

But...

[hollow canyon]

You'd probably have to watch some streamers

[tacit oriole]

Add some stegos onto a teno herd

[hollow canyon]

Stego + Tenonto shouldn't even be a thing

[tacit oriole]

Everything changes real quick

[hollow canyon]

Mixherding isn't any better than mixpacking

[tacit oriole]

Saw a 2 stego 5 teno herd last night, it was a force to be reckoned eith

[hollow canyon]

It is because it's a mixherd - Tenonto's hard crowd control coupled with Stego's firepower is just a combination that takes out all the carnivores aside from perhaps Deinos

[tacit oriole]

Stegos being stegos they ended up playing bait the deino but they demolished a carno group in mid

[hollow canyon]

I've fought such mixherds a couple of times over the last few days and the only thing you can do is pretty much retreat

[golden coral]

@hard bridge Why?

[hard bridge]

why what? disable land dino swimming attacks?

[tacit oriole]

I'm on the fence about mixherds... It's not unrealistic (IRL herbivores do group up and move together) but it's also a little broken... Diet changes are meant to address that though

[hollow canyon]

Yes, why disable the attacks of the terrestrial animals while they are swimming?

Deino is already way too good, it doesn't need any additional help

[golden coral]

Well yes, since that was your feedback. I'm curious as to why you'd want that. Stegos main attack is disabled, as is tenontos. They can only bite, like the others.

[hard bridge]

cuz deinos keep getting killed by a armys of raptors and we can't even hide underwater in the pond

[tacit oriole]

Then leave the pond...

[golden coral]

Keep in mind to separate between "tolerance" and active cooperation between herbis.

[tacit oriole]

Deinos don't own the pond, it's a spawn for lots of species

[golden coral]

Yeah, that's an issue with you choosing the wrong spot to try and live, the pond is a deathtrap

[hollow canyon]

^

You just don't grow in that area if you know what you're doing

[golden coral]

You never stay there, not as kid, not as grown, because carnos or a stego squad will lock you down there

[tacit oriole]

If you can't recruit a couple of overpowered FG deinos to defend pond then there is a ton of river to safely afk in

[hollow canyon]

Raptors are like the least of your problems, imagine what will happen if a bunch of Deino cannibals just roll over into that area and sit in the river - they will just wipe you and you have nowhere to go from there

[tacit oriole]

I recommend arch river for growing

[hard bridge]

where is that?

the arch river

[tacit oriole]

Go from mid through croc cave, then right to get above the waterfall

[hollow canyon]

Do you know the central river that travels northwards from the pocked pool that you just spoke about?

[hard bridge]

thanks for the tip

[hollow canyon]

There's a cave on the left side

You swim into that cave, then go on shore, travel to the left at the exit and you get to a river there

[golden coral]

@hard bridgeYou have a map in DM now. Look at that and figure things out :)

[tacit oriole]

https://vulnona.com/game/the_isle/

[hard bridge]

ok thanks guys this really helps x)

[hollow canyon]

Deino is currently completely overpowered and really doesn't need any help, trust us on this

[tacit oriole]

West side, about half way up between the south crossing and croc island

[hollow canyon]

you can grow it very easily if you know where to do it and how to act

[golden coral]

Plenty of areas to be in, the pond is one of the worst spots. Ends of the rivers tend to have fish so try that. Bit of a swim but you should be okay.

[hollow canyon]

When fully grown only other Deinos are a threat to you really

[true sonnet]

If they add a jump for stam to get away safely after pounce you can kill a steg with 3 adult utah’s with no danger at all if you do it right.

[hollow canyon]

Unless you decide to take a stroll on land and bump into a really large pack of Carnos or more than 1 Stego

[golden coral]

Should take at least 6-7 utahs to pose a threat to a stego, imagine 5 utahs posing a threat to a trike or rex :p

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, Steg needs a rework imo

Jab is too slow

Like it's strong but too easy for good carnos and utahs to avoid

[golden coral]

Quick jab is fine, but the camera thing is iffy :p

Can we have alts like tenonto please!

[hollow canyon]

Carnos aren't good vs Stego at all on the current patch, Agouti

Utahs can still kill them rather easily but Carnos are like the worst animal you could use to hunt Stegos

[tacit oriole]

I'd like to see them able to do quick, low damage swings or slow, high damage ones, like light/heavy attacks in fighting games

[true sonnet]

The main problem i see with a safe jump for stam is that you can rotate between 43 utha on to keep him walking one to recover stam and one to do a pounce and if you get a free jump there is nothing the steg can do

3 utah

Not 43

[golden coral]

Currently with the "slot pounce", yeah that'd be hard to deal with

Since you can still pounce the face and get on safely I think?

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, but that's kinda how Utah are meant to work... You could balance Stam usage and bleed damage around a safer pounce, but atm it's only useful against noobs

[golden coral]

Utahs should not be punished for landing a pounce, but getting on might need to be slightly more difficult

So remove the automatic slot, make it punishable if you land wrong, and give a kickoff if you have stamina, otherwise normal dismount (could extend the range on that one a little though so it only gets base of tail hits).

[true sonnet]

Whats utah pounce slot never heard of that

[hollow canyon]

Basically - whenever you pounce an animal as a Utah the game re-aligns you and positions you correctly on its side no matter which body-part you've pounced.

[true sonnet]

Ok ty

[hollow canyon]

This hasn't always been a thing I believe pre-update 1 you would absolutely fall flat on your face if you decided to pounce the tail of a Tenonto as you simply cannot latch onto the tip of its tail.

[tacit oriole]

Making pounce so you actually have to hit the flanks would be a good balance change, but I worry about how many utahs will get lost to lag spikes

[hard bridge]

btw have u guys noticed server swipe and ur dino just gets deleted?

[tacit oriole]

Wipes are rare and yes that happens

Resets there is a bug where occasionally you spawn with the wrong Dino (a baby)

You just need to relog and you get your Dino back

[true sonnet]

But even is auto slot is removed how does this fix the 3 utah problem?

[tacit oriole]

Balance bleed and Stam usage so it takes them longer

But tenos and stegos shouldn't really be solo anyway

[golden coral]

Because now the utahs will have to aim for a specific spot or two, making it easier to defend, and catch them when they try to get on. And if they miss, they could get the same as when they hit a tree and go on their ass.

[tacit oriole]

You can't balance them around solo play without making them overpowered in groups

[golden coral]

You can and should balance everything on solo play

You do not balance for groups

[true sonnet]

Yea that i get but missing a steg is pretty hard

[golden coral]

And stego should at most come in duos, they're large animals

Not exactly a social animal, any more than trike or anky

[tacit oriole]

If you have bright ideas for making them viable 1v4 without being unkillable 3v5 by all means

But I personally don't think it's possible

[golden coral]

In any case, you can't balance around groups, because if you do, then the solo animal will suck, which means no one will play it, which means you won't get groups except for the potential outside group/streamer maybe

It's simple, you don't hunt two of them

You don't hunt two rexes as a utah pack

[tacit oriole]

There are different dinos which are good solo

[true sonnet]

The biggest problem is see with the safe jump is that the steg cant do anything

[golden coral]

You look for the solo ones

[tacit oriole]

Herbivores are designed to herd, always have been

[golden coral]

Utah is a pack hunter, it means it takes a group to take on a large solo animal, say 8 utahs for the large animals. If said animals are paired, you don't hunt them. Same with how a troodon group does not hunt a large animal at all.

Yeah no, that's not how you do balance, and most of the carnis pack as well

And honestly, big herbis don't really herd, trike or anky seem far more solitary or pairs than big herds

[tacit oriole]

You literally just said utahs should be balanced around group play but are then trying to say that herbivores shouldn't?

[true sonnet]

I dont mind if a pack wins but if you can fight someone without any danger at all that overpowerd

[golden coral]

Otherwise, imagine how you'd have to balance a shant then, assuming they come in 5+ herds, how do you balance that vs two rexes?

You can't, without making a solo shant suck, which means no one will play it

[tacit oriole]

Diet balances which herbivores can reliably herd and how big those can get, just like carnivore hunger

Big carno groups always disperse due to hunger sooner or later

[golden coral]

But you just said they herd

Implying you are supposed to be able to have a fair few herbis, even with said diet limits

So how do you balance 3 shants vs one rex then?

[tacit oriole]

Yes, all the current roster does - if there is a particular herbivores which shouldn't (shan't) then that can be controlled through diet

[golden coral]

So then you're saying some herbivores shouldn't herd then? :p

[tacit oriole]

At this exact point, no, later, maybe

[golden coral]

Which was my point earlier, stego comes in pairs, like the other large animals should, rex, trike, giga, what have you

But even so, a pair of rexes would not be under threat by a utah pack

Nor would a pair of any of the other large animals, you'll have to hunt the solo ones, or find other prey, plenty of other things too after all

Just like you hunt certain things when you're solo vs in a pack

[tacit oriole]

A good Utah pack with a fixed pounce will be a threat to just about anything

Just need more time and more skill

[golden coral]

Look, Dondi has said it would take 20 utahs for one rex

And half the pack would still die