balance-feedback-discussion

[hidden kettle]

oh well i didnt knew it really got increased all i knew was that the stun immunity got attached to all species later to prevent stunlocking..
well at that point better know when to jump. its not like onmi got no movement at all now.. ima give it a shot later and see myself just to be sure to not trashtalk around here now 😄

also ill check the gastros and screenshot if differ from cera at this point to check that too D:

[solid anvil]

We’re just talking about desync right now which affects everything. The point is that pounce bugs combined with desync made omni literally unplayable at times in the last patch, and now they’ve just made it worse. Like I said before, I’m not even saying that the base stun duration should change, just the terrain at the very least. You’re really going to sit here and pretend like the terrain stun wasn’t long enough before? It used to be you get dismounted by a tree hitbox that doesn’t match the model, or you don’t hit the tree on your screen and still get stunned, the result was you take a hit and have to leave the fight almost every time, now it’s you get dismounted you die.

[steep gazelle]

Know when to jump and pray that no bugs happen

[elfin night]

#balance-feedback message why is there never any intelligent, well hidden bait such as mine?

[maiden temple]

Read the pin in that channel and you'll have your answer

[elfin night]

😭

It just says that these people just wanna get muted

[random stump]

literally not bait wdym

unironically pt should be able to fly for an incredibly long time or have extremely fast stamina regen

[elfin night]

The rework is incomplete first of all

And second, why?

[random stump]

fun

[hidden kettle]

just said it should be long enough to get hit once for the sake of penalty / punishment. was fine with the old one didnt said it needs to be longer than a single follow up hit for the fail

[random stump]

idk why dinosaur game players forget its a video game and its meant to be fun

and not "fly around for 15 seconds then sit for 10 minutes" simulator

[elfin night]

Things can be fun without being overtuned or unneeded

[tiny thicket]

I think ptera should regain stam when its cruising and stam is above 60% just like trotting.

[hidden kettle]

ye thats quite ashame tho

[random stump]

idk if it should be able to fly forever without stopping like that

but it could certainly be far less miserable to play

[hidden kettle]

ye just float around without swinging it should (even if very very slow) regain some stam imo

[primal kraken]

@true ginkgo ?

[elfin night]

Almost looks like retro iguanodon

[golden coral]

What a baby stego should look like perhaps

[maiden temple]

ew never post that again

I don't wanna see any shaved stegos 😦

[thorn mountain]

generic herbivore

[elfin night]

#balance-feedback message the weak ceratosaurus fails at hunting a strong herbivore

[amber wharf]

Exactly what i thought. Looks like those shaved cats. 😭😂

[vale brook]

i dont like this

[golden coral]

@limber delta That's not a thing in Evrima, there's no weight damage change for any playable.

[cosmic pelican]

(Aside from herreras jump)

[golden coral]

Hm? You do more or less damage depending on target size for herrera?

[cosmic pelican]

The closer it is in size to you the more damage you deal to it, the sweet spot makes it deal 500dmg on a body shot to a dilo, while it deals only like 200-300 to a trike

[golden coral]

When was this introduced, or was it always like that?

[cosmic pelican]

As far as I know, it has always been like this

[golden coral]

Guess it's another thing to try and find out then xD

Don't suppose you got any dev comment or something to work with?

[dusky surge]

@limber delta that’s every dino in EVRIMA. Combat weight resistance is not a thing in EVRIMA and hasn’t been since release

[faint robin]

Trike's main attacks shouldn't cost stamina. It already has low stam pool and with how bad stamina regens and how easily its wasted its just an overkill.
#balance-feedback message

Why should deino even fight trike on land? It kills trike in the water fine

[golden coral]

It has more than one main attack?

[faint robin]

Flip and headbutt prob

[golden coral]

Thrash and the others do cost stamina, right?

[dusky surge]

Nope

[faint robin]

Alt does cost stam

[dusky surge]

Thrash is free

[faint robin]

Spar attack costs squares before draining stam

[golden coral]

Then I hope stego gets do to it's swings and jabs for free too then

Cause there's little sense in letting trike have attacks doing 1K or more for free, while stego doing similar or less at an extreme cost

[faint robin]

Thrash is free but locks you and prob has too much dmg for now. We'll see how it goes against rex

[faint robin]

Stego hits way faster and is faster overall

[golden coral]

Also much weaker, yeah no, if trike gets all that for free, so should stego

[dusky surge]

^

[slim dragon]

stego main

[golden coral]

No way it can be acceptable for trike to have a 2K/3K (with knockdown) attack for free, but stego cost 5/10% stam for an attack that locks movement

[faint robin]

Thats because its much faster.

[golden coral]

Yes, but is this actually reasonable then?

[golden coral]

It's barely faster than trike, and what does their speed even have to do with it?

[faint robin]

Im not against thrash costing stam/getting dmg lowered
But only thrash tho

[faint robin]

Its not barely faster than trike with almost twice the stam.

[golden coral]

No, all attacks bar your basic LMB should cost stam, maybe not much, but still

[golden coral]

Stego is not a fast playable, and why does that even matter

[faint robin]

Erm, no

[slim dragon]

Basic LMB should cost stam too
On all dinos

[golden coral]

Yes, it should. Or stego should have free jab, and a much lower cost on swing

No reason stego should be extremely reliant on stam, to the degree you more or less need a mutation to help you out, while another playable gets even more damage for free

[faint robin]

Stego is a whole different playable my guy

And has twice the stam of trike.

Also attacks much faster with better range

[golden coral]

So? That doesn't excuse it at all

[golden coral]

Still, completely stam free vs such costs that you need a mutation. No, that makes no sense what so ever

If trike gets to have almost no stam cost, stego should absolutely get its costs lowered or removed too

[faint robin]

I don't see how stego suffers at all. Its still an unbreakable wall for everything else except trike and maybe pack of dibbles.

[faint robin]

Stego is way faster, more stam, faster attacks, better range. You can't have it all.
Trike is slow, low stam, slow attacks. Cera still rides it. Does cera ride steg?

[golden coral]

It's not at all, and even if were, trike is even more so. So again, why should trike get that when stego doesnt

[faint robin]

Buff that because that does better or nerf that because that is worse is not how balance works lol

[golden coral]

Right, stego is almost as slow, has somewhat better range but locked movement instead, and the jab is hardly a fast attack outside of one angle. And apparently ceras do actually hunt stegos, so yes.

[faint robin]

Because trike weighs more? You just can't get away with trike cooking stego

[golden coral]

Depends on how you do it

[faint robin]

Trike has also locked movement on almost all attacks

[golden coral]

Shouldnt more weight mean more stam usage if anything

[golden coral]

You have a 900 basic attack you can use on the move?

[faint robin]

TI is not about realism, triceratops never galloped so as stego

[golden coral]

And if you want to compare swing with thrash, then well, one does 4K damage, 6K if target is knocked down, at free cost apparently

[faint robin]

Stego has a powerswing it charges during movement

[golden coral]

Stego didn't run either, but what does that have to do with it

[golden coral]

Big, telegraphed, stops you in your tracks

[faint robin]

Im not against thrash tuning, just the thrash tho

[golden coral]

No, all of it. Or just tune stego, put jab down to 2.5% stam or so, put swing at 5%

[faint robin]

Poor stego its so weak right? 😉

[golden coral]

Yes, its surprisingly weak for what it could be, is that relevant somehow?

Or do you just not have any actual arguments as to why trike should get away with free attacks, for its size, health, spar, extra head defense instead of weakness, and so on

[faint robin]

Its not weak at all, i have nothing to argue with fellow stego main at this point

[golden coral]

Its weak for what it could be

[faint robin]

Trike's weakness is its poor turn, low speed, stam and slow attacks

[golden coral]

And stego weakness is much lower health, extra head multiplier, also low speed, and slow attacks in jab angles

[faint robin]

Its only weak against reasonably stronger trike (which you can just not fight at all)

[golden coral]

So... again, why should one have extreme stam cost while the other apparently can dish out 4K damage freely, makes no sense

[golden coral]

"reasonably stronger", no, far stronger. But that's fine, stego can escape trike

[faint robin]

Two different playables, why cera can spam bite while trike attacks once a year

[golden coral]

That has nothing to do with why a similar, large, powerful critter, can dish out massive damage free, while the other can not

[lethal shale]

@deft breach @languid kraken Omni used to recover from knockdowns WAYY too fast back then, literally in under a second, which was insanely strong and nothing had any time to do a follow up attack after knocking down an Omni.

Currently it’s only increased by 0.5 seconds and is more bearable to fight against if you for example ambush one as a carno.

[dusky surge]

And it’s complete lack of bleed resist

[faint robin]

Why cera can turn on a dime while dibble turns like a truck

[golden coral]

Do trike have that?

[dusky surge]

Trike has bleed res, yea

[golden coral]

Of course it does, why not

[faint robin]

Why maia runs 40+ km/h while dibble only at 37

[golden coral]

Maybe could give stego that too then at least

[dusky surge]

Trike also has far better combat stam

[faint robin]

Not the best one

[golden coral]

It still has apparently, stego has none

[faint robin]

Worse than cera and deino

[golden coral]

So still a point in favour

So, lower stego stam costs massively would be fine

[faint robin]

Cuz trike is tad slower

[faint robin]

Not against that tho

[golden coral]

Wasnt it massively slower?

[languid kraken]

If you need an extra half second to land a hit on a omni that’s not a mechanic issue it’s a skill issue. You can combat omnis just fine without stunlocking them on the floor because that’s the only time you can get a hit in.

[faint robin]

Stego will get a reworked kit im sure

[dusky surge]

It did

[golden coral]

Extra half a second isn't that long, it might have been needed. But do you perhaps have demonstrations showing how easy it was to hit knocked down omnis?

[golden coral]

It already got, why it's at least somewhat good and not terrible any longer

[dusky surge]

People complained about it and it got nerfed with insane stamcosts and reduced damage

[golden coral]

If jab cosst 2.5%, swing 5%, and running swing 10%, it'd be something

Then give it some bleed resist too, and stability bonus when tail is raised or some such

[languid kraken]

Those extra 0.5 seconds are a death sentence to omni. https://youtu.be/zALlSFF8DVI?si=UQ9HKO-1ht7w7XSJ

[faint robin]

Im not against giving stego less stam costs, im against touching trike aside from thrash tune

[golden coral]

So I've heard. I would like to see how easy it was to hit omnis before the change, so I can compare if it really was a skill issue or not. Is there such examples in that video?

[golden coral]

Alright, fair enough. I don't mind if trike can do that, I just don't think it's reasonable it can, while stego has such bad stam it kind of relies on tactile to help it out

[faint robin]

Trike also kinda relies on tactile

[lethal shale]

You do know that stunlock doesn’t exist anymore, right? Everything now has a whopping 5 seconds of immunity to any sort of cc after a stun or knockdown

It’s not a skill issue, it was literally impossible to hit an Omni as anything that can do significant cc before it was back on its feet again.

[golden coral]

That's the issue here, I'm not neccesarily saying we should nerf your trike, rather that if it can get to do massive damage for free, so should stego, stego is far weaker in combat after all

Trike has the defensive head multiplier + spar and well, 3T extra health/blood

[faint robin]

I think stego will get reworked when rex comes

[golden coral]

Doubt it, it can run from rex too

[lethal shale]

Increase stego’s cc values to stun Rexes

[golden coral]

And they don't want a powerful stego

[lethal shale]

Rex is faster

[faint robin]

Cuz rex might be faster than stego

[golden coral]

Or well, full power stego I should say

[languid kraken]

You can watch some of his videos from before the update, but to be honest if you even play omni every so often, you can notice the difference

[faint robin]

Rex also has that speed increase during ambush attack with pin or whatever it was on ht

[golden coral]

@faint robinBasically what I meant earlier, it wasnt me saying stego is weak, but it could be 7.5-8T in size, and most certainly be buffed, it technically could be made an apex and itd be realistic and immersive enough

But they don't want stego to do that, so it won't

[golden coral]

Outstamina it, start running in time

Or so I've been told the solution will be vs rex at least

So yes, it can run, just run in time

Hence, no need to actually buff it

[faint robin]

Im just against nerfing trike for no reason, its only issue is thrash overperforming

[golden coral]

Well I've not played for quite a while, laptop can't run the game well you see. Not fun when fps is at 5 most of the time xD

[lethal shale]

Doesn’t work that way either, it’ll just get pinned

It WOULD work if stego was able to outmaneuver it to escape, like how troodon/dryo vs omni goes

But Rex and stego aren’t small tiers so yeah that won’t work

Dondi pretty much confirmed yesterday that Rex will oneshot stego

[languid kraken]

I meant knockdown, got ahead of myself. I play omni often, and it absolutely was possible to land another hit on omni when it was on the ground. It was based on the skill of the herbivore whether it landed or not. And regardless, if you need to animation lock a omni on the ground to beat it, that is a you problem

[faint robin]

I also don't see stego being both faster and as strong as trike, trike is reasonably slower and stronger

[golden coral]

Well, overperforming, I guess that remains to be seen with rex. Though they might want it to be a quick kill, so maybe it's fine. It's just the damage for free that I think is questionable, or well, is questionable when the other powerful herbi suffers from severe stam costs. And yes, 10%/15% for the swing/running swing (unless that got fixed) is pretty harsh

[golden coral]

Thing is, even if you did buff stego, it'd never be as strong, or capable, as trike

Purely due to how they work, one has extra weakness, the other extra defense. Stego would still not be able to square up to a trike that knows what its doing, like before the buff for trike

[lethal shale]

It doesn’t need to be

It just needs to be capable of defending against Rex

[languid kraken]

Lmao thats so real, gotta have a supercomputer to run the game above 20fps

[golden coral]

Well, capable of surviving rex, not defending neccesarily. But my point was more so that stego wouldnt be both faster and stronger than trike, even with buffs.

[golden coral]

Maybe rex will be very slow and clumsy?

So you can somehow juke it, I guess

[golden coral]

Oh, what did he say?

[languid kraken]

but yeah, 0.5 seconds may not seem like much but if you look at the vid I sent, it’s literally death for the omni. and they die easily as it is 💔

[lethal shale]

It’s faster than stego

And impossible to juke when you’re also a fat unagile dino

[languid kraken]

sucks to be locked to the floor as something so undurable

(i know that may seem ironic as we have pin, but pin isnt spammable and takes a bit of precision to even pull off)

[golden coral]

Well then I guess Dondi has some plan, right? Or is he okay with stegos just dying on being seen by a rex?

[amber wharf]

I mean, that's just how it is sometimes, unfortunately. Assuming the stego is aware, I assume it wouldn't be a huge issue since I think a lot of rex players at first are going to play pretty carelessly and starve, lol.

[golden coral]

Well, that just makes a playable unviable then if it can't survive the 1v1 encounter. I've been told it's not acceptable to buff stego to fight rex, and it should just run/outstamina, and now that does not seem valid either. So not sure what you're supposed to do then, but why would you ever grow a playable if you're doomed in certain encounters that you can't otherwise ensure you're never in.

[amber wharf]

I mean, I doubt diablo is going to be able to outrun/outpace rex either - even if they manage to lose the rex, they can just trot after w/ scent/footsteps and the rex will eventually catch up.

[golden coral]

At least diablo is faster than stego, so maybe it'll be fine

Just seems strange that they would suddenly be okay with "you're going to die if this thing sees you", no matter if it's diablo or stego or something else

[amber wharf]

regaining stam on a diablo is tedious and like I said, if the rex is tracking, little the diablo can do. and by your logic, noone should play any dino besides deino? because at any time they can just get grabbed (excluding I guess trike/stego is not swimming) and drown without being able to fight?

how fast is stego right now and how fast are they planning on making rex (if that's been said)?

[golden coral]

I mean, the lunge does have all kinds of issues, so yes, it needs a rework. I know I¨'m not the only one that takes issue with how it's more RNG than not, and that the only counterplay is to just only drink in safe spots.

But there are safespots, which is a counter. Is there a "safe spot" for diablo and stego vs rex

Cause if I can just go somewhere rex can't, or just won't due to suffering horribly for doing so, that could work

A very boring way of dealing with an encounter, just like lunge, but it'd work

[amber wharf]

I think they did great w. steg in evrima, and after being the 'apex' of evrima for so long, finding itself in a no longer position of mighty power, people are upset.

[golden coral]

They really didn't, but we're not going to agree on stegos design in Evrima at all. And not being in a position of power, has nothing to do with surviving.

[amber wharf]

How long have you played? lmaooo

[dusky surge]

I think you misunderstand. People don’t care that it’s no longer an apex, people care that it seems like it’s no longer viable

[golden coral]

Longer than you most likely, not that it matters, stegos design in Evrima was never good, and until it got swing, it was a rather bad playable. Even now, it has way too high stam cost.

[slim dragon]

At what point was stego ever uncontested ?

[amber wharf]

sometimes that is literally nature. you get caught and there is little you can do about it.

[golden coral]

Exactly. This delusion that "Oh you're just upset rex and trike are more powerful" is so weird

[amber wharf]

plase inform me because stego was a power house and could fight 3 deinos at once before and come out on top.

[golden coral]

And this is a game, so let's make it fun, and not like that. Also what did diablo do wrong then?

[dusky surge]

Yea and that’s not good game design. No other animal in the game is like that, so why is it suddenly allowed because it happens to stego?

[golden coral]

Cause you're saying diablo would also just die, not just stego. And diablo never had stegos position so.

[amber wharf]

If you go further up, I said diablo is also going to be unlikely to escape an encounter.

[dusky surge]

Also bad lol

[golden coral]

And died to most of everything else. And that only happened very rarely, and only really with swing. Before then, two deinos would kill you if they knew what they were doing. At one point a single deino could kill you via "rear biting".

[dusky surge]

In fact arguably worse because there’s even LESS a dibble can do about that

[amber wharf]

okay yeah, no point in arguing with you if you think previous stego wasn't a power house and died to 'everything else'. 💀

[golden coral]

Spiro stego was really bad, and even with swing, stam cost is harsh, so stego isn't really that good. But maybe that'll be shown more now that trike and rex will be properly powerful

[dusky surge]

Imma be real people very much oversell stego’s power lol

[golden coral]

No, I don't think it was. And it was also badly designed and unfun, with really bad jab attack.

[slim dragon]

Why does everyone forget that stego used to be absolute fodder at some point
To the point where it lost to even a dryo

[amber wharf]

I played stego back on spiro. 💀 Stegos literally flew off cliffs out of boredom for being alive for so long.

[dusky surge]

Yet carnos, omnis, ceras, pachies, dilos or even dryos have dominated the ecosystem more lol

[golden coral]

You think stego design was/is good, they did good. I think they have designed stego pretty badly, and has put it in a strange spot

[golden coral]

Before jab hit the ground. Oh and carno thagomizer biting (due to a bug, but still)

[dusky surge]

I still remember when people realised dryo was the most powerful animal in U3 and started forming kill squads that obliterated those who thought them an easy meal

Genuinely hysterical

[golden coral]

People really do think stego is somehow much more powerful than it is, I think it's the high damage, and so they ignore everything else bad about the playable

[dusky surge]

Watching an adult raptor be subject to the whims of the dryo horde descending upon it

[golden coral]

But even if stego should just die to rex, why should diablo, what did it do wrong?

[slim dragon]

he ate grass

[dusky surge]

Also stego is literally a damage number and a HP number. Strip those things away and it has nothing

[potent fox]

Did they chance something about it?

[dusky surge]

Nerfed its damage, HP and speed

It was funny while it lasted tho

[potent fox]

Damn so they are capable of doing actual nerfs when it’s not cera

[golden coral]

I know, but still, serious question. I get people hating stego, unreasonable as it is, but that shouldnt be cause for other playables to suffer

[slim dragon]

Cera was nerfed at some point too
Used to be able to kill stegos without leaving them the slightest chance if there was 2 ceras

[dusky surge]

It confuses me. Who’s going to be playing these animals for Rex to be sustainable if no one wants to play them because they only exist to sustain Rex?

Ironically, in order to make an adequate population to help Rex thrive, you have to make them have an option to survive Rex

[potent fox]

Je fair enough just feels like they overshot with dryo. Its kick dmg is still surprisingly high but everything else is awful. Especially how it weighs significantly less than herra

[golden coral]

I guess they'd have to have another reason to be stego or diablo then, somehow

[slim dragon]

I wish pachy was viable so I could play it again

But also the game is less fun when servers are almost exclusively ceras

[dusky surge]

I swear Rex players just assume people will play these animals because Rex needs something to hunt and someone has to fulfil this noble cause lol

People don’t play things that aren’t fun or waste their time

Case in point pachy

[golden coral]

Well, if the option is stego, dies on sight unless in herds. Or trike, can fight off potentially two rexes on it's own. I don't really see adding what, 4-5 more hours of growth (that seemingly isn't that harsh, trike has good growth curve, no?) being much of a "I'd rather grow a stego" motivation.

[dusky surge]

It’s even more offensive with dibble because it’s either “trike” or “smaller trike that exists to die to Rex”

[true ginkgo]

Literally how people view stego

[viscid mica]

@kind laurel 8k? Lmao not a chance

6k max and exclusive to stego as it’s the only one with 2x headshot damage

[golden coral]

Hm?

[viscid mica]

@wise swift what’s your point? Both the things you’ve mentioned are faster than trike and can easily avoid it?

[wise swift]

That is true, however that amount of dmg on an attack is insane

[viscid mica]

@crystal wharf who is you doing 9k damage too?

[viscid mica]

It’s exclusive to a knock down

[golden coral]

If you're talking about trike thrash. It's 4K and 6K normally, on bodyshots, on standing vs knocked down

Stego obviously takes more on headshots, trikes takes less on headshots, and so on

[viscid mica]

It does 3k body shot

I’m not sure of knocked down multiplier

Plus the thrash doesn’t register half the time if thrown out on standing target

[wise swift]

Either or if a Rex was hit by it wether the player was stupid or it was stunned (if they add that cc) that’s still a massive amount of dmg

[golden coral]

No, it does 2K, times two, on body shot. And 3K, times two, on body shot on knocked down. It hits twice.

[viscid mica]

Mmmm ya double hit

[golden coral]

So you can oneshot a stego with normal thrash on a headshot

[viscid mica]

Ya they could stand to reduce that a lil

[golden coral]

Also I don't believe stego damage has been nerfed, I saw something about that, but it does not seem to be correct

[kind laurel]

2x 4020 damage on head

[viscid mica]

The math is mathing rn that’s fair I didn’t realize it was a two piece

Double tap smh

Brooklyn style dam messed up world

[golden coral]

I guess it's like beipi swipe (it does have something like that, right, multi hit attack?)

[viscid mica]

@icy blaze stego is faster and can simply trot/run away

[kind laurel]

maybe more with knock down, but Im not sure

[viscid mica]

Na that math sounds right

[lethal shale]

That’s funny, you fool can’t you realize that isle players have no concept of running away or survival in general?

[viscid mica]

Sorry forgot the community is a PvP slasher shoved into a survival game

[lethal shale]

There you go, that’s more like it

[maiden temple]

How's stego's stam compared to trike? Anyone did a race with both yet?

[viscid mica]

Equal if not better

[kind laurel]

stego has 20 or 25% more I think

[viscid mica]

Plus stego is faster so you can make distance and trot for stam

[golden coral]

Better, but not sure how much. It's not that much faster, so probably have more, but not that much more stam too.

[maiden temple]

Ahh that's good then

[viscid mica]

If you don’t use heavy attacks

[dusky surge]

Issue is powerswing melts it lol

[viscid mica]

Power swings cost 10 sprinting 15/17 min by sprint cost

[maiden temple]

Yeah I'm thinking a heard it and ran away right then and there scenario. Just getting away

[golden coral]

Yeah but you're not fighting a trike anyway

So no need to even swing at it

[viscid mica]

Your best option is to just give the trike the space it wants

[maiden temple]

Not anymore xD

[viscid mica]

As dondi said in Gen chat the other day

Trikes will bring back social distancing

[maiden temple]

Hahahhah

[golden coral]

And then they'll complain about being bored too

[maiden temple]

I wish it worked for my teno too, all ceras want to hug me

[viscid mica]

Apex game play is boring in general

[golden coral]

Curious to see how omnis and troodon will handle not being able to hunt a trike, unless they actually can, which would be hilarious

[maiden temple]

I like it sometimes. Just chill, eat my veggies and watch people fight

[viscid mica]

You only really get consistently challenged by the same 4 things which aren’t in the game yet

[viscid mica]

Fun fact those two hunt trikes the easiest

[maiden temple]

A pack of troos is scary to everything tbh

Raptors have their struggles

[golden coral]

Which is really weird to me

[viscid mica]

The high agility and horde style of hunting makes it very good

[golden coral]

But I guess troodon hunting rex should be fine too

[viscid mica]

You see I disagree cuz everyone tries to do damage when if yall just do bleed they die super fast

[golden coral]

At least that'll give the rexes something to worry about

[golden coral]

Really? I'll have to see if that holds up in the long run then

[viscid mica]

Dilos in groups will be very threating to Rex’s

[maiden temple]

Yeah finding a pack that won't just let themselves die so I end up in a 1v1 with a stego/trike is hard if not impossible these days

[golden coral]

Curious to see if it will apply to rex too, since the only sentiment on omni I've heard there is, 20+ omnis vs one rex, half the pack dies anyway

[viscid mica]

Tell me about it

[maiden temple]

It's not, they target a different health pool, one that's harder to have control over so imho it makes perfect sense

[viscid mica]

Na Rex is abit different has better turn most likely

[golden coral]

Maybe, if that's how it will turn out

[maiden temple]

If they're in for a looong fight, they'll win

[viscid mica]

So I’d say dilos/ troos would be better than omni

[golden coral]

How do you mean with different health pool?

[maiden temple]

Dilos are weird with the clones

[viscid mica]

Indeed

[maiden temple]

Bleed instead of HP

[golden coral]

Still a large rex, can't imagine it turns very well

[dusky surge]

Imma be real I love it. The troodon is just the defacto snake of the isle. Even elephants have to worry about the tiny snake, and that carries over

[maiden temple]

You have 2 separate health pools in game, only one needs to hit 0 to die

[viscid mica]

Na but far better than trike

[golden coral]

Troodons don't really do bleed, though?

[viscid mica]

ACTUALLY

they changed bleed troos do amazing bleed

Especially on t3 venom hits

[golden coral]

I think it's really odd, snakes don't actually go hunting stuff like that, so it's a bit of a weird comparison to me

[maiden temple]

It's scary, that's all I'm gonna say

[viscid mica]

A troo pouncing another troo does neary half bleed

[golden coral]

Really? So how much bleed do they do, then?

[viscid mica]

I don’t know exact values

[golden coral]

That's even weirder, considering it has the damage pounce multiplier thing

[viscid mica]

All I know it’s a noticeable amount

[maiden temple]

It's enough to make you reconsider running around trying to chase them

[golden coral]

Speaking of bleed, anyone know how much bleed res trikes have? Since they apparently have that

[viscid mica]

Troos must be thought of like this

Alone they are annoying but not usually lethal to anything over 1T

In small groups anything short of a dibble is at risk

In hordes may god help you

[maiden temple]

0.34 bleed per tick I think it was? Someone posted a video a bit ago. I might be wrong

[golden coral]

Which is really strange, is all I can say

[maiden temple]

They were showing new cera bleed res too

[golden coral]

Troodon seems to be allowed to punch up way beyond what they should

[maiden temple]

It's 1 shot if you can land the hits, so they are allowed only 1 mistake

[golden coral]

Hm, what would that translate into in resistance then

[viscid mica]

The power of venom and numbers is almighty

[golden coral]

Still excessive I'd say

[golden coral]

But with how tiny and agile they are, that's not exactly easy

[maiden temple]

Hard to say, carno is like 0.6 per tick though if that helps. I'll look for the video

[golden coral]

Most reason they die is bugs or desync or stuff, or so it seems judging by peoples complaints

[golden coral]

Well, carno no longer has any bleed resist or multiplier I don't think so

[maiden temple]

Easy if you use terrain, hard if you just stand there and play whack-a-troo

[viscid mica]

Well think of this it does 80 hit per pounce at t3 you can pounce roughly 18 times for full stam bar with enough to run and hide

[golden coral]

Guess it could mean trike has 50% resist or some such then? Though that sounds like a lot, so probably not

[viscid mica]

X that by how ever many troodons are in your gang

[golden coral]

Ugh, terrain again xD

[viscid mica]

It adds up

Now kind you t3 only lasts for 45s

So you have to constantly reapply

[golden coral]

Yeah, I think that seems excessive when you can have what, 10+ troodons in a pack?

[viscid mica]

10 I think

But you gotta consider EVERYTHING 1 taps you

[golden coral]

Yeah, so that's a whole lot of damage and bleed, for a very tiny critter, even in groups

[viscid mica]

Your a 60kg venom rat

[golden coral]

Yeah, but you have your agility, size (hiding) and all that, + the funny venom fog

[viscid mica]

There are bugs that can 1 tap you with venom

Welcome to the joys of chemical warfare

[golden coral]

Can't really account for bugs or lag though

[maiden temple]

I can handle big groups on teno and pachy, idk how well ceratopsians do against them. I imagine stego won't really struggle much lol

[golden coral]

I don't mind it, I just don't think they should punch up to apex, or even near, really

[viscid mica]

You notice every pocket creature that is on or around you?

[golden coral]

Apparently stego does struggle, if I'm to believe that troodons can kill them somewhat reliably

[golden coral]

Hm?

[maiden temple]

Nah huge groups of creatures should be able to punch up, if they stand on top of each other they'd be rex size ok

[viscid mica]

With enough bodies and you can do anything

[golden coral]

Even 10 troodons is what, 600kg in total. Not even a single dilo.

[golden coral]

Sure, if it actually took like, I don't know, 20+ of them perhaps.

[dusky surge]

I’ll be real I kinda love it. Makes Troodon sit in a super unique spot in the ecosystem as a tiny tier that can effectively engage in the combat everyone loves and has an extremely unique position in the ecosystem as the ultimate horde predator

[viscid mica]

And every single 1 can be one shot by the entire roaster

Plus like the Rex could just walk away

I Garantee Rex trots faster than troo does

[dusky surge]

If it does, that’s extremely concerning ngl

[maiden temple]

I like it too, fighting off troo zergs is fun

[golden coral]

I'm sure it's fun, but it doesn't make much sense to me, is all. I think it's way too excessive.

[golden coral]

But with the ability to avoid being hit in the first place being really good. So, that kind of helps on that account.

[viscid mica]

I mean does a 5ft person walk as fast as a 6ft

[dusky surge]

Troodon has a very high trotrate. Rex exceeding that would make it able to effectively just trot down everything in the game, making legacy giga 2.0

[golden coral]

Well, trike is apex too so.

[viscid mica]

Trike is a giant potato

[viscid mica]

Mmm fair fair

[dusky surge]

I don’t see what that has to do with what he said

[maiden temple]

trotting is kinda my thing, better not be too fast

[viscid mica]

In relevance to speed trike will never be quick

[golden coral]

Well, a teno should be huntable obviously. A dibble too. Maybe even a maia in a massive pack. But like, when you're getting over 4-5T, I'm not sure it should be that doable.

[golden coral]

Apex still, potato or not xD

[viscid mica]

Funny enough teno is one of if not the hardest hunt for troodon

[viscid mica]

A whole lot of meat

[steep gazelle]

Are you talking about troodon?

[golden coral]

Which makes the whole situation weirder to me

[viscid mica]

Indeed

[viscid mica]

Not at all

This isn’t legacy

Evirma combat is super dynamic

Everything punches in different ways and ranges

[steep gazelle]

Troodon can use 40 pounces with full stam Bar now

[maiden temple]

The bigger and slower the dino the easier to pounce it

More surface to cling to

[golden coral]

It can be dynamic and varied and still work in different ways than it currently does. I'm not sure why it's strange that I can think it's weird, any more than you think it's fine.

[viscid mica]

I knew I was shooting low

[steep gazelle]

Very low xd

[golden coral]

Right, but they are also so big, you shouldn't have much of an effect on them

[viscid mica]

No no I’m not saying your wrong

I’m just saying that the dynamic of how things interact is way different so a tiny tier in numbers can even challenge a single giant

[viscid mica]

I don’t count man I just pounce till 60 trot abunch and repeat

[maiden temple]

Well considering it's bleed and venom it would (eventually). Maybe it should take more injections though

[steep gazelle]

Well, Troodon is a hunter of large prey, prey like the stego. It is in a good spot currently, even though it still needs a speed increase when it is juv

[golden coral]

And I don't mind that, it's just that "tiny" and "giant" to me is 60kg vs 6T, and more. That's a massive difference, simply more than I think is reasonable. A full pack of 10 troodons hunting something around 3-4T, I can see that. But above that, not so sure. And 4T, for a troodon pack that all together is 600 kg if we add it up, is still massive to me.

Hunting something that, to your entire pack, is still 5x your size, is pretty impressive in the first place. Being able to hunt something 10x your size seems excessive to me.

[dusky surge]

I mean, that’s the point of the venom is it not

[golden coral]

It's how I would do it, add more pounces for every stage the larger the critter is

[golden coral]

I mean, not really. Venom isn't used for that for real, if you wanted to look at the snake example. It's used for quick kills when the target can otherwise get away and you can't go after it, rather than to kill much larger stuff.

[maiden temple]

That'd be a fun idea tbh

[viscid mica]

I’ve solo’d a dibble before….

[golden coral]

But in game, sure. And I'm not sure how me saying "kill things 3T is fine" means I'm against troodon punching up or killing larger stuff with venom

[maiden temple]

https://youtu.be/IPrqVxOhufo
This video has bleed stuff

[dusky surge]

I’d honestly really dislike this as someone who plays Troo a lot. It’s so small and nerfing its punch up like this (especially when all dilo has to do is a non-stamcost, non-committal bite) feels like a kick in the nuts

[steep gazelle]

Troodon takes hitkill from anything. In a fight he cannot fail even once, because it will be his death

[golden coral]

Unless you all don't consider 5x your entire pack weight to be punching up

[viscid mica]

Troodon is a venom rat it uses venom to punch really far up

[maiden temple]

You'd just have to work a bit harder to max venom on huge animals, tbh that sounds fine

[golden coral]

Well, dilo is its own issue, is it not. But like, I don't get why you feel the need to kill apexes, or even something near that.

[golden coral]

Yes, but we differ on what is "far up"

[dusky surge]

I mean, most of the time, that’s not happening, regardless of how rapidly you can apply venom

[viscid mica]

But they are completely 1 tappable

[golden coral]

Either a really terrible dibble then, or you're proving my point of troodon being excessive

[dusky surge]

You just don’t do enough damage to have that happen

[maiden temple]

Trike is the top of the apex tier, it just seems weird for matchups atm since we only have a handful of playables

[golden coral]

If they were also easy to see and hit, slow, and otherwise inagile, like dilo perhaps, then sure

[golden coral]

Which, like with omni, is kind of negated by your speed, agility, and size (+ venom fog)

[viscid mica]

He wasn’t great that’s for sure but I also sweat troodon hard

Even good dibbles I can usually much about 1k health before I start having stam issues

[golden coral]

It seems to happen plenty enough honestly, but I'll wait and see how it goes for trike and rex for a while and see

[viscid mica]

You do realize dilos will absolutely haunt Rex’s in groups especially at night right?

[steep gazelle]

That's exactly what speed and agility are for xd

[cosmic pelican]

10 troodons is a combined growth of nearly 10 hours, while a dibble for example takes a little over 3 hours to grow

[viscid mica]

They are super fast and will have allot of hit and roun power

[golden coral]

Yes, which does mean that it's not much of a point, since you have what negates the issue in the first place, thus making it a non issue.

[viscid mica]

And once they get t3 it’s all jover for Rex

[dusky surge]

It happens in very unique niche cases, not enough that makes me think there’s reason to nerf Troo in this regard

[golden coral]

Maybe, we'll see. But that wasn't the point there.

[viscid mica]

Dilo has just as much if not way more punch up power than troodon with way more speed and health

[golden coral]

To be fair, I also think it should take more effort to kill "smaller" things too. I do not like that everything gets stage three venom in three pounces only.

[golden coral]

Right, but that's not how you count growth. Unless you personally grow them all.

[viscid mica]

I’m extremely confident evirma dilos will be on smoke with FG rexs at night

[steep gazelle]

Troodon doesn't currently have any issues that need a nerf. If you're having trouble with Troodon, the problem is with you (No offense)

[viscid mica]

If legacy dilos could do it evirma ones can do it 100000x better

[golden coral]

Maybe, but it doesn't look that way at times at least

[golden coral]

No, my issue is the capability of it, simple as that. And I like that people alwyas refer to skill issues, yet they never prove it.

[cosmic pelican]

Theres still an insane difference in combined player effort. If it took 10 troodons to even have a chance to kill a dibble legit no one would have a reason to play it.

[lethal shale]

its a venomous hunter SPECIALIZED to taking on much larger prey

its not excessive

[viscid mica]

^ that’s on god

3-5 is more than enough

[golden coral]

Why not, why isn't a dibble a sufficient target? And is it really, cause I'm not sure I agree it's that much.

[viscid mica]

Any more is excessive

[cosmic pelican]

Imo, growth times should be one of the basis regarding balance. Otherfactors such as niche, speed etc should of course still be taken into account but growth time is an incredibly good representative on how a matchup should go.

[golden coral]

No, it's excessive as far as I see it. You're free to think otherwise, but I think it's very excessive.

[maiden temple]

It's not nearly as easy to fight the big boys as it seems

[golden coral]

Individual ones, yes. Group, no. Cause you don't grow as a group.

[lethal shale]

why would ANYONE play troodon if it took TEN to kill what theyre literally made to kill

[golden coral]

Because ... you enjoy playing the playable

[steep gazelle]

Troodon's ability is great and balanced. You must play carefully and you will be rewarded. You are "strong", but miss once and you are dead

[golden coral]

Are you arguing that people only play troodon because they can kill certain things?

[lethal shale]

well it wouldnt be very enjoyable in that case wouldnt it?

[lethal shale]

as a carnivore equipped with venom, then yes actually, because theres not much else you can do.

[golden coral]

I don't agree, or rather, I think it's simply too good, too excessive. It's not really a balance issue, as simply too much of a thing.

[viscid mica]

The fact that 10 players would have to come together be coordinated enough and probably have no more than 3 die to win that fight seems more than fair

[lethal shale]

youre specialized to hunt x dinosaur, it shouldnt take you an army to do that

[golden coral]

Why not, is the only thing that makes it enjoyable that you can kill large stuff?

Not the playable itself, not the way you hunt, or anything else then?

[viscid mica]

That’s just under 10 hours of gameplay required to stand a chance at slaying Rex let alone not a Garantee

[cosmic pelican]

10 troodons is already a rare sight, In my 2800 hours on this game I have NEVER encountered a pack that big.
Not even mentioning that what you said would also effect other matchups needing way more troodons than whats actually feasily or makes sense.

[lethal shale]

thats literally its niche

and considering that niche is what makes ANY playable enjoyable, then yes.

[golden coral]

Where do we get the idea that troodon is specialized in punching up that far?

[lethal shale]

concept art and the teaser clips we saw of it

[viscid mica]

I’ve been apart of 2 mega hordes and they where complete chaos losing 5+ per fight

[golden coral]

Would it really? Especially considering you don't even know how I would do it, or where any limits would be?

[lethal shale]

we constantly see it hunting tenos everywhere

[viscid mica]

It is ni impossible to well coordinate more than 6

[golden coral]

Okay, and a diablo isn't a large thing to a troodon then?

[cosmic pelican]

Why not? The more you think about it the more sense it starts making.
1 diablo for example has no shot at taking on a stego, since the stego grew for twice as long if not more, but 2 diablos have a chance since their combined growth time equals the stegos.

[golden coral]

Which had teno, yes? Carno, yes?

[lethal shale]

in the teaser for troodon, a pack of them swarmed a teno and we heard it die offscreen

[golden coral]

Is a teno the same size as a diablo now? Or a stego? Or a trike?

And yes, a pack swarmed a solo teno

Pack would imply at least 3+ members

[lethal shale]

stegos and trikes may need more than 5, sure, but dibbles and heck even maias? no way

[golden coral]

Diablo and maia are way larger, so? What?

[viscid mica]

Teno has a significantly better kit for fighting large groups

Same with stego

[golden coral]

If a teno should take at least 3, how should a diablo or maia not take at least 2-3 more then?

[viscid mica]

Teno honestly takes way more

[golden coral]

Stego and trike should just be too large to hunt, is kind of my point

[golden coral]

And yet its what troodon is shown hunting

[lethal shale]

considering how easily troodon dies and how hard it is to be good at it let alone find others who are ALSO good at it, it should not take more than 5 troodons to take down a dibble or maia

[viscid mica]

It’s a concept show take it at face value not as the god send of end all be alls

[golden coral]

But like, is the argument you're making that if you can't kill larger things than a diablo, or a maia perhaps, in a full pack, then the playable sucks?

[golden coral]

I know, but even so

[viscid mica]

That would be like taking concept art as “THATS HOW IT MUST GO”

[viscid mica]

It’s irrelevant

[golden coral]

But I'm a little confused, because diablo, at 3T, is 5x the size of a full, 10 pack of troodons. How is that not a large target?

[steep gazelle]

Dibble can deal with Troodon easily as long as he doesn't spam alt attacks, and this also applies to all other Playables. Troodon is a hunter of large prey, and it fills this niche very well and has a huge weakness like the 1 shot
Troodon also doesn't deal very well with creatures in pairs or groups, only solo

[lethal shale]

troodons can only take down trikes with INSANE determination, trike outheals like 60% of the damage troodons deal so it takes them about an hour to take one down. same with stego really

troodons should be able to take them down if theyre patient and determined enough

[viscid mica]

Dibble is a mid sized Dino when considering the isle roaster plan

[golden coral]

Yet if you can't kill larger things, or require a full pack for that, then the playable sucks and no one would play it?

[golden coral]

Large compared to troodon, no?

[golden coral]

And diablo is a large prey, or?

[lethal shale]

yeah- because its not that easy gathering fully grown troodons that are actually skilled especially with how easily they can die

[viscid mica]

Everything is large compared to troodons they are tiny and everything 1 taps them

[golden coral]

Which is what you judge it by

Like how carno hunts small game, well, for carno that is

[viscid mica]

Bro nearly fresh spawn carnos can wipe entire troodon groups

[steep gazelle]

Anything larger than Troodon is a large prey, some it has an easier time handling and others it doesn't.

[golden coral]

Even so, I simply find that excessive, and don't think it should be a thing. And somehow this translates into "troodon shouldn't hunt large targets" and "it would suck if it can't hunt trike and stego"?

[golden coral]

Yes, and there's such a thing as too large, far as I'm concerned

[viscid mica]

K how would you give it an exemption for 1 and it not apply to all?

[lethal shale]

troodon is specialized to hunt large targets though?

[golden coral]

How do you mean?

[maiden temple]

Pack animals need bigger targets to feed the entire pack

I see it this way ^

[golden coral]

Yes, and large to a troodon, is teno, even larger is diablo, and maia is massive. So, if I say "limit should be diablo/maybe maia", that somehow means troodon no longer hunt large targets?

So to you, diablo is not a large target? Maia is not a large target?

[steep gazelle]

No prey is too big for the Troodon, that's what it's for

[golden coral]

Cause at this point it feels like you're completely either missing the point, or ignoring it

[viscid mica]

They are mid sized in the isles roaster

[golden coral]

And that's what I disagree with, simple as

[cosmic pelican]

I just dont see why we must nerf it in such a specific regard when most of those playables that are mentioned can literally outheal the damage done.

[golden coral]

I think there should absolutely be limits to punching up, for all playables really

[golden coral]

But you have to compare with the playable, not the roster

[viscid mica]

The only way to do that would be to completely nuke troodon

[steep gazelle]

It's like Cerato being a scavenger (Doesn't fulfill any of his role correctly) and Carno being a Small prey hunter (Only fulfills part of his role correctly)

[viscid mica]

No change beyond significantly reducing damage would hard stop them from punching up to apex’s

[lethal shale]

to a troodon it is, but in terms fo the entire roster, then no not really

[viscid mica]

Everything is a large target than

[golden coral]

I've not at any point said we must. I have just said I find it excessive and too much, that's it. I've not proposed, or argued for anything. I would personally add more pounces for the stages, cause I think it's silly that you can fully envenom a trike in three pounces. That's about it. Aside from that, I am trying to understand why diablo is not considered a large target to a troodon.

[golden coral]

Large is relative. Thats the point, yes.

[lethal shale]

yeah with that mindset then even an omni is a large target

[golden coral]

But you must compare to the playable, like how you compare small game hunter for carno.

[maiden temple]

Thing is it makes no sense for a pack of troos to go after something 'smaller', since these smaller ones turn better, see better, run faster and can fight back way more effectively

Huge tiers are easier to hunt in comparison

[cosmic pelican]

I actually did some math the other day, it takes around 200 pounces to kill a fg trike if youre constantly pouncing, if it camps, it just outheals the damage you do indefinetly lol

[golden coral]

Right, and small game hunter, means small game compared to carno. Not small game for an omni. Or small game for a rex.

[lethal shale]

ok

troodon should only hunt stuff smaller than omni because omni is huge in comparison and is therefore a large target

[cosmic pelican]

I see, my bad

[golden coral]

Okay, now please explain where you get that from

Cause that is at no poont, nowhere near, what I've said

Omni is indeed large to a troodon, teno is large and should be a pack hunt, diablo is at the high end of very large, should require an almost full pack. Depending on target, some overextension would be fine, like maia (since it's not a very combat oriented playable), even if it is larger, but it should require a full pack.

[lethal shale]

by your logic, the pack hunter specialized with venom and equipped with tools to take on prey comically larger then them should not hunt large prey like omni

because omni is large from the viewpoint of a troodon.

[elfin night]

Where do I even start…#balance-feedback message

[golden coral]

Somehow... this means I think troodon should only hunt omnis?

[viscid mica]

Your own context if large is relevant and omni is large compared to troodon why should troodon punch that far up?

[golden coral]

It should hunt large prey, I consider diablo and teno to be large prey.

[viscid mica]

Rage bait don’t

[lethal shale]

so is omni

everything is large prey for troodon, where do you draw the line?

[golden coral]

Cause I think it's fine that it can punch up, in packs, to teno, even diablo.

[viscid mica]

Just not what you plan to main

[golden coral]

Right, at what I think is reasonable. Which is why I've kept saying I find troodon excessive. Nothing more, or less.

[viscid mica]

[golden coral]

What?

[lethal shale]

how does hunting what youre specialized to hunt make you excessive?

[golden coral]

I would look at it's weight, then calculate from there.

[viscid mica]

What what you argument makes no sense

[steep gazelle]

Have you died to troodon recently? 🧐

[elfin night]

Watch me

[golden coral]

Because I don't see it being specialized in hunting everything. I see it specialized in punching up, to a reasonable degree. I'm not sure how this is... am I just phrasing things badly again?

[lethal shale]

ughhhh im capable of taking on the stuff i was made to take on this is so excessivveeee i should be awful at my jobbb gfhgshdgh

[lethal shale]

10 troodons for a dibble is NOT reasonable

[golden coral]

No, cause I've not played for like, a year or so, can't, no good pc. Not that it would matter anyway, it has nothing to do with the argument at all.

[viscid mica]

But what determines “reasonable” punch up?

[cosmic pelican]

Just base matchups on growth time 🙏
Ever since I started doing it balance discussions feel like a bliss

[golden coral]

As far as I can see, it is. you clearly disagree.

[viscid mica]

Why is it

[golden coral]

I would, but your way of doing that is not at all how I would do it.

[lethal shale]

then who are you to talk about troodon if you havent even seen it in action personally??

[steep gazelle]

That answers a lot

[golden coral]

I don't think troodon was meant to take on a trike or a rex.

[maiden temple]

It really does lol

[lethal shale]

clearly

[golden coral]

Really? How so?

[maiden temple]

The game balance is SOOO much different than last year

[steep gazelle]

The game has had a lot of changes in 1 year xd

[golden coral]

Cause I know how the game works, and how things have been, and still are

[viscid mica]

10 troodons is less weight than a dilo so the weight based argument doesn’t work

The time works in our favour so you’ve been ignoring when we mention that

So like what is the basis for a fair punch up

[lethal shale]

its not meant to, but it can, and if the pack really has it in them to be as gruelingly patient and coordinated to do so, then let them, they should be rewarded.

[golden coral]

Such as? Or rather, what changes has disproven me then?

[golden coral]

Which I disagree with, simple as.

[viscid mica]

Why

[lethal shale]

you disagree with rewarding the pack oriented creature for being pack oriented and coordinated?

[golden coral]

Cause if your point now is that balance has changd, so troodon can't hunt larger things than dibbbles, in packs, then why are we arguing?

[golden coral]

I disagree with the reward you seem to need.

[cosmic pelican]

If were being honest here, it really cant, as I explained above, in a perfect scenario, it takes ~200 pounces to kill a healthy trike that is in the wide open plains. One that is near terrain can indefinetly outheal any damage you do to it.

[lethal shale]

youre acting like a bunch of random stray troodons can just gather up and easily kill a trike with no effort

[golden coral]

I don't disagree with rewarding a pack with a diablo, but I disagree with rewarding it with a trike.

[viscid mica]

So his reason it it’s not fair cuz he thinks it’s not fair with no actual reasoning for it

[lethal shale]

it takes HOURS.

[golden coral]

No, I am looking at what you actually can do in game, nothing more or less

[maiden temple]

But why?

[golden coral]

Same as yours, fancy that.

[steep gazelle]

No change refuted you. It's just that you can't tell if the current state of troodon is good or not if you haven't played the game in a year

[viscid mica]

BROTHER

MY GUY

MY DUDE

this is rage bait

Chat he is rage baiting us

[golden coral]

And I've not said anything about current state troodon good or bad, have I?

[viscid mica]

We’ve been had

[lethal shale]

yeah- that is what you can actually do ingame

it takes hours of relentless coordination with no breaks to successfully take down a trike as a pack of troos

they deserve to be rewarded if they really are that good

[golden coral]

I've said that I think troodon punching up as far as it seemingly can, is excessive to me

[viscid mica]

That’s why he has no reason

It’s all rage bait

[cosmic pelican]

Trike heals around 150hp every 10 seconds or so while standing for some context

[golden coral]

And I don't think it needs to be able to do that

[viscid mica]

I’ve been got

[golden coral]

It's literally not

[cosmic pelican]

And thats without any diet at all

[lethal shale]

ok lets make the already unpopular playable more unpopular and weak yayyy

[steep gazelle]

It takes a lot of effort to keep a bait for so long, so I doubt it a little xd

[viscid mica]

Than explain WHY it’s not fair

[golden coral]

Cause I don't think the playable needs to punch up that far, I don't think any playable needs to be able to punch up to such a massive degree

[viscid mica]

So it’s just cuz he thinks

[steep gazelle]

He seems really trying to make a point, even though he hasn't played the game for a year lol

[golden coral]

Fair? It's excessive. And it's so, because there's no need for the playable to be able to kill those things, to be fun, or viable, or anything else. And why is it good then, aside from you liking it? Thinking it's fair, or saying it wouldn't be fun if it couldn't? You have no more reason than I do, if that's what you're complaining about.

[golden coral]

Why would it be unpopular, I don't see why hunting diablos and maias aren't good enough.

And no one has explained why it isn't

[viscid mica]

Simple Rex and trike take roughly 12 hours to FG

For the 10 troos that’s nearly 10 hours

[golden coral]

That's not how growth works.

[viscid mica]

Meaning the equal trade of time if roughly equal

[cosmic pelican]

Preach 🗣️

[viscid mica]

Excuse you what?

[lethal shale]

but you want 10 troodons to be able to take on a dibble? now THATS excessive

[golden coral]

I'm trying to understand why you have a need for troodon to be able to kill trikes and stegos, and if it couldn't, it would just be a terrible playable. That's about the point I'm gettting from you.

[viscid mica]

Na char it’s rage bait it’s 100% rage bait dude cannot be saying that’s not how growing works

[golden coral]

You can't combine growth. You only grow your own playable.

[maiden temple]

But it makes sense to hunt something that has a much harder time hitting you, especially for pouncers, even if it takes you as long as your entire food reserve you'll have a higher chance to survive the encounter, so I don't understand why would they be artificially unable to hunt an apex. It takes everything they have

[onyx lichen]

@steep gazelle Dilo was removed because Devs want to slowly replace the carnivores with herbivores in the diets

[golden coral]

When you've personally invested all that time, then it's equal. Not until then.

[viscid mica]

Yes and? The time trade off is still equal

Even if it’s divided by multiple people

[dusky surge]

But it’s no more likely to do that then, say, a very committed group of herreras. The fact of the matter is while it CAN envenomate a trike, that by no means secures a kill, or even gets close to it.

All creatures can damage other creatures. A hypsi can apply its status effect universally, regardless of size, but god knows it can’t kill the things it blinds

[steep gazelle]

I suspect that it really is

[golden coral]

I'm sure someone would think so. But why is it excessive the other way around then?

[maiden temple]

It's not a scenario where a trike is defenseless and can't deal with the little rats

[lethal shale]

if youre talking abt carno then thats stupid

we have nearly no small game herbivores, carno should keep the small game carnivores on their diet because thats all there is to eat for small game

[viscid mica]

Na he dedicated as hell to the bit I give him that

[golden coral]

No it's not, cause you don't share the time. So no, it's not equal. Not in a way that's useful. And no, it's not ragebait. Why you think that is beyond me.

[viscid mica]

Ya it’s rage bait

[dusky surge]

You seem to be under the assumption that the venom is more than it is. It’s merely a status effect that troodon can apply, but against a trike, it’s unlikely to properly capitalise

[maiden temple]

I'll say it again - all herbis should be on carni diets because they all start as babus

[dusky surge]

It isn’t. Stop trying to disregard arguments like that

[steep gazelle]

This seems stupid to me. Dilo is currently one of the few small things in the game that Carno can hunt. Carno should be an exception to this

[viscid mica]

If it’s not rage bait than your a Rex main realizing how scary troodons can potentially be and don’t wanna die to them

[onyx lichen]

I agree

[viscid mica]

The problem is I haven’t seen a actual argument yet

[onyx lichen]

Especially since lines are nearly impossible to get on Carno

[dusky surge]

He’s given several. I don’t agree with them, but they’re absolutely present

[golden coral]

Yes. I'm not sure how I've said anything against that. I just find it excessive, why is this somehow not coming across? I don't think troodon needs to be able to punch up like that, I don't think a troodon should ever consider going for massive things like that. Am I just not allowed to think so?

[viscid mica]

What were they?

All I’ve seen is it’s not fair cuz I think it’s not fair

[maiden temple]

I wanted to askn if that's where the legendary (insert dino name) was, but I forgot its name already. The one with the dodge

[lethal shale]

no thats a federal felony youre going to jail

[onyx lichen]

Dryo is still on its diet

[lethal shale]

wetosaurus when

[golden coral]

Not at all, I know what it does. I simply don't think it needs to be able to do it, or do it as easily. Hence why I would add requirement of more pounces, to properly scale troodon in punching up.

[maiden temple]

That oneee, that was lines and I remember chasing them around center

[onyx lichen]

Troodon Discussion?

[cosmic pelican]

Troodon is NOT this serious ✌️🥀😭

[onyx lichen]

Yeah Dryo is lines

[golden coral]

What? No. That also has nothing to do with it. You do comprehend I can disagree with how something works, no matter if I play a playable or not, yes?

[lethal shale]

he wants 10 troodons minimum to be able to kill a dibble

[onyx lichen]

Seems like too much

[cosmic pelican]

Grab popcorn😄

[golden coral]

I've literally said, I find it excessive, I don't see why troodon needs to be able to do it. That's it. You all then went "No its fine, it should be able to do that" and that's where we're at.

[dusky surge]

Anything can go for anything, that’s the nature of the game, it comes down to “can I do anything with this”

For Troodon, unless via absurd circumstance, trike is invincible. There is effectively no reason to ever go after it, much like there is no reason to Herrera pounce on trike, yet you can, and the trike will bleed.

[onyx lichen]

Honestly at least 5 makes sense to me

[maiden temple]

Killing bigger stuff on troos is not easy, that's what we've been saying

It's doable, will most groups achieve it? Absolutely not

[golden coral]

And the counter argument is the same. Why is it only an issue when I say it?

[onyx lichen]

The fog did make Troodon less group reliant

[viscid mica]

I’m just trying to comprehend your point

Cuz like I haven’t seen any arguments outside of cuz I think it’s not

Which is like the default rage bait argument thus why I think your baiting

[golden coral]

With all due respect, and I am not serious, but it does kind of seem that way with how you all jumped me for daring to think that troodon doesn't need to hunt a rex or trike to be a fun playable.

[steep gazelle]

Well, if it's not bait (which I doubt now), you don't even have experience with Troodon to know what it's really like to say that, since you said you haven't played the game in a long time...

[lethal shale]

ehhhh, not really no

you cant disagree with something without having genuine proper knowledge of how it works. until you actually do see troodons in action in your own personal gameplay, how can you truly be so confident on if what youre saying is truly good or not?

[dusky surge]

Oh my god the fog is not the antichrist it did not do that lol

[viscid mica]

You’ve disregarded all points and angles we’ve tried to make

[lethal shale]

sides aswell

[maiden temple]

I'm glad they were given some help tbh, I can still see them enough. I wonder if stegos can

[viscid mica]

Oh god not the troodon antichrist

[golden coral]

And I don't really agree with, or like that philosophy forr the game. Why do I need to defend that when all I've said is literally "I think troodon is excessive, I don't see it needing to punch up that far, and I don't see why it would suck and be terrible if it were limited to diablo or maia".

[cosmic pelican]

The math ☝️ 🤓

[lethal shale]

how long does it take to grow a dibble on average

[golden coral]

And I'm not getting any sort of reasonable answers outside of "troodon would suck if it couldnt do what it currently can"... for reasons

[steep gazelle]

3h

[viscid mica]

2-3 hours

[lethal shale]

then you shouldnt need more than 4 troodons to kill a dibble

[onyx lichen]

The main reason Troodon was a push over was the pounce, thankfully they changed it

[cosmic pelican]

3h 30m on 100% iirc, but I bet you can do it in around 2 hours if youre good at managing diets

[viscid mica]

Equal time trade

[golden coral]

And I've not seen any counterarguments otherwise. Also it wasn't meant as an argument, you've kind of misunderstood. I merely said that I think it's excessive. You all then jumped me for thinking troodon don't need to punch up that far. And I get told that diablo isnt a good enough target, maia isnt, but without any reason, outside of "wouldnt be fun if it cant hunt apexes", and that's as much of a "fair" reason as any of mine.

[dusky surge]

It’s no more excessive than anything else though is my confusion. Everything else can attack a trike with varying levels of success, troodon lying on the “basically impossible” side of the spectrum. The only “advantage” Troo has is that it can apply venom, but its ability to capitalise leaves far more to be desired

[lethal shale]

you grew your dibble for 3 hours and died to four troodons that took 3-4 hours to grow in total

seems fair to me

[golden coral]

You've not provided any. I've asked for clarifications and explanations, got none.

[onyx lichen]

tbf Dibble feels like one of the most vulnerable playables to faster playables

If Solo or very small group

[lethal shale]

not with spar mode, if you know how to maneuver around yourself with spar you can be super tricky to get around

[viscid mica]

It’s more so the kinda balance changes you would need to make to prevent that would directly effect its ability to do anything else

[golden coral]

Yes, I can when it comes to balancing philosophy and all. Which is what this is. I know how the playable work, but I don't need to, to disagree with a mechanic, or the power of something And I've not said anything about how current troodon works. Again, all I've said is "I think troodon being able to punch up that far is excessive". And you all confirmed it can punch up, by jumping me and saying it's fine. If you'd told me "well it can't, you need 10 troodon to hunt a maia" I would have just gone "okay, good".

[viscid mica]

Do you want me to scroll up and get all the messages I sent that you’ve so far ignored

[onyx lichen]

Spar mode isn't great, even a solo Cerato using charge bite is faster than your turn rate

[lethal shale]

still a nuisance to get around but yeah

[onyx lichen]

Now imagine 5 Troodons

That is just a difficult fight

[golden coral]

But it's not. Because you don't personally invest the same amount. If you grew all of them, yes. If not, no. I do not agree with judging the time investment as a group, because I would still only play for an hour for my troodon, while you and the rest would also play that one hour. Compared to the trike playing on its own, for 12 hours. That makes it not equal, because we all, individually played for one hour, then went off and did other stuff, while the trike player is stuck for the next 11 hours too.

[cosmic pelican]

Stand in water that the troodons have to swim in

[golden coral]

And I've not argued that other things aren't excessive, or good. I simply happened to mention troodon, and not omni, or something else. Or cera, you know.

[onyx lichen]

Troodons can still be pretty dangerous if swimming

[steep gazelle]

I don't think so. 1 Diablo can now deal with groups of 4 Cerato thanks to the trash attack, and 2 Diablos are already enough to become unhuntable even for the Mini Rex (Cerato) and the Sniper (Dilo)

[lethal shale]

give troodon dive

[golden coral]

But it didn't take 3-4 hours in total, it took one.

[viscid mica]

It’s split amongst the group thus the GROUP requirement

[golden coral]

Not neccesarily.

[lethal shale]

it swims like a snake with 10/10 form it should dive

[lethal shale]

what??

[golden coral]

Sure, show me where you provided any more of a counterpoint then.

[onyx lichen]

It would get melted if in a thrash attack

[viscid mica]

Well I just did one right above

[golden coral]

But you don't count it as group because you don't actually play as group. You play on your own.

[viscid mica]

???????????

[cosmic pelican]

Worth taking a couple hits for since you can kill a cera in 1 combo now, or at the very least get it to deep red

[golden coral]

Okay. So. If I spend an hour growing a troodon. You spend an hour over at your pc doing the same. Did we now both spend two hours of our life growing troodons, or did we each spend one hour?

Vs the trike that spent 12 hours in front of their pc, growing

[viscid mica]

No you collectively spent 2 hours

[lethal shale]

we each spent one hour, which totals to two hours worth of growtime

[golden coral]

There is no collective to count

[cosmic pelican]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1230243572763332619/1388516687493595207/Untitled_video_Clipchamp_5.mp4?ex=6861446f&is=685ff2ef&hm=a45c56d0e18144e9c30668ac71ac520eb7d3acadb47d33079345a405b7ecd9d0&

[viscid mica]

What’s 1 X 10

[viscid mica]

Brother

[golden coral]

No, because two hours weren't used. We used an hour each, we didn't use two hours.

[viscid mica]

BUT THEY WHERE

[golden coral]

You can't add the time like that, you're ignoring the actual playtime and investment

[steep gazelle]

You need to see for yourself the current state of Troodon instead of just assuming things, even if it's just from YouTube

[viscid mica]

THEY WHERE JUST USED AMONG TWO PEOPLE

[cosmic pelican]

(Standing flip is the same dmg as running flip, so this would work in a diff scenario as well)

[lethal shale]

oh my

[golden coral]

Neither of us played for more than an hour. At the same time. We didn't lose more than one hour of our day.

[viscid mica]

If every person had to individually spend 12 hours on something they should all be able to individually 1v1 another 12 hour thing

[golden coral]

Well then you could have at any point told me "troodon can't actually do what you think it can" and it would have been a very different situation. If that was for me, that is.

[viscid mica]

But 2 hours would still be lost

[golden coral]

Depends on the playable and its design and niche, but yes. But that's why you can't count that for collective, because you didn't individually invest that much. Or well, you can look at it that way, but I do not. I will look at it for what the person actually, themselves, invested in their own time. Nothing more, or less.

And that's not something I think it's worth debating. If you want to add time collectively like that, you can. I will not, because I will respect the actual time taken out of your day that a player puts in.

[viscid mica]

So what should it take 5 omnis to kill a cera?

Cuz they won’t spend as much time

[golden coral]

It should take as many as is reasonable based on the playables and how they work and all

[viscid mica]

I’m so confused rn

[golden coral]

I do not think time should be taken into account in the way you seem to do, precisely because of actual time investment vs "collective"

[lethal shale]

youre not making any sense-

[golden coral]

So I would balance 1v1 for time (and other factors), and for groups, based on other factors than "collective time", that you seem to apply. Especially since balance should always be done for 1v1, for viability and all.

[viscid mica]

So we should just be legacy

[viscid mica]

But time doesn’t quite apply 1v1

[onyx lichen]

Troodon is 1 hit to almost everything, just need 1 correct prediction or good timed alt to kill one

[golden coral]

I mean, it depends on in what manner. Not everything about the game throughout history has been bad, after all.

[viscid mica]

Stego bite does half your health

[lethal shale]

its not about the time they actually took to grow the troodons, but the amount of time the troodon pack is worth

a pack of four troodons would be worth 3-4 hours, and a single dibble would be worth 3

[golden coral]

I would say the same to you when it comes to this I guess.

[cosmic pelican]

Literally everything except hypsi, ptera and juvies lol

[golden coral]

Why not, there you have individual time investment to go by.

[onyx lichen]

Most juvies can melt a Troodon

[golden coral]

Not that it should be the only factor anyway

[viscid mica]

Can a deino beat a stego 1v1 on land

[cosmic pelican]

Not straight up 1 shot but yeah

[viscid mica]

Can a stego beat a deino in water 1v1

They are same time grow after all

[cosmic pelican]

Depends on how big you still classify stuff as "juvies"

[lethal shale]

a 2 minute old trike can kill a one hour long grown troodon in one combo lol

[golden coral]

But the worth, is not something I see as "worth" because it's not your actual, real life time investment. Your actual gameplay time. Which is what I judge by. So I do not add up for "worth" because you can grow that in one hour, together. If you all play at the same time, you grow it in one hour, You've all only lost one hour of your day, at the same time, and can now go out and drink and have fun, while the other player, must keep playing.

[cosmic pelican]

Cuz a 4t trike is still a juvenile according to the tab menu lmao

[onyx lichen]

A fresh spawn Trike can instant kill a Troodon

[golden coral]

No, due to other factors than time. Such as what they're designed to do, and all that.

[viscid mica]

But the collective investment is equal

[viscid mica]

EXACTLY EXACTLY

[golden coral]

Except I do not see any collective investment. You all played at the same time, during the same one hour. You've invested one hour all together.

[onyx lichen]

The game considers most playables a Juvie until they reach half their max weight

[viscid mica]

So they are all the same people now?

[golden coral]

It doesn't... somehow "stack" because you're five people doing it at the same time. The result does, not the time invested. But the result does so due to multiple people doing it. Not the time.

[viscid mica]

It’s still 10 people

For 1 hour

[golden coral]

No, but, you're doing it at the same time. You're using the same time. You only work for an hour.

[onyx lichen]

10 Troodons is 600kg

[viscid mica]

1x 10 is what? 1?

[golden coral]

Yes, but those 10 people have not worked for 10 hours.

[viscid mica]

I mentioned that earlier

[golden coral]

They've worked for 1 hour. That's the actual time investment.

[viscid mica]

????????

[lethal shale]

this is giving me a headache to read

[golden coral]

If you work with others, and you work three hours. And there's five of you. Do you go home and say you've worked for three hours, or fifteen hours?

[viscid mica]

I don’t wanna be mean cuz I think bro genuinely doesn’t get it but it’s getting hard

Super hold me back hold me back

[golden coral]

10. But that's not how time works or stacks up.

[cosmic pelican]

Me at least, only consider them juvis while they have the same pattern as they did when they spawned, same with subadults.
It gets really funky otherwise

[golden coral]

I mean, I'm not sure how it's difficult to understand that I look at the actual time investment per person, nothing more or less.

[viscid mica]

If 10 people worked at a job for 1 hour each getting paid 10$ per hour how much money was the payroll

[long matrix]

eggs na2?

[golden coral]

I get that you people don't, that's fine. But I can understand how you think, and count. Somehow you can't understand the other way around?

[lethal shale]

thats just a bad way to put it

you need to calculate the time the troodons are collectively worth

[golden coral]

Did you get the full payroll of the whole work?

[viscid mica]

It’s really easy man

[golden coral]

I don't think so at all, no. Clearly you do, that's fine. But at least it'd be nice if you somehow grasped that I am just looking at the actual time investment you had.

[golden coral]

Yes, it is. We're looking at it in two different ways.

[cosmic pelican]

Go to https://discord.com/channels/401464048610312193/543084446853890049

[onyx lichen]

Really coming up with different scenarios that fit the situation

[maiden temple]

They had to gather to take you out, you're that big strong. Take it as a compliment lol.
You're meant to grow, nest and die :c

[viscid mica]

What’s 10x1x10

[lethal shale]

then youre just counting a single troodon's time spent, as if the dibble was fighting against ONE single troodon

[golden coral]

Also a payroll, or well, money is an actual amount of things. Can't "stack" like time can, in a sense

[onyx lichen]

100

[long matrix]

uy

[viscid mica]

This guy is clearly dodging the answer

It’s rage bait it has to be rage bait

[onyx lichen]

I answered it

[viscid mica]

Not you him

[onyx lichen]

Oh

[golden coral]

Yes, when it comes to how I approach this. Because it's the actual investment, and the amount of x playables for the fight, should be based on other factors than time.

[golden coral]

I'm not dodging it. You just don't seem to understand.

[viscid mica]

That you can’t do basic math?

Or sorry what don’t I understand

[golden coral]

... that you don't seem to understand that you're an individual

[viscid mica]

Ok and?

[golden coral]

If you sleep for five hours, and I sleep in the other bed, at the same time, for five hours. Would you then tell someone else "I slept for ten hours straight" after that nap?

[viscid mica]

10 individuals creates a collective

And the collective effort produces the results

And the result of the collective effort is equal to the effort of the collective

My point still stands

[vale brook]

hes literally right

[golden coral]

But the individual is what I meausre, not the "collective", because the individual is the actual person affected.

Now why don't you answer my question?

Did you sleep for 5, or 10 hours?

[viscid mica]

I’d say we slept a collective total of 10

[golden coral]

How long did you sleep?

[vale brook]

"whats 2+2?"
"4"
"WOWWW HES RAGEBAITING"

what did i walk into 😭

[onyx lichen]

Let me try something

[viscid mica]

Me individually 5

[golden coral]

Bravo

[viscid mica]

No scroll up further you goob

[golden coral]

And I count the individual. Good, now you understand how I see it.

[cosmic pelican]

Leave while you can

[viscid mica]

So you ignore the rest of the group

[lethal shale]

okay but erik, what youre saying counts towards one single individual as opposed to the entire collective done

thats what you need to do when youre counting a fight against multiple-

[viscid mica]

That guy isn’t 1v1ing you thou

[golden coral]

@vale brookWe simply disagree on how to count time invested.

[golden coral]

No, but I said that time should not be factor for the group balance, precisely because of this individual, actual time investment, vs your collective "investment"

[onyx lichen]

A Venom pounce at most does 100 dmg, Dibble has 3K so it would take around 35 pounces to kill a Dibble, 5 Troodons would need 7 pounces each to kill it

[golden coral]

So yes, I look at the actual time, moments out of your life. Not someone elses moments out of their life, that they took at the same time.

[viscid mica]

So troodon should be a 12 hour grow individually

[lethal shale]

105 actually

[vale brook]

oh it's a troodon discussion

[viscid mica]

[golden coral]

No? How did you conclude that

[vale brook]

troodon is fine where it is lol

[onyx lichen]

35 still sounds accurate

[lethal shale]

they want 10 troodons minimum to kill a DIBBLE.

[onyx lichen]

Maybe 33 or 34

[vale brook]

5 and i'll call it a day

[golden coral]

This I disagree with, but apparently it must be able to do what it does, or it would suck

[viscid mica]

How did you conclude that 10 people working for 1 hour each isn’t 10 hours total

[onyx lichen]

Wait I got a math idea to solve this

[lethal shale]

yeah- 4-5 sounds reasonable if the troodons are coordinated

[vale brook]

considering it was expressly designed to fit this niche, yes

[golden coral]

That's not at all what I've said, but sure. I've said I think diablo is a reasonable upper end for a troodon pack. Not a "minimum of must", but like. 7-8 then. And maia would be fine too, since it's a less combat capable thing, even if it is larger, for a full pack.

[viscid mica]

He doesn’t think it should be possible for troodons to punch past Maia

[golden coral]

I must have clearly missed something if troodon must be able to punch up that massively high to fit it's niche of punch up, venomous night time hunter.

[vale brook]

you did

[viscid mica]

Kek

[lethal shale]

erik the way youre acting makes it sound like its currently easy for troodons to take on a fg trike when it takes hours of continuous dedication and fighting

[golden coral]

Mind telling me what I missed then?

[vale brook]

because troodon has always been "night pack hunter than punches extremely far up"

and we knew about that before troodon even dropped

[golden coral]

Not at all. You seem to have all decided that because I think troodon doesn't need to punch that far up, I mean a bunch of other things that I've never said.

[lethal shale]

its all theyve ever shown us in its trailer, concept art and teasers

[viscid mica]

I’m still not convinced this isn’t rage bait imma be real

[golden coral]

Right, but "far up", far as I'm concerned, is around maia. Not more.

[vale brook]

if you think it punches up too far, thats one thing

but thats fundementally disagreeing with what the character is

[vale brook]

and realistically, thats its max anyway lol

[golden coral]

That's because you can't fathom that I simply disagree with the design philosophy and balance

[dusky surge]

It’s not that massive though, because once it reaches sizes like trike, it simply is well beyond the scope of reason, much like how a trike is well beyond the scope of reason for a herrera

This is what I don’t understand. You frame it as if it is surefire that the troodon will acquire that kill, but to acquire that kill is basically moving mountains.

[vale brook]

unless you have like 9 troodons who are extremely coordinated, in which case stego becomes a decent option

[onyx lichen]

Troodon does at most 75% more damage than it weighs

[golden coral]

Right, but I got jumped for saying "I think it's excessive for troodon to hunt trike and rex" and told if it cant do that, it just sucks as a playable.

[strong crypt]

Tbh finding a 10pack of troodons is really har aswell

[lethal shale]

practically, yeah sure

but if a pack is really dedicated, coordinated and skilled enough to be able to take on even larger game, then thats good for them and they should be rewarded for playing troodon as intended; in a determined coordinated pack

[viscid mica]

Your right I can’t as your fundamentally disagreeing with the entire games balancing scheme

[golden coral]

I don't think it is. We've seen it hunt teno, so not sure where this "must punch up further" comes from.

[vale brook]

.... so entire argument is pointless to begin with

[viscid mica]

10 pack that doesn’t kill eachother 90% of the time

[vale brook]

hunting 1.8t carno is a start

[onyx lichen]

Biggest thing on Troodon's diet is Stego

[dusky surge]

Anything can hunt anything, it comes down to the scope of reason.

[strong crypt]

Yea

[golden coral]

Kind of. I can't really help that everyone jumped me for disagreeing with troodon being an apex hunter, or that it's needed for it's niche or to be a fun playable. It wasn't even meant to be an argument, just me daring to have that opinion really.

[viscid mica]

If I’ve understood any of this it’s that he doesn’t like the SCOPE of reason

[vale brook]

i dont think a single person has actually said it needs to be an apex hunter though

[onyx lichen]

I got a good math thing to solve this issue

[golden coral]

Yeah, Im fine with teno, and carno, and as I said , dibble, maybe even maia, in a proper full pack.

But that wasn't good enough apparently

[vale brook]

10 troodons for a diablo is kinda crazy

[dusky surge]

Reasonably speaking, venom or not, troodon cannot hunt trike realistically. Removing the venom only acts to make Troodon feel worse, Trike remains a lofty mountain that takes copious effort to climb regardless

[strong crypt]

I think troodons is good now tho. Ive been in packs killing FG ceras before all these positive changes

[vale brook]

like 5 coordinated troodons should have a pretty good chance at the dibble at that point lol

[viscid mica]

NO no no

Don’t twist it we jumped on you because your reason doesn’t make sense and you think 10 people spending 1 hour each to collectively achieve something doesn’t quantify 10 hours worth of peoples time

[golden coral]

I don't think it is, I think it's about a good size for a full pack to aim for honestly. It's still 5x the weight of a full 10 pack. That's decent punching up far as I'm concerned. But apparently that opinion is horrible and evil or some such.

[golden coral]

Well, juvies are a thing to hunt.

[viscid mica]

3 good troodons is more than enough

[golden coral]

Not really, just some minor parts of it.

[steep gazelle]

1 If the dibble is bad

[golden coral]

No, you jumped on me because I said that I think troodon is excessive, and you're not happy with my reason, despite having no better reason yourself. And no, I do not think you should count time like that, at all.

[viscid mica]

The hour equivalent trade has been something everyone in balancing feedback has used as frame of reference for ages

[onyx lichen]

I got a math thing that might solve this
Stego is 6T so 6,000 HP and is the biggest thing on Troodon's diet, Troodon group limit is 10 so 600KG combined, so 10 Troodons (600KG) should be able to kill a Stego (6,000KG), by this logic 5 Troodons (300KG) should be able to kill a Dibble (3,000KG)

[lethal shale]

4 skilled troodons should be enough to take down a dibble

and i mean it when i say skillled

[viscid mica]

Let alone the devs design clearly supporting it

[vale brook]

too little!!!!

need 10 troodon because weight!!

[golden coral]

Doesn't mean it's good or that I agree with it. But it's also just one minor part of balancing and all, far from everything. And it works 1v1, which is fine.

[amber wharf]

only to die to latency 😎 LETS GO BABY!

[viscid mica]

We’ve given multiple reasons but aight

[dusky surge]

See, like, why though?

If it goes after an adult, it’s probably dead, and it’d be a nightmare, but it doesn’t feel like you spent stamina to do literally nothing. That just creates a horrible game feel on troodon that will dissuade anyone to play it. Sure, pounce only costs 2.5% stam, but that still feels awful if you latch onto a larger creature only to watch it do NOTHING

[golden coral]

If it's reasonable that they can punch up to 10x their combined weight, yes. I find that to be excessive, and think 5x or so would be plenty enough to still make a powerful, enjoyable night time punch up critter, without making it too much. And that, is apparently horrible to think.

[viscid mica]

Imma stop bro is like I said rage baiting or something just a wee goobish and Id prefer to remain reasonably amicable

[golden coral]

You literally haven't.

[dusky surge]

Troodon is already extremely time-sensitive in its hunting too. Envenomate in the correct time window or lose your progress

[golden coral]

You complain about my reasons, but you've not given any other that isn't just "I feel this way instead"

[onyx lichen]

wdym?

[viscid mica]

You write off any and all arguments we made just cuz you dont agree but aight I digress

[golden coral]

Shouldn't weight matter quite a bit?

[steep gazelle]

Play the game or watch a video on YouTube and you will see how wrong you are

[amber wharf]

Troodon venom only works in a certain time frame window. It's not as laid back as dilo is. You have to consistently apply venom in certain time frames or the venom stage will drop completely or go down a lvl.

[strong crypt]

What was begining in this argument?

[onyx lichen]

No it won't

[golden coral]

I'm not understand why not though? Why do you feel the need to go for that large critter, or otherwise your playable suck and is no fun?

[viscid mica]

Did he ever say when he last played

[golden coral]

I dared to have an opinion that troodon was excessive in its punch up ability.

[golden coral]

Then why are you all arguing that I am wrong and that troodon is fine, doing what it, presumably can't do anyway?

[strong crypt]

Have you played troodon?

[amber wharf]

Ok let me rephrase that. They can be invenomaated but it does no dmg like dilo venom does with clones, if you want to be technical. Troodons have to keep applying venom to actually do dmg. Last stage does the most dmg.

[onyx lichen]

Troodon's venom works like this, after you pounce something you need to wait for a que to apply more venom, if you pounce too early the timer to the next stage resets, it doesn't go down a level

[golden coral]

I do not. I've asked for examples, I only get the same in return. "It's fine this way. It should do this or it'd feel bad" and so on. How are those any better reasons?

[amber wharf]

If you know how it works, can I ask why you were asking?? 😂

[onyx lichen]

At stage 3 pounce as much as possible to do much damage and add a tiny bit more time

[viscid mica]

He thinks troodons shouldn’t be capable of hunting anything bigger than a Maia

[vale brook]

we should remove herrera climbing too

[onyx lichen]

Because it sounded wrong

[viscid mica]

Uh huh

[vale brook]

why? why do you feel the need to climb? would your character suck without it?

[dusky surge]

Because, hypothetically, I have a swarm behind me and we as a collective unit are hungry.

Again, realistically, they WILL NOT DIE, irregardless of the presence of venom. The only determining difference is that one feels far less satisfying and less enjoyable to engage with, and the other at least is fun before your pack universally gets sent to the spawn select

[viscid mica]

The message logs exist keep playing the fool it’s all good

[amber wharf]

😔 me when my herrera kills a fg diablo and the diablo says unfair (he fell off a cliff and broke his leg chasing me then sat under the tree i was in only to get oneshot)

[lethal shale]

kinda weird how you complain about troodons ability to punch up but not herrera..

we've never really seen anything about herrera punching up as far as it can, biggest thing we saw it eat in its art was a dryo

[steep gazelle]

Just watch videos on YouTube and your idea about troodon will change completely. Everything you're saying is from the point of view of someone who hasn't played the game in a year, and that's where the problem lies...

[golden coral]

Not for a long while. But if my claim that "troodon being able to punch up to way above maia size is excessive" is wrong because troodon can't do that anyway. Then why did everyone jump me and tell me it's fine, and that I am wrong for thinking troodon doesn't need to, or should, punch up that far. If it can't do that anyway, then why not just tell me in the first place "it can't, it can only hunt up to maia" and it'd never have been an entire discussion about it.

[vale brook]

[golden coral]

So, troodon is only enjoyable if you can punch up to a certain level, or what do you mean?

[amber wharf]

I wish I recorded it. It was so funny and tragic for the diablo. 😭

[golden coral]

And you'd not get satisfied by a teno, or dibble, or even maia?

[amber wharf]

no one wants to play a dino that can only kill dryos or small things. you know why? because they don't exist. :))))

[vale brook]

no i just dont see why herrera needs to climb

[golden coral]

Then why not show me.

[vale brook]

just give it a super high jump to get onto cliffs

[strong crypt]

I think it depends how many u have right. For example bees can kill human even tho u way more than their hive

[amber wharf]

it's those DEATH bees yknw

[viscid mica]

You read and reacted to them I’m not gonna reping you for stuff you’ll be pretending doesn’t exist 10 seconds later

[golden coral]

And I don't see why troodon needs venom at all. If you want to compare abiltiies. Otherwise we could go "I don't see why herrera needs to drop from a height enough to kill a rex". That'd be more accurate to what I'm trying to say.

[dusky surge]

I’d feel really bad if I spent stamina to do nothing, yes

[steep gazelle]

What do you mean? Unfair! Herrera should break his leg by jumping on a dibble 😭😭

[golden coral]

If herrera could punch up to much above carno, I would.

[amber wharf]

😈 neyehyahhaha

[lethal shale]

they can already kill tenos, dibbles and heck ive even seen stegos fall victim to herrera

[viscid mica]

It can

A group can effectively bleed anything to death with enough trees to use

[viscid mica]

2x headshot go brrrrr

[vale brook]

"i dont see why herrera needs to drop from a height enough to kill a rex" and "troodons shouldnt hunt apexes" is actually an amazing analogy because neither is happening lol

[lethal shale]

1400 damage per fall 🔥

[golden coral]

No, it's not, because it's not even based on playing the game. It's based on what I think is reasonable for punch up. Again, if you want to say that troodons require a full pack to hunt a maia, a diablo is a very difficult hunt requiring almost a full pack, and you can't punch above that? If that is the case in the game currently, just tell me so and well, where's the issue? Is that the case in the game currently?

[strong crypt]

And isle isnt 100% realistic so 10 troodons is really hard to find and also player skill varies. IF good troodon attack bad trike, well that is not going well for trike

[amber wharf]

even w/ out trees, i mean, ive seen herreras take turns once a stego leaves trees - going in for bites and not letting it heal bleed LOL

[golden coral]

If you say so.

[viscid mica]

[golden coral]

But you're spending stamina for them? Or would it feel better then if you just couldn't pounce? I'm not sure I understand the point there.

[viscid mica]

Yup

[amber wharf]

i love being a silly little tree climbing herrera 😈 killing all them babies

[vale brook]

yes? most things larger than maia/diablo a) have too much health to reasonably be widdled down and b) likely have regen that just outheals the troodons (trike)

[viscid mica]

I mean effectively speaking with enough skill and numbers anything can punch up to apex’s

[steep gazelle]

Yes, you do. There's no way you can say or point something out if you don't even know what it's like nowadays xd

[golden coral]

Then maybe if it was a herrera discussion, I should keep that in mind, beause if so, then yes, that might also be a bit excessive.

[amber wharf]

and, realistically, maia has a ton of stamina and is fast. a lot of stuff cant keep up with it.. but troodon would be able to.

[viscid mica]

[amber wharf]

pachy needs nerf!!!(!!!))

[vale brook]

even troodon can barely keep up with maia lol

[viscid mica]

No troodon can’t if a Maia decides to leave you aren’t catching it Maia are fast as if not faster than carno

[vale brook]

you can literally just shift + w from most troodons and win because their running stam is trash

[golden coral]

Then if someone had simply pointed that out, I would not have had to deal with all of this for far too long. Oh, and also, then why is everyone angry at me for thinking that's fine then. I got yelled at for thinking that should be the limit. But if it already is in game, then why is my opinion apparently so bad.

[viscid mica]

Burn this before I burn you

[amber wharf]

actually so unfortunate. 😔 i want stuff to fight me as maia. too fast.

[steep gazelle]

Pachy was Nerfed in the last update 😭😭😭 now he takes even more damage from bleed

[viscid mica]

You pick who you fight

[amber wharf]

WHY ARE THEY CONTINUING TO RUIN PACHY?

[amber wharf]

i know i'm just teasing 😭

[vale brook]

because you dont need a full pack for it currently, like youre suggesting

[viscid mica]

What…..

[golden coral]

Yes of course I can, if it's basic balancing philosophy or some such. I don't need to know that, to have an idea of how for example, I would balance a new playable, or a certain mechanic, or just the philosphy in general. Such as my more limited punch up ability approach, which applies to all playables.

[strong crypt]

Personal opinion tho getting jumped by 10 troodons is awesome feeling tbh. Its so rare and cool ngl

[amber wharf]

actual pachy haters. must make new FEEDBACK POST !!!

[viscid mica]

Sorry still trying to comprehend if Erik is rage bait or not I can’t decide

[amber wharf]

its like seeing a dryo. only once. never again.

[strong crypt]

Yeah xD

[viscid mica]

Ziowar is typing……