balance-feedback-discussion

[fathom obsidian]

btw im done with you

[alpine plover]

I just explained how

scroll up

[proper zephyr]

so uh, Deinosuchus balance

[silent comet]

i dont remember me being mean towards you, just trying to explain you that it doesnt work how you describe it

[alpine plover]

is fine

[alpine plover]

I wasn't talking to you

[proper zephyr]

I use to side with increasing deino biteforce but now I’m opposed to it

[alpine plover]

because it isnt needed

People only wanted it because everyone sucked at deino before

[alpine plover]

I'm watching a video of utahs pack hunting a stego right now, they have plenty of time to jump off

and run

[silent comet]

cuz the stego didnt know about tail slamming after dismount

[alpine plover]

add the utahs other pack members not just sitting there and actively distracting the stego it seems fine

[silent comet]

if the stego would know then the pouncing utah would be dead

[fathom obsidian]

btw im sorry that i was mean you are right on that

[golden coral]

@fathom obsidianThe dismount needs some help, no doubt about that. But stego also needs some help to make the matchup better if the utahs can dismount safely, so there is that.

[alpine plover]

Just use your 8 other pack remember to actually do something in the fight

Pouncing resets buck

[fathom obsidian]

yeah i agree no one wants easy kills

[alpine plover]

I'm not saying that if its a issue it shouldnt be fixed, just saying that it doesnt seem to exist

but if it does, they should fix it.

[silent comet]

stego vs utah is most fun encounter for both sides atm probably, would be bad if stego would be a easy kill to utahs but it also sucks that utahs cant pounce it atm

[proper zephyr]

frankly I’m surprised how well balanced deino’s been since release

I thought it would break everything

[golden coral]

It's strange that the pounce is not the best alternative, but the issue otherwise is that the utahs will just cycle the pounce and the stego can't do anything.

Stego isn't like tenno or carno, you can't really make the utahs miss their pounce and punish them, and while you can catch them pouncing, that's more random ass luck than any skill really, especially if they just pounce the front.

So while it sucks to get taken out during dismount, safe dismount isn't perfect either.

[silent comet]

he can, by using trees and utahs kickback will probably cost some stamina so it wont be op

[golden coral]

At least right now it does mean you need an actual pack but.

Nah, trees or bucking make no difference in the situation. And kickback costing stamina makes no difference either.

It's a stego, it can't run you down. You're safe the entire time, unlike carno or possibly tenno. At least unless you stay in open visual range the entire time, which.. would be bad planning.

[silent comet]

you still can kill stego in 1v1 by biting it

[golden coral]

I know, and that's stupid in it's own way :p

Just saying that making dismount safe isn't a perfect solution, it brings it's own issues.

[silent comet]

i mean the utah cant make a single mistake cuz itll die

[golden coral]

True, but making a mistake is very hard to do.

Not that a solo utah should be able to kill a stego unless the stego is afk but, well, that is a different issue so.

[silent comet]

if stego is patient then its very easy

anyway, getting back to the point i hope that the kickback mechanic wont make utahs easily 1v1ing stegos tho

[dim crown]

Theres a big difference from group/pack/herd/flock fights/hunts and solo... Either on 1v1s or 1vmore than 1.

#EVRIMAnotLEGACY

[zenith vessel]

People literally down voting it most likely so they can kill utahs easily and its just stupid

[dim crown]

[grand carbon]

Question, What is the downside of the successful pounce people keep mentioning

When I play utah I dont see any issue of when I dismount outside of the ocassional desync death

Ive not had many issues with bucking, sure its somewhat quick but if you are in a pack bucking isnt really much of an issue and hell can make the animal run outa stam faster making the kill easier

And I think solo utahs have enough common sense to not use pounce as their main hunting tool

yes

[zenith vessel]

nope its not that, its if you dismount for example a stego it can wait for you to get off and then hit you getting a free hit or killing you, and the bucking thats because bucking can get you off after 2 and maybe even 1 buck, there is also a glitch were the utah will glitch into your model and it can stop you from running so you cant get to a tree almost like something is blocking you.

and that is why utah pounce needs fixed

[dim crown]

Dryo main best main

Pounce is like a 2edged sword, risk it 4 the biscuit.

[zenith vessel]

your supposed to pounce stuff to bleed them you shouldnt have to drain all stam just to pounce someone, if that player makes a mistake and leaves themselves open i shouldnt be punished by trying to dismount after a pounce

[dim crown]

#EVRIMAnotLEGACY

Yup, pretty much

[zenith vessel]

its not tho as they have trees and bucking

[dim crown]

Relative

[fathom obsidian]

buck?

[dim crown]

Pizza?

[fathom obsidian]

you guys talks like pounce has no couterplay. pressing E is a thing

[zenith vessel]

bucking basically gets you a free kill and dismounting gets you a free kill

[dim crown]

Wrong and wrong.

[zenith vessel]

Why are you here?

[dim crown]

All good bruh

[fathom obsidian]

ppl complain its too quick, and thats a right complaint

[zenith vessel]

trying to discuss this and you are just butting in for no reason

[fathom obsidian]

tf is wrong with you?

[zenith vessel]

they are just here to feel included dont worry about it

[silent comet]

Im 99% sure that if u pounce a animal then he still regens stam, so he can still hit u or tailslam u if a stego

[zenith vessel]

Yes exactly

3 secs!

[dim crown]

Your 🧂 is seasoning for my sauce.

[silent comet]

If the sword has a curve and points 2 edges at the utah player then yes.

[grand carbon]

This only occurs due to how you time the press of a sprint button. If you press it at any moment before the dismounted animation completes you dont sprint, but if you time it right after it ends you run properly

[dim crown]

Stomach.

[dim crown]

[zenith vessel]

true true but what about a kickback as some have said?

[grand carbon]

I think that can function as a perk

[zenith vessel]

that is very short time is it not?

[fathom obsidian]

i wish it gave utah 3 sec of pounce, rn you have to jump off after 1.5 ~

3 sec could be fine

[golden coral]

I believe that if you got more critters on at the same time, you drain less stamina from a buck, and the one bucking loses more. So there is that.

[grand carbon]

the time for pounce atm is fine

you can still effectively kill things using pounce

It just takes longer

[golden coral]

You might want to try how long a pounce last if you get two/four utahs on, and see how effective that is.

[grand carbon]

Yes that as well

[zenith vessel]

you dont think it should be more? they wont get any bleed done in that time realistically

[fathom obsidian]

i did that in my test server

[silent comet]

Dont forget that the "pray" can move and he can run to a tree or buck

[fathom obsidian]

the main problem pounce has is the 0.5sec animation lock when you dismount

[zenith vessel]

they regain stam when you have pounced them so hello?

[golden coral]

And? Difference between one utah and four on a stego?

[zenith vessel]

also if you have to drain its stam stego would be unkillable as you would need to bait with bites and go in with bites which is so risky

[dim crown]

Pouncing is more than clicking buttons&animations&stats theres much more to it.

[grand carbon]

You should as applying bleed is the best way to make their stam lower and stay low for extended time

Just need to be more careful

[fathom obsidian]

btw i feel like im wasting my time here, i did every testing possible before coming to an opinion yet ppl here talks from the butt, i never even asked for pounce buffs or easy kills cuz i hate that

[dim crown]

Theres Other Shenanigans

[zenith vessel]

it just needs a little fixing

[golden coral]

Also, stego can only swing about 10 times now. You don't need to bait that much apparently.

[fathom obsidian]

i like utah to stay challenging

[silent comet]

While playing against decent stego and teno players i have yet never encountered that one of them has no stamina left, only in situations where he was low hp or sure that he will die and try to run for it

[golden coral]

Anyway, if you tested Soad, what's the difference in stamina drain for bucker/bucked with 1 vs 2, 3, and 4 on a stego?

[fathom obsidian]

if a stego get baited 10 times hes kinda trash

[dim crown]

Is this Troo'don mess with me?!? Really!?!

[golden coral]

Even so, just a few baits and it'll be low on stamina was my point. Besides, utahs can easily bait. Stego has very little, if any way at all, when it comes to pressuring opponents.

[fathom obsidian]

if a stego buck 1 pounce he lose 5% stam if he bucks 4 he goes to 86%

[grand carbon]

Iirc it was 71% for 4 pouncers

[silent comet]

Going for bites is the only viable thing atm

[grand carbon]

and 3 was 86%

[fathom obsidian]

maybe but that test is done with raptor fallings

mine with raptors releasing

[golden coral]

So a nice difference then. How long can the raptors stay on in the different scenarios?

[dim crown]

After those 10 baits, stego poops.💩

[fathom obsidian]

the same

[silent comet]

A good herbi player wont be baited easily

And its not about baiting others, its about balance

[golden coral]

There's no difference in how fast the utahs lose stamina if there's more of them on?

[dim crown]

I love a good challenge.

[fathom obsidian]

no difference

[golden coral]

If only. Honestly, most of the time you should fail every other hunt, but I doubt the carnis would like that :p

[fathom obsidian]

also its only stego who can get 4 pounce

[dim crown]

COME PLAY IT !!!

[golden coral]

No, tired of the game.

[silent comet]

I agree with that, stego should be hard to kill considering the time needed to grow it

[fathom obsidian]

teno has 1 problem, teno buck last 3 sec only

[silent comet]

Teno is probably the easist target for a solo utah atleast for me

[golden coral]

@fathom obsidianNvm me on the "should lose stamina slower", that was apparently not in the patch/log, so it's only the bucker needing more stamina to get more off them off. Though I could have sworn I saw someone say it also drains less stamina to stay on, but I guess they were wrong. But at least it does cost the bucker more stamina with more on them on, which would help, especially since stego and tenno now can't use their best/main attacks that many times.

[silent comet]

I ask myself the same question

[dim crown]

Debatable, i like it.

Perfect.

[fathom obsidian]

yeah it costs a bit more stam but not that much

[silent comet]

Good teno players mostly run in packs what u dont mess with if alone as utah thats mby why

[golden coral]

I'd say if you end up at 70% that's 2-3 attacks. That's a noticable difference.

[fathom obsidian]

rumo whats your name in scope or dbear chat?

[golden coral]

So could be 1-4 attacks less, that's less baiting needed and less room for errors in general or movement that the target has. It would be worth it to make sure you always get as many on as the target allows.

[fathom obsidian]

btw just to clear things i dont think utah is in a bad spot, i just think pounce is weak and not that effective for the risk now

carno is supposed to trash utahs tho

[golden coral]

And we're getting pachy.. :p

[zenith vessel]

obviously it is a big predator

[silent comet]

Carno overpopulation is the problem and overpacking. 3 carnos can pretty much shit on 8 utahs, not even talking about groups of 10 carnos what is a common thing

[golden coral]

Utahs do lack some good prey, we need a maia or para or something. Maybe ava or diablo or something.

[zenith vessel]

because carno is better

[hollow canyon]

Utahs have Tenonto to hunt

[fathom obsidian]

i play utah bc its challenging and fun, carno for me is not fun, just spamming left click is dumb

[hollow canyon]

I've got no idea why Maia or Para would be better targets than Tenonto.

[zenith vessel]

i mean yeah and the charge isnt that good and it just drains stam

[fathom obsidian]

yeah wish they were more fun to play

[golden coral]

Not if they do maia, and para correctly. A para should not be huntable for carnos, it's.. big. Carnos should barely be hunting tennos and other carnos, a para is something even an allo might want a packmate to deal with.. :p

[silent comet]

The charge can be actually good if u ambush

[fathom obsidian]

carno playstyle feels a bit like legacy

[golden coral]

Because Tenno is designed as a fighter, maia and para are not?

[zenith vessel]

yeah but utah will just move out of the way and you need a decent run up

[hollow canyon]

They are much bigger and far more threatening animals than Tenonto. Maia is twice bigger and Para is however many times bigger. I have no idea why Utah should have a better time against them than against Tenonto.

[golden coral]

Maia should not be the "run down shit" it is in legacy to be sure. And para, while big and can run shit over, is still more open to pounces and less capable in general of fighting back, unlike tenno with all its attacks.

[hollow canyon]

If you make Maia and Para worse than Tenonto in terms of their combat abilities then I have no idea why anyone would ever want to pick them over Tenonto.

[golden coral]

I doubt paras will be that vunerable if they go with the big one. And if so, then that's an issue with the carno. It should not be good at hunting things it's own size, much less bigger.

[zenith vessel]

carno should most definitely be hunting tenos and maybe maia but teno yes para no, i have also killed crocs and stego as carno so it kinda rules the servers rn

[silent comet]

If u take ur headphones off then not, talking from the experience hah. But for real if carno gets in a bush near food or water and someone gets close then carno will most likely ram him

[golden coral]

Yes but you don't give it a useful frontal attack, and problem is solved :p

[zenith vessel]

yeah true baiting is always a tactic

[golden coral]

Because they'd have other advantages maybe, other mechanics and niches someone would like. The game is survival, not PvP, do remember that :p

[zenith vessel]

i have charged a utah before but only when they were sitting down and they almost got out of the way

[golden coral]

Hopefully not, it's a terrible design choice, as we see in legacy :p

[hollow canyon]

What mechanics and niches would you want Maia and Para to have? Para can honk I guess but I don't see that as good enough of a reason for people to play it.

[silent comet]

Carno can counter anything even stegos cuz theres groups of atleast 8 carnos most of the time and carnos have no counter at all, they can always run away if low. Only carnos can kill carnos in a fight

[golden coral]

I have no idea to be honest, I played para because I like how it looks and sounds, that's about it. But para, and maia, I see more as these things that runs over stuff to escape. Maybe sort of like carno but instead of staying to fight, you knock em over and keep moving to get out. Trample and all that.

[zenith vessel]

i killed a stego with 3 carnos

[hollow canyon]

Deino can kill Carno pretty decently. Tenonto can kill a Carno as well - it just needs to have equal numbers.

[golden coral]

But I mean, people play dryo and ptera despite not much combat abilities (in theory at least) and I'm sure there'll be other things too, more focused on running than fighting. Like how dryo should be.. :p

[zenith vessel]

i mean look at herrera it will be eating ants nests and bird eggs most of its life and when its big enough small sub adult dinos

[silent comet]

If carno is low he will run, if he wants to suicide then keep fighting. If teno gets low he cant run from a carno

[golden coral]

Yes clearly, that's what it's designed to do! :p

[hollow canyon]

They do? I haven't seen a single player Dryo since open beta.

[zenith vessel]

neither

just ai

[golden coral]

Well people played dryo back then, and that was with a weaker dryo I think? :p And I know people who want to play, if the game actually had gameplay.. so there is that.

[hollow canyon]

Ptera isn't too bad pvp wise

[zenith vessel]

i rarely see teno either, its all utah,carno and croc

[golden coral]

I just don't think combat viability is the only reason people choose something

[zenith vessel]

well its just a speedy boi

[golden coral]

At least not if the game is designed properly

[fathom obsidian]

ptera super fun at harrassing

[golden coral]

It might hold true for now, because what else but combat is there.. :p

[hollow canyon]

I've seen a group of Dryos once in the legacy but I think that was just a group of friends playing it for the memes. It's a creature that barely ever gets touched by anyone whether it's good or bad.

[silent comet]

Dryo takes too long to grow considering the fact that its gameplay looks like dodging players trying to kill u and utahs will eventually kill u

[zenith vessel]

balanced

[golden coral]

And yet you'd have actual colonies of them every now and then in legacy, despite useless burrowing and even before that.

[hollow canyon]

I don't think I've ever seen those

[golden coral]

But then a proper dryo group does not get seen :p

[zenith vessel]

im sure a peck from the dryo could hurt ya

[hollow canyon]

I mean perhaps on one occasion or so.

[golden coral]

You'd have not found my family Aken, simply because we chose to live at a remote lake with so many trees anything but a utah would have had a hard time chasing us.

[silent comet]

30 minutes and u got 1/3 of a utah. Id rather go for utah

[zenith vessel]

balance

[golden coral]

I had 5-8 going when me and my partner nested in people. And of all the people we nested, only one decided "hell no" and jumped in the lake ^^

[silent comet]

So going for a utah is even better

[fathom obsidian]

utah still 90 and carno still 150, contrary to patch notes

[silent comet]

Its almost as agile and u wont get bored so fast as with dryo tho

[fathom obsidian]

yeah but its fine i mean 15 min who cares

its just not correct

[golden coral]

@hollow canyonMaybe you've not seen many of them, but there do exist people that play those critters too, to a more or less serious degree. My point was just that you can't only decide playable based on combat, much less how that combat works. A maia might be combat capable, but in a way that makes them more vunerable to utahs vs tenno who has entire body covered with pretty lethal moves. And maybe a maia would have four pounce slots too, so a better target than a tenno for that reason.

[silent comet]

20 mins for dryo would be better, would make more ppls play it

[fathom obsidian]

i like dryo even if everyone makes fun of me when i play it lol

[dim crown]

Beautiful But i cant speculate in terms of Troodon hunt\fight ,or anything not ingame, yet, to go ahead and say something is 100% this... Not saying, not to discuss btw, dont take me wrong, please.

[golden coral]

Well, legacy had nesting and all that. We'll have to wait and see when we get all that in Evrima. Right now it makes sense people only go carno/stego/deino/ptera (the latter two for new playstyles) to go on murder sprees. But in the future, we'll hopefully have a proper game loop, with more gameplay than just killing, and then we might see more of every playable.

[hollow canyon]

@golden coralDo note that a Dryo is a far smaller comittment time-wise than a Para or Maia. Will they see some play if you make them useless in combat? Sure but they will be extremely niche picks. Atm herbivores are niche even when they're good much less when they're also useless in combat. I can't see it being much better in the future.

[silent comet]

Just my opinion, saw mby 2 dryo players in a week and also 2 ai's

Elder system kinda weird ngl

[dim crown]

Size doesnt matter

[hollow canyon]

@alpine ploverI'd make it 0 minutes personally but the devs will do what the devs will do.

[silent comet]

Imagine how small hatchling hypsy will be

[hollow canyon]

@alpine ploverDoes it?

So what? It's an animal that's smaller than most juveniles.

[dim crown]

Would you say a Troodon is the size of the actual.... lets say for ex: a fresh spawn dryo?@alpine plover

[golden coral]

Most things will be niche I think. See deino, see ptera. And yes, people sometimes do play for the thrill of escaping someone by running. But of course you'll alwyas have people favour carnivores for other reasons, that can't be helped much. We can't turn herbis into carnis, then we'd probably lose the people that do want herbi gameplay. And dryos entire thing is that it's small, squeaks, and runs the hell away from everything that as much as looks at it :p And at no point did I state that maia or para would be "useless" in combat, only that they would be designed for getting the hell away, rather than standing their ground and fighting. A trike fights, a shant "runs", but a shant running means = trample death if you do not move aside so it's still dangerous.

[dim crown]

I dont know the numbers, 40 kg, means bigger or smaller?

[golden coral]

I mean, herrera is probably not going to be that combat capable. It's a small, "weak" thing that'll drop down on other small stuff, maybe something slightly bigger, and then scurry up into trees the moment something else even breathes nearby it. I will still play it because I want the arboreal gameplay.

[silent comet]

Herbi gameplay is actually enjoyable while defending against carnis, not if theres 10 carnos chasing u as teno or stego tho, what seems to happen quite often

[old hull]

Stego: has a limited number of attacks before running out of stam , has no escape option besides fighting and swings quite slow unless you swipe only right or left
Deinosuchus: has unlimited amount of alt bites , can attack in every direction much faster then stego and deals just slightly less damage
good game , very well balanced

[hollow canyon]

@golden coralIdk if Deino will ever be that niche. As for Para and Maia - even if they're designed to get away they should still realistically pack more of a punch than a Tenonto which is a fraction of their size.

[dim crown]

Try Legacy Juvi Carno........

[silent comet]

Yet stego kills deino in 9/10 times

[old hull]

except it does not

its the other way around

[silent comet]

Deino gameplay is kinda boring also leading to cannibalism

[golden coral]

If they do deino correctly, as they seem to have, current hitbox things aside, it will be niche. Most people do not have the patience to sit on their arses for long times just waiting for the right moment to strike. We've seen all the complaints after all.

[hollow canyon]

@silent cometIt doesn't really, I mean unless Deino doesn't know how to play the match up.

[golden coral]

And yes, a maia, and most certainly a para, will hit harder than a tenno. But as with stego.. that's not all that matters, now is it? :p

When I say a maia is a better target, it's because of the attacks it does have, and the general idea of them being geared towards aiding escape, not standing your ground and slaugthering everyone within reach. Tenno is designed to do the latter, it's a fighter through and through. It doesn't even run from carno after all :p

[dim crown]

Whats bigger, a full grown Troodon (as it is expected 4 now) or a fresh Spawn Juvi Dryo (of the actual version)?

[hollow canyon]

People more so complain about Deino having a low biteforce because they are just outraged that it doesn't outbite a Rex even though in real life it had probably the most impressive biteforce among the terrestrial animals. I don't think it's so much about Deino being incapable of killing things on land because it kills stuff just fine.

[golden coral]

It does now at least. But that's the hitbox change more than anything else. Now it actually gets the hits and all that.

[fathom obsidian]

i think a troodon

[golden coral]

Legacy juvie carno is fun to be. But it is a small and to my recollection not very strong thing? :p

[hollow canyon]

@golden coralIt did just fine on land since the build went live tbh.

I've been killing things on land just fine without much issue.

[dim crown]

Like a little demon, best Ambush in Legacy, imo, its fun.

[silent comet]

Deinos biteforce cant be bigger tho cuz it would make it op and it could be also a land animal too, idk why some deino players think that it should be that way

[golden coral]

Maybe you just got lucky :p

[hollow canyon]

It's more so about people being willing to fight me - if they're not I'm not going to kill them.

[golden coral]

@hollow canyonYou're not wrong, but deino did have hitbox issues, and we know how the tailtanking went after all.

[old hull]

the deino is already op and viable on land so why buff it even more lol

[golden coral]

Deino is too good on land now but.. :p

[silent comet]

8k hp makes up for everything kinda

[golden coral]

Yes, it's speedy and fun, but not very strong at all I don't think.

I don't think deino has that much health?

[silent comet]

It does

[old hull]

oh it very much does

[hollow canyon]

It has 6k to my knowledge

[dim crown]

Theres a vid on YT of a fresh spawn dryo "murdering" a fully grown Utah, on the current version of EVRIMA.

If that happens Troodons can kill Tenos

[hollow canyon]

It's the most in the game but it doesn't have quite 8k. That would be twice as much as Stego.

[dim crown]

Yes and yes.

Not impossible.

[silent comet]

Its 8 tailswings to the body of deino or so

[dim crown]

Yes afk.

Sniped

[golden coral]

Really?

[dim crown]

Rule 7 or 8, is dont go afk and dino.

😄

[silent comet]

Ye or 8 utah pounces and few bites i think

[golden coral]

Well that doesn't match up at all I don't think.

When did you test?

[silent comet]

What wont happen unless deino thinks hes land animal

[dim crown]

No, server would restart or reset.

[silent comet]

After update release

[golden coral]

Hmm, odd. I'll have to verify with my own tests. But if deino has that much health, then stego could do with a boost.. :p

[old hull]

i wouldnt say buff the stego , its the croc that needs to be changed

mainly that busted af alt bite

everything else about it was fine

[fathom obsidian]

alt bite need to be slower then normal bite, or atleast cost stam i dunno

[old hull]

except the garbage collision obviously

absolutely soad

the fact that it costs 0 stam is ridiculous

landcrocs should be punished not rewarded

[golden coral]

Yeah.. I wouldn't trust any wikia like that Wolf.. I can trust you if you've tested thoroghly, but otherwise, I'll verify on my own what it might be.

[old hull]

cuz rn a croc can outstego the stego on land lol

thats pretty dumb

[golden coral]

At least they can stop complaining about stego fishing.. :p

[old hull]

i mean tbf the only crocs getting fished were the ones stupid enough to go up to the stego

just swim away or dive and boom stego cant do anything about it

[fathom obsidian]

facts

[calm quartz]

No. that's logical. we don't do that here.

[dim crown]

Aim might be an issue when it comes 2 ALT- attack?

[old hull]

oh yeah my bad i forgot , BuFf DeInOsUcHus BiTeForCe

[calm quartz]

That's more like it.

[golden coral]

I know, I'm just making fun of the situation :p Yes there were some bad spots, but those were avoidable or at least could be planned for somewhat.

[old hull]

indeed , but oh well we got a hotfix coming soon (i hope) so lets hope some tweaks to the croc will come with it

[calm quartz]

I will believe when I see it, sadly.

[dim crown]

@alpine ploverI posted that Dryo vid on #videos-and-streams

[hollow canyon]

Stego shouldn't have been allowed to go after Deino the way it did either though. This match up isn't balanced and hasn't been balanced since the beginning.

[dim crown]

👆 good feedback? 👍

[calm quartz]

Stego can't attack while swimming, so it's "going after" Deino involved it baiting it from the shoreline. whether I agree with that play-style or not is irrelevant, and it's not exactly unbalanced.. or wasn't at one point. Deino got punished for not being cautious, Stego could also be punished for not being cautious either as the Deino's lunge has always stunned a Steg ( if the Deino was big enough) and left it open to bites.

[old hull]

quite litterally before this patch , if you died to a stego as a deino , it is always and i mean ALWAYS the deinos fault

[calm quartz]

I'd also like to point out that all non-semi-aquatics are punished for entering the water as they SHOULD BE, but Deino is no longer punished for leaving it's aqua domain. Hell, I'd say it's rewarded..

[hollow canyon]

Going by this logic nothing forces Stego to engage Deino either - it's faster on land and has far more stamina so there's no problem at all.

"If you die to Deino as a Stego it's always your fault - nobody forces you to engage it, that's just your own choice"

Is the quality of that whole argument. It's not true in this case and it isn't true in that case either.

[old hull]

except a stego cant engade a deino unless said deino is stupid enough to either be on land or just sitting on a shore

any deino with atleast a half a brain will be either swimming or underwater

i would say even allowing yourself to be seen , your a bad deinosuchus

your entire gimmick is ambushing your prey , sitting on land or on the shore is just being an idiot

and if you let a stego sneak up on you , i dont even know what to say

[calm quartz]

Again, I've made it quite clear I was not going to engage in a argument over whether or not that kind of aggressive play-style from a Stego was something I agreed with or not. It IS Irrelevant. Neither the Steg nor the Deino have to engage with each other. This is true. But does not address any issues that arise when they do, clearly..

[hollow canyon]

So ermm... why do you allow a Deino to engage you in that case? The same argument works both ways.

You don't have to go after the animal that is both slower than you and has less stamina. Stego can avoid Deino just fine if it wants to do so.

[old hull]

no it cant because you need to drink

you are forced to interact with them eventually everytime you get thirsty (i know the shallows are a thing but wont be forever)

[golden coral]

@fathom obsidianThe bucking is fine. Otherwise you'd have to nerf bleed and raw damage on the pounce again most likely. You should have to pounce a fair few times and wear it down, be that by staying on longer but doing less, or by doing more but only staying on very short.

[old hull]

meanwhile the croc never needs to interact with the stego

just ignore them if you dont want to deal with them

[hollow canyon]

You do not have to drink in the area where Deinos are - there's a lot of areas where they cannot ambush you because the water is not deep enough. If you choose to pick a spot where the water is deep it's kind of on you in that case.

[fathom obsidian]

rn you stay very short and do small dmg, but thats not the main problem, the problem its the landing after you release the pounce

[old hull]

like i said the shallows are a unfinished area , balancing the game around a glitch is not very smart

[hollow canyon]

What glitch?

[old hull]

when they eventually no longer exist , the problem will still be there

[calm quartz]

They COULD avoid each other and probably SHOULD.. Or at least that's the way it once was. Now, the Deino no longer needs to avoid the Stego. They don't need to care about being on land or exposed by shallow water... This is the issue...

[old hull]

the shallow water river that deino cant swim in

[hollow canyon]

That's not a glitch

[golden coral]

Agreed on the dismount issue, that much I think needs to be fixed. But bucking has to be good, it should be the primary mechanic, not me hiding at a tree/rock to get you off, at least in my eyes. Just like pounce should be utahs main mechanic for big prey, not by headbiting them or something.

[hollow canyon]

I have no idea why you'd assume it is

[old hull]

omg pls dont say you are actually that ignorant to believe a inch deep river is intentional

[reef bluff]

stego can bite while swimming takes 1 bite to kill a fresh deino

[golden coral]

And bleed does have a good effect, you just need to drain it, but that is again why you'd have to pounce a few "waves", and you'll eventually wear the prey down. As long as the dismount issue is fixed, I don't think the bucking would be a problem as it is right now.

[fathom obsidian]

yeah i mean if bucking stays like that im ok with it but i think its a bit insane, the dismount sucks and its the main thing

[hollow canyon]

Do you seriously think the devs left that river as shallow as they did because they couldn't be bothered to finish it?

[old hull]

yes , dondi litterally said so on his last stream

do your homework buddy

[hollow canyon]

Actually cancel that - provide me a single quote from a dev that would suggest it's not intentional.

Show me a clip of it from the stream then

[old hull]

if you are that curious go find the vod

[calm quartz]

Yes... The ever effective bite.. That does so little damage that it's hardly worth mentioning in the context I was using..

[golden coral]

I guess it would depend on how much the pounce does. Maybe it could be a little lighter, as long as A, bucking is the best option to get a pouncer off and B, it still requires a lot of pounces to get to a "this prey is more or less done for now" situation. Don't want the whole 'four pounces to kill a stego' back.

[fathom obsidian]

if you wanna test ill show you what i mean in my server, i dont want pounce dmg to be stronger

[old hull]

or just ask one of moderators or QA people , they will tell you the same thing

[hollow canyon]

I'm not going to find a vod that you've mentioned in the passing - either provide it or don't use it as proof. Not that it matters because you can still drink in multiple spots where Deino cannot ambush you due to the water being too shallow. You just need to know where those spots are.

[golden coral]

We could. You got the time now, and got three others to help out?

[fathom obsidian]

im free in like 20 min

maybe less ill let you know

[old hull]

well the vod has been deleted , but just ask a QA member or even punch whenever he shows up

and you can come tell me that i right ;)

[golden coral]

You're saying the entire shallow stretch is just unfinished, and not deliberate?

[old hull]

obviously yes

[hollow canyon]

I'd still tell you you're wrong - there are spots where you can drink without risking being ambushed by Deino other than the shallow river in the centre.

[golden coral]

Even so, there'd be shallower areas vs deeper ones. I doubt every single spot would be deep, especially since there might be shallower stuff for smaller deinos and others anyway.

[golden coral]

Huh, and here I figured it was meant to be, to force the deinos into some risk (if unneccesarily long), if it wanted to migrate.

[old hull]

reasonable to think that but no it is just unfinished

it is pretty silly when you look at it , how can a river even be so shallow and stretch out fo so long

plus if you have an area like that it just makes the whole point of deinosuchus useless since any smart person will only drink there

[hollow canyon]

There are already such spots in the game

So it's hardly an argument

You can make Deino utterly useless if you care to learn where those spots are

[old hull]

yeah i know but cmon , an entire river vs 3-4 little areas where the deino can still get you its just harder

[hollow canyon]

It's somewhat harder but it's not exactly hard. Not to mention the map will very likely change with time anyways since we have a new level designer.

[ripe zinc]

the swamps have several spots where you can drink safely without getting snuck up on by deinos, and that's arguably the only area with water that can be considered finished atm

[calm quartz]

The Deino would no longer be useless at those spots either... It's just slightly harder for it as it's slow. This is the issue being discussed. How it's OP on land now, too.

[ripe zinc]

so the shallow river not being finished and therefore you're not supposed to drink safely is a bad argument

[old hull]

again 1 or 2 areas vs a massive river crossing a good chunk of the map

do you really think that one of the biggest rivers on the map , and the only way for crocs to cross from east to west is supposed to be like 2 inches deep?

cmon guys

[ripe zinc]

nobody said the shallow river is supposed to be like that

[old hull]

that is litterally exactly what you were both saying

[ripe zinc]

I'm just saying we're obviously meant to have relatively safe drinking spots as the swamps have them and that's actually somewhat polished

[ripe zinc]

read it again

[hollow canyon]

The eastern river also has them

[old hull]

sure i dont disagree with those , but the river is kinda obvious

again a river having a few shallow spots makes sence , an entire river being 1 inch deep

does not

[hollow canyon]

Right so how does that help your case? There are spots where you can drink safely without being threatened by a Deinosuchus so it's down to you whether you allow Deino to engage with you or not.

The only instances where I fought Deinos so far were when i actively sought them out to fight them. If I just want to drink I do just that.

[sinful cove]

“Nerf stegosaurus”
“It's so tanky” literally has less hp than its weight
“It's so strong” has one attack that does anything and it drains crazy stam while being easy to juke

The crocs bite is low damage because it is supposed to rely on its special ability, but right now it can spambote stego to death through its ass after getting a couple free shots in after its lunge. If stego swing did the same amount of damage as deino bite then it would be even more fodderized than it is now against the current roster with carni megapacks infesting the map

Also upvoting your own suggestion

[full ocean]

One message removed from a suspended account.

One message removed from a suspended account.

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[sinful cove]

I swear these kids want herbis to just look strong but be ez kills so they can just steamroll them and then screenshot themselves broadcasting next to the body and feel validated about the non-achievement

[vagrant mural]

Guys the apex that relies on tankiness and power relies on takiness and power

What am I going to do

[full ocean]

One message removed from a suspended account.

One message removed from a suspended account.

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[spare badger]

Bruh imagine thinking that a rhino sized reptile with huge spikes on its tail shouldnt be able to kill alligator like what?

[vagrant mural]

It should

[left scroll]

even a normal ass rhino would smack down a croc

let alone one with metre-long spikes on its tail

[granite gate]

i mean dont hippos (also similar size) absolutely demolish crocs in fights?

and they're literally the fleshiest lookin fuckers ever, no scales, no armor, no spikes, just huge mouth with less bite force (but 20x more anger) than a croc

[slim dragon]

This is probably why crocs are ambush predators
They're not that good in a fight

If only deino could ambush as well...

[spare badger]

Exactly lol herbivores aren't useless

Otherwise there would be no herbivores

[granite gate]

?

so you agree herbivores should be able to defend themselves?

[mellow zenith]

irl croc don't outweight hippo by 2T

[granite gate]

irl croc has higher bite force tho, and still gets demolished

[mellow zenith]

Bite is not enough in that case

hippo is a lot bigger

[granite gate]

but bite force and weight are how the game is balanced / measures stats, that's why i brought it up

[serene spoke]

@versed rune i agree that alt bite should drain stam just not that much, i think like 5% is good.

[granite gate]

realistically speaking, yeah a deino would destroy a modern-day hippo in a fight despite the hippo's immense love for violence

but balance-wise, with stego being the biggest herbi right now (and considering it also takes 5 hours to grow....) it really doesn't need to be any weaker

[mellow zenith]

not in evrima, i mean damage calculation is not like legacy. weight doesn't influence damage anymore

[granite gate]

weight influences health though, doesn't it?

i meant stats as in health / damage

[mellow zenith]

cannot say

in my knowledge weight inlfuence fall damage and special ability (charge, pounce, lunge etc....) threshold

Weight = hp in legacy ?

[granite gate]

eh idk

[wraith spindle]

lmao people not wanting cannibalism to have a negative effect when diets are added is very telling of the current playerbase

[slim dragon]

Not for deinos

[mellow zenith]

agree

[wraith spindle]

wtf?

Deinos have the BIGGEST issue with cannibalism

[silent comet]

deino should be used to ambush players who get to close to the water, people play it on land and expect to kill stegos etc and the funny thing is that it mostly works for them so there seems to be a problem

[ripe zinc]

they will still kill you just because. They don't even do it for food most of the time.

[mellow zenith]

agree x2

[wraith spindle]

and NOT giving them a debuff will help with that?

[silent comet]

Deino gameplay is boring what leads to cannibalism, people also cannibalise to "remove" the deino player and make them change the class or just for fun to be a dick

[wraith spindle]

if you make cannibalism be the worst diet it will deter a few people at least

[ripe zinc]

The debuff won't have much of an effect either way

[silent comet]

its not a mmo game

[wraith spindle]

kind of is, but I don't see your point?

[slim dragon]

Deinos cannibalizing is fine

[mellow zenith]

Imo is not a playable that should get bad consequence for cannibalism.

[slim dragon]

Since WITH cannibalism servers are 50% deinos, WITHOUT it would be 90% deinos

[silent comet]

its survival game, dont trust any1 like in rust people betray or will use you

[wraith spindle]

why? whats your reasoning?

[silent comet]

deinos or carnos are overpopulated, i rarely see other classes cannibalise

[slim dragon]

If deinos can't cannibalize
All deinos will survive
You get more deinos

[mellow zenith]

In theory yes (still be some killing for fun but i agree overhaul)

[ripe zinc]

Some of the deinos will die hilariously to carnos and stegos, but yeah.

[mellow zenith]

Currently its very easy to grow deino (not fun but easy)

[silent comet]

if a deino dies to carno or stego then he did smth wrong

[wraith spindle]

I see what you mean, but it's not nessecarily true. the same people would play Deino as before, only they will have to be more picky about what they eat

[ripe zinc]

that's why it's so funny

[slim dragon]

No, because everyone ho plays deino would be able to reach adulthood without fearing other deinos

[silent comet]

and then they go to suggestions and "BuFf DeInO"

[wraith spindle]

but there should be other threats to Deinos than other Deinos imo

[slim dragon]

There will be

[silent comet]

same with carnos

[slim dragon]

But that's not a reason to prevent cannibalism for them, it's normal

[wraith spindle]

I think they should make most animals better matchups against Deinos and then, maybe, we'll se some solidarity between the crocs

[silent comet]

if you dont want to die due to cannibalism then avoid playing deino and possibly carno

[wraith spindle]

I just think Deino is a cool animal at it's core and currently the only issues is the ridiculous ammount of toxic Deino players

and it really is an issue

Deino has almost no survivability as a juvie

[granite gate]

i mean rn the only thing that can actually kill deinos is... other deinos

[obtuse ocean]

and its supose to have that ? You are supose to be useless when juvi

[wraith spindle]

strange design philosophy

I don't buy it

[granite gate]

make it literally painful for them to kill each other and then what, no actual predators for deinos until other aquatics / semi-aquatics get added?

[alpine plover]

Well that is mainly for balance

Too many giant crocs is not a good thing

[wraith spindle]

you're supposed to be weak as a juvie, not useless

[granite gate]

all juvies are useless

[wraith spindle]

no

[granite gate]

only thing baby deinos need is cover, not to be buffed

[obtuse ocean]

Only thing you can fight as juvi is other juvis

[granite gate]

if an adult carno spots you as a baby carno, you are dead unless you can lose them in the forest

welcome to the isle

people eat people

[wraith spindle]

this is the main issue I have with the isles players, they're so uncreative. To make a juvie viable obviously doesn't mean to make it able to kill a grown Carno

[granite gate]

i mean, imagine if you spent 5 hours growing a gator only to starve to death because you tried to go for the only food you could find, which were baby gators -- only to get a massive debuff?

[wraith spindle]

make it viable, not heccing stronk

[wraith spindle]

I've never had to cannibalize, you get hungry really slowly as Deino and fish spawns a lot

[silent comet]

juvies are viable atleast for me

[granite gate]

so if juvies arent "viable" how the hell are so many people surviving as them?

[obtuse ocean]

I mean all this will change when more dinos come into the game, more to feed on more to die from. But its very realistic that ur useless as juvi, you can try to run and thats it.

[granite gate]

even solo?

[silent comet]

i see so many juvie deinos finding full growns who wont kill them and let them grow

[granite gate]

as a solo gator?

[wraith spindle]

look at a Juvie ptera for example: it has a ridiculously high survivability and not because it one-shots everything

[silent comet]

therefor it gets boring

[granite gate]

i played on the officials and also found a nice croc family that helped me grow to full, so yeah... really not hard to grow to full as a croc

[wraith spindle]

bad argument because you obviously got lucky

[granite gate]

but it happens to a lot of people?

[wraith spindle]

literally has never happened to me, so it's just anecdotal

[granite gate]

yes it's "lucky" but it's still possible. every time i fly around as a ptera i literally only ever see big gangs of croc families all being buddy buddy

"literally hasnt happened to me" is equally anecdotal

[silent comet]

juvie shouldnt really be realistically able to survive by itself and it is able to do so, so i dont really see the problem

[wraith spindle]

THATS MY POINT

bruh

[ripe zinc]

that's not what anecdotal means lol

[obtuse ocean]

all this will change, it will come server with tons of rules etc we can play on.

[wraith spindle]

yes it is?

[granite gate]

it's easy to survive as a gator even on no-rules servers though...

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, but you die the split second you meet 2 or more

[granite gate]

the most a baby gator should get is extra cover in the rivers, so it can hide like all other juvies do

[wraith spindle]

I'm saying he is just telling me about his personal experience. or as it is also called: an anecdote

[ripe zinc]

surviving as croc is just a question of whether you meet dirtbag crocs that kill you or not, pretty much just luck

[silent comet]

i see many deinos at pond not killing eachothers, its mostly luck and timing like all survival games

[granite gate]

^

again, same as with all other species

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, but its not fun playing when its all up to luck : P

[wraith spindle]

and you're fine with it not being skill-based but luck-based?

[granite gate]

that's just how the game is

that's how multiplayer games are -- its luck

[wraith spindle]

literally not but ok

[obtuse ocean]

lets hope they manage to balance the game towards skill and not cuddling up

[granite gate]

players are unpredictable and uncontrollable

[wraith spindle]

yes

[granite gate]

metagaming the entire isle experience with debuffs is not how you fix issues

[silent comet]

as juvie deino u cant really escape full grown deino that wants to kill u but so u cant escape carno as juvie carno or utah

[granite gate]

and my point with all my "anecdotes" is that despite the apparent rampant cannibalism, there are still loads of adult deinos around -- far more than i see of adult stegos, mind you

[ripe zinc]

no, there should be some solidarity between the crocs, but the dirtbags always gravitate towards the biggest, meanest dinos. Maybe when rex gets added again deino will be playable.

[obtuse ocean]

100% agree, but if im grown and solo i shouldt be walking free food

[wraith spindle]

yeah alright, fair point.

[granite gate]

also keep in mind rn the deino is the most popular and most exciting dino to play in the game rn, of course it's going to be overpopulated and thus lead to cannibalism

[silent comet]

u want to play deino with a group if u dont wanna die to cannibals, kinda is like it is

[wraith spindle]

I feel like a small carno has a much, much easier time escaping another carno tho

[granite gate]

when there were just utahs in evrima, there was massive amounts of cannibalism amongst utahs. it's just part of natural population control

[silent comet]

comparing to deino, it does

[wraith spindle]

ye

[granite gate]

the only difference is that deino juvies need cover and the underwater sense shit to be removed so they can actually run and hide

they do not need special debuffs or other crap like that, literally just better map building

[wraith spindle]

I can get behind that

[obtuse ocean]

Yea true, even when i was a solo rex you could walk away if you met 2-3 rexes.

[wraith spindle]

I also think stego needs some adjusting

[granite gate]

oh for certain

5 hours for something that can be 1v1'd by carnos, utahs, and deinos atm is... wack

[obtuse ocean]

Stego is horrible atm, thats way to easy to kill. Just bait and bite , repeat.

[silent comet]

i would rather avoid playing overpopulated dinos cuz of cannibalism and lack of fun in running in a group of 10 as carno for example and kill everything that moves

[silent comet]

if you are found alone by few utahs or carno then yea, u most likely dead. If you are in a group of few stegos then u can counter alot actually but its hard to find other stego players cuz its underpopulated

and its actually fun to fight utahs as stego or teno, not so fun when it comes to 10 carnos tho

[ripe zinc]

stego needs less damage and more attack speed imo. rn the tail swipe has to be easy to avoid because of how much damage it does.

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, but i dont want it to be a cuddling up game. Its like legacy you could defend yourself against 10 utahs as lets say sucho. You could still die,but you could also defend yourself

[silent comet]

not really, if stego positions itself good then carnos cant do anything and utahs have problems and will risk alot

[mellow zenith]

agree 100%

[wraith spindle]

well just got cannibalized by a Deino again

[ripe zinc]

why do you even bother, lol

[wraith spindle]

good point I'm not gonna play the game until further balanced

[obtuse ocean]

You lucky who died as a juvi, and not waiting 5 hrs and then die to 2 adults : P

[ripe zinc]

that's what happened to me. Fuck that, I'll have more fun playing the other dinos anyway.

[wraith spindle]

Has happened many time to me

[obtuse ocean]

lol same happend to me, im never gonna grow one again. Before new dinos/stuff etc comes : P

[ripe zinc]

maybe when the next fotm dinosaur is released, I'll try deino again. Right now I can't be bothered with it.

[silent comet]

remember that u can always switch the dinosaur you play, if you really eager to play deino u can switch servers

playing deino is boring, you make it overpopulated and u get cannibalised only cons ay

[ripe zinc]

he seems hell bent on playing deino or nothing, dunno what's up with that. Deino is overrated.

[silent comet]

just bUfF dEiNo.

[obtuse ocean]

Deino will get buff later when the apexes comes, since he will be one aswell if im not wrong.

[ripe zinc]

ikr, as if buffing deino wouldn't just make it even less fun as it would have no player interaction beyond other deinos at all

[silent comet]

deinos purpose is to ambush not to go on land and fight every1

[mellow zenith]

8t and huge bite force, i hope it will

[obtuse ocean]

Yea ofcourse, if allo was re leased now. You would never see a croc on land

[mellow zenith]

it didn't say that

[silent comet]

yeh i would make deino to be able atleast to run 60km/h and increase its biteforce to 2k so he can fight carnos, also he could jump to be able to kill pteras, and mby pounce on stegos dunno

[wraith spindle]

I said earlier that if anything, I want them to nerf deino

but, ha ha, funny meme

[obtuse ocean]

They gonna get a buff later on in game, when we have alot more dinos/apexes etc

[wraith spindle]

aight

[mellow zenith]

it will (hoepfully) just be a buff to make it able to ambush bigger stuff

with a tug a war system

[obtuse ocean]

Well i need to bite a carno what 3-4 times to kill it ? That would prob be 8 bites to kill a allo, that sound strange : P

[mellow zenith]

its not about biting

it will be about the lunge i think

[wraith spindle]

thing is tho. on land the deino is bad just becaus its slow, if you ever die to a deino on land you're doing something wrong

I keep hearing people complain about how its too good on land and I don't see it

[obtuse ocean]

Well its supose to challange the rex if its close to water ofcourse, and i dont see a apex fight where you will need to bite eachother 20 times : P

[mellow zenith]

its good because alt bite doesn't cost stam and the tweak on the locational damage make it able to head/neck shot

[wraith spindle]

It should be hella strong IF it catches up to you, which it can't

look at real gators, its not like other animals are dying to kill them even on land

because one bite can be devastating

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, but i do agree on what vektor said about lunge and bigger animals. Cus your mistake was actually before you went close to the water

[wraith spindle]

Its like people are walking into Deinos, getting killed, then complain its too good

[wraith spindle]

yeah, make the lunge expensive in terms of stam

[ripe zinc]

that's exactly what happens most of the time

[obtuse ocean]

Thats like walking up to a rex and it bites you, and you say the rex is OP : P

[wraith spindle]

yes

[mellow zenith]

overhaul if you die against deino on land its because you tried to kill it

[ripe zinc]

ironically that's also how the "stego OP" cries from deino players happen

[wraith spindle]

only the rex could actually chase you

[wraith spindle]

yeah that I also hate

and I mainly play Deino

If I die to anything other than Deino, I played bad

[obtuse ocean]

But il be honest, it must be really hard to balance stuff

[mellow zenith]

yeah

[wraith spindle]

you obviously can't please everyone

[mellow zenith]

no need to put buff into the equation

balancing the isle is already hard enough

[ripe zinc]

Deino is probably the easiest one to balance though. It's a god in the water and trash tier on land, done

[mellow zenith]

Pretty much yeah

i would really like a cost on the alt bite for deino

this way, if you burn all your stam with it and don't have enough stam to go back in water, it will be on you

[obtuse ocean]

Yea totally agree, and im actually fine by dying from that

cus i know why i died : P

[mellow zenith]

its the same philosophy with stego tail strike, don't spam it or you will die

[obtuse ocean]

yepp, learnt that the hard way : P

[mellow zenith]

im not saying that its perfect atm but i think thats the good call with those abilities

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, its good for now i would say. Its gonna be so much new stuff in the game later. We even need to look up in trees soon : P

[silent comet]

it works with all animals, u manage ur stamina bad u die, with some its easier and with others its harder to manage it tho

[dim crown]

Is this Troo'don fuck with me?!? Really?!?

[dim crown]

Deino needs that ALT bite 2 much, he needs it cheap.

[mellow zenith]

ofc but a stam cost is needed

[dim crown]

Why, stam cost?

Its pretty useless, if it cant ALT bite ( on land)

It would be 2 much, if it had a stam cost.

It needs that fast turn, but spamming it might have a different, repercussion?

Why stam cost needed?

[slim dragon]

For a repercussion

So that it cannot spin to win eternally

[dim crown]

Its not a type of move like a pounce.

[slim dragon]

And also to be on par with EVERY other playable

Whose alt attacks always cost stam

[dim crown]

Spin doesnt mean win, spin badly on my face and you doomed.

Water dinos, air dinos different from land dinos, stam wise.

[slim dragon]

No because you can't oneshot a deino
It's alt bite is also much faster than its regular bite

[dim crown]

Alt bite on Deino, atm, on this version, is fine, imo.

StamWise

[slim dragon]

It's fine to not cost any stam while all other alt attacks cost stam ?

[dim crown]

Imo, yes.

Its different from a utah for example.

In that aspect

[slim dragon]

Sure, it's much less mobile and as such must put a lot more energy into an alt bite

[dim crown]

Utah Alt bite wastes stam?

Carnos alt bite?

[slim dragon]

yes

[dim crown]

Teno claw attack?

[slim dragon]

yes

[dim crown]

3rd yes?

All 3 of them?

Waste stam?

[slim dragon]

yes

[dim crown]

Ok

Interesting

But deino looks fine

As it is.

Poor deino if alt attack wastes stam,

[slim dragon]

It's not meant to go into long fights on land

[dim crown]

Debatable.

[silent comet]

jus buf karno

[slim dragon]

And currently it isn't punishable in any means

[mellow zenith]

i would like a stam cost on alt bite ONLY on land

[dim crown]

Its not meant to be just on water, maybe?

If played well croc can outplay you inland.

[slim dragon]

And it's not meant to

[dim crown]

Also.

[dim crown]

Debatable, who said that?

[mellow zenith]

Alt bite cost on land would make the deino think:
"should i burn my stam to fight ?"
or
"should i sprint in the water using my stam"

[slim dragon]

Devs

[dim crown]

Should i stay or should i go? Like the song

[dim crown]

When, can you share that quote.

[slim dragon]

No because I don't have a screenshot

[dim crown]

Ok.

[slim dragon]

But I thought everyone knew that deino was supposed to be aquatic and not a land apex

[silent comet]

it gets to specific when altbite would cost stam only on land. It should cost stam no matter if on land or in water

[dim crown]

But i doubt that something, so absolute, has that, Bubu, would be said at this stage.

[dim crown]

I never said it was a land apex.

[slim dragon]

If it can beat anything else on land
Then it's a land apex

[dim crown]

But that doesnt mean, face a dino on land = death, if water not close, this is more wrong to me than stam cost alt bite on deino.

Debatable.

[mellow zenith]

As specific as the running into shallow water as the deino don't cost stam like running on land

[hollow canyon]

As for Pesky's suggestion - it's not really a good one. It would end up making Deinosuchus borderline useless without solving any issues. Having the alt bites take 10-20% stam doesn't have that much of an effect on the match up against Stegosaurus because it will be over before you run out of stamina. On the other hand it would make Deinosuchus really, really bad at handling faster and more agile targets. Carnos and Utahs would absolutely murder it without Deino being able to fight back for long at all.

The issue with Deinosuchus isn't really even to do with its alt bite not costing stamina. The problem is more so with the attack speed of Deinosuchus. It's literally the only animal on the roster that performs its alternative attacks faster than its normal attacks. The easiest fix is to... swap the attack rates for its normal bite and the alt bite.

This would make it so that a Deinosuchus that has its front towards you can have a very significant DPS output. However if it has to leap around turning its whole body around its damage yield goes down through the floor and to the basement.

[ripe zinc]

Do you know how long it takes for utahs to take out a deino?

it's not the alt bite that keeps utahs from killing deinos, it's the amount of punishment they can take with massive hp and bleed resist

[hollow canyon]

If Deino has no stamina it is very much possible to take it out - you need roughly 48 bites on its torso to kill it.

While it is difficult and takes a lot of time if you made it impossible for the Deino to use its alt bites a Utah could very much solo it.

[ripe zinc]

The deino can just waddle into water after 5 minutes and be fine though

even with a big pack of utahs attacking it

[hollow canyon]

Not if its traveling across the shallow river. You wouldn't even need a pack to kill it there if its alt bite took 10-20% stamina.

And again - it doesn't do much if anything for the Stego match up

and Utah isn't the only animal in the game. Carno needs something like 18 or 19 bites to kill a Deino and it could also kill one without much issue if you bumped Deino's stamina drain on the alt bite so much.

[mellow zenith]

Utah's alt bite is faster than regular bite @hollow canyon

And the current problem with deino vs stego is the locational damage change

[hollow canyon]

Are you sure about that? I know that Utahs bite is relatively slow but its attack rate has been changing quite a bit.

It is but the change I'm suggesting would fix that

[mellow zenith]

But stam cost is needed on deino alt bite cause its faster and has a bigger hitbox

[hollow canyon]

You see - you're not going to be headshotting a Stego with normal bites unless its front is towards you

Deino can do that now because alt bite makes it move forward during the attack

it allows Deino to hit Stego's head through its body because it moves Deino forward and causes its body to clip through Stego

You're not going to do that with normal bites

[mellow zenith]

I know

[hollow canyon]

Therefore if what I propose gets introduced you will be in a situation where you either try to spam alt bites which aren't fast enough to take out a Stego

or you attack with normal bites which don't hit its head unless it's the head that you're facing

Deino could still win but only if Stego faces it head-first

[mellow zenith]

The problem is big hitbox should not score headshot/neckshot if its not the first part being hit imo

[hollow canyon]

I absolutely and completely disagree

I mean

perhaps it could prioritise the body

if multiple locational areas are hit

[mellow zenith]

Yeah

[hollow canyon]

but the state of the game prior to that change was far, far worse

you had Utahs, Carnos and Tenontos tanking hits from Stego and Deino just by turning their tails towards them and "catching" the attacks with their tail tips

I honestly don't think the locational change is that much of an issue

[mellow zenith]

If you want to have "extra damage" you should aim for it. Not getting through the model to get it

[hollow canyon]

It's only abusable because Deino's alt bite works the way it does

And well - the very fact that you can spam it faster than the normal bite is just weird to me

[mellow zenith]

Stego too

[mellow zenith]

I disagree

[hollow canyon]

Why? You have two attacks - one where Deinosuchus just shuts its jaws and another one where it throws its whole body around. Why should the latter one be faster and have a higher attack rate?

This is something that should be used as a tool to get to an animal that's either away from you or behind you, not your default attack.

Atm there's 0 reason to use normal bite aside from when you're fishing or something. It's absolutely terrible due to long cooldown, lack of mobility and precision.

Not to mention Deinosuchus just looks comical when you spam alt bite as fast as you can. It shouldn't be able to perform those attacks that fast.

[mellow zenith]

Keep sprinting when attacking is only possible with normal bite. Aiming above or below is only possible with normal bite aswell

[hollow canyon]

Idk what you would like to "hit and run" with a Deino but you can technically still do that with the alt bite due to the fact that you keep moving while performing it.

None of those reasons really justify it being used and again - why would you want alt bite where the croc throws its whole body around to be faster than the normal bite where it just bites?

[mellow zenith]

Alt bite stop your velocity, on every playable.
If i want to headshot a stego and keep running to be away from his tail strike range, i need to use the normal bite

[hollow canyon]

Even if you put a stamina cost on Deino's alt bite it hardly changes anything in the match up against the Stego as unless you make it drain like 20 or 25% of Deino's stamina it will still end up with either Deino or Stego dying before you drain that whole stam.

You're not going to do that whether you alt bite or not - Deino doesn't move fast enough to get out of Stego's striking range, your best bet is to just go for it full in.

If you try to get away you will just get yourself killed from what I've seen and tested so far.

[zenith lion]

i have played the last 20 hours or more with deino aken

and i completely agree with you

no deino in his sane mind will use normal bite now

[mellow zenith]

I don't care about the deino vs stego match up. Its the locational damage that make this horrible for stego, not the alt bite.
Scoring headshot through the body need tweak

[zenith lion]

but the balance in changing the speed of the attacks

is a very good idea

[hollow canyon]

It is the alt bite though - that's the only reason why you can pull off those headshots. You're not doing that with the normal bite

[mellow zenith]

Deino alt bite need stam cost because:
Faster bite rate
Bigger hitbox

[hollow canyon]

Why does it have the faster bite rate in the first place?

[zenith lion]

if you make the alt bite less spammable, you will tweak the headshots to stego being unfair

[mellow zenith]

Ask the dev, not me

[hollow canyon]

And yea I agree the alt bite needs a stam cost but nowhere near as high as what people are proposing

[zenith lion]

nah, if they put 20 stamina cost

just kill it

it would be better to be dead already

[hollow canyon]

Alright let me rephrase that - why does it need a faster bite rate? There are no advantages balance-wise for it to bite faster with alt biting than when biting normally.

[mellow zenith]

3-5% stam cost seems fine on the deino alt bite imo

[hollow canyon]

3-4% is fine

[zenith lion]

the hitboxes are failing in every part of deino, for the good and bad

[hollow canyon]

4% adds up to 25 bites

3% adds up to 33 bites

[zenith lion]

yep

that is a very reasonable amount

[hollow canyon]

That's a decent amount, to the point where you can get a Deino tired enough on land to have it go down to a pack of terrestrial carnivores

[zenith lion]

yep

without murdering him

[hollow canyon]

5% is a bit high imo

[zenith lion]

but this is gold

[zenith lion]

maybe go for the 3 and see how that goes

[hollow canyon]

I also think Stego's stam burn on its thagomizer attack is way too high 10% for that attack is just absurd

[zenith lion]

this is a game, and people will look for the best way to kill, and right now is spamming alt bite

i havent used normal bite since i experimented with it

with your idea, both of the attacks would have a point

[mellow zenith]

Maybe yes

[zenith lion]

a reason to be there

[hollow canyon]

Yea, that's what I'm going for. It would give far more purpose to the normal attack turning the alt bite into what it really should be - a tool to reposition yourself and get a bite off on something that's not in the reach of the normal bite. You'd "aim it" and fire it off when someone is approaching. Atm you should still really do that but even if you mess up you can follow up with the next one right after that.

[golden coral]

@mellow zenithIf you can get through the model, then there's other issues. It has nothing to do with the hitbox, but the target either being too close, or there's a lack of collision that allows for positioning in ways it shouldn't. The hitbox should prioritize the highest damage values, because using a weaker multiplier spot to "tank" is just stupid. The issue is the positioning, nothing else. Stego can do so to utahs cause of dismount distance, deino can do so to stego cause of being inside the stego. Fix that, and you'll have to aim to get the good shots, unless the target just isn't positioning correctly/is simply too small or close to avoid the attack properly.

[hollow canyon]

As for Stego it definitely goes out of steam way too fast.

[mellow zenith]

I agree, i hate the collision in evrima (still better than no collision like in legacy tho)

[ripe zinc]

utah resting sound is fine the way it is, you pretty much have to choose whether to rest or hide as you can't do both

[golden coral]

@mellow zenith Oh yes, better with some collision than none, but it could use some work. Utah dismount change should fix that issue. And with something for "rear area" so you can't just be up someones ass, that should fix the deino thing, since if it has to move around/up the side of the stego, then it'll be in far more range and making it a bit easier for stego to turn with it. I do believe the hitbox change was good, it was equally, if not more frustrating to see your thagomizer hit the entire utah and it just going away with 5% lost health anod no bleed cause tailtip.. :p

[mellow zenith]

Agree

But i still think that you should not get rewarded with headshot damage if you hit the tail/body first.

[golden coral]

I obviously don't know how the collision works, but maybe extend it a little up front/down back for all critters might help. Like to the base of the head and the base of the tail or something.

Ideally you wouldn't, because you'd be out of range. But I can see your point as well. I think it's mostly what makes most sense to us personally there :p

[mellow zenith]

Those parts (neck and head) should require DIRECT hit imo

[golden coral]

To me it makes more sense that if the attack hits the entire body, you count the worst hit, cause the alternative is frustrating, but I do agree it should require a bit of aiming as well. Problem is how to make both sides work there.

[hollow canyon]

In multiple instances you won't have direct hits - e.g. if you're attacking something small like a Utah or Dryo with something the size of a Stego or Deino you will end up having your attack cover the entirety of their body

that's why this change was introduced in the first place

because you had those ridiculous situations where a Utah would have to be bitten 20+ times by a Deinosuchus

because despite the fact that the entire Utahraptor is in Deino's jaws the croc was dealing ~50 damage to it

because the first part getting hit was the tail

[golden coral]

They should ideally, but you're always going to have things that basically cover the entire critter, and if they're not one shot on tail, you get this sort of weird situation then. I get what you want and I don't disagree that it should require aim and all that, the more skill the better, but there are obvious issues there. Such as a deino covering an entire utah with it's jaws.

[mellow zenith]

Indeed

[golden coral]

Could try making it prioritize body neutrally. So if you cover the entire body you get neutral damage, rather than extra. It's a compromise that will remove the tailtanking tricks, while still adding that extra aim for the bonus damage. Would also help the stego out vs deino a little, if not the utah vs stego.

[mellow zenith]

Agree

[alpine plover]

@wraith spindle

IRL crocs eat other crocs, dont play a crocodile if you dont want to get hunted by bigger crocs

@proper zephyr

carno alt bite is fine, people just dont use it well

Its great for catching utahs trying to bite you from behind

[proper zephyr]

hmm

when you stop asking

[hollow canyon]

Carno's alt bite is not great at anything. It takes just as much time as turning around and biting normally

[hexed lantern]

can someone please explain how players are able to find you in the dead of night while youve been sitting in a bush for the past 15 mintues. it's seriously starting to turn me off from the game. I can't see anything at night with my brightness at max, yet other players are able to find me no problem, and pinpoint the exact spot im hiding in a large dense bush.

[hollow canyon]

I'm not exactly sure about some of it either. There is a possibility that those people just logged in. When you log in it takes a moment for the vegetation to load and you could technically see people during that time.

[hexed lantern]

If it were up to me, I would put everything else on hold and work on adding night vision, and nesting next. those two mechanics are too vital in a game like this to have been left out for as long as they've been.

[plucky holly]

resting animation makes noises like heavy breathing. Try crouching, the dino tries to stay silent

[hexed lantern]

I was crouched

[ripe zinc]

maybe you weren't as well hidden as you thought you were, if your screen is that dark? idk

[marble pond]

Speaking of #balance-feedback message

[golden coral]

@cold palm What should be fixed exactly? The map might be getting some changes, so I guess that might make for some "escape" route, if that is what is needed.

[alpine plover]

@cold palm

nah

those deinos were bad

deino can easily kill stego

[sinful cove]

^ Steg shouldnt be punished for killing bad players

Deino had the gap narrowed a ton in the recent update, if they are getting mass murdered by a couple stegos they are trash

[cold palm]

dont u get it? I can sit in water above my head level and still swipe my tail, i killed 16 fully grown deinos as a stego today and i'm still alive, ALL of them died in the water.

[alpine plover]

Injuried deinos not having anyway to heal off stego damage cause of the reach in crowded pools is the reason they keep dying, doesn’t matter if a deino is good or bad, if the stego gets the first hit on an adult and doesn’t let it get close it’s as good as dead

[cold palm]

The problem is that stego is literally a deino killing machine, its like they are meant to feed off deinos, its op and i killed so many deinos in these past weeks that there's literally no counter argument over this. Deinos are not dealing enough damage, a carno has almost the same amount and its 6 tones lighter.

[golden coral]

So what to fix then? There's plenty of space in most of the rivers (shallows aside), and the pool spawn, which really is on the deinos for not seeing potential danger at least in part. And with hitbox changes and fixes, a solo deino can take out a solo stego now if it knows what it's doing. So I don't know what those deinos were up to.

[golden coral]

Even before the changes, two deinos could take a stego if they knew what they were doing. Stego was never OP, it was more a matter of deinos not knowing how to play their critter correctly.

[cold palm]

stegos should not sit in the water m8, they should run away scared of it. Instead they hunt deinos for fun, thats what i do and i'm not proud of it, but i'm abusing this because noone cares about "bAlAnCe".

[golden coral]

No, they should not. Deino is not meant to hunt stegos. While I agree that stegos should not sit in the water, they can't. If the deino knows what it's doing, a stego that "sits" in the water will die. Especially now with the change, before that, it required two, but even then.

[cold palm]

I got so much footage of hunting deinos as a stego, that there's literally no way to tell me that this is balanced..

[golden coral]

The fact that you can do what you claim is down to the deinos being bad/lacking knowledge on how to play, rather than balance.

@cold palm#401464048610312195 message

[alpine plover]

Again deinos being bad isn’t the issue here a good deino can still get slapped by a stego that also knows what it’s doing. It’s a matter of stegos having damn near free range of the rivers with 8 ton crocodiles trying to kill them while most of them just kinda want to chill, and the stegos want to kill

[cold palm]

I'll rest my case for now, i'll keep hunting them til one will be an admin or something then they'll be like "what a minute, i'm a decent hunter and he destroyed me, maybe the stego is kinda op" who knows

[golden coral]

They don't. Watch the link vid. If you could kill all those deinos with the two of you, then the deinos were indeed relatively bad.

[alpine plover]

That was an awful stego

Good lord

[golden coral]

The stego is nowhere near OP, the deino if anything is OP these days.

[golden coral]

Point still stands, deino is perfectly capable of killing a stego very quickly.

You lunge, stun, alt bite.

[alpine plover]

Sooo stegos are capable of killing hundreds of bad deinos while it takes one really good deino to kill one really bad stego?

[cold palm]

yep

[alpine plover]

Seems like a tooootally balanced thing to me

[golden coral]

You don't need to be that good, and the stego does not need to be bad either. That was a pure land fight, and the stego only missed one strike. Died very quickly.

[alpine plover]

Cause it ran its head into the deinos jaws

[silent comet]

Then u fought bots, 1 good deino is enough to kill stego

[alpine plover]

Which is just a terrible move

[cold palm]

if u are a decent stego player, there's literally no way in hell u can die, i got over 200hrs on stego and there's no deino on this planet that could kill me, i swear to god

[golden coral]

You are still wrong, no matter what you think.

[alpine plover]

Erik then log onto a server grow a deino and fight Andrei

[golden coral]

But if you're that good, I know a server where there might be people who are willing to prove you wrong, if you care for the challenge

[golden coral]

Sure.

[alpine plover]

Ye- that ^

The zoo with the tree grows is a pretty solid place

Free*

[cold palm]

my pleasure, i'll give him two bites in advance

[golden coral]

As if I'd need that :p

[alpine plover]

Thaaaat might be stretching it a bit

[golden coral]

You do realize a deino fourshots a stego on the head right? :p

[alpine plover]

Deinos 500 bite is a literal pitiful bite but headshots still hurt

[cold palm]

and who's gonna give u a free head bite?

[golden coral]

Well if you don't want to come near me then you can't kill me, and stego has to approach head first, or do you imagine you can just stretch your tail? ^^

[cold palm]

if the stego is not braindead, he's gonna turn and woop in less that 5 seconds, you either back down or go in even more and hope for a miraclew

[golden coral]

And if the deino do commit, then the stego will die, or be left with very little health.

[alpine plover]

Ummm no- a deino can’t face tank a stego tail if it’s biting the body

[golden coral]

But it won't be, it'll be biting the head?

[alpine plover]

And can’t face tank into headshots if it gets hit first-

[cold palm]

dude... u need more pics of killed deinos? i got a bunch, i'm here just trying to tell people that deinos are not good enough for their size, a size nerf would be perfect or smth

[golden coral]

Just go up the stegos ass :p

You'll reach the head on stego from there :p

[golden coral]

And Im telling you, you're wrong. Deino is perfectly fine, if not OP by now with the hitbox change.

I've explained, or tried to, on how a deino fights a stego, but apparently what I'm saying either means deino has to be a god, or a bad stego, and not just.. normal hunting methods

There were pair of deinos killing stegos before the latest patches too, it could be done, if you knew what you were doing.

[alpine plover]

Honestly the only time as a stego where I couldn’t hand a deino it’s last moments were when 8 of them formed a land pack and played very aggressively

[cold palm]

"pErFecTly FiNe" riiiiight, not my problem since i'm a stego main but if thats good enough for u i dont mind, keep getting bullied in water if thats what u like

[alpine plover]

And I don’t even play stego-

[cold palm]

u need a good deino in order to kill a stego, u need a braindead stego in order to wipe the entire river, thats the point

[golden coral]

Yes, deino is perfectly fine. If you get caught in a bad spot as deino, that's on you in 99% of the cases. And if you don't know how to position and fight, then that's also on you. Not that a deino should fight a stego in the first place, they can do so, bordering on too well, as it stands.

[alpine plover]

Good lord just log onto a server and fight already you two

[silent comet]

Deinos are too tanky, they can go on land and win against mostly every1 with stego as exeption and good deino will win against stego

[alpine plover]

Honestly kinda wanna see who wins the ground war

[cold palm]

this

[alpine plover]

Also as a steg I’ve come across Utah mega packs and carno mega packs and neither could stop my solo stego plays-

[silent comet]

1 good stego can kill 1 average deinos same goes for stego, 1 good utah can kill 1 average stego

[golden coral]

Sounds far more like bad megapacks than a good stego. Or they just overestimate and do not dare to fight properly.. :p

[cold palm]

dude, dont u understand that i killed 16 fully grown deinos just today? I'm not a real pro, i'm decent. Now out of those 16, not even one managed to bring me at least to 20% health. And i'm talking about today, i got over 100hrs only on the stego since update 3

[granite gate]

imo it should take more skill to be a carni anyways. in a 1v1 between an average stego and an average deino, the stego should win. also keep in mind deinos can literally 1 shot everything else on the roster other than stegos rn.

[alpine plover]

Eh I just hugged trees and rocks, they kinda couldn’t do anything. Neither got any bites in. Just walked in a circle around a tree and played a game of patience

[golden coral]

Pretty much. There's no need to be extremely good vs extremely bad. Stego vs deino is very neutral right now, with water giving deino advantage with lunge and eveything.

[golden coral]

How many were there?

[alpine plover]

8 adult carnos for that carno pack

And the Utah’s were a good 13 strong

[cold palm]

by drowning it u mean, they cant even 1 shot an utah

[golden coral]

@alpine ploverAnd yes, rocks I could see, trees, they can actually get around, just so you know. But if there were that many carnos, or even more utahs, they could have killed you.

They would have lost a few if you knew what you were doing

[granite gate]

yes, using their mechanics they can one shot everything

[golden coral]

But you would have been overpowered

[granite gate]

that is the point of their mechanics

is to use them ??

???

[alpine plover]

Ehhhh the carnos didn’t get a bite on me

And the Utah’s lost 6 of the pack while I was sitting pretty at 3/4 health and no bleed in the end

[silent comet]

Cuz the deinos were bad. Me as utah killed 2 full grown carnos in a 1v4, doesnt make the utah op and carno bad, the players underestimated 1 utah and braindeadly rushed it costing them a great mistake simple as that

[alpine plover]

They had to lose a pack mate to even get a bite on me, carnos just kinda did suck and I killed 3 of them

[golden coral]

@alpine ploverIt's 6 headshots to kill a stego for carno. And it's.. not that many pounces, even if you buck or get them off, + headshots from the utahs. So yeah, unless you had a really good defensive position, those utahs should have inflicted enough bleed to kill you after that many losses, + baiting and all.

[granite gate]

increasing bite force on deinos will just make people play them like facetankers. they should be played as lungers and ambushers. if you miss your ambush, you shouldnt get that kill. deinos were powerful back in their days, yes, but balance-wise for the game -- they should not be lil water rexes

[cold palm]

dude, its not like i can go into land and kill everything on sight as a deino, but thats pretty much it if u know how to bait deinos as a stego

[silent comet]

So u want to buff the players or what?

[granite gate]

you actually can as a deino, their alt bite takes no stam

[alpine plover]

Hm? I didn’t get baited once, that’s the issue. I baited them, I just waited till they got impatient and greedy and killed them

[golden coral]

So how did the deinos fight you then if 16 of them didn't manage to do much at all?

[alpine plover]

Simple as that

[granite gate]

ive seen deinos be full out of the water and kill like 4 utahs in a completely land-based fight

[cold palm]

if they dont attack, i go in the water and yes, i can go in water above my head level and still kick em with my tail, and if they lunge u can easily bait it and they're dead or almost dead

[mellow zenith]

and ?

[silent comet]

Ive seen today atleast 6 utahs or so die to 1 deino that was a mile from land

[golden coral]

Fair enough. But by sheer trading, the carnos could have killed you. Unless you were literally impossible to approach from the front at all. And the utahs could have done something similar. I'd have to see your specific defensive positioning to make sure on how to do it, but well, with that many, they have the ability to just throw carnos/utahs at you until you go down if they had wanted to.

[granite gate]

my point was that deinos absolutely CAN go on land and kill plenty of dinos lmao

[golden coral]

So they don't just swim away for some reason?

[granite gate]

was replying to this, forgot to actually reply

[alpine plover]

For the carnos I was tree hugging and killed 2 they started to get close to hitting so I buried my face in a rock and killed 1 more. With again no bites on me. They kept going for the head but it’s kinda easy to move a stegos head to avoid bites

[mellow zenith]

Well deino is the worst matchup for utah (still alt bite should cost stam on land tho)

[granite gate]

and stego is the worst matchup for stego

i mean

woops sorry had a stroke

*stego is the worst matchup for deino

[mellow zenith]

not really with the last location damage change but on paper yes

[cold palm]

I should not be able to go into their own territory as a stego and woop every single solo or duo deino in sight. That's not ok, that's not balance, say whatever you want about it, i got so much damn proof and so many kills that its simply impossible at this point to say anything different

[alpine plover]

And again a Utah had to get kill for another to get a bite on me. Not all those Utah’s wanted to die. Plus trees and stuff stopped the pouncing shenanigans

[granite gate]

i meant that they should be the worst matchup, not that they are rn

[golden coral]

Fair enough if you had a rock, trees are slightly less useful. But even so, I'd say the carnos could have done better. Also you don't oneshot carnos so, them not just backing off.. I don't know.

[mellow zenith]

agree

[alpine plover]

I’m well aware I don’t one shot em, I fought them lol. They’d rush in go for the head. I just did a little shimmy step and moved my head as I swung, I got body shots and avoided head shots

[granite gate]

plus a lot of people here arguing for balance arent really considering the fact that deinos can choose to not engage with stegos. they can run off into the water no problem. stegos cant choose to not engage with deinos since they need water so often

[golden coral]

You can't. You can't get them if you're swimming, and if you're not, they can move away easily in 99% of the cases. The balance is fine, and as stated, you can fight a stego as deino.

[alpine plover]

A stegos head is a small enough target to where if you look the right way when a bite is launched you can scoot around it

For carnos anyway

Deinos have big ole jaws

With a crappy bite

[golden coral]

True, you can juke a bit with moving/turning your head. But even so, the carnos can get you. But carno probably has the worst matchup vs stego now, utahs are still good, and deinos can fight them, even if Andrei here disagrees.

[cold palm]

i cant? then how did i manage to kill so many deinos in water? the water has to be around ur back spikes in order to swim, you'll be submerged under water and still swipe ur tail, thats how i killed those from #balance-feedback and a thousand more

[golden coral]

Because the deinos were stupid and did not stay in deep water? And they did not know how to fight a stego?

Your picture is one of those less good spots, and even there, you have ways. And if there were three of them and you on one side, you'd be dead if those deinos knew what they were doing.

[alpine plover]

Again I also disagree, I fought off 7 deinos before as a solo stego on land. Sure I wasn’t in the best condition and they came back fully healed and with another adult, but a single stego drove off a huge family of deino

[granite gate]

"on land" tho

if they came over to fight you on land, they're stupid

[golden coral]

I don't know what to tell you then... with the new changes, that would not happen if the deinos knew how to alt bite at all.. 7 of them, adults, at the same time?

[alpine plover]

Ye- erik likes to think deinos and stegos are 50=50 on land

[granite gate]

when was that fight tho, fatal?

[golden coral]

I did not say that, I said they can fight stegos far too good on land these days

[somber bone]

ALOT of deino players rn don’t know what alt bite even means

[granite gate]

the current hitbox changes heavily favor deinos

[cold palm]

they arent 50 50 in water if u can swipe ur tail

[alpine plover]

It was like a couple days ago

[golden coral]

@somber boneThat's very possible, but then that's a matter of knowledge.

[alpine plover]

Killed one deino too, I forgot to mention that

[granite gate]

did they just... sprint into your tail?

???

[golden coral]

In the water the deino has an advantage, on land stego has the advantage but deino can still inflict massive damage if it knows what it's doing.

[granite gate]

what did the deinos expect to accomplish by taking you on on land?

[somber bone]

Trust me the amount of deinos that ask me what does alt bite mean is stupidly funny

[alpine plover]

They were already on land I just approached 3 called and we started a fight

[cold palm]

it has an advantage if the stego is swimming, but it can go pretty deep without doint it, that's what i'm saying

[alpine plover]

I kept my head away from their jaws, avoided being ganged by the group and played clever

[mellow zenith]

Yeah and i hate that

[alpine plover]

While getting headshots on each of the deinos

[cold palm]

he doesnt get it, but he will if i ever meet him and he wants the smoke

[alpine plover]

Anywho I’m gonna goooo, got stuff to do.

[golden coral]

Even if you can, it won't change the matchup that much. Im pretty sure I can take you on, despite not being good at deino at all.

[cold palm]

good luck i guess, gotta go for now cya

[granite gate]

if a stego plays well it should absolutely win imo

[alpine plover]

And also stamina management on stegos honestly isn’t that hard. If you run out of stam in the middle of a fight as a steg, your kinda brain dead. Same with letting a deino bite your head like 4 times in a row

[granite gate]

especially on land

stegos irl literally had the survival model of "stupid but strong" -- a smart one should be even more formidable

[golden coral]

It's not as hard as you make it out to be :p

[alpine plover]

Ehhhh both are preeeetty easy

Never said they were hard :0

Just dumb players let both happen and die

[golden coral]

It's not about being dumb, it's about if you're in the fight, how it goes.

Sure you could walk away from the deinos I guess, or they fought you one at a time somehow

[alpine plover]

Cause 1 that deino killed a stego on the beach. The hell is a stego even doing on the beach? Even better, what’s a deino doing in the beach?

THEY BOTH LOVE TO DRINK!

[dim crown]

Ouch!!

[golden coral]

But there's no way seven of them loses to one stego, even on land, if they actually act somewhat smart

[granite gate]

tbf a bunch of deinos bumrushing a stego instead of using strategy is also d u m b o f t h e d e i n o s. so they got punished

[golden coral]

Even if they did, the sheer amount of damage/bodies would make the deinos win in that brawl.

[somber bone]

The deinos probably didn’t know what they were doing

[granite gate]

simple as that. should a stego win a 1v7 against a bunch of adult deinos? no. however, increasing deino's damage upfront will only lead to face tankers, not more interesting battles. not all carni apexes need to be shitty legacy rexes......

and keep in mind that for a deino, a failed ambush should mean they've failed their hunt. they are ambushers. they are apexes, yes, but their primary prey is meant to be midtiers and not other apexes

[golden coral]

@somber boneAgain, possibly. I'm just saying that if the math isn't horribly off, one stego vs 7 adult deinos, even on land, would wear the stego out, even if it killed them one by one or something.

[golden coral]

Of course it shouldnt, and I'm questioning how that happened, since nothing I can figure out would allow for that unless the deinos.. had no idea what so ever what they were doing, had no coordination, and no plan at all.

[somber bone]

Ik am not disagreeing with u i just said these deinos probably didn’t know what they were doing

[alpine plover]

They didn’t, I jumped up in the open and they all ran down the little shallow river thingy after trying to bite me only for 2 to get put in critical and 1 to die. The rest ran and I wallowed and healed as they scurried into the water

[golden coral]

Oh okay, so they didn't all fight you then. And only one actually died. I'll keep in mind to ask for better description of the fights in the future, since that seems neccesary to actually understand what happened. Apologies for misunderstanding the first time around.

[alpine plover]

The others ran for some reason or another but I basically face tanked 3 deinos at once, heavily injured 2 and killed one. Mind you face tank isn’t face tanking. I got a hit on each of the deinos before I got bit by each, and even then I avoiding getting hit in the head while dishing out the pain

And again- I hardly ever play stego. Just decided hey, I see everyone else having fun with it! Let’s have some fun too

[golden coral]

When did you say this was? Was the hitboxes changed? Did they use alt bites?

[alpine plover]

Hit boxes were changed, one tried alt biting- got a mouth full of a thagomizer

And then promptly died

[golden coral]

From one hit?

[alpine plover]

Nope, just when it tried to alt bite my tail was all it bit while I jabbed it down its throat

It tried to run then bait and get a headshot

[golden coral]

So it wasn't up close then, just reaching your tail?

[alpine plover]

No- i was chasing it, it went to whip and bite my head, but I had turned before it did, and shoved my tail down its throat

Called anticipation

With it- your invincible

[golden coral]

Cause the deinos have to commit to make it work, they can't try to bait or juke or anything, it's a matter of getting up the stegos ass/sides and just altbite away.

Even so, deino does not die in one shot.

You can anticipate it, it won't save you

[alpine plover]

Good lord as I said it was running- I hit it a few times before that

[golden coral]

Right, so it already messed up earlier then

[alpine plover]

And then it went for a headshot- and I killed it

Yeah, it was the ballsyest of the deino, probably was the only one that knew what it was doing

Still killed it while being attacked by a few others

But at the killing point the other two had bailed

To damaged to keep it up. And it was a good thing too, I had about 1/3 of my health left and about 1/4 of my stam

If all had rushed me, I’d have just run. Not about to waste 5 hours of bush simulator

[golden coral]

Reasonable.. :p

Growing a stego is not entertaining at all, as of yet

[alpine plover]

Growing nothing is entertaining

It’s exactly like legacy

[golden coral]

Well, as carno or utah I think you do have to go get food, that could make for some excitement :p

Deino got fish so

[alpine plover]

Camp out near water and kill children to eat

[golden coral]

But growing a stego or tenno is.. very meh

Part of why I'm not really playing right now, I love stego, but cba to grow one, I'm.. so bad at afkgrowing ^^

[alpine plover]

I just play other games while afk growing

[golden coral]

I would, but A, I don't think my laptop would like that and B, I just can't help myself from wanting to check in all the time, I'm so bad at just going away and letting fate take over :p

[alpine plover]

I just play my switch or Xbox or something like that

[golden coral]

@proper zephyr Sounds like it would make bleed too good, and screw over any critter that relies on stamina for their main attack(s), especially any of the defensive critters.

[proper zephyr]

shit yeah i never thought of it that way

it just feels like (to me) that its just, there in a fight
not something that your really worrysome of, just "oh hey, im bleeding"

ig part of the equation might be that we don't have any real dedicated bleeders rn

[golden coral]

@proper zephyrThat could partially be it yes. Carno knocks down/finishes off with damage. Deino grabs and drowns (and fights), it would be utah with pounce, but they currently have their issues with that (and they can headbite instead). If utahs got their dismount helped out, and maybe a nerf to headbiting, then I imagine it would be far more noticable, at least vs stegos, and probably tennos too.

[proper zephyr]

yeah true, i fought a pack of 6 or 7 utahs that pounced and bleed was way more noticeable then with headbitters

[golden coral]

Yeah, it's more that headbites are too good in general there and pounce being too dangerous to use with the dismount. But change that around, and you'd probably notice the bleed effect pretty soon, even if you get them off, since they can harass quite well (tennos are a bit more scary but plan accordingly.. :p)

[granite gate]

i thought utahs are meant to be bleeders mostly

since their bites dont do much damage-?

[golden coral]

They are. But dismount issue means pounce isn't that good to use, and headbites are apparently perfectly useful, so fix the first and possibly adjust the second and it should end up better in general.

[granite gate]

tru

[hollow canyon]

Idk if I have to say anything else - it was a 1v1 btw.