#balance-feedback-discussion

1 messages · Page 225 of 1

grave veldt
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ur dino shouldnt need to rely on someone else to be viable

golden coral
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The problem with it, is that nothing should require something else to be viable. It's as simple as that, it goes for both carnis and herbis. And we're not talking about hunting/punching up, we're talking about surviving an 1v1 encounter. That's like saying utah needs a pack to hunt at all, that would not be viable either.

frosty heron
hollow canyon
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No, herds should not be a thing to be relied on and herbivores shouldn't be pushed into this garbage playstyle of mixherding with a bunch of other species in a giant untouchable mega-herd. It's absolutely atrocious. They should all be capable solo-animals and they should be encouraged to compete with one another.

golden coral
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Utah needing a pack to hunt a stego is fine, as long as a solo utah has other things to hunt on it's own.

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And yeah, no herbi mixing either please, it's not better than carni mixing :p

grave veldt
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so

golden coral
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Yeh, but this is a game Turok. If there's two rexes, sure, a solo stego is dead, numbers do matter, but in that cause, numbers can be countered. If one side needs numbers in the first place, then we got an issue.

frosty heron
true ginkgo
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An animal which needs a group to be functional and not dead meat will be less popular, and therefore unable to find groups. An animal great solo will be more popular and therefore able to find groups.

It's like para and allo in legacy. Realistically it would be a small pack of allos hunting a large herd. But in game you end up with 15 allos swamping a lone para.

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If i'm playing a solo stego and a rex walks over the hill, there should be more I can do than tab out and go make a cup of tea while I die.

grave veldt
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using number as an advatange is cool but needing the numbers shows ur creature is unviable

alpine plover
golden coral
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Also Turok, I'm fine with running from things as well, I've no issue with stego running from a spino, if it's faster. It's that we don't think stego will be faster than rex or giga, and thus it has to be able to fight them off. It's not about wanting to destroy everything, but wanting to have a decent chance of survival.

golden coral
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It was a pretty op critter irl

frosty heron
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I never said I want a simulator

grave veldt
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if we wanted realism rex would out trot everything and only trike would be able to defend itself and maybe anky idk tho

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anky was pretty small tho

true ginkgo
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Stego was slower than sauropods... It's like the king of slow.

alpine plover
true ginkgo
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No way is stego fleeing from rex or giga.

grave veldt
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stego running away from a rex would a meme and a massive joke lol

frosty heron
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But same I don't want inmortal dinos to play as in the current state of the game. That's my whole point about this discussion, people still asking for buffs for the Herbivores when the amount of Carnivores I see dead everyday doubles the amount of Herbivores

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I rarely see adult Stegos dead out there

grave veldt
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i rarley see stegos at all

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or tenos

ebon kraken
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That’s because theres more carnivore players than herbivore players

true ginkgo
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Maybe stego could roll into a ball and use its plates like a giant wheel. 100kph top speed?

grave veldt
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give stego pounce too

frosty heron
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I do see and hear a lot of Stegos, usually in packs of 3 or more

golden coral
# frosty heron But same I don't want inmortal dinos to play as in the current state of the game...

That's fair enough. I just don't think it's fair to say that I want stego invincible because I think it should take 2 more utahs to hunt one. Or that carnos do not need to hunt it, because utahs can. Carnos should cull the dryo and utah population primarily, and then tenno/carno secondarily. Utahs in turn should cull the stego population primarily, and then carno/tenno secondarily. With lone utahs hunting dryos/other utahs perhaps.

hollow canyon
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I've seen a couple of Stegosaurs on teutonic today. They were pretty safe and killed quite a few of Carnos. Before anyone asks about Utahs - the Stegos were mixpacking with the Utahs protecting them from Carnos so yeh, there's that.

golden coral
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And I would be fine with limiting stegos to pairs, and maybe work on grazing so they can't just sit somewhere near water forever.

true ginkgo
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Stego will probrably be one of the animals which gets the most balance tweaks over the games lifecycle. Carno/utah/tenoto can just run once allo+ turn up. Stego cant.

golden coral
grave veldt
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stego imo should be able to one shot carnos

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body and head not tail

frosty heron
ebon kraken
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Stego is just not really supposed to be in game yet. Utahs and carnos should not be killing it often but we don’t have larger predators like allo yet

hollow canyon
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I see your point Turok, in general I agree that Stego shouldn't be an untouchable juggernaut in the current game(although honestly it shouldn't have been added at this point yet). I understand however the point that people are worried that if it gets shot in the kneecaps now there's a risk it will be left in this state further on which would be unacceptable.

grave veldt
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stego shoudnt be invincible

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but it needs sum tweaks

hollow canyon
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And yea mixpacking happens all the time. It's unfortunate, I've still killed the majority of the Utahs that were mixing with them.

grave veldt
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yes mixpacking happens a lot sadly since theres no rules

frosty heron
# grave veldt stego imo should be able to one shot carnos

If you make Stegos 1 shot Carnos you're making it inmortal, I can accept to make them leave Carnos at very low hp with 1 hit but never 1 shot, that's just a nono when trying to hunt a Stego, basically you're making them almost untouchable

hollow canyon
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I think it might change after update 5 when diets are introduced.

frosty heron
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Carnos should then land all the bites perfectly with no mistakes to kill a Stego

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Or youre dead

grave veldt
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yup

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becuz carnos shouldnt be hunting stegos

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thats allos job

frosty heron
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Theres no balance on that my dude

grave veldt
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there is balance on that

true ginkgo
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There is balance on it.... if stego wasn't in game till allo was added.

frosty heron
grave veldt
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stegos 2 shotting allos is fine

true ginkgo
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Adding a large tier animal when there is only smalls did this.

ebon kraken
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They should have stuck with smaller things and waited on stego

grave veldt
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stego is basically what happens when u got only medium tiers max and then u add a fat herbi to it

true ginkgo
ebon kraken
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Yep

grave veldt
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welp nontheless we got stego now so lol

golden coral
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Should just take out stego and hypsi really :p

true ginkgo
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hypsi isn't a balance nightmare.

frosty heron
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Why Hypsi tho?

golden coral
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The first can't be balanced, the second doesn't really do anything.. :p

grave veldt
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stego if added in with other large carnivores makes it a lot easier to balance

frosty heron
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Hypsi can't fight but on exchange you don't need to grow it

hollow canyon
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I think that it wouldn't have been all that well ecosystem-wise with just Carno and Hypsi. Hypsi's a meme-dino. I see them once in a blue moon. There should've been another animal added in this update. Galli perhaps?

true ginkgo
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Deino is fine as at least it's limited to water, and will be being eaten by other deinos.

frosty heron
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You spawn as Adult

ebon kraken
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Kentro should be added and stego taken out until other big ones are added

golden coral
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I just don't see much of a reason for the hypsi being there, it doesn't have good things to jump on, the spit is, strange, and yeah, no growth, it's not a survival critter, its a sandbox critter thrown in :p

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I don't really mind it being in, I just find it a little weird I think

grave veldt
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deino is a waterlocked apex so it just adds danger to water which a good touch

frosty heron
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Might be but is a good choice for those who wants to troll

golden coral
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Or yeah, maybe as Aken said, it's a living meme more or less :p

true ginkgo
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I mean yeah I think things that small are a bit pointless, but honestly hypsi hasn't brought issues like stego has.

golden coral
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But I don't really mind it, and I guess with Deino coming, that might help out the stego situation

frosty heron
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Also makes it a good choice of food to Utah and Carno juveniles

ebon kraken
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I never see hypsis tbh

frosty heron
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Since Dryos will KOS you

hollow canyon
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It hasn't brought issues because even if it dies nobody really cares.

golden coral
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True enough Turok, evil dryos are angry all the time xD

grave veldt
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theres supposed to be stat tweaks when update 3 comes out so lets just see

true ginkgo
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Hopefully deino will be eating stegos, but it will still not give a proper feel of their balance like a large land carnivore will.

golden coral
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I don't mind the hypsi, I just think it's a little odd, that's all I guess

grave veldt
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might be easier to balance stego when deino is in

true ginkgo
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I love the toxic dryo AI pepehappy

golden coral
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Well, deino would be another big predator that very much can kill stegos, and that would maybe help for balancing out vs carno and so on

grave veldt
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apart from all that teno is so slow as a juvie

ebon kraken
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Stego should be buffed only when a larger predator is added so that there’s not over population

frosty heron
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Deino could be a potential example of inmortal choice of Dino when it comes out aswell

true ginkgo
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Deino is still very limited in terrain, and as it's slow it's not going to be testing stegos balance in the same way allo/acro/rex will.

golden coral
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Possibly, I'm curious to see how they will do it

frosty heron
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Because if you stay in water or close to it there's nothing that would kill you

true ginkgo
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At least deinos will eat each other.

grave veldt
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also its stamina is trash on land so

frosty heron
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Yeah it will be a cannibal Croc fest

golden coral
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Herbis need to compete with each other more

grave veldt
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at least in the stream the stamina was bad

golden coral
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That would also help with stego population a bit :p

true ginkgo
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Stegos rarely kill each other. While carnivore apexes in legacy will kill each other almost all the time.

ebon kraken
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First days of deino being added will be chaos

grave veldt
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yes when herbis dont compete with each other then they all mix group

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and then their untouchable

frosty heron
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To make Stegos compete they should add another chonky herb to the roster

grave veldt
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hopefully diet system changes thta

golden coral
grave veldt
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thor

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that*

golden coral
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Nah, won't help Turok, there's no need to compete cause grazing is perfectly fine to survive on :p

frosty heron
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Well right

true ginkgo
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Herbis can't actually mix any easier than carnis in evrima. Carni players just don't seem to mix though.

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Like nothing physically stopping utahs and carnos packing in evrima.

ebon kraken
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Make a timer on grazing

grave veldt
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stego is hard to mix with just cuz its friendly fire dmg is scary

golden coral
# frosty heron Well right

I've seen these herds of 4 stegos, and then random tennos/dryos, + all sorts of juvies at center, next to the river. They just sit around there, grazing and that's it. Perfectly fine for hours, unless the local megapack gives them trouble :p

hollow canyon
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According to Punchpacket this might change with update 5 - they will be likely introducing plants that you will want to go after. And you won't be willing to share them for the most part. This might make it a bit more likely for the herbivores to compete with one another, which I think would be very healthy for the game rather than the current approach where they just sit afk and graze-forever in a giant megaherd.

grave veldt
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^^^^^^^^

hollow canyon
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I've already suggested what could be done about grazing - I think this mechanic just needs an outright rework.

true ginkgo
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Yep diets will mean the tenotos want to go one direction and the stegos another.

grave veldt
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grazing is uh

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questionable

hollow canyon
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The animations are fine and they can stay however it should work completely differently.

ebon kraken
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You could technically never look for food as a herbivore

hollow canyon
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I'd suggest to make it a toggle "stance" which causes you to either stop losing food as long as you're grazing or decrease the food loss to close to 0.

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You shouldn't generally be regaining food this way.

true ginkgo
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yeah but that's going to butcher your growth time and and perk bonuses as a herbi.

grave veldt
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i think certain dinos could be specifically grazers such as how stegos bio says it likes the plains

true ginkgo
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if you only survive on grazing.

alpine plover
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Grazing as a concept is supposed to stave off starving
Grazing rn makes you immortal as herbi from starvation

frosty heron
hollow canyon
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It would allow people to hang around in an area while they're waiting for something however at a risk. Your camera gets locked and you're unable to pay that much attention to your surroundings.

grave veldt
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its definitly boring just sitting there

ebon kraken
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No I’m saying you should not be able to survive off of grazing

true ginkgo
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I think surviving off grazing will be less of an issue with diets/perks.

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currently there is no downside, while later on there will be

golden coral
alpine plover
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yeah, right now, theres no incentive to explore or seek out vegetation when you can survive on a bit of grass forever

grave veldt
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^

frosty heron
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Hopefully diet system gets rid of that

golden coral
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Also because it feels a bit.. well, why do I bother finding a good spot with bushes, when no one really cares for it. :p

frosty heron
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I can see some current "Hot spots" at Evrima where local megapacks meet because there's a river and grass to graze next to it

alpine plover
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With diets
Some dinos should be cool with grazing while other can't survive for too long off it

golden coral
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I think grazing should at best give you 5% or so food, enough to stop and sniff for actual food, and to run for short bursts, but not more than that.

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I don't know Nacen, not unless grazing becomes limited in some other way, so you have to find new spots and stuff

grave veldt
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maybe grazing in an area can be limited and after its gone u need to move on?

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like the color of the grass changes depending on how much % of the grass is left for food

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just an idea

tall bronze
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Grazing won't give any nutrition once diets come, so I think your dino will eventually get weak if you eat it too much. You need real food.

grave veldt
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i think its best to wait till the diet system

tall bronze
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I wish it were update 4 ;-;

grave veldt
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same

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im really curious on the stuff apart from deino and ptera

tall bronze
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I mean Punch said it's definitely possible to move stuff like diets around, but I doubt it with how big 4 already is

grave veldt
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i mean with the massive map stuff

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it seems very unlikely

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i mean they could do it

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but thats like 6-8 months update

tall bronze
alpine plover
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I still feel like stego should be a grazer instead of having to look for bushes

sinful cove
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Stego and anky both seem like they'd be fine just eating a fuckton of low quality vegetation rather than seeking out specific things

grave veldt
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i think anky would benefit most

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considering its playstyle

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they would need to rework grazing tho

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so anky doesnt always have grass around

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maybe add nodes around the grass so when the grass turns a brownish yellowish color it means u won't gain any food from it

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or something to make grazing better

hazy cipher
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steggo is OP with that tail

alpine plover
grave veldt
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lol

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but fr tho

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its easy to dodge especially as a utah

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although good stegos make it much more difficult

lean shoal
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yeah stego cant put any pressure on what attacks it because it cant safely get closer to them. you have to be defensive.

true ginkgo
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Definitely think stego should have a limited arc swing while walking/trotting. Can only go ~20 degrees each direction so can't be used offensivly. But can be used while the stego is walking away to stop things chasing it from behind.

grave veldt
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Yea I agree with this

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Having a moving attack helps a lot

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Especially if u wanna keep moving but move to a different enviorment such as plains to tree type biomes

tender hatch
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Switch perks with diets so we can atleast get another update faster with things to promote gameplay

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Or just switch the updates in general

lean lotus
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you think diets would be out faster than perks ?

tender hatch
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More likely depending on how big and complex the diets will be

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Plus we need perks that would be balanced for every dinosaur
So y'know, it doesn't turn into BoB 2.0

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So that'll probably be more testing needed compared to diets

lean lotus
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I mean, BoB's built up as a game where perks are a radical part of your dinosaur, and grant enormous replayability if the game were actually balanced, I don't think we know what "kind" of perks the devs want for the game.

tender hatch
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Well yeah

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I'm just saying

lean lotus
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No, of course, your statement still rings true.

tender hatch
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As it stands now diets seem to be a more faster approach- ah okay

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Well atleast you arent gonna smite me for saying these things like someone did 👀

lean lotus
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It ain't wrong, was just curious on the logic behind the statement.

tender hatch
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Ah, no worries

grave veldt
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whomst has summoned me from my bed

grave veldt
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how'd u even find my message lol

grave veldt
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Cora no matter what

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carnis will always be more then herbis

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its just natural

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the devs can make herbis more interesting

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especially with the diet update

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but most players will choose carni

leaden osprey
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Not in life no. But I know people who play carnivores just to try to compete

grave veldt
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life and the isle is different

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the isle is a dino game that has to be balanced

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and more ppl will always be carni then herbi

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nothing u can rly do

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apart from adding stuff to herbi gameplay to make it more interesting

leaden osprey
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No not more playable, more characters. In server like 15 Herbies and 3 carnivore balance. Closer to natural balance

grave veldt
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nah thats never gonna work lol

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ppl will get mad that they cant play as a carni

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it'll hurt the game

leaden osprey
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Hey just throwing the idea out there. Tried of the cannibalism lol

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True, don't want to hurt the game.

grave veldt
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well soon canabalism is gonna give debuffs

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whenever diets gome out

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or gore

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idk which one its going with

leaden osprey
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Just thought it might be good option for server setup, as in a choice

grave veldt
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i mean

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as a server option

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maybe

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i get what ur saying but a lot of ppl like playing carni so i dont think it would work out too well

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maybe as a server option

leaden osprey
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A lot of people want to be a rex, that's given. But big herbivores would outnumber big herbivores like 500:1

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Not asking for that balance!

grave veldt
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yea but balance should come before realism

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if u do it as a server option it might be ok

leaden osprey
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But something where a few carnivores prey on a bunch of terrified herbivores

grave veldt
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cannabalism is high rn becuz theres literally only 2 carnis

leaden osprey
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Yes, hoping for balance

grave veldt
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and 2 actual medium herbis the carnis can eat

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and one is stego which is much harder to kill

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wait till more playables are added and new features cannabalism will drop a decent amount

leaden osprey
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I noticed: legacy had more carnivores than herbivores, I think that's why people are still playing legacy more. Because there's only 2 EVRIMA carnivore options. People like to play carnivores. They like to feel able to defend themselves

grave veldt
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its just natural ppl wanna play carni

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includes me too i wanna spino rly badly whenever thats released

leaden osprey
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I do too!

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People play Utah, die. Play as carno, die. No other options if those don't suit your play style or you get frustrated. Then players go to legacy

grave veldt
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yup some people like the bigger apex carnivore more

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actually a lot of ppl do

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when rex is added theres gonna be a lot and i mean a lot of players playing it

leaden osprey
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Yup. Lots of carnage. Rexes are big eaters too. Feels like bodies don't give enough food yet

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Two Utahs with a tenno should be good for a while, but it's gone quick.

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Probably fixed soon

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But I think that's why not only surplus killing, but carnivores constantly hunting

grave veldt
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well teno is actually in a nice spot rn it has a good skillful matchup with carno

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and its almost impossible to kill a teno 1v1 with utah unless the teno is bad

leaden osprey
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I enjoy playing a tenno

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And I die to single Utah lol

grave veldt
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teno is pretty fun yea especially now

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ha

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well

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fighting utahs isnt too hard

leaden osprey
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Getting better...

grave veldt
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be completely defensive

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a utah cant face tank u

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itll die too quick

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keeping ur stamina is the best way to win the fight

leaden osprey
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I did find that. I survive more these days as a tenno

grave veldt
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try and use kicks instead of tail slam on utah

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with kicks its easier to recover

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and u can move while doing it

leaden osprey
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True

grave veldt
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honestly

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stamina is the key to teno

leaden osprey
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I'm just hoping they fix dietary needs soon. Could use some work

grave veldt
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diets are coming i think in update 6

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or 7

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lemme check

leaden osprey
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I thought they moved it up? Is have to check

grave veldt
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oh i was wrong

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its update 5

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sooner then i thought

leaden osprey
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Yes, but it's a bit ahead. They need more carnivores so people have options. Carnivores can be challenging but people like the play better, often

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Well gone off topic, should prob go into general. Thanks for responding!

grave veldt
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np

hallow rose
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posting the same feedback

hollow canyon
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I'll just point out that de facto there are just as many herbivores as carnivores in Evrima. Carnivores have Carnotaurus and Utahraptor to Herbivores' Tenontosaurus and Stegosaurus. Yea Dryo and Hypsi "are" in the game but... they are meme animals. People just pick them to run around and mess with other players for a moment(and Hypsi's just a better choice for that out of the two, Dryo's kind of a worthless animal and I barely ever see someone play it).

gaunt jackal
hollow canyon
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I've got no idea, I've played Dryo like twice or so and I did it just to explore the map

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I don't recall how fast it was eating up the bushes

grave veldt
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I don’t think I’ve even touched dryo

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Even in legacy I didn’t

hollow canyon
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Y, as I said - meme animal. I see herds of herbivores quite often and they barely ever have any Dryos. I guess I saw... one Dryo that was definitely a player in the last 2 weeks or so?

frosty heron
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On Evrima I see same amount of Herbs and Carnis, too many Carnos that might be true but after all its the strongest Carnivore, I played Tenonto today and the amount of Herbivores in a same area was insane for only 3 Carnos and 5 Utahs around

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Can't say the same about Legacy, people prefer to hunt over playing herbs since there's not much enjoyable stuff you can do as herb there, the occasional fight could happen but that's it

sinful cove
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Anything biting the thagomizer should take a large amount of damage. Larger dinos taking more damage because they'd be chomping down on it more

lean shoal
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yeah base value + percentage of damage inflicted by attacker.

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like 300 base for stego and then like 20% of damage taken reflected.

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would be even better on kentro.

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probably like 150 base but 50% of damage inflicted returned.

grave veldt
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yea i would say a medium amount of dmg

lean shoal
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also bleed.

grave veldt
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50% of the attackers dmg and bleed

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that works

lean shoal
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not attackers bleed a flat amount of bleed because your biting a literal spear.

grave veldt
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actually giving stego passive dmg on the spikes will fix the hitbox issue carno can abuse

true ginkgo
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Yep biting the thagomiser itself should go real bad for the one doing the biting.

grave veldt
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actually this should go for any horned/spikey bit of a dino

sinful cove
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Yea and it should preferably be added when/before kentro is released

grave veldt
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^^^

lean shoal
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yeah kentro will definitely be the most avid user of the mechanic.

grave veldt
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def

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spikes everywhere

rancid bluff
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legacy anky and stego vs any apex

golden coral
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Anky with no legbreak, and I don't recall, but I think spino isn't that speedy, so possible to run from it maybe, or at least take severe punishment while attacking, in both cases for that matter. Rex and giga matchups are irrelevant in this case.

hollow canyon
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Alright - does anyone know how many bites it takes to kill a Stego by biting its tail as a Carno? It was said that it takes 23 bites I believe. However from what I can see it takes around 7-8 bites on the tip of the tail.

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I'm not quite certain as to how much hp Stego has but according to every calculation it's between 4k and 5k. It doesn't really matter how much it is exactly though since Carno with its 350N biteforce needs less than 10 bites on its tail to kill it which means that the multiplier has to be over x1.0 for the tail. Now... why the hell is that? Or is there an additional factor that we're not aware of that changes how much damage each bite deals? Devs, how do the damage calculations work in this game in the end?

alpine plover
#

While it shouldnt be a thing, saying Carno ''easily'' kills Stego with tail bites is ridiculous lol. The tail biting thing doesnt work 1v1 since the Stego can always face the Carno. If the Stego is good and isnt easily baited to attack, its almost impossible for Carno to win 1v1.

Im pointing this out because the fearmongering over ''Carno can kill Stegos easily with unbeatable strategy!!!!!!! Watse of 5 hours!!!!!'' is gonna discourage alot of people from playing Stego. And then with no Stegos people wont play Tenonto or Utah, and then its just Carnos.

calm ibex
#

you should watch the video linked earlier on one of the feedback channels, the thagomize goes through the carno and does no dmg

lean shoal
#

yeah the hitbox on stegos tail is massive and the damage window on the attack is tiny. the carno can wait you out and just wait for you to swing and get away for free by attacking the end of the animal that should destroy it.

hollow canyon
#

Idk if I would say "easily" but it's something that shouldn't be taking place in its current form. I also wouldn't say that people wouldn't play Tenonto or Utah if there were no Stegos. Overall It should take far more bites on the tail to kill a Stego. The numbers I've counted so far are way too low.

alpine plover
calm ibex
#

on the first try i agree, but second he literally hit the torso of carno

#

and it did jack shit

alpine plover
alpine plover
calm ibex
#

and for me its very difficult to try it out myself since we dont have sandbox 🙂 so instead we have to rely on other less competent people to try this shit out for us since sandbox is just impossible to be had at the moment

alpine plover
alpine plover
calm ibex
#

if you want to counter "fear mongering", i'd suggest on making footage of how to counter that strat and link it here

alpine plover
#

Well that would require me to be good at video making and editing, which I am not hah hah

calm ibex
#

well that makes 2 of us

#

in the end of the day its easier to believe a video you can see with your own eyes than trust on someone saying that its okay

grave veldt
#

the angle of which u attack is the key for stego

#

certain angles r faster then others

alpine plover
hollow canyon
#

I mean I agree that a good Stego will most of the time handle a Carno doing this but the issue is that... how good does a Stego player have to be to survive this? I don't think that a Carno shold be taking down a Stego 1v1 even if the latter is rather inexperienced. 2v1? Sure they should probably be able to pull this off but the margin of error for the Stego should be much higher than "get hit 8 times on the tip of the tail and you keel over"

#

My initial post was also to a large extent a complaint about locational damage just outright being weird for Stego.

grave veldt
#

tbh its should be more of a 3v1 or maybe even 4v1 cuz allo should be doing the 1 or 2v1 with stego. carno isnt rly supposed to go after stego in the first place

hollow canyon
#

Carno kills a Stego that way with 8 bites from what I've seen

grave veldt
#

on the tail too which doesnt make sense

hollow canyon
#

That implies that Stego either has a 1.0 locational multiplier for its tail and ~2800 health or it has a multiplier higher than 1.0 on its tail.

grave veldt
#

if they give passive dmg to the tail when u bite it it should fix the issue

#

this should go for any spiked dino

hollow canyon
#

And I mean I'm quite certain Stego has more than 2800 health which means it must have a 1.0+ multiplier or there's an additional factor to how much damage is dealt(that the community is unaware of)

alpine plover
hollow canyon
#

Give me a second

grave veldt
#

no dont face the carno

#

be sideways

hollow canyon
#

Count the bites here

#

How many times do you see Carno land on the Stego here?

#

It's irrelevant that the Stego plays badly, I'm only talking about how many bites it takes here

alpine plover
#

Carno wasnt landing tail shots all the time, I counted two body shots already.

grave veldt
#

around 11 tail bites with 1-2 body shots

hollow canyon
#

Even with bodyshots - Stego needs to have a multiplier of over 1.0 on the body or the tail for Carno to kill it with 8 bites

#

There are no 11 bites there

grave veldt
#

count em again

alpine plover
#

Okay

#

5 Bodyshots

#

7 tailshots

#

Unless im bad at counting thats what I noted

grave veldt
#

dang i swear one of the stegos attacks just clipped through

alpine plover
#

Though I do agree its ridiculous how teh Carno is landing body shots from so far way lol, but Im unsure if its a Carno hitbox problem or Stego hurtbox problem.

hollow canyon
#

Alright I counted 9 bites

grave veldt
#

either way attacking the tail spike of a stego shouldnt be rewarding

hollow canyon
#

I was counting the number of times Stego did the audio feedback for getting hit, imo it's impossible to tell when those bites land just by looking at what's happening there unless you observe the damage screen changes

#

Either way that's way too few

grave veldt
#

^

alpine plover
#

Which is why Stegos should stop spamming tail swipes so much

grave veldt
#

yea i got that

#

desync issues dont help either so

#

sometimes they help a lot

alpine plover
#

But honestly, until they add Allo or something, they should keep Stego the way it is barring the tail hits. Yea, I know Stego isnt supposed to lose to Carno but to balance the game out I think it should still have the chance to kill it.

grave veldt
#

everything should have a chance to kill anything

alpine plover
#

Yea

grave veldt
#

how big is that chance is where balance comes in

hollow canyon
#

I'm fine with Carnos being capable of taking Stego down... for now. But I really think the locational for Stego is messed up because it just dies way too quickly.

grave veldt
#

ye

#

this will get much worse when bigger things r added too

lean shoal
#

carno needs like 12-14 bites to stegos tail to kill it.

#

thats a minimum

hollow canyon
#

Gharial do you mean right now, or that it should need 12-14 bites?

lean shoal
#

right now its about 12-14

#

maybe more

alpine plover
hollow canyon
#

I really don't think so from everything I've seen

lean shoal
#

from what i tested it took the carno about that many bites to kill me.

alpine plover
#

Carno need sto get lucky like 14 times. Stego only needs to get lucky twice. I think thats fair.

grave veldt
lean shoal
grave veldt
#

u shouldnt be getting lucky u should be skillful

hollow canyon
#

Yea but this is a 1v1 scenario you're talking about, typically it is done 2v1 with one Carno distracting the Stego in the front threatening its head while the other one stays at its tail.

lean shoal
#

the damage window on the tail is super small with it being a laggy move and having a really bad hitbox.

hollow canyon
#

That's how the people who came up with this described it.

lean shoal
#

stego only wins if the carno gets desprate or fucks up.

alpine plover
#

Its an expression but nevermind, its mostly about skill yea.

lean shoal
#

carno is overtuned stego is weak.

alpine plover
#

Carno is overtuned yea but Stego isnt as bad as you say

grave veldt
#

stego isnt what it should be right now but im sure it'll change when other stuff comes out

lean shoal
#

carno - utah - tenonto - dryo - hypsi - stego for viability rn.

alpine plover
#

Uh no

grave veldt
#

no stego isnt that bad

lean shoal
#

stego takes much longer to grow for an animal that struggles to fight off both carnivores.

alpine plover
#

You are exaggerating the situation alot lmao

#

Also

#

Weve been basing off the fights if both were in the open

#

In Survival Stegos will intellegently turtle near water or trees.

lean shoal
#

dryo can run and hide and grows fast hypsi is pretty easy to kill but has no growth tenonto dosent like fighting carno much but can manage it and utah and carno are pretty strong right now.

alpine plover
#

Doing this makes the matchup very very hard for Carnivores

#

Actually makes it impossible for Utahs

grave veldt
#

well anyways when update 3 comes out carno is getting smaller losing 200kg and yea

lean shoal
#

the tail biting bug dosent care about how the stego stands. stego starts swimming at the same depth as carno and cant really fight bakc in the water. carno turns so fast it can avoid getting stuck pretty easy.

#

200 kg means nothing to stego.

alpine plover
#

I said turtling near water

grave veldt
#

carno getting smaller changes stuff speed changes ur hitbox range changes

lean shoal
#

its still a 2 shot. only way stego will be viable is if pounce is balanced and stegos hitbox gets fixed.

alpine plover
#

No, Stego is still pretty viable

hollow canyon
#

Stego should be the one to receive the changes. The multiplier on the tail has to go down by a lot, that's the start.

grave veldt
#

stego not able to one shot carno in the head is strange to me honestly

lean shoal
#

oh cool the 70 kmph animal is now moving at 65 kmph and has a smaller hitbox.

alpine plover
grave veldt
#

61.4 *

grave veldt
hollow canyon
#

61.7, I don't think the speed of the animals is going to change tbh.

alpine plover
#

It should.

#

But getting a headshot rn is still Game Over

lean shoal
grave veldt
#

the speed has to change though to match the animation

alpine plover
grave veldt
#

unless they speed up the animation

#

or change it

lean shoal
hollow canyon
#

The speed isn't meant to be changed - meaning that the animation gets sped up so that the animals that are getting the downsize will remain at the same speed.

#

Unless they decide to make some changes but that's not the impression I was getting from what Hypno said about everything.

lean shoal
#

being downsized is generally good for slower animals. makes them harder to hit because with a shrunken model they get a smaller hitbox.

grave veldt
#

anyways passive dmg to stegos tail should be a thing doesnt make sense to bite the spikes

alpine plover
lean shoal
#

being downsized for fast animals tends to be worse but if they speed up the animation it is better because the hitbox gets smaller for no downsides except reach.

alpine plover
#

If Stegos stopped blaming their losses on the tail bug, maybe they would be better 🤷‍♀️ Its not easy to do, its not a 100% fullproof strat, if it happens to your Stego you have to improve, thats it

grave veldt
alpine plover
#

It should be fixed yes but stop constantly complaining about it or saying Stego is unviable, its not

alpine plover
grave veldt
#

its not unviable but its not worth 5 hours

lean shoal
grave veldt
lean shoal
#

if you know how to do it its easy to exploit the hitbox.

grave veldt
#

^

lean shoal
#

the stego has no counterplay except to sit there and wait for the carno to fuck up and get too close.

#

because if you swing you take damage.

alpine plover
#

Okay Im going to give you guys the benefit of the doubt

#

Do you guys play Carno and have you guys easily killed a Stego only using tail bites 1v1?

grave veldt
#

i did that yesterday on ZOO

lean shoal
#

i havent but ive been killed by it quite a few times

#

mostly because i havent bothered to mess with a stego.

alpine plover
grave veldt
lean shoal
#

i did it in a 1v1 vs a carno on a different server and died 2/3 times. the first time they fucked up.

alpine plover
lean shoal
#

they got hit and panicked the first time which let me kill them. the next two times i got them once over all.

grave veldt
lean shoal
#

the fight areas are pretty designated on testing servers with no water and usually open fields.

#

mostly because aside from dryo hypsi and stego the open is better for fighting.

alpine plover
lean shoal
#

its an exploit caused by a poorly designed attack and a bad hitbox for stego and carno being stupidly agile.

grave veldt
#

i mean abusing the hitbox was pretty easy

#

at a 45 degree angle the hitbox after the tail attack is exploitable

lean shoal
#

my first fight as carno i clapped 2 utahs. carno is pretty easy to use.

alpine plover
#

It is

grave veldt
#

ye carno is pretty easy to use

lean shoal
#

then they pounced me and i got them both again.

alpine plover
#

Im not defending Carno in anyway lmao its busted but Stego matchup isnt impossible for Stego

grave veldt
#

its not impossible

#

but carnos who know what their doing can exploit easily and if the stego isnt good then its a gg

lean shoal
#

its not impossible just has major issues that shouldent exist.

grave veldt
#

^

alpine plover
#

That I agree but what Im arguing here is that Stego is in no way more unviable than a Teno is

lean shoal
#

stego takes 5 hours and carno takes 2.5 stego should be able to deal with 2 carnos and should have a chance against 3.

#

tenonto can actually fight utah and can kill carno if you know how.

grave veldt
#

i still think they should tweak stego and make it 6 hours

#

then it has a more even playing field

lean shoal
#

not until stego can 1 shot allo.

grave veldt
#

i mean id say for a body shot allo should survive

lean shoal
#

stego should be killing non apexes in 1-2 hits.

grave veldt
#

yea agreed

alpine plover
lean shoal
#

when mid tiers come in i think it should get a damage buff and when apexes come in an hp and weight buff.

grave veldt
#

carno cant tank tail slams tho cuz of stun

lean shoal
#

if the tenonto lands a kick the carno can be slammed 3 times for free.

grave veldt
#

ye

#

if those slams r on the head

#

the carno will die

lean shoal
#

tenonto needs skill to beat carno.

alpine plover
grave veldt
lean shoal
#

carnos bite does 200 damage tenonto has 2k hp rn. that is a multiplier of 5x on a headshot.

grave veldt
#

if its letting carno run up and get head bites then something aint right

lean shoal
#

aka carno should be dead from 3 head slams.

#

at most.

alpine plover
grave veldt
lean shoal
#

tenonto needs a stamina change for sure.

grave veldt
#

stego regens faster then teno

#

lol

lean shoal
#

tail slam should be a bit cheaper and the stam regen needs to be much better.

alpine plover
#

If teno had better stam management then it has a way better chance against Carno. But rn, nah Teno is pretty bad

grave veldt
#

teno isnt that bad tho

#

a good teno can win a lot

alpine plover
#

Its pretty bad

lean shoal
#

tenonto is also free food for carno until its 75%+ grown.

grave veldt
#

if it knows what its doing w/o getting baited

#

idk what tenos ur fighting but

#

good tenos have a much much better match up

alpine plover
#

Do you know a good Teno

#

Maybe im wrong

lean shoal
#

the carno that 100-0ed my stego faught a good tenonto and they went even 2-2

alpine plover
#

Maybe Ive been fighting bad Tenos all the time

grave veldt
#

idk "know" a good teno but ive fought good tenos

alpine plover
#

But based on my experience, Teno is super easy for Carno

lean shoal
#

im not sure who it was

grave veldt
#

ur def fighting horrible tenos

lean shoal
#

or not outstanding ones.

grave veldt
#

at most match up is 60/40 in carnos favour at most

alpine plover
#

Maybe I am.

#

But unless I find a good Teno my opinion wont change

grave veldt
#

so lets nerf carno lol

alpine plover
#

Yea

lean shoal
#

im just waiting for update 4 to get into evrima because i dont see myself really enjoying anything before pachy either due to playstyle or growth time.

grave veldt
#

honestly its ramming dmg needs to be higher and its bite lowered

lean shoal
#

lower bite better ram slower deceleration.

grave veldt
#

yes

#

that makes it more like carno

lean shoal
#

it should slide a full body length if it tries to drift from full speed.

#

instead of stopping instantly like it does now.

#

would mean they have to stay farther away from things like stego and tenonto.

grave veldt
#

it stops way too fast for a 2 ton dino

alpine plover
#

I think they should nerf stam regen, nerf health regen, decrease the hitbox range of Carno and fix the sharp turns with charge and just the sharp u-turns in general. Make Carno fall over after tunring with full speed, it would punish Carnos that run at Stego and then turn when it swings

grave veldt
#

it stops just as fast as a teno but carno is much faster

alpine plover
#

So they have to play more intellegently

grave veldt
#

yea that'd be cool actually

#

or actually

#

make it so if u drift like carno does now it takes stam

#

and when ur out u fall over if u try n drift

alpine plover
#

If yall havent noticed Carno regens health and stam super quick

#

Which is why you see Carnos attacking Utahs packs and Stegos withotu much consequence if they get to low health or not

lean shoal
#

yeah carnos regen is pretty stupid as tenonto and stego have terible stat regen.

#

it takes tenonto like 10 mins to heal from 20% to 90% and carno can heal back to full in 5-7 i think.

grave veldt
#

carnos regen is pretty fast

alpine plover
#

Yea

grave veldt
#

stego having bad stat regen is fine cuz it has lots of health

#

if only it was balanced better

lean shoal
#

really hope pachy is good. it needs something after being useless until 2019 which got it a nerf after it was put in survival because utahs complained about getting 2 shot.

alpine plover
#

I once went to Beach pool to fight a Stego as Carno. I kept messing up but the fact that my regen was so good, I could just run away, heal, and come back while the Stego was still about the same amount of health as I left it. Really unfair because Stego was playing far better than me but I could kill it anyway because I had unlimited tries

lean shoal
#

because something that has 350 more health than you and does 150 more damage with no bleed and is much slower than you is op.

#

yet now if a dilo dosent ambush a pachy its free game.

#

pachy is pretty intersting to use in legacy. just seeing carnos or utah packs is scary.

#

its budget maia that takes longer to grow.

alpine plover
#

Still cant believe how Pachy legit take slonger to grow than Maia LMAO

lean shoal
#

yeah pachy is pain.

grave veldt
#

maia is literally a better pachy no cap

lean shoal
#

its good in some way but the worst on others

#

its agile has insane stamina regen hits like a truck and can traverse the map with no effort. but it cant swim has to eat every 40 mins has no bleed resistance at all and gets hard countered by carno and multiple utahs.

alpine plover
#

Pachy when Dilo at night

lean shoal
#

even still bad utahs are fun to fight as pachy and the only things you dont want to fight as it are carno cerato and sometimes maias if they want to kill you.

#

pachy can kill dilo if it can keep track of it. once it runs out of ambush its dead.

alpine plover
#

Yea

#

But its gonna burn alot of HP while running with bleed

lean shoal
#

pachy can run rings around carno especially in trees.

#

it dosent matter if you burn all you hp as long as that rat of the night is dead and your sitting on its corpse.

alpine plover
#

Then you die by somebody who sniffs out your bleed and the Dilo grows back quicker TI_Troll

lean shoal
#

pachy wins against utah if you know how. they cant tank you and you need to take 3 bites to bleed out from a utah if you play defensive after taking a hit and land all your hits you win.

alpine plover
#

Part of me is hoping Pachy is busted upon release like Carno is and have some fun with it while it lasts

grave veldt
#

legacy is a clusterfuck honestly lol

lean shoal
#

pachy is more fun tham maia because theres more to do except exterminate dilos and nest.

#

there was mention of pachy possibly having pounce resistance

#

aka even more anti utah.

alpine plover
#

Man

#

Utah has it really rough right now

#

Its not going to be good until like the small ecosystem comes out

grave veldt
#

utah has it pretty fine rn its pounce is very strong too strong honestly

alpine plover
#

Not at all

grave veldt
#

yes

#

this is a fact lol

lean shoal
#

pachy is like galli and maia combined but with more crackhead energy and less brain inputs.

#

utahs pounce is broken as hell.

grave veldt
#

4 pounces for a stego to die

#

if all 4 utahs pounce the stego its a gg

lean shoal
#

yeah 4 500 kilogram animals taking down a 4500 kg one

alpine plover
#

Utah dies to Carno very easily, and if Teno or Stego is in the trees what can the Utah do except go back to a rock or something lol

lean shoal
#

theres no counterplay for the stego either.

alpine plover
#

There is

grave veldt
#

utah dies to carno easily

alpine plover
#

Just go in th etrees

grave veldt
#

becuz its supposed to

#

thats what carno is supposed to hunt

lean shoal
#

carno is meant to be a terror for smaller animals.

grave veldt
#

its a small game hunter thats extremely fast

alpine plover
#

I dont care if its ''supposed to''. In the future when Carnos have actual threats (No Deino will not be a threat to Carno), sure, make it body Utahs. But until Update 5 there is no point in going Utah over Carno. Not at all.

lean shoal
#

carnos only bad matchups below its tier will likely be kentro possibly diablo tenonto and magy and a skilled pachy.

#

cerato wont do shit to carno most of the time. not unless the carno chases it into the jungle.

alpine plover
#

Ah cool

#

Then Utahs will be useless for a long time then

grave veldt
#

cerato has a much better chance to survive a carno then a pachy lol

#

utahs are not useless in packs who know what their doing they're too strong becuz of pounce

#

a lot and i mean a lot of ppl have requested pounce to be reworked

#

and i absolutley agree

alpine plover
#

Yall are basing Utah being strong over them killing a Stego rightfully so because it was standing in an open field

lean shoal
#

pachys entire thing is it will smash legs. its planned to be able to ram carnos leg and bolt.

grave veldt
#

its not just stego

#

pounce in general is just too

#

low risk and high reward

lean shoal
#

utah packs are stupid to deal with.

alpine plover
#

How

grave veldt
#

wdym how lol

alpine plover
#

Like how

lean shoal
#

if you have a pack and land multiple pounces what your attacking is dead.

alpine plover
#

If Im a Carno and you pounce on me Im like thanks for giving me a free hit buddy lol

lean shoal
#

pounce does way too much dps atm.

grave veldt
#

u can literally pounce anywhere u want on the body or even the head and u will land on the side and do a lot of dps

alpine plover
#

You SHOULD do alot of dps. Because you are only gonna remained pounced for a short amount of times as your target runs bucking into trees or water

grave veldt
#

you think its ok for pounce to 2 shot a carno

lean shoal
#

pounce should do insane bleed but moderate damage.

grave veldt
#

get 2 utahs on u and its over

#

ofc theres bucking

#

but u cant attack while bucking

lean shoal
#

bucking dosent work though.

alpine plover
#

If you get 2 shot as a Carno with pounce you deserve it, you didnt buck, you didnt run into trees, you didnt run into water

grave veldt
#

so in a pack its over

#

bucking is only good at certain times tho and trees wont always be there

lean shoal
#

not always trees or water within the proximity you need to survive.

alpine plover
#

If you get pounced out in the open against Utahs...what are you doing

grave veldt
#

water will be gone soon for everything cuz deino, trees are a carno down fall

lean shoal
#

bucking is too slow to get multiple utahs off you before they shred you to death.

alpine plover
#

The only way you are gonna get pounced by a Utah as a CArno is if you were attacking them first

grave veldt
#

which is what usually happens

alpine plover
#

Yea

grave veldt
#

utah isnt op but its pounce should be looked at

alpine plover
#

And if you are attacking a Utah pack not near water or trees its your fault

#

No, Pounce is fine

#

Its absolutely ''no risk''

#

If you pounce alone you die when you get off.

#

If you pounce with a coordinated pack...then you deserve the kill

grave veldt
#

obviously but in packs its crazy good

#

too good

alpine plover
#

As it should

#

Thats the point\

#

Utahs should be good in packs

grave veldt
#

no ones arguing that were talking about pounce it self

alpine plover
#

I dont understand then

#

I dont think Pounce is broken

grave veldt
#

its very easy to get pounce which is ok if its dps wasnt so high

lean shoal
#

pounce does too much damage when theres multiple utahs. that is the issue. there is no counter to it except trees and water one of those wont exist and the other is unreliable.

grave veldt
#

^

alpine plover
#

Okay but

#

Why is that bad

grave veldt
#

?

lean shoal
#

high bleed moderate damage.

alpine plover
#

Why should you not die if a bunch of Utahs pounce on you

#

Im not understanding

grave veldt
#

balance?

lean shoal
#

utahs should bleed you out if they pounce you not completly destroy you unless your tiny.

grave veldt
#

i dont get what ur saying

alpine plover
#

Okay, the balance is that you have to be well coordinated and your target has to be out in the open and ambushed. There is your balance.

lean shoal
#

why should an animal that takes about an hour to grow be able to kill an animal that takes 2.5 or 5 hours to grow in a group

grave veldt
#

yea cool and then u can kill that dino in seconds

#

balance right

alpine plover
#

No?

grave veldt
#

exactly

alpine plover
#

I mean

grave veldt
#

search up videos of utahs pouncing they destroy targets in seconds

lean shoal
#

its pretty braindead and super irritating. makes it pointless to play anything that cant deal with pounce or carno.

alpine plover
#

No, you arent going to kill something that isnt in the open and ambushed

lean shoal
grave veldt
#

pounce needs a rework

lean shoal
#

4 utahs on a stego kill it in about 5 seconds.

grave veldt
#

i think everyone agrees on that

lean shoal
#

unless your already in the water your dead.

alpine plover
#

I think if Im out in the open and four things pounce on me, I rightfully deserve to die

grave veldt
#

Why are u defending pounce like i dont get it, it needs to be reworked to be more skillful

alpine plover
#

Then I fought against them near a tree, and then I won pretty easily

#

Its not broken, you just arent playing against it correctly

lean shoal
#

its easy and pretty stupid as you cant fight back unless your under very rare circumstances. even if you knock them off as a stego they can just jump back on wen you get out of the water or bite you to death in the water.

grave veldt
#

read this zote

hollow canyon
#

I'm just going to say that this strategy with biting Stego's tail really isn't that hard to pull off. I just did it myself on the first try(albeit it was a fresh spawn vs fresh spawn fight but I think that's more in Stego's favour than the full adult fight since it does oneshot a Carno if both are fresh spawns).

alpine plover
hollow canyon
#

The Stego went close to the water but it didn't really help it out all that much either

grave veldt
#

you shouldnt need to rely on the enviorment to save u everytime

#

it should help u and u should rely on it as an advantage

lean shoal
#

^

grave veldt
#

but if u need it

#

then something isnt right

lean shoal
#

some animals should be more focoused on different environments but stego meant to be a open plains grazer should be able to fight off everything.

#

semi aquatics should somewhat rely on water for different reasons.

#

and some animals should stay in the jungles or forests for more cover or safety. that still dosent mean they should have to effectively turtle their whole lifes.

grave veldt
#

were not saying you cant use the enviorment but you shoudnt need it to fight something everytime

lean shoal
#

just because an animal that exists 100-0s you, you shouldent have to be in constant fear of it.

alpine plover
#

Thats uh

#

Survival

#

In a supposed to be horror game

#

Yes, you should always be afraid of things

lean shoal
#

you shouldent be forced to be a hermit most of the time especially as larger animals.

alpine plover
#

Okay but 4 Utahs is technically a large animal

#

Like, I would say 4 Utahs should be a similar threat to a single Allo.

grave veldt
#

but allo is smaller then a stego

#

stego should be needing 6 pounces

#

or if its 4

#

make it more difficult to pull off the pounce

#

again refer to this post

#

wait it didnt work

#

there we go

alpine plover
#

Why would it be more difficult? A Stego thats getting attacked by both sides is gonna have ahard time sfending them off.

lean shoal
#

stego should be able to kill most of a utah pack. a good stego should kill 5-6 utahs even if it gets pounced.

alpine plover
#

Um...no

grave veldt
#

uh

#

yes

lean shoal
alpine plover
#

Um...no?

grave veldt
#

even if stego dies it should take out a lot of them with it

#

um.. yes?

#

5 hours for stego

alpine plover
#

Why should a coordinated pack attack have alot of casualty

lean shoal
#

stego is 10x utahs weigth and can kill a utah in one swing. it should kill most of the pack.

alpine plover
#

No, it shouldnt

lean shoal
grave veldt
alpine plover
#

Okay but not only is that not game balance its not realistic at all

grave veldt
#

like look at today u dont see only 4 hyena attacking a buffalo

#

u need atleast 10

lean shoal
#

should 6 utahs take out a rex without most of them dying? how about a trike shant or anky?

grave veldt
#

maybe 15

alpine plover
#

Okay but

#

If 15 Hyenas attack a buffalo

#

Will 10 die>

#

?

grave veldt
#

most likely

#

they will run away

lean shoal
#

most likely a few will be badly injured or killed.

obtuse shuttle
#

An animal that grows longer and cant choose when to fight or not shouldnt also have to be harder to fight with

grave veldt
#

^^^^^^^^

lean shoal
#

same reason lions rarely hunt hippos rhinos giraffes or elephants. they are too large and too risky to attack.

#

every time you hunt an animal close to if not larger than you there should be a decent risk.

#

even smaller prey sometimes have risks.

alpine plover
#

Dude yall are like equating the lives of an animal as pure dps. A Stego will not fucking kill off 6 Uthas in a pack of 10. It will be so overwhelmed by those 10 that when it tries to swing at some and it misses, boom, a bunch of them pounce on it. And as its struggling, boom, the others pounce on it. Maybe a lucky panic swing will kill a reckless Utah but why teh hell should 6 Utahs just randomly die?

grave veldt
#

it will

#

lol

alpine plover
#

Why>

grave veldt
#

it should too

obtuse shuttle
#

It will

grave veldt
#

wdym why

alpine plover
#

Why?

#

But why

lean shoal
#

a lone utah should be able to take rugops herrera dryo mono with pretty low risk but pachy ava and dilo should be able to destroy you if they play it right.

The_Isle_Pseudo-Mid_Tier_Assets_Size.png
grave veldt
#

why not?

alpine plover
#

Because its fucking stupid

grave veldt
#

yk what is stupid? pounce

obtuse shuttle
#

You know this is not a deathmatch game right?

grave veldt
#

^

calm ibex
#

i'd rather not turn this game into league of legends or any other DM kind of thing

obtuse shuttle
#

If you cant kill something you dont have to

lean shoal
#

ts stupid to loose an animal that takes a longer time to grow to a pack of animals that take almost no time to grow.

alpine plover
lean shoal
#

if you cant run and cant fight your unviable. stego is not unviable on paper.

obtuse shuttle
#

You are the unaware here dude

alpine plover
#

Literally how

obtuse shuttle
#

This is a survival game

#

Surviving is not about having the biggest kill count

lean shoal
#

you have 3 people explaining how your wrong and you cant face the facts.

grave veldt
#

i dont get why ur defending pounce lol

alpine plover
obtuse shuttle
#

You cant reason with people Who think they hace the absolute truth

#

Dude

lean shoal
#

pounce is broken and needs to be changed and balanced end of story

obtuse shuttle
#

You are the only one saying this is a deathmatch

alpine plover
#

WHEN

calm ibex
#

currently the game is just a DM, but the more it moves away from it the better it'll be as a game

alpine plover
#

WHEN

obtuse shuttle
#

The unaware one here is you

alpine plover
#

HOW

#

YOU ARENT THINKING LOGICALLY WHAT

obtuse shuttle
#

Im not the one screaming because im wrong

grave veldt
#

my guy pounce needs to be reworked end of this anime plot

lean shoal
obtuse shuttle
#

Gharial, i think zote cant see you, because im somehow the only one defending my point

#

Anyway, gotta go

lean shoal
#

theres always the people that dont know anything about how animals act. predators spend more time worrying about being injured than they do killing prey.

obtuse shuttle
#

Do t have time for "fornite with dinos" people

alpine plover
#

Jesus Christ, you say this isnt deathmatch but then you say ''Nah 6 Utahs should definetly die after attacking a Stego as a pack of 10, its only fair lol'' THAT IS LITERALLY DEATHMATCH. In survival NONE of the members die because they are coordinated and work together to gurantee the least cuasualty possible

grave veldt
#

what even is that statement

obtuse shuttle
lean shoal
#

guess what? you cant be coordinated in game when in a hunt right now. only way to do that is to get in a voice call.

grave veldt
#

like wha

#

lol

#

just becuz ur coordinated doesnt mean ur god

#

most of the pack should die

#

honestly

alpine plover
#

Why

lean shoal
#

predators avoid hunts if they are spotted most of the time irl because they have a very high risk of injury if they dont ambush their target.

alpine plover
#

I dont understand how you are thinking

grave veldt
#

its not thinking its fax it happens today as well

lean shoal
#

because an animal that can one shot aonther and is much larger is a difficult target to take down especially when you cant aproach it safely from the rear.

alpine plover
#

A Stego wont go ulta instinct on a pack of Utahs and go ham on like 6 Adulst before dropping dead, the reason predators hunt in packs is to overwhelm prey and reduce risk of death

grave veldt
#

i mean it kinda will

alpine plover
#

Dude

grave veldt
#

the stego is gonna fight for its life

obtuse shuttle
#

A single stego swing could kill 2 utahs

ebon kraken
#

The stego is not just going to stand there...

grave veldt
#

^

lean shoal
#

how many times do lions succeed in hunting rhinos? almost 0

alpine plover
lean shoal
#

every hunt is risk vs reward.

grave veldt
#

and rn sadly utahs have a high reward and low risk

#

thats why ppl wanna see pounce reworked

lean shoal
#

the larger your quarry compared to you the higher the chance of injury or death.

ebon kraken
#

Pounce has no skill you just spam it. There’s no risk

grave veldt
#

ye basically

#

very low risk

lean shoal
#

yep you press the button and if theres enough of you you get a kill

#

utahs pounce is in essence a stat check.

obtuse shuttle
#

Im sad, i often think im the only Utah main that doesnt want Utah to kill everything

#

Is not only unskilled, it also kills way too fast

grave veldt
#

like if theres a bunch of utahs and u die thats one thing but something like stego should be able to take out a lot of them

lean shoal
#

if you have enough damage to kill something you will kill it in 99% of situations.

#

anything larger than utah itself should be able to take out multiple utahs if it plays right.

obtuse shuttle
#

In the words of dondi a Utah pack of like 10 could kill a Rex but only after several loses, like there Will only remain 2 utahs

lean shoal
#

tenonto should be at a minimum 2 utahs to take one and both should get hurt pretty bad.

grave veldt
#

yea didnt dondi say like if 15 utahs attack a rex 10 of em should die

#

he said in a stream

lean shoal
#

yeah thats the plan with apexes and utah. if you have a large enough pack you can kill something but you will loose most of said pack.

grave veldt
#

yea

obtuse shuttle
#

And also "just because Utah and red exist doesnt mean Utah deserves a fair nor even remote chance of killing Rex"

#

Some animals are simply not made to interact

ebon kraken
#

So why does it need only 4 Utahs for a stego?

lean shoal
#

cough anky not giving a fuck about utahs pounce.

ebon kraken
#

Kentro too

lean shoal
#

because pounce is overtuned.

grave veldt
obtuse shuttle
#

But i have seen people saying a single Utah could kill a cámara by focusing the neck forgeting that cámara's neck skin is thicker than utahs claw is long

lean shoal
#

utahs claws would barely pierce ankys hide and the second they get off they get sent flying by its tail.

obtuse shuttle
lean shoal
#

utah would not be able to pounce a cammas neck. as the camma could whip its neck around and sedn the utah flying.

ebon kraken
#

People think Utah is a hypo or something TI_LUL

grave veldt
#

"hey guys idk why the rex is salty like it was a fair 1v1 i was a utah and it was rex so"

lean shoal
#

if it grabbed on with its teeth it would be straight up sent into the shadow realm. weather flung into the sky or crushed against the ground.

obtuse shuttle
#

They think this is a deathmatch game or a fightibg Game, in Smash Bros everyone should be able to beat everyone because literally the only point of the Game is wining fights but thankfully isle's only objetive is not wining but living longer

grave veldt
#

the goal is to survive not constantly fight

ebon kraken
#

If you spend 5 hours growing something you should not die in5 seconds to a small tier

grave veldt
#

rn fighting is the only thing u can do cuz evirma is still early

lean shoal
#

every animal should be able to set back a group from a pack by at least its own growth time if played right in most cases.

#

the more your packs total weight the larger prey you can take down.

#

dosent mean you will survive the encounter though.

alpine plover
#

Yall are thinking about animals statistically but not logically. What you are suggesting is not only not realistic but wont have balance on the game. If a pack of coordinated Utahs cant kill a Stego without casualty, why go Utah? Why not go big scary Apex that can kill everything without dying? Its just legacy again

lean shoal
#

attacking an animal thats larger than you is always a risk.

grave veldt
lean shoal
#

also utah wouldent be running fast. its max speed was something like 32 kmph

#

where as giga and sucho could run at 35 and bary could run at 39-42

#

realism is horrid for balance.

grave veldt
#

^

obtuse shuttle
#

Why go Utah?

lean shoal
#

oh wow look me and aken agreeing on something thats rare.

obtuse shuttle
#

Is almost like stego is not the only orey posible

grave veldt
#

lol

obtuse shuttle
#

You go Utah because you like speef

grave veldt
#

i love when my orey is speef

obtuse shuttle
#

But you sacrifice power with that decision

hollow canyon
#

If you want to hunt that Stego then you should be going that big scary apex - big scary apex hunting a Stego isn't a problem because it also takes a tonne of time and effort to grow one. Rather than getting 4 people to grow animals that take little to no effort to get to full growth.

alpine plover
# lean shoal realism is horrid for balance.

Well, I really dont have much to say because there is no way you guys are THIS close to missing the entire point but still stubbornly having the erroneous idea about game balance

lean shoal
#

lone utahs shouldent be attacking anything larger than itself packs of utahs can hunt larger prey but theres more risk in going after larger prey.

grave veldt
alpine plover
grave veldt
#

its not if u dont fight it

lean shoal
#

even still apexes should all be evenly matched. a rex should need to ambush a stego or trike to take it down.

alpine plover
grave veldt
lean shoal
#

because the stego can literally tip over and crush them

grave veldt
#

and is much lighter in weight?

obtuse shuttle
#

Are you forced to ambish the stego? Or is just because you want?

alpine plover
grave veldt
#

remember that the stego cant run it doesnt choose fights

lean shoal
#

and also guess what it takes longer to grow so it should be abel to easily fight off a pack.

grave veldt
alpine plover
lean shoal
#

but each member can grow much quicker than the stego can.

grave veldt
#

this isnt dm lol

calm ibex
#

dont worry, i'm sure utahs will solo apexes just fine in the future

#

just like this ass biting of carno showed, there is very little effort actually put into researching match ups in balance

obtuse shuttle
alpine plover
# grave veldt this isnt dm lol

If it was dm I would do it without fear, I accept the risk I take when attacking a Stego and would be fine with dying...IF I MESS UP. I dont wanna die because Stego will kill you just because even factoring skill

lean shoal
#

if you cant run you should be able to fight every time.

#

attacking larger animals is very risky for any animal. especially if said animal can cover half its body with an instant death weaopn.

desert wave
alpine plover
grave veldt
lean shoal
#

if you play right you should be able to take out a full pack of utahs as a stego.

grave veldt
#

^

desert wave
lean shoal
#

it would be funny if stegos buck was just it tipping over onto its side and crushing utahs.

grave veldt
#

lol

alpine plover
grave veldt
lean shoal
#

if they are better than you you should take down a few unless your terible.

grave veldt
#

if ur terrible then u should die and then learn what u should have done

alpine plover
lean shoal
#

if you know how to use stego at all you should be able to take down a chunk of a pack of utahs.

#

utah is not skill based right now though as pounce is instant death.

grave veldt
alpine plover
#

Utah needs alot of skill to be viable right now, dont undermine how bad they are rn

ebon kraken
#

Yes a dumb stego should die... we are talking equal skilled players

grave veldt
#

on equal footing the stego shouuld be able to kill 3-4 utahs

alpine plover
#

players should be rewarded for skill, what the hell is the point of even practicing and getting better with dinos then? you shouldn't NEED a lot of skill to kill things but good players should still be rewarded

alpine plover
lean shoal
#

if you get the best stego player and the best utah players the stego should have a higher chance of winning.

alpine plover
#

Yea, good, okay

#

But the average player shouldnt

obtuse shuttle
lean shoal
#

average stego should beat average utahs.

grave veldt
#

average stego still should be able to take out the one good utah

alpine plover
ebon kraken
#

Dumb stego should be a pack of dumb Utahs

alpine plover
grave veldt
#

yup

lean shoal
#

good uatsh should win the fight but if the stego is smart at all it should get a few of them.

grave veldt
#

its not dm

#

its survival

alpine plover
#

Thats still bad game design.

#

it's like the rex and utah situation in legacy, utah grows for like an hour and rex grows for around 5 or 6 and then utah can just kill the rex with ease because of it's poor turn radius

lean shoal
grave veldt
#

lol

ebon kraken
#

No because stego is way bigger and takes way longer to grow it’s not bad game design

lean shoal
#

its how it should be.

grave veldt
alpine plover
#

Stego is an APEX you need to remember that

#

As /// said, skille dplayers should be rewarded. If both are skilled players than yea, the stronger dino should have a better chance.

obtuse shuttle
lean shoal
#

a sucho should clap a utah pack if it plays defensive ngl.

grave veldt
#

sucho is quite massive irl

lean shoal
#

stand in knee deep water and if they try you smack them.

alpine plover
obtuse shuttle
#

You must legit have zero empathy and never play apex to even think this is fair

#

Dont use bad examples then

lean shoal
#

if you keep your main weapons facing your attackers and can keep your weak points away from them you should be able to win.

grave veldt
#

anyways the main point we tryna make is pounce should be reworked

alpine plover
grave veldt
#

end of story

alpine plover
#

No

grave veldt
#

yes

alpine plover
#

Its fine the way it is

#

"Sorry but are you saying that the 60 kmph Utah that grows in 1 hour should be on equal ground with the 25 kmph stego that grows in 5 hours?"

And I used the rex and utah example in legacy, a utah can easily kill an apex with ease making it basically equal with apexes lol

grave veldt
obtuse shuttle
#

If stego was as fast as Utah and grew in a hour then we Talk about equ fights

lean shoal
#

dur hur 4 utahs thanos snap stego

obtuse shuttle
#

But stego isnt

grave veldt
ebon kraken
#

Except carno can kill a stego by biting is primary weapon TI_pue1

alpine plover
#

Okay why are you linking me to the suggestion I dont agree with it

obtuse shuttle
#

Sorry but a Utah cant kill apex, because no alt turn doesnt count

grave veldt
#

well u should

alpine plover
#

Why?

grave veldt
#

becuz ur view is gonna ruin game balance

obtuse shuttle
#

You, again are using a unintented lack of mechanich

lean shoal
#

part of how an animal fairs is based on its build and weapons then you add in player skill. kentro should be infinitely harder than tenonto for utah to kill because most of its body is death.

hollow canyon
#

Utahs absolutely can kill an apex on legacy even with alt turn, it just takes more time

grave veldt
#

aken spit some facts pls

obtuse shuttle
#

Doesnt mean It should

#

Specially because the fucking Boss of this Game is against the idea

alpine plover
calm ibex
#

its difficult to predict what an animal like utah can do in right hands since it has the speed and agility

alpine plover
#

And I think Pounce is pretty balanced right now based on my experience with it.

grave veldt
#

so thats the thing ur experience

#

ur going off on what u have seen or did/fought

obtuse shuttle
#

Your experience in only utah's side

hollow canyon
#

I'm a bit busy playing DoTA2 right now, I'm just observing the conversation whenever I have a free moment

obtuse shuttle
#

Also, personal experience is not a law

grave veldt
#

u need to go through all ways off the utah pounce

lean shoal
#

a pack of utahs in legacy is pretty easy to use. you bait the prey item and then let you packmates go in when its distracted. its not garonteed in legacy against some animals like anky and stego as they have really good defensive tools.

alpine plover
#

I know how pounce works. I know how to use it and deal with it.

#

I think its balanced.

grave veldt
#

etc

#

thats how u test balance

alpine plover
#

I HAVE.

#

I have experienced alot of situations

grave veldt
#

if u have then u would've said to rework pounce

lean shoal
#

utahs pounce is overtuned unless your in a position to counter it. stego is not meant to be in those places. its an open plains animal but if you fight utahs in the open you die.

alpine plover
#

I wouldnt be making such a bold statement if I didnt have experience

grave veldt
#

its dps is too high for what it is

#

if it had better mechanics or was bleed based it would make it more skillful

alpine plover
#

I think the dps is completely fine since pouncing is already a short lived action anyway.

grave veldt
#

rn its its click button thing dies

#

no skill

calm ibex
#

pounce is broken af, imagine if rex had an ability to one shot same tier animals

obtuse shuttle
#

There is a main problem in this convo and is the root of It, the fact that we are talking with someone Who think this is a fighting Game, is a fundamental error and this is not going anywhere

lean shoal
#

pounce fix. high bleed moderate damage. utahs pounce does about 250 damage a second per animal if it did half that but did tripple the bleed it would be better balance wise as its still strong just les soppressive.